From nobody Mon Dec 1 14:32:53 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C14AE1A9136 for ; Mon, 1 Dec 2014 14:32:50 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.112 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.112 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_20=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, GB_I_INVITATION=-2, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pEz4NMh3qMi5 for ; Mon, 1 Dec 2014 14:32:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from dublin.packetizer.com (dublin.packetizer.com [75.101.130.125]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 317EA1ACD2B for ; Mon, 1 Dec 2014 14:32:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.20] (cpe-098-027-048-015.nc.res.rr.com [98.27.48.15]) (authenticated bits=0) by dublin.packetizer.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id sB1MWT4f007547 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 1 Dec 2014 17:32:30 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=packetizer.com; s=dublin; t=1417473150; bh=iN95e9rLQHuccl4d6aDTR5ojH7nRqpdA3FEBzZJ4px8=; h=From:To:Subject:Date:Message-Id:Reply-To:Mime-Version: Content-Type; b=LmkdBm868FM4rKnDphBZ5attwMEO4Qx+M4/5Sxi7WhmjFMvUNrdwaIIMi9zcczkd5 BXqyd7sygpr2DpChsS2mCPOWLsWoS1ZL4LU1TvIytIr5t0h03L1UfUqlSIYtEl4HSs lE1v0yU3/ao1UL+WYtBs5ya271KAAIy1pFiirBI4= From: "Paul E. Jones" To: "avt@ietf.org WG" Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2014 22:32:32 +0000 Message-Id: User-Agent: eM_Client/6.0.21034.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------=_MBF13D5B42-1AFE-4C3F-B4D1-D149BDEE55DB" Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/avt/BZEQidjCnO2bZyEOM7U6jsTSvYo Subject: [AVTCORE] Conference call on draft-jones-avtcore-private-media-reqts-00 X-BeenThere: avt@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: "Paul E. Jones" List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2014 22:32:51 -0000 --------=_MBF13D5B42-1AFE-4C3F-B4D1-D149BDEE55DB Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Folks, I'd like to have a call next week with folks to discuss changes we=20 should make to draft-jones-avtcore-private-media-reqts-00. I've polled a few folks and it seems next December 9, 2014 at 12PM US ET= =20 / 9AM US PT / 6PM CET works best for most folks. I've set up a WebEx=20 meeting for the call. If you would like to be added to the invitation,=20 please let me know. Paul --------=_MBF13D5B42-1AFE-4C3F-B4D1-D149BDEE55DB Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Folks,
 
I'd like to have a call next week with folks to discuss changes we = should make to draft-jones-avtcore-private-media-reqts-00.
 
I've polled a few folks and it seems next December 9, 2014&n= bsp;at 12PM US ET / 9AM US PT / 6PM CET works best for most folks. = I've set up a WebEx meeting for the call.  If you would like to be= added to the invitation, please let me know.
 
Paul
 
--------=_MBF13D5B42-1AFE-4C3F-B4D1-D149BDEE55DB-- From nobody Wed Dec 3 16:04:16 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0CBF41ACF69 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 2014 16:04:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.211 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.211 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0V9FwHtcWDOF for ; Wed, 3 Dec 2014 16:04:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from aer-iport-4.cisco.com (aer-iport-4.cisco.com [173.38.203.54]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B27D61A6F2A for ; Wed, 3 Dec 2014 16:04:10 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=795; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1417651450; x=1418861050; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc: content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=1VgARy3UgDOnRBnESRqd1KnYV4esXQSAJtPZD7ESqbI=; b=FRB+clhpdAk2oIM1jec1TU4j2Wb7TPTrDJjzWL8geWsjK5gf2eHNnMrL VXkfapKxUh8Qn7DiwEYoqIfv/mog9S3oXm1m6vOV+FQoET/gKSo3vOBFD lke+mop/zsCoe+JLZ2rNI66ecMQfMfE7Pm9tAtbeYscUAwZnjM7Zq7Zjr Q=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AqwEAEakf1StJssW/2dsb2JhbABag1hYxkQKhhcCgSsBAQEBAX2EAwEBAwEBAQEaHT8FCwsOOCEGMAYTiCkDCQkN0F8NhV4BAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQETBI4wgVQRAR0zB4MkgR4FilKOFYFygSKDLYJMhl6GHYQZHjABgQuBOQEBAQ X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.07,511,1413244800"; d="scan'208";a="255548992" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-3.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP; 04 Dec 2014 00:04:06 +0000 Received: from [10.24.69.20] ([10.24.69.20]) by aer-core-3.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id sB403wZp010549 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Thu, 4 Dec 2014 00:04:01 GMT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.3 \(1878.6\)) From: =?utf-8?Q?=F0=9F=94=93Dan_Wing?= In-Reply-To: <03bc01d00080$ac035da0$040a18e0$@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2014 16:03:58 -0800 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <85044C72-7CEB-44F1-987C-AADB16FBCCB0@cisco.com> References: <03bc01d00080$ac035da0$040a18e0$@gmail.com> To: Roni Even X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1878.6) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/avt/ZqA_4PKPYyw4mUzwjZu6kHm-N9w Cc: Magnus Westerlund , avt@ietf.org Subject: Re: [AVTCORE] Call for adopting draft-singh-avtcore-mprtp-10 X-BeenThere: avt@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2014 00:04:13 -0000 Aloha (just returned from my vacation), I support adoption of MPRTP. The concept was great with -00, and the = document has matured significantly in the meantime. -d On Nov 14, 2014, at 7:02 PM, Roni Even wrote: > Hi, > This is a call to adopt draft-singh-avtcore-mprtp-10 to address the = new milestone > Nov 2015 - Submit Multipath RTP as experimental RFC > =20 > There was already support to adopt it but this email is to verify the = support > =20 > Please provide any view to the list by November 25th > =20 > =20 > Thanks > Roni Even > AVTcore co-chair > =20 > =20 > =20 > =20 > _______________________________________________ > Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance > avt@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avt From nobody Thu Dec 4 04:53:04 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C28701A0393; Thu, 4 Dec 2014 04:53:02 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id W4GKMerDlpRQ; Thu, 4 Dec 2014 04:53:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59F031A0378; Thu, 4 Dec 2014 04:53:00 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: i-d-announce@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 5.7.4 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <20141204125300.11524.67488.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2014 04:53:00 -0800 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/avt/4y4coG9ZE1SIY33u7IY3PYECK3s Cc: avt@ietf.org Subject: [AVTCORE] I-D Action: draft-ietf-avtcore-rtp-circuit-breakers-08.txt X-BeenThere: avt@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2014 12:53:02 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance Working Group of the IETF. Title : Multimedia Congestion Control: Circuit Breakers for Unicast RTP Sessions Authors : Colin Perkins Varun Singh Filename : draft-ietf-avtcore-rtp-circuit-breakers-08.txt Pages : 21 Date : 2014-12-04 Abstract: The Real-time Transport Protocol (RTP) is widely used in telephony, video conferencing, and telepresence applications. Such applications are often run on best-effort UDP/IP networks. If congestion control is not implemented in the applications, then network congestion will deteriorate the user's multimedia experience. This document does not propose a congestion control algorithm; instead, it defines a minimal set of RTP "circuit-breakers". Circuit-breakers are conditions under which an RTP sender needs to stop transmitting media data in order to protect the network from excessive congestion. It is expected that, in the absence of severe congestion, all RTP applications running on best-effort IP networks will be able to run without triggering these circuit breakers. Any future RTP congestion control specification will be expected to operate within the constraints defined by these circuit breakers. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-avtcore-rtp-circuit-breakers/ There's also a htmlized version available at: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-avtcore-rtp-circuit-breakers-08 A diff from the previous version is available at: http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-avtcore-rtp-circuit-breakers-08 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Thu Dec 4 04:59:38 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 371C21A07BC for ; Thu, 4 Dec 2014 04:59:37 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6QtkhU2nsnyw for ; Thu, 4 Dec 2014 04:59:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from balrog.mythic-beasts.com (balrog.mythic-beasts.com [IPv6:2a00:1098:0:82:1000:0:2:1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 829E31A03E1 for ; Thu, 4 Dec 2014 04:59:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from [130.209.247.112] (port=61257 helo=mangole.dcs.gla.ac.uk) by balrog.mythic-beasts.com with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1XwW0L-0004tv-KS for avt@ietf.org; Thu, 04 Dec 2014 12:59:33 +0000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.3 \(1878.6\)) From: Colin Perkins In-Reply-To: <20141204125300.11524.67488.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2014 12:59:30 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <652FEF9E-0516-4124-978D-D62AEED5426D@csperkins.org> References: <20141204125300.11524.67488.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> To: "avt@ietf.org WG" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1878.6) X-BlackCat-Spam-Score: -28 X-Mythic-Debug: Threshold = On = Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/avt/_ZnIRGfRjPnmj0xDZV730IYO_u4 Subject: Re: [AVTCORE] I-D Action: draft-ietf-avtcore-rtp-circuit-breakers-08.txt X-BeenThere: avt@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2014 12:59:37 -0000 This is a minor update. The changes in this version are: - In section 4.3, attempt to clarify behaviour of the congestion circuit = breaker, especially around the factor-of-ten reduction. - In section 9, clarify behaviour regarding layered flows and bundled = media within a single RTP session. Colin On 4 Dec 2014, at 12:53, Internet-Drafts@ietf.org wrote: > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts = directories. > This draft is a work item of the Audio/Video Transport Core = Maintenance Working Group of the IETF. >=20 > Title : Multimedia Congestion Control: Circuit = Breakers for Unicast RTP Sessions > Authors : Colin Perkins > Varun Singh > Filename : draft-ietf-avtcore-rtp-circuit-breakers-08.txt > Pages : 21 > Date : 2014-12-04 >=20 > Abstract: > The Real-time Transport Protocol (RTP) is widely used in telephony, > video conferencing, and telepresence applications. Such = applications > are often run on best-effort UDP/IP networks. If congestion control > is not implemented in the applications, then network congestion will > deteriorate the user's multimedia experience. This document does = not > propose a congestion control algorithm; instead, it defines a = minimal > set of RTP "circuit-breakers". Circuit-breakers are conditions = under > which an RTP sender needs to stop transmitting media data in order = to > protect the network from excessive congestion. It is expected that, > in the absence of severe congestion, all RTP applications running on > best-effort IP networks will be able to run without triggering these > circuit breakers. Any future RTP congestion control specification > will be expected to operate within the constraints defined by these > circuit breakers. >=20 >=20 > The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: > = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-avtcore-rtp-circuit-breakers/ >=20 > There's also a htmlized version available at: > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-avtcore-rtp-circuit-breakers-08 >=20 > A diff from the previous version is available at: > = http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-avtcore-rtp-circuit-breakers= -08 --=20 Colin Perkins https://csperkins.org/ From nobody Thu Dec 4 09:48:06 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39C731A6F58 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 2014 17:48:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.912 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.912 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5wS-ylkLUFC2 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 2014 17:48:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from rfc-editor.org (rfc-editor.org [4.31.198.49]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5D771A00D8 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 2014 17:48:09 -0800 (PST) Received: by rfc-editor.org (Postfix, from userid 30) id 6282D181CD3; Wed, 3 Dec 2014 17:47:37 -0800 (PST) To: schulzrinne@cs.columbia.edu, casner@acm.org, ronf@bluecoat.com, van@packetdesign.com, rlb@ipv.sx, alissa@cooperw.in, keith.drage@alcatel-lucent.com, roni.even@mail01.huawei.com X-PHP-Originating-Script: 6000:errata_mail_lib.php From: RFC Errata System Message-Id: <20141204014737.6282D181CD3@rfc-editor.org> Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2014 17:47:37 -0800 (PST) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/avt/fZuxBy9-CRrYv6YJaOxObOnAHjk X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 04 Dec 2014 09:48:04 -0800 Cc: juliusfriedman@gmail.com, avt@ietf.org, rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org Subject: [AVTCORE] [Technical Errata Reported] RFC3550 (4192) X-BeenThere: avt@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2014 01:48:13 -0000 The following errata report has been submitted for RFC3550, "RTP: A Transport Protocol for Real-Time Applications". -------------------------------------- You may review the report below and at: http://www.rfc-editor.org/errata_search.php?rfc=3550&eid=4192 -------------------------------------- Type: Technical Reported by: Julius Friedman Section: 6.4.1 Original Text ------------- sender's octet count: 32 bits The total number of payload octets (i.e., not including header or padding) transmitted in RTP data packets by the sender since starting transmission up until the time this SR packet was generated. The count SHOULD be reset if the sender changes its SSRC identifier. This field can be used to estimate the average payload data rate. Corrected Text -------------- sender's octet count: 32 bits The total number of payload octets transmitted in RTP data packets by the sender since starting transmission up until the time this SR packet was generated. The count SHOULD be reset if the sender changes its SSRC identifier. This field can be used to estimate the average payload data rate. Notes ----- Where as payload octets is defined as the total number of data octets contained in a Rtp Packet minus the 12 Header octets for Rtp Packets. Padding octets as well as octets which occur in the contributing source list should also be included as they may differ on a per packet basis and would make the total calculation invalid. During TCP communication any application layer header should NOT be included in the total bytes count when including the header length. Any Rtcp packet counters should include the total length of the packet (header, padding and any other data). Instructions: ------------- This erratum is currently posted as "Reported". If necessary, please use "Reply All" to discuss whether it should be verified or rejected. When a decision is reached, the verifying party (IESG) can log in to change the status and edit the report, if necessary. -------------------------------------- RFC3550 (draft-ietf-avt-rtp-new-12) -------------------------------------- Title : RTP: A Transport Protocol for Real-Time Applications Publication Date : July 2003 Author(s) : H. Schulzrinne, S. Casner, R. Frederick, V. Jacobson Category : DRAFT STANDARD Source : Audio/Video Transport Area : Real-time Applications and Infrastructure Stream : IETF Verifying Party : IESG From nobody Fri Dec 5 11:01:49 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D770F1AD57C for ; Fri, 5 Dec 2014 11:01:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id X7nZUeuds_zL for ; Fri, 5 Dec 2014 11:01:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pd0-x232.google.com (mail-pd0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c02::232]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 19F311AD56D for ; Fri, 5 Dec 2014 11:01:45 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pd0-f178.google.com with SMTP id g10so1225969pdj.9 for ; Fri, 05 Dec 2014 11:01:44 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=JF7qGjHtJHmqQArbj2gADHXjlzERzqeOTB2dVuJL1mg=; b=PQvVN67UL7CZwKdMDgw31yFrQ1xPk3rCFaFHnBuKujpd9LOI8tbX0nz1SWuQ8RKe1D YKUbZ2uFTQsT4xTuJczZrUd/FMOJLJM4DnhPWyQ4LJ6GG4c+N20eTrgRVBzXeQkToza+ dy9EfT5gw7nVwoH9H0DUEXCL6KR8BTxTNonEVpXSIxhrs2y68wd70Or2Fjd2bELbbaPc BOHXOzVQ4ezmCHlX+6mvpuHuTrs97Hip4VeCE4R4sWuENx6u91k0q+vvZtTZ1650S7e9 14rsiRZDQWxBzRUi+nvGf5rZyWzjt4KEAH5dVDPWdAhe6sIxcPLFmavgafKp1c5K1B+i lJNQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.70.33.106 with SMTP id q10mr30709177pdi.120.1417806104336; Fri, 05 Dec 2014 11:01:44 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.70.52.8 with HTTP; Fri, 5 Dec 2014 11:01:44 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.70.52.8 with HTTP; Fri, 5 Dec 2014 11:01:44 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <20141204014737.6282D181CD3@rfc-editor.org> Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2014 14:01:44 -0500 Message-ID: From: Julius Friedman To: Stephen Casner , avt@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7bfd0836359fff05097cb5c9 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/avt/QOirmi3_jtrHRtkwC-lS2ePZIUA Subject: Re: [AVTCORE] [Technical Errata Reported] RFC3550 (4192) X-BeenThere: avt@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2014 19:01:48 -0000 --047d7bfd0836359fff05097cb5c9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Thanks for your response. I do believe your incorect and plese keep in mind that it is also a security issues to indicate what part of the payload changes due to encryption. The indication does not change only satisfied the required information without bias for padding. The data is more accurate as I indicated changed because the parties will be able to track padding if required in their own counters and if they dont they will never calculate more or less bytes then actually sent which is possible with the current text if the payload required padding. Please also keep in mind that if I didn't set padding because it wasn't required then no change is required also if I forgot to set padding and thus proves itself the change is warranted. Individuals who choose to follow this old way of thinking invite themselves to security issues and overhead of calculating redundantly included information as the length of a rtcp packet already included padding for that reason. Think carefully about the above scenarios and also that the end rate you specify would actually be more accurate. I have also submitted erratta for rfc2435 and rfc2326 have they been addressed? Sincerely, Julius Friedman On Dec 5, 2014 1:40 PM, "Stephen Casner" wrote: > I do not agree with the proposed change. As stated in the referenced > text, the sender's octet count was intended to be used to estimate the > average payload data rate. This is about the payload only, without > any consideration of packetization. > > -- Steve > > On Wed, 3 Dec 2014, RFC Errata System wrote: > > > The following errata report has been submitted for RFC3550, > > "RTP: A Transport Protocol for Real-Time Applications". > > > > -------------------------------------- > > You may review the report below and at: > > http://www.rfc-editor.org/errata_search.php?rfc=3550&eid=4192 > > > > -------------------------------------- > > Type: Technical > > Reported by: Julius Friedman > > > > Section: 6.4.1 > > > > Original Text > > ------------- > > sender's octet count: 32 bits > > The total number of payload octets (i.e., not including header or > > padding) transmitted in RTP data packets by the sender since > > starting transmission up until the time this SR packet was > > generated. The count SHOULD be reset if the sender changes its > > SSRC identifier. This field can be used to estimate the average > > payload data rate. > > > > Corrected Text > > -------------- > > sender's octet count: 32 bits > > The total number of payload octets > > transmitted in RTP data packets by the sender since > > starting transmission up until the time this SR packet was > > generated. The count SHOULD be reset if the sender changes its > > SSRC identifier. This field can be used to estimate the average > > payload data rate. > > > > Notes > > ----- > > Where as payload octets is defined as the total number of data octets > contained in a Rtp Packet minus the 12 Header octets for Rtp Packets. > > > > Padding octets as well as octets which occur in the contributing source > list should also be included as they may differ on a per packet basis and > would make the total calculation invalid. > > > > During TCP communication any application layer header should NOT be > included in the total bytes count when including the header length. > > > > Any Rtcp packet counters should include the total length of the packet > (header, padding and any other data). > > > > Instructions: > > ------------- > > This erratum is currently posted as "Reported". If necessary, please > > use "Reply All" to discuss whether it should be verified or > > rejected. When a decision is reached, the verifying party (IESG) > > can log in to change the status and edit the report, if necessary. > > > > -------------------------------------- > > RFC3550 (draft-ietf-avt-rtp-new-12) > > -------------------------------------- > > Title : RTP: A Transport Protocol for Real-Time > Applications > > Publication Date : July 2003 > > Author(s) : H. Schulzrinne, S. Casner, R. Frederick, V. > Jacobson > > Category : DRAFT STANDARD > > Source : Audio/Video Transport > > Area : Real-time Applications and Infrastructure > > Stream : IETF > > Verifying Party : IESG > > > > > --047d7bfd0836359fff05097cb5c9 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Thanks for your response.

I do believe your incorect and plese keep in mind that it is= also a security issues to indicate what part of the payload changes due to= encryption.=C2=A0

The indication does not change only satisfied the required i= nformation without bias for padding.

The data is more accurate as I indicated changed because the= parties will be able to track padding if required in their own counters an= d if they dont they will never calculate more or less bytes then actually s= ent which is possible with the current text if the payload required padding= .

Please also keep in mind that if I didn't set padding be= cause it wasn't required then no change is required also if I forgot to= set padding and thus proves itself the change is warranted.

Individuals who choose to follow this old way of thinking in= vite themselves to security issues and overhead of calculating redundantly = included information as the length of a rtcp packet already included paddin= g for that reason.

Think carefully about the above scenarios and also that the = end rate you specify would actually be more accurate.

I have also submitted erratta for rfc2435 and rfc2326 have t= hey been addressed?

Sincerely,
Julius Friedman

On Dec 5, 2014 1:40 PM, "Stephen Casner&quo= t; <casner@acm.org> wrote:
I do not agree with the = proposed change.=C2=A0 As stated in the referenced
text, the sender's octet count was intended to be used to estimate the<= br> average payload data rate.=C2=A0 This is about the payload only, without any consideration of packetization.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 -- Steve

On Wed, 3 Dec 2014, RFC Errata System wrote:

> The following errata report has been submitted for RFC3550,
> "RTP: A Transport Protocol for Real-Time Applications".
>
> --------------------------------------
> You may review the report below and at:
> http://www.rfc-editor.org/errata_search.php?r= fc=3D3550&eid=3D4192
>
> --------------------------------------
> Type: Technical
> Reported by: Julius Friedman <juliusfriedman@gmail.com>
>
> Section: 6.4.1
>
> Original Text
> -------------
> sender's octet count: 32 bits
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The total number of payload octets (i.e., no= t including header or
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0padding) transmitted in RTP data packets by = the sender since
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0starting transmission up until the time this= SR packet was
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0generated.=C2=A0 The count SHOULD be reset i= f the sender changes its
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0SSRC identifier.=C2=A0 This field can be use= d to estimate the average
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0payload data rate.
>
> Corrected Text
> --------------
> sender's octet count: 32 bits
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The total number of payload octets
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0transmitted in RTP data packets by the sende= r since
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0starting transmission up until the time this= SR packet was
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0generated.=C2=A0 The count SHOULD be reset i= f the sender changes its
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0SSRC identifier.=C2=A0 This field can be use= d to estimate the average
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0payload data rate.
>
> Notes
> -----
> Where as payload octets is defined as the total number of data octets = contained in a Rtp Packet minus the 12 Header octets for Rtp Packets.
>
> Padding octets as well as octets which occur in the contributing sourc= e list should also be included as they may differ on a per packet basis and= would make the total calculation invalid.
>
> During TCP communication any application layer header should NOT be in= cluded in the total bytes count when including the header length.
>
> Any Rtcp packet counters should include the total length of the packet= (header, padding and any other data).
>
> Instructions:
> -------------
> This erratum is currently posted as "Reported". If necessary= , please
> use "Reply All" to discuss whether it should be verified or<= br> > rejected. When a decision is reached, the verifying party (IESG)
> can log in to change the status and edit the report, if necessary.
>
> --------------------------------------
> RFC3550 (draft-ietf-avt-rtp-new-12)
> --------------------------------------
> Title=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0: RTP: A T= ransport Protocol for Real-Time Applications
> Publication Date=C2=A0 =C2=A0 : July 2003
> Author(s)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0: H. Schulzrinne, S.= Casner, R. Frederick, V. Jacobson
> Category=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 : DRAFT STANDARD
> Source=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 : Audio/Video T= ransport
> Area=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 : Real-tim= e Applications and Infrastructure
> Stream=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 : IETF
> Verifying Party=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0: IESG
>
>
--047d7bfd0836359fff05097cb5c9-- From nobody Fri Dec 5 12:59:16 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD18F1A1A9B for ; Fri, 5 Dec 2014 12:59:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PiHZRn52vWx3 for ; Fri, 5 Dec 2014 12:59:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pa0-x236.google.com (mail-pa0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c03::236]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9E1421A1A96 for ; Fri, 5 Dec 2014 12:59:10 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pa0-f54.google.com with SMTP id fb1so1365617pad.41 for ; Fri, 05 Dec 2014 12:59:09 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=20NEegpZiomSxT5/fglsmYm3zBSWb5Wi3iut+yMy+B8=; b=FhAY6D82FOiIP317muPBwCI2iRf1vgYZAFtbOJ51hAHthyQhnPE9vyxAlzgNtTmsU9 AGQYlOxaneBhYlO8t2Qj0ShRTzzjA85BA8UMuD7laJTs+t+j+vwm+wrro5Bd7BKimi0m K7ZWmvf7g9za1VkJRR0WeacpgrJIrdd/RyKUrKk6p3mhK/554I9+Qj5NOUJLItcbrFNQ w0Xom4947WxHfv1nJJ6/QCQnLf4CVUht1PskUr2HnIf+s1Ygvy01RCoZey+VAwpFeYPH dPLs/FVda+9wLYzgs7dKkuxpGzqaI8lxqcDvBGZVj7y2UO7DEUF5ahN5edVPRXNrOBLS zaSA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.68.57.199 with SMTP id k7mr38959712pbq.25.1417813149732; Fri, 05 Dec 2014 12:59:09 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.70.52.8 with HTTP; Fri, 5 Dec 2014 12:59:09 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.70.52.8 with HTTP; Fri, 5 Dec 2014 12:59:09 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <20141204014737.6282D181CD3@rfc-editor.org> <7E84273F-FC12-4FB6-976A-7AF724E3D718@bluecoat.com> Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2014 15:59:09 -0500 Message-ID: From: Julius Friedman To: avt@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1137fa6e25d74005097e5952 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/avt/LBul1GyDVviEPZFsQSEkRj3UF3k Subject: [AVTCORE] Fwd: Re: [Technical Errata Reported] RFC3550 (4192) X-BeenThere: avt@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2014 20:59:15 -0000 --001a1137fa6e25d74005097e5952 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 > Then the text definitely needs to change to indicate this is an average and should not be used for verification. > > The property is senders octet count not average octet count and average is not specifically stated when it should be which is still errata then.... > > Let me ask this, what changes if the count includes the padding? > > Rtcp counters include this value anyway. > > Telling someone that no payload octets were sent when sending the padding anyway is an apparent security risk. > > This is made possible by the counter not charging if only padding packets are sent. > > This cannot be correct as is. > > Please advise. > > Also please ascertain the status of the rfc2435 and rfc 2326 errata i submitted so I can communicate those changes if required. > Please do the math before agreeing or disagreeing. > > You will clearly see something needs to change. > > If this is the case the why would the extension octets be included in the same counter? > > Your comments like Mr. Casner are not looking at the details. > > Please also note that this would be only for Srtp anyway as rtp doesn't have padding. > > On Dec 5, 2014 3:08 PM, "Frederick, Ron" wrote: > > > > I agree with Steve. This was intended to count average payload data rate, and not total network data rate. While the padding (and other header data excluded here) contributes to the total network data rate, it should not contribute to the payload data rate. > > > > On Dec 5, 2014, at 10:39 AM, Stephen Casner wrote: > >> > >> > >> I do not agree with the proposed change. As stated in the referenced > >> text, the sender's octet count was intended to be used to estimate the > >> average payload data rate. This is about the payload only, without > >> any consideration of packetization. > >> > >> -- Steve > >> > >> On Wed, 3 Dec 2014, RFC Errata System wrote: > >> > >>> The following errata report has been submitted for RFC3550, > >>> "RTP: A Transport Protocol for Real-Time Applications". > >>> > >>> -------------------------------------- > >>> You may review the report below and at: > >>> http://www.rfc-editor.org/errata_search.php?rfc=3550&eid=4192 > >>> > >>> -------------------------------------- > >>> Type: Technical > >>> Reported by: Julius Friedman > >>> > >>> Section: 6.4.1 > >>> > >>> Original Text > >>> ------------- > >>> sender's octet count: 32 bits > >>> The total number of payload octets (i.e., not including header or > >>> padding) transmitted in RTP data packets by the sender since > >>> starting transmission up until the time this SR packet was > >>> generated. The count SHOULD be reset if the sender changes its > >>> SSRC identifier. This field can be used to estimate the average > >>> payload data rate. > >>> > >>> Corrected Text > >>> -------------- > >>> sender's octet count: 32 bits > >>> The total number of payload octets > >>> transmitted in RTP data packets by the sender since > >>> starting transmission up until the time this SR packet was > >>> generated. The count SHOULD be reset if the sender changes its > >>> SSRC identifier. This field can be used to estimate the average > >>> payload data rate. > >>> > >>> Notes > >>> ----- > >>> Where as payload octets is defined as the total number of data octets contained in a Rtp Packet minus the 12 Header octets for Rtp Packets. > >>> > >>> Padding octets as well as octets which occur in the contributing source list should also be included as they may differ on a per packet basis and would make the total calculation invalid. > >>> > >>> During TCP communication any application layer header should NOT be included in the total bytes count when including the header length. > >>> > >>> Any Rtcp packet counters should include the total length of the packet (header, padding and any other data). > >>> > >>> Instructions: > >>> ------------- > >>> This erratum is currently posted as "Reported". If necessary, please > >>> use "Reply All" to discuss whether it should be verified or > >>> rejected. When a decision is reached, the verifying party (IESG) > >>> can log in to change the status and edit the report, if necessary. > >>> > >>> -------------------------------------- > >>> RFC3550 (draft-ietf-avt-rtp-new-12) > >>> -------------------------------------- > >>> Title : RTP: A Transport Protocol for Real-Time Applications > >>> Publication Date : July 2003 > >>> Author(s) : H. Schulzrinne, S. Casner, R. Frederick, V. Jacobson > >>> Category : DRAFT STANDARD > >>> Source : Audio/Video Transport > >>> Area : Real-time Applications and Infrastructure > >>> Stream : IETF > >>> Verifying Party : IESG > > > > -- > > Ron Frederick > > ronf@bluecoat.com > > > > > > --001a1137fa6e25d74005097e5952 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

> Then the text definitely needs to change to indicate th= is is an average and should not be used for verification.
>
> The property is senders octet count not average octet count and averag= e is not specifically stated when it should be which is still errata then..= ..
>
> Let me ask this, what changes if the count includes the padding?
>
> Rtcp counters include this value anyway.
>
> Telling someone that no payload octets were sent when sending the padd= ing anyway is an apparent security risk.
>
> This is made possible by the counter not charging if only padding pack= ets are sent.
>
> This cannot be correct as is.
>
> Please advise.
>
> Also please ascertain the status of the rfc2435 and rfc 2326 errata i = submitted so I can communicate those changes if required.
> Please do the math before agreeing or disagreeing.
>
> You will clearly see something needs to change.
>
> If this is the case the=C2=A0 why would the extension octets be includ= ed in the same counter?
>
> Your comments like Mr. Casner are not looking at the details.
>
> Please also note that this would be only for Srtp anyway as rtp doesn&= #39;t have padding.
>
> On Dec 5, 2014 3:08 PM, "Frederick, Ron" <ron.frederick@bluecoat.com> wrote: > >
> > I agree with Steve. This was intended to count average payload da= ta rate, and not total network data rate. While the padding (and other head= er data excluded here) contributes to the total network data rate, it shoul= d not contribute to the payload data rate.
> >
> > On Dec 5, 2014, at 10:39 AM, Stephen Casner <casner@acm.org> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> I do not agree with the proposed change.=C2=A0 As stated in t= he referenced
> >> text, the sender's octet count was intended to be used to= estimate the
> >> average payload data rate.=C2=A0 This is about the payload on= ly, without
> >> any consideration of packetization.
> >>
> >> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0-- Steve
> >>
> >> On Wed, 3 Dec 2014, RFC Errata System wrote:
> >>
> >>> The following errata report has been submitted for RFC355= 0,
> >>> "RTP: A Transport Protocol for Real-Time Application= s".
> >>>
> >>> --------------------------------------
> >>> You may review the report below and at:
> >>> http://www.rfc-editor.org/errata_search.php?rfc=3D= 3550&eid=3D4192
> >>>
> >>> --------------------------------------
> >>> Type: Technical
> >>> Reported by: Julius Friedman <juliusfriedman@gmail.com>
> >>>
> >>> Section: 6.4.1
> >>>
> >>> Original Text
> >>> -------------
> >>> sender's octet count: 32 bits
> >>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0The total number of payload= octets (i.e., not including header or
> >>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0padding) transmitted in RTP= data packets by the sender since
> >>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0starting transmission up un= til the time this SR packet was
> >>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0generated.=C2=A0 The count = SHOULD be reset if the sender changes its
> >>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0SSRC identifier.=C2=A0 This= field can be used to estimate the average
> >>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0payload data rate.
> >>>
> >>> Corrected Text
> >>> --------------
> >>> sender's octet count: 32 bits
> >>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0The total number of payload= octets
> >>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0transmitted in RTP data pac= kets by the sender since
> >>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0starting transmission up un= til the time this SR packet was
> >>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0generated.=C2=A0 The count = SHOULD be reset if the sender changes its
> >>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0SSRC identifier.=C2=A0 This= field can be used to estimate the average
> >>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0payload data rate.
> >>>
> >>> Notes
> >>> -----
> >>> Where as payload octets is defined as the total number of= data octets contained in a Rtp Packet minus the 12 Header octets for Rtp P= ackets.
> >>>
> >>> Padding octets as well as octets which occur in the contr= ibuting source list should also be included as they may differ on a per pac= ket basis and would make the total calculation invalid.
> >>>
> >>> During TCP communication any application layer header sho= uld NOT be included in the total bytes count when including the header leng= th.
> >>>
> >>> Any Rtcp packet counters should include the total length = of the packet (header, padding and any other data).
> >>>
> >>> Instructions:
> >>> -------------
> >>> This erratum is currently posted as "Reported".= If necessary, please
> >>> use "Reply All" to discuss whether it should be= verified or
> >>> rejected. When a decision is reached, the verifying party= (IESG)
> >>> can log in to change the status and edit the report, if n= ecessary.
> >>>
> >>> --------------------------------------
> >>> RFC3550 (draft-ietf-avt-rtp-new-12)
> >>> --------------------------------------
> >>> Title =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0: RTP: A Transport Protocol for Real-Time = Applications
> >>> Publication Date =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0: July 2003
> >>> Author(s) =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0: H. Schulzrinne, S. Casner, R. Frederick, V. Jacobson
> >>> Category =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0: DRAFT STANDARD
> >>> Source =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0: Audio/Video Transport
> >>> Area =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0: Real-time Applications and Infrast= ructure
> >>> Stream =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0: IETF
> >>> Verifying Party =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0: IESG
> >
> > --=C2=A0
> > Ron Frederick
> > ronf@bluecoat.com
> >
> >
> >

--001a1137fa6e25d74005097e5952-- From nobody Fri Dec 5 13:13:38 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C96851A1A9B for ; Fri, 5 Dec 2014 13:13:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kHJ88fai8p1i for ; Fri, 5 Dec 2014 13:13:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pa0-x233.google.com (mail-pa0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c03::233]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 28B4C1A1A83 for ; Fri, 5 Dec 2014 13:13:35 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pa0-f51.google.com with SMTP id ey11so1411369pad.38 for ; Fri, 05 Dec 2014 13:13:34 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=oVs9KveAoj+uofOmuTUfCnOYbUfKvIx5aY9TGIIMcVE=; b=vodBCpBI5b+5SlGlJFk4G9/Wr8LZs0M5iA3jCnDW8raizoQwAtsSAiKRsgFk2F9JAW Le2mcfVqHz46cUIfS/Ht/DnbZsv/1kJZON/a2gkF/h+GGf2qzvOrqAZYpep5VPRG2sBr 0VsIu5gQOfGeowNuDRk0+fMxHxojxe8llVgVrLa9KrCErw2grATjLbJwkh9uOaQ821RD YT1Z9Y2AS88PbMJs3dwz/+KVH3WWqXDwMawwVF+1XrleO9gNvQ751CXkrx8hN9OsNnwg NIl6aWBNsNUAvI2MAE9N9EB9ncAJWEAze864bRowOk7loiV+dz6E3KSRkYLiVVgQFsLW hS5Q== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.70.33.106 with SMTP id q10mr31597891pdi.120.1417814014478; Fri, 05 Dec 2014 13:13:34 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.70.52.8 with HTTP; Fri, 5 Dec 2014 13:13:34 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.70.52.8 with HTTP; Fri, 5 Dec 2014 13:13:34 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2014 16:13:34 -0500 Message-ID: From: Julius Friedman To: avt@ietf.org, Stephen Casner , Ron Frederick Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7bfd0836b0f98705097e8c65 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/avt/9Qhb2dB24T1YPrekz7sSXAp76FY Subject: [AVTCORE] Errata 4192 RFC 3550 X-BeenThere: avt@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2014 21:13:37 -0000 --047d7bfd0836b0f98705097e8c65 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Hello All. There is definitely some confusion related to the errata I submitted for RFC3550. The RFC clearly states: sender's octet count: 32 bits The total number of payload octets (i.e., not including header or padding) transmitted in RTP data packets by the sender since starting transmission up until the time this SR packet was generated. The count SHOULD be reset if the sender changes its SSRC identifier. This field can be used to estimate the average payload data rate. Just because it CAN be used for an average does not mean it should. Further it is the total number of octets in the payload besides the header because the header is always 12 octets. Since csrc and extension octets are included then padding should be also. Since rtcp also reflects the count with padding this is obviously correct. Any padding only packet would not change the counter for rtp and is thus a security issue as well as a redundantly conveyed piece of information because each packet contains the number of padding bytes which can be accounted for in the implementation when required. To account for padding when padding is not required and would be 0 is also contradictory. Please read and re read the errata if required. Please advise. ( intelligently ) Sincerely, Julius Friedman --047d7bfd0836b0f98705097e8c65 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hello All.

There is definitely some confusion related to the errata I s= ubmitted for RFC3550.

The RFC clearly states:

sender's octet count: 32 bits
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 The total number of payload octets (i.e., no= t including header or
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 padding) transmitted in RTP data packets by = the sender since
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 starting transmission up until the time this= SR packet was
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 generated.=C2=A0 The count SHOULD be reset i= f the sender changes its
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 SSRC identifier.=C2=A0 This field can be use= d to estimate the average
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 payload data rate.

Just because it CAN be used for an average does not mean it = should.

Further it is the total number of octets in the payload besi= des the header because the header is always 12 octets.

Since csrc and extension octets are included then padding sh= ould be also.

Since rtcp also reflects the count with padding this is obvi= ously correct.

Any padding only packet would not change the counter for rtp= and is thus a security issue as well as a redundantly conveyed piece of in= formation because each packet contains the number of padding bytes which ca= n be accounted for in the implementation when required.

To account for padding when padding is not required and woul= d be 0 is also contradictory.

Please read and re read the errata if required.

Please advise.=C2=A0 ( intelligently )

Sincerely,
Julius Friedman

--047d7bfd0836b0f98705097e8c65-- From nobody Sat Dec 6 12:49:58 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14BDE1AD51C for ; Fri, 5 Dec 2014 10:40:28 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.935 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.935 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CqDiNN-nOL5o for ; Fri, 5 Dec 2014 10:40:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from c.mail.sonic.net (c.mail.sonic.net [64.142.111.80]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A11DB1AD516 for ; Fri, 5 Dec 2014 10:40:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from auge (75-25-120-141.lightspeed.snvaca.sbcglobal.net [75.25.120.141]) (authenticated bits=0) by c.mail.sonic.net (8.14.9/8.14.9) with ESMTP id sB5IduB6021270 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Fri, 5 Dec 2014 10:39:57 -0800 Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2014 10:39:56 -0800 (PST) From: Stephen Casner To: RFC Errata System In-Reply-To: <20141204014737.6282D181CD3@rfc-editor.org> Message-ID: References: <20141204014737.6282D181CD3@rfc-editor.org> User-Agent: Alpine 2.19.9991 (OSX 64 2014-05-31) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Sonic-CAuth: UmFuZG9tSVbuOqHsnSRiQ6RAO3ZIKcM6VrZ6naljhCyI4dqFb5fWQrNN/gMTVSLR5JRhMRNqwO/GWHIpdIOexujyjGgM+uqr X-Sonic-ID: C;yDUMHK585BGLy1Zegs/dsg== M;6lk0HK585BGLy1Zegs/dsg== X-Sonic-Spam-Details: 0.0/5.0 by cerberusd Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/avt/NWugUWeUShvuSJ6-PyEOemzOemI X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sat, 06 Dec 2014 12:49:55 -0800 Cc: schulzrinne@cs.columbia.edu, avt@ietf.org, juliusfriedman@gmail.com, van@packetdesign.com Subject: Re: [AVTCORE] [Technical Errata Reported] RFC3550 (4192) X-BeenThere: avt@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2014 18:40:28 -0000 I do not agree with the proposed change. As stated in the referenced text, the sender's octet count was intended to be used to estimate the average payload data rate. This is about the payload only, without any consideration of packetization. -- Steve On Wed, 3 Dec 2014, RFC Errata System wrote: > The following errata report has been submitted for RFC3550, > "RTP: A Transport Protocol for Real-Time Applications". > > -------------------------------------- > You may review the report below and at: > http://www.rfc-editor.org/errata_search.php?rfc=3550&eid=4192 > > -------------------------------------- > Type: Technical > Reported by: Julius Friedman > > Section: 6.4.1 > > Original Text > ------------- > sender's octet count: 32 bits > The total number of payload octets (i.e., not including header or > padding) transmitted in RTP data packets by the sender since > starting transmission up until the time this SR packet was > generated. The count SHOULD be reset if the sender changes its > SSRC identifier. This field can be used to estimate the average > payload data rate. > > Corrected Text > -------------- > sender's octet count: 32 bits > The total number of payload octets > transmitted in RTP data packets by the sender since > starting transmission up until the time this SR packet was > generated. The count SHOULD be reset if the sender changes its > SSRC identifier. This field can be used to estimate the average > payload data rate. > > Notes > ----- > Where as payload octets is defined as the total number of data octets contained in a Rtp Packet minus the 12 Header octets for Rtp Packets. > > Padding octets as well as octets which occur in the contributing source list should also be included as they may differ on a per packet basis and would make the total calculation invalid. > > During TCP communication any application layer header should NOT be included in the total bytes count when including the header length. > > Any Rtcp packet counters should include the total length of the packet (header, padding and any other data). > > Instructions: > ------------- > This erratum is currently posted as "Reported". If necessary, please > use "Reply All" to discuss whether it should be verified or > rejected. When a decision is reached, the verifying party (IESG) > can log in to change the status and edit the report, if necessary. > > -------------------------------------- > RFC3550 (draft-ietf-avt-rtp-new-12) > -------------------------------------- > Title : RTP: A Transport Protocol for Real-Time Applications > Publication Date : July 2003 > Author(s) : H. Schulzrinne, S. Casner, R. Frederick, V. Jacobson > Category : DRAFT STANDARD > Source : Audio/Video Transport > Area : Real-time Applications and Infrastructure > Stream : IETF > Verifying Party : IESG > > From nobody Sat Dec 6 12:50:00 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D4331A01EA for ; Fri, 5 Dec 2014 12:08:52 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XFSyfU3AVuPT for ; Fri, 5 Dec 2014 12:08:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from plsvl-mailgw-01.bluecoat.com (spf.bluecoat.com [199.91.133.11]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C38FC1A014C for ; Fri, 5 Dec 2014 12:08:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from pwsvl-exchts-06.internal.cacheflow.com (esxdev03.bluecoat.com [10.2.2.166]) by plsvl-mailgw-01.bluecoat.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19B9181A5FE; Fri, 5 Dec 2014 12:08:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from pwsvl-excmbx-05.internal.cacheflow.com ([fe80::f848:d461:9aa9:59a8]) by pwsvl-exchts-06.internal.cacheflow.com ([fe80::8554:761:8def:a2e1%12]) with mapi id 14.03.0123.003; Fri, 5 Dec 2014 12:08:48 -0800 From: "Frederick, Ron" To: Stephen Casner Thread-Topic: [Technical Errata Reported] RFC3550 (4192) Thread-Index: AQHQELrmxuAoKH/WfkOd7U9S8PK7hZyB8zUA Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2014 20:08:48 +0000 Message-ID: <7E84273F-FC12-4FB6-976A-7AF724E3D718@bluecoat.com> References: <20141204014737.6282D181CD3@rfc-editor.org> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.2.2.106] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_7E84273FFC124FB6976A7AF724E3D718bluecoatcom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/avt/iq2pPGrMLblmJGyqemzjAsOtNAE X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sat, 06 Dec 2014 12:49:55 -0800 Cc: "schulzrinne@cs.columbia.edu" , "avt@ietf.org" , "juliusfriedman@gmail.com" , "van@packetdesign.com" , RFC Errata System Subject: Re: [AVTCORE] [Technical Errata Reported] RFC3550 (4192) X-BeenThere: avt@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2014 20:08:52 -0000 --_000_7E84273FFC124FB6976A7AF724E3D718bluecoatcom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I agree with Steve. This was intended to count average payload data rate, a= nd not total network data rate. While the padding (and other header data ex= cluded here) contributes to the total network data rate, it should not cont= ribute to the payload data rate. On Dec 5, 2014, at 10:39 AM, Stephen Casner > wrote: I do not agree with the proposed change. As stated in the referenced text, the sender's octet count was intended to be used to estimate the average payload data rate. This is about the payload only, without any consideration of packetization. -- Steve On Wed, 3 Dec 2014, RFC Errata System wrote: The following errata report has been submitted for RFC3550, "RTP: A Transport Protocol for Real-Time Applications". -------------------------------------- You may review the report below and at: http://www.rfc-editor.org/errata_search.php?rfc=3D3550&eid=3D4192 -------------------------------------- Type: Technical Reported by: Julius Friedman Section: 6.4.1 Original Text ------------- sender's octet count: 32 bits The total number of payload octets (i.e., not including header or padding) transmitted in RTP data packets by the sender since starting transmission up until the time this SR packet was generated. The count SHOULD be reset if the sender changes its SSRC identifier. This field can be used to estimate the average payload data rate. Corrected Text -------------- sender's octet count: 32 bits The total number of payload octets transmitted in RTP data packets by the sender since starting transmission up until the time this SR packet was generated. The count SHOULD be reset if the sender changes its SSRC identifier. This field can be used to estimate the average payload data rate. Notes ----- Where as payload octets is defined as the total number of data octets conta= ined in a Rtp Packet minus the 12 Header octets for Rtp Packets. Padding octets as well as octets which occur in the contributing source lis= t should also be included as they may differ on a per packet basis and woul= d make the total calculation invalid. During TCP communication any application layer header should NOT be include= d in the total bytes count when including the header length. Any Rtcp packet counters should include the total length of the packet (hea= der, padding and any other data). Instructions: ------------- This erratum is currently posted as "Reported". If necessary, please use "Reply All" to discuss whether it should be verified or rejected. When a decision is reached, the verifying party (IESG) can log in to change the status and edit the report, if necessary. -------------------------------------- RFC3550 (draft-ietf-avt-rtp-new-12) -------------------------------------- Title : RTP: A Transport Protocol for Real-Time Applications Publication Date : July 2003 Author(s) : H. Schulzrinne, S. Casner, R. Frederick, V. Jacobson Category : DRAFT STANDARD Source : Audio/Video Transport Area : Real-time Applications and Infrastructure Stream : IETF Verifying Party : IESG -- Ron Frederick ronf@bluecoat.com --_000_7E84273FFC124FB6976A7AF724E3D718bluecoatcom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I agree with Steve. This was intended to count average payload data ra= te, and not total network data rate. While the padding (and other header da= ta excluded here) contributes to the total network data rate, it should not= contribute to the payload data rate.

On Dec 5, 2014, at 10:39 AM, Stephen Casner <casner@acm.org> wrote:

I do not agree with the proposed change.  As stated in= the referenced
text, the sender's octet count was intended to be used to estimate the
average payload data rate.  This is about the payload only, without any consideration of packetization.

            &nb= sp;            =             &nb= sp;            =      -- Steve

On Wed, 3 Dec 2014, RFC Errata System wrote:

The following errata report has been s= ubmitted for RFC3550,
"RTP: A Transport Protocol for Real-Time Applications".

--------------------------------------
You may review the report below and at:
http://www.rfc-editor.org/errata_search.php?rfc=3D3550&= amp;eid=3D4192

--------------------------------------
Type: Technical
Reported by: Julius Friedman <juliusfriedman@gmail.com>

Section: 6.4.1

Original Text
-------------
sender's octet count: 32 bits
     The total number of payload octets (i.e., not= including header or
     padding) transmitted in RTP data packets by t= he sender since
     starting transmission up until the time this = SR packet was
     generated.  The count SHOULD be reset if= the sender changes its
     SSRC identifier.  This field can be used= to estimate the average
     payload data rate.

Corrected Text
--------------
sender's octet count: 32 bits
     The total number of payload octets
     transmitted in RTP data packets by the sender= since
     starting transmission up until the time this = SR packet was
     generated.  The count SHOULD be reset if= the sender changes its
     SSRC identifier.  This field can be used= to estimate the average
     payload data rate.

Notes
-----
Where as payload octets is defined as the total number of data octets conta= ined in a Rtp Packet minus the 12 Header octets for Rtp Packets.

Padding octets as well as octets which occur in the contributing source lis= t should also be included as they may differ on a per packet basis and woul= d make the total calculation invalid.

During TCP communication any application layer header should NOT be include= d in the total bytes count when including the header length.

Any Rtcp packet counters should include the total length of the packet (hea= der, padding and any other data).

Instructions:
-------------
This erratum is currently posted as "Reported". If necessary, ple= ase
use "Reply All" to discuss whether it should be verified or
rejected. When a decision is reached, the verifying party (IESG)
can log in to change the status and edit the report, if necessary.

