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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Feb 1 06:37:00 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF7AF3A6959; Mon, 1 Feb 2010 06:37:00 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_23=0.6, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pvdN8S-N2NJW; Mon, 1 Feb 2010 06:36:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D52963A6952; Mon, 1 Feb 2010 06:36:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NbxDJ-0006iE-99 for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 14:25:17 +0000 Received: from [2001:1488:800:400::400] (helo=mail.nic.cz) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NbxDG-0006he-IV for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 14:25:15 +0000 Received: from [IPv6:2001:1488:ac14:1400:224:e8ff:fea9:f617] (unknown [IPv6:2001:1488:ac14:1400:224:e8ff:fea9:f617]) by mail.nic.cz (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 9E05D76C026 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 2010 15:25:05 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <4B66E441.6090104@nic.cz> Date: Mon, 01 Feb 2010 15:25:05 +0100 From: =?UTF-8?B?T25kxZllaiBTdXLDvQ==?= User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.9.1.7) Gecko/20100111 Lightning/1.0b1 Thunderbird/3.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] Re: I-D ACTION:draft-vandergaast-edns-client-ip-00.txt References: <7c31c8cc1001271556w4918093er6e94e07cb92c4dc4@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <7c31c8cc1001271556w4918093er6e94e07cb92c4dc4@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: I am replying to several mails at once, since some of them address my concerns after reading whole draft. On 28.1.2010 00:56, Wilmer van der Gaast wrote: > Hello everyone, > > I spoke to Olafur about this idea in Hiroshima last year. I'm afraid > the deadline for Anaheim already passed, but we hope we can discuss it > on-line in the meantime and decide if it should become a WG item in > Maastricht later this year. > > To summarize the I-D: It specifies an EDNS0 option that carries IP > address information (by default only the first 24 bits to preserve > privacy) of the user that triggered a DNS resolution. This should > allow authoritative nameservers that give geo-targeted responses to be > more accurate, even in cases where the resolver and its users aren't > close to each other. To preserve the ability to cache such responses > efficiently, the option in the response can indicate which exact > subnet it should be cached for. > > Comments are more than welcome. #1: There should be a way how to ask recursive resolver if he has set edns-client-ip on query or not, so end client knows if authoritative server knows his IP or not. (let's call it stalk flag) On 28.1.2010 20:02, Nicholas Weaver wrote: >> it's not worth a global upgrade to DNS in its current form. > > It can be done WITHOUT a global upgrade: you can do it with JUST > upgrades to the recursive resolvers and authorities desiring such > behavior, see my note on fallbacks from the resolver point of view. No you can't. Since all end users would loose privacy from day zero, since this proposal is opt-out, not opt-in. Therefore you need to do a global upgrade. On 29.1.2010 12:32, Stephane Bortzmeyer wrote: > 2) A more ambitious one (may be too ambitious), to have an EDNS option > code "Client info", with sub-codes and various fields (and a registry > at IANA to register these fields) to carry absolutely everything from > the desktop client to the authoritative name server. IP address > information would then be just a special case. I like this proposal, you can then set country to CZ, or language to "cs" as opt-in (same as in the browser). I would just hate if my resolver starts to send my IP address to authoritative DNS without asking me. Ondrej -- Ondřej Surý vedoucí výzkumu/R&D manager ------------------------------------------- CZ.NIC, z.s.p.o. -- Laboratoře CZ.NIC Americka 23, 120 00 Praha 2, Czech Republic mailto:ondrej.sury@nic.cz http://nic.cz/ tel:+420.222745110 fax:+420.222745112 ------------------------------------------- From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Feb 1 06:39:03 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 815453A695F; Mon, 1 Feb 2010 06:39:03 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_23=0.6, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id M2zHcU24uE5m; Mon, 1 Feb 2010 06:39:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A544A3A6960; Mon, 1 Feb 2010 06:39:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NbxL5-0008AZ-Dh for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 14:33:19 +0000 Received: from [2001:1488:800:400::400] (helo=mail.nic.cz) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NbxL2-0008A2-OH for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 14:33:16 +0000 Received: from [IPv6:2001:1488:ac14:1400:224:e8ff:fea9:f617] (unknown [IPv6:2001:1488:ac14:1400:224:e8ff:fea9:f617]) by mail.nic.cz (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id EDBE976C02B; Mon, 1 Feb 2010 15:33:10 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <4B66E625.2070708@nic.cz> Date: Mon, 01 Feb 2010 15:33:09 +0100 From: =?UTF-8?B?T25kxZllaiBTdXLDvQ==?= User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.9.1.7) Gecko/20100111 Lightning/1.0b1 Thunderbird/3.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nicholas Weaver , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] Re: I-D ACTION:draft-vandergaast-edns-client-ip-00.txt References: <7c31c8cc1001271556w4918093er6e94e07cb92c4dc4@mail.gmail.com> <6e04e83a1001281107r470b104dj5d3b66919ce69977@mail.gmail.com> <7c31c8cc1001281125l2605b5d0tc528abdb2d35a48@mail.gmail.com> <6e04e83a1001281155y8961ddfy763d4f79d5d45c3f@mail.gmail.com> <4C393F4E-4DAF-4514-ACE4-E0DBB8C63B34@icsi.berkeley.edu> In-Reply-To: <4C393F4E-4DAF-4514-ACE4-E0DBB8C63B34@icsi.berkeley.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On 28.1.2010 21:19, Nicholas Weaver wrote: > The client has ALREADY given up the privacy to the third party DNS resolver, the additional privacy leakage thereafter would be trivial. I strongly disagree with this statement. You can have all sorts of agreements with third party DNS resolver provider, including privacy agreement, etc. This is one-to-one relationship. On the other hand giving your IP address (or netblock) to random third party authoritative DNS providers is a different thing in my view, since you give your IP address/netblock to every-typo-you-make authoritative DNS server. Ondrej -- Ondřej Surý vedoucí výzkumu/R&D manager ------------------------------------------- CZ.NIC, z.s.p.o. -- Laboratoře CZ.NIC Americka 23, 120 00 Praha 2, Czech Republic mailto:ondrej.sury@nic.cz http://nic.cz/ tel:+420.222745110 fax:+420.222745112 ------------------------------------------- From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Feb 1 07:03:47 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1ACB328C16F; Mon, 1 Feb 2010 07:03:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NWrreUtLFLgV; Mon, 1 Feb 2010 07:03:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E16C28C15A; Mon, 1 Feb 2010 07:03:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nbxin-000DAw-Hf for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 14:57:49 +0000 Received: from [64.71.152.85] (helo=tigger.mamista.net) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nbxik-000DAW-Ej for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 14:57:46 +0000 Received: by tigger.mamista.net (Postfix, from userid 1001) id 281121102D0; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 01:57:46 +1100 (EST) Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2010 01:57:46 +1100 From: Martin Barry To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] Re: I-D ACTION:draft-vandergaast-edns-client-ip-00.txt Message-ID: <20100201145746.GA29691@tigger.mamista.net> References: <7c31c8cc1001271556w4918093er6e94e07cb92c4dc4@mail.gmail.com> <6e04e83a1001281107r470b104dj5d3b66919ce69977@mail.gmail.com> <7c31c8cc1001281125l2605b5d0tc528abdb2d35a48@mail.gmail.com> <6e04e83a1001281155y8961ddfy763d4f79d5d45c3f@mail.gmail.com> <4C393F4E-4DAF-4514-ACE4-E0DBB8C63B34@icsi.berkeley.edu> <4B66E625.2070708@nic.cz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <4B66E625.2070708@nic.cz> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: $quoted_author = "Ondřej Surý" ; > > On 28.1.2010 21:19, Nicholas Weaver wrote: > >The client has ALREADY given up the privacy to the third party DNS > >resolver, the additional privacy leakage thereafter would be trivial. > > I strongly disagree with this statement. You can have all sorts of > agreements with third party DNS resolver provider, including privacy > agreement, etc. This is one-to-one relationship. On the other hand > giving your IP address (or netblock) to random third party > authoritative DNS providers is a different thing in my view, since > you give your IP address/netblock to every-typo-you-make > authoritative DNS server. I'm not sure I understand this concern. A DNS request is usually followed by a connection from an application. Given that the edns-client-ip option in the draft would apply a netmask, surely that is providing less information to the service operator than the subsequent connection to their service. cheers Marty From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Feb 1 07:22:58 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8AD63A6959; Mon, 1 Feb 2010 07:22:58 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.237 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.237 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.012, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id svCWjvu6Zg84; Mon, 1 Feb 2010 07:22:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DAE983A688B; Mon, 1 Feb 2010 07:22:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nby1q-000HTh-Al for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 15:17:30 +0000 Received: from [2001:660:3003:2::4:11] (helo=mx2.nic.fr) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nby1j-000HS8-K7 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 15:17:23 +0000 Received: from mx2.nic.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mx2.nic.fr (Postfix) with SMTP id 08A561C018D; Mon, 1 Feb 2010 16:17:22 +0100 (CET) Received: from relay1.nic.fr (relay1.nic.fr [192.134.4.162]) by mx2.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03EB81C0180; Mon, 1 Feb 2010 16:17:22 +0100 (CET) Received: from bortzmeyer.nic.fr (batilda.nic.fr [192.134.4.69]) by relay1.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01891A1D9A8; Mon, 1 Feb 2010 16:17:22 +0100 (CET) Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2010 16:17:21 +0100 From: Stephane Bortzmeyer To: Martin Barry Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: [dnsext] Re: I-D ACTION:draft-vandergaast-edns-client-ip-00.txt Message-ID: <20100201151721.GA25870@nic.fr> References: <7c31c8cc1001271556w4918093er6e94e07cb92c4dc4@mail.gmail.com> <6e04e83a1001281107r470b104dj5d3b66919ce69977@mail.gmail.com> <7c31c8cc1001281125l2605b5d0tc528abdb2d35a48@mail.gmail.com> <6e04e83a1001281155y8961ddfy763d4f79d5d45c3f@mail.gmail.com> <4C393F4E-4DAF-4514-ACE4-E0DBB8C63B34@icsi.berkeley.edu> <4B66E625.2070708@nic.cz> <20100201145746.GA29691@tigger.mamista.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20100201145746.GA29691@tigger.mamista.net> X-Operating-System: Debian GNU/Linux 5.0.3 X-Kernel: Linux 2.6.26-2-686 i686 Organization: NIC France X-URL: http://www.nic.fr/ User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On Tue, Feb 02, 2010 at 01:57:46AM +1100, Martin Barry wrote a message of 24 lines which said: > I'm not sure I understand this concern. Then you did not read the whole thread: From: Stephane Bortzmeyer To: Alex Bligh Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2010 12:38:13 +0100 This would lose a lot of privacy since the IP address of the "desktop" client would be transmitted in full, not only to the HTTP server but also to middlemen, the authoritative servers of the root, the TLD, etc. The draft has a provision for this (section 4.1) but it is just a MAY and does not blend well with the general zone cut rules. Also, the HTTP request may be through a proxy, too, so you cannot even say that the HTTP server would know the address. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Feb 1 07:37:01 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A11B28C0F8; Mon, 1 Feb 2010 07:37:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.827 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.827 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.150, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Axjf4ieYgoqv; Mon, 1 Feb 2010 07:37:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60EDA3A6826; Mon, 1 Feb 2010 07:37:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NbyEI-000JxI-Uw for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 15:30:23 +0000 Received: from [216.239.44.51] (helo=smtp-out.google.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NbyEC-000JwV-K0 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 15:30:16 +0000 Received: from kpbe11.cbf.corp.google.com (kpbe11.cbf.corp.google.com [172.25.105.75]) by smtp-out.google.com with ESMTP id o11FUFUJ001748 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 2010 07:30:15 -0800 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=beta; t=1265038215; bh=7FcnsuDKwufyjiR+RrbLIRJPvr4=; h=MIME-Version:In-Reply-To:References:From:Date:Message-ID:Subject: To:Cc:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=I+T1JXHHgRK2LdAOO9n0qgTD/a3FQi1TP0GdjI7RGcOIwpWxzZyV40DI1DwKmJQb8 JDwouOAiGtEEVxmwhoD5w== DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=beta; d=google.com; c=nofws; q=dns; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id: subject:to:cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:x-system-of-record; b=ML7mp7tgfESrsTSJF5OnBJ3U1Mh4iG8EmNZBlFb2+c3w/FqzzozALBXvyX6bvh7Yj dcyKN8dwWBBz/nlY6vsRQ== Received: from pxi3 (pxi3.prod.google.com [10.243.27.3]) by kpbe11.cbf.corp.google.com with ESMTP id o11FTbfH015520 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 2010 09:30:07 -0600 Received: by pxi3 with SMTP id 3so87576pxi.16 for ; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 07:29:59 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.143.26.16 with SMTP id d16mr3109785wfj.287.1265038199156; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 07:29:59 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <4B66E441.6090104@nic.cz> References: <7c31c8cc1001271556w4918093er6e94e07cb92c4dc4@mail.gmail.com> <4B66E441.6090104@nic.cz> From: Carlo Contavalli Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2010 15:29:39 +0000 Message-ID: <4966825a1002010729m32b5ccfel94f7cb09d8b5e458@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [dnsext] Re: I-D ACTION:draft-vandergaast-edns-client-ip-00.txt To: =?UTF-8?B?T25kxZllaiBTdXLDvQ==?= Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-System-Of-Record: true Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On Mon, Feb 1, 2010 at 2:25 PM, Ond=C5=99ej Sur=C3=BD = wrote: > On 28.1.2010 20:02, Nicholas Weaver wrote: >>> it's not worth a global upgrade to DNS in its current form. >> >> It can be done WITHOUT a global upgrade: you can do it with JUST >> upgrades to the recursive resolvers and authorities desiring such >> behavior, see my note on fallbacks from the resolver point of view. > > No you can't. =C2=A0Since all end users would loose privacy from day zero= , since > this proposal is opt-out, not opt-in. =C2=A0Therefore you need to do a gl= obal > upgrade. Define "from day zero"? recursive resolvers do not have to implement edns-client-ip, and they do not have to turn it on. They CAN, if they want, and the hope is that they eventually WILL when it brings advantages to their users. And it'll take time for each one of them to eventually decide they want to enable the option. It is opt-in from the recursive-resolver point of view. It is opt-out from the end client point of view. But again, we are defining a *protocol*, a means for two computers to exchange data with each other, not a policy. > opt-in (same as in the browser). =C2=A0I would just hate if my resolver s= tarts to > send my IP address to authoritative DNS without asking me. Eg, what's preventing recursive resolvers from forwarding your IP address now? the lack of protocol support? or a contract/privacy statement with their users? if IETF does not allow a protocol to do so, will they NOT forward your IP address? and again, we're not even talking about the full IP address, and in most cases you just connect to the server right after doing the lookup. It's similar to when you use a proxy: will it include a X-Forwarded-For header? or not? how do you know it is? how do you know it won't include the header in the future? how do you know they are not forwarding your data by some other means? is this ground to say that X-Forwarded-For should not exist? is this a problem at the protocol layer? Carlo From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Feb 1 07:42:15 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9B0C28C15C; Mon, 1 Feb 2010 07:42:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.426 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.426 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.127, BAYES_00=-2.599, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CCC8UFJATIYb; Mon, 1 Feb 2010 07:42:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D29A28C13E; Mon, 1 Feb 2010 07:42:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NbyKr-000LHF-9z for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 15:37:09 +0000 Received: from [192.150.186.11] (helo=fruitcake.ICSI.Berkeley.EDU) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NbyKY-000LEu-KR for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 15:36:50 +0000 Received: from [IPv6:::1] (jack.ICSI.Berkeley.EDU [192.150.186.73]) by fruitcake.ICSI.Berkeley.EDU (8.12.11.20060614/8.12.11) with ESMTP id o11FZ5JK004534; Mon, 1 Feb 2010 07:36:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: [dnsext] Re: I-D ACTION:draft-vandergaast-edns-client-ip-00.txt Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 From: Nicholas Weaver In-Reply-To: <4B66E441.6090104@nic.cz> Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2010 07:36:04 -0800 Cc: Nicholas Weaver , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <1A458DCC-DE62-4B65-A8DC-092B451485ED@icsi.berkeley.edu> References: <7c31c8cc1001271556w4918093er6e94e07cb92c4dc4@mail.gmail.com> <4B66E441.6090104@nic.cz> To: =?utf-8?Q?Ond=C5=99ej_Sur=C3=BD?= X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On Feb 1, 2010, at 6:25 AM, Ond=C5=99ej Sur=C3=BD wrote: > On 28.1.2010 00:56, Wilmer van der Gaast wrote: >> Hello everyone, >>=20 >> I spoke to Olafur about this idea in Hiroshima last year. I'm afraid >> the deadline for Anaheim already passed, but we hope we can discuss = it >> on-line in the meantime and decide if it should become a WG item in >> Maastricht later this year. >>=20 >> To summarize the I-D: It specifies an EDNS0 option that carries IP >> address information (by default only the first 24 bits to preserve >> privacy) of the user that triggered a DNS resolution. This should >> allow authoritative nameservers that give geo-targeted responses to = be >> more accurate, even in cases where the resolver and its users aren't >> close to each other. To preserve the ability to cache such responses >> efficiently, the option in the response can indicate which exact >> subnet it should be cached for. >>=20 >> Comments are more than welcome. >=20 > #1: There should be a way how to ask recursive resolver if he has set = edns-client-ip on query or not, so end client knows if authoritative = server knows his IP or not. (let's call it stalk flag) >=20 >=20 > On 28.1.2010 20:02, Nicholas Weaver wrote: > >> it's not worth a global upgrade to DNS in its current form. > > > > It can be done WITHOUT a global upgrade: you can do it with JUST > > upgrades to the recursive resolvers and authorities desiring such > > behavior, see my note on fallbacks from the resolver point of view. >=20 > No you can't. Since all end users would loose privacy from day zero, = since this proposal is opt-out, not opt-in. Therefore you need to do a = global upgrade. I still don't get what your obsession is here: DNS is already horrible = from a privacy perspective, and third party resolvers make it worse: OpenDNS specifically keep IP adresses for two days, and aggregate = information beyond it. Google Public DNS is roughly the same, and Google's public DNS is = specifically FOR aggregate discovery of information. Third party DNS = costs money, and the ONLY money Google makes from Public DNS is as the = result of data mining information. If you want privacy, you DO NOT USE THIRD PARTY DNS! And there is no real benefit for network-provided DNS to use this = feature. The leakage to upstream authorities unrelated to the final name in this = draft is primarily through the design decision of DNS where the whole = query is sent to the upstream authority (and typos etc). Except in the case of third party resolvers, the upstream authorities = and typo authorities is going to effectively get this level of = information anyway (because of the direct DNS resolver identity tends to = convey most of this outside the 3rd party resolver case, after all, = thats WHY this draft is proposed!), and you're assuming this information = doesn't cache more (so the upstream authorities don't see most of this). DNS is specifically used so the end system can talk to the end site, so = leakage from the end user to the end authority (and in most cases, the = typo authority when it doesn't NXDOMAIN, and how many typos nxdomain = these days?) is a complete nonissue. Basically, if you want privacy of your IP, you don't do normal DNS, you = HAVE to use the same mechanism for DNS that you use to provide the same = privacy of your IP for your final traffic or some other mechanism. =20 EG, route the request through your web proxy or an open proxy. =20 Some 3%+ of NATs out there we tested will proxy external DNS requests = (and a few of those even have a full recursive resolver), so route your = request through THEM. =20 Or Tor. Or the squid proxy you're using for your HTTP traffic, or.... The existing DNS infrastructure would be so bad by your query (after = all, the goal is to basically put third party DNS on the same footing as = first-party DNS, which puts it on the same privacy footprint!) that you = need to add significant privacy preservation to the DNS architecture = before you should consider this a threat. 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------=_NextPart_000_0007_01CAA355.A9FD0700-- From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Feb 1 08:10:44 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54C1B28C180; Mon, 1 Feb 2010 08:10:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.355 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.355 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.244, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zevffTaXzjm4; Mon, 1 Feb 2010 08:10:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1F5E28C163; Mon, 1 Feb 2010 08:10:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NbylO-0001wK-Cr for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 16:04:34 +0000 Received: from [192.245.12.227] (helo=balder-227.proper.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NbylL-0001s7-Nu for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 16:04:31 +0000 Received: from [10.20.30.158] (75-101-30-90.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net [75.101.30.90]) (authenticated bits=0) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id o11G4SKB033388 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 1 Feb 2010 09:04:29 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from paul.hoffman@vpnc.org) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20100201145746.GA29691@tigger.mamista.net> References: <7c31c8cc1001271556w4918093er6e94e07cb92c4dc4@mail.gmail.com> <6e04e83a1001281107r470b104dj5d3b66919ce69977@mail.gmail.com> <7c31c8cc1001281125l2605b5d0tc528abdb2d35a48@mail.gmail.com> <6e04e83a1001281155y8961ddfy763d4f79d5d45c3f@mail.gmail.com> <4C393F4E-4DAF-4514-ACE4-E0DBB8C63B34@icsi.berkeley.edu> <4B66E625.2070708@nic.cz> <20100201145746.GA29691@tigger.mamista.net> Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2010 08:04:25 -0800 To: Martin Barry , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org From: Paul Hoffman Subject: Re: [dnsext] Re: I-D ACTION:draft-vandergaast-edns-client-ip-00.txt Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: At 1:57 AM +1100 2/2/10, Martin Barry wrote: >$quoted_author = "Ondej Sur" ; >> >> On 28.1.2010 21:19, Nicholas Weaver wrote: >> >The client has ALREADY given up the privacy to the third party DNS >> >resolver, the additional privacy leakage thereafter would be trivial. >> >> I strongly disagree with this statement. You can have all sorts of >> agreements with third party DNS resolver provider, including privacy >> agreement, etc. This is one-to-one relationship. On the other hand >> giving your IP address (or netblock) to random third party >> authoritative DNS providers is a different thing in my view, since >> you give your IP address/netblock to every-typo-you-make >> authoritative DNS server. > >I'm not sure I understand this concern. > >A DNS request is usually followed by a connection from an application. > >Given that the edns-client-ip option in the draft would apply a netmask, >surely that is providing less information to the service operator than the >subsequent connection to their service. This assumes that they system that is making the DNS request is the one that is about to make the connection. That is the common, but not universal, case. --Paul Hoffman, Director --VPN Consortium From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Feb 1 08:22:05 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B81C428C1D8; Mon, 1 Feb 2010 08:22:05 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.979 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.979 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AnuuPjQi7-JO; Mon, 1 Feb 2010 08:22:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79FB728C172; Mon, 1 Feb 2010 08:22:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nbyvz-0004J4-W6 for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 16:15:32 +0000 Received: from [66.92.146.20] (helo=stora.ogud.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nbyvu-0004HJ-5A for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 16:15:27 +0000 Received: from stora.ogud.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by stora.ogud.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o11GFOUE032205 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 2010 11:15:24 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from namedroppers@stora.ogud.com) Received: (from namedroppers@localhost) by stora.ogud.com (8.14.3/8.14.3/Submit) id o11GFOKo032204 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 1 Feb 2010 11:15:24 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from namedroppers) Received: from [140.186.190.103] (helo=haybaler.sackheads.org) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nat86-000PdB-LY for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 29 Jan 2010 15:51:30 +0000 Received: from localhost (localhost.sackheads.org [127.0.0.1]) by haybaler.sackheads.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00B57285A7; Fri, 29 Jan 2010 10:51:29 -0500 (EST) Authentication-Results: haybaler.sackheads.org; domainkeys=pass (testing) header.from=john@sackheads.org DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=sackheads.org; s=haybaler; t=1264780289; bh=P6taoOc4VtCjLq9q/nF2TbvjyJes0ixrjdbTJNETnF8=; h=Subject:Mime-Version:Content-Type:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc: Message-Id:References:To; b=k/37S7RHU4tC/u9AQF0a3nzCl3QWfiaR+e6aQ4hf8K507tJ2u6X5O1c94U640mPaE +rTipzSFmSX66UsCsuTXe0by1cYNqElHv6OM/tF/vfkGri2GDKnD1WALul6khPbcyQ wGYp+Ry9t8vSuXyHmLVmIKwy97hNeEE1r87dgVgk= Received: from haybaler.sackheads.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (haybaler.sackheads.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HIfq0i7aB3Bf; Fri, 29 Jan 2010 10:51:28 -0500 (EST) Received: by haybaler.sackheads.org (Postfix, from userid 65534) id B3128285A3; Fri, 29 Jan 2010 10:51:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from usma1mc-0f6642.kendall.corp.akamai.com (fw01.cmbrmaks.akamai.com [80.67.64.10]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: john@sackheads.org) by haybaler.sackheads.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D22628597; Fri, 29 Jan 2010 10:51:28 -0500 (EST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=haybaler; d=sackheads.org; c=nofws; q=dns; h=dkim-signature:subject:mime-version:content-type:from: in-reply-to:date:cc:message-id:references:to:x-mailer; b=MbMGfc6YmdXUMAcfAyJZG9Wg2xeqdd3WDV0eBWTlaOHtUUDVbpSCtOeCVgFxtkN8f oVP89YESTtqvXfre1+J5Okmv5X1eJho1rvifeK8CSKgDnfjnC671v9L7vtxb/H1fVLV 2FIUrOIuT8zhLt1Ltf9X+pW5UxFGTghQ443Ic0U= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=sackheads.org; s=haybaler; t=1264780288; bh=P6taoOc4VtCjLq9q/nF2TbvjyJes0ixrjdbTJNETnF8=; h=Subject:Mime-Version:Content-Type:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc: Message-Id:References:To; b=kLrG9W6Q5NXwMsE5tRh76h5NBOhYJAy7G2//2aLPhYGDsreA1kXrwJtu2C9f0+ymw 2/f8Gk0MLyGzj3LbY7ZMyxmccxW2iB5u9s1MXLj83/6iJBnS1evrFDgLl0CkJFCPZz 7LeXIyHJelyiiecsIXewBVHcqBclHiMLFR8fEuxI= Subject: Re: [dnsext] Re: I-D ACTION:draft-vandergaast-edns-client-ip-00.txt Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-225-857762165 From: John Payne In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 29 Jan 2010 10:51:27 -0500 Cc: Wilmer van der Gaast , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Message-Id: <74DFF61A-A8BB-4B46-A873-F2407C34C412@sackheads.org> References: <7c31c8cc1001271556w4918093er6e94e07cb92c4dc4@mail.gmail.com> To: Roy Arends X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.67 on 66.92.146.20 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: [ Moderators note: Post was moderated, either because it was posted by a non-subscriber, or because it was over 20K. With the massive amount of spam, it is easy to miss and therefore delete relevant posts by non-subscribers. Please fix your subscription addresses. ] --Apple-Mail-225-857762165 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Jan 29, 2010, at 8:05 AM, Roy Arends wrote: > Webserver now knows the clients IP address (10.0.0.2), issues a = redirect toB8AAAQ.localized.google.com=20 For whatever reasons... that does not fly in the real world. =20 It's hard enough getting content providers[1] used to a redirect from = http://example.com/ to http://www.example.com/ [1] I am only emphasizing that there is a distinction between content = provider and CDN. Given the confusion over language localization I feel = it's necessary to point out that content providers are the ones who own = and create the content.... CDNs deliver the content. Only in corner = cases are they the same company.= --Apple-Mail-225-857762165 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Webserver = now knows the clients IP address (10.0.0.2), issues a redirect toB8AAAQ.localized.google.com 

For whatever reasons... that does not fly in the real world. =   

[1] I am only emphasizing that there is a = distinction between content provider and CDN.  Given the confusion = over language localization I feel it's necessary to point out that = content providers are the ones who own and create the content.... CDNs = deliver the content.  Only in corner cases are they the same = company.
= --Apple-Mail-225-857762165-- From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Feb 1 08:46:28 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1F0C28C176; Mon, 1 Feb 2010 08:46:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.567 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.567 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.032, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7+i8VBysJOBH; Mon, 1 Feb 2010 08:46:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C84A28C13E; Mon, 1 Feb 2010 08:46:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NbzIz-0008uu-TV for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 16:39:17 +0000 Received: from [192.150.186.11] (helo=fruitcake.ICSI.Berkeley.EDU) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NbzIx-0008uT-Qj for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 16:39:15 +0000 Received: from [IPv6:::1] (jack.ICSI.Berkeley.EDU [192.150.186.73]) by fruitcake.ICSI.Berkeley.EDU (8.12.11.20060614/8.12.11) with ESMTP id o11Gd7w2010629; Mon, 1 Feb 2010 08:39:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: [dnsext] Re: I-D ACTION:draft-vandergaast-edns-client-ip-00.txt Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Nicholas Weaver In-Reply-To: <74DFF61A-A8BB-4B46-A873-F2407C34C412@sackheads.org> Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2010 08:39:06 -0800 Cc: Nicholas Weaver , Roy Arends , Wilmer van der Gaast , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <139D0D6A-5A31-4EE8-88B9-3CACE933187B@icsi.berkeley.edu> References: <7c31c8cc1001271556w4918093er6e94e07cb92c4dc4@mail.gmail.com> <74DFF61A-A8BB-4B46-A873-F2407C34C412@sackheads.org> To: John Payne X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On Jan 29, 2010, at 7:51 AM, John Payne wrote: >=20 > On Jan 29, 2010, at 8:05 AM, Roy Arends wrote: >=20 >> Webserver now knows the clients IP address (10.0.0.2), issues a = redirect toB8AAAQ.localized.google.com=20 >=20 > For whatever reasons... that does not fly in the real world. =20 > It's hard enough getting content providers[1] used to a redirect from = http://example.com/ to http://www.example.com/ Additionally, in many contexts, such redirects may not be applicable: a) Not everything is HTTP or HTTPS and supports such clean = redirections. b) Exporting user-visible URLs like that is ugly. (we do it on = Netalyzr for transparency & debugging, but its ugly) c) HTTPs is very fussy on names in many cases. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Feb 1 09:52:17 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE9343A67AB; Mon, 1 Feb 2010 09:52:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.499 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.499 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.100, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XKPh43stFPup; Mon, 1 Feb 2010 09:52:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05D833A65A6; Mon, 1 Feb 2010 09:52:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nc0Kc-000Ldm-Fu for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 17:45:02 +0000 Received: from [209.85.222.198] (helo=mail-pz0-f198.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nc0KY-000Ld1-Uk for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 17:44:59 +0000 Received: by pzk36 with SMTP id 36so5752984pzk.5 for ; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 09:44:58 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=pf6VICGuibmNb0TXXRX55geZSZsTAtCVYX6su0Jon7Q=; b=xk1BVx6y25hQArxCSu+dFgX/Mc02T/EOdv5orCSFXi375yfL4BvqsDviPHpDhJITBE KCeHQWvARTdwNeWDiSJOOTvfY2n+bT3CXMHVENV1YynqBcRaS1rrToHbpDByPm9qBk91 9Ver1j1lNJCgRVoSW4IMUzpX2aNTczyoteNfw= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=nunLauXC7NYYq9oxwH/i9QXOmTwDFvd931MPdoXwQzHp/YmldJAVTXcrEs/XvEqUZh WVf7whb3Vx5qXbhkSfjDKtMmrAqO7tz86GclwOIYiQ92d47zb/PrPR1xf09pD2kfwKA4 i0CYbdKRS7/0pdBej3hVguBEvH6zbkllIXU8k= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.142.4.41 with SMTP id 41mr1784408wfd.56.1265046298196; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 09:44:58 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <139D0D6A-5A31-4EE8-88B9-3CACE933187B@icsi.berkeley.edu> References: <7c31c8cc1001271556w4918093er6e94e07cb92c4dc4@mail.gmail.com> <74DFF61A-A8BB-4B46-A873-F2407C34C412@sackheads.org> <139D0D6A-5A31-4EE8-88B9-3CACE933187B@icsi.berkeley.edu> Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2010 09:44:57 -0800 Message-ID: <6e04e83a1002010944q7abfabc6h892ce4cbb1bddcbf@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [dnsext] Re: I-D ACTION:draft-vandergaast-edns-client-ip-00.txt From: Ted Hardie To: Nicholas Weaver Cc: John Payne , Roy Arends , Wilmer van der Gaast , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: Howdy, On Mon, Feb 1, 2010 at 8:39 AM, Nicholas Weaver wrote: > > a) =A0Not everything is HTTP or HTTPS and supports such clean redirection= s. > And this is one of the clearest point in this whole debate: CDNs serve one sort of application, which has a host of other methods in play (redirects, content negotiation, an UPGRADE mechanism to change the security characteri= stics of the channel). Many other applications do not have any of these or use fundamentally different approaches (store-and-forward protocols, for exampl= e, are pretty unlikely to use a redirect-style approach). Are we expecting the client's interaction with the DNS to be different on a= n application basis here? Specifically, do we expect the DNS query to look different when the browser makes a request than when the mail stack does? How realistic is that, really, without the browser maintaining its own stac= k? Isn't it more likely that this will be turned on or off globally? If it does vary, what does that mean for intermediate caching? Does this create yet another pressure to reduce cache times? On a slightly different point, I think Stephane's point on the prevalence o= f tunnels in Mobile IP situations is being lost here--we not only have the ca= se of proxy/tunnels configured for specific applications, but the MIP tunnels = which may be in play here--and that hits a lot of mobile clients that I fear are = not captured in netalyzr data. regards, Ted Hardie From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Feb 1 10:52:28 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 907083A6914; Mon, 1 Feb 2010 10:52:28 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.569 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.569 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.030, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mt4n96-LYluz; Mon, 1 Feb 2010 10:52:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A70D63A659B; Mon, 1 Feb 2010 10:52:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nc1H7-0007fC-7e for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 18:45:29 +0000 Received: from [192.150.186.11] (helo=fruitcake.ICSI.Berkeley.EDU) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nc1H5-0007eb-1i for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 18:45:27 +0000 Received: from [IPv6:::1] (jack.ICSI.Berkeley.EDU [192.150.186.73]) by fruitcake.ICSI.Berkeley.EDU (8.12.11.20060614/8.12.11) with ESMTP id o11IiQ7V029731; Mon, 1 Feb 2010 10:45:18 -0800 (PST) References: <7c31c8cc1001271556w4918093er6e94e07cb92c4dc4@mail.gmail.com> <74DFF61A-A8BB-4B46-A873-F2407C34C412@sackheads.org> <139D0D6A-5A31-4EE8-88B9-3CACE933187B@icsi.berkeley.edu> <6e04e83a1002010944q7abfabc6h892ce4cbb1bddcbf@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <6e04e83a1002010944q7abfabc6h892ce4cbb1bddcbf@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-Id: <973B1F15-E822-491E-89BF-F09FC7E67509@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: Nicholas Weaver , John Payne , Roy Arends , Wilmer van der Gaast , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org From: Nicholas Weaver Subject: Re: [dnsext] Re: I-D ACTION:draft-vandergaast-edns-client-ip-00.txt Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2010 10:45:18 -0800 To: Ted Hardie X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On Feb 1, 2010, at 9:44 AM, Ted Hardie wrote: > Howdy, >=20 > On Mon, Feb 1, 2010 at 8:39 AM, Nicholas Weaver > wrote: >>=20 >> a) Not everything is HTTP or HTTPS and supports such clean = redirections. >>=20 > And this is one of the clearest point in this whole debate: CDNs = serve one > sort of application, which has a host of other methods in play = (redirects, > content negotiation, an UPGRADE mechanism to change the security = characteristics > of the channel). Many other applications do not have any of these or = use > fundamentally different approaches (store-and-forward protocols, for = example, > are pretty unlikely to use a redirect-style approach). Here's a concrete example, lets take imap.google.com (latency matters = for IMAP, bigtime...) Do a query through a random open DNS proxy in Finland, you get: ;; ANSWER SECTION: imap.gmail.com. A 74.125.43.109 Do it through a random open DNS proxy in australia you ge: imap.gmail.com. CNAME gmail-imap.l.google.com. gmail-imap.l.google.com. A 74.125.39.109 Do it through new zeland you get: imap.gmail.com. CNAME gmail-imap.l.google.com. gmail-imap.l.google.com. A 74.125.95.109 Do it through my local DNS settings you get: imap.gmail.com. CNAME gmail-imap.l.google.com. gmail-imap.l.google.com A 72.14.221.111 gmail-imap.l.google.com A 72.14.221.109 (Just from a couple of random DNS proxies) So its clear that DNS-based network localization is being used for = services beyond HTTP already. Do we want such localizations to still = work well when the user is using a 3rd party DNS resolver? > Are we expecting the client's interaction with the DNS to be different = on an > application basis here? Specifically, do we expect the DNS query to = look > different when the browser makes a request than when the mail stack = does? > How realistic is that, really, without the browser maintaining its own = stack? > Isn't it more likely that this will be turned on or off globally? If > it does vary, what > does that mean for intermediate caching? Does > this create yet another pressure to reduce cache times? The net result would probably be the opposite: If you know that an = entry will only be cached for requests from a subrange, you can use a = longer, rather than shorter TTL. > On a slightly different point, I think Stephane's point on the = prevalence of > tunnels in Mobile IP situations is being lost here--we not only have = the case > of proxy/tunnels configured for specific applications, but the MIP = tunnels which > may be in play here--and that hits a lot of mobile clients that I fear = are not > captured in netalyzr data. a: We don't have web browsers in phones (no java support for iPhone, = Blackberry etc), but we DO have plenty of data for web browsers on PCs = through wide-area connections. b: The purpose is NETWORK identification, so "Customer is 'west coast = verizon wireless' " is, in the end, what the authority is trying to = infer. The proxy is still going to be topologically close to the IP = address in terms of network behavior and thats what you want. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Feb 1 11:15:20 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5059228C1BD; Mon, 1 Feb 2010 11:15:20 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.774 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.774 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.825, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id P9kSTIqEP9-W; Mon, 1 Feb 2010 11:15:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CAD128C13C; Mon, 1 Feb 2010 11:15:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nc1eb-000CyB-5Q for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 19:09:45 +0000 Received: from [209.85.222.198] (helo=mail-pz0-f198.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nc1eV-000CwM-5O for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 19:09:39 +0000 Received: by pzk36 with SMTP id 36so5903563pzk.5 for ; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 11:09:39 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=f7W6MvcOv/890TAeTAEiWyKN1VKkvPK9U2runAmHGLU=; b=fkUJlLzEeWeLXGQwHlkS34TqppA5pYYRzdRFCRwcvmx7t5deXuRjGKeipBMbP+hiY9 a/IC9LOCrB+7zRtiHxtdJNNL0MVZI1cnPqZsXktz7TuBo+0/JMXAXmK883GcMvxs3Coq LiXPSsyTfurlUouUVwNjtvReatKxEnEd+VdH0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=Ds+Mvs0a20Q6l8AkIAswEaYRcUKMEeHPRsbDtAR9Uba17+cvfVfKdTNOnq/rn+k9U8 c2ySI83C03P2Rv9IBgvk3h+nhA7M3AP7HBcNJzaWRYdLcFLhQA+GmtSWE/YEvqgnN/bi 9PXmXBafzwLsBYyPD5bED6FVXGDAj+RomPOc4= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.142.67.7 with SMTP id p7mr3160425wfa.120.1265051378877; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 11:09:38 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <973B1F15-E822-491E-89BF-F09FC7E67509@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> References: <7c31c8cc1001271556w4918093er6e94e07cb92c4dc4@mail.gmail.com> <74DFF61A-A8BB-4B46-A873-F2407C34C412@sackheads.org> <139D0D6A-5A31-4EE8-88B9-3CACE933187B@icsi.berkeley.edu> <6e04e83a1002010944q7abfabc6h892ce4cbb1bddcbf@mail.gmail.com> <973B1F15-E822-491E-89BF-F09FC7E67509@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2010 11:09:38 -0800 Message-ID: <6e04e83a1002011109u1cd55c99k8b584648184cdc73@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [dnsext] Re: I-D ACTION:draft-vandergaast-edns-client-ip-00.txt From: Ted Hardie To: Nicholas Weaver Cc: John Payne , Roy Arends , Wilmer van der Gaast , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: In-line below. On Mon, Feb 1, 2010 at 10:45 AM, Nicholas Weaver wrote: > Here's a concrete example, lets take imap.google.com (latency matters for= IMAP, bigtime...) > IMAP is not one of the store-and-forward bits of the email architecture; SMTP would be. But the core question comes back to: how does the DNS stack know that this application is one for which localization will be desirable, given that this is a decision made by the authoritative server? Do you expect this to be opted-into for every query, or only for some? >> Are we expecting the client's interaction with the DNS to be different o= n an >> application basis here? =A0Specifically, do we expect the DNS query to l= ook >> different when the browser makes a request than when the mail stack does= ? >> How realistic is that, really, without the browser maintaining its own s= tack? >> Isn't it more likely that this will be turned on or off globally? =A0If >> it does vary, what >> does that mean for intermediate caching? =A0Does >> this create yet another pressure to reduce cache times? > > The net result would probably be the opposite: =A0If you know that an ent= ry will only be cached for requests from a subrange, you can use a longer, = rather than shorter TTL. You don't actually know that--you're providing a response based on the subr= ange, but depending on the liveness of your load balancing and the caching implementation you could get a wide variety of results. If I previously provided a single response based on the IP address of the querying server and now provide one based on the subrange being served, I might choose to lower the TTL to 0 in order to= make sure that each subrange query is served "fresh", rather than from the cache= . Otherwise, I have to trust that the cache is maintaining multiple entries o= n the subrange basis. You want to set a bit for that too? > >> On a slightly different point, I think Stephane's point on the prevalenc= e of >> tunnels in Mobile IP situations is being lost here--we not only have the= case >> of proxy/tunnels configured for specific applications, but the MIP tunne= ls which >> may be in play here--and that hits a lot of mobile clients that I fear a= re not >> captured in netalyzr data. > > a: =A0We don't have web browsers in phones (no java support for iPhone, B= lackberry etc), but we DO have plenty of data for web browsers on PCs throu= gh wide-area connections. > And those tend to be nomadic, rather than using Mobile IP to deal with visited network issues. Any phone afflicted by (er, using) IMS or the "visitied network" approach will have two IPs--the one associated with MIP tunnel and a local IP in the actual serving network. It's not uncommon to source some or all DNS queries from the tunnel interface, because of the joys of split DNS needed to reach home network resources. This ID would prefer them to come from the local IP address for this localization to work--but t= hat means somehow passing a lot of data to the client on which queries should go where using what source. Coherence ain't just elegant, it's easier. I recognize that there is value= to the CDN approach, but the complications here (and the privacy implications) aren't trivial. Doing this may be well past the 80/20 line for DNS-based localization. Regards, Ted Hardie From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Feb 1 11:55:41 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A3D528C13E; Mon, 1 Feb 2010 11:55:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.571 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.571 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.028, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wKSpR2QoAU5R; Mon, 1 Feb 2010 11:55:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 974F928C1AE; Mon, 1 Feb 2010 11:55:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nc2Gu-000KkX-5a for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 19:49:20 +0000 Received: from [192.150.186.11] (helo=fruitcake.ICSI.Berkeley.EDU) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nc2Gr-000Kk5-QU for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 19:49:17 +0000 Received: from [IPv6:::1] (jack.ICSI.Berkeley.EDU [192.150.186.73]) by fruitcake.ICSI.Berkeley.EDU (8.12.11.20060614/8.12.11) with ESMTP id o11Jn931010219; Mon, 1 Feb 2010 11:49:09 -0800 (PST) References: <7c31c8cc1001271556w4918093er6e94e07cb92c4dc4@mail.gmail.com> <74DFF61A-A8BB-4B46-A873-F2407C34C412@sackheads.org> <139D0D6A-5A31-4EE8-88B9-3CACE933187B@icsi.berkeley.edu> <6e04e83a1002010944q7abfabc6h892ce4cbb1bddcbf@mail.gmail.com> <973B1F15-E822-491E-89BF-F09FC7E67509@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> <6e04e83a1002011109u1cd55c99k8b584648184cdc73@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <6e04e83a1002011109u1cd55c99k8b584648184cdc73@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-Id: <162E0DB1-EC86-4206-AB36-6FEFA786B24C@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: Nicholas Weaver , John Payne , Roy Arends , Wilmer van der Gaast , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org From: Nicholas Weaver Subject: Re: [dnsext] Re: I-D ACTION:draft-vandergaast-edns-client-ip-00.txt Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2010 11:49:08 -0800 To: Ted Hardie X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On Feb 1, 2010, at 11:09 AM, Ted Hardie wrote: > In-line below. >=20 > On Mon, Feb 1, 2010 at 10:45 AM, Nicholas Weaver > wrote: >=20 >> Here's a concrete example, lets take imap.google.com (latency matters = for IMAP, bigtime...) >>=20 >=20 > IMAP is not one of the store-and-forward bits of the email = architecture; > SMTP would be. But the core question comes back to: how does the > DNS stack know that this application is one for which localization = will > be desirable, given that this is a decision made by the authoritative > server? Do you expect this to be opted-into for every query, or only > for some? I would expect EVERY query from third party resolvers ONLY: = network-provider and user-provided resolvers don't need this, they = already export enough information for the authorities to decide based on = resolver IP. And thus the only systems which would need changing are third party = resolvers and authorities which desire the ability to act on this = information. No other changes are needed. ANd I chose IMAP rather than SMTP and IMAP is more important for this = than SMTP for DNS games: its a user-interactive application (unlike SMTP = which is bulk delivery so latency doesn't matter so much), thats not = HTTP and does not support HTTP style redirects, showing how these DNS = tricks are a) Used across more applications than just web traffic b) Used in ways where web-style redirects can't work Thus the "do it in the app layer" crowd are, unfortunatly wrong, you = can't do it in the app layer in important cases, even if you ARE willing = to allow ugly URLs to escape into user-visibility for web traffic. Oh, and you get this for SMTP too: Me: gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com. A 209.85.222.96 uk: gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com. A 209.85.229.27 Australia: gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com. A 209.85.223.62 Singapore: gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com. A 74.125.79.27 >> The net result would probably be the opposite: If you know that an = entry will only be cached for requests from a subrange, you can use a = longer, rather than shorter TTL. >=20 > You don't actually know that--you're providing a response based on the = subrange, > but depending on the liveness of your load balancing and the caching > implementation > you could get a wide variety of results. If I previously provided a > single response > based on the IP address of the querying server and now provide one = based on > the subrange being served, I might choose to lower the TTL to 0 in = order to make > sure that each subrange query is served "fresh", rather than from the = cache. > Otherwise, I have to trust that the cache is maintaining multiple = entries on the > subrange basis. You want to set a bit for that too? A cache which is requesting with this enabled has already said it caches = per subrange, thats why the netmask is in there in both ways, it says = from the resolver -> authority "The guy is somewhere in this part of the = network", and authority -> resolver "you can cache it for this part of = the network". That the request was made at all states that the resolver = understands not all cache entries are valid for all queriers. > Coherence ain't just elegant, it's easier. I recognize that there is = value to > the CDN approach, but the complications here (and the privacy = implications) > aren't trivial. Doing this may be well past the 80/20 line for = DNS-based > localization. Coherence is dead. Opposing this draft won't bring it back. The = choices are either: a) Support incoherence for 3rd party resolvers in the protocol. b) Don't support incoherence for 3rd party resolvers and wonder why = they continue to suck compared with first-party resolvers which will = still have proper incoherence support. Call me firmly in camp a: I'm not a fan of OpenDNS or Google Public = DNS, but for those who use it, I want the users to have the best user = experience, and its clear that controlled incoherence in DNS has become = a key part of "good user experience". If you are in camp B, please explain why ensuring that OpenDNS, Google = Public DNS, etc are at a significant disadvantage in terms of quality of = results is a good thing, when there exists a proposed change which ONLY = effects the third party resolvers and those authorities that want = incoherent results. And DNS privacy is a delusion: DNS leaks so much information already in = the current infrastructure that anyone who actually cares about DNS = privacy has to take special measures: special measures which would not = be affected by this proposal. Special measures that, in particular, = exclude the use of third party resolver services. 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------=_NextPart_000_0007_01CAA37B.9055D6D0-- From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Feb 1 12:47:49 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C28328C13E; Mon, 1 Feb 2010 12:47:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -104.222 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-104.222 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=2.377, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Qn7XGSGN24ly; Mon, 1 Feb 2010 12:47:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50D4F3A6765; Mon, 1 Feb 2010 12:47:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nc365-0005r4-Dp for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 20:42:13 +0000 Received: from [66.92.146.20] (helo=stora.ogud.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nc35w-0005pY-84 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 20:42:04 +0000 Received: from [10.31.200.145] (gatt.md.ogud.com [10.20.30.6]) by stora.ogud.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o11Kftfh082017; Mon, 1 Feb 2010 15:41:57 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from Ed.Lewis@neustar.biz) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <6e04e83a1002011109u1cd55c99k8b584648184cdc73@mail.gmail.com> References: <7c31c8cc1001271556w4918093er6e94e07cb92c4dc4@mail.gmail.com> <74DFF61A-A8BB-4B46-A873-F2407C34C412@sackheads.org> <139D0D6A-5A31-4EE8-88B9-3CACE933187B@icsi.berkeley.edu> <6e04e83a1002010944q7abfabc6h892ce4cbb1bddcbf@mail.gmail.com> <973B1F15-E822-491E-89BF-F09FC7E67509@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> <6e04e83a1002011109u1cd55c99k8b584648184cdc73@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2010 15:41:51 -0500 To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org From: Edward Lewis Subject: [dnsext] Incoherency for the greater good, etc., was RE:...vandergaast... Cc: ed.lewis@neustar.biz Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.67 on 10.20.30.4 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: At 11:09 -0800 2/1/10, Ted Hardie wrote: >how does the >DNS stack know that this application is one for which localization will >be desirable, given that this is a decision made by the authoritative >server? Do you expect this to be opted-into for every query, or only >for some? ... >Coherence ain't just elegant, it's easier. One of the aspects of this that is missing is that the authority server is in on the game and, yes, the incoherency does provide a benefit. This is not the same as wild card redirection, which is where the notion "but the DNS doesn't know why you are asking" creeps in. And yes, coherency is easier, but that isn't a weighted factor in this application. Let's begin with the set up. When I am operating an enterprise I can elect to name my networked services in such a way that I can deduce why a DNS query comes to me. For example, I can use "www.store.example.", "smtp.store.example.", "imap.store.example.", "ftp.store.example." and even "ssh.store.example." When I embed URLs in my web pages, I will use the right domain names and I when I send mail I'll put in the right domain names for Reply-To and what not. By using explicit domain names in the above paragraph, you can probably deduce that this is not the same as the use of a wild card (from the what I've read it sounds like folks are still afraid of that). With a wild card address record in a TLD, the administrator has lost the "knowledge" of the deeper labels. Incoherent DNS is not the same as NXDOMAIN redirection, the challenges and motivations are very different. DNS operators have a long track record of using incoherent DNS configurations. Every employer I've been with since '96 has had one version of the zone for the office and another version for the public. CDNs make use of the technique (I should write "are said to make use" as I have no hands on experience in that). But even with all of this activity, it's never gotten further in the IETF than this draft: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-krishnaswamy-dnsop-dnssec-split-view-04. The popular DNS implementation BIND has had support for incoherency for a long time, called "views." (I can't recall when it came into being.) That's a measure of how wide spread incoherency has gotten. I agree that there are parts of the DNS system where coherency is essential. The root zone and the TLDs (or other widely delegated zones) should be coherent because of the mixed operational population they cover. It's hard to remotely debug a system that is in flux, so it's necessary to have stability there. But this observation doesn't apply as you dive deeper into the DNS, down to places where there is more concentrated effort in maintaining the service. It can be argued that incoherent DNS is just a special case of a coherent DNS system rapidly changing its contents. Mathematically, it's the same. Coherent operations are easier, no doubt. But incoherent DNS servers can also be managed. That "rapid change of coherent servers" is a lot of work, just like incoherent servers is a lot of work. But this allows the authority to tailor responses to the clients they serve. >You don't actually know that--you're providing a response based on the >subrange, but depending on the liveness of your load balancing and the caching >implementation you could get a wide variety of results. If I previously >provided a single response based on the IP address of the querying server >and now provide one based on the subrange being served, I might choose to >lower the TTL to 0 in order to make sure that each subrange query is served >"fresh", rather than from the cache. Otherwise, I have to trust that the >cache is maintaining multiple entries on the subrange basis. You want to >set a bit for that too? Load balancing as the differentiator instead of (or in addition to) source IP address is a challenge but is just as workable. Yes, the TTLs are lower for this to work. Generally, with such short TTLs, it doesn't matter much what a cache does. Keep in mind that often times the service being used is much longer lived than the DNS lookup. If it's a TCP connection that will be up for an hour, I'm just going to get the one that is best at 9:41 and keep it there, even if a 10:13 a different server comes along that would be a better fit. >I recognize that there is value to >the CDN approach, but the complications here (and the privacy implications) >aren't trivial. Doing this may be well past the 80/20 line for DNS-based >localization. The privacy implications are a red herring. When you go to lookup www.store.example., someone is going to know you did that - at least so they can return the answer to you. In many cases it is the operator of the recursive server you are using and not the authority server. While any retailer would like to know the demographics of their customers - whether it's e-retail or Main Street retail - its a matter of what they can get. If stub resolvers use servers @127.0.0.1 then the authority servers will get this. If the stubs are using a "distant" (i.e., not @127.0.0.1) recursive server then the "issue" here is "how much of the information the recursive server collects are they willing to give up to the authority server?" Recursive servers do not have the motivation to expose their stub resolvers, but there is motivation to get better responses to the questions they ask. This statements address only the issues of the usefulness of incoherency, metrics like load balancing, and privacy. I haven't made comments on the EDNS0 option request. -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Edward Lewis NeuStar You can leave a voice message at +1-571-434-5468 As with IPv6, the problem with the deployment of frictionless surfaces is that they're not getting traction. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Feb 1 13:03:29 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F23FC28C163; Mon, 1 Feb 2010 13:03:28 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lSA-+X-owESq; Mon, 1 Feb 2010 13:03:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3273228C0EF; Mon, 1 Feb 2010 13:03:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nc3JC-0008ee-05 for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 20:55:46 +0000 Received: from [64.71.152.85] (helo=tigger.mamista.net) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nc3J7-0008d9-DC for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 20:55:41 +0000 Received: by tigger.mamista.net (Postfix, from userid 1001) id E6D2B1107E4; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 07:55:40 +1100 (EST) Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2010 07:55:40 +1100 From: Martin Barry To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] Re: I-D ACTION:draft-vandergaast-edns-client-ip-00.txt Message-ID: <20100201205540.GA3229@tigger.mamista.net> References: <7c31c8cc1001271556w4918093er6e94e07cb92c4dc4@mail.gmail.com> <74DFF61A-A8BB-4B46-A873-F2407C34C412@sackheads.org> <139D0D6A-5A31-4EE8-88B9-3CACE933187B@icsi.berkeley.edu> <6e04e83a1002010944q7abfabc6h892ce4cbb1bddcbf@mail.gmail.com> <973B1F15-E822-491E-89BF-F09FC7E67509@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> <6e04e83a1002011109u1cd55c99k8b584648184cdc73@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <6e04e83a1002011109u1cd55c99k8b584648184cdc73@mail.gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: $quoted_author = "Ted Hardie" ; > > On Mon, Feb 1, 2010 at 10:45 AM, Nicholas Weaver > wrote: > > > Here's a concrete example, lets take imap.google.com (latency matters > > for IMAP, bigtime...) > > IMAP is not one of the store-and-forward bits of the email architecture; I think he was addressing the "why not just use [HTTP feature X] to redirect" comments. > SMTP would be. But the core question comes back to: how does the > DNS stack know that this application is one for which localization will > be desirable, given that this is a decision made by the authoritative > server? Do you expect this to be opted-into for every query, or only > for some? My reading of it was those resolvers not near the edge they are serving would opt-in for all queries. > You don't actually know that--you're providing a response based on the subrange, > but depending on the liveness of your load balancing and the caching > implementation > you could get a wide variety of results. If I previously provided a > single response > based on the IP address of the querying server and now provide one based on > the subrange being served, I might choose to lower the TTL to 0 in order to make > sure that each subrange query is served "fresh", rather than from the cache This has drifted away from being edns-client-ip specific, but... Selecting a TTL will probably depend on how resilient each of the "local" nodes is. 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List-Archive: On Mon, Feb 1, 2010 at 11:49 AM, Nicholas Weaver wrote: > > > I would expect EVERY query from third party resolvers ONLY: network-provi= der and user-provided resolvers don't need this, they already export enough= information for the authorities to decide based on resolver IP. > That's only true if the network-provider architectures for DNS match that f= or routing--if they have a DNS hierarchy that bubbles up to a top level set, it's very possible for queries from them to be in different sub-ranges from= the ones which would be best used for localization. > > And thus the only systems which would need changing are third party resol= vers and authorities which desire the ability to act on this information. = =A0No other changes are needed. > This presumes that the clients do not have to opt-in to this and so no changes are needed from them. > > ANd I chose IMAP rather than SMTP and IMAP is more important for this tha= n SMTP for DNS games: its a user-interactive application (unlike SMTP which= is bulk delivery so latency doesn't matter so much), thats not HTTP and do= es not support HTTP style redirects, showing how these DNS tricks are > > a) =A0Used across more applications than just web traffic > > b) =A0Used in ways where web-style redirects can't work > The point is, though, that there are applications which don't need this; if you default to leaving it on for all applications, you're passing bits that are at best not needed and at worst a privacy concern. > A cache which is requesting with this enabled has already said it caches = per subrange, thats why the netmask is in there in both ways, it says from = the resolver -> authority "The guy is somewhere in this part of the network= ", and authority -> resolver "you can cache it for this part of the network= ". =A0That the request was made at all states that the resolver understands= not all cache entries are valid for all queriers. This may be the optimal result here, but I suspect that it will not be the = only case seen. A cache which did not want to store per subrange information could easily pass the requests up with and then decline to store anything in cache if the netmask is returned; that would increase load off of your optimal scenario and still fit the protocol exchange. > >> Coherence ain't just elegant, it's easier. =A0I recognize that there is = value to >> the CDN approach, but the complications here (and the privacy implicatio= ns) >> aren't trivial. =A0Doing this may be well past the 80/20 line for DNS-ba= sed >> localization. > > Coherence is dead. =A0Opposing this draft won't bring it back. =A0The cho= ices are either: > Please re-read what I said. I recognize the value of DNS-based localizatio= n, but there is still an 80/20 rule to it. This adds complexity to parts of t= he system outside the authoritative systems that want to use these responses, and it is not clear that it is worth it from either a performance or privac= y perspective. > a) =A0Support incoherence for 3rd party resolvers in the protocol. > > b) =A0Don't support incoherence for 3rd party resolvers and wonder why th= ey continue to suck compared with first-party resolvers which will still ha= ve proper incoherence support. > I think if we started from a problem statement we might have other choices that this binary pair. For one thing, we could a discussion of whether or = not the privacy considerations here merit making this opt-in from a client perspective or not. Please try not to draw lines in the sand here where they aren't needed. > > > And DNS privacy is a delusion: =A0DNS leaks so much information already i= n the current infrastructure that anyone who actually cares about DNS priva= cy has to take special measures: special measures which would not be affect= ed by this proposal. =A0Special measures that, in particular, exclude the u= se of third party resolver services. > > I disagree that it only affects them, for starters. It impacts the privacy considerations in ways which will force some people who already take special measures to h= ave to change what they are. Your own figures put that at 3% of clients, leaving aside mobiles and others likely to be hit; that's a much larger number than the 3rd party resolvers and authoritative servers. You may think privacy is a delusion, but you haven't convinced me that it is worth leaving it out of the design constraints here. 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------=_NextPart_000_044C_01CAA394.AFDE01D0-- From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Feb 1 15:38:12 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AAA063A695F; Mon, 1 Feb 2010 15:38:12 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.573 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.573 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.026, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lqMhnUXn2Q1H; Mon, 1 Feb 2010 15:38:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 875F03A6838; Mon, 1 Feb 2010 15:38:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nc5jF-000918-9u for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 23:30:49 +0000 Received: from [192.150.186.11] (helo=fruitcake.ICSI.Berkeley.EDU) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nc5jC-00090f-Ot for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 23:30:46 +0000 Received: from [IPv6:::1] (jack.ICSI.Berkeley.EDU [192.150.186.73]) by fruitcake.ICSI.Berkeley.EDU (8.12.11.20060614/8.12.11) with ESMTP id o11NUcw5009180; Mon, 1 Feb 2010 15:30:38 -0800 (PST) References: <7c31c8cc1001271556w4918093er6e94e07cb92c4dc4@mail.gmail.com> <74DFF61A-A8BB-4B46-A873-F2407C34C412@sackheads.org> <139D0D6A-5A31-4EE8-88B9-3CACE933187B@icsi.berkeley.edu> <6e04e83a1002010944q7abfabc6h892ce4cbb1bddcbf@mail.gmail.com> <973B1F15-E822-491E-89BF-F09FC7E67509@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> <6e04e83a1002011109u1cd55c99k8b584648184cdc73@mail.gmail.com> <162E0DB1-EC86-4206-AB36-6FEFA786B24C@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> <6e04e83a1002011402u395f599g74180d28fdbe5707@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <6e04e83a1002011402u395f599g74180d28fdbe5707@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: Nicholas Weaver , John Payne , Roy Arends , Wilmer van der Gaast , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org From: Nicholas Weaver Subject: Re: [dnsext] Re: I-D ACTION:draft-vandergaast-edns-client-ip-00.txt Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2010 15:30:38 -0800 To: Ted Hardie X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On Feb 1, 2010, at 2:02 PM, Ted Hardie wrote: >=20 >>=20 >> And thus the only systems which would need changing are third party = resolvers and authorities which desire the ability to act on this = information. No other changes are needed. >>=20 >=20 > This presumes that the clients do not have to opt-in to this and so no > changes are needed from them. You could consider an automatic opt-in from all clients using third = party DNS servers, since they opted in to THAT in the first place. But if you want to require manual opt-in, you're saying "Kill this = proposal" just in kinder language. The reason this proposal works is the only changes needed are to the = recursive resolvers and authorities which are affected by this problem. = If you want to suggest that ALL stub resolvers would need to change, = you're saying you don't want this period. And here's why a national ISP wouldn't bother with this: You are going = to do a separate DNS zone for each regional zone, as having everybody go = to a central cache, even heirarchically, is going to hurt performance. = If you want the net to "feel snappy" to customers, you don't add 100ms = to DNS lookups by having all DNS eventually go to one place, rather you = distribute caching recursive resolvers throughout the country Looking at their resolver list, eg, it appears Comcast, for example, = uses 12 such clusters. And for localizing comcast customers for low = latency, good bandwidth, etc, knowing "he's a comcast customer, his DNS = resolver is X" is good enough. =20 Whats needed is to get third party resolvers on the same footing. >> ANd I chose IMAP rather than SMTP and IMAP is more important for this = than SMTP for DNS games: its a user-interactive application (unlike SMTP = which is bulk delivery so latency doesn't matter so much), thats not = HTTP and does not support HTTP style redirects, showing how these DNS = tricks are >>=20 >> a) Used across more applications than just web traffic >>=20 >> b) Used in ways where web-style redirects can't work >>=20 >=20 > The point is, though, that there are applications which don't need = this; > if you default to leaving it on for all applications, you're passing = bits > that are at best not needed and at worst a privacy concern. But even your example of apps that DON'T need it (bulk SMTP) turn out to = use it This is "near universal" functionality at this point for those deploying = internet-scale stuff. So at this point, I believe we can safely say: "DNS already provides = this ability for first-party resolvers, and that this ability is used = across a wide variety of applications, including those which do not = support application level redirects". >>=20 >> Coherence is dead. Opposing this draft won't bring it back. The = choices are either: >>=20 >=20 > Please re-read what I said. I recognize the value of DNS-based = localization, > but there is still an 80/20 rule to it. This adds complexity to parts = of the > system outside the authoritative systems that want to use these = responses, > and it is not clear that it is worth it from either a performance or = privacy > perspective. It only adds complexity to those outside the authoritative systems for = those that want to use the complexity. So its not an 80/20 rule, its a = "only complexity is for those directly benefiting from the complexity". Otherwise, why have a notion of EDNS options at all, if you can't use em = because they don't universally provide benefit? >> a) Support incoherence for 3rd party resolvers in the protocol. >>=20 >> b) Don't support incoherence for 3rd party resolvers and wonder why = they continue to suck compared with first-party resolvers which will = still have proper incoherence support. >>=20 >=20 > I think if we started from a problem statement we might have other = choices > that this binary pair. For one thing, we could a discussion of = whether or not > the privacy considerations here merit making this opt-in from a client > perspective > or not. Please try not to draw lines in the sand here where they > aren't needed. You have staked a binary position, as your "privacy suggestions" are = kill the protocol statements, as anything opt-in beyond the use of a = resolver at all breaks the deployment model, and if you want opt-out, = there already exists plenty of mechanisms FAR better than just saying = "no localization data in my queries". Thus if you want to mandate opt-in, without the notion of "you're using = a 3rd party DNS, you opted in", you are saying "third party DNS should = suck". =20 If you want an opt-out, fine, no objection. It would be meaningless, = really, but that wouldn't affect deployment and its rather irrevelant = anyway. >> And DNS privacy is a delusion: DNS leaks so much information already = in the current infrastructure that anyone who actually cares about DNS = privacy has to take special measures: special measures which would not = be affected by this proposal. Special measures that, in particular, = exclude the use of third party resolver services. >>=20 >>=20 >=20 > I disagree that it only affects them, for starters. It impacts the > privacy considerations > in ways which will force some people who already take special measures = to have > to change what they are. Your own figures put that at 3% of clients, > leaving aside > mobiles and others likely to be hit; that's a much larger number than > the 3rd party > resolvers and authoritative servers. Actually, my figure is far less, because 3% is just one of the = conditions: use a proxy for HTTP thorugh the browser. Its actually only = 1% when you exclude those sessions who's non-browser traffic goes = through the proxy. So of the 1% we see, the ones who would be affected are: a: Those who's proxies are significantly different than their non HTTP = traffic in terms of network location. b: Who use a third party DNS service c: Where they don't route the DNS requests through the proxy d: Somehow care about privacy despite using a 3rd party DNS service = which they explicitly opted-into using in the first place! We can tell A and B, we can't tell C, or D For B: Use a proxy that is in their web browser setting (rather than = forced by the network) + use OpenDNS: .77%. Yes, shockingly high, but = OpenDNS really is overrepresented in our dataset. A will take a fair bit more work to answer, I need to start thinking on = this. > You may think privacy is a delusion, but you haven't convinced me that > it is worth > leaving it out of the design constraints here. Geolocation and other > constraints > would be worse, I grant you, but this one is not trivial in my mind. The problem is, for those who care about DNS privacy, there exist GOOD = opt-in solutions independent of this approach: route your DNS through = the same proxy you use for your traffic. Rather those who this would affect are those who have implicitly stated = they do NOT CARE about DNS privacy, because they are taking the privacy = destroying action of using a third party resolver infrastructure. Once = you give Google the details of all the DNS requests you make, why should = you care if Verisign sees your subnet on the rare requests where there = is no cache for the nameserver entries? From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Feb 1 16:48:22 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D54C03A687A; Mon, 1 Feb 2010 16:48:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.049 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.049 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.550, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uk5FsWZX1oy3; Mon, 1 Feb 2010 16:48:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F4343A67F2; Mon, 1 Feb 2010 16:48:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nc6oX-000Kn1-FM for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 00:40:21 +0000 Received: from [209.85.222.189] (helo=mail-pz0-f189.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nc6oU-000KmR-Q7 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 00:40:19 +0000 Received: by pzk27 with SMTP id 27so5487309pzk.33 for ; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 16:40:18 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=Xa3EwuK6Sek06YLzCJ6FP2GNsAUszD3F2RsttC4Azcc=; b=AEvcRNScAgm0a1uHw4SYEnOu7b5+zM7MYUh/g/vvAljbtLi/Ls+4aaPWitTlemDBX8 JvX/vIr8ztJy5HU5TgF0tMAX7/j/MKW6lE/wFBnnvhRtdXGSsMBzvDAqIMsDCLRUZirQ yBn+HPkYXdOhDKJT4NWtvYWNoiKSnPviuhG90= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=tGi6nCj2+SR4fCRjfDyoa+iwbdIexL0fUp9gYDmTrJeFKnF993LzME56uFbcbVQrbW Vz+YYFTT1aoMsGbQWmqzGedTt6EUQdTKnpvhCc39EO06SrbEa0dgZsaEXdJKpskP+40y lbpIPsxpj1KwJx9Y+hXpugcGMjFyjpwhM1crk= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.143.20.21 with SMTP id x21mr74028wfi.236.1265071218128; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 16:40:18 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <7c31c8cc1001271556w4918093er6e94e07cb92c4dc4@mail.gmail.com> <74DFF61A-A8BB-4B46-A873-F2407C34C412@sackheads.org> <139D0D6A-5A31-4EE8-88B9-3CACE933187B@icsi.berkeley.edu> <6e04e83a1002010944q7abfabc6h892ce4cbb1bddcbf@mail.gmail.com> <973B1F15-E822-491E-89BF-F09FC7E67509@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> <6e04e83a1002011109u1cd55c99k8b584648184cdc73@mail.gmail.com> <162E0DB1-EC86-4206-AB36-6FEFA786B24C@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> <6e04e83a1002011402u395f599g74180d28fdbe5707@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2010 16:40:17 -0800 Message-ID: <6e04e83a1002011640t1b637e30gd7d0150eeb0fae8d@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [dnsext] Re: I-D ACTION:draft-vandergaast-edns-client-ip-00.txt From: Ted Hardie To: Nicholas Weaver Cc: John Payne , Roy Arends , Wilmer van der Gaast , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: In-line. Probably also worth splitting discussion onto other threads in any case, as others have done. On Mon, Feb 1, 2010 at 3:30 PM, Nicholas Weaver wrote: > > On Feb 1, 2010, at 2:02 PM, Ted Hardie wrote: >> >>> >>> And thus the only systems which would need changing are third party res= olvers and authorities which desire the ability to act on this information.= =A0No other changes are needed. >>> >> >> This presumes that the clients do not have to opt-in to this and so no >> changes are needed from them. > > You could consider an automatic opt-in from all clients using third party= DNS servers, since they opted in to THAT in the first place. > Except that it wasn't in place when they configured them. So that's a post-facto opt-in, which doesn't seem much like an opt-in at all. > But if you want to require manual opt-in, you're saying "Kill this propos= al" just in kinder language. > Notice that I'm not saying "Don't work on this problem", though. If the client included a bit that said "feel free to pass my details on" (what GEOPRIV used to call "setting the ravish-me bit") then I would have no privacy concern. > And here's why a national ISP wouldn't bother with this: =A0You are going= to do a separate DNS zone for each regional zone, as having everybody go t= o a central cache, even heirarchically, is going to hurt performance. =A0If= you want the net to "feel snappy" to customers, you don't add 100ms to DNS= lookups by having all DNS eventually go to one place, rather you distribut= e caching recursive resolvers throughout the country > I'm aware of large scale enterprises that do bubble up to a single cluster per region, where region is at a continental scale. If use my local DNS infrastructure, for example, the queries will come from New Jersey. I am three time zones away. But fixing that by having the enterprise understand the issue and re-deploy requires no protocol changes and saves latency in other ways besides. > Looking at their resolver list, eg, it appears Comcast, for example, uses= 12 such clusters. =A0And for localizing comcast customers for low latency,= good bandwidth, etc, knowing "he's a comcast customer, his DNS resolver is= X" is good enough. > > Whats needed is to get third party resolvers on the same footing. > >>> ANd I chose IMAP rather than SMTP and IMAP is more important for this t= han SMTP for DNS games: its a user-interactive application (unlike SMTP whi= ch is bulk delivery so latency doesn't matter so much), thats not HTTP and = does not support HTTP style redirects, showing how these DNS tricks are >>> >>> a) =A0Used across more applications than just web traffic >>> >>> b) =A0Used in ways where web-style redirects can't work >>> >> >> The point is, though, that there are applications which don't need this; >> if you default to leaving it on for all applications, you're passing bit= s >> that are at best not needed and at worst a privacy concern. > > But even your example of apps that DON'T need it (bulk SMTP) turn out to = use it > > This is "near universal" functionality at this point for those deploying = internet-scale stuff. > No. If a recursive resolver turns this on globally, it will offer the opti= on to every authoritative server (see section 4.1 of the draft) and it will pass the FAMILY and ADDRESS fields. That information will get passed to every authoritative server, whether that server is localizing or not. That= 's the wasted bits/data leakage issue I mentioned. > > > Actually, my figure is far less, because 3% is just one of the conditions= : use a proxy for HTTP thorugh the browser. Its actually only 1% when you e= xclude those sessions who's non-browser traffic goes through the proxy. > > > So of the 1% we see, the ones who would be affected are: > > a: =A0Those who's proxies are significantly different than their non HTTP= traffic in terms of network location. > > b: =A0Who use a third party DNS service > > c: =A0Where they don't route the DNS requests through the proxy > Not all proxy deployments permit the DNS request to be routed through the proxy. > d: =A0Somehow care about privacy despite using a 3rd party DNS service wh= ich they explicitly opted-into using in the first place! > > We can tell A and B, we can't tell C, or D > > For B: Use a proxy that is in their web browser setting (rather than forc= ed by the network) + use OpenDNS: .77%. =A0Yes, shockingly high, but OpenDN= S really is overrepresented in our dataset. > > A will take a fair bit more work to answer, I need to start thinking on t= his. > You still seem to be missing the mobile IP case, where there is a long-live= d tunnel to a home network but a portion of the traffic is originated from a = local IP. > > >> You may think privacy is a delusion, but you haven't convinced me that >> it is worth >> leaving it out of the design constraints here. =A0Geolocation and other >> constraints >> would be worse, I grant you, but this one is not trivial in my mind. > > The problem is, for those who care about DNS privacy, there exist GOOD op= t-in solutions independent of this approach: route your DNS through the sam= e proxy you use for your traffic. > > Rather those who this would affect are those who have implicitly stated t= hey do NOT CARE about DNS privacy, because they are taking the privacy dest= roying action of using a third party resolver infrastructure. =A0Once you g= ive Google the details of all the DNS requests you make, why should you car= e if Verisign sees your subnet on the rare requests where there is no cache= for the nameserver entries? > You are equating the terms of use for a service provider with the protocol mechanics; someone could deploy a 3rd party service with an explicit statem= ent that the query logs were kept in /dev/null. Presumably such a service would never use this option, but there might well be other solutions which met the authoritative servers need and they would be willing to use. Anything in which the serve= r was willing to provide the mapping information of networks to responders (a= long with a TTL) would have no privacy implication for the individual and would additionally pre-populate the cache of exactly the data this would provide. Of course that has the downside of information leaking the other way, as well as a need to specify what query delivers the goods, but it is obviousl= y possible to divorce the optimization from the privacy issue. Someone once called protocol development as an exercise at deciding whose ox gets gored. Goring the privacy of someone who doesn't get to be a party= to the protocol exchange in which the data is distributed doesn't strike me as= a good idea. Since you've already called me delusional on this point, I doub= t my own ideas convince you. But I point you to the work of GEOPRIV as an existence proof that the IETF as a whole at least once cared about a simila= r issue (and given the services which correlate IP to location, one which is a lot closer than the proposal on the table admits). regards, Ted Hardie From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Feb 1 18:58:08 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 88B183A6812; Mon, 1 Feb 2010 18:58:08 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.574 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.574 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.025, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uYG61cGoyoLT; Mon, 1 Feb 2010 18:58:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3DDD43A67D9; Mon, 1 Feb 2010 18:58:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nc8rr-000ED6-Vw for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 02:51:55 +0000 Received: from [192.150.186.11] (helo=fruitcake.ICSI.Berkeley.EDU) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nc8rp-000ECd-1v for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 02:51:53 +0000 Received: from [IPv6:::1] (jack.ICSI.Berkeley.EDU [192.150.186.73]) by fruitcake.ICSI.Berkeley.EDU (8.12.11.20060614/8.12.11) with ESMTP id o122pjfP002891; Mon, 1 Feb 2010 18:51:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: [dnsext] Privacy vs EDNS Client IP... Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Nicholas Weaver In-Reply-To: <6e04e83a1002011640t1b637e30gd7d0150eeb0fae8d@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2010 18:51:45 -0800 Cc: Nicholas Weaver , John Payne , Roy Arends , Wilmer van der Gaast , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <7c31c8cc1001271556w4918093er6e94e07cb92c4dc4@mail.gmail.com> <74DFF61A-A8BB-4B46-A873-F2407C34C412@sackheads.org> <139D0D6A-5A31-4EE8-88B9-3CACE933187B@icsi.berkeley.edu> <6e04e83a1002010944q7abfabc6h892ce4cbb1bddcbf@mail.gmail.com> <973B1F15-E822-491E-89BF-F09FC7E67509@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> <6e04e83a1002011109u1cd55c99k8b584648184cdc73@mail.gmail.com> <162E0DB1-EC86-4206-AB36-6FEFA786B24C@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> <6e04e83a1002011402u395f599g74180d28fdbe5707@mail.gmail.com> <6e04e83a1002011640t1b637e30gd7d0150eeb0fae8d@mail.gmail.com> To: Ted Hardie X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On Feb 1, 2010, at 4:40 PM, Ted Hardie wrote: >> You could consider an automatic opt-in from all clients using third = party DNS servers, since they opted in to THAT in the first place. >>=20 >=20 > Except that it wasn't in place when they configured them. So that's a > post-facto > opt-in, which doesn't seem much like an opt-in at all. Have you read a terms of service that hasn't said "we can do whatever we = want whenever we want in the future?" You use a third party DNS service, you've already agreed to things like > New Features. >=20 > OpenDNS may, in the future, offer new services and/or features through = the Service (including, the release of new tools and resources). Such = new features and/or services shall be subject to these Terms of Use. = Your continued use of the Service after the introduction of new features = and/or services constitutes your acceptance of the Terms of Use. >> But if you want to require manual opt-in, you're saying "Kill this = proposal" just in kinder language. >>=20 >=20 > Notice that I'm not saying "Don't work on this problem", though. > If the client included a bit that said "feel free to pass my details = on" > (what GEOPRIV used to call "setting the ravish-me bit") then I > would have no privacy concern. IF the client has to notify that its OK, you are saying kill the = proposal. Any change which requires client-change as well as resolver/authority = change is a non-starter. Look at things like Barwood's EDNS0 ping: It = would help against the out-of-path attacker, but because it requires = changes to ALL resolvers and ALL authorities its useless. Now add in = changes to clients into the mix?. >=20 >> And here's why a national ISP wouldn't bother with this: You are = going to do a separate DNS zone for each regional zone, as having = everybody go to a central cache, even heirarchically, is going to hurt = performance. If you want the net to "feel snappy" to customers, you = don't add 100ms to DNS lookups by having all DNS eventually go to one = place, rather you distribute caching recursive resolvers throughout the = country >>=20 >=20 > I'm aware of large scale enterprises that do bubble up to a single > cluster per region, > where region is at a continental scale. If use my local DNS > infrastructure, for example, > the queries will come from New Jersey. I am three time zones away. Then the enterprise is being stupid unless all traffic funnels through = the same gateway: Not only is it hurting CDN performance, but it is = hurting ALL performance, for no real benefit. DNS doesn't work well when your cache is 200ms or more away... >=20 > No. If a recursive resolver turns this on globally, it will offer the = option to > every authoritative server (see section 4.1 of the draft) and it will = pass > the FAMILY and ADDRESS fields. That information will get passed to > every authoritative server, whether that server is localizing or not. = That's > the wasted bits/data leakage issue I mentioned. But what I am saying is that for 1st party resolvers, BECAUSE the CDN = tricks work already, this information is already effectively available = for all authorities, this would just give comparable information for the = OpenDNS users rather than the Comcast users, or Napanet users, or = corporate customers, or.... If this information leakage wasn't already there for the 1st party = resolvers, the CDN tricks would never have been developed. This = formalizes the information leakage for 3rd party resolvers. >> c: Where they don't route the DNS requests through the proxy >>=20 >=20 > Not all proxy deployments permit the DNS request to be routed through > the proxy. SOCKS does, IIRC, its part of the protocol. That firefox doesn't = actually do this by default is IMO, a firefox bug. >=20 >> d: Somehow care about privacy despite using a 3rd party DNS service = which they explicitly opted-into using in the first place! >>=20 >> We can tell A and B, we can't tell C, or D >>=20 >> For B: Use a proxy that is in their web browser setting (rather than = forced by the network) + use OpenDNS: .77%. Yes, shockingly high, but = OpenDNS really is overrepresented in our dataset. >>=20 >> A will take a fair bit more work to answer, I need to start thinking = on this. >>=20 >=20 > You still seem to be missing the mobile IP case, where there is a = long-lived > tunnel to a home network but a portion of the traffic is originated = from a local > IP. Route your DNS through the same portal as your tunnel: If you're tunneling your web traffic, tunnel the associated DNS. Puts = them on the same privacy footing. If you aren't tunneling your web traffic, why in god's name are you = tunneling your DNS? >>=20 >=20 > You are equating the terms of use for a service provider with the = protocol > mechanics; someone could deploy a 3rd party service with an explicit = statement > that the query logs were kept in /dev/null. Presumably such a service > would never > use this option, but there might well be other solutions which met the > authoritative > servers need and they would be willing to use. Anything in which the = server > was willing to provide the mapping information of networks to = responders (along > with a TTL) would have no privacy implication for the individual and = would > additionally pre-populate the cache of exactly the data this would = provide. Assuming you believe them to implement this policy. If you want = privacy, you need to build systems that create this policy REGARDLESS of = the behavior of the remote services. TOR is a system which enforces privacy. You could build a DNS system = which enforces privacy using TOR. =20 But current DNS leaks it all over the place, in many cases you already = see down to individual institution or small ISP as the authorities & = path to authorities. Using your institution or ISP's recursive resolver = already sprays this level of information that we are talking about all = over. And third-party DNS really makes it worse in aggregate, because = although the authorities see less due to aggregation, the third party = sees all. And the problem is, ANY "network mapping of requestor" will probably = violate your privacy scruples: Its not possible, the search space is = too small for hashing and the like tricks to work, and it needs to be = clear to both the final authority AND all authorities on the query path = (due to the DNS nature) unless you want to add RTTs in an operation = designed to minimize RTT latency. You can talk about ideals all you want, but the application to be solved = can NOT be solved within existing DNS without this or a near equivalent = privacy leakage. The only OTHER option would be to have the authority's response contain = netmask rules and force the CDN processing onto the recursive resolver, = which would be a huge shift in burden. > Someone once called protocol development as an exercise at deciding = whose > ox gets gored. Goring the privacy of someone who doesn't get to be a = party to > the protocol exchange in which the data is distributed doesn't strike = me as a > good idea. Since you've already called me delusional on this point, I = doubt > my own ideas convince you. But I point you to the work of GEOPRIV as = an > existence proof that the IETF as a whole at least once cared about a = similar > issue (and given the services which correlate IP to location, one = which is > a lot closer than the proposal on the table admits). You are trying to "protect" the privacy of those who have explicitly and = willingly given it up already to a major third party. They have already = been a party to willingly giving up their privacy, so if you are going = to gore anyone, it should be them. And if you are really concerned about privacy, I'd look at web = analytics, that is far far FAR FAR more evil in spraying information = around and there IS no opt-out other than technical countermeasures! = You are worried about a paper cut (subnet of requester in a DNS message = using third party DNS infrastructures) when there is arterial bleeding = going on. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Feb 1 21:36:00 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01CCF3A69FE; Mon, 1 Feb 2010 21:36:00 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Duxf8Q0FpgvW; Mon, 1 Feb 2010 21:35:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16FCE3A69CB; Mon, 1 Feb 2010 21:35:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NcBFU-000EB4-6A for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 05:24:28 +0000 Received: from [209.85.218.223] (helo=mail-bw0-f223.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NcBFR-000E9n-OM for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 05:24:25 +0000 Received: by bwz23 with SMTP id 23so265915bwz.1 for ; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 21:24:24 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=SNOGUhPldiYTTsQcOLfbdW2CMSngCDbUGXR7AuXG4h8=; b=GG18Nx+vK37WnHy02SzGAMYXaGNdpbLuGCqztAqoDQqiGF8/CwNOe/k+6A5FfAMa32 eOMAD4BnkWelALxmwlyWUThpBvW41q9WYfE39iPsluTklXUK5dPkESPvt2QNu6HFMyd5 1t+PdO2US9m8c0gTNF3sfELaKA59IzHPj4oYc= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=QuNxGngBrS5q9lnrDXlipV0ivzczD1qiQEOe/cXGr+1NQXMqydGudhdLnv1TWTY61C 2oUEzTqZP8e7qW2GNe26pUXYXDTruWTH7U37/u/h237Y/WVGbqEzFMfoa+NWUKM8sJn/ QOCZc6KwtOFLjycfa6ACicdoUQcrSyZ+4q9po= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.204.10.146 with SMTP id p18mr65383bkp.94.1265088264305; Mon, 01 Feb 2010 21:24:24 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <4966825a1002010729m32b5ccfel94f7cb09d8b5e458@mail.gmail.com> References: <7c31c8cc1001271556w4918093er6e94e07cb92c4dc4@mail.gmail.com> <4B66E441.6090104@nic.cz> <4966825a1002010729m32b5ccfel94f7cb09d8b5e458@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2010 01:24:24 -0400 Message-ID: <3e1abd2c1002012124t4e85dd17j79286d4853eefb2e@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [dnsext] Re: I-D ACTION:draft-vandergaast-edns-client-ip-00.txt From: Brian Dickson To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=00032555937a9a7dd3047e975069 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: --00032555937a9a7dd3047e975069 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Leaving aside the questions on privacy, opt-in/opt-out, coherence, etc., here are some observations I have: This proposes putting an incremental level of work onto the recursive resolver, regardless of where it is. This raises the question of how to scale the actual amount of work, versus the benefit (real or perceived) by the resolver and the resolvers' clients. If, in order to populate a cache with "all" of the relevant entries, for each leaf on the DNS tree exploiting this option, it takes N queries/answers, this scales poorly. However, let's consider a slightly modified arrangement. What if the answer included not only the "matching" prefix/length, but also some (perhaps negotiated) additional entries of prefix/length, for which the same answer would be provided? This would reduce by at least an order of magnitude the time/bandwidth needed to populate such a cache. There would then be the question of the additional computational cost, vis a vis sorting the answers and hashing them or otherwise putting them into a meaningful data structure. What if the standard for this, also specified the order of members of the returned set of prefixes? This would reduce or eliminate the requirement to process the results by sorting them, if the order were search-friendly. This would also reduce the incremental CPU load by at least an order of magnitude. Lowering all of time/bandwidth/CPU would perhaps make this at least palatable (or palletable for the upgrades needed :-)) (There would then be the question of how much data to return, and/or how to signal/negotiate that, etc., and the potential for abuse, e.g. multiplier attacks) Comments? Brian Dickson (after a long absence ;-)) --00032555937a9a7dd3047e975069 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Leaving aside the questions on privacy, opt-in/opt-out, coherence, etc., he= re are some observations I have:

This proposes putting an incrementa= l level of work onto the recursive resolver, regardless of where it is.

This raises the question of how to scale the actual amount of work, ver= sus the benefit (real or perceived) by the resolver and the resolvers' = clients.

If, in order to populate a cache with "all" of th= e relevant entries, for each leaf on the DNS tree exploiting this option, i= t takes N queries/answers, this scales poorly.

However, let's consider a slightly modified arrangement.

Wha= t if the answer included not only the "matching" prefix/length, b= ut also some (perhaps negotiated) additional entries of prefix/length, for = which the same answer would be provided?

This would reduce by at least an order of magnitude the time/bandwidth = needed to populate such a cache.

There would then be the question of= the additional computational cost, vis a vis sorting the answers and hashi= ng them or otherwise putting them into a meaningful data structure.

What if the standard for this, also specified the order of members of t= he returned set of prefixes? This would reduce or eliminate the requirement= to process the results by sorting them, if the order were search-friendly.=

This would also reduce the incremental CPU load by at least an order of= magnitude.

Lowering all of time/bandwidth/CPU would perhaps make th= is at least palatable (or palletable for the upgrades needed :-))

(There would then be the question of how much data to return, and/or how to= signal/negotiate that, etc., and the potential for abuse, e.g. multiplier = attacks)

Comments?

Brian Dickson
(after a long absence ;-)= )
--00032555937a9a7dd3047e975069-- From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Feb 1 22:51:39 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08DFD3A6800; Mon, 1 Feb 2010 22:51:39 -0800 (PST) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Duplicate header field: "Message-ID" X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.547 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.547 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=3.248, BAYES_00=-2.599, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER=0.803, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id L3hBZov+soKz; Mon, 1 Feb 2010 22:51:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C19F3A67F3; Mon, 1 Feb 2010 22:51:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NcCVh-0002v3-Of for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 06:45:17 +0000 Received: from [159.226.7.146] (helo=cnnic.cn) by psg.com with smtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NcCVX-0002t9-Ry for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 06:45:08 +0000 Received: (eyou send program); Tue, 02 Feb 2010 14:45:05 +0800 Message-ID: <465093105.01956@cnnic.cn> X-EYOUMAIL-SMTPAUTH: yaojk@cnnic.cn Received: from unknown (HELO yaojk) (127.0.0.1) by 127.0.0.1 with SMTP; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 14:45:05 +0800 Message-ID: <006601caa3d3$410f9e50$ca29ab73@YaoJK> From: "Yao Jiankang" To: "Andrew Sullivan" , References: <463835146.17646@cnnic.cn> Subject: Re: [dnsext] WG virtual interim meeting 2010-02-16 15:00 UTC Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2010 14:45:02 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3598 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3350 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andrew Sullivan" To: Sent: Tuesday, January 19, 2010 12:58 AM Subject: [dnsext] WG virtual interim meeting 2010-02-16 15:00 UTC > Dear colleagues, > > I-Ds for consideration at meeting due 2010-02-02 I have sent a new draft: http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-yao-dnsext-identical-resolution-00.txt Problem Statement for Identical DNS Resolution of Bundle Names Abstract This document specifies the problems related to the identical resolution of bundle DNS names. With the emergence of internationalized domain names, two names with the same meaning or visual similarity sometimes require the identical resolution. Current DNS protocols have not provided such ability to satisfy these requirements. Yao Jiankang From dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Tue Feb 2 00:11:20 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A85F728C103 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 00:11:20 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -36.761 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-36.761 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR=2.426, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_SBL=20, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TfYASe1i0MEQ for ; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 00:11:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from ppp-124-120-65-87.revip2.asianet.co.th (ppp-124-120-65-87.revip2.asianet.co.th [124.120.65.87]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4494228C138 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 00:11:16 -0800 (PST) From: Oksana To: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: I fell in love with you as soon as I saw your picture! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20100202081117.4494228C138@core3.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2010 00:11:16 -0800 (PST)

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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Feb 2 01:47:40 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E83A28C239; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 01:47:40 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.505 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.505 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.094, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8ykWekGot-bv; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 01:47:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D49CE28C0F3; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 01:47:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NcFF5-0006JW-6p for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 09:40:19 +0000 Received: from [195.54.233.65] (helo=hutch.rfc1035.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NcFF2-0006Ig-Lb for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 09:40:16 +0000 Received: from gromit.rfc1035.com (gromit.rfc1035.com [195.54.233.69]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: jim) by hutch.rfc1035.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 1176F154283B; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 09:40:14 +0000 (GMT) Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Message-Id: <69BCEF10-1F85-431D-9328-B44D216D59E2@rfc1035.com> From: Jim Reid To: Nicholas Weaver In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v936) Subject: Re: [dnsext] Privacy vs EDNS Client IP... Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2010 09:40:13 +0000 References: <7c31c8cc1001271556w4918093er6e94e07cb92c4dc4@mail.gmail.com> <74DFF61A-A8BB-4B46-A873-F2407C34C412@sackheads.org> <139D0D6A-5A31-4EE8-88B9-3CACE933187B@icsi.berkeley.edu> <6e04e83a1002010944q7abfabc6h892ce4cbb1bddcbf@mail.gmail.com> <973B1F15-E822-491E-89BF-F09FC7E67509@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> <6e04e83a1002011109u1cd55c99k8b584648184cdc73@mail.gmail.com> <162E0DB1-EC86-4206-AB36-6FEFA786B24C@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> <6e04e83a1002011402u395f599g74180d28fdbe5707@mail.gmail.com> <6e04e83a1002011640t1b637e30gd7d0150eeb0fae8d@mail.gmail.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.936) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On 2 Feb 2010, at 02:51, Nicholas Weaver wrote: > You could build a DNS system which enforces privacy using TOR. True. And perhaps someone's already done that. However this would be a disproportionate and excessive way to get round a resolving server which sends extra client data to a CDN's name servers just so they can do stupid DNS tricks. And no doubt mine that extra data for who knows what. Besides, introducing TOR or VPNs or SOCKS tunnels or whatever to make the DNS work better -- for some definition of better -- will create new failure modes and operational complexity => adding more instability into a core protocol. > And if you are really concerned about privacy, I'd look at web > analytics, that is far far FAR FAR more evil in spraying information > around and there IS no opt-out other than technical countermeasures! That's a discussion for another place. > You are worried about a paper cut (subnet of requester in a DNS > message using third party DNS infrastructures) when there is > arterial bleeding going on. Maybe. But to continue with your analogy this WG gets to deal with paper cuts while arterial bleeding is handled elsewhere, even if it is by some members of this WG. Your comments about DNS and privacy are all very well. IMO they don't mean that the WG should ignore the privacy concerns arising from new drafts or that the WG should endorse stuff that exacerbate those concerns. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Feb 2 03:41:16 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 907DC3A6902; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 03:41:16 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.237 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.237 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.012, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id L44RN2jik8FK; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 03:41:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E23A03A67F0; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 03:41:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NcH1V-0000Xc-Az for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 11:34:25 +0000 Received: from [2001:660:3003:2::4:11] (helo=mx2.nic.fr) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NcH1S-0000X6-HV for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 11:34:22 +0000 Received: from mx2.nic.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mx2.nic.fr (Postfix) with SMTP id 590241C0134; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 12:34:21 +0100 (CET) Received: from relay2.nic.fr (relay2.nic.fr [192.134.4.163]) by mx2.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54C271C012B; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 12:34:21 +0100 (CET) Received: from bortzmeyer.nic.fr (batilda.nic.fr [192.134.4.69]) by relay2.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48D1B7B0034; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 12:34:21 +0100 (CET) Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2010 12:34:21 +0100 From: Stephane Bortzmeyer To: Carlo Contavalli Cc: Ond??ej =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sur=FD?= , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: [dnsext] EDNS client IP should be opt-in (Was: I-D ACTION:draft-vandergaast-edns-client-ip-00.txt Message-ID: <20100202113421.GA31244@nic.fr> References: <7c31c8cc1001271556w4918093er6e94e07cb92c4dc4@mail.gmail.com> <4B66E441.6090104@nic.cz> <4966825a1002010729m32b5ccfel94f7cb09d8b5e458@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4966825a1002010729m32b5ccfel94f7cb09d8b5e458@mail.gmail.com> X-Operating-System: Debian GNU/Linux 5.0.3 X-Kernel: Linux 2.6.26-2-686 i686 Organization: NIC France X-URL: http://www.nic.fr/ User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On Mon, Feb 01, 2010 at 03:29:39PM +0000, Carlo Contavalli wrote a message of 44 lines which said: > recursive resolvers do not have to implement edns-client-ip, and > they do not have to turn it on. Yes, they have to, if they want to keep the SAME level of privacy as today (not solve every privacy problem, just keep the CURRENT level). That's the biggest problem with the proposal. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Feb 2 03:59:56 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 072203A6936; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 03:59:56 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.94 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.94 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.038, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9FEvi-MzAs4B; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 03:59:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 431CE3A6935; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 03:59:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NcHLw-0004LQ-R0 for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 11:55:32 +0000 Received: from [216.239.44.51] (helo=smtp-out.google.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NcHLu-0004Ky-BU for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 11:55:30 +0000 Received: from spaceape9.eur.corp.google.com (spaceape9.eur.corp.google.com [172.28.16.143]) by smtp-out.google.com with ESMTP id o12BtSEc024510 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 03:55:29 -0800 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=beta; t=1265111729; bh=dq51F5Kn2qNHZ+zEH9oHFXcRW3Y=; h=MIME-Version:In-Reply-To:References:From:Date:Message-ID:Subject: To:Cc:Content-Type; b=IpyJFbmZ0ILMEs32NWSi/gYKZla+7shdVyN9nv6GciMteG69GrlyDMBWd7Es2Ilpd pJXtQ5hHYAz3ngXYzI+eQ== DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=beta; d=google.com; c=nofws; q=dns; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id: subject:to:cc:content-type:x-system-of-record; b=vR1HeSob1blAc4E/U5cR5COuoP7YN/eJY0J95X0QV7RfU7/p4NTaDxuloc0WLjTdk +rfaeCOWmsoCkZFwKWIHA== Received: from pzk1 (pzk1.prod.google.com [10.243.19.129]) by spaceape9.eur.corp.google.com with ESMTP id o12BtQgN009063 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 03:55:27 -0800 Received: by pzk1 with SMTP id 1so238359pzk.16 for ; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 03:55:26 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.143.25.22 with SMTP id c22mr445288wfj.195.1265111725151; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 03:55:25 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <20100202113421.GA31244@nic.fr> References: <7c31c8cc1001271556w4918093er6e94e07cb92c4dc4@mail.gmail.com> <4B66E441.6090104@nic.cz> <4966825a1002010729m32b5ccfel94f7cb09d8b5e458@mail.gmail.com> <20100202113421.GA31244@nic.fr> From: Carlo Contavalli Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2010 11:55:05 +0000 Message-ID: <4966825a1002020355s41a182edvbc2fc8045af4a36e@mail.gmail.com> Subject: [dnsext] Re: EDNS client IP should be opt-in (Was: I-D ACTION:draft-vandergaast-edns-client-ip-00.txt To: Stephane Bortzmeyer Cc: =?ISO-8859-1?B?T25kPz9laiBTdXL9?= , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-System-Of-Record: true Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 11:34 AM, Stephane Bortzmeyer wrote: >> recursive resolvers do not have to implement edns-client-ip, and >> they do not have to turn it on. > > Yes, they have to, if they want to keep the SAME level of privacy as > today (not solve every privacy problem, just keep the CURRENT > level). That's the biggest problem with the proposal. I sincerely do not understand this comment. If you don't enable the option, you keep the SAME level of privacy as of today (eg, no client-ip information is forwarded to other name servers). If, as someone running a recursive resolver, you have a contract with your users that allows you to do so and decide the "reduced privacy" is worth the benefit for your users, you CAN enable the option if you WANT to. And again, this is more of a policy discussion. See my other email. Carlo From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Feb 2 04:51:58 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E73DC3A6926; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 04:51:58 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_23=0.6, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id keI3G3rAgjp6; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 04:51:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0C923A6921; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 04:51:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NcI9l-000Dp7-Ho for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 12:47:01 +0000 Received: from [2001:1488:800:400::400] (helo=mail.nic.cz) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NcI9g-000DoO-LJ for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 12:46:56 +0000 Received: from [IPv6:2001:1488:ac14:1400:224:e8ff:fea9:f617] (unknown [IPv6:2001:1488:ac14:1400:224:e8ff:fea9:f617]) by mail.nic.cz (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 9FC3D7344A5; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 13:46:49 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <4B681EB5.9040403@nic.cz> Date: Tue, 02 Feb 2010 13:46:45 +0100 From: =?UTF-8?B?T25kxZllaiBTdXLDvQ==?= User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.9.1.7) Gecko/20100111 Lightning/1.0b1 Thunderbird/3.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Carlo Contavalli CC: Stephane Bortzmeyer , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: [dnsext] Re: EDNS client IP should be opt-in (Was: I-D ACTION:draft-vandergaast-edns-client-ip-00.txt References: <7c31c8cc1001271556w4918093er6e94e07cb92c4dc4@mail.gmail.com> <4B66E441.6090104@nic.cz> <4966825a1002010729m32b5ccfel94f7cb09d8b5e458@mail.gmail.com> <20100202113421.GA31244@nic.fr> <4966825a1002020355s41a182edvbc2fc8045af4a36e@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <4966825a1002020355s41a182edvbc2fc8045af4a36e@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On 2.2.2010 12:55, Carlo Contavalli wrote: > On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 11:34 AM, Stephane Bortzmeyer wrote: >>> recursive resolvers do not have to implement edns-client-ip, and >>> they do not have to turn it on. >> >> Yes, they have to, if they want to keep the SAME level of privacy as >> today (not solve every privacy problem, just keep the CURRENT >> level). That's the biggest problem with the proposal. > I sincerely do not understand this comment. Any recursive resolver end-user or any resolver using forward resolvers have to implement edns-client-ip to be able to send 0.0.0.0/0, otherwise they cannot keep SAME level of privacy as today. > If you don't enable the option, you keep the SAME level of privacy as > of today (eg, no client-ip information is forwarded to other name > servers). But we are not speaking about recursive resolver providers, but about users. > If, as someone running a recursive resolver, you have a contract with > your users that allows you to do so and decide the "reduced privacy" > is worth the benefit for your users, you CAN enable the option if you > WANT to. Well I can very easily imagine some big ISP turning this option on without asking their clients. Ondrej -- Ondřej Surý vedoucí výzkumu/R&D manager ------------------------------------------- CZ.NIC, z.s.p.o. -- Laboratoře CZ.NIC Americka 23, 120 00 Praha 2, Czech Republic mailto:ondrej.sury@nic.cz http://nic.cz/ tel:+420.222745110 fax:+420.222745112 ------------------------------------------- From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Feb 2 04:53:15 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 857F53A6926; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 04:53:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.238 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.238 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.011, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nUoKBbMpeMNZ; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 04:53:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C83753A6920; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 04:53:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NcI9w-000Dr0-0Q for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 12:47:12 +0000 Received: from [2001:660:3003:2::4:11] (helo=mx2.nic.fr) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NcI9t-000DqI-Ez for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 12:47:09 +0000 Received: from mx2.nic.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mx2.nic.fr (Postfix) with SMTP id 8F63B1C0159; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 13:47:08 +0100 (CET) Received: from relay2.nic.fr (relay2.nic.fr [192.134.4.163]) by mx2.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B7471C0113; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 13:47:08 +0100 (CET) Received: from bortzmeyer.nic.fr (batilda.nic.fr [192.134.4.69]) by relay2.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8932C7B0034; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 13:47:08 +0100 (CET) Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2010 13:47:08 +0100 From: Stephane Bortzmeyer To: Carlo Contavalli Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: [dnsext] Re: EDNS client IP should be opt-in (Was: I-D ACTION:draft-vandergaast-edns-client-ip-00.txt Message-ID: <20100202124708.GA8477@nic.fr> References: <7c31c8cc1001271556w4918093er6e94e07cb92c4dc4@mail.gmail.com> <4B66E441.6090104@nic.cz> <4966825a1002010729m32b5ccfel94f7cb09d8b5e458@mail.gmail.com> <20100202113421.GA31244@nic.fr> <4966825a1002020355s41a182edvbc2fc8045af4a36e@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4966825a1002020355s41a182edvbc2fc8045af4a36e@mail.gmail.com> X-Operating-System: Debian GNU/Linux 5.0.3 X-Kernel: Linux 2.6.26-2-686 i686 Organization: NIC France X-URL: http://www.nic.fr/ User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On Tue, Feb 02, 2010 at 11:55:05AM +0000, Carlo Contavalli wrote a message of 21 lines which said: > > Yes, they have to, if they want to keep the SAME level of privacy > > as today (not solve every privacy problem, just keep the CURRENT > > level). That's the biggest problem with the proposal. > I sincerely do not understand this comment. I rewrote it, trying to make it clearer: Today, if an end-client (the user's machine) wants to keep the SAME level of privacy as today (not solving every privacy problem, just keeping the CURRENT level), this end-client has to add a dummy edns-client-ip with the wildcard address 0.0.0.0/0 (section 8.1). Otherwise, the resolver may, without the consent of the user, add a real edns-client-ip (section 4.1) revealing the end-client address. So, EDNS client IP indication is opt-out but should be opt-in. And end-clients (stub resolvers) must be upgraded to opt-out. That's the biggest problem with the proposal. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Feb 2 05:00:02 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF6183A685A; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 05:00:02 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.516 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.516 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.083, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VhbmEXBx15vm; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 05:00:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2AB593A67AF; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 05:00:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NcIIQ-000FYD-H7 for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 12:55:58 +0000 Received: from [195.54.233.65] (helo=hutch.rfc1035.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NcIIM-000FWx-LC for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 12:55:54 +0000 Received: from gromit.rfc1035.com (gromit.rfc1035.com [195.54.233.69]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: jim) by hutch.rfc1035.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 72BBA154283B; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 12:55:52 +0000 (GMT) Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Message-Id: <5925D875-FCC0-4B7C-92A1-53D21E7D5B77@rfc1035.com> From: Jim Reid To: Carlo Contavalli In-Reply-To: <4966825a1002020355s41a182edvbc2fc8045af4a36e@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v936) Subject: [dnsext] opt-in and draft-vandergaast-edns-client-ip-00.txt Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2010 12:55:52 +0000 References: <7c31c8cc1001271556w4918093er6e94e07cb92c4dc4@mail.gmail.com> <4B66E441.6090104@nic.cz> <4966825a1002010729m32b5ccfel94f7cb09d8b5e458@mail.gmail.com> <20100202113421.GA31244@nic.fr> <4966825a1002020355s41a182edvbc2fc8045af4a36e@mail.gmail.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.936) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On 2 Feb 2010, at 11:55, Carlo Contavalli wrote: > If you don't enable the option, you keep the SAME level of privacy as > of today (eg, no client-ip information is forwarded to other name > servers). Define "you". You as a stub resolver may well decide not use the option. But you as their resolving server might do so without the knowledge or consent of your clients. [That's probably illegal in some countries.] Or you as the resolving server changes whatever address info your clients have chosen to disclose before firing their queries at the CDN's name servers. The stub resolver and resolving server will in all likelihood be operated by discrete entities with different privacy expectations and requirements. The draft ignores that. > If, as someone running a recursive resolver, you have a contract with > your users that allows you to do so and decide the "reduced privacy" > is worth the benefit for your users, you CAN enable the option if you > WANT to. This is far too vague. It's very unsatisfactory for a protocol specification. The current draft says nothing about a number of protocol/operational considerations for the three entities involved. For instance, what should a resolving server do if it doesn't support this EDNS option and gets such a query from a stub resolver? What does it do if the resolver server does support the option but the client- provided data is syntactically incorrect or semantically incorrect? What does a resolving server do when it does support the option but has disabled it for local policy reasons? How will these conditions be signalled to the stub resolver? When the resolving server does support this option, is it permitted (or not) to modify the data before sending a query to an authoritative server? If it does mangle that outbound query, how will the stub resolver know that? Or should it? Likewise, what does an authoritative server do if (a) it doesn't support this EDNS0 option (FORMERR? NOTIMP? REFUSED? or just ignore it?); (b) chooses for some reason not to supply an "optimised" response. Can the resolving server mangle the optimised response from the authoritative server (say for local policy reasons) before giving a reply to the stub resolver? > And again, this is more of a policy discussion. Not necessarily. See above. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Feb 2 06:37:57 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65C3028C1BE; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 06:37:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZQ9FPAIrUi+K; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 06:37:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 868FF3A6B10; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 06:36:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NcJnD-0008PY-JI for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 14:31:51 +0000 Received: from [66.92.146.20] (helo=stora.ogud.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NcJnA-0008Oj-PE for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 14:31:49 +0000 Received: from stora.ogud.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by stora.ogud.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o12EVlRV008191 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 09:31:47 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from namedroppers@stora.ogud.com) Received: (from namedroppers@localhost) by stora.ogud.com (8.14.3/8.14.3/Submit) id o12EVlUk008190 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 09:31:47 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from namedroppers) Received: from [213.248.199.24] (helo=mx4.nominet.org.uk) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NcHVp-0006Yn-Ku for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 12:05:45 +0000 DomainKey-Signature: s=main.dk.nominet.selector; d=nominet.org.uk; c=nofws; q=dns; h=X-IronPort-AV:Received:To:Subject:MIME-Version:X-Mailer: Message-ID:From:Date:X-MIMETrack:Content-Type; b=GDL4fmXj++14OAbI5J5fwzUoLOlhjLW5jXk2C6WuuonlcamdjrVokWmk e8rRzg+4/zfVh2+yvC9FdvBnZCzj/oQawHIDhad7CY7sgfEMBrZprCRy2 HSC88xZv8+HYrgs; DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nominet.org.uk; i=Alexd@nominet.org.uk; q=dns/txt; s=main.dkim.nominet.selector; t=1265112345; x=1296648345; h=from:sender:reply-to:subject:date:message-id:to:cc: mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:content-id: content-description:resent-date:resent-from:resent-sender: resent-to:resent-cc:resent-message-id:in-reply-to: references:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe: list-subscribe:list-post:list-owner:list-archive; z=From:=20Alexd@nominet.org.uk|Subject:=20Question=20on=20 NAPTR=20text=20format|Date:=20Tue,=202=20Feb=202010=2012: 05:42=20+0000|Message-ID:=20|To:=20named roppers@ops.ietf.org|MIME-Version:=201.0; bh=mjHUuQhaLLJF9pgO+TZslnWRq0aegy7VfiT5TwMQWuQ=; b=UiZA6WLBpVmG8rUje6mBWzn/2xpUa6Od8PciifKq6tswZCxcARo3maC2 91skk3pXgnYZ1WXwRCEpcMuoOtzxc0RNmgw/KKsXiGcSp01c3smQVOwYG HMXcI6/9bv3T/bT; X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.49,390,1262563200"; d="scan'208";a="15953676" Received: from notes1.nominet.org.uk ([213.248.197.128]) by mx4.nominet.org.uk with ESMTP; 02 Feb 2010 12:05:43 +0000 To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: [dnsext] Question on NAPTR text format MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 8.5 December 05, 2008 Message-ID: From: Alexd@nominet.org.uk Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2010 12:05:42 +0000 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on notes1/Nominet(Release 7.0.1FP1 | May 25, 2006) at 02/02/2010 12:05:42 PM, Serialize complete at 02/02/2010 12:05:42 PM Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_alternative 004271B3802576BE_=" X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.67 on 66.92.146.20 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: [ Moderators note: Post was moderated, either because it was posted by a non-subscriber, or because it was over 20K. With the massive amount of spam, it is easy to miss and therefore delete relevant posts by non-subscribers. Please fix your subscription addresses. ] This is a multipart message in MIME format. --=_alternative 004271B3802576BE_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Hi - I'm hoping somebody can please help me understand how to treat the following text in a NAPTR/TXT record : "blah\2blah" We have from RFC 1035 : \X where X is any character other than a digit (0-9), is used to quote that character so that its special meaning does not apply. For example, "\." can be used to place a dot character in a label. and \DDD where each D is a digit is the octet corresponding to the decimal number described by DDD. The resulting octet is assumed to be text and is not checked for special meaning. So what happens if there is only one digit, instead of three? (i.e. \D) Should this be taken as : 1) a one digit decimal number specifying an octet between 0 and 9 (e.g. \002) 2) the number character itself (e.g. '2') 3) an error? I've noticed that different libraries take different views on this, and thought it would be nice to have more common behaviour. Thanks in advance for your help! Alex. --=_alternative 004271B3802576BE_= Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Hi -

I'm hoping somebody can please help me understand how to treat the following text in a NAPTR/TXT record  :

"blah\2blah"

We have from RFC 1035 :

\X              where X is any character other than a digit (0-9), is
              used to quote that character so that its special meaning
              does not apply.  For example, "\." can be used to place
              a dot character in a label.

and

\DDD            where each D is a digit is the octet corresponding to
              the decimal number described by DDD.  The resulting
              octet is assumed to be text and is not checked for
              special meaning.

So what happens if there is only one digit, instead of three? (i.e. \D)

Should this be taken as :

1) a one digit decimal number specifying an octet between 0 and 9 (e.g. \002)
2) the number character itself (e.g. '2')
3) an error?

I've noticed that different libraries take different views on this, and thought it would be nice to have more common behaviour.

Thanks in advance for your help!


Alex.
--=_alternative 004271B3802576BE_=-- From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Feb 2 06:41:00 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EAB443A67AF; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 06:41:00 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rnZrpxhbvF8L; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 06:41:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E97393A6919; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 06:40:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NcJmd-0008Fi-0b for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; 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Mon, 1 Feb 2010 17:07:11 -0500 (EST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=haybaler; d=sackheads.org; c=nofws; q=dns; h=dkim-signature:subject:mime-version:content-type:from: in-reply-to:date:cc:content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to:x-mailer; b=KyQ9ItczkZLSWcsFIqrTrhOyQO3FYwLbzcityjbrralNxtGjRNhSYRxN2TO7p68jg IiCGfEedAJQgWwCHMse9w+8QFsJzP5Jtu3Q3oDC0it4HdZb5p+0oogSRTGYLu6Ge0rp YpDOoPucAAVcAIKUmBYQLUS5+w89amXIBugqycs= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=sackheads.org; s=haybaler; t=1265062031; bh=8ZnOI+ozpjFCV3w9ZT/LbTxvzBAPSklbdU+RkACjgQQ=; h=Subject:Mime-Version:Content-Type:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc: Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-Id:References:To; b=YJUDX+J2cY131dpDqZ4R9CiwKPicrZYOJ8qc8hqyM0L2xXinL7vkt6tIhT+9S30A6 QdRenNS4BaXPm6Dm2jvmR2V8YWTmyeL4/Z+5jAtjDJk8MNP0tPg4sns7wDvqmR/ADP Vtky367XJwIOO2ErYyYKhgNUh2ZgrblNCXEQKwcU= Subject: Re: [dnsext] Re: I-D ACTION:draft-vandergaast-edns-client-ip-00.txt Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: John Payne In-Reply-To: <6e04e83a1002011402u395f599g74180d28fdbe5707@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2010 17:07:11 -0500 Cc: Nicholas Weaver , Roy Arends , Wilmer van der Gaast , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <939BB577-FDBE-4573-9129-8CA29B0FB493@sackheads.org> References: <7c31c8cc1001271556w4918093er6e94e07cb92c4dc4@mail.gmail.com> <74DFF61A-A8BB-4B46-A873-F2407C34C412@sackheads.org> <139D0D6A-5A31-4EE8-88B9-3CACE933187B@icsi.berkeley.edu> <6e04e83a1002010944q7abfabc6h892ce4cbb1bddcbf@mail.gmail.com> <973B1F15-E822-491E-89BF-F09FC7E67509@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> <6e04e83a1002011109u1cd55c99k8b584648184cdc73@mail.gmail.com> <162E0DB1-EC86-4206-AB36-6FEFA786B24C@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> <6e04e83a1002011402u395f599g74180d28fdbe5707@mail.gmail.com> To: Ted Hardie X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.67 on 66.92.146.20 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: [ Moderators note: Post was moderated, either because it was posted by a non-subscriber, or because it was over 20K. With the massive amount of spam, it is easy to miss and therefore delete relevant posts by non-subscribers. Please fix your subscription addresses. ] On Feb 1, 2010, at 5:02 PM, Ted Hardie wrote: >=20 > Please re-read what I said. I recognize the value of DNS-based = localization, > but there is still an 80/20 rule to it. This adds complexity to parts = of the > system outside the authoritative systems that want to use these = responses, > and it is not clear that it is worth it from either a performance or = privacy > perspective. Yes, it adds complexity to the recursive nameservers _that want to send = the information_. 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------=_NextPart_000_044C_01CAA41C.762CFDA0-- From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Feb 2 08:29:54 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93E7228C0E7; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 08:29:54 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.239 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.239 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.010, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xikbBQR5-uUj; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 08:29:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9336F28B23E; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 08:29:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NcLVg-000956-7f for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 16:21:52 +0000 Received: from [2001:660:3003:2::4:11] (helo=mx2.nic.fr) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NcLVY-00092B-Mq for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 16:21:45 +0000 Received: from mx2.nic.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mx2.nic.fr (Postfix) with SMTP id 833371C0187; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 17:21:41 +0100 (CET) Received: from relay2.nic.fr (relay2.nic.fr [192.134.4.163]) by mx2.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EC9C1C015E; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 17:21:41 +0100 (CET) Received: from bortzmeyer.nic.fr (batilda.nic.fr [192.134.4.69]) by relay2.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C8BE7B0034; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 17:21:41 +0100 (CET) Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2010 17:21:41 +0100 From: Stephane Bortzmeyer To: John Payne Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: [dnsext] Re: I-D ACTION:draft-vandergaast-edns-client-ip-00.txt Message-ID: <20100202162141.GA8636@nic.fr> References: <7c31c8cc1001271556w4918093er6e94e07cb92c4dc4@mail.gmail.com> <74DFF61A-A8BB-4B46-A873-F2407C34C412@sackheads.org> <139D0D6A-5A31-4EE8-88B9-3CACE933187B@icsi.berkeley.edu> <6e04e83a1002010944q7abfabc6h892ce4cbb1bddcbf@mail.gmail.com> <973B1F15-E822-491E-89BF-F09FC7E67509@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> <6e04e83a1002011109u1cd55c99k8b584648184cdc73@mail.gmail.com> <162E0DB1-EC86-4206-AB36-6FEFA786B24C@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> <6e04e83a1002011402u395f599g74180d28fdbe5707@mail.gmail.com> <939BB577-FDBE-4573-9129-8CA29B0FB493@sackheads.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <939BB577-FDBE-4573-9129-8CA29B0FB493@sackheads.org> X-Operating-System: Debian GNU/Linux 5.0.3 X-Kernel: Linux 2.6.26-2-686 i686 Organization: NIC France X-URL: http://www.nic.fr/ User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On Mon, Feb 01, 2010 at 05:07:11PM -0500, John Payne wrote a message of 24 lines which said: > Yes, it adds complexity to the recursive nameservers _that want to send the information_. > > Where else is it adding any complexity? In the stub resolvers that _do not want_ to send the information. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Feb 2 08:51:27 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 390BE3A68D9; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 08:51:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.524 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.524 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.075, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lY-bwSWEZNTJ; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 08:51:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F11B3A68C5; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 08:51:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NcLtp-000Dgp-92 for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 16:46:49 +0000 Received: from [195.54.233.65] (helo=hutch.rfc1035.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NcLtm-000Dg7-7t for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 16:46:46 +0000 Received: from gromit.rfc1035.com (gromit.rfc1035.com [195.54.233.69]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: jim) by hutch.rfc1035.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 49990154283D; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 16:46:42 +0000 (GMT) Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Message-Id: <7B06A582-38E3-4387-BA16-932825A4A62B@rfc1035.com> From: Jim Reid To: John Payne In-Reply-To: <939BB577-FDBE-4573-9129-8CA29B0FB493@sackheads.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v936) Subject: Re: [dnsext] draft-vandergaast-edns-client-ip-00.txt Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2010 16:46:41 +0000 References: <7c31c8cc1001271556w4918093er6e94e07cb92c4dc4@mail.gmail.com> <74DFF61A-A8BB-4B46-A873-F2407C34C412@sackheads.org> <139D0D6A-5A31-4EE8-88B9-3CACE933187B@icsi.berkeley.edu> <6e04e83a1002010944q7abfabc6h892ce4cbb1bddcbf@mail.gmail.com> <973B1F15-E822-491E-89BF-F09FC7E67509@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> <6e04e83a1002011109u1cd55c99k8b584648184cdc73@mail.gmail.com> <162E0DB1-EC86-4206-AB36-6FEFA786B24C@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> <6e04e83a1002011402u395f599g74180d28fdbe5707@mail.gmail.com> <939BB577-FDBE-4573-9129-8CA29B0FB493@sackheads.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.936) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On 1 Feb 2010, at 22:07, John Payne wrote: > Yes, it adds complexity to the recursive nameservers _that want to > send the information_. > > Where else is it adding any complexity? [1] Stub resolvers that don't want their address info disclosed. Or those who may want to send that info (how??) but are talking to resolving servers who don't. Or the resolving servers tamper with that data whenever they query the authoritative server(s). Or choose to mangle whatever is returned as the optimised response. [2] Authoritative servers who can't/won't speak this EDNS0 option. The draft does not specify how they should behave. Another Bad Idea in this draft is the concept of not using these extended queries to root and TLD servers. [Ironically, this is one place where "optimised" addresses in responses could be useful by directing resolvers to the nearest server for a referral.] It's not a good idea IMO to constrain a particular protocol query format to certain parts of the name space or an arbitrary number of labels in the QNAME. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Feb 2 08:58:59 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1AEAB3A6964; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 08:58:59 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.977 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.977 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xGVYij4Gw32l; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 08:58:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57DA53A6958; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 08:58:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NcM3G-000Fic-Ec for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 16:56:34 +0000 Received: from [209.85.216.204] (helo=mail-px0-f204.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NcM3B-000Fgz-0q for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 16:56:29 +0000 Received: by pxi42 with SMTP id 42so469597pxi.5 for ; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 08:56:28 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.115.112.8 with SMTP id p8mr4177506wam.136.1265129788471; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 08:56:28 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <5925D875-FCC0-4B7C-92A1-53D21E7D5B77@rfc1035.com> References: <7c31c8cc1001271556w4918093er6e94e07cb92c4dc4@mail.gmail.com> <4B66E441.6090104@nic.cz> <4966825a1002010729m32b5ccfel94f7cb09d8b5e458@mail.gmail.com> <20100202113421.GA31244@nic.fr> <4966825a1002020355s41a182edvbc2fc8045af4a36e@mail.gmail.com> <5925D875-FCC0-4B7C-92A1-53D21E7D5B77@rfc1035.com> Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2010 08:56:28 -0800 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [dnsext] opt-in and draft-vandergaast-edns-client-ip-00.txt From: Matthew Dempsky To: Jim Reid Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 4:55 AM, Jim Reid wrote: > For instance, what should a resolving server do if it doesn't support this > EDNS option and gets such a query from a stub resolver? > [...] > What does a resolving > server do when it does support the option but has disabled it for local > policy reasons? > [..] > Likewise, what does an authoritative server do if (a) it doesn't > support this EDNS0 option (FORMERR? NOTIMP? REFUSED? or just ignore it?); > (b) chooses for some reason not to supply an "optimised" response. It would seem a little absurd for an I-D to specify how software that doesn't follow that I-D should behave. Obviously, it behaves however software today behaves already. > Can the > resolving server mangle the optimised response from the authoritative server > (say for local policy reasons) before giving a reply to the stub resolver? > [...] > When the resolving server does support this option, is it permitted (or not) > to modify the data before sending a query to an authoritative server? Of course it can. There's no requirement that resolving servers can't arbitrarily change queries/responses as long as it fulfills the client's requirements. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Feb 2 09:02:24 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 579493A6B1B; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 09:02:24 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.575 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.575 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.024, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TBohCfTPLii0; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 09:02:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A70C3A6958; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 09:02:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NcM11-000FBy-9M for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 16:54:15 +0000 Received: from [192.150.186.11] (helo=fruitcake.ICSI.Berkeley.EDU) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NcM0w-000FAs-6B for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 16:54:10 +0000 Received: from [IPv6:::1] (jack.ICSI.Berkeley.EDU [192.150.186.73]) by fruitcake.ICSI.Berkeley.EDU (8.12.11.20060614/8.12.11) with ESMTP id o12Gs5B9021339; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 08:54:05 -0800 (PST) References: <7c31c8cc1001271556w4918093er6e94e07cb92c4dc4@mail.gmail.com> <74DFF61A-A8BB-4B46-A873-F2407C34C412@sackheads.org> <139D0D6A-5A31-4EE8-88B9-3CACE933187B@icsi.berkeley.edu> <6e04e83a1002010944q7abfabc6h892ce4cbb1bddcbf@mail.gmail.com> <973B1F15-E822-491E-89BF-F09FC7E67509@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> <6e04e83a1002011109u1cd55c99k8b584648184cdc73@mail.gmail.com> <162E0DB1-EC86-4206-AB36-6FEFA786B24C@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> <6e04e83a1002011402u395f599g74180d28fdbe5707@mail.gmail.com> <939BB577-FDBE-4573-9129-8CA29B0FB493@sackheads.org> <20100202162141.GA8636@nic.fr> In-Reply-To: <20100202162141.GA8636@nic.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: Nicholas Weaver , John Payne , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org From: Nicholas Weaver Subject: Re: [dnsext] Re: I-D ACTION:draft-vandergaast-edns-client-ip-00.txt Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2010 08:54:05 -0800 To: Stephane Bortzmeyer X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On Feb 2, 2010, at 8:21 AM, Stephane Bortzmeyer wrote: > On Mon, Feb 01, 2010 at 05:07:11PM -0500, > John Payne wrote=20 > a message of 24 lines which said: >=20 >> Yes, it adds complexity to the recursive nameservers _that want to = send the information_. >>=20 >> Where else is it adding any complexity? >=20 > In the stub resolvers that _do not want_ to send the information. Would the following be acceptable to you? > This technique SHOULD only be used by recursive resolvers where the = end-host or end-host administrator has explicitly selected this = recursive resolver over one automatically selected by the network = provider. That should solve your privacy concerns, because the main usage is for = third party resolvers where the user or network administrator has = already selected its usage, and the terms of service for these providers = invariably allow them to add features like this. Because, frankly speaking, you have to trust that the recursive resolver = isn't shipping a copy of all your requests to the NSA anyway, so a = client-directive is really meaningless for enforcement. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Feb 2 09:12:02 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8DB383A6810; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 09:12:02 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.977 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.977 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3vkPU1usogqQ; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 09:12:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05B7E3A6857; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 09:11:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NcME9-000IAq-4q for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 17:07:49 +0000 Received: from [209.85.216.204] (helo=mail-px0-f204.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NcME5-000IAJ-Nj for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 17:07:45 +0000 Received: by pxi42 with SMTP id 42so489185pxi.5 for ; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 09:07:45 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.114.87.9 with SMTP id k9mr1175466wab.6.1265130464189; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 09:07:44 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <7B06A582-38E3-4387-BA16-932825A4A62B@rfc1035.com> References: <7c31c8cc1001271556w4918093er6e94e07cb92c4dc4@mail.gmail.com> <74DFF61A-A8BB-4B46-A873-F2407C34C412@sackheads.org> <139D0D6A-5A31-4EE8-88B9-3CACE933187B@icsi.berkeley.edu> <6e04e83a1002010944q7abfabc6h892ce4cbb1bddcbf@mail.gmail.com> <973B1F15-E822-491E-89BF-F09FC7E67509@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> <6e04e83a1002011109u1cd55c99k8b584648184cdc73@mail.gmail.com> <162E0DB1-EC86-4206-AB36-6FEFA786B24C@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> <6e04e83a1002011402u395f599g74180d28fdbe5707@mail.gmail.com> <939BB577-FDBE-4573-9129-8CA29B0FB493@sackheads.org> <7B06A582-38E3-4387-BA16-932825A4A62B@rfc1035.com> Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2010 09:07:44 -0800 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [dnsext] draft-vandergaast-edns-client-ip-00.txt From: Matthew Dempsky To: Jim Reid Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 8:46 AM, Jim Reid wrote: > [2] Authoritative servers who can't/won't speak this EDNS0 option. The draft > does not specify how they should behave. Again complaining that a draft doesn't specify how software not following that draft should behave. > Another Bad Idea in this draft is the concept of not using these extended > queries to root and TLD servers. [Ironically, this is one place where > "optimised" addresses in responses could be useful by directing resolvers to > the nearest server for a referral.] The stub resolver's IP address isn't useful when querying zones that only return delegation responses. That data is used by the recursive resolver, not the stub, and authoritative servers already have the recursive resolver's full IP address. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Feb 2 09:17:10 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E9843A6856; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 09:17:10 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.577 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.577 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.022, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XrvAl-jpzeCk; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 09:17:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1DFEB3A6803; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 09:17:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NcMJS-000JYQ-FH for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 17:13:18 +0000 Received: from [192.150.186.11] (helo=fruitcake.ICSI.Berkeley.EDU) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NcMJL-000JXO-4f for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 17:13:11 +0000 Received: from [IPv6:::1] (jack.ICSI.Berkeley.EDU [192.150.186.73]) by fruitcake.ICSI.Berkeley.EDU (8.12.11.20060614/8.12.11) with ESMTP id o12HDAnf023660; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 09:13:10 -0800 (PST) References: <7c31c8cc1001271556w4918093er6e94e07cb92c4dc4@mail.gmail.com> <74DFF61A-A8BB-4B46-A873-F2407C34C412@sackheads.org> <139D0D6A-5A31-4EE8-88B9-3CACE933187B@icsi.berkeley.edu> <6e04e83a1002010944q7abfabc6h892ce4cbb1bddcbf@mail.gmail.com> <973B1F15-E822-491E-89BF-F09FC7E67509@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> <6e04e83a1002011109u1cd55c99k8b584648184cdc73@mail.gmail.com> <162E0DB1-EC86-4206-AB36-6FEFA786B24C@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> <6e04e83a1002011402u395f599g74180d28fdbe5707@mail.gmail.com> <939BB577-FDBE-4573-9129-8CA29B0FB493@sackheads.org> <7B06A582-38E3-4387-BA16-932825A4A62B@rfc1035.com> In-Reply-To: <7B06A582-38E3-4387-BA16-932825A4A62B@rfc1035.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: Nicholas Weaver , John Payne , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org From: Nicholas Weaver Subject: Re: [dnsext] draft-vandergaast-edns-client-ip-00.txt Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2010 09:13:10 -0800 To: Jim Reid X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On Feb 2, 2010, at 8:46 AM, Jim Reid wrote: > On 1 Feb 2010, at 22:07, John Payne wrote: >=20 >> Yes, it adds complexity to the recursive nameservers _that want to = send the information_. >>=20 >> Where else is it adding any complexity? >=20 > [1] Stub resolvers that don't want their address info disclosed. Or = those who may want to send that info (how??) but are talking to = resolving servers who don't. Or the resolving servers tamper with that = data whenever they query the authoritative server(s). Or choose to = mangle whatever is returned as the optimised response. If the resolver doesn't support it, a) Who cares? b) Just run your own = recursive resolver. If you don't trust the resolver, thinking it may tamper with things, why = are you using it at all? Seriously, if the recursive resolver is in = your threat model, bypass it and generate your own recursive requests: = its not necessary for correct operation of DNS. > [2] Authoritative servers who can't/won't speak this EDNS0 option. The = draft does not specify how they should behave. You can easily do fallbacks for those who don't speak this EDNS0 option: = If you don't get a response on the first query, retry without this = option. If that works, have your next 2-3 queries be both (with and = without). If those two or three also fail, record that authority as not = supporting, and don't use the query in any subsequnet responses Voila, you have fallback: only ever hits a timeout the first time for = authorities which can NOT respond to a request with an unknown EDNS = option, and even for those, its only 1 timeout latency and 2-3 extra = queries from each recursive resolver which bothers with this option. This is why the basic scheme is so beautiful: it does NOT require = changes to anyone who doesn't actually care about this option. This is = the kind of thing EDNS options should be designed for: optional behavior = amongst a subset of the system. > Another Bad Idea in this draft is the concept of not using these = extended queries to root and TLD servers. [Ironically, this is one place = where "optimised" addresses in responses could be useful by directing = resolvers to the nearest server for a referral.] It's not a good idea = IMO to constrain a particular protocol query format to certain parts of = the name space or an arbitrary number of labels in the QNAME. Except that provides the privacy protections that you and S Bortzmeyer = want: limiting disclosure, when possible, to the authority of the site = the user will be contacting. If you ONLY include such queries in the = queries to the final authority, the information leakage really IS = trivial, its so that a host in that particular subnet can contact the = authority's associated site! And for your suggested usage, this isn't necessary, as you refer the = RESOLVER's IP to the most appropriate one, not the client's IP, because = it is the resolver that needs to contact the domain's authority. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Feb 2 09:28:49 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44B953A672E; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 09:28:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AIvQkADQxkwf; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 09:28:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A68C3A69FD; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 09:28:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NcMTZ-000LZS-1g for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 17:23:45 +0000 Received: from [65.99.1.130] (helo=abenaki.wabanaki.net) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NcMTW-000LYr-Al for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 17:23:42 +0000 Received: from limpet.local (cpe-67-241-43-7.twcny.res.rr.com [67.241.43.7]) by abenaki.wabanaki.net (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o12HD5XK080889; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 12:13:05 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from ebw@abenaki.wabanaki.net) Message-ID: <4B685F91.9010203@abenaki.wabanaki.net> Date: Tue, 02 Feb 2010 12:23:29 -0500 From: Eric Brunner-Williams User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10.5; en-US; rv:1.9.1.7) Gecko/20100111 Thunderbird/3.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nicholas Weaver CC: Stephane Bortzmeyer , John Payne , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] Re: I-D ACTION:draft-vandergaast-edns-client-ip-00.txt References: <7c31c8cc1001271556w4918093er6e94e07cb92c4dc4@mail.gmail.com> <74DFF61A-A8BB-4B46-A873-F2407C34C412@sackheads.org> <139D0D6A-5A31-4EE8-88B9-3CACE933187B@icsi.berkeley.edu> <6e04e83a1002010944q7abfabc6h892ce4cbb1bddcbf@mail.gmail.com> <973B1F15-E822-491E-89BF-F09FC7E67509@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> <6e04e83a1002011109u1cd55c99k8b584648184cdc73@mail.gmail.com> <162E0DB1-EC86-4206-AB36-6FEFA786B24C@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> <6e04e83a1002011402u395f599g74180d28fdbe5707@mail.gmail.com> <939BB577-FDBE-4573-9129-8CA29B0FB493@sackheads.org> <20100202162141.GA8636@nic.fr> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On 2/2/10 11:54 AM, Nicholas Weaver wrote: > > On Feb 2, 2010, at 8:21 AM, Stephane Bortzmeyer wrote: > >> On Mon, Feb 01, 2010 at 05:07:11PM -0500, >> John Payne wrote >> a message of 24 lines which said: >> >>> Yes, it adds complexity to the recursive nameservers _that want to send the information_. >>> >>> Where else is it adding any complexity? >> >> In the stub resolvers that _do not want_ to send the information. > > Would the following be acceptable to you? > >> This technique SHOULD only be used by recursive resolvers where the end-host or end-host administrator has explicitly selected this recursive resolver over one automatically selected by the network provider. > > > > That should solve your privacy concerns, because the main usage is for third party resolvers where the user or network administrator has already selected its usage, and the terms of service for these providers invariably allow them to add features like this. > > Because, frankly speaking, you have to trust that the recursive resolver isn't shipping a copy of all your requests to the NSA anyway, so a client-directive is really meaningless for enforcement. > Failing to distinguish between economically irrational actors such as the NSA and their pervasive intercept, and economically rational actors, such as DoubleClick, is not useful. Both are engaged in deterministic, as well as probabalistic profiling, but to radically different ends. I repeat, a data collection policy discovery mechanism is quite different from a "don't collect my data" assertion, which may, or may not, have any semantic meaning. With the former, the duration that data is held, the conditions under which it is provided to third parties, and the data it is correlated with, are all discoverable. With the later these are ... uninteresting I guess. Eric From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Feb 2 10:10:59 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D19CA28C101; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 10:10:59 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.531 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.531 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.068, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BNINsNYB17aB; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 10:10:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7593B3A6803; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 10:10:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NcN8u-0004XH-Vx for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 18:06:28 +0000 Received: from [195.54.233.65] (helo=hutch.rfc1035.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NcN8q-0004Uw-UR for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 18:06:25 +0000 Received: from gromit.rfc1035.com (gromit.rfc1035.com [195.54.233.69]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: jim) by hutch.rfc1035.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 1514A154283B; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 18:06:23 +0000 (GMT) Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Message-Id: From: Jim Reid To: Nicholas Weaver In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v936) Subject: Re: [dnsext] draft-vandergaast-edns-client-ip-00.txt Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2010 18:06:23 +0000 References: <7c31c8cc1001271556w4918093er6e94e07cb92c4dc4@mail.gmail.com> <74DFF61A-A8BB-4B46-A873-F2407C34C412@sackheads.org> <139D0D6A-5A31-4EE8-88B9-3CACE933187B@icsi.berkeley.edu> <6e04e83a1002010944q7abfabc6h892ce4cbb1bddcbf@mail.gmail.com> <973B1F15-E822-491E-89BF-F09FC7E67509@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> <6e04e83a1002011109u1cd55c99k8b584648184cdc73@mail.gmail.com> <162E0DB1-EC86-4206-AB36-6FEFA786B24C@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> <6e04e83a1002011402u395f599g74180d28fdbe5707@mail.gmail.com> <939BB577-FDBE-4573-9129-8CA29B0FB493@sackheads.org> <7B06A582-38E3-4387-BA16-932825A4A62B@rfc1035.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.936) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On 2 Feb 2010, at 17:13, Nicholas Weaver wrote: > You can easily do fallbacks for those who don't speak this EDNS0 > option: If you don't get a response on the first query, retry > without this option. If that works, have your next 2-3 queries be > both (with and without). If those two or three also fail, record > that authority as not supporting, and don't use the query in any > subsequnet responses > > Voila, you have fallback: only ever hits a timeout the first time > for authorities which can NOT respond to a request with an unknown > EDNS option, and even for those, its only 1 timeout latency and 2-3 > extra queries from each recursive resolver which bothers with this > option. > > > This is why the basic scheme is so beautiful: it does NOT require > changes to anyone who doesn't actually care about this option. This > is the kind of thing EDNS options should be designed for: optional > behavior amongst a subset of the system. So, your idea of optional behaviour in some circumstances is to increase DNS latency and generate extra queries. I see... From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Feb 2 10:31:26 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A58BF3A6B2C; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 10:31:26 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 63Q3Zri9ev+G; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 10:31:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C312D3A697F; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 10:31:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NcNSH-0008Fm-44 for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 18:26:29 +0000 Received: from [131.111.8.135] (helo=ppsw-5.csi.cam.ac.uk) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NcNSE-0008FB-IZ for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 18:26:26 +0000 X-Cam-AntiVirus: no malware found X-Cam-SpamDetails: not scanned X-Cam-ScannerInfo: http://www.cam.ac.uk/cs/email/scanner/ Received: from hermes-2.csi.cam.ac.uk ([131.111.8.54]:52907) by ppsw-5.csi.cam.ac.uk (smtp.hermes.cam.ac.uk [131.111.8.155]:25) with esmtpa (EXTERNAL:fanf2) id 1NcNSC-0005PX-IA (Exim 4.70) (return-path ); Tue, 02 Feb 2010 18:26:24 +0000 Received: from fanf2 (helo=localhost) by hermes-2.csi.cam.ac.uk (hermes.cam.ac.uk) with local-esmtp id 1NcNSC-0004ux-Jt (Exim 4.67) (return-path ); Tue, 02 Feb 2010 18:26:24 +0000 Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2010 18:26:24 +0000 From: Tony Finch X-X-Sender: fanf2@hermes-2.csi.cam.ac.uk To: Jim Reid cc: Nicholas Weaver , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] draft-vandergaast-edns-client-ip-00.txt In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <7c31c8cc1001271556w4918093er6e94e07cb92c4dc4@mail.gmail.com> <74DFF61A-A8BB-4B46-A873-F2407C34C412@sackheads.org> <139D0D6A-5A31-4EE8-88B9-3CACE933187B@icsi.berkeley.edu> <6e04e83a1002010944q7abfabc6h892ce4cbb1bddcbf@mail.gmail.com> <973B1F15-E822-491E-89BF-F09FC7E67509@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> <6e04e83a1002011109u1cd55c99k8b584648184cdc73@mail.gmail.com> <162E0DB1-EC86-4206-AB36-6FEFA786B24C@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> <6e04e83a1002011402u395f599g74180d28fdbe5707@mail.gmail.com> <939BB577-FDBE-4573-9129-8CA29B0FB493@sackheads.org> <7B06A582-38E3-4387-BA16-932825A4A62B@rfc1035.com> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (LSU 1167 2008-08-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On Tue, 2 Feb 2010, Jim Reid wrote: > > So, your idea of optional behaviour in some circumstances is to increase > DNS latency and generate extra queries. I see... Isn't that just how EDNS0 is specified to work? Tony. -- f.anthony.n.finch http://dotat.at/ GERMAN BIGHT HUMBER: SOUTHWEST 5 TO 7. MODERATE OR ROUGH. SQUALLY SHOWERS. MODERATE OR GOOD. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Feb 2 10:31:27 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 262883A697F; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 10:31:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.427 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.427 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.550, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ff2wgLub5ngT; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 10:31:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63A733A6952; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 10:31:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NcNV9-0008lL-2c for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 18:29:27 +0000 Received: from [216.239.44.51] (helo=smtp-out.google.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NcNV6-0008kb-AN for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 18:29:25 +0000 Received: from spaceape10.eur.corp.google.com (spaceape10.eur.corp.google.com [172.28.16.144]) by smtp-out.google.com with ESMTP id o12ITM59015609 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 10:29:22 -0800 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=beta; t=1265135363; bh=fWs/vxF08c3mpqM3M83XdrC4OT4=; h=MIME-Version:In-Reply-To:References:Date:Message-ID:Subject:From: To:Cc:Content-Type; b=pmMja7RvBpk2FBvdZzDk3Q2OoaoAorNrMrrTzDh1jZOZ2VCweagNhmybGvmtmGcGm RVJ+DWGZZx/caasZhCUCA== DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=beta; d=google.com; c=nofws; q=dns; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to: cc:content-type:x-system-of-record; b=KT5NRr3pwRMAdxQFJ6lcuhS5n9r9D0sSTPsjxh9JK9FwubhnklzHbyVzVTNPEX0uc JX6nDkdOCIa3j1fPg8BOw== Received: from bwz19 (bwz19.prod.google.com [10.188.26.19]) by spaceape10.eur.corp.google.com with ESMTP id o12IT3bk011648 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 10:29:21 -0800 Received: by bwz19 with SMTP id 19so253874bwz.8 for ; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 10:29:21 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.204.25.197 with SMTP id a5mr4695389bkc.70.1265135361188; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 10:29:21 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <7c31c8cc1001271556w4918093er6e94e07cb92c4dc4@mail.gmail.com> <6e04e83a1002010944q7abfabc6h892ce4cbb1bddcbf@mail.gmail.com> <973B1F15-E822-491E-89BF-F09FC7E67509@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> <6e04e83a1002011109u1cd55c99k8b584648184cdc73@mail.gmail.com> <162E0DB1-EC86-4206-AB36-6FEFA786B24C@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> <6e04e83a1002011402u395f599g74180d28fdbe5707@mail.gmail.com> <939BB577-FDBE-4573-9129-8CA29B0FB493@sackheads.org> <7B06A582-38E3-4387-BA16-932825A4A62B@rfc1035.com> Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2010 18:29:21 +0000 Message-ID: <7c31c8cc1002021029m74d488ep9c2dc888dd1f93d0@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [dnsext] draft-vandergaast-edns-client-ip-00.txt From: Wilmer van der Gaast To: Jim Reid Cc: Nicholas Weaver , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-System-Of-Record: true Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On 2 February 2010 18:06, Jim Reid wrote: > > So, your idea of optional behaviour in some circumstances is to increase DNS > latency and generate extra queries. I see... > Are you trying to say that EDNS0 options should only ever be used for extensions designed to slow things down? Sadly the EDNS0 spec doesn't really describe what an implementation should do if it sees an unsupported option. So far most of them seem to just ignore data they don't understand, which is the sanest thing to do IMHO. A few are different and return something like FORMERR or just drop the packet altogether. I've dealt with firewalls that drop any DNS packet with EDNS0 information, getting BIND to work well on such a network was pretty hard since BIND couldn't be told to disable EDNS0 globally. If we want to block DNS extensions because of existing broken implementations, what's the point of developing anything new at all? Wilmer. -- Wilmer van der Gaast, Dublin Traffic SRE. Google Ireland. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Feb 2 10:32:38 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D5B73A67AB; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 10:32:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.578 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.578 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.021, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xt7tF7doFPyX; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 10:32:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C46D3A65A6; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 10:32:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NcNTg-0008VD-Uq for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 18:27:56 +0000 Received: from [192.150.186.11] (helo=fruitcake.ICSI.Berkeley.EDU) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NcNTe-0008Ux-Tj for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 18:27:55 +0000 Received: from [IPv6:::1] (jack.ICSI.Berkeley.EDU [192.150.186.73]) by fruitcake.ICSI.Berkeley.EDU (8.12.11.20060614/8.12.11) with ESMTP id o12IRs0s002790; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 10:27:54 -0800 (PST) References: <7c31c8cc1001271556w4918093er6e94e07cb92c4dc4@mail.gmail.com> <74DFF61A-A8BB-4B46-A873-F2407C34C412@sackheads.org> <139D0D6A-5A31-4EE8-88B9-3CACE933187B@icsi.berkeley.edu> <6e04e83a1002010944q7abfabc6h892ce4cbb1bddcbf@mail.gmail.com> <973B1F15-E822-491E-89BF-F09FC7E67509@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> <6e04e83a1002011109u1cd55c99k8b584648184cdc73@mail.gmail.com> <162E0DB1-EC86-4206-AB36-6FEFA786B24C@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> <6e04e83a1002011402u395f599g74180d28fdbe5707@mail.gmail.com> <939BB577-FDBE-4573-9129-8CA29B0FB493@sackheads.org> <7B06A582-38E3-4387-BA16-932825A4A62B@rfc1035.com> In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-Id: <23AAB144-AF85-45C7-A99C-C1E7A5334F9C@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: Nicholas Weaver , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org From: Nicholas Weaver Subject: Re: [dnsext] draft-vandergaast-edns-client-ip-00.txt Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2010 10:27:54 -0800 To: Jim Reid X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On Feb 2, 2010, at 10:06 AM, Jim Reid wrote: > On 2 Feb 2010, at 17:13, Nicholas Weaver wrote: >=20 >> You can easily do fallbacks for those who don't speak this EDNS0 = option: If you don't get a response on the first query, retry without = this option. If that works, have your next 2-3 queries be both (with = and without). If those two or three also fail, record that authority as = not supporting, and don't use the query in any subsequnet responses >>=20 >> Voila, you have fallback: only ever hits a timeout the first time for = authorities which can NOT respond to a request with an unknown EDNS = option, and even for those, its only 1 timeout latency and 2-3 extra = queries from each recursive resolver which bothers with this option. >>=20 >>=20 >> This is why the basic scheme is so beautiful: it does NOT require = changes to anyone who doesn't actually care about this option. This is = the kind of thing EDNS options should be designed for: optional behavior = amongst a subset of the system. >=20 > So, your idea of optional behaviour in some circumstances is to = increase DNS latency and generate extra queries. I see... No. There are 4 cases, all of them harmless, two which add no latency = or additional queries, one which adds one RTT latency on the first = query, and one which adds one timeout of latency on the first query and = 2-3 additional queries. Authority knows what the option is: No added latency, no nothing. Authority doesn't know the option but follows RFC 2671 5.3: The server = replies with NOTIMPL, FORMERR, or SERVFAIL. So setry without and cache = the behavior of the authority. Result? One RTT of added latency on the = first query to the authority to learn the state. No other effect. Authority doesn't know the option and just ignores it in violation of = RFC 2671: No effect. Authority doesn't know the option and does a silent failure in violation = of RFC 2671 (aka, BUGGY!): Retry after timout, so 1 timeout of added = latency on the first query and 2-3 doubled queries subsequently to learn = the state of the authority. This is the whole point of EDNS0 options: there is graceful failure when = the authorities don't understand them, both when they follow the RFC and = even when they don't! =20 Harm to non-compliant authorities is effectively nonexistant: one RTT = latency if you follow RFC 2671 for unknown options, one timeout RTT if = you don't. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Feb 2 10:48:32 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC93F3A697B; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 10:48:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.977 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.977 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8u9JlyIVL-cE; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 10:48:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B3DC3A68A0; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 10:48:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NcNlX-000C5i-RE for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 18:46:23 +0000 Received: from [209.85.216.204] (helo=mail-px0-f204.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NcNlV-000C3n-P7 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 18:46:21 +0000 Received: by pxi42 with SMTP id 42so663693pxi.5 for ; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 10:46:21 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.115.65.40 with SMTP id s40mr4244310wak.96.1265136381178; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 10:46:21 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <23AAB144-AF85-45C7-A99C-C1E7A5334F9C@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> References: <7c31c8cc1001271556w4918093er6e94e07cb92c4dc4@mail.gmail.com> <973B1F15-E822-491E-89BF-F09FC7E67509@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> <6e04e83a1002011109u1cd55c99k8b584648184cdc73@mail.gmail.com> <162E0DB1-EC86-4206-AB36-6FEFA786B24C@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> <6e04e83a1002011402u395f599g74180d28fdbe5707@mail.gmail.com> <939BB577-FDBE-4573-9129-8CA29B0FB493@sackheads.org> <7B06A582-38E3-4387-BA16-932825A4A62B@rfc1035.com> <23AAB144-AF85-45C7-A99C-C1E7A5334F9C@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2010 10:46:21 -0800 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [dnsext] draft-vandergaast-edns-client-ip-00.txt From: Matthew Dempsky To: Nicholas Weaver Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 10:27 AM, Nicholas Weaver wrote: > Authority doesn't know the option but follows RFC 2671 5.3: =A0The server= replies with NOTIMPL, FORMERR, or SERVFAIL. I don't understand RFC 2671 5.3 as requiring a server to reply with one of those codes (otherwise it would have made more sense to specify which one). Instead, I read it as a warning/reminder to the reader that a server might not gracefully handle new extensions, and clients should be prepared to deal with that possibility when making use of them. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Feb 2 10:50:00 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE41B3A697B; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 10:50:00 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.537 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.537 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.062, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SEaxd-vuXBht; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 10:50:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6CA43A68C6; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 10:49:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NcNjl-000BkE-Lm for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 18:44:33 +0000 Received: from [195.54.233.65] (helo=hutch.rfc1035.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NcNjj-000Bjd-7e for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 18:44:31 +0000 Received: from gromit.rfc1035.com (gromit.rfc1035.com [195.54.233.69]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: jim) by hutch.rfc1035.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 5001B154283B; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 18:44:29 +0000 (GMT) Cc: Nicholas Weaver , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Message-Id: <37ECA1B1-F29D-4582-87E0-1D9AE32E0E3C@rfc1035.com> From: Jim Reid To: Wilmer van der Gaast In-Reply-To: <7c31c8cc1002021029m74d488ep9c2dc888dd1f93d0@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v936) Subject: [dnsext] something for RFC2671-bis Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2010 18:44:29 +0000 References: <7c31c8cc1001271556w4918093er6e94e07cb92c4dc4@mail.gmail.com> <6e04e83a1002010944q7abfabc6h892ce4cbb1bddcbf@mail.gmail.com> <973B1F15-E822-491E-89BF-F09FC7E67509@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> <6e04e83a1002011109u1cd55c99k8b584648184cdc73@mail.gmail.com> <162E0DB1-EC86-4206-AB36-6FEFA786B24C@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> <6e04e83a1002011402u395f599g74180d28fdbe5707@mail.gmail.com> <939BB577-FDBE-4573-9129-8CA29B0FB493@sackheads.org> <7B06A582-38E3-4387-BA16-932825A4A62B@rfc1035.com> <7c31c8cc1002021029m74d488ep9c2dc888dd1f93d0@mail.gmail.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.936) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On 2 Feb 2010, at 18:29, Wilmer van der Gaast wrote: > Sadly the EDNS0 spec doesn't really describe what an implementation > should do if it sees an unsupported option. Indeed. Perhaps this can be clarified if 2671bis gets revived. After all there is a difference between "I don't speak EDNS0" and "I don't understand this EDNS option". Until then, it would be prudent for anyone proposing new EDNS options to specify how implementatons that don't support the option should behave. Your mileage may vary. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Feb 2 10:52:15 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A9C53A69C3; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 10:52:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.579 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.579 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.020, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EJUdmbWSMMqK; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 10:52:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B12B3A697B; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 10:52:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NcNp0-000Cin-2D for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 18:49:58 +0000 Received: from [192.150.186.11] (helo=fruitcake.ICSI.Berkeley.EDU) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NcNox-000CiM-O9 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 18:49:55 +0000 Received: from [IPv6:::1] (jack.ICSI.Berkeley.EDU [192.150.186.73]) by fruitcake.ICSI.Berkeley.EDU (8.12.11.20060614/8.12.11) with ESMTP id o12Inq6v005858; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 10:49:52 -0800 (PST) References: <7c31c8cc1001271556w4918093er6e94e07cb92c4dc4@mail.gmail.com> <973B1F15-E822-491E-89BF-F09FC7E67509@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> <6e04e83a1002011109u1cd55c99k8b584648184cdc73@mail.gmail.com> <162E0DB1-EC86-4206-AB36-6FEFA786B24C@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> <6e04e83a1002011402u395f599g74180d28fdbe5707@mail.gmail.com> <939BB577-FDBE-4573-9129-8CA29B0FB493@sackheads.org> <7B06A582-38E3-4387-BA16-932825A4A62B@rfc1035.com> <23AAB144-AF85-45C7-A99C-C1E7A5334F9C@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: Nicholas Weaver , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org From: Nicholas Weaver Subject: Re: [dnsext] draft-vandergaast-edns-client-ip-00.txt Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2010 10:49:52 -0800 To: Matthew Dempsky X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On Feb 2, 2010, at 10:46 AM, Matthew Dempsky wrote: > On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 10:27 AM, Nicholas Weaver > wrote: >> Authority doesn't know the option but follows RFC 2671 5.3: The = server replies with NOTIMPL, FORMERR, or SERVFAIL. >=20 > I don't understand RFC 2671 5.3 as requiring a server to reply with > one of those codes (otherwise it would have made more sense to specify > which one). Instead, I read it as a warning/reminder to the reader > that a server might not gracefully handle new extensions, and clients > should be prepared to deal with that possibility when making use of > them. To me it sounds like it should: 5.3. Responders who do not understand these protocol extensions are expected to send a response with RCODE NOTIMPL, FORMERR, or SERVFAIL. Therefore use of extensions should be "probed" such that a responder who isn't known to support them be allowed a retry with no extensions if it responds with such an RCODE. If a responder's capability level is cached by a requestor, a new probe should be sent periodically to test for changes to responder capability. Protocol extensions would IMO, include an unknown options. But in any case, there are graceful failure mechanisms no matter what = the authority does: ignore it, reply with any sort of failure, or = silently not reply: all can be handled easily. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Feb 2 10:53:16 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51CFC3A69FD; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 10:53:16 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.541 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.541 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.058, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id B0EsuCmvcpau; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 10:53:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8630A3A697B; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 10:53:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NcNqE-000D37-Ay for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 18:51:14 +0000 Received: from [195.54.233.65] (helo=hutch.rfc1035.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NcNqC-000D2W-2j for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 18:51:12 +0000 Received: from gromit.rfc1035.com (gromit.rfc1035.com [195.54.233.69]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: jim) by hutch.rfc1035.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 35455154283B; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 18:51:10 +0000 (GMT) Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Message-Id: From: Jim Reid To: Tony Finch In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v936) Subject: [dnsext] EDNS behaviour and draft-vandergaast-edns-client-ip-00.txt Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2010 18:51:10 +0000 References: <7c31c8cc1001271556w4918093er6e94e07cb92c4dc4@mail.gmail.com> <74DFF61A-A8BB-4B46-A873-F2407C34C412@sackheads.org> <139D0D6A-5A31-4EE8-88B9-3CACE933187B@icsi.berkeley.edu> <6e04e83a1002010944q7abfabc6h892ce4cbb1bddcbf@mail.gmail.com> <973B1F15-E822-491E-89BF-F09FC7E67509@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> <6e04e83a1002011109u1cd55c99k8b584648184cdc73@mail.gmail.com> <162E0DB1-EC86-4206-AB36-6FEFA786B24C@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> <6e04e83a1002011402u395f599g74180d28fdbe5707@mail.gmail.com> <939BB577-FDBE-4573-9129-8CA29B0FB493@sackheads.org> <7B06A582-38E3-4387-BA16-932825A4A62B@rfc1035.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.936) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On 2 Feb 2010, at 18:26, Tony Finch wrote: > On Tue, 2 Feb 2010, Jim Reid wrote: >> >> So, your idea of optional behaviour in some circumstances is to >> increase >> DNS latency and generate extra queries. I see... > > Isn't that just how EDNS0 is specified to work? Yes, but we're not talking about EDNS0 here. We're talking about an EDNS0 option. The behaviour which was suggested could mean resolvers incorrectly deciding a server doesn't speak EDNS0 when in reality it doesn't understand a new EDNS0 option. That would be bad. From dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Tue Feb 2 11:00:13 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD9873A67B4 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 11:00:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -52.683 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-52.683 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=33.030, BAYES_80=2, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HELO_EQ_HU=1.35, HOST_EQ_HU=1.245, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, URI_HEX=0.368, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AlyTrmb9f2wQ for ; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 11:00:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from apn-89-223-152-94.vodafone.hu (apn-89-223-152-94.vodafone.hu [89.223.152.94]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A32A83A67A1 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 11:00:12 -0800 (PST) From: Elena To: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: You're saying that you come to Russia - I've been expecting you like a fool, but you do not come! 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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Feb 2 11:10:01 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81A453A6833; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 11:10:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.506 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.506 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.471, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id W4NNflOivmD6; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 11:10:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6DC93A67B4; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 11:10:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NcO1T-000Fc3-8j for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 19:02:51 +0000 Received: from [216.239.33.17] (helo=smtp-out.google.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NcO1O-000Faq-WE for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 19:02:49 +0000 Received: from kpbe18.cbf.corp.google.com (kpbe18.cbf.corp.google.com [172.25.105.82]) by smtp-out.google.com with ESMTP id o12J2il4029890 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 19:02:44 GMT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=beta; t=1265137365; bh=78JFnHusZRQhyzqfK1GvTX6z40g=; h=MIME-Version:In-Reply-To:References:Date:Message-ID:Subject:From: To:Cc:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=QtPXba1HwkynNaSoO+9IXUBC+MXw3FbTeDgcmFAuegh9mbpqa8bor/PSnhtr/SSea KeTfd61j+NVpKcxOt5yHQ== DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=beta; d=google.com; c=nofws; q=dns; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to: cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:x-system-of-record; b=AWnVJEv2WcP89Ec4Mu/iMvFZ8eXNejsYJVXDAL4hzYGSpZUGxNX3veYgH4bz4n3lk DbeVQP7vhUvgv095Ju2zw== Received: from bwz23 (bwz23.prod.google.com [10.188.26.23]) by kpbe18.cbf.corp.google.com with ESMTP id o12J2gpY013690 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 11:02:43 -0800 Received: by bwz23 with SMTP id 23so368201bwz.1 for ; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 11:02:42 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.204.140.25 with SMTP id g25mr3811828bku.197.1265137362153; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 11:02:42 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <7c31c8cc1001271556w4918093er6e94e07cb92c4dc4@mail.gmail.com> <6e04e83a1002011109u1cd55c99k8b584648184cdc73@mail.gmail.com> <162E0DB1-EC86-4206-AB36-6FEFA786B24C@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> <6e04e83a1002011402u395f599g74180d28fdbe5707@mail.gmail.com> <939BB577-FDBE-4573-9129-8CA29B0FB493@sackheads.org> <7B06A582-38E3-4387-BA16-932825A4A62B@rfc1035.com> <23AAB144-AF85-45C7-A99C-C1E7A5334F9C@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2010 19:02:42 +0000 Message-ID: <7c31c8cc1002021102t66b3100bw8ea4a22638f87df8@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [dnsext] draft-vandergaast-edns-client-ip-00.txt From: Wilmer van der Gaast To: Matthew Dempsky Cc: Nicholas Weaver , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-System-Of-Record: true Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On 2 February 2010 18:46, Matthew Dempsky wrote: > > I don't understand RFC 2671 5.3 as requiring a server to reply with > one of those codes (otherwise it would have made more sense to specify > which one). =A0Instead, I read it as a warning/reminder to the reader > that a server might not gracefully handle new extensions, and clients > should be prepared to deal with that possibility when making use of > them. > +1 Just out of curiosity I did a few test queries to my own server running BIND, to OpenDNS, Google Public DNS, and amazon.com and microsoft.com nameservers. They all ignore the option, except the last: From what I can see this is done by their Netscalers though, not their nameservers. (dig . ns @65.55.37.62 shows a very typical response that I've only seen from Netscalers so far) Wilmer. --=20 Wilmer van der Gaast, Dublin Traffic SRE. Google Ireland. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Feb 2 11:14:44 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01F063A68A0; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 11:14:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.579 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.579 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.020, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RJcu5cArJ25D; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 11:14:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F67F3A68AB; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 11:14:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NcO7c-000GrS-OS for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 19:09:12 +0000 Received: from [192.150.186.11] (helo=fruitcake.ICSI.Berkeley.EDU) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NcO72-000Gma-C3 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 19:08:36 +0000 Received: from [IPv6:::1] (jack.ICSI.Berkeley.EDU [192.150.186.73]) by fruitcake.ICSI.Berkeley.EDU (8.12.11.20060614/8.12.11) with ESMTP id o12J8Vd3008288; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 11:08:32 -0800 (PST) References: <7c31c8cc1001271556w4918093er6e94e07cb92c4dc4@mail.gmail.com> <74DFF61A-A8BB-4B46-A873-F2407C34C412@sackheads.org> <139D0D6A-5A31-4EE8-88B9-3CACE933187B@icsi.berkeley.edu> <6e04e83a1002010944q7abfabc6h892ce4cbb1bddcbf@mail.gmail.com> <973B1F15-E822-491E-89BF-F09FC7E67509@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> <6e04e83a1002011109u1cd55c99k8b584648184cdc73@mail.gmail.com> <162E0DB1-EC86-4206-AB36-6FEFA786B24C@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> <6e04e83a1002011402u395f599g74180d28fdbe5707@mail.gmail.com> <939BB577-FDBE-4573-9129-8CA29B0FB493@sackheads.org> <7B06A582-38E3-4387-BA16-932825A4A62B@rfc1035.com> In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-Id: <6935C144-5E7B-46B7-948B-457107E2F2D5@icsi.berkeley.edu> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: Nicholas Weaver , Tony Finch , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org From: Nicholas Weaver Subject: Re: [dnsext] EDNS behaviour and draft-vandergaast-edns-client-ip-00.txt Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2010 11:08:31 -0800 To: Jim Reid X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On Feb 2, 2010, at 10:51 AM, Jim Reid wrote: > On 2 Feb 2010, at 18:26, Tony Finch wrote: >=20 >> On Tue, 2 Feb 2010, Jim Reid wrote: >>>=20 >>> So, your idea of optional behaviour in some circumstances is to = increase >>> DNS latency and generate extra queries. I see... >>=20 >> Isn't that just how EDNS0 is specified to work? >=20 > Yes, but we're not talking about EDNS0 here. We're talking about an = EDNS0 option. > The behaviour which was suggested could mean resolvers incorrectly = deciding a server doesn't speak EDNS0 when in reality it doesn't = understand a new EDNS0 option. That would be bad. No, because you retry without the EDNS0 OPTION in question. To be honest, there already needs to be layers of fallbacks already, = because you not only have "don't speak EDNS0", but also fragmentation = issues with large responses. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Feb 2 11:25:03 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67C733A687F; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 11:25:03 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GlQzVBBLPorh; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 11:25:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78E283A659B; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 11:25:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NcOKu-000JOp-0f for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 19:22:56 +0000 Received: from [2001:4f8:3:36::28] (helo=white.flame.org) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NcOKr-000JOM-UH for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 19:22:54 +0000 Received: from white.flame.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by white.flame.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6648A17D1D6; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 19:22:53 +0000 (UTC) Received: from bigmac.home.flame.org (unknown [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff9:13:21d:4fff:fe47:6790]) (using SSLv3 with cipher DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by white.flame.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 633C917D1D5; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 19:22:51 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <4B687B8B.6090404@isc.org> Date: Tue, 02 Feb 2010 13:22:51 -0600 From: Michael Graff User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10.6; en-US; rv:1.9.1.7) Gecko/20100111 Thunderbird/3.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jim Reid CC: Wilmer van der Gaast , Nicholas Weaver , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] something for RFC2671-bis References: <7c31c8cc1001271556w4918093er6e94e07cb92c4dc4@mail.gmail.com> <6e04e83a1002010944q7abfabc6h892ce4cbb1bddcbf@mail.gmail.com> <973B1F15-E822-491E-89BF-F09FC7E67509@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> <6e04e83a1002011109u1cd55c99k8b584648184cdc73@mail.gmail.com> <162E0DB1-EC86-4206-AB36-6FEFA786B24C@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> <6e04e83a1002011402u395f599g74180d28fdbe5707@mail.gmail.com> <939BB577-FDBE-4573-9129-8CA29B0FB493@sackheads.org> <7B06A582-38E3-4387-BA16-932825A4A62B@rfc1035.com> <7c31c8cc1002021029m74d488ep9c2dc888dd1f93d0@mail.gmail.com> <37ECA1B1-F29D-4582-87E0-1D9AE32E0E3C@rfc1035.com> In-Reply-To: <37ECA1B1-F29D-4582-87E0-1D9AE32E0E3C@rfc1035.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.0 OpenPGP: id=BE9E0FA6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV using ClamSMTP Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2010-02-02 12:44 PM, Jim Reid wrote: > Indeed. Perhaps this can be clarified if 2671bis gets revived. After all > there is a difference between "I don't speak EDNS0" and "I don't > understand this EDNS option". Until then, it would be prudent for anyone > proposing new EDNS options to specify how implementatons that don't > support the option should behave. Your mileage may vary. I think it's critical for them to discuss what they think will happen to existing clients. At the least, it might detect operational problems before they become widespread deployed problems. - --Michael -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.8 (Darwin) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAktoe4sACgkQ+NNi0s9NRJ0XpwCfV0Cub+HF2FT6cfPzyIsjjXqq KH4AoKlLPMxiPCjbkFADNBMh2SynPFNW =9i7+ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Feb 2 11:25:59 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D8D03A68C3; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 11:25:59 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eWPhW14-n5X4; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 11:25:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0C173A68B9; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 11:25:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NcOJc-000JAf-Qz for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 19:21:36 +0000 Received: from [2001:4f8:3:36::28] (helo=white.flame.org) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NcOJa-000J9Z-0y for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 19:21:34 +0000 Received: from white.flame.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by white.flame.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 839B917D1D6 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 19:21:33 +0000 (UTC) Received: from bigmac.home.flame.org (unknown [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff9:13:21d:4fff:fe47:6790]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by white.flame.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id D9F5617D1D5 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 19:21:32 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <4B687B3C.2080509@isc.org> Date: Tue, 02 Feb 2010 13:21:32 -0600 From: Michael Graff User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10.6; en-US; rv:1.9.1.7) Gecko/20100111 Thunderbird/3.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] draft-vandergaast-edns-client-ip-00.txt References: <7c31c8cc1001271556w4918093er6e94e07cb92c4dc4@mail.gmail.com> <74DFF61A-A8BB-4B46-A873-F2407C34C412@sackheads.org> <139D0D6A-5A31-4EE8-88B9-3CACE933187B@icsi.berkeley.edu> <6e04e83a1002010944q7abfabc6h892ce4cbb1bddcbf@mail.gmail.com> <973B1F15-E822-491E-89BF-F09FC7E67509@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> <6e04e83a1002011109u1cd55c99k8b584648184cdc73@mail.gmail.com> <162E0DB1-EC86-4206-AB36-6FEFA786B24C@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> <6e04e83a1002011402u395f599g74180d28fdbe5707@mail.gmail.com> <939BB577-FDBE-4573-9129-8CA29B0FB493@sackheads.org> <7B06A582-38E3-4387-BA16-932825A4A62B@rfc1035.com> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 1.0 OpenPGP: id=BE9E0FA6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV using ClamSMTP Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2010-02-02 12:26 PM, Tony Finch wrote: > On Tue, 2 Feb 2010, Jim Reid wrote: >> >> So, your idea of optional behaviour in some circumstances is to increase >> DNS latency and generate extra queries. I see... > > Isn't that just how EDNS0 is specified to work? If a server doesn't understand an EDNS0 option (or EDNS0 at all) it should just ignore it. Basically. My big concern here is not what everyone seems to be discussing, but caching. Since the response coming back now has a network range the answer is good for, this more or less adds another dimension to the cache. You may now have many answers for the same data. Do you have to run DNSSEC validation on each of these answer ranges specially? The signatures have to match up with the records, after all. How exactly will this work with forwarders? Most people think of forwarders as a large shared external cache. If the forwarder supports this option will it place the address of the resolver in the option? If so, that's not the client's address, but a middle-man. This configuration is quite popular. - --Michael -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.8 (Darwin) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAktoezsACgkQ+NNi0s9NRJ1TxACeOxAO6EpdFBzzHUL3kGyo3gMP ocQAoLNCV71KEKlEQdjXkFLQRQzJxu0n =Kn1+ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Feb 2 11:29:04 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BB5A3A68C3; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 11:29:04 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2GJG4zDvJlYW; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 11:29:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A8983A68B9; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 11:29:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NcONI-000JrE-TB for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 19:25:24 +0000 Received: from [2001:4f8:3:36::28] (helo=white.flame.org) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NcONG-000JqG-JB for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 19:25:22 +0000 Received: from white.flame.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by white.flame.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 082C117D1A4; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 19:25:22 +0000 (UTC) Received: from bigmac.home.flame.org (unknown [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff9:13:21d:4fff:fe47:6790]) (using SSLv3 with cipher DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by white.flame.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C0A0C17D192; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 19:25:20 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <4B687C20.1040305@isc.org> Date: Tue, 02 Feb 2010 13:25:20 -0600 From: Michael Graff User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10.6; en-US; rv:1.9.1.7) Gecko/20100111 Thunderbird/3.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nicholas Weaver CC: Matthew Dempsky , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] draft-vandergaast-edns-client-ip-00.txt References: <7c31c8cc1001271556w4918093er6e94e07cb92c4dc4@mail.gmail.com> <973B1F15-E822-491E-89BF-F09FC7E67509@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> <6e04e83a1002011109u1cd55c99k8b584648184cdc73@mail.gmail.com> <162E0DB1-EC86-4206-AB36-6FEFA786B24C@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> <6e04e83a1002011402u395f599g74180d28fdbe5707@mail.gmail.com> <939BB577-FDBE-4573-9129-8CA29B0FB493@sackheads.org> <7B06A582-38E3-4387-BA16-932825A4A62B@rfc1035.com> <23AAB144-AF85-45C7-A99C-C1E7A5334F9C@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 1.0 OpenPGP: id=BE9E0FA6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV using ClamSMTP Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2010-02-02 12:49 PM, Nicholas Weaver wrote: > To me it sounds like it should: > > 5.3. Responders who do not understand these protocol extensions are > expected to send a response with RCODE NOTIMPL, FORMERR, or > SERVFAIL. Therefore use of extensions should be "probed" such that > a responder who isn't known to support them be allowed a retry with > no extensions if it responds with such an RCODE. If a responder's > capability level is cached by a requestor, a new probe should be > sent periodically to test for changes to responder capability. "These extensions" means "ENDS0 data type" really. It is badly worded, and I will ensure it is corrected in the update I'm (still) working on. This is a lot like DHCP options, really. The client can request option 55, but there is no reason the server must understand that, or reply with option 55 configuration. The client has to be able to adapt here. - --Michael -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.8 (Darwin) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAktofB8ACgkQ+NNi0s9NRJ0fyQCfXT9tqdjUgECIg67VxuSPSzJ6 e18An3ELLEVEPtk2q7ux/yZlAAgWUKja =Ksoz -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Feb 2 11:46:19 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D126C3A693A; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 11:46:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.977 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.977 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id G8Vr+AXgZzZa; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 11:46:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 224193A6810; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 11:46:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NcOff-000N9j-BV for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 19:44:23 +0000 Received: from [209.85.222.189] (helo=mail-pz0-f189.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NcOfc-000N7V-Us for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 19:44:20 +0000 Received: by pzk27 with SMTP id 27so434760pzk.33 for ; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 11:44:20 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.114.105.15 with SMTP id d15mr4326693wac.18.1265139860512; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 11:44:20 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <4B687B3C.2080509@isc.org> References: <7c31c8cc1001271556w4918093er6e94e07cb92c4dc4@mail.gmail.com> <6e04e83a1002011109u1cd55c99k8b584648184cdc73@mail.gmail.com> <162E0DB1-EC86-4206-AB36-6FEFA786B24C@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> <6e04e83a1002011402u395f599g74180d28fdbe5707@mail.gmail.com> <939BB577-FDBE-4573-9129-8CA29B0FB493@sackheads.org> <7B06A582-38E3-4387-BA16-932825A4A62B@rfc1035.com> <4B687B3C.2080509@isc.org> Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2010 11:44:20 -0800 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [dnsext] draft-vandergaast-edns-client-ip-00.txt From: Matthew Dempsky To: Michael Graff Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 11:21 AM, Michael Graff wrote: > Since the response coming back now has a network range the answer is > good for, this more or less adds another dimension to the cache. Caches already have to deal with a potentially unbounded set of data. Adding another dimension to this doesn't really change the fundamental problem. Resolvers have the option to control when the flag is used or not. E.g., if the cache is experiencing high levels of churn, they can just turn it off and fallback to current behavior. They can only turn it on for interesting domains that are likely to benefit from it. I see whether or not to use the option as an administrative choice. >=A0You > may now have many answers for the same data. =A0Do you have to run DNSSEC > validation on each of these answer ranges specially? =A0The signatures > have to match up with the records, after all. Of course you'd have to. But as an optimization, you can check if you already have the same record set + DNSSEC signatures cached for a different CIDR block, and then short circuit re-evaluation. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Feb 2 11:46:48 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0431C3A6810; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 11:46:48 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7oZkqgGxkQAI; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 11:46:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08BA63A672F; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 11:46:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NcOd1-000MiD-EJ for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 19:41:39 +0000 Received: from [209.85.218.227] (helo=mail-bw0-f227.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NcOcz-000Mhn-4q for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 19:41:37 +0000 Received: by bwz27 with SMTP id 27so463294bwz.39 for ; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 11:41:35 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:date:message-id:subject :from:to:content-type; bh=/c1GMJpwAsJbWGFHaE0s1vu6ziGce2N64dRTKpwGo5Y=; b=Yn6rEVvYRg8HeXG2S7eVGjVcIxyPM5Sa53XTCOnzCMdX2z/o3VTuAkyegneDALO8ab wZT0Cc8g3uFhAlZlKUoKfx/9RWa52iec9DTW3ds6yzQUYkD4mI2bsir0XsdE4pw+4dzy elr00x16/zq4p/5uElzz4qTcWu/ME+dnhFxgs= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; b=ci1xYm8K3pUQyPD2EuixEXK6GOT4Hlq4VevtrPIfDoQVw9amelmvwLnr2JpZbpy6iH KWEkyrTTVvSOTMgklmrH4wWgJcW/CgMU0PqJVPwShmGoElbkHrXJ3UY5RSLcLaMTf7HY n1dAoFKjPiDSJAB9QdkAurCvfY9NKPAzPHces= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.204.10.146 with SMTP id p18mr728223bkp.94.1265139695758; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 11:41:35 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2010 15:41:35 -0400 Message-ID: <3e1abd2c1002021141y673c0357r6ceea130143f988b@mail.gmail.com> Subject: [dnsext] Incoherency and draft-vandergaast-edns-client-ip-00.txt From: Brian Dickson To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=00032555937a283439047ea34a62 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: --00032555937a283439047ea34a62 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Let's presume the idea here is to genuinely make a scalable, interoperable framework for incoherent queries, with the intent of supporting "special needs" (e.g. CDN networks and their resolvers). Clearly, an operator of such an infrastructure could do what they like in a closed (undocumented or at least non-standardized) fashion. However, the idea of standardizing this has several benefits - multiple implementations, inter-operator compatibility, overall improvement of utility of the results. As such, here are specific suggestions/ideas: - Support for multiple selection criteria for incoherency (such as Paul suggested - language, lat/long, IP, etc.). Generalize the structure, and break out the specific entries in separate IDs/RFCs. - Support for order-of-operations on the multiple criteria. Closest X that supports Y, may be different from closest Y that supports X. - Specify the behavior of match/no-match on support for specific criteria on an ordered set of criteria - e.g. don't care about language, do support IP, return results that encode and parameterize the component results And most particularly, there are two approaches that should be distinguished between, that have drastically different characteristics in what needs to be stored/accessed, on the recursive resolver. If the incoherence is introduced at some referral level, it looks like this: Root-> (ns) -> TLD -> (ns) -> Incoherent-delegator -> (ns based on edns0 option(s)) -> authority server (with coherent-to-this-server results) This would mean that a relatively small number of nameservers, e.g. operated by specialized service operators, or by TLD operators, or whoever, would need to special incoherence handling. The actual authority data caching would be based on (label,IP). Contrast that with incoherence only at the authority server level itself: Root -> (ns) -> TLD -> (ns) -> authority server (with incoherent-within-this-server results, returned based on query edns0 options). The authority data would have to be cached, and retrieved/returned, based on (label,IP,a_bunch_of_other_parameters). I'd suggest that an open structure, with the intent of handling incoherence in referrals only, would be the preferred way to go. Brian --00032555937a283439047ea34a62 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Let's presume the idea here is to genuinely make a scalable, interopera= ble framework for incoherent queries, with the intent of supporting "s= pecial needs" (e.g. CDN networks and their resolvers).

Clearly,= an operator of such an infrastructure could do what they like in a closed = (undocumented or at least non-standardized) fashion.

However, the idea of standardizing this has several benefits - multiple= implementations, inter-operator compatibility, overall improvement of util= ity of the results.

As such, here are specific suggestions/ideas:
- Support for multiple selection criteria for incoherency (such as Paul= suggested - language, lat/long, IP, etc.). Generalize the structure, and b= reak out the specific entries in separate IDs/RFCs.
- Support for order-= of-operations on the multiple criteria. Closest X that supports Y,=A0 may b= e different from closest Y that supports X.
- Specify the behavior of match/no-match on support for specific criteria o= n an ordered set of criteria - e.g. don't care about language, do suppo= rt IP, return results that encode and parameterize the component results
And most particularly, there are two approaches that should be distingu= ished between, that have drastically different characteristics in what need= s to be stored/accessed, on the recursive resolver.

If the incoheren= ce is introduced at some referral level, it looks like this:

Root-> (ns) -> TLD -> (ns) -> Incoherent-delegator -> (n= s based on edns0 option(s)) -> authority server (with coherent-to-this-s= erver results)

This would mean that a relatively small number of nam= eservers, e.g. operated by specialized service operators, or by TLD operato= rs, or whoever, would need to special incoherence handling.
The actual authority data caching would be based on (label,IP).

Cont= rast that with incoherence only at the authority server level itself:
Root -> (ns) -> TLD -> (ns) -> authority server (with incoher= ent-within-this-server results, returned based on query edns0 options).

The authority data would have to be cached, and retrieved/returned, bas= ed on (label,IP,a_bunch_of_other_parameters).

I'd suggest that a= n open structure, with the intent of handling incoherence in referrals only= , would be the preferred way to go.

Brian


--00032555937a283439047ea34a62-- From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Feb 2 11:59:41 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B99AE3A6B41; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 11:59:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.128 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.128 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.471, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HndYTJcM8yvM; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 11:59:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C5693A6B3F; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 11:59:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NcOq6-000PDR-Bw for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 19:55:10 +0000 Received: from [209.85.223.204] (helo=mail-iw0-f204.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NcOq3-000PCh-RL for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 19:55:07 +0000 Received: by iwn42 with SMTP id 42so547112iwn.9 for ; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 11:55:06 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=ySyC5vscBSFMyu/SddmKlsLFL/l6u4lM8QqvbIUswbU=; b=W83cy8V7rjbZoCqs8GlTrvhjItSWylx4Dzqpvxo8zGPz2nQbgc7yZ0P2TE37oe5E8/ iqMOBYMs5LEt0+DQWnNx3hWN2NFcAW6Z3X4x+DVzk2lvAiWbjNFatlSbaMKOv9OXohh+ ygT7fMGt2zdjrygH7bi8RAHYvREKu9yoMWFvM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=ULElheftIB0qzINbzP7nHmV3iw/kF1tufZC6G8OlqZYSsDuYbpPk5/t4/UMEE8fFiM GXOxu3ji0f9lPkpGeRS/NabLsYjJHtKyXiJ+hBdU+oidcJyMAmI+A4jiU96c8DnX9Exg H+cFi0xciIdNS7VMQ1Ny6rsdpr6ekvF4uMWX0= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.142.56.10 with SMTP id e10mr4236494wfa.309.1265140506310; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 11:55:06 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <7c31c8cc1001271556w4918093er6e94e07cb92c4dc4@mail.gmail.com> <139D0D6A-5A31-4EE8-88B9-3CACE933187B@icsi.berkeley.edu> <6e04e83a1002010944q7abfabc6h892ce4cbb1bddcbf@mail.gmail.com> <973B1F15-E822-491E-89BF-F09FC7E67509@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> <6e04e83a1002011109u1cd55c99k8b584648184cdc73@mail.gmail.com> <162E0DB1-EC86-4206-AB36-6FEFA786B24C@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> <6e04e83a1002011402u395f599g74180d28fdbe5707@mail.gmail.com> <6e04e83a1002011640t1b637e30gd7d0150eeb0fae8d@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2010 11:55:06 -0800 Message-ID: <6e04e83a1002021155kcb908b1v71d362e03e7c4002@mail.gmail.com> Subject: [dnsext] Re: Privacy vs EDNS Client IP... From: Ted Hardie To: Nicholas Weaver Cc: John Payne , Roy Arends , Wilmer van der Gaast , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: Comments in-line. On Mon, Feb 1, 2010 at 6:51 PM, Nicholas Weaver wrote: > > On Feb 1, 2010, at 4:40 PM, Ted Hardie wrote: >>> You could consider an automatic opt-in from all clients using third par= ty DNS servers, since they opted in to THAT in the first place. >>> >> >> Except that it wasn't in place when they configured them. =A0So that's a >> post-facto >> opt-in, which doesn't seem much like an opt-in at all. > > Have you read a terms of service that hasn't said "we can do whatever we = want whenever we want in the future?" > > You use a third party DNS service, you've already agreed to things like > >> New Features. >> >> OpenDNS may, in the future, offer new services and/or features through t= he Service (including, the release of new tools and resources). Such new fe= atures and/or services shall be subject to these Terms of Use. Your continu= ed use of the Service after the introduction of new features and/or service= s constitutes your acceptance of the Terms of Use. > Again, I think you're conflating the terms of service for a particular actor with the protocol semantics here. You may be right that some 3rd party agreements allow one of the parties to set the ravish-me bit, but that doesn't make it okay to assume that all DNS users have agreed to the disclosure of this data. This wasn't possible before and they have not opted-in. You and I may disagree about whether or not they should, but let's at least be cleared that they have not. Separately, I agree with Stephane's comments on the method for opting out in the draft requiring work and having potential deployment difficulties. > >>> But if you want to require manual opt-in, you're saying "Kill this prop= osal" just in kinder language. >>> >> >> Notice that I'm not saying "Don't work on this problem", though. >> If the client included a bit that said "feel free to pass my details on" >> (what GEOPRIV used to call "setting the ravish-me bit") then I >> would have no privacy concern. > > IF the client has to notify that its OK, you are saying kill the proposal= . > As I was trying to say in a previous message, there may be ways to get sufficient data from authorities to interested recursive resolver without there being any privacy-related disclosure. I don't know yet how practical they are, b= ut the problem statement: "Authoritative servers wish to provide localized results based on network proximity. What is the best way for interested recursive resolvers and authoritative servers to manage information about these mappings?" does not automatically imply this solution nor any solution that requires divulging which client subnets originated specific queries. > Then the enterprise is being stupid unless all traffic funnels through th= e same gateway: Not only is it hurting CDN performance, but it is hurting A= LL performance, for no real benefit. Agreed, and that's why I said fixing it by encouraging redeployment rather than localization was the appropriate remedy here. > >> No. =A0If a recursive resolver turns this on globally, it will offer the= option to >> every authoritative server (see section 4.1 of the draft) and it will pa= ss >> the FAMILY and ADDRESS fields. =A0That information will get passed to >> every authoritative server, whether that server is localizing or not. = =A0That's >> the wasted bits/data leakage issue I mentioned. > > But what I am saying is that for 1st party resolvers, BECAUSE the CDN tri= cks work already, this information is already effectively available for all= authorities, this would just give comparable information for the OpenDNS u= sers rather than the Comcast users, or Napanet users, or corporate customer= s, or.... > We seem to be talking at cross purposes here. Let me try again. This prop= osal would have the option be present whenever a recursive resolver talks to an authoritative server if it is globally set. That means that this information passes to every authoritative server, whether the authoritative server is localizing information or not. That means the universe of leaked data is not "Users of 3rd party = DNS requesting info about localized servers" but potentially "users of 3rd par= ty DNS requesting info from anyone". We don't disagree about whether someone running their own recursive resolver or using a local one is already disclo= sing (at least I don't think we do). If this is not set globally, then the recursive resolver has to maintain a table or set of rules that notes when it should be sent and when it should not. I'm= not sure how it gets knowledge of which services are localized, so it is my expectation that anyone who turned it on would leave it on for all queries to authorita= tive servers. I could be wrong, of course, and some other pattern might easily emerge. > If this information leakage wasn't already there for the 1st party resolv= ers, the CDN tricks would never have been developed. =A0This formalizes the= information leakage for 3rd party resolvers. > And puts the onus on clients to opt-out of disclosure without knowing wheth= er or not that disclosure is going on upstream of them. > >>> c: =A0Where they don't route the DNS requests through the proxy >>> >> >> Not all proxy deployments permit the DNS request to be routed through >> the proxy. > > SOCKS does, IIRC, its part of the protocol. =A0That firefox doesn't actua= lly do this by default is IMO, a firefox bug. > SOCKS 4 did not; SOCKS 5 added support for it, but in many installations it requires explicitly directing the DNS traffic through the tunnel. SOCKS can leak DNS in cases where the tunnel is set up per application and DNS/UD= P is not explicitly redirected. Some other forms of proxy don't handle UDP at a= ll. >> >>> d: =A0Somehow care about privacy despite using a 3rd party DNS service = which they explicitly opted-into using in the first place! >>> >>> We can tell A and B, we can't tell C, or D >>> >>> For B: Use a proxy that is in their web browser setting (rather than fo= rced by the network) + use OpenDNS: .77%. =A0Yes, shockingly high, but Open= DNS really is overrepresented in our dataset. >>> >>> A will take a fair bit more work to answer, I need to start thinking on= this. >>> >> >> You still seem to be missing the mobile IP case, where there is a long-l= ived >> tunnel to a home network but a portion of the traffic is originated from= a local >> IP. > > Route your DNS through the same portal as your tunnel: > > If you're tunneling your web traffic, tunnel the associated DNS. =A0Puts = them on the same privacy footing. > > If you aren't tunneling your web traffic, why in god's name are you tunne= ling your DNS? > Think of it in VPN terms for a moment. The VPN set-up directs certain IP subnets through the tunnel interface, which can have effects from pointi= ng default through the tunnel to setting up a small number of networks which are routed through the tunnel but leaving all others to be routed outside t= he tunnel. The resources available through the tunnel can include local file servers, smtp servers, and other services which are not availabl= e from outside because of firewall restrictions. The client needs to pass at least the DNS traffic related to those services through the tunnel because of split DNS. It is easier to pass *all* DNS through that tunnel if the set of reso= urces the client is interested is {globally available services, private services available through the tunnel}. When it includes {globally available services, private services available through the tunnel, and private services available locally but no= t globally} I have to actually associate which domains are served where, and the default can go either to local or tunnel, depending on configuratio= n. Things in MIP-land are a little more complicated yet (service selection opt= ions and so on), but this gives you an idea of why the DNS might exit someplace other than the traffic in the presence of a tunnel. > > > And the problem is, ANY "network mapping of requestor" will probably viol= ate your privacy scruples: No, I'm fine with any mapping that the requester agrees to (a non-starter i= n your option) *or* that is actually a network mapping that doesn't disclose which IP address or subnet generated the request for the mapping. I could achieve that steganographically by putting the "real" request in a flood of requests related to other subnets, but that would be a colossal waste of resources. > > The only OTHER option would be to have the authority's response contain n= etmask rules and force the CDN processing onto the recursive resolver, whic= h would be a huge shift in burden. > Is the real problem here a shift in burden of, presumably, processing power (since the network traffic might actually be less) or of CDN secret sauce? Because if a zone transfer-like mechanism of mapping info can accomplish this there is zero privacy implication to my mind, and I would be intereste= d to see which of the recursive server operators would say yes to using it. > > >> Someone once called =A0protocol development as an exercise at deciding w= hose >> ox gets gored. =A0Goring the privacy of someone who doesn't get to be a = party to >> the protocol exchange in which the data is distributed doesn't strike me= as a >> good idea. =A0Since you've already called me delusional on this point, I= doubt >> my own ideas convince you. =A0But I point you to the work of GEOPRIV as = an >> existence proof that the IETF as a whole at least once cared about a sim= ilar >> issue (and given the services which correlate IP to location, one which = is >> a lot closer than the proposal on the table admits). > > You are trying to "protect" the privacy of those who have explicitly and = willingly given it up already to a major third party. =A0They have already = been a party to willingly giving up their privacy, so if you are going to g= ore anyone, it should be them. > > We disagree on this point. > > And if you are really concerned about privacy, I'd look at web analytics,= that is far far FAR FAR more evil in spraying information around and there= IS no opt-out other than technical countermeasures! =A0You are worried abo= ut a paper cut (subnet of requester in a DNS message using third party DNS = infrastructures) when there is arterial bleeding going on. > And this is unrelated to the work going on here. > > regards, Ted Hardie From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Feb 2 12:01:53 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7BA1828C0D7; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 12:01:53 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nETa5H4boQiY; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 12:01:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C79F28B23E; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 12:01:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NcOsv-000PsW-5t for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 19:58:05 +0000 Received: from [2001:4f8:3:36::28] (helo=white.flame.org) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NcOss-000Ps0-UY for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 19:58:02 +0000 Received: from white.flame.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by white.flame.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7401617D1DF; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 19:58:02 +0000 (UTC) Received: from bigmac.home.flame.org (unknown [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff9:13:21d:4fff:fe47:6790]) (using SSLv3 with cipher DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by white.flame.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 904C617D1DB; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 19:58:01 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <4B6883C8.8020702@isc.org> Date: Tue, 02 Feb 2010 13:58:00 -0600 From: Michael Graff User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10.6; en-US; rv:1.9.1.7) Gecko/20100111 Thunderbird/3.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Matthew Dempsky CC: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] draft-vandergaast-edns-client-ip-00.txt References: <7c31c8cc1001271556w4918093er6e94e07cb92c4dc4@mail.gmail.com> <6e04e83a1002011109u1cd55c99k8b584648184cdc73@mail.gmail.com> <162E0DB1-EC86-4206-AB36-6FEFA786B24C@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> <6e04e83a1002011402u395f599g74180d28fdbe5707@mail.gmail.com> <939BB577-FDBE-4573-9129-8CA29B0FB493@sackheads.org> <7B06A582-38E3-4387-BA16-932825A4A62B@rfc1035.com> <4B687B3C.2080509@isc.org> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 1.0 OpenPGP: id=BE9E0FA6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV using ClamSMTP Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2010-02-02 1:44 PM, Matthew Dempsky wrote: > Caches already have to deal with a potentially unbounded set of data. > Adding another dimension to this doesn't really change the fundamental > problem. I think it quite easily could change it. The amount of data a cache must maintain is not my issue really, although it is a concern. If you query for an MX host, and you get an answer that is valid for a given address range, will the address records for that MX target also need to be checked for that range? What if it's not in it? What about targets of CNAMEs? I know caches deal with this type of thing all the time, but it gets really messy when you do range-checking for the target of the name and then need to do additional section processing in order to really answer the query. Previously, it was "do I have this additional data?" but now it's "Do I have this additional data, and does it also fit within the netmask of the actual query? Perhaps it's just the same thing with the same filters applied. - --Michael -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.8 (Darwin) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAktog8gACgkQ+NNi0s9NRJ1URwCdFpk0DNAgoWPgtabL2IOZs62a x0EAn252IXgEPmh3OrLZezGorK5hj1xY =p2wz -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From maniacal@mandw.com Tue Feb 2 12:30:11 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9F5628C122; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 12:30:11 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -26.825 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-26.825 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_FAKE_RCVD_LINE_B=5.777, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, HELO_EQ_DSL=1.129, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_NJABL_PROXY=1.643, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TcrkV+WUR2+i; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 12:30:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from c203161.adsl.hansenet.de (c203161.adsl.hansenet.de [213.39.203.161]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E27A28C10D; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 12:30:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from 213.39.203.161 by rescue.mx.dnspark.net; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 21:30:51 +0100 Message-ID: <000d01caa446$9c596250$6400a8c0@maniacal> From: dnsext-archive@ietf.org To: Subject: 11 new ladies profiles (dating) Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2010 21:30:51 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0007_01CAA446.9C596250" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE 6.00.2800.1158 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01CAA446.9C596250 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I sexual Russian blonde, want to see, come closer. 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------=_NextPart_000_0007_01CAA446.9C596250-- From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Feb 2 12:52:31 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3FE0C3A6B6C; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 12:52:31 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.28 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.28 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.281, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_33=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OaI5twjfkLsP; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 12:52:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B00AF3A6A4E; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 12:52:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NcPcp-0008PU-QY for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 20:45:31 +0000 Received: from [192.150.186.11] (helo=fruitcake.ICSI.Berkeley.EDU) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NcPcm-0008P0-QB for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 20:45:29 +0000 Received: from [IPv6:::1] (jack.ICSI.Berkeley.EDU [192.150.186.73]) by fruitcake.ICSI.Berkeley.EDU (8.12.11.20060614/8.12.11) with ESMTP id o12KjKQF021832; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 12:45:20 -0800 (PST) References: <7c31c8cc1001271556w4918093er6e94e07cb92c4dc4@mail.gmail.com> <139D0D6A-5A31-4EE8-88B9-3CACE933187B@icsi.berkeley.edu> <6e04e83a1002010944q7abfabc6h892ce4cbb1bddcbf@mail.gmail.com> <973B1F15-E822-491E-89BF-F09FC7E67509@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> <6e04e83a1002011109u1cd55c99k8b584648184cdc73@mail.gmail.com> <162E0DB1-EC86-4206-AB36-6FEFA786B24C@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> <6e04e83a1002011402u395f599g74180d28fdbe5707@mail.gmail.com> <6e04e83a1002011640t1b637e30gd7d0150eeb0fae8d@mail.gmail.com> <6e04e83a1002021155kcb908b1v71d362e03e7c4002@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <6e04e83a1002021155kcb908b1v71d362e03e7c4002@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: Nicholas Weaver , John Payne , Roy Arends , Wilmer van der Gaast , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org From: Nicholas Weaver Subject: [dnsext] Re: Privacy vs EDNS Client IP... Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2010 12:45:20 -0800 To: Ted Hardie X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On Feb 2, 2010, at 11:55 AM, Ted Hardie wrote: > Again, I think you're conflating the terms of service for a particular > actor with the protocol semantics here. You may be right that some > 3rd party agreements allow one of the parties to set the ravish-me = bit, > but that doesn't make it okay to assume that all DNS users have agreed > to the disclosure of this data. This wasn't possible before and they > have not opted-in. You and I may disagree about whether or not they > should, but let's at least be cleared that they have not. >=20 > Separately, I agree with Stephane's comments on the method for opting = out > in the draft requiring work and having potential deployment = difficulties. No, I am saying that the cases where this would be used, the users have = already opted-in to the usage of a system like this, and extensions like = this are already covered in the terms of service. Do you NOT consider explicit selection of a third-party resolver a = significant opt-in action? Should DNS be the only real protocol with an opt-in privacy ability? = HTTP sure doesn't.... > "Authoritative servers wish to provide localized results based on = network > proximity. What is the best way for interested recursive resolvers = and > authoritative servers to manage information about these mappings?" >=20 > does not automatically imply this solution nor any solution that = requires > divulging which client subnets originated specific queries. Actually, it does, here's why: Network proximity, with any decent quality, be it AS number, hash of AS = number, subnet mask, truncated AS path, magic-pixie-number, etc, will = leak similar amounts of information. It has to, because it always has = to say "the user is in this part of the network space", its just a = matter of how to say it and with what precision: be it subnet, most = specific AS number, or pixie-dust: they all say "where you are". =20 And, like GeoIP, or Wifi Mac address -> location, or whatever, there = will be databases made to unify them all, so we might as well call them = roughly equivalent to start with and save us the headache of every = alternate form getting the same objections from different people. Hashing type tricks don't help either, because the search space is way = too small. With a network describable by 10K-100K+ points of locality, = there simply isn't enough search space to make hashing tricks work. QED: Network proximity is privacy sensitive by your definition, in any = form, because they are all roughly equivalent with the only difference = being degrees of precision. =20 IP subnet just happens to be a very convenient one, because the CDNs are = already optimized around that as the metric. But most specific AS or = AS-path fragment would be effectively equivalent in information leakage. > We seem to be talking at cross purposes here. Let me try again. This = proposal > would have the option be present whenever a recursive resolver talks = to an > authoritative server if it is globally set. That means that this > information passes > to every authoritative server, whether the authoritative server is > localizing information > or not. That means the universe of leaked data is not "Users of 3rd = party DNS > requesting info about localized servers" but potentially "users of = 3rd party > DNS requesting info from anyone". We don't disagree about whether = someone > running their own recursive resolver or using a local one is already = disclosing > (at least I don't think we do). >=20 > If this is not set globally, then the recursive resolver has to > maintain a table or > set of rules that notes when it should be sent and when it should not. = I'm not > sure how it gets knowledge of which services are localized, so it is > my expectation > that anyone who turned it on would leave it on for all queries to = authoritative > servers. I could be wrong, of course, and some other pattern might = easily > emerge. And you seem to be missing my point: For users of 1st party resolvers, = this information or something semantically equivalent is already being = leaked to ALL authorities. =20 Just because only a few authorities are USING CDN-like tricks doesn't = mean that all authorities aren't already receiving the same network = locality information, they just are not bothering to infer anything = about it.=20 >=20 > SOCKS 4 did not; SOCKS 5 added support for it, but in many = installations > it requires explicitly directing the DNS traffic through the tunnel. = SOCKS > can leak DNS in cases where the tunnel is set up per application and = DNS/UDP is > not explicitly redirected. Some other forms of proxy don't handle UDP = at all. That does not mean we should work around bugs in proxies that can't = handle UDP. Heck, tunnel your DNS over TCP then, if your proxy doesn't = support UDP, to pick the route you want your DNS queries to take. > Think of it in VPN terms for a moment. The VPN set-up directs certain > IP subnets through the tunnel interface, which can have effects from = pointing > default through the tunnel to setting up a small number of networks = which > are routed through the tunnel but leaving all others to be routed = outside the > tunnel. The resources available through the tunnel can include > local file servers, smtp servers, and other services which are not = available > from outside because of firewall restrictions. The client needs to > pass at least the > DNS traffic related to those services through the tunnel because of = split > DNS. It is easier to pass *all* DNS through that tunnel if the set of = resources > the client is interested is {globally available services, private > services available > through the tunnel}. When it includes {globally available services, > private services > available through the tunnel, and private services available locally = but not > globally} I have to actually associate which domains are served where, > and the default can go either to local or tunnel, depending on = configuration. And if you do so, how does this draft really affect you? =20 Unless your VPN'ing institution also uses a third party managed DNS = service rather than its own DNS resolver, the information all leaks out = anyway to the authorities. And if your institution does not want this information to leak out, why = is it leaking it en masse to the third party provider which explicitly = says its allowed to use aggregates of that information? And no matter what, you're CDN performance will be painful since your = data IP and query IP are very different, but thats just the limitation = of DNS-based CDNs no matter the information. >> And the problem is, ANY "network mapping of requestor" will probably = violate your privacy scruples: >=20 > No, I'm fine with any mapping that the requester agrees to (a = non-starter in > your option) You don't seem to consider "the user specified this non-default = resolver" as agreement, however. > *or* that is actually a network mapping that doesn't disclose > which IP address or subnet generated the request for the mapping. =20 See above, that's impossible short of noise injection, and noise = injection would be pointless: you're trying to hide things from the = authorities of sites you want to talk to! Else why are you looking up the names at all? The "This option is not exported to the TLD servers" part means only the = authorities YOU are going to talk to receive this information at all. >> The only OTHER option would be to have the authority's response = contain netmask rules and force the CDN processing onto the recursive = resolver, which would be a huge shift in burden. >>=20 >=20 > Is the real problem here a shift in burden of, presumably, processing = power > (since the network traffic might actually be less) or of CDN secret = sauce? > Because if a zone transfer-like mechanism of mapping info can = accomplish > this there is zero privacy implication to my mind, and I would be = interested > to see which of the recursive server operators would say yes to using = it. Such zone-transfer like mechanisms would undoubtedly be constrained by = pairwise agreements between authorities and third-party resolvers, = because there is BOTH secret sauce issues and load issues. So do you really want to ingrain contractual-behavior affecting = performance into DNS!?!? Do you really want contractual barriers to = entry for 3rd party DNS services? >> And if you are really concerned about privacy, I'd look at web = analytics, that is far far FAR FAR more evil in spraying information = around and there IS no opt-out other than technical countermeasures! = You are worried about a paper cut (subnet of requester in a DNS message = using third party DNS infrastructures) when there is arterial bleeding = going on. >>=20 > And this is unrelated to the work going on here. If your objection to something that would greatly improve the ability of = people to use DNS service providers other than those of the ISP only = comes down to protecting privacy, scale matters. So it is related. =20 From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Feb 2 12:56:16 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE3093A6970; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 12:56:16 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.535 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.535 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.064, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ULa09ox6WkDp; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 12:56:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26C073A6949; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 12:56:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NcPiT-0009PJ-Us for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 20:51:21 +0000 Received: from [2001:4f8:3:bb:230:48ff:fe5a:2f38] (helo=nsa.vix.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:CAMELLIA256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NcPiR-0009Ou-KF for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 20:51:19 +0000 Received: from nsa.vix.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nsa.vix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45D94A843B for ; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 20:51:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vixie@nsa.vix.com) From: Paul Vixie To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] Re: EDNS client IP should be opt-in (Was: I-D ACTION:draft-vandergaast-edns-client-ip-00.txt In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue\, 02 Feb 2010 13\:46\:45 +0100." <4B681EB5.9040403@nic.cz> References: <7c31c8cc1001271556w4918093er6e94e07cb92c4dc4@mail.gmail.com> <4B66E441.6090104@nic.cz> <4966825a1002010729m32b5ccfel94f7cb09d8b5e458@mail.gmail.com> <20100202113421.GA31244@nic.fr> <4966825a1002020355s41a182edvbc2fc8045af4a36e@mail.gmail.com> <4B681EB5.9040403@nic.cz> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.1; nil; GNU Emacs 22.2.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Tue, 02 Feb 2010 20:51:19 +0000 Message-ID: <71552.1265143879@nsa.vix.com> Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: > Date: Tue, 02 Feb 2010 13:46:45 +0100 > From: Ond=C5=99ej Sur=C3=BD >=20 > Well I can very easily imagine some big ISP turning this option on without > asking their clients. that all depends on the RFC text. big ISP's sometimes have privacy policies and sometimes do not but they do live in some fear of their regulators. and while i expect BIND would implement this feature, we would never make it the default. so an ISP who turned this on would not have any deniability as to it being their intent that their users have less privacy. and, the cost in terms of memory footprint for their cache, and lower hit rates, will be hig= h. so, i do not expect anyone to turn this on without intending to. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Feb 2 13:33:17 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 999BC3A69A8; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 13:33:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.565 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.565 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.413, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JNTTpBqJMBeD; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 13:33:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 972E83A6972; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 13:33:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NcQH7-000Fvj-R5 for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 21:27:09 +0000 Received: from [216.239.33.17] (helo=smtp-out.google.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NcQH5-000Fv3-Gy for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 21:27:07 +0000 Received: from kpbe18.cbf.corp.google.com (kpbe18.cbf.corp.google.com [172.25.105.82]) by smtp-out.google.com with ESMTP id o12LR5Hn006085 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 21:27:05 GMT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=beta; t=1265146025; bh=HCpZm6U+LUvEeN3ypmRzITzrtNY=; h=MIME-Version:In-Reply-To:References:Date:Message-ID:Subject:From: To:Cc:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=fJL33ZrD/wIfAuaThQGbkYTwGenjy14d0tyRtgcxWcVQzrB6jUcHTO5uH03ASfSVO Fu17c8+BQD9lWQWcTzORA== DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=beta; d=google.com; c=nofws; q=dns; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to: cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:x-system-of-record; b=P8eBM/jXrxkU/jE7dYQGil+w8L+z25WuNoWO/SRQdncZ+/lYGMlMyuoA8s9XoI0Ly Uy09cnzdTZe7++VxfFFCw== Received: from bwz21 (bwz21.prod.google.com [10.188.26.21]) by kpbe18.cbf.corp.google.com with ESMTP id o12LR35K021076 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 13:27:03 -0800 Received: by bwz21 with SMTP id 21so407566bwz.24 for ; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 13:27:02 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.204.24.84 with SMTP id u20mr2685437bkb.164.1265146022715; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 13:27:02 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <71552.1265143879@nsa.vix.com> References: <7c31c8cc1001271556w4918093er6e94e07cb92c4dc4@mail.gmail.com> <4B66E441.6090104@nic.cz> <4966825a1002010729m32b5ccfel94f7cb09d8b5e458@mail.gmail.com> <20100202113421.GA31244@nic.fr> <4966825a1002020355s41a182edvbc2fc8045af4a36e@mail.gmail.com> <4B681EB5.9040403@nic.cz> <71552.1265143879@nsa.vix.com> Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2010 21:27:02 +0000 Message-ID: <7c31c8cc1002021327l4397502bk647f96813ac37948@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [dnsext] Re: EDNS client IP should be opt-in (Was: I-D ACTION:draft-vandergaast-edns-client-ip-00.txt From: Wilmer van der Gaast To: Paul Vixie Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-System-Of-Record: true Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On 2 February 2010 20:51, Paul Vixie wrote: > that all depends on the RFC text. =A0big ISP's sometimes have privacy pol= icies > and sometimes do not but they do live in some fear of their regulators. = =A0and > while i expect BIND would implement this feature, we would never make it = the > default. Note that this is already recommended in the first bullet point in 8.2. Indeed we didn't ever intend this to be an "enabled by default" feature. Wilmer. --=20 Wilmer van der Gaast, Dublin Traffic SRE. Google Ireland. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Feb 2 13:37:38 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5B423A6950; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 13:37:37 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9+lRppLE+dd3; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 13:37:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B2373A6765; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 13:37:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NcQNJ-000GyV-2H for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 21:33:33 +0000 Received: from [2001:4f8:3:bb::5] (helo=farside.isc.org) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NcQNG-000Gy0-V7 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 21:33:30 +0000 Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (drugs.dv.isc.org [IPv6:2001:470:1f00:820:214:22ff:fed9:fbdc]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "drugs.dv.isc.org", Issuer "ISC CA" (not verified)) by farside.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3265CE60DD; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 21:33:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marka@isc.org) Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by drugs.dv.isc.org (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o12LXPXJ063129; Wed, 3 Feb 2010 08:33:27 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from marka@drugs.dv.isc.org) Message-Id: <201002022133.o12LXPXJ063129@drugs.dv.isc.org> To: Alexd@nominet.org.uk Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org From: Mark Andrews References: Subject: Re: [dnsext] Question on NAPTR text format In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 02 Feb 2010 12:05:42 -0000." Date: Wed, 03 Feb 2010 08:33:25 +1100 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: In message , Alexd@nominet.org.uk writes: > Hi - > > I'm hoping somebody can please help me understand how to treat the > following text in a NAPTR/TXT record : > > "blah\2blah" > > We have from RFC 1035 : > > \X where X is any character other than a digit (0-9), is > used to quote that character so that its special meaning > does not apply. For example, "\." can be used to place > a dot character in a label. > > and > > \DDD where each D is a digit is the octet corresponding to > the decimal number described by DDD. The resulting > octet is assumed to be text and is not checked for > special meaning. > > So what happens if there is only one digit, instead of three? (i.e. \D) > > Should this be taken as : > > 1) a one digit decimal number specifying an octet between 0 and 9 (e.g. > \002) > 2) the number character itself (e.g. '2') > 3) an error? It's a error because it is undefined. > I've noticed that different libraries take different views on this, and > thought it would be nice to have more common behaviour. > > Thanks in advance for your help! > > Alex. -- Mark Andrews, ISC 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: marka@isc.org From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Feb 2 13:47:52 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 292C83A6933; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 13:47:52 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mXt3U1P60hi5; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 13:47:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D67E93A69A3; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 13:47:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NcQY3-000J1f-F7 for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 21:44:39 +0000 Received: from [2001:4f8:3:36::28] (helo=white.flame.org) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NcQY1-000J1E-4C for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 21:44:37 +0000 Received: from white.flame.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by white.flame.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94B4217D1E6; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 21:44:36 +0000 (UTC) Received: from bigmac.home.flame.org (unknown [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff9:13:21d:4fff:fe47:6790]) (using SSLv3 with cipher DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by white.flame.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 99E4117D1E5; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 21:44:32 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <4B689CB8.9030702@isc.org> Date: Tue, 02 Feb 2010 15:44:24 -0600 From: Michael Graff User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10.6; en-US; rv:1.9.1.7) Gecko/20100111 Thunderbird/3.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Wilmer van der Gaast CC: DNSEXT WG Subject: Re: [dnsext] Re: EDNS client IP should be opt-in (Was: I-D ACTION:draft-vandergaast-edns-client-ip-00.txt References: <7c31c8cc1001271556w4918093er6e94e07cb92c4dc4@mail.gmail.com> <4B66E441.6090104@nic.cz> <4966825a1002010729m32b5ccfel94f7cb09d8b5e458@mail.gmail.com> <20100202113421.GA31244@nic.fr> <4966825a1002020355s41a182edvbc2fc8045af4a36e@mail.gmail.com> <4B681EB5.9040403@nic.cz> <71552.1265143879@nsa.vix.com> <7c31c8cc1002021327l4397502bk647f96813ac37948@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <7c31c8cc1002021327l4397502bk647f96813ac37948@mail.gmail.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.0 OpenPGP: id=BE9E0FA6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV using ClamSMTP Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2010-02-02 3:27 PM, Wilmer van der Gaast wrote: > Note that this is already recommended in the first bullet point in > 8.2. Indeed we didn't ever intend this to be an "enabled by default" > feature. Then how can this possibly be useful? This sort of optimization requires it to be performed for a large chunk of the users on the net, certainly for large ISPs and wireless providers. While the number of servers may indeed be small, the number of clients benefiting from this (and therefore using it with or without their knowledge) has to be large. - --Michael -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.8 (Darwin) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAktonLcACgkQ+NNi0s9NRJ1N2gCfR6WKrHhnfjFvDwNkAsBswr05 xs8AoKZdIhZwHKYreAW466pkhXqFwENo =4N44 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Feb 2 13:53:25 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B4943A690D; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 13:53:25 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -104.495 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-104.495 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zdtjAXaicOHt; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 13:53:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75B343A67E9; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 13:53:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NcQd5-000K0H-BA for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 21:49:51 +0000 Received: from [192.245.12.227] (helo=balder-227.proper.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NcQd2-000Jzf-Uq for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 21:49:49 +0000 Received: from [75.101.18.87] (75-101-30-90.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net [75.101.30.90]) (authenticated bits=0) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id o12LnkYP076372 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 14:49:47 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from paul.hoffman@vpnc.org) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2010 13:49:44 -0800 To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org From: The IESG Subject: [dnsext] Protocol Action: 'Nameservers for IPv4 and IPv6 Reverse Zones' to BCP Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: The IESG has approved the following document: - 'Nameservers for IPv4 and IPv6 Reverse Zones ' as a BCP This document has been reviewed in the IETF but is not the product of an IETF Working Group. The IESG contact person is Ron Bonica. A URL of this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-jabley-reverse-servers-01.txt Technical Summary This document specifies a stable naming scheme for the nameservers which serve the zones IN-ADDR.ARPA and IP6.ARPA in the DNS. These zones contain data which facilitate reverse mapping (address to name). Working Group Summary This is an individual submission. Document Quality The document has been reviewed by staff from ICANN/IANA, the RIPE NCC, ARIN, LACNIC, APNIC and AfriNIC. It has been further reviewed by the IAB. The document has been cited on the DNSOP mailing list, where one review was published. No negative feedback has been received. The small number of concerns raised by reviews by RIR staff, ICANN/IANA staff, the IAB and the review sent to the DNSOP mailing list have been addressed. The document appears to represent consensus. Personnel Ron Bonica is document shepherd. _______________________________________________ IETF-Announce mailing list IETF-Announce@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Feb 2 13:58:35 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 68E453A69B8; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 13:58:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.558 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.558 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-2.685, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Xox2ud6KNkGL; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 13:58:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85ACD3A6985; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 13:58:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NcQj5-000L6B-4a for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 21:56:03 +0000 Received: from [216.239.44.51] (helo=smtp-out.google.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NcQj2-000L5X-VT for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 21:56:01 +0000 Received: from wpaz1.hot.corp.google.com (wpaz1.hot.corp.google.com [172.24.198.65]) by smtp-out.google.com with ESMTP id o12Lu08Y010486 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 13:56:00 -0800 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=beta; t=1265147760; bh=HNPTGwElQMrxIQu/q0rJ0/wnxus=; h=MIME-Version:In-Reply-To:References:Date:Message-ID:Subject:From: To:Cc:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=jBgCr6OAgjoUAERfTaYzuQvGdsqKtJQYpGcGSTZH/xhp+NKAI/Kbe6dEjzSuoGNtX bFJ2DXq04MK37gMJ40MUg== DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=beta; d=google.com; c=nofws; q=dns; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to: cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:x-system-of-record; b=HIfgXbOUSidAXD3Rz3U+hQYAbsmRe80Vvf/t2dQHJvU0VFmGqBp7yrnN3Pip0rrLG 55zGg+PZGZ9bEP5FRBjEA== Received: from bwz8 (bwz8.prod.google.com [10.188.26.8]) by wpaz1.hot.corp.google.com with ESMTP id o12LtTc7017428 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 13:55:59 -0800 Received: by bwz8 with SMTP id 8so604795bwz.38 for ; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 13:55:58 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.204.10.146 with SMTP id p18mr847543bkp.94.1265147758623; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 13:55:58 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <4B689CB8.9030702@isc.org> References: <7c31c8cc1001271556w4918093er6e94e07cb92c4dc4@mail.gmail.com> <4B66E441.6090104@nic.cz> <4966825a1002010729m32b5ccfel94f7cb09d8b5e458@mail.gmail.com> <20100202113421.GA31244@nic.fr> <4966825a1002020355s41a182edvbc2fc8045af4a36e@mail.gmail.com> <4B681EB5.9040403@nic.cz> <71552.1265143879@nsa.vix.com> <7c31c8cc1002021327l4397502bk647f96813ac37948@mail.gmail.com> <4B689CB8.9030702@isc.org> Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2010 21:55:58 +0000 Message-ID: <7c31c8cc1002021355p6e00eaeeq98b447466549e4ad@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [dnsext] Re: EDNS client IP should be opt-in (Was: I-D ACTION:draft-vandergaast-edns-client-ip-00.txt From: Wilmer van der Gaast To: Michael Graff Cc: DNSEXT WG Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-System-Of-Record: true Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On 2 February 2010 21:44, Michael Graff wrote: >> Note that this is already recommended in the first bullet point in >> 8.2. Indeed we didn't ever intend this to be an "enabled by default" >> feature. > > Then how can this possibly be useful? =A0This sort of optimization > requires it to be performed for a large chunk of the users on the net, > certainly for large ISPs and wireless providers. =A0While the number of > servers may indeed be small, the number of clients benefiting from this > (and therefore using it with or without their knowledge) has to be large. > Only clients of open resolvers and customers of ISPs with more peering points than resolvers will benefit from this. Everybody else can completely ignore this extension. So it seems logical to not turn it on by default, also because it puts significant pressure on caches and generates more load. *If* anyone would turn it on by default, it'd better be mentioned in capitals in the release notes. Wilmer. --=20 Wilmer van der Gaast, Dublin Traffic SRE. Google Ireland. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Feb 2 14:11:37 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DD5C3A688D; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 14:11:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SISZYQxFBvLp; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 14:11:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26AE63A68B8; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 14:11:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NcQur-000NZs-W4 for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 22:08:13 +0000 Received: from [2001:4f8:3:36::28] (helo=white.flame.org) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NcQun-000NZ9-VE for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 22:08:10 +0000 Received: from white.flame.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by white.flame.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 760A217D1E6; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 22:08:09 +0000 (UTC) Received: from bigmac.home.flame.org (unknown [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff9:13:21d:4fff:fe47:6790]) (using SSLv3 with cipher DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by white.flame.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C6E3417D1E5; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 22:08:06 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <4B68A241.3020701@isc.org> Date: Tue, 02 Feb 2010 16:08:01 -0600 From: Michael Graff User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10.6; en-US; rv:1.9.1.7) Gecko/20100111 Thunderbird/3.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Wilmer van der Gaast CC: DNSEXT WG Subject: Re: [dnsext] Re: EDNS client IP should be opt-in (Was: I-D ACTION:draft-vandergaast-edns-client-ip-00.txt References: <7c31c8cc1001271556w4918093er6e94e07cb92c4dc4@mail.gmail.com> <4B66E441.6090104@nic.cz> <4966825a1002010729m32b5ccfel94f7cb09d8b5e458@mail.gmail.com> <20100202113421.GA31244@nic.fr> <4966825a1002020355s41a182edvbc2fc8045af4a36e@mail.gmail.com> <4B681EB5.9040403@nic.cz> <71552.1265143879@nsa.vix.com> <7c31c8cc1002021327l4397502bk647f96813ac37948@mail.gmail.com> <4B689CB8.9030702@isc.org> <7c31c8cc1002021355p6e00eaeeq98b447466549e4ad@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <7c31c8cc1002021355p6e00eaeeq98b447466549e4ad@mail.gmail.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.0 OpenPGP: id=BE9E0FA6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV using ClamSMTP Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 2010-02-02 3:55 PM, Wilmer van der Gaast wrote: > Only clients of open resolvers and customers of ISPs with more peering > points than resolvers will benefit from this. Everybody else can > completely ignore this extension. As a client that is likely true. However, as the topic of this posting is opt-in, not default config, perhaps that's the important thing to discuss. I see the huge benefit large hosting providers get from this extension. As a client, I'd benefit hugely from this perhaps, and my iPhone experience may be better than ever. However, there is a privacy concern, and that is what the opt-in discussion is all about. I also think this is more wide-spread than just the client side. The servers will need to be modified to provide address information as well, and there is no way to do this in AXFR without special changes to group by address/netmask and add OPT records to AXFR. I suspect this will affect interop, and no mention of how to tag this additional data, signal a slave can handle it, nor what happens when a slave does not handle it is mentioned in the draft. - --Michael -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.8 (Darwin) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAktookEACgkQ+NNi0s9NRJ0ydwCfbJ4soBJ/NHmrFPgdeAfZbmRq sCQAnRoj2kRwmLGbU56+GQViz0Z7aDRn =ZPdD -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Feb 2 15:01:25 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1DB1D3A6BA0; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 15:01:25 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.793 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.793 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.745, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 16GLFn+HA2rP; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 15:01:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B4413A6B91; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 15:01:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NcRew-0006Af-L2 for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 22:55:50 +0000 Received: from [192.150.186.11] (helo=fruitcake.ICSI.Berkeley.EDU) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NcReu-0006AL-IX for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 22:55:48 +0000 Received: from [IPv6:::1] (jack.ICSI.Berkeley.EDU [192.150.186.73]) by fruitcake.ICSI.Berkeley.EDU (8.12.11.20060614/8.12.11) with ESMTP id o12MtUpP008419; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 14:55:30 -0800 (PST) References: <7c31c8cc1001271556w4918093er6e94e07cb92c4dc4@mail.gmail.com> <4B66E441.6090104@nic.cz> <4966825a1002010729m32b5ccfel94f7cb09d8b5e458@mail.gmail.com> <20100202113421.GA31244@nic.fr> <4966825a1002020355s41a182edvbc2fc8045af4a36e@mail.gmail.com> <4B681EB5.9040403@nic.cz> <71552.1265143879@nsa.vix.com> <7c31c8cc1002021327l4397502bk647f96813ac37948@mail.gmail.com> <4B689CB8.9030702@isc.org> <7c31c8cc1002021355p6e00eaeeq98b447466549e4ad@mail.gmail.com> <4B68A241.3020701@isc.org> In-Reply-To: <4B68A241.3020701@isc.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-Id: <6AA99721-35D9-4DD3-A81B-B01B207953A5@icsi.berkeley.edu> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: Nicholas Weaver , Wilmer van der Gaast , DNSEXT WG From: Nicholas Weaver Subject: Re: [dnsext] Re: EDNS client IP should be opt-in (Was: I-D ACTION:draft-vandergaast-edns-client-ip-00.txt Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2010 14:55:30 -0800 To: Michael Graff X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On Feb 2, 2010, at 2:08 PM, Michael Graff wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 >=20 > On 2010-02-02 3:55 PM, Wilmer van der Gaast wrote: >> Only clients of open resolvers and customers of ISPs with more = peering >> points than resolvers will benefit from this. Everybody else can >> completely ignore this extension. >=20 > As a client that is likely true. However, as the topic of this = posting > is opt-in, not default config, perhaps that's the important thing to > discuss. >=20 > I see the huge benefit large hosting providers get from this = extension. > As a client, I'd benefit hugely from this perhaps, and my iPhone > experience may be better than ever. Actually, as a client, I hope you'd benefit relatively little if you are = using your ISP's resolution infrastructure and the goal is to convey = network location (rather than arbitrary location, which the resolver = doesn't know anyway).=20 The whole reason why all the CDN tricks work is the external IP where = the DNS comes from tells the CDN what really counts: what network you = are with, and what part of that network you are in, so the CDN-type = transaction can know what set of machines are "best" to return to you = (lowest latency, lowest cost, etc)... And the ISP is best served by building a more distributed DNS = architecture because that minimizes latency of lookups: having cached = DNS go cross-country is a bad design. Thus if, as a client, you'd = benefit from this in your ISP's infrastructure, that implies your ISP's = infrastructure is needlessly centralized and all your lookups are = suffering higher latency. Thus the client benefit is almost exclusively when you use third party = resolution infrastructures, as the CDN-type operations can NOT identify = your network provider and subpiece of that network provider when you use = OpenDNS or Google Public DNS or Ultradns etc.... This is why I find client-opt-in a silly notion to insist on in the = protocol: The opt-in was made by using a third-party resolution = infrastructure in the first place. =20 This doesn't generally make sense for first-party infrastructure, yet = putting opt-in into the protocol is a protocol killer: if we want to do = changes to the stub resolver, I can think of a lot of better ones (like, = say, bypassing the recursive resolver completely because its a lying SOB = that may do such things as wildcard or even Man-in-the-Middle = www.google.com, and instead generating direct requests. And if I care = about privacy, generate direct requests through multiple TOR paths) > I also think this is more wide-spread than just the client side. The > servers will need to be modified to provide address information as = well, > and there is no way to do this in AXFR without special changes to = group > by address/netmask and add OPT records to AXFR. >=20 > I suspect this will affect interop, and no mention of how to tag this > additional data, signal a slave can handle it, nor what happens when a > slave does not handle it is mentioned in the draft. Except that the authorities which would use this information have = already solved this problem. You don't see Akamai or Google fretting = about master/slave coordination, interop, etc. They just do it. The = code path-change on the CDN-using authority side is very small: where = instead of using the resolver's IP in the lookup logic you use the EDNS0 = client-ip value. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Feb 2 15:04:19 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4926F3A6BA4; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 15:04:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id R8EkWKlrwXDE; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 15:04:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47CAA3A6B91; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 15:04:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NcRkQ-0007C8-4Q for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 23:01:30 +0000 Received: from [2001:4f8:3:bb::5] (helo=farside.isc.org) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NcRkO-0007Bk-0K for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 23:01:28 +0000 Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (drugs.dv.isc.org [IPv6:2001:470:1f00:820:214:22ff:fed9:fbdc]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "drugs.dv.isc.org", Issuer "ISC CA" (not verified)) by farside.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F403BE60C7; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 23:01:26 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marka@isc.org) Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by drugs.dv.isc.org (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o12N1M4Z065448; Wed, 3 Feb 2010 10:01:22 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from marka@drugs.dv.isc.org) Message-Id: <201002022301.o12N1M4Z065448@drugs.dv.isc.org> To: Wilmer van der Gaast Cc: Jim Reid , Nicholas Weaver , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org From: Mark Andrews References: <7c31c8cc1001271556w4918093er6e94e07cb92c4dc4@mail.gmail.com> <6e04e83a1002010944q7abfabc6h892ce4cbb1bddcbf@mail.gmail.com> <973B1F15-E822-491E-89BF-F09FC7E67509@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> <6e04e83a1002011109u1cd55c99k8b584648184cdc73@mail.gmail.com> <162E0DB1-EC86-4206-AB36-6FEFA786B24C@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> <6e04e83a1002011402u395f599g74180d28fdbe5707@mail.gmail.com> <939BB577-FDBE-4573-9129-8CA29B0FB493@sackheads.org> <7B06A582-38E3-4387-BA16-932825A4A62B@rfc1035.com> <7c31c8cc1002021029m74d488ep9c2dc888dd1f93d0@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [dnsext] draft-vandergaast-edns-client-ip-00.txt In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 02 Feb 2010 18:29:21 -0000." <7c31c8cc1002021029m74d488ep9c2dc888dd1f93d0@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 03 Feb 2010 10:01:22 +1100 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: In message <7c31c8cc1002021029m74d488ep9c2dc888dd1f93d0@mail.gmail.com>, Wilmer van der Gaast writes: > On 2 February 2010 18:06, Jim Reid wrote: > > > > So, your idea of optional behaviour in some circumstances is to increase DNS > > latency and generate extra queries. I see... > > > Are you trying to say that EDNS0 options should only ever be used for > extensions designed to slow things down? > > Sadly the EDNS0 spec doesn't really describe what an implementation > should do if it sees an unsupported option. So far most of them seem > to just ignore data they don't understand, which is the sanest thing > to do IMHO. A few are different and return something like FORMERR or > just drop the packet altogether. Define EDNS1 so that unknown option behaviour is well defined and forget about EDNS0. EDNS0 servers are supposed to return BADVER to EDNS1 queries regardless of their payload. This is defined in EDNS0. EDNS0 servers that fail to return BADVER are broken and their vendors should be fixing them. Unknown EDNS options behaviour is undefined in EDNS0 so FORMERR is a legitimate response. Also the point of BADVER was to allow a pair of servers to work out what each supported without having to do a big trial and error dance. This working group has be remiss in not using EDNS versioning to signal capabilities properly. > I've dealt with firewalls that drop > any DNS packet with EDNS0 information, getting BIND to work well on > such a network was pretty hard since BIND couldn't be told to disable > EDNS0 globally. Actually you can disable EDNS globally in all current version of BIND. That said you should be replacing / upgrading / reconfiguring the firewall. Cisco and other firewall vendors ship firewalls that are EDNS aware. > If we want to block DNS extensions because of existing broken > implementations, what's the point of developing anything new at all? > > Wilmer. > > -- > Wilmer van der Gaast, Dublin Traffic SRE. > Google Ireland. > -- Mark Andrews, ISC 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: marka@isc.org From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Feb 2 15:14:10 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E20328C129; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 15:14:10 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.546 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.546 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.052, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id a6bJjo-wWcvl; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 15:14:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B826228C123; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 15:14:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NcRtN-0008r8-00 for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 23:10:45 +0000 Received: from [209.85.219.227] (helo=mail-ew0-f227.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NcRtK-0008qX-6J for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 23:10:42 +0000 Received: by ewy27 with SMTP id 27so712051ewy.38 for ; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 15:10:41 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=THMIQjRGbKGSPWqweKIIbmYScByc+da94kngtp+FYAE=; b=cNgS0ujMue8R++PGGcsyhn8WCTMXuM+6kFbPQjH1eOeIzETz/ofZWmRfD7BQ+Bv0qC 28bJOC4EeuPsTMdlGNwNXi7tLPE24FIm/wcnjYakg6IWob1rIabl3Epq3Z83EM3LX6lS 0PNDY/mJc3cgQLXBUQuuTUyKFxkRDjhfPaR4Q= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; b=VF57wsreC/lkI0vP5iz6hdQRUWBhUAK6l+jYuOufVO+Un6evC8jGIrLqPzUWQaFdXl ujPdhfoi6Np281DamZWgzA73EZJ7OOcU+9laQ5YPRFpiRDX3dWBqay0ZT5AzSYv7OZty Xn8QSH/nwcpBeHtzruegV1uL3gx+mcElRkPpw= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.86.135 with SMTP id w7mr108096wee.176.1265152240815; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 15:10:40 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <201002022133.o12LXPXJ063129@drugs.dv.isc.org> References: <201002022133.o12LXPXJ063129@drugs.dv.isc.org> Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2010 18:10:40 -0500 Message-ID: <1028365c1002021510u3a79d437pf3a69c7d5e112770@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [dnsext] Question on NAPTR text format From: Donald Eastlake To: Alexd@nominet.org.uk Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016e6d64956e68f44047ea6355c Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: --0016e6d64956e68f44047ea6355c Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Right, see RFC 4343: "A back-slash followed by only one or two decimal digits is undefined" Donald ============================= Donald E. Eastlake 3rd +1-508-634-2066 (home) 155 Beaver Street Milford, MA 01757 USA d3e3e3@gmail.com On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 4:33 PM, Mark Andrews wrote: > > In message > g.uk>, Alexd@nominet.org.uk writes: > > Hi - > > > > I'm hoping somebody can please help me understand how to treat the > > following text in a NAPTR/TXT record : > > > > "blah\2blah" > > > > We have from RFC 1035 : > > > > \X where X is any character other than a digit (0-9), is > > used to quote that character so that its special meaning > > does not apply. For example, "\." can be used to place > > a dot character in a label. > > > > and > > > > \DDD where each D is a digit is the octet corresponding to > > the decimal number described by DDD. The resulting > > octet is assumed to be text and is not checked for > > special meaning. > > > > So what happens if there is only one digit, instead of three? (i.e. \D) > > > > Should this be taken as : > > > > 1) a one digit decimal number specifying an octet between 0 and 9 (e.g. > > \002) > > 2) the number character itself (e.g. '2') > > 3) an error? > > It's a error because it is undefined. > > > I've noticed that different libraries take different views on this, and > > thought it would be nice to have more common behaviour. > > > > Thanks in advance for your help! > > > > Alex. > -- > Mark Andrews, ISC > 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia > PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: marka@isc.org > > --0016e6d64956e68f44047ea6355c Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Right, see RFC 4343:
"A back-sl= ash followed by only one or two decimal digits is undefined"

Donald
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Donald E. Eastlake 3rd =A0 +1-508-634-2066 = (home)
155 Beaver Street
Milford, MA 01757 USA
d3e3e3@gmail.com


On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 4:33 PM, Mark And= rews <marka@isc.org> wrote:

In message <OF1814005C.703B880F-ON802576BE.00419B44-802576BE.004271B4@no= minet.or
g.uk>, <= a href=3D"mailto:Alexd@nominet.org.uk">Alexd@nominet.org.uk writes:
> Hi -
>
> I'm hoping somebody can please help me understand how to treat the=
> following text in a NAPTR/TXT record =A0:
>
> "blah\2blah"
>
> We have from RFC 1035 :
>
> \X =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0where X is any character other than a di= git (0-9), is
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0used to quote that character so that it= s special meaning
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0does not apply. =A0For example, "\= ." can be used to place
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0a dot character in a label.
>
> and
>
> \DDD =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0where each D is a digit is the octet corre= sponding to
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0the decimal number described by DDD. = =A0The resulting
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0octet is assumed to be text and is not = checked for
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0special meaning.
>
> So what happens if there is only one digit, instead of three? (i.e. \D= )
>
> Should this be taken as :
>
> 1) a one digit decimal number specifying an octet between 0 and 9 (e.g= .
> \002)
> 2) the number character itself (e.g. '2')
> 3) an error?