--------------------------------------
RFC3550 (draft-ietf-avt-rtp-new-12)
--------------------------------------
Title            &nb= sp;  : RTP: A Transport Protocol for Real-Time Applications
Publication Date    : July 2003
Author(s)           : H. = Schulzrinne, S. Casner, R. Frederick, V. Jacobson
Category            = : DRAFT STANDARD
Source            &n= bsp; : Audio/Video Transport
Area            &nbs= p;   : Real-time Applications and Infrastructure
Stream            &n= bsp; : IETF
Verifying Party     : IESG
-- 
Ron Frederick



--_000_7E84273FFC124FB6976A7AF724E3D718bluecoatcom_-- From nobody Mon Dec 8 06:45:12 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7CA71A909A for ; Mon, 8 Dec 2014 06:45:09 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HHhk4BBXYfsq for ; Mon, 8 Dec 2014 06:45:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wi0-x22f.google.com (mail-wi0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c05::22f]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3DCCB1A9099 for ; Mon, 8 Dec 2014 06:45:08 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wi0-f175.google.com with SMTP id l15so4916703wiw.2 for ; Mon, 08 Dec 2014 06:45:06 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:mime-version:content-type :thread-index:content-language; bh=IYDwZiGJMcGTtNhXSAVHN/hqydaVl2HicW+UyCz8Kcs=; b=yyh/1FhFy7+ohhRQypm2+9XCM4cUvP9gWUl+Xd0D/uV6nZNXnWHoA2c4o1CDrlXAaB 5IdBUTDp0UXSgifsqUu7cw7frjeHqxsrE1iSKgpLHQF9ddpi6nwwSoLOlZTOlxRjFs+b TocvBYeMvo9R8b6JitEaDFjN532OCwYRVwfxbu5fFtb26oFzRmPBzt99YxDCAu+4w0NF qrieBAKsbdk1gwADPpcbagqP1auSKIsy3+unmwzn09xLE4vfXzTluRoAlmMgZUYGFM26 r6F5wE4KsFdFU0L0ETbGZQlHxApPwWMQ9Q2nHangojCFLH1RNWFbk8R+go7+G91gHw5U HtLA== X-Received: by 10.180.108.205 with SMTP id hm13mr25407860wib.5.1418049906846; Mon, 08 Dec 2014 06:45:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from RoniE (bzq-79-176-192-126.red.bezeqint.net. [79.176.192.126]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id d2sm56870375wjs.32.2014.12.08.06.45.05 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Mon, 08 Dec 2014 06:45:06 -0800 (PST) From: "Roni Even" To: Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2014 16:45:00 +0200 Message-ID: <0ad601d012f5$8dc4b230$a94e1690$@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0AD7_01D01306.514E4580" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AdAS9W4Aogt/u03OQnG2zAGqSEyqvw== Content-Language: en-us Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/avt/AqhdQBNBro5KUmmGN0oBCvqiBeE Subject: [AVTCORE] AVTcore IETF91 minutes X-BeenThere: avt@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2014 14:45:10 -0000 This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0AD7_01D01306.514E4580 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, I uploaded the AVTcore minutes, please review http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/91/minutes/minutes-91-avtcore Thanks Roni Even AVTcore co-chair ------=_NextPart_000_0AD7_01D01306.514E4580 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi,

I uploaded the = AVTcore minutes, please review

 

ht= tp://www.ietf.org/proceedings/91/minutes/minutes-91-avtcore

 

Thanks

Roni = Even

AVTcore = co-chair

------=_NextPart_000_0AD7_01D01306.514E4580-- From nobody Mon Dec 8 14:37:00 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54C4F1A0070 for ; Mon, 8 Dec 2014 14:36:58 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.935 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.935 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wLwWBSy862YI for ; Mon, 8 Dec 2014 14:36:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from c.mail.sonic.net (c.mail.sonic.net [64.142.111.80]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 10B341A006F for ; Mon, 8 Dec 2014 14:36:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from auge (75-25-120-141.lightspeed.snvaca.sbcglobal.net [75.25.120.141]) (authenticated bits=0) by c.mail.sonic.net (8.14.9/8.14.9) with ESMTP id sB8MassD002520 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Mon, 8 Dec 2014 14:36:54 -0800 Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2014 14:36:53 -0800 (PST) From: Stephen Casner To: Julius Friedman In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: User-Agent: Alpine 2.19.9991 (OSX 64 2014-05-31) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Sonic-CAuth: UmFuZG9tSVaNXKUoQTCQHtnNkxdvl8pMDqsu3l0fj17tst6sotB3hCKig9FBxcCO+u2Hp5+MKsEs1S822lJ5bxT/HGo6kyxW X-Sonic-ID: C;WhaktSp/5BG02lZegs/dsg== M;bhvRtSp/5BG02lZegs/dsg== X-Sonic-Spam-Details: 0.0/5.0 by cerberusd Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/avt/RVR0UXXCvgSmPgvmNdFXtugvFo0 Cc: Ron Frederick , avt@ietf.org Subject: Re: [AVTCORE] Errata 4192 RFC 3550 X-BeenThere: avt@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2014 22:36:58 -0000 On Fri, 5 Dec 2014, Julius Friedman wrote: > Hello All. > > There is definitely some confusion related to the errata I submitted for > RFC3550. I believe the confusion is within your interpretation of the standard, not in our interpretation of your proposed errata. Perhaps you would like RTP to have some functions that are different than those that were specified, but those do not constitute errata. > The RFC clearly states: > > sender's octet count: 32 bits > The total number of payload octets (i.e., not including header or > padding) transmitted in RTP data packets by the sender since > starting transmission up until the time this SR packet was > generated. The count SHOULD be reset if the sender changes its > SSRC identifier. This field can be used to estimate the average > payload data rate. > > Just because it CAN be used for an average does not mean it should. Let me clarify. When we wrote that sentence, we were stating why this field was included. It was included so that receivers would be able to know the sender's average payload data rate over various time intervals by taking the value of this field from two sender reports and dividing by the difference in time of the two sender reports. The receiver might want to compare that result with the average of the data as received (perhaps with some losses). > Further it is the total number of octets in the payload besides the > header because the header is always 12 octets. > > Since csrc and extension octets are included then padding should be > also. The CSRC and extension octets part of the RTP header and the phrase "not including header" means that they would not be included in the sender's octet count. What text in RFC 3550 led you to believe that the header is always just the first 12 octets and that therefore the CSRC and extension octets would be included in the sender's octet count? > Since rtcp also reflects the count with padding this is obviously > correct. I am not sure what you are referring to here. In another email you said "Rtcp counters include this value anyway." What RTCP counters include a count of padding bytes? Perhaps you are referring to the fact that the legnth field in the RTCP header includes padding on the RTCP compound packet. That is irrelevant to the question of whether the sender's octet count, which is a count of payload octets, should or should not include padding octets. > Any padding only packet would not change the counter for rtp and is > thus a security issue as well as a redundantly conveyed piece of > information because each packet contains the number of padding bytes > which can be accounted for in the implementation when required. I do not see a security issue. Please explain how there would be an added security risk for an application that does send RTP data packets with padding compared to an application does does not send RTP data packets with padding, even if sometimes those applications send RTP data packets containing no payload data. The sender's octet count is an aggregate count of the payload octets over some number, often a large number, of RTP data packets. If the receiver gets all of the data packets with no loss, then that same count could be calculated. However, some packets may be lost. RTP is designed to help implementations be tolerant of packet loss. > To account for padding when padding is not required and would be 0 > is also contradictory. I don't understand this sentence. The sender's octet count does not include padding octets, so for implementations that do not send padding the number of excluded padding octets is zero, but that does not form any contradiction. > Please read and re read the errata if required. > > Please advise. ( intelligently ) I suggest that careful reading and understanding of RFC 3550 is what is required here. -- Steve From nobody Tue Dec 9 22:22:26 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 512241A1B85 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 2014 22:22:24 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 57Rcm1gQAHff for ; Tue, 9 Dec 2014 22:22:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pd0-x231.google.com (mail-pd0-x231.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c02::231]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7A95A1A1A7A for ; Tue, 9 Dec 2014 22:22:18 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pd0-f177.google.com with SMTP id ft15so2115169pdb.8 for ; Tue, 09 Dec 2014 22:22:17 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=cQUl+929ukXIau3/rYcMOaLoi8CxoUHOMLdbWWAJ2xM=; b=k3scIb12BcREAyeK66Lk1MvPvdeWQeTiLNNit7gsucF7tXF2Zzh1sAVChjCk8idhA3 UnUZIZs6piCg4thuihGxF4wCKGWOTumini+8rBuY/DHkoVfdJIhHYXtDH63HRaIowkcb sCY8Paz6RtZKyKmOsWm/62IzU7eoN7SDIZM7DOgEqeUgphUTgtt6vqNeLTfa1QZ0Cg9E dfVdZjBirEQ54XAVLrNm+AtIs2tS8LAZ2l1QLz/RI6qef8ze1dBgDiUqWbo6R+dJp/x0 E4ERYVUXiJqdCpRVFJvVcfSxPEbqJb8zN/uPMMRiznxKDNVXLKfCeVWO06dCOjdGeopT C9CQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.68.57.199 with SMTP id k7mr4016871pbq.25.1418192537753; Tue, 09 Dec 2014 22:22:17 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.70.117.99 with HTTP; Tue, 9 Dec 2014 22:22:17 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2014 01:22:17 -0500 Message-ID: From: Julius Friedman To: Stephen Casner , avt@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1137fa6e6f9eef0509d6ae13 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/avt/CTSvGieGWbWHKCZSVJzidrTGW94 Subject: Re: [AVTCORE] Errata 4192 RFC 3550 X-BeenThere: avt@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2014 06:22:24 -0000 --001a1137fa6e6f9eef0509d6ae13 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Dear Mr. Casner / Audio Video Working Group. Sincerely thank you for responding in a manner which clearly shows that you have taken the time to acknowledge my inquiry. I know my previous emails were hastily written and this one is probably not much better but I will endeavor to express my concerns and points and then in summary ask you respond at least once again. I would like to first start of by saying that if I did have functions which are not specified they would not be standard and hence not relevant for errata, the reason I wrote this errata is because I know that others have also had issues when reading that sentence (and multiple others in the Rtp RFC [3550]) and I would like to clarify if nothing else why I believe it is errata and why it can potentially be a security risk. I don't mean to pick apart your answer but I would like to take some of your response and ensure I understand it correctly. " Let me clarify. When we wrote that sentence, we were stating why this field was included. It was included so that receivers would be able to know the sender's average payload data rate over various time intervals by taking the value of this field from two sender reports and dividing by the difference in time of the two sender reports. The receiver might want to compare that result with the average of the data as received (perhaps with some losses). " Advising by your statement, particularly the bit about how one could possibly calculate the data rate over various time intervals, if I were to disagree I would first have to ascertain the exact meaning of such a term [payload data rate] thus first we must look at your wording, "sender's average payload data rate". To answer this, and some of the latter questions in your email. What is a payload before we can talk about it's data rate? Well it is EVERYTHING that is not the header. What is the header? The header (in terms of Rtp Packets) consists of the first 3 words (12 octets) which indicate the version, padding, extension, contributing source count, payload type, marker, sequence number, ssrc and timestamp. Before I continue my arguement I will make a statement to show my line of thinking; Since each transmission of a "valid" rtp packet might consist of ONLY a header the payload size in such a case would be 0. A valid rtp packet may have a contributing source counter <= 15, this implies that another csrc words following the 12 required header octets. A valid rtp packet may have an extension, when present will follow immediately after the csrc words indicated by the csrc nibble in the header. A valid rtp packet may contain padding, when present it will follow any "payload data" and such padding must define a count which is set in the final octet of the raw binary sequence which is defined as the rtp packet. Because of the above given restraints it can be seen that a receiver must have a valid RTP Header consisting of 12 octets to properly determine if the data received is valid / complete. Given those notions I will continue my arguments; While the header is technically extended by the presence of csrc, extension and the payload is proceeded by padding it makes sense to think of them as contained in the payload section and such calculations regarding their length (especially padding) can only be made after reception of at least 12 octets. No matter if RTP Lite is used and the Rtp Header is not 12 octets or ROHC is employed and the header is not 12 octets, and thus may be re-constructed or de-compressed the amount of header bytes can explicitly be calculated to 12 octets. Thus any time the 'sender's packet count' increases one receiver can multiply that number [sender's packet count] by 12 to receive the amount of bytes related to rtp headers in transmissions, this would reveal a payload data rate of 0 in such cases as the sender is sending "rtp header" only packets to a receiver. Taking the same example, if I add ONLY padding to the payload and I followed your recommendation I would still have data rate of 0 in such a case. The same would apply for csrc and extensions of combinations of all 3 regardless of their length and contribution to the overall rate of data (and their subsequent effects on the network [regardless how small they are]). When middle boxes receive rtp packets and remove extensions or a mixer combined several sources and indicates so in the csrc field the payload data rate technically doesn't change but the overall data rate does, while when using your recommended count the receiver will not be able to determine if the path between the two changes due to a mixer or middle box performing any modification of the data packets from the sender because the data is "hidden" using your recommended count. While this may be desirable for some reasons as it would keep the size the same and the count the same, it removes information which would be able to be used for various purposes such as determining if alternates routes are followed etc; while a receiver is very well able to keep on their own of the amount of total bytes they are receiving, and they as well can calculate the amount of padding and bytes related to csrc, extensions the problem arises if and when packets are lost. In such a case the receiver will not be able to calculate the amount of data or other bytes because the packet was not received, while the standard allows for also calculating how much was lost there needs to be a reference point; This is where [sender's packet count] is needed and using it one can then indicate roughly how many bytes were missing using the amount of packets indicated there minus the amount received to determine the exact amount of packets lost (but I suppose would not be needed if you were JUST determining payload data rate, it would simply be lower or higher given the two differences in the [senders octet count] value and the time received). Finally, the security risk of indicating the amount of bytes related to payload data (especially considering now your explicitly stating to remove the extension and csrc data from) versus just bytes for counting purposes is simply this. Over a time (regardless if padding only packets are sent or not) one can quickly determine if extensions, csrc or padding is then in used in rtp just by monitoring the value in the senders report versus what was actually sent on the wire. This also reveals the congruence of the padding with respect to the payload, and thus reduces complexity in determining the key (by knowing the padding length using it to lower the amount of attempts required to derive the correct key) by the amount of bytes not relevant to the portion being ciphered. Even though the extension and csrc are probably encrypted the senders octet count again reveals the amount of bytes only related to DATA so the length of these values can be extracted and thus the amount of data which is probably the same and in any such case not related to the payload can thus be derived and used to shorten the amount of time in deriving a correct key. With my proposed changes (which is simply just using the entire length of the binary payload - 12 for the header length) one will make the derivation of bytes related to csrc / extension and padding much more difficult if not impossible to derive. It will also increase the accuracy of your given calculation because more bytes are being included in the value which allow a higher degree of accuracy when related to the other factors given (e.g. jitter takes into account the whole packet, not just the payload data rate) It is important to realize that no distinction should be made after transport of the "rate" with anything other than whole and valid packets because of middle boxes and other such devices (mixers) which may alter the end contents of the packet, and by doing so does not break compatibility in the standard only allows for more accurate and useful information to be derived without chaining anything besides removing additional subtraction from a place where is is not required and poses no benefit and citing my explanations thus constitutes it as errata from my perspective. In short, it makes sense to use the property as it was named and give the receiver the ability to determine average / total or whatever else they want to by simply giving them the information as required, removing information serves no positive purpose in this case and let me also point out that not many (if not all) implementations I can find already are just giving the "payload" count, there are very very few which actually take into account extensions and csrcs and slightly more that account for padding including the software 'rtp tools' which was developed by Mr. Schulzrinne. This will actually make software existing more correct in those cases while not changing anything in the standard although that is not a reason to change it I hope you also can see there is no negative effect with my proposed change, e.g. if a person forgets to set extension, csrc or padding my implementation will see no different but yours will. If your application changes to include the count as I indicated and performs the same calculations it performs today, (taking padding into account as well as extension and csrc) it will not change the result of any existing algorithm. Therefore I strongly recommend that you base your decision on those points and additionally the fact it weakens security is an issue as well. If you are going to reject it I would at least like an indication of WHY it needs to be rejected. E.g. it would break this or that as well as an brief explanation. If no such argument can be made on how it will cause a problem with existing implementations then then how can one argue against it especially considering the security questions which I have given? I at the very least expect the wording to changed to indicate explicitly that the extension, csrc should also not be included in the count. Lastly, what about the errata related to RFC2435 and RFC2326 which I have submitted? They have not been responded to, are they being looked into? Sincerely, Julius On Mon, Dec 8, 2014 at 5:36 PM, Stephen Casner wrote: > On Fri, 5 Dec 2014, Julius Friedman wrote: > > > Hello All. > > > > There is definitely some confusion related to the errata I submitted for > > RFC3550. > > I believe the confusion is within your interpretation of the standard, > not in our interpretation of your proposed errata. Perhaps you would > like RTP to have some functions that are different than those that > were specified, but those do not constitute errata. > > > The RFC clearly states: > > > > sender's octet count: 32 bits > > The total number of payload octets (i.e., not including header or > > padding) transmitted in RTP data packets by the sender since > > starting transmission up until the time this SR packet was > > generated. The count SHOULD be reset if the sender changes its > > SSRC identifier. This field can be used to estimate the average > > payload data rate. > > > > Just because it CAN be used for an average does not mean it should. > > Let me clarify. When we wrote that sentence, we were stating why this > field was included. It was included so that receivers would be able > to know the sender's average payload data rate over various time > intervals by taking the value of this field from two sender reports > and dividing by the difference in time of the two sender reports. The > receiver might want to compare that result with the average of the > data as received (perhaps with some losses). > > > Further it is the total number of octets in the payload besides the > > header because the header is always 12 octets. > > > > Since csrc and extension octets are included then padding should be > > also. > > The CSRC and extension octets part of the RTP header and the phrase > "not including header" means that they would not be included in the > sender's octet count. What text in RFC 3550 led you to believe that > the header is always just the first 12 octets and that therefore the > CSRC and extension octets would be included in the sender's octet > count? > > > Since rtcp also reflects the count with padding this is obviously > > correct. > > I am not sure what you are referring to here. In another email you > said "Rtcp counters include this value anyway." What RTCP counters > include a count of padding bytes? Perhaps you are referring to the > fact that the legnth field in the RTCP header includes padding on the > RTCP compound packet. That is irrelevant to the question of whether > the sender's octet count, which is a count of payload octets, should > or should not include padding octets. > > > Any padding only packet would not change the counter for rtp and is > > thus a security issue as well as a redundantly conveyed piece of > > information because each packet contains the number of padding bytes > > which can be accounted for in the implementation when required. > > I do not see a security issue. Please explain how there would be an > added security risk for an application that does send RTP data packets > with padding compared to an application does does not send RTP data > packets with padding, even if sometimes those applications send RTP > data packets containing no payload data. > > The sender's octet count is an aggregate count of the payload octets > over some number, often a large number, of RTP data packets. If the > receiver gets all of the data packets with no loss, then that same > count could be calculated. However, some packets may be lost. RTP is > designed to help implementations be tolerant of packet loss. > > > To account for padding when padding is not required and would be 0 > > is also contradictory. > > I don't understand this sentence. The sender's octet count does not > include padding octets, so for implementations that do not send > padding the number of excluded padding octets is zero, but that does > not form any contradiction. > > > Please read and re read the errata if required. > > > > Please advise. ( intelligently ) > > I suggest that careful reading and understanding of RFC 3550 is what > is required here. > > -- Steve > --001a1137fa6e6f9eef0509d6ae13 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear Mr. Casner / Audio Video Working Group.

Since= rely thank you for responding in a manner which clearly shows that you have= taken the time to acknowledge my inquiry. I know my previous emails were h= astily written and this one is probably not much better but I will endeavor= to express my concerns and points and then in summary ask you respond at l= east once again.

I would like to first start of by= saying that if I did have functions which are not specified they would not= be standard and hence not relevant for errata, the reason I wrote this err= ata is because I know that others have also had issues when reading that se= ntence (and multiple others in the Rtp RFC [3550]) and I would like to clar= ify if nothing else why I believe it is errata and why it can potentially b= e a security risk.

I don't mean to pick apart = your answer but I would like to take some of your response and ensure I und= erstand it correctly.

"
Let me clarify.=C2=A0 When we wrote that = sentence, we were stating why this
field was included.= =C2=A0=C2=A0
=
It was i= ncluded so that receivers would be able=C2=A0to know the sender's average payload data rate ov= er various time=C2=A0in= tervals by taking the value of this field from two sender reports=C2=A0and dividing by the differe= nce in time of the two sender reports.=C2=A0=C2=A0

The=C2=A0receiver might want to compare that result with the average= of the=C2=A0data as re= ceived (perhaps with some losses).
"
Advising by your statement, particularly the bit about how one= could possibly calculate the data rate over various time intervals, if I w= ere to disagree I would first have to ascertain the exact meaning of such a= term [payload data rate] thus first we must look at your wording, "sender's average payload dat= a rate".

To answer this, and some of t= he latter questions in your email.

What is a paylo= ad before we can talk about it's data rate? Well it is EVERYTHING that = is not the header.

What is the header? The header = (in terms of Rtp Packets) consists of the first 3 words (12 octets) which i= ndicate the version, padding, extension, contributing source count, payload= type, marker, sequence number, ssrc and timestamp.

Before I continue my arguement I will make a statement to show my line of= thinking;

Since each transmission of a "vali= d" rtp packet might consist of ONLY a header the payload size in such = a case would be 0.

A valid rtp packet may have a c= ontributing source counter <=3D 15, this implies that another csrc words= following the 12 required header octets.

A valid = rtp packet may have an extension, when present will follow immediately afte= r the csrc words indicated by the csrc nibble in the header.

=
A valid rtp packet may contain padding, when present it will fol= low any "payload data" and such padding must define a count which= is set in the final octet of the raw binary sequence which is defined as t= he rtp packet.

Because of the above given restrain= ts it can be seen that a receiver must have a valid RTP Header consisting o= f 12 octets to properly determine if the data received is valid / complete.=

Given those notions I will continue my arguments;=

While the header is technically extended by the p= resence of csrc, extension and the payload is proceeded by padding it makes= sense to think of them as contained in the payload section and such calcul= ations regarding their length (especially padding) can only be made after r= eception of at least 12 octets.

No matter if RTP Lite is used and the R= tp Header is not 12 octets or ROHC is employed and the header is not 12 oct= ets, and thus may be re-constructed or de-compressed the amount of header b= ytes can explicitly be calculated to 12 octets.

Thus any time the 'sender's packet count' increases one receiver can multip= ly that number [sender's packet count] by 12 to receive the amount of bytes related t= o rtp headers in transmissions, this would reveal a payload data rate of 0 = in such cases as the sender is sending "rtp header" only packets = to a receiver.

Taking the same example, if I add ONLY padding to the pa= yload and I followed your recommendation I would still have data rate of 0 = in such a case.

The same would apply for csrc and = extensions of combinations of all 3 regardless of their length and contribu= tion to the overall rate of data (and their subsequent effects on the netwo= rk [regardless how small they are]).

When middle b= oxes receive rtp packets and remove extensions or a mixer combined several = sources and indicates so in the csrc field the payload data rate technicall= y doesn't change but the ov= erall data rate does, while when using your recommended count the receiver = will not be able to determine if the path between the two changes due to a = mixer or middle box performing any modification of the data packets from th= e sender because the data is "hidden" using your recommended coun= t. While this may be desirable for some reasons as it would keep the size t= he same and the count the same, it removes information which would be able = to be used for various purposes such as determining if alternates routes ar= e followed etc; while a receiver is very well able to keep on their own of the amo= unt of total bytes they are receiving, and they as well can calculate the amount o= f padding and bytes related to csrc, extensions the problem arises if and w= hen packets are lost.

In such a case the receiver = will not be able to calculate the amount of data or other bytes because the= packet was not received, while the standard allows for also calculating ho= w much was lost there needs to be a reference point; This is where <= /font>[sender's packet c= ount] is needed and using it one can then indicate roughly how many bytes w= ere missing using the amount of packets indicated there minus the amount re= ceived to determine the exact amount of packets lost (but I suppose would n= ot be needed if you were JUST determining payload data rate, it would simpl= y be lower or higher given the two differences in the [senders octet count]= value and the time received).

Final= ly, the security risk of indicating the amount of bytes related to payload = data (especially considering now your explicitly stating to remove the exte= nsion and csrc data from) versus just bytes for counting purposes is simply= this.

Over a time (regardless if padding only pac= kets are sent or not) one can quickly determine if extensions, csrc or padd= ing is then in used in rtp just by monitoring the value in the senders repo= rt versus what was actually sent on the wire.

This= also reveals the=C2=A0congruence=C2=A0of the padding with respect to the p= ayload, and thus reduces complexity in determining the key (by knowing the = padding length using it to lower the amount of attempts required to derive = the correct key) by the amount of bytes not relevant to the portion being c= iphered.

Even though the extension and csrc are pr= obably encrypted =C2=A0the senders octet count again reveals the amount of = bytes only related to DATA so the length of these values can be extracted a= nd thus the amount of data which is probably the same and in any such case = not related to the payload can thus be derived and used to shorten the amou= nt of time in deriving a correct key.

With my prop= osed changes (which is simply just using the entire length of the binary pa= yload - 12 for the header length) one will make the derivation of bytes rel= ated to csrc / extension and padding much more difficult if not impossible = to derive.

It will also increase the accuracy of y= our given calculation because more bytes are being included in the value wh= ich allow a higher degree of accuracy when related to the other factors giv= en (e.g. jitter takes into account the whole packet, not just the payload d= ata rate) It is important to realize that no distinction should be made aft= er transport of the "rate" with anything other than whole and val= id packets because of middle boxes and other such devices (mixers) which ma= y alter the end contents of the packet, and by doing so does not break comp= atibility in the standard only allows for more accurate and useful informat= ion to be derived without chaining anything besides removing additional sub= traction from a place where is is not required and poses no benefit and cit= ing my explanations thus constitutes it as errata from my perspective.

In short, it makes sense to use the property as it was= named and give the receiver the ability to determine average / total or wh= atever else they want to by simply giving them the information as required,= removing information serves no positive purpose in this case and let me al= so point out that not many (if not all) implementations I can find already = are just giving the "payload" count, there are very very few whic= h actually take into account extensions and csrcs and slightly more that ac= count for padding including the software 'rtp tools' which was deve= loped by Mr.=C2=A0Sch= ulzrinne.

This will actually make software = existing more correct in those cases while not changing anything in the sta= ndard although that is not a reason to change it I hope you also can see th= ere is no negative effect with my proposed change, e.g. if a person forgets= to set extension, csrc or padding my implementation will see no different = but yours will.

If your application changes to inc= lude the count as I indicated and performs the same calculations it perform= s today, (taking padding into account as well as extension and csrc) it wil= l not change the result of any existing algorithm.

Therefore I strongly recommend that you base your decision on those points= and additionally the fact it weakens security is an issue as well.

If you are going to reject it I would at least like an in= dication of WHY it needs to be rejected.

E.g. it w= ould break this or that as well as an brief explanation.

If no such argument can be made on how it will cause a problem with = existing implementations then then how can one argue against it especially = considering the security questions which I have given?

=
I at the very least expect the wording to changed to indicate explicit= ly that the extension, csrc should also not be included in the count.
=

Lastly, what about the errata related to RFC2435 and RF= C2326 which I have submitted?

They have not been r= esponded to, are they being looked into?

Sincerely= ,
Julius



=

On Mon, Dec 8, 20= 14 at 5:36 PM, Stephen Casner <casner@acm.org> wrote:
On Fri, 5 Dec 2014, Julius Friedm= an wrote:

> Hello All.
>
> There is definitely some confusion related to the errata I submitted f= or
> RFC3550.

I believe the confusion is within your interpretation of the standar= d,
not in our interpretation of your proposed errata.=C2=A0 Perhaps you would<= br> like RTP to have some functions that are different than those that
were specified, but those do not constitute errata.

> The RFC clearly states:
>
> sender's octet count: 32 bits
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The total number of payload octets (i.e., no= t including header or
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0padding) transmitted in RTP data packets by = the sender since
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0starting transmission up until the time this= SR packet was
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0generated.=C2=A0 The count SHOULD be reset i= f the sender changes its
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0SSRC identifier.=C2=A0 This field can be use= d to estimate the average
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0payload data rate.
>
> Just because it CAN be used for an average does not mean it should.
Let me clarify.=C2=A0 When we wrote that sentence, we were stating w= hy this
field was included.=C2=A0 It was included so that receivers would be able to know the sender's average payload data rate over various time
intervals by taking the value of this field from two sender reports
and dividing by the difference in time of the two sender reports.=C2=A0 The=
receiver might want to compare that result with the average of the
data as received (perhaps with some losses).

> Further it is the total number of octets in the payload besides the > header because the header is always 12 octets.
>
> Since csrc and extension octets are included then padding should be > also.

The CSRC and extension octets part of the RTP header and the phrase<= br> "not including header" means that they would not be included in t= he
sender's octet count.=C2=A0 What text in RFC 3550 led you to believe th= at
the header is always just the first 12 octets and that therefore the
CSRC and extension octets would be included in the sender's octet
count?

> Since rtcp also reflects the count with padding this is obviously
> correct.

I am not sure what you are referring to here.=C2=A0 In another email= you
said "Rtcp counters include this value anyway."=C2=A0 What RTCP c= ounters
include a count of padding bytes?=C2=A0 Perhaps you are referring to the fact that the legnth field in the RTCP header includes padding on the
RTCP compound packet.=C2=A0 That is irrelevant to the question of whether the sender's octet count, which is a count of payload octets, should or should not include padding octets.

> Any padding only packet would not change the counter for rtp and is > thus a security issue as well as a redundantly conveyed piece of
> information because each packet contains the number of padding bytes > which can be accounted for in the implementation when required.

I do not see a security issue.=C2=A0 Please explain how there would = be an
added security risk for an application that does send RTP data packets
with padding compared to an application does does not send RTP data
packets with padding, even if sometimes those applications send RTP
data packets containing no payload data.

The sender's octet count is an aggregate count of the payload octets over some number, often a large number, of RTP data packets.=C2=A0 If the receiver gets all of the data packets with no loss, then that same
count could be calculated.=C2=A0 However, some packets may be lost.=C2=A0 R= TP is
designed to help implementations be tolerant of packet loss.

> To account for padding when padding is not required and would be 0
> is also contradictory.

I don't understand this sentence.=C2=A0 The sender's octet c= ount does not
include padding octets, so for implementations that do not send
padding the number of excluded padding octets is zero, but that does
not form any contradiction.

> Please read and re read the errata if required.
>
> Please advise.=C2=A0 ( intelligently )

I suggest that careful reading and understanding of RFC 3550 is what=
is required here.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 -- Steve

--001a1137fa6e6f9eef0509d6ae13-- From nobody Tue Dec 9 23:51:06 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69C3E1A1A7A for ; Tue, 9 Dec 2014 23:51:05 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cySBRKB4pBfx for ; Tue, 9 Dec 2014 23:51:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-la0-x231.google.com (mail-la0-x231.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c03::231]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 942501A6F21 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 2014 23:51:02 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-la0-f49.google.com with SMTP id hs14so1930595lab.36 for ; Tue, 09 Dec 2014 23:51:00 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=g4lXz+dbXLUS/cYt2+1qNWCKwptDi5YIdkT2XlIYtfk=; b=FkmUXdYnP/FnVrpPQ/wDo0hIXojo8JpotGGGkIdwKZvd4gz5btbgetwqQ3ix1Crs42 TYxbWP+54mYDzWM6K9rxc37ouEPHk1CfX+fIZoESNvloysfa9U9iIHAdRNzYVMSeZbFw q+0+kNsIDVSFoTLs2k1PcGaKaHrQv1Cc9XBoKyCCQTl35AHZdAK6oZBKKMAGxCLv0KRn cbKUD0z5cgJhoVKnkhGKU1eFjuKpORUgEhudYc6dZUfAc0rHcCu0I1es0lkD6HSMmd5K 9aVVsiPTen49z/Q/BvaA8SnWM/YBnQBHqAhe0I6tZ/0al59xX3RxvnUMCSKsFNgyOEc7 14kg== X-Received: by 10.152.7.180 with SMTP id k20mr2745038laa.4.1418197860894; Tue, 09 Dec 2014 23:51:00 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.112.25.5 with HTTP; Tue, 9 Dec 2014 23:50:40 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <85044C72-7CEB-44F1-987C-AADB16FBCCB0@cisco.com> References: <03bc01d00080$ac035da0$040a18e0$@gmail.com> <85044C72-7CEB-44F1-987C-AADB16FBCCB0@cisco.com> From: Varun Singh Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2014 09:50:40 +0200 Message-ID: To: Roni Even Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/avt/WunFzhxjWcxwz2KIMpreOK4BvS4 Cc: Magnus Westerlund , "avt@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [AVTCORE] Call for adopting draft-singh-avtcore-mprtp-10 X-BeenThere: avt@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2014 07:51:05 -0000 As proponents of the draft, we will continue to update it based WG feedback= . Regards, Varun On Thu, Dec 4, 2014 at 2:03 AM, =F0=9F=94=93Dan Wing wrot= e: > Aloha (just returned from my vacation), > > I support adoption of MPRTP. The concept was great with -00, and the doc= ument has matured significantly in the meantime. > > -d > > On Nov 14, 2014, at 7:02 PM, Roni Even wrote: > >> Hi, >> This is a call to adopt draft-singh-avtcore-mprtp-10 to address the new = milestone >> Nov 2015 - Submit Multipath RTP as experimental RFC >> >> There was already support to adopt it but this email is to verify the su= pport >> >> Please provide any view to the list by November 25th >> >> >> Thanks >> Roni Even >> AVTcore co-chair >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance >> avt@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avt > > _______________________________________________ > Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance > avt@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avt --=20 http://www.netlab.tkk.fi/~varun/ From nobody Wed Dec 10 10:17:26 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7D4C1A8943 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 2014 10:17:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.935 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.935 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cuLqvnG5A257 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 2014 10:17:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from d.mail.sonic.net (d.mail.sonic.net [64.142.111.50]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0E47F1A8949 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 2014 10:17:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from auge (75-25-120-141.lightspeed.snvaca.sbcglobal.net [75.25.120.141]) (authenticated bits=0) by d.mail.sonic.net (8.14.9/8.14.9) with ESMTP id sBAIH6LA009081 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Wed, 10 Dec 2014 10:17:07 -0800 Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2014 10:17:06 -0800 (PST) From: Stephen Casner To: Julius Friedman In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: User-Agent: Alpine 2.19.9991 (OSX 64 2014-05-31) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Sonic-CAuth: UmFuZG9tSVZeLjDJ31xBJFA9D3MYtKMiQVis6pi0F3S6ahFM26lqXLII7Ba5by65WgYdLKZxJ+sz/iyNdZO0wkg0IDrIkMeG X-Sonic-ID: C;uF3Lv5iA5BG/XVG2qJ4NOg== M;DiHzv5iA5BG/XVG2qJ4NOg== X-Sonic-Spam-Details: 0.0/5.0 by cerberusd Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/avt/73caxxtTyQFcLzalLSCuCBv2bMA Cc: avt@ietf.org Subject: Re: [AVTCORE] Errata 4192 RFC 3550 X-BeenThere: avt@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2014 18:17:17 -0000 Julius, You are contemplating reasons for having the SR packet convey different information than is currently part of the design. You could propose that RTP be modified to create a new version, or you could propose a profile of RTP that extends the SR packet. However, you have not identified an error in RFC 3550. I believe it is not necessary to add any text clarifying the content of the sender's octet count because the definition of the RTP header clearly shows that the CSRC words are included. The header extension, by its very name, indicates that it is part of header, and this is reinforced by the fact that it is positioned between the SSRC and the CSRC. Therefore, I recommend that your proposed erratum be rejected. I have not read the errata related to RFC2435 and RFC2326 as I am not an author of those RFCs. This is my last message on the topic. -- Steve From nobody Wed Dec 10 10:47:51 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF11E1A8A17 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 2014 10:47:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mAV8l6_KUuI2 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 2014 10:47:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pd0-x22a.google.com (mail-pd0-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c02::22a]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B406C1A9068 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 2014 10:45:34 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pd0-f170.google.com with SMTP id v10so3306350pde.29 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 2014 10:45:34 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=vkTmgp7Kwk1Da28ijLMax8FKCH/eMVCbJptdNb7LdZ0=; b=LjvJHdHvmh2M7tFH/+VG1Vnx65s/xig0pMTnSrdQDQRI3YQg0uPPMCfXTSDV1wojcc QAmTFasumGc+KrOlT3cL7FVyGoR50LvTkl736/jQQA2wq7YhdU6lkgMiBrb5NRHEiYrN R2+Z4Nr02ziRHvwT+BAeNofNfAow3kQXzeUzGORcNftSTQbpAN9c9yRQrsSan5MLnZ1I dhSUlD+38R1DqcDodMbfTpHvvrkV+/VlkSdNZMgaXXA+zndE7FIfdiPyVCpvFCQJsMU2 Z6RroMTLNm9MvhpW820xdph++7HtljkBGB3HdO/SZIbCBhk0KoTW2aDhOh+ezW9jJgPv 3Www== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.66.122.100 with SMTP id lr4mr9861809pab.56.1418237133717; Wed, 10 Dec 2014 10:45:33 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.70.117.99 with HTTP; Wed, 10 Dec 2014 10:45:33 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2014 13:45:33 -0500 Message-ID: From: Julius Friedman To: Stephen Casner , avt@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b2e0de79009530509e11093 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/avt/dzqHdsNEPpoff5asvUhQhPQgx7U Subject: Re: [AVTCORE] Errata 4192 RFC 3550 X-BeenThere: avt@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2014 18:47:47 -0000 --047d7b2e0de79009530509e11093 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Thank you for your "suggestions" and your response. It is not my intention to argue but if you would be so kind as to PLEASE acknowledge this email or have another member acknowledge it I would be very appreciative and I do believe that it would benefit the community as a whole. It is unfortunate you see things as such because clearly your calculation is then magically determining your defined payload data rate using the time including padding, csrc and extensions when this is in fact not your intention. Beliefs are not really relevant here, while I believe quite a few things the science and the math speaks for itself. The loss of information and apparent mis-calculation of data rate in all circumstances as well as unnecessary subtraction which is revealing information which is not really necessary to reveal at such a level is more then a belief it is a fact. Since beliefs are being conveyed, I do believe since you or no one else seems to be able to indicate what this "change" breaks, when I have easily determined several things which can be better observed (while actually allowing your "data rate" calculation with the extra information) then something MUST occur, either change the name of the property to indicate payload octets or accept my suggestion because it proposes no change that would effect any calculations, only fix calculations existing even your own by your own definition not mine. The error is that "Jitter" and other times includes those values in the calculated value anyway, e.g. the data delay and other rates cannot be determined without knowing the amount of bytes actually sent thus this number is providing something which is not what is indicated and SHOULD be changed either name wise to indicate your "logic" or my way to support the name and use of it and correct existing implementations in use without changing their code. I do have proposals for RTP Version 3 as a special profile would not fix this issue which needs to be addressed before we can move onto version 3 unless you would like to acknowledge that this standard has ambiguous terminology and a new version is required. I actually have already tested a version 3 prototype and would be happy to share implementation details but I need to have my other erratta checked first so I can ensure this as well as that is on the correct train of thought. An extension would be outside the scope of this issue because the change would need to occur at the client level, although it could be done it would be more cumbersome and break the chain of responsibility of the RtpClient which is already required to handle things like STUN, TCP ALF etc, although I will say my version 3 prototype is version 2 compatible with (de)muxing and extensions and requires a version 2 packet with an extension. The version 3 updates really relate to a few other things which I will not endeavor into a tangent about since they are not relevant to this discussion. I have a few other issues I would also like to address. Padding, when it is used it is only used for encryption as packetization and rtcp have their own mechanisms when required for such. When a block is transformed for encryption if the padding used is removed there is no change in the length of the payload and thus padding would not be set in such an encryption mechanism. E.g. a encryption which has extra data added which is removed totally before decoding the packet. Lastly when padding is used there is no way to determine if the packet has been completely received if the encryption uses random data as padding and the last byte becomes truncated, also when using 0 padded data it is possible to incorrectly detect padding if using that method because 0 data could occur in the payload. Thus I suggest that the location of padding be changed to be directly after the extension, this would constitute errata. If such a change is made then I would be happy to change the implementation as a ROUGH calculation would then be determinable given your variables because the overhead would be able to be determined off the "top" of the packet and reliably without errors of mis-calculating it's size. Given these notions what is your response? Should a vote be taken? I do believe I am being flexible and I do believe I have highlighted enough reasons to change the location of the padding and make my previous errata accepted but either will suffice at this point. Thank you as well as the members for your "time" and "effort" in this matter. Sincerely, Julius Richard Friedman. On Mon, Dec 8, 2014 at 5:36 PM, Stephen Casner wrote: > On Fri, 5 Dec 2014, Julius Friedman wrote: > > > Hello All. > > > > There is definitely some confusion related to the errata I submitted for > > RFC3550. > > I believe the confusion is within your interpretation of the standard, > not in our interpretation of your proposed errata. Perhaps you would > like RTP to have some functions that are different than those that > were specified, but those do not constitute errata. > > > The RFC clearly states: > > > > sender's octet count: 32 bits > > The total number of payload octets (i.e., not including header or > > padding) transmitted in RTP data packets by the sender since > > starting transmission up until the time this SR packet was > > generated. The count SHOULD be reset if the sender changes its > > SSRC identifier. This field can be used to estimate the average > > payload data rate. > > > > Just because it CAN be used for an average does not mean it should. > > Let me clarify. When we wrote that sentence, we were stating why this > field was included. It was included so that receivers would be able > to know the sender's average payload data rate over various time > intervals by taking the value of this field from two sender reports > and dividing by the difference in time of the two sender reports. The > receiver might want to compare that result with the average of the > data as received (perhaps with some losses). > > > Further it is the total number of octets in the payload besides the > > header because the header is always 12 octets. > > > > Since csrc and extension octets are included then padding should be > > also. > > The CSRC and extension octets part of the RTP header and the phrase > "not including header" means that they would not be included in the > sender's octet count. What text in RFC 3550 led you to believe that > the header is always just the first 12 octets and that therefore the > CSRC and extension octets would be included in the sender's octet > count? > > > Since rtcp also reflects the count with padding this is obviously > > correct. > > I am not sure what you are referring to here. In another email you > said "Rtcp counters include this value anyway." What RTCP counters > include a count of padding bytes? Perhaps you are referring to the > fact that the legnth field in the RTCP header includes padding on the > RTCP compound packet. That is irrelevant to the question of whether > the sender's octet count, which is a count of payload octets, should > or should not include padding octets. > > > Any padding only packet would not change the counter for rtp and is > > thus a security issue as well as a redundantly conveyed piece of > > information because each packet contains the number of padding bytes > > which can be accounted for in the implementation when required. > > I do not see a security issue. Please explain how there would be an > added security risk for an application that does send RTP data packets > with padding compared to an application does does not send RTP data > packets with padding, even if sometimes those applications send RTP > data packets containing no payload data. > > The sender's octet count is an aggregate count of the payload octets > over some number, often a large number, of RTP data packets. If the > receiver gets all of the data packets with no loss, then that same > count could be calculated. However, some packets may be lost. RTP is > designed to help implementations be tolerant of packet loss. > > > To account for padding when padding is not required and would be 0 > > is also contradictory. > > I don't understand this sentence. The sender's octet count does not > include padding octets, so for implementations that do not send > padding the number of excluded padding octets is zero, but that does > not form any contradiction. > > > Please read and re read the errata if required. > > > > Please advise. ( intelligently ) > > I suggest that careful reading and understanding of RFC 3550 is what > is required here. > > -- Steve > --047d7b2e0de79009530509e11093 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thank you for your "suggestions" and your respon= se.

It is not my intention to argue but if you would be = so kind as to PLEASE acknowledge this email or have another member acknowle= dge it I would be very appreciative and I do believe that it would benefit = the community as a whole.

It is unfortunate yo= u see things as such because clearly your calculation is then magically det= ermining your defined payload data rate using the time including padding, c= src and extensions when this is in fact not your intention.

<= /div>
Beliefs are not really relevant here, while I believe quite a few= things the science and the math speaks for itself. The loss of information= and apparent mis-calculation of data rate in all circumstances as well as = unnecessary subtraction which is revealing information which is not really = necessary to reveal at such a level is more then a belief it is a fact.=C2= =A0

Since beliefs are being conveyed, I do believe= since you or no one else seems to be able to indicate what this "chan= ge" breaks, when I have easily determined several things which can be = better observed (while actually allowing your "data rate" calcula= tion with the extra information) then something MUST occur, either change t= he name of the property to indicate payload octets or accept my suggestion = because it proposes no change that would effect any calculations, only fix = calculations existing even your own by your own definition not mine.
<= div>
The error is that "Jitter" and other times inc= ludes those values in the calculated value anyway, e.g. the data =C2=A0dela= y and other rates cannot be determined without knowing the amount of bytes = actually sent thus this number is providing something which is not what is = indicated and SHOULD be changed either name wise to indicate your "log= ic" or my way to support the name and use of it and correct existing i= mplementations in use without changing their code.

I do have proposals for RTP Version 3 as a special profile would not fix t= his issue which needs to be addressed before we can move onto version 3 unl= ess you would like to acknowledge that this standard has ambiguous terminol= ogy and a new version is required. I actually have already tested a version= 3 prototype and would be happy to share implementation details but I need = to have my other erratta checked first so I can ensure this as well as that= is on the correct train of thought.

An extension = would be outside the scope of this issue because the change would need to o= ccur at the client level, although it could be done it would be more cumber= some and break the chain of responsibility of the RtpClient which is alread= y required to handle things like STUN, TCP ALF etc, although I will say my = version 3 prototype is version 2 compatible with (de)muxing and extensions = and requires a version 2 packet with an extension.

The version 3 updates really relate to a few other things which I will not= endeavor into a tangent about since they are not relevant to this discussi= on.

I have a few other issues I would also like to= address.

Padding, when it is used it is only used= for encryption as packetization and rtcp have their own mechanisms when re= quired for such. When a block is transformed for encryption if the padding = used is removed there is no change in the length of the payload and thus pa= dding would not be set in such an encryption mechanism.

E.g. a encryption which has extra data added which is removed totally= before decoding the packet.

Lastly when padding i= s used there is no way to determine if the packet has been completely recei= ved if the encryption uses random data as padding and the last byte becomes= truncated, also when using 0 padded data it is possible to incorrectly det= ect padding if using that method because 0 data could occur in the payload.=

Thus I suggest that the location of padding be ch= anged to be directly after the extension, this would constitute errata.

If such a change is made then I would be happy to cha= nge the implementation as a ROUGH calculation would then be determinable gi= ven your variables because the overhead would be able to be determined off = the "top" of the packet and reliably without errors of mis-calcul= ating it's size.

Given these notions what is y= our response?

Should a vote be taken?
I do believe I am being flexible and I do believe I have highl= ighted enough reasons to change the location of the padding and make my pre= vious errata accepted but either will suffice at this point.

=
Thank you as well as the members for your "time" and &= quot;effort" in this matter.

Sincerely,
=
Julius Richard Friedman.


On Mon, Dec 8, 2014 at 5:36 PM, Step= hen Casner <casner@acm.org> wrote:
On Fri, 5 Dec 2014, Julius Friedman wrote:

> Hello All.
>
> There is definitely some confusion related to the errata I submitted f= or
> RFC3550.

I believe the confusion is within your interpretation of the standar= d,
not in our interpretation of your proposed errata.=C2=A0 Perhaps you would<= br> like RTP to have some functions that are different than those that
were specified, but those do not constitute errata.

> The RFC clearly states:
>
> sender's octet count: 32 bits
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The total number of payload octets (i.e., no= t including header or
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0padding) transmitted in RTP data packets by = the sender since
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0starting transmission up until the time this= SR packet was
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0generated.=C2=A0 The count SHOULD be reset i= f the sender changes its
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0SSRC identifier.=C2=A0 This field can be use= d to estimate the average
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0payload data rate.
>
> Just because it CAN be used for an average does not mean it should.
Let me clarify.=C2=A0 When we wrote that sentence, we were stating w= hy this
field was included.=C2=A0 It was included so that receivers would be able to know the sender's average payload data rate over various time
intervals by taking the value of this field from two sender reports
and dividing by the difference in time of the two sender reports.=C2=A0 The=
receiver might want to compare that result with the average of the
data as received (perhaps with some losses).

> Further it is the total number of octets in the payload besides the > header because the header is always 12 octets.
>
> Since csrc and extension octets are included then padding should be > also.

The CSRC and extension octets part of the RTP header and the phrase<= br> "not including header" means that they would not be included in t= he
sender's octet count.=C2=A0 What text in RFC 3550 led you to believe th= at
the header is always just the first 12 octets and that therefore the
CSRC and extension octets would be included in the sender's octet
count?

> Since rtcp also reflects the count with padding this is obviously
> correct.

I am not sure what you are referring to here.=C2=A0 In another email= you
said "Rtcp counters include this value anyway."=C2=A0 What RTCP c= ounters
include a count of padding bytes?=C2=A0 Perhaps you are referring to the fact that the legnth field in the RTCP header includes padding on the
RTCP compound packet.=C2=A0 That is irrelevant to the question of whether the sender's octet count, which is a count of payload octets, should or should not include padding octets.

> Any padding only packet would not change the counter for rtp and is > thus a security issue as well as a redundantly conveyed piece of
> information because each packet contains the number of padding bytes > which can be accounted for in the implementation when required.

I do not see a security issue.=C2=A0 Please explain how there would = be an
added security risk for an application that does send RTP data packets
with padding compared to an application does does not send RTP data
packets with padding, even if sometimes those applications send RTP
data packets containing no payload data.

The sender's octet count is an aggregate count of the payload octets over some number, often a large number, of RTP data packets.=C2=A0 If the receiver gets all of the data packets with no loss, then that same
count could be calculated.=C2=A0 However, some packets may be lost.=C2=A0 R= TP is
designed to help implementations be tolerant of packet loss.

> To account for padding when padding is not required and would be 0
> is also contradictory.

I don't understand this sentence.=C2=A0 The sender's octet c= ount does not
include padding octets, so for implementations that do not send
padding the number of excluded padding octets is zero, but that does
not form any contradiction.

> Please read and re read the errata if required.
>
> Please advise.=C2=A0 ( intelligently )

I suggest that careful reading and understanding of RFC 3550 is what=
is required here.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 -- Steve

--047d7b2e0de79009530509e11093-- From nobody Wed Dec 10 10:50:34 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E4411A1B57 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 2014 10:50:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nav3Z9oa6_25 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 2014 10:50:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ig0-x22e.google.com (mail-ig0-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c05::22e]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2D69E1A1AA7 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 2014 10:50:27 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ig0-f174.google.com with SMTP id hn15so6965954igb.13 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 2014 10:50:26 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=IXJBtHghvcpk5iFdwfVSBMrTj2wanyFhesBdeT4rLp4=; b=mhrXRD2ZfrcDhm32FBCEKRjavSyBjsft2+TUnLRqcGSLYLZENSNdx8lS8VNrkkNrbo jpeqzo7cmbKvtSjgg5zSYrSA12pdtIEaIG6Vbgi/XkVfjAK4Pkjc8Uii9w/iA86jVrcq GXs6PpJCqiwI8VDwmU10416eSDRvRVYIJxznyaD30BGa7sOM5SROD7Bgok6KUuNAmiUw x+Q7SlGeOB2cnGfQTtLUUCRvxh1zuCjPKt0Z1j5/uMM0yTabEyCZgILAA4u7Kde0W2m7 B5GnuXEqG90CEa5HTIJgGKEQXCiSIn2JycobFjOH5b2uxP2gwQCaynfZI9zSIrxTcmMt X0Gg== X-Received: by 10.107.10.207 with SMTP id 76mr323780iok.78.1418237426300; Wed, 10 Dec 2014 10:50:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.0.101] ([216.254.167.19]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id l70sm2696928iol.42.2014.12.10.10.50.25 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 10 Dec 2014 10:50:26 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <548895EA.3050108@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2014 13:50:18 -0500 From: Tom Taylor User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: avt@ietf.org, Julius Friedman References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/avt/nmvLOVbWScCpUQzDnmEzP3YjdMY Subject: Re: [AVTCORE] Errata 4192 RFC 3550 X-BeenThere: avt@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2014 18:50:33 -0000 Stephen's point is that you are proposing a protocol change. That cannot be done by way of an erratum. If you want to write an Internet Draft with your proposals, they can be debated. I wonder if you could use the XR capability to get the information you want? Tom Taylor On 10/12/2014 1:22 AM, Julius Friedman wrote: > Dear Mr. Casner / Audio Video Working Group. > > Sincerely thank you for responding in a manner which clearly shows that you > have taken the time to acknowledge my inquiry. I know my previous emails > were hastily written and this one is probably not much better but I will > endeavor to express my concerns and points and then in summary ask you > respond at least once again. > > I would like to first start of by saying that if I did have functions which > are not specified they would not be standard and hence not relevant for > errata, the reason I wrote this errata is because I know that others have > also had issues when reading that sentence (and multiple others in the Rtp > RFC [3550]) and I would like to clarify if nothing else why I believe it is > errata and why it can potentially be a security risk. >... From nobody Wed Dec 10 11:00:33 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2B1A1A8A87 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 2014 11:00:31 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rVAHktc0c4J9 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 2014 11:00:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pd0-x233.google.com (mail-pd0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c02::233]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 42DC11A6EFC for ; Wed, 10 Dec 2014 11:00:29 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pd0-f179.google.com with SMTP id fp1so3293352pdb.24 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 2014 11:00:28 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=pRGjLHWeOCA7C4kgtZcRfSfbVWPjmXboiHh9AJZbvZk=; b=nxsndNt20+Qg3kWzkd2PLwjt7uXFDgrbRTuWj8N1+1JQyUH3qHumYif5p7yABg8g1l hS8Xz79buzfle+CKWDL51qFHBCFNRsp1fwXR3HW6chDQCxX6fDkN766wvSAPmM76h8LN izxp0/J54OIYbRIGOYoP2zNu3D48ztAoE4RmbyXdEFfy1yE/CpPaGZzJDW3NRFQ6j9sL PIHGh0UQYUtFHeqYxkvVbZn8q5tc3+MtSocfvLkzc7XbZ59jFvodfsNePK9othSPkJkD ep1z/iU5dN5+OHaef/oeV4VG/ThgmoUmONzYEQwSStHV5NZ5LNTppnWbmECwFLwHySCM 4SbA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.70.43.229 with SMTP id z5mr9733699pdl.25.1418238027102; Wed, 10 Dec 2014 11:00:27 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.70.117.99 with HTTP; Wed, 10 Dec 2014 11:00:27 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <548895EA.3050108@gmail.com> References: <548895EA.3050108@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2014 14:00:27 -0500 Message-ID: From: Julius Friedman To: Tom Taylor , avt@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7bfeb18ad000240509e14501 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/avt/FX3fc2wVbcnbnGKdHswk-IFeyjY Subject: Re: [AVTCORE] Errata 4192 RFC 3550 X-BeenThere: avt@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2014 19:00:31 -0000 --047d7bfeb18ad000240509e14501 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Thank you Mr. Taylor. The bottom line is that even given the verbiage existing that it is simply invalid to calculate the rate of just the payload using the time including other data. That itself is errata. If the change is made as I suggested then existing hardware (even if it not updated with the new logic) will be able to be at least detected using my change. Some implementations already use this information in the count anyway and would thus be valid instead of invalid (with no change). There are bigger fish to fry such as the location and content of the padding, of which the location is the most important for detection of completion of the packet. We need to address one or the other and then it can validate your equations existing (but would still require a change to the location of the offset of the padding) or as I suggested for this errata to change the wording or the name. Both are really in order it's just a matter of how its done and not hastily but after consideration I would suggest that if "compatibility" with existing hardware is most important then to update just the name and indicate my errata as a name change only and why so that it can be adjusted for as best as possible where required; then to file more errata to change the location of the padding or just start work on a new version of the rtp standard with ambiguous definitions removed. Thank you for your time and effort and I look forward to your dialog in this matter! Can you also please check my RFC2435 Errata and RFC2326 Errata so I can discuss those as well? Sincerely, Julius Richard Friedman On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 1:50 PM, Tom Taylor wrote: > Stephen's point is that you are proposing a protocol change. That cannot > be done by way of an erratum. If you want to write an Internet Draft with > your proposals, they can be debated. I wonder if you could use the XR > capability to get the information you want? > > Tom Taylor > > On 10/12/2014 1:22 AM, Julius Friedman wrote: > >> Dear Mr. Casner / Audio Video Working Group. >> >> Sincerely thank you for responding in a manner which clearly shows that >> you >> have taken the time to acknowledge my inquiry. I know my previous emails >> were hastily written and this one is probably not much better but I will >> endeavor to express my concerns and points and then in summary ask you >> respond at least once again. >> >> I would like to first start of by saying that if I did have functions >> which >> are not specified they would not be standard and hence not relevant for >> errata, the reason I wrote this errata is because I know that others have >> also had issues when reading that sentence (and multiple others in the Rtp >> RFC [3550]) and I would like to clarify if nothing else why I believe it >> is >> errata and why it can potentially be a security risk. >> ... >> > --047d7bfeb18ad000240509e14501 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thank you Mr. Taylor.

The bottom line i= s that even given the verbiage existing that it is simply invalid to calcul= ate the rate of just the payload using the time including other data.
=

That itself is errata.

If the = change is made as I suggested then existing hardware (even if it not update= d with the new logic) will be able to be at least detected using my change.=

Some implementations already use this informa= tion in the count anyway and would thus be valid instead of invalid (with n= o change).

There are bigger fish to fry such as th= e location and content of the padding, of which the location is the most im= portant for detection of completion of the packet.

We need to address one or the other and then it can validate your equation= s existing (but would still require a change to the location of the offset = of the padding) or as I suggested for this errata to change the wording or = the name.

Both are really in order it's just a= matter of how its done and not hastily but after consideration I would sug= gest that if "compatibility" with existing hardware is most impor= tant then to update just the name and indicate my errata as a name change o= nly and why so that it can be adjusted for as best as possible where requir= ed; then to file more errata to change the location of the padding or just = start work on a new version of the rtp standard with ambiguous definitions = removed.

Thank you for your time and effort and I = look forward to your dialog in this matter!

Can yo= u also please check my RFC2435 Errata and RFC2326 Errata so I can discuss t= hose as well?

Sincerely,
Julius Richard = Friedman

On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 1:50 PM, Tom Taylor <tom.taylor.stds@gm= ail.com> wrote:
Stephen'= ;s point is that you are proposing a protocol change. That cannot be done b= y way of an erratum. If you want to write an Internet Draft with your propo= sals, they can be debated. I wonder if you could use the XR capability to g= et the information you want?=

Tom Taylor


On 10/12/2014 1:22 AM, Julius Friedman wrote:
Dear Mr. Casner / Audio Video Working Group.

Sincerely thank you for responding in a manner which clearly shows that you=
have taken the time to acknowledge my inquiry. I know my previous emails were hastily written and this one is probably not much better but I will endeavor to express my concerns and points and then in summary ask you
respond at least once again.

I would like to first start of by saying that if I did have functions which=
are not specified they would not be standard and hence not relevant for
errata, the reason I wrote this errata is because I know that others have also had issues when reading that sentence (and multiple others in the Rtp<= br> RFC [3550]) and I would like to clarify if nothing else why I believe it is=
errata and why it can potentially be a security risk.
...

--047d7bfeb18ad000240509e14501-- From nobody Wed Dec 10 11:26:37 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4AE41A909F for ; Wed, 10 Dec 2014 11:26:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Jupqxm2znhIz for ; Wed, 10 Dec 2014 11:26:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ie0-x230.google.com (mail-ie0-x230.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c03::230]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0A19A1A90A4 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 2014 11:26:10 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ie0-f176.google.com with SMTP id tr6so3225859ieb.7 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 2014 11:26:09 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=r3t7Qh7RJ4WUmdSgXS08WkQKGT7WuKrs41w0/fDicAY=; b=UF2yH2UzLoQ/7cb3In549mulgcWDFhx9c2m9kMIcKUDS+qX1zYCjG+sCb5XllJa0SC BrhjKATX9cgwwHg7qbd6uHZNAhlJALjjJwvRnUiBZsefse9z4DgVbEVdOyjYcqaMZA8k wz5GNA1MTtWrld87FyP0Lr90SugCCqw6lNxLUDxvhLlMhRUdRHIa64sYqJ0Ea8mGv+Xm 6oBgmMRNa14d1KIbMZXk6ZSqjGFzUPPyZccmXM3E7D/Ih9ObXeW/1WaedUv3mKeg7WlX C4vRI8JYVBTIYyJqxv6ohEEoUIcf/VS0yUFpJazGXXZUKvO1j71Qz1QdTglowoz+vW+E uaMQ== X-Received: by 10.42.26.147 with SMTP id f19mr7386736icc.84.1418239569196; Wed, 10 Dec 2014 11:26:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.0.101] ([216.254.167.19]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id k191sm2766415iok.1.2014.12.10.11.26.08 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 10 Dec 2014 11:26:08 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <54889E4A.1090509@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2014 14:26:02 -0500 From: Tom Taylor User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Julius Friedman , avt@ietf.org References: <548895EA.3050108@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/avt/4yJyPurMYzSncHiA2_1CYPVMrXM Subject: Re: [AVTCORE] Errata 4192 RFC 3550 X-BeenThere: avt@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2014 19:26:36 -0000 We are saying that regardless of considerations of implementation, the IETF requires that changes of this sort be achieved using certain procedures. The current wording of RFC 3550 was achieved through Working Group consensus, and that is what would be required for further changes. The way to achieve that is through the writing of an Internet Draft and list discussion. So far there has been no indication of Working Group interest in your interpretation, but who knows? I have not seen your errata for the other two documents, presumably because they went to a different E-mail list, but the same procedural considerations apply. Tom Taylor On 10/12/2014 2:00 PM, Julius Friedman wrote: > Thank you Mr. Taylor. > > The bottom line is that even given the verbiage existing that it is simply > invalid to calculate the rate of just the payload using the time including > other data. > > That itself is errata. > > If the change is made as I suggested then existing hardware (even if it not > updated with the new logic) will be able to be at least detected using my > change. > > Some implementations already use this information in the count anyway and > would thus be valid instead of invalid (with no change). > > There are bigger fish to fry such as the location and content of the > padding, of which the location is the most important for detection of > completion of the packet. > > We need to address one or the other and then it can validate your equations > existing (but would still require a change to the location of the offset of > the padding) or as I suggested for this errata to change the wording or the > name. > > Both are really in order it's just a matter of how its done and not hastily > but after consideration I would suggest that if "compatibility" with > existing hardware is most important then to update just the name and > indicate my errata as a name change only and why so that it can be adjusted > for as best as possible where required; then to file more errata to change > the location of the padding or just start work on a new version of the rtp > standard with ambiguous definitions removed. > > Thank you for your time and effort and I look forward to your dialog in > this matter! > > Can you also please check my RFC2435 Errata and RFC2326 Errata so I can > discuss those as well? > > Sincerely, > Julius Richard Friedman > > On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 1:50 PM, Tom Taylor > wrote: > >> Stephen's point is that you are proposing a protocol change. That cannot >> be done by way of an erratum. If you want to write an Internet Draft with >> your proposals, they can be debated. I wonder if you could use the XR >> capability to get the information you want? >> >> Tom Taylor >> ... From nobody Wed Dec 10 11:52:39 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5E2C1A8ACA for ; Wed, 10 Dec 2014 11:52:37 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id T6nwUerNK1PH for ; Wed, 10 Dec 2014 11:52:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pd0-x22a.google.com (mail-pd0-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c02::22a]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F30E21A8AC5 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 2014 11:52:33 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pd0-f170.google.com with SMTP id v10so3418885pde.1 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 2014 11:52:33 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=O3L3VwXOlSswoxuPaXaocndIe4zqrNHOvz41oC/IAZQ=; b=h5zsYJcWhmet2w3d0CgrD1L8ZAji2KmEBf8r1eGoIAZl9rxRp2eicSRMuKmEbhmJqH qpAqBmoXu1Gg8TA9NAAO/zWtk3BRLRMu8/H61oQL5aQ3tYgKXfkCdhs5nZmRVn+FpW/A 8iz5twnbZRJbbjW9wJ90mRUwL+O1WybyCEhHKnviI+et8MKYuMnUxpY676o458b8OCQn Ql9rPIkG7YfygA66nX6r0g9MfmPqjqlOzigOB2apw65yYL78NvfRPMYabyOoq1sj5zja LsIW7QDUUJL19bPIWjr3kapAGMJG4O3Dx6sSYwIv5FODtsiUiBCZxVct/6izi69isMaP UzvA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.70.22.227 with SMTP id h3mr10339856pdf.160.1418241153215; Wed, 10 Dec 2014 11:52:33 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.70.117.99 with HTTP; Wed, 10 Dec 2014 11:52:33 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <54889E4A.1090509@gmail.com> References: <548895EA.3050108@gmail.com> <54889E4A.1090509@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2014 14:52:33 -0500 Message-ID: From: Julius Friedman To: Tom Taylor , avt@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b6da18a24b26b0509e200d0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/avt/-_LsTKMp-V0P-0qiyOZiSpvEeIY Subject: Re: [AVTCORE] Errata 4192 RFC 3550 X-BeenThere: avt@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2014 19:52:38 -0000 --047d7b6da18a24b26b0509e200d0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Dear Mr. Taylor, AVT. Thus it was my reasons for explicitly opening this discussion. Possibly the errata name and notes and focus could be shifted but as is the case with many things in science, not to diverge but the points are simple: The instructions given for calculating transit time, jitter inter arrival and all other "times" in the "real time" protocol take account data transferred on the medium of transfer, this time calculation MUST include the time taken to receive CSRC, Extensions and Padding. Thus the Senders Octet Count not including these values goes against these calculations to form a value which is both detrimental to the given standard algormithmic calculations for those values as well as security in cases where encryption is used. This does not take into account "middle boxes" which are one of Mr. Casner's areas of other modifications to internet drafts, in most of his modifications the middle boxes are allowed to remove extensions which when occurs causes information to be hidden under the current verbiage for no reason when allowing for it's detection is both beneficial and accurate given the description and taking into account its relationship to the data rate. In short if my total octet count is X I can manually determine what my packet overhead is (csrc, extension or padding) and if i have the total numbers (X) I can also remove time for the padding and csrc and extension because I will have the total rate given by the time at which the packet was received. Simply if I determine X is 100 I can determine X is made from csrc total Y, extension total Z and then X - (Y + Z) would come out to exactly what the existing senders octet count is given the standard today and create a valid calculation of "jitter" and the other calculated values which would then finally no longer be saturated by the presence of extra data (regardless if the middle box removes it which causes additional delay which is just seen as jitter in the network anway) This should be easy to achieve consensus on since the change basically says instead of performing subtraction for data not part of the "data" of the payload just increment for the "payload" section (which may include csrc, and extension and padding). This removes a calculation which is also mostly 0 all of the time when none of the values are used and only causes issues when there are mediums in between anyway such as mixers, hence it is VERY VERY important to use the values such as jitter in the way they were designed and as indicated in the standard and to acknowledge that your already taking those values into account (even if you don't know it because they were removed by a middle box). It is also very very easy to detect that the sender is keeping count a different way than you are and thus would indicate a middle box or older version of the standard being implemented which would also subsequently be able to be detected and accounted for giving the change. That is what I would like to address however, the problem is that this does not even take into account that padding at the end of the packet can be truncated and is another issue itself. Hence the location of padding ALSO needs to really be changed to make reception more reliable, that will probably harder to specify in errata and thus will require a protocol change but obviously consensus needs to be attained. I would love to focus on the new draft but I think that we need to fix some things in the existing version with errata first because it will both justify the nature of new version and explain the nuisances with the previous version which can then be adjusted for if required. I also notice that RFC3551 specified that DVI be dropped but it specified NO other default VIDEO transfer mechanism. Since PCM is sometimes required and thus it was named for audio I do believe that uncompressed / raw should also be specified as a minimum mandatory requirement for implementations. This would enable audio and video transfer in a uncompressed manner which is standardly defined in https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4175. How the consensus could be taken to remove a required video format but not specify a standard replace would also be errata in my opinion but apparently it's not... There are probably other issues and I would be glad to help address them but I need to determine what needs to be addressed and where and ensure that consensus is achieved to write a draft. I have found my errata for RFC2435 @ http://www.rfc-editor.org/errata_search.php?rfc=2435 I will re-submit my errata for RFC2326 today or tomorrow. Hopefully we can all take some time to focus on the content here and decide the path to take but I hope we can at least agree that its very clear to me something needs to be done. Thank you again for your time! On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 2:26 PM, Tom Taylor wrote: > We are saying that regardless of considerations of implementation, the > IETF requires that changes of this sort be achieved using certain > procedures. The current wording of RFC 3550 was achieved through Working > Group consensus, and that is what would be required for further changes. > The way to achieve that is through the writing of an Internet Draft and > list discussion. So far there has been no indication of Working Group > interest in your interpretation, but who knows? > > I have not seen your errata for the other two documents, presumably > because they went to a different E-mail list, but the same procedural > considerations apply. > > Tom Taylor > > > On 10/12/2014 2:00 PM, Julius Friedman wrote: > >> Thank you Mr. Taylor. >> >> The bottom line is that even given the verbiage existing that it is simply >> invalid to calculate the rate of just the payload using the time including >> other data. >> >> That itself is errata. >> >> If the change is made as I suggested then existing hardware (even if it >> not >> updated with the new logic) will be able to be at least detected using my >> change. >> >> Some implementations already use this information in the count anyway and >> would thus be valid instead of invalid (with no change). >> >> There are bigger fish to fry such as the location and content of the >> padding, of which the location is the most important for detection of >> completion of the packet. >> >> We need to address one or the other and then it can validate your >> equations >> existing (but would still require a change to the location of the offset >> of >> the padding) or as I suggested for this errata to change the wording or >> the >> name. >> >> Both are really in order it's just a matter of how its done and not >> hastily >> but after consideration I would suggest that if "compatibility" with >> existing hardware is most important then to update just the name and >> indicate my errata as a name change only and why so that it can be >> adjusted >> for as best as possible where required; then to file more errata to change >> the location of the padding or just start work on a new version of the rtp >> standard with ambiguous definitions removed. >> >> Thank you for your time and effort and I look forward to your dialog in >> this matter! >> >> Can you also please check my RFC2435 Errata and RFC2326 Errata so I can >> discuss those as well? >> >> Sincerely, >> Julius Richard Friedman >> >> On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 1:50 PM, Tom Taylor >> wrote: >> >> Stephen's point is that you are proposing a protocol change. That cannot >>> be done by way of an erratum. If you want to write an Internet Draft with >>> your proposals, they can be debated. I wonder if you could use the XR >>> capability to get the information you want? >>> >>> Tom Taylor >>> >>> ... > --047d7b6da18a24b26b0509e200d0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear Mr. Taylor, AVT.

Thus i= t was my reasons for explicitly opening this discussion.

Possibly the errata name and notes and focus could be shifted but as= is the case with many things in science, not to diverge but the points are= simple:

The instructions given for calculating tr= ansit time, jitter inter arrival and all other "times" in the &qu= ot;real time" protocol take account data transferred on the medium of = transfer, this time calculation MUST include the time taken to receive CSRC= , Extensions and Padding. Thus the Senders Octet Count not including these = values goes against these calculations to form a value which is both detrim= ental to the given standard algormithmic calculations for those values as w= ell as =C2=A0security in cases where encryption is used.

This does not take into account "middle boxes" which are o= ne of Mr. Casner's areas of other modifications to internet drafts, in = most of his modifications the middle boxes are allowed to remove extensions= which when occurs causes information to be hidden under the current verbia= ge for no reason when allowing for it's detection is both beneficial an= d accurate given the description and taking into account its relationship t= o the data rate.

In short if my total octet count = is X I can manually determine what my packet overhead is (csrc, extension o= r padding) and if i have the total numbers (X) I can also remove time for t= he padding and csrc and extension because I will have the total rate given = by the time at which the packet was received.

Simp= ly if I determine X is 100 I can determine X is made from csrc total Y, ext= ension total Z and then X - (Y + Z) would come out to exactly what the exis= ting senders octet count is given the standard today and create a valid cal= culation of "jitter" and the other calculated values which would = then finally no longer be saturated by the presence of extra data (regardle= ss if the middle box removes it which causes additional delay which is just= seen as jitter in the network anway)

This should = be easy to achieve consensus on since the change basically says instead of = performing subtraction for data not part of the "data" of the pay= load just increment for the "payload" section (which may include = csrc, and extension and padding).

This removes a c= alculation which is also mostly 0 all of the time when none of the values a= re used and only causes issues when there are mediums in between anyway suc= h as mixers, hence it is VERY VERY important to use the values such as jitt= er in the way they were designed and as indicated in the standard and to ac= knowledge that your already taking those values into account (even if you d= on't know it because they were removed by a middle box).

=
It is also very very easy to detect that the sender is keeping c= ount a different way than you are and thus would indicate a middle box or o= lder version of the standard being implemented which would also subsequentl= y be able to be detected and accounted for giving the change.
That is what I would like to address however, the problem is th= at this does not even take into account that padding at the end of the pack= et can be truncated and is another issue itself.

H= ence the location of padding ALSO needs to really be changed to make recept= ion more reliable, that will probably harder to specify in errata and thus = will require a protocol change but obviously consensus needs to be attained= .=C2=A0

I would love to focus on the new draft but= I think that we need to fix some things in the existing version with errat= a first because it will both justify the nature of new version and explain = the nuisances with the previous version which can then be adjusted for if r= equired.

I also notice that RFC3551 specified that= DVI be dropped but it specified NO other default VIDEO transfer mechanism.=

Since PCM is sometimes required and thus it w= as named for audio I do believe that uncompressed / raw should also be spec= ified as a minimum mandatory requirement for implementations.
This would enable audio and video transfer in a uncompressed ma= nner which is standardly defined in=C2=A0https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4175.

=
How the consensus could be taken to remove a required video format but= not specify a standard replace would also be errata in my opinion but appa= rently it's not...

There are probably other is= sues and I would be glad to help address them but I need to determine what = needs to be addressed and where and ensure that consensus is achieved to wr= ite a draft.

I have found my errata for RFC2435 @ = http://w= ww.rfc-editor.org/errata_search.php?rfc=3D2435=C2=A0

I will re-submit my errata for RFC2326 today or tomorrow.
=
Hopefully we can all take some time to focus on the content = here and decide the path to take but I hope we can at least agree that its = very clear to me something needs to be done.

Thank= you again for your time!=C2=A0



On Wed, Dec 10, 201= 4 at 2:26 PM, Tom Taylor <tom.taylor.stds@gmail.com>= wrote:
We are saying that regardless of = considerations of implementation, the IETF requires that changes of this so= rt be achieved using certain procedures. The current wording of RFC 3550 wa= s achieved through Working Group consensus, and that is what would be requi= red for further changes. The way to achieve that is through the writing of = an Internet Draft and list discussion. So far there has been no indication = of Working Group interest in your interpretation, but who knows?

I have not seen your errata for the other two documents, presumably because= they went to a different E-mail list, but the same procedural consideratio= ns apply.

Tom Taylor


On 10/12/2014 2:00 PM, Julius Friedman wrote:
Thank you Mr. Taylor.

The bottom line is that even given the verbiage existing that it is simply<= br> invalid to calculate the rate of just the payload using the time including<= br> other data.

That itself is errata.

If the change is made as I suggested then existing hardware (even if it not=
updated with the new logic) will be able to be at least detected using my change.

Some implementations already use this information in the count anyway and would thus be valid instead of invalid (with no change).

There are bigger fish to fry such as the location and content of the
padding, of which the location is the most important for detection of
completion of the packet.

We need to address one or the other and then it can validate your equations=
existing (but would still require a change to the location of the offset of=
the padding) or as I suggested for this errata to change the wording or the=
name.

Both are really in order it's just a matter of how its done and not has= tily
but after consideration I would suggest that if "compatibility" w= ith
existing hardware is most important then to update just the name and
indicate my errata as a name change only and why so that it can be adjusted=
for as best as possible where required; then to file more errata to change<= br> the location of the padding or just start work on a new version of the rtp<= br> standard with ambiguous definitions removed.

Thank you for your time and effort and I look forward to your dialog in
this matter!

Can you also please check my RFC2435 Errata and RFC2326 Errata so I can
discuss those as well?

Sincerely,
Julius Richard Friedman

On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 1:50 PM, Tom Taylor <tom.taylor.stds@gmail.com>
wrote:

Stephen's point is that you are proposing a protocol change. That canno= t
be done by way of an erratum. If you want to write an Internet Draft with your proposals, they can be debated. I wonder if you could use the XR
capability to get the information you want?

Tom Taylor

...

--047d7b6da18a24b26b0509e200d0-- From nobody Wed Dec 10 12:10:44 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE9041A8BB0 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 2014 12:10:40 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FumxtJG8BLNa for ; Wed, 10 Dec 2014 12:10:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ie0-x233.google.com (mail-ie0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c03::233]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3FDA51A8BC5 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 2014 12:09:20 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ie0-f179.google.com with SMTP id rp18so3422935iec.38 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 2014 12:09:19 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=DOp6AYsrqa+CPVq8Co5gsys3ythZdOV/uSOhR58JJu4=; b=acFiZIR/yB5cwo5lUmNDIXiEeOYPZ0hdpJYrQD+qEd3r/vQLBZQfupdqN8u/IWbe05 GcyTHyw/O3uJl8i6/Evq62xD/DtDWRKUITas68htOsmlSNERFuqMS9PzatGOd7sjb5Nq oxQDhciXNz8KJJkag4nvBPVOPeM9FdOGG4+rCwJfBebN7FbPdaOvDfI6G9RBU/STQ8Cz uFIcFNA+tXLTEEJ2di6P+gchQw2wLtczW8GLGk5okcyVCtTHsPuOWvKpBcYMMxkjukx4 efZJZsHe24DGRsLnyzDTwaccKPcs7pRxdItWo0wb3SFERyElBoUSWSWlGnOfTH5J9gK1 7orw== X-Received: by 10.50.98.101 with SMTP id eh5mr28069871igb.31.1418242159346; Wed, 10 Dec 2014 12:09:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.0.101] ([216.254.167.19]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id k191sm2819811iok.1.2014.12.10.12.09.18 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 10 Dec 2014 12:09:19 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <5488A867.9030501@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2014 15:09:11 -0500 From: Tom Taylor User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Julius Friedman , avt@ietf.org References: <548895EA.3050108@gmail.com> <54889E4A.1090509@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/avt/ZH1muhEuaacqLY6hpnlVHgq5mQo Subject: Re: [AVTCORE] Errata 4192 RFC 3550 X-BeenThere: avt@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2014 20:10:41 -0000 I wasn't explicit enough. You should take the ideas you present below and put them into an Internet Draft, then submit it for publication and discussion. Have a look at the tutorials at http://www.ietf.org/edu/tutorials.html to help you get started. And welcome to the IETF as a new participant. Tom Taylor On 10/12/2014 2:52 PM, Julius Friedman wrote: > Dear Mr. Taylor, AVT. > > Thus it was my reasons for explicitly opening this discussion. > > Possibly the errata name and notes and focus could be shifted but as is the > case with many things in science, not to diverge but the points are simple: > >... From nobody Wed Dec 10 12:40:18 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C76C1A00F9 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 2014 12:40:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.399 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.399 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_52=0.6, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id id0saB32YdPk for ; Wed, 10 Dec 2014 12:40:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pa0-x22a.google.com (mail-pa0-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c03::22a]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 252171A0041 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 2014 12:40:15 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pa0-f42.google.com with SMTP id et14so3530253pad.29 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 2014 12:40:14 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=ZeSqqcCyyYSf488Xvi5+2sBD8+mB9IaOEPLItCyOaJc=; b=jTggdZ75ywd/cueee+KbYkOr0biyETp5MyN0LkkypoZBIqRkX6E/oKeW1q0GyAMr9M uKLwwUOpDEHHkjuJheY906GYi7nC+HStQdVQUjWe71MaKIjNm89seUrAPRyU7mYMgGzv qMMXHWumxdgFzuyohiovJZY2t+qTaxtprgrPSljveBTGnlS5x4rlc3NhXnSHVw/iaLZ4 kgrMQsIueKXmoi+WeAfX1jKI2aWAgP5GfdxpYH7FNV1PEOxiBgUE2W86uIdAwdjJolLd 6i8DRX9bCiJ8Jvl8ZBvtD8rNuhO8i+OJMfPSXVH6IlRVdypikH9B8hVi97vqqmHc7ri9 7/yg== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.66.122.100 with SMTP id lr4mr10671751pab.56.1418244014412; Wed, 10 Dec 2014 12:40:14 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.70.117.99 with HTTP; Wed, 10 Dec 2014 12:40:14 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.70.117.99 with HTTP; Wed, 10 Dec 2014 12:40:14 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <5488A867.9030501@gmail.com> References: <548895EA.3050108@gmail.com> <54889E4A.1090509@gmail.com> <5488A867.9030501@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2014 15:40:14 -0500 Message-ID: From: Julius Friedman To: Tom Taylor , avt@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b2e0de7af18ed0509e2aa07 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/avt/NK575DyqqA-5U-1ap2dmPc1fw0g Subject: Re: [AVTCORE] Errata 4192 RFC 3550 X-BeenThere: avt@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2014 20:40:17 -0000 --047d7b2e0de7af18ed0509e2aa07 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Thank you, I appreciate being a part of something which will enable the improvement of the quality of software engineered the world over. I will create a draft for both rtp and the others, I will ever go as far to address the draft of rtsp. However, before beginning I would like there to be an acknowledgement of the given errata so it can be justified that time be spent working on the draft. Even if its held for update, (which it seems there are already at least one without my additions) it would allow me to address these issues and outline both the relationship and determine if a new version be specified in the draft or if just the same version be specified but with changes given or to make the draft correct for the initial standard (which would involve keeping track of the entities in question to properly calculate the given terms)of which options is the very least desirable to me. If a new version is specified I even will go as far to acknowledge all the back to rtp 1 to ensure that all variations are specified partly because I have identified version 0 as potentially another version (4) or explicitly marking it as reserved for compatibility with VAT. I will also address that uncompressed video be supported abd pcm be supported at a minimum. I also have changes which can remove dependence on media clock rate which will simplify overall general calculations for jitter and the like, since again they would be know or determinate and also incorrect which shouldn't make calculations invalid. Hopefully you and everyone else sees that I have a lot of considerations / ideas and that I don't want to flood the working group with such problems if they can be avoided however with web rtc becoming mainstream I believe we need to address these issues today rather than tomorrow and I will do whatever work is necessary to ensure the standards are correct and encompass the best possible principles of engineering possible but I need to know that the work is both utilized and understood otherwise it will be for nothing. Hopefully it's not too much to ask and thanks again and I appreciate your time and effort in this matter as well as that of the committees. Sincerely, Julius Richard Friedman On Dec 10, 2014 3:09 PM, "Tom Taylor" wrote: > I wasn't explicit enough. You should take the ideas you present below and > put them into an Internet Draft, then submit it for publication and > discussion. > > Have a look at the tutorials at http://www.ietf.org/edu/tutorials.html to > help you get started. And welcome to the IETF as a new participant. > > Tom Taylor > > On 10/12/2014 2:52 PM, Julius Friedman wrote: > >> Dear Mr. Taylor, AVT. >> >> Thus it was my reasons for explicitly opening this discussion. >> >> Possibly the errata name and notes and focus could be shifted but as is >> the >> case with many things in science, not to diverge but the points are >> simple: >> >> ... >> > --047d7b2e0de7af18ed0509e2aa07 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Thank you, I appreciate being a part of something which will= enable the improvement of the quality of software engineered the world ove= r.

I will create a draft for both rtp and the others,=C2=A0 I w= ill ever go as far to address the draft of rtsp.

However,=C2=A0 before beginning I would like there to be an = acknowledgement of the given errata so it can be justified that time be spe= nt working on the draft.

Even if its held for update, (which it seems there are alrea= dy at least one without my additions) it would allow me to address these is= sues and outline both the relationship and determine if a new version be sp= ecified in the draft or if just the same version be specified but with chan= ges given or to make the draft correct for the initial standard (which woul= d involve keeping track of the entities in question to properly calculate t= he given terms)of which options is the very least desirable to me.

If a new version is specified I even will go as far to ackno= wledge all the back to rtp 1 to ensure that all variations are specified pa= rtly because I have identified version 0 as potentially another version (4)= or explicitly marking it as reserved for compatibility with VAT.

I will also address that uncompressed video be supported abd= pcm be supported at a minimum.

I also have changes which can remove dependence on media clo= ck rate which will simplify overall general calculations for jitter and the= like, since again they would be know or determinate and also incorrect whi= ch shouldn't make calculations invalid.

Hopefully you and everyone else sees that I have a lot of co= nsiderations / ideas and that I don't want to flood the working group w= ith such problems if they can be avoided however with web rtc becoming main= stream I believe we need to address these issues today rather than tomorrow= and I will do whatever work is necessary to ensure the standards are corre= ct and encompass the best possible principles of engineering possible but I= need to know that the work is both utilized and understood otherwise it wi= ll be for nothing.

Hopefully it's not too much to ask and thanks again and = I appreciate your time and effort in this matter as well as that of the com= mittees.

Sincerely,
Julius Richard Friedman

On Dec 10, 2014 3:09 PM, "Tom Taylor" = <tom.taylor.stds@gmail.com<= /a>> wrote:
I was= n't explicit enough. You should take the ideas you present below and pu= t them into an Internet Draft, then submit it for publication and discussio= n.

Have a look at the tutorials at
http://www.ietf.org/edu/tutorials.html= to help you get started. And welcome to the IETF as a new participant.

Tom Taylor

On 10/12/2014 2:52 PM, Julius Friedman wrote:
Dear Mr. Taylor, AVT.

Thus it was my reasons for explicitly opening this discussion.

Possibly the errata name and notes and focus could be shifted but as is the=
case with many things in science, not to diverge but the points are simple:=

...
--047d7b2e0de7af18ed0509e2aa07-- From nobody Thu Dec 11 08:55:06 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0ADA1A702A for ; Thu, 11 Dec 2014 08:54:56 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 2.065 X-Spam-Level: ** X-Spam-Status: No, score=2.065 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, J_CHICKENPOX_52=0.6, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id evaqheLU3oaN for ; Thu, 11 Dec 2014 08:54:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from resqmta-ch2-03v.sys.comcast.net (resqmta-ch2-03v.sys.comcast.net [IPv6:2001:558:fe21:29:69:252:207:35]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AAFC81A8034 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 2014 08:54:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from resomta-ch2-06v.sys.comcast.net ([69.252.207.102]) by resqmta-ch2-03v.sys.comcast.net with comcast id SGuu1p0042D5gil01Guujs; Thu, 11 Dec 2014 16:54:54 +0000 Received: from hobgoblin.ariadne.com ([24.34.72.61]) by resomta-ch2-06v.sys.comcast.net with comcast id SGuu1p0011KKtkw01GuuT4; Thu, 11 Dec 2014 16:54:54 +0000 Received: from hobgoblin.ariadne.com (hobgoblin.ariadne.com [127.0.0.1]) by hobgoblin.ariadne.com (8.14.7/8.14.7) with ESMTP id sBBGsr4d028627; Thu, 11 Dec 2014 11:54:53 -0500 Received: (from worley@localhost) by hobgoblin.ariadne.com (8.14.7/8.14.7/Submit) id sBBGsrDj028626; Thu, 11 Dec 2014 11:54:53 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: hobgoblin.ariadne.com: worley set sender to worley@alum.mit.edu using -f From: worley@ariadne.com (Dale R. Worley) To: Julius Friedman In-Reply-To: (juliusfriedman@gmail.com) Sender: worley@ariadne.com (Dale R. Worley) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2014 11:54:53 -0500 Message-ID: <877fxy6s9u.fsf@hobgoblin.ariadne.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=comcast.net; s=q20140121; t=1418316894; bh=PwU+0f9e/S62VY5Ftz/BujQ6K1hCv8ufwRvIbDwHnQg=; h=Received:Received:Received:Received:From:To:Subject:Date: Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=WK+ryCwiiAlR8REprHyDoou3jHMY3tbLp4J+YuuX2PvleX5/+BnsNyaJ89IfalLXh RnW+INkFfOKiVAXuUxhC+cIOr2A/dw/h7hSTcdGzSuxWDsVxNW9fmS8ehbB6826bc8 zEGcmfldxqWbFMfhvDPdJvgrQArFwbVyMcNqRCymenRzeJgvQs/4rE8CCGlPnNTtJz hB7GzCGKIs7VnhNTZADu5LyE5VrttjF4qCWak7XokfSBXMOCtLZc3cDFvKg7JqMpLS Eat+71wb0n9bPw+bGWDmqSN1UJBp2YoYIKK1ATHKnL+dXYLHhsZPuxHw6FKLlozhxD 8AWC1vT8np7AQ== Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/avt/-HtFTrVGIucb_5qkyTNxttKTTmk Cc: avt@ietf.org Subject: Re: [AVTCORE] Errata 4192 RFC 3550 X-BeenThere: avt@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2014 16:54:57 -0000 Julius Friedman writes: > However, before beginning I would like there to be an acknowledgement of > the given errata so it can be justified that time be spent working on the > draft. You've already been told that the erratum will be rejected, since the RFC does, in fact, correctly describe what the working group intended for it to describe. You believe that the information the protocol carries is not the information that it *should* carry. That is a complex technical judgement that can only be made by the working group as a whole. The way to get the working group to consider the question is to write an Internet-Draft and then raise the question on the appropriate working group mailing list. > Even if its held for update, (which it seems there are already at least one > without my additions) it would allow me to address these issues and outline > both the relationship and determine if a new version be specified in the > draft or if just the same version be specified but with changes given or to > make the draft correct for the initial standard (which would involve > keeping track of the entities in question to properly calculate the given > terms)of which options is the very least desirable to me. > > If a new version is specified I even will go as far to acknowledge all the > back to rtp 1 to ensure that all variations are specified partly because I > have identified version 0 as potentially another version (4) or explicitly > marking it as reserved for compatibility with VAT. > > I will also address that uncompressed video be supported abd pcm be > supported at a minimum. > > I also have changes which can remove dependence on media clock rate which > will simplify overall general calculations for jitter and the like, since > again they would be know or determinate and also incorrect which shouldn't > make calculations invalid. > > Hopefully you and everyone else sees that I have a lot of considerations / > ideas and that I don't want to flood the working group with such problems > if they can be avoided however with web rtc becoming mainstream I believe > we need to address these issues today rather than tomorrow and I will do > whatever work is necessary to ensure the standards are correct and > encompass the best possible principles of engineering possible but I need > to know that the work is both utilized and understood otherwise it will be > for nothing. > > Hopefully it's not too much to ask and thanks again and I appreciate your > time and effort in this matter as well as that of the committees. All of these matters can only be handled by the working group as a whole. They are excellent items to address in an Internet-Draft. Dale From nobody Thu Dec 11 09:20:57 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F051B1A6FCD for ; Thu, 11 Dec 2014 09:20:55 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_05=-0.5, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_52=0.6, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YNPCbYPH5VGn for ; Thu, 11 Dec 2014 09:20:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pa0-x22c.google.com (mail-pa0-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c03::22c]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F2DD91A6FC2 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 2014 09:20:19 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pa0-f44.google.com with SMTP id et14so5433265pad.17 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 2014 09:20:18 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=H8LnIvTO8QgecemIwD5TC23m8xZWySIDej/BH/YYUV4=; b=wHnhSL0i4SlURct4J/s6g0Lt5bj/AdC34dKdfP6exRaIRDbC8xJI6oUB/DerJhDyxv erji0oLoTfzacwqgJSoNvZcSxPEY0P3PcdNLyZEBnfXCisBTrvFyKAAoM0sZWl2G9zIP 67uIskNPOdFbWrhGTgZTAq1FNSoCba+opy9NDhm5Fh3rFX1st4b4EwiyGMARzDL10fBL IgS9ovuIOUfmskwwmg4L/Ibn6+m0ZZPE7yFoWnjG3TXEen+SltEgXbFerRjEsAiHb7Hv VpE0wCr/vynXYv6XtuZYEb6kj9wkNHVKjmLIyWV3OJL3l+Fiqf0nDpw8AkyDkWk9kREM ZYnw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.70.22.227 with SMTP id h3mr19111306pdf.160.1418318418725; Thu, 11 Dec 2014 09:20:18 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.70.117.99 with HTTP; Thu, 11 Dec 2014 09:20:18 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.70.117.99 with HTTP; Thu, 11 Dec 2014 09:20:18 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <877fxy6s9u.fsf@hobgoblin.ariadne.com> References: <877fxy6s9u.fsf@hobgoblin.ariadne.com> Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2014 12:20:18 -0500 Message-ID: From: Julius Friedman To: "Dale R. Worley" , avt@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b6da18a86d2720509f3fd2d Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/avt/zDzc2GQtzOqPDLRcoqJIlnlt2_k Subject: Re: [AVTCORE] Errata 4192 RFC 3550 X-BeenThere: avt@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2014 17:20:56 -0000 --047d7b6da18a86d2720509f3fd2d Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 How can the items be excellent for a draft but not consideration for errata? After all I have proven transit times account for the data I am proposing should be included, why cute shortcuts were taken to allow a calculation which is much more accurate and straightforward otherwise. Transit and jitter already account for the data in question as I have also shown. Since no breaking change occurs I believe that errata is the best way to sort this initial problem out. To reject it at this point is ignorant based on the fact so many other edits are being looked at for rtp. The padding issues is important but not as important as rtp has worked for so long already. The draft I will write will address this but should also cite the reasons why it was needed to draft a newer version. In that version I am going to regard this as an error and indicate the basic mathematical principals I have cited here as well as the error in logic in calculating payload data rate without the header and padding but including those values in jitter and transit calculations which also can effect rtcp. I will also address the fact that video support was eliminated for no apparent reason and never updated to include raw support. Those are two items which need to be addressed (as well as the other edits) in both errata and the new draft. I am also changing how media clockrate is tied to calculations for jitter and transit because of the issues with timestamps being the same when multiple packets have the same timestamp in a frame among other issues cited and not. Padding location and content will also be addressed for security and delivery protection as well as easier parsing. I am also sure others have a few things to add to this as well (multi pathing etc) which should also be addressed in the new draft. There is a lot of things which can be improved but since that is outside the scope of the proposed errata I need to address that first. There is no protocol change for the proposed changes though (senders octet count and raw video support) and the other edits are similar to reduce ambiguity so unless it can be shown specifically why this is rejected I am insisting that it be included with the 'final edits' to the rtp spec already proposed. I will begin work on the draft for version 3 regardless. There is a lot of content which needs to be included for the smaller existing standards which popped up e.g. rfc4751, Rtsp, feedback inter alia. Since that will likely take time I highly suggest we correctly revise 3550 appropriately. At this point we have 1889, 3551, 355x its already a nightmare researching rtp and this new draft needs to fix that rather than repeat it and to make a draft for this change alone when other changes are also being made is not only ineffective its enneficient and displays instability in the standard. On Dec 11, 2014 11:54 AM, "Dale R. Worley" wrote: > Julius Friedman writes: > > However, before beginning I would like there to be an acknowledgement of > > the given errata so it can be justified that time be spent working on the > > draft. > > You've already been told that the erratum will be rejected, since the > RFC does, in fact, correctly describe what the working group intended > for it to describe. > > You believe that the information the protocol carries is not the > information that it *should* carry. That is a complex technical > judgement that can only be made by the working group as a whole. The > way to get the working group to consider the question is to write an > Internet-Draft and then raise the question on the appropriate working > group mailing list. > > > Even if its held for update, (which it seems there are already at least > one > > without my additions) it would allow me to address these issues and > outline > > both the relationship and determine if a new version be specified in the > > draft or if just the same version be specified but with changes given or > to > > make the draft correct for the initial standard (which would involve > > keeping track of the entities in question to properly calculate the given > > terms)of which options is the very least desirable to me. > > > > If a new version is specified I even will go as far to acknowledge all > the > > back to rtp 1 to ensure that all variations are specified partly because > I > > have identified version 0 as potentially another version (4) or > explicitly > > marking it as reserved for compatibility with VAT. > > > > I will also address that uncompressed video be supported abd pcm be > > supported at a minimum. > > > > I also have changes which can remove dependence on media clock rate which > > will simplify overall general calculations for jitter and the like, since > > again they would be know or determinate and also incorrect which > shouldn't > > make calculations invalid. > > > > Hopefully you and everyone else sees that I have a lot of considerations > / > > ideas and that I don't want to flood the working group with such problems > > if they can be avoided however with web rtc becoming mainstream I believe > > we need to address these issues today rather than tomorrow and I will do > > whatever work is necessary to ensure the standards are correct and > > encompass the best possible principles of engineering possible but I need > > to know that the work is both utilized and understood otherwise it will > be > > for nothing. > > > > Hopefully it's not too much to ask and thanks again and I appreciate your > > time and effort in this matter as well as that of the committees. > > All of these matters can only be handled by the working group as a > whole. They are excellent items to address in an Internet-Draft. > > Dale > --047d7b6da18a86d2720509f3fd2d Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

How can the items be excellent for a draft but not considera= tion for errata?

After all I have proven transit times account for the data I= am proposing should be included, why cute shortcuts were taken to allow a = calculation which is much more accurate and straightforward otherwise.

Transit and jitter already account for the data in question = as I have also shown.

Since no breaking change occurs I believe that errata is the= best way to sort this initial problem out.

To reject it at this point is ignorant based on the fact so = many other edits are being looked at for rtp.

The padding issues is important but not as important as rtp = has worked for so long already.

The draft I will write will address this but should also cit= e the reasons why it was needed to draft a newer version.

In that version I am going to regard this as an error and in= dicate the basic mathematical principals I have cited here as well as the e= rror in logic in calculating payload data rate without the header and paddi= ng but including those values in jitter and transit calculations which also= can effect rtcp.

I will also address the fact that video support was eliminat= ed for no apparent reason and never updated to include raw support.

Those are two items which need to be addressed (as well as t= he other edits) in both errata and the new draft.

I am also changing how media clockrate is tied to calculatio= ns for jitter and transit because of the issues with timestamps being the s= ame when multiple packets have the same timestamp in a frame among other is= sues cited and not.

Padding location and content will also be addressed for secu= rity and delivery protection as well as easier parsing.

I am also sure others have a few things to add to this as we= ll (multi pathing etc) which should also be addressed in the new draft.

There is a lot of things which can be improved but since tha= t is outside the scope of the proposed errata I need to address that first.=

There is no protocol change for the proposed changes though = (senders octet count and raw video support) and the other edits are similar= to reduce ambiguity so unless it can be shown specifically why this is rej= ected I am insisting that it be included with the 'final edits' to = the rtp spec already proposed.

I will begin work on the draft for version 3 regardless.

There is a lot of content which needs to be included for the= smaller existing standards which popped up e.g. rfc4751, Rtsp, feedback in= ter alia.

Since that will likely take time I highly suggest we correct= ly revise 3550 appropriately.

At this point we have 1889, 3551, 355x its already a nightma= re researching rtp and this new draft needs to fix that rather than repeat = it and to make a draft for this change alone when other changes are also be= ing made is not only ineffective its enneficient and displays instability i= n the standard.

On Dec 11, 2014 11:54 AM, "Dale R. Worley&q= uot; <worley@ariadne.com> w= rote:
Julius Friedma= n <juliusfriedman@gmail.com<= /a>> writes:
> However,=C2=A0 before beginning I would like there to be an acknowledg= ement of
> the given errata so it can be justified that time be spent working on = the
> draft.

You've already been told that the erratum will be rejected, since the RFC does, in fact, correctly describe what the working group intended
for it to describe.

You believe that the information the protocol carries is not the
information that it *should* carry.=C2=A0 That is a complex technical
judgement that can only be made by the working group as a whole.=C2=A0 The<= br> way to get the working group to consider the question is to write an
Internet-Draft and then raise the question on the appropriate working
group mailing list.

> Even if its held for update, (which it seems there are already at leas= t one
> without my additions) it would allow me to address these issues and ou= tline
> both the relationship and determine if a new version be specified in t= he
> draft or if just the same version be specified but with changes given = or to
> make the draft correct for the initial standard (which would involve > keeping track of the entities in question to properly calculate the gi= ven
> terms)of which options is the very least desirable to me.
>
> If a new version is specified I even will go as far to acknowledge all= the
> back to rtp 1 to ensure that all variations are specified partly becau= se I
> have identified version 0 as potentially another version (4) or explic= itly
> marking it as reserved for compatibility with VAT.
>
> I will also address that uncompressed video be supported abd pcm be > supported at a minimum.
>
> I also have changes which can remove dependence on media clock rate wh= ich
> will simplify overall general calculations for jitter and the like, si= nce
> again they would be know or determinate and also incorrect which shoul= dn't
> make calculations invalid.
>
> Hopefully you and everyone else sees that I have a lot of consideratio= ns /
> ideas and that I don't want to flood the working group with such p= roblems
> if they can be avoided however with web rtc becoming mainstream I beli= eve
> we need to address these issues today rather than tomorrow and I will = do
> whatever work is necessary to ensure the standards are correct and
> encompass the best possible principles of engineering possible but I n= eed
> to know that the work is both utilized and understood otherwise it wil= l be
> for nothing.
>
> Hopefully it's not too much to ask and thanks again and I apprecia= te your
> time and effort in this matter as well as that of the committees.

All of these matters can only be handled by the working group as a
whole.=C2=A0 They are excellent items to address in an Internet-Draft.

Dale
--047d7b6da18a86d2720509f3fd2d-- From nobody Thu Dec 11 09:30:43 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DA8A1A1B2F for ; Thu, 11 Dec 2014 09:30:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.978 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.978 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8NWQP1R-0fhG for ; Thu, 11 Dec 2014 09:30:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-la0-f49.google.com (mail-la0-f49.google.com [209.85.215.49]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1CF641A00B7 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 2014 09:30:40 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-la0-f49.google.com with SMTP id hs14so4526042lab.8 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 2014 09:30:38 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=RUGpSFczGmno4wcZeFiSGazQBZvEa4+geKfbxPGQ82g=; b=L4PxeIStvE6hQshFdFsPoVFEgpwcBPLx8e7AP4cUcPc2c5gIZkX90CY0lPlrdRS7MR LJMESnrUIM7gvXCUR1pgaWdjRjw0K4lvFTKuPxZZTHQBOZnlXP5CNmrQvT2ufFZZJsUl W3zOkB1xnWYjlkvChHg+xbHpAvOo8blvJZB1NPhTEqUIxMNTYOsjiz2ZwKWMyLdqxp0K /d4ypftVsNXHYYEMyOCx4e1bBtaiJ90bG/lDaXU54mzlIxOg6N2+TrdoLPXtWzVRfRSF HiZbLtJ3q7hG+uNYIV4GwZVFeDB6StfGlsmTfKj6ymODGMy9iTWiimOioDVlEIXmvYVm OCLQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQkpJmc3Iq/Qy9ukG51wnjdMeLK0YOAVoFwit/9y0L+ZN7W1yOka0QotK5bCxx8FLkUxIxLn MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.112.168.164 with SMTP id zx4mr2741518lbb.28.1418319038501; Thu, 11 Dec 2014 09:30:38 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.25.84.145 with HTTP; Thu, 11 Dec 2014 09:30:38 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <877fxy6s9u.fsf@hobgoblin.ariadne.com> Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2014 10:30:38 -0700 Message-ID: From: Simon Perreault To: Julius Friedman Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c2356477f0790509f42218 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/avt/qD_aM6qpdEZVcdFD5umO2rYD100 Cc: avt@ietf.org Subject: Re: [AVTCORE] Errata 4192 RFC 3550 X-BeenThere: avt@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2014 17:30:41 -0000 --001a11c2356477f0790509f42218 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Thu, Dec 11, 2014 at 10:20 AM, Julius Friedman wrote: > How can the items be excellent for a draft but not consideration for > errata? Errata is appropriate when an RFC doesn't reflect what the working group meant. A draft is appropriate when an RFC does reflect what the working group meant, but the working group was wrong. Simon --001a11c2356477f0790509f42218 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

= On Thu, Dec 11, 2014 at 10:20 AM, Julius Friedman <juliusfriedman@g= mail.com> wrote:
How can = the items be excellent for a draft but not consideration for errata?

Errata is appropriate when an RFC doesn't reflect what = the working group meant.
A draft is appropr= iate when an RFC does reflect what the working group meant, but the working= group was wrong.

Simon
--001a11c2356477f0790509f42218-- From nobody Thu Dec 11 10:10:28 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFFB41ACF05 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 2014 10:10:26 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id z2m1vYvCD0rh for ; Thu, 11 Dec 2014 10:10:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pa0-x232.google.com (mail-pa0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c03::232]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 24B591A1BC7 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 2014 10:10:24 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pa0-f50.google.com with SMTP id bj1so5557812pad.9 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 2014 10:10:23 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=PGscBfKtsbK6TZCcWJPkUN9KGAhjFkkl4CJVX3e5BQI=; b=rqrg4DJKLyfWmsK5YKM3q74Qd+C3oUD7IUt34bkN9vW8zcvgkervEdYZpsjAITcIHS 0rl2uvnx5zVfKbkePP2R8Yey/JVkJwguEMM3YE105kehCrRVAqRB7bqZzS4LDIu08pM/ qZcda5PwxhgI9UyXFNp7M1SOtA5UNLwzSpq7C6MUKHuO1OTcb5JouXeX/HnOCv7ptKRj T+QoyhXMQ0KsFnCQ1oQw7y8Gg47BYNFHNQFzaKrS1BBL4fwykpcx+qaa+Na3Pyj9RgVL RXIBKMUfBQ0oDvtYqxqBk58EeLNF0AbAIKRlK/dtUY81km7wi2HS00K0k0cXpv24+R1S hyrg== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.66.122.100 with SMTP id lr4mr19341663pab.56.1418321423204; Thu, 11 Dec 2014 10:10:23 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.70.117.99 with HTTP; Thu, 11 Dec 2014 10:10:22 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.70.117.99 with HTTP; Thu, 11 Dec 2014 10:10:22 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <877fxy6s9u.fsf@hobgoblin.ariadne.com> Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2014 13:10:22 -0500 Message-ID: From: Julius Friedman To: Simon Perreault , avt@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b2e0de79b8ae00509f4b047 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/avt/Y7t82nT_kP4bb6SAPDefF7C1W0M Subject: Re: [AVTCORE] Errata 4192 RFC 3550 X-BeenThere: avt@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2014 18:10:27 -0000 --047d7b2e0de79b8ae00509f4b047 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 So then are you implying that it would be correct to change the definition of timestamp and other such proposed changes while not allowing this one? Have I not show that it is incorrect to take the transit time including the header but then send only the "payload" count in the report? Even when the definition and calulcations just explicitly given show that the times taken include ANY data transfer including non rtp? Making the change in text makes this calulcations correct and unambiguous just as the other proposed changes which are being contemplated. It also allows for more than correctness by showing when a route is altered. What reason is there to acknowledge this but reject the errata only to propose a new draft? On Dec 11, 2014 12:30 PM, "Simon Perreault" wrote: > > On Thu, Dec 11, 2014 at 10:20 AM, Julius Friedman < > juliusfriedman@gmail.com> wrote: > >> How can the items be excellent for a draft but not consideration for >> errata? > > > Errata is appropriate when an RFC doesn't reflect what the working group > meant. > A draft is appropriate when an RFC does reflect what the working group > meant, but the working group was wrong. > > Simon > --047d7b2e0de79b8ae00509f4b047 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

So then are you implying that it would be correct to change = the definition of timestamp and other such proposed changes while not allow= ing this one?

Have I not show that it is incorrect to take the transit tim= e including the header but then send only the "payload" count in = the report?

Even when the definition and calulcations just explicitly gi= ven show that the times taken include ANY data transfer including non rtp?<= /p>

Making the change in text makes this calulcations correct an= d unambiguous just as the other proposed changes which are being contemplat= ed.

It also allows for more than correctness by showing when a r= oute is altered.

What reason is there to acknowledge this but reject the erra= ta only to propose a new draft?