It's a error because it is undefined.

> I've noticed that different libraries take different views on this= , and
> thought it would be nice to have more common behaviour.
>
> Thanks in advance for your help!
>
> Alex.
--
Mark Andrews, ISC
1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia
PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 INTERNET: marka@isc.org


--0016e6d64956e68f44047ea6355c-- From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Feb 2 16:23:55 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79C723A6A44; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 16:23:55 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.835 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.835 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-2.940, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, J_CHICKENPOX_33=0.6, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YONkEH0X5Iry; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 16:23:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91C273A69EE; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 16:23:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NcSxi-000Jlj-PH for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Wed, 03 Feb 2010 00:19:18 +0000 Received: from [209.85.222.189] (helo=mail-pz0-f189.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NcSxe-000JlE-MN for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 03 Feb 2010 00:19:14 +0000 Received: by pzk27 with SMTP id 27so715932pzk.33 for ; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 16:19:14 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=sTuFc2wyae9WXNS7zKfTa22cJ4ND16tb8faxBK+PGYw=; b=nS+0jFIsUHSof7o2vBWpK7ufqfUpILrpHAcEi8PYFXsz936SYBPZpCJvxTe/CSLL1V CZzsm+cQhwHq74pLQR9srE6IBO7+SQfVhVg1cmP1267ow90J5itNEf2JXOGYLJjStxr3 MlkmrtkZntjXn/gpzqw3wCzyxlF4BV8dZHH7M= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=AeHW4FX+EwUXsxo4/1Vcfksek7I3bhQdI74gFcsra/IbUUqCoH2lpGYaEFAzPXj6iq Aig19Vcix1FYuStSrhslYJvBonDb4KFCKzt1/GN0dgusGdv79zoxmh4ee2I3bE5KLfBZ NYC5icnYpCrR5FzYY7uCFHsxPJ79pEZTVsOh0= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.142.151.10 with SMTP id y10mr4508839wfd.110.1265156354204; Tue, 02 Feb 2010 16:19:14 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <7c31c8cc1001271556w4918093er6e94e07cb92c4dc4@mail.gmail.com> <973B1F15-E822-491E-89BF-F09FC7E67509@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> <6e04e83a1002011109u1cd55c99k8b584648184cdc73@mail.gmail.com> <162E0DB1-EC86-4206-AB36-6FEFA786B24C@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> <6e04e83a1002011402u395f599g74180d28fdbe5707@mail.gmail.com> <6e04e83a1002011640t1b637e30gd7d0150eeb0fae8d@mail.gmail.com> <6e04e83a1002021155kcb908b1v71d362e03e7c4002@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2010 16:19:14 -0800 Message-ID: <6e04e83a1002021619s15c3972fi96f48ec8ba93b428@mail.gmail.com> Subject: [dnsext] Re: Privacy vs EDNS Client IP... From: Ted Hardie To: Nicholas Weaver Cc: John Payne , Roy Arends , Wilmer van der Gaast , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: In-line, but getting to be less and less, as the space where we're not just wearing holes in the carpet seems to be shrinking. On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 12:45 PM, Nicholas Weaver wrote: > > On Feb 2, 2010, at 11:55 AM, Ted Hardie wrote: >> Again, I think you're conflating the terms of service for a particular >> actor with the protocol semantics here. =A0You may be right that some >> 3rd party agreements allow one of the parties to set the ravish-me bit, >> but that doesn't make it okay to assume that all DNS users have agreed >> to the disclosure of this data. =A0This wasn't possible before and they >> have not opted-in. =A0You and I may disagree about whether or not they >> should, but let's at least be cleared that they have not. >> >> Separately, I agree with Stephane's comments on the method for opting ou= t >> in the draft requiring work and having potential deployment difficulties= . > > No, I am saying that the cases where this would be used, the users have a= lready opted-in to the usage of a system like this, and extensions like thi= s are already covered in the terms of service. > > Do you NOT consider explicit selection of a third-party resolver a signif= icant opt-in action? > Not when many of the folks who chose such a resolver did so when this optio= n was not known or available. I recognize that we're likely never going to a= gree on this point one way or the other, but please understand that your view is not universal. > > Actually, it does, here's why: > > Network proximity, with any decent quality, be it AS number, hash of AS n= umber, subnet mask, truncated AS path, magic-pixie-number, etc, will leak s= imilar amounts of information. =A0It has to, because it always has to say "= the user is in this part of the network space", its just a matter of how to= say it and with what precision: be it subnet, most specific AS number, or = pixie-dust: they all say "where you are". > > And, like GeoIP, or Wifi Mac address -> location, or whatever, there will= be databases made to unify them all, so we might as well call them roughly= equivalent to start with and save us the headache of every alternate form = getting the same objections from different people. > > > Hashing type tricks don't help either, because the search space is way to= o small. =A0With a network describable by 10K-100K+ points of locality, the= re simply isn't enough search space to make hashing tricks work. > > QED: =A0Network proximity is privacy sensitive by your definition, in any= form, because they are all roughly equivalent with the only difference bei= ng degrees of precision. > This starts from the premise that the resolver has to disclose this privacy-sensitive information in order to get a meaningful result back. Anything that starte= d out without that privacy-sensitive information would be better, in my opinion, = and I do not agree that disclosing this information in order to get the mapping= data is absolutely required. It's a trade-off between amount disclosed by the CDN (secret sauce) vs. the customers (privacy). With an opt-out only mechanism, we also have no way to judge how many of th= e customers would voluntarily give their data to get the better performance; = it might be the overwhelming majority. But you are treating opt-in as a compl= ete non-starter; if you had not, you and I could be talking about how to create informed consent from the user to the authority instead. As I said before, I would be fine with this as an opt-in; that enables the users to retain their current levels of privacy by default. > IP subnet just happens to be a very convenient one, because the CDNs are = already optimized around that as the metric. =A0But most specific AS or AS-= path fragment would be effectively equivalent in information leakage. > > > >> We seem to be talking at cross purposes here. =A0Let me try again. =A0Th= is proposal >> would have the option be present whenever a recursive resolver talks to = an >> authoritative server if it is globally set. =A0That means that this >> information passes >> to every authoritative server, whether the authoritative server is >> localizing information >> or not. =A0That means the universe of leaked data is not "Users of 3rd p= arty DNS >> requesting info about =A0localized servers" but potentially "users of 3r= d party >> DNS requesting info from anyone". =A0We don't disagree about whether som= eone >> running their own recursive resolver or using a local one is already dis= closing >> (at least I don't think we do). >> >> If this is not set globally, then the recursive resolver has to >> maintain a table or >> set of rules that notes when it should be sent and when it should not. = =A0I'm not >> sure how it gets knowledge of which services are localized, so it is >> my expectation >> that anyone who turned it on would leave it on for all queries to author= itative >> servers. =A0I could be wrong, of course, and some other pattern might ea= sily >> emerge. > > And you seem to be missing my point: =A0For users of 1st party resolvers,= this information or something semantically equivalent is already being lea= ked to ALL authorities. > We agree; it is possible to configure a system so that this does not leak, but those who use a resolver on their system or very close to it are leakin= g this data now. > Just because only a few authorities are USING CDN-like tricks doesn't mea= n that all authorities aren't already receiving the same network locality i= nformation, they just are not bothering to infer anything about it. > Except for those who are not using nearby resolvers; I think we agree on this point as well. >> >> SOCKS 4 did not; SOCKS 5 added support for it, but in many installations >> it requires explicitly directing the DNS traffic through the tunnel. =A0= SOCKS >> can leak DNS in cases where the tunnel is set up per application and DNS= /UDP is >> not explicitly redirected. =A0Some other forms of proxy don't handle UDP= at all. > > That does not mean we should work around bugs in proxies that can't handl= e UDP. =A0Heck, tunnel your DNS over TCP then, if your proxy doesn't suppor= t UDP, to pick the route you want your DNS queries to take. > This requires a customer configuration change to maintain the same level of privacy as proxy + 3rd party resolver achieves now. How do I notify the affected users they need to change, given that this change in behavior is not on-path for the customer and they cannot detect it? > >> Think of it in VPN terms for a moment. =A0The VPN set-up directs certain >> IP subnets through the tunnel interface, which can have effects from poi= nting >> default through the tunnel to setting up a small number of networks whic= h >> are routed through the tunnel but leaving all others to be routed outsid= e the >> tunnel. =A0The resources available through the tunnel can include >> local file servers, smtp servers, and other services which are not avail= able >> from outside because of firewall restrictions. =A0The client needs to >> pass at least the >> DNS traffic related to those services through the tunnel because of spli= t >> DNS. =A0It is easier to pass *all* DNS through that tunnel if the set of= resources >> the client is interested is {globally available services, private >> services available >> through the tunnel}. =A0When it includes {globally available services, >> private services >> available through the tunnel, and private services available locally but= not >> globally} I have to actually associate which domains are served where, >> and the default can go either to local or tunnel, depending on configura= tion. > > And if you do so, how does this draft really affect you? > > Unless your VPN'ing institution also uses a third party managed DNS servi= ce rather than its own DNS resolver, the information all leaks out anyway t= o the authorities. > > And if your institution does not want this information to leak out, why i= s it leaking it en masse to the third party provider which explicitly says = its allowed to use aggregates of that information? > > And no matter what, you're CDN performance will be painful since your dat= a IP and query IP are very different, but thats just the limitation of DNS-= based CDNs no matter the information. > > I was just answering your question about why someone would have DNS go out a tunnel interface. I think it is more common than your current data may suggest, because the kinds of clients that are doing this tend to be mobile rather t= han nomadic. This implies, to me, that an opt-in mechanism in which the client populated the IP it is using on the visited network up the DNS chain might actually get traction in that part of the ecosystem. Note, however, that this still doesn't require that this get passed all the way to the authority; the CDN providin= g mappings to interested resolvers works here just as well. > >>> And the problem is, ANY "network mapping of requestor" will probably vi= olate your privacy scruples: >> >> No, I'm fine with any mapping that the requester agrees to (a non-starte= r in >> your option) > > You don't seem to consider "the user specified this non-default resolver"= as agreement, however. > > >> *or* that is actually a network mapping that doesn't disclose >> which IP address or subnet generated the request for the mapping. > > See above, that's impossible short of noise injection, and noise injectio= n would be pointless: you're trying to hide things from the authorities of = sites you want to talk to! > > Else why are you looking up the names at all? > > The "This option is not exported to the TLD servers" part means only the = authorities YOU are going to talk to receive this information at all. > > >>> The only OTHER option would be to have the authority's response contain= netmask rules and force the CDN processing onto the recursive resolver, wh= ich would be a huge shift in burden. >>> >> >> Is the real problem here a shift in burden of, presumably, processing po= wer >> (since the network traffic might actually be less) or of CDN secret sauc= e? >> Because if a zone transfer-like mechanism of mapping info can accomplish >> this there is zero privacy implication to my mind, and I would be intere= sted >> to see which of the recursive server operators would say yes to using it= . > > Such zone-transfer like mechanisms would undoubtedly be constrained by pa= irwise agreements between authorities and third-party resolvers, because th= ere is BOTH secret sauce issues and load issues. > > So do you really want to ingrain contractual-behavior affecting performan= ce into DNS!?!? =A0Do you really want contractual barriers to entry for 3rd= party DNS services? > > You seem to want to rely on contractual language between 3rd party servers and their clients. If 3rd party resolver X doesn't bother getting data fro= m CDN Y, they are no worse off than now. They can opt-in to it, just as they can opt-in to sending client IPs; the amount of data and work are different= , but so is the customer experience. The key question is who should be sending data to whom? Does the CDN reveal data in bulk to interested resolvers? Or does the resolver reveal data en masse to authorities? > >>> And if you are really concerned about privacy, I'd look at web analytic= s, that is far far FAR FAR more evil in spraying information around and the= re IS no opt-out other than technical countermeasures! =A0You are worried a= bout a paper cut (subnet of requester in a DNS message using third party DN= S infrastructures) when there is arterial bleeding going on. >>> >> And this is unrelated to the work going on here. > > If your objection to something that would greatly improve the ability of = people to use DNS service providers other than those of the ISP only comes = down to protecting privacy, scale matters. =A0So it is related. > I don't understand how your point about web analytics/scale relates to which problems the WG is chartered for. But please don't worry about it; that particular tendril of fog doesn't need much blowing away. regards, Ted Hardie From encodesfl674@mpom.ru Tue Feb 2 16:40:13 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3A6E3A6BA9 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 16:40:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -25.542 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-25.542 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, HELO_DYNAMIC_HCC=4.295, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2=4.395, HELO_DYNAMIC_SPLIT_IP=3.493, HELO_EQ_DSL=1.129, HELO_EQ_IP_ADDR=1.119, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RCVD_NUMERIC_HELO=2.067, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.931, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id t+aQzL84t4uY for ; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 16:40:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from 37.42.56.190.dsl.intelnet.net.gt (37.42.56.190.dsl.intelnet.net.gt [190.56.42.37]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B672E3A6BA8 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 16:40:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from 190.56.42.37 by mpom.ru; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 18:40:41 -0600 Message-ID: <000d01caa469$834ca4c0$6400a8c0@encodesfl674> From: To: Subject: You have little joy in life? 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------=_NextPart_000_044C_01CAA469.834CA4C0-- From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Feb 2 16:46:27 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2890D3A6A3B; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 16:46:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lLmLTYesqJ4s; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 16:46:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC7043A6BA8; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 16:46:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NcTKW-000Mud-O0 for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Wed, 03 Feb 2010 00:42:52 +0000 Received: from [2001:478:6:0:230:48ff:fe11:220a] (helo=vacation.karoshi.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NcTKP-000Mfz-0M for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 03 Feb 2010 00:42:47 +0000 Received: from karoshi.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by vacation.karoshi.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o130fLtv001418; Wed, 3 Feb 2010 00:41:21 GMT Received: (from bmanning@localhost) by karoshi.com (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id o130fLj9001417; Wed, 3 Feb 2010 00:41:21 GMT Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2010 00:41:21 +0000 From: bmanning@vacation.karoshi.com To: The IESG Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] Protocol Action: 'Nameservers for IPv4 and IPv6 Reverse Zones' to BCP Message-ID: <20100203004121.GA1374@vacation.karoshi.com.> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: have the existing operators been consulted? --bill On Tue, Feb 02, 2010 at 01:49:44PM -0800, The IESG wrote: > The IESG has approved the following document: > > - 'Nameservers for IPv4 and IPv6 Reverse Zones ' > as a BCP > > This document has been reviewed in the IETF but is not the product of an > IETF Working Group. > > The IESG contact person is Ron Bonica. > > A URL of this Internet-Draft is: > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-jabley-reverse-servers-01.txt > > Technical Summary > > This document specifies a stable naming scheme for the nameservers which > serve the zones IN-ADDR.ARPA and IP6.ARPA in the DNS. These zones contain > data which facilitate reverse mapping (address to name). > > Working Group Summary > > This is an individual submission. > > Document Quality > > The document has been reviewed by staff from ICANN/IANA, the RIPE NCC, > ARIN, LACNIC, APNIC and AfriNIC. It has been further reviewed by the IAB. > The document has been cited on the DNSOP mailing list, where one review > was published. No negative feedback has been received. The small number of > concerns raised by reviews by RIR staff, ICANN/IANA staff, the IAB and the > review sent to the DNSOP mailing list have been addressed. > > The document appears to represent consensus. > > Personnel > > Ron Bonica is document shepherd. > > _______________________________________________ > IETF-Announce mailing list > IETF-Announce@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Feb 2 17:43:21 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2C1328C117; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 17:43:21 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.765 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.765 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.717, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lKLP96DpwpDd; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 17:43:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B4BC28C139; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 17:43:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NcUBr-0006U6-VF for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Wed, 03 Feb 2010 01:37:59 +0000 Received: from [192.150.186.11] (helo=fruitcake.ICSI.Berkeley.EDU) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NcUBp-0006Ti-KH for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 03 Feb 2010 01:37:57 +0000 Received: from [IPv6:::1] (jack.ICSI.Berkeley.EDU [192.150.186.73]) by fruitcake.ICSI.Berkeley.EDU (8.12.11.20060614/8.12.11) with ESMTP id o131bYgx029285; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 17:37:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: [dnsext] Re: Privacy vs EDNS Client IP... Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Nicholas Weaver In-Reply-To: <6e04e83a1002021619s15c3972fi96f48ec8ba93b428@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2010 17:37:34 -0800 Cc: Nicholas Weaver , John Payne , Roy Arends , Wilmer van der Gaast , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <7c31c8cc1001271556w4918093er6e94e07cb92c4dc4@mail.gmail.com> <973B1F15-E822-491E-89BF-F09FC7E67509@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> <6e04e83a1002011109u1cd55c99k8b584648184cdc73@mail.gmail.com> <162E0DB1-EC86-4206-AB36-6FEFA786B24C@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> <6e04e83a1002011402u395f599g74180d28fdbe5707@mail.gmail.com> <6e04e83a1002011640t1b637e30gd7d0150eeb0fae8d@mail.gmail.com> <6e04e83a1002021155kcb908b1v71d362e03e7c4002@mail.gmail.com> <6e04e83a1002021619s15c3972fi96f48ec8ba93b428@mail.gmail.com> To: Ted Hardie X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: My last comments on this: On Feb 2, 2010, at 4:19 PM, Ted Hardie wrote: > With an opt-out only mechanism, we also have no way to judge how many = of the > customers would voluntarily give their data to get the better = performance; it > might be the overwhelming majority. But you are treating opt-in as a = complete > non-starter; if you had not, you and I could be talking about how to = create > informed consent from the user to the authority instead. As I said = before, > I would be fine with this as an opt-in; that enables the users to = retain > their current levels of privacy by default. If opt-in is engineered in the PROTOCOL, it really is a non-starter, = because opt-in in the protocol requires changing stub resolvers, and if = we change stub resolvers, there are far better changes to make first. My preferred one would be eliminating recursive resolvers entirely from = the protocol's usage for anything that the stub resolver can't verify = with DNSSEC with a chain of trust from a signed root: the recursive = resolver is a proven security and privacy threat that should be = eliminated from the architecture entirely.=20 If opt-in is not assumed by an already made explicit choice of resolver = when such a feature already complies with the existing terms of service, = there is no benefit: OpenDNS and Google Public DNS have gone out of = their way to advertise particular "set your DNS here" addresses. That = goes out the window. So why bother developing this further, since these = are the parties who want it, and who have invested a large amount of = time and effort into advertising these IP addresses? Basically, neither of your opt-in choice can work. So I think we can conclude there is a fundamental difference:=20 You believe there are a significant number of users who a) Deliberately chose a third party resolver b) Chose the third party resolver to somehow prevent information = leakage and that if these can't be accomidated, you don't want the protocol. I believe that a) Most users who chose a third party resolver did not do so for = privacy reasons, and are already covered under a contractual = relationship with the third party resolver which would enable this = feature under the existing terms of service b) Those who did, even in the current infrastructure, made a very poor = decision that does not significantly enhance their privacy and, if = anything, significantly degrades their privacy protections. And therefore the significant benefit to all the other users of third = party resolvers, and the ability to make sure that third party resolvers = both work with CDN-style DNS and don't have barriers to entry is far = more useful than preserving what privacy protection may be lost. >> And you seem to be missing my point: For users of 1st party = resolvers, this information or something semantically equivalent is = already being leaked to ALL authorities. >>=20 >=20 > We agree; it is possible to configure a system so that this does not = leak, > but those who use a resolver on their system or very close to it are = leaking > this data now. Why do you think that using a third-party resolver is a good solution = for privacy protection? Any savings you get by having some requests = cached and some requests through their resolver address are lost by = giving your entire request stream to companies which specifically states = it has the right to datamine the results in the terms of service. =20 For at least one major provider, Google, the ability to datamine the = query stream is the ONLY revenue source! >> Such zone-transfer like mechanisms would undoubtedly be constrained = by pairwise agreements between authorities and third-party resolvers, = because there is BOTH secret sauce issues and load issues. >>=20 >> So do you really want to ingrain contractual-behavior affecting = performance into DNS!?!? Do you really want contractual barriers to = entry for 3rd party DNS services? >>=20 >>=20 >=20 > You seem to want to rely on contractual language between 3rd party = servers > and their clients. If 3rd party resolver X doesn't bother getting = data from > CDN Y, they are no worse off than now. They can opt-in to it, just as = they > can opt-in to sending client IPs; the amount of data and work are = different, > but so is the customer experience. I want to take advantage of existing contractual relationships between = the client and third-party resolvers, yes. Why create a new mechanism = when existing mechanisms will suffice? How much opt-in is enough? I don't want to create an incentive for contractual relationships = between CDNs and third party resolvers, because that will create = barriers to entry for anyone else wanting to do "better DNS" > The key question is who should be sending data to whom? Does the CDN > reveal data in bulk to interested resolvers? Or does the resolver = reveal > data en masse to authorities? No CDN, because of secret sauce concerns, will reveal the data to ALL = interested resolvers: This is saying "support zone transfers"-type = logic to everyone. Can you believe ANY CDN would do such a thing? = We've gone through years of advice of "disable zone transfers", and now = you'd want the CDN's to enable-zone transfer equivelents? Thus they would ONLY reveal data to pairwise agreements, which creates = barriers to entry for other third party resolvers. Do you really want to ensure that the only solution is anticompetitive? =20= > I don't understand how your point about web analytics/scale relates to > which problems > the WG is chartered for. But please don't worry about it; that > particular tendril of > fog doesn't need much blowing away. Yes it does: All costs are relative. You don't go fretting about $1 = budget items if you have $1M problems. =20 The scale of the problem from APIs and analytics is so much greater than = the information leakage you'd generate if you generated all requests = through a resolver on your computer (which is far more leakage than you = are worried about here). For those who don't think its a problem, do a = search in your cookie store for __utma. Or run an IDS and look at all = the "fetches" for images to google-analytics. And content yourself with = the fiction that google does not consider the IP address PII for the = purpose of analytics... Until you are running techniques to block analytics, APIs, etc, who = cares about if DNS starts leaking the subnet you are on when you are = using a third-party resolver, only to the authorities for the names you = are query, and that already reserved the right to datamine "aggregate" = query streams? 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------=_NextPart_000_044C_01CAA474.55AAD0E0-- From bobsuki62@gcowenlaw.com Tue Feb 2 18:53:42 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D66E03A69B6; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 18:53:42 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -33.567 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-33.567 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_FAKE_RCVD_LINE_B=5.777, HELO_EQ_BR=0.955, HOST_EQ_BR=1.295, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8jNQinTKHc+A; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 18:53:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from r336-pf-anhanduiguacu.ibys.com.br (r326-pf-banguacu.ibys.com.br [187.62.36.19]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3DBC23A6870; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 18:53:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from 187.62.36.19 by mail.gcowenlaw.com; Wed, 3 Feb 2010 00:53:55 -0300 Message-ID: <000d01caa47c$20621800$6400a8c0@bobsuki62> From: dnsext-archive@ietf.org To: Subject: My Tender Bear - you missed me? Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2010 00:53:55 -0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0007_01CAA47C.20621800" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE 6.00.2800.1158 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01CAA47C.20621800 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A year ago you came to Russia, I remember you, write me! 100% check - pleas= e visit ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01CAA47C.20621800 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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------=_NextPart_000_0007_01CAA47C.20621800-- From diffserv-interest-bounces@ietf.org Tue Feb 2 18:53:43 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dnsext-archive@ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A743D3A6BBB for ; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 18:53:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: The results of your email commands From: diffserv-interest-bounces@ietf.org To: dnsext-archive@ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2030079438==" Message-ID: Date: Tue, 02 Feb 2010 18:53:43 -0800 Precedence: bulk X-BeenThere: diffserv-interest@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 List-Id: Differentiated services general discussion X-List-Administrivia: yes Sender: diffserv-interest-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: diffserv-interest-bounces@ietf.org --===============2030079438== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The results of your email command are provided below. Attached is your original message. - Results: Ignoring non-text/plain MIME parts - Unprocessed: e visit - Done. --===============2030079438== Content-Type: message/rfc822 MIME-Version: 1.0 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diffserv-interest-request@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: diffserv-interest-request@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D66E03A69B6; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 18:53:42 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -33.567 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-33.567 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_FAKE_RCVD_LINE_B=5.777, HELO_EQ_BR=0.955, HOST_EQ_BR=1.295, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8jNQinTKHc+A; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 18:53:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from r336-pf-anhanduiguacu.ibys.com.br (r326-pf-banguacu.ibys.com.br [187.62.36.19]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3DBC23A6870; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 18:53:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from 187.62.36.19 by mail.gcowenlaw.com; Wed, 3 Feb 2010 00:53:55 -0300 Message-ID: <000d01caa47c$20621800$6400a8c0@bobsuki62> From: dnsext-archive@ietf.org To: Subject: My Tender Bear - you missed me? Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2010 00:53:55 -0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0007_01CAA47C.20621800" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE 6.00.2800.1158 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01CAA47C.20621800 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A year ago you came to Russia, I remember you, write me! 100% check - pleas= e visit ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01CAA47C.20621800 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
A year ago you came to Russia, I remembe= r you, write me! 100% check = - please visit
------=_NextPart_000_0007_01CAA47C.20621800-- --===============2030079438==-- From dnsop-bounces@ietf.org Tue Feb 2 18:53:43 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dnsext-archive@ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC9AD3A6BBB for ; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 18:53:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: The results of your email commands From: dnsop-bounces@ietf.org To: dnsext-archive@ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1904386686==" Message-ID: Date: Tue, 02 Feb 2010 18:53:43 -0800 Precedence: bulk X-BeenThere: dnsop@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 List-Id: IETF DNSOP WG mailing list X-List-Administrivia: yes Sender: dnsop-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: dnsop-bounces@ietf.org --===============1904386686== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The results of your email command are provided below. Attached is your original message. - Results: Ignoring non-text/plain MIME parts - Unprocessed: e visit - Done. --===============1904386686== Content-Type: message/rfc822 MIME-Version: 1.0 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dnsop-request@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: dnsop-request@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D66E03A69B6; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 18:53:42 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -33.567 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-33.567 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_FAKE_RCVD_LINE_B=5.777, HELO_EQ_BR=0.955, HOST_EQ_BR=1.295, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8jNQinTKHc+A; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 18:53:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from r336-pf-anhanduiguacu.ibys.com.br (r326-pf-banguacu.ibys.com.br [187.62.36.19]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3DBC23A6870; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 18:53:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from 187.62.36.19 by mail.gcowenlaw.com; Wed, 3 Feb 2010 00:53:55 -0300 Message-ID: <000d01caa47c$20621800$6400a8c0@bobsuki62> From: dnsext-archive@ietf.org To: Subject: My Tender Bear - you missed me? Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2010 00:53:55 -0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0007_01CAA47C.20621800" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE 6.00.2800.1158 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01CAA47C.20621800 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A year ago you came to Russia, I remember you, write me! 100% check - pleas= e visit ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01CAA47C.20621800 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
A year ago you came to Russia, I remembe= r you, write me! 100% check = - please visit
------=_NextPart_000_0007_01CAA47C.20621800-- --===============1904386686==-- From bobsuki62@gcowenlaw.com Tue Feb 2 18:53:42 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D66E03A69B6; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 18:53:42 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -33.567 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-33.567 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_FAKE_RCVD_LINE_B=5.777, HELO_EQ_BR=0.955, HOST_EQ_BR=1.295, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8jNQinTKHc+A; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 18:53:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from r336-pf-anhanduiguacu.ibys.com.br (r326-pf-banguacu.ibys.com.br [187.62.36.19]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3DBC23A6870; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 18:53:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from 187.62.36.19 by mail.gcowenlaw.com; Wed, 3 Feb 2010 00:53:55 -0300 Message-ID: <000d01caa47c$20621800$6400a8c0@bobsuki62> From: dnsext-archive@ietf.org To: Subject: My Tender Bear - you missed me? Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2010 00:53:55 -0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0007_01CAA47C.20621800" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE 6.00.2800.1158 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01CAA47C.20621800 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A year ago you came to Russia, I remember you, write me! 100% check - pleas= e visit ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01CAA47C.20621800 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
A year ago you came to Russia, I remembe= r you, write me! 100% check = - please visit
------=_NextPart_000_0007_01CAA47C.20621800-- From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Feb 2 19:17:26 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8F3B3A6A16; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 19:17:26 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id q1rlM1RlVHLy; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 19:17:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2AE33A69F3; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 19:17:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NcVfC-000M1Y-Ma for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Wed, 03 Feb 2010 03:12:22 +0000 Received: from [2001:478:6:0:230:48ff:fe11:220a] (helo=vacation.karoshi.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NcVfA-000LqZ-D4 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 03 Feb 2010 03:12:20 +0000 Received: from karoshi.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by vacation.karoshi.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o133Ajtv002429; Wed, 3 Feb 2010 03:10:45 GMT Received: (from bmanning@localhost) by karoshi.com (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id o133AgJs002428; Wed, 3 Feb 2010 03:10:42 GMT Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2010 03:10:42 +0000 From: bmanning@vacation.karoshi.com To: Nicholas Weaver Cc: Ted Hardie , John Payne , Roy Arends , Wilmer van der Gaast , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] Re: Privacy vs EDNS Client IP... Message-ID: <20100203031042.GE1374@vacation.karoshi.com.> References: <6e04e83a1002010944q7abfabc6h892ce4cbb1bddcbf@mail.gmail.com> <973B1F15-E822-491E-89BF-F09FC7E67509@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> <6e04e83a1002011109u1cd55c99k8b584648184cdc73@mail.gmail.com> <162E0DB1-EC86-4206-AB36-6FEFA786B24C@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> <6e04e83a1002011402u395f599g74180d28fdbe5707@mail.gmail.com> <6e04e83a1002011640t1b637e30gd7d0150eeb0fae8d@mail.gmail.com> <6e04e83a1002021155kcb908b1v71d362e03e7c4002@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On Tue, Feb 02, 2010 at 12:45:20PM -0800, Nicholas Weaver wrote: > > On Feb 2, 2010, at 11:55 AM, Ted Hardie wrote: > > Again, I think you're conflating the terms of service for a particular > > actor with the protocol semantics here. You may be right that some > > 3rd party agreements allow one of the parties to set the ravish-me bit, > > but that doesn't make it okay to assume that all DNS users have agreed > > to the disclosure of this data. This wasn't possible before and they > > have not opted-in. You and I may disagree about whether or not they > > should, but let's at least be cleared that they have not. > > > > Separately, I agree with Stephane's comments on the method for opting out > > in the draft requiring work and having potential deployment difficulties. > > No, I am saying that the cases where this would be used, the users have already opted-in to the usage of a system like this, and extensions like this are already covered in the terms of service. > > Do you NOT consider explicit selection of a third-party resolver a significant opt-in action? > hum... this leaps out. being in a situation where your choice is: a) leave the computer off and read a book or b) use the DHCP server in the hotel and get forced into using the DNS resolvers they hand you... while never knowing if their resolvers have set the "ravish-me" bit. what other opt-in choice would you have? DHCP is not tolerant of nodes that want to order DHCP offered services "al-cart". --bill From snugly3@pcrp.perm.ru Tue Feb 2 20:47:43 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 148093A68BD; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 20:47:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -46.259 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-46.259 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2=4.395, HOST_EQ_STATIC=1.172, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.931, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kRMBmbpf0Oiv; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 20:47:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from 93-103-128-136.static.t-2.net (93-103-128-136.static.t-2.net [93.103.128.136]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19E323A6889; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 20:47:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from 93.103.128.136 by pcrp.perm.ru; Wed, 3 Feb 2010 05:48:20 +0100 Message-ID: <000d01caa48c$1c3df680$6400a8c0@snugly3> From: To: Subject: You have little joy in life? Lacks warmth and affection? Come to me. Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2010 05:48:20 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_044C_01CAA48C.1C3DF680" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 14.0.8089.726 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V14.0.8089.726 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_044C_01CAA48C.1C3DF680 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable You remember that day at the beach? "I'll immediately noticed!=20 Take a step to visit ------=_NextPart_000_044C_01CAA48C.1C3DF680 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

You remember = that day at the beach? "I'll immediately noticed!

Take a step to visit

------=_NextPart_000_044C_01CAA48C.1C3DF680-- From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Feb 2 22:57:23 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5D2E3A697D; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 22:57:23 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id y6f9VktQG45T; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 22:57:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE8983A68AC; Tue, 2 Feb 2010 22:57:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NcZ4e-0002XW-Mp for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Wed, 03 Feb 2010 06:50:52 +0000 Received: from [2001:4900:1:392:213:20ff:fe1b:3bfe] (helo=monster.hopcount.ca) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NcZ4a-0002Wd-SB for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 03 Feb 2010 06:50:49 +0000 Received: from [219.127.109.2] (helo=[10.0.1.9]) by monster.hopcount.ca with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES128-SHA:128) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NcZ4Q-0003wT-FX; Wed, 03 Feb 2010 06:50:39 +0000 Subject: Re: [dnsext] Protocol Action: 'Nameservers for IPv4 and IPv6 Reverse Zones' to BCP Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Joe Abley In-Reply-To: <20100203004121.GA1374@vacation.karoshi.com.> Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2010 15:50:34 +0900 Cc: The IESG , "namedroppers@ops.ietf.org WG" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <39EAB7B2-7BA8-4790-8D08-1BBE0DCEC282@hopcount.ca> References: <20100203004121.GA1374@vacation.karoshi.com.> To: bmanning@vacation.karoshi.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 219.127.109.2 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: jabley@hopcount.ca X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on monster.hopcount.ca); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On 2010-02-03, at 09:41, bmanning@vacation.karoshi.com wrote: > have the existing operators been consulted? With respect to the naming scheme, the existing operators were consulted = along with everybody else as part of the document's last-call. With respect to the proposal to re-delegate IN-ADDR.ARPA and IP6.ARPA = all the existing operators were consulted before = draft-jabley-reverse-servers-00 was submitted. Joe= From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Feb 3 01:41:12 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 515FE3A6BD7; Wed, 3 Feb 2010 01:41:12 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -104.29 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-104.29 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.417, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id i4-fYqU5TIHh; Wed, 3 Feb 2010 01:41:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D48EE3A6BD5; Wed, 3 Feb 2010 01:41:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NcbeV-0001nx-C6 for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Wed, 03 Feb 2010 09:36:03 +0000 Received: from [216.239.33.17] (helo=smtp-out.google.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NcbeQ-0001m3-KA for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 03 Feb 2010 09:35:59 +0000 Received: from kpbe11.cbf.corp.google.com (kpbe11.cbf.corp.google.com [172.25.105.75]) by smtp-out.google.com with ESMTP id o139ZtXj011263 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 2010 09:35:56 GMT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=beta; t=1265189756; bh=iVVPbCX4wTpX9gtupw+xRD36sKY=; h=MIME-Version:In-Reply-To:References:Date:Message-ID:Subject:From: To:Cc:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=WGtBwycgRLBAHc3Wei3nRHQrm6YVV93IyR+MlTJ0tIB3gTwk8CX4o3xoX/88e8fLl i1QG6OXBnvZyENg+Z+Rmg== DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=beta; d=google.com; c=nofws; q=dns; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to: cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:x-system-of-record; b=yninPNuOlM1VEqEzthWJGIsexn7LwXa5GfjYLxfLcvRMTvWiVbz/cOXf1zslwSU3p oSIPSF01fsIeetC935Y+g== Received: from bwz20 (bwz20.prod.google.com [10.188.26.20]) by kpbe11.cbf.corp.google.com with ESMTP id o139ZsjC001853 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 2010 03:35:54 -0600 Received: by bwz20 with SMTP id 20so566300bwz.0 for ; Wed, 03 Feb 2010 01:35:54 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.204.5.213 with SMTP id 21mr1493482bkw.66.1265189752206; Wed, 03 Feb 2010 01:35:52 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <20100203031042.GE1374@vacation.karoshi.com.> References: <6e04e83a1002010944q7abfabc6h892ce4cbb1bddcbf@mail.gmail.com> <6e04e83a1002011109u1cd55c99k8b584648184cdc73@mail.gmail.com> <162E0DB1-EC86-4206-AB36-6FEFA786B24C@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> <6e04e83a1002011402u395f599g74180d28fdbe5707@mail.gmail.com> <6e04e83a1002011640t1b637e30gd7d0150eeb0fae8d@mail.gmail.com> <6e04e83a1002021155kcb908b1v71d362e03e7c4002@mail.gmail.com> <20100203031042.GE1374@vacation.karoshi.com.> Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2010 09:35:52 +0000 Message-ID: <7c31c8cc1002030135w183db140vd1c638bbdc999800@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [dnsext] Re: Privacy vs EDNS Client IP... From: Wilmer van der Gaast To: bmanning@vacation.karoshi.com Cc: Nicholas Weaver , Ted Hardie , John Payne , Roy Arends , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-System-Of-Record: true Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On 3 February 2010 03:10, wrote: > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0hum... this leaps out. =A0being in a situation where your = choice is: > > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0a) leave the computer off and read a book > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0or > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0b) use the DHCP server in the hotel and get forced into us= ing the DNS resolvers > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 they hand you... =A0while never knowing if their reso= lvers have set the "ravish-me" bit. > How is the /24 of the (probably heavily NATted) external IP address of a hotel you're staying at possibly showing up in packets going to authorities a privacy concern? Wilmer. --=20 Wilmer van der Gaast, Dublin Traffic SRE. Google Ireland. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Feb 3 05:45:22 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CBD7B3A691A; Wed, 3 Feb 2010 05:45:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mXoE86nun0FB; Wed, 3 Feb 2010 05:45:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C15573A6912; Wed, 3 Feb 2010 05:45:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NcfQi-000IMd-T1 for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Wed, 03 Feb 2010 13:38:04 +0000 Received: from [2001:4f8:3:bb:230:48ff:fe5a:2f38] (helo=nsa.vix.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:CAMELLIA256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NcfQf-000IM7-OL for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 03 Feb 2010 13:38:01 +0000 Received: from nsa.vix.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nsa.vix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37168A7C41 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 2010 13:38:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vixie@nsa.vix.com) From: Paul Vixie To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] Re: Privacy vs EDNS Client IP... In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 03 Feb 2010 09:35:52 GMT." <7c31c8cc1002030135w183db140vd1c638bbdc999800@mail.gmail.com> References: <6e04e83a1002010944q7abfabc6h892ce4cbb1bddcbf@mail.gmail.com> <6e04e83a1002011109u1cd55c99k8b584648184cdc73@mail.gmail.com> <162E0DB1-EC86-4206-AB36-6FEFA786B24C@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> <6e04e83a1002011402u395f599g74180d28fdbe5707@mail.gmail.com> <6e04e83a1002011640t1b637e30gd7d0150eeb0fae8d@mail.gmail.com> <6e04e83a1002021155kcb908b1v71d362e03e7c4002@mail.gmail.com> <20100203031042.GE1374@vacation.karoshi.com.> <7c31c8cc1002030135w183db140vd1c638bbdc999800@mail.gmail.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.1; nil; GNU Emacs 22.2.1 Date: Wed, 03 Feb 2010 13:38:01 +0000 Message-ID: <13956.1265204281@nsa.vix.com> Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: > Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2010 09:35:52 +0000 > From: Wilmer van der Gaast > > How is the /24 of the (probably heavily NATted) external IP address of a > hotel you're staying at possibly showing up in packets going to > authorities a privacy concern? "your honour, someone in that hotel bought the hashish (exhibit A) over the internet the night that the defendant was a guest there. we have records showing that there were only two other guests, and sworn affadavits from each of those guests that they do not own or use laptop computers. the hotel's own computers are not behind the same NAT as the guests. so even though the hashish dealer's web site records show only ToR connections that night, we have a record of a DNS transaction for that hashish dealer's address record from that hashish dealer's outsourced DNS provider." you may think it's silly that most examples of "how could this violate my privacy" are of illegal activities which the internet ought probably not support in any case. substitute the jailing of a dissident if you wish. i think it's silly that we're circling the wagons on privacy when there are other better reasons to label this proposal a Really Bad Idea. are we even? From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Feb 3 06:41:58 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 239483A68A7; Wed, 3 Feb 2010 06:41:58 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.925 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.925 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-3.052, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id idM+I8bbJk3i; Wed, 3 Feb 2010 06:41:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BB8E3A6A0E; Wed, 3 Feb 2010 06:41:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NcgLs-00046Q-KM for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Wed, 03 Feb 2010 14:37:08 +0000 Received: from [209.85.216.204] (helo=mail-px0-f204.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NcgLq-00045Z-5B for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 03 Feb 2010 14:37:06 +0000 Received: by pxi42 with SMTP id 42so2419089pxi.5 for ; Wed, 03 Feb 2010 06:37:04 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.114.54.3 with SMTP id c3mr5100251waa.2.1265207824607; Wed, 03 Feb 2010 06:37:04 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <13956.1265204281@nsa.vix.com> References: <6e04e83a1002010944q7abfabc6h892ce4cbb1bddcbf@mail.gmail.com> <6e04e83a1002011402u395f599g74180d28fdbe5707@mail.gmail.com> <6e04e83a1002011640t1b637e30gd7d0150eeb0fae8d@mail.gmail.com> <6e04e83a1002021155kcb908b1v71d362e03e7c4002@mail.gmail.com> <20100203031042.GE1374@vacation.karoshi.com.> <7c31c8cc1002030135w183db140vd1c638bbdc999800@mail.gmail.com> <13956.1265204281@nsa.vix.com> Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2010 06:37:04 -0800 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [dnsext] Re: Privacy vs EDNS Client IP... From: Matthew Dempsky To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On Wed, Feb 3, 2010 at 5:38 AM, Paul Vixie wrote: > "your honour, someone in that hotel bought the hashish (exhibit A) over t= he > internet the night that the defendant was a guest there. =A0we have recor= ds > showing that there were only two other guests, and sworn affadavits from > each of those guests that they do not own or use laptop computers. =A0the > hotel's own computers are not behind the same NAT as the guests. =A0so ev= en > though the hashish dealer's web site records show only ToR connections th= at > night, we have a record of a DNS transaction for that hashish dealer's > address record from that hashish dealer's outsourced DNS provider." This is a ridiculous example. If you're using TOR for HTTP, then you're also using it for DNS. Only the stub resolver would have the possibility to add the user's IP address to the DNS query then, and TOR would obviously make sure to filter that out if it was added. > you may think it's silly that most examples of "how could this violate my > privacy" are of illegal activities which the internet ought probably not > support in any case. =A0substitute the jailing of a dissident if you wish= . I wish you guys would have a consistent stance on privacy. Apparently letting sniffing attackers see your DNS traffic is of no concern, but letting the authoritative server see it is terrifying. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Feb 3 06:58:42 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 406D33A6821; Wed, 3 Feb 2010 06:58:42 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.738 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.738 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.690, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bgexFX83OhHv; Wed, 3 Feb 2010 06:58:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 474043A6A15; Wed, 3 Feb 2010 06:58:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NcgbP-0008I9-P2 for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Wed, 03 Feb 2010 14:53:11 +0000 Received: from [192.150.186.11] (helo=fruitcake.ICSI.Berkeley.EDU) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NcgbL-0008HG-4W for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 03 Feb 2010 14:53:07 +0000 Received: from [IPv6:::1] (jack.ICSI.Berkeley.EDU [192.150.186.73]) by fruitcake.ICSI.Berkeley.EDU (8.12.11.20060614/8.12.11) with ESMTP id o13Eqq9e028799; Wed, 3 Feb 2010 06:52:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: [dnsext] Re: Privacy vs EDNS Client IP... Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Nicholas Weaver In-Reply-To: <13956.1265204281@nsa.vix.com> Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2010 06:52:52 -0800 Cc: Nicholas Weaver , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <6e04e83a1002010944q7abfabc6h892ce4cbb1bddcbf@mail.gmail.com> <6e04e83a1002011109u1cd55c99k8b584648184cdc73@mail.gmail.com> <162E0DB1-EC86-4206-AB36-6FEFA786B24C@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> <6e04e83a1002011402u395f599g74180d28fdbe5707@mail.gmail.com> <6e04e83a1002011640t1b637e30gd7d0150eeb0fae8d@mail.gmail.com> <6e04e83a1002021155kcb908b1v71d362e03e7c4002@mail.gmail.com> <20100203031042.GE1374@vacation.karoshi.com.> <7c31c8cc1002030135w183db140vd1c638bbdc999800@mail.gmail.com> <13956.1265204281@nsa.vix.com> To: Paul Vixie X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On Feb 3, 2010, at 5:38 AM, Paul Vixie wrote: >> Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2010 09:35:52 +0000 >> From: Wilmer van der Gaast >>=20 >> How is the /24 of the (probably heavily NATted) external IP address = of a >> hotel you're staying at possibly showing up in packets going to >> authorities a privacy concern? >=20 > "your honour, someone in that hotel bought the hashish (exhibit A) = over the > internet the night that the defendant was a guest there. we have = records > showing that there were only two other guests, and sworn affadavits = from > each of those guests that they do not own or use laptop computers. = the > hotel's own computers are not behind the same NAT as the guests. so = even > though the hashish dealer's web site records show only ToR connections = that > night, we have a record of a DNS transaction for that hashish dealer's > address record from that hashish dealer's outsourced DNS provider." This example is not only hypothetical, but rather ridiculous. (I know I = said I wouldn't respond on the privacy side, but when an example is THIS = convoluted): Anyone who's using TOR for the communications is going to use TOR for = the DNS. The nice default Tor-button does this already, IIRC, because = it has to and because Tor was written by experts. And its not our job = to protect an idiot who didn't by disabling a necessary feature of TOR. And because the resolver's log has complete information anyway, so its "The remote authority's log says its resolver Y which identifies the = hotel exactly. The hotel's log says it was X, the defendent's mac = address" The /24 tagging along in the query is meaningless: the logs have already = recorded exact IP, MAC address, etc. And because the /24 tagging wouldn't be done: the resolver is likely to = already be identifying the exact network used just by dint of its own = IP. And because the hotel is NAT'ed, the defense attorney goes: "There are = 15 hotels, 2 businesses, and 47 coffee shops in that /24". /24 really = is not precise for forensics in the days of IPv4 exhaustion. And if the = defense attorney is not able to completely destroy this with an expert, = should be disbarred for malpractice. And because if this option is ever deployed, we'd add a test in Netalyzr = so you could find out anyway: there are far FAR more nasty pillagings = on most hotel networks that you SHOULD know about first. And because if you want to worry about the courts, worry about = Analytics, where the DA does a subpoena to Google to reconstruct your = movements by seeing where your analytics cookies came from, allowing = them to reconstruct exactly where your computer was on the network over = a year's time, and about half the sites you visited that you purged out = of your browser's history. =20 I keep bringing this up because it matters: scale counts, and this = information IS exported to google, and Google happily claims that the = analytics cookies are NOT PII!?!? From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Feb 3 07:11:43 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 114613A6C44; Wed, 3 Feb 2010 07:11:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.714 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.714 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.666, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YrS0ebxIuPL5; Wed, 3 Feb 2010 07:11:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D94328C11D; Wed, 3 Feb 2010 07:11:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ncgpl-000Asc-92 for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Wed, 03 Feb 2010 15:08:01 +0000 Received: from [192.150.186.11] (helo=fruitcake.ICSI.Berkeley.EDU) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ncgpi-000As6-46 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 03 Feb 2010 15:07:58 +0000 Received: from [IPv6:::1] (jack.ICSI.Berkeley.EDU [192.150.186.73]) by fruitcake.ICSI.Berkeley.EDU (8.12.11.20060614/8.12.11) with ESMTP id o13F7tZk001026; Wed, 3 Feb 2010 07:07:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: [dnsext] Re: Privacy vs EDNS Client IP... Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Nicholas Weaver In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2010 07:07:55 -0800 Cc: Nicholas Weaver , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <9A190BC7-D52E-4BF4-825A-F15AB4F7596F@icsi.berkeley.edu> References: <6e04e83a1002010944q7abfabc6h892ce4cbb1bddcbf@mail.gmail.com> <6e04e83a1002011402u395f599g74180d28fdbe5707@mail.gmail.com> <6e04e83a1002011640t1b637e30gd7d0150eeb0fae8d@mail.gmail.com> <6e04e83a1002021155kcb908b1v71d362e03e7c4002@mail.gmail.com> <20100203031042.GE1374@vacation.karoshi.com.> <7c31c8cc1002030135w183db140vd1c638bbdc999800@mail.gmail.com> <13956.1265204281@nsa.vix.com> To: Matthew Dempsky X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On Feb 3, 2010, at 6:37 AM, Matthew Dempsky wrote: >> you may think it's silly that most examples of "how could this = violate my >> privacy" are of illegal activities which the internet ought probably = not >> support in any case. substitute the jailing of a dissident if you = wish. >=20 > I wish you guys would have a consistent stance on privacy. Apparently > letting sniffing attackers see your DNS traffic is of no concern, but > letting the authoritative server see it is terrifying. They don't actually care about privacy, at least real privacy. (if you = care about privacy, you flip out about google public DNS) Rather, they don't like the idea of CDN tricks, and things which would = make these tricks continue to work in the face of third party resolvers = are to be opposed, so come up with any opposition possible. Paul Vixie in particular is a zealot on DNS issues. EG, Bind does't do = 0x20, which is proven safe, and still is pretty damn acceptable on = accepting AND PROMOTING glue records. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Feb 3 07:12:26 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1DED028C0EB; Wed, 3 Feb 2010 07:12:24 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.691 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.691 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.643, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id v1FDIOz1S3Ng; Wed, 3 Feb 2010 07:12:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E2323A6A19; Wed, 3 Feb 2010 07:12:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NcgqX-000B0J-HS for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Wed, 03 Feb 2010 15:08:49 +0000 Received: from [192.150.186.11] (helo=fruitcake.ICSI.Berkeley.EDU) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NcgqU-000Azm-7s for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 03 Feb 2010 15:08:46 +0000 Received: from [IPv6:::1] (jack.ICSI.Berkeley.EDU [192.150.186.73]) by fruitcake.ICSI.Berkeley.EDU (8.12.11.20060614/8.12.11) with ESMTP id o13F7tZl001026; Wed, 3 Feb 2010 07:08:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: [dnsext] Re: Privacy vs EDNS Client IP... Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Nicholas Weaver In-Reply-To: <9A190BC7-D52E-4BF4-825A-F15AB4F7596F@icsi.berkeley.edu> Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2010 07:08:45 -0800 Cc: Nicholas Weaver Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: References: <6e04e83a1002010944q7abfabc6h892ce4cbb1bddcbf@mail.gmail.com> <6e04e83a1002011402u395f599g74180d28fdbe5707@mail.gmail.com> <6e04e83a1002011640t1b637e30gd7d0150eeb0fae8d@mail.gmail.com> <6e04e83a1002021155kcb908b1v71d362e03e7c4002@mail.gmail.com> <20100203031042.GE1374@vacation.karoshi.com.> <7c31c8cc1002030135w183db140vd1c638bbdc999800@mail.gmail.com> <13956.1265204281@nsa.vix.com> <9A190BC7-D52E-4BF4-825A-F15AB4F7596F@icsi.berkeley.edu> To: "namedroppers@ops.ietf.org WG" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: Please accept my apologies for my flaming on this issue. Apologies. From dmin@ietf.org Wed Feb 3 07:30:21 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE7643A689B for ; Wed, 3 Feb 2010 07:30:21 -0800 (PST) X-Quarantine-ID: <3xAJVAJOnP2s> X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char C2 hex): From: Approved VIAGRA\302\256 Store ; Wed, 3 Feb 2010 07:30:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from udp106736uds.hawaiiantel.net (udp106736uds.hawaiiantel.net [72.235.152.104]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id DCD753A6C14 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 2010 07:30:13 -0800 (PST) From: Approved VIAGRA® Store Subject: Special Code for 78% for dnsext-archive@ietf.org To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20100203153015.DCD753A6C14@core3.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2010 07:30:13 -0800 (PST)
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From dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Wed Feb 3 08:22:12 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 71BC83A6959 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 2010 08:22:12 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -51.877 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-51.877 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.001, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HELO_DYNAMIC_HCC=4.295, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2=4.395, HELO_EQ_BR=0.955, HELO_EQ_DSL=1.129, HOST_EQ_BR=1.295, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.931, URIBL_SBL=20, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ywo5rhPvCfGL for ; Wed, 3 Feb 2010 08:22:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from 201-25-239-27.bnut3702.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br (201-25-239-27.bnut3702.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br [201.25.239.27]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84E2128C181 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 2010 08:22:09 -0800 (PST) From: Ksenya To: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: Long time we did not communicate, it's me - Lena! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20100203162209.84E2128C181@core3.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2010 08:22:09 -0800 (PST)

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From dnsext-archive@ietf.org Wed Feb 3 08:22:45 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADA5928C15E for ; Wed, 3 Feb 2010 08:22:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -30.509 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-30.509 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, FM_SEX_HELODDDD=10.357, FM_SEX_HOSTDDDD=10.357, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2=4.395, HELO_EQ_BR=0.955, HOST_EQ_BR=1.295, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.931, URIBL_SBL=20, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id U5l+Y54ESjsS for ; Wed, 3 Feb 2010 08:22:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from 201-25-239-27.bnut3702.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br (201-25-239-27.bnut3702.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br [201.25.239.27]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56D8128C14D for ; Wed, 3 Feb 2010 08:22:43 -0800 (PST) From: Svetlana To: dnsext-archive@ietf.org Subject: I came to you, and your number does not answer, Anna. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20100203162244.56D8128C14D@core3.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2010 08:22:43 -0800 (PST)