--047d7b2e0de79b8ae00509f4b047-- From nobody Thu Dec 11 11:23:13 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09AC81A00AD for ; Thu, 11 Dec 2014 11:23:09 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NRjgpwfNfMfF for ; Thu, 11 Dec 2014 11:23:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ig0-x232.google.com (mail-ig0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c05::232]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 257791A8760 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 2014 11:22:48 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ig0-f178.google.com with SMTP id hl2so210699igb.5 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 2014 11:22:47 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Ry/iegFBwE8fCWU+5NmYnwacAp6mLGdrKr9ogzpBlws=; b=cSi74CxWUzOAGGeF3EPY0z+UvUYNU0X7rDC19XXo+PoM/wSgMVPEgrAg+jAK9AUOIc 8Mchd/moprUXXzVli4VVsVUxYdIYXmb3m2UXWEglg6Ofe+HuMUKnK80W/o/s0MiGf5kg se8hrbUb86HkLZ3aA1JfiP6Z/ZAA/Uq47It77PKZN5I+B8vkRW+JL7PXjCibl+dYNKQD zRenU8Sr093/Jn7B3rTB68I6FvFSLKQwgYJkbcn3+amFOe7NJBGTQALzNZuxTCriA1vZ pr7bqx7P1hBx+cXBcexlHluRayQ+Ewm8pjQxOpGjiKltA2mbiLeWDZhIovhMYjZmP360 j9hQ== X-Received: by 10.43.129.196 with SMTP id hj4mr13269485icc.21.1418325767082; Thu, 11 Dec 2014 11:22:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.0.101] ([216.254.167.19]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id l2sm962866ioe.34.2014.12.11.11.22.46 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 11 Dec 2014 11:22:46 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <5489EF00.70301@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2014 14:22:40 -0500 From: Tom Taylor User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Julius Friedman , avt@ietf.org References: <877fxy6s9u.fsf@hobgoblin.ariadne.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/avt/joi6dhvgFOigiM8ilVhsxulvdL4 Subject: Re: [AVTCORE] Errata 4192 RFC 3550 X-BeenThere: avt@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2014 19:23:10 -0000 Your choice: follow IETF procedure or get nowhere. The first part of your draft should state the requirements you are trying to fulfill. These are clearly different from the requirements seen by the authors of RFC 3550 and its predecessor. Again I suggest that you look at the RTCP XR related RFCs to see if any of them fulfill your requirements. Tom Taylor On 11/12/2014 12:20 PM, Julius Friedman wrote: > How can the items be excellent for a draft but not consideration for > errata? > ... From nobody Thu Dec 11 16:02:05 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A05A1A909F for ; Thu, 11 Dec 2014 16:02:03 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AzPQda_uw-wi for ; Thu, 11 Dec 2014 16:02:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pd0-x22e.google.com (mail-pd0-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c02::22e]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 71AA11A9093 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 2014 16:02:01 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pd0-f174.google.com with SMTP id fp1so5980714pdb.33 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 2014 16:02:00 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=swEypAJzvS2XbSySbE4uNd5HjwwF4O5O3MmCI5qh9aI=; b=iQpo8/OZcs28KC5yiWMOUfl8wpPq7/sCpdl4IP9tCq6CDbHseWuNc1VPmXrvOAiGrU hYlXKWKErvIvcifNxpVuYuFslvx/SnQdE8XFLTQsjNaD8vSNyKhlzGsDhaEVgJGoa+YB uhlWHhA5YdY8bBIRiC/R+MaP/xEdW4HtfclINo5bWt5rcRs5zm1F98Vs8jBOtkoX0hn2 oNLeEZ6AnXx1k5mELk7FvURMuZcI8W6RBIXneA+GvCx6vM3y49PgT/cyT5FP/dBJpITJ Y8kEchmqPzT+h6GLATdjAA1+IijG0si8PosJcJfen4ziZASEzsy1SiivSf8oRU+uE2Fo K3Qw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.66.65.168 with SMTP id y8mr22095039pas.48.1418342519381; Thu, 11 Dec 2014 16:01:59 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.70.117.99 with HTTP; Thu, 11 Dec 2014 16:01:59 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.70.117.99 with HTTP; Thu, 11 Dec 2014 16:01:59 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2014 19:01:59 -0500 Message-ID: From: Julius Friedman To: avt@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11362f1009a6b30509f99a06 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/avt/9MNaJZYVqVN0VZbbcVzj4k4UMU0 Subject: [AVTCORE] On Errata 4199 X-BeenThere: avt@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2014 00:02:03 -0000 --001a11362f1009a6b30509f99a06 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Hello again, I am writing to address errata 4199 this time. I would like to ensure my errata is correctly filed and also offer that if escaping is not chosen then attempting to demuxi based on the payload type or ssrc would also work. Thanks for your time in the matter. Sincerely, Julius Friedman --001a11362f1009a6b30509f99a06 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8

Hello again,

I am writing to address errata 4199 this time.

I would like to ensure my errata is correctly filed and also offer that if escaping is not chosen then attempting to demuxi based on the payload type or ssrc would also work.

Thanks for your time in the matter.

Sincerely,
Julius Friedman

--001a11362f1009a6b30509f99a06-- From nobody Thu Dec 11 19:17:29 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59AD01A923E for ; Thu, 11 Dec 2014 19:17:20 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZKhml-9x3tXy for ; Thu, 11 Dec 2014 19:17:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pd0-x234.google.com (mail-pd0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c02::234]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 33E451A9177 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 2014 19:17:17 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pd0-f180.google.com with SMTP id w10so6302354pde.39 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 2014 19:17:16 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=Edud22k50ltSUMrW6e805LtBdxWadR3BqwxMypBXUp0=; b=csAMEg8o7hmKSUonJdcQ42Sb8a+dts8099e7Qy30G//VglNUx3K40d54VljV7R6itu bA5czYfpPoQo17moHPrAzu3dp1Sea8Qj/NCnBW/2/7zx5/JOyVSVO13gOeSkLCMeGuO8 +wCaZO4Z47NrqvQO0GicwZhY0EthJI07bwYuMshfOytgKs2BSQbZs2je+jDtSNdtprqH C/F3RYHPFA1zjHBzIE2Vzw75jEMDzSv18/iPIZFw660BQLmzXag7h43bO6++r54dWaos SRegf2Tq9BHswg9zYfkrKq9iGYbyci7aatdiAYsjAH/cZ3IviXrfUniCG4fQUNPcnJyk LKuA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.68.57.167 with SMTP id j7mr22984895pbq.160.1418354236448; Thu, 11 Dec 2014 19:17:16 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.70.117.99 with HTTP; Thu, 11 Dec 2014 19:17:16 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.70.117.99 with HTTP; Thu, 11 Dec 2014 19:17:16 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <548A5BE0.7000401@gmail.com> References: <877fxy6s9u.fsf@hobgoblin.ariadne.com> <5489EF00.70301@gmail.com> <548A5BE0.7000401@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2014 22:17:16 -0500 Message-ID: From: Julius Friedman To: Tom Taylor , avt@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113805ec6de6260509fc5465 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/avt/CljfJXbzT29q0KOukdbnoPLUSHQ Subject: Re: [AVTCORE] Errata 4192 RFC 3550 X-BeenThere: avt@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2014 03:17:20 -0000 --001a113805ec6de6260509fc5465 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 And I see that 3551 obsolete 3550. This is also a trivial change just as are the suggestions which are outlined in the latest changes which have not yet made it into the rfc e.g. the -new documents which bears the same rfc number but changes wording. Anyway we have other problems to worry about besides this. All I know is that my application will not comply with this old way of thinking and without having the source code one person won't even really be able to tell why the calculation is giving anyway. I have already shown in my own server implementation that existing software works the same if not better using my values as recommended. I will write a new draft regardless of what you do with this errata but I suggest it is not rejected without proper reason. ... Please also check out the errata related to rfc2326 and lets try to get somewhere with that... Sincerely, Julius Friedman. On Dec 11, 2014 10:07 PM, "Tom Taylor" wrote: > RFCs are not updated (with the exception of errata, which are more in the > nature of trivial corrections); they are replaced. As a present example, > the original RTP specification was RFC 1889, published 18 years ago. If you > go to the RFC Editor database, > > > http://www.rfc-editor.org/search/rfc_search_detail.php? > rfc=3550&pubstatus[]=Any&pub_date_type=any > > you'll see that RFC 3550 obsoletes RFC 1889. > > Tom Taylor > > On 11/12/2014 4:33 PM, Julius Friedman wrote: > >> Thanks for taking time to... inform me... >> >> And so then what are the modifications to the standard proposed >> considered? Is a modification not performed because of errata? >> >> This is not about xr reports or anything else besides the simple >> calculations which obviously are not consistent. >> >> This is basic math and indeed proves if nothing else that the sender >> octet count becomes USELESS when csrc, extension or padding is used. >> > > [PTT] Useless for your purpose. I am telling you that your purpose is > different from that of the people who accepted the calculations in RFCs > 1889 and 3550 for the last 18 years. As a result, a proposal to replace RFC > 3550 for this reason won't, honestly, get anywhere, but if you really need > that information you can probably get it using the RTCP XR framework. > ... > --001a113805ec6de6260509fc5465 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

And I see that 3551 obsolete 3550.

This is also a trivial change just as are the suggestions wh= ich are outlined in the latest changes which have not yet made it into the = rfc e.g. the -new documents which bears the same rfc number but changes wor= ding.

Anyway we have other problems to worry about=C2=A0 besides t= his.

All I know is that my application will not comply with this = old way of thinking and without having the source code one person won't= even really be able to tell why the calculation is giving anyway.

I have already shown in my own server implementation that ex= isting software works the same if not better using my values as recommended= .

I will write a new draft regardless of what you do with this= errata but I suggest it is not rejected without proper reason.

...

Please also check out the errata related to rfc2326 and lets= try to get somewhere with that...

Sincerely,
Julius Friedman.

On Dec 11, 2014 10:07 PM, "Tom Taylor"= <tom.taylor.stds@gmail.com= > wrote:
RFCs= are not updated (with the exception of errata, which are more in the natur= e of trivial corrections); they are replaced. As a present example, the ori= ginal RTP specification was RFC 1889, published 18 years ago. If you go to = the RFC Editor database,


http://w= ww.rfc-editor.org/search/rfc_search_detail.php?rfc=3D3550&= ;pubstatus[]=3DAny&pub_date_type=3Dany

you'll see that RFC 3550 obsoletes RFC 1889.

Tom Taylor

On 11/12/2014 4:33 PM, Julius Friedman wrote:
Thanks for taking time to... inform me...

And so then what are the modifications to the standard proposed
considered? Is a modification not performed because of errata?

This is not about xr reports or anything else besides the simple
calculations which obviously are not consistent.

This is basic math and indeed proves if nothing else that the sender
octet count becomes USELESS when csrc, extension or padding is used.

[PTT] Useless for your purpose. I am telling you that your purpose is diffe= rent from that of the people who accepted the calculations in RFCs 1889 and= 3550 for the last 18 years. As a result, a proposal to replace RFC 3550 fo= r this reason won't, honestly, get anywhere, but if you really need tha= t information you can probably get it using the RTCP XR framework.
...
--001a113805ec6de6260509fc5465-- From nobody Mon Dec 15 06:53:10 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 490E21A3BA7 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 2014 06:53:09 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NbMSxGZJtceE for ; Mon, 15 Dec 2014 06:53:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pd0-x22a.google.com (mail-pd0-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c02::22a]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7BF4F1A1B64 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 2014 06:53:06 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pd0-f170.google.com with SMTP id v10so11773148pde.15 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 2014 06:53:05 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=as3WjaBLyOc4ASUOUmJr1GY+wiey9Q2N0s2rVuS3NRE=; b=dQHDoHftiiTklf8N1d4XNsZKFI8RpoIxqYK3yf6cdLpkOW3yrePDTemZ48yMyZc3tq VwF3VvPqm6mdDrF5OcsSxNMHzB0hjFdoP6LQLH5HfEVfz261x3TFaX1M5qE1/q3kXoMz 2HLvnlrk+rgCFkbFRQrtD1/yFZ0bb0ns2VRq9j8zdbSEdC+h49jhJGy9j9X1N8zlQ2ue qGKpBctd1zh+AOeGHW924OTkkPE0OO56Jd7slu0m49Uow5vTbPDJsCQnirdDG23iyOm2 GJT3fOuPVQ8SyPRK4rVnFvokn43Z5MQ7BKdy4V9fOHMEP9IF78WBLl+/LGWK8pG6/S/T V6iA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.68.251.37 with SMTP id zh5mr32617190pbc.120.1418655185724; Mon, 15 Dec 2014 06:53:05 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.70.117.99 with HTTP; Mon, 15 Dec 2014 06:53:05 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.70.117.99 with HTTP; Mon, 15 Dec 2014 06:53:05 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2014 09:53:05 -0500 Message-ID: From: Julius Friedman To: "Brandenburg, R. (Ray) van" , avt@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b5d4ddc676d8f050a426665 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/avt/uq0IER0yzzShMOShvgFxwduQSgU Subject: Re: [AVTCORE] Mail regarding draft-ietf-avtcore-clksrc X-BeenThere: avt@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2014 14:53:09 -0000 --047d7b5d4ddc676d8f050a426665 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'll check out that section and re-write in if necessary. One thing on your response I have to clarify. The sr allowed this synchronization. The reference clock is virtually set to the time difference between the ntp timestamp in the sender report and the receiver. That's seems synchronized to me. What difference does it make if his clock is wrong? Furthermore if sender uses a clock on mars. Can you succinctly state why we need to know more details about clock rate than already available 20 years later? How does my application benefit from this? Furthermore it seems dynamic clock rates are not addressed. Thanks for responding. On Dec 15, 2014 3:11 AM, "Brandenburg, R. (Ray) van" < ray.vanbrandenburg@tno.nl> wrote: > Hi Julius, > > Thanks for your constructive and positively-formulated feedback. > > I advise you to read section 2 on Applications. It will answer most of > your questions. > > Furthermore, you seem to have missed a number of aspects: > > - There is a difference between a media clock and a reference clock. I > don=E2=80=99t see how any RTP profile or current SDP is going to help you= to know > which reference clock you=E2=80=99re using. Without that information, how= are you > going to synchronize two different receivers? > - There is a difference between specifying a media clock rate (which is > done in an RTP profile) and specifying how that clock rate is determined. > > If you have any more questions, I encourage you to voice your opinion on > the AVT mailing list. > > Best regards, > > Ray > > > From: Julius Friedman > Date: Sunday 14 December 2014 18:37 > To: "draft-ietf-avtcore-clksrc@tools.ietf.org" < > draft-ietf-avtcore-clksrc@tools.ietf.org> > Subject: Mail regarding draft-ietf-avtcore-clksrc > Resent-To: "aidan.williams@audinate.com" , < > hans.stokking@tno.nl>, Kevin Gross , Ray van > Brandenburg > > What is the purpose of this rfc? > > After reading it several times I just cannot come to terms with anything > it suggests. > > Rfc 3550 conveys the ntp time information via rtcp et al. > > There is no reason to signal rate of media in sdp beyond where each rtp > profile registered has a default clock rate assigned especially when the > document provides no mechanism to align the clocks in which it declared > might not be synchronized. (Even though that is the purpose of ntp... ) > > Here is a simple explanation. > http://www.cs.columbia.edu/~hgs/rtp/faq.html#sr-timestamp > > Furthermore each implementation already has the clock rate as a parameter > of the rtpmap or fmtp or the profile default is used. > > This document makes sdp content longer and more complex without any added > benefit or explanation of the mechanism introduced. > > Lastly Video walls wouldn't need a specified rate to work as they would > have their own rate and update displays based on that rate. > > Any such required information would be an optimiZation to their display > driver through the operating system, do you really want a rtp sender to b= e > able to control the clock rate of your display? If you do use snmp or > something else. > > Things have worked like this for as long as rtp has been specified and > thus this rfc only allows information to be given which is redundant give= n > the fact a profile which would be required for playback through > depacketization anyway. > > This document also makes no change to any calculation used by a receiver > or sender. > > It is for all intents and purposes useless. > > Please feel free to correct me. > > Sincerely, > Julius Friedman. > > > > This message may contain information that is not intended for you. If you > are not the addressee or if this message was sent to you by mistake, you > are requested to inform the sender and delete the message. TNO accepts no > liability for the content of this e-mail, for the manner in which you use > it and for damage of any kind resulting from the risks inherent to the > electronic transmission of messages. > > --047d7b5d4ddc676d8f050a426665 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I'll check out that section and re-write in if necessary= .

One thing on your response I have to clarify.
The sr allowed this synchronization.

The reference clock is virtually set to the time difference = between the ntp timestamp in the sender report and the receiver.

That's seems synchronized to me.

What difference does it make if his clock is wrong? Furtherm= ore if sender uses a clock on mars.

Can you succinctly state why we need to know more details ab= out clock rate than already available 20 years later?

How does my application benefit from this?

Furthermore it seems dynamic clock rates are not addressed. =

Thanks for responding.

On Dec 15, 2014 3:11 AM, "Brandenburg, R. (= Ray) van" <ray.vanbran= denburg@tno.nl> wrote:
Hi Julius,

Thanks for your constructive and positively-formulated feedback.=C2=A0=

I advise you to read section 2 on Applications. It will answer most of= your questions.=C2=A0

Furthermore, you seem to have missed a number of aspects:

- There is a difference between a media clock and a reference clock. I= don=E2=80=99t see how any RTP profile or current SDP is going to help you = to know which reference clock you=E2=80=99re using. Without that informatio= n, how are you going to synchronize two different receivers?=C2=A0
- There is a difference between specifying a media clock rate (which i= s done in an RTP profile) and specifying how that clock rate is determined.= =C2=A0

If you have any more questions, I encourage you to voice your opinion = on the AVT mailing list.

Best regards,

Ray


From: Julius Friedman <juliusfriedman@gmail= .com>
Date: Sunday 14 December 2014 18:37=
To: "draft-ietf-avtcore-clk= src@tools.ietf.org" <draft-ietf-avtcore-clksrc@tools.ietf.or= g>
Subject: Mail regarding draft-ietf-= avtcore-clksrc
Resent-To: "aidan.williams@audinate.com<= /a>" <aidan.williams@audinate.com>, <hans.stokking@tno.nl>, Kevin Gross <kevin.gross@avanw.com>, Ray van Brandenburg <ray.vanbrandenburg@tno.nl&g= t;

What is the purpose of this rfc?

After reading it several times I just cannot come to terms w= ith anything it suggests.

Rfc 3550 conveys the ntp time information via rtcp et al.

There is no reason to signal rate of media in sdp beyond whe= re each rtp profile registered has a default clock rate assigned especially= when the document provides no mechanism to align the clocks in which it de= clared might not be synchronized. (Even though that is the purpose of ntp... )

Here is a simple explanation.
http://www.cs.columbia.edu/~hgs/rtp/faq.html#sr-timestamp<= /p>

Furthermore each implementation already has the clock rate a= s a parameter of the rtpmap or fmtp or the profile default is used.

This document makes sdp content longer and more complex with= out any added benefit or explanation of the mechanism introduced.

Lastly Video walls wouldn't need a specified rate to wor= k as they would have their own rate and update displays based on that rate.=

Any such required information would be an optimiZation to th= eir display driver through the operating system, do you really want a rtp s= ender to be able to control the clock rate of your display? If you do use s= nmp or something else.

Things have worked like this for as long as rtp has been spe= cified and thus this rfc only allows information to be given which is redun= dant given the fact a profile which would be required for playback through = depacketization anyway.

This document also makes no change to any calculation used b= y a receiver or sender.

It is for all intents and purposes useless.

Please feel free to correct me.

Sincerely,
Julius Friedman.

=C2=A0

This message may contain information that is = not intended for you. If you are not the addressee or if this message was s= ent to you by mistake, you are requested to inform the sender and delete th= e message. TNO accepts no liability for the content of this e-mail, for the= manner in which you use it and for damage of any kind resulting from the r= isks inherent to the electronic transmission of messages.

--047d7b5d4ddc676d8f050a426665-- From nobody Mon Dec 15 07:11:41 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 539D61A6FEB for ; Mon, 15 Dec 2014 07:11:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_05=-0.5, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1-HZj59dsIk5 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 2014 07:11:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pa0-x22c.google.com (mail-pa0-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c03::22c]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 67B621A6FE7 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 2014 07:11:24 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pa0-f44.google.com with SMTP id et14so12089357pad.3 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 2014 07:11:23 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=q4m40yKxtD40eGwqCeF7Au7k486QPfY7zoHBj+m6VYQ=; b=gLfDNu+k3qsxKM2UJTvUujPAfmmk5J7WS1GVo7CkPaLDj9vCUPsiTPqEQPbvrTegZj 5l0CIlEB4HRNTu6WUaFyKunK3722GOn9KEElzQC93kSW8+yxbja+WAbtA6kkNCTQg6JD ELi66niywqsjLjiNFGxHjHLoPX6mYLcdz/zyc06prAqTwk1Mhsrtwc8qL7i/HIXMv4gO IvjeOku5JNknzPwCIHwD+HeUrbakXvT7BMmGvTP4ooxJ2/069v6oYkt3UIGChoRtny1Y 3kK3JQTHez3hCZCBZDQxYi6VGeDgoDcH/tI301pCRoJS9wXJt5ghAdkk2EVVksnCoPm0 vrLw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.68.236.67 with SMTP id us3mr31549315pbc.121.1418656283132; Mon, 15 Dec 2014 07:11:23 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.70.117.99 with HTTP; Mon, 15 Dec 2014 07:11:23 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.70.117.99 with HTTP; Mon, 15 Dec 2014 07:11:23 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <6CD85653-1D8F-4E46-8345-70242728B9CB@tno.nl> References: <6CD85653-1D8F-4E46-8345-70242728B9CB@tno.nl> Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2014 10:11:23 -0500 Message-ID: From: Julius Friedman To: "R. (Ray) van Brandenburg" , avt@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b2e11b1d08c9d050a42a75d Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/avt/hFSyu3Xu7-3cKNPsnnxyuXFQMPo Subject: Re: [AVTCORE] Mail regarding draft-ietf-avtcore-leap-second X-BeenThere: avt@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2014 15:11:38 -0000 --047d7b2e11b1d08c9d050a42a75d Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Granted then 3550 is updated in several standards and not necessarily obsoleted, maybe thats the problem; whether or not assumptions matter the details are clearly stated. This draft doesn't specifically say how to check or correct this issue which is should. What if one party is not in leap year time and another is? Furthermore the senders report is giving you a time to indicate the senders time for a sample. If this information is deemed so important that it makes it to standard then I don't see why other such issues as the octet count are not also addressed. Two years or not I would assume better later than never. Sincerely, Julius Richard Friedman On Dec 15, 2014 3:20 AM, "Brandenburg, R. (Ray) van" < ray.vanbrandenburg@tno.nl> wrote: > Hi Julius, > > > This rfc also updated 3550 which is obsolete and should update 3551 > and only reference 3550 when required. > > Where do you get the idea that 3550 is obsoleted? > > > We assume that the small system dependent implementation of leap year > needs to be addressed at the rfc level. > > With =E2=80=98we=E2=80=99, I assume you mean =E2=80=98you=E2=80=99, sinc= e I haven=E2=80=99t seen your opinion on > the mailing list in the roughly 2 years since this draft was first > introduced and it becoming an RFC. > > Ray > > > From: Julius Friedman > Date: Sunday 14 December 2014 18:56 > To: "draft-ietf-avtcore-leap-second@tools.ietf.org" < > draft-ietf-avtcore-leap-second@tools.ietf.org> > Subject: Mail regarding draft-ietf-avtcore-leap-second > Resent-To: Kevin Gross , Ray van Brandenburg < > ray.vanbrandenburg@tno.nl> > > This is another priceless internet draft. > > We assume that the small system dependent implementation of leap year > needs to be addressed at the rfc level. > > We do so without providing anyway to test your implementation to the give= n > criteria or test the system to determine if any corrections are actually > required. > > This should at the best case be informational. > > It is a larger problem to calculate the payload rate without csrc, > extension and padding than it would be to account for a leap year, this = is > especially true if the receiver synchronized to the sender then the time > difference becomes 0 anyway. > > This rfc also updated 3550 which is obsolete and should update 3551 and > only reference 3550 when required. > > Sincerely, > Julius Richard Friedman > > > > This message may contain information that is not intended for you. If you > are not the addressee or if this message was sent to you by mistake, you > are requested to inform the sender and delete the message. TNO accepts no > liability for the content of this e-mail, for the manner in which you use > it and for damage of any kind resulting from the risks inherent to the > electronic transmission of messages. > > --047d7b2e11b1d08c9d050a42a75d Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Granted then 3550 is updated in several standards and not ne= cessarily obsoleted, maybe thats the problem; whether or not assumptions ma= tter the details are clearly stated.

This draft doesn't specifically say how to check or corr= ect this issue which is should.

What if one party is not in leap year time and another is?

Furthermore the senders report is giving you a time to indic= ate the senders time for a sample.

If this information is deemed so important that it makes it = to standard then I don't see why other such issues as the octet count a= re not also addressed.

Two years or not I would assume better later than never.

Sincerely,
Julius Richard Friedman

On Dec 15, 2014 3:20 AM, "Brandenburg, R. (= Ray) van" <ray.vanbran= denburg@tno.nl> wrote:
Hi Julius,

> This rfc also updated 3550 which is obsolete and should update 35= 51 and only reference 3550 when required.

Where do you get the idea that 3550 is obsoleted?

> We assume that the small system dependent implementation of leap = year needs to be addressed at the rfc level.

With =E2=80=98we=E2=80=99, I assume you mean =E2=80=98you=E2=80=99, si= nce I haven=E2=80=99t seen your opinion on the mailing list in the roughly = 2 years since this draft was first introduced and it becoming an RFC.=C2=A0=

Ray


From: Julius Friedman <juliusfriedman@gmail= .com>
Date: Sunday 14 December 2014 18:56=
To: "draft-ietf-avtcor= e-leap-second@tools.ietf.org" <draft-ietf-avtcore-leap-= second@tools.ietf.org>
Subject: Mail regarding draft-ietf-= avtcore-leap-second
Resent-To: Kevin Gross <kevin.gross@avanw.com>, Ray van Brandenburg <ray.vanbrandenburg@tno.nl>

This is another priceless internet draft.

We assume that the small system dependent implementation of = leap year needs to be addressed at the rfc level.

We do so without providing anyway to test your implementatio= n to the given criteria or test the system to determine if any corrections = are actually required.

This should at the best case be informational.

It is a larger problem to calculate the payload rate without= csrc, extension and padding=C2=A0 than it would be to account for a leap y= ear, this is especially true if the receiver synchronized to the sender the= n the time difference becomes 0 anyway.

This rfc also updated 3550 which is obsolete and should upda= te 3551 and only reference 3550 when required.

Sincerely,
Julius Richard Friedman

=C2=A0

This message may contain information that is = not intended for you. If you are not the addressee or if this message was s= ent to you by mistake, you are requested to inform the sender and delete th= e message. TNO accepts no liability for the content of this e-mail, for the= manner in which you use it and for damage of any kind resulting from the r= isks inherent to the electronic transmission of messages.

--047d7b2e11b1d08c9d050a42a75d-- From nobody Mon Dec 15 08:03:41 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1470F1A7D84 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 2014 08:03:37 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Sg03KHB6cbcJ for ; Mon, 15 Dec 2014 08:03:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pa0-x230.google.com (mail-pa0-x230.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c03::230]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 530A01A710D for ; Mon, 15 Dec 2014 08:02:52 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pa0-f48.google.com with SMTP id rd3so12081786pab.21 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 2014 08:02:51 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=O2QEvmq2p3fNCPQD+UiTXdsejVMH3Pgb/bwbM2yY9Kk=; b=PEg+BqYuSTIgcJ+yGy0Lfp3DBCR4HvNjz/tzhXMF8bTUxiKZ+5Dfa6RKflkIPiBo82 HMIdvfjYGJMnI8h8upq+Ji+Nl6NQWDB73+4NQD4f1jmn3gIRVeYhM8ulByoGS2Z0o/wu ENgzgI9t2nJkmQuTmZNG+vJ/SgxcY73Bucsjq37ywPhI71qHDb07ZQSvmBFmq16K9y9R 71kyDRUNPqXfaN0P3orwsvyHrh63gSzy9f947In1aPv1O9SwgaJKankak7uUBs9mxbg9 MM8dYnlqfDU23mB7t0lwaxPuTZBfXn8MXWQYnIzX6nalxz0f7WxKF7abXFV76Lb6Wndb uJoA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.68.236.67 with SMTP id us3mr31964013pbc.121.1418659371312; Mon, 15 Dec 2014 08:02:51 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.70.117.99 with HTTP; Mon, 15 Dec 2014 08:02:51 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.70.117.99 with HTTP; Mon, 15 Dec 2014 08:02:51 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2014 11:02:51 -0500 Message-ID: From: Julius Friedman To: aurelien.sollaud@orange.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b2e11b1e26f3d050a435f8e Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/avt/b4OMYN6dfNIYBOkKh1aiCe9VnEw Cc: avt@ietf.org Subject: Re: [AVTCORE] Mail regarding draft-ietf-avt-app-rtp-keepalive (rfc6263) X-BeenThere: avt@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2014 16:03:38 -0000 --047d7b2e11b1e26f3d050a435f8e Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks for the update. I see ice is excluded but if stun etc was also excluded then it should be indicated in the same place. Please indicate why this is necessary if I am multiplexing and rtcp is enabled. My nat will not timeout. If I am a translator version 0 will not be ignored. Senders octet count will be wrong unless the packet is skipped. All of my previous points still apply and sending a header only repeated would be more complaint no matter the case of use. I will follow errata if I need to but first the points need addressing. Thanks. On Dec 15, 2014 10:54 AM, wrote: > > Hello > > > > I don=E2=80=99t know what version of the draft you are referring to, but = this document was published as RFC 6263 in June 2011. So you may check this final release. > > > > In particular the Introduction section states that ICE and STUN are out of scope. > > > > Aurelien > > > > De : Julius Friedman [mailto:juliusfriedman@gmail.com] > Envoy=C3=A9 : lundi 15 d=C3=A9cembre 2014 16:37 > =C3=80 : draft-ietf-avt-app-rtp-keepalive@tools.ietf.org > Objet : Mail regarding draft-ietf-avt-app-rtp-keepalive > > > > Hello guys, > > Based on the fact this draft cites keep alive are not recommended I would to chime in. > > I would also like to indicate this process causes detected loss in the sender report unless the keep alive packet is not counted. > > Since rtcp is enabled what is timing out? The port mapping for the rtp port? What if im multiplexing on the same port then how does this matter? > > Specifically for non multiplexing why wouldn't ice or stun have their own methods of keeping the port mapping alive? And why should a rtp client have to handle this? > > This seems like a ice or stun change more than rtp. > > Furthermore couldn't you just send a header only packet with the last sequence number etc which should also be Ignored and in a more complaint way. > > Translators may not ignore version 0 packets or dynamic payload types undefined in the sdp. > > Sincerely, > Julius Richard Friedman > > ___________________________________________________________________________= ______________________________________________ > > Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc > pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler > a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, > Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci. > > This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged information that may be protected by law; > they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation. > If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete this message and its attachments. > As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been modified, changed or falsified. > Thank you. --047d7b2e11b1e26f3d050a435f8e Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Thanks for the update.=C2=A0 I see ice is excluded but if st= un etc was also excluded then it should be indicated in the same place.

Please indicate why this is necessary if I am multiplexing a= nd rtcp is enabled.=C2=A0 My nat will not timeout.

If I am a translator version 0 will not be ignored.

Senders octet count will be wrong unless the packet is skipp= ed.

All of my previous points still apply and sending a header o= nly repeated would be more complaint no matter the case of use.

I will follow errata if I need to but first the points need = addressing.

Thanks.
On Dec 15, 2014 10:54 AM, <aurelien.sollaud@orange.com> wrote:
>
> Hello
>
> =C2=A0
>
> I don=E2=80=99t know what version of the draft you are referring to, b= ut this document was published as RFC 6263 in June 2011. So you may check t= his final release.
>
> =C2=A0
>
> In particular the Introduction section states that ICE and STUN are ou= t of scope.
>
> =C2=A0
>
> Aurelien
>
> =C2=A0
>
> De=C2=A0: Julius Friedman [mailto:juliusfriedman@gmail.com]
> Envoy=C3=A9=C2=A0: lundi 15 d=C3=A9cembre 2014 16:37
> =C3=80=C2=A0: draft-ietf-avt-app-rtp-keepalive@tools.ietf.org
> Objet=C2=A0: Mail regarding draft-ietf-avt-app-rtp-keepalive
>
> =C2=A0
>
> Hello guys,
>
> Based on the fact this draft cites keep alive are not recommended I wo= uld to chime in.
>
> I would also like to indicate this process causes detected loss in the= sender report unless the keep alive packet is not counted.
>
> Since rtcp is enabled what is timing out? The port mapping for the rtp= port? What if im multiplexing on the same port then how does this matter?<= br> >
> Specifically for non multiplexing why wouldn't ice or stun have th= eir own methods of keeping the port mapping alive? And why should a rtp cli= ent have to handle this?
>
> This seems like a ice or stun change more than rtp.
>
> Furthermore couldn't you just send a header only packet with the l= ast sequence number etc=C2=A0 which should also be Ignored and in a more co= mplaint way.
>
> Translators may not ignore version 0 packets or dynamic payload types = undefined in the sdp.
>
> Sincerely,
> Julius Richard Friedman
>
> ______________________________________________________________________= ___________________________________________________
>
> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations con= fidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
> pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez= recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
> a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les me= ssages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
> Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deform= e ou falsifie. Merci.
>
> This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privilege= d information that may be protected by law;
> they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.<= br> > If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and= delete this message and its attachments.
> As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have = been modified, changed or falsified.
> Thank you.

--047d7b2e11b1e26f3d050a435f8e-- From nobody Mon Dec 15 08:34:53 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4E751A802F for ; Mon, 15 Dec 2014 08:34:51 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.498 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.498 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_NEUTRAL=0.779] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id w25XVxLhcP9A for ; Mon, 15 Dec 2014 08:34:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from resqmta-ch2-05v.sys.comcast.net (resqmta-ch2-05v.sys.comcast.net [IPv6:2001:558:fe21:29:69:252:207:37]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id ED2441A6FC4 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 2014 08:34:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from resomta-ch2-04v.sys.comcast.net ([69.252.207.100]) by resqmta-ch2-05v.sys.comcast.net with comcast id Tsal1p0022AWL2D01sapNi; Mon, 15 Dec 2014 16:34:49 +0000 Received: from mail-yh0-f42.google.com ([209.85.213.42]) by resomta-ch2-04v.sys.comcast.net with comcast id TsYp1p0080vSxq901sYpM1; Mon, 15 Dec 2014 16:32:49 +0000 Received: by mail-yh0-f42.google.com with SMTP id v1so5274670yhn.15 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 2014 08:32:49 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.236.25.1 with SMTP id y1mr22298679yhy.62.1418661169155; Mon, 15 Dec 2014 08:32:49 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.170.229.84 with HTTP; Mon, 15 Dec 2014 08:32:49 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <6CD85653-1D8F-4E46-8345-70242728B9CB@tno.nl> Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2014 09:32:49 -0700 Message-ID: From: Kevin Gross To: Julius Friedman Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e0115f8720b5bd9050a43cba2 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=comcast.net; s=q20140121; t=1418661289; bh=MGJAOnimVLlUzXiMelJ36w9Yt1k2dLYjooDuTmtM0qU=; h=Received:Received:Received:MIME-Version:Received:Date:Message-ID: Subject:From:To:Content-Type; b=CQhMjjSJ9lNDd+X9s1lYMXAsLwNqkTUoA+QvNRcJqYxjm86V9S3/xMQWgLofg3UnY JFGK/U9RsQIYpSafVuzrbCzvtw0+jNHUyPziUO751Tw3Lx8E6/TPETu8xMt6GgWH1O IG+/47T5Kwk9SatxQSdGJEj+amBPfv8dkZepuMy3x3t2S5KTHMtobxnuwE1fdpDWDq c9GlJbi6I40gwiW6K/MU3cOSbFNGjofDQrQRkcQCjJR6jSb1gK+0kVe3SXECiVDXJ3 K8MB5KzFUkWTe9zZSDw+uqUUqtN5+SD0fPfGrXRFDntrdZg+rRbXLb5yJ7Anvya0Oy KLPmPtrKOxa0A== Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/avt/sOJr-P_6j8FAfkikedYq5kD93IU Cc: "avt@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [AVTCORE] Mail regarding draft-ietf-avtcore-leap-second X-BeenThere: avt@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2014 16:34:52 -0000 --089e0115f8720b5bd9050a43cba2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This draft contains only recommendations, not requirements. You're welcome to treat it as informational. Many have reported to me that it is very helpful for understanding leap-second issues. RFC 7273 can be used in conjunction with this draft to determine whether timestamps in SRs contain leap-seconds. I'm not sure what you're referring to when you say, "Small system dependent implementation of leap year." Kevin Gross - AVA Networks On Mon, Dec 15, 2014 at 8:11 AM, Julius Friedman wrote: > > Granted then 3550 is updated in several standards and not necessarily > obsoleted, maybe thats the problem; whether or not assumptions matter the > details are clearly stated. > > This draft doesn't specifically say how to check or correct this issue > which is should. > > What if one party is not in leap year time and another is? > > Furthermore the senders report is giving you a time to indicate the > senders time for a sample. > > If this information is deemed so important that it makes it to standard > then I don't see why other such issues as the octet count are not also > addressed. > > Two years or not I would assume better later than never. > > Sincerely, > Julius Richard Friedman > On Dec 15, 2014 3:20 AM, "Brandenburg, R. (Ray) van" < > ray.vanbrandenburg@tno.nl> wrote: > >> Hi Julius, >> >> > This rfc also updated 3550 which is obsolete and should update 3551 >> and only reference 3550 when required. >> >> Where do you get the idea that 3550 is obsoleted? >> >> > We assume that the small system dependent implementation of leap year >> needs to be addressed at the rfc level. >> >> With =E2=80=98we=E2=80=99, I assume you mean =E2=80=98you=E2=80=99, sin= ce I haven=E2=80=99t seen your opinion >> on the mailing list in the roughly 2 years since this draft was first >> introduced and it becoming an RFC. >> >> Ray >> >> >> From: Julius Friedman >> Date: Sunday 14 December 2014 18:56 >> To: "draft-ietf-avtcore-leap-second@tools.ietf.org" < >> draft-ietf-avtcore-leap-second@tools.ietf.org> >> Subject: Mail regarding draft-ietf-avtcore-leap-second >> Resent-To: Kevin Gross , Ray van Brandenburg < >> ray.vanbrandenburg@tno.nl> >> >> This is another priceless internet draft. >> >> We assume that the small system dependent implementation of leap year >> needs to be addressed at the rfc level. >> >> We do so without providing anyway to test your implementation to the >> given criteria or test the system to determine if any corrections are >> actually required. >> >> This should at the best case be informational. >> >> It is a larger problem to calculate the payload rate without csrc, >> extension and padding than it would be to account for a leap year, this= is >> especially true if the receiver synchronized to the sender then the time >> difference becomes 0 anyway. >> >> This rfc also updated 3550 which is obsolete and should update 3551 and >> only reference 3550 when required. >> >> Sincerely, >> Julius Richard Friedman >> >> >> >> This message may contain information that is not intended for you. If yo= u >> are not the addressee or if this message was sent to you by mistake, you >> are requested to inform the sender and delete the message. TNO accepts n= o >> liability for the content of this e-mail, for the manner in which you us= e >> it and for damage of any kind resulting from the risks inherent to the >> electronic transmission of messages. >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance > avt@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avt > > --089e0115f8720b5bd9050a43cba2 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
This draft contains only recommendations, not requirements= . You're welcome to treat it as informational. Many have reported to me= that it is very helpful for understanding leap-second issues.

RFC 7273 can be used in conjunction with this draft to determine whe= ther timestamps in SRs contain leap-seconds.

I'= ;m not sure what you're referring to when you say,=C2=A0"Small sys= tem dependent implementation of leap year."

Kevin Gross - AVA Networks

On Mon, Dec 15, 2014 at 8:11 AM, Julius Frie= dman <juliusfriedman@gmail.com> wrote:

Granted then 3550 is updated in several stan= dards and not necessarily obsoleted, maybe thats the problem; whether or no= t assumptions matter the details are clearly stated.

This draft doesn't specifically say how to check or corr= ect this issue which is should.

What if one party is not in leap year time and another is?

Furthermore the senders report is giving you a time to indic= ate the senders time for a sample.

If this information is deemed so important that it makes it = to standard then I don't see why other such issues as the octet count a= re not also addressed.

Two years or not I would assume better later than never.

Sincerely,
Julius Richard Friedman

On Dec 15, 2014 3:20 AM, "Brandenburg, R. (= Ray) van" <ray.vanbrandenburg@tno.nl> wrote:
Hi Julius,

> This rfc also updated 3550 which is obsolete and should update 35= 51 and only reference 3550 when required.

Where do you get the idea that 3550 is obsoleted?

> We assume that the small system dependent implementation of leap = year needs to be addressed at the rfc level.

With =E2=80=98we=E2=80=99, I assume you mean =E2=80=98you=E2=80=99, si= nce I haven=E2=80=99t seen your opinion on the mailing list in the roughly = 2 years since this draft was first introduced and it becoming an RFC.=C2=A0=

Ray


From: Julius Friedman <juliusfriedman@gmail= .com>
Date: Sunday 14 December 2014 18:56=
To: "draft-ietf-avtcor= e-leap-second@tools.ietf.org" <draft-ietf-avtcore-leap-= second@tools.ietf.org>
Subject: Mail regarding draft-ietf-= avtcore-leap-second
Resent-To: Kevin Gross <kevin.gross@avanw.com>, Ray van Brandenburg <ray.vanbrandenburg@tno.nl>

This is another priceless internet draft.

We assume that the small system dependent implementation of = leap year needs to be addressed at the rfc level.

We do so without providing anyway to test your implementatio= n to the given criteria or test the system to determine if any corrections = are actually required.

This should at the best case be informational.

It is a larger problem to calculate the payload rate without= csrc, extension and padding=C2=A0 than it would be to account for a leap y= ear, this is especially true if the receiver synchronized to the sender the= n the time difference becomes 0 anyway.

This rfc also updated 3550 which is obsolete and should upda= te 3551 and only reference 3550 when required.

Sincerely,
Julius Richard Friedman

=C2=A0

This message may contain information that is = not intended for you. If you are not the addressee or if this message was s= ent to you by mistake, you are requested to inform the sender and delete th= e message. TNO accepts no liability for the content of this e-mail, for the= manner in which you use it and for damage of any kind resulting from the r= isks inherent to the electronic transmission of messages.


_______________________________________________
Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance
avt@ietf.org
htt= ps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avt

--089e0115f8720b5bd9050a43cba2-- From nobody Mon Dec 15 08:36:38 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BF841A797C for ; Mon, 15 Dec 2014 08:36:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id f_OB_mCVM7Tf for ; Mon, 15 Dec 2014 08:36:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pd0-x229.google.com (mail-pd0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c02::229]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 39EEC1A6FC4 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 2014 08:36:33 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pd0-f169.google.com with SMTP id z10so11998196pdj.14 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 2014 08:36:32 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=Z/R/De5+dPTnCIqxL1pOVC6dCwwlWag+oDdWJ8ekxKk=; b=Efiw4o4k429+nNDjJfJ4d27ml3gpzegxlliGnK1JHLqfQ/A1ITpSzWlVizbEmQ7dK8 FBn4T15AIZGp8AWqk/imdH0b8uazqjBqkRzCw/4fZ9723stUI3s768phzNfhbk80OBZk e1nNsSCRUpHdKZhkbJnhft5uZxTORuaIN+buXEczV7/pMzEsW1ujDvw+miknuhqRLdPJ Cx1xOVsbJw/qQd5ohsO5/hAdtzkLi96QBuxyzh4EsHx3v9myccmviIh7+9J+NEVP9rO3 6bIs7Lx7th6KrjtYSzyN/D6qvYqhu9f8ofu8+Hz7a6MSdhpmbcahsuXueqgx1d7c2X6J Ilug== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.66.163.196 with SMTP id yk4mr51385752pab.57.1418661391202; Mon, 15 Dec 2014 08:36:31 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.70.117.99 with HTTP; Mon, 15 Dec 2014 08:36:30 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.70.117.99 with HTTP; Mon, 15 Dec 2014 08:36:30 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2014 11:36:30 -0500 Message-ID: From: Julius Friedman To: Kevin Gross , avt@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b86e9ac477e76050a43d8f8 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/avt/XX4mCFD0Un23ob24VBUAwG_3Iiw Subject: Re: [AVTCORE] Mail regarding draft-ietf-avtcore-clksrc X-BeenThere: avt@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2014 16:36:36 -0000 --047d7b86e9ac477e76050a43d8f8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This literally makes no sense because even if I knew what clock the sender was using I might not be able to access it. What if there is confusing information about a source? E.g. its true identity. How is this any better then just adjusting to the sender's time any why.. After all the sender could just as well switch clocks again. Multiple streams are combined by a mixer and hence the mixer accounts for the rate adjusting if required to mix each sample. This doesn't really help a mixer perform that function any easier for the reasons stated and only would under situations where it was designed to. Receivers using legacy algorithms or profiles would still be able to do this if required by their system when required based on better information than conveyed as indicated in this draft. On Dec 15, 2014 11:25 AM, "Kevin Gross" wrote: > > The timestamp in SRs is NTP format but RFC 3550 does not require you to get those time stamps from a specific clock. This RFC (7273) allows you to signal what clock you're using so senders and receivers can synchronize. Prior to RFC 7273, receivers made undisclosed assumptions about clocks or simply adjusted empirically to whatever clocking the sender is doing. The improvement here is to have a common clock for multiple senders so that streams can be readily combined at a receiver that is receiving multiple streams from different senders. > > Kevin Gross - AVA Networks > > On Mon, Dec 15, 2014 at 7:53 AM, Julius Friedman wrote: >> >> I'll check out that section and re-write in if necessary. >> >> One thing on your response I have to clarify. >> The sr allowed this synchronization. >> >> The reference clock is virtually set to the time difference between the ntp timestamp in the sender report and the receiver. >> >> That's seems synchronized to me. >> >> What difference does it make if his clock is wrong? Furthermore if sender uses a clock on mars. >> >> Can you succinctly state why we need to know more details about clock rate than already available 20 years later? >> >> How does my application benefit from this? >> >> Furthermore it seems dynamic clock rates are not addressed. >> >> Thanks for responding. >> >> On Dec 15, 2014 3:11 AM, "Brandenburg, R. (Ray) van" < ray.vanbrandenburg@tno.nl> wrote: >>> >>> Hi Julius, >>> >>> Thanks for your constructive and positively-formulated feedback. >>> >>> I advise you to read section 2 on Applications. It will answer most of your questions. >>> >>> Furthermore, you seem to have missed a number of aspects: >>> >>> - There is a difference between a media clock and a reference clock. I don=E2=80=99t see how any RTP profile or current SDP is going to help you t= o know which reference clock you=E2=80=99re using. Without that information, how a= re you going to synchronize two different receivers? >>> - There is a difference between specifying a media clock rate (which is done in an RTP profile) and specifying how that clock rate is determined. >>> >>> If you have any more questions, I encourage you to voice your opinion on the AVT mailing list. >>> >>> Best regards, >>> >>> Ray >>> >>> >>> From: Julius Friedman >>> Date: Sunday 14 December 2014 18:37 >>> To: "draft-ietf-avtcore-clksrc@tools.ietf.org" < draft-ietf-avtcore-clksrc@tools.ietf.org> >>> Subject: Mail regarding draft-ietf-avtcore-clksrc >>> Resent-To: "aidan.williams@audinate.com" , , Kevin Gross , Ray van Brandenburg >>> >>> What is the purpose of this rfc? >>> >>> After reading it several times I just cannot come to terms with anything it suggests. >>> >>> Rfc 3550 conveys the ntp time information via rtcp et al. >>> >>> There is no reason to signal rate of media in sdp beyond where each rtp profile registered has a default clock rate assigned especially when the document provides no mechanism to align the clocks in which it declared might not be synchronized. (Even though that is the purpose of ntp... ) >>> >>> Here is a simple explanation. >>> http://www.cs.columbia.edu/~hgs/rtp/faq.html#sr-timestamp >>> >>> Furthermore each implementation already has the clock rate as a parameter of the rtpmap or fmtp or the profile default is used. >>> >>> This document makes sdp content longer and more complex without any added benefit or explanation of the mechanism introduced. >>> >>> Lastly Video walls wouldn't need a specified rate to work as they would have their own rate and update displays based on that rate. >>> >>> Any such required information would be an optimiZation to their display driver through the operating system, do you really want a rtp sender to be able to control the clock rate of your display? If you do use snmp or something else. >>> >>> Things have worked like this for as long as rtp has been specified and thus this rfc only allows information to be given which is redundant given the fact a profile which would be required for playback through depacketization anyway. >>> >>> This document also makes no change to any calculation used by a receiver or sender. >>> >>> It is for all intents and purposes useless. >>> >>> Please feel free to correct me. >>> >>> Sincerely, >>> Julius Friedman. >>> >>> >>> >>> This message may contain information that is not intended for you. If you are not the addressee or if this message was sent to you by mistake, you are requested to inform the sender and delete the message. TNO accepts no liability for the content of this e-mail, for the manner in which you use it and for damage of any kind resulting from the risks inherent to the electronic transmission of messages. >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance >> avt@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avt >> --047d7b86e9ac477e76050a43d8f8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

This literally makes no sense because even if I knew what cl= ock the sender was using I might not be able to access it.

What if there is confusing information about a source?=C2=A0= E.g. its true identity.

How is this any better then just adjusting to the sender'= ;s time any why..

After all the sender could just as well switch clocks again.=

Multiple streams are combined by a mixer and hence the mixer= accounts for the rate adjusting if required to mix each sample.

This doesn't really help a mixer perform that function a= ny easier for the reasons stated and only would under situations where it w= as designed to.

Receivers using legacy algorithms or profiles would still be= able to do this if required by their system when required based on better = information than conveyed as indicated in this draft.=C2=A0

On Dec 15, 2014 11:25 AM, "Kevin Gross" <kevin.gross@avanw.com> wrote:
>
> The timestamp in SRs is NTP format but RFC 3550 does not require you t= o get those time stamps from a specific clock. This RFC (7273) allows you t= o signal what clock you're using so senders and receivers can synchroni= ze. Prior to RFC 7273, receivers made undisclosed assumptions about clocks = or simply adjusted empirically to whatever clocking the sender is doing. Th= e improvement here is to have a common clock for multiple senders so that s= treams can be readily combined at a receiver that is receiving multiple str= eams from different senders.
>
> Kevin Gross - AVA Networks
>
> On Mon, Dec 15, 2014 at 7:53 AM, Julius Friedman <juliusfriedman@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I'll check out that section and re-write in if necessary.
>>
>> One thing on your response I have to clarify.
>> The sr allowed this synchronization.
>>
>> The reference clock is virtually set to the time difference betwee= n the ntp timestamp in the sender report and the receiver.
>>
>> That's seems synchronized to me.
>>
>> What difference does it make if his clock is wrong? Furthermore if= sender uses a clock on mars.
>>
>> Can you succinctly state why we need to know more details about cl= ock rate than already available 20 years later?
>>
>> How does my application benefit from this?
>>
>> Furthermore it seems dynamic clock rates are not addressed.
>>
>> Thanks for responding.
>>
>> On Dec 15, 2014 3:11 AM, "Brandenburg, R. (Ray) van" <= ;ray.vanbrandenburg@tno.nl= > wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Julius,
>>>
>>> Thanks for your constructive and positively-formulated feedbac= k.=C2=A0
>>>
>>> I advise you to read section 2 on Applications. It will answer= most of your questions.=C2=A0
>>>
>>> Furthermore, you seem to have missed a number of aspects:
>>>
>>> - There is a difference between a media clock and a reference = clock. I don=E2=80=99t see how any RTP profile or current SDP is going to h= elp you to know which reference clock you=E2=80=99re using. Without that in= formation, how are you going to synchronize two different receivers?=C2=A0<= br> >>> - There is a difference between specifying a media clock rate = (which is done in an RTP profile) and specifying how that clock rate is det= ermined.=C2=A0
>>>
>>> If you have any more questions, I encourage you to voice your = opinion on the AVT mailing list.
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>>
>>> Ray
>>>
>>>
>>> From: Julius Friedman <juliusfriedman@gmail.com>
>>> Date: Sunday 14 December 2014 18:37
>>> To: "draft-ietf-avtcore-clksrc@tools.ietf.org" <draft-ietf-avtcore-clksrc@t= ools.ietf.org>
>>> Subject: Mail regarding draft-ietf-avtcore-clksrc
>>> Resent-To: "aidan.williams@audinate.com" <aidan.williams@audinate.com>, <hans.stokking@tno.nl>, Kevin Gross <kevin.gross@avanw.com>, Ray van Br= andenburg <ray.vanbrandenbu= rg@tno.nl>
>>>
>>> What is the purpose of this rfc?
>>>
>>> After reading it several times I just cannot come to terms wit= h anything it suggests.
>>>
>>> Rfc 3550 conveys the ntp time information via rtcp et al.
>>>
>>> There is no reason to signal rate of media in sdp beyond where= each rtp profile registered has a default clock rate assigned especially w= hen the document provides no mechanism to align the clocks in which it decl= ared might not be synchronized. (Even though that is the purpose of ntp... = )
>>>
>>> Here is a simple explanation.
>>> http://www.cs.columbia.edu/~hgs/rtp/faq.html#sr-timestamp
>>>
>>> Furthermore each implementation already has the clock rate as = a parameter of the rtpmap or fmtp or the profile default is used.
>>>
>>> This document makes sdp content longer and more complex withou= t any added benefit or explanation of the mechanism introduced.
>>>
>>> Lastly Video walls wouldn't need a specified rate to work = as they would have their own rate and update displays based on that rate. >>>
>>> Any such required information would be an optimiZation to thei= r display driver through the operating system, do you really want a rtp sen= der to be able to control the clock rate of your display? If you do use snm= p or something else.
>>>
>>> Things have worked like this for as long as rtp has been speci= fied and thus this rfc only allows information to be given which is redunda= nt given the fact a profile which would be required for playback through de= packetization anyway.
>>>
>>> This document also makes no change to any calculation used by = a receiver or sender.
>>>
>>> It is for all intents and purposes useless.
>>>
>>> Please feel free to correct me.
>>>
>>> Sincerely,
>>> Julius Friedman.
>>>
>>> =C2=A0
>>>
>>> This message may contain information that is not intended for = you. If you are not the addressee or if this message was sent to you by mis= take, you are requested to inform the sender and delete the message. TNO ac= cepts no liability for the content of this e-mail, for the manner in which = you use it and for damage of any kind resulting from the risks inherent to = the electronic transmission of messages.
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance
>> avt@ietf.org
>> https://www.= ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avt
>>

--047d7b86e9ac477e76050a43d8f8-- From nobody Mon Dec 15 08:52:41 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9DFD1A8029 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 2014 08:52:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.498 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.498 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_NEUTRAL=0.779] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QzcVLevBAquq for ; Mon, 15 Dec 2014 08:52:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from resqmta-po-06v.sys.comcast.net (resqmta-po-06v.sys.comcast.net [IPv6:2001:558:fe16:19:96:114:154:165]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 674461A8545 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 2014 08:52:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from resomta-po-19v.sys.comcast.net ([96.114.154.243]) by resqmta-po-06v.sys.comcast.net with comcast id Tsnq1p0055FMDhs01ssaU4; Mon, 15 Dec 2014 16:52:34 +0000 Received: from mail-yh0-f49.google.com ([209.85.213.49]) by resomta-po-19v.sys.comcast.net with comcast id TsqZ1p00K14WgC101sqZ6n; Mon, 15 Dec 2014 16:50:34 +0000 Received: by mail-yh0-f49.google.com with SMTP id f10so5240615yha.8 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 2014 08:50:33 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.170.55.138 with SMTP id 132mr26071390ykx.77.1418662233528; Mon, 15 Dec 2014 08:50:33 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.170.229.84 with HTTP; Mon, 15 Dec 2014 08:50:33 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <6CD85653-1D8F-4E46-8345-70242728B9CB@tno.nl> Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2014 09:50:33 -0700 Message-ID: From: Kevin Gross To: Julius Friedman Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113a05d87c61bf050a440ae6 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=comcast.net; s=q20140121; t=1418662354; bh=y6aJkL6dwexujRXuZYmq1gFKnvm6tXIR1zbxoox2TzE=; h=Received:Received:Received:MIME-Version:Received:Date:Message-ID: Subject:From:To:Content-Type; b=mYyImHd36BzsOO7nWz72ltcvvdFHswdMBd9QQmDBI0Tpgos2w3i9q+I2W/0FWxNaP XfKxP85nOEVJPB9HNhCM0QMuciC2lytFqWvugqah+o617bzSMuV851Sijboc6pdAKF gRaPloEOe+yaYQJ2e4kd+RUxz7vRAP56MfPjHOEIiHnZP1HW8uJ9ektzlDozgISHhM 9plPeLktEVcR7lunc8QUXUhZY6u/ZBTyAVyO3akXXNDN5BPvhtxao3i1vpP7gve9Xs 38+GauJlxMgcPkyf7IaEe5shIZxns0b2nuylfUB2tX3lo5uOebIOpYbAq20MZRl9dL DTgwH9lEt79dQ== Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/avt/OI9bfP9lA_u-nuef3A0N0iUaIxE Cc: "avt@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [AVTCORE] Mail regarding draft-ietf-avtcore-leap-second X-BeenThere: avt@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2014 16:52:39 -0000 --001a113a05d87c61bf050a440ae6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The recommendations have been designed to handle two leap-second insertion techniques. The recommendations are robust enough to handle either/both without knowing which are in play. The recommendations explicitly do not accommodate "time-warping technichniques" (see references [4] and [5]) and recommends that these not be used as an NTP timestamp reference. Kevin Gross - AVA Networks On Mon, Dec 15, 2014 at 9:42 AM, Julius Friedman wrote: > > Thanks for the response. > > I meant how can this draft determine how my operating system handled leap > year insertion? > > Since it doesn't provide a method of detection then its informational and > may not apply. > > Hence my comments. > > Also since by the time the sr was received the again the difference would > be absorbed it would not be worthwhile to calculate and would be better = to > monitor for time difference as usual. > > I also believe that its helpful to note that the senders octet count > results in an invalid payload rate when csrc or extension ot padding is > used but I guess I was also told to draft a rfc for the same reason. > > Anyway those were my thoughts and hence why I chimed in. > On Dec 15, 2014 11:34 AM, "Kevin Gross" wrote: > >> This draft contains only recommendations, not requirements. You're >> welcome to treat it as informational. Many have reported to me that it i= s >> very helpful for understanding leap-second issues. >> >> RFC 7273 can be used in conjunction with this draft to determine whether >> timestamps in SRs contain leap-seconds. >> >> I'm not sure what you're referring to when you say, "Small system >> dependent implementation of leap year." >> >> Kevin Gross - AVA Networks >> >> On Mon, Dec 15, 2014 at 8:11 AM, Julius Friedman < >> juliusfriedman@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>> Granted then 3550 is updated in several standards and not necessarily >>> obsoleted, maybe thats the problem; whether or not assumptions matter t= he >>> details are clearly stated. >>> >>> This draft doesn't specifically say how to check or correct this issue >>> which is should. >>> >>> What if one party is not in leap year time and another is? >>> >>> Furthermore the senders report is giving you a time to indicate the >>> senders time for a sample. >>> >>> If this information is deemed so important that it makes it to standard >>> then I don't see why other such issues as the octet count are not also >>> addressed. >>> >>> Two years or not I would assume better later than never. >>> >>> Sincerely, >>> Julius Richard Friedman >>> On Dec 15, 2014 3:20 AM, "Brandenburg, R. (Ray) van" < >>> ray.vanbrandenburg@tno.nl> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Julius, >>>> >>>> > This rfc also updated 3550 which is obsolete and should update >>>> 3551 and only reference 3550 when required. >>>> >>>> Where do you get the idea that 3550 is obsoleted? >>>> >>>> > We assume that the small system dependent implementation of leap >>>> year needs to be addressed at the rfc level. >>>> >>>> With =E2=80=98we=E2=80=99, I assume you mean =E2=80=98you=E2=80=99, s= ince I haven=E2=80=99t seen your opinion >>>> on the mailing list in the roughly 2 years since this draft was first >>>> introduced and it becoming an RFC. >>>> >>>> Ray >>>> >>>> >>>> From: Julius Friedman >>>> Date: Sunday 14 December 2014 18:56 >>>> To: "draft-ietf-avtcore-leap-second@tools.ietf.org" < >>>> draft-ietf-avtcore-leap-second@tools.ietf.org> >>>> Subject: Mail regarding draft-ietf-avtcore-leap-second >>>> Resent-To: Kevin Gross , Ray van Brandenburg < >>>> ray.vanbrandenburg@tno.nl> >>>> >>>> This is another priceless internet draft. >>>> >>>> We assume that the small system dependent implementation of leap year >>>> needs to be addressed at the rfc level. >>>> >>>> We do so without providing anyway to test your implementation to the >>>> given criteria or test the system to determine if any corrections are >>>> actually required. >>>> >>>> This should at the best case be informational. >>>> >>>> It is a larger problem to calculate the payload rate without csrc, >>>> extension and padding than it would be to account for a leap year, th= is is >>>> especially true if the receiver synchronized to the sender then the ti= me >>>> difference becomes 0 anyway. >>>> >>>> This rfc also updated 3550 which is obsolete and should update 3551 an= d >>>> only reference 3550 when required. >>>> >>>> Sincerely, >>>> Julius Richard Friedman >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> This message may contain information that is not intended for you. If >>>> you are not the addressee or if this message was sent to you by mistak= e, >>>> you are requested to inform the sender and delete the message. TNO acc= epts >>>> no liability for the content of this e-mail, for the manner in which y= ou >>>> use it and for damage of any kind resulting from the risks inherent to= the >>>> electronic transmission of messages. >>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance >>> avt@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avt >>> >>> --001a113a05d87c61bf050a440ae6 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The recommendations have been designed to handle two leap-= second insertion techniques. The recommendations are robust enough to handl= e either/both without knowing which are in play. The recommendations explic= itly do not accommodate "time-warping technichniques" (see refere= nces [4] and [5]) and recommends that these not be used as an NTP timestamp= reference.

Kevin Gross - AVA Networks

On Mon, Dec 15, 2014 at 9:42 AM, Julius Frie= dman <juliusfriedman@gmail.com> wrote:

Thanks for the response.

I meant how can this draft determine how my operating system= handled leap year insertion?

Since it doesn't provide a method of detection then its = informational and may not apply.

Hence my comments.

Also since by the time the sr was received the again the dif= ference would be absorbed it would not=C2=A0 be worthwhile to calculate and= would be better to monitor for time difference as usual.

I also believe that its helpful to note that the senders oct= et count results in an invalid payload rate when csrc or extension ot paddi= ng is used but I guess I was also told to draft a rfc for the same reason. =

Anyway those were my thoughts and hence why I chimed in.

=
On Dec 15, 2014 11:34 AM, "Kevin Gross"= ; <kevin.gros= s@avanw.com> wrote:
This draft contains only recommendations, not requi= rements. You're welcome to treat it as informational. Many have reporte= d to me that it is very helpful for understanding leap-second issues.
<= br>
RFC 7273 can be used in conjunction with this draft to determ= ine whether timestamps in SRs contain leap-seconds.

I'm not sure what you're referring to when you say,=C2=A0"Sm= all system dependent implementation of leap year."

Kevin Gross - AVA= Networks

On Mon, Dec 15, 2014 at 8:11 AM, Julius Frie= dman <juliusfriedman@gmail.com> wrote:

Granted then 3550 is updated in several stan= dards and not necessarily obsoleted, maybe thats the problem; whether or no= t assumptions matter the details are clearly stated.

This draft doesn't specifically say how to check or corr= ect this issue which is should.

What if one party is not in leap year time and another is?

Furthermore the senders report is giving you a time to indic= ate the senders time for a sample.

If this information is deemed so important that it makes it = to standard then I don't see why other such issues as the octet count a= re not also addressed.

Two years or not I would assume better later than never.

Sincerely,
Julius Richard Friedman

On Dec 15, 2014 3:20 AM, "Brandenburg, R. (= Ray) van" <ray.vanbrandenburg@tno.nl> wrote:
Hi Julius,

> This rfc also updated 3550 which is obsolete and should update 35= 51 and only reference 3550 when required.

Where do you get the idea that 3550 is obsoleted?

> We assume that the small system dependent implementation of leap = year needs to be addressed at the rfc level.

With =E2=80=98we=E2=80=99, I assume you mean =E2=80=98you=E2=80=99, si= nce I haven=E2=80=99t seen your opinion on the mailing list in the roughly = 2 years since this draft was first introduced and it becoming an RFC.=C2=A0=

Ray


From: Julius Friedman <juliusfriedman@gmail= .com>
Date: Sunday 14 December 2014 18:56=
To: "draft-ietf-avtcor= e-leap-second@tools.ietf.org" <draft-ietf-avtcore-leap-= second@tools.ietf.org>
Subject: Mail regarding draft-ietf-= avtcore-leap-second
Resent-To: Kevin Gross <kevin.gross@avanw.com>, Ray van Brandenburg <ray.vanbrandenburg@tno.nl>

This is another priceless internet draft.

We assume that the small system dependent implementation of = leap year needs to be addressed at the rfc level.

We do so without providing anyway to test your implementatio= n to the given criteria or test the system to determine if any corrections = are actually required.

This should at the best case be informational.

It is a larger problem to calculate the payload rate without= csrc, extension and padding=C2=A0 than it would be to account for a leap y= ear, this is especially true if the receiver synchronized to the sender the= n the time difference becomes 0 anyway.

This rfc also updated 3550 which is obsolete and should upda= te 3551 and only reference 3550 when required.

Sincerely,
Julius Richard Friedman

=C2=A0

This message may contain information that is = not intended for you. If you are not the addressee or if this message was s= ent to you by mistake, you are requested to inform the sender and delete th= e message. TNO accepts no liability for the content of this e-mail, for the= manner in which you use it and for damage of any kind resulting from the r= isks inherent to the electronic transmission of messages.


_______________________________________________
Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance
avt@ietf.org
htt= ps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avt

--001a113a05d87c61bf050a440ae6-- From nobody Mon Dec 15 08:59:14 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4456E1A86F5 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 2014 08:59:12 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 47493J6AJFtJ for ; Mon, 15 Dec 2014 08:59:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pa0-x22a.google.com (mail-pa0-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c03::22a]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 224B31A86E5 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 2014 08:59:04 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pa0-f42.google.com with SMTP id et14so12228612pad.1 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 2014 08:59:03 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=TARSt44nWJCXMTr3Qhbh+Q//EsRaorydvipbjsYxppM=; b=ZAWSUU2WyDZi3ucFdviqz6z3QD/+zkX/DwqltJvAAR8cZEhrLU1yenZeBpS+cs86PP g40jMw9j8OKJISl/c4aldmcvL+R2Aes12vO4g85Yr7Q30fTkf9CS9U1gz2YiGrIZTCyU N1QS0FaG/jum031WRoLXeih4pJdbnRNLpN+ok9+8p9W97N77Het/1uAEQcOEVfqsErZg G/2A0EdRnMqIyEosoWYwjNcwpyTgY0aCOZ7XqN6uRw+FWB7Yrx6uiwbs2GivBJ1CRA/W 6fuVIt/9qerL0uRbIy3fJ/k12cvJjdkuxaUUYEIpk/SO3w9qtljd4IzNYfJkahVTnSRi 9aUA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.68.211.193 with SMTP id ne1mr53153610pbc.49.1418662743317; Mon, 15 Dec 2014 08:59:03 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.70.117.99 with HTTP; Mon, 15 Dec 2014 08:59:03 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.70.117.99 with HTTP; Mon, 15 Dec 2014 08:59:03 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <6CD85653-1D8F-4E46-8345-70242728B9CB@tno.nl> Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2014 11:59:03 -0500 Message-ID: From: Julius Friedman To: Kevin Gross , avt@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=e89a8fb208e8df2373050a4428fc Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/avt/pfzf20Fax0RkK2aLX8OniHGSLAI Subject: Re: [AVTCORE] Mail regarding draft-ietf-avtcore-leap-second X-BeenThere: avt@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2014 16:59:12 -0000 --e89a8fb208e8df2373050a4428fc Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable So who says there is only two ways? How about if the receiver is not in a leap year when the sender is? E.g north Korea or on another planet. How can a system test itself to see if this recommedation is applicable or the other type system to determine which way to use or if any changes are even required. I believe this response doesn't answer how using ntp is not better and ignores that the clock can still change. On Dec 15, 2014 11:52 AM, "Kevin Gross" wrote: > The recommendations have been designed to handle two leap-second insertio= n > techniques. The recommendations are robust enough to handle either/both > without knowing which are in play. The recommendations explicitly do not > accommodate "time-warping technichniques" (see references [4] and [5]) an= d > recommends that these not be used as an NTP timestamp reference. > > Kevin Gross - AVA Networks > > On Mon, Dec 15, 2014 at 9:42 AM, Julius Friedman > wrote: >> >> Thanks for the response. >> >> I meant how can this draft determine how my operating system handled lea= p >> year insertion? >> >> Since it doesn't provide a method of detection then its informational an= d >> may not apply. >> >> Hence my comments. >> >> Also since by the time the sr was received the again the difference woul= d >> be absorbed it would not be worthwhile to calculate and would be better= to >> monitor for time difference as usual. >> >> I also believe that its helpful to note that the senders octet count >> results in an invalid payload rate when csrc or extension ot padding is >> used but I guess I was also told to draft a rfc for the same reason. >> >> Anyway those were my thoughts and hence why I chimed in. >> On Dec 15, 2014 11:34 AM, "Kevin Gross" wrote: >> >>> This draft contains only recommendations, not requirements. You're >>> welcome to treat it as informational. Many have reported to me that it = is >>> very helpful for understanding leap-second issues. >>> >>> RFC 7273 can be used in conjunction with this draft to determine whethe= r >>> timestamps in SRs contain leap-seconds. >>> >>> I'm not sure what you're referring to when you say, "Small system >>> dependent implementation of leap year." >>> >>> Kevin Gross - AVA Networks >>> >>> On Mon, Dec 15, 2014 at 8:11 AM, Julius Friedman < >>> juliusfriedman@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>> Granted then 3550 is updated in several standards and not necessarily >>>> obsoleted, maybe thats the problem; whether or not assumptions matter = the >>>> details are clearly stated. >>>> >>>> This draft doesn't specifically say how to check or correct this issue >>>> which is should. >>>> >>>> What if one party is not in leap year time and another is? >>>> >>>> Furthermore the senders report is giving you a time to indicate the >>>> senders time for a sample. >>>> >>>> If this information is deemed so important that it makes it to standar= d >>>> then I don't see why other such issues as the octet count are not also >>>> addressed. >>>> >>>> Two years or not I would assume better later than never. >>>> >>>> Sincerely, >>>> Julius Richard Friedman >>>> On Dec 15, 2014 3:20 AM, "Brandenburg, R. (Ray) van" < >>>> ray.vanbrandenburg@tno.nl> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi Julius, >>>>> >>>>> > This rfc also updated 3550 which is obsolete and should update >>>>> 3551 and only reference 3550 when required. >>>>> >>>>> Where do you get the idea that 3550 is obsoleted? >>>>> >>>>> > We assume that the small system dependent implementation of leap >>>>> year needs to be addressed at the rfc level. >>>>> >>>>> With =E2=80=98we=E2=80=99, I assume you mean =E2=80=98you=E2=80=99, = since I haven=E2=80=99t seen your >>>>> opinion on the mailing list in the roughly 2 years since this draft w= as >>>>> first introduced and it becoming an RFC. >>>>> >>>>> Ray >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> From: Julius Friedman >>>>> Date: Sunday 14 December 2014 18:56 >>>>> To: "draft-ietf-avtcore-leap-second@tools.ietf.org" < >>>>> draft-ietf-avtcore-leap-second@tools.ietf.org> >>>>> Subject: Mail regarding draft-ietf-avtcore-leap-second >>>>> Resent-To: Kevin Gross , Ray van Brandenburg < >>>>> ray.vanbrandenburg@tno.nl> >>>>> >>>>> This is another priceless internet draft. >>>>> >>>>> We assume that the small system dependent implementation of leap year >>>>> needs to be addressed at the rfc level. >>>>> >>>>> We do so without providing anyway to test your implementation to the >>>>> given criteria or test the system to determine if any corrections are >>>>> actually required. >>>>> >>>>> This should at the best case be informational. >>>>> >>>>> It is a larger problem to calculate the payload rate without csrc, >>>>> extension and padding than it would be to account for a leap year, t= his is >>>>> especially true if the receiver synchronized to the sender then the t= ime >>>>> difference becomes 0 anyway. >>>>> >>>>> This rfc also updated 3550 which is obsolete and should update 3551 >>>>> and only reference 3550 when required. >>>>> >>>>> Sincerely, >>>>> Julius Richard Friedman >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> This message may contain information that is not intended for you. If >>>>> you are not the addressee or if this message was sent to you by mista= ke, >>>>> you are requested to inform the sender and delete the message. TNO ac= cepts >>>>> no liability for the content of this e-mail, for the manner in which = you >>>>> use it and for damage of any kind resulting from the risks inherent t= o the >>>>> electronic transmission of messages. >>>>> >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance >>>> avt@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avt >>>> >>>> --e89a8fb208e8df2373050a4428fc Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

So who says there is only two ways?

How about if the receiver is not in a leap year when the sen= der is? E.g north Korea or on another planet.

How can a system test itself to see if this recommedation is= applicable or the other type system to determine which way to use or if an= y changes are even required.

I believe this response doesn't answer how using ntp is = not better and ignores that the clock can still change.

On Dec 15, 2014 11:52 AM, "Kevin Gross"= ; <kevin.gross@avanw.com>= ; wrote:
The recommendations have been designed to handle two leap-second inse= rtion techniques. The recommendations are robust enough to handle either/bo= th without knowing which are in play. The recommendations explicitly do not= accommodate "time-warping technichniques" (see references [4] an= d [5]) and recommends that these not be used as an NTP timestamp reference.=

Kevin Gross - AVA Networks

On Mon, Dec 15, 2014 at 9:42 AM, Julius Frie= dman <juliusfriedman@gmail.com> wrote:

Thanks for the response.

I meant how can this draft determine how my operating system= handled leap year insertion?

Since it doesn't provide a method of detection then its = informational and may not apply.

Hence my comments.

Also since by the time the sr was received the again the dif= ference would be absorbed it would not=C2=A0 be worthwhile to calculate and= would be better to monitor for time difference as usual.

I also believe that its helpful to note that the senders oct= et count results in an invalid payload rate when csrc or extension ot paddi= ng is used but I guess I was also told to draft a rfc for the same reason. =

Anyway those were my thoughts and hence why I chimed in.

=
On Dec 15, 2014 11:34 AM, "Kevin Gross"= ; <kevin.gros= s@avanw.com> wrote:
This draft contains only recommendations, not requi= rements. You're welcome to treat it as informational. Many have reporte= d to me that it is very helpful for understanding leap-second issues.
<= br>
RFC 7273 can be used in conjunction with this draft to determ= ine whether timestamps in SRs contain leap-seconds.

I'm not sure what you're referring to when you say,=C2=A0"Sm= all system dependent implementation of leap year."

Kevin Gross - AVA= Networks

On Mon, Dec 15, 2014 at 8:11 AM, Julius Frie= dman <juliusfriedman@gmail.com> wrote:

Granted then 3550 is updated in several stan= dards and not necessarily obsoleted, maybe thats the problem; whether or no= t assumptions matter the details are clearly stated.

This draft doesn't specifically say how to check or corr= ect this issue which is should.

What if one party is not in leap year time and another is?

Furthermore the senders report is giving you a time to indic= ate the senders time for a sample.

If this information is deemed so important that it makes it = to standard then I don't see why other such issues as the octet count a= re not also addressed.

Two years or not I would assume better later than never.

Sincerely,
Julius Richard Friedman

On Dec 15, 2014 3:20 AM, "Brandenburg, R. (= Ray) van" <ray.vanbrandenburg@tno.nl> wrote:
Hi Julius,

> This rfc also updated 3550 which is obsolete and should update 35= 51 and only reference 3550 when required.

Where do you get the idea that 3550 is obsoleted?

> We assume that the small system dependent implementation of leap = year needs to be addressed at the rfc level.

With =E2=80=98we=E2=80=99, I assume you mean =E2=80=98you=E2=80=99, si= nce I haven=E2=80=99t seen your opinion on the mailing list in the roughly = 2 years since this draft was first introduced and it becoming an RFC.=C2=A0=

Ray


From: Julius Friedman <juliusfriedman@gmail= .com>
Date: Sunday 14 December 2014 18:56=
To: "draft-ietf-avtcor= e-leap-second@tools.ietf.org" <draft-ietf-avtcore-leap-= second@tools.ietf.org>
Subject: Mail regarding draft-ietf-= avtcore-leap-second
Resent-To: Kevin Gross <kevin.gross@avanw.com>, Ray van Brandenburg <ray.vanbrandenburg@tno.nl>

This is another priceless internet draft.

We assume that the small system dependent implementation of = leap year needs to be addressed at the rfc level.

We do so without providing anyway to test your implementatio= n to the given criteria or test the system to determine if any corrections = are actually required.

This should at the best case be informational.

It is a larger problem to calculate the payload rate without= csrc, extension and padding=C2=A0 than it would be to account for a leap y= ear, this is especially true if the receiver synchronized to the sender the= n the time difference becomes 0 anyway.

This rfc also updated 3550 which is obsolete and should upda= te 3551 and only reference 3550 when required.

Sincerely,
Julius Richard Friedman

=C2=A0

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--e89a8fb208e8df2373050a4428fc-- From nobody Tue Dec 16 08:35:37 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E3831A6EEF for ; Tue, 16 Dec 2014 08:35:25 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KxdctxySH2Ko for ; Tue, 16 Dec 2014 08:35:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pd0-x233.google.com (mail-pd0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c02::233]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 158531A1EE8 for ; Tue, 16 Dec 2014 08:35:16 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pd0-f179.google.com with SMTP id fp1so14270558pdb.10 for ; Tue, 16 Dec 2014 08:35:15 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=wAdIRvJimHW1jKbNy+6XT2jTBcPZ+Su4eB/T7mVBbmw=; b=hOFu9NiJ6NVDExX8JilkjWsas7keh2XkiV44eNGJv1Do7zvEct4A0ZrO9q/g6lwzL3 0KjTybaoUpiEMyhPFE0DJS/AmqQrWdSXy8sUQ/KdUAHEfLa2RHyJ1JHWT5cpi2MULPZ0 3dGfuTN3MG+0sKdSewnTuRcUTa8zoGWPJ45Cb6WuN4Xjh0Pxo//xsMIrHWbNNuAu3tBC /UUlO0sBb87SWhoeq95DqhkYJBNlX2dhukAqvOHjNKlwDgDlVFlFooGd4Tp2IOjYOaa3 btusiC8QbRE3sxxrPag02HGpH/Qvqa2kSCeZCiNIhjDFYopmlisKLt449cNUk2vJ0P9U Ou6g== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.66.122.100 with SMTP id lr4mr61754931pab.56.1418747714712; Tue, 16 Dec 2014 08:35:14 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.70.117.99 with HTTP; Tue, 16 Dec 2014 08:35:14 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.70.117.99 with HTTP; Tue, 16 Dec 2014 08:35:14 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2014 11:35:14 -0500 Message-ID: From: Julius Friedman To: "R. (Ray) van Brandenburg" , avt@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b2e0de78fbbc8050a57f198 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/avt/MCpYROXBs9fKyvkXXm1eisORzV8 Subject: Re: [AVTCORE] Mail regarding draft-ietf-avtcore-clksrc X-BeenThere: avt@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2014 16:35:25 -0000 --047d7b2e0de78fbbc8050a57f198 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Unfortunately I disagree. Rtp connected speakers dont have to be synchronized to each other. If they did each speaker would adhere to the spec as it's own reciever and handle loss as indicated in the standard. They could also have their own mechanism for synchronicity as provided by the transport layer. The scenario is no different than a conference where all the participants are spread out over vast distances or routes with congestion. There is no reason to obtain or know the clock rate other than how it had already been specified because the senders report provides this functionality for multiple streams and single streams. Doing so in the manner specified by this draft is not backwards compatible and provides nothing to prevent the clock rate from changing right after it has been conveyed. There is no benefit, we didn't need this mechanism 20 years ago and we certainly dont now. Because of those reasons as well as the others i have cited my position is firm until a succinctly defined scenario is defined in which prior mechanisms fail or it is shown a clear and hassle free benefit of complying with this draft. After all if I ignored it I would play data the exact same way as if it was in use. The sr would adapt receiver losses as it always has. This might be better as some informational document and even then I question its applicability in face of existing mechanisms which are better defined and more reliable. Sincerely, Julius Richard Friedman On Dec 16, 2014 11:02 AM, "Brandenburg, R. (Ray) van" < ray.vanbrandenburg@tno.nl> wrote: > Hi Julius, > > > > I think we=E2=80=99re talking about two different use cases. The use you = seem to > have in mind is one where the issue at hand is synchronization of two or > more streams on a single device. For that purpose, you=E2=80=99re right t= hat it > doesn=E2=80=99t matter which clock you=E2=80=99re using (as you mention, = it might as well > be a Mars-based one). > > > > The use case that is discussed in the RFC is where you have multiple > receivers and where the goal is to make sure that the streams being playe= d > out are synchronized between the various receivers. Imagine a stadium whe= re > you have multiple RTP-connected speakers. In that case, it is very > important that the reference clock they are using is the same, or at leas= t > that you know the offset between those clocks. > > > This literally makes no sense because even if I knew what clock the > sender was using I might not be able to access it. > > Well, this draft solves the former problem, knowing which clock the sende= r > was using. Not having access to that particular server is another problem > altogether. As long as that is not the case in the overwhelming majority = of > the cases, I don=E2=80=99t think that is reason to disqualify this work. > > > > Ray > > > > *From:* avt [mailto:avt-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Julius Friedman > *Sent:* maandag 15 december 2014 17:37 > *To:* Kevin Gross; avt@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [AVTCORE] Mail regarding draft-ietf-avtcore-clksrc > > > > This literally makes no sense because even if I knew what clock the sende= r > was using I might not be able to access it. > > What if there is confusing information about a source? E.g. its true > identity. > > How is this any better then just adjusting to the sender's time any why.. > > After all the sender could just as well switch clocks again. > > Multiple streams are combined by a mixer and hence the mixer accounts for > the rate adjusting if required to mix each sample. > > This doesn't really help a mixer perform that function any easier for the > reasons stated and only would under situations where it was designed to. > > Receivers using legacy algorithms or profiles would still be able to do > this if required by their system when required based on better informatio= n > than conveyed as indicated in this draft. > > On Dec 15, 2014 11:25 AM, "Kevin Gross" wrote: > > > > The timestamp in SRs is NTP format but RFC 3550 does not require you to > get those time stamps from a specific clock. This RFC (7273) allows you t= o > signal what clock you're using so senders and receivers can synchronize. > Prior to RFC 7273, receivers made undisclosed assumptions about clocks or > simply adjusted empirically to whatever clocking the sender is doing. The > improvement here is to have a common clock for multiple senders so that > streams can be readily combined at a receiver that is receiving multiple > streams from different senders. > > > > Kevin Gross - AVA Networks > > > > On Mon, Dec 15, 2014 at 7:53 AM, Julius Friedman < > juliusfriedman@gmail.com> wrote: > >> > >> I'll check out that section and re-write in if necessary. > >> > >> One thing on your response I have to clarify. > >> The sr allowed this synchronization. > >> > >> The reference clock is virtually set to the time difference between th= e > ntp timestamp in the sender report and the receiver. > >> > >> That's seems synchronized to me. > >> > >> What difference does it make if his clock is wrong? Furthermore if > sender uses a clock on mars. > >> > >> Can you succinctly state why we need to know more details about clock > rate than already available 20 years later? > >> > >> How does my application benefit from this? > >> > >> Furthermore it seems dynamic clock rates are not addressed. > >> > >> Thanks for responding. > >> > >> On Dec 15, 2014 3:11 AM, "Brandenburg, R. (Ray) van" < > ray.vanbrandenburg@tno.nl> wrote: > >>> > >>> Hi Julius, > >>> > >>> Thanks for your constructive and positively-formulated feedback. > >>> > >>> I advise you to read section 2 on Applications. It will answer most o= f > your questions. > >>> > >>> Furthermore, you seem to have missed a number of aspects: > >>> > >>> - There is a difference between a media clock and a reference clock. = I > don=E2=80=99t see how any RTP profile or current SDP is going to help you= to know > which reference clock you=E2=80=99re using. Without that information, how= are you > going to synchronize two different receivers? > >>> - There is a difference between specifying a media clock rate (which > is done in an RTP profile) and specifying how that clock rate is > determined. > >>> > >>> If you have any more questions, I encourage you to voice your opinion > on the AVT mailing list. > >>> > >>> Best regards, > >>> > >>> Ray > >>> > >>> > >>> From: Julius Friedman > >>> Date: Sunday 14 December 2014 18:37 > >>> To: "draft-ietf-avtcore-clksrc@tools.ietf.org" < > draft-ietf-avtcore-clksrc@tools.ietf.org> > >>> Subject: Mail regarding draft-ietf-avtcore-clksrc > >>> Resent-To: "aidan.williams@audinate.com" , > , Kevin Gross , Ray van > Brandenburg > >>> > >>> What is the purpose of this rfc? > >>> > >>> After reading it several times I just cannot come to terms with > anything it suggests. > >>> > >>> Rfc 3550 conveys the ntp time information via rtcp et al. > >>> > >>> There is no reason to signal rate of media in sdp beyond where each > rtp profile registered has a default clock rate assigned especially when > the document provides no mechanism to align the clocks in which it declar= ed > might not be synchronized. (Even though that is the purpose of ntp... ) > >>> > >>> Here is a simple explanation. > >>> http://www.cs.columbia.edu/~hgs/rtp/faq.html#sr-timestamp > >>> > >>> Furthermore each implementation already has the clock rate as a > parameter of the rtpmap or fmtp or the profile default is used. > >>> > >>> This document makes sdp content longer and more complex without any > added benefit or explanation of the mechanism introduced. > >>> > >>> Lastly Video walls wouldn't need a specified rate to work as they > would have their own rate and update displays based on that rate. > >>> > >>> Any such required information would be an optimiZation to their > display driver through the operating system, do you really want a rtp > sender to be able to control the clock rate of your display? If you do us= e > snmp or something else. > >>> > >>> Things have worked like this for as long as rtp has been specified an= d > thus this rfc only allows information to be given which is redundant give= n > the fact a profile which would be required for playback through > depacketization anyway. > >>> > >>> This document also makes no change to any calculation used by a > receiver or sender. > >>> > >>> It is for all intents and purposes useless. > >>> > >>> Please feel free to correct me. > >>> > >>> Sincerely, > >>> Julius Friedman. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> This message may contain information that is not intended for you. If > you are not the addressee or if this message was sent to you by mistake, > you are requested to inform the sender and delete the message. TNO accept= s > no liability for the content of this e-mail, for the manner in which you > use it and for damage of any kind resulting from the risks inherent to th= e > electronic transmission of messages. > >>> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance > >> avt@ietf.org > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avt > >> > --047d7b2e0de78fbbc8050a57f198 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Unfortunately I disagree.

Rtp connected speakers dont have to be synchronized to each = other. If they did each speaker would adhere to the spec as it's own re= ciever and handle loss as indicated in the standard.=C2=A0 They could also = have their own mechanism for synchronicity as provided by the transport lay= er.

The scenario is no different than a conference where all the= participants are spread out over vast distances or routes with congestion.=

There is no reason to obtain or know the clock rate other th= an how it had already been specified because the senders report provides th= is functionality for multiple streams and single streams.

Doing so in the manner specified by this draft is not backwa= rds compatible and provides nothing to prevent the clock rate from changing= right after it has been conveyed.

There is no benefit, we didn't need this mechanism 20 ye= ars ago and we certainly dont now.

Because of those reasons as well as the others i have cited = my position is firm until a succinctly defined scenario is defined in which= prior mechanisms fail or it is shown a clear and hassle free benefit of co= mplying with this draft.

After all if I ignored it I would play data the exact same w= ay as if it was in use.

The sr would adapt receiver losses as it always has.

This might be better as some informational document and even= then I question its applicability in face of existing mechanisms which are= better defined and more reliable.

Sincerely,
Julius Richard Friedman

On Dec 16, 2014 11:02 AM, "Brandenburg, R. = (Ray) van" <ray.vanbra= ndenburg@tno.nl> wrote:

Hi Julius,<= /span>

=C2=A0

I think we= =E2=80=99re talking about two different use cases. The use you seem to have= in mind is one where the issue at hand is synchronization of two or more streams on a single device. For that purpose, you=E2=80=99re right= that it doesn=E2=80=99t matter which clock you=E2=80=99re using (as you me= ntion, it might as well be a Mars-based one).

=C2= =A0

The use ca= se that is discussed in the RFC is where you have multiple receivers and wh= ere the goal is to make sure that the streams being played out are synchronized between the various receivers. Imagine a stadium wher= e you have multiple RTP-connected speakers. In that case, it is very import= ant that the reference clock they are using is the same, or at least that y= ou know the offset between those clocks.

&= gt; This literally makes no sense because even if I= knew what clock the sender was using I might not be able to access it.<= /u>

Well, this= draft solves the former problem, knowing which clock the sender was using.= Not having access to that particular server is another problem altogether. As long as that is not the case in the overwhelming majority o= f the cases, I don=E2=80=99t think that is reason to disqualify this work.

=C2= =A0

Ray=

=

=C2= =A0

From: avt [mailto:avt-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Julius Friedman
Sent: maandag 15 december 2014 17:37
To: Kevin Gross; a= vt@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [AVTCORE] Mail regarding draft-ietf-avtcore-clksrc

=C2=A0

This literally makes no sense because even = if I knew what clock the sender was using I might not be able to access it.=

What if there is confusing information abou= t a source?=C2=A0 E.g. its true identity.

How is this any better then just adjusting = to the sender's time any why..

After all the sender could just as well swi= tch clocks again.

Multiple streams are combined by a mixer an= d hence the mixer accounts for the rate adjusting if required to mix each s= ample.

This doesn't really help a mixer perfor= m that function any easier for the reasons stated and only would under situ= ations where it was designed to.

Receivers using legacy algorithms or profiles would still be able to do thi= s if required by their system when required based on better information tha= n conveyed as indicated in this draft.=C2=A0

On Dec 15, 2014 11:25 AM, "Kevin Gross= " <kevin= .gross@avanw.com> wrote:
>
> The timestamp in SRs is NTP format but RFC 3550 does not require you t= o get those time stamps from a specific clock. This RFC (7273) allows you t= o signal what clock you're using so senders and receivers can synchroni= ze. Prior to RFC 7273, receivers made undisclosed assumptions about clocks or simply adjusted empirically to whatever clocki= ng the sender is doing. The improvement here is to have a common clock for = multiple senders so that streams can be readily combined at a receiver that= is receiving multiple streams from different senders.
>
> Kevin Gross - AVA Networks
>
> On Mon, Dec 15, 2014 at 7:53 AM, Julius Friedman <juliusfriedman@gmail.com&g= t; wrote:
>>
>> I'll check out that section and re-write in if necessary.
>>
>> One thing on your response I have to clarify.
>> The sr allowed this synchronization.
>>
>> The reference clock is virtually set to the time difference betwee= n the ntp timestamp in the sender report and the receiver.
>>
>> That's seems synchronized to me.
>>
>> What difference does it make if his clock is wrong? Furthermore if= sender uses a clock on mars.
>>
>> Can you succinctly state why we need to know more details about cl= ock rate than already available 20 years later?
>>
>> How does my application benefit from this?
>>
>> Furthermore it seems dynamic clock rates are not addressed.
>>
>> Thanks for responding.
>>
>> On Dec 15, 2014 3:11 AM, "Brandenburg, R. (Ray) van" <= ;ray.vanbran= denburg@tno.nl> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Julius,
>>>
>>> Thanks for your constructive and positively-formulated feedbac= k.=C2=A0
>>>
>>> I advise you to read section 2 on Applications. It will answer= most of your questions.=C2=A0
>>>
>>> Furthermore, you seem to have missed a number of aspects:
>>>
>>> - There is a difference between a media clock and a reference = clock. I don=E2=80=99t see how any RTP profile or current SDP is going to h= elp you to know which reference clock you=E2=80=99re using. Without that in= formation, how are you going to synchronize two different receivers?=C2=A0
>>> - There is a difference between specifying a media clock rate = (which is done in an RTP profile) and specifying how that clock rate is det= ermined.=C2=A0
>>>
>>> If you have any more questions, I encourage you to voice your = opinion on the AVT mailing list.
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>>
>>> Ray
>>>
>>>
>>> From: Julius Friedman <juliusfriedman@gmail.com>
>>> Date: Sunday 14 December 2014 18:37
>>> To: "draft-ietf-avtcore-clksrc@tools.ietf.org"= ; <draft-ietf-avtcore-clksrc@tools.ietf.org>
>>> Subject: Mail regarding draft-ietf-avtcore-clksrc
>>> Resent-To: "aidan.williams@audinate.com" <aidan.williams@audinate= .com>, <hans.stokking@tno.nl>, Kevin Gross <kevin.gross@avanw.com>, Ray van Brandenburg <ray.vanbrandenburg@tno.nl>
>>>
>>> What is the purpose of this rfc?
>>>
>>> After reading it several times I just cannot come to terms wit= h anything it suggests.
>>>
>>> Rfc 3550 conveys the ntp time information via rtcp et al.
>>>
>>> There is no reason to signal rate of media in sdp beyond where= each rtp profile registered has a default clock rate assigned especially w= hen the document provides no mechanism to align the clocks in which it decl= ared might not be synchronized. (Even though that is the purpose of ntp... )
>>>
>>> Here is a simple explanation.
>>> http://www.cs.columbia.edu/~hgs/rtp/faq.html#sr-t= imestamp
>>>
>>> Furthermore each implementation already has the clock rate as = a parameter of the rtpmap or fmtp or the profile default is used.
>>>
>>> This document makes sdp content longer and more complex withou= t any added benefit or explanation of the mechanism introduced.
>>>
>>> Lastly Video walls wouldn't need a specified rate to work = as they would have their own rate and update displays based on that rate. >>>
>>> Any such required information would be an optimiZation to thei= r display driver through the operating system, do you really want a rtp sen= der to be able to control the clock rate of your display? If you do use snm= p or something else.
>>>
>>> Things have worked like this for as long as rtp has been speci= fied and thus this rfc only allows information to be given which is redunda= nt given the fact a profile which would be required for playback through de= packetization anyway.
>>>
>>> This document also makes no change to any calculation used by = a receiver or sender.
>>>
>>> It is for all intents and purposes useless.
>>>
>>> Please feel free to correct me.
>>>
>>> Sincerely,
>>> Julius Friedman.
>>>
>>> =C2=A0
>>>
>>> This message may contain information that is not intended for = you. If you are not the addressee or if this message was sent to you by mis= take, you are requested to inform the sender and delete the message. TNO ac= cepts no liability for the content of this e-mail, for the manner in which you use it and for damage of any kind resu= lting from the risks inherent to the electronic transmission of messages. >>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance
>> avt@ietf.org=
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avt
>>

--047d7b2e0de78fbbc8050a57f198-- From nobody Wed Dec 17 05:35:21 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B21861A897C for ; Wed, 17 Dec 2014 05:35:20 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id F_FqI5csX7Vd for ; Wed, 17 Dec 2014 05:35:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pa0-x22c.google.com (mail-pa0-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c03::22c]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0135E1A1B0D for ; Wed, 17 Dec 2014 05:35:18 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pa0-f44.google.com with SMTP id et14so16401757pad.17 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 2014 05:35:17 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=MpWBZMoW/d/AjPE9qzTctHpFsg6qZX6AvtDF555W3vc=; b=UPEZO/6Q2rH2IDXIEv30nq0ZHGJSDkTnOefu8kEzqmHIsLrDBP3K4QSKEuobSRxL2E Dm/lFbGqcAuWMmJMaJ4lVPl2b6Qg2ki+hIWv2n4bv2Q2ooZCULFEIEjLATKoHqW8Nhzm MjR9cuuk7tT2V167AaiRur34A7RroQLO/hcdU4NfGJ/786SJyQjmZ5pcZAmPhK7ycHQF jBCyBHGeJ9d6cEwEJwHHeCHQ9YHvRT306ooM/EHGaTe3VUyMZLBqMITuS+QgilA25S0c Lxb7qIVwDhjT38soSmRr19uqhk2tbTk9+7JT9LidIZzP0re+Qc1L2Wp67SV+kfj3FOsq +Gqw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.70.22.227 with SMTP id h3mr70812638pdf.160.1418823317115; Wed, 17 Dec 2014 05:35:17 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.70.117.99 with HTTP; Wed, 17 Dec 2014 05:35:17 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.70.117.99 with HTTP; Wed, 17 Dec 2014 05:35:17 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <3572_1418810212_54915364_3572_14092_1_719DF432C01EA6418EBA5185063A1661140A9765@PEXCVZYM12.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> References: <3572_1418810212_54915364_3572_14092_1_719DF432C01EA6418EBA5185063A1661140A9765@PEXCVZYM12.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2014 08:35:17 -0500 Message-ID: From: Julius Friedman To: aurelien.sollaud@orange.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b6da18ad0da7b050a698bd2 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/avt/IyH7hkSBxkHMUgIEgzmT-_7-WLU Cc: avt@ietf.org Subject: Re: [AVTCORE] Mail regarding draft-ietf-avt-app-rtp-keepalive (rfc6263) X-BeenThere: avt@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2014 13:35:20 -0000 --047d7b6da18ad0da7b050a698bd2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ExactLy, so then why is this required? Comfort noise is defined. And why couldn't I send a header only packet with the previous sent header data? What about counting that packet in reports? There is already a spec for feedback could we not have just enforced that with use of a unsolicited nack of the last frame. My issues are still the same with this draft/rfc and im close to filling errata for the reasons given. Can we please address them? Sincerely, Julius On Dec 17, 2014 4:56 AM, wrote: > Hello > > > Please indicate why this is necessary if I am multiplexing and rtcp is > enabled. My nat will not timeout. > > Exactly. There is no trick here, the only RECOMMENDED method in the RFC > 6263 is RTP-RTCP multiplexing, where regular RTCP traffic will maintain t= he > NAT binding alive. > > Aurelien > > De : Julius Friedman [mailto:juliusfriedman@gmail.com] > Envoy=C3=A9 : lundi 15 d=C3=A9cembre 2014 17:03 > =C3=80 : SOLLAUD Aur=C3=A9lien IMT/OLN > Cc : avt@ietf.org > Objet : RE: Mail regarding draft-ietf-avt-app-rtp-keepalive (rfc6263) > > Thanks for the update. I see ice is excluded but if stun etc was also > excluded then it should be indicated in the same place. > Please indicate why this is necessary if I am multiplexing and rtcp is > enabled. My nat will not timeout. > If I am a translator version 0 will not be ignored. > Senders octet count will be wrong unless the packet is skipped. > All of my previous points still apply and sending a header only repeated > would be more complaint no matter the case of use. > I will follow errata if I need to but first the points need addressing. > Thanks. > On Dec 15, 2014 10:54 AM, wrote: > > > > Hello > > > > > > > > I don=E2=80=99t know what version of the draft you are referring to, bu= t this > document was published as RFC 6263 in June 2011. So you may check this > final release. > > > > > > > > In particular the Introduction section states that ICE and STUN are out > of scope. > > > > > > > > Aurelien > > > > > > > > De : Julius Friedman [mailto:juliusfriedman@gmail.com] > > Envoy=C3=A9 : lundi 15 d=C3=A9cembre 2014 16:37 > > =C3=80 : draft-ietf-avt-app-rtp-keepalive@tools.ietf.org > > Objet : Mail regarding draft-ietf-avt-app-rtp-keepalive > > > > > > > > Hello guys, > > > > Based on the fact this draft cites keep alive are not recommended I > would to chime in. > > > > I would also like to indicate this process causes detected loss in the > sender report unless the keep alive packet is not counted. > > > > Since rtcp is enabled what is timing out? The port mapping for the rtp > port? What if im multiplexing on the same port then how does this matter? > > > > Specifically for non multiplexing why wouldn't ice or stun have their > own methods of keeping the port mapping alive? And why should a rtp clien= t > have to handle this? > > > > This seems like a ice or stun change more than rtp. > > > > Furthermore couldn't you just send a header only packet with the last > sequence number etc which should also be Ignored and in a more complaint > way. > > > > Translators may not ignore version 0 packets or dynamic payload types > undefined in the sdp. > > > > Sincerely, > > Julius Richard Friedman > > > > > _________________________________________________________________________= ________________________________________________ > > > > Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations > confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc > > pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez > recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler > > a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les message= s > electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, > > Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme > ou falsifie. Merci. > > > > This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged > information that may be protected by law; > > they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation. > > If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and > delete this message and its attachments. > > As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have > been modified, changed or falsified. > > Thank you. > > > _________________________________________________________________________= ________________________________________________ > > Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations > confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc > pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez > recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler > a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages > electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, > Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme o= u > falsifie. Merci. > > This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged > information that may be protected by law; > they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation. > If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and > delete this message and its attachments. > As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have bee= n > modified, changed or falsified. > Thank you. > > --047d7b6da18ad0da7b050a698bd2 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

ExactLy,=C2=A0 so then why is this required?

Comfort noise is defined.

And why couldn't I send a header only packet with the pr= evious sent header data?

What about counting that packet in reports?

There is already a spec for feedback could we not have just = enforced that with use of a unsolicited nack of the last frame.

My issues are still the same with this draft/rfc and im clos= e to filling errata for the reasons given.

Can we please address them?

Sincerely,
Julius

On Dec 17, 2014 4:56 AM, <aurelien.sollaud@orange.com> wrote:
Hello

> Please indicate why this is necessary if I am multiplexing and rtcp is= enabled.=C2=A0 My nat will not timeout.

Exactly. There is no trick here, the only RECOMMENDED method in the RFC 626= 3 is RTP-RTCP multiplexing, where regular RTCP traffic will maintain the NA= T binding alive.

Aurelien

De=C2=A0: Julius Friedman [mailto:juliusfriedman@gmail.com]
Envoy=C3=A9=C2=A0: lundi 15 d=C3=A9cembre 2014 17:03
=C3=80=C2=A0: SOLLAUD Aur=C3=A9lien IMT/OLN
Cc=C2=A0: avt@ietf.org
Objet=C2=A0: RE: Mail regarding draft-ietf-avt-app-rtp-keepalive (rfc6263)<= br>
Thanks for the update.=C2=A0 I see ice is excluded but if stun etc was also= excluded then it should be indicated in the same place.
Please indicate why this is necessary if I am multiplexing and rtcp is enab= led.=C2=A0 My nat will not timeout.
If I am a translator version 0 will not be ignored.
Senders octet count will be wrong unless the packet is skipped.
All of my previous points still apply and sending a header only repeated wo= uld be more complaint no matter the case of use.
I will follow errata if I need to but first the points need addressing.
Thanks.
On Dec 15, 2014 10:54 AM, <aurelien.sollaud@orange.com> wrote:
>
> Hello
>
> =C2=A0
>
> I don=E2=80=99t know what version of the draft you are referring to, b= ut this document was published as RFC 6263 in June 2011. So you may check t= his final release.
>
> =C2=A0
>
> In particular the Introduction section states that ICE and STUN are ou= t of scope.
>
> =C2=A0
>
> Aurelien
>
> =C2=A0
>
> De=C2=A0: Julius Friedman [mailto:juliusfriedman@gmail.com]
> Envoy=C3=A9=C2=A0: lundi 15 d=C3=A9cembre 2014 16:37
> =C3=80=C2=A0: draft-ietf-avt-app-rtp-keepalive@tools.ietf.org
> Objet=C2=A0: Mail regarding draft-ietf-avt-app-rtp-keepalive
>
> =C2=A0
>
> Hello guys,
>
> Based on the fact this draft cites keep alive are not recommended I wo= uld to chime in.
>
> I would also like to indicate this process causes detected loss in the= sender report unless the keep alive packet is not counted.
>
> Since rtcp is enabled what is timing out? The port mapping for the rtp= port? What if im multiplexing on the same port then how does this matter?<= br> >
> Specifically for non multiplexing why wouldn't ice or stun have th= eir own methods of keeping the port mapping alive? And why should a rtp cli= ent have to handle this?
>
> This seems like a ice or stun change more than rtp.
>
> Furthermore couldn't you just send a header only packet with the l= ast sequence number etc=C2=A0 which should also be Ignored and in a more co= mplaint way.
>
> Translators may not ignore version 0 packets or dynamic payload types = undefined in the sdp.
>
> Sincerely,
> Julius Richard Friedman
>
> ______________________________________________________________________= ___________________________________________________
>
> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations con= fidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
> pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez= recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
> a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les me= ssages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
> Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deform= e ou falsifie. Merci.
>
> This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privilege= d information that may be protected by law;
> they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.<= br> > If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and= delete this message and its attachments.
> As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have = been modified, changed or falsified.
> Thank you.

___________________________________________________________________________= ______________________________________________

Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden= tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu= ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les message= s electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou = falsifie. Merci.

This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf= ormation that may be protected by law;
they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele= te this message and its attachments.
As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been = modified, changed or falsified.
Thank you.