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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Feb 3 09:12:10 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B90728C181; Wed, 3 Feb 2010 09:12:10 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.546 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.546 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-3.051, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 37RdMP6hXlIz; Wed, 3 Feb 2010 09:12:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47CD128C18A; Wed, 3 Feb 2010 09:12:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ncig9-00034Z-DY for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Wed, 03 Feb 2010 17:06:13 +0000 Received: from [209.85.218.227] (helo=mail-bw0-f227.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ncig1-00032p-TG for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 03 Feb 2010 17:06:06 +0000 Received: by bwz27 with SMTP id 27so1315217bwz.39 for ; Wed, 03 Feb 2010 09:06:04 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:date:message-id:subject :from:to:content-type; bh=wV+OgH6wxPK6Bet/FJzLj7fu5TP7niMXDxizc+E7PHk=; b=As8cpgKJbnzrqJF/OgoeuJf4zH0XWfidjoR2kO06GqXBTCF0ntHTGu63m7bC8ZqTw6 9bGAEyk4LglWSIzavUtsKGoHJwkmc8skoP88cBKZqalLGUgstxiLeQOZNGYqbDNVW8YR AMPmK8X+wsvD+J75bckJExWJAj1jz20rHQpT0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; b=hMZ2NkUh7dyc7uVD0Uz3x+EwrLMAVzBq5+UDvwJYbnE5t0j3b/6LBY7U0gJkJ9UC2k RlEfB5ybpTjQ3LTrNiXDCA3Ih9/W71AhdvE/5Y1NWFg3zBzCUecLG9QsQfxK4saTSNS+ ZuApE5uHJpNH54sD33h0EOC6BEbCN/PtucvsI= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.204.7.146 with SMTP id d18mr5434315bkd.101.1265216764570; Wed, 03 Feb 2010 09:06:04 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2010 13:06:02 -0400 Message-ID: <3e1abd2c1002030906pec73aj9844392880568457@mail.gmail.com> Subject: [dnsext] Possible alternatives to draft-vandergaast-edns-client-ip-00.txt ? From: Brian Dickson To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: If we're uncomfortable with sending client IP addresses to authority servers, how can similar results be achieved? This is similar to a problem in routing system design, which has been looked at by the IRTF folks. It boils down to three choices - push, pull, or publish/query. All three have issues of scaling, timeliness, and reliability/resiliency/shared-fate. Sending client IP (however you try to anonymize it) is a "push". Having the authority server(s)/CDN(s) somehow inform all the resolvers in the world of their individual geo-ip (etc) boundaries (I don't even know how that would even be possible) would be "pull", or "reverse push". The third alternative would be "publish/query". It could conceivable be done in a manner that would achieve some manner of scalability, some transparency regarding privacy issues, and presumably good interoperability with adequate backward compatibility. The exact mechanisms for signaling/negotiating usage of the mechanism would likely be similar to draft-vandergaast-edns-client-ip-00.txt, i.e. using EDNS[01] as an in-band, in-packet channel. (The alternative would require additional look-ups.) The "publish" part would be that the geo-ip information used by such CDN networks, would be published in a DNS zone somewhere, probably in a format similar to in-addr.arpa and ip6.arpa, but under its own domain or sub-domain. There would be one "tree" of geo-ip information per geo-ip provider, whether that be internal to a CDN, or by a geo-ip provider, or whoever else wants to do it themselves. The RR's in those trees would be "nonce" values, each representing an equivalence class of whatever geographic location+granularity the geo-ip provider identifies as being "the same". A set of IP addresses the geo-ip provider thinks are "close" would share a nonce. The resolver would need to know which geo-ip tree to query, probably signaled by either an EDNS[01] value (DNS label of the root of the tree), or some kind of RR. The resolver would then look up (either in its cache, or directly) the client's IP, to determine the nonce. The resolver would then attach the nonce in an EDNS[01] option to the query, and the authority server would return an appropriate result. The use of the nonce effectively anonymizes the query/answer. The use of the same tree for many authoritative zones effectively further anonymizes the geo-ip lookups, since the likelihood of the nonce being found in-cache increases monotonically over time. Paranoid clients can do lookups to well-known "safe" zones, or even the geo-ip providers' nonce trees directly, to prime the cache, before doing "real" lookups, e.g. of their 's web site. Comments on this idea? Anyone think it is worth pursuing? Brian From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Feb 3 09:12:47 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A51D28C194; Wed, 3 Feb 2010 09:12:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_23=0.6, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, NO_RELAYS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Zcr3b1aGsvVk; Wed, 3 Feb 2010 09:12:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35E3528C19A; Wed, 3 Feb 2010 09:12:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ncii8-0003LB-Qz for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Wed, 03 Feb 2010 17:08:16 +0000 Received: from [2001:1488:800:400::400] (helo=mail.nic.cz) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ncii5-0003KY-Am for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 03 Feb 2010 17:08:13 +0000 Received: from [IPv6:2001:1488:ac14:1400:224:e8ff:fea9:f617] (unknown [IPv6:2001:1488:ac14:1400:224:e8ff:fea9:f617]) by mail.nic.cz (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 9135E734482 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 2010 18:08:07 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <4B69AD76.3070201@nic.cz> Date: Wed, 03 Feb 2010 18:08:06 +0100 From: =?UTF-8?B?T25kxZllaiBTdXLDvQ==?= User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.9.1.7) Gecko/20100111 Lightning/1.0b1 Thunderbird/3.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] Re: I-D ACTION:draft-vandergaast-edns-client-ip-00.txt References: <7c31c8cc1001271556w4918093er6e94e07cb92c4dc4@mail.gmail.com> <74DFF61A-A8BB-4B46-A873-F2407C34C412@sackheads.org> <139D0D6A-5A31-4EE8-88B9-3CACE933187B@icsi.berkeley.edu> <6e04e83a1002010944q7abfabc6h892ce4cbb1bddcbf@mail.gmail.com> <973B1F15-E822-491E-89BF-F09FC7E67509@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> In-Reply-To: <973B1F15-E822-491E-89BF-F09FC7E67509@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On 1.2.2010 19:45, Nicholas Weaver wrote: > So its clear that DNS-based network localization is being used for services beyond HTTP already. Do we want such localizations to still work well when the user is using a 3rd party DNS resolver? Then it would make a sense to also send requested protocol in DNS query together with client IP address, wouldn't it? (Not every protocol has it's own RRTYPE.) Ondrej -- Ondřej Surý vedoucí výzkumu/R&D manager ------------------------------------------- CZ.NIC, z.s.p.o. -- Laboratoře CZ.NIC Americka 23, 120 00 Praha 2, Czech Republic mailto:ondrej.sury@nic.cz http://nic.cz/ tel:+420.222745110 fax:+420.222745112 ------------------------------------------- From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Feb 3 09:46:23 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 884C73A6C92; Wed, 3 Feb 2010 09:46:23 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.102 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.102 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-2.529, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RDNS_NONE=0.1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6L0Bywx5FYNn; Wed, 3 Feb 2010 09:46:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C2863A6C80; Wed, 3 Feb 2010 09:46:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NcjEQ-0008sB-6L for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Wed, 03 Feb 2010 17:41:38 +0000 Received: from [216.239.44.51] (helo=smtp-out.google.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NcjEN-0008rj-9L for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 03 Feb 2010 17:41:35 +0000 Received: from wpaz17.hot.corp.google.com (wpaz17.hot.corp.google.com [172.24.198.81]) by smtp-out.google.com with ESMTP id o13HfYQc003435 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 2010 09:41:34 -0800 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=beta; t=1265218894; bh=Ohr4cxmBhjViXUEZ0PSEL+Zxb6o=; h=MIME-Version:In-Reply-To:References:Date:Message-ID:Subject:From: To:Cc:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=Iq1X9YFu927GZlNrEkmkxSh4KsqRdgyNpMC33zINWeQPQYRk90oYREORVEgt5jiqc PgpA6sJh5jdeJSfc0nL3Q== DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=beta; d=google.com; c=nofws; q=dns; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to: cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:x-system-of-record; b=aOELSAJKB8CKg14yQaFRZXw7WBKzp+fVS35R5cVSvhycbR4zP7Jx3f4Kmh+Rxr7Ov Z7XPFucnAha1MTnqlTi3Q== Received: from bwz23 (bwz23.prod.google.com [10.188.26.23]) by wpaz17.hot.corp.google.com with ESMTP id o13HfWOe007952 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 2010 09:41:33 -0800 Received: by bwz23 with SMTP id 23so129261bwz.1 for ; Wed, 03 Feb 2010 09:41:32 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.204.5.75 with SMTP id 11mr2034293bku.20.1265218892373; Wed, 03 Feb 2010 09:41:32 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <4B69AD76.3070201@nic.cz> References: <7c31c8cc1001271556w4918093er6e94e07cb92c4dc4@mail.gmail.com> <74DFF61A-A8BB-4B46-A873-F2407C34C412@sackheads.org> <139D0D6A-5A31-4EE8-88B9-3CACE933187B@icsi.berkeley.edu> <6e04e83a1002010944q7abfabc6h892ce4cbb1bddcbf@mail.gmail.com> <973B1F15-E822-491E-89BF-F09FC7E67509@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> <4B69AD76.3070201@nic.cz> Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2010 17:41:31 +0000 Message-ID: <7c31c8cc1002030941y52017a38jaf10dcf4504d9072@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [dnsext] Re: I-D ACTION:draft-vandergaast-edns-client-ip-00.txt From: Wilmer van der Gaast To: =?UTF-8?B?T25kxZllaiBTdXLDvQ==?= Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-System-Of-Record: true Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On 3 February 2010 17:08, Ond=C5=99ej Sur=C3=BD wrote: > > Then it would make a sense to also send requested protocol in DNS query > together with client IP address, wouldn't it? =C2=A0(Not every protocol h= as it's > own RRTYPE.) > No, that's why we have RFC 2782. Sadly that RFC is an excellent example of how solving problems in a way that requires work on the client side takes a long time (where long time approaches infinity). :-/ But yes, if you want to do that, send a SRV query. For at least XMPP and ActiveDirectory it may work. :-) I'm all for wider adoption, but that's well outside the scope of this draft. Wilmer. --=20 Wilmer van der Gaast, Dublin Traffic SRE. Google Ireland. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Feb 3 11:03:13 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7928A28C2CC; Wed, 3 Feb 2010 11:03:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.495 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.495 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2BO4y9qPfdbn; Wed, 3 Feb 2010 11:03:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1791F3A68AA; Wed, 3 Feb 2010 11:01:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NckOq-000LnL-Iw for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Wed, 03 Feb 2010 18:56:28 +0000 Received: from [209.85.217.224] (helo=mail-gx0-f224.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NckOo-000Lmv-5K for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 03 Feb 2010 18:56:26 +0000 Received: by gxk24 with SMTP id 24so2124931gxk.1 for ; Wed, 03 Feb 2010 10:56:25 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from :user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=/awxILq0HqBia0ifMIkrZUBeb/QYoOE/gg8AQqrs6Ng=; b=PFIvRTnHmJkPo4feI138UrQjk999/yB5jZ88oKjLWVDdPospHTga5YHZem7wXg0cCX UD2CR7ixAsYsyeuypnrY8gXwPYszh2GMBSDnKcQVSPlOkFlfU2x1kUlzLIJuX2HnNK0I yngV4y04iH7U/JTJhaH/69nuFbLwIV81ZjvjA= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=qFva6ku6lN23FVhoSHuVnuYXXdSCVzl2EWUKHkX95PgUWA1DYml6tQzJQkKPYO2g5G 4i4tN5o1XaOCNvf9ZJ6H2CJeiHvqWFVzsghoV4ANBkWVUISLgGYAsTDrP5dcfft5n7Fp nc8BrtC7mWokxpuXg+4XKGPR/z1zxGJrjSis8= Received: by 10.150.213.16 with SMTP id l16mr425872ybg.151.1265223385327; Wed, 03 Feb 2010 10:56:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from Wastrel.local (c-68-40-195-221.hsd1.mi.comcast.net [68.40.195.221]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 23sm33856iwn.7.2010.02.03.10.56.23 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Wed, 03 Feb 2010 10:56:24 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4B69C6D6.50505@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 03 Feb 2010 13:56:22 -0500 From: William Allen Simpson User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Macintosh/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] Re: Privacy vs EDNS Client IP... References: <6e04e83a1002010944q7abfabc6h892ce4cbb1bddcbf@mail.gmail.com> <6e04e83a1002011402u395f599g74180d28fdbe5707@mail.gmail.com> <6e04e83a1002011640t1b637e30gd7d0150eeb0fae8d@mail.gmail.com> <6e04e83a1002021155kcb908b1v71d362e03e7c4002@mail.gmail.com> <20100203031042.GE1374@vacation.karoshi.com.> <7c31c8cc1002030135w183db140vd1c638bbdc999800@mail.gmail.com> <13956.1265204281@nsa.vix.com> <9A190BC7-D52E-4BF4-825A-F15AB4F7596F@icsi.berkeley.edu> In-Reply-To: <9A190BC7-D52E-4BF4-825A-F15AB4F7596F@icsi.berkeley.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: I almost overlooked this thread, because it was started as a reply deep inside another thread. Stop doing that! Nicholas Weaver wrote: > On Feb 3, 2010, at 6:37 AM, Matthew Dempsky wrote: >>> you may think it's silly that most examples of "how could this violate my >>> privacy" are of illegal activities which the internet ought probably not >>> support in any case. substitute the jailing of a dissident if you wish. >> I wish you guys would have a consistent stance on privacy. Apparently >> letting sniffing attackers see your DNS traffic is of no concern, but >> letting the authoritative server see it is terrifying. > > They don't actually care about privacy, at least real privacy. (if you care about privacy, you flip out about google public DNS) > > Rather, they don't like the idea of CDN tricks, and things which would make these tricks continue to work in the face of third party resolvers are to be opposed, so come up with any opposition possible. > > Paul Vixie in particular is a zealot on DNS issues. EG, Bind does't do 0x20, which is proven safe, and still is pretty damn acceptable on accepting AND PROMOTING glue records. > You've impugned the integrity of one of the foremost DNS developers and thinkers. But I've been involved in both DNS and privacy for as long or longer, and have a pretty consistent stance on privacy.... Paul's correct. You're wrong. First of all, you're misusing the term "privacy", and that alone shows that your thinking (or lack thereof) is not to be trusted on this issue. 1) Anonymity -- nobody can identify any party, including another party. 2) Privacy -- only the parties involved can identify each other. Evesdropping is a violation of privacy, and that is a concern. However, it's not solvable by the DNS protocol. So, it's out of scope here. Thirdly, any protocol element that is not "opt-in" and reveals an identity to an uninvolved party is a violation of privacy. Privacy requires a choice of the party to the transaction, in both legal and security sense. There is no difficulty with CDN that uses Internet routing to distribute traffic. There have been an awful lot of "stupid DNS tricks" -- they are bad ideas. Just because somebody has an idea on how to make money doesn't mean it's a good idea. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Feb 3 12:21:48 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE22F3A6978; Wed, 3 Feb 2010 12:21:48 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.808 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.808 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-2.313, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id N8Det1k9gTvz; Wed, 3 Feb 2010 12:21:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B6043A6A3C; Wed, 3 Feb 2010 12:21:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NcleS-0009uo-ET for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Wed, 03 Feb 2010 20:16:40 +0000 Received: from [209.85.216.204] (helo=mail-px0-f204.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NcleP-0009uU-Pv for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 03 Feb 2010 20:16:38 +0000 Received: by pxi42 with SMTP id 42so2805325pxi.5 for ; Wed, 03 Feb 2010 12:16:37 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=iOXYrDLpv31Z9MbOUSlbEMVbj5SChAyfPd+C4wlyIpc=; b=Ekw13h/hx3fxuP1eWGGmQ5hBzmkiBq3yE1ofpYCzItiZ2Mz+p2zMC6Jl7d0lATwsnT Ykd63Ned+2hcN20YCYO81bxlzflbpCKSDGsxKZthUyCX9ZKE9f1nLGoRPcfEn/QQBQKi 33ZIiqNQWxksyFoSe/xmFWGZc/L6UbPULxTRU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; b=CCqc12jLOtg5MOB0qXPM9NIdEqZPp3fLUgZEa3ksSC4uxCln9MJtUQXnAb4HupiRkQ mfwxgnPQBY8WBnE5zhtvgxGox8gIMRV5YboHH9IJEV+jXgxdFdof3ZTCrH8zYiWBGjZM Wxlg330uwQ8pV5KNkHOMXsXhHbxdFbzlOn6ik= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.142.118.20 with SMTP id q20mr43095wfc.135.1265228197517; Wed, 03 Feb 2010 12:16:37 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <3e1abd2c1002030906pec73aj9844392880568457@mail.gmail.com> References: <3e1abd2c1002030906pec73aj9844392880568457@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2010 12:16:37 -0800 Message-ID: <6e04e83a1002031216i669a6631u2b132b67a0ed6dbb@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [dnsext] Possible alternatives to draft-vandergaast-edns-client-ip-00.txt ? From: Ted Hardie To: Brian Dickson Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: Hi Brian, Some comments in-line. On Wed, Feb 3, 2010 at 9:06 AM, Brian Dickson wrote: > If we're uncomfortable with sending client IP addresses to authority > servers, how can similar results be achieved? > > This is similar to a problem in routing system design, which has been > looked at by the IRTF folks. > > It boils down to three choices - push, pull, or publish/query. > > All three have issues of scaling, timeliness, and > reliability/resiliency/shared-fate. > > Sending client IP (however you try to anonymize it) is a "push". > > Having the authority server(s)/CDN(s) somehow inform all the resolvers > in the world of their individual geo-ip (etc) boundaries (I don't even > know how that would even be possible) would be "pull", or "reverse > push". > I can imagine a different mix here that has the geo-ip boundaries published only to the interested resolvers. A resolver is "interested" whenever it has a query for which localization is available; the problem is that it induces latency. Imagine a resolver sending a query for an RR to the relevant authoritative server; it gets an answer and additional data that localization data is available. An interested resolver can then request the localization data and serve the localized answer instead of the original answer. This unfortunately generates at least one additional round-trip plus the processing time. If resolvers chose not to get localized data when the requester was local (presuming that the original answer had been localized to the resolvers IP), then this also leaks the information that the resolver thought the requester was local. This may fall into your publish/query model, but it seems slightly different. > The third alternative would be "publish/query". > > It could conceivable be done in a manner that would achieve some > manner of scalability, some transparency regarding privacy issues, and > presumably good interoperability with adequate backward compatibility. > > The exact mechanisms for signaling/negotiating usage of the mechanism > would likely be similar to draft-vandergaast-edns-client-ip-00.txt, > i.e. using EDNS[01] as an in-band, in-packet channel. (The alternative > would require additional look-ups.) > > The "publish" part would be that the geo-ip information used by such > CDN networks, would be published in a DNS zone somewhere, probably in > a format similar to in-addr.arpa and ip6.arpa, but under its own > domain or sub-domain. > > There would be one "tree" of geo-ip information per geo-ip provider, > whether that be internal to a CDN, or by a geo-ip provider, or whoever > else wants to do it themselves. > > The RR's in those trees would be "nonce" values, each representing an > equivalence class of whatever geographic location+granularity the > geo-ip provider identifies as being "the same". A set of IP addresses > the geo-ip provider thinks are "close" would share a nonce. > > The resolver would need to know which geo-ip tree to query, probably > signaled by either an EDNS[01] value (DNS label of the root of the > tree), or some kind of RR. > > The resolver would then look up (either in its cache, or directly) the > client's IP, to determine the nonce. > > The resolver would then attach the nonce in an EDNS[01] option to the > query, and the authority server would return an appropriate result. > > The use of the nonce effectively anonymizes the query/answer. > Doesn't this depend on the size of the set of IP addresses the geo-ip provider thinks is close? What if the set sharing a nonce is still a /24? > The use of the same tree for many authoritative zones effectively > further anonymizes the geo-ip lookups, since the likelihood of the > nonce being found in-cache increases monotonically over time. > > Paranoid clients can do lookups to well-known "safe" zones, or even > the geo-ip providers' nonce trees directly, to prime the cache, before > doing "real" lookups, e.g. of their provider>'s web site. > > Comments on this idea? > > Anyone think it is worth pursuing? > > Brian > > I think it is very useful to think about the problem space more generally, rather than starting out with a solutions draft. regards, Ted Hardie From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Feb 3 13:07:22 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F91228C0D8; Wed, 3 Feb 2010 13:07:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.437 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.437 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_NET=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8axuAtZLo-iL; Wed, 3 Feb 2010 13:07:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C30A3A6B4F; Wed, 3 Feb 2010 13:07:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NcmOT-000HCX-7O for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Wed, 03 Feb 2010 21:04:13 +0000 Received: from [80.69.68.21] (helo=freaky.dnssec.net) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NcmOR-000HBw-1X for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 03 Feb 2010 21:04:11 +0000 Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2010 22:04:08 +0100 From: Jacco Tunnissen To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] Re: Privacy vs EDNS Client IP... Message-ID: <20100203210408.GM22268@imperium.dnssec.net> References: <6e04e83a1002011640t1b637e30gd7d0150eeb0fae8d@mail.gmail.com> <6e04e83a1002021155kcb908b1v71d362e03e7c4002@mail.gmail.com> <20100203031042.GE1374@vacation.karoshi.com.> <7c31c8cc1002030135w183db140vd1c638bbdc999800@mail.gmail.com> <13956.1265204281@nsa.vix.com> <9A190BC7-D52E-4BF4-825A-F15AB4F7596F@icsi.berkeley.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <9A190BC7-D52E-4BF4-825A-F15AB4F7596F@icsi.berkeley.edu> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2i Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On Wed, Feb 03, 2010 at 07:07:55AM -0800, Nicholas Weaver wrote: >Paul Vixie in particular is a zealot on DNS issues. EG, Bind does't do >0x20, which is proven safe, and still is pretty damn acceptable on >accepting AND PROMOTING glue records. Would you mind... Please do not take your attacks to the personal level, it doesn't help this long winded discussion at all, really. Perhaps you meant ISC as an organization? Jacco From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Feb 3 13:13:19 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 830823A6B41; Wed, 3 Feb 2010 13:13:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.499 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.499 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1, RELAY_IS_203=0.994] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XfuBDPO13mPg; Wed, 3 Feb 2010 13:13:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 527713A6A2C; Wed, 3 Feb 2010 13:13:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NcmUl-000IG3-2b for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Wed, 03 Feb 2010 21:10:43 +0000 Received: from [203.8.7.220] (helo=mail.syd.netstarnetworks.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NcmUi-000IFT-IY for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 03 Feb 2010 21:10:40 +0000 Received: from sdcmail.netstarnetworks.com ([10.18.193.12]) by mail.syd.netstarnetworks.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o13LATR5003361; Thu, 4 Feb 2010 08:10:30 +1100 Received: from melmail.netstarnetworks.com ([10.20.193.13]) by sdcmail.netstarnetworks.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Thu, 4 Feb 2010 08:10:26 +1100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Subject: RE: [dnsext] something for RFC2671-bis MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2010 08:10:24 +1100 Message-ID: <6983BF97BFC24D4EA551F140712329180148A7E9@melmail.netstarnetworks.com> In-Reply-To: <37ECA1B1-F29D-4582-87E0-1D9AE32E0E3C@rfc1035.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [dnsext] something for RFC2671-bis Thread-Index: AcqkO3YreXfJfF+WQ7qfwbKPBNwuEAAGrVjg References: <7c31c8cc1001271556w4918093er6e94e07cb92c4dc4@mail.gmail.com> <6e04e83a1002010944q7abfabc6h892ce4cbb1bddcbf@mail.gmail.com> <973B1F15-E822-491E-89BF-F09FC7E67509@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> <6e04e83a1002011109u1cd55c99k8b584648184cdc73@mail.gmail.com> <162E0DB1-EC86-4206-AB36-6FEFA786B24C@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> <6e04e83a1002011402u395f599g74180d28fdbe5707@mail.gmail.com> <939BB577-FDBE-4573-9129-8CA29B0FB493@sackheads.org> <7B06A582-38E3-4387-BA16-932825A4A62B@rfc1035.com> <7c31c8cc1002021029m74d488ep9c2dc888dd1f93d0@mail.gmail.com> <37ECA1B1-F29D-4582-87E0-1D9AE32E0E3C@rfc1035.com> From: "Greg Daley" To: "Jim Reid" , "Wilmer van der Gaast" Cc: "Nicholas Weaver" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Feb 2010 21:10:26.0361 (UTC) FILETIME=[4E836290:01CAA515] Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: Hi Jim, (From your response) "... Until then, it would be prudent for anyone proposing new EDNS options to specify how implementatons that don't support the option should behave. Your mileage may vary."=20 Isn't that a circular argument? If I do not implement EDN0 Option X, I need to implement the correct behaviour for not supporting the option? I think the focus should be on specifying how systems using options should behave if they encounter a system which cannot support the option. Greg Daley > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org=20 > [mailto:owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jim Reid > Sent: Wednesday, 3 February 2010 5:44 AM > To: Wilmer van der Gaast > Cc: Nicholas Weaver; namedroppers@ops.ietf.org > Subject: [dnsext] something for RFC2671-bis >=20 > On 2 Feb 2010, at 18:29, Wilmer van der Gaast wrote: >=20 > > Sadly the EDNS0 spec doesn't really describe what an implementation > > should do if it sees an unsupported option. >=20 > Indeed. Perhaps this can be clarified if 2671bis gets revived. After =20 > all there is a difference between "I don't speak EDNS0" and "I don't =20 > understand this EDNS option". Until then, it would be prudent for =20 > anyone proposing new EDNS options to specify how implementatons that =20 > don't support the option should behave. 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------=_NextPart_000_0007_01CAA518.924F0210-- --===============1644297932==-- From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Feb 3 13:40:36 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0867A3A6B55; Wed, 3 Feb 2010 13:40:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id k3w8FdSARnfQ; Wed, 3 Feb 2010 13:40:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C48EE3A6996; Wed, 3 Feb 2010 13:40:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ncmtl-000MOL-FI for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Wed, 03 Feb 2010 21:36:33 +0000 Received: from [2001:4f8:3:bb:230:48ff:fe5a:2f38] (helo=nsa.vix.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:CAMELLIA256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ncmtj-000MMr-7J for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 03 Feb 2010 21:36:31 +0000 Received: from nsa.vix.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nsa.vix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3A02A8647 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 2010 21:36:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vixie@nsa.vix.com) From: Paul Vixie To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] Re: Privacy vs EDNS Client IP... In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 03 Feb 2010 07:07:55 PST." <9A190BC7-D52E-4BF4-825A-F15AB4F7596F@icsi.berkeley.edu> References: <6e04e83a1002010944q7abfabc6h892ce4cbb1bddcbf@mail.gmail.com> <6e04e83a1002011402u395f599g74180d28fdbe5707@mail.gmail.com> <6e04e83a1002011640t1b637e30gd7d0150eeb0fae8d@mail.gmail.com> <6e04e83a1002021155kcb908b1v71d362e03e7c4002@mail.gmail.com> <20100203031042.GE1374@vacation.karoshi.com.> <7c31c8cc1002030135w183db140vd1c638bbdc999800@mail.gmail.com> <13956.1265204281@nsa.vix.com> <9A190BC7-D52E-4BF4-825A-F15AB4F7596F@icsi.berkeley.edu> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.1; nil; GNU Emacs 22.2.1 Date: Wed, 03 Feb 2010 21:36:30 +0000 Message-ID: <34150.1265232990@nsa.vix.com> Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: > From: Nicholas Weaver > Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2010 07:07:55 -0800 > > They don't actually care about privacy, at least real privacy. (if you > care about privacy, you flip out about google public DNS) that's why i said, privacy is the least of my worries in matters of DNS, and i think it's silly to bring it up in conjunction with this proposal. > Rather, they don't like the idea of CDN tricks, and things which would > make these tricks continue to work in the face of third party resolvers > are to be opposed, so come up with any opposition possible. that's what they told me when i was opposed to sitefinder's *.COM wildcard. my answer then, as now, is "you've got me mixed up with somebody, i'm trying to keep the system working and to keep it expandable in the future, and what you're trying to do would act as a prior restraint on both of those goals." > Paul Vixie in particular is a zealot on DNS issues. EG, Bind does't do > 0x20, which is proven safe, and still is pretty damn acceptable on > accepting AND PROMOTING glue records. i'm not sure how you were justifying the (vixie = isc && isc fears 0x20 && vixie wrote the 0x20 draft) logic here. but vixie != isc, and in any case bind will get 0x20 in due course. as to glue promotion, florian has filed a bug report and that too will get fixed in due course. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Feb 3 14:11:02 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E56F3A6B66; Wed, 3 Feb 2010 14:11:02 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.547 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.547 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-3.052, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 99QCTLRrKvKn; Wed, 3 Feb 2010 14:11:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC6243A6984; Wed, 3 Feb 2010 14:11:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NcnNR-0000kv-U5 for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; 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Tue, 2 Feb 2010 15:51:43 -0500 (EST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=haybaler; d=sackheads.org; c=nofws; q=dns; h=dkim-signature:subject:mime-version:content-type:from: in-reply-to:date:cc:content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to:x-mailer; b=vcXuf8g/Yv3Ir71AuTuXI3++4G5Zbe/qm7h9qZEwJR7OjPJHjLkwQWkwVG4DtZuJT eMjnhAxCOx5JzUIcXD1lZZMXTCHw1Q3EozXv6JXsx7U5miZQvTUZiZpz2SV9ORK+AtZ 3vU5+VMH8UcABaETc4+fkA0YkI5CzLVngb6Fdq0= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=sackheads.org; s=haybaler; t=1265143903; bh=RZIjCl2QzGlGxN8AiWhReRkOMWCPRXtW3rm9BcvZ4X8=; h=Subject:Mime-Version:Content-Type:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc: Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-Id:References:To; b=x6O9pbGYdbVz4QeSagnFzubQF8w5oaBxiR2ULevpqn9YcBwUPGhaIr+QSSZ5N/Eny Bnp11k14dnF9cGzF9S5RQvu2/n1ekM7JgBadliLNSpN0AlLYwBbEfRGfGyl0TrYmvD 53pjLSSxmWalhf7CgcZGTP89eElV5g6T9vDjiVK8= Subject: Re: [dnsext] draft-vandergaast-edns-client-ip-00.txt Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: John Payne In-Reply-To: <7B06A582-38E3-4387-BA16-932825A4A62B@rfc1035.com> Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2010 15:51:42 -0500 Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <7c31c8cc1001271556w4918093er6e94e07cb92c4dc4@mail.gmail.com> <74DFF61A-A8BB-4B46-A873-F2407C34C412@sackheads.org> <139D0D6A-5A31-4EE8-88B9-3CACE933187B@icsi.berkeley.edu> <6e04e83a1002010944q7abfabc6h892ce4cbb1bddcbf@mail.gmail.com> <973B1F15-E822-491E-89BF-F09FC7E67509@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> <6e04e83a1002011109u1cd55c99k8b584648184cdc73@mail.gmail.com> <162E0DB1-EC86-4206-AB36-6FEFA786B24C@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> <6e04e83a1002011402u395f599g74180d28fdbe5707@mail.gmail.com> <939BB577-FDBE-4573-9129-8CA29B0FB493@sackheads.org> <7B06A582-38E3-4387-BA16-932825A4A62B@rfc1035.com> To: Jim Reid X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.67 on 66.92.146.20 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: [ Moderators note: Post was moderated, either because it was posted by a non-subscriber, or because it was over 20K. With the massive amount of spam, it is easy to miss and therefore delete relevant posts by non-subscribers. Please fix your subscription addresses. ] On Feb 2, 2010, at 11:46 AM, Jim Reid wrote: > On 1 Feb 2010, at 22:07, John Payne wrote: >=20 >> Yes, it adds complexity to the recursive nameservers _that want to = send the information_. >>=20 >> Where else is it adding any complexity? >=20 > [1] Stub resolvers that don't want their address info disclosed. Or = those who may want to send that info (how??) but are talking to = resolving servers who don't. Or the resolving servers tamper with that = data whenever they query the authoritative server(s). Or choose to = mangle whatever is returned as the optimised response. The choice exists to use a recursive nameserver which has the behavior = you desire without modifying the stub resolver at all. > [2] Authoritative servers who can't/won't speak this EDNS0 option. The = draft does not specify how they should behave. If this idea can't be made to work without any change to Authoritative = servers who can't/won't speak this EDNS0 option, then it has no business = progressing beyond this draft. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Feb 3 14:46:46 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B0B93A6873; Wed, 3 Feb 2010 14:46:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.669 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.669 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.621, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rd2iO1RbL9VS; Wed, 3 Feb 2010 14:46:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8ADE3A685D; Wed, 3 Feb 2010 14:46:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NcnvT-0005Za-M4 for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Wed, 03 Feb 2010 22:42:23 +0000 Received: from [192.150.186.11] (helo=fruitcake.ICSI.Berkeley.EDU) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NcnvQ-0005YX-Np for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 03 Feb 2010 22:42:20 +0000 Received: from [IPv6:::1] (jack.ICSI.Berkeley.EDU [192.150.186.73]) by fruitcake.ICSI.Berkeley.EDU (8.12.11.20060614/8.12.11) with ESMTP id o13Mg5pX005594; Wed, 3 Feb 2010 14:42:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: [dnsext] Re: Privacy vs EDNS Client IP... Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Nicholas Weaver In-Reply-To: <34150.1265232990@nsa.vix.com> Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2010 14:42:05 -0800 Cc: Nicholas Weaver , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <5B726AAE-B588-4E1A-A446-861123B45EE1@icsi.berkeley.edu> References: <6e04e83a1002010944q7abfabc6h892ce4cbb1bddcbf@mail.gmail.com> <6e04e83a1002011402u395f599g74180d28fdbe5707@mail.gmail.com> <6e04e83a1002011640t1b637e30gd7d0150eeb0fae8d@mail.gmail.com> <6e04e83a1002021155kcb908b1v71d362e03e7c4002@mail.gmail.com> <20100203031042.GE1374@vacation.karoshi.com.> <7c31c8cc1002030135w183db140vd1c638bbdc999800@mail.gmail.com> <13956.1265204281@nsa.vix.com> <9A190BC7-D52E-4BF4-825A-F15AB4F7596F@icsi.berkeley.edu> <34150.1265232990@nsa.vix.com> To: Paul Vixie X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: Again, apologies for my inappropriate response. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Feb 3 15:24:54 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B12A828B23E; Wed, 3 Feb 2010 15:24:54 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.493 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.493 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-2.998, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id u8VLs-NsOw5S; Wed, 3 Feb 2010 15:24:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C35D03A69AA; Wed, 3 Feb 2010 15:24:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NcoWE-000BFA-JA for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Wed, 03 Feb 2010 23:20:22 +0000 Received: from [195.54.233.65] (helo=hutch.rfc1035.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NcoWA-000BDU-1i for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 03 Feb 2010 23:20:18 +0000 Received: from gromit.rfc1035.com (gromit.rfc1035.com [195.54.233.69]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: jim) by hutch.rfc1035.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id CB128154283B; Wed, 3 Feb 2010 23:20:14 +0000 (GMT) Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Message-Id: From: Jim Reid To: "Greg Daley" In-Reply-To: <6983BF97BFC24D4EA551F140712329180148A7E9@melmail.netstarnetworks.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v936) Subject: Re: [dnsext] something for RFC2671-bis Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2010 23:20:14 +0000 References: <7c31c8cc1001271556w4918093er6e94e07cb92c4dc4@mail.gmail.com> <6e04e83a1002010944q7abfabc6h892ce4cbb1bddcbf@mail.gmail.com> <973B1F15-E822-491E-89BF-F09FC7E67509@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> <6e04e83a1002011109u1cd55c99k8b584648184cdc73@mail.gmail.com> <162E0DB1-EC86-4206-AB36-6FEFA786B24C@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> <6e04e83a1002011402u395f599g74180d28fdbe5707@mail.gmail.com> <939BB577-FDBE-4573-9129-8CA29B0FB493@sackheads.org> <7B06A582-38E3-4387-BA16-932825A4A62B@rfc1035.com> <7c31c8cc1002021029m74d488ep9c2dc888dd1f93d0@mail.gmail.com> <37ECA1B1-F29D-4582-87E0-1D9AE32E0E3C@rfc1035.com> <6983BF97BFC24D4EA551F140712329180148A7E9@melmail.netstarnetworks.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.936) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On 3 Feb 2010, at 21:10, Greg Daley wrote: > Isn't that a circular argument? > > If I do not implement EDN0 Option X, I need to implement the > correct behaviour for not supporting the option? That's one interpretation. However it's not a good one as it obviously makes no sense. It trust the following makes things clearer. Until such times as an RFC provides a formal mechanism for a server to indicate they do not support a specific EDNS option, those proposing a new option should ensure there's a mechanism for the EDNS response to show that the option is supported. This could be something as simple as an option- specific flag bit or response code in the reply. So if it's missing or not set, the client should proceed on the basis that the server it queried did not understand/support that option. > I think the focus should be on specifying how systems using > options should behave if they encounter a system which cannot > support the option. Well that's certainly part of it. But how will the clients who want to use a funky new option find out they've encountered something which can't or won't support that option? From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Feb 3 15:43:35 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DAFBD3A6878; Wed, 3 Feb 2010 15:43:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.165 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.165 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-4.970, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_EQ_BLUEYON=1.4, HELO_MISMATCH_UK=1.749, MIME_BASE64_BLANKS=0.041, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, RDNS_NONE=0.1, SARE_LWSHORTT=1.24] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id K1g7R+6b4Kc8; Wed, 3 Feb 2010 15:43:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0BC913A6811; Wed, 3 Feb 2010 15:43:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ncoor-000DKN-UW for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Wed, 03 Feb 2010 23:39:37 +0000 Received: from [195.188.213.7] (helo=smtp-out4.blueyonder.co.uk) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ncooo-000DJg-Ti for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 03 Feb 2010 23:39:35 +0000 Received: from [172.23.170.136] (helo=anti-virus01-07) by smtp-out4.blueyonder.co.uk with smtp (Exim 4.52) id 1Ncoon-0000dh-DZ; Wed, 03 Feb 2010 23:39:33 +0000 Received: from [82.46.70.191] (helo=GeorgeLaptop) by asmtp-out5.blueyonder.co.uk with esmtpa (Exim 4.52) id 1Ncoom-0000iu-RK; Wed, 03 Feb 2010 23:39:32 +0000 Message-ID: <93D6970E92AD48B19A71CA4181990805@localhost> From: "George Barwood" To: "Brian Dickson" , References: <3e1abd2c1002030906pec73aj9844392880568457@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [dnsext] Possible alternatives to draft-vandergaast-edns-client-ip-00.txt ? Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2010 23:39:34 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5843 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: DQotLS0tLSBPcmlnaW5hbCBNZXNzYWdlIC0tLS0tIA0KRnJvbTogIkJyaWFuIERpY2tzb24iIDxi cmlhbi5wZXRlci5kaWNrc29uQGdtYWlsLmNvbT4NClRvOiA8bmFtZWRyb3BwZXJzQG9wcy5pZXRm Lm9yZz4NClNlbnQ6IFdlZG5lc2RheSwgRmVicnVhcnkgMDMsIDIwMTAgNTowNiBQTQ0KU3ViamVj dDogW2Ruc2V4dF0gUG9zc2libGUgYWx0ZXJuYXRpdmVzIHRvIGRyYWZ0LXZhbmRlcmdhYXN0LWVk bnMtY2xpZW50LWlwLTAwLnR4dCA/DQoNCg0KPiBJZiB3ZSdyZSB1bmNvbWZvcnRhYmxlIHdpdGgg c2VuZGluZyBjbGllbnQgSVAgYWRkcmVzc2VzIHRvIGF1dGhvcml0eQ0KPiBzZXJ2ZXJzLCBob3cg Y2FuIHNpbWlsYXIgcmVzdWx0cyBiZSBhY2hpZXZlZD8NCg0KSSBkb24ndCB0aGluayB3ZSByZWFs bHkgYXJlIHVuY29tZm9ydGFibGUgd2l0aCBzZW5kaW5nIGNsaWVudCBJUCBhZGRyZXNzZXMuDQoN CkJ1dCBpdCBzZWVtcyB0byBtZSB0aGUgbWFpbiBhbHRlcm5hdGUgc29sdXRpb24gd291bGQgYmUg Zm9yIGNsaWVudHMgdG8gYmUNCmdpdmVuIGEgZnVsbCBsaXN0IG9mIElQIGFkZHJlc3NlcywgYW5k IHRoZW4gcGljayB0aGUgImJlc3QiIG9uZSBieSB1c2luZyBhDQpzZXJ2aWNlIGZvciB0aGlzIHB1 cnBvc2UgKCBETlMgY2FjaGVzIGNvdWxkIG9mZmVyIHRoaXMgYXMgYW4gZXh0cmEgc2VydmljZSwN CnBvc3NpYmx5IGNvbnN1bHRpbmcgcm91dGluZyBpbmZvcm1hdGlvbiB0byBtYWtlIGEgZ29vZCBj aG9pY2UgKS4NCg0KQSAic3VwcHJlc3MgdHJpY2tzIiBvcHRpb24gbWlnaHQgYmUgdXNlZnVsIGhl cmUsIHdpdGggbWVhbmluZw0KImRvbid0IHRyeSBhbmQgcGljayB0aGUgYmVzdCBzZXJ2ZXIsIEkg a25vdyBob3cgdG8gZG8gdGhhdCIuDQoNClRoZSBwcm9ibGVtIGhlcmUgaXMgdGhlIGxhcmdlIGFt b3VudCBvZiB3b3JrIHJlcXVpcmVkIHRvIGRldmVsb3AgdGhlDQpuZWNlc3NhcnkgaW5mcmFzdHJ1 Y3R1cmUsIGdldCBjbGllbnRzIHVwZGF0ZWQsIG92ZXJjb21lIGluZXJ0aWEuDQoNCkkgdGhpbmsg dGhlIGRyYWZ0IGlzIGEgbW9yZSByZWFsaXN0aWMgc29sdXRpb24gZm9yIHRoZSBzaG9ydCB0ZXJt Lg0K From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Feb 3 18:17:48 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 760983A6914; Wed, 3 Feb 2010 18:17:48 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.499 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.499 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1, RELAY_IS_203=0.994] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7Q9rocMB3QmF; Wed, 3 Feb 2010 18:17:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85C293A63EC; Wed, 3 Feb 2010 18:17:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NcrCn-0004wQ-D3 for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Thu, 04 Feb 2010 02:12:29 +0000 Received: from [203.8.7.220] (helo=mail.syd.netstarnetworks.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NcrCk-0004vp-UG for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 04 Feb 2010 02:12:27 +0000 Received: from sdcmail.netstarnetworks.com ([10.18.193.12]) by mail.syd.netstarnetworks.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o142CUR5015694; Thu, 4 Feb 2010 13:12:30 +1100 Received: from melmail.netstarnetworks.com ([10.20.193.13]) by sdcmail.netstarnetworks.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Thu, 4 Feb 2010 13:12:23 +1100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Subject: RE: [dnsext] something for RFC2671-bis MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2010 13:12:22 +1100 Message-ID: <6983BF97BFC24D4EA551F140712329180148A84F@melmail.netstarnetworks.com> In-Reply-To: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [dnsext] something for RFC2671-bis Thread-Index: AcqlJ3aPLeBSD74eQhGLU9/fALvHowADpbsg References: <7c31c8cc1001271556w4918093er6e94e07cb92c4dc4@mail.gmail.com> <6e04e83a1002010944q7abfabc6h892ce4cbb1bddcbf@mail.gmail.com> <973B1F15-E822-491E-89BF-F09FC7E67509@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> <6e04e83a1002011109u1cd55c99k8b584648184cdc73@mail.gmail.com> <162E0DB1-EC86-4206-AB36-6FEFA786B24C@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> <6e04e83a1002011402u395f599g74180d28fdbe5707@mail.gmail.com> <939BB577-FDBE-4573-9129-8CA29B0FB493@sackheads.org> <7B06A582-38E3-4387-BA16-932825A4A62B@rfc1035.com> <7c31c8cc1002021029m74d488ep9c2dc888dd1f93d0@mail.gmail.com> <37ECA1B1-F29D-4582-87E0-1D9AE32E0E3C@rfc1035.com> <6983BF97BFC24D4EA551F140712329180148A7E9@melmail.netstarnetworks.com> From: "Greg Daley" To: "Jim Reid" Cc: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 04 Feb 2010 02:12:23.0153 (UTC) FILETIME=[7CF67610:01CAA53F] Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: Hi Jim, I think you and I are in agreement, but have been missing each other slightly > ...This could be something as simple as an option-=20 > specific flag bit or response code in the reply. So if it's=20 > missing or not set, the client should proceed on the basis that > the server it queried did not understand/support that option. This is good because the responsibility is on the option user, and makes use of positive acknowledgement. > Well that's certainly part of it. But how will the clients=20 > who want to use a funky new option find out they've encountered > something which can't or won't support that option?=20 Unless the protocol can stimulate a response related to the option, you cannot create a negative acknowledgement for a protocol option which is unsupported by the recipient. The system you mentioned above is a good one, since it relies on=20 positive acknowledgement. Your earlier post didn't seem to make the distinction, and where placing requirements on protocol developers, its important to be clear of the limitations of their environment. Whether that was the case or only in my head, I am satisfied now. Thanks, Greg Daley From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Feb 3 19:40:30 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 942223A6A4F; Wed, 3 Feb 2010 19:40:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZZfIdYr3Lv3L; Wed, 3 Feb 2010 19:40:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A048D3A63D3; Wed, 3 Feb 2010 19:40:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NcsVF-000EuX-4p for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Thu, 04 Feb 2010 03:35:37 +0000 Received: from [2001:478:6:0:230:48ff:fe11:220a] (helo=vacation.karoshi.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NcsV9-000Ejb-2d for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 04 Feb 2010 03:35:33 +0000 Received: from karoshi.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by vacation.karoshi.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o143Xntv014064; Thu, 4 Feb 2010 03:33:49 GMT Received: (from bmanning@localhost) by karoshi.com (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id o143XgLq014063; Thu, 4 Feb 2010 03:33:42 GMT Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2010 03:33:42 +0000 From: bmanning@vacation.karoshi.com To: Wilmer van der Gaast Cc: bmanning@vacation.karoshi.com, Nicholas Weaver , Ted Hardie , John Payne , Roy Arends , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] Re: Privacy vs EDNS Client IP... Message-ID: <20100204033342.GA13940@vacation.karoshi.com.> References: <6e04e83a1002011109u1cd55c99k8b584648184cdc73@mail.gmail.com> <162E0DB1-EC86-4206-AB36-6FEFA786B24C@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> <6e04e83a1002011402u395f599g74180d28fdbe5707@mail.gmail.com> <6e04e83a1002011640t1b637e30gd7d0150eeb0fae8d@mail.gmail.com> <6e04e83a1002021155kcb908b1v71d362e03e7c4002@mail.gmail.com> <20100203031042.GE1374@vacation.karoshi.com.> <7c31c8cc1002030135w183db140vd1c638bbdc999800@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <7c31c8cc1002030135w183db140vd1c638bbdc999800@mail.gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On Wed, Feb 03, 2010 at 09:35:52AM +0000, Wilmer van der Gaast wrote: > On 3 February 2010 03:10, wrote: > > hum... this leaps out. being in a situation where your choice is: > > > > a) leave the computer off and read a book > > or > > b) use the DHCP server in the hotel and get forced into using the DNS resolvers > > they hand you... while never knowing if their resolvers have set the "ravish-me" bit. > > > How is the /24 of the (probably heavily NATted) external IP address of > a hotel you're staying at possibly showing up in packets going to > authorities a privacy concern? the privacy concern was releated tot he line you elided - the (in)ability to select a third party. Some folks like using DNS resolvers/forwarders in the same fashion as some use TOR onion routers - as a way to preserve anonymity. Not being able to chose your DNS resolution path is problematic. --bill > > > Wilmer. > > -- > Wilmer van der Gaast, Dublin Traffic SRE. > Google Ireland. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Feb 3 20:51:26 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FF8828C113; Wed, 3 Feb 2010 20:51:26 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.315 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.315 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-2.442, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gxsNxFhZ0dCm; Wed, 3 Feb 2010 20:51:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2C8228C10F; Wed, 3 Feb 2010 20:51:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NctbY-000NND-OV for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Thu, 04 Feb 2010 04:46:12 +0000 Received: from [209.85.216.204] (helo=mail-px0-f204.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NctbV-000NMm-RR for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 04 Feb 2010 04:46:09 +0000 Received: by pxi42 with SMTP id 42so3357034pxi.5 for ; Wed, 03 Feb 2010 20:46:09 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.115.5.18 with SMTP id h18mr414443wai.177.1265258769218; Wed, 03 Feb 2010 20:46:09 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <20100204033342.GA13940@vacation.karoshi.com.> References: <6e04e83a1002011109u1cd55c99k8b584648184cdc73@mail.gmail.com> <6e04e83a1002011402u395f599g74180d28fdbe5707@mail.gmail.com> <6e04e83a1002011640t1b637e30gd7d0150eeb0fae8d@mail.gmail.com> <6e04e83a1002021155kcb908b1v71d362e03e7c4002@mail.gmail.com> <20100203031042.GE1374@vacation.karoshi.com.> <7c31c8cc1002030135w183db140vd1c638bbdc999800@mail.gmail.com> <20100204033342.GA13940@vacation.karoshi.com.> Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2010 20:46:09 -0800 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [dnsext] Re: Privacy vs EDNS Client IP... From: Matthew Dempsky To: bmanning@vacation.karoshi.com Cc: Wilmer van der Gaast , Nicholas Weaver , Ted Hardie , John Payne , Roy Arends , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On Wed, Feb 3, 2010 at 7:33 PM, wrote: > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0the privacy concern was releated tot he line you elided - = the (in)ability > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0to select a third party. =A0Some folks like using DNS reso= lvers/forwarders > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0in the same fashion as some use TOR onion routers - as a w= ay to preserve > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0anonymity. =A0Not being able to chose your DNS resolution = path is problematic. Just as there are TOR routers today, I'm sure there will be open DNS caches that don't use this option. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Feb 3 21:41:34 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BCA73A688E; Wed, 3 Feb 2010 21:41:34 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.908 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.908 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-2.035, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oM4askau-Mz7; Wed, 3 Feb 2010 21:41:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 864983A67F2; Wed, 3 Feb 2010 21:41:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NcuQT-00044l-Il for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Thu, 04 Feb 2010 05:38:49 +0000 Received: from [209.85.216.204] (helo=mail-px0-f204.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NcuQQ-00044L-Q6 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 04 Feb 2010 05:38:46 +0000 Received: by pxi42 with SMTP id 42so3402956pxi.5 for ; Wed, 03 Feb 2010 21:38:45 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.114.187.12 with SMTP id k12mr440553waf.220.1265261925405; Wed, 03 Feb 2010 21:38:45 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <20100204053643.GA15309@vacation.karoshi.com.> References: <6e04e83a1002011402u395f599g74180d28fdbe5707@mail.gmail.com> <6e04e83a1002011640t1b637e30gd7d0150eeb0fae8d@mail.gmail.com> <6e04e83a1002021155kcb908b1v71d362e03e7c4002@mail.gmail.com> <20100203031042.GE1374@vacation.karoshi.com.> <7c31c8cc1002030135w183db140vd1c638bbdc999800@mail.gmail.com> <20100204033342.GA13940@vacation.karoshi.com.> <20100204053643.GA15309@vacation.karoshi.com.> Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2010 21:38:45 -0800 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [dnsext] Re: Privacy vs EDNS Client IP... From: Matthew Dempsky To: bmanning@vacation.karoshi.com Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On Wed, Feb 3, 2010 at 9:36 PM, wrote: > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0they don't have to be open... > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0the trick is, how does the hobo, migrant stub resolver > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0-know- that the sole-source IMR/cache that is offered > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0does or does -NOT- have this tracking collar on? How does it know whether or not the cache is shipping all of its query logs to the FBI/CIA right now? From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Feb 3 21:41:34 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA37F3A67F2; Wed, 3 Feb 2010 21:41:34 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4J3sHxc56DTs; Wed, 3 Feb 2010 21:41:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0FE6F3A680A; Wed, 3 Feb 2010 21:41:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NcuQ9-00040c-No for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Thu, 04 Feb 2010 05:38:29 +0000 Received: from [2001:478:6:0:230:48ff:fe11:220a] (helo=vacation.karoshi.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NcuQ5-0003oS-NH for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 04 Feb 2010 05:38:25 +0000 Received: from karoshi.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by vacation.karoshi.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o145aitv015365; Thu, 4 Feb 2010 05:36:44 GMT Received: (from bmanning@localhost) by karoshi.com (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id o145ah6T015364; Thu, 4 Feb 2010 05:36:43 GMT Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2010 05:36:43 +0000 From: bmanning@vacation.karoshi.com To: Matthew Dempsky Cc: bmanning@vacation.karoshi.com, Wilmer van der Gaast , Nicholas Weaver , Ted Hardie , John Payne , Roy Arends , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] Re: Privacy vs EDNS Client IP... Message-ID: <20100204053643.GA15309@vacation.karoshi.com.> References: <6e04e83a1002011402u395f599g74180d28fdbe5707@mail.gmail.com> <6e04e83a1002011640t1b637e30gd7d0150eeb0fae8d@mail.gmail.com> <6e04e83a1002021155kcb908b1v71d362e03e7c4002@mail.gmail.com> <20100203031042.GE1374@vacation.karoshi.com.> <7c31c8cc1002030135w183db140vd1c638bbdc999800@mail.gmail.com> <20100204033342.GA13940@vacation.karoshi.com.> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On Wed, Feb 03, 2010 at 08:46:09PM -0800, Matthew Dempsky wrote: > On Wed, Feb 3, 2010 at 7:33 PM, wrote: > > the privacy concern was releated tot he line you elided - the (in)ability > > to select a third party. Some folks like using DNS resolvers/forwarders > > in the same fashion as some use TOR onion routers - as a way to preserve > > anonymity. Not being able to chose your DNS resolution path is problematic. > > Just as there are TOR routers today, I'm sure there will be open DNS > caches that don't use this option. > they don't have to be open... the trick is, how does the hobo, migrant stub resolver -know- that the sole-source IMR/cache that is offered does or does -NOT- have this tracking collar on? --bill From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Feb 3 21:50:50 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D36D73A69CD; Wed, 3 Feb 2010 21:50:50 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lKWI3rwm--Nx; Wed, 3 Feb 2010 21:50:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C1333A69CB; Wed, 3 Feb 2010 21:50:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NcuYs-0005CR-7D for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Thu, 04 Feb 2010 05:47:30 +0000 Received: from [2001:478:6:0:230:48ff:fe11:220a] (helo=vacation.karoshi.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NcuYo-00050p-Mn for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 04 Feb 2010 05:47:26 +0000 Received: from karoshi.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by vacation.karoshi.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o145jwtv015457; Thu, 4 Feb 2010 05:45:58 GMT Received: (from bmanning@localhost) by karoshi.com (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id o145jwQA015456; Thu, 4 Feb 2010 05:45:58 GMT Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2010 05:45:58 +0000 From: bmanning@vacation.karoshi.com To: Matthew Dempsky Cc: bmanning@vacation.karoshi.com, namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] Re: Privacy vs EDNS Client IP... Message-ID: <20100204054558.GC15309@vacation.karoshi.com.> References: <6e04e83a1002011640t1b637e30gd7d0150eeb0fae8d@mail.gmail.com> <6e04e83a1002021155kcb908b1v71d362e03e7c4002@mail.gmail.com> <20100203031042.GE1374@vacation.karoshi.com.> <7c31c8cc1002030135w183db140vd1c638bbdc999800@mail.gmail.com> <20100204033342.GA13940@vacation.karoshi.com.> <20100204053643.GA15309@vacation.karoshi.com.> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On Wed, Feb 03, 2010 at 09:38:45PM -0800, Matthew Dempsky wrote: > On Wed, Feb 3, 2010 at 9:36 PM, wrote: > > they don't have to be open... > > the trick is, how does the hobo, migrant stub resolver > > -know- that the sole-source IMR/cache that is offered > > does or does -NOT- have this tracking collar on? > > How does it know whether or not the cache is shipping all of its query > logs to the FBI/CIA right now? well - if one is allowed to choose their first hop IMRs, there is a much better chance wiretapping on the first hop out. --bll From dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Thu Feb 4 02:59:32 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7BA553A6D66 for ; Thu, 4 Feb 2010 02:59:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -23.637 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-23.637 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_EQ_CZ=0.445, HOST_EQ_CZ=0.904, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_16=1.526, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_02=0.383, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_2=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, SARE_FROM_DRUGS=1.666, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_SBL=20, URI_HEX=0.368, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BleT3U2bygbj for ; Thu, 4 Feb 2010 02:59:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from llprofihelp.worldonline.cz (llprofihelp.worldonline.cz [195.146.112.130]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B8743A6D61 for ; Thu, 4 Feb 2010 02:59:29 -0800 (PST) From: VIAGRA (c) Top Reseller To: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: User dnsext-archive 77% Off, Only Today MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20100204105930.1B8743A6D61@core3.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2010 02:59:29 -0800 (PST) User dnsext-archive Newsletter
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From dnsext-archive@ietf.org Thu Feb 4 02:59:37 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E07528C0CF for ; Thu, 4 Feb 2010 02:59:37 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -23.637 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-23.637 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_EQ_CZ=0.445, HOST_EQ_CZ=0.904, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_16=1.526, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_02=0.383, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_2=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, SARE_FROM_DRUGS=1.666, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_SBL=20, URI_HEX=0.368, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oR+Vjiygva7W for ; Thu, 4 Feb 2010 02:59:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from llprofihelp.worldonline.cz (llprofihelp.worldonline.cz [195.146.112.130]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4EDC3A6D68 for ; Thu, 4 Feb 2010 02:59:34 -0800 (PST) From: VIAGRA (c) Top Reseller To: dnsext-archive@ietf.org Subject: User dnsext-archive 78% Off, Only Today MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20100204105934.E4EDC3A6D68@core3.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2010 02:59:34 -0800 (PST) User dnsext-archive Newsletter
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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Thu Feb 4 04:06:24 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1BC23A6AF0; Thu, 4 Feb 2010 04:06:23 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.51 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.51 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-3.014, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BOSBwU3K9PRN; Thu, 4 Feb 2010 04:06:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20C293A695E; Thu, 4 Feb 2010 04:06:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nd0NQ-0006vK-BN for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Thu, 04 Feb 2010 12:00:04 +0000 Received: from [89.16.176.221] (helo=mail.avalus.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nd0NN-0006uP-3q for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 04 Feb 2010 12:00:01 +0000 Received: from [192.168.100.15] (87-194-71-186.bethere.co.uk [87.194.71.186]) by mail.avalus.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 77397C565FA; Thu, 4 Feb 2010 11:59:58 +0000 (GMT) Date: Thu, 04 Feb 2010 11:59:57 +0000 From: Alex Bligh Reply-To: Alex Bligh To: Paul Vixie , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org cc: Alex Bligh Subject: Re: [dnsext] Re: Privacy vs EDNS Client IP... Message-ID: <24778C0206E29204EDDA0FCF@Ximines.local> In-Reply-To: <13956.1265204281@nsa.vix.com> References: <6e04e83a1002010944q7abfabc6h892ce4cbb1bddcbf@mail.gmail.com> <6e04e83a1002011109u1cd55c99k8b584648184cdc73@mail.gmail.com> <162E0DB1-EC86-4206-AB36-6FEFA786B24C@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> <6e04e83a1002011402u395f599g74180d28fdbe5707@mail.gmail.com> <6e04e83a1002011640t1b637e30gd7d0150eeb0fae8d@mail.gmail.com> <6e04e83a1002021155kcb908b1v71d362e03e7c4002@mail.gmail.com> <20100203031042.GE1374@vacation.karoshi.com.> <7c31c8cc1002030135w183db140vd1c638bbdc999800@mail.gmail.com> <13956.1265204281@nsa.vix.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Mac OS X) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: --On 3 February 2010 13:38:01 +0000 Paul Vixie wrote: > i think it's silly that we're circling the wagons on privacy when there > are other better reasons to label this proposal a Really Bad Idea. +1. Whilst I remain somewhat skeptical about the proposal, I am pretty relaxed about the privacy aspects. -- Alex Bligh From dnsext-archive@ietf.org Thu Feb 4 05:20:45 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4275D28C18C for ; Thu, 4 Feb 2010 05:20:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.665 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.665 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HELO_DYNAMIC_DHCP=1.398, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR=2.426, HELO_EQ_DSL=1.129, HELO_EQ_DYNAMIC=1.144, HELO_EQ_SK=1.35, HOST_EQ_SK=0.555, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_24=1.552, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_02=0.383, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_FROM_DRUGS=1.666, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_SBL=20, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, URI_HEX=0.368, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AvvmgNv58WTJ for ; Thu, 4 Feb 2010 05:20:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from adsl-195-168-237-239.dynamic.nextra.sk (adsl-195-168-237-239.dynamic.nextra.sk [195.168.237.239]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07D353A6C1C for ; Thu, 4 Feb 2010 05:20:39 -0800 (PST) From: "VIAGRA from Pfizer" To: dnsext-archive@ietf.org Subject: dnsext-archive Winter -80% Deals Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <20100204132040.07D353A6C1C@core3.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2010 05:20:39 -0800 (PST) December 2009
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From dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Thu Feb 4 05:20:48 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4F5828C18C for ; Thu, 4 Feb 2010 05:20:48 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.666 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.666 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HELO_DYNAMIC_DHCP=1.398, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR=2.426, HELO_EQ_DSL=1.129, HELO_EQ_DYNAMIC=1.144, HELO_EQ_SK=1.35, HOST_EQ_SK=0.555, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_24=1.552, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_02=0.383, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, NUMERIC_HTTP_ADDR=0.001, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_FROM_DRUGS=1.666, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_SBL=20, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, URI_HEX=0.368, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AkuKjB5Qp7eh for ; Thu, 4 Feb 2010 05:20:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from adsl-195-168-237-239.dynamic.nextra.sk (adsl-195-168-237-239.dynamic.nextra.sk [195.168.237.239]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26FEF3A6C1C for ; Thu, 4 Feb 2010 05:20:46 -0800 (PST) From: "VIAGRA from Pfizer" To: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: dnsext-archive Winter -80% Deals Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <20100204132047.26FEF3A6C1C@core3.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2010 05:20:46 -0800 (PST) December 2009
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------=_NextPart_000_0007_01CAA5CD.D8151720-- --===============1754598944==-- From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Thu Feb 4 14:30:35 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D83A3A6DB2; Thu, 4 Feb 2010 14:30:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.164 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.164 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-2.399, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, J_CHICKENPOX_65=0.6, RDNS_NONE=0.1, SARE_RMML_Stock10=0.13] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ouAnzCuK5Prn; Thu, 4 Feb 2010 14:30:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29F1528C120; Thu, 4 Feb 2010 14:30:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NdA70-0004Iu-QO for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Thu, 04 Feb 2010 22:23:46 +0000 Received: from [209.85.218.227] (helo=mail-bw0-f227.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NdA6x-0004IS-Rl for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 04 Feb 2010 22:23:44 +0000 Received: by bwz27 with SMTP id 27so2640810bwz.39 for ; Thu, 04 Feb 2010 14:23:42 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=o5Ih8eSUeSsTbgbnmKBOLrnSpWl3ngIaDlZoMrEGME4=; b=KA0N8/fIOfjrtXO73eOxeXGHW/rb84so+WhaQP5J8TLsFeIgJojTYcZgvCQGISbJxY /UEN7TwCoqKNe64qB5NKEgQznxkX45G3AnchKeG+dfkl78btQllgnABaZtoMPm0bXewy tgJu0BaTUBT0zn+x1ZqYhXEVfocMh7kXqA4GM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=UMcHMbdWt1O3T4X8lw7uhecZnamfMRbaIHQSDK5sdIMN9y9Ow5BVQ6BN0T3j84CRM8 VHzt6EPVbdj2O1umj41CCrdH3hcOv2Emh3+KNMfcdO8blhZJvfD58izPvvlo1JVs9Tkt xgG0n8Ak51oytTzisNkHCM1fU0lyYwPAa/Cb8= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.204.130.153 with SMTP id t25mr1147104bks.85.1265322221738; Thu, 04 Feb 2010 14:23:41 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <6e04e83a1002031216i669a6631u2b132b67a0ed6dbb@mail.gmail.com> References: <3e1abd2c1002030906pec73aj9844392880568457@mail.gmail.com> <6e04e83a1002031216i669a6631u2b132b67a0ed6dbb@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2010 18:23:41 -0400 Message-ID: <3e1abd2c1002041423s45ac6ff9na0307a38f12cf394@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [dnsext] Possible alternatives to draft-vandergaast-edns-client-ip-00.txt ? From: Brian Dickson To: Ted Hardie Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: Hi, Ted, My follow-up has in-line comments as well, plus a bunch of new stuff at the bottom. On Wed, Feb 3, 2010 at 4:16 PM, Ted Hardie wrote: > Hi Brian, > > Some comments in-line. > > On Wed, Feb 3, 2010 at 9:06 AM, Brian Dickson > wrote: >> If we're uncomfortable with sending client IP addresses to authority >> servers, how can similar results be achieved? >> >> This is similar to a problem in routing system design, which has been >> looked at by the IRTF folks. >> >> It boils down to three choices - push, pull, or publish/query. >> >> All three have issues of scaling, timeliness, and >> reliability/resiliency/shared-fate. >> >> Sending client IP (however you try to anonymize it) is a "push". >> >> Having the authority server(s)/CDN(s) somehow inform all the resolvers >> in the world of their individual geo-ip (etc) boundaries (I don't even >> know how that would even be possible) would be "pull", or "reverse >> push". >> > > I can imagine a different mix here that has the geo-ip boundaries publish= ed only > to the interested resolvers. =A0A resolver is "interested" whenever it ha= s > a query for which localization is available; the problem is that it induc= es > latency. I think the idea of the original draft (draft-vandergaast-edns-client-ip-00.txt), of using EDNS0 options, would be applicable in this context, to avoid latency. Basically, a resolver doing this kind of thing, would always do the "option", and keep track of places where the option is recognized. > Imagine a resolver sending a query for an RR to the relevant authoritativ= e > server; it gets an answer and additional data that localization data is > available. =A0An interested resolver can then request the localization da= ta > and serve the localized answer instead of the original answer. =A0This > unfortunately generates at least one additional round-trip plus the proce= ssing > time. This would be true for the first query to that authority server, but not subsequent queries, presuming that the resolver tracks option-state by authority server. Perhaps delegation servers which are geo-aware (i.e. which delegate to geo-aware authority servers, and which know how to add the EDNS0-option) could add unsolicited information regarding the geo-ip-awareness associated with the delegation itself? If an authority server is known to answer queries including localization data, and the resolver is interested, the resolver would always send the localized version of the = data. Whether it makes sense to always request localized data, can be reduced to the "dogbert law of salting meals". (Dogbert always adds salt to food, because 999/1000 meals need salt, while a meal is about 100 mouthfuls. Tasting first before adding salt, results in 10 times more unpleasant mouthfuls.) >=A0If resolvers chose not to get localized data when the requester was > local (presuming that the original answer had been localized to the resol= vers > IP), then this also leaks the information that the resolver thought > the requester > was local. Counter this with the notion, that when the requester is local, the nonce for the local localization should be sent.... >> The use of the nonce effectively anonymizes the query/answer. >> > > Doesn't this depend on the size of the set of IP addresses the geo-ip > provider thinks is close? =A0What if the set sharing a nonce is still a /= 24? It is certainly possible, even probably, that there will exist nonces which consist of a set of a single /24. However, let's presume that the nonce granularity *generally* is only as useful as the ability to easily aggregate and serve the statistics on the nonces. There is the competing desire to still have the performance benefits of a sanely-sized set of nonces, e.g. hashed lookups. Unique nonces at a /24 granularity (in IPv4) would require O(10M) nonces. On the other hand, I doubt that market granularity beyond O(1000) nonces has any particular value. And from a true geographic and topological basis, the number of policies the nonces would likely map onto would probably be smaller, perhaps O(100). The mappings of nonce -> policy would likely differ by zone, i.e. data being served. But the benefits of reducing the number of things mapped to O(1000) would benefit *both* the CDN *and* the resolver operator. The issues for those who find themselves in a /24 nonce, are left as an exercise for the paranoid. (Think NSA filter-fodder signature lines, only implemented in a port-knocking style of fake-DNS-queries method, with randomized choices.) >> The use of the same tree for many authoritative zones effectively >> further anonymizes the geo-ip lookups, since the likelihood of the >> nonce being found in-cache increases monotonically over time. >> >> Paranoid clients can do lookups to well-known "safe" zones, or even >> the geo-ip providers' nonce trees directly, to prime the cache, before >> doing "real" lookups, e.g. of their > provider>'s web site. >> >> Comments on this idea? >> >> Anyone think it is worth pursuing? >> >> Brian >> >> > > I think it is very useful to think about the problem space more generally= , > rather than starting out with a solutions draft. Agreed. I only put the specifics in, to demonstrate that it was not a strictly academic argument. Once you can demonstrate that *a* solution is possible, then the specifics of *which* solution is preferred makes much more sense. So, more generalized ideas on the problem space: What assumptions on respective sizes of data set suggest feasibility of any particular solution (what are the boundary conditions, basically) Whether there exists one or more actual geo-ip incoherent systems in use today (we know this is true, actually) Whether there is significant benefit to avoiding a "format war" between proprietary systems Whether there exist independent geo-ip providers (i.e. not also serving incoherent data) Whether there are enough independent producers and consumers and combined producer/consumers of geo-ip/incoherent DNS data to justify the effort Whether there is demonstrable benefit (even to market dominant entities) for cooperation among competitors in this space Whether the expected number of direct participants (producing or consuming geo-ip/DNS data) >> number of unique DNS software implementations What method to use for publishing the reverse -> nonce data What method to encode the reverse prefix data What the relationship is between query vs answer on reverse->nonce lookups What size of nonce is needed What, if any, structure or association needs to be used in the nonce Where is computation required, and how much Who benefits in what way, and at what cost to whom What incremental changes are needed, and what is the impact to traffic What existing systems are able to produce What existing systems are able to consume I think the assumptions will suggest avenues of discussion on the other areas, so I'll tackle those first. 1) O(zones) >> O(nonces) (for zones using a geo-ip non-coherence mechanism) =3D> It doesn't make sense to build a system with a trivial usage base, in terms of zones 2) O(geo-ip-prefixes) >> O(nonces) =3D> It only makes sense to use nonces if there is a many-to-one mapping, on average 3) O(geo-ip-prefixes) << O(zones_i x nonce_i | i=3D1..N) =3D> Stated another way - the expectation is that the geo-ip cache will be fully populated before the zones are all cached - otherwise there is no net benefit 4) cache hit %age (geo-ip-prefixes) >> cache hit %age (zone,nonce tuples) 5) speed of population of geo-ip-prefix->nonce cache >> 1:1 lookup:cache =3D> What is the cold-start behaviour? Priming the system will be important in general, on the resolver side. Analogous to priming the root from the hints file. 6) afinity(stub-resolver-ip, geo-ip-prefix->nonce) >> random-distribution =3D> The real benefits are when cache hit %age on zone data is better than random. This assumption is the most tenuous, more data would be needed. But. I would expect that regionalized content is more likely to be regionally consumed. To summarize the assumptions and their corollaries: - Separating the geo-ip from the authority data, by means of reference "nonce", is necessary but not sufficient, to achieve scaling, interoperability, and privacy - Speeding up the geo-ip cache population (e.g. by returning much more data from the geo-ip mapping, than just a single prefix->nonce, for any lookup) is likely needed to achieve critical mass fast enough - The ability to selectively use (or not use) individual geo-ip sets, gives control to the recursive resolver - The size of the served set of zones needs to be big enough to justify the= use - The nonces cannot collide between geo-ip providers - Efficient on-the-wire encoding is necessary - Avoiding or eliminating geo-ip cache management "gunk" overhead, is needed to achieve buy-in - that work should be done by the provider of geo-ip data, to achieve a good "fairness" balanace - The mostly-unchanging nature of the geo-ip mappings, may lead to further network-centric optimizations, e.g. use of torrents, or other kinds of peer-to-peer resolver cache population techniques - It's all about the geo-ip cache, and making the nonce set size as small as possible, particularly on a per-authority-server and/or per-zone-served basis - If a given RR is returned with a nonce, when queried with a nonce, having an EDNS0 options "additional nonce" section listing other nonces for which the same result is valid, would further improve scalability Here are the meta-arguments in favour of developing a standard for the CDN-like DNS tricks, i.e. incoherent answers that are cacheable, presuming the ability of a resolver to cache information relative to query geo-ip. A) There are already one or more systems doing so, even as a vertically integrated set of components. Whether it is seen as a "business", a "service", or a "protocol" is somewhat academic. B) Currently, to make use of any one system, requires pointing one's stub resolver at one such proprietary (set of) resolver(s). C) There is no way to intelligently make use of multiple such systems, without further proprietary arrangements. D) Proprietary stuff means "no code available" Now consider what adding a standard to this accomplishes: I) Inter-provider cooperation is possible, e.g. where respective geo-ip sets have "better" accuracy II) Inter-consumer interoperability means real market competition is the logical outcome III) Arbitrary third parties can "roll their own" resolvers and expect them to work fine IV) The scaling benefits happen as a result of all of the above - without limiting the resolver activity to equipment operated by the provider of the geo-ip data, the scalability becomes more manageable. Offloading of any portion of the resolver-side work, is of benefit to the producer, and having resolvers under one's own control enhances the trust and reliability of the combined system V) The ability to select resolvers, or even build and operate resolvers, in arbitrary locations, allows one to manage risk, especially related to regionalized laws and surveillance. I can put a compatible resolver on a hosted server anywhere I want, based on what I worry most about. Privacy - Europe or Canada; surveillance/tampering, not US or China; subpoena/extradition/etc., some remote place that ironically is generally uncool, like any "axis of evil" country. VI) Standards based and widely used or at least relatively high demand, means it is likely to get built into one or more mainline DNS software products - better for everyone. VII) Places some aspect of design (including peer review) in dnsext - for whatever that adds DNS tricks might be a bad idea, but they're already a reality. The idea is to reject one reality, and substitute another, better one (to paraphrase Adam from Mythbusters.) Brian From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Fri Feb 5 07:04:43 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 64F583A680E; Fri, 5 Feb 2010 07:04:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_23=0.6, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, NO_RELAYS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fo115oK6p74m; Fri, 5 Feb 2010 07:04:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F5AF3A6D03; Fri, 5 Feb 2010 07:04:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NdPd6-0008g6-Os for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Fri, 05 Feb 2010 14:57:56 +0000 Received: from [2001:1488:800:400::400] (helo=mail.nic.cz) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NdPcz-0008fN-TI for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 05 Feb 2010 14:57:50 +0000 Received: from [IPv6:2001:1488:ac14:1400:224:e8ff:fea9:f617] (unknown [IPv6:2001:1488:ac14:1400:224:e8ff:fea9:f617]) by mail.nic.cz (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 43EBD7342AB; Fri, 5 Feb 2010 15:57:43 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <4B6C31E6.6040900@nic.cz> Date: Fri, 05 Feb 2010 15:57:42 +0100 From: =?UTF-8?B?T25kxZllaiBTdXLDvQ==?= User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.9.1.7) Gecko/20100111 Lightning/1.0b1 Thunderbird/3.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: =?UTF-8?B?Q29sbSBNYWNDw6FydGhhaWdo?= CC: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] Re: a definition of consistency References: <201001290216.DAA11317@TR-Sys.de> <6f5b6fe71001290132s258b9eb3i1cdbd3e6f4c75f7f@mail.gmail.com> <2F01D84C-6633-499F-B3D3-ACE924AD40DF@rfc1035.com> <6f5b6fe71001290223h77443b7cy21eb884a868daf46@mail.gmail.com> <6f5b6fe71001290405i425107bcge41db790cd94558e@mail.gmail.com> <6f5b6fe71001290721v5a3b975cgbe355aa29c3f8434@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <6f5b6fe71001290721v5a3b975cgbe355aa29c3f8434@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On 29.1.2010 16:21, Colm MacCárthaigh wrote: > 2010/1/29 Jim Reid: >>> I saw your complaints about language choice and redirection, but I'm >>> not sure how this is related to DNS tricks. >> >> Because it's stupid DNS tricks that are responsible for taking my browser to >> pages in languages I don't understand and didn't ask for. > > I really doubt that it is. Do you think it's likely that those page > providers have distinct network end-node destinations on a > per-language basis? For a concrete example; When I query > google.com/nl/ie/co.uk/be/ch and so on, I actually get the same IPv4 > result. I'm being directed to my closest node (probably a data-centre > in Dublin, where I also live). I presume the IP is the front-end of > some kind of load-balancer, or the Google web-server. But the language > negotiation is orthogonal, and likely based a combination of > Accept-Lang and Host headers, or possibly a GeoIP lookup on the HTTP > client-ip. > > Can you provide one concrete example where incoherent DNS responses > result in being directed to sites that respond in different languages > purely based on the ultimate destination IP address? You just gave one - Google. http://pastebin.com/m363f6ebb O. -- Ondřej Surý vedoucí výzkumu/R&D manager ------------------------------------------- CZ.NIC, z.s.p.o. -- Laboratoře CZ.NIC Americka 23, 120 00 Praha 2, Czech Republic mailto:ondrej.sury@nic.cz http://nic.cz/ tel:+420.222745110 fax:+420.222745112 ------------------------------------------- From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Fri Feb 5 07:30:31 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61D873A6DC8; Fri, 5 Feb 2010 07:30:31 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.891 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.891 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-2.318, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RDNS_NONE=0.1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 76XbjNPWGFuJ; Fri, 5 Feb 2010 07:30:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CB853A6A0B; Fri, 5 Feb 2010 07:30:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NdQ6F-000CYo-Fs for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Fri, 05 Feb 2010 15:28:03 +0000 Received: from [216.239.44.51] (helo=smtp-out.google.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NdQ6C-000CYQ-2C for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 05 Feb 2010 15:28:00 +0000 Received: from wpaz9.hot.corp.google.com (wpaz9.hot.corp.google.com [172.24.198.73]) by smtp-out.google.com with ESMTP id o15FRwje027936 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 2010 07:27:59 -0800 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=beta; t=1265383679; bh=0DPMzKW8HwZy47HJjAtXHhvJfKs=; h=MIME-Version:In-Reply-To:References:Date:Message-ID:Subject:From: To:Cc:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=KHMGH60JhCBQxnPfeBnZlCsR2DDghkUZ4+hef7/JamiTFKn/9aEToN8L8igxBiETQ j8W99qgLXWfcKeWBKw4Mw== DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=beta; d=google.com; c=nofws; q=dns; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to: cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:x-system-of-record; b=IVD5rwDs5taAxmNaVaRnZ1NPRDl3eEAnGDzqLsadJ9CCNs/YefM305faHyaNztnxH lKpxM2F+yYGwmNBp0a17g== Received: from bwz4 (bwz4.prod.google.com [10.188.26.4]) by wpaz9.hot.corp.google.com with ESMTP id o15FRtbS008714 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 2010 07:27:57 -0800 Received: by bwz4 with SMTP id 4so6540267bwz.2 for ; Fri, 05 Feb 2010 07:27:55 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.204.156.212 with SMTP id y20mr1743751bkw.126.1265383675179; Fri, 05 Feb 2010 07:27:55 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <4B6C31E6.6040900@nic.cz> References: <201001290216.DAA11317@TR-Sys.de> <6f5b6fe71001290132s258b9eb3i1cdbd3e6f4c75f7f@mail.gmail.com> <2F01D84C-6633-499F-B3D3-ACE924AD40DF@rfc1035.com> <6f5b6fe71001290223h77443b7cy21eb884a868daf46@mail.gmail.com> <6f5b6fe71001290405i425107bcge41db790cd94558e@mail.gmail.com> <6f5b6fe71001290721v5a3b975cgbe355aa29c3f8434@mail.gmail.com> <4B6C31E6.6040900@nic.cz> Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2010 15:27:54 +0000 Message-ID: <7c31c8cc1002050727s2ffc4220tf27cabf0d68c8faa@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [dnsext] Re: a definition of consistency From: Wilmer van der Gaast To: =?UTF-8?B?T25kxZllaiBTdXLDvQ==?= Cc: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Colm_MacC=E1rthaigh?= , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-System-Of-Record: true Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: 2010/2/5 Ond=C5=99ej Sur=C3=BD : >> Can you provide one concrete example where incoherent DNS responses >> result in being directed to sites that respond in different languages >> purely based on the ultimate destination IP address? > You just gave one - Google. > > http://pastebin.com/m363f6ebb > I don't see how this proves your point. No matter which Google IP address you connect to, you'll get the same response to the same HTTP request. The forward you're showing here is sent to you because your *HTTP* connection comes from a Czech IP address. When I don't want to see Dutch content (which is usually the case), I usually use http://www.google.com/ncr which disables the country redirect. Google does *NOT* use DNS to send you content in a different language, and I hope nobody else does because there are much better ways to do it. Wilmer. --=20 Wilmer van der Gaast, Dublin Traffic SRE. Google Ireland. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Fri Feb 5 07:30:41 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACD5F3A6DC8; Fri, 5 Feb 2010 07:30:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.499 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.499 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.751, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Db7brPk-nPyS; Fri, 5 Feb 2010 07:30:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D03F13A6A6D; Fri, 5 Feb 2010 07:30:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NdQ5n-000CVk-V3 for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Fri, 05 Feb 2010 15:27:35 +0000 Received: from [192.150.186.11] (helo=fruitcake.ICSI.Berkeley.EDU) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NdQ5k-000CVT-Qg for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 05 Feb 2010 15:27:32 +0000 Received: from [IPv6:::1] (jack.ICSI.Berkeley.EDU [192.150.186.73]) by fruitcake.ICSI.Berkeley.EDU (8.12.11.20060614/8.12.11) with ESMTP id o15FR6u5024623; Fri, 5 Feb 2010 07:27:06 -0800 (PST) References: <201001290216.DAA11317@TR-Sys.de> <6f5b6fe71001290132s258b9eb3i1cdbd3e6f4c75f7f@mail.gmail.com> <2F01D84C-6633-499F-B3D3-ACE924AD40DF@rfc1035.com> <6f5b6fe71001290223h77443b7cy21eb884a868daf46@mail.gmail.com> <6f5b6fe71001290405i425107bcge41db790cd94558e@mail.gmail.com> <6f5b6fe71001290721v5a3b975cgbe355aa29c3f8434@mail.gmail.com> <4B6C31E6.6040900@nic.cz> In-Reply-To: <4B6C31E6.6040900@nic.cz> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Message-Id: <5C38BA36-8893-4D44-8E70-29BFCFE3701A@icsi.berkeley.edu> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: Nicholas Weaver , =?iso-8859-1?Q?Colm_MacC=E1rthaigh?= , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org From: Nicholas Weaver Subject: Re: [dnsext] Re: a definition of consistency Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2010 07:27:06 -0800 To: =?utf-8?Q?Ond=C5=99ej_Sur=C3=BD?= X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On Feb 5, 2010, at 6:57 AM, Ond=C5=99ej Sur=C3=BD wrote: >> Can you provide one concrete example where incoherent DNS responses >> result in being directed to sites that respond in different languages >> purely based on the ultimate destination IP address? >=20 > You just gave one - Google. >=20 > http://pastebin.com/m363f6ebb Actually, I don't believe Google does that. Rather, what I believe happens is that it does a geoip lookup on the IP = address where the actual HTTP request comes from, and does an HTTP = redirect to the country-specific version. This behavior could be = validated by passing the request through a non-US tunnel but using the = US DNS result. So its using DNS to direct you to "closest" instance of www.google.com, = and that then does the redirect to the country-specific version. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Fri Feb 5 07:41:51 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F50C3A6F18; Fri, 5 Feb 2010 07:41:51 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_23=0.6, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, NO_RELAYS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wLQVCAihrOSR; Fri, 5 Feb 2010 07:41:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 826A73A6F09; Fri, 5 Feb 2010 07:41:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NdQH0-000EDr-AL for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Fri, 05 Feb 2010 15:39:10 +0000 Received: from [2001:1488:800:400::400] (helo=mail.nic.cz) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NdQGx-000ECK-62 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 05 Feb 2010 15:39:07 +0000 Received: from [IPv6:2001:1488:ac14:1400:224:e8ff:fea9:f617] (unknown [IPv6:2001:1488:ac14:1400:224:e8ff:fea9:f617]) by mail.nic.cz (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 63B9F734334; Fri, 5 Feb 2010 16:39:01 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <4B6C3B94.7080505@nic.cz> Date: Fri, 05 Feb 2010 16:39:00 +0100 From: =?UTF-8?B?T25kxZllaiBTdXLDvQ==?= User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.9.1.7) Gecko/20100111 Lightning/1.0b1 Thunderbird/3.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Wilmer van der Gaast CC: =?UTF-8?B?Q29sbSBNYWNDw6FydGhhaWdo?= , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] Re: a definition of consistency References: <201001290216.DAA11317@TR-Sys.de> <6f5b6fe71001290132s258b9eb3i1cdbd3e6f4c75f7f@mail.gmail.com> <2F01D84C-6633-499F-B3D3-ACE924AD40DF@rfc1035.com> <6f5b6fe71001290223h77443b7cy21eb884a868daf46@mail.gmail.com> <6f5b6fe71001290405i425107bcge41db790cd94558e@mail.gmail.com> <6f5b6fe71001290721v5a3b975cgbe355aa29c3f8434@mail.gmail.com> <4B6C31E6.6040900@nic.cz> <7c31c8cc1002050727s2ffc4220tf27cabf0d68c8faa@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <7c31c8cc1002050727s2ffc4220tf27cabf0d68c8faa@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On 5.2.2010 16:27, Wilmer van der Gaast wrote: > 2010/2/5 Ondřej Surý: >>> Can you provide one concrete example where incoherent DNS responses >>> result in being directed to sites that respond in different languages >>> purely based on the ultimate destination IP address? >> You just gave one - Google. >> >> http://pastebin.com/m363f6ebb >> > I don't see how this proves your point. > > No matter which Google IP address you connect to, you'll get the same > response to the same HTTP request. The forward you're showing here is > sent to you because your *HTTP* connection comes from a Czech IP > address. True. I was more thinking about example of website which gives you content in strange foreign language regardless of what you really requested. Sorry for not reading Colm's sentense more precisely. It's Friday afternoon after all... > When I don't want to see Dutch content (which is usually the case), I > usually use http://www.google.com/ncr which disables the country > redirect. Ah, thanks for hint. Ondrej -- Ondřej Surý vedoucí výzkumu/R&D manager ------------------------------------------- CZ.NIC, z.s.p.o. -- Laboratoře CZ.NIC Americka 23, 120 00 Praha 2, Czech Republic mailto:ondrej.sury@nic.cz http://nic.cz/ tel:+420.222745110 fax:+420.222745112 ------------------------------------------- From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Fri Feb 5 07:50:41 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 560C728C0F5; Fri, 5 Feb 2010 07:50:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.626 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.626 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.578, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LvMkHUc4wuu5; Fri, 5 Feb 2010 07:50:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 858D73A6EA3; Fri, 5 Feb 2010 07:50:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NdQPl-000Fdk-9V for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Fri, 05 Feb 2010 15:48:13 +0000 Received: from [192.150.186.11] (helo=fruitcake.ICSI.Berkeley.EDU) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NdQPg-000FZs-6k for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 05 Feb 2010 15:48:08 +0000 Received: from [IPv6:::1] (jack.ICSI.Berkeley.EDU [192.150.186.73]) by fruitcake.ICSI.Berkeley.EDU (8.12.11.20060614/8.12.11) with ESMTP id o15Flh23026218; Fri, 5 Feb 2010 07:47:43 -0800 (PST) References: <201001290216.DAA11317@TR-Sys.de> <6f5b6fe71001290132s258b9eb3i1cdbd3e6f4c75f7f@mail.gmail.com> <2F01D84C-6633-499F-B3D3-ACE924AD40DF@rfc1035.com> <6f5b6fe71001290223h77443b7cy21eb884a868daf46@mail.gmail.com> <6f5b6fe71001290405i425107bcge41db790cd94558e@mail.gmail.com> <6f5b6fe71001290721v5a3b975cgbe355aa29c3f8434@mail.gmail.com> <4B6C31E6.6040900@nic.cz> <5C38BA36-8893-4D44-8E70-29BFCFE3701A@icsi.berkeley.edu> In-Reply-To: <5C38BA36-8893-4D44-8E70-29BFCFE3701A@icsi.berkeley.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: =?utf-8?Q?Ond=C5=99ej_Sur=C3=BD?= , =?iso-8859-1?Q?Colm_MacC=E1rthaigh?= , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org From: Nicholas Weaver Subject: Re: [dnsext] Re: a definition of consistency Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2010 07:47:42 -0800 To: Nicholas Weaver X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On Feb 5, 2010, at 7:27 AM, Nicholas Weaver wrote: >=20 > On Feb 5, 2010, at 6:57 AM, Ond=C5=99ej Sur=C3=BD wrote: >>> Can you provide one concrete example where incoherent DNS responses >>> result in being directed to sites that respond in different = languages >>> purely based on the ultimate destination IP address? >>=20 >> You just gave one - Google. >>=20 >> http://pastebin.com/m363f6ebb >=20 > Actually, I don't believe Google does that. >=20 > Rather, what I believe happens is that it does a geoip lookup on the = IP address where the actual HTTP request comes from, and does an HTTP = redirect to the country-specific version. This behavior could be = validated by passing the request through a non-US tunnel but using the = US DNS result. I can however verify the opposite: I did a lookup bounced through a new = zealand DNS server, the address it gave for www.google.com was: www.google.com. 380081 IN CNAME www.l.google.com. www.l.google.com. 270 IN A 66.249.89.103 www.l.google.com. 270 IN A 66.249.89.147 www.l.google.com. 270 IN A 66.249.89.99 www.l.google.com. 270 IN A 66.249.89.104 When I connect to that server directly using Telnet and send a HTTP = request, I get back what looks to be the normal google homepage blob, = but I know the google standard behavior when you are connected from a = foreign country is to do a redirect to the country-specific version. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Fri Feb 5 09:15:26 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C29528C1B7; Fri, 5 Feb 2010 09:15:26 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.195 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.195 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OTH-GhVORrFF; Fri, 5 Feb 2010 09:15:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CD793A6A22; Fri, 5 Feb 2010 09:15:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NdRhp-0000t3-Dj for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Fri, 05 Feb 2010 17:10:57 +0000 Received: from [216.240.18.37] (helo=mx2.netapp.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NdRhm-0000sl-A5 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 05 Feb 2010 17:10:54 +0000 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.49,414,1262592000"; d="scan'208";a="311767249" Received: from smtp1.corp.netapp.com ([10.57.156.124]) by mx2-out.netapp.com with ESMTP; 05 Feb 2010 09:10:38 -0800 Received: from sacrsexc1-prd.hq.netapp.com (sacrsexc1-prd.hq.netapp.com [10.99.115.27]) by smtp1.corp.netapp.com (8.13.1/8.13.1/NTAP-1.6) with ESMTP id o15HAbOv021799; Fri, 5 Feb 2010 09:10:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from rtprsexc1-prd.hq.netapp.com ([10.100.161.114]) by sacrsexc1-prd.hq.netapp.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Fri, 5 Feb 2010 09:10:37 -0800 Received: from RTPMVEXC1-PRD.hq.netapp.com ([10.100.161.111]) by rtprsexc1-prd.hq.netapp.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Fri, 5 Feb 2010 12:10:36 -0500 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Subject: RE: [dnsext] Re: a definition of consistency Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2010 12:10:34 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <4B6C3B94.7080505@nic.cz> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [dnsext] Re: a definition of consistency Thread-Index: Acqmerzy+LD1LomtQJqAgbZ2UVde+QAAis+g References: <201001290216.DAA11317@TR-Sys.de> <6f5b6fe71001290132s258b9eb3i1cdbd3e6f4c75f7f@mail.gmail.com> <2F01D84C-6633-499F-B3D3-ACE924AD40DF@rfc1035.com> <6f5b6fe71001290223h77443b7cy21eb884a868daf46@mail.gmail.com> <6f5b6fe71001290405i425107bcge41db790cd94558e@mail.gmail.com> <6f5b6fe71001290721v5a3b975cgbe355aa29c3f8434@mail.gmail.com> <4B6C31E6.6040900@nic.cz> <7c31c8cc1002050727s2ffc4220tf27cabf0d68c8faa@mail.gmail.com> <4B6C3B94.7080505@nic.cz> From: "Everhart, Craig" To: =?UTF-8?B?T25kxZllaiBTdXLDvQ==?= , "Wilmer van der Gaast" Cc: =?UTF-8?B?Q29sbSBNYWNDw6FydGhhaWdo?= , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 05 Feb 2010 17:10:36.0207 (UTC) FILETIME=[2223A3F0:01CAA686] Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. 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From dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Sun Feb 7 12:44:50 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CB183A728A for ; Sun, 7 Feb 2010 12:44:50 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -52.735 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-52.735 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_EQ_BR=0.955, HOST_EQ_BR=1.295, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_16=1.526, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_02=0.383, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_2=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, SARE_FROM_DRUGS=1.666, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_RED=0.001, URI_HEX=0.368, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7UXIiFNWTpqV for ; Sun, 7 Feb 2010 12:44:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from angra1.inova.net.br (angra1.inova.net.br [189.17.142.34]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 104A73A7289 for ; Sun, 7 Feb 2010 12:44:48 -0800 (PST) From: "VIAGRA (c) Pfizer Reseller" To: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: User dnsext-archive 84% Off MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20100207204449.104A73A7289@core3.amsl.com> Date: Sun, 7 Feb 2010 12:44:48 -0800 (PST) User dnsext-archive Newsletter
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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Sun Feb 7 18:22:54 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E18F3A7109; Sun, 7 Feb 2010 18:22:54 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, NO_RELAYS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id F-OiK8oKc8xW; Sun, 7 Feb 2010 18:22:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC2E93A7104; Sun, 7 Feb 2010 18:22:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NeJAW-0008KD-87 for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Mon, 08 Feb 2010 02:16:08 +0000 Received: from [2001:1890:1112:1::20] (helo=mail.ietf.org) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NeJAS-0008Jw-Po for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 08 Feb 2010 02:16:05 +0000 Received: by core3.amsl.com (Postfix, from userid 0) id D96803A6F8D; Sun, 7 Feb 2010 18:15:02 -0800 (PST) From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org To: i-d-announce@ietf.org Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: [dnsext] I-D Action:draft-ietf-dnsext-newzone-notify-00.txt Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <20100208021502.D96803A6F8D@core3.amsl.com> Date: Sun, 7 Feb 2010 18:15:02 -0800 (PST) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the DNS Extensions Working Group of the IETF. Title : A mechanism for synchronization across name servers on zone creation Author(s) : C. Wang, et al. Filename : draft-ietf-dnsext-newzone-notify-00.txt Pages : 9 Date : 2010-02-07 This memo describes the NEWZONE_NOTIFY opcode for DNS, by which a primary master server advises a set of slave servers that there is a zone has been created and that a query should be initiated to discover the new zone data. This draft also specifies a mechanism for the slave servers to achieve authenticated synchronization of zone data as well as zone synchronization information with the primary when a zone is created on the primary. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-dnsext-newzone-notify-00.txt Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-dnsext-newzone-notify-00.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2010-02-07180515.I-D@ietf.org> --NextPart-- From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Sun Feb 7 18:37:55 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D9D63A6885; Sun, 7 Feb 2010 18:37:55 -0800 (PST) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Duplicate header field: "Message-ID" X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.615 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.615 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_20=-0.74, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER=0.803, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id f3NQ-TnGMUvW; Sun, 7 Feb 2010 18:37:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D4703A67E1; Sun, 7 Feb 2010 18:37:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NeJS5-0009ZD-WB for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Mon, 08 Feb 2010 02:34:18 +0000 Received: from [159.226.7.146] (helo=cnnic.cn) by psg.com with smtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NeJS2-0009Yn-Bp for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 08 Feb 2010 02:34:14 +0000 Received: (eyou send program); Mon, 08 Feb 2010 10:34:11 +0800 Message-ID: <465596451.30747@cnnic.cn> X-EYOUMAIL-SMTPAUTH: wangxin@cnnic.cn Received: from unknown (HELO cindy) (127.0.0.1) by 127.0.0.1 with SMTP; Mon, 08 Feb 2010 10:34:11 +0800 Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2010 10:34:14 +0800 From: "Cindy Wang" To: "namedroppers" Subject: [dnsext] a new draft on zone creation Message-ID: <201002081034143280701@cnnic.cn> X-mailer: Foxmail 6, 15, 201, 22 [cn] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====003_Dragon265358061151_=====" Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --=====003_Dragon265358061151_===== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear all, We have a draft with, Title:A mechanism for synchronization across name servers on zone creation Abstract: This memo describes the NEWZONE_NOTIFY opcode for DNS, by which a primary master server advises a set of slave servers that there is a zone has been created and that a query should be initiated to discover the new zone data. This draft also specifies a mechanism for the slave servers to achieve authenticated synchronization of zone data as well as zone synchronization information with the primary when a zone is created on the primary. please find the text at: http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-dnsext-newzone-notify-00.txt. Thank you for your attention and sorry for the not so good format. ^_^ Thank you. 2010-02-08 Cindy Wang DNS Lab, CNNIC Labs China INterent Network Information Center (CNNIC) Phone: 8610-58813074 Email: wangxin@cnnic.cn MSN: cindy_wangx@hotmail.com --=====003_Dragon265358061151_===== Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Dear all,
 