--047d7b6da18ad0da7b050a698bd2-- From nobody Wed Dec 17 05:52:02 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 583CA1A1AF1 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 2014 05:52:00 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.115 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.115 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_NL=0.55, HOST_EQ_NL=1.545, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xBJmnmkf8TnW for ; Wed, 17 Dec 2014 05:51:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from fromintoutb.tno.nl (fromintoutb.tno.nl [134.221.1.27]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BE7F1A1A86 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 2014 05:51:52 -0800 (PST) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.07,594,1413237600"; d="scan'208,217";a="5838330" Received: from exc-cashub03.tsn.tno.nl (HELO mail.tno.nl) ([134.221.225.222]) by mailhost1b.tno.nl with ESMTP; 17 Dec 2014 14:51:52 +0100 Received: from EXC-MBX03.tsn.tno.nl ([fe80::e969:1300:fb9f:7e12]) by EXC-CASHUB03.tsn.tno.nl ([fe80::6d39:f277:173e:a926%13]) with mapi id 14.03.0195.001; Wed, 17 Dec 2014 14:51:51 +0100 From: "Brandenburg, R. (Ray) van" To: Julius Friedman Thread-Topic: [AVTCORE] Mail regarding draft-ietf-avtcore-clksrc Thread-Index: AQHQF8TJg3PO8B/2Tk6LIZauOQ/jB5yQTgQAgABfWICAABlXgIAAA44AgAGVR0D///yzAIABIzPAgAA7VoCAABboAA== Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2014 13:51:50 +0000 Message-ID: <27CF275E-2456-4D18-BB25-75E147411214@tno.nl> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US, nl-NL Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/15.3.0.141024 x-originating-ip: [134.221.225.153] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_27CF275E24564D18BB2575E147411214tnonl_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/avt/5J8Y2QQAZDAmUwlu-YfqexIDXSo Cc: "avt@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [AVTCORE] Mail regarding draft-ietf-avtcore-clksrc X-BeenThere: avt@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Dec 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aXNzaW9uIG9mIG1lc3NhZ2VzLjxicj48YnI+PC9zcGFuPjwvZm9udD48L3A+PC9ib2R5Pg0KPC9o dG1sPg0K --_000_27CF275E24564D18BB2575E147411214tnonl_-- From nobody Wed Dec 17 06:04:27 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D126B1A8A89 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 2014 06:04:24 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.978 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.978 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kL9TC7mozRpS for ; Wed, 17 Dec 2014 06:04:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-la0-f44.google.com (mail-la0-f44.google.com [209.85.215.44]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9F5991A1BDC for ; Wed, 17 Dec 2014 06:04:22 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-la0-f44.google.com with SMTP id gd6so13338009lab.17 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 2014 06:04:20 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=ApEx3rXcdBDkkVZgbDA/K8BU9MslmZo10IrgVufEWEg=; b=USRfWtVo0IWP2qcFVzk08vqa1ptmI2+1nEOJ/Sj1xTZd7dM+m0dcp1KqrL3gkxw4sS 5nKXU769L09RMO9TAsfMOymYaDINsF3/lfmMql2iBe+sO80Jr0Jh27clV1QIKhlUPhK0 vvSI0VxldZCUrJht1vKeFCNEZ2+C1S99JQqlLVpqmKX0rf25YftQdHqiCpVd0fTA1fIR WJV8SEJWXqJPWmx6jBRTcC0ir1QpXFkOhhPgWM6E4uRTq2kkEzvmbFDibX6rKQHd8Gof 51gFx/sgYUOKtEx30TtqVos7wpXivYnn2ZHj0L3cktwCptDCymKoiahNj9qGBd25CUbQ MmFg== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQkl4Yk+0WUgvQEtOhwgbJWNH5a2i7F4TwMt3uy3gNAu5x3510+n8U5rN26gIy6qE8Do3ITM MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.112.168.164 with SMTP id zx4mr33120294lbb.28.1418825060648; Wed, 17 Dec 2014 06:04:20 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.25.84.145 with HTTP; Wed, 17 Dec 2014 06:04:20 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <27CF275E-2456-4D18-BB25-75E147411214@tno.nl> References: <27CF275E-2456-4D18-BB25-75E147411214@tno.nl> Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2014 09:04:20 -0500 Message-ID: From: Simon Perreault To: "Brandenburg, R. (Ray) van" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c23564bd21bc050a69f362 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/avt/7bXMMrwK6mt-u15Y9RsNNdogKx4 Cc: Julius Friedman , "avt@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [AVTCORE] Mail regarding draft-ietf-avtcore-clksrc X-BeenThere: avt@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2014 14:04:25 -0000 --001a11c23564bd21bc050a69f362 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Wed, Dec 17, 2014 at 8:51 AM, Brandenburg, R. (Ray) van < ray.vanbrandenburg@tno.nl> wrote: > > until you can articulate a succinctly defined scenario which also handles > the issues I cite then I will file errata Until now I never thought that errata could be wielded as a weapon... "Clear that DISCUSS or I will file errata!" :D Simon --001a11c23564bd21bc050a69f362 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

= On Wed, Dec 17, 2014 at 8:51 AM, Brandenburg, R. (Ray) van <ray.va= nbrandenburg@tno.nl> wrote:
unt= il you can articulate a succinctly defined scenario which also handles the = issues I cite then I will file errata

Until now I never though= t that errata could be wielded as a weapon...

"Clear that DISCUSS or I will = file errata!" :D

Simon
--001a11c23564bd21bc050a69f362-- From nobody Wed Dec 17 06:10:29 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D32FB1A1AF1 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 2014 06:10:26 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NzHazAX4MCxd for ; Wed, 17 Dec 2014 06:10:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pd0-x22e.google.com (mail-pd0-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c02::22e]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 020451A1AA4 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 2014 06:10:22 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pd0-f174.google.com with SMTP id fp1so16107438pdb.5 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 2014 06:10:21 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=QVNfCMnNmsLXOaLX3Q4mm7fVmsEt8cP/a4gDLV0I1M4=; b=wtZODz1YivpPO2nGL7hZCyr7vJXXLsu5zPsS+ufBiTCYHvh8dcNVeFT1bFPavzAq5j aZ/7IlUjOM2c8prLQ+AhUR2RZ12Fs40QHAho9VmPZDNB6b8M8p2McdL4wUa0icCvie26 T93td6BPnFH5wjLJ44emoJ/YF4HWbdn2SjYVJ/vZpVPMlF1p5fWJCvAQ0V5XjX71a/5T BPIS7oxT6FOCw4wTJcSdl03xpQeNHxMANimRJrvecxXqkFVS6PFi6IqhEvQ+MX/A84lE xtfkNLoAYjd9YkC7Nhq8fwkrSCkYtO9DR40btlwfKMH0hm6QZci5sQxpaLTluCznr2TB hLUg== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.66.139.132 with SMTP id qy4mr6337258pab.113.1418825421223; Wed, 17 Dec 2014 06:10:21 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.70.117.99 with HTTP; Wed, 17 Dec 2014 06:10:21 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.70.117.99 with HTTP; Wed, 17 Dec 2014 06:10:21 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <27CF275E-2456-4D18-BB25-75E147411214@tno.nl> References: <27CF275E-2456-4D18-BB25-75E147411214@tno.nl> Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2014 09:10:21 -0500 Message-ID: From: Julius Friedman To: "R. (Ray) van Brandenburg" , avt@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b5dbb983b0032050a6a095b Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/avt/p7PIbyxRuKUPDDempnjL5cR0fkw Subject: Re: [AVTCORE] Mail regarding draft-ietf-avtcore-clksrc X-BeenThere: avt@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2014 14:10:27 -0000 --047d7b5dbb983b0032050a6a095b Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ntp synchronized receivers. This mechanism is additional and allows for more error for the reasons I already stated. You can synchronize with rtcp alone. Additionally if my speakers are not ip compatible then your notion and reference makes little sense. There is no reason for a new sdp line and new semantics for clocks without properly defining the scenarios i have outlined and their resulting effects on existing systems. Hence my position is unchanged. On Dec 17, 2014 8:51 AM, "Brandenburg, R. (Ray) van" < ray.vanbrandenburg@tno.nl> wrote: > Hi Julius, > > >Disagree all you like, until you can articulate a succinctly defined > scenario which also handles the issues I cite then I will file errata for > them and will not comply with them until such time. > > The decision whether to comply or implement this RFC is completely up to > you. Nobody is forcing you to implement something you don=E2=80=99t think= is > necessary. Implementing any RFC is optional, including this one. If you > don=E2=80=99t agree with the use case or solution provided, no problem, d= on=E2=80=99t > implement it > > >The latter scenario is made up > > No, it=E2=80=99s not. As an example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AES67.= This is > an A/V Networking specification that is implemented and used by a number > of companies, as announced in various public press releases. The clock > source RFC that we=E2=80=99re discussing here is a normative reference in= that > specification. Another example is RFC7272, which present a solution for > synchronising playback on different receivers. > > Ray > > > > From: Julius Friedman > Date: Wednesday 17 December 2014 14:29 > To: Ray van Brandenburg > Subject: RE: [AVTCORE] Mail regarding draft-ietf-avtcore-clksrc > > Ray / AVT > > On Dec 17, 2014 4:10 AM, "Brandenburg, R. (Ray) van" < > ray.vanbrandenburg@tno.nl> wrote: > > > > Hi Julius, > > > > Unfortunately I disagree. > > > > Rtp connected speakers dont have to be synchronized to each other. If > they did each speaker would adhere to the spec as it's own reciever and > handle loss as indicated in the standard. They could also have their own > mechanism for synchronicity as provided by the transport layer. > > > > This is not about loss. This is not about the transport layer. This is > about making sure that if I have a room in which I have multiple > RTP-connected speakers, they all play out the audio or video at exactly t= he > same time. How would the transport layer help with that? > > Ntp helps with this. Each speaker would recieve data from a mixer and > would play out. > > How will knowing the clock rate of the media prevent a unit from > malfunction? > > What if someone spilled something? Or there was interference? > > What is knowing the clock rate going to do for you then? > > Lastly how come that scenario isnt made use of in the draft and instead w= e > have examples with video walls and iptv systems which have their own > mechanism for clocks. > > > > > The scenario is no different than a conference where all the > participants are spread out over vast distances or routes with congestion= . > > > > No, it=E2=80=99s not. There is a difference between a scenario where th= e primary > goal is low-delay (conference systems) and a scenario where the primary > goal is high quality and synchronicity, in which adding a few seconds of > delay to make sure everything is synchronized is acceptable. You seem to = be > focused on the former, without considering the latter scenario. > > > > The latter scenario is made up, and if I didn't consider it I wouldn't > feel so strongly about it. > > Just because your proprietary system benefits from this doesn't mean mine > will nor that I will want to take measures to comply with something which > raises several concerns which are not addressed. > > > There is no reason to obtain or know the clock rate other than how it > had already been specified because the senders report provides this > functionality for multiple streams and single streams. > > > > No, it doesn=E2=80=99t. The SR doesn=E2=80=99t specify a reference cloc= k, not its > source. All it does is specify at what time a specific sample was sent. > > > > The ntp tells you a reference clock of the sender and also tells you that > the rtptimestamp belongs to that time. > > How are you calculating jitter and transit? > > Wont those still be applied? > > > Doing so in the manner specified by this draft is not backwards > compatible and provides nothing to prevent the clock rate from changing > right after it has been conveyed. > > > > The clock source which may not be accessible, correct or ever change > reference or rate? > > > That is =C2=AD_exactly_ the reason why we don=E2=80=99t convey the cloc= k rate but > communicate the clock source. And I don=E2=80=99t see how making use of t= his RFC > has any impact on backwards compatibility. > > > > Its easy, if I didn't need to look for or account for the source now and > now I need to this is not compatible. > > Also since you don't specifically define how changes are handled in the > clock among other issues i brought up. > > > There is no benefit, we didn't need this mechanism 20 years ago and we > certainly dont now. > > > > Thanks for sharing your opinion. I disagree. > > > > The facts are still the facts. > > I have worked with several types of video walls and iptv systems. > > In no aspect did a source clock ever come up or present itself as an > issue. > > I would have loved to hear how this solves an issue in real life rather > then made up scenarios. > > I could also argue that each speaker could have it's own dynamic content > and due to handicap or special content not require the same play out as > other speakers. > > Disagree all you like, until you can articulate a succinctly defined > scenario which also handles the issues I cite then I will file errata for > them and will not comply with them until such time. > > Sincerely, > Julius Richard Friedman > > > Ray > > > > Because of those reasons as well as the others i have cited my position > is firm until a succinctly defined scenario is defined in which prior > mechanisms fail or it is shown a clear and hassle free benefit of complyi= ng > with this draft. > > > > After all if I ignored it I would play data the exact same way as if it > was in use. > > > > The sr would adapt receiver losses as it always has. > > > > This might be better as some informational document and even then I > question its applicability in face of existing mechanisms which are bette= r > defined and more reliable. > > > > Sincerely, > > Julius Richard Friedman > > > > On Dec 16, 2014 11:02 AM, "Brandenburg, R. (Ray) van" < > ray.vanbrandenburg@tno.nl> wrote: > > > > Hi Julius, > > > > > > > > I think we=E2=80=99re talking about two different use cases. The use yo= u seem to > have in mind is one where the issue at hand is synchronization of two or > more streams on a single device. For that purpose, you=E2=80=99re right t= hat it > doesn=E2=80=99t matter which clock you=E2=80=99re using (as you mention, = it might as well > be a Mars-based one). > > > > > > > > The use case that is discussed in the RFC is where you have multiple > receivers and where the goal is to make sure that the streams being playe= d > out are synchronized between the various receivers. Imagine a stadium whe= re > you have multiple RTP-connected speakers. In that case, it is very > important that the reference clock they are using is the same, or at leas= t > that you know the offset between those clocks. > > > > > This literally makes no sense because even if I knew what clock the > sender was using I might not be able to access it. > > > > Well, this draft solves the former problem, knowing which clock the > sender was using. Not having access to that particular server is another > problem altogether. As long as that is not the case in the overwhelming > majority of the cases, I don=E2=80=99t think that is reason to disqualify= this work. > > > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > From: avt [mailto:avt-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Julius Friedman > > Sent: maandag 15 december 2014 17:37 > > To: Kevin Gross; avt@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [AVTCORE] Mail regarding draft-ietf-avtcore-clksrc > > > > > > > > This literally makes no sense because even if I knew what clock the > sender was using I might not be able to access it. > > > > What if there is confusing information about a source? E.g. its true > identity. > > > > How is this any better then just adjusting to the sender's time any why= .. > > > > After all the sender could just as well switch clocks again. > > > > Multiple streams are combined by a mixer and hence the mixer accounts > for the rate adjusting if required to mix each sample. > > > > This doesn't really help a mixer perform that function any easier for > the reasons stated and only would under situations where it was designed = to. > > > > Receivers using legacy algorithms or profiles would still be able to do > this if required by their system when required based on better informatio= n > than conveyed as indicated in this draft. > > > > On Dec 15, 2014 11:25 AM, "Kevin Gross" wrote: > > > > > > The timestamp in SRs is NTP format but RFC 3550 does not require you > to get those time stamps from a specific clock. This RFC (7273) allows yo= u > to signal what clock you're using so senders and receivers can synchroniz= e. > Prior to RFC 7273, receivers made undisclosed assumptions about clocks or > simply adjusted empirically to whatever clocking the sender is doing. The > improvement here is to have a common clock for multiple senders so that > streams can be readily combined at a receiver that is receiving multiple > streams from different senders. > > > > > > Kevin Gross - AVA Networks > > > > > > On Mon, Dec 15, 2014 at 7:53 AM, Julius Friedman < > juliusfriedman@gmail.com> wrote: > > >> > > >> I'll check out that section and re-write in if necessary. > > >> > > >> One thing on your response I have to clarify. > > >> The sr allowed this synchronization. > > >> > > >> The reference clock is virtually set to the time difference between > the ntp timestamp in the sender report and the receiver. > > >> > > >> That's seems synchronized to me. > > >> > > >> What difference does it make if his clock is wrong? Furthermore if > sender uses a clock on mars. > > >> > > >> Can you succinctly state why we need to know more details about cloc= k > rate than already available 20 years later? > > >> > > >> How does my application benefit from this? > > >> > > >> Furthermore it seems dynamic clock rates are not addressed. > > >> > > >> Thanks for responding. > > >> > > >> On Dec 15, 2014 3:11 AM, "Brandenburg, R. (Ray) van" < > ray.vanbrandenburg@tno.nl> wrote: > > >>> > > >>> Hi Julius, > > >>> > > >>> Thanks for your constructive and positively-formulated feedback. > > >>> > > >>> I advise you to read section 2 on Applications. It will answer most > of your questions. > > >>> > > >>> Furthermore, you seem to have missed a number of aspects: > > >>> > > >>> - There is a difference between a media clock and a reference clock= . > I don=E2=80=99t see how any RTP profile or current SDP is going to help y= ou to know > which reference clock you=E2=80=99re using. Without that information, how= are you > going to synchronize two different receivers? > > >>> - There is a difference between specifying a media clock rate (whic= h > is done in an RTP profile) and specifying how that clock rate is > determined. > > >>> > > >>> If you have any more questions, I encourage you to voice your > opinion on the AVT mailing list. > > >>> > > >>> Best regards, > > >>> > > >>> Ray > > > > This message may contain information that is not intended for you. If you > are not the addressee or if this message was sent to you by mistake, you > are requested to inform the sender and delete the message. TNO accepts no > liability for the content of this e-mail, for the manner in which you use > it and for damage of any kind resulting from the risks inherent to the > electronic transmission of messages. > > --047d7b5dbb983b0032050a6a095b Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Ntp synchronized receivers.

This mechanism is additional and allows for more error for t= he reasons I already stated.

You can synchronize with rtcp alone.

Additionally if my speakers are not ip compatible then your = notion and reference makes little sense.

There is no reason for a new sdp line and new semantics for = clocks without properly defining the scenarios i have outlined and their re= sulting effects on existing systems.

Hence my position is unchanged.

On Dec 17, 2014 8:51 AM, "Brandenburg, R. (= Ray) van" <ray.vanbran= denburg@tno.nl> wrote:
Hi Julius,

>Disagree all you like, until you can articulate a succinctly defin= ed scenario which also handles the issues I cite then I will file errata fo= r them and will not comply with them until such time.

The decision whether to comply or implement this RFC is completely up = to you. Nobody is forcing you to implement something you don=E2=80=99t thin= k is necessary. Implementing any RFC is optional, including this one. If yo= u don=E2=80=99t agree with the use case or solution provided, no problem, don=E2=80=99t implement it

>The latter scenario is made up

No, it=E2=80=99s not. As an example:=C2=A0http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AES67= . This is an A/V Networking =C2=A0specification that is implemented and use= d by a number of companies, as announced in various public press releases. The clock source RFC that we=E2=80=99re discussing here is a normative ref= erence in that specification. Another example is RFC7272, which present a s= olution for synchronising playback on different receivers.=C2=A0

Ray



From: Julius Friedman <juliusfriedman@gmail= .com>
Date: Wednesday 17 December 2014 14= :29
To: Ray van Brandenburg <ray.vanbrandenburg@= tno.nl>
Subject: RE: [AVTCORE] Mail regardi= ng draft-ietf-avtcore-clksrc

Ray / AVT

On Dec 17, 2014 4:10 AM, "Brandenburg, R. (Ray) van&quo= t; <ray.v= anbrandenburg@tno.nl> wrote:
>
> Hi Julius,
>
> Unfortunately I disagree.
>
> Rtp connected speakers dont have to be synchronized to each other. If = they did each speaker would adhere to the spec as it's own reciever and= handle loss as indicated in the standard.=C2=A0 They could also have their= own mechanism for synchronicity as provided by the transport layer.
>
> This is not about loss. This is not about the transport layer. This is= about making sure that if I have a room in which I have multiple RTP-conne= cted speakers, they all play out the audio or video at exactly the same tim= e. How would the transport layer help with that?

Ntp helps with this.=C2=A0 Each speaker would recieve data f= rom a mixer and would play out.

How will knowing the clock rate of the media prevent a unit = from malfunction?

What if someone spilled something?=C2=A0 Or there was interf= erence?

What is knowing the clock rate going to do for you then?

Lastly how come that scenario isnt made use of in the draft = and instead we have examples with video walls and iptv systems which have t= heir own mechanism for clocks.

>
> The scenario is no different than a conference where all the participa= nts are spread out over vast distances or routes with congestion.
>
> No, it=E2=80=99s not. There is a difference between a scenario where t= he primary goal is low-delay (conference systems) and a scenario where the = primary goal is high quality and synchronicity, in which adding a few secon= ds of delay to make sure everything is synchronized is acceptable. You seem to be focused on the former, without considering t= he latter scenario.
>

The latter scenario is made up, and if I didn't consider= it I wouldn't feel so strongly about it.

Just because your proprietary system benefits from this does= n't mean mine will nor that I will want to take measures to comply with= something which raises several concerns which are not addressed.

> There is no reason to obtain or know the clock rate oth= er than how it had already been specified because the senders report provid= es this functionality for multiple streams and single streams.
>
> No, it doesn=E2=80=99t. The SR doesn=E2=80=99t specify a reference clo= ck, not its source. All it does =C2=A0is specify at what time a specific sa= mple was sent.
>

The ntp tells you a reference clock of the sender and also t= ells you that the rtptimestamp belongs to that time.

How are you calculating jitter and transit?

Wont those still be applied?

> Doing so in the manner specified by this draft is not b= ackwards compatible and provides nothing to prevent the clock rate from cha= nging right after it has been conveyed.
>

The clock source which may not be accessible,=C2=A0 correct = or ever change reference or rate?

> That is =C2=AD_exactly_ the reason why we don=E2=80=99t= convey the clock rate but communicate the clock source. And I don=E2=80=99= t see how making use of this RFC has any impact on backwards compatibility.=
>

Its easy,=C2=A0 if I didn't need to look for or account = for the source now and now I need to this is not compatible.

Also since you don't specifically define how changes are= handled in the clock among other issues i brought up.

> There is no benefit, we didn't need this mechanism = 20 years ago and we certainly dont now.
>
> Thanks for sharing your opinion. I disagree.
>

The facts are still the facts.

I have worked with several types of video walls and iptv sys= tems.

In no aspect did a source clock ever come up or present itse= lf as an issue.

I would have loved to hear how this solves an issue in real = life rather then made up scenarios.

I could also argue that each speaker could have it's own= dynamic content and due to handicap or special content not require the sam= e play out as other speakers.

Disagree all you like, until you can articulate a succinctly= defined scenario which also handles the issues I cite then I will file err= ata for them and will not comply with them until such time.

Sincerely,
Julius Richard Friedman

> Ray
>
> Because of those reasons as well as the others i have cited my positio= n is firm until a succinctly defined scenario is defined in which prior mec= hanisms fail or it is shown a clear and hassle free benefit of complying wi= th this draft.
>
> After all if I ignored it I would play data the exact same way as if i= t was in use.
>
> The sr would adapt receiver losses as it always has.
>
> This might be better as some informational document and even then I qu= estion its applicability in face of existing mechanisms which are better de= fined and more reliable.
>
> Sincerely,
> Julius Richard Friedman
>
> On Dec 16, 2014 11:02 AM, "Brandenburg, R. (Ray) van" <ray.vanbranden= burg@tno.nl> wrote:
>
> Hi Julius,
>
> =C2=A0
>
> I think we=E2=80=99re talking about two different use cases. The use y= ou seem to have in mind is one where the issue at hand is synchronization o= f two or more streams on a single device. For that purpose, you=E2=80=99re = right that it doesn=E2=80=99t matter which clock you=E2=80=99re using (as you mention, it might as well be a Mars-based one).
>
> =C2=A0
>
> The use case that is discussed in the RFC is where you have multiple r= eceivers and where the goal is to make sure that the streams being played o= ut are synchronized between the various receivers. Imagine a stadium where = you have multiple RTP-connected speakers. In that case, it is very important that the reference clock they are using= is the same, or at least that you know the offset between those clocks. >
> > This literally makes no sense because even if I knew what clock t= he sender was using I might not be able to access it.
>
> Well, this draft solves the former problem, knowing which clock the se= nder was using. Not having access to that particular server is another prob= lem altogether. As long as that is not the case in the overwhelming majorit= y of the cases, I don=E2=80=99t think that is reason to disqualify this work.
>
> =C2=A0
>
> Ray
>
> =C2=A0
>
> From: avt [mailto:avt-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Julius Friedman
> Sent: maandag 15 december 2014 17:37
> To: Kevin Gross; avt= @ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [AVTCORE] Mail regarding draft-ietf-avtcore-clksrc
>
> =C2=A0
>
> This literally makes no sense because even if I knew what clock the se= nder was using I might not be able to access it.
>
> What if there is confusing information about a source?=C2=A0 E.g. its = true identity.
>
> How is this any better then just adjusting to the sender's time an= y why..
>
> After all the sender could just as well switch clocks again.
>
> Multiple streams are combined by a mixer and hence the mixer accounts = for the rate adjusting if required to mix each sample.
>
> This doesn't really help a mixer perform that function any easier = for the reasons stated and only would under situations where it was designe= d to.
>
> Receivers using legacy algorithms or profiles would still be able to d= o this if required by their system when required based on better informatio= n than conveyed as indicated in this draft.=C2=A0
>
> On Dec 15, 2014 11:25 AM, "Kevin Gross" <kevin.gross@avanw.com> wr= ote:
> >
> > The timestamp in SRs is NTP format but RFC 3550 does not require = you to get those time stamps from a specific clock. This RFC (7273) allows = you to signal what clock you're using so senders and receivers can sync= hronize. Prior to RFC 7273, receivers made undisclosed assumptions about clocks or simply adjusted empirically to wha= tever clocking the sender is doing. The improvement here is to have a commo= n clock for multiple senders so that streams can be readily combined at a r= eceiver that is receiving multiple streams from different senders.
> >
> > Kevin Gross - AVA Networks
> >
> > On Mon, Dec 15, 2014 at 7:53 AM, Julius Friedman <juliusfriedman@gmail.com<= /a>> wrote:
> >>
> >> I'll check out that section and re-write in if necessary.=
> >>
> >> One thing on your response I have to clarify.
> >> The sr allowed this synchronization.
> >>
> >> The reference clock is virtually set to the time difference b= etween the ntp timestamp in the sender report and the receiver.
> >>
> >> That's seems synchronized to me.
> >>
> >> What difference does it make if his clock is wrong? Furthermo= re if sender uses a clock on mars.
> >>
> >> Can you succinctly state why we need to know more details abo= ut clock rate than already available 20 years later?
> >>
> >> How does my application benefit from this?
> >>
> >> Furthermore it seems dynamic clock rates are not addressed. > >>
> >> Thanks for responding.
> >>
> >> On Dec 15, 2014 3:11 AM, "Brandenburg, R. (Ray) van"= ; <
ray.va= nbrandenburg@tno.nl> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Hi Julius,
> >>>
> >>> Thanks for your constructive and positively-formulated fe= edback.=C2=A0
> >>>
> >>> I advise you to read section 2 on Applications. It will a= nswer most of your questions.=C2=A0
> >>>
> >>> Furthermore, you seem to have missed a number of aspects:=
> >>>
> >>> - There is a difference between a media clock and a refer= ence clock. I don=E2=80=99t see how any RTP profile or current SDP is going= to help you to know which reference clock you=E2=80=99re using. Without th= at information, how are you going to synchronize two different receivers?=C2=A0
> >>> - There is a difference between specifying a media clock = rate (which is done in an RTP profile) and specifying how that clock rate i= s determined.=C2=A0
> >>>
> >>> If you have any more questions, I encourage you to voice = your opinion on the AVT mailing list.
> >>>
> >>> Best regards,
> >>>
> >>> Ray

=C2=A0

This message may contain information that is = not intended for you. If you are not the addressee or if this message was s= ent to you by mistake, you are requested to inform the sender and delete th= e message. TNO accepts no liability for the content of this e-mail, for the= manner in which you use it and for damage of any kind resulting from the r= isks inherent to the electronic transmission of messages.

--047d7b5dbb983b0032050a6a095b-- From nobody Wed Dec 17 06:20:39 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43D5B1A884B for ; Wed, 17 Dec 2014 06:20:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id anpSM2ec7mi9 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 2014 06:20:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pa0-x233.google.com (mail-pa0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c03::233]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7B1691A1B57 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 2014 06:20:36 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pa0-f51.google.com with SMTP id ey11so16384883pad.24 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 2014 06:20:35 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=+svu0KlQrxS5vJrbezevHP88HZnRirRbksEs/rs4/TI=; b=Z3ZKQRzcLIAYeVzbPGYx2qS3eKgK4EIt3eYvWpL9GRDrMpb8Emm8yieykP6pNPzb4t ytuMOEBnbgNd6iASxiRBNHDpnjr07Vr3whxGPmsj1uXrggZGBZ/+EYJdiGz0js9HUZb1 Lg63KaRQG/hSaGhHdvMAmOkmbA08l8LW6b2sHnTjcHADZJXy7EUVhP+e3NzHj38bjI0B KVu050DHCfDslW37m3CyYbVZQ0xccauR3mnLksol5n8GXZetOEUbSLxpLSXpV5ytxNan oBMF8KN0S+jphl19/tWuPumPWqT8/dNaU8unMmDzziVegLU7R8eRsMrXa0r2vv5Xa0EB Xzvw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.70.41.134 with SMTP id f6mr36075642pdl.25.1418826035772; Wed, 17 Dec 2014 06:20:35 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.70.117.99 with HTTP; Wed, 17 Dec 2014 06:20:35 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.70.117.99 with HTTP; Wed, 17 Dec 2014 06:20:35 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <27CF275E-2456-4D18-BB25-75E147411214@tno.nl> Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2014 09:20:35 -0500 Message-ID: From: Julius Friedman To: Simon Perreault , avt@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7bfeb080dc45b6050a6a2d85 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/avt/NF-7HgajY-IYr1eiDaEaLPkDvBU Subject: Re: [AVTCORE] Mail regarding draft-ietf-avtcore-clksrc X-BeenThere: avt@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2014 14:20:38 -0000 --047d7bfeb080dc45b6050a6a2d85 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Well I didn't know that we could define rfc documents for things which break others. I also didn't realize that we published them either without determining applicability and appropriateness in ALL use cases. Its not my fault no one used the standard tools available. Its also not my fault basic changes which allow correct operations are turned away but proprietary documents which outline incomplete mechanisms are indeed accepted. Get on the ball / with the times already. If you understood the topics at hand as well as you elude to then I obviously wouldn't have any issues and wouldn't be urged to clean up a mess I see which provides no benefits and incomplete information. Obviously rtp has had this problem from the beginning and rather then just make a new protocol we all agree on we bastardize standards existing and convoluted the implementation so much rtp systems are more complex then mpeg which is transported under rtp. The points have been made and its not a threat its a promise. Sincerely, Julius Richard Friedman On Dec 17, 2014 9:04 AM, "Simon Perreault" wrote: > > On Wed, Dec 17, 2014 at 8:51 AM, Brandenburg, R. (Ray) van < > ray.vanbrandenburg@tno.nl> wrote: >> >> until you can articulate a succinctly defined scenario which also handles >> the issues I cite then I will file errata > > > Until now I never thought that errata could be wielded as a weapon... > > "Clear that DISCUSS or I will file errata!" :D > > Simon > --047d7bfeb080dc45b6050a6a2d85 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Well I didn't know that we could define rfc documents fo= r things which break others.

I also didn't realize that we published them either with= out determining applicability and appropriateness in ALL use cases.

Its not my fault no one used the standard tools available. <= /p>

Its also not my fault basic changes which allow correct oper= ations=C2=A0 are turned away but proprietary documents which outline incomp= lete mechanisms are indeed accepted.

Get on the ball / with the times already.

If you understood the topics at hand as well as you elude to= then I obviously wouldn't have any issues and wouldn't be urged to= clean up a mess I see which provides no benefits and incomplete informatio= n.

Obviously rtp has had this problem from the beginning and ra= ther then just make a new protocol we all agree on we bastardize standards = existing and convoluted the implementation so much rtp systems are more com= plex then mpeg which is transported under rtp.

The points have been made and its not a threat its a promise= .

Sincerely,
Julius Richard Friedman

On Dec 17, 2014 9:04 AM, "Simon Perreault&q= uot; <sperreault@jive.com>= wrote:

On Wed, Dec = 17, 2014 at 8:51 AM, Brandenburg, R. (Ray) van <ray.vanbrandenburg= @tno.nl> wrote:
until you can a= rticulate a succinctly defined scenario which also handles the issues I cit= e then I will file errata

Until now I never thought that errat= a could be wielded as a weapon...

"Clear that DISCUSS or I will file errata!= " :D

Simon
--047d7bfeb080dc45b6050a6a2d85-- From nobody Wed Dec 17 06:21:40 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B61E81A1B57 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 2014 06:21:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.236 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.236 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ybhg8GgnL0IW for ; Wed, 17 Dec 2014 06:21:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from implementers.org (implementers.org [IPv6:2604:3400:dc1:41:216:3eff:fe5b:8240]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 31C241A1B42 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 2014 06:21:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from [IPv6:2001:470:40b8:0:e4a5:6145:ea10:154d] (unknown [IPv6:2001:470:40b8:0:e4a5:6145:ea10:154d]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "Marc Petit-Huguenin", Issuer "implementers.org" (verified OK)) by implementers.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1CAF820175; Wed, 17 Dec 2014 15:21:35 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <5491916D.7060201@acm.org> Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2014 07:21:33 -0700 From: Marc Petit-Huguenin User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Icedove/31.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Simon Perreault References: <27CF275E-2456-4D18-BB25-75E147411214@tno.nl> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/avt/eukulsr7X1BidVR_Lg3a38b4DA4 Cc: rfc-interest , "avt@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [AVTCORE] Mail regarding draft-ietf-avtcore-clksrc X-BeenThere: avt@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2014 14:21:38 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 12/17/2014 07:04 AM, Simon Perreault wrote: > > On Wed, Dec 17, 2014 at 8:51 AM, Brandenburg, R. (Ray) van > wrote: > > until you can articulate a succinctly defined scenario which also handles the issues I cite then I will file errata > > > Until now I never thought that errata could be wielded as a weapon... > > "Clear that DISCUSS or I will file errata!" :D > > Simon > IMO the errata process is broken. It's not a bug tracking system and each time someone fills a bogus errata it adds burden on protocol implementers. Follow-up on rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org - -- Marc Petit-Huguenin Email: marc@petit-huguenin.org Blog: http://blog.marc.petit-huguenin.org Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/petithug -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1 iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJUkZFtAAoJECnERZXWan7EFaoP/iQO6wV8nkOB5Us3s6CvFJgS xMocHvWoa7A81o2FtaRfjIM17o+5lfZ9scRXAfPoMIDJIfYniKmGBSaNwnsv7hCx eVzIuUXEJrPnNF44Gzevatyl5MZozncY2t9QewOL64Dlsu7A7Th52Mul56smkeMY AZmznTo+OljzhkjaQclCfv7kkKrgX8C7c1Bc9bCm/fAb1IdJHMzpu/2usxd/RWou k2Hn34eoHWoKAyQlRE3GUyEp0RSmta62lr2yBffyg4SSc7Tlz3qZCucErMpRj7r6 8poG887V1BS/FTvm7MaFippm49JrVXpZ8JSBp9MSeIhAjqSu2IsL81eGZ80JCqI2 MWpvA8IObnpHEmedy2vrd3QPyeZgeagsd8AAc10Ke6qgsTdsHb/j6bvfPj+EI6YR oeU2PNGh398OAvQfEdxxftYAxWjS8sxnp396TVpi7TR5w8CMONxUcDt6Ruj1Si2s vH2WGQCDKc4xoQ9vhMXbS4uuySX7V3PmRrZMaepMwMTuiCkLmyt4SFg1K0/aSxvA 02XtdANsSf/v8daIS715pyhqqtEuqfhE/UyOyoi870yJqjpFDwnk54DMZlDnyguG juphXdcymZFO2aK64UiBTIHNc/m0TKEewIZgefRgzb8OGgO+glP30egELc2peM3K CRDDd4ffjfX4QAew/8zl =Vndl -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From nobody Wed Dec 17 06:22:29 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F82F1A1B42 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 2014 06:22:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.115 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.115 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_NL=0.55, HOST_EQ_NL=1.545, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nwKJvv0W57Xx for ; Wed, 17 Dec 2014 06:22:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from fromintoutb.tno.nl (fromintoutb.tno.nl [134.221.1.27]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 71B441A897C for ; Wed, 17 Dec 2014 06:22:21 -0800 (PST) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.07,594,1413237600"; d="scan'208,217";a="5840735" Received: from exc-cashub01.tsn.tno.nl (HELO mail.tno.nl) ([134.221.225.220]) by mailhost1b.tno.nl with ESMTP; 17 Dec 2014 15:22:20 +0100 Received: from EXC-MBX03.tsn.tno.nl ([fe80::e969:1300:fb9f:7e12]) by EXC-CASHUB01.tsn.tno.nl ([fe80::b855:be6:1aa8:4d0f%13]) with mapi id 14.03.0195.001; Wed, 17 Dec 2014 15:22:20 +0100 From: "Brandenburg, R. (Ray) van" To: Julius Friedman , "avt@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [AVTCORE] Mail regarding draft-ietf-avtcore-clksrc Thread-Index: AQHQF8TJg3PO8B/2Tk6LIZauOQ/jB5yQTgQAgABfWICAABlXgIAAA44AgAGVR0D///yzAIABIzPAgAA7VoCAABboAP//9GmAgAATVJA= Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2014 14:22:19 +0000 Message-ID: References: <27CF275E-2456-4D18-BB25-75E147411214@tno.nl> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US, nl-NL Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [134.221.225.191] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_FCC100FC8D6B034CB88CD8173B2DA1582032185AEXCMBX03tsntnon_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/avt/i9OijAgxXHEBCutdQK6ufMhNZSQ Subject: Re: [AVTCORE] Mail regarding draft-ietf-avtcore-clksrc X-BeenThere: avt@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2014 14:22:27 -0000 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(Hans)" To: Julius Friedman , "Brandenburg, R. (Ray) van" , "avt@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [AVTCORE] Mail regarding draft-ietf-avtcore-clksrc Thread-Index: AQHQF8TJWEXFH0YOUkmBG9lIjGA0C5yQPTkAgAOZt06AAAZ6QA== Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2014 14:39:45 +0000 Message-ID: <7F110B3ECC623C4EADDEB82154F2693D1353A8FD@EXC-MBX01.tsn.tno.nl> References: <27CF275E-2456-4D18-BB25-75E147411214@tno.nl> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US, nl-NL Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [134.221.225.153] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_7F110B3ECC623C4EADDEB82154F2693D1353A8FDEXCMBX01tsntnon_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/avt/zSfvOCDu6X2Xq7W-clpAZYVf0Bk Subject: Re: [AVTCORE] Mail regarding draft-ietf-avtcore-clksrc X-BeenThere: avt@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2014 14:39:54 -0000 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--_000_7F110B3ECC623C4EADDEB82154F2693D1353A8FDEXCMBX01tsntnon_-- From nobody Wed Dec 17 07:37:02 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FC301A1B1E for ; Wed, 17 Dec 2014 07:37:00 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ebuMmpo3ljRY for ; Wed, 17 Dec 2014 07:36:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pa0-x230.google.com (mail-pa0-x230.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c03::230]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate 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Received: by 10.70.117.99 with HTTP; Wed, 17 Dec 2014 07:36:55 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <038501d01a0c$93470820$b9d51860$@gmail.com> References: <20141204014737.6282D181CD3@rfc-editor.org> <038501d01a0c$93470820$b9d51860$@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2014 10:36:55 -0500 Message-ID: From: Julius Friedman To: Roni Even , avt@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b5dbb98dbe19e050a6b3e13 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/avt/k4GPZelwH_fbr2EAZ4YsidN8D6g Subject: Re: [AVTCORE] [Technical Errata Reported] RFC3550 (4192) X-BeenThere: avt@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2014 15:37:00 -0000 --047d7b5dbb98dbe19e050a6b3e13 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 So quite simply how can jitter and transit use the absolute time from packet to packet but yet the calculation of payload data rate is using the same? Wouldn't time spent on non data items be used then? What about the security concerns related to congruence? How is that not errata unless these invalid calculations and security issues were intentionally mandated and why now would I knowing these things continue to do things as usual? Furthermore can you simply tell me what breaks if I use the octets indicated as I indicated (by only not accounting for the 12 octet header)? WITH ALL DUE RESPECT That should be the determining factor not your opinions about intentions. My tests reveal faster synchronization with rtcp with legacy clients as well as a correct rate and data rate when then is calculated by removing the csrc extension and padding. How about some calculations and tests are also performed to validate this as most default profiles don't use any of the items in question anyway. Additionally why has nothing been said about rfc2326 and errata 4199? Thanks! On Dec 17, 2014 10:17 AM, "Roni Even" wrote: > Hi, > This is not an errata and if there is a requirement for a different metrics > it can be specified as a new metrics (maybe using XR reports) and not by > changing existing metrics. > > Thanks > Roni Even > AVTCore co-chair > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: avt [mailto:avt-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of RFC Errata System > > Sent: 04 December, 2014 3:48 AM > > To: schulzrinne@cs.columbia.edu; casner@acm.org; ronf@bluecoat.com; > > van@packetdesign.com; rlb@ipv.sx; alissa@cooperw.in; > keith.drage@alcatel- > > lucent.com; roni.even@mail01.huawei.com > > Cc: juliusfriedman@gmail.com; avt@ietf.org; rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org > > Subject: [AVTCORE] [Technical Errata Reported] RFC3550 (4192) > > > > The following errata report has been submitted for RFC3550, > > "RTP: A Transport Protocol for Real-Time Applications". > > > > -------------------------------------- > > You may review the report below and at: > > http://www.rfc-editor.org/errata_search.php?rfc=3550&eid=4192 > > > > -------------------------------------- > > Type: Technical > > Reported by: Julius Friedman > > > > Section: 6.4.1 > > > > Original Text > > ------------- > > sender's octet count: 32 bits > > The total number of payload octets (i.e., not including header or > > padding) transmitted in RTP data packets by the sender since > > starting transmission up until the time this SR packet was > > generated. The count SHOULD be reset if the sender changes its > > SSRC identifier. This field can be used to estimate the average > > payload data rate. > > > > Corrected Text > > -------------- > > sender's octet count: 32 bits > > The total number of payload octets > > transmitted in RTP data packets by the sender since > > starting transmission up until the time this SR packet was > > generated. The count SHOULD be reset if the sender changes its > > SSRC identifier. This field can be used to estimate the average > > payload data rate. > > > > Notes > > ----- > > Where as payload octets is defined as the total number of data octets > > contained in a Rtp Packet minus the 12 Header octets for Rtp Packets. > > > > Padding octets as well as octets which occur in the contributing source > list > > should also be included as they may differ on a per packet basis and > would > > make the total calculation invalid. > > > > During TCP communication any application layer header should NOT be > > included in the total bytes count when including the header length. > > > > Any Rtcp packet counters should include the total length of the packet > (header, > > padding and any other data). > > > > Instructions: > > ------------- > > This erratum is currently posted as "Reported". If necessary, please use > "Reply > > All" to discuss whether it should be verified or rejected. When a > decision > is > > reached, the verifying party (IESG) can log in to change the status and > edit the > > report, if necessary. > > > > -------------------------------------- > > RFC3550 (draft-ietf-avt-rtp-new-12) > > -------------------------------------- > > Title : RTP: A Transport Protocol for Real-Time > Applications > > Publication Date : July 2003 > > Author(s) : H. Schulzrinne, S. Casner, R. Frederick, V. > Jacobson > > Category : DRAFT STANDARD > > Source : Audio/Video Transport > > Area : Real-time Applications and Infrastructure > > Stream : IETF > > Verifying Party : IESG > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance > > avt@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avt > > --047d7b5dbb98dbe19e050a6b3e13 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

So quite simply how can jitter and transit use the absolute = time from packet to packet but yet the calculation of payload data rate is = using the same?

Wouldn't time spent on non data items be used then?

What about the security concerns related to congruence?

How is that not errata unless these invalid calculations and= security issues were intentionally mandated and why now would I knowing th= ese things continue to do things as usual?

Furthermore can you simply tell me what breaks if I use the = octets indicated as I indicated (by only not accounting for the 12 octet he= ader)?

WITH ALL DUE RESPECT That should be the determining factor n= ot your opinions about intentions.

My tests reveal faster synchronization with rtcp with legacy= clients as well as a correct rate and data rate when then is calculated by= removing the csrc extension and padding.

How about some calculations and tests are also performed to = validate this as most default profiles don't use any of the items in qu= estion anyway.

Additionally why has nothing been said about rfc2326 and err= ata 4199?

Thanks!

On Dec 17, 2014 10:17 AM, "Roni Even" = <ron.even.tlv@gmail.com>= ; wrote:
Hi,
This is not an errata and if there is a requirement for a different metrics=
it can be specified as a new metrics (maybe using XR reports) and not by changing existing metrics.

Thanks
Roni Even
AVTCore co-chair

> -----Original Message-----
> From: avt [mailto:avt-bounces@= ietf.org] On Behalf Of RFC Errata System
> Sent: 04 December, 2014 3:48 AM
> To: schulzrinne@cs.colu= mbia.edu; casner@acm.org; ronf@bluecoat.com;
> van@packetdesign.com; rlb@= ipv.sx; alissa@cooperw.in; keith.d= rage@alcatel-
> lucent.com; roni.even@mail01.huawei.com > Cc: juliusfriedman@gmail.c= om; avt@ietf.org; rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org
> Subject: [AVTCORE] [Technical Errata Reported] RFC3550 (4192)
>
> The following errata report has been submitted for RFC3550,
> "RTP: A Transport Protocol for Real-Time Applications".
>
> --------------------------------------
> You may review the report below and at:
> http://www.rfc-editor.org/errata_search.php?r= fc=3D3550&eid=3D4192
>
> --------------------------------------
> Type: Technical
> Reported by: Julius Friedman <juliusfriedman@gmail.com>
>
> Section: 6.4.1
>
> Original Text
> -------------
> sender's octet count: 32 bits
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The total number of payload octets (i.e., no= t including header or
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0padding) transmitted in RTP data packets by = the sender since
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0starting transmission up until the time this= SR packet was
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0generated.=C2=A0 The count SHOULD be reset i= f the sender changes its
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0SSRC identifier.=C2=A0 This field can be use= d to estimate the average
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0payload data rate.
>
> Corrected Text
> --------------
> sender's octet count: 32 bits
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The total number of payload octets
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0transmitted in RTP data packets by the sende= r since
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0starting transmission up until the time this= SR packet was
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0generated.=C2=A0 The count SHOULD be reset i= f the sender changes its
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0SSRC identifier.=C2=A0 This field can be use= d to estimate the average
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0payload data rate.
>
> Notes
> -----
> Where as payload octets is defined as the total number of data octets<= br> > contained in a Rtp Packet minus the 12 Header octets for Rtp Packets.<= br> >
> Padding octets as well as octets which occur in the contributing sourc= e
list
> should also be included as they may differ on a per packet basis and w= ould
> make the total calculation invalid.
>
> During TCP communication any application layer header should NOT be > included in the total bytes count when including the header length. >
> Any Rtcp packet counters should include the total length of the packet=
(header,
> padding and any other data).
>
> Instructions:
> -------------
> This erratum is currently posted as "Reported". If necessary= , please use
"Reply
> All" to discuss whether it should be verified or rejected. When a= decision
is
> reached, the verifying party (IESG) can log in to change the status an= d
edit the
> report, if necessary.
>
> --------------------------------------
> RFC3550 (draft-ietf-avt-rtp-new-12)
> --------------------------------------
> Title=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0: RTP: A T= ransport Protocol for Real-Time Applications
> Publication Date=C2=A0 =C2=A0 : July 2003
> Author(s)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0: H. Schulzrinne, S.= Casner, R. Frederick, V. Jacobson
> Category=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 : DRAFT STANDARD
> Source=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 : Audio/Video T= ransport
> Area=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 : Real-tim= e Applications and Infrastructure
> Stream=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 : IETF
> Verifying Party=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0: IESG
>
> _______________________________________________
> Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance
> avt@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avt