We have a draft with,
Title:A mechanism for synchronization across name servers on zone creation
Abstract:
This memo describes the NEWZONE_NOTIFY opcode for DNS, by which a 
primary master server advises a set of slave servers that there is a 
zone has been created and that a query should be initiated to 
discover the new zone data.

This draft also specifies a mechanism for the slave servers to 
achieve authenticated synchronization of zone data as well as zone 
synchronization information with the primary when a zone is created 
on the primary.
 
 
Thank you for your attention and sorry for the not so good format. ^_^
 
Thank you.
 
 
2010-02-08
Cindy Wang
DNS Lab, CNNIC Labs
China INterent Network Information Center (CNNIC)
Phone: 8610-58813074
Email: wangxin@cnnic.cn
MSN: cindy_wangx@hotmail.com
 --=====003_Dragon265358061151_=====-- From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Sun Feb 7 18:58:12 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B01633A67E1; Sun, 7 Feb 2010 18:58:12 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.591 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.591 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.831, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTTP_ESCAPED_HOST=0.134, J_CHICKENPOX_51=0.6, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mW+07rxz13z5; Sun, 7 Feb 2010 18:58:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4AC13A6778; Sun, 7 Feb 2010 18:58:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NeJmc-000BIv-TO for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Mon, 08 Feb 2010 02:55:30 +0000 Received: from [66.92.146.20] (helo=stora.ogud.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NeJmW-000BIV-QL for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 08 Feb 2010 02:55:25 +0000 Received: from [IPv6:::1] (nyttbox.md.ogud.com [10.20.30.4]) by stora.ogud.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o182tL8r010802; Sun, 7 Feb 2010 21:55:21 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from ogud@ogud.com) Message-ID: <4B6F7D18.2080704@ogud.com> Date: Sun, 07 Feb 2010 21:55:20 -0500 From: Olafur Gudmundsson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.1; en-GB; rv:1.9.1.7) Gecko/20100111 Thunderbird/3.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Cindy Wang CC: namedroppers Subject: Re: [dnsext] a new draft on zone creation References: <465596451.30747@cnnic.cn> In-Reply-To: <465596451.30747@cnnic.cn> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------000305030301010802080607" X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.67 on 10.20.30.4 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------000305030301010802080607 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This draft is not an official working group draft, I made the mistake of approving the draft by clicking on the wrong link. I have This is a valid idea to consider in the working group, I have asked the editors to resubmit the draft as individual submission, and ask the working group to adopt the work item. Olafur On 07/02/2010 9:34 PM, Cindy Wang wrote: > Dear all, > We have a draft with, > Title:A mechanism for synchronization across name servers on zone creation > Abstract: > This memo describes the NEWZONE_NOTIFY opcode for DNS, by which a > primary master server advises a set of slave servers that there is a > zone has been created and that a query should be initiated to > discover the new zone data. > > This draft also specifies a mechanism for the slave servers to > achieve authenticated synchronization of zone data as well as zone > synchronization information with the primary when a zone is created > on the primary. > please find the text at: > http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-dnsext-newzone-notify-00.txt. > Thank you for your attention and sorry for the not so good format. ^_^ > Thank you. > 2010-02-08 > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Cindy Wang > DNS Lab, CNNIC Labs > China INterent Network Information Center (CNNIC) > Phone: 8610-58813074 > Email: wangxin@cnnic.cn > MSN: cindy_wangx@hotmail.com --------------000305030301010802080607 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This draft is not an official working group draft,
I made the mistake of approving the draft by clicking on the wrong link.
I have

This is a valid idea to consider in the working group,
I have asked the editors to resubmit the draft as individual submission,
and ask the working group to adopt the work item.

    Olafur

On 07/02/2010 9:34 PM, Cindy Wang wrote:
Dear all,
 
We have a draft with,
Title:A mechanism for synchronization across name servers on zone creation
Abstract:
This memo describes the NEWZONE_NOTIFY opcode for DNS, by which a 
primary master server advises a set of slave servers that there is a 
zone has been created and that a query should be initiated to 
discover the new zone data.

This draft also specifies a mechanism for the slave servers to 
achieve authenticated synchronization of zone data as well as zone 
synchronization information with the primary when a zone is created 
on the primary.
 
 
Thank you for your attention and sorry for the not so good format. ^_^
 
Thank you.
 
 
2010-02-08
Cindy Wang
DNS Lab, CNNIC Labs
China INterent Network Information Center (CNNIC)
Phone: 8610-58813074

--------------000305030301010802080607-- From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Sun Feb 7 19:34:54 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 227283A6978; Sun, 7 Feb 2010 19:34:54 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.513 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.513 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.087, BAYES_00=-2.599, NO_RELAYS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id foVDdAcsRWuW; Sun, 7 Feb 2010 19:34:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42DAF3A6778; Sun, 7 Feb 2010 19:34:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NeKL7-000EnK-HE for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Mon, 08 Feb 2010 03:31:09 +0000 Received: from [2001:1890:1112:1::20] (helo=mail.ietf.org) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NeKL2-000ElI-8P for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 08 Feb 2010 03:31:04 +0000 Received: by core3.amsl.com (Postfix, from userid 0) id 199293A68F2; Sun, 7 Feb 2010 19:30:01 -0800 (PST) From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org To: i-d-announce@ietf.org Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: [dnsext] I-D Action:draft-ietf-dnsext-newzone-notify-01.txt Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <20100208033002.199293A68F2@core3.amsl.com> Date: Sun, 7 Feb 2010 19:30:01 -0800 (PST) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the DNS Extensions Working Group of the IETF. Title : A mechanism for synchronization across name servers on zone creation Author(s) : C. Wang, et al. Filename : draft-ietf-dnsext-newzone-notify-01.txt Pages : 9 Date : 2010-02-07 This memo describes the NEWZONE_NOTIFY opcode for DNS, by which a primary master server advises a set of slave servers that there is a zone has been created and that a query should be initiated to discover the new zone data. This draft also specifies a mechanism for the slave servers to achieve authenticated synchronization of zone data as well as zone synchronization information with the primary when a zone is created on the primary. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-dnsext-newzone-notify-01.txt Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-dnsext-newzone-notify-01.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2010-02-07191652.I-D@ietf.org> --NextPart-- From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Sun Feb 7 22:02:49 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B5D83A72B1; Sun, 7 Feb 2010 22:02:49 -0800 (PST) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Duplicate header field: "Message-ID" X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 3.831 X-Spam-Level: *** X-Spam-Status: No, score=3.831 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-2.216, BAYES_05=-1.11, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_51=0.6, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER=0.803, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CuEBBf6AF81f; Sun, 7 Feb 2010 22:02:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24C2E3A72AE; Sun, 7 Feb 2010 22:02:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NeMcZ-0002rc-RN for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Mon, 08 Feb 2010 05:57:19 +0000 Received: from [159.226.7.146] (helo=cnnic.cn) by psg.com with smtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NeMcO-0002qV-HB for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 08 Feb 2010 05:57:09 +0000 Received: (eyou send program); Mon, 08 Feb 2010 13:57:06 +0800 Message-ID: <465608626.04443@cnnic.cn> X-EYOUMAIL-SMTPAUTH: wangxin@cnnic.cn Received: from unknown (HELO cindy) (127.0.0.1) by 127.0.0.1 with SMTP; Mon, 08 Feb 2010 13:57:06 +0800 Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2010 13:57:09 +0800 From: "Cindy Wang" To: "namedroppers" References: <201002081034143280701@cnnic.cn> Subject: [dnsext] Fw: a new draft on zone creation Message-ID: <201002081357092810234@cnnic.cn> X-mailer: Foxmail 6, 15, 201, 22 [cn] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====003_Dragon406201006280_=====" Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. 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VCBjb2xvcj0jODA4MDgwPk1TTjogPC9GT05UPjxGT05UIA0KY29sb3I9IzgwODA4MD5jaW5keV93 YW5neEBob3RtYWlsLmNvbTwvRk9OVD48L0RJVj48L0RJVj48L0RJVj48L0ZPTlQ+PC9ESVY+PC9G T05UPjwvRk9OVD48L0RJVj48L0ZPTlQ+PC9CT0RZPjwvSFRNTD4NCg== --=====003_Dragon406201006280_=====-- From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Feb 8 03:14:21 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 878783A7365; Mon, 8 Feb 2010 03:14:21 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lIVzuRzhv44v; Mon, 8 Feb 2010 03:14:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 511F93A735F; Mon, 8 Feb 2010 03:14:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NeRU4-0006vB-Uq for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Mon, 08 Feb 2010 11:08:52 +0000 Received: from [2001:4900:1:392:213:20ff:fe1b:3bfe] (helo=monster.hopcount.ca) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NeRTz-0006sQ-UX for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 08 Feb 2010 11:08:48 +0000 Received: from [199.212.90.23] (helo=dh23.r2.owls.hopcount.ca) by monster.hopcount.ca with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES128-SHA:128) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NeRW2-0007mK-Cd; Mon, 08 Feb 2010 11:10:55 +0000 Subject: Re: [dnsext] Fw: a new draft on zone creation Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Joe Abley In-Reply-To: <465608626.04443@cnnic.cn> Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2010 06:08:43 -0500 Cc: "namedroppers" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <65FDFD95-661F-4954-9347-D8B90A968390@hopcount.ca> References: <201002081034143280701@cnnic.cn> <465608626.04443@cnnic.cn> To: Cindy Wang X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 199.212.90.23 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: jabley@hopcount.ca X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on monster.hopcount.ca); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: Hi Cindy, On 2010-02-08, at 00:57, Cindy Wang wrote: > Dear all, > The draft is moved to: > http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-wang-dnsext-newzone-notify-00.txt > =20 > Sorry for the mess ^_^ Thank you for writing up this idea. A couple of things occurred to me as I read your text: 1. It seems like it would be useful to be able to specify additional = data along with the simple message "you may pull new zone Z from master = M". For example, it might be of value to specify zone-specific metadata = like query/transfer ACLs, or server-specific metadata like TSIG keys to = be used. 2. You don't specify a corresponding mechanism to drop a zone, or to = modify zone or server metadata. See also = draft-ietf-dnsop-name-server-management-reqs. 3. It seems like it would be an advantage to be able to specify more = than one zone in a single message. 4. It seems like there are possible use-cases for the kind of = prerequiste handling described in RFC 2136, e.g. add zone A iff you have = already added zone B. 5. The workflow described in section 5.1 seems to make use of = address-based ACLs. Presumably TSIG would be another option? 6. The proposal seems to require the server originating the = NEWZONE_NOTIFY to retain state per message which is cleared upon an apex = IN/NS query or an AXFR from the target server. These seem like poor = mechanisms for an acknowledgement, since there are other reasons that a = remote server might send such queries.=20 7. It seems like this general approach has significant overlap with DNS = UPDATE (RFC 2136), although it is focussed on provisioning zones rather = than zone contents. If an in-band approach to zone provisioning is = desirable, I wonder whether it might be simpler to map the data models = onto a namespace (e.g. a new class, or a specified zone in an existing = class) and use DNS UPDATE to manage it. This has echoes of the ISC/Vixie = metazone concept. Joe= From dmanet@ietf.org Mon Feb 8 04:14:16 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66E753A71BC for ; Mon, 8 Feb 2010 04:14:15 -0800 (PST) X-Quarantine-ID: <7sLBjG8nqUnJ> X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char C2 hex): From: Approved VIAGRA\302\256 Store ; Mon, 8 Feb 2010 04:14:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from 72-161-143-103.dyn.centurytel.net (72-161-143-103.dyn.centurytel.net [72.161.143.103]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id B8AB83A707F for ; Mon, 8 Feb 2010 04:14:01 -0800 (PST) From: Approved VIAGRA® Store Subject: You have a new personal message To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20100208121405.B8AB83A707F@core3.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2010 04:14:01 -0800 (PST)
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From dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Mon Feb 8 15:01:54 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA41128C0E8 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 2010 15:01:54 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -46.3 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-46.3 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_DYNAMIC_DHCP=1.398, HELO_EQ_DSL=1.129, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_16=1.526, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_02=0.383, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_2=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_FROM_DRUGS=1.666, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_RED=0.001, URI_HEX=0.368, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id b0Mw9NcXShEm for ; Mon, 8 Feb 2010 15:01:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from adsl-191.109.242.135.tellas.gr (adsl-78.79.107.49.tellas.gr [79.107.49.78]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F380F28C107 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 2010 15:01:50 -0800 (PST) From: "Pfizer (tm) VIAGRA (c)" To: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: Personal dnsext-archive 77% Off MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20100208230152.F380F28C107@core3.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2010 15:01:50 -0800 (PST) User dnsext-archive Newsletter
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From dnsext-archive@ietf.org Mon Feb 8 18:13:48 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1176928C1B5 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 2010 18:13:48 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -29.883 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-29.883 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_95=3, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR=2.426, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_24=1.552, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_02=0.383, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, NUMERIC_HTTP_ADDR=0.001, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_FROM_DRUGS=1.666, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_SBL=20, URI_HEX=0.368, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YGhEJuPWxxRc for ; Mon, 8 Feb 2010 18:13:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from host224.201-252-216.telecom.net.ar (host224.201-252-216.telecom.net.ar [201.252.216.224]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3E4C28B56A for ; Mon, 8 Feb 2010 18:13:42 -0800 (PST) From: "VIAGRA from Pfizer" To: dnsext-archive@ietf.org Subject: dnsext-archive Winter -80% Deals Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <20100209021342.D3E4C28B56A@core3.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 8 Feb 2010 18:13:42 -0800 (PST) December 2009
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From dmailer.ok@ietf.org Tue Feb 9 00:05:49 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8B683A6C92 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 00:05:49 -0800 (PST) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char C2 hex): From: Approved VIAGRA\302\256 Store ; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 00:05:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from alerj.rj.gov.br (unknown [190.3.121.127]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id D9DBB3A6842 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 00:05:36 -0800 (PST) From: Approved VIAGRA® Store Subject: Special Code for 73% for dnsext-archive@ietf.org To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20100209080540.D9DBB3A6842@core3.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 00:05:36 -0800 (PST)
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------=_NextPart_000_0007_01CAA9DA.6063D340-- From dnsop-bounces@ietf.org Tue Feb 9 14:50:10 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dnsext-archive@ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E98CA3A762F for ; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 14:50:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: The results of your email commands From: dnsop-bounces@ietf.org To: dnsext-archive@ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0188268904==" Message-ID: Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2010 14:50:09 -0800 Precedence: bulk X-BeenThere: dnsop@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 List-Id: IETF DNSOP WG mailing list X-List-Administrivia: yes Sender: dnsop-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: dnsop-bounces@ietf.org --===============0188268904== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The results of your email command are provided below. Attached is your original message. - Results: Ignoring non-text/plain MIME parts - Done. --===============0188268904== Content-Type: message/rfc822 MIME-Version: 1.0 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dnsop-request@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: dnsop-request@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2D693A74AC; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 14:50:07 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -17.973 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-17.973 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_FAKE_RCVD_LINE_B=5.777, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HELO_DYNAMIC_HCC=4.295, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2=4.395, HELO_EQ_BR=0.955, HELO_EQ_DSL=1.129, HELO_EQ_TELESP=1.245, HOST_EQ_BR=1.295, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_RECV_SPAM_DOMN02=1.666, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.931, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rA5N9JzPcPZL; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 14:50:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from 200-171-21-190.dsl.telesp.net.br (200-171-21-190.dsl.telesp.net.br [200.171.21.190]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 867CA3A728D; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 14:50:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from 200.171.21.190 by smtp.ourladyofmenopause.com; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 20:51:11 -0300 Message-ID: <000d01caa9da$6063d340$6400a8c0@maceratingy5> From: dnsext-archive@ietf.org To: Subject: Russian queens are waiting. Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 20:51:11 -0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0007_01CAA9DA.6063D340" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE 6.00.2800.1158 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01CAA9DA.6063D340 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Find a perfect Russian wife. Click Here ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01CAA9DA.6063D340 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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------=_NextPart_000_0007_01CAA9DA.6063D340-- --===============0188268904==-- From diffserv-interest-bounces@ietf.org Tue Feb 9 14:50:11 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dnsext-archive@ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE4C83A7630 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 14:50:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: The results of your email commands From: diffserv-interest-bounces@ietf.org To: dnsext-archive@ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0997351020==" Message-ID: Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2010 14:50:09 -0800 Precedence: bulk X-BeenThere: diffserv-interest@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 List-Id: Differentiated services general discussion X-List-Administrivia: yes Sender: diffserv-interest-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: diffserv-interest-bounces@ietf.org --===============0997351020== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The results of your email command are provided below. Attached is your original message. - Results: Ignoring non-text/plain MIME parts - Done. --===============0997351020== Content-Type: message/rfc822 MIME-Version: 1.0 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diffserv-interest-request@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: diffserv-interest-request@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2D693A74AC; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 14:50:07 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -17.973 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-17.973 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_FAKE_RCVD_LINE_B=5.777, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HELO_DYNAMIC_HCC=4.295, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2=4.395, HELO_EQ_BR=0.955, HELO_EQ_DSL=1.129, HELO_EQ_TELESP=1.245, HOST_EQ_BR=1.295, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_RECV_SPAM_DOMN02=1.666, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.931, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rA5N9JzPcPZL; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 14:50:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from 200-171-21-190.dsl.telesp.net.br (200-171-21-190.dsl.telesp.net.br [200.171.21.190]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 867CA3A728D; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 14:50:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from 200.171.21.190 by smtp.ourladyofmenopause.com; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 20:51:11 -0300 Message-ID: <000d01caa9da$6063d340$6400a8c0@maceratingy5> From: dnsext-archive@ietf.org To: Subject: Russian queens are waiting. Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 20:51:11 -0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0007_01CAA9DA.6063D340" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE 6.00.2800.1158 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01CAA9DA.6063D340 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Find a perfect Russian wife. Click Here ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01CAA9DA.6063D340 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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------=_NextPart_000_0007_01CAA9DA.6063D340-- From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Feb 9 20:03:47 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91D9F3A74EE; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 20:03:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.192 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.192 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.097, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HABEAS_ACCREDITED_SOI=-4.3, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RCVD_IN_BSP_TRUSTED=-4.3, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Z7KoPzrmZrdr; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 20:03:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F02A3A7102; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 20:03:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nf3fv-000Nla-3A for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 03:55:39 +0000 Received: from [64.57.183.53] (helo=gal.iecc.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nf3fo-000NlI-DA for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 03:55:32 +0000 Received: (qmail 3206 invoked from network); 10 Feb 2010 03:55:29 -0000 Received: from mail1.iecc.com (64.57.183.56) by mail1.iecc.com with QMQP; 10 Feb 2010 03:55:29 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=k1002; olt=johnl@user.iecc.com; bh=Mln7K/tUjZ0ta+mwZE96xx1VpQ/AE6rsUhos6XfJaW0=; b=1jpjfn/zL8iI7Rs+aMg2gHZ8rnOXf8zPi/tRLhO3a06rqsPF1wERPP8VCuZ+JSRTHC1K5hGZCDB0QRR6tDaIY0kaiZXs+rjaUXQSpwQdWGwK6rXUu2ho0xHJkNkNZBC8LMP346w0E3tpHeZ1s4HDLaulmqP2iC8glLQbpQ5CqGk= Date: 10 Feb 2010 03:55:28 -0000 Message-ID: <20100210035528.85177.qmail@simone.iecc.com> From: John Levine To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: [dnsext] Help me explain CNAMEs Organization: X-Headerized: yes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: I've been having an argument about CNAMEs with a friend who, I would think, is quite familiar with the operations of the DNS. But at least one of us is seriously confused about CNAMEs. Are the answers to questions like these written down clearly anywhere? A) With these DNS records: a.b CNAME c.d c.d A 1.2.3.4 z.c.d A 2.3.4.5 What does an A query for z.a.b return? I know it's NXDOMAIN, but he insists it should be 2.3.4.5. The algorithm in RFC 1034 section 4.3.2 is reasonably clear once you have all your terminology straight, but I know plenty of people who haven't been able to find it. (Perhaps he has CNAME confused with DNAME, but I think it's just not getting what CNAME does.) B) With these DNS records: a.b CNAME c.d z.a.b A 3.4.5.6 c.d A 1.2.3.4 z.c.d A 2.3.4.5 What does an A query for z.a.b return? My understanding is that the answer might be 3.4.5.6 or might be nothing, depending on whether a.b is the apex of a zone and maybe other stuff, so don't do that. But I can't find a clear explanation in RFC 1034 or 2181 or anywhere else. Is there a reference I've missed? Or is this still poorly documented folklore? R's, John From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Feb 9 20:38:41 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 909B93A7513; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 20:38:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.948 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.948 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.650, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_UK=1.749, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 45a8UfrBXSQh; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 20:38:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6A273A6DBE; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 20:38:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nf4I2-0001VR-6d for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 04:35:02 +0000 Received: from [213.248.199.23] (helo=mx3.nominet.org.uk) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nf4Hx-0001Un-KW; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 04:34:57 +0000 DomainKey-Signature: s=main.dk.nominet.selector; d=nominet.org.uk; c=nofws; q=dns; h=X-IronPort-AV:Received:In-Reply-To:References:To:Cc: Subject:MIME-Version:X-Mailer:Message-ID:From:Date: X-MIMETrack:Content-Type; b=SWPPH35hqwCFcSCwhapqyscDGgwsFto+ltnD7DuwshRWhdv0OnFcqrQk EiSON33Kc6+OqhaZJ/f9kE6IU1fpCtLJQVXyQBJVRmRaAph9x4m5wr/e5 Zb8WBT/M2l8hD0g; DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nominet.org.uk; i=roy@nominet.org.uk; q=dns/txt; s=main.dkim.nominet.selector; t=1265776497; x=1297312497; h=from:sender:reply-to:subject:date:message-id:to:cc: mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:content-id: content-description:resent-date:resent-from:resent-sender: resent-to:resent-cc:resent-message-id:in-reply-to: references:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe: list-subscribe:list-post:list-owner:list-archive; z=From:=20"Roy=20Arends"=20|Subject: =20Re:=20[dnsext]=20Help=20me=20explain=20CNAMEs|Date:=20 Tue,=209=20Feb=202010=2023:34:54=20-0500|Message-ID:=20|To:=20John=20Levine=20 |Cc:=20namedroppers@ops.ietf.org,=0D=0A=09owner-namedropp ers@ops.ietf.org|MIME-Version:=201.0|In-Reply-To:=20<2010 0210035528.85177.qmail@simone.iecc.com>|References:=20<20 100210035528.85177.qmail@simone.iecc.com>; bh=RHpHMSD6dKGsuYuxDagFtQ6gvJl5wSpS7LYY5i7hWtQ=; b=awZvA2kMPHrUiZXlXghrNrCCBRZwgtOjLyVnnBgEjq4v5R/rpAPUVuZ7 hYiruEKOF4xUAAAbydNO9gINGSFzydqcI8hDeXpJKMwdXZ/E6GWM7cJgH 0BwJiuMxzMXlDhP; X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.49,440,1262563200"; d="scan'208";a="21597141" Received: from notes1.nominet.org.uk ([213.248.197.128]) by mx3.nominet.org.uk with ESMTP; 10 Feb 2010 04:34:55 +0000 In-Reply-To: <20100210035528.85177.qmail@simone.iecc.com> References: <20100210035528.85177.qmail@simone.iecc.com> To: John Levine Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org, owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] Help me explain CNAMEs MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Build V85_M2_08202008 August 20, 2008 Message-ID: From: "Roy Arends" Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 23:34:54 -0500 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on notes1/Nominet(Release 7.0.1FP1 | May 25, 2006) at 10/02/2010 04:34:55 AM, Serialize complete at 10/02/2010 04:34:55 AM Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_alternative 00192B33052576C6_=" Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: This is a multipart message in MIME format. --=_alternative 00192B33052576C6_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" John Levine wrote on 02/09/2010 10:55:28 PM: > I've been having an argument about CNAMEs with a friend who, I would > think, is quite familiar with the operations of the DNS. But at least > one of us is seriously confused about CNAMEs. > > Are the answers to questions like these written down clearly anywhere? Probably. > A) With these DNS records: > > a.b CNAME c.d > > c.d A 1.2.3.4 > z.c.d A 2.3.4.5 > > What does an A query for z.a.b return? I know it's NXDOMAIN, but he > insists it should be 2.3.4.5. >From what you've written above, a resolver should return NXDOMAIN. It should not return 'z.c.d A 2.3.4.5'. > The algorithm in RFC 1034 section 4.3.2 > is reasonably clear once you have all your terminology straight, but I > know plenty of people who haven't been able to find it. (Perhaps he > has CNAME confused with DNAME, but I think it's just not getting what > CNAME does.) > > B) With these DNS records: > > a.b CNAME c.d > z.a.b A 3.4.5.6 > > c.d A 1.2.3.4 > z.c.d A 2.3.4.5 > > What does an A query for z.a.b return? My understanding is that the > answer might be 3.4.5.6 or might be nothing, depending on whether a.b > is the apex of a zone and maybe other stuff, so don't do that. a.b CNAME can't be the apex of a zone, as CNAME can't co-exist with other data, like SOA and NS records. The answer is 'z.a.b A 3.4.5.6', and not 'might be nothing, depending....' > But I > can't find a clear explanation in RFC 1034 or 2181 or anywhere else. > > Is there a reference I've missed? Or is this still poorly documented > folklore? I think 1034 3.6.2 and 4.3.2 are pretty clear on this. Maybe your friend can elaborate how he got to his answers. Hope this helps, Roy --=_alternative 00192B33052576C6_= Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" John Levine wrote on 02/09/2010 10:55:28 PM:

> I've been having an argument about CNAMEs with a friend who, I would
> think, is quite familiar with the operations of the DNS.  But at least
> one of us is seriously confused about CNAMEs.
>
> Are the answers to questions like these written down clearly anywhere?

Probably.

> A) With these DNS records:
>
> a.b   CNAME c.d
>
> c.d   A     1.2.3.4
> z.c.d A     2.3.4.5
>
> What does an A query for z.a.b return?  I know it's NXDOMAIN, but he
> insists it should be 2.3.4.5.

From what you've written above, a resolver should return NXDOMAIN. It should not return 'z.c.d A 2.3.4.5'.

> The algorithm in RFC 1034 section 4.3.2
> is reasonably clear once you have all your terminology straight, but I
> know plenty of people who haven't been able to find it.  (Perhaps he
> has CNAME confused with DNAME, but I think it's just not getting what
> CNAME does.)
>
> B) With these DNS records:
>
> a.b   CNAME c.d
> z.a.b A     3.4.5.6
>
> c.d   A     1.2.3.4
> z.c.d A     2.3.4.5
>
> What does an A query for z.a.b return?  My understanding is that the
> answer might be 3.4.5.6 or might be nothing, depending on whether a.b
> is the apex of a zone and maybe other stuff, so don't do that.

a.b CNAME can't be the apex of a zone, as CNAME can't co-exist with other data, like SOA and NS records.

The answer is 'z.a.b A 3.4.5.6', and not 'might be nothing, depending....'

> But I
> can't find a clear explanation in RFC 1034 or 2181 or anywhere else.
>
> Is there a reference I've missed?  Or is this still poorly documented
> folklore?
I think 1034 3.6.2 and 4.3.2 are pretty clear on this. Maybe your friend can elaborate how he got to his answers.

Hope this helps,

Roy
--=_alternative 00192B33052576C6_=-- From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Feb 9 20:50:27 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1AE6A3A7510; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 20:50:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1DZuwHt7Fj34; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 20:50:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0700E3A750F; Tue, 9 Feb 2010 20:50:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nf4US-00037L-QE for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 04:47:52 +0000 Received: from [2001:4f8:3:bb::5] (helo=farside.isc.org) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nf4UP-00036v-0h for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 04:47:49 +0000 Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (drugs.dv.isc.org [IPv6:2001:470:1f00:820:214:22ff:fed9:fbdc]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "drugs.dv.isc.org", Issuer "ISC CA" (not verified)) by farside.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6382E601C; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 04:47:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marka@isc.org) Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by drugs.dv.isc.org (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o1A4li56070921; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 15:47:45 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from marka@drugs.dv.isc.org) Message-Id: <201002100447.o1A4li56070921@drugs.dv.isc.org> To: John Levine Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org From: Mark Andrews References: <20100210035528.85177.qmail@simone.iecc.com> Subject: Re: [dnsext] Help me explain CNAMEs In-reply-to: Your message of "10 Feb 2010 03:55:28 -0000." <20100210035528.85177.qmail@simone.iecc.com> Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 15:47:44 +1100 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: In message <20100210035528.85177.qmail@simone.iecc.com>, John Levine writes: > I've been having an argument about CNAMEs with a friend who, I would > think, is quite familiar with the operations of the DNS. But at least > one of us is seriously confused about CNAMEs. > > Are the answers to questions like these written down clearly anywhere? > > A) With these DNS records: > > a.b CNAME c.d > > c.d A 1.2.3.4 > z.c.d A 2.3.4.5 > > What does an A query for z.a.b return? I know it's NXDOMAIN, but he > insists it should be 2.3.4.5. He is wrong. If it was "a.b DNAME c.d" then it would be 2.3.4.5. > The algorithm in RFC 1034 section 4.3.2 > is reasonably clear once you have all your terminology straight, but I > know plenty of people who haven't been able to find it. (Perhaps he > has CNAME confused with DNAME, but I think it's just not getting what > CNAME does.) Assuming the above in is the root then, 2 matches, 3(a) doesn't match, 3(b) doesn't match, 3(c) matches and there is not "*" label, we have not followed a CNAME though there is a CNAME at the node. so we just return name error (NXDOMAIN). > B) With these DNS records: > > a.b CNAME c.d > z.a.b A 3.4.5.6 > > c.d A 1.2.3.4 > z.c.d A 2.3.4.5 > > What does an A query for z.a.b return? My understanding is that the > answer might be 3.4.5.6 or might be nothing, depending on whether a.b > is the apex of a zone and maybe other stuff, so don't do that. But I > can't find a clear explanation in RFC 1034 or 2181 or anywhere else. 3.4.5.6 Work though RFC 1034 section 4.3.2. Lets assume the above is all in the root zone so you have a match at 2. 3(a) is a match as z.a.b exist. There is no CNAME at z.a.b so the second paragraph does not apply and you apply the third paragraph and add the A record to the response and go to set 6. > Is there a reference I've missed? Or is this still poorly documented > folklore? > > R's, > John > -- Mark Andrews, ISC 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: marka@isc.org From dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Wed Feb 10 04:52:03 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EED593A74C3 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 04:52:03 -0800 (PST) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char C2 hex): From: Approved VIAGRA\302\256 Store ; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 04:51:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from 241-23.108.dedicado.com.uy (241-23.108.dedicado.com.uy [190.108.23.241]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id E382C3A7375 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 04:51:55 -0800 (PST) From: Approved VIAGRA® Store Subject: You have a new personal message To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20100210125155.E382C3A7375@core3.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 04:51:55 -0800 (PST)
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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Feb 10 05:27:45 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB2213A756E; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 05:27:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.55 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_EQ_NL=0.55, HELO_MISMATCH_NL=1.448, J_CHICKENPOX_82=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4jvOGwyQ1lhu; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 05:27:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5866828C112; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 05:27:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NfCWA-000OEO-K8 for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 13:22:10 +0000 Received: from [85.17.178.138] (helo=rotring.dds.nl) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NfCW7-000ODu-L4 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 13:22:07 +0000 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rotring.dds.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 585765807C for ; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 14:22:03 +0100 (CET) Received: from [192.168.254.2] (195-241-9-117.adsl.dds.nl [195.241.9.117]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by rotring.dds.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16B3258011 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 14:21:51 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <4B72B2EE.8090105@nlnetlabs.nl> Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 14:21:50 +0100 From: "W.C.A. Wijngaards" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.9.1.7) Gecko/20100120 Fedora/3.0.1-1.fc11 Thunderbird/3.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: [dnsext] CDN RR Type for content distribution X-Enigmail-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.95.2 at rotring X-Virus-Status: Clean Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hi, Perhaps this idea, which uses DNS to publish a directory (but annotated for better latency), that puts intelligence towards the edge, is of use. Some principles: * privacy respect: final resolver makes choice. This is the resolver that the (CDN unaware) client sent its query to (and thus gives its IP) today. (and this resolver decides to use the CDN type). * can be signed with DNSSEC. No-one makes your traffic-balanced CDN go the wrong way by spoofing. * current caches work (and current authority servers and dnssec signers work). Stubs could become smarter to make their own choices (mobility). * does not look anything like access-control. * can be used anywhere for any purpose. * use every bit. The new CDN RR type has the following in the rdata: * one octet priority field (priority concept like SRV, MX). * Then follow a number of sections: lists of servers and then subnets that should use them, then more servers and subnets. one octet: number of entries in section, upper bits type of section 0:A 1:AAAA 2:cidr 3:extended. There can be 63 entries. length 0 is reserved(do not create, ignore remainder of RR if encountered) for types 0,1,2. then the entries, A are 4 octets each. AAAA 16 octets each, those are the destination servers. The cidr section contains a number of CIDR notation networks: * one octet: cidr length. High bit flags IPv6. value=0x7F encodes ipv6 /128 length. * then a number of octets to encode the prefix ((len+7)/8 octets). Thus a /16 takes three octets and a /24 four octets. Section type 3 is followed by one-octet extended-type, for up to 63 elements of that type: client ccTLD codes, AS or GPS ranges... Another one-byte 'octet-length of this section' makes the extended types future proof. It could also hold a domain name as a redirection (and flag if that redirection should query type CDN again). * extended type 00 is reserved for even-more-extended section types. * type 01: list of 2-octet ccTLD labels to match whole countries. * type 02: state in country by 3-octet values. Or whatever you need. In a 1000 octet rdata, you can easily have (2 ipv4 servers + 10 /24s) = 46 octets, and then twenty more of those. And the last one can contain 20 /8s as a fallback, or servers per continent to avoid intercontinental ping. Since the first match counts, specific ones have to be first. needs text in case no subnet matches. /0 subnet useful. use upper 4 bits of priority octet for flags. high-prio:try first. same-prio:randomize which first. flag0:contact securely (the CDN requests clients to make secure protocol connections right away to make secure connections respond fast). (and while this secure connection establishment is underway, the client can query SSHFP or TLSFP or whatnot to validate the connection with, freezing up when that starts to take too long to come back (to stop downgrade attacks: timeout and tryagain button). xFP is another draft, of course). text for serving CDN unaware clients, no signatures for them. An idea which is different from yours. :-) It could still be bad, but in different ways I presume. Since there are no requirements for the solution, I guess this fits it just as well. Best regards, Wouter -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAktysu4ACgkQkDLqNwOhpPjDzQCgsylyuWIdw99tIA0w1eYQDh05 MQAAn098eXKDbHI9kmINPZLdKroEmjZm =txWj -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Feb 10 07:02:51 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BCEB3A71FA; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 07:02:51 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.854 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.854 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.254, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_INFO=1.448, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7cSPpvjHxpOh; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 07:02:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EE4128C1F1; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 07:02:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NfE1h-000EV8-QA for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 14:58:49 +0000 Received: from [208.86.224.201] (helo=mail.yitter.info) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:CAMELLIA256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NfE1e-000EUe-3O for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 14:58:46 +0000 Received: from crankycanuck.ca (69-196-144-230.dsl.teksavvy.com [69.196.144.230]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.yitter.info (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 28FF31ECB4E8 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 14:58:43 +0000 (UTC) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 09:58:36 -0500 From: Andrew Sullivan To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: [dnsext] Reminder: interim WG meeting 2010-02-16 Message-ID: <20100210145836.GA5187@shinkuro.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: Dear colleagues, This serves as a reminder that we have scheduled an interim meeting of the WG, by virtual means, on 2010-02-16 at 15:00 UTC. The purpose of the meeting is to try to come to some conclusions about the topic of name redirection. We will try to cover all the items in the "Partial solution space" outline in the meeting announcement. It can be found at http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/dnsext/trac/wiki. At the moment, there are two drafts in this space for the WG to consider: draft-yao-dnsext-bname-01.txt proposes a specific approach. draft-yao-dnsext-identical-resolution-00.txt is one problem statement. If other drafts were submitted before the deadline, the Chairs are unaware of them. Please bring them to our attention. We would appreciate participants coming to the meeting with some thoughts about whether there is in fact a problem to solve and what changes might be acceptable and unacceptable. It is also terribly important that each participant have a clear and committed idea of how much work he or she personally is willing to do on this topic (and be willing to make that commitment to the WG). We'll only have an hour, so to ensure we have a good basis for discussion we'd appreciate it if anyone having a position statement post it to the list in advance, so that people can read it and understand it. Please post it with the Subject "Position statement of $NAME on DNS name equivalence", and please don't use another thread in which to post (i.e. send a fresh message to namedroppers, and don't reply to some other message). If you have already posted a position, it'd be great if you could post a new message with a link to the archive, using the Subject: convention above. We will post the dial-in information on the wiki later today. Thanks, Andrew and Olafur -- Andrew Sullivan ajs@shinkuro.com Shinkuro, Inc. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Feb 10 08:51:11 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0EB9E28C13A; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 08:51:11 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.427 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.427 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.524, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, FRT_MEETING=2.697, GB_I_INVITATION=-2, HELO_MISMATCH_INFO=1.448, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 49mGHKdm6vMY; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 08:51:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3875C28C11D; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 08:51:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NfFgr-0006LB-K5 for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 16:45:25 +0000 Received: from [208.86.224.201] (helo=mail.yitter.info) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:CAMELLIA256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NfFgo-0006KZ-WF for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 16:45:23 +0000 Received: from crankycanuck.ca (69-196-144-230.dsl.teksavvy.com [69.196.144.230]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.yitter.info (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 6397D1ECB4E8 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 16:45:21 +0000 (UTC) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 11:45:19 -0500 From: Andrew Sullivan To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: [dnsext] [ogud@ogud.com: Fwd: Fwd: (Forward to attendees) Meeting invitation: DNSEXT WG Virtual Meeting] Message-ID: <20100210164518.GC5187@shinkuro.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="rwEMma7ioTxnRzrJ" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: --rwEMma7ioTxnRzrJ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Dear colleagues, Attached, please find the details for joining the DNSEXT virtual meeting on 2010-02-16. I'll also post this to the WG wiki. Best regards, Andrew -- Andrew Sullivan ajs@shinkuro.com Shinkuro, Inc. --rwEMma7ioTxnRzrJ Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from zinfandel.tools.ietf.org ([64.170.98.42] verified) by execdsl.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.2.10) with ESMTP-TLS id 18416677 for ajs@shinkuro.com; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 08:17:42 -0700 Received-SPF: softfail receiver=execdsl.com; client-ip=64.170.98.42; envelope-from=ogud@ogud.com Received: from stora.ogud.com ([66.92.146.20]) by zinfandel.tools.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1NfEJt-0000aj-UR for dnsext-chairs@tools.ietf.org; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 07:17:40 -0800 Received: from [IPv6:::1] (nyttbox.md.ogud.com [10.20.30.4]) by stora.ogud.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o1AFHZjF038534 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 10:17:35 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from ogud@ogud.com) Message-ID: <4B72CE0D.3000201@ogud.com> Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 10:17:33 -0500 From: Olafur Gudmundsson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.1; en-GB; rv:1.9.1.7) Gecko/20100111 Thunderbird/3.0.1 To: dnsext-chairs@tools.ietf.org X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.67 on 10.20.30.4 X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 66.92.146.20 X-SA-Exim-Rcpt-To: dnsext-chairs@tools.ietf.org X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: ogud@ogud.com X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.0 (2010-01-18) on zinfandel.tools.ietf.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.4 required=3.0 tests=BAYES_00,GREYLIST_ISWHITE, SPF_PASS autolearn=no version=3.3.0 Subject: Fwd: Fwd: (Forward to attendees) Meeting invitation: DNSEXT WG Virtual Meeting X-SA-Exim-Version: 4.2.1 (built Sat, 01 Aug 2009 12:09:26 +0000) X-SA-Exim-Scanned: Yes (on zinfandel.tools.ietf.org) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Fwd: (Forward to attendees) Meeting invitation: DNSEXT WG Virtual Meeting Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 15:23:42 -0800 From: Alexa Morris To: Olafur Gudmundsson Begin forwarded message: > *From: *IETF Secretariat > > *Date: *January 12, 2010 3:16:36 PM PST > *To: *amorris@amsl.com > *Subject: **(Forward to attendees) Meeting invitation: DNSEXT WG > Virtual Meeting* > *Reply-To: *amorris@amsl.com > > **** You can forward this email invitation to attendees **** > > Hello , > > IETF Secretariat invites you to attend this online meeting. > > Topic: DNSEXT WG Virtual Meeting > Date: Tuesday, February 16, 2010 > Time: 10:00 am, Eastern Standard Time (New York, GMT-05:00) > Meeting Number: 965 074 219 > Meeting Password: dnsext > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > To join the online meeting (Now from iPhones too!) > ------------------------------------------------------- > 1. Go to > https://workgreen.webex.com/workgreen/j.php?ED=131304617&UID=0&PW=NNjQ4NGE3NDZj&RT=MiMxMQ%3D%3D > > > 2. Enter your name and email address. > 3. Enter the meeting password: dnsext > 4. Click "Join Now". > > To view in other time zones or languages, please click the link: > https://workgreen.webex.com/workgreen/j.php?ED=131304617&UID=0&PW=NNjQ4NGE3NDZj&ORT=MiMxMQ%3D%3D > > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > To join the audio conference only > ------------------------------------------------------- > To receive a call back, provide your phone number when you join the > meeting, or call the number below and enter the access code. > Call-in toll number (US/Canada): 1-408-792-6300 > Global call-in numbers: > https://workgreen.webex.com/workgreen/globalcallin.php?serviceType=MC&ED=131304617& > ;tollFree=0 > > > > Access code:965 074 219 > > ------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance > ------------------------------------------------------- > 1. Go to https://workgreen.webex.com/workgreen/mc > 2. On the left navigation bar, click "Support". > > You can contact me at: > amorris@amsl.com > 1-510-492-4081 > > To add this meeting to your calendar program (for example Microsoft > Outlook), click this link: > https://workgreen.webex.com/workgreen/j.php?ED=131304617&UID=0&ICS=MI&LD=1&RD=2&ST=1&SHA2=FW1o-o87MNSAwJ0tQD06u3ugO1UbXUYzUY0njk6tr3w=&RT=MiMxMQ%3D%3D > > * > The playback of UCF (Universal Communications Format) rich media files > requires appropriate players. To view this type of rich media files in > the meeting, please check whether you have the players installed on > your computer by going to > https://workgreen.webex.com/workgreen/systemdiagnosis.php > > Sign up for a free trial of WebEx > http://www.webex.com/go/mcemfreetrial > > http://www.webex.com > > > > IMPORTANT NOTICE: This WebEx service includes a feature that allows > audio and any documents and other materials exchanged or viewed during > the session to be recorded. By joining this session, you automatically > consent to such recordings. If you do not consent to the recording, do > not join the session. > * * * * ----------- Alexa Morris / Executive Director / IETF 48377 Fremont Blvd., Suite 117, Fremont, CA 94538 Phone: +1.510.492.4089 / Fax: +1.510.492.4001 Email: amorris@amsl.com Managed by Association Management Solutions (AMS) Forum Management, Me eting and Event Planning www.amsl.com * * * --rwEMma7ioTxnRzrJ-- From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Feb 10 08:53:04 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04C833A776F; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 08:53:04 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.266 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.266 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.771, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Y+j4bTMJzLmH; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 08:53:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 319843A776C; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 08:53:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NfFlt-0007Bc-Rb for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 16:50:37 +0000 Received: from [192.245.12.227] (helo=balder-227.proper.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NfFlq-0007AO-Qb for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 16:50:35 +0000 Received: from [192.168.1.70] (75-101-30-90.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net [75.101.30.90]) (authenticated bits=0) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id o1AGoDMx046598 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 10 Feb 2010 09:50:14 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from paul.hoffman@vpnc.org) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20100210035528.85177.qmail@simone.iecc.com> References: <20100210035528.85177.qmail@simone.iecc.com> Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 08:50:12 -0800 To: John Levine , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org From: Paul Hoffman Subject: Re: [dnsext] Help me explain CNAMEs Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: At 3:55 AM +0000 2/10/10, John Levine wrote: >I've been having an argument about CNAMEs with a friend who, I would >think, is quite familiar with the operations of the DNS. But at least >one of us is seriously confused about CNAMEs. > >Are the answers to questions like these written down clearly anywhere? Unless someone has better answers than Roy and Mark, I would give that a "no". Using "RFC 1034" and "clearly" and "CNAME" in the same sentence has proven to be wrong. --Paul Hoffman, Director --VPN Consortium From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Feb 10 09:08:40 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F9E43A7778; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 09:08:40 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, GB_I_INVITATION=-2] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AzMiyiZNOi18; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 09:08:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8384C3A76FD; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 09:08:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NfFzj-0009eU-2M for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 17:04:55 +0000 Received: from [2001:4f8:3:bb:230:48ff:fe5a:2f38] (helo=nsa.vix.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:CAMELLIA256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NfFzg-0009as-Hr for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 17:04:52 +0000 Received: from nsa.vix.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nsa.vix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29101A9106; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 17:04:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vixie@nsa.vix.com) From: Paul Vixie To: Andrew Sullivan cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] [ogud@ogud.com: Fwd: Fwd: (Forward to attendees) Meeting invitation: DNSEXT WG Virtual Meeting] In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 10 Feb 2010 11:45:19 EST." <20100210164518.GC5187@shinkuro.com> References: <20100210164518.GC5187@shinkuro.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.1; nil; GNU Emacs 22.2.1 Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 17:04:52 +0000 Message-ID: <70191.1265821492@nsa.vix.com> Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: andrew, i'd like a few minutes to talk about clone zones, if possible. --paul From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Feb 10 12:03:33 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E13C73A75D2; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 12:03:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.252 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.252 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.243, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, GB_I_INVITATION=-2, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oLCtBCwhRygv; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 12:03:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A53973A75B3; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 12:03:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NfIgF-0008Qz-KV for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 19:56:59 +0000 Received: from [192.245.12.227] (helo=balder-227.proper.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NfIgD-0008Qe-Dz for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 19:56:57 +0000 Received: from [192.168.1.70] (75-101-30-90.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net [75.101.30.90]) (authenticated bits=0) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id o1AJueqo058330 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 10 Feb 2010 12:56:41 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from paul.hoffman@vpnc.org) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <70191.1265821492@nsa.vix.com> References: <20100210164518.GC5187@shinkuro.com> <70191.1265821492@nsa.vix.com> Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 11:52:03 -0800 To: Paul Vixie From: Paul Hoffman Subject: Re: [dnsext] [ogud@ogud.com: Fwd: Fwd: (Forward to attendees) Meeting invitation: DNSEXT WG Virtual Meeting] Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: At 5:04 PM +0000 2/10/10, Paul Vixie wrote: >andrew, i'd like a few minutes to talk about clone zones, if possible. --paul What are "clone zones"? I have just scanned the Internet Drafts directory, and can't find them mentioned in any draft. Is this a proposal for which you will have a draft before the interim meeting? --Paul Hoffman, Director --VPN Consortium From dnsext-archive@ietf.org Wed Feb 10 12:33:27 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B7983A7464 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 12:33:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -28.804 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-28.804 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR=2.426, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_16=1.526, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_02=0.383, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_2=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_FROM_DRUGS=1.666, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, URI_HEX=0.368, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qg5CYNzJ+wj3 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 12:33:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from HSI-KBW-091-089-003-088.hsi2.kabelbw.de (HSI-KBW-091-089-003-088.hsi2.kabelbw.de [91.89.3.88]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6961828C22D for ; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 12:33:16 -0800 (PST) From: "Pfizer (tm) VIAGRA (c)" To: dnsext-archive@ietf.org Subject: Personal dnsext-archive 75% Off MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20100210203316.6961828C22D@core3.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 12:33:16 -0800 (PST) User dnsext-archive Newsletter
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From dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Wed Feb 10 12:33:45 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FB7428C27D for ; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 12:33:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -28.804 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-28.804 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR=2.426, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_16=1.526, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_02=0.383, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_2=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_FROM_DRUGS=1.666, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, URI_HEX=0.368, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ENgqolpMVRGL for ; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 12:33:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from HSI-KBW-091-089-003-088.hsi2.kabelbw.de (HSI-KBW-091-089-003-088.hsi2.kabelbw.de [91.89.3.88]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1800028C279 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 12:33:37 -0800 (PST) From: "Pfizer (tm) VIAGRA (c)" To: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: Personal dnsext-archive 79% Off MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20100210203338.1800028C279@core3.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 12:33:37 -0800 (PST) User dnsext-archive Newsletter
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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Feb 10 12:36:59 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD74B28C274; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 12:36:59 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.73 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.73 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.130, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_INFO=1.448, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nKe5i1JINxyH; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 12:36:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 659CB28C28E; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 12:36:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NfJFR-000EIa-7O for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 20:33:21 +0000 Received: from [208.86.224.201] (helo=mail.yitter.info) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:CAMELLIA256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NfJFO-000EID-F1 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 20:33:18 +0000 Received: from crankycanuck.ca (69-196-144-230.dsl.teksavvy.com [69.196.144.230]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.yitter.info (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 9505A1ECB4E8 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 20:33:16 +0000 (UTC) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 15:33:14 -0500 From: Andrew Sullivan To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: [dnsext] DNS64 and SRV records Message-ID: <20100210203314.GV5187@shinkuro.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline List-Id: mailing list of BEHAVE IETF WG User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: Dear colleagues, I'm writing not in my capacity as Chair, but as one of the editors of the BEHAVE DNS64 draft. We have received an interesting observation from Rick van Rein about the draft. This message is similar to a question I posted on the behave list, so if you saw it there feel free to respond there instead. The current draft says that DNS64 MUST NOT alter the Additional section when assembling the answer. Obviously, for some records we habitually include A and AAAA records in the Additional section in order to allow a querying client to proceed without querying again for the answer. The particular case that troubles Rick van Rein is the case of SRV records (but MX records and similar might have this problem as well). RFC 2782 (which specifies the SRV RR) encourages servers to include records in the additional section in order that targets of SRV records can be resolved without additional queries. It notes, however, that clients cannot depend on there being data in the Additional section, because the TTLs on (say) an SRV record and an A record to match the target could be different; so an SRV might be satisfied from cache without a corresponding A for the additional. Now, suppose a client gets an SRV record with data in the additional containing only A records. Suppose also that the client has only IPv6 connectivity, so the A records do the client no good. My reading is that the client _should_ go and query for the AAAA of the target in the SRV record, because there's no data in the additional section that will be useful to the client. If the client does this, it should end up with a synthetic AAAA as usual, and everything will work. The question is whether we know that there are clients that just won't query for the AAAA. If we do know of such clients, then the approach currently in the draft won't work. In that case, I propose changing the draft to require the additional section to be truncated whenever it does not contain at least one AAAA record. Thoughts? A -- Andrew Sullivan ajs@shinkuro.com Shinkuro, Inc. _______________________________________________ Behave mailing list Behave@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/behave From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Feb 10 12:42:16 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 099EE3A7464; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 12:42:16 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, NO_RELAYS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9ccECrr1JT0Q; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 12:42:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FC613A75D5; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 12:42:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NfJL7-000F4f-QD for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 20:39:13 +0000 Received: from [2001:1890:1112:1::20] (helo=mail.ietf.org) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NfJL4-000F3L-2k for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 20:39:10 +0000 Received: by core3.amsl.com (Postfix, from userid 30) id 208E628C269; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 12:37:56 -0800 (PST) X-idtracker: yes To: IETF-Announce From: The IESG Reply-to: ietf@ietf.org CC: Subject: [dnsext] Last Call: draft-ietf-dnsext-dnssec-gost (Use of GOST signature algorithms in DNSKEY and RRSIG Resource Records for DNSSEC) to Proposed Standard Message-Id: <20100210203757.208E628C269@core3.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 12:37:57 -0800 (PST) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: The IESG has received a request from the DNS Extensions WG (dnsext) to consider the following document: - 'Use of GOST signature algorithms in DNSKEY and RRSIG Resource Records for DNSSEC ' as a Proposed Standard The IESG plans to make a decision in the next few weeks, and solicits final comments on this action. Please send substantive comments to the ietf@ietf.org mailing lists by 2010-02-24. Exceptionally, comments may be sent to iesg@ietf.org instead. In either case, please retain the beginning of the Subject line to allow automated sorting. The file can be obtained via http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-dnsext-dnssec-gost-06.txt IESG discussion can be tracked via https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/pidtracker.cgi?command=view_id&dTag=19070&rfc_flag=0 From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Feb 10 13:07:46 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5934F3A75FC; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 13:07:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.547 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.547 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.052, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3EgRXrGwJjnW; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 13:07:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BA7C3A757F; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 13:07:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NfJhT-000JJU-SN for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 21:02:19 +0000 Received: from [72.52.113.17] (helo=sbh17.songbird.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NfJhQ-000JJE-55 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 21:02:16 +0000 Received: from [192.168.1.43] (adsl-68-122-70-87.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net [68.122.70.87]) (authenticated bits=0) by sbh17.songbird.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id o1AL2Ata001633 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 13:02:15 -0800 Message-ID: <4B731ECE.5090504@dcrocker.net> Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 13:02:06 -0800 From: Dave CROCKER Reply-To: dcrocker@bbiw.net Organization: Brandenburg InternetWorking User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.1; en-US; rv:1.9.1.7) Gecko/20100111 Thunderbird/3.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: re: [dnsext] Help me explain CNAMEs Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.92/10375/Wed Feb 10 09:24:44 2010 on sbh17.songbird.com X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.0 (sbh17.songbird.com [72.52.113.17]); Wed, 10 Feb 2010 13:02:15 -0800 (PST) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: Folks, > * To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org > * Subject: [dnsext] Help me explain CNAMEs > * From: John Levine > * Date: 10 Feb 2010 03:55:28 -0000 ... > Are the answers to questions like these written down clearly anywhere? > > A) With these DNS records: > > a.b CNAME c.d > > c.d A 1.2.3.4 > z.c.d A 2.3.4.5 > > What does an A query for z.a.b return? Folks, John was given a couple of different cases. One was perhaps in the style that he's cited. However another one was: a.b CNAME c.d _x.a.b TXT foobar c.d A 1.2.3.4 The question is whether a CNAME is legal as a terminal RR for a domain name that also has a sub-domain? That is, does CNAME affect the tree walk, for a client-provided string that marches down the hierarchy and happens to walk past the name containing the CNAME RR. So, will a query to _x.a.b get foobar returned, or something else? If the presence of a CNAME renders it illegal to have sub-domain names under the name containing the CNAME, where is this documented? d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Feb 10 13:36:54 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4734228C1F3; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 13:36:54 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.21 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.21 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-3.015, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id F1uepQv8fEEs; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 13:36:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6726328C147; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 13:36:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NfKCQ-000NW7-LN for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 21:34:18 +0000 Received: from [144.254.224.141] (helo=ams-iport-2.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NfKCN-000NRP-Fg for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 21:34:15 +0000 Authentication-Results: ams-iport-2.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-Files: PGP.sig : 186 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AqQAABa1ckuQ/uCWe2dsb2JhbACaZhUBARYkBh2mUJdfhFUE X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.49,446,1262563200"; d="sig'?scan'208";a="3248625" Received: from ams-core-1.cisco.com ([144.254.224.150]) by ams-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 10 Feb 2010 21:03:08 +0000 Received: from [192.168.1.172] (dhcp-10-61-104-136.cisco.com [10.61.104.136]) by ams-core-1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o1ALYCCr006734; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 21:34:12 GMT Subject: Re: [dnsext] DNS64 and SRV records Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1; boundary="Apple-Mail-98--232357292" From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Patrik_F=E4ltstr=F6m?= In-Reply-To: <20100210203314.GV5187@shinkuro.com> Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 22:34:11 +0100 Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <352AAD51-8B29-4C96-B126-DF5EE77B866E@cisco.com> References: <20100210203314.GV5187@shinkuro.com> To: Andrew Sullivan X-Pgp-Agent: GPGMail 1.2.3 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --Apple-Mail-98--232357292 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On 10 feb 2010, at 21.33, Andrew Sullivan wrote: > The question is whether we know that there are clients that just won't > query for the AAAA. If we do know of such clients, then the approach > currently in the draft won't work. In that case, I propose changing > the draft to require the additional section to be truncated whenever > it does not contain at least one AAAA record. >=20 > Thoughts? My view is that the only reasonable thing is to allow implementations to = also either remove the additional information, or synthesize also A = records in the Additional Section using the same algorithm used for the = Answer section. Sorry for not mentioning this earlier, but I dived into DNS64 just some = time ago... I.e. I would support the ability for altering the data in the Additional = section and still be compliant. Patrik --Apple-Mail-98--232357292 content-type: application/pgp-signature; x-mac-type=70674453; name=PGP.sig content-description: This is a digitally signed message part content-disposition: inline; filename=PGP.sig content-transfer-encoding: 7bit -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.8 (Darwin) iD8DBQFLcyZTvHlR2X0luNwRAsHkAJ9z/hdXHmesBfdvsFWOApTeHtSkEACg+fot ZqRpaBisPLeb6hTPjZu6B+M= =rJzq -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail-98--232357292-- From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Feb 10 13:50:15 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 30C3A3A77BF; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 13:50:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.144 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.144 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.049, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HABEAS_ACCREDITED_SOI=-4.3, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RCVD_IN_BSP_TRUSTED=-4.3, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dJFAeeLw0b6n; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 13:50:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D47803A68C3; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 13:50:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NfKP1-000PKh-Ao for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 21:47:19 +0000 Received: from [64.57.183.53] (helo=gal.iecc.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NfKOx-000PKH-I2 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 21:47:15 +0000 Received: (qmail 64083 invoked from network); 10 Feb 2010 21:47:14 -0000 Received: from mail1.iecc.com (64.57.183.56) by mail1.iecc.com with QMQP; 10 Feb 2010 21:47:14 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:cc:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=k1002; olt=johnl@user.iecc.com; bh=3DR16EIUGY1rWapCImZJQtZjXiCE1jaLYr3DHibmIdI=; b=kcZUItApCBRhDYe0/a2k+GI1CvWlrVI8MX7yDk1drnb9k+pyGHWzE2BfeBLCh49N9v1Ir2S8tJzg2hX80sluaIIt7w1x8FWVfsvA9LuMBbi4l/YK0dfPr61htvt+ejwwceL8ctdkwHY0JWi2ExRQrMCY1RYlRot7ISHQVPfu3wQ= Date: 10 Feb 2010 21:47:13 -0000 Message-ID: <20100210214713.47395.qmail@simone.iecc.com> From: John Levine To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] Help me explain CNAMEs In-Reply-To: <4B731ECE.5090504@dcrocker.net> Organization: Cc: dcrocker@bbiw.net X-Headerized: yes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: >If the presence of a CNAME renders it illegal to have sub-domain >names under the name containing the CNAME, where is this documented? I was mistaken, it doesn't, I was confused by the separate problem of putting CNAMEs at the apex of a zone (which doesn't work either.) There's a separate administrative issue unrelated to the DNS bits, of managing the combination of CNAME and the other record. In this application the contents of the other record in the sub-domain are supposed to track a similarly named record in a sub-domain of the target of the CNAME. Too bad nobody supports DNAME. R's, John From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Feb 10 13:57:54 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F6703A7607; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 13:57:54 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QpYsX9sllhSf; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 13:57:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DA1428C120; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 13:57:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NfKXE-0000Jf-HK for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 21:55:48 +0000 Received: from [2001:4f8:3:bb::5] (helo=farside.isc.org) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NfKX9-0000It-Ou for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 21:55:43 +0000 Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (drugs.dv.isc.org [IPv6:2001:470:1f00:820:214:22ff:fed9:fbdc]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "drugs.dv.isc.org", Issuer "ISC CA" (not verified)) by farside.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19B0CE60A9; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 21:55:42 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marka@isc.org) Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by drugs.dv.isc.org (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o1ALtek3089328; Thu, 11 Feb 2010 08:55:40 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from marka@drugs.dv.isc.org) Message-Id: <201002102155.o1ALtek3089328@drugs.dv.isc.org> To: dcrocker@bbiw.net Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org From: Mark Andrews References: <4B731ECE.5090504@dcrocker.net> Subject: Re: [dnsext] Help me explain CNAMEs In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 10 Feb 2010 13:02:06 -0800." <4B731ECE.5090504@dcrocker.net> Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2010 08:55:40 +1100 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: In message <4B731ECE.5090504@dcrocker.net>, Dave CROCKER writes: > Folks, > > > > * To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org > > * Subject: [dnsext] Help me explain CNAMEs > > * From: John Levine > > * Date: 10 Feb 2010 03:55:28 -0000 > ... > > Are the answers to questions like these written down clearly anywhere? > > > > A) With these DNS records: > > > > a.b CNAME c.d > > > > c.d A 1.2.3.4 > > z.c.d A 2.3.4.5 > > > > What does an A query for z.a.b return? > > > Folks, > > John was given a couple of different cases. One was perhaps in the style tha > t > he's cited. > > However another one was: > > a.b CNAME c.d > _x.a.b TXT foobar > > c.d A 1.2.3.4 > > The question is whether a CNAME is legal as a terminal RR for a domain name t > hat > also has a sub-domain? yes. > That is, does CNAME affect the tree walk, for a client-provided string that > marches down the hierarchy and happens to walk past the name containing the > CNAME RR. No. > So, will a query to _x.a.b get foobar returned, or something else? foobar > If the presence of a CNAME renders it illegal to have sub-domain names under > the > name containing the CNAME, where is this documented? > > d/ > > -- > > Dave Crocker > Brandenburg InternetWorking > bbiw.net > -- Mark Andrews, ISC 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: marka@isc.org From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Feb 10 14:52:00 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FECB3A73A6; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 14:52:00 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.673 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.673 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.073, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_INFO=1.448, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fYoCZvilFZHk; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 14:51:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B09103A71A9; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 14:51:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NfLLd-0007dz-Ra for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 22:47:53 +0000 Received: from [208.86.224.201] (helo=mail.yitter.info) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:CAMELLIA256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NfLLb-0007dV-5x for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 22:47:51 +0000 Received: from crankycanuck.ca (69-196-144-230.dsl.teksavvy.com [69.196.144.230]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.yitter.info (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id DA5431ECB4E8 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 22:47:49 +0000 (UTC) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 17:47:48 -0500 From: Andrew Sullivan To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] DNS64 and SRV records Message-ID: <20100210224746.GA5187@shinkuro.com> References: <20100210203314.GV5187@shinkuro.com> <352AAD51-8B29-4C96-B126-DF5EE77B866E@cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <352AAD51-8B29-4C96-B126-DF5EE77B866E@cisco.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On Wed, Feb 10, 2010 at 10:34:11PM +0100, Patrik Fältström wrote: > > My view is that the only reasonable thing is to allow > implementations to also either remove the additional information, or > synthesize also A records in the Additional Section using the same > algorithm used for the Answer section. Well, we used to have the option of synthesizing AAAA records for the additional section, and it became obvious that that wouldn't work. For if you have a synthetic AAAA that corresponds to the address of an NS record, then you will get the AAAA back and traverse the NAT64 to reach that NS, which you will then query. Your DNS64-oblivious query source asks a DNS64-oblivious name server for an answer, and you don't get one, because there are no real AAAA records in the zone for the resource you want. This is why we changed the draft to say "leave the additional alone". Mark Andrews made this point very firmly (and, in my estimation, correctly). Therefore, I think the only options are "leave the data alone" and "truncate the Additional". I think that synthesizing in the Additional is dangerous. A -- Andrew Sullivan ajs@shinkuro.com Shinkuro, Inc. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Feb 10 15:25:51 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F8B63A7636; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 15:25:51 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xnjbVrxV0VRQ; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 15:25:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 612583A7631; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 15:25:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NfLsm-000BgR-I0 for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 23:22:08 +0000 Received: from [2001:4f8:3:bb::5] (helo=farside.isc.org) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NfLsk-000BgF-A3 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 23:22:06 +0000 Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (drugs.dv.isc.org [IPv6:2001:470:1f00:820:214:22ff:fed9:fbdc]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "drugs.dv.isc.org", Issuer "ISC CA" (not verified)) by farside.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75C6CE606C; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 23:22:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marka@isc.org) Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by drugs.dv.isc.org (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o1ANM218091061; Thu, 11 Feb 2010 10:22:03 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from marka@drugs.dv.isc.org) Message-Id: <201002102322.o1ANM218091061@drugs.dv.isc.org> To: John Levine Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org, dcrocker@bbiw.net From: Mark Andrews References: <20100210214713.47395.qmail@simone.iecc.com> Subject: Re: [dnsext] Help me explain CNAMEs In-reply-to: Your message of "10 Feb 2010 21:47:13 -0000." <20100210214713.47395.qmail@simone.iecc.com> Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2010 10:22:02 +1100 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: In message <20100210214713.47395.qmail@simone.iecc.com>, John Levine writes: > >If the presence of a CNAME renders it illegal to have sub-domain > >names under the name containing the CNAME, where is this documented? > > I was mistaken, it doesn't, I was confused by the separate problem > of putting CNAMEs at the apex of a zone (which doesn't work either.) > > There's a separate administrative issue unrelated to the DNS bits, of > managing the combination of CNAME and the other record. In this > application the contents of the other record in the sub-domain are > supposed to track a similarly named record in a sub-domain of the > target of the CNAME. Too bad nobody supports DNAME. Firstly the majority of the nameservers (authoritative, recursive and combined) on the planet support DNAME and have for the last 10 years. Secondly DNAME is completely backwards compatible with the existing servers. The only requirement for using DNAME is that all the authoritative servers for the zone need to support DNAME. Every server that supports DNSSEC also supports DNAME. If they don't they are not RFC compliant. Mark > R's, > John > > -- Mark Andrews, ISC 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: marka@isc.org From dnsext-archive@ietf.org Wed Feb 10 15:27:39 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51EDE3A7631 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 15:27:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.214 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.214 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2=4.395, HOST_EQ_STATIC=1.172, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_24=1.552, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_02=0.383, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, SARE_FROM_DRUGS=1.666, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.931, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_SBL=20, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, URI_HEX=0.368, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ylcgyD2cner6 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 15:27:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from 61-90-156-21.static.asianet.co.th (61-90-156-21.static.asianet.co.th [61.90.156.21]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 073C23A7636 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 15:27:31 -0800 (PST) From: "VIAGRA from Pfizer" To: dnsext-archive@ietf.org Subject: dnsext-archive Winter -80% Deals Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <20100210232732.073C23A7636@core3.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 15:27:31 -0800 (PST) December 2009
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From dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Wed Feb 10 15:27:44 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E43193A7636 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 15:27:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.213 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.213 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2=4.395, HOST_EQ_STATIC=1.172, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_24=1.552, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_02=0.383, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, NUMERIC_HTTP_ADDR=0.001, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, SARE_FROM_DRUGS=1.666, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.931, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_SBL=20, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, URI_HEX=0.368, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ipu7M+iidlY1 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 15:27:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from 61-90-156-21.static.asianet.co.th (61-90-156-21.static.asianet.co.th [61.90.156.21]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 908463A77DD for ; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 15:27:37 -0800 (PST) From: "VIAGRA from Pfizer" To: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: dnsext-archive Winter -80% Deals Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <20100210232737.908463A77DD@core3.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 15:27:37 -0800 (PST) December 2009
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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Feb 10 22:59:24 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABD313A7442; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 22:59:24 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.833 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.833 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.362, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RkdobXxfEFAv; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 22:59:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A14CF3A73C7; Wed, 10 Feb 2010 22:59:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NfSvK-000LPK-Kr for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Thu, 11 Feb 2010 06:53:14 +0000 Received: from [144.254.224.140] (helo=ams-iport-1.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NfSvF-000LOn-Ou for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 11 Feb 2010 06:53:10 +0000 Authentication-Results: ams-iport-1.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-Files: PGP.sig : 186 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AvUAAOA3c0uQ/uCWe2dsb2JhbACaehUBARYkBh2lEpdfhFUE X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.49,450,1262563200"; d="sig'?scan'208";a="56975414" Received: from ams-core-1.cisco.com ([144.254.224.150]) by ams-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 11 Feb 2010 06:53:07 +0000 Received: from [192.168.1.172] (dhcp-10-61-104-136.cisco.com [10.61.104.136]) by ams-core-1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o1B6r5lG021688; Thu, 11 Feb 2010 06:53:06 GMT Subject: Re: [dnsext] DNS64 and SRV records Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1; boundary="Apple-Mail-104--198824138" From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Patrik_F=E4ltstr=F6m?= In-Reply-To: <20100210224746.GA5187@shinkuro.com> Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2010 07:53:04 +0100 Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: References: <20100210203314.GV5187@shinkuro.com> <352AAD51-8B29-4C96-B126-DF5EE77B866E@cisco.com> <20100210224746.GA5187@shinkuro.com> To: Andrew Sullivan X-Pgp-Agent: GPGMail 1.2.3 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --Apple-Mail-104--198824138 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On 10 feb 2010, at 23.47, Andrew Sullivan wrote: > Well, we used to have the option of synthesizing AAAA records for the > additional section, and it became obvious that that wouldn't work. Hmm... > For if you have a synthetic AAAA that corresponds to the address of an > NS record, then you will get the AAAA back and traverse the NAT64 to > reach that NS, which you will then query. Your DNS64-oblivious > query source asks a DNS64-oblivious name server for an answer, and you > don't get one, because there are no real AAAA records in the zone for > the resource you want. Can you be more specific. Are you talking about the following: A query is sent with RD=3D0 and then for www.example.com, IN, AAAA, and = the result that comes back to the DNS64 box is the following: Query: www.example.com, IN, AAAA Answer: Authority: example.com. IN NS ns.example.com. Additional: ns.example.com. IN A 1.2.3.4 The DNS64 box then have three alternatives: 1. Remove the additional section Query: www.example.com, IN, AAAA Answer: Authority: example.com. IN NS ns.example.com. Additional: 2. Keep the additional data as it is: Query: www.example.com, IN, AAAA Answer: Authority: example.com. IN NS ns.example.com. Additional: ns.example.com. IN A 1.2.3.4 3. Synthesize an AAAA in the additional section: Query: www.example.com, IN, AAAA Answer: Authority: example.com. IN NS ns.example.com. Additional: ns.example.com. IN AAAA dead:beef::1234 If we look at version 3, the next thing the client might do is to send a = DNS packet directly to that IPv6 address that is synthesized. It will be = possible to send the query as the NAT64 box will detect the synthesized = address in the destination, and NAT it to the corresponding IPv4 = address. But, I think you talk about the problem with the client sending the = query www.example.com. IN AAAA to that authoritative server as there = might not be an AAAA record in the zone for www.example.com? > This is why we changed the draft to say "leave the additional alone". > Mark Andrews made this point very firmly (and, in my estimation, > correctly). Hmm...ok...I think I start to get this now. :-) > Therefore, I think the only options are "leave the data alone" and > "truncate the Additional". I think that synthesizing in the > Additional is dangerous. Patrik --Apple-Mail-104--198824138 content-type: application/pgp-signature; x-mac-type=70674453; name=PGP.sig content-description: This is a digitally signed message part content-disposition: inline; filename=PGP.sig content-transfer-encoding: 7bit -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.8 (Darwin) iD8DBQFLc6lQvHlR2X0luNwRAtiKAJ4q7u4aJvHVp4omc/qSgBxZ6ZGOXQCfaadM TWYBNeqnF7EHIKVzpwnGn/M= =hP5f -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail-104--198824138-- From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Thu Feb 11 01:47:07 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A91328C11A; Thu, 11 Feb 2010 01:47:07 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id i4PsXDryKfWe; Thu, 11 Feb 2010 01:47:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BA0828C102; Thu, 11 Feb 2010 01:47:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NfVZf-000F1C-B6 for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Thu, 11 Feb 2010 09:43:03 +0000 Received: from [2001:478:6:0:230:48ff:fe11:220a] (helo=vacation.karoshi.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NfVZZ-000Epg-HO for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 11 Feb 2010 09:42:59 +0000 Received: from karoshi.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by vacation.karoshi.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o1B9fatv031253; Thu, 11 Feb 2010 09:41:36 GMT Received: (from bmanning@localhost) by karoshi.com (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id o1B9faPE031252; Thu, 11 Feb 2010 09:41:36 GMT Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2010 09:41:36 +0000 From: bmanning@vacation.karoshi.com To: Andrew Sullivan Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] DNS64 and SRV records Message-ID: <20100211094136.GA29373@vacation.karoshi.com.> References: <20100210203314.GV5187@shinkuro.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20100210203314.GV5187@shinkuro.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: > > RFC 2782 (which specifies the SRV RR) encourages servers to include > records in the additional section in order that targets of SRV records > can be resolved without additional queries. It notes, however, that > clients cannot depend on there being data in the Additional section, > because the TTLs on (say) an SRV record and an A record to match the > target could be different; so an SRV might be satisfied from cache > without a corresponding A for the additional. this presumes (correctly) that the DNS has no information about the available transports at the target. > Now, suppose a client gets an SRV record with data in the additional > containing only A records. Suppose also that the client has only IPv6 > connectivity, so the A records do the client no good. or ... contains only AAAA records and the client only has IPv4 connectivity... > My reading is that the client _should_ go and query for the AAAA of > the target in the SRV record, because there's no data in the > additional section that will be useful to the client. If the client > does this, it should end up with a synthetic AAAA as usual, and > everything will work. well - if there is no data in the answer or additional section that is useful to the client, then the client has two choices: a) use what data they have b) get more data the DNS has no way to determine IP transport availablity, regardless off family. > The question is whether we know that there are clients that just won't > query for the AAAA. If we do know of such clients, then the approach > currently in the draft won't work. In that case, I propose changing > the draft to require the additional section to be truncated whenever > it does not contain at least one AAAA record. I suspect your proposed changes are worse than doing requeries. and yes - there are some client code that won't re-query. > Thoughts? > > A > > -- > Andrew Sullivan > ajs@shinkuro.com > Shinkuro, Inc. > _______________________________________________ > Behave mailing list > Behave@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/behave From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Thu Feb 11 05:59:18 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0EB613A7575; Thu, 11 Feb 2010 05:59:18 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.622 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.622 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.022, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_INFO=1.448, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5mfxeg1N5vop; Thu, 11 Feb 2010 05:59:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 222A03A7558; Thu, 11 Feb 2010 05:59:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NfZU1-000IsI-Eb for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Thu, 11 Feb 2010 13:53:29 +0000 Received: from [208.86.224.201] (helo=mail.yitter.info) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:CAMELLIA256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NfZTy-000Iro-S9 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 11 Feb 2010 13:53:26 +0000 Received: from crankycanuck.ca (69-196-144-230.dsl.teksavvy.com [69.196.144.230]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.yitter.info (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4E2F91ECB4E8 for ; Thu, 11 Feb 2010 13:53:25 +0000 (UTC) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2010 08:53:20 -0500 From: Andrew Sullivan To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] DNS64 and SRV records Message-ID: <20100211135320.GA9592@shinkuro.com> References: <20100210203314.GV5187@shinkuro.com> <352AAD51-8B29-4C96-B126-DF5EE77B866E@cisco.com> <20100210224746.GA5187@shinkuro.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On Thu, Feb 11, 2010 at 07:53:04AM +0100, Patrik Fältström wrote: > The DNS64 box then have three alternatives: > > 1. Remove the additional section > > Query: www.example.com, IN, AAAA > Answer: > Authority: example.com. IN NS ns.example.com. > Additional: Not quite: the DNS64 box when assembling this answer would already have synthesized the AAAA for the answer section and put that in place. So there's a AAAA answer that includes the Pref::64/n and the corresponding IPv4 address. Other than that, yes. > 2. Keep the additional data as it is: > > Query: www.example.com, IN, AAAA > Answer: > Authority: example.com. IN NS ns.example.com. > Additional: ns.example.com. IN A 1.2.3.4 See above, but yes. > 3. Synthesize an AAAA in the additional section: > > Query: www.example.com, IN, AAAA > Answer: > Authority: example.com. IN NS ns.example.com. > Additional: ns.example.com. IN AAAA dead:beef::1234 Modulo the answer thing above, yes. This is the one we currently forbid. > If we look at version 3, the next thing the client might do is to > send a DNS packet directly to that IPv6 address that is > synthesized. It will be possible to send the query as the NAT64 box > will detect the synthesized address in the destination, and NAT it > to the corresponding IPv4 address. Right, that will work, assuming the only route out is the NAT64 box (or assuming it takes that route. There's the other problem about dual-homed v6-only hosts, but we already say "don't do that". As I've said before, anyone who thinks this DNS64/NAT64 approach is anything other than a mostly-works kludge is kidding themselves). But … > But, I think you talk about the problem with the client sending the > query www.example.com. IN AAAA to that authoritative server as there > might not be an AAAA record in the zone for www.example.com? …exactly. And since _ex hypothesi_ the querying host doesn't know about NAT64 and the DNS authority server doesn't know about the NAT64, this will break anyway. So we might as well have it break as early as possible. A -- Andrew Sullivan ajs@shinkuro.com Shinkuro, Inc. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Thu Feb 11 05:59:57 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB5B63A7558; Thu, 11 Feb 2010 05:59:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.576 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.576 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.976, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_INFO=1.448, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aQyhsLaSM1sJ; Thu, 11 Feb 2010 05:59:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DABC63A74EB; Thu, 11 Feb 2010 05:59:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NfZXv-000JJH-BM for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Thu, 11 Feb 2010 13:57:31 +0000 Received: from [208.86.224.201] (helo=mail.yitter.info) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:CAMELLIA256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NfZXs-000JIn-VM for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 11 Feb 2010 13:57:29 +0000 Received: from crankycanuck.ca (69-196-144-230.dsl.teksavvy.com [69.196.144.230]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.yitter.info (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E9E851ECB4E8 for ; Thu, 11 Feb 2010 13:57:27 +0000 (UTC) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2010 08:57:26 -0500 From: Andrew Sullivan To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] DNS64 and SRV records Message-ID: <20100211135726.GB9592@shinkuro.com> References: <20100210203314.GV5187@shinkuro.com> <20100211094136.GA29373@vacation.karoshi.com.> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20100211094136.GA29373@vacation.karoshi.com.> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On Thu, Feb 11, 2010 at 09:41:36AM +0000, bmanning@vacation.karoshi.com wrote: > I suspect your proposed changes are worse than doing requeries. > and yes - there are some client code that won't re-query. If we just truncate the Additional section, what additional harm can come? A client that knows to look up when it has no additional, but falls over when it has additional it can't use, will look up. A client that just doesn't know what to when it doesn't have useful additional is no worse off. And everyone else is no worse off, because under the scenario we're imagining, there's no additional that's useful (so this collapses to the previous case). Therefore, we should just not return any additional to the client if and only if we have done synthesis. (If there's available AAAA in the first place, no synthesis is supposed to happen, although for some reason some people insist on including the "always synthesise" policy as allowed. I am betting that will be broken in practice and that nobody will be able really to use it.) A -- Andrew Sullivan ajs@shinkuro.com Shinkuro, Inc. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Thu Feb 11 07:21:21 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BF143A76EE; Thu, 11 Feb 2010 07:21:21 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.602, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, J_CHICKENPOX_53=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_62=0.6, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id huk8O0htNrTA; Thu, 11 Feb 2010 07:21:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 719433A758E; Thu, 11 Feb 2010 07:21:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nfamr-0006io-Dx for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Thu, 11 Feb 2010 15:17:01 +0000 Received: from [66.92.146.20] (helo=stora.ogud.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nfamm-0006i7-FI for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 11 Feb 2010 15:16:57 +0000 Received: from stora.ogud.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by stora.ogud.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o1BFGqGt049811 for ; Thu, 11 Feb 2010 10:16:52 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from namedroppers@stora.ogud.com) Received: (from namedroppers@localhost) by stora.ogud.com (8.14.3/8.14.3/Submit) id o1BFGqQE049810 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 11 Feb 2010 10:16:52 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from namedroppers) Received: from [128.9.208.207] (helo=nitro.isi.edu) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NdtQX-000NFi-0D for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Sat, 06 Feb 2010 22:46:57 +0000 Received: from [192.168.1.95] (pool-71-106-88-10.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net [71.106.88.10] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by nitro.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id o16Mk6d0010960 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Sat, 6 Feb 2010 14:46:07 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4B6DF12D.9070808@isi.edu> Date: Sat, 06 Feb 2010 14:46:05 -0800 From: Joe Touch User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Windows/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Alfred_=3F?= CC: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org, apps-discuss@ietf.org, tsvwg@ietf.org, draft-ietf-tsvwg-iana-ports@cabernet.tools.IETF.ORG, port-srv-reg@ietf.org Subject: [dnsext] Re: [port-srv-reg] New Version Notification for draft-gudmundsson-dnsext-srv-clarify-00 (fwd) References: <200912281732.SAA12969@TR-Sys.de> In-Reply-To: <200912281732.SAA12969@TR-Sys.de> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.96.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enig784C8AD06B03EE4661588AE2" X-MailScanner-ID: o16Mk6d0010960 X-ISI-4-69-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: touch@isi.edu X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.67 on 66.92.146.20 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: [ Moderators note: Post was moderated, either because it was posted by a non-subscriber, or because it was over 20K. With the massive amount of spam, it is easy to miss and therefore delete relevant posts by non-subscribers. Please fix your subscription addresses. ] This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enig784C8AD06B03EE4661588AE2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, all, I completely agree with the abstract and the first bullet of section 1.1, and section 1.2 EXCEPT in proposing the extension (appendix A). I don't think adding an extension "clarifies"; this doc ought to focus on the clarification issue, and would be useful if doing so. Specific comments below, though IMO the structural issues are worth addressing *before* the specific comments indicated. Joe --------------- =2E.. > Clarification of DNS SRV Owner Names > draft-gudmundsson-dnsext-srv-clarify-00 =2E.. > 1.1. Problem Statement >=20 > RFC 2782 says that the source of names for "Service" and "Proto" is > "Assigned Numbers" (STD2) or a locally defined repository. >=20 > However, upon reflection, both alternatives do not seem to make > particular sense: >=20 > o The STD2 series of documents was obsoleted by RFC 3232 [RFC3232] > and IANA registration publication was handed over to on-line > registries maintained by IANA. Unfortunately it is not explicitl= y > explained in RFC 2782 which section of STD2 it is referring to, > nor does RFC 3232 help. By common knowledge, RFC 2782 referred t= o > the Keyword columns of the "Protocol Numbers" and "Port Numbers" >=20 >=20 >=20 > Gudmundsson & Hoenes Expires July 1, 2010 [Page 3= ] > =0C > Internet-Draft SRV Prefix Clarifications December 200= 9 >=20 >=20 > IANA registries, respectively. >=20 > As SRV records contain the port where each server provides the > service, the outmost utility of SRV RRs is for services that do > not have a registered port number.=20 or where they are provided on ports other than the registered one. > Also, the number of ports > available is small compared to the possible number of service > names that could be registered. Therefore, the "Port Number" > registry needs a more strict registration policy and is not the > proper place for registering service names for use with SRV > resource records. This implies that service names with assigned ports would not be used with SRVs; this is not required by the SRV spec. It also implies that SRV names are somehow independent of the port number registry, but the IANA ports doc ID formalizes the unification of these two namespaces. > o Having locally defined lists of service and/or protocol names > would equally allow to list the full service information in such > local databases and thus make the usage of SRV records redundant.= This language is awkward, and the logic is backwards. It's like saying "you don't need the DNS because you can have hosts.txt". SRV can replace /etc/services (with the appropriate changes to standards); the converse is not true, so "equal" may be misleading. > In any case, this scenario is not applicable for publicly > available services where potential clients are not under the > control of the authority offering the services, and hence most > probably would have no access to the proper "locally provided" > information. The reader is reminded that locally maintained > database solutions generally scale very poorly, and that this onc= e > was the major momentum for the deployment of the Domain Name replace 'momentum' with 'impetus' (or motivation?) > System. As above, confusing and may need rewording. I'm not sure what you're primary point is. > 1.2. Objective for this Document and its Companions I completely agree with this section, but subsequent sections diverge from this objective IMO. =2E.. > 2. General Considerations for SRV Service Prefixes >=20 > SRV Service Prefixes SHOULD consist of exactly two labels. When do they not? Is it even possible they do not? > If the specification of a particular application/service indicates > that this service is to be provided at a specific registered port > number and does not mention DNS SRV based service discovery, > prospective clients SHOULD NOT assume the existence of SRV records I'd go with "MUST NOT" assume (isn't that in the SRV spec?) > for this application, unless the client has hints available that > indicate otherwise -- for instance by means of configuration. In > this case, only the rules of Sections 3 and 4 apply. No need for the rest of the sentence (unless...); in that case, there is no assumption. > If the specification of a particular application/service does mentio= n > dynamic service discovery based on DNS SRV records but does not > specify otherwise in a precise and unambiguous manner, the rules of > Sections 3 and 4 apply. In this case, a prospective client SHOULD > look up the DNS for the appropriate SRV records for the intended > Service Domain. ******** =46rom here down (see trailing ********, i.e., all of the rest of section= 3), the discussion diverges from the main point of this doc, and introduces a new concept of layered services. That may be a useful concept to explore, but belongs in a separate document, and IMO is premature. > Some services can be carried equivalently in different encapsulation= s > using higher-level "substrate" protocols like HTTP, BEEP, SOAP, SIP,= > XMPP, some of which in turn can be carried over different transport > protocols. In this case, it is possible that certain servers for an= > application only support specific protocol stacks, or that a Service= > Domain provides a different set of servers for each protocol stack. > Consequently, there occasionally is a need to specify such details i= n > the SRV Service Prefix. Since the Protocol Label is intentionally > restricted (Section 3), this information has to be carried in the > Service Label for this application. Interesting idea, but currently SRVs and port numbers are assigned to the entirety of layers 5-7 (and any shims therein). This proposes a completely new structure for services that should be considered as a separate issue, and IMO is far too premature to consider for deployment. > There are two possibilities to achieve this goal: >=20 > a. If there is only a small number of "substrate" protocols to > distinguish, it is RECOMMENDED that the application designers > register multiple Service Names with IANA in the "Service Names > and Port Numbers" registry [RFCyyyy], which usually will start > with the same characters and contain a suffix attached with a > hyphen embedded in the name. The 15-char limit doesn't support this option. There are far too many current names that do not have this sort of syntax. Finally, any structure in the service layering should be supported in the SRV system, not in the syntax of the namespace. > One disadvantage of this solution is the length limitation > imposed on the Service Name by [RFCyyyy] (15 characters, see >=20 >=20 >=20 > Gudmundsson & Hoenes Expires July 1, 2010 [Page 6= ] > =0C > Internet-Draft SRV Prefix Clarifications December 200= 9 >=20 >=20 > Section 4). Also, [RFCyyyy] recommends that -- notwithstanding > some very popular, and mostly legacy cases -- each service ought= > to be represented by a *single* Service Name. If the service is= > the same and only the substrate used is different, this solution= > arguably is in conflict with [RFCyyyy]. >=20 > b. If the number of substrate stacks to be supported is larger, or > if the 'canonical' labels that the application designers prefer > would result in exceeding the maximum length of Service Names, o= r > if multi-layer substrates shall be represented, or if the "uniqu= e > Service Name per service" argument is deemed important, an > extension scheme is needed for the construction of Service Label= s > for such exceptional services. This goes outside the scope of the IANA ports doc; service names are 15 chars in that doc, and that doc doesn't address extension services. This is premature. > The non-normative Appendix A proposes a scheme for extended > Service Labels that does not pollute the namespace of Service > Names and hence adheres to the uniqueness and collision-freeness= > requirements of [RFCyyyy]. The basic Service Name can be easily= > extracted from these extended Service Labels, as they employ a > separator character not allowed in Service Names to attach > qualifier(s) to a 'basic' Service Label as specified in > Section 4. >=20 > Application designers who want to make use of that scheme MUST > independently and unambiguously specify the application of that > scheme for their service and ensure that a reference to the > document containing this specification (if different from the > document specifying the basic service) is added to the entry for= > that service in the "Service Names and Port Numbers" IANA > registry, following the registration procedures of [RFCyyyy]. >=20 > To re-iterate, absent such explicit, registered specification, > the rules of Section 4 (and, of course, Section 3 as well) still= > apply in these cases. >=20 > Application protocol designers ought to keep service discovery > simple. The fewer alternatives a prospective client has to consider= > and the fewer choices he has to find suitable SRV records, the faste= r > the service discovery can be performed, because it needs fewer DNS > queries on average and thus incurs less latency. If alternative > transports and/or variations of the service are really needed to be > distinguished by service discovery, to foster interoperablity there > SHOULD always be defined a default version supported by all clients > and servers, and configured in the DNS, thus allowing an orderly > fallback in case client preferences cannot be accommodated. Fallback is a property of a protocol; each service has different requirements for such backward compatibility. If such a default or fallback is assumed, then the SRV system should have a flag indicating that. Port numbers are not intended to have any hierarchy or alternates of services, so such a fallback is not appropriate to indicate there. (each service group can do this, but it's not realistic to write a SHOULD unless you know when it is violated and can enforce it; there's no requirement to explain when protocols are grouped or have defaults, so requiring application designers to do this begs the question of how). ******** (i.e., to end of section 3) =2E.. > 4. Standard Service Labels >=20 > Absent a normative document specifying otherwise, the SRV Service > Label for a specific service/application SHOULD be in the form of a > "Standard SRV Servcie Label" as specified in this section. >=20 > Standard SRV Service Labels MUST be formed by prepending an > underscore character ("_") to the Service Name of an application >=20 >=20 >=20 > Gudmundsson & Hoenes Expires July 1, 2010 [Page 8= ] > =0C > Internet-Draft SRV Prefix Clarifications December 200= 9 >=20 >=20 > protocol registered in the IANA "Service Names and Port Numbers" > registry [RFCyyyy]. >=20 > Note that in order to make use of DNS based service discovery using > SRV records, the application/service does *not* need an IANA-assigne= d > port number (which would also be filed in the IANA "Service Names an= d > Port Numbers" registry). >=20 > The port numbers carried in the RDATA portion of the SRV records are= > locally assigned within the Service Domain; in case the service > indeed has an IANA-assigned (default) port number, the locally IANA-assigned is not indicated as "default". There's no mechanism that specifies it as a default. > assigned port number MAY coincide with that default port number, > unless the documentation of the service specifies otherwise (it may > say "MUST", "SHOULD", or recommend *against* using the default). >=20 > As all domain name labels, SRV Service Labels are matched in a case-= > insensitive manner. >=20 > [RFCyyyy] restricts IANA-registered Service Names to 15 characters i= n > "ldh-syntax", informally: The rest of this section should be dropped. Just cite the IANA doc. If/when the IANA spec changes, so should this. It's a bad idea to copy requirements into a separate doc. =2E.. > Appendix A offers a scheme for "Extended SRV Service Labels" that ca= n > be adopted by service specifications that cannot contend with these > restrictions, and which seek for a versatile naming scheme not > violating the provisions of [RFCyyyy]. IMO this appendix should be offered and its necessity argued in a separate document. > 5. Service Discovery Client Considerations >=20 > Implementations making use of dynamic service discovery based on DNS= > SRV records for a particular application/service will construct a > prioritized list of applicable Service Prefixes, following the > guidelines in the two subsections below. This appears to be describing new user-side requirements for the use of SRVs. This needs further discussion in the WG; I don't think such a prioritized list should be required. --- I don't understand why the remainder of this section (below) is needed; you're just restating how to use SRVs, and the SRV spec should have said that. Didn't it? > To form the QNAME(s) for DNS SRV lookup, each Service Prefix is > concatenated (with a period as the label separator character) to the= > FQDN of the Service Domain the application is interested in. >=20 > Depending on application strategy and perhaps local policy > (configuration), the DNS queries with QCLASS=3DIN and QTYPE=3DSRV ca= n be > performed serially or in parallel -- to decrease the latency in the > case higher priority queries do not succeed in finding matching SRV > record(s). > > The answers obtained are processed as specified in RFC 2782 > [RFC2782], subject to the preferences of the service client for > transport and/or "substrate" protocols. If necessary, the Target > domain names obtained are then queried for address records (i.e., at= > the time of this writing, A and/or AAAA RRs) to determine the networ= k > layer addresses to be contacted over the corresponding transport > protocol using the port number contained in the 'Port' element of th= e > respective SRV record. >=20 > Note: RFC 2782 [RFC2782] on page 7 imprecisely indicates the client= > "[SHOULD] ... try to connect to the (protocol, address, service)"= > tuple. Since at the transport layer the port number needs to be > used, not the service (name?), and to let the order of the tuple >=20 >=20 >=20 > Gudmundsson & Hoenes Expires July 1, 2010 [Page 10= ] > =0C > Internet-Draft SRV Prefix Clarifications December 200= 9 >=20 >=20 > components follow the protocol layers, it should refer to > "(address, protocol, port)" tuples. >=20 > 5.1. Protocol Label Selection >=20 > Some services are defined to operate over only one transport > protocol. In this case the application MUST use the appropriate > transport label in forming the Service Prefix for SRV record lookup.= >=20 > If a service can operate over multiple transport protocols, then the= > specification of the service might indicate an order of preference, > or local policy may supply it. Any service can provide a specific > order in the Notes section of the "Service Names and Port Numbers" > registry, during registration or via registration update [RFCyyyy]. I don't agree; prioritization should be a property of the SRV records, not in the notes. This seems like an extension of the protocol. > Absent such information, the following priority order SHOULD be used= Absent what information? The "notes" aren't in the SRV records, so as such they ought to always be absent at the endpoint - so the rest of this is the only real recommendation here, and it's a tautology (endpoints should use only what they can use). > as appropriate, based on what transports are defined and registered > for the service, and supported by the client: _udp, _tcp, _sctp, > _dccp. >=20 > 5.2. Service Label Selection >=20 > Absent service specific documentation saying otherwise or hints > available to the client (e.g., by configuration), the following > recommendations SHOULD be followed. >=20 > If an application/service has a single registered Service Name, a > prospective client uses the Standard Service Label derived from it > according to Section 4. >=20 > Contrary to the strong recommendation in RFC 2782 [RFC2782], several= > legacy services have been assigned more than one Service Name in the= > past. For instance, the well-know "systat" service is also referred= > to as "users" service, the DNS service, "domain", is also referred t= o > as "nameserver" or "dns", "rlp" is also denoted as "resource", the > WhoIs service is identified by "whois" and "nicname", the web servic= e > uses "http" or "www", "kerberos" is also indicated by "kdc", and the= > PCMail service has been assigned the equivalent Service Names > "pcmail-srv" and "pcmail". > In all these cases, the "Service Names and Port Numbers" registry > will clearly indicate which name is the primary one and which names > are considered aliases. I don't see why this should be expected or is necessary, except for the deprecated names whose syntax needed to change based on the IANA ports doc. Please explain. > Unless a prospective client has specific hints available (e.g., by > configuration) indicating that a specific alias name ought to be > tried preferentially, the primary Service Name SHOULD be used, and i= t > also SHOULD be tried if the lookup of an alias name fails. I don't see what this accomplishes. It seems an unnecessarily restriction= =2E The rest of this section should be moved to the separate doc arguing for extended names... > If a service/application supports different well marked instances > identified by different Service Names or a related specification has= >=20 >=20 >=20 > Gudmundsson & Hoenes Expires July 1, 2010 [Page 11= ] > =0C > Internet-Draft SRV Prefix Clarifications December 200= 9 >=20 >=20 > introduced the usage of extended Service Labels for discovery of thi= s > service (e.g., making use of the scheme specified in Appendix A), th= e > specifications SHOULD always also define a single default service > instance, and hence a default Service Label or Service Name (that ca= n > be used to construct the the corresponding Standard Service Label). > Prospective clients MAY follow any service instance selection policy= > desired (by implementation, deployment, or configuration), but SHOUL= D > be prepared to fall back to the default service instance if the SRV > record lookup for preferred service instance(s) fails. >=20 >=20 > 6. Provisioning of SRV records >=20 > DNS zone administrators SHOULD support (and encourage) the > provisioning of SRV records related to the basic domains they manage= =2E > Dynamic DNS Update ([RFC2136], [RFC3007]) is an option, but this is > out of scope for this document. IMO, SRV provisioning ought to be outside the scope of this doc entirely. The rest of this section is not related to the indicated focus of this doc, and if needed should be in another (third) document. =2E.. > 7. Security Considerations >=20 > This document does not have any specific security implications. Agreed. > However it is hoped that the more orderly, and more frequent use of > SRV-based dynamic service discovery, based on the rules clarified in= > this documents and the establishment of a unified service registry, > will provide valuable information for administrators and security > policy makers, to the benefit of the overall security of the > Internet. I have no idea why this should be true; can you explain? The rest of this section can be omitted; it does not add to the first sentence of this entire section, which says it all IMO. > 8. IANA Considerations >=20 > This document has no IANA actions. >=20 >=20 > 9. References >=20 > 9.1. Normative References >=20 > [RFC2119] Bradner, S., "Key words for use in RFCs to Indicate > Requirement Levels", BCP 14, RFC 2119, March 1997. >=20 > [RFC2782] Gulbrandsen, A., Vixie, P., and L. Esibov, "A DNS RR for > specifying the location of services (DNS SRV)", RFC 2782,= > February 2000. >=20 > [RFC5234] Crocker, D. and P. Overell, "Augmented BNF for Syntax > Specifications: ABNF", STD 68, RFC 5234, January 2008. >=20 > [RFCyyyy] Cotton, M., Eggert, L., Mankin, A., Touch, J., and M. >=20 >=20 >=20 > Gudmundsson & Hoenes Expires July 1, 2010 [Page 13= ] > =0C > Internet-Draft SRV Prefix Clarifications December 200= 9 >=20 >=20 > Westerlund, "Internet Assigned Numbers Authority (IANA) > Procedures for the Management of the Service Name and > Transport Protocol Port Number Registry", > draft-ietf-tsvwg-iana-ports-04 (work in progress), > December 2009. >=20 > 9.2. Informative References >=20 > [RFC0768] Postel, J., "User Datagram Protocol", STD 6, RFC 768, > August 1980. >=20 > [RFC0793] Postel, J., "Transmission Control Protocol", STD 7, > RFC 793, September 1981. >=20 > [RFC2052] Gulbrandsen, A. and P. Vixie, "A DNS RR for specifying th= e > location of services (DNS SRV)", RFC 2052, October 1996. >=20 > [RFC2136] Vixie, P., Thomson, S., Rekhter, Y., and J. Bound, > "Dynamic Updates in the Domain Name System (DNS UPDATE)",= > RFC 2136, April 1997. >=20 > [RFC3007] Wellington, B., "Secure Domain Name System (DNS) Dynamic > Update", RFC 3007, November 2000. >=20 > [RFC3232] Reynolds, J., "Assigned Numbers: RFC 1700 is Replaced by > an On-line Database", RFC 3232, January 2002. >=20 > [RFC3828] Larzon, L-A., Degermark, M., Pink, S., Jonsson, L-E., and= > G. Fairhurst, "The Lightweight User Datagram Protocol > (UDP-Lite)", RFC 3828, July 2004. >=20 > [RFC4033] Arends, R., Austein, R., Larson, M., Massey, D., and S. > Rose, "DNS Security Introduction and Requirements", > RFC 4033, March 2005. >=20 > [RFC4340] Kohler, E., Handley, M., and S. Floyd, "Datagram > Congestion Control Protocol (DCCP)", RFC 4340, March 2006= =2E >=20 > [RFC4614] Duke, M., Braden, R., Eddy, W., and E. Blanton, "A Roadma= p > for Transmission Control Protocol (TCP) Specification > Documents", RFC 4614, September 2006. >=20 > [RFC4960] Stewart, R., "Stream Control Transmission Protocol", > RFC 4960, September 2007. >=20 > [RFC5237] Arkko, J. and S. Bradner, "IANA Allocation Guidelines for= > the Protocol Field", BCP 37, RFC 5237, February 2008. >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > Gudmundsson & Hoenes Expires July 1, 2010 [Page 14= ] > =0C > Internet-Draft SRV Prefix Clarifications December 200= 9 >=20 >=20 > [RFC5507] IAB, Faltstrom, P., Austein, R., and P. Koch, "Design > Choices When Expanding the DNS", RFC 5507, April 2009. >=20 >=20 > Appendix A. Extended SRV Service Labels >=20 > This non-normative Section defines a versatile extension scheme for > SRV Service Labels that can be incorporated by reference in > specifications of service discovery procedures for applications that= > cannot contend with Standard Service Labels as specified in > Section 4. >=20 > A.1. Motivation and Solution Space >=20 > Sections 2 and 4 identify scenarios of applications/services that > might reasonably wish to use an extended scheme for forming their > Service Labels, in particular to identify protocol layers > (encapsulation layers, "substrate" protocols) stacked between the > transport protocol and the application protocol itself, without > having to register a multitude of Service Names in the "Service Name= s > and Port Numbers" registry and hence being bound to the 15-character= > name size limit. Other scenarios with similar requirements have bee= n > mentioned in recent work-in-progress in the IETF. >=20 > For being useful, a scheme for extended Service Labels must allow (a= ) > to easily determine that a label obeys to this scheme and (b) to > unambiguously extract the underlying Service Name and the added > extension components (henceforth: Qualifiers) from the full label, > whereas at the same time the scheme needs to ensure that it does not= > pollute the name space of Service Names and that thereby the > uniqueness of registered Service Names is not disturbed. >=20 > As restated in Section 4, the syntax of Service Names from [RFCyyyy]= > does not allow the underscore ("_") character, which in turn already= > is used as a prefix character for SRV Service and Protocol Labels > serving to distinguish these labels from 'ordinary' domain name > components. Therefore, a manifest method to construct extended > Service Labels is to concatenate the given Service Name and > Qualifiers, prepending each component by an underscore character. >=20 > A.2. Specification >=20 > Thus, we arrive at the following syntax for Extended Service Labels,= > extending the ABNF from Section 4: >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > Gudmundsson & Hoenes Expires July 1, 2010 [Page 15= ] > =0C > Internet-Draft SRV Prefix Clarifications December 200= 9 >=20 >=20 > serv-label =3D/ ext-serv-label >=20 > ext-serv-label =3D USC service-name 1*( USC serv-qualifier ) > ; total size limited to 63 characters >=20 > serv-qualifier =3D 1*(l-d-h) > ; also conforming to the rule >=20 > Hypothetical example: > Assume an application with registered Service Name "foohoo" for > transport over SCTP is served for the domain "ext.example". Also= > assume that this service needs to be qualified by the keywords > (service qualifiers) (1) "barbar" and (2) "aanne". > Then the corresponding Extended SRV Service Label will be: >=20 > _fooho_barbar_aanne >=20 > and the full SRV owner name will be: >=20 > _fooho_barbar_aanne._sctp.ext.example >=20 > Application designers who want to make use of this scheme need to > precisely document the values supported and refer > normatively to this section. Any such specification SHOULD indicate= > a mandatory-to-implement default form of the service that will be > represented by the Standard Service Label for this service, per > Section 4. This allows for an easy fallback strategy for clients of= > such service that are not interested in particular variants of the > service, or when the service variant preferred by the client is not > offered at a particular Service Domain and hence not represented by > an SRV record in the DNS. > Absent such application-specific documentation, always the Standard > Service Labels specified in Section 4 are used. >=20 > A.3. Applicability >=20 > Each application/service making use of this mechanism inherits from > its registered Service Name a distinct namespace, and its designers > must manage this 'private' namespace of valid Extended Service Label= s > according to their needs. For instance, there is no central IANA > registry for such namespaces. The application is still identified b= y > its Service Name, and the related leading standard Service Label par= t > is to be used for policy decisions. >=20 > If the service qualifiers are used to indicate intermediate layers, > the application-specific service discovery specification SHOULD > specify that the qualifiers be given in protocol stacking order; if > substrate protocols used have their own registered Service Name, it >=20 >=20 >=20 > Gudmundsson & Hoenes Expires July 1, 2010 [Page 16= ] > =0C > Internet-Draft SRV Prefix Clarifications December 200= 9 >=20 >=20 > is strongly RECOMMENDED that these Service Names be used to identify= > the corresponding qualifiers. >=20 > The companion document [TBD] contains examples of legacy use cases > specified in the IETF that preferably should migrate to this scheme > and thereby, it instantiates these recommendations. >=20 >=20 > Authors' Addresses >=20 > Olafur Gudmundsson > Shinkuro Inc. > 4922 Fairmont Avenue, Suite 250 > Bethesda, MD 20814 > USA >=20 > Email: ogud@ogud.com >=20 >=20 > Alfred Hoenes > TR-Sys > Gerlinger Str. 12 > Ditzingen D-71254 > Germany >=20 > Email: ah@TR-Sys.de >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > Gudmundsson & Hoenes Expires July 1, 2010 [Page 17= ] > =0C --------------enig784C8AD06B03EE4661588AE2 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (MingW32) iEYEARECAAYFAktt8S0ACgkQE5f5cImnZrtPvQCg9m+BaST1GZAuSOv5g8BWBMr3 09cAoP1IUUU/9KgmYws7eeEkOIr6ETsZ =4kw4 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enig784C8AD06B03EE4661588AE2-- From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Thu Feb 11 08:27:31 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9C3D28C1E0; Thu, 11 Feb 2010 08:27:31 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.413 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.413 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RCVD_ILLEGAL_IP=1.908, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RBp66k9g5lCy; Thu, 11 Feb 2010 08:27:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CECC728C1CA; Thu, 11 Feb 2010 08:27:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NfbpP-000EV4-Q7 for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Thu, 11 Feb 2010 16:23:43 +0000 Received: from [66.92.146.20] (helo=stora.ogud.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NfbpK-000EUP-Gm for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 11 Feb 2010 16:23:40 +0000 Received: from Work-Laptop-2.local (gatt.md.ogud.com [10.20.30.6]) by stora.ogud.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o1BGNXDU050321; Thu, 11 Feb 2010 11:23:34 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from Ed.Lewis@neustar.biz) Received: from [0.0.0.0] by Work-Laptop-2.local (PGP Universal service); Thu, 11 Feb 2010 11:23:35 -0500 X-PGP-Universal: processed; by Work-Laptop-2.local on Thu, 11 Feb 2010 11:23:35 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <4B6DF12D.9070808@isi.edu> References: <200912281732.SAA12969@TR-Sys.de> <4B6DF12D.9070808@isi.edu> Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2010 11:22:02 -0500 To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org From: Edward Lewis Subject: [dnsext] Clarifications that do more than clarify was Re:...-srv- Cc: ed.lewis@neustar.biz Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.67 on 10.20.30.4 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: At 14:46 -0800 2/6/10, Joe Touch wrote (about the srv clarifications doc): >I don't think adding an extension "clarifies"; this doc ought to focus >on the clarification issue, and would be useful if doing so. Where have I heard that before? Hmmm, wildcard-clarify. Oh, and axfr-clarify. Yes, I was guilty in both those cases. I'm concerned about this "trend" (three instances!), the lack of progress of DNS specifications along the standards track, the problems we have every time we try to extend DNS, and a case study in another protocol's rise to Full Standard only to be met with a community wishing for significant changes in it. The case study is interesting. This protocol went from 0 to Full Standard within the 2000's, each advance according to the strict guidelines of the IETF process. At each level, the protocol definition was trimmed to just what was needed in the specification and never expanded. All was cool until the process ended with Full Standard and a community that found that the protocol could be so much more useful if only ... a few extensions were made. This is the opposite of where we are with DNS. DNS keeps evolving, changing, but not progressing it's extensions to Full Standard. (Yes, RFC 1034/5 are a Full Standard, elevated a long time ago.) Our bis documents never get us to the next level. (wildcard-clarify and axfr-clarify both hacked at the Full Standard document itself - but will they get promoted?) The question is - should we give up on "clarifications" and resign ourselves to re-writing an extension (such as the SRV resource record definition) at Proposed standard until we get it right before trying to promote the specification to the next level? (DNAME, EDNS0, ...) Are we afraid to admit something wasn't engineered right the first time? I think that's the case and seeing this in the problem with trying to ever change the protocol. Heck, even just extend the protocol. -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Edward Lewis NeuStar You can leave a voice message at +1-571-434-5468 As with IPv6, the problem with the deployment of frictionless surfaces is that they're not getting traction. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Thu Feb 11 09:14:41 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35FB43A73F5; Thu, 11 Feb 2010 09:14:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.617 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.617 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.744, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id At5KKYSNx81C; Thu, 11 Feb 2010 09:14:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0BD713A7375; Thu, 11 Feb 2010 09:14:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NfcZU-000JTu-2F for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Thu, 11 Feb 2010 17:11:20 +0000 Received: from [209.85.222.200] (helo=mail-pz0-f200.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NfcZR-000JTe-Ak for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 11 Feb 2010 17:11:17 +0000 Received: by pzk38 with SMTP id 38so1844316pzk.9 for ; Thu, 11 Feb 2010 09:11:16 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.114.2.19 with SMTP id 19mr62866wab.211.1265908276161; Thu, 11 Feb 2010 09:11:16 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <200912281732.SAA12969@TR-Sys.de> <4B6DF12D.9070808@isi.edu> Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2010 09:11:16 -0800 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [dnsext] Clarifications that do more than clarify was Re:...-srv- From: Matthew Dempsky To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On Thu, Feb 11, 2010 at 8:22 AM, Edward Lewis wrote: > Where have I heard that before? =A0Hmmm, wildcard-clarify. =A0Oh, and > axfr-clarify. =A0Yes, I was guilty in both those cases. > > I'm concerned about this "trend" (three instances!), the lack of progress= of > DNS specifications along the standards track, the problems we have every > time we try to extend DNS, and a case study in another protocol's rise to > Full Standard only to be met with a community wishing for significant > changes in it. It sounds like you fully realize why your efforts at extending DNS are not reaching Full Standard: because you keep trying to mask them as "clarifications". From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Thu Feb 11 10:10:58 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 764B428C207; Thu, 11 Feb 2010 10:10:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.413 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.413 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_ILLEGAL_IP=1.908, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jYJ8nEh6VXbZ; Thu, 11 Feb 2010 10:10:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D833F3A73F1; Thu, 11 Feb 2010 10:10:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NfdPw-000PAF-I3 for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Thu, 11 Feb 2010 18:05:32 +0000 Received: from [66.92.146.20] (helo=stora.ogud.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NfdPq-000P9H-RW for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 11 Feb 2010 18:05:27 +0000 Received: from Work-Laptop-2.local (gatt.md.ogud.com [10.20.30.6]) by stora.ogud.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o1BI5Ilv051105; Thu, 11 Feb 2010 13:05:21 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from Ed.Lewis@neustar.biz) Received: from [0.0.0.0] by Work-Laptop-2.local (PGP Universal service); Thu, 11 Feb 2010 13:05:23 -0500 X-PGP-Universal: processed; by Work-Laptop-2.local on Thu, 11 Feb 2010 13:05:23 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <200912281732.SAA12969@TR-Sys.de> <4B6DF12D.9070808@isi.edu> Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2010 13:05:16 -0500 To: Matthew Dempsky From: Edward Lewis Subject: Re: [dnsext] Clarifications that do more than clarify was Re:...-srv- Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="============_-946210973==_ma============" X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.67 on 10.20.30.4 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: --============_-946210973==_ma============ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" At 9:11 -0800 2/11/10, Matthew Dempsky wrote: >It sounds like you fully realize why your efforts at extending DNS are >not reaching Full Standard: because you keep trying to mask them as >"clarifications". I wouldn't use "mask" but certainly titling the documents as clarifications isn't accurate. We realized this while handling comments from Dan Bernstein, one result is that RFC 4592 does not use clarify in the title and has this phrase "this document is meant to clarify and adjust and not redefine." As far as why it hasn't been advanced, I haven't tried and no has asked me to. As far as AXFR, the only appearance of "clarify" is in the file name, it isn't in the title nor any text that will remain in once it (if ever) makes RFC. The title is "DNS Zone Transfer Protocol (AXFR)." Again, had been many issues raised by Dan Bernstein about the early versions of the document. When I took over the document, I found, in my opinion, most if not all were already addressed although I could not confirm this with Dan (I couldn't find an email contact for him that still worked). If you look at the history, -05 had Clarifications in the title, from -06 onward, any reference to being a clarification was dropped in recognition that the document wasn't just clarifying the protocol mechanism. (But in the IETF mechanisms you can't change the file name of a draft.) The "masking" as a (mere) clarification wasn't an attempt to sneak in updates, rather it reflected a misuse of the term. Intent aside, we did mislabel them as clarifications and need to recognize when we are indeed trying to change something. Thinking of an other "clarification" document - RFC 2181. That's where we probably fell into the misuse of the term "clarification." That document may not be "guilty" but it is one of the most important documents in understanding DNS protocol today. It includes a few concepts not found in RFC 1034/1035 (DNSSEC for one), so is it a clarification or part of an extension? (Rhetorical.) -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Edward Lewis NeuStar You can leave a voice message at +1-571-434-5468 As with IPv6, the problem with the deployment of frictionless surfaces is that they're not getting traction. --============_-946210973==_ma============ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Re: [dnsext] Clarifications that do more than clarify was
At 9:11 -0800 2/11/10, Matthew Dempsky wrote:

>It sounds like you fully realize why your efforts at extending DNS are
>not reaching Full Standard: because you keep trying to mask them as
>"clarifications".

I wouldn't use "mask" but certainly titling the documents as clarifications isn't accurate.  We realized this while handling comments from Dan Bernstein, one result is that RFC 4592 does not use clarify in the title and has this phrase "this document is meant to clarify and adjust and not redefine."  As far as why it hasn't been advanced, I haven't tried and no has asked me to.

As far as AXFR, the only appearance of "clarify" is in the file name, it isn't in the title nor any text that will remain in once it (if ever) makes RFC.  The title is "DNS Zone Transfer Protocol (AXFR)."  Again, had been many issues raised by Dan Bernstein about the early versions of the document.  When I took over the document, I found, in my opinion, most if not all were already addressed although I could not confirm this with Dan (I couldn't find an email contact for him that still worked).  If you look at the history, -05 had Clarifications in the title, from -06 onward, any reference to being a clarification was dropped in recognition that the document wasn't just clarifying the protocol mechanism.  (But in the IETF mechanisms you can't change the file name of a draft.)

The "masking" as a (mere) clarification wasn't an attempt to sneak in updates, rather it reflected a misuse of the term.  Intent aside, we did mislabel them as clarifications and need to recognize when we are indeed trying to change something.

Thinking of an other "clarification" document - RFC 2181.  That's where we probably fell into the misuse of the term "clarification."  That document may not be "guilty" but it is one of the most important documents in understanding DNS protocol today.  It includes a few concepts not found in RFC 1034/1035 (DNSSEC for one), so is it a clarification or part of an extension?  (Rhetorical.)
--
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Edward Lewis             
NeuStar                    You can leave a voice message at +1-571-434-5468

As with IPv6, the problem with the deployment of frictionless surfaces is
that they're not getting traction.
--============_-946210973==_ma============-- From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Thu Feb 11 13:08:55 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 308B33A7519; Thu, 11 Feb 2010 13:08:55 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.953 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.953 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.646, BAYES_00=-2.599, MISSING_HEADERS=1.292] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bdisbCFKPXst; Thu, 11 Feb 2010 13:08:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5ACDA3A6F65; Thu, 11 Feb 2010 13:08:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NfgCF-000HQ6-0p for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Thu, 11 Feb 2010 21:03:35 +0000 Received: from [2001:4f8:3:bb::5] (helo=farside.isc.org) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NfgCC-000HPi-Oi for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 11 Feb 2010 21:03:32 +0000 Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (drugs.dv.isc.org [IPv6:2001:470:1f00:820:214:22ff:fed9:fbdc]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "drugs.dv.isc.org", Issuer "ISC CA" (not verified)) by farside.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0AD3BE601C for ; Thu, 11 Feb 2010 21:03:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marka@isc.org) Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by drugs.dv.isc.org (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o1BL3TpK017345 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 08:03:29 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from marka@drugs.dv.isc.org) Message-Id: <201002112103.o1BL3TpK017345@drugs.dv.isc.org> Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org From: Mark Andrews References: <20100210203314.GV5187@shinkuro.com> <352AAD51-8B29-4C96-B126-DF5EE77B866E@cisco.com> <20100210224746.GA5187@shinkuro.com> <20100211135320.GA9592@shinkuro.com> Subject: Re: [dnsext] DNS64 and SRV records In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 11 Feb 2010 08:53:20 CDT." <20100211135320.GA9592@shinkuro.com> Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 08:03:29 +1100 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: One doesn't synthesis the additional section as you don't know if there are real AAAA records or not and we don't do extra work to find out. In a non DNS64 case you wouldn't go and make AAAA queries so you shouldn't in the DNS64 case. If the client wants AAAA records it will ask for them and you can do the AAAA and A queries then as required. Additional processing is "fill in with what you have". Mark -- Mark Andrews, ISC 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: marka@isc.org From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Thu Feb 11 14:18:02 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B2733A6F19; Thu, 11 Feb 2010 14:18:02 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.587 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.587 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.987, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_INFO=1.448, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id G-dK43CpNEKM; Thu, 11 Feb 2010 14:18:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3236E3A68C3; Thu, 11 Feb 2010 14:18:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NfhHy-0005hM-Dx for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Thu, 11 Feb 2010 22:13:34 +0000 Received: from [208.86.224.201] (helo=mail.yitter.info) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:CAMELLIA256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NfhHs-0005dU-7O for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 11 Feb 2010 22:13:28 +0000 Received: from crankycanuck.ca (69-196-144-230.dsl.teksavvy.com [69.196.144.230]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.yitter.info (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 592881ECB4E8 for ; Thu, 11 Feb 2010 22:13:26 +0000 (UTC) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2010 17:13:24 -0500 From: Andrew Sullivan To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: [dnsext] Results of WGLC: draft-ietf-dnsext-dnssec-alg-allocation Message-ID: <20100211221324.GL9592@shinkuro.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="WYTEVAkct0FjGQmd" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: --WYTEVAkct0FjGQmd Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Dear colleagues, The WGLC for draft-ietf-dnsext-dnssec-alg-allocation has completed, with widespread support for publication. The editor has incorporated feedback from the WGLC, and nobody has objected to the document as it stands. I'm attaching the PROTO write-up, and will forward this to the IESG with a request for publication. Thanks to Paul for his work on this, and to all the reviewers! A -- Andrew Sullivan ajs@shinkuro.com Shinkuro, Inc. --WYTEVAkct0FjGQmd Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="dnsext-dnssec-alg-allocation-proto.txt" (1.a) Who is the Document Shepherd for this document? Has the Document Shepherd personally reviewed this version of the document and, in particular, does he or she believe this version is ready for forwarding to the IESG for publication? Andrew Sullivan. I have reviewed the document, and I believe it is ready for forwarding. (1.b) Has the document had adequate review both from key WG members and from key non-WG members? Does the Document Shepherd have any concerns about the depth or breadth of the reviews that have been performed? The document has been adequately reviewed in my opinion. (1.c) Does the Document Shepherd have concerns that the document needs more review from a particular or broader perspective, e.g., security, operational complexity, someone familiar with AAA, internationalization or XML? No. (1.d) Does the Document Shepherd have any specific concerns or issues with this document that the Responsible Area Director and/or the IESG should be aware of? For example, perhaps he or she is uncomfortable with certain parts of the document, or has concerns whether there really is a need for it. In any event, if the WG has discussed those issues and has indicated that it still wishes to advance the document, detail those concerns here. Has an IPR disclosure related to this document been filed? If so, please include a reference to the disclosure and summarize the WG discussion and conclusion on this issue. No. (1.e) How solid is the WG consensus behind this document? Does it represent the strong concurrence of a few individuals, with others being silent, or does the WG as a whole understand and agree with it? The reviews were uniformly positive, and suggested changes from WGLC were incorporated. (1.f) Has anyone threatened an appeal or otherwise indicated extreme discontent? If so, please summarise the areas of conflict in separate email messages to the Responsible Area Director. (It should be in a separate email because this questionnaire is entered into the ID Tracker.) No. (1.g) Has the Document Shepherd personally verified that the document satisfies all ID nits? (See the Internet-Drafts Checklist and http://tools.ietf.org/tools/idnits/). Boilerplate checks are not enough; this check needs to be thorough. Has the document met all formal review criteria it needs to, such as the MIB Doctor, media type and URI type reviews? There is an RFC 2119-style SHOULD that will be fixed to be lower case after IETF last call. The document currently uses 12 Sept 2009 boilerplate. It includes a disclaimer for for pre-RFC537 that is appropriate, I believe, because there may have been discussions of this approach when the current (standards track) requirement for algorithm assignment happened. (1.h) Has the document split its references into normative and informative? Are there normative references to documents that are not ready for advancement or are otherwise in an unclear state? If such normative references exist, what is the strategy for their completion? Are there normative references that are downward references, as described in [RFC3967]? If so, list these downward references to support the Area Director in the Last Call procedure for them [RFC3967]. The references are split appropriately. Some Normative references are to obsolete RFCs, but they need to be because of the way the IANA registry is defined. (1.i) Has the Document Shepherd verified that the document IANA consideration section exists and is consistent with the body of the document? If the document specifies protocol extensions, are reservations requested in appropriate IANA registries? Are the IANA registries clearly identified? If the document creates a new registry, does it define the proposed initial contents of the registry and an allocation procedure for future registrations? Does it suggest a reasonable name for the new registry? See [RFC5226]. If the document describes an Expert Review process has Shepherd conferred with the Responsible Area Director so that the IESG can appoint the needed Expert during the IESG Evaluation? Yes. (1.j) Has the Document Shepherd verified that sections of the document that are written in a formal language, such as XML code, BNF rules, MIB definitions, etc., validate correctly in an automated checker? N/A (1.k) The IESG approval announcement includes a Document Announcement Write-Up. Please provide such a Document Announcement Write-Up? Recent examples can be found in the "Action" announcements for approved documents. The approval announcement contains the following sections: Technical Summary This document alters the requirements for DNSSEC algorithm identifiers from "standards action" to "RFC required". Working Group Summary The DNS Extensions Working Group reviewed the document. There was considerable discussion at the time of adoption, but almost exclusively support at the time of WGLC. Some LC comments resulted in a substantive change, which was to reserve a portion of the registry so as to avoid exhaustion. Document Quality The change suggested during WGLC ensures that the IANA registry will not be exhausted because nobody thought to revisit these procedures if the assumption about infrequent addition of algorithms turns out to be false. --WYTEVAkct0FjGQmd-- From panopliessb262@kekoldi.com Thu Feb 11 17:01:29 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1AB9D3A70FC; Thu, 11 Feb 2010 17:01:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -25.417 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-25.417 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HELO_DYNAMIC_HCC=4.295, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2=4.395, HELO_EQ_BR=0.955, HELO_EQ_DSL=1.129, HELO_EQ_TELESP=1.245, HOST_EQ_BR=1.295, HTML_FONT_FACE_BAD=0.884, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_RECV_SPAM_DOMN02=1.666, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.931, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id b7gsEn+47cjf; Thu, 11 Feb 2010 17:01:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from 201-92-53-168.dsl.telesp.net.br (201-92-53-168.dsl.telesp.net.br [201.92.53.168]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3FCD3A6C7F; Thu, 11 Feb 2010 17:01:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from 201.92.53.168 by kekoldi.com; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 01:02:40 +0000 Message-ID: <000d01caab7f$130177a0$6400a8c0@panopliessb262> From: dnsext-archive@ietf.org To: Subject: Russian wives are the best. 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------=_NextPart_000_0007_01CAAB7F.130177A0-- From dnsop-bounces@ietf.org Thu Feb 11 17:01:30 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dnsext-archive@ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A5A43A7446 for ; Thu, 11 Feb 2010 17:01:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: The results of your email commands From: dnsop-bounces@ietf.org To: dnsext-archive@ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1698562499==" Message-ID: Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2010 17:01:29 -0800 Precedence: bulk X-BeenThere: dnsop@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 List-Id: IETF DNSOP WG mailing list X-List-Administrivia: yes Sender: dnsop-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: dnsop-bounces@ietf.org --===============1698562499== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The results of your email command are provided below. Attached is your original message. - Results: Ignoring non-text/plain MIME parts - Done. --===============1698562499== Content-Type: message/rfc822 MIME-Version: 1.0 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dnsop-request@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: dnsop-request@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1AB9D3A70FC; Thu, 11 Feb 2010 17:01:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -25.417 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-25.417 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HELO_DYNAMIC_HCC=4.295, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2=4.395, HELO_EQ_BR=0.955, HELO_EQ_DSL=1.129, HELO_EQ_TELESP=1.245, HOST_EQ_BR=1.295, HTML_FONT_FACE_BAD=0.884, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_RECV_SPAM_DOMN02=1.666, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.931, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id b7gsEn+47cjf; Thu, 11 Feb 2010 17:01:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from 201-92-53-168.dsl.telesp.net.br (201-92-53-168.dsl.telesp.net.br [201.92.53.168]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3FCD3A6C7F; Thu, 11 Feb 2010 17:01:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from 201.92.53.168 by kekoldi.com; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 01:02:40 +0000 Message-ID: <000d01caab7f$130177a0$6400a8c0@panopliessb262> From: dnsext-archive@ietf.org To: Subject: Russian wives are the best. Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 01:02:40 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0007_01CAAB7F.130177A0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1807 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE 6.00.2800.1807 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01CAAB7F.130177A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable If you are disappointed in its second half, bold, come in! Please Visit Us ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01CAAB7F.130177A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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------=_NextPart_000_0007_01CAAB7F.172B4B30-- From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Thu Feb 11 17:36:25 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A168F3A74D8; Thu, 11 Feb 2010 17:36:25 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.237 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.237 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.742, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xuVlwye5-qvI; Thu, 11 Feb 2010 17:36:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8DF753A6CA8; Thu, 11 Feb 2010 17:36:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NfkMw-0005jw-J0 for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 01:30:54 +0000 Received: from [204.14.89.4] (helo=mail2.fluidhosting.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NfkMt-0005ja-Sn for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 01:30:52 +0000 Received: (qmail 20314 invoked by uid 399); 12 Feb 2010 01:30:50 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO foreign.dougb.net) (dougb@dougbarton.us@127.0.0.1) by localhost with ESMTPAM; 12 Feb 2010 01:30:50 -0000 X-Originating-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-Sender: dougb@dougbarton.us Message-ID: <4B74AF5F.2050107@dougbarton.us> Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2010 17:31:11 -0800 From: Doug Barton Organization: http://SupersetSolutions.com/ User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; FreeBSD i386; en-US; rv:1.9.1.7) Gecko/20100123 Thunderbird/3.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Andrew Sullivan CC: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] DNS64 and SRV records References: <20100210203314.GV5187@shinkuro.com> <20100211094136.GA29373@vacation.karoshi.com.> <20100211135726.GB9592@shinkuro.com> In-Reply-To: <20100211135726.GB9592@shinkuro.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.0 OpenPGP: id=D5B2F0FB Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On 02/11/10 05:57, Andrew Sullivan wrote: > On Thu, Feb 11, 2010 at 09:41:36AM +0000, bmanning@vacation.karoshi.com wrote: > >> I suspect your proposed changes are worse than doing requeries. >> and yes - there are some client code that won't re-query. > > If we just truncate the Additional section, what additional harm can > come? ... > because under the scenario we're imagining, there's no additional > that's useful Assuming a situation where there is no IPv4 connectivity on the network that is served by the DNS64 resolver stripping A records from ADDITIONAL seems reasonable. Otherwise I agree with Mark, ADDITIONAL should not be tampered with. As for the concern regarding clients that won't re-query for AAAAs, my feeling is that people who deploy IPv6-only networks will be doing so with the knowledge that there will be tradeoffs, and that problems like this don't have solutions in the DNS space. Doug -- ... and that's just a little bit of history repeating. -- Propellerheads Improve the effectiveness of your Internet presence with a domain name makeover! http://SupersetSolutions.com/ From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Fri Feb 12 04:02:11 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A45233A67C1; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 04:02:11 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.75 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.75 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, HELO_MISMATCH_DE=1.448, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SGSY-Kt4nG0A; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 04:02:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA5DA3A69F4; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 04:02:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nfu7a-000B0W-T2 for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 11:55:42 +0000 Received: from [212.9.189.167] (helo=mail.enyo.de) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nfu7Y-000B0B-7N for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 11:55:40 +0000 Received: from deneb.vpn.enyo.de ([212.9.189.177] helo=deneb.enyo.de) by mail.enyo.de with esmtp id 1Nfu7U-0002AT-02; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 12:55:36 +0100 Received: from fw by deneb.enyo.de with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1NftaM-00049j-Tj; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 12:21:22 +0100 From: Florian Weimer To: Mark Andrews Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] Comments on draft-ietf-dnsext-dnssec-bis-updates-09 References: <87tyzgqgxf.fsf@mid.deneb.enyo.de> <200909080729.n887T3AX026714@drugs.dv.isc.org> <87bpllmech.fsf@mid.deneb.enyo.de> <200909090237.n892bQ7V042388@drugs.dv.isc.org> Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 12:21:22 +0100 In-Reply-To: <200909090237.n892bQ7V042388@drugs.dv.isc.org> (Mark Andrews's message of "Wed, 09 Sep 2009 12:37:26 +1000") Message-ID: <878way8zt9.fsf@mid.deneb.enyo.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: * Mark Andrews: > In message <87bpllmech.fsf@mid.deneb.enyo.de>, Florian Weimer writes: >> But RFC 4035 says this in section 3.2.2: >> >> | If the resolver side implements a BAD cache (see Section 4.7) and the >> | name server side receives a query that matches an entry in the >> | resolver side's BAD cache, the name server side's response depends on >> | the state of the CD bit in the original query. If the CD bit is set, >> | the name server side SHOULD return the data from the BAD cache; if >> | the CD bit is not set, the name server side MUST return RCODE 2 >> | (server failure). >> >> The latter case appears to be the relevant one to me, so I still don't >> see how the advice in section 4.8 of the draft matters in practice. > > You still need to make upstream queries to populate either the > normal cache or a BAD cache (assuming you have one). Anything in > a BAD cache would have had CD=1 on the upstream query because to > enter the BAD cache it had to fail validation and to validate you > make CD=1 queries. The latter part feels bad and is quite surprising. Is it really desirable to potentially reduce security when running validation yourself? (Assuming that the ISP resolver validates, too, and puts more effort into it, therefore having more trust anchors to work with.) From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Fri Feb 12 08:15:02 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18D6E3A6A8A; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 08:15:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.588 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.588 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.988, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_INFO=1.448, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id X2MIpr2rsgRZ; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 08:14:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C51233A6A10; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 08:14:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nfy4q-000Fv3-N7 for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 16:09:08 +0000 Received: from [208.86.224.201] (helo=mail.yitter.info) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:CAMELLIA256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nfy4n-000FuV-5R for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 16:09:05 +0000 Received: from crankycanuck.ca (69-196-144-230.dsl.teksavvy.com [69.196.144.230]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.yitter.info (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 2392A1ECB4E8 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 16:09:01 +0000 (UTC) Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 11:08:59 -0500 From: Andrew Sullivan To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] DNS64 and SRV records Message-ID: <20100212160859.GE14996@shinkuro.com> References: <20100210203314.GV5187@shinkuro.com> <20100211094136.GA29373@vacation.karoshi.com.> <20100211135726.GB9592@shinkuro.com> <4B74AF5F.2050107@dougbarton.us> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4B74AF5F.2050107@dougbarton.us> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On Thu, Feb 11, 2010 at 05:31:11PM -0800, Doug Barton wrote: > > Assuming a situation where there is no IPv4 connectivity on the network > that is served by the DNS64 resolver stripping A records from ADDITIONAL > seems reasonable. You can't assume that. There is no way to be sure that the NAT64-using client does not also have a native v4 connection. That said, the plain fact is that the NAT64 is likely to get used anyway under that condiiton, and anyone who sets things up this way is just mistaken (and the A in the additional probably wouldn't help). Most resolvers query for AAAA first, so that's what they'll get. > As for the concern regarding clients that won't re-query for AAAAs, my > feeling is that people who deploy IPv6-only networks will be doing so > with the knowledge that there will be tradeoffs, and that problems like > this don't have solutions in the DNS space. If only. If they knew that, we wouldn't be attempting to fix NAT-PT. A -- Andrew Sullivan ajs@shinkuro.com Shinkuro, Inc. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Fri Feb 12 10:47:49 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 069323A7870; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 10:47:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.585 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.585 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.985, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_INFO=1.448, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AItHZ632E6h4; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 10:47:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20AE73A784F; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 10:47:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ng0Tq-0005Jl-2l for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 18:43:06 +0000 Received: from [208.86.224.201] (helo=mail.yitter.info) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:CAMELLIA256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ng0Tm-0005JL-Uo for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 18:43:03 +0000 Received: from crankycanuck.ca (69-196-144-230.dsl.teksavvy.com [69.196.144.230]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.yitter.info (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 9944D1ECB4E8 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 18:43:01 +0000 (UTC) Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 13:43:00 -0500 From: Andrew Sullivan To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: [dnsext] Re: DNS64 and SRV records Message-ID: <20100212184259.GN14996@shinkuro.com> References: <20100210201252.GS5187@shinkuro.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20100210201252.GS5187@shinkuro.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: Thanks for the feedback, everyone. I have concluded we should still leave the Additional section alone. Here's some additional text that I propose to make clearer the reasoning:
DNS64 synthesis MUST NOT be performed on any records in the additional section of synthesized answers. The DNS64 MUST pass the additional section unchanged. It may appear that adding synthetic records to the additional section is desirable, because clients sometimes use the data in the additional section to proceed without having to re-query. There is in general no promise, however, that the additional section will contain all the relevant records, so any client that depends on the additional section being able to satisfy its needs (i.e. without additional queries) is automatically broken. An IPv6-only client that needs a AAAA record, therefore, will send a query for the necessary AAAA record if it is unable to find such a record in the additional section of an answer it is consuming. The alternative, of removing the A records in the additional section and replacing them with synthetic AAAA records, may cause a host behind a NAT64 to query directly a nameserver that is unaware of the NAT64 in question. The result in this case will be resolution failure anyway, only later in the resolution operation. I'll assume there's no objection unless I hear otherwise. A -- Andrew Sullivan ajs@shinkuro.com Shinkuro, Inc. From bukharaq@eiti.com Fri Feb 12 11:08:41 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF38428C1B0; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 11:08:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -80.536 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-80.536 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FB_GET_MEDS=2.75, FH_FAKE_RCVD_LINE_B=5.777, HELO_DYNAMIC_HCC=4.295, HELO_EQ_MODEMCABLE=0.768, HOST_EQ_MODEMCABLE=1.368, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BuZarX5695yi; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 11:08:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from cpc8-smal12-0-0-cust86.perr.cable.virginmedia.com (cpc8-smal12-0-0-cust86.perr.cable.virginmedia.com [77.101.130.87]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A63A93A7734; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 11:08:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from 77.101.130.87 by smarthost1.giacom.net; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 19:09:55 +0000 Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 19:09:55 +0000 From: discuss-bounces@ietf.org Subject: Do it like a Cazanova To: Message-ID: <000d01caac16$f6141650$6400a8c0@bukharaq> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal Got obstacles with ordering medicaments to your house? Our online-store is intended for helping you! Submit your purchase here and get your package to your apartment the same day. We don't bother about prescription, but we care about confidentiality of delivery and transactions http://img710.imageshack.us/img710/6946/eichhorst.swf From degradesv@devi-yoga.com Fri Feb 12 14:41:28 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C52F628C147; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 14:41:28 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -70.375 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-70.375 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HELO_DYNAMIC_HCC=4.295, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2=4.395, HELO_EQ_BR=0.955, HELO_EQ_DSL=1.129, HOST_EQ_BR=1.295, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.931, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id q2IcSwkjq3Bb; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 14:41:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from 201-40-187-130.paemt700.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br (201-40-187-130.paemt700.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br [201.40.187.130]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA46A3A78F9; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 14:41:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from 201.40.187.130 by devi-yoga.com; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 20:42:35 -0300 Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 20:42:35 -0300 From: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: Set love energy to max To: Message-ID: <000d01caac34$ab9cb050$6400a8c0@degradesv> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-2"; reply-type=original Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal Got troubles with receiving cures to your place? Our Internet-portal is aimed for helping you! Place your order here and get your package to your house the same day. We don't bother about prescription, but we care about confidentiality of delivery and transactions http://img715.imageshack.us/img715/9205/miyaharaa.swf From dnsop-bounces@ietf.org Fri Feb 12 14:41:30 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DF0228C1D8 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 14:41:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: The results of your email commands From: dnsop-bounces@ietf.org To: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0764230180==" Message-ID: Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 14:41:29 -0800 Precedence: bulk X-BeenThere: dnsop@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 List-Id: IETF DNSOP WG mailing list X-List-Administrivia: yes Sender: dnsop-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: dnsop-bounces@ietf.org --===============0764230180== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The results of your email command are provided below. Attached is your original message. - Results: Bad set command: love set help Show this detailed help. set show [address=
] View your current option settings. If you're posting from an address other than your membership address, specify your membership address with `address=
' (no brackets around the email address, and no quotes!). set authenticate [address=
] To set any of your options, you must include this command first, along with your membership password. If you're posting from an address other than your membership address, specify your membership address with `address=
' (no brackets around the email address, and no quotes!). set ack on set ack off When the `ack' option is turned on, you will receive an acknowledgement message whenever you post a message to the list. set digest plain set digest mime set digest off When the `digest' option is turned off, you will receive postings immediately when they are posted. Use `set digest plain' if instead you want to receive postings bundled into a plain text digest (i.e. RFC 1153 digest). Use `set digest mime' if instead you want to receive postings bundled together into a MIME digest. set delivery on set delivery off Turn delivery on or off. This does not unsubscribe you, but instead tells Mailman not to deliver messages to you for now. This is useful if you're going on vacation. Be sure to use `set delivery on' when you return from vacation! set myposts on set myposts off Use `set myposts off' to not receive copies of messages you post to the list. This has no effect if you're receiving digests. set hide on set hide off Use `set hide on' to conceal your email address when people request the membership list. set duplicates on set duplicates off Use `set duplicates off' if you want Mailman to not send you messages if your address is explicitly mentioned in the To: or Cc: fields of the message. This can reduce the number of duplicate postings you will receive. set reminders on set reminders off Use `set reminders off' if you want to disable the monthly password reminder for this mailing list. - Unprocessed: Our Internet-portal is aimed for helping you! Place your order here and get your package to your house the same day. We don't bother about prescription, but we care about confidentiality of delivery and transactions http://img715.imageshack.us/img715/9205/miyaharaa.swf - Done. --===============0764230180== Content-Type: message/rfc822 MIME-Version: 1.0 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dnsop-request@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: dnsop-request@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C52F628C147; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 14:41:28 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -70.375 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-70.375 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HELO_DYNAMIC_HCC=4.295, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2=4.395, HELO_EQ_BR=0.955, HELO_EQ_DSL=1.129, HOST_EQ_BR=1.295, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.931, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id q2IcSwkjq3Bb; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 14:41:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from 201-40-187-130.paemt700.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br (201-40-187-130.paemt700.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br [201.40.187.130]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA46A3A78F9; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 14:41:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from 201.40.187.130 by devi-yoga.com; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 20:42:35 -0300 Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 20:42:35 -0300 From: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: Set love energy to max To: Message-ID: <000d01caac34$ab9cb050$6400a8c0@degradesv> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-2"; reply-type=original Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal Got troubles with receiving cures to your place? Our Internet-portal is aimed for helping you! Place your order here and get your package to your house the same day. We don't bother about prescription, but we care about confidentiality of delivery and transactions http://img715.imageshack.us/img715/9205/miyaharaa.swf --===============0764230180==-- From degradesv@devi-yoga.com Fri Feb 12 14:41:28 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C52F628C147; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 14:41:28 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -70.375 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-70.375 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HELO_DYNAMIC_HCC=4.295, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2=4.395, HELO_EQ_BR=0.955, HELO_EQ_DSL=1.129, HOST_EQ_BR=1.295, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.931, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id q2IcSwkjq3Bb; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 14:41:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from 201-40-187-130.paemt700.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br (201-40-187-130.paemt700.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br [201.40.187.130]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA46A3A78F9; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 14:41:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from 201.40.187.130 by devi-yoga.com; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 20:42:35 -0300 Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2010 20:42:35 -0300 From: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: Set love energy to max To: Message-ID: <000d01caac34$ab9cb050$6400a8c0@degradesv> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-2"; reply-type=original Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal Got troubles with receiving cures to your place? Our Internet-portal is aimed for helping you! Place your order here and get your package to your house the same day. We don't bother about prescription, but we care about confidentiality of delivery and transactions http://img715.imageshack.us/img715/9205/miyaharaa.swf From inflame62@isk.rfm.ru Fri Feb 12 19:17:39 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E41083A7936 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 19:17:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -87.174 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-87.174 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, HELO_EQ_BR=0.955, HOST_EQ_BR=1.295, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, SARE_WEOFFER=0.3, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wzLXUwn3nj46 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 19:17:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from 201009022007.user.veloxzone.com.br (201009022007.user.veloxzone.com.br [201.9.22.7]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CDC53A763B for ; Fri, 12 Feb 2010 19:17:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from 201.9.22.7 by mail.isk.rfm.ru; Sat, 13 Feb 2010 01:18:34 -0300 Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2010 01:18:34 -0300 From: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: Protection against bed weakness To: Message-ID: <000d01caac5b$39bb5460$6400a8c0@inflame62> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal There are many services in the Internet, ready to bring medicants to your apartment or office, but only we offer: -Private packaging and your prescription is not the thing we need to see! -Low prices on branded solutions! -Lots of hot offers all February! It's easy to order, when there are offers like these! http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/3860/poynton.swf From callousqu25@phoenixairsystems.com Sat Feb 13 07:02:37 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 101B93A76DC; Sat, 13 Feb 2010 07:02:37 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -24.045 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-24.045 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_FAKE_RCVD_LINE_B=5.777, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2=4.395, HELO_EQ_DYNAMIC=1.144, HTML_FONT_FACE_BAD=0.884, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id N-vPeEw-d4iR; Sat, 13 Feb 2010 07:02:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from 86-46-46-63-dynamic.b-ras3.mvw.galway.eircom.net (86-46-46-63-dynamic.b-ras3.mvw.galway.eircom.net [86.46.46.63]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 172AB3A74C3; Sat, 13 Feb 2010 07:02:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from 86.46.46.63 by mail2.phoenixairsystems.com; Sat, 13 Feb 2010 15:03:51 +0000 Message-ID: <000d01caacbd$c0e63830$6400a8c0@callousqu25> From: dnsext-archive@ietf.org To: Subject: Hello, long time did not communicate, please contact me, your beautiful Sonia! Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2010 15:03:51 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0007_01CAACBD.C0E63830" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1807 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE 6.00.2800.1807 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01CAACBD.C0E63830 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hey - tell me your mobile - Katya from Russia. Click Here ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01CAACBD.C0E63830 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hey - tell me your mobile - Katya from= Russia. Click He= re
------=_NextPart_000_0007_01CAACBD.C0E63830-- From diffserv-interest-bounces@ietf.org Sat Feb 13 07:02:39 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dnsext-archive@ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB1663A76DC for ; Sat, 13 Feb 2010 07:02:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: The results of your email commands From: diffserv-interest-bounces@ietf.org To: dnsext-archive@ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1619885351==" Message-ID: Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2010 07:02:38 -0800 Precedence: bulk X-BeenThere: diffserv-interest@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 List-Id: Differentiated services general discussion X-List-Administrivia: yes Sender: diffserv-interest-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: diffserv-interest-bounces@ietf.org --===============1619885351== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The results of your email command are provided below. Attached is your original message. - Results: Ignoring non-text/plain MIME parts - Done. --===============1619885351== Content-Type: message/rfc822 MIME-Version: 1.0 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diffserv-interest-request@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: diffserv-interest-request@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 101B93A76DC; Sat, 13 Feb 2010 07:02:37 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -24.045 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-24.045 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_FAKE_RCVD_LINE_B=5.777, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2=4.395, HELO_EQ_DYNAMIC=1.144, HTML_FONT_FACE_BAD=0.884, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id N-vPeEw-d4iR; Sat, 13 Feb 2010 07:02:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from 86-46-46-63-dynamic.b-ras3.mvw.galway.eircom.net (86-46-46-63-dynamic.b-ras3.mvw.galway.eircom.net [86.46.46.63]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 172AB3A74C3; Sat, 13 Feb 2010 07:02:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from 86.46.46.63 by mail2.phoenixairsystems.com; Sat, 13 Feb 2010 15:03:51 +0000 Message-ID: <000d01caacbd$c0e63830$6400a8c0@callousqu25> From: dnsext-archive@ietf.org To: Subject: Hello, long time did not communicate, please contact me, your beautiful Sonia! Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2010 15:03:51 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0007_01CAACBD.C0E63830" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1807 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE 6.00.2800.1807 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01CAACBD.C0E63830 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hey - tell me your mobile - Katya from Russia. Click Here ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01CAACBD.C0E63830 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hey - tell me your mobile - Katya from= Russia. Click He= re
------=_NextPart_000_0007_01CAACBD.C0E63830-- --===============1619885351==-- From dnsop-bounces@ietf.org Sat Feb 13 07:02:39 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dnsext-archive@ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D039B3A783F for ; Sat, 13 Feb 2010 07:02:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: The results of your email commands From: dnsop-bounces@ietf.org To: dnsext-archive@ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0527911361==" Message-ID: Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2010 07:02:38 -0800 Precedence: bulk X-BeenThere: dnsop@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 List-Id: IETF DNSOP WG mailing list X-List-Administrivia: yes Sender: dnsop-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: dnsop-bounces@ietf.org --===============0527911361== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The results of your email command are provided below. Attached is your original message. - Results: Ignoring non-text/plain MIME parts - Done. --===============0527911361== Content-Type: message/rfc822 MIME-Version: 1.0 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dnsop-request@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: dnsop-request@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 101B93A76DC; Sat, 13 Feb 2010 07:02:37 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -24.045 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-24.045 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_FAKE_RCVD_LINE_B=5.777, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2=4.395, HELO_EQ_DYNAMIC=1.144, HTML_FONT_FACE_BAD=0.884, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id N-vPeEw-d4iR; Sat, 13 Feb 2010 07:02:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from 86-46-46-63-dynamic.b-ras3.mvw.galway.eircom.net (86-46-46-63-dynamic.b-ras3.mvw.galway.eircom.net [86.46.46.63]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 172AB3A74C3; Sat, 13 Feb 2010 07:02:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from 86.46.46.63 by mail2.phoenixairsystems.com; Sat, 13 Feb 2010 15:03:51 +0000 Message-ID: <000d01caacbd$c0e63830$6400a8c0@callousqu25> From: dnsext-archive@ietf.org To: Subject: Hello, long time did not communicate, please contact me, your beautiful Sonia! Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2010 15:03:51 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0007_01CAACBD.C0E63830" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1807 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE 6.00.2800.1807 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01CAACBD.C0E63830 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hey - tell me your mobile - Katya from Russia. Click Here ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01CAACBD.C0E63830 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hey - tell me your mobile - Katya from= Russia. Click He= re
------=_NextPart_000_0007_01CAACBD.C0E63830-- --===============0527911361==-- From dhcwg-bounces@ietf.org Sat Feb 13 07:02:39 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dnsext-archive@ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D59BD3A76DC for ; Sat, 13 Feb 2010 07:02:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: The results of your email commands From: dhcwg-bounces@ietf.org To: dnsext-archive@ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0621133894==" Message-ID: Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2010 07:02:38 -0800 Precedence: bulk X-BeenThere: dhcwg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 List-Id: X-List-Administrivia: yes Sender: dhcwg-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: dhcwg-bounces@ietf.org --===============0621133894== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The results of your email command are provided below. Attached is your original message. - Results: Ignoring non-text/plain MIME parts - Done. --===============0621133894== Content-Type: message/rfc822 MIME-Version: 1.0 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dhcwg-request@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: dhcwg-request@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 101B93A76DC; Sat, 13 Feb 2010 07:02:37 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -24.045 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-24.045 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_FAKE_RCVD_LINE_B=5.777, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2=4.395, HELO_EQ_DYNAMIC=1.144, HTML_FONT_FACE_BAD=0.884, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id N-vPeEw-d4iR; Sat, 13 Feb 2010 07:02:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from 86-46-46-63-dynamic.b-ras3.mvw.galway.eircom.net (86-46-46-63-dynamic.b-ras3.mvw.galway.eircom.net [86.46.46.63]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 172AB3A74C3; Sat, 13 Feb 2010 07:02:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from 86.46.46.63 by mail2.phoenixairsystems.com; Sat, 13 Feb 2010 15:03:51 +0000 Message-ID: <000d01caacbd$c0e63830$6400a8c0@callousqu25> From: dnsext-archive@ietf.org To: Subject: Hello, long time did not communicate, please contact me, your beautiful Sonia! Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2010 15:03:51 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0007_01CAACBD.C0E63830" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1807 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE 6.00.2800.1807 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01CAACBD.C0E63830 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hey - tell me your mobile - Katya from Russia. Click Here ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01CAACBD.C0E63830 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hey - tell me your mobile - Katya from= Russia. Click He= re
------=_NextPart_000_0007_01CAACBD.C0E63830-- --===============0621133894==-- From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Sat Feb 13 07:28:37 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC0433A68E0; Sat, 13 Feb 2010 07:28:37 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.123 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.123 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.825, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_UK=1.749, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aAQvLj4mS6Lh; Sat, 13 Feb 2010 07:28:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 074D93A7704; Sat, 13 Feb 2010 07:28:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NgJpS-000GU2-EH for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Sat, 13 Feb 2010 15:22:42 +0000 Received: from [213.248.199.23] (helo=mx3.nominet.org.uk) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NgJpP-000GTc-PU for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Sat, 13 Feb 2010 15:22:40 +0000 DomainKey-Signature: s=main.dk.nominet.selector; d=nominet.org.uk; c=nofws; q=dns; h=X-IronPort-AV:Received:To:Subject:MIME-Version:X-Mailer: Message-ID:From:Date:X-MIMETrack:Content-Type; b=3XPtFWe5RJwmmCDI2dEqwSD9tmdfUIE3rBzJn+4hMdFaM5vEa7/WlZt9 DfeL9DJPifTvsGhBN6ZfyNsbXbFMhGohtbUsUaOygyvJn+RqxZwB43WQZ be4jBj1FiC/MYQl; DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nominet.org.uk; i=roy@nominet.org.uk; q=dns/txt; s=main.dkim.nominet.selector; t=1266074559; x=1297610559; h=from:sender:reply-to:subject:date:message-id:to:cc: mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:content-id: content-description:resent-date:resent-from:resent-sender: resent-to:resent-cc:resent-message-id:in-reply-to: references:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe: list-subscribe:list-post:list-owner:list-archive; z=From:=20"Roy=20Arends"=20|Subject: =20Result=20of=20expert=20review=20for=20RRTYPE=20request :=20TALINK|Date:=20Sat,=2013=20Feb=202010=2010:22:35=20-0 500|Message-ID:=20|To:=20namedroppers@op s.ietf.org|MIME-Version:=201.0; bh=7qRRdIqdm3bhKL+EeTmcz+Ifrc6ukOSI141cm5zbMIE=; b=hHlzUV/T155pU8FyKlm3Kl3wd9BWqsKZ4Hb/d1a35UJdSUIyi2arUk0e UWkHKCe767Cr2le4GVkcRHIIqx0Ni7VTFKw35J8mdsSynx0hVHiIU2nos o5SC5ySPseSgak3; X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.49,467,1262563200"; d="scan'208";a="21696992" Received: from notes1.nominet.org.uk ([213.248.197.128]) by mx3.nominet.org.uk with ESMTP; 13 Feb 2010 15:22:37 +0000 To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: [dnsext] Result of expert review for RRTYPE request: TALINK MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Build V85_M2_08202008 August 20, 2008 Message-ID: From: "Roy Arends" Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2010 10:22:35 -0500 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on notes1/Nominet(Release 7.0.1FP1 | May 25, 2006) at 13/02/2010 03:22:37 PM, Serialize complete at 13/02/2010 03:22:37 PM Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_alternative 00547753052576C9_=" Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: This is a multipart message in MIME format. --=_alternative 00547753052576C9_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Dear colleagues, After due consideration under the terms of RFC 5395, the request for the RRTYPE assignment TALINK has been approved. Kind regards, Roy --=_alternative 00547753052576C9_= Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Dear colleagues,