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en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.197.38.6] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-PMX-Version: 6.0.3.2322014, Antispam-Engine: 2.7.2.2107409, Antispam-Data: 2014.12.17.70030 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/avt/CSv5s0xbR2vCW8X5ilTX2AauqOo X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 17 Dec 2014 10:03:39 -0800 Cc: "avt@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [AVTCORE] Mail regarding draft-ietf-avt-app-rtp-keepalive (rfc6263) X-BeenThere: avt@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2014 09:56:57 -0000 SGVsbG8NCg0KPiBQbGVhc2UgaW5kaWNhdGUgd2h5IHRoaXMgaXMgbmVjZXNzYXJ5IGlmIEkgYW0g bXVsdGlwbGV4aW5nIGFuZCBydGNwIGlzIGVuYWJsZWQuICBNeSBuYXQgd2lsbCBub3QgdGltZW91 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cmFuZ2UgaXMgbm90IGxpYWJsZSBmb3IgbWVzc2FnZXMgdGhhdCBoYXZlIGJlZW4gbW9kaWZpZWQs IGNoYW5nZWQgb3IgZmFsc2lmaWVkLgpUaGFuayB5b3UuCgo= From nobody Wed Dec 17 10:03:47 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90D801A701F for ; Wed, 17 Dec 2014 05:47:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FREEMAIL_REPLY=1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 98HNjOjcFb70 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 2014 05:47:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from relais-inet.francetelecom.com (relais-ias91.francetelecom.com [193.251.215.91]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D5AA71A1B37 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 2014 05:47:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from omfedm08.si.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.4]) by omfedm12.si.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id E6CA718C1A4; Wed, 17 Dec 2014 14:47:21 +0100 (CET) Received: from Exchangemail-eme1.itn.ftgroup (unknown [10.114.1.183]) by omfedm08.si.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id C8715238096; Wed, 17 Dec 2014 14:47:21 +0100 (CET) Received: from PEXCVZYM12.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::81f:1640:4749:5d13]) by PEXCVZYH02.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([::1]) with mapi id 14.03.0210.002; Wed, 17 Dec 2014 14:47:21 +0100 From: To: Julius Friedman Thread-Topic: Mail regarding draft-ietf-avt-app-rtp-keepalive (rfc6263) Thread-Index: AQHQGf5LfFab9a8WMUGtVKfmQZKc/ZyTy3lg Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2014 13:47:20 +0000 Message-ID: <3152_1418824041_54918969_3152_1948_1_719DF432C01EA6418EBA5185063A1661140A9824@PEXCVZYM12.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> References: <3572_1418810212_54915364_3572_14092_1_719DF432C01EA6418EBA5185063A1661140A9765@PEXCVZYM12.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.197.38.6] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_719DF432C01EA6418EBA5185063A1661140A9824PEXCVZYM12corpo_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-PMX-Version: 6.0.3.2322014, Antispam-Engine: 2.7.2.2107409, Antispam-Data: 2014.12.16.112421 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/avt/9kMl7wjkJMeUR40EzEo3d9cQzW0 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 17 Dec 2014 10:03:39 -0800 Cc: "avt@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [AVTCORE] Mail regarding draft-ietf-avt-app-rtp-keepalive (rfc6263) X-BeenThere: avt@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2014 13:47:27 -0000 --_000_719DF432C01EA6418EBA5185063A1661140A9824PEXCVZYM12corpo_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 QnV0IEkgZG9u4oCZdCB1bmRlcnN0YW5kIHlvdXIgc2VudGVuY2Ug4oCcc28gdGhlIHdoeSBpcyB0 aGlzIHJlcXVpcmVk4oCdPyBXaGF0IGFyZSB5b3UgcmVmZXJyaW5nIHRvPyBOb3RoaW5nIGlzIHJl cXVpcmVkIGluIHRoaXMgUkZDLg0KDQpUaGUgc2VuZGluZyBvZiBhIHBhY2tldCByZXBlYXRpbmcg cHJldmlvdXMgaGVhZGVyIGlzIGEgcG9zc2liaWxpdHkgeWVzLCBub3QgbGlzdGVkIGluIHRoZSBS RkMsIGJ1dCB0aGUgUkZDIGRvZXMgbm90IGNsYWltcyB0byBiZSBleGhhdXN0aXZlLiBBbnkgd2F5 IGl0IGRvZXMgbm90IGNoYW5nZSB0aGUgU2VjdGlvbiA1IHJlY29tbWVuZGF0aW9uLg0KDQoNCkRl IDogSnVsaXVzIEZyaWVkbWFuIFttYWlsdG86anVsaXVzZnJpZWRtYW5AZ21haWwuY29tXQ0KRW52 b3nDqSA6IG1lcmNyZWRpIDE3IGTDqWNlbWJyZSAyMDE0IDE0OjM1DQrDgCA6IFNPTExBVUQgQXVy w6lsaWVuIElNVC9PTE4NCkNjIDogYXZ0QGlldGYub3JnDQpPYmpldCA6IFJFOiBNYWlsIHJlZ2Fy 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[79.182.183.87]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id 18sm5437551wjr.46.2014.12.17.07.17.28 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 17 Dec 2014 07:17:31 -0800 (PST) From: "Roni Even" To: "'RFC Errata System'" , , , , , , , , References: <20141204014737.6282D181CD3@rfc-editor.org> In-Reply-To: <20141204014737.6282D181CD3@rfc-editor.org> Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2014 17:17:26 +0200 Message-ID: <038501d01a0c$93470820$b9d51860$@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AQJvCMH9baWrqIJV+dHonQB3GPaQkJtWBvAw Content-Language: en-us Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/avt/zKA0vGPLWQBq-3rv3OSxMAj01ks X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 17 Dec 2014 10:03:39 -0800 Cc: juliusfriedman@gmail.com, avt@ietf.org Subject: Re: [AVTCORE] [Technical Errata Reported] RFC3550 (4192) X-BeenThere: avt@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2014 15:17:37 -0000 Hi, This is not an errata and if there is a requirement for a different metrics it can be specified as a new metrics (maybe using XR reports) and not by changing existing metrics. Thanks Roni Even AVTCore co-chair > -----Original Message----- > From: avt [mailto:avt-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of RFC Errata System > Sent: 04 December, 2014 3:48 AM > To: schulzrinne@cs.columbia.edu; casner@acm.org; ronf@bluecoat.com; > van@packetdesign.com; rlb@ipv.sx; alissa@cooperw.in; keith.drage@alcatel- > lucent.com; roni.even@mail01.huawei.com > Cc: juliusfriedman@gmail.com; avt@ietf.org; rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org > Subject: [AVTCORE] [Technical Errata Reported] RFC3550 (4192) > > The following errata report has been submitted for RFC3550, > "RTP: A Transport Protocol for Real-Time Applications". > > -------------------------------------- > You may review the report below and at: > http://www.rfc-editor.org/errata_search.php?rfc=3550&eid=4192 > > -------------------------------------- > Type: Technical > Reported by: Julius Friedman > > Section: 6.4.1 > > Original Text > ------------- > sender's octet count: 32 bits > The total number of payload octets (i.e., not including header or > padding) transmitted in RTP data packets by the sender since > starting transmission up until the time this SR packet was > generated. The count SHOULD be reset if the sender changes its > SSRC identifier. This field can be used to estimate the average > payload data rate. > > Corrected Text > -------------- > sender's octet count: 32 bits > The total number of payload octets > transmitted in RTP data packets by the sender since > starting transmission up until the time this SR packet was > generated. The count SHOULD be reset if the sender changes its > SSRC identifier. This field can be used to estimate the average > payload data rate. > > Notes > ----- > Where as payload octets is defined as the total number of data octets > contained in a Rtp Packet minus the 12 Header octets for Rtp Packets. > > Padding octets as well as octets which occur in the contributing source list > should also be included as they may differ on a per packet basis and would > make the total calculation invalid. > > During TCP communication any application layer header should NOT be > included in the total bytes count when including the header length. > > Any Rtcp packet counters should include the total length of the packet (header, > padding and any other data). > > Instructions: > ------------- > This erratum is currently posted as "Reported". If necessary, please use "Reply > All" to discuss whether it should be verified or rejected. When a decision is > reached, the verifying party (IESG) can log in to change the status and edit the > report, if necessary. > > -------------------------------------- > RFC3550 (draft-ietf-avt-rtp-new-12) > -------------------------------------- > Title : RTP: A Transport Protocol for Real-Time Applications > Publication Date : July 2003 > Author(s) : H. Schulzrinne, S. Casner, R. Frederick, V. Jacobson > Category : DRAFT STANDARD > Source : Audio/Video Transport > Area : Real-time Applications and Infrastructure > Stream : IETF > Verifying Party : IESG > > _______________________________________________ > Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance > avt@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avt From nobody Wed Dec 17 12:47:52 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07D391A8799 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 2014 12:47:52 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_20=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lzlaWdAPhBzi for ; Wed, 17 Dec 2014 12:47:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pa0-x236.google.com (mail-pa0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c03::236]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A522C1A8732 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 2014 12:47:47 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pa0-f54.google.com with SMTP id fb1so17065597pad.41 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 2014 12:47:47 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=weectsnJ8neGGUBwrIza2l3Jwj+Y3SG6N74e1LsZibY=; b=B2gg9Wg8cTlp9fAaPa9ePoygAS25IcY1ctJyiGH8kei35m2LZTQc2gooKKG/jhq2Fs j9w6ZNr/ovq22LLUP6DD/gGHmhvS2dOugF9eEcCALuHgonaFHxNoHhjlCr391LrDHylw ne2czFTOnAKdB9/3Cc+xV1brjpFFDYKQtxLOt6F4qAPh9OZcDiP67U48pIUknaEsdfOw qjYok4b4OEQUeFuoF4WnM+4g25MQpm/VkK+hxPfkU0ShcXNTEDIpAofP72zBBWomkbWr IowW2p4PksXmljkLFKcZiYy4II+KvjRHO3BT4vp6OjZ7CLyKrgaycGWkV5dPAMCM+7Oj FrEQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.66.65.168 with SMTP id y8mr74541794pas.48.1418849266517; Wed, 17 Dec 2014 12:47:46 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.70.117.99 with HTTP; Wed, 17 Dec 2014 12:47:46 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2014 15:47:46 -0500 Message-ID: From: Julius Friedman To: avt@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11362f10854d16050a6f962d Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/avt/ux9kfUgukd4EuTy3Tmk6rLd6eho Subject: [AVTCORE] On the following Eratta X-BeenThere: avt@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2014 20:47:52 -0000 --001a11362f10854d16050a6f962d Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Dear Members, This is my last and final attempt to ensure I have clearly outlined my issues as I see them, I will also attempt to address any confusion or 'hostility' or other such issues with my posts to this list. I initially wrote to the ALL original authors of which only one replied stating "no time was available to deal with the issue at present." at which point I then wrote into the 'mmusic' group with an the same issue related to Rtsp, this issue was what I have now filed as Errata 4199. http://www.rfc-editor.org/errata_search.php?rfc=2435&eid=4199 Absolutely no one responded on the list and I assumed (possibly incorrectly) that I was either not signed up correctly or there was another issue related to the transmission of the message to the group. I proceeded to wait for a response and in the mean time I also asked questions about RFC2435 which also went unanswered. There were 4 separate issues so I filed separate Errata for each issue: http://www.rfc-editor.org/errata_search.php?rfc=2435 Respectively Errata 4094 - 4097. When I filed those Errata using the same process I started receiving emails which indicated my responses were now going through to the list. I also had an issue with 3550, and specifically the one which I was responded as a result of filling Errata 4192. http://www.rfc-editor.org/errata_search.php?rfc=3550 Those are my only Errata at the current time. On Errata 4192: Mr. Casner advised me of the following on Dec 5 2014: "Let me clarify. When we wrote that sentence, we were stating why this field was included. It was included so that receivers would be able to know the sender's average payload data rate over various time intervals by taking the value of this field from two sender reports and dividing by the difference in time of the two sender reports. The receiver might want to compare that result with the average of the data as received (perhaps with some losses)." Given this example I responded with concerns due to the following: 1) Time used for calculating inter-arrival jitter, transit and other such values take into account the ABSOLUTE time of reference from when a packet was received to when a packet was received. Using such a time reference I am thus also using data which is not part of the payload in my time reference point. Without values to indicate how much of each field was not related to payload data (which a receiver would have to track on it's own) it would also be impossible to estimate such information. I also indicated several scenarios which show that I may not increment any values for the counter when using only csrc/extension and padding or any combination therein. This is again both a security issue and causes an invalid payload data rate to be calculated. At this point it was the following was stated "Rtp has worked for 18 years and even if this is correct would cause a protocol change..." I accepted that response and indicated how I didn't really agree that it required a protocol change since other such textual changes have and continue to be made to RFC3550. As part of my argument I stated a scenario where padding should have been at the top of the payload with any other option fields and the fact that it was not CAN cause data loss and should require a protocol change where as something like I proposed would not. That itself opened up a totally separate discussion which was deemed valid by at least two participants who advised I draft something because it was more prestigious to draft rather then to file Errata. It is not my intention to seek fame or profit for this work, I only intend to either be corrected or to correct the standard. I wrote in comments on the drafts which were published because of two things: 1) Following the same thinking as given in response to my proposal which was "Rtp has worked for 18 years.." why are those new drafts needed? I went further to show that my comments were more then just suggestive in the fact that there are several ways one can achieve "keep alive" and "leap year insertion" as well as local synchronization also where it is no necessary. If those changes are valid then why would my change be any less valid considering it adds nothing new? 2) Ideas presented in the one or two of drafts were limited in the sense they did not address additional security concerns which were then possible when introducing the related content. Specifically the leap year draft doesn't state what happens if a person appears to be stuck in the leap year instant and causes time to appear to stand still to a receiver. Or if I am following a clock referenced by another standard I should be aware of the details which validate and invalidate such clock readings and would otherwise cause loss. Since NTP already provides a time reference when can then be used to provide intermedia synchronization, this is indicated by Mr.Schulzrinne here: http://www.cs.columbia.edu/~hgs/rtp/faq.html#sr-timestamp Where it also is indicated that there are issues when calculating jitter when the Timestamp remains the same. (on the same page) http://www.cs.columbia.edu/~hgs/rtp/faq.html#jitter Given those notions and further the acknowledgement that no updated related to the Timestamp has since been issued I am curious of the following: Why were existing standard tools such as feedback or the AVB RTP / RTCP definitions not used when there is a specific profile and separate draft for them? Realistically asking those questions may seem hostile so I digress, I really just want to address the original issues I filled errata for rather then arguing; At this point if someone can indicate to me how I can just correctly utilize the senders octet count when extension, csrc, padding and now "keep alives" are in use I will also accept such an answer so long as the math can be demonstrated correctly and retract my errata. It would be also be a very good learning experience if someone would be willing to indicate why it should not be done as I have suggested, after all when I test these changes with legacy software I sometimes find they also seem to agree with my understanding of the equations given rather then the standards so I am only attempting to resolve those differences. If anything else is required to have my Erratta answered please let me know, at this point I don't care if it's rejected or scorned or annoying, I would like to know HOW and WHY it breaks something when I cannot seem to replicate anything but more positive results. On Errata 4094 - 4097. I have filed those before any of the others and have had no responses relating to their creation or correctness. If we would kindly address these items I would also appreciate it which are: I have found an instance where the given code in the RFC did not handle images with single quantization tables e.g. black and white images. I have submitted a correction for this. I have also showed that its possible to convey the exact sub sampling as indicated in the image while allowing the existing 'Type' parameter to be used. I have shown larger images than the given can be sent using a simple reversal of the FragmentOffset verses the actual offset in the file. I have again demonstrated these changes can work with existing software depending how they are employed and the format needing transfer. On Errata 4199: I have yet to receive a response for this even though it has been replicated in the wild and in several different implementations as well as Live 555 through VLC. http://www.videolan.org/security/sa1202.html I had originally written in about this issue many months ago but it seems for some reason neither the Errata or any communication to the group in reference can be found. I recently submitted this Errata again and hopefully we can address the following issues as well: I would like to begin first by correcting my Errata which contains a typo: *Please note the hexadecimal octet 0x36 should not be included in any part of a RTSP message, if present it should be replaced with binary escaped sequence as defined in: *. Should read as follows: *Please note the hexadecimal octet 0x24 should not be included in any part of a RTSP message, if present it should be replaced with binary escaped sequence as defined in: *. This can be visualized under the following circumstance: S->C: GET_PARAMETER rtsp://example.com/fizzle/foo RTSP/1.0 CSeq: 431 Content-Type: text/parameters Session: 12345678 Content-Length: 15 packets_received jitter S->C: $\000{2 byte length}{"length" bytes data, w/RTP header S->C: $\000{2 byte length}{"length" bytes data, w/RTP header} C->S: RTSP/1.0 200 OK CSeq: 431 Content-Length: 46 Content-Type: text/parameters packets_received: 10 jitter: 0.3838 S->C: $\000{2 byte length}{"length" bytes data, w/RTP header} S->C: $\001{2 byte length}{"length" bytes RTCP packet} --001a11362f10854d16050a6f962d Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear Members,

This is my last and final= attempt to ensure I have clearly outlined my issues as I see them, I will = also attempt to address any confusion or 'hostility' or other such = issues with my posts to this list.

I initially wro= te to the ALL original authors of which only one replied stating "no t= ime was available to deal with the issue at present." at which point I= then wrote into the 'mmusic' group with an the same issue related = to Rtsp, this issue was what I have now filed as Errata 4199.

Absolutely no one responded = on the list and I assumed (possibly incorrectly) that I was either not sign= ed up correctly or there was another issue related to the transmission of t= he message to the group.

I proceeded to wait for a= response and in the mean time I also asked questions about RFC2435 which a= lso went unanswered.

There were 4 separate issues = so I filed separate Errata for each issue:


Re= spectively Errata 4094 - 4097.

When I filed those = Errata using the same process I started receiving emails which indicated my= responses were now going through to the list.

I a= lso had an issue with 3550, and specifically the one which I was responded = as a result of filling Errata 4192.


Those= are my only Errata at the current time.

On Errata= 4192:

Mr. Casner advised me of the following = on Dec 5 2014:

"Let me clarify.=C2=A0 When we wrote that sentence, we were = stating why this
f= ield was included.=C2=A0 It was included so that receivers would be able
to know the sender's average payload data rate over va= rious time
intervals by taking the value of this field f= rom two sender reports
and dividing by the difference in= time of the two sender reports.=C2=A0 The

receiver migh= t want to compare that result with the average of the
da= ta as received (perhaps with some losses)."

Given this example I responded with concerns due to t= he following:

1) Time= used for calculating inter-arrival jitter, transit and other such values t= ake into account the ABSOLUTE time of reference from when a packet was=C2= =A0received to when a packet was=C2=A0received.=C2=A0

Using such a time reference I am thus also using data which is not= part of the payload in my time reference point.

W= ithout values to indicate how much of each field was not related to payload= data (which a receiver would have to track on it's own) it would also = be impossible to estimate such information.

I also= indicated several scenarios which show that I may not increment any values= for the counter when using only csrc/extension and padding or any combinat= ion therein.

This is again both a security issue a= nd causes an invalid payload data rate to be calculated.=C2=A0
At this point it was the following was stated "Rtp has wo= rked for 18 years and even if this is correct would cause a protocol change= ..."

I accepted that response and indic= ated how I didn't really agree that it required a protocol change since= other such textual changes have and continue to be made to RFC3550.
<= div>
As part of my argument I stated a scenario where padding= should have been at the top of the payload with any other option fields an= d the fact that it was not CAN cause data loss and should require a protoco= l change where as something like I proposed would not.

=
That itself opened up a totally separate discussion which was deemed v= alid by at least two participants who advised I draft something because it = was more prestigious to draft rather then to file Errata.

It is not my intention to seek fame or profit for this work, I only= intend to either be corrected or to correct the standard.

I wrote in comments on the drafts which were published because of = two things:

1) Following the same thinking as give= n in response to my proposal =C2=A0which was "Rtp has worked for 18 ye= ars.." why are those new drafts needed? I went further to show that my= comments were more then just suggestive in the fact that there are several= ways one can achieve "keep alive" and "leap year insertion&= quot; as well as local synchronization also where it is no necessary. If th= ose changes are valid then why would my change be any less valid considerin= g it adds nothing new?

2) Ideas presented in the o= ne or two of drafts were limited in the sense they did not address addition= al security concerns which were then possible when introducing the related = content. Specifically the leap year draft doesn't state what happens if= a person appears to be stuck in the leap year instant and causes time to a= ppear to stand still to a receiver. Or if I am following a clock referenced= =C2=A0by another standard I should be aware of the details which validate = and invalidate such clock readings and would otherwise cause loss.

Since NTP already provides a time reference when can then = be used to provide intermedia synchronization, this is indicated by Mr.Schu= lzrinne=C2=A0here:


Where it also is ind= icated that there are issues when calculating jitter when the Timestamp rem= ains the same. (on the same page)


Given those not= ions and further the acknowledgement that no updated related to the Timesta= mp has since been issued I am curious of the following:

Why were existing standard tools such as feedback or the AVB RTP / RT= CP definitions not used when there is a specific profile and separate draft= for them?

Realistically asking those questions ma= y seem hostile so I digress, I really just want to address the original iss= ues I filled errata for rather then arguing;

At th= is point if someone can indicate to me how I can just correctly utilize the= senders octet count when extension, csrc, padding and now "keep alive= s" are in use I will also accept such an answer so long as the math ca= n be demonstrated correctly and retract my errata.

It would be also be a very good learning experience if someone would be wi= lling to indicate why it should not be done as I have suggested, after all = when I test these changes with legacy software I sometimes find they also s= eem to agree with my understanding of the equations given rather then the s= tandards so I am only attempting to resolve those differences.
If anything else is required to have my Erratta answered pleas= e let me know, at this point I don't care if it's rejected or scorn= ed or annoying, I would like to know HOW and WHY it breaks something when I= cannot seem to replicate anything but more positive results.

On Errata 4094 - 4097.

= I have filed those before any of the others and have had no responses relat= ing to their creation or correctness.

If we would = kindly address these items I would also appreciate it which are:
=
I have found an instance where the given code in the RFC did= not handle images with single quantization tables e.g. black and white ima= ges. I have submitted a correction for this.

I hav= e also showed that its possible to convey the exact sub sampling as indicat= ed in the image while allowing the existing 'Type' parameter to be = used.

I have shown larger images than the given ca= n be sent using a simple reversal of the FragmentOffset verses the actual o= ffset in the file.

I have again demonstrated these= changes can work with existing software depending how they are employed an= d the format needing transfer.
=C2=A0
On Errata 419= 9:

I have yet to receive a response for this even = though it has been replicated in the wild and in several different implemen= tations as well as Live 555 through VLC.


I had originally writt= en in about this issue many months ago but it seems for some reason neither= the Errata or any communication to the group in reference can be found.

I recently submitted this Errata again and hopefully= we can address the following issues as well:


=
I would like to begin first by correcting my Errata which contai= ns a typo:=C2=A0

*Please note the hexadecimal=
 octet 0x36 should not be included in any=20
part of a RTSP message, if present it should be replaced with binary=20
escaped sequence as defined in: <consensus>*.

Should read as follows:

*Please note =
the hexadecimal octet 0x24 should not be included in any=20
part of a RTSP message, if present it should be replaced with binary=20
escaped sequence as defined in: <consensus>*.

This can be visualized under the following circu= mstance:

   S->C: GET_=
PARAMETER rtsp://example.com/fizz=
le/foo RTSP/1.0
           CSeq: 431
           Content-Type: text/parameters
           Session: 12345678
           Content-Length: 15

           packets_received
           jitter
S->C: $\000{2 b=
yte length}{"length" bytes data, w/RTP header
 S->C: $\000{2 byte length}{&=
quot;length" bytes data, w/RTP header}
C->S: RTSP/1.0 200 OK CSeq: 431 Content-Length: 46 Content-Type: text/parameters packets_received: 10 jitter: 0.3838

    
     S->C: $\000{2 byte length}{"length" bytes da=
ta, w/RTP header}
     S->C: $\001{2 byte length}{"length" bytes  RTCP packet}


--001a11362f10854d16050a6f962d-- From nobody Wed Dec 17 13:09:48 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4EAB01A90B7 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 2014 13:09:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iKS7htxB29Se for ; Wed, 17 Dec 2014 13:09:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pa0-x232.google.com (mail-pa0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c03::232]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6EE6F1A9075 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 2014 13:09:37 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pa0-f50.google.com with SMTP id bj1so17252969pad.9 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 2014 13:09:36 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=miUMjza1BsmHtxrlkakF1/ZjQZYZGqUo776y2Ho4oS0=; b=pCClbmBNmPcl1gJU/E/wOvSkZK/z/isHuGiNjWXDkT88j3oXGRhe+3LPSNW6ckIWi+ RZcaB8Xm5kUhNCpf8K18umFlRgeC1iWclBS4Lo+e0pDyjmLyYKPeJK/lX7aB9vC4ekoS 8ZNk5bTZmSxr6Tr4O0Alv81tY3k9xWwijzpJMXQvzhBsUNilMvDPvXImbF+z0EVaAI+i brMp42zpaYOM31YASPWS9C3wUqxg+pznU20v7Mb4FYhDE2p6ppaJik+k7haW5POY8ykY 52dp9++E3a8xNIa72ojOyi59kXNfZbQAvKs6S8pGU1lgKkmoZKmrAI7vY4+OCdDvP2pb u67A== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.68.57.199 with SMTP id k7mr73225356pbq.25.1418850575486; Wed, 17 Dec 2014 13:09:35 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.70.117.99 with HTTP; Wed, 17 Dec 2014 13:09:35 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2014 16:09:35 -0500 Message-ID: From: Julius Friedman To: avt@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1137fa6e8a9535050a6fe464 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/avt/4UDMWOUWLElJ2tqjjtCDBAOjF14 Subject: Re: [AVTCORE] On the following Eratta X-BeenThere: avt@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2014 21:09:44 -0000 --001a1137fa6e8a9535050a6fe464 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 My previous email accidentally sent when formatting the response and I do apologize AGAIN for any inconvenience. In short I resume where I was explaining that during Interleaved RTSP Communication RTSP Responses may be interleaved with RTP data. The example shows that the presence of "$" in either the headers or in the body portion of the request would cause an invalid frame to be parsed as if it was an Rtp or Rtcp packet. This can also occur in HTTP Tunneled transport especially with Interleaved binary communication. I have posted on this issue here as well http://sourceforge.net/p/rtspspec/bugs/227/ Additionally, If I receive a Frame header which indicates 1436 more bytes are in the PDU and the MSS only encompasses 1300 bytes show should I proceed? How can one determine if the next data received is the start of the new PDU or the data from the last indicated PDU? What about if the frame indicates 28 bytes and there are 1464 bytes available? should a new ALF and PDU be parsed at offset 32 (4 + 28)? What if the remaining data is RTSP or does not consist of "$"? Since that may be a little hectic to understand my question is as follows: How can I reliably re-sync when framing is lost? - Scanning for '$' is problematic and allows for situations where I can create a specially crafted TCP Segment which contains a bunch of "$0FFRTSP" data which can then be used to overload the receiver or force data loss. I have included the original email to ensure that my response can appropriately be found if required: ---------------------- "Hello I am currently implementing Rtsp and Rtp in my project @ https://net7mma.codeplex.com I have a complete implementation of Rtsp as a Client and as a Server, the solution also can translate from Http variations of MJPEG and JPEG to (as well as create from existing files)RFC2435 JPEG and hopefully soon to MPEG / H264 etc. The interleaved support was the most interesting thing to implement because of invalid data in-between valid ALF framing e.g. the infamous "$" block. The standard does not say what to do about what should occur if ( < || >) length is received as indicated in the ALF (bytes 3 and 4 [2 and 3 from a 0 based index]) from the TCP socket. I have coped with this in the situation of < received by performing another read. In the situation of > I just assume another frame is present and re-parse the ALF from the indicated length + 4. There is also something like the possibility of length being corrupt or invalid and I think the standard should deal with that explicitly, possibly something like PMPP Encoding should be employed to ensure that all packets arrive, then the PMPP Header would be used as required for the channel ID and length information but perhaps that is too much to employ and I leave that decision up to you. Something also needs to definitely be included in the situation where RFC4751 is being employed, e.g. the first two bytes need to be removed this way the Rtsp layer is not indicating a length which would then start at the first 2 bytes of the 4571 framing which is exactly the same as the RFC4571 length fields. RTSP should also possibly identify a special byte which indicates the ALF is up or down stream, e.g. the reverse of 36 ('$'), but this would be incompatible with previous implementations, the original framing character while "cute" as '$' left no room for flagging additional bits by a later spec such as validity or multiplicity of frames inter alia, something Mr. Schulzrinne is not famous for I assure you. Re-guarding additional RFC's I think that something should also be indicated about support of non "Rtp" mechanisms. This would be an abstract definition which would allow the Describe request to be used on the root of a server and for a non SDP response type to be used which would allow for listing of media URI's which are available on the server as well as their Transport Type e.g. Rtp or Rtsp on demand (http) or something else such as RTMP or what have you. I can propose something simple but I don't want to step on any toes. This would allow for the Setup request phase to contain a non Rtp implementation details in the header and require that those who implement Rtsp would thus have a 'Transport' layer which would also make the handling of tunneled Http requests easier. This would also allow for translation of protocols such as RTMP where the RTMP protocol would then be used after the Play request and based off the Setup requests and optionally either in place of Rtp or in conjunction with Rtp among other protocols on a different channel. E.g. Rtp on channel 0, Rtcp on channel 1, and Rtmp on channel 3, possibly Http on channel 4. This would be essential for Mixers and Translators IMHO as a single RtspServer would then be able to attain multiple channels of information when required for whatever purpose. Something I see possible with this is servers synchronizing archived data with another server e.g. bulk transfers or a scenario where a single box is receiving data for multiple end users and streams and then taking the data and sending it out on it's own to different end points. If nothing else this would be a way to standardize the GET_PARAMETER implementation to include details of the playing media and when a root request was performed information as indicated above would be returned. I would also like something said about Video on Demand vs Rtp Transport if possible this way those who are just streaming a file "http" style will have definite ways to initiate pause and resume operations on a on demand video... E.g. When using a download on demand request which is multi-part response the server could be sending the client the requested video in chunks on the request socket while a new request comes in to pause that video on demand request... or skip certain portions or resume at a certain point. Last but not least something should be stated about time differences in relaying media e.g. when one server is relaying media to many clients from a single source there should be an indication in the Rtp-Transport header such as "ntptime=xyz" which indicates the ntp time of the media so that the server can use this timestamp to synchonrize all media and generate new timestamps as well and sequence numbers when relaying media, the Date header could also optionally be used. If you have any questions let me know as this email was written very hastily with little effort put into grammar. Thank you for your time, Sincerely, Julius Richard Friedman" ------------------------------ I apologize again for any inconvenience I have caused the committee hopefully I have rounded up everything in summary as to get the responses I require. Hopefully in this process I can both educate myself why my proposed changes were wrong and not make the same mistakes twice and if necessary retract any Errata as a result of my erroneous understanding. Thank you for your time in these matters. Sincerely, Julius Richard Friedman On Wed, Dec 17, 2014 at 3:47 PM, Julius Friedman wrote: > > Dear Members, > > This is my last and final attempt to ensure I have clearly outlined my > issues as I see them, I will also attempt to address any confusion or > 'hostility' or other such issues with my posts to this list. > > I initially wrote to the ALL original authors of which only one replied > stating "no time was available to deal with the issue at present." at which > point I then wrote into the 'mmusic' group with an the same issue related > to Rtsp, this issue was what I have now filed as Errata 4199. > > http://www.rfc-editor.org/errata_search.php?rfc=2435&eid=4199 > > Absolutely no one responded on the list and I assumed (possibly > incorrectly) that I was either not signed up correctly or there was another > issue related to the transmission of the message to the group. > > I proceeded to wait for a response and in the mean time I also asked > questions about RFC2435 which also went unanswered. > > There were 4 separate issues so I filed separate Errata for each issue: > > http://www.rfc-editor.org/errata_search.php?rfc=2435 > > Respectively Errata 4094 - 4097. > > When I filed those Errata using the same process I started receiving > emails which indicated my responses were now going through to the list. > > I also had an issue with 3550, and specifically the one which I was > responded as a result of filling Errata 4192. > > http://www.rfc-editor.org/errata_search.php?rfc=3550 > > Those are my only Errata at the current time. > > On Errata 4192: > > Mr. Casner advised me of the following on Dec 5 2014: > > "Let me clarify. When we wrote that sentence, we were stating why this > field was included. It was included so that receivers would be able > to know the sender's average payload data rate over various time > intervals by taking the value of this field from two sender reports > and dividing by the difference in time of the two sender reports. The > receiver might want to compare that result with the average of the > data as received (perhaps with some losses)." > > Given this example I responded with concerns due to the following: > > 1) Time used for calculating inter-arrival jitter, transit and other such > values take into account the ABSOLUTE time of reference from when a packet > was received to when a packet was received. > > Using such a time reference I am thus also using data which is not part of > the payload in my time reference point. > > Without values to indicate how much of each field was not related to > payload data (which a receiver would have to track on it's own) it would > also be impossible to estimate such information. > > I also indicated several scenarios which show that I may not increment any > values for the counter when using only csrc/extension and padding or any > combination therein. > > This is again both a security issue and causes an invalid payload data > rate to be calculated. > > At this point it was the following was stated "Rtp has worked for 18 years > and even if this is correct would cause a protocol change..." > > I accepted that response and indicated how I didn't really agree that it > required a protocol change since other such textual changes have and > continue to be made to RFC3550. > > As part of my argument I stated a scenario where padding should have been > at the top of the payload with any other option fields and the fact that it > was not CAN cause data loss and should require a protocol change where as > something like I proposed would not. > > That itself opened up a totally separate discussion which was deemed valid > by at least two participants who advised I draft something because it was > more prestigious to draft rather then to file Errata. > > It is not my intention to seek fame or profit for this work, I only intend > to either be corrected or to correct the standard. > > I wrote in comments on the drafts which were published because of two > things: > > 1) Following the same thinking as given in response to my proposal which > was "Rtp has worked for 18 years.." why are those new drafts needed? I went > further to show that my comments were more then just suggestive in the fact > that there are several ways one can achieve "keep alive" and "leap year > insertion" as well as local synchronization also where it is no necessary. > If those changes are valid then why would my change be any less valid > considering it adds nothing new? > > 2) Ideas presented in the one or two of drafts were limited in the sense > they did not address additional security concerns which were then possible > when introducing the related content. Specifically the leap year draft > doesn't state what happens if a person appears to be stuck in the leap year > instant and causes time to appear to stand still to a receiver. Or if I am > following a clock referenced by another standard I should be aware of the > details which validate and invalidate such clock readings and would > otherwise cause loss. > > Since NTP already provides a time reference when can then be used to > provide intermedia synchronization, this is indicated by > Mr.Schulzrinne here: > > http://www.cs.columbia.edu/~hgs/rtp/faq.html#sr-timestamp > > Where it also is indicated that there are issues when calculating jitter > when the Timestamp remains the same. (on the same page) > > http://www.cs.columbia.edu/~hgs/rtp/faq.html#jitter > > Given those notions and further the acknowledgement that no updated > related to the Timestamp has since been issued I am curious of the > following: > > Why were existing standard tools such as feedback or the AVB RTP / RTCP > definitions not used when there is a specific profile and separate draft > for them? > > Realistically asking those questions may seem hostile so I digress, I > really just want to address the original issues I filled errata for rather > then arguing; > > At this point if someone can indicate to me how I can just correctly > utilize the senders octet count when extension, csrc, padding and now "keep > alives" are in use I will also accept such an answer so long as the math > can be demonstrated correctly and retract my errata. > > It would be also be a very good learning experience if someone would be > willing to indicate why it should not be done as I have suggested, after > all when I test these changes with legacy software I sometimes find they > also seem to agree with my understanding of the equations given rather then > the standards so I am only attempting to resolve those differences. > > If anything else is required to have my Erratta answered please let me > know, at this point I don't care if it's rejected or scorned or annoying, I > would like to know HOW and WHY it breaks something when I cannot seem to > replicate anything but more positive results. > > > On Errata 4094 - 4097. > > I have filed those before any of the others and have had no responses > relating to their creation or correctness. > > If we would kindly address these items I would also appreciate it which > are: > > I have found an instance where the given code in the RFC did not handle > images with single quantization tables e.g. black and white images. I have > submitted a correction for this. > > I have also showed that its possible to convey the exact sub sampling as > indicated in the image while allowing the existing 'Type' parameter to be > used. > > I have shown larger images than the given can be sent using a simple > reversal of the FragmentOffset verses the actual offset in the file. > > I have again demonstrated these changes can work with existing software > depending how they are employed and the format needing transfer. > > On Errata 4199: > > I have yet to receive a response for this even though it has been > replicated in the wild and in several different implementations as well as > Live 555 through VLC. > > http://www.videolan.org/security/sa1202.html > > I had originally written in about this issue many months ago but it seems > for some reason neither the Errata or any communication to the group in > reference can be found. > > I recently submitted this Errata again and hopefully we can address the > following issues as well: > > > I would like to begin first by correcting my Errata which contains a typo: > > *Please note the hexadecimal octet 0x36 should not be included in any > part of a RTSP message, if present it should be replaced with binary > escaped sequence as defined in: *. > > > Should read as follows: > > *Please note the hexadecimal octet 0x24 should not be included in any > part of a RTSP message, if present it should be replaced with binary > escaped sequence as defined in: *. > > > This can be visualized under the following circumstance: > > > S->C: GET_PARAMETER rtsp://example.com/fizzle/foo RTSP/1.0 > CSeq: 431 > Content-Type: text/parameters > Session: 12345678 > Content-Length: 15 > > packets_received > jitter > > S->C: $\000{2 byte length}{"length" bytes data, w/RTP header > > S->C: $\000{2 byte length}{"length" bytes data, w/RTP header} > > C->S: RTSP/1.0 200 OK CSeq: 431 Content-Length: 46 Content-Type: > text/parameters packets_received: 10 jitter: 0.3838 > > > S->C: $\000{2 byte length}{"length" bytes data, w/RTP header} > S->C: $\001{2 byte length}{"length" bytes RTCP packet} > > > > --001a1137fa6e8a9535050a6fe464 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
My previous email accidentally sent when formatting the re= sponse and I do apologize AGAIN for any inconvenience.

I= n short I resume where I was explaining that during Interleaved RTSP Commun= ication RTSP Responses may be interleaved with RTP data.

The example shows that the presence of "$" in either the h= eaders or in the body portion of the request would cause an invalid frame t= o be parsed as if it was an Rtp or Rtcp packet.

Th= is can also occur in HTTP Tunneled transport especially with Interleaved bi= nary communication.

I have posted on this issue he= re as well=C2=A0htt= p://sourceforge.net/p/rtspspec/bugs/227/

Addit= ionally,

If I receive a Frame header which indicat= es 1436 more bytes are in the PDU and the MSS only encompasses 1300 bytes s= how should I proceed? How can one determine if the next data received is th= e start of the new PDU or the data from the last indicated PDU? What about = if the frame indicates 28 bytes and there are 1464 bytes available? should = a new ALF and PDU be parsed at offset 32 (4 + 28)? What if the remaining da= ta is RTSP or does not consist of "$"?

S= ince that may be a little hectic to understand my question is as follows:

How can I reliably re-sync when framing is lost?
- Scanning for '$' is problematic and allows for situations= where I can create a specially crafted TCP Segment which contains a bunch = of "$0FFRTSP" data which can then be used to overload the receive= r or force data loss.

I have included the original= email to ensure that my response can appropriately be found if required:

----------------------

&qu= ot;Hello I am currently implem= enting Rtsp and Rtp in my project @=C2=A0htt= ps://net7mma.codeplex.com

I have a complete= implementation of Rtsp as a Client and as a Server, the solution also can = translate from Http variations of MJPEG and JPEG to (as well as create from= existing files)RFC2435 JPEG and hopefully soon to MPEG / H264 etc.

The interleaved support was the most interesting thing= to implement because of invalid data in-between valid ALF framing e.g. the= infamous "$" block.

The standard doe= s not say what to do about what should occur if ( < || >) =C2=A0lengt= h is received as indicated in the ALF (bytes 3 and 4 [2 and 3 from a 0 base= d index]) from the TCP socket.

I have coped wit= h this in the situation of < received by performing another read.
<= div style=3D"font-size:12.8000001907349px">
In the situation of > I just assume another frame = is present and re-parse the ALF from the indicated length + 4.

There is also something like the possibility of length bein= g corrupt or invalid and I think the standard should deal with that explici= tly, possibly something like PMPP Encoding should be employed to ensure tha= t all packets arrive, then the PMPP Header would be used as required for th= e channel ID and length information but perhaps that is too much to employ = and I leave that decision up to you.

Something = also needs to definitely be included in the situation where RFC4751 is bein= g employed, e.g. the first two bytes need to be removed this way the Rtsp l= ayer is not indicating a length which would then start at the first 2 bytes= of the=C2=A04571 framing wh= ich is exactly the same as the RFC4571 length fields.

RTSP should also possibly id= entify a special byte which indicates the ALF is up or down stream, e.g. th= e reverse of 36 ('$'), but this would be incompatible with previous= implementations, the=C2=A0original framing character while "cu= te" as '$' left no room for flagging additional bits by a late= r spec such as validity or multiplicity of frames inter alia, something Mr.= =C2=A0Schulzrinne=C2=A0is not famous for I assure you.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0

Re-guarding additional=C2=A0RFC's = I think that something should also be indicated about support of non "= Rtp" mechanisms.

=
This would be an abstract= definition which would allow the Describe request to be used on the root o= f a server and for a non SDP response type to be used which would allow for= listing of media URI's which are available on the server as well as th= eir Transport Type e.g. Rtp or Rtsp on demand (http) or something else such= as RTMP or what have you.

I can propose someth= ing simple but I don't want to step on any toes.

This would allow for the Setup request phase to contain a non Rtp imp= lementation details in the header and require that those who implement Rtsp= would thus have a 'Transport' layer which would also make the hand= ling of tunneled Http requests easier.

This wou= ld also allow for translation of protocols such as RTMP where the RTMP prot= ocol would then be used after the Play request and based off the Setup requ= ests and optionally either in place of Rtp or in conjunction with Rtp among= other protocols on a different channel.

E.g. R= tp on channel 0, Rtcp on channel 1, and Rtmp on channel 3, possibly Http on= channel 4.

This would be essential for Mixers = and Translators IMHO as a single RtspServer would then be able to attain mu= ltiple channels of information when required for whatever purpose.

Something I see possible with this is servers synchroni= zing archived data with another server e.g. bulk transfers or a scenario wh= ere a single box is receiving data for multiple end users and streams and t= hen taking the data and sending it out on it's own to different end poi= nts.

If nothing else this would be a way to st= andardize the GET_PARAMETER implementation to include details of the playin= g media and when a root request was performed information as indicated abov= e would be returned.

<= /div>
I would also like somethin= g said about Video on Demand vs Rtp Transport if possible this way those wh= o are just streaming a file "http" style will have definite ways = to initiate pause and resume operations on a on demand video...

E.g. When using a download on demand request which is = multi-part response the server could be sending the client the requested vi= deo in chunks on the request socket while a new request comes in to pause t= hat video on demand request... or skip certain portions or resume at a cert= ain point.

Last but not least something should = be stated about time differences in relaying media e.g. when one server is = relaying media to many clients from a single source there should be an indi= cation in the Rtp-Transport header such as "ntptime=3Dxyz" which = indicates the ntp time of the media so that the server can use this timesta= mp to synchonrize all media and generate new timestamps as well and sequenc= e numbers when relaying media, the Date header could also optionally be use= d.

If you have any questions let me know as thi= s email was written very hastily with little effort put into grammar.
=

Thank you for your time,

Sincerely,
Julius Richard= Friedman"
----------= --------------------

<= /div>
I apologize again for any = inconvenience I have caused the committee hopefully I have rounded up every= thing in summary as to get the responses I require.

Hopefully in this process I can both educate myself why my proposed ch= anges were wrong and not make the same mistakes twice and if necessary retr= act any Errata as a result of my erroneous understanding.

Thank you for your time in these matters.

Sincerely,
Julius = Richard Friedman




On Wed, Dec 17, = 2014 at 3:47 PM, Julius Friedman <juliusfriedman@gmail.com><= /span> wrote:
Dear Members,<= div>
This is my last and final attempt to ensure I have clear= ly outlined my issues as I see them, I will also attempt to address any con= fusion or 'hostility' or other such issues with my posts to this li= st.

I initially wrote to the ALL original authors = of which only one replied stating "no time was available to deal with = the issue at present." at which point I then wrote into the 'mmusi= c' group with an the same issue related to Rtsp, this issue was what I = have now filed as Errata 4199.


Absolutely no one responded on the list a= nd I assumed (possibly incorrectly) that I was either not signed up correct= ly or there was another issue related to the transmission of the message to= the group.

I proceeded to wait for a response and= in the mean time I also asked questions about RFC2435 which also went unan= swered.

There were 4 separate issues so I filed se= parate Errata for each issue:


Respectively Errata 4094 - 4097.

When I filed t= hose Errata using the same process I started receiving emails which indicat= ed my responses were now going through to the list.

I also had an issue with 3550, and specifically the one which I was respo= nded as a result of filling Errata 4192.


Those are my only Errata at the current time.
<= br>
On Errata 4192:

Mr. Casner advis= ed me of the following on Dec 5 2014:

"Let me clarify.=C2=A0 When we wrote = that sentence, we were stating why this
field was included.=C2=A0 It was included so that rec= eivers would be able
to know the sender's average pa= yload data rate over various time
intervals by taking th= e value of this field from two sender reports
and dividi= ng by the difference in time of the two sender reports.=C2=A0 Thereceiver might want to compare that result with the average of th= e
data as received (perhaps with some losses)."

= Given this example I responded= with concerns due to the following:

1) Time used for calculating inter-arrival jitter, transit = and other such values take into account the ABSOLUTE time of reference from= when a packet was=C2=A0received to when a packet was=C2=A0received.=C2=A0<= /span>

Using such a time reference I am thus also us= ing data which is not part of the payload in my time reference point.
=

Without values to indicate how much of each field was n= ot related to payload data (which a receiver would have to track on it'= s own) it would also be impossible to estimate such information.
=
I also indicated several scenarios which show that I may not= increment any values for the counter when using only csrc/extension and pa= dding or any combination therein.

This is again bo= th a security issue and causes an invalid payload data rate to be calculate= d.=C2=A0

At this point it was the following was st= ated "Rtp has worked for 18 years and even if this is correct would ca= use a protocol change..."

I accepted th= at response and indicated how I didn't really agree that it required a = protocol change since other such textual changes have and continue to be ma= de to RFC3550.

As part of my argument I stated a s= cenario where padding should have been at the top of the payload with any o= ther option fields and the fact that it was not CAN cause data loss and sho= uld require a protocol change where as something like I proposed would not.=

That itself opened up a totally separate discussi= on which was deemed valid by at least two participants who advised I draft = something because it was more prestigious to draft rather then to file Erra= ta.

It is not my intention to seek fame or profit = for this work, I only intend to either be corrected or to correct the stand= ard.

I wrote in comments on the drafts which were = published because of two things:

1) Following the = same thinking as given in response to my proposal =C2=A0which was "Rtp= has worked for 18 years.." why are those new drafts needed? I went fu= rther to show that my comments were more then just suggestive in the fact t= hat there are several ways one can achieve "keep alive" and "= ;leap year insertion" as well as local synchronization also where it i= s no necessary. If those changes are valid then why would my change be any = less valid considering it adds nothing new?

2) Ide= as presented in the one or two of drafts were limited in the sense they did= not address additional security concerns which were then possible when int= roducing the related content. Specifically the leap year draft doesn't = state what happens if a person appears to be stuck in the leap year instant= and causes time to appear to stand still to a receiver. Or if I am followi= ng a clock referenced =C2=A0by another standard I should be aware of the de= tails which validate and invalidate such clock readings and would otherwise= cause loss.

Since NTP already provides a time ref= erence when can then be used to provide intermedia synchronization, this is= indicated by Mr.Schulzrinne=C2=A0here:

<= div>
Where it also is indicated that there are issues when ca= lculating jitter when the Timestamp remains the same. (on the same page)


Given those notions and further t= he acknowledgement that no updated related to the Timestamp has since been = issued I am curious of the following:

Why were exi= sting standard tools such as feedback or the AVB RTP / RTCP definitions not= used when there is a specific profile and separate draft for them?

Realistically asking those questions may seem hostile so = I digress, I really just want to address the original issues I filled errat= a for rather then arguing;

At this point if someon= e can indicate to me how I can just correctly utilize the senders octet cou= nt when extension, csrc, padding and now "keep alives" are in use= I will also accept such an answer so long as the math can be demonstrated = correctly and retract my errata.

It would be also = be a very good learning experience if someone would be willing to indicate = why it should not be done as I have suggested, after all when I test these = changes with legacy software I sometimes find they also seem to agree with = my understanding of the equations given rather then the standards so I am o= nly attempting to resolve those differences.

If an= ything else is required to have my Erratta answered please let me know, at = this point I don't care if it's rejected or scorned or annoying, I = would like to know HOW and WHY it breaks something when I cannot seem to re= plicate anything but more positive results.


On Errata 4094 - 4097.

I have filed those= before any of the others and have had no responses relating to their creat= ion or correctness.

If we would kindly address the= se items I would also appreciate it which are:

I h= ave found an instance where the given code in the RFC did not handle images= with single quantization tables e.g. black and white images. I have submit= ted a correction for this.

I have also showed that= its possible to convey the exact sub sampling as indicated in the image wh= ile allowing the existing 'Type' parameter to be used.
I have shown larger images than the given can be sent using a = simple reversal of the FragmentOffset verses the actual offset in the file.=

I have again demonstrated these changes can work = with existing software depending how they are employed and the format needi= ng transfer.
=C2=A0
On Errata 4199:

<= /div>
I have yet to receive a response for this even though it has been= replicated in the wild and in several different implementations as well as= Live 555 through VLC.


I had originally written= in about this issue many months ago but it seems for some reason neither t= he Errata or any communication to the group in reference can be found.

I recently submitted this Errata again and hopefully w= e can address the following issues as well:


I would like to begin first by correcting my Errata which contains= a typo:=C2=A0

*Please note the hexadecimal octet 0x36 s=
hould not be included in any=20
part of a RTSP message, if present it should be replaced with binary=20
escaped sequence as defined in: <consensus>*.

Should read as follows:

*Please note the hexadec=
imal octet 0x24 should not be included in any=20
part of a RTSP message, if present it should be replaced with binary=20
escaped sequence as defined in: <consensus>*.

This can be visualized under the following circumstance:

   S->C: GET_PARAMETER rtsp://example.com/fizzle/foo RTSP/1.0
           CSeq: 431
           Content-Type: text/parameters
           Session: 12345678
           Content-Length: 15

           packets_received
           jitter
S->C: $\000{2 b=
yte length}{"length" bytes data, w/RTP header
 S->C: $\000{2 byte length}{&=
quot;length" bytes data, w/RTP header}
C->S: RTSP/1.0 200 OK CSeq: 431 Content-Length: 46 Content-Type: text/parameters packets_received: 10 jitter: 0.3838

 =
   
     S-&g=
t;C: $\000{2 byte length}{"length" bytes data, w/RTP header}
     S->C: $\001{2 byte length}{"length" bytes  RTCP packet}


--001a1137fa6e8a9535050a6fe464-- From nobody Wed Dec 17 14:54:08 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DAD9B1A0183 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 2014 14:54:06 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.235 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.235 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1-vM3U6N8NW0 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 2014 14:54:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from resqmta-ch2-04v.sys.comcast.net (resqmta-ch2-04v.sys.comcast.net [IPv6:2001:558:fe21:29:69:252:207:36]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1AABE1A0127 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 2014 14:54:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from resomta-ch2-16v.sys.comcast.net ([69.252.207.112]) by resqmta-ch2-04v.sys.comcast.net with comcast id Umtx1p0042S2Q5R01mu3iv; Wed, 17 Dec 2014 22:54:03 +0000 Received: from hobgoblin.ariadne.com ([24.34.72.61]) by resomta-ch2-16v.sys.comcast.net with comcast id Umu21p00M1KKtkw01mu2ui; Wed, 17 Dec 2014 22:54:03 +0000 Received: from hobgoblin.ariadne.com (hobgoblin.ariadne.com [127.0.0.1]) by hobgoblin.ariadne.com (8.14.7/8.14.7) with ESMTP id sBHMs2Uc018323; Wed, 17 Dec 2014 17:54:02 -0500 Received: (from worley@localhost) by hobgoblin.ariadne.com (8.14.7/8.14.7/Submit) id sBHMs1Ml018319; Wed, 17 Dec 2014 17:54:01 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: hobgoblin.ariadne.com: worley set sender to worley@alum.mit.edu using -f From: worley@ariadne.com (Dale R. Worley) To: Julius Friedman In-Reply-To: (juliusfriedman@gmail.com) Sender: worley@ariadne.com (Dale R. Worley) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2014 17:54:01 -0500 Message-ID: <87sigdopkm.fsf@hobgoblin.ariadne.com> DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=comcast.net; s=q20140121; t=1418856843; bh=CZpnagDnMmjRTNqVwLIzTzs8Qu8N+4jas1aIw6f7xcg=; h=Received:Received:Received:Received:From:To:Subject:Date: Message-ID; b=KHccEALgwNQnvfbNWdoEKyoWeN51Cs364hy9+z24/QJzH7/f3T/XwjKFaPRp2a0Xd Fyh9TR7cL7YkZoORyQAYoCs2TErCOoqjF7dhyIri0K1tplHPnkdboFq4d6ipy8o93Z XbBol9ACqjK92A3Pab0r+XXJxSTwgfd5qofIhzeH2Wc6BXDZ1T+rON5wAFl5Zbu7lG hCeASPL1kO8YBLxhO9IH3Zd3vhpvvmBQtj5Bpb9ahgesoq5dNFwTXCGsS9HHx6ywXe 3wjiWNlyFGoi2MhwWqpv8RHh+1gFxbUbppVMyX56mmVACcV1Ieva3d/zanCriceFMA vIMi5FNG9443g== Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/avt/76GGAxeIEb1ofBAE95HEegdctxA Cc: avt@ietf.org Subject: Re: [AVTCORE] ***SPAM*** 5.977 (5) RE: Mail regarding RFC 7273 X-BeenThere: avt@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2014 22:54:07 -0000 Julius Friedman writes: > My position is unchanged. > > Its my goal to fix existing issues in the spec and well as simplify it > where possible. If you think there are problems in the operation of real systems, why don't you propose additional mechanisms that will solve the problems? No, you aren't going to change the definition of a mechanism whose definition is an RFC. It's just not going to happen; people already have implementations of the RFC in production. The way to achieve useful change in the IETF is to write an Internet-Draft explaining what the problem is and proposing suitable additional mechanisms. Then you discuss it on the mailing list, looking for people who agree with you that the problem exists and the mechanism will solve it. And of course, taking their feedback to heart. A very useful reference is RFC 4144, "How to Gain Prominence and Influence in Standards Organizations". https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc4144/ Also, please remember the core principles of the IETF: "All my speak." "Not all are listened to." If one annoys people, it is not a crime, but it removes the one path one has to influence: being listened to. Dale From nobody Fri Dec 19 15:14:26 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45F981AC3D0 for ; Fri, 19 Dec 2014 15:14:24 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_05=-0.5, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iluj8Xk7gyGN for ; Fri, 19 Dec 2014 15:14:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wg0-x231.google.com (mail-wg0-x231.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c00::231]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 489161ABC0F for ; Fri, 19 Dec 2014 15:14:22 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wg0-f49.google.com with SMTP id n12so2513131wgh.8 for ; Fri, 19 Dec 2014 15:14:21 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:mime-version:content-type :thread-index:content-language; bh=OhykfgBP1WDZ3cKfBucQh75WlShfDS+bnCZNOxiziGU=; b=ff5zmg7UhGy2D3/RtoVtocMyVju8cgn/EdRWjrs6n2lYc8MAjZN5y8mkxugTOCtK6J n9aG9ryYxJzWivbV8eWP9r3tw1xsQbkRXw7ne2nLDPi8VrNFgSVhBxWLsl0x2tiF7K9D OwMdS9Sbwcwc9PdkesyUMPghl0DU2ZYJV7swEO3kvdq5ONXYJYe4r+yQicht3BGB0S/u c7VSpxL/MpWi/TAo6lDLQDWxph3idWBKjwGnn5ch85W9cc6iIYy8ZG3YMPj0c5FTJeNX sig/O4z7qgFcenl8kni/r2rc0uSoOXD+v4T7kb8DvWk03J8Kx7gYSMCRuD6Ci+9JewgY X+OQ== X-Received: by 10.194.91.234 with SMTP id ch10mr19732271wjb.114.1419030861128; Fri, 19 Dec 2014 15:14:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from RoniE (bzq-79-182-183-87.red.bezeqint.net. [79.182.183.87]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id js5sm3983392wid.11.2014.12.19.15.14.19 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Fri, 19 Dec 2014 15:14:20 -0800 (PST) From: "Roni Even" To: Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2014 01:14:16 +0200 Message-ID: <057c01d01be1$844413f0$8ccc3bd0$@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_057D_01D01BF2.47CDA740" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AdAb4Vec3muEdc9ZRA6qwTPhKkmDeQ== Content-Language: en-us Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/avt/PE9hXwn7sH0OVL1S0VdIYZb5ao4 Cc: Magnus Westerlund Subject: Re: [AVTCORE] Call for adopting draft-singh-avtcore-mprtp-10 - conclusion X-BeenThere: avt@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2014 23:14:24 -0000 This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_057D_01D01BF2.47CDA740 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, There was support to adopt this document to address the milestone. The authors should submit the document as draft-ietf-avtcore-mprtp-00 Thanks Roni Even AVTcore co-chair From: Roni Even [mailto:ron.even.tlv@gmail.com] Sent: 15 November, 2014 5:03 AM To: avt@ietf.org Cc: Magnus Westerlund (magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com) Subject: Call for adopting draft-singh-avtcore-mprtp-10 Hi, This is a call to adopt draft-singh-avtcore-mprtp-10 to address the new milestone Nov 2015 - Submit Multipath RTP as experimental RFC There was already support to adopt it but this email is to verify the support Please provide any view to the list by November 25th Thanks Roni Even AVTcore co-chair ------=_NextPart_000_057D_01D01BF2.47CDA740 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi,

There was support to = adopt this document to address the milestone.

The authors should = submit the document as = draft-ietf-avtcore-mprtp-00

Thanks

Roni = Even

AVTcore co-chair

 

From:= = Roni Even [mailto:ron.even.tlv@gmail.com]
Sent: 15 November, = 2014 5:03 AM
To: avt@ietf.org
Cc: Magnus Westerlund = (magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com)
Subject: Call for adopting = draft-singh-avtcore-mprtp-10

 

Hi,

This is a =
call to adopt draft-singh-avtcore-mprtp-10 =
to address the new milestone

Nov 2015 - Submit Multipath RTP  as = experimental RFC

 

There was already = support to adopt it but this email is to verify the = support

 

Please provide = any view to the list by November 25th

 

 

Thanks

Roni Even =

AVTcore = co-chair

 

 

 

 

------=_NextPart_000_057D_01D01BF2.47CDA740-- From nobody Fri Dec 19 18:17:00 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D12721A8AA6 for ; Fri, 19 Dec 2014 18:16:58 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.012 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.012 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FrvI8MPp8nJ7 for ; Fri, 19 Dec 2014 18:16:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from dublin.packetizer.com (dublin.packetizer.com [75.101.130.125]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 23A5D1A3BA4 for ; Fri, 19 Dec 2014 18:16:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.20] (cpe-098-027-048-015.nc.res.rr.com [98.27.48.15]) (authenticated bits=0) by dublin.packetizer.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id sBK2GnCu009107 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 19 Dec 2014 21:16:50 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=packetizer.com; s=dublin; t=1419041810; bh=M1iKVB0M5pfCQD5/PjpZXSzhtx2bF5dXcsxr6oYsdG8=; h=From:To:Subject:Cc:Date:Message-Id:Reply-To:Mime-Version: Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=n0kJM854D+6vaANNeScsDTPhx5WfDjnHOmwkohw/7sGiw/myJ8JfIF9YMZ3YN6OjE 2HntTiu5HuQJm3/Lxc4WyzlXZ14Ofab/MflDVUguqjewSoJ4Gh4mdYZ9BhNwcJzc+z a6Vir7JBwudDZw7PAON89njjfSEcnV9xv5jsmSuA= From: "Paul E. Jones" To: "avt@ietf.org WG" Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2014 02:17:05 +0000 Message-Id: User-Agent: eM_Client/6.0.21034.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/avt/a_8H5IYZoGlqurU2DKnGb38xhlE Cc: marcph@getjive.com Subject: [AVTCORE] Comments on draft-petithuguenin-avtcore-rfc5764-mux-fixes X-BeenThere: avt@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: "Paul E. Jones" List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2014 02:16:59 -0000 AVT, While the issues raised in the rfc5764-mix-fixes draft are valid, I'm=20 curious if consideration has been given to address multiplexing more=20 generally? Years ago, if anyone suggested multiplexing STUN, DTLS,=20 TURN, along with RTP and RTCP, it wouldn't have been met with much=20 enthusiasm. Now, we are multiplexing everything over a single port. I=20 appreciate the reason, but it feel like this is a delicate balancing act= =20 and it imposes restrictions on existing protocols and will impose=20 restrictions on future protocols to allow this model to continue as-is. Since multiplexing over a single port is now considered legitimate, why=20 not allocate a code point (e.g., 0x04) to be one dedicated for=20 multiplexing? I'm not suggesting we change what is already defined, but= =20 rather to introduce a new code point explicitly intended to facilitate=20 multiplexing in such a way as to avoid having the delicate balancing act= =20 of ensuring that values do not conflict. Such a scheme could also be=20 used to allow for multiple instances of the same protocol (e.g.,=20 multiple DTLS connections) to be multiplexed over the same port. Taken=20 to an extreme, it might be possible to allow multiple RTP sessions to be= =20 multiplexed over the same port. (I'm not suggesting we go that far, but= =20 having that kind of flexibility would not hurt.) My thinking is that if the first octet is 0x04, the receiver will then=20 look at the following two octets to determine how to handle the packet. = =20 These two octets could be sub-divided into IANA-assigned protocol=20 identifiers and dynamically allocated values. Basically, we would have=20 this: =20 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | 0x04 | protocol_identifier | muxed data=20 follows ... =20 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ When the next protocol to be multiplexed is defined, we could statically= =20 allocate a protocol_identifier value for the protocol. We could also=20 define SDP syntax that would allow these values to by advertised so that= =20 protocols could be safely muxed even without a static allocation. So,=20 if there was a desire to have two WebRTC Data Channels, for example, one= =20 (or both) might be multiplexed using this scheme. Perhaps all packets=20 related to the first might be identified by 0x048001 and the other might= =20 be identified by 0x048002. You can imagine how the protocol_identifiers= =20 0x8001 and 0x8002 could be advertised in SDP easily enough. DTLS is=20 already used for two entirely different purposes (DTLS-SRTP and WebRTC=20 Data Channels), which forces a violation of RFC 5764 Section 5.1.1. For= =20 that and other reasons, I can see benefit in multiplexing DTLS-SRTP and=20 the WebRTC Data Channel (SCTP/DTLS) as two DTLS sessions. Has there been discussion on this or is there interest in this approach? Paul From nobody Sat Dec 20 00:54:55 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58A861A1BCC; Sat, 20 Dec 2014 00:54:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id L2K6-cWKmdRS; Sat, 20 Dec 2014 00:54:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 994271A079D; Sat, 20 Dec 2014 00:54:44 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: i-d-announce@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 5.9.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <20141220085444.8385.77417.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2014 00:54:44 -0800 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/avt/LpI4_kStwpdnk5hA4NCIWs0ixs8 Cc: avt@ietf.org Subject: [AVTCORE] I-D Action: draft-ietf-avtcore-mprtp-00.txt X-BeenThere: avt@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2014 08:54:46 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance Working Group of the IETF. Title : Multipath RTP (MPRTP) Authors : Varun Singh Teemu Karkkainen Joerg Ott Saba Ahsan Lars Eggert Filename : draft-ietf-avtcore-mprtp-00.txt Pages : 40 Date : 2014-12-19 Abstract: The Real-time Transport Protocol (RTP) is used to deliver real-time content and, along with the RTP Control Protocol (RTCP), forms the control channel between the sender and receiver. However, RTP and RTCP assume a single delivery path between the sender and receiver and make decisions based on the measured characteristics of this single path. Increasingly, endpoints are becoming multi-homed, which means that they are connected via multiple Internet paths. Network utilization can be improved when endpoints use multiple parallel paths for communication. The resulting increase in reliability and throughput can also enhance the user experience. This document extends the Real-time Transport Protocol (RTP) so that a single session can take advantage of the availability of multiple paths between two endpoints. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-avtcore-mprtp/ There's also a htmlized version available at: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-avtcore-mprtp-00 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Sat Dec 20 12:14:31 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3FB671A9022 for ; Sat, 20 Dec 2014 12:14:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -114.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-114.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id u3Trglpfnvlo for ; Sat, 20 Dec 2014 12:14:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from rcdn-iport-9.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-9.cisco.com [173.37.86.80]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 86D5B1A902F for ; Sat, 20 Dec 2014 12:14:20 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=753; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1419106461; x=1420316061; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:content-id: content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=fJOVEX0j2uCbRChWIcOEnn63Jj8kNohVRQ9xjojfkh8=; b=L4oFYrHot/zlqsNhr4sVFUfPoGAE4PkPNjwSiT1zY3rOk2tVjy7WksbS Cq3QzakYFd92H1M8yGH5cIuvHAxyo3JRvyzoP2h3vK+nAdUc+zgOCZ8Jz p5TYZUwzKPtWaU1FV5qJ0ieD7NA0Ldlx6dkmYdawG39kCH0b+gwoaSRzh w=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AgsFAGvXlVStJV2R/2dsb2JhbABbgmQigS7NLRYBAQEBAX2EEzpRAT5CJwSIPwGqQKUEAQEBAQYBAQEBAQEBG5MPgRMFjhGIcoENgmSNWiKDboI0fgEBAQ X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.07,614,1413244800"; d="scan'208";a="378515750" Received: from rcdn-core-9.cisco.com ([173.37.93.145]) by rcdn-iport-9.cisco.com with ESMTP; 20 Dec 2014 20:14:20 +0000 Received: from xhc-rcd-x14.cisco.com (xhc-rcd-x14.cisco.com [173.37.183.88]) by rcdn-core-9.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id sBKKEJr0011129 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL) for ; Sat, 20 Dec 2014 20:14:19 GMT Received: from xmb-aln-x02.cisco.com ([fe80::8c1c:7b85:56de:ffd1]) by xhc-rcd-x14.cisco.com ([173.37.183.88]) with mapi id 14.03.0195.001; Sat, 20 Dec 2014 14:14:19 -0600 From: "Cullen Jennings (fluffy)" To: "avt@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Comment on Thread-Index: AQHQHJGJoXr5KZ6AIk2cEftzZ2GYGg== Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2014 20:14:18 +0000 Message-ID: <58F300B9-27C6-499E-8343-1F79FED0FBB9@cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.20.249.164] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <46369C06833D314095609EA934453E35@emea.cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/avt/0WVrCMb6NZIc16saj-s1_NU_8-k Subject: [AVTCORE] Comment on X-BeenThere: avt@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2014 20:14:28 -0000 The current draft has=20 There are only a few STUN method codepoints currently allocated, but this is largely attributed to the fact that STUN did not see much deployment until the development of WebRTC.=20 This is just plain wrong. There is a huge amount of implementation and depl= oyment of STUN. This type of statement causes us problem when we are trying= to get others to actually use our protocols. Please remove this very soon = from the draft. Thanks PS - I think this draft gets one thing really wrong. The point of an IANA r= egistry is we would not need to decide how many code points were allocated = for STUN and how many for DTLS. Instead as they needed them they could get = them from the registry.=20 From nobody Sat Dec 20 13:52:51 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 080971A8035 for ; Sat, 20 Dec 2014 13:52:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -114.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-114.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vdOLv8lLpiVU for ; Sat, 20 Dec 2014 13:52:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from rcdn-iport-1.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-1.cisco.com [173.37.86.72]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1A20F1A90A6 for ; Sat, 20 Dec 2014 13:50:04 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=1129; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1419112205; x=1420321805; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:references:in-reply-to: content-id:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=XDMjXSMQW4gWaQnaQ5BqLiff4zTqIFbrdqC8kmpxRSQ=; b=j+S3fcb8R+lIbwHy0YpCOyxgsNkPDMwlX/PiAqZh5AMHb+g+2Ioib1cS dSm4vh+9H3psMxellfv1HALnshwN/2WbIq4IYAB9Tcos0h0p9FxlJK/MP qYL7FWKOJ7TXqP4FWi0BAm49kB+Eci819jXGbpSgr731rrV9gly/HQ7/f U=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AicFAOztlVStJA2H/2dsb2JhbABbgmQiUlgExh8KhXACgREWAQEBAQF9hAwBAQEDAQEBATdECwIBIB4QJwslAgQTiCQIAQzPEAEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBARMEj3mDFoETBY4RiHKBDYJkjVoig25vgUV+AQEB X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.07,615,1413244800"; d="scan'208";a="378519733" Received: from alln-core-2.cisco.com ([173.36.13.135]) by rcdn-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 20 Dec 2014 21:50:04 +0000 Received: from xhc-rcd-x11.cisco.com (xhc-rcd-x11.cisco.com [173.37.183.85]) by alln-core-2.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id sBKLo36q030351 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL) for ; Sat, 20 Dec 2014 21:50:03 GMT Received: from xmb-aln-x02.cisco.com ([fe80::8c1c:7b85:56de:ffd1]) by xhc-rcd-x11.cisco.com ([173.37.183.85]) with mapi id 14.03.0195.001; Sat, 20 Dec 2014 15:50:02 -0600 From: "Cullen Jennings (fluffy)" To: "avt@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Comment on draft-petithuguenin-avtcore-rfc5764-mux-fixes Thread-Index: AQHQHJ7owtHep1ZoR0inSyFeng+W6A== Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2014 21:50:01 +0000 Message-ID: <9AFBE90D-E252-467D-9DE4-F8B1D1F85A68@cisco.com> References: <58F300B9-27C6-499E-8343-1F79FED0FBB9@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <58F300B9-27C6-499E-8343-1F79FED0FBB9@cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.20.249.164] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/avt/schowVcCMTzvSjug5uvDliuc_nY Subject: [AVTCORE] Comment on draft-petithuguenin-avtcore-rfc5764-mux-fixes X-BeenThere: avt@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2014 21:52:41 -0000 My apologies - I mean the subject to include the correct daft name=20 > On Dec 20, 2014, at 1:14 PM, Cullen Jennings (fluffy) = wrote: >=20 >=20 > The current draft has=20 >=20 > There are only a few STUN method codepoints currently allocated, but > this is largely attributed to the fact that STUN did not see much > deployment until the development of WebRTC.=20 >=20 > This is just plain wrong. There is a huge amount of implementation and de= ployment of STUN. This type of statement causes us problem when we are tryi= ng to get others to actually use our protocols. Please remove this very soo= n from the draft. >=20 > Thanks >=20 >=20 > PS - I think this draft gets one thing really wrong. The point of an IANA= registry is we would not need to decide how many code points were allocate= d for STUN and how many for DTLS. Instead as they needed them they could ge= t them from the registry.=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance > avt@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avt >=20 From nobody Tue Dec 23 01:45:52 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51F5F1A8A47 for ; Tue, 23 Dec 2014 01:45:50 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Tj6NZNtVyYNq for ; Tue, 23 Dec 2014 01:45:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from haggis.mythic-beasts.com (haggis.mythic-beasts.com [IPv6:2a00:1098:0:86:1000:0:2:1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 600211A8A3A for ; Tue, 23 Dec 2014 01:45:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from [81.187.2.149] (port=48864 helo=[192.168.0.22]) by haggis.mythic-beasts.com with esmtpsa (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Y3M2E-0000M2-3J; Tue, 23 Dec 2014 09:45:46 +0000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.3 \(1878.6\)) From: Colin Perkins In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2014 09:45:38 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: To: "Paul E. Jones" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1878.6) X-BlackCat-Spam-Score: -28 X-Mythic-Debug: Threshold = On = Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/avt/5MtZGzGTM-z18DAG8dNMkj9HvtM Cc: marcph@getjive.com, "avt@ietf.org WG" Subject: Re: [AVTCORE] Comments on draft-petithuguenin-avtcore-rfc5764-mux-fixes X-BeenThere: avt@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2014 09:45:50 -0000 Paul, I agree that some sort of explicit demultiplexing shim would solve a lot = of problems, and would have addressed many of the signalling issues = WebRTC has exposed in this space. Our proposal was = draft-westerlund-avtcore-transport-multiplexing-07. The working group = didn=92t seem keen on the idea, however.=20 Colin On 20 Dec 2014, at 02:17, Paul E. Jones wrote: > AVT, >=20 > While the issues raised in the rfc5764-mix-fixes draft are valid, I'm = curious if consideration has been given to address multiplexing more = generally? Years ago, if anyone suggested multiplexing STUN, DTLS, = TURN, along with RTP and RTCP, it wouldn't have been met with much = enthusiasm. Now, we are multiplexing everything over a single port. I = appreciate the reason, but it feel like this is a delicate balancing act = and it imposes restrictions on existing protocols and will impose = restrictions on future protocols to allow this model to continue as-is. >=20 > Since multiplexing over a single port is now considered legitimate, = why not allocate a code point (e.g., 0x04) to be one dedicated for = multiplexing? I'm not suggesting we change what is already defined, but = rather to introduce a new code point explicitly intended to facilitate = multiplexing in such a way as to avoid having the delicate balancing act = of ensuring that values do not conflict. Such a scheme could also be = used to allow for multiple instances of the same protocol (e.g., = multiple DTLS connections) to be multiplexed over the same port. Taken = to an extreme, it might be possible to allow multiple RTP sessions to be = multiplexed over the same port. (I'm not suggesting we go that far, but = having that kind of flexibility would not hurt.) >=20 > My thinking is that if the first octet is 0x04, the receiver will then = look at the following two octets to determine how to handle the packet. = These two octets could be sub-divided into IANA-assigned protocol = identifiers and dynamically allocated values. Basically, we would have = this: >=20 > = +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > | 0x04 | protocol_identifier | muxed data = follows ... > = +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ >=20 > When the next protocol to be multiplexed is defined, we could = statically allocate a protocol_identifier value for the protocol. We = could also define SDP syntax that would allow these values to by = advertised so that protocols could be safely muxed even without a static = allocation. So, if there was a desire to have two WebRTC Data Channels, = for example, one (or both) might be multiplexed using this scheme. = Perhaps all packets related to the first might be identified by 0x048001 = and the other might be identified by 0x048002. You can imagine how the = protocol_identifiers 0x8001 and 0x8002 could be advertised in SDP easily = enough. DTLS is already used for two entirely different purposes = (DTLS-SRTP and WebRTC Data Channels), which forces a violation of RFC = 5764 Section 5.1.1. For that and other reasons, I can see benefit in = multiplexing DTLS-SRTP and the WebRTC Data Channel (SCTP/DTLS) as two = DTLS sessions. >=20 > Has there been discussion on this or is there interest in this = approach? >=20 > Paul >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance > avt@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/avt --=20 Colin Perkins https://csperkins.org/ From nobody Sat Dec 27 02:10:33 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18FB61AD4BF for ; Sat, 27 Dec 2014 02:10:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 2.854 X-Spam-Level: ** X-Spam-Status: No, score=2.854 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FRT_BELOW2=2.154, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id R6tClLUj66St for ; Sat, 27 Dec 2014 02:10:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wi0-x231.google.com (mail-wi0-x231.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c05::231]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9C5A41AD4B9 for ; Sat, 27 Dec 2014 02:10:28 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wi0-f177.google.com with SMTP id l15so18443026wiw.10 for ; Sat, 27 Dec 2014 02:10:27 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:mime-version:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:thread-index:content-language; bh=BMyhRHZn/KyH7vsRAr7QBT2YPb9c9wOOaWaTRg0yvwA=; b=gV+qbfDYCSph6AC2eLdja2RgGRA8rZEyI+WY07ViknCrrXbm/1jrt8HFP76/z8XYax jIg5pt0GZ56OnqWFkXeq6qAsEP1/Oux7tbGagZ051LJbgTqk9tzGZLC4QueDRTJ8iLNz qSSG4Z6RegPRz5tz20xcjFGxDj2tdYlmM2we0xbpSe+feymkfendqkil/GoZcdKxBQbp BoJpPqh8fg500VKgZkTanhI3P7hc3GC/uyEwhWWwpUOgGlxOtS3+d9sS5k+G3ntx/faC loc+Ih9YeelL81vm+lUSOiJBMyaw21oiPrOIc/Mn0JlgRK4SBmh8dfm2IPyJ/yH/TxtX 1WuQ== X-Received: by 10.194.191.227 with SMTP id hb3mr90812807wjc.79.1419675027305; Sat, 27 Dec 2014 02:10:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from RoniE (bzq-79-178-183-48.red.bezeqint.net. [79.178.183.48]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id ep9sm31273609wid.3.2014.12.27.02.10.25 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Sat, 27 Dec 2014 02:10:26 -0800 (PST) From: "Roni Even" To: Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2014 12:10:21 +0200 Message-ID: <0ad601d021bd$5466e770$fd34b650$@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AdAhuOP88Q3h3n2pQ+2/2FCJE86Quw== Content-Language: en-us Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/avt/_7WpYTDDPit_VtgXfoe2gBwOPFE Subject: [AVTCORE] FW: Stephen Farrell's Discuss on draft-ietf-avtcore-srtp-aes-gcm-14: (with DISCUSS) - CCM as MTI? X-BeenThere: avt@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2014 10:10:32 -0000 Hi, The document has been in IESG review and there is an open discuss about the need for CCM as MTI. Since this has not been discussed on the AVTcore mailing list we have only response from David McGrew who is one of the authors. The discuss thread is given bellow The open question is if we want to keep CCM as MTI, make CCM optional or remove it from the document. I will appreciate any opinion so we can decide on way forward BTW; the original discuss is also https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-avtcore-srtp-aes-gcm/ballot/ but the issue to address is the need for CCM? Thanks Roni Even Hi Kevin, Following your format: 1a) I could buy both 128 and 256 being defined 1b) AFAIK CCM is in other protocols mainly due to IEEE h/w that can only do CCM, if that doesn't apply here (and why would it?) then I think GCM only should work 1c) goes away if you ditch CCM:-) 2) As per above, ditch CCM and its all easy:-) So - do we have real reasons to need CCM for this? CCM is preferable when short authentication tags are used, because it is less vulnerable to repeat-forgery attacks. If I remember right, I'm the person that put CCM there, and that's why. My experience with SRTP users makes me think that some will go for the shortest tag possible, and we should avoid security issues (and even the perception of security issues). So my question is whether all the options introduced as a direct result vs. that "less vulnerable" difference is really a good trade off if the complexity means that a bunch of folks won't use any of this. I think it is worthwhile to keep those definitions. The additional implementation work for the longer CCM tags is not much (assuming that we use CCM for a short tag). Do we have anyone who would scream if CCM were taken out for example? If not, isn't that, and the fact that CCM could be added later if really needed, indicative that taking it out now would be better? Another fair question to ask is: do we have anyone saying "I won't implement this specification unless CCM is removed"? Is that really as good a question? Isn't taking things out until no more can be taken out a better design principle? Granted, my question isn't really based on any technical argument. I asked it in response to your comment "if the complexity means that a bunch of folks won't use any of this". I had not heard anyone object to the complexity of including CCM in SRTP, so I was genuinely wondering. It is important that we don't dismiss the effort required to have CCM "added later"; That's outweighed significantly by implementer effort, I think you misunderstand my meaning here. In any case, if CCM were listed as optional, that would impose no cost implementers who didn't want CCM, while retaining the normative definition. and much moreso with CC/FIPS eval. Sorry, I don't understand about the CC/FIPS issue. Maybe I missed something, it is not a big deal to me. look how much time and effort has gone into the current draft. If people are really against having CCM being mandatory to implement, then CCM could be described as "optional" or something like that. But there is a lot of value in retaining the normative definitions as they have been crafted. To answer your question: I don't know anyone who would scream if CCM was taken out, except that there are people that want 8 byte authentication, and other people that think GCM should never be used for 8 byte authentication. Do we have list traffic to that effect? Be interested in pointers if so. On the need for short tags: SRTP currently allows four-byte HMAC authentication, and many people using that length will not want to move to eight, much less 16. There was discussion on the AVT list in the year before RFC 3711 was published. I know at least one person who will use the shortest tag length that the SRTP standard allows. I bet that asking on the AVTCORE list would reveal people who favor minimal overhead, who care most about VoIP, and VoIP over wireless. On the inapplicability of GCM for short authentication tags: see for instance Procter and Cid "On Weak Keys and Forgery Attacks against Polynomial-based MAC Schemes". If bet that asking on the CFRG list would get at least one person who would say that GCM should not be used with 8-byte tags. David Meanwhile, I'll think on it some more - I don't like the added options, but if I'm alone in that, then I'll likely get out of the way. As of now, I'm not sure if I'm alone in that or not. On 29/10/14 20:41, Igoe, Kevin M. wrote: On 20 October Stephen Farrell wrote: Before I move to a yes ballot, I want to chat about two things... (1)There are perhaps too many choices being offered here to be useful. It is very possible so much choice can harm interop and hence security. a) Do we *need* the 256 bit key options now? b) Is CCM really *needed* here? (Surprised the IEEE or h/w argument applies tbh) c) And why so many auth. tag lengths? Who really *needs* all of those? The DISCUSS point here is to validate that all of those options really *need* (as opposed to can) be defined, which may have been done already or may (and we have seen this) simply be a case of defining everything in the hope that something gets used. That can cause potential harm to interop. if different coders pick up different options. And the "but the USG will use all of these" is not IMO a sufficiently good argument for defining all of them - we also have experience with PKI that adding every option that the most complex deployments may want is not the recipe for success (e.g. with enrolment protocols). (2) Unless discuss point (1) results in there being only one remaining option, (which I doubt:-), which of the options specified here are MTI, and if you argue that that needs to be done elsewhere, then where will that be done? (We already had a major extended discussion about SRTP MTI things in general.) I would suggest that saying something like "128 bit GCM with a tag length of 16 MUST be implemented by any general purpose implementation of this specification" or something similar. 1.a (key sizes): Quoting chapter and verse, the NSA Mobility Capability Package, which can be found at https://www.nsa.gov/ia/_files/Mobility_Capability_Pkg_Vers_2_0.pdf, lays out a requirement for a Suite B compliant implementation of SRTP. You'll be shocked to hear that my primary goal is supporting that requirement. The corresponding Mobile Fundamentals Protection Profile: https://www.niap-ccevs.org/pp/pp_md_v2.0.pdf contains the requirement for 256-bit key sizes after September 2015. So basically, both 128 bits (for the typical user) and 256 bits (for the truly paranoid user) are either being used now or will be used in the near future. 1.b. (Both GCM and CCM) You can probably tell from the title of the I-D what my personal preference is on this issue. But I haven't been appointed crypto czar, and in other protocols people I consider to be rational professionals have expressed a preference for CCM over GCM. Also, as mentioned below, only CCM can support the shortest allowable tag size (8 bytes). 1.c. (tag sizes) We can't have a "one size fits all" solution for SRTP due to the inherent conflict between latency and security. I put in a table in section 14.2 (which I'm certain is a paragon of clarity) laying out the various options. The level or risk (probability of a compromise) is very much dependent upon the application - some times the authentication is protecting a service of little value but one where even a single byte of additional data has a measurable impact, and sometimes the service being protected is of extraordinary value and the cost of a few more bytes of data [ales in comparison. byte of data impacts your performance. I believe the spectrum of tag size we support is needed to give the system integrator the flexibility needed to met their requirements. [ Note: the shortest tag size, 8 bytes, is only available with CCM]. 2. Default Mandatory to Implement Configuration We have four, one for CCM-126, one for CCM-256, one for GCM-128 and one for GCM-256. Yes I know, 4 != 1, but its close! ----------------+-------------------------------------------------- Kevin M. Igoe | "We can't solve problems by using the same kind kmigoe@nsa.gov | of thinking we used when we created them." | - Albert Einstein - ----------------+-------------------------------------------------- -----Original Message----- From: Stephen Farrell [mailto:stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie] Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2014 8:28 AM To: The IESG Cc: avtcore-chairs@tools.ietf.org; draft-ietf-avtcore-srtp-aes-gcm@tools.ietf.org Subject: Stephen Farrell's Discuss on draft-ietf-avtcore-srtp-aes-gcm-14: (with DISCUSS) Stephen Farrell has entered the following ballot position for draft-ietf-avtcore-srtp-aes-gcm-14: Discuss When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) Please refer to http://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-avtcore-srtp-aes-gcm/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- DISCUSS: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Before I move to a yes ballot, I want to chat about two things... (1) There are perhaps too many choices being offered here to be useful. It is very possible so much choice can harm interop and hence security. Do we *need* the 256 bit key options now? Is CCM really *needed* here? (Surprised the IEEE or h/w argument applies tbh) And why so many auth. tag lengths? Who really *needs* all of those? The DISCUSS point here is to validate that all of those options really *need* (as opposed to can) be defined, which may have been done already or may (and we have seen this) simply be a case of defining everything in the hope that something gets used. That can cause potential harm to interop. if different coders pick up different options. And the "but the USG will use all of these" is not IMO a sufficiently good argument for defining all of them - we also have experience with PKI that adding every option that the most complex deployments may want is not the recipe for success (e.g. with enrolment protocols). (2) Unless discuss point (1) results in there being only one remaining option, (which I doubt:-), which of the options specified here are MTI, and if you argue that that needs to be done elsewhere, then where will that be done? (We already had a major extended discussion about SRTP MTI things in general.) I would suggest that saying something like "128 bit GCM with a tag length of 16 MUST be implemented by any general purpose implementation of this specification" or something similar. Paging and Bottom Toolbar Previous Item Next Item Connected to Microsoft Exchange From nobody Sat Dec 27 21:24:24 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9CEF51ACE9D; Sat, 27 Dec 2014 21:24:20 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_20=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GkxlbTcMqTLt; Sat, 27 Dec 2014 21:24:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pd0-x22c.google.com (mail-pd0-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c02::22c]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CE6F11A90BA; Sat, 27 Dec 2014 21:24:18 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pd0-f172.google.com with SMTP id y13so15178216pdi.17; Sat, 27 Dec 2014 21:24:18 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=KvlbBvufcLLvvSX4iTl47dUcOgP18DCuPoXfLLHidPU=; b=JS7XF1UZH+dFZZlT4IVkF6Md8HJ97ltJ414Oza0o+upiNGoV5F9bwHiew1tYHkJd/d ioNC1Kvt+KI5wrT+O8W0IlLES7CX0vcu4S8RpxXVeuPqz0MD4j2egMK0e4/vsKioXbEf wF7HnktHhfIEIhYdy+BIdeCSg1y3P8ZvO8hhLsiWnzwYh/jB6Usn0yG8ki6N2S9omf3l GWsGiihDNhE4BhcB9GBdR3AZxJJCdNQl08u0etwvcj5r1QILFjtW86ssmUyn4PKw0+x3 fhoYDgloFmcfTNT1JQZLvB+acoQ50fljNzbvvdU65XGzGCeiiqowQufIqfRM3ZZHrakg nodg== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.70.22.227 with SMTP id h3mr80954255pdf.160.1419744258051; Sat, 27 Dec 2014 21:24:18 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.70.117.99 with HTTP; Sat, 27 Dec 2014 21:24:18 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.70.117.99 with HTTP; Sat, 27 Dec 2014 21:24:18 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2014 00:24:18 -0500 Message-ID: From: Julius Friedman To: avt@ietf.org, mmusic@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b6da18a2c5322050b3ff8e7 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/avt/Z3DVY_N0SHm7p9A0JjnS0pcAWR8 Subject: [AVTCORE] Question X-BeenThere: avt@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2014 05:24:20 -0000 --047d7b6da18a2c5322050b3ff8e7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 I hope everyone had a great holiday! I also hope the New Year is also as splendid for all of the members of the IETF as it has ever been. I am sorry to 'bother' again however while waiting for my responses on my previous summary email 'On the following Errata' I ran across something I had a question on which may need to be addressed further. Rfc 2326 explicitly states that seeking can be disabled by not including the end information in the range header. What if I want to have the end but I don't want to allow seeking? E.g. my clip is 10 minutes and I have already been playing for 3 and there are 7 remaining; why can't I convey that and not allow seeking? Obviously I can just return a BadRequest when a seek is performed or just an OKAY to pretend like it's honored; but how can I convey in a standards compliant manner that the stream is not seekable BEFORE the client attempts the seek operation when also indicating the current and end times of the media in question? Thanks in advance and best wishes again! Sincerely, Julius Friedman --047d7b6da18a2c5322050b3ff8e7 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I hope everyone had a great holiday!

I also hope the New Year is also as splendid for all of the = members of the IETF as it has ever been.

I am sorry to 'bother' again however while waiting f= or my responses on my previous summary email 'On the following Errata&#= 39; I ran across something I had a question on which may need to be address= ed further.

Rfc 2326 explicitly states that seeking can be disabled by n= ot including the end information in the range header.

What if I want to have the end but I don't want to allow= seeking?

E.g. my clip is 10 minutes and I have already been playing f= or 3 and there are 7 remaining; why can't I convey that and not allow s= eeking?

Obviously I can just return a BadRequest when a seek is perf= ormed or just an OKAY to pretend like it's honored; but how can I conve= y in a standards compliant manner that the stream is not seekable BEFORE th= e client attempts the seek operation when also indicating the current and e= nd times of the media in question?

Thanks in advance and best wishes again!

Sincerely,
Julius Friedman

--047d7b6da18a2c5322050b3ff8e7-- From nobody Sun Dec 28 16:30:30 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 670761AC3D5 for ; Sun, 28 Dec 2014 16:30:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.664 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.664 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_40=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9bFMODrc_yni for ; Sun, 28 Dec 2014 16:30:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from resqmta-ch2-01v.sys.comcast.net (resqmta-ch2-01v.sys.comcast.net [IPv6:2001:558:fe21:29:69:252:207:33]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E59A01AC3C0 for ; Sun, 28 Dec 2014 16:30:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from resomta-ch2-15v.sys.comcast.net ([69.252.207.111]) by resqmta-ch2-01v.sys.comcast.net with comcast id ZCWG1p0022Qkjl901CWTzt; Mon, 29 Dec 2014 00:30:27 +0000 Received: from hobgoblin.ariadne.com ([173.75.213.57]) by resomta-ch2-15v.sys.comcast.net with comcast id ZCTw1p00N1Es2At01CU2b7; Mon, 29 Dec 2014 00:28:22 +0000 Received: from hobgoblin.ariadne.com (hobgoblin.ariadne.com [127.0.0.1]) by hobgoblin.ariadne.com (8.14.7/8.14.7) with ESMTP id sBT0SJ3O026123; Sun, 28 Dec 2014 19:28:19 -0500 Received: (from worley@localhost) by hobgoblin.ariadne.com (8.14.7/8.14.7/Submit) id sBT0SII8026120; Sun, 28 Dec 2014 19:28:18 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: hobgoblin.ariadne.com: worley set sender to worley@alum.mit.edu using -f From: worley@ariadne.com (Dale R. Worley) To: Julius Friedman In-Reply-To: (juliusfriedman@gmail.com) Sender: worley@ariadne.com (Dale R. Worley) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2014 19:28:18 -0500 Message-ID: <874msfcna5.fsf@hobgoblin.ariadne.com> DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=comcast.net; s=q20140121; t=1419813027; bh=6ayPN+7fABe5J/tnd92g3UQxDYojIiQuLNTuU58cSEo=; h=Received:Received:Received:Received:From:To:Subject:Date: Message-ID; b=QouXrt9sN6YbrBjcxfVPupq6vR0+quoPOZdJcA2oNfidAeVw/yo+JAzAwHzYI+uBz yXMa94WlwT0RWtryBmSfNtl+MzGXVDma3ufaXiDb8FKq64kDaSFp1Pxbhzt67F4eRv J5JQ2nuO0OlyeGdvUHbrHq4r8uDb0jw0ic9ffAkZYJpkKo2Fot9C4yjdeJWtlMSoyv Sm05VxK6S0JKd/0pfsHJ7urUwL8Th6ttYL96pboOPOFVCNnGAHxuOK5Dp+Dy7WdO4c ZmoBsJChXhdMmN1OWFVAeO57zvB2f+R9IRxjxJwkTVex7yOijlmjwWwnIw9Z+es8D0 0eKVyVsoIB+ng== Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/avt/vewyVmsnldX6nZdWHz1a5nSHdoY Cc: avt@ietf.org, mmusic@ietf.org Subject: Re: [AVTCORE] Question X-BeenThere: avt@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2014 00:30:29 -0000 Julius Friedman writes: > Rfc 2326 explicitly states that seeking can be disabled by not including > the end information in the range header. > > What if I want to have the end but I don't want to allow seeking? > > E.g. my clip is 10 minutes and I have already been playing for 3 and there > are 7 remaining; why can't I convey that and not allow seeking? I'm no expert in RTSP, but reading the RFC, it appears that the server indicates if seeking is allowed by the inclusion of the end-time: D.2.1 Basic Playback Client implementations may use the presence of length information to determine if the clip is seekable, and visibly disable seeking features for clips for which the length information is unavailable. Exactly why the server cannot indicate the total media length without implicitly stating the media is seekable, I don't know. Perhaps it's because any such media is theoretically seekable, since it must already be instantiated as a stored data object. Or perhaps it is because if seeking is not implemented, the user interface is expected to not display the "slider bar", and so there is no way to tell the user how much time remains in the media: Client implementations may use the presence of length information to determine if the clip is seekable, and visibly disable seeking features for clips for which the length information is unavailable. A common use of the presentation length is to implement a "slider bar" which serves as both a progress indicator and a timeline positioning tool. Perhaps referring to the mailing list discussion for this RFC would reveal the answer. In any case, why would we want to prevent seeking on a stored media object? I can see why if the media is an un-stored media stream, but in that case, the software likely doesn't know the total length that the media will have. Dale From nobody Sun Dec 28 16:43:52 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE0041AC3D5; Sun, 28 Dec 2014 16:43:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0aqdxsON2p9q; Sun, 28 Dec 2014 16:43:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pa0-x234.google.com (mail-pa0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c03::234]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4D58A1AC3C5; Sun, 28 Dec 2014 16:43:43 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pa0-f52.google.com with SMTP id eu11so16377710pac.11; Sun, 28 Dec 2014 16:43:42 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=yJ3Ux3xWmBHCMqxTpFNsG2GNC8fUeinpo1yeQOg16Ag=; b=Vc3lHPP/lFDTK9fLW8TQHgOvzPuvSuOS4xtv35nE1wsduu5ef0plbyRzJAT73SINio WZQ9DJ78CwlcFHu3Kh7rqTxwuXAavImVG+6fJ/U2ruWNnW2YIuo/EVudqHMpDk/qmYj6 EP5ncjWfd8dzH43xBYQfBo1fPE0+O16oG2Nj/SyhW1kJrOCWNtINOoHzwzlDnQXfHPLZ Q05/5BdYpSdIBNee3WC1NIPpowgJAdWGjbI5lGarO2/J8MKkG+bJNwN148TiKyY+biEu wPoFMUNKfbucu2a/7Ah3FXKylnsklLiNceoCIyT2S23DcFSXcLaKRifAeZ0tXFclKeV8 5vtQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.70.140.130 with SMTP id rg2mr86563969pdb.49.1419813822521; Sun, 28 Dec 2014 16:43:42 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.70.117.99 with HTTP; Sun, 28 Dec 2014 16:43:42 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <874msfcna5.fsf@hobgoblin.ariadne.com> References: <874msfcna5.fsf@hobgoblin.ariadne.com> Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2014 19:43:42 -0500 Message-ID: From: Julius Friedman To: "Dale R. Worley" , avt@ietf.org, mmusic@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1134c7c889e8cd050b502aeb Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/avt/HqF2Hauomuroo6FMOw28rHoqDpY Subject: Re: [AVTCORE] Question X-BeenThere: avt@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2014 00:43:46 -0000 --001a1134c7c889e8cd050b502aeb Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Hello Dale, (et al) I would like to address your response: "In any case, why would we want to prevent seeking on a stored media object? I can see why if the media is an un-stored media stream, but in that case, the software likely doesn't know the total length that the media will have." I will justify how "likely" this is as follows: 1) A Live 10 minute `media` which has been playing for 3 minutes, leaving me 7 minutes in play but unable to seek. a) If the stream was stored or recorded this obviously wouldn't be an issue 2) I have a server which requires authorization to seek but not to play. 3) I am a client and I have started playing and 'PAUSE' is not supported 4) I am a server re-streaming from a server where "Range" is not supported "Perhaps referring to the mailing list discussion for this RFC would reveal the answer." Which mailing list is that? 'mmusic' they have also been addressed, several times. I never get a response from them. In any other case I hope all is well and that I haven't been marked as spam or WORSE that there is something wrong with the list and my messages are just not being received. Anyway , thank you for your prompt response! Sincerely, Julius On Sun, Dec 28, 2014 at 7:28 PM, Dale R. Worley wrote: > Julius Friedman writes: > > Rfc 2326 explicitly states that seeking can be disabled by not including > > the end information in the range header. > > > > What if I want to have the end but I don't want to allow seeking? > > > > E.g. my clip is 10 minutes and I have already been playing for 3 and > there > > are 7 remaining; why can't I convey that and not allow seeking? > > I'm no expert in RTSP, but reading the RFC, it appears that the server > indicates if seeking is allowed by the inclusion of the end-time: > > D.2.1 Basic Playback > > Client implementations may use the presence of length information > to determine if the clip is seekable, and visibly disable seeking > features for clips for which the length information is unavailable. > > Exactly why the server cannot indicate the total media length without > implicitly stating the media is seekable, I don't know. Perhaps it's > because any such media is theoretically seekable, since it must already > be instantiated as a stored data object. Or perhaps it is because if > seeking is not implemented, the user interface is expected to not > display the "slider bar", and so there is no way to tell the user how > much time remains in the media: > > Client implementations may use the presence of length information > to determine if the clip is seekable, and visibly disable seeking > features for clips for which the length information is unavailable. > A common use of the presentation length is to implement a "slider > bar" which serves as both a progress indicator and a timeline > positioning tool. > > Perhaps referring to the mailing list discussion for this RFC would > reveal the answer. > > In any case, why would we want to prevent seeking on a stored media > object? I can see why if the media is an un-stored media stream, but in > that case, the software likely doesn't know the total length that the > media will have. > > Dale > --001a1134c7c889e8cd050b502aeb Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello Dale, (et al)

I would = like to address your response:

"In any case, why would we want to prevent seekin= g on a stored media
object?=C2=A0 I can see why if the m= edia is an un-stored media stream, but in
that case, the= software likely doesn't know the total length that the
media will have."

= I will justify how "likely" this is as follows:
<= div>
1) A Live 10 minute `media` which = has been playing for 3 minutes, leaving me 7 minutes in play but unable to = seek.
=C2=A0 = =C2=A0a) If the stream was stored or=C2=A0recorded=C2=A0this=C2=A0obviously= =C2=A0wouldn't be an issue

2) I have a server which requires authorization to seek but not t= o play.

3)=C2=A0I am = a client and I have started playing and 'PAUSE' is not supported

4)=C2=A0I am a server re-streaming from a serv= er where "Range" is not supported

"Perhaps referring to the mailing list discussi= on for this RFC would
reveal the answer."

<= div>Which mailing list is that= ? 'mmusic' they have also been addressed, several times. I never ge= t a response from them.

In any other case I hope all is well and that I haven't been marked = as spam or WORSE that there is something wrong with the list and my message= s are just not being received.

Anyway , thank you for your prompt response!

Sincerely,
Julius

On Sun, Dec 28, 2014 at 7:28 PM, = Dale R. Worley <worley@ariadne.com> wrote:
Julius Friedman <juliusfriedman@gmail.com> writes:
> Rfc 2326 explicitly states that seeking can be disabled by not includi= ng
> the end information in the range header.
>
> What if I want to have the end but I don't want to allow seeking?<= br> >
> E.g. my clip is 10 minutes and I have already been playing for 3 and t= here
> are 7 remaining; why can't I convey that and not allow seeking?
I'm no expert in RTSP, but reading the RFC, it appears that the = server
indicates if seeking is allowed by the inclusion of the end-time:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 D.2.1 Basic Playback

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Client implementations may use the presence of length i= nformation
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0to determine if the clip is seekable, and visibly disab= le seeking
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0features for clips for which the length information is = unavailable.

Exactly why the server cannot indicate the total media length without
implicitly stating the media is seekable, I don't know.=C2=A0 Perhaps i= t's
because any such media is theoretically seekable, since it must already
be instantiated as a stored data object.=C2=A0 Or perhaps it is because if<= br> seeking is not implemented, the user interface is expected to not
display the "slider bar", and so there is no way to tell the user= how
much time remains in the media:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Client implementations may use the presence of length i= nformation
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0to determine if the clip is seekable, and visibly disab= le seeking
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0features for clips for which the length information is = unavailable.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0A common use of the presentation length is to implement= a "slider
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0bar" which serves as both a progress indicator and= a timeline
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0positioning tool.

Perhaps referring to the mailing list discussion for this RFC would
reveal the answer.

In any case, why would we want to prevent seeking on a stored media
object?=C2=A0 I can see why if the media is an un-stored media stream, but = in
that case, the software likely doesn't know the total length that the media will have.

Dale

--001a1134c7c889e8cd050b502aeb-- From nobody Sun Dec 28 20:48:27 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A48141ACD6A; Sun, 28 Dec 2014 20:48:21 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.997 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.997 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NORMAL_HTTP_TO_IP=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, WEIRD_PORT=0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bZJV2u1WnE13; Sun, 28 Dec 2014 20:48:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pa0-x233.google.com (mail-pa0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c03::233]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7F68E1ACD67; Sun, 28 Dec 2014 20:48:19 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pa0-f51.google.com with SMTP id ey11so16739671pad.10; Sun, 28 Dec 2014 20:48:18 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=iMQ5n4fa5ZenWcmkWdqVyRNFoh0YQjvrEZPZbhyT5CI=; b=DXQnquLbtxlhzduiqx3IapiU6tJ6MNRUX08tdy2qjkHHV0s4pcvGDvl0yGyvNIFYP0 YiQ/y19BRlvxa2DpfeptgOfd1/aB/l2xh0LxvNTdwlPQSOchz9qknSsOLE9wabuuD21H XoF4zmAIPZDdNj5qAbWfC6+xFTWXrp4aLe3lR0ADvBacFTA4Kd529jIfTvnzJw27iUiW IAc5six9Wa6JHWivrKmOr/m8gmuPQAvlaETw7mJBggZ8czg3wCmRT2nacm1tCBLwx+3J UmZxNIiZxP+f+Zyy9YPds+HRdYL+tOwCyv7tH6ixrAYV7tU6Bnr5D5Uc5gihma8nh/Q1 Q9EA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.68.211.193 with SMTP id ne1mr87802279pbc.49.1419828498691; Sun, 28 Dec 2014 20:48:18 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.70.117.99 with HTTP; Sun, 28 Dec 2014 20:48:18 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2014 23:48:18 -0500 Message-ID: From: Julius Friedman To: avt@ietf.org, mmusic@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=e89a8fb208e84e7d0c050b5395e1 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/avt/OiGUsj3m8QDlySoWDxG3NA1o3Jk Subject: [AVTCORE] Possible Erratta in RFC2326 relating to 'source' parameter. X-BeenThere: avt@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2014 04:48:21 -0000 --e89a8fb208e84e7d0c050b5395e1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 RFC2326 Specifies in Section [12.39 Transport] source: If the source address for the stream is different than can be derived from the RTSP endpoint address (the server in playback or the client in recording), the source MAY be specified. Then directly below in the same section Transport = "Transport" ":" 1\#transport-spec transport-spec = transport-protocol/profile[/lower-transport] *parameter transport-protocol = "RTP" profile = "AVP" lower-transport = "TCP" | "UDP" parameter = ( "unicast" | "multicast" ) | ";" "destination" [ "=" address ] | ";" "interleaved" "=" channel [ "-" channel ] | ";" "append" | ";" "ttl" "=" ttl | ";" "layers" "=" 1*DIGIT | ";" "port" "=" port [ "-" port ] | ";" "client_port" "=" port [ "-" port ] | ";" "server_port" "=" port [ "-" port ] | ";" "ssrc" "=" ssrc | ";" "mode" = <"> 1\#mode <"> ttl = 1*3(DIGIT) port = 1*5(DIGIT) ssrc = 8*8(HEX) channel = 1*3(DIGIT) address = host mode = <"> *Method <"> | Method Since 'source' is not listed I don't know the syntax, I assumed it to be an "IPAddress" however the text sates "address" so I imagine if I found a 'source=1.2.3.4:1554' that would be valid however I want to make sure since there isn't any syntax specified in the RFC. Also I would wonder is there any restriction on specifying a port or address range also ? e.g. 'source=1.2.3.4/321202/2' I believe there was a similar issue with Rtp-Info headers which was fixed in 'biz' however this among other issues were not addressed and I am wondering if any other updates will be made to this RFC before 2.0 Draft is finalized. Hopefully this won't have to be added to my list of `issues` but unless I am missing something I will also have to file errata for this. Thanks in advance! --e89a8fb208e84e7d0c050b5395e1 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
RFC2326 Specifies in Section [12.39 Transport]

 source:
          If the source address for the stream is different than can be
          derived from the RTSP endpoint address (the server in playback
          or the client in recording), the source MAY be specified.
Then directly below in the same section

 Transport           =3D    "Transport" ":"
                            1\#transport-spec
   transport-spec      =3D    transport-protocol/profile[/lower-transport]
                            *parameter
   transport-protocol  =3D    "RTP"
   profile             =3D    "AVP"
   lower-transport     =3D    "TCP" | "UDP"
   parameter           =3D    ( "unicast" | "multicast"=
 )
                       |    ";" "destination" [ "=
=3D" address ]
                       |    ";" "interleaved" "=3D=
" channel [ "-" channel ]
                       |    ";" "append"
                       |    ";" "ttl" "=3D" t=
tl
                       |    ";" "layers" "=3D"=
; 1*DIGIT
                       |    ";" "port" "=3D" =
port [ "-" port ]
                       |    ";" "client_port" "=3D=
" port [ "-" port ]
                       |    ";" "server_port" "=3D=
" port [ "-" port ]
                       |    ";" "ssrc" "=3D" =
ssrc
                       |    ";" "mode" =3D <"&g=
t; 1\#mode <">
   ttl                 =3D    1*3(DIGIT)
   port                =3D    1*5(DIGIT)
   ssrc                =3D    8*8(HEX)
   channel             =3D    1*3(DIGIT)
   address             =3D    host
   mode                =3D    <"> *Method <"> | Metho=
d

Since 'source' is not =
listed I don't know the syntax, I assumed it to be an "IPAddress&q=
uot; however the text sates "address" so I imagine if I found a &=
#39;source=3D1.2.3.4:1554' that wou=
ld be valid however I want to make sure since there isn't any syntax sp=
ecified in the RFC.=C2=A0
A=
lso I would wonder is there any restriction on specifying a port or address=
 range also ? e.g. 'source=3D1.2.3.=
4/321202/2'
=
I belie=
ve there was a similar issue with Rtp-Info headers which was fixed in '=
biz' however this among other issues were not addressed and I am wonder=
ing if any other updates will be made to this RFC before 2.0 Draft is final=
ized.
Hopefully this won=
9;t have to be added to my list of `issues` but unless I am missing somethi=
ng I will also have to file=C2=A0errata=C2=A0for this.
<= pre style=3D"word-wrap:break-word">Thanks in advance!
--e89a8fb208e84e7d0c050b5395e1-- From nobody Tue Dec 30 12:35:59 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: avt@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7BB11A6F04 for ; Tue, 30 Dec 2014 12:35:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.465 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.465 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IFtzkTqmZWC0 for ; Tue, 30 Dec 2014 12:35:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from resqmta-po-05v.sys.comcast.net (resqmta-po-05v.sys.comcast.net [IPv6:2001:558:fe16:19:96:114:154:164]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 921061A6F0E for ; Tue, 30 Dec 2014 12:35:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from resomta-po-06v.sys.comcast.net ([96.114.154.230]) by resqmta-po-05v.sys.comcast.net with comcast id Zwak1p0094yXVJQ01wbwCU; Tue, 30 Dec 2014 20:35:56 +0000 Received: from hobgoblin.ariadne.com ([70.42.157.71]) by resomta-po-06v.sys.comcast.net with comcast id ZwZg1p00V1YiR5A01wZkWz; Tue, 30 Dec 2014 20:33:54 +0000 Received: from hobgoblin.ariadne.com (hobgoblin.ariadne.com [127.0.0.1]) by hobgoblin.ariadne.com (8.14.7/8.14.7) with ESMTP id sBUKXwE0022477; Tue, 30 Dec 2014 15:33:58 -0500 Received: (from worley@localhost) by hobgoblin.ariadne.com (8.14.7/8.14.7/Submit) id sBUKXwK9022474; Tue, 30 Dec 2014 15:33:58 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: hobgoblin.ariadne.com: worley set sender to worley@alum.mit.edu using -f From: worley@ariadne.com (Dale R. Worley) To: Julius Friedman In-Reply-To: (juliusfriedman@gmail.com) Sender: worley@ariadne.com (Dale R. Worley) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2014 15:33:58 -0500 Message-ID: <87a924c1xl.fsf@hobgoblin.ariadne.com> DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=comcast.net; s=q20140121; t=1419971756; bh=BsZFdfHV7lRqLrVPUuvshFOIKgYAYN18872J7Uxx+8E=; h=Received:Received:Received:Received:From:To:Subject:Date: Message-ID; b=RAfTxLG7rqDiqvnHsM+x+RlHaFeeb4pw/IgGEeNI9S8Deh2Io86FcK7p6u10JbeE6 7QozjY4CGW8/ZOyJziBuEfLNTE5xVi8mpgaXtaEV4n2KBk3fl5OiinIOMZpTnvXkli 5vP8LyPKwGQyJ+DzM1GUOjgaCi6N/61aDTiZ2fsmtSmU0TX097LSOLUsFgZLeFGBE2 xSUWBIojGgP3l5cJQVEEFx6DjLc9UqDrAhtOxR/vWTU6HVzCGP7AGQypvK8p7Dh3AT ssRWgm+BEFM30UOXEuWPiDnmWJ3IqcLOgeTrZkogn3q6CjFuZbX1XaGkO5gVr5Dmcc YapJeUrvmtKww== Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/avt/vHiD80XqSX5KX1K9akXqumRAfX0 Cc: avt@ietf.org, mmusic@ietf.org Subject: Re: [AVTCORE] Possible Erratta in RFC2326 relating to 'source' parameter. X-BeenThere: avt@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Core Maintenance List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2014 20:35:58 -0000 Julius Friedman writes: > Transport = "Transport" ":" > 1\#transport-spec In a few places, RFC 2326 seems to use "\#" in place of "#". There doesn't seem to be any documentation for this. There seems to be other peculiar punctuation as well, including "\$" and "$'$". > Since 'source' is not listed I don't know the syntax, I assumed it to > be an "IPAddress" however the text sates "address" so I imagine if I > found a 'source=1.2.3.4:1554' that would be valid however I want to > make sure since there isn't any syntax specified in the RFC. It's not clear to me that there *is* a "source=" parameter for the Transport header. Yes, there is prose describing source as a datum, but there's no BNF for a corresponding parameter, and a quick search doesn't turn up any instance of "Transport: ...source=..." in any RFC or I-D. However, "source=" is shown in http://heim.ifi.uio.no/~meccano/reflector/smallclient.html > Also I would wonder is there any restriction on specifying a port or > address range also ? e.g. 'source=1.2.3.4/321202/2' Well, I see "parameter = [...] ";" "destination" [ "=" address ]", and address = host host = so it looks like
cannot specifiy an address range or a port. I'd expect the port to be specified by the "client_port" and "server_port" parameters. (BTW, it looks to me like the first "of" in the definition of should be "or".) > I believe there was a similar issue with Rtp-Info headers which was > fixed in 'biz' however this among other issues were not addressed and > I am wondering if any other updates will be made to this RFC before > 2.0 Draft is finalized. An RFC is never "updated", although it can be obsoleted by a later RFC that entirely replaces it. Dale