After due consideration under the terms of RFC 5395, the request for the RRTYPE assignment TALINK has been approved.

Kind regards,

Roy --=_alternative 00547753052576C9_=-- From dnsext-archive@ietf.org Sat Feb 13 09:24:25 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 695D93A7325 for ; Sat, 13 Feb 2010 09:24:25 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -30.119 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-30.119 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_EQ_PL=1.135, HOST_EQ_PL=1.95, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_16=1.526, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_02=0.383, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_2=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, SARE_FROM_DRUGS=1.666, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_SBL=20, URI_HEX=0.368, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QIJbSjtlV9ar for ; Sat, 13 Feb 2010 09:24:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from chello089075039020.chello.pl (chello089075039020.chello.pl [89.75.39.20]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26FDF3A6EAE for ; Sat, 13 Feb 2010 09:24:17 -0800 (PST) From: "Pfizer (tm) VIAGRA (c)" To: dnsext-archive@ietf.org Subject: Personal dnsext-archive 84% Off MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 100213-0, 2010-02-13), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean Message-Id: <20100213172418.26FDF3A6EAE@core3.amsl.com> Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2010 09:24:17 -0800 (PST) User dnsext-archive Newsletter
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From dm@ietf.org Sat Feb 13 09:40:18 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3DDC28C0D8 for ; Sat, 13 Feb 2010 09:40:18 -0800 (PST) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char C2 hex): From: Approved VIAGRA\302\256 Store ; Sat, 13 Feb 2010 09:40:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from bzq-84-108-69-46.cablep.bezeqint.net (bzq-84-108-69-46.cablep.bezeqint.net [84.108.69.46]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id C4D963A79EF for ; Sat, 13 Feb 2010 09:40:06 -0800 (PST) From: Approved VIAGRA® Store Subject: News on myspace To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20100213174013.C4D963A79EF@core3.amsl.com> Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2010 09:40:06 -0800 (PST)
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From cobd7@lidomusic.com Sat Feb 13 15:08:21 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCAD23A7A2F; Sat, 13 Feb 2010 15:08:21 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -37.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-37.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR=2.426, HOST_EQ_BROADBND=1.118, HTML_FONT_FACE_BAD=0.884, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OZPomdRPhurz; Sat, 13 Feb 2010 15:08:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from ip-83-147-191-5.broadband.digiweb.ie (ip-83-147-191-5.broadband.digiweb.ie [83.147.191.5]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E04CA3A783C; Sat, 13 Feb 2010 15:08:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from 83.147.191.5 by smtp.entos.nu; Sat, 13 Feb 2010 23:09:26 +0000 Message-ID: <000d01caad01$96a9bf80$6400a8c0@cobd7> From: directory@ietf.org To: Subject: A year ago you came to Russia, I remember you, write me! Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2010 23:09:26 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0007_01CAAD01.96A9BF80" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2670 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE 6.00.2900.2670 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01CAAD01.96A9BF80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Russian beauties are waiting. Click Here ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01CAAD01.96A9BF80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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------=_NextPart_000_0007_01CAAD10.B6A3CAB0-- From dnsop-bounces@ietf.org Sat Feb 13 16:56:51 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dnsext-archive@ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B9D13A75FB for ; Sat, 13 Feb 2010 16:56:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: The results of your email commands From: dnsop-bounces@ietf.org To: dnsext-archive@ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1705250513==" Message-ID: Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2010 16:56:49 -0800 Precedence: bulk X-BeenThere: dnsop@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 List-Id: IETF DNSOP WG mailing list X-List-Administrivia: yes Sender: dnsop-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: dnsop-bounces@ietf.org --===============1705250513== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The results of your email command are provided below. Attached is your original message. - Results: Ignoring non-text/plain MIME parts - Done. --===============1705250513== Content-Type: message/rfc822 MIME-Version: 1.0 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dnsop-request@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: dnsop-request@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7893B3A7913; Sat, 13 Feb 2010 16:56:48 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -26.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-26.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, DOS_OE_TO_MX=2.75, HELO_DYNAMIC_HCC=4.295, HELO_EQ_MODEMCABLE=0.768, HOST_EQ_MODEMCABLE=1.368, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aRP9Xdhi2AY2; Sat, 13 Feb 2010 16:56:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from cpc1-haye16-2-0-cust58.haye.cable.virginmedia.com (cpc1-haye16-2-0-cust58.haye.cable.virginmedia.com [77.99.69.59]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F76F3A75FB; Sat, 13 Feb 2010 16:56:46 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <000d01caad10$b6a3cab0$6400a8c0@topologyaea6> From: To: Subject: I can do for you is - what can not no girl! Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2010 00:57:42 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0007_01CAAD10.B6A3CAB0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1807 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1807 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01CAAD10.B6A3CAB0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Russian beauties are waiting. Break in ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01CAAD10.B6A3CAB0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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------=_NextPart_000_0007_01CAAD10.B6A3CAB0-- --===============1705250513==-- From entmib-archive@lists.ietf.org Sun Feb 14 01:44:58 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8395E3A731D for ; Sun, 14 Feb 2010 01:44:58 -0800 (PST) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char C2 hex): From: Approved VIAGRA\302\256 Store ; Sun, 14 Feb 2010 01:44:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from dynamic.rabat2-106-236-12-196.wanamaroc.com (dynamic.rabat2-106-236-12-196.wanamaroc.com [196.12.236.106]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 141113A68E9 for ; Sun, 14 Feb 2010 01:44:50 -0800 (PST) From: Approved VIAGRA® Store Subject: You have a new personal message To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20100214094454.141113A68E9@core3.amsl.com> Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2010 01:44:50 -0800 (PST)
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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Sun Feb 14 04:22:22 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D3663A72D5; Sun, 14 Feb 2010 04:22:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.984 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.984 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-2.789, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id N1iUaLdGolbr; Sun, 14 Feb 2010 04:22:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F20E3A69DA; Sun, 14 Feb 2010 04:22:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NgdP7-0009d2-Kr for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Sun, 14 Feb 2010 12:16:49 +0000 Received: from [144.254.224.141] (helo=ams-iport-2.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NgdP4-0009ck-4r for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Sun, 14 Feb 2010 12:16:46 +0000 Authentication-Results: ams-iport-2.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-Files: PGP.sig : 186 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Ah8BAE94d0uQ/uCWe2dsb2JhbACbHRUBARYkBh2jMZZhhFsE X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.49,471,1262563200"; d="sig'?scan'208";a="3435216" Received: from ams-core-1.cisco.com ([144.254.224.150]) by ams-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 14 Feb 2010 11:45:22 +0000 Received: from [192.165.72.14] (ams3-vpn-dhcp634.cisco.com [10.61.66.122]) by ams-core-1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o1ECGiuL002181; Sun, 14 Feb 2010 12:16:44 GMT Subject: Re: [dnsext] Re: DNS64 and SRV records Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1; boundary="Apple-Mail-168-79794202" From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Patrik_F=E4ltstr=F6m?= In-Reply-To: <20100212184259.GN14996@shinkuro.com> Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2010 13:16:42 +0100 Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: References: <20100210201252.GS5187@shinkuro.com> <20100212184259.GN14996@shinkuro.com> To: Andrew Sullivan X-Pgp-Agent: GPGMail 1.2.3 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --Apple-Mail-168-79794202 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On 12 feb 2010, at 19.43, Andrew Sullivan wrote: > Thanks for the feedback, everyone. I have concluded we should still > leave the Additional section alone. Here's some additional text that > I propose to make clearer the reasoning: [snip] > I'll assume there's no objection unless I hear otherwise. Ok with me. 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------=_NextPart_000_0007_01CAAD93.34101F30-- From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Sun Feb 14 08:43:01 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF59A3A7A47; Sun, 14 Feb 2010 08:43:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 2.249 X-Spam-Level: ** X-Spam-Status: No, score=2.249 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-2.001, BAYES_00=-2.599, CHARSET_FARAWAY_HEADER=3.2, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, HELO_MISMATCH_DE=1.448, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id reqoi1u+8Uxg; Sun, 14 Feb 2010 08:43:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C12C53A7A44; Sun, 14 Feb 2010 08:43:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NghTF-000BWk-1C for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Sun, 14 Feb 2010 16:37:21 +0000 Received: from [213.178.172.147] (helo=TR-Sys.de) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NghTB-000BWB-Sb for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Sun, 14 Feb 2010 16:37:18 +0000 Received: from ZEUS.TR-Sys.de by w. with ESMTP ($Revision: 1.37.109.26 $/16.3.2) id AA104495414; Sun, 14 Feb 2010 17:36:54 +0100 Received: (from ah@localhost) by z.TR-Sys.de (8.9.3 (PHNE_25183)/8.7.3) id RAA11275; Sun, 14 Feb 2010 17:36:53 +0100 (MEZ) From: Alfred =?hp-roman8?B?SM5uZXM=?= Message-Id: <201002141636.RAA11275@TR-Sys.de> Subject: Re: [dnsext] Result of expert review for RRTYPE request: TALINK To: roy@nominet.org.uk Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2010 17:36:52 +0100 (MEZ) Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org X-Mailer: ELM [$Revision: 1.17.214.3 $] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=hp-roman8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: At Sat, 13 Feb 2010 10:22:35 -0500 , Roy Arends wrote: > Dear colleagues, > > After due consideration under the terms of RFC 5395, the request > for the RRTYPE assignment TALINK has been approved. > > Kind regards, > > Roy Just to avoid confusion (the "3-week" period obviously has been extended, and my brain already leaked a bit): :-) This approval now refers to draft-wijngaards-dnsop-trust-history-02 -- correct? (Having a pointer to the document should help to recall the context.) Kind regards, Alfred. From dlcxmedia-feature-tags@ietf.org Sun Feb 14 13:11:40 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B3AE3A7A69 for ; Sun, 14 Feb 2010 13:11:40 -0800 (PST) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char C2 hex): From: Approved VIAGRA\302\256 Store ; Sun, 14 Feb 2010 13:11:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from 83-70-236-166-dynamic.b-ras1.prp.dublin.eircom.net (83-70-236-166-dynamic.b-ras1.prp.dublin.eircom.net [83.70.236.166]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id C193128C10B for ; Sun, 14 Feb 2010 13:11:26 -0800 (PST) From: Approved VIAGRA® Store Subject: News on myspace To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20100214211130.C193128C10B@core3.amsl.com> Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2010 13:11:26 -0800 (PST)
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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Sun Feb 14 20:24:07 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86E6528C101; Sun, 14 Feb 2010 20:24:07 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.075 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.075 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.020, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HABEAS_ACCREDITED_SOI=-4.3, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RCVD_IN_BSP_TRUSTED=-4.3, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7SNZiQ7g-6pv; Sun, 14 Feb 2010 20:24:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73F7628C0E4; Sun, 14 Feb 2010 20:24:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NgsOm-000Ol4-MH for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 04:17:28 +0000 Received: from [64.57.183.53] (helo=gal.iecc.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NgsOj-000Okf-5c for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 04:17:25 +0000 Received: (qmail 77397 invoked from network); 15 Feb 2010 04:10:43 -0000 Received: from mail1.iecc.com (64.57.183.56) by mail1.iecc.com with QMQP; 15 Feb 2010 04:10:43 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=k1002; olt=johnl@user.iecc.com; bh=ixHmPGOWstWIc5gfswJq/f09hElsVAbUUVcAOY1qeTU=; b=k3KbSAmW6M616BcD8HokCWChfvNB2GQ06BMgIpqKjLUzwOE+/vT1dqUyCINLBFnykv9J6eELykbYhahD337ELZEq8JBuWRps2lSP+R6tHBkWbbdw4MvZeEvvBqhUDaAGuftgKhd+dBsFqry4K7QzKBCXcAMf55c05tBumLSIJsA= Date: 15 Feb 2010 04:10:43 -0000 Message-ID: <20100215041043.52019.qmail@simone.iecc.com> From: John Levine To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: [dnsext] Another CNAME question Organization: X-Headerized: yes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: Let's say I have a resource which is referred to via some CNAME records: a.b IN A 10.2.3.4 c.d IN CNAME a.b e.f IN CNAME c.d I'd like to publish some annotations about the resource on a subdomain of the resource's name: _stuff.a.b IN TXT "plugh" But that doesn't help the people who call it c.d and e.f. Is there any technical reason I couldn't write client code that looks at result of the A query, and if there is a CNAME chain, picks out the name of the A record, and adds the prefix to that to form the name for the second lookup? I can imagine a variety of problems, such as resolver libraries that don't let you see the CNAMEs, or caches that don't return quite the set of records they're supposed to. Is this likely to be workable in practice, or is it too much of a kludge? R's, John PS: I realize that in a more perfect world, the sensible approach would be to use a new RRTYPE: a.b IN ANNOTATE "plugh" But that's not going to happen, mostly because it's so painful to add new RRTYPEs to provisioning systems. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Sun Feb 14 20:47:34 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46A213A760A; Sun, 14 Feb 2010 20:47:34 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.399 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.399 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.526, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dz-suhNg7bgv; Sun, 14 Feb 2010 20:47:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55F553A750B; Sun, 14 Feb 2010 20:47:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ngsmw-0001aB-H9 for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 04:42:26 +0000 Received: from [209.85.222.174] (helo=mail-pz0-f174.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ngsmu-0001Zq-3l for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 04:42:24 +0000 Received: by pzk4 with SMTP id 4so4922864pzk.5 for ; Sun, 14 Feb 2010 20:42:23 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.115.65.39 with SMTP id s39mr3141584wak.116.1266208936802; Sun, 14 Feb 2010 20:42:16 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <20100215041043.52019.qmail@simone.iecc.com> References: <20100215041043.52019.qmail@simone.iecc.com> Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2010 20:42:16 -0800 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [dnsext] Another CNAME question From: Matthew Dempsky To: John Levine Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On Sun, Feb 14, 2010 at 8:10 PM, John Levine wrote: > a.b =A0IN A =A0 =A0 10.2.3.4 > c.d =A0IN CNAME a.b > e.f =A0IN CNAME c.d A query for e.f to a recursive resolver should return all three of these records, from which a stub resolver could then pick out the terminal name a.b, and construct an appropriate query (if that's the convention your protocol has standardized on). A lot of DNS client libraries just don't expose that information though. Most often they're dumbed down to just returning a set of IPv4 addresses and maybe a few other basic record types if you're lucky. Better libraries provide access to all of the response resource record sets and/or the raw response packet, but that's less common in my experience. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Feb 15 06:28:46 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A63253A7ADC; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 06:28:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.586 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.586 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.986, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_INFO=1.448, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gghEpSg7PeMI; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 06:28:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCD853A79A3; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 06:28:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nh1qM-000A5z-LS for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 14:22:34 +0000 Received: from [208.86.224.201] (helo=mail.yitter.info) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:CAMELLIA256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nh1qJ-000A5M-5Y for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 14:22:31 +0000 Received: from crankycanuck.ca (69-196-144-230.dsl.teksavvy.com [69.196.144.230]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.yitter.info (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 2FDCD1ECB402 for ; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 14:22:26 +0000 (UTC) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 09:22:24 -0500 From: Andrew Sullivan To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Difficulty with new RRTYPEs (was: [dnsext] Another CNAME question) Message-ID: <20100215142224.GB25973@shinkuro.com> References: <20100215041043.52019.qmail@simone.iecc.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20100215041043.52019.qmail@simone.iecc.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 04:10:43AM -0000, John Levine wrote: > But that's not going to happen, mostly because it's so painful to add > new RRTYPEs to provisioning systems. We hear this so often it's like a broken record. Every time I ask about it, I get a slightly different answer. What makes that so hard? Why do you think it's like that? And what would need to change for you to feel that it was no longer the case? A -- Andrew Sullivan ajs@shinkuro.com Shinkuro, Inc. From wishedim55@cfcla.com Mon Feb 15 06:55:14 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B97DE3A782D; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 06:55:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -78.872 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-78.872 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2=4.395, HELO_DYNAMIC_SPLIT_IP=3.493, HELO_EQ_BR=0.955, HELO_EQ_IP_ADDR=1.119, HOST_EQ_BR=1.295, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619, RCVD_NUMERIC_HELO=2.067, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.931, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IcgB8nhZ+REs; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 06:55:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from 201.54.0.30.dedicated.neoviatelecom.com.br (201.54.0.30.dedicated.neoviatelecom.com.br [201.54.0.30]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 742B83A76C6; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 06:55:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from 201.54.0.30 by mx2.framestore-cfc.com; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 12:56:22 -0300 Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 12:56:22 -0300 From: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: Make it passionately with our tabs To: Message-ID: <000d01caae4f$0a2cd480$6400a8c0@wishedim55> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal What discounts on medicants have we prepared for you? 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Buy and get your package via airmail or messenger service to your apartment! http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/1090/scharmer.swf From dnsop-bounces@ietf.org Mon Feb 15 06:55:15 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D244F3A7AED for ; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 06:55:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: The results of your email commands From: dnsop-bounces@ietf.org To: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0167448989==" Message-ID: Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 06:55:15 -0800 Precedence: bulk X-BeenThere: dnsop@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 List-Id: IETF DNSOP WG mailing list X-List-Administrivia: yes Sender: dnsop-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: dnsop-bounces@ietf.org --===============0167448989== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The results of your email command are provided below. Attached is your original message. - Unprocessed: We have 30%, 40% and even 60% off, depending on what exact solution from our 400-name selection you may want. Buy and get your package via airmail or messenger service to your apartment! http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/1090/scharmer.swf - Done. --===============0167448989== Content-Type: message/rfc822 MIME-Version: 1.0 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dnsop-request@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: dnsop-request@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B97DE3A782D; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 06:55:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -78.872 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-78.872 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2=4.395, HELO_DYNAMIC_SPLIT_IP=3.493, HELO_EQ_BR=0.955, HELO_EQ_IP_ADDR=1.119, HOST_EQ_BR=1.295, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619, RCVD_NUMERIC_HELO=2.067, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.931, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IcgB8nhZ+REs; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 06:55:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from 201.54.0.30.dedicated.neoviatelecom.com.br (201.54.0.30.dedicated.neoviatelecom.com.br [201.54.0.30]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 742B83A76C6; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 06:55:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from 201.54.0.30 by mx2.framestore-cfc.com; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 12:56:22 -0300 Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 12:56:22 -0300 From: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: Make it passionately with our tabs To: Message-ID: <000d01caae4f$0a2cd480$6400a8c0@wishedim55> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal What discounts on medicants have we prepared for you? We have 30%, 40% and even 60% off, depending on what exact solution from our 400-name selection you may want. Buy and get your package via airmail or messenger service to your apartment! http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/1090/scharmer.swf --===============0167448989==-- From wishedim55@cfcla.com Mon Feb 15 06:55:14 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B97DE3A782D; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 06:55:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -78.872 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-78.872 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2=4.395, HELO_DYNAMIC_SPLIT_IP=3.493, HELO_EQ_BR=0.955, HELO_EQ_IP_ADDR=1.119, HOST_EQ_BR=1.295, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619, RCVD_NUMERIC_HELO=2.067, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.931, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IcgB8nhZ+REs; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 06:55:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from 201.54.0.30.dedicated.neoviatelecom.com.br (201.54.0.30.dedicated.neoviatelecom.com.br [201.54.0.30]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 742B83A76C6; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 06:55:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from 201.54.0.30 by mx2.framestore-cfc.com; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 12:56:22 -0300 Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 12:56:22 -0300 From: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: Make it passionately with our tabs To: Message-ID: <000d01caae4f$0a2cd480$6400a8c0@wishedim55> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal What discounts on medicants have we prepared for you? We have 30%, 40% and even 60% off, depending on what exact solution from our 400-name selection you may want. Buy and get your package via airmail or messenger service to your apartment! http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/1090/scharmer.swf From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Feb 15 07:50:35 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B0F63A7AF2; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 07:50:35 -0800 (PST) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Duplicate header field: "Message-ID" X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.043 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.043 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.506, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, MIME_BASE64_BLANKS=0.041, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER=0.803, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HqkH50nK2vw3; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 07:50:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 64E383A73F8; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 07:50:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nh39a-000LHF-4p for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 15:46:30 +0000 Received: from [159.226.7.146] (helo=cnnic.cn) by psg.com with smtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nh39X-000LGf-4K for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 15:46:27 +0000 Received: (eyou send program); Mon, 15 Feb 2010 23:46:25 +0800 Message-ID: <466248785.15660@cnnic.cn> X-EYOUMAIL-SMTPAUTH: yaojk@cnnic.cn Received: from unknown (HELO lenovo47e041cf) (127.0.0.1) by 127.0.0.1 with SMTP; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 23:46:25 +0800 Message-ID: <6D3E0FA6055F43D8B3BA74D203402A6D@LENOVO47E041CF> From: "YAO Jiankang" To: "Andrew Sullivan" , References: <465814831.24565@cnnic.cn> Subject: [dnsext] Position statement of Jiankang Yao on DNS name equivalence Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 23:46:38 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5843 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: RGVhciBhbGwsDQoNCiAgICBiZWxvdyBhcmUgbXkgY29tbWVudHMgdG8gdGhlIHNvbHV0aW9uIHNw YWNlOg0KDQo+MS4gRG8gTm90aGluZyANCg0KdGhlIHdnIHNob3VsZCBkbyBzb21ldGhpbmcgdG8g c29sdmUgZG5zIG5hbWUgZXF1aXZhbGVuY2UuIA0KDQpJQ0FOTiBuZWVkIGl0IGZvciBJRE4gVExE IHZhcmlhbnQ7IHVzZXJzIG5lZWQgaXQgZm9yIGFib3V0IGlkZW50aWNhbCByZXNvbHV0aW9uIG9m IGludGVybmV0IG5hbWUgdmFyaWFudHM7DQoNCnJlZ2lzdHJ5IG9yIHJlZ2lzdHJhciBuZWVkIGl0 IGZvciBkZWFsbGluZyB3aXRoIGJ1bmRsaW5nIG5hbWVzLg0KDQo+Mi4gUmVjb21tZW5kIHRoZSBw cm9ibGVtIGJlIHNvbHZlZCBhcyBhIG1hdHRlciBvZiBwcm92aXNpb25pbmcgDQoNClRoZSBXRyBz aG91bGQgZG8gc29tZXRoaW5nLiBvdGhlciB3ZyBjYW4gbm90IHNvbHZlIGl0LiANCg0KPjMuIFJl Y29tbWVuZCB0aGUgcHJvYmxlbSBiZSBzb2x2ZWQgaW4gem9uZSBtYXN0ZXIgc2VydmVyczogImNs b25lIiANCg0KSSBzdXBwb3J0IGJvdGggem9uZSBjbG9uZSBhbmQgYm5hbWUgYXJlIHVzZWQgZm9y IHNvbHZpbmcgbmFtZSBlcXVpdmFubGVuY2UuIGRpZmZlcmVudCB1c2VycyBjYW4gc2VsZWN0IGRp ZmZlcmVudCBtZXRob2RzIDogYm5hbWUgb3Igem9uZSBjbG9uZSBiYXNlZCBvbiB0aGVpciBvd24g bmVlZHMuDQoNCj40LiBQcm92aWRlIG9wZXJhdGlvbmFsIGd1aWRhbmNlIGZvciBzdXBwb3J0aW5n IHRoZSBnb2FsIHVzaW5nIENOQU1FIG9ubHkgDQoNCj5JdCBpcyBwcm9iYWJseSBhY3R1YWxseSBp bXBvc3NpYmxlIHRvIG9idGFpbiB0aGUgZGVzaXJlZCBiZWhhdmlvdXIgdXNpbmcgb25seSBDTkFN RS4gQnV0IENOQU1FIGNvdWxkIGJlIHVzZWQgYXMgYSBtZWNoYW5pc20gdG8gcHJvdmlkZSAiYWxp YXNlcyIgZm9yIGFueSB0ZXJtaW5hbCA+bmFtZS4gDQoNCnBhcnRpYWwgc29sdmluZyB0aGUgcHJv YmxlbS4NCg0KDQoNCj41LiBTb2x2ZSB0aGUgcHJvYmxlbSB1c2luZyBETkFNRSBhdCB0aGUgcGFy ZW50LiANCg0KPkluIGNvbWJpbmF0aW9uIHdpdGggc29tZSBwcm92aXNpb25pbmcgdG9vbHMsIERO QU1FIG1pZ2h0IGJlIGFuIGFkZXF1YXRlIHNvbHV0aW9uIHRvIHRoaXMgaXNzdWUuIEROQU1FIGVu dGFpbHMgc29tZSBzZXJ2ZXItc2lkZSBwcm9jZXNzaW5nLCBob3dldmVyLiANCg0KRE5BTUUgaXMg bm90IHN1aXRhYmxlIGZvciBiZWluZyBkZXBsb3llZCBpbiB0aGUgcm9vdC4NCg0KPjYuIFJlY29t bWVuZCBkZWxlZ2F0aW9uIHRvIHpvbmVzIHVzaW5nIEROQU1FIGF0IHRoZSBjaGlsZCANCg0KPklu c3RlYWQgb2YgdXNpbmcgRE5BTUVzIGF0IHRoZSBwYXJlbnQgc2lkZSwgdGhlIHBhcmVudCBjb3Vs ZCBkZWxlZ2F0ZSBhcyB0aG91Z2ggdGhlIHpvbmUgaXMgYSBjb21wbGV0ZWx5IGRpZmZlcmVudCB6 b25lLCBidXQgcmVxdWlyZSBhcyBhIG1hdHRlciBvZiBjb250cmFjdCB0aGF0IHRoZSA+dmFyaWFu dCB6b25lcyBpbmNsdWRlIGEgRE5BTUUgZm9yIHRoZSBuYW1lLCBhbmQgYWxsIGFuZCBvbmx5IERO UyBSUnMgZm9yIG5vbi1ETlMtY29udHJvbCByZWNvcmRzIG11c3QgYWxzbyBtYXRjaC4gKFNvLCBm b3IgaW5zdGFuY2UsIE5TIHJlY29yZHMgaW4gdGhlIHZhcmlhbnQsID5hbmQgdGhlIFNPQSByZWNv cmQgb3IgYW55IFJSU0lHIHJlY29yZCwgbmVlZCBub3QgbWF0Y2guIEJ1dCBmb3IgZXZlcnkgQSBy ZWNvcmQgYXQgdGhlIG1haW4gbmFtZSwgdGhlcmUgbXVzdCBiZSBhIGNvcnJlc3BvbmRpbmcgQSBy ZWNvcmQgYXQgZWFjaCB2YXJpYW50IG5hbWUsID5hbmQgZm9yIGV2ZXJ5IEEgcmVjb3JkIGF0IGEg dmFyaWFudCBuYW1lLCB0aGVyZSBtdXN0IGJlIGEgY29ycmVzcG9uZGluZyBBIHJlY29yZCBhdCB0 aGUgbWFpbiBuYW1lLikgDQoNCm1heSB3b3JrLCBidXQgYWxzbyBlbnRhaWxzIHNvbWUgc2VydmVy LXNpZGUgcHJvY2Vzc2luZyBkdWUgdG8gdGhlIHN5bnRoZXNpemVkIENOQU1FIHdpdGggVFRMIHpl cm8uDQoNCg0KDQo+Ny4gQWx0ZXIgdGhlIHNwZWNpZmljYXRpb24gb2YgRE5BTUUgDQoNCj43LmEg dG8gcGVybWl0IGNvbWJpbmF0aW9uIHdpdGggQ05BTUUgDQoNCj5UaGUgY29tYmluYXRpb24gb2Yg Q05BTUUgYW5kIEROQU1FIHdvdWxkIGFsbG93IGFuIGVudGlyZSB0cmVlIHRvIGJlIGFsaWFzZWQg d2l0aG91dCBkaWZmaWN1bHR5LiBUaGlzIGlzIGEgYmFja3dhcmRzLWluY29tcGF0aWJsZSBjaGFu Z2UsIGhvd2V2ZXIuIA0KDQphZ3JlZS4NCg0KPjcuYiBUbyBmb2xsb3cgRE5BTUUgdGFyZ2V0IGlm IHJlcXVlc3RlZCB0eXBlIGRvZXMgbm90IGV4aXN0IHdpdGggdGhlIEROQU1FIA0KDQo+VGhpcyBj aGFuZ2UgYmFzaWNhbGx5IGNoYW5nZXMgdGhlIEROQU1FIGZyb20gdHJhbnNsYXRpbmcgYmVsb3cg dGhlIHRhcmdldCB0byB0cmFuc2xhdGUgdG8gdGhlIHRhcmdldCB3aGVuIGV2ZXIgdGhlIEROQU1F IHJ1bGVzIGFwcGx5IGF0IHRoZSBRTkFNRS4gDQoNCnRoaXMgYWxzbyBoYXMgc29tZSBiYWNrd2Fy ZHMtaW5jb21wYXRpYmxlIHByb2JsZW1zLg0KDQo+OC4gRG8gKDcpIGV4Y2VwdCB3aXRoIGEgbmV3 IFJSVFlQRSANCg0KPlRoaXMgaXMgdGhlICJCTkFNRSIgcHJvcG9zYWwsIG1vcmUgb3IgbGVzcy4g IGh0dHA6Ly90b29scy5pZXRmLm9yZy9pZC9kcmFmdC15YW8tZG5zZXh0LWJuYW1lLTAxLnR4dCAN Cg0KOikgSSBzdXBwb3J0IHRoaXMuDQoNCg0KDQo+OS4gUHJvdmlkZSBhbiBhbGlhc2luZyBtZWNo YW5pc20gdGhhdCBwb2ludHMgdG8gYW4gTlMgcmVjb3JkLCBhbmQgd2hpY2ggaXMgbm90IGFsbG93 ZWQgdG8gYmUgcGFydCBvZiBhIGNoYWluLiANCg0Kbm90IHN1aXRhYmxlIGZvciBJQ05OIElETiBU TEQgdmFyaWFudHMuDQoNCg0K From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Feb 15 08:33:00 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C03D128C1CF; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 08:33:00 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.932 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.932 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.333, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eZmhuopRVAnf; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 08:32:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 754AB28C1CB; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 08:32:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nh3pq-0000Zn-GS for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 16:30:10 +0000 Received: from [2001:4f8:3:bb:230:48ff:fe5a:2f38] (helo=nsa.vix.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:CAMELLIA256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nh3pl-0000YH-PQ for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 16:30:05 +0000 Received: from nsa.vix.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nsa.vix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14FDEA9AD3 for ; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 16:30:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vixie@nsa.vix.com) From: Paul Vixie To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] Another CNAME question In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 14 Feb 2010 20:42:16 PST." References: <20100215041043.52019.qmail@simone.iecc.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.1; nil; GNU Emacs 22.2.1 Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 16:30:05 +0000 Message-ID: <81973.1266251405@nsa.vix.com> Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: > Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2010 20:42:16 -0800 > From: Matthew Dempsky > > A lot of DNS client libraries just don't expose that information though. > Most often they're dumbed down to just returning a set of IPv4 addresses > and maybe a few other basic record types if you're lucky. The gethostbyname() shipped in BSD 4.4 and possibly 4.3-Tahoe was derived from BIND 4.9 which returned the whole CNAME chain as aliases. To wit: +--- | [nsa:amd64] ./gethost www.microsoft.com | {www.microsoft.com} | name: lb1.www.ms.akadns.net | aliases: www.microsoft.com toggle.www.ms.akadns.net g.www.ms.akadns.net | addresses: 64.4.31.252 207.46.19.190 207.46.19.254 +--- All versions of FreeBSD/NetBSD/OpenBSD and BSD/OS have had this logic, and all versions of HP-UX, AIX, Solaris, and Apple Darwin/MacOSX published since 1996 have had this logic. I'm less knowledgeable about what GNU GLibC does in this case, but that would determine what all versions of Linux do in this case. Likewise I do not know what Win32 (Microsoft) does, or what APR (Apache Portable Runtime) or MPR (Mozilla Portable Runtime) do. Further historical note: Many/most of these systems also return multiple aliases if there's more than one PTR RR in a gethostbyaddr(), which was called experimental but shipped enabled by default. This is more controversial since RFC 1034/1035 calls the target of a PTR "the canonical name" of which by definition there could be only one. However, we needed this to make multi-homing work. As in many controversial innovations in BIND of that era, no RFC was written to describe the behaviour, and it may have fallen out of some codebases as a result. From reissueqrw9@fxsolution.com Mon Feb 15 08:35:03 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4636528C1D9; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 08:35:03 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -61.945 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-61.945 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_FAKE_RCVD_LINE_B=5.777, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HELO_DYNAMIC_HCC=4.295, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2=4.395, HELO_EQ_BR=0.955, HELO_EQ_DSL=1.129, HELO_EQ_TELESP=1.245, HOST_EQ_BR=1.295, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_RECV_SPAM_DOMN02=1.666, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.931, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lS3Xg137tmhJ; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 08:35:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from 201-93-241-67.dsl.telesp.net.br (201-93-241-67.dsl.telesp.net.br [201.93.241.67]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 372DF28C1D8; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 08:35:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from 201.93.241.67 by nullmx.fxsolution.com; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 14:35:11 -0300 Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 14:35:11 -0300 From: dnsext-archive@ietf.org Subject: Vertu Luxury Phone To: Message-ID: <000d01caae5c$d7b26f20$6400a8c0@reissueqrw9> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal Vertu creates phones for discerning individuals who demand the best in everything they buy. The product of years of development, each Vertu is a complex masterpiece. It combines the finest materials with the highest traditions of craftsmanship. While other phones are mass produced by the millions, a Vertu is hand-built in England, one at a time. Inevitably, Vertu can only make such phones in very limited numbers: each one is rare, precious and highly exclusive. http://brainstorm804.spaces.live.com From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Feb 15 09:45:29 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB78228C201; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 09:45:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.587 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.587 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.987, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_INFO=1.448, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nLyzrstXszep; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 09:45:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA0F428C1E3; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 09:45:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nh4vv-00095y-Ef for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 17:40:31 +0000 Received: from [208.86.224.201] (helo=mail.yitter.info) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:CAMELLIA256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nh4vs-00095c-PM for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 17:40:28 +0000 Received: from crankycanuck.ca (69-196-144-230.dsl.teksavvy.com [69.196.144.230]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.yitter.info (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 885931ECB402 for ; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 17:40:27 +0000 (UTC) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 12:40:25 -0500 From: Andrew Sullivan To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: [dnsext] Materals for interim Message-ID: <20100215174025.GU25973@shinkuro.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: Dear colleagues, If you are planning to make comments with reference to presentation materials at tomorrow's interim, I need to know as soon as possible how long you plan to talk. I also need your materials. If I don't have those materials this afternoon, I make no assurances about whether they'll be available during the meeting. Best regards, A -- Andrew Sullivan ajs@shinkuro.com Shinkuro, Inc. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Feb 15 13:40:36 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 559FD28C10A; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 13:40:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.75 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.75 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, HELO_MISMATCH_DE=1.448, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VNxxdEKQohu4; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 13:40:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85DA328C108; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 13:40:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nh8ah-000CoV-Px for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 21:34:51 +0000 Received: from [212.9.189.167] (helo=mail.enyo.de) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nh8ae-000Cnl-O4 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 21:34:48 +0000 Received: from deneb.vpn.enyo.de ([212.9.189.177] helo=deneb.enyo.de) by mail.enyo.de with esmtp id 1Nh8ac-0002T9-15; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 22:34:46 +0100 Received: from fw by deneb.enyo.de with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Nh8ab-0008Oz-Ih; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 22:34:45 +0100 From: Florian Weimer To: Andrew Sullivan Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: [dnsext] Re: Difficulty with new RRTYPEs References: <20100215041043.52019.qmail@simone.iecc.com> <20100215142224.GB25973@shinkuro.com> Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 22:34:45 +0100 In-Reply-To: <20100215142224.GB25973@shinkuro.com> (Andrew Sullivan's message of "Mon, 15 Feb 2010 09:22:24 -0500") Message-ID: <87y6iumbd6.fsf@mid.deneb.enyo.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: * Andrew Sullivan: [unusual record types] > What makes that so hard? You can't use gethostbyname or getaddrinfo anymore, and the alternative interfaces are typically not very well documented and do not give the appearance of being thread-safe. You also have to use something like dn_expand, which is counter-intuitive and somewhat difficult to use. At least that's why I briefly compressed data into A records a few years ago. Perhaps the situation on Windows is different, but I doubt it. It's not a very compelling observatioon because it also applies to TXT, which turned out quite popular. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Feb 15 14:14:09 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E74EA3A7A55; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 14:14:08 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.534 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.534 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.065, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9lMthrUgyUYl; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 14:14:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96F643A7A4A; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 14:14:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nh9Ab-000Glp-KT for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 22:11:57 +0000 Received: from [2001:4f8:3:bb::5] (helo=farside.isc.org) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nh9AY-000GlP-0p for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 22:11:54 +0000 Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (drugs.dv.isc.org [IPv6:2001:470:1f00:820:214:22ff:fed9:fbdc]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "drugs.dv.isc.org", Issuer "ISC CA" (not verified)) by farside.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4187FE601C; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 22:11:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marka@isc.org) Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by drugs.dv.isc.org (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o1FMBoTH097264; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 09:11:51 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from marka@drugs.dv.isc.org) Message-Id: <201002152211.o1FMBoTH097264@drugs.dv.isc.org> To: Florian Weimer Cc: Andrew Sullivan , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org From: Mark Andrews References: <20100215041043.52019.qmail@simone.iecc.com> <20100215142224.GB25973@shinkuro.com> <87y6iumbd6.fsf@mid.deneb.enyo.de> Subject: Re: [dnsext] Re: Difficulty with new RRTYPEs In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 15 Feb 2010 22:34:45 BST." <87y6iumbd6.fsf@mid.deneb.enyo.de> Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 09:11:50 +1100 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: In message <87y6iumbd6.fsf@mid.deneb.enyo.de>, Florian Weimer writes: > * Andrew Sullivan: > > [unusual record types] > > > What makes that so hard? > > You can't use gethostbyname or getaddrinfo anymore, and the > alternative interfaces are typically not very well documented and do > not give the appearance of being thread-safe. You also have to use > something like dn_expand, which is counter-intuitive and somewhat > difficult to use. By that reasoning there would MTA's using MX records or Kerbros code using SRV records or .... While dn_expand() and frieds may be low level they can cope with any new record type that comes out. If you don't like the documentation submit updates. It is FOSS. > At least that's why I briefly compressed data into A records a few > years ago. Perhaps the situation on Windows is different, but I doubt > it. > > It's not a very compelling observatioon because it also applies to > TXT, which turned out quite popular. -- Mark Andrews, ISC 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: marka@isc.org From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Feb 15 14:22:03 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 955163A7A55; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 14:22:03 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.562 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.562 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.962, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_INFO=1.448, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9v+hWHTdxqbM; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 14:22:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D14EA3A7A4A; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 14:22:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nh9Il-000Hu4-Tf for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 22:20:23 +0000 Received: from [208.86.224.201] (helo=mail.yitter.info) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:CAMELLIA256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nh9Ii-000Hsk-5I for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 22:20:20 +0000 Received: from crankycanuck.ca (69-196-144-230.dsl.teksavvy.com [69.196.144.230]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.yitter.info (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id CE3AF1ECB402 for ; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 22:20:18 +0000 (UTC) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 17:20:17 -0500 From: Andrew Sullivan To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] Re: Difficulty with new RRTYPEs Message-ID: <20100215222016.GI25973@shinkuro.com> References: <20100215041043.52019.qmail@simone.iecc.com> <20100215142224.GB25973@shinkuro.com> <87y6iumbd6.fsf@mid.deneb.enyo.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <87y6iumbd6.fsf@mid.deneb.enyo.de> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 10:34:45PM +0100, Florian Weimer wrote: > It's not a very compelling observatioon because it also applies to > TXT, which turned out quite popular. Until I got here, I was muttering "but what about TXT?". So yes. A -- Andrew Sullivan ajs@shinkuro.com Shinkuro, Inc. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Feb 15 15:21:46 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EDA43A7BE8; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 15:21:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.667 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.667 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.172, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id adk0eiAdWnIv; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 15:21:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 667D33A7BE4; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 15:21:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NhADB-000OMl-JG for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 23:18:41 +0000 Received: from [66.92.146.20] (helo=stora.ogud.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NhAD9-000OMM-4F for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 23:18:39 +0000 Received: from [IPv6:::1] (nyttbox.md.ogud.com [10.20.30.4]) by stora.ogud.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o1FNIZcp095543 for ; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 18:18:35 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from ogud@ogud.com) Message-ID: <4B79D64C.1050702@ogud.com> Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 18:18:36 -0500 From: Olafur Gudmundsson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.1; en-GB; rv:1.9.1.7) Gecko/20100111 Thunderbird/3.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: namedroppers Subject: [dnsext] Draft: WGLC draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-tcp-requirements Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.67 on 10.20.30.4 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: Dear Colleagues, This message starts a Working Group Last Call for "DNS Transport over TCP - Implementation Requirements" http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dnsext/draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-tcp-requirements/ This WGLC will conclude on midnight March 31st 2010 UTC. This document is aimied at the standards track, if published, will update RFC1034 and RFC1123. The docoument states in clear modern standards language the TCP requirements for implementations. Please send a message to namedroppers that you have reviewed the document and whether you support it. Olafur From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Feb 15 16:54:22 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16F0128C158; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 16:54:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.606 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.606 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.111, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ob78THlrBOhx; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 16:54:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 456C028B797; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 16:54:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NhBeK-0007nn-Tv for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 00:50:48 +0000 Received: from [66.92.146.20] (helo=stora.ogud.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NhBeI-0007mu-5E for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 00:50:46 +0000 Received: from [IPv6:::1] (nyttbox.md.ogud.com [10.20.30.4]) by stora.ogud.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o1G0og2R096260 for ; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 19:50:42 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from ogud@ogud.com) Message-ID: <4B79EBE3.7090500@ogud.com> Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 19:50:43 -0500 From: Olafur Gudmundsson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.1; en-GB; rv:1.9.1.7) Gecko/20100111 Thunderbird/3.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: namedroppers Subject: Re: [dnsext] Draft: WGLC draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-tcp-requirements References: <4B79D64C.1050702@ogud.com> In-Reply-To: <4B79D64C.1050702@ogud.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.67 on 10.20.30.4 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: Just for the record this is not a Draft but full WGCL, sorry for the cut and paste error :-( Olafur On 15/02/2010 6:18 PM, Olafur Gudmundsson wrote: > Dear Colleagues, > > This message starts a Working Group Last Call for "DNS Transport over > TCP - Implementation Requirements" > http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dnsext/draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-tcp-requirements/ > > This WGLC will conclude on midnight March 31st 2010 UTC. > > This document is aimied at the standards track, if published, will > update RFC1034 and RFC1123. The docoument states in clear modern > standards language the TCP requirements for implementations. > > Please send a message to namedroppers that you have reviewed the > document and whether you support it. > > Olafur > > > From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Feb 15 18:07:38 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E71AC3A7C05; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 18:07:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.545 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.545 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.054, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id irHFhAUY3Iec; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 18:07:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 838303A7C03; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 18:07:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NhClh-000GrG-PT for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 02:02:29 +0000 Received: from [2001:4f8:3:bb::5] (helo=farside.isc.org) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NhCld-000Gqt-Ra for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 02:02:25 +0000 Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (drugs.dv.isc.org [IPv6:2001:470:1f00:820:214:22ff:fed9:fbdc]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "drugs.dv.isc.org", Issuer "ISC CA" (not verified)) by farside.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CECECE606C; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 02:02:24 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marka@isc.org) Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by drugs.dv.isc.org (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o1G22IZ7006029; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 13:02:19 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from marka@drugs.dv.isc.org) Message-Id: <201002160202.o1G22IZ7006029@drugs.dv.isc.org> To: Olafur Gudmundsson Cc: namedroppers From: Mark Andrews References: <4B79D64C.1050702@ogud.com> Subject: Re: [dnsext] Draft: WGLC draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-tcp-requirements In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 15 Feb 2010 18:18:36 CDT." <4B79D64C.1050702@ogud.com> Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 13:02:18 +1100 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: Most DNS [RFC1035] transactions take place over UDP [RFC0792]. The TCP [RFC0793] is used for zone transfers and for the transfer of other packets which exceed the protocol's original 512 byte packet- size limit. "The TCP is used" just doesn't read correct. "TCP is used" or "The TCP protocol is used". Yes I know the later is like saying "PIN number" Which "protocol" is not clear in "exceed the protocol's original". Also it's the UDP message limit not the UDP packet size limit. The later is at least 540 bytes without IP options. Most DNS [RFC1035] transactions take place over UDP [RFC0792]. TCP [RFC0793] is used for zone transfers and for the transfer of other packets which exceed the DNS's original 512 byte UDP message size limit. -- Mark Andrews, ISC 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: marka@isc.org From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Feb 15 20:48:20 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 618A828C129; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 20:48:20 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.698 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.698 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.700, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_UK=1.749, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PWODss4w6k93; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 20:48:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D3D528C0D0; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 20:48:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NhFGa-0008N9-QW for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 04:42:32 +0000 Received: from [213.248.199.23] (helo=mx3.nominet.org.uk) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NhFGX-0008Mi-Em; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 04:42:29 +0000 DomainKey-Signature: s=main.dk.nominet.selector; d=nominet.org.uk; c=nofws; q=dns; h=X-IronPort-AV:Received:In-Reply-To:References:To:Cc: Subject:MIME-Version:X-Mailer:Message-ID:From:Date: X-MIMETrack:Content-Type; b=qtOI7jAjAuRTJDomPu3y5a9Op1ANUh6yKdl+4nphVermtxEtkTZEua5a WBvvwCATmhSi6DQa+ZjCXqzTSUylR+7w3KjY7o/ZHTegL9Mroa9+XM5/g Xn1A0oeSJGpTZXc; DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nominet.org.uk; i=roy@nominet.org.uk; q=dns/txt; s=main.dkim.nominet.selector; t=1266295349; x=1297831349; h=from:sender:reply-to:subject:date:message-id:to:cc: mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:content-id: content-description:resent-date:resent-from:resent-sender: resent-to:resent-cc:resent-message-id:in-reply-to: references:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe: list-subscribe:list-post:list-owner:list-archive; z=From:=20"Roy=20Arends"=20|Subject: =20Re:=20[dnsext]=20Result=20of=20expert=20review=20for =20RRTYPE=20request:=20TALINK|Date:=20Mon,=2015=20Feb=202 010=2023:42:26=20-0500|Message-ID:=20 |To:=20Alfred=20=3D?ISO-8859-1?Q?H=3DF6nes?=3D=20|Cc:=20namedroppers@ops.ietf.org,=0D=0A=09owner-nam edroppers@ops.ietf.org|MIME-Version:=201.0|In-Reply-To: =20<201002141636.RAA11275@TR-Sys.de>|References:=20<20100 2141636.RAA11275@TR-Sys.de>; bh=smFkye5emiMOYK1RzpPJhmcVxeVQdH/n3tbN8wcS5GE=; b=0MeH3heB5gf/+3/7dkM3Zhr8fHGfBWTRpalojFXFCy+ZEdhzGIJB6kRr RNTRlpTo3kJWiW7ZRURHsRgrQSGDZRF/4g89q040dl7Gt5Nc1D5tfaGpV Bnng6Z8bqMMM0cB; X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.49,481,1262563200"; d="scan'208";a="21766036" Received: from notes1.nominet.org.uk ([213.248.197.128]) by mx3.nominet.org.uk with ESMTP; 16 Feb 2010 04:42:27 +0000 In-Reply-To: <201002141636.RAA11275@TR-Sys.de> References: <201002141636.RAA11275@TR-Sys.de> To: Alfred =?ISO-8859-1?Q?H=F6nes?= Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org, owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] Result of expert review for RRTYPE request: TALINK MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Build V85_M2_08202008 August 20, 2008 Message-ID: From: "Roy Arends" Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 23:42:26 -0500 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on notes1/Nominet(Release 7.0.1FP1 | May 25, 2006) at 16/02/2010 04:42:26 AM, Serialize complete at 16/02/2010 04:42:26 AM Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_alternative 0019E099052576CC_=" Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: This is a multipart message in MIME format. --=_alternative 0019E099052576CC_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Alfred H=F6nes wrote on 02/14/2010 11:36:52 AM: > At Sat, 13 Feb 2010 10:22:35 -0500 , Roy Arends wrote: >=20 > > Dear colleagues, > > > > After due consideration under the terms of RFC 5395, the request > > for the RRTYPE assignment TALINK has been approved. >=20 > This approval now refers to > draft-wijngaards-dnsop-trust-history-02 > -- correct? Correct! Roy --=_alternative 0019E099052576CC_= Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Alfred H=F6nes wrote on 02/14/2010 11:36:52 AM:

> At Sat, 13 Feb 2010 10:22:35 -0500 , Roy Arends wrote:
>
> > Dear colleagues,
> >
> > After due consideration under the terms of RFC 5395, the request<= br> > > for the RRTYPE assignment TALINK has been approved.
>
> This approval now refers to
>          draft-wijngaards-dnsop-trust-history= -02
> -- correct?
Correct!

Roy --=_alternative 0019E099052576CC_=-- From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Feb 15 21:39:46 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A0053A70FC; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 21:39:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.079 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.079 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.016, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HABEAS_ACCREDITED_SOI=-4.3, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RCVD_IN_BSP_TRUSTED=-4.3, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wySKcm8yxwmr; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 21:39:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49BD13A68C7; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 21:39:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NhG7O-000ETR-O6 for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 05:37:06 +0000 Received: from [64.57.183.53] (helo=gal.iecc.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NhG7L-000ESL-Fh for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 05:37:03 +0000 Received: (qmail 32693 invoked from network); 16 Feb 2010 05:37:02 -0000 Received: from mail1.iecc.com (64.57.183.56) by mail1.iecc.com with QMQP; 16 Feb 2010 05:37:02 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:cc:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=k1002; olt=johnl@user.iecc.com; bh=mohAomwM9+Vwhcf/WXn7m05vwSjUS/6s4RCs9P9Ms3k=; b=s+CwZ5NDE+PDk2weFmDTd8j9+1A5jpLcOHnjc3Je98qeem8BfVrIS5+x5cSBPfsdDsDKXgZeDGismmudUENlqYT8vgOPBPizSuZD6UqZ+tsWHxb1UJGJSmVgwPt8O4AHSbo+PLkcJmwtppm2dADBF/QMj4Oq0Htl6SljjXGYNFQ= Date: 16 Feb 2010 08:37:02 -0000 Message-ID: <20100216083702.41853.qmail@simone.iecc.com> From: John Levine To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: Difficulty with new RRTYPEs (was: [dnsext] Another CNAME question) In-Reply-To: <20100215142224.GB25973@shinkuro.com> Organization: Cc: ajs@shinkuro.com X-Headerized: yes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: >What makes that so hard? The biggest problem is crudware web provisioning systems that only know about specific record types. I can shove anything into my own DNS server, but I can't explain to a thousand people using random provisioning systems provided by their web host or domain registrar how to add a new record type. > Why do you think it's like that? Sad experience. > And what would need to change for you to feel that it was no longer the case? Rewrite a very large amount of user facing software. R's, John From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Feb 15 22:01:12 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB96B3A74F9; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 22:01:12 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.327 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.327 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.832, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id H71aFfE-FYoF; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 22:01:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A71B03A726D; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 22:01:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NhGRq-000Gzq-6b for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 05:58:14 +0000 Received: from [64.18.2.177] (helo=exprod7og112.obsmtp.com) by psg.com with smtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NhGRn-000Gyv-3N for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 05:58:11 +0000 Received: from source ([64.89.228.229]) (using TLSv1) by exprod7ob112.postini.com ([64.18.6.12]) with SMTP ID DSNKS3oz8fku9YH3uJnZw+NjeLXGcmtnEpup@postini.com; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 21:58:11 PST Received: from webmail.nominum.com (webmail.nominum.com [64.89.228.50]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-MD5 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "webmail.nominum.com", Issuer "Go Daddy Secure Certification Authority" (verified OK)) by shell-too.nominum.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57D261B82D9 for ; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 21:58:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from vpna-148.vpn.nominum.com (64.89.227.148) by exchange-01.win.nominum.com (64.89.228.50) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.393.1; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 21:58:09 -0800 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) Subject: Re: Difficulty with new RRTYPEs (was: [dnsext] Another CNAME question) From: Ted Lemon In-Reply-To: <20100216083702.41853.qmail@simone.iecc.com> Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 22:58:07 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-ID: References: <20100216083702.41853.qmail@simone.iecc.com> To: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On Feb 16, 2010, at 1:37 AM, John Levine wrote: > The biggest problem is crudware web provisioning systems that only > know about specific record types. I can shove anything into my own > DNS server, but I can't explain to a thousand people using random > provisioning systems provided by their web host or domain registrar > how to add a new record type. I can totally relate. But this seems like a really lousy reason not to = add a new RRtype. How is this problem ever going to get fixed if it = doesn't cause anyone any obvious pain? People will notice if they need = to add a new RRtype and their admin system doesn't support it, but they = will not notice if you don't add any new RRtypes to the standard. So = to me this is an argument in favor of adding new RRtypes. I wouldn't = propose adding new RRtypes just to get people to update their antiquated = provisioning systems, but if you've got a new RRtype, this is an = additional service it can perform. From dnsext-archive@ietf.org Mon Feb 15 22:28:17 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8E533A7A8F for ; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 22:28:16 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.504 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.504 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2=4.395, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_24=1.552, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_02=0.383, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_FROM_DRUGS=1.666, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.931, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_SBL=20, URI_HEX=0.368, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FIAfZJ+s6PaV for ; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 22:28:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from 72-194-231-201.fibertel.com.ar (72-194-231-201.fibertel.com.ar [201.231.194.72]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F1683A7C25 for ; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 22:28:03 -0800 (PST) From: "VIAGRA from Pfizer" To: dnsext-archive@ietf.org Subject: dnsext-archive Winter -80% Deals Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <20100216062803.8F1683A7C25@core3.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 22:28:03 -0800 (PST) December 2009
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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Feb 15 23:38:41 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3DCE3A77AE; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 23:38:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.849 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.849 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.250, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fI8yIDYT+QhR; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 23:38:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8B953A7171; Mon, 15 Feb 2010 23:38:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NhHwn-0004bm-RR for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 07:34:17 +0000 Received: from [2001:4f8:3:bb:230:48ff:fe5a:2f38] (helo=nsa.vix.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:CAMELLIA256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NhHwl-0004bV-06 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 07:34:15 +0000 Received: from nsa.vix.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nsa.vix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A86AAA9BF3 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 07:34:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vixie@nsa.vix.com) From: Paul Vixie To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: [dnsext] Position statement of Paul Vixie on DNS name equivalence In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 10 Feb 2010 09:58:36 EST." <20100210145836.GA5187@shinkuro.com> References: <20100210145836.GA5187@shinkuro.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.1; nil; GNU Emacs 22.2.1 Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 07:34:14 +0000 Message-ID: <18122.1266305654@nsa.vix.com> Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: > Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 09:58:36 -0500 > From: Andrew Sullivan > > We'll only have an hour, so to ensure we have a good basis for > discussion we'd appreciate it if anyone having a position statement > post it to the list in advance, so that people can read it and > understand it. hereis. note that the webex *.ICS file says 3 hours, not 1 hour. > Please post it with the Subject "Position statement of $NAME on DNS name > equivalence", and please don't use another thread in which to post > (i.e. send a fresh message to namedroppers, and don't reply to some other > message). If you have already posted a position, it'd be great if you > could post a new message with a link to the archive, using the Subject: > convention above. my position is, there's definitely a problem to solve here. IDN can't use DNAME since DNAME does not redirect its owner name, only subdomains thereof. there may be other reasons to create equivilencies between namespaces, but IDN is the problem child of the moment. i like BNAME (which is just a fixed DNAME, that also redirects its owner name), and i think it should go forward. this won't create first class names -- since they can't be referred to in MX or NS or PTR -- but they will be application-visible and will thus serve many use cases. i like zone clones (which is just syntactic configuration sugar in the registrant's authority servers) since it creates first class names in a standardized multivendor way, requiring only parallel NS delegations in the registry. i think zone clones should also go forward. if BNAME and zone clones both go forward, then it's difficult to imagine a use case that can't be met by one or the other. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Feb 16 00:12:23 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 202B43A7AAC; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 00:12:23 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.048 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.048 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DS+1zo3L+N8v; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 00:12:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D83183A7B07; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 00:12:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NhIUp-0009RZ-GG for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 08:09:27 +0000 Received: from [83.145.227.89] (helo=gusev.araneus.fi) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NhIUj-0009Qd-UQ for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 08:09:22 +0000 Received: from guava.gson.org (guava.gson.org [83.145.227.105]) by gusev.araneus.fi (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82EEE91C1F; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 10:09:47 +0200 (EET) Received: by guava.gson.org (Postfix, from userid 101) id 971C375FB0; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 10:09:18 +0200 (EET) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <19322.21166.344190.141076@guava.gson.org> Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 10:09:18 +0200 To: Alfred Hoenes Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: [dnsext] Re: polishing of draft-ietf-dnsext-rfc3597-bis-01 In-Reply-To: <201001271512.QAA08220@TR-Sys.de> References: <201001271512.QAA08220@TR-Sys.de> X-Mailer: VM 8.0.14 under 21.4.1 (i386--netbsdelf) From: Andreas Gustafsson Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: Alfred Hoenes wrote: > A few notes on the revised "Handling of Unknown RR Types" draft, > draft-ietf-dnsext-rfc3597-bis-01. Thank you for your continued review, and sorry that I have taken this long to respond. > (1) Definitions > > The draft has a useful Section 2, "Definitions". > However, the definition of "well-known RR type" is buried in > Section 4. I suggest to move that definition into Section 2 > and adjust the text in Section 4 accordingly. For instance: > > Append a new paragraph to Section 2: > > A "RR of well-known type" is hereby specified as having one of the > RR types defined in [RFC1035]. (This term has been introduced by > [RFC3597] and is not changed herby.) > > Edit the 2nd paragraph of Section 4: > > To avoid such corruption, servers MUST NOT compress domain names > embedded in the RDATA of types that are class-specific or not well- > known. This requirement was stated in [RFC1123] without defining the > | term "well-known"; it is hereby specified that only the RR types > | defined in [RFC1035] are to be considered "well-known". > --- > To avoid such corruption, servers MUST NOT compress domain names > embedded in the RDATA of types that are class-specific or not well- > known. This requirement was stated in [RFC1123] without defining the > | term "well-known" (now introduced in Section 2 above). I'm not convinced this would be an improvement. The text you propose moving is not really a "definition" in the sense of defining a term for use within the document itself; rather, it prescribes a particular interpretation of a term in RFC1123, and thereby forms an integral part of the protocol specification. As such, I still think it belongs in section 4 rather than in section 2. > (2) Text Representation -- format rules > > The list of 'word' in Section 5 might be improved visually > by making use of "symbols" type list format, e.g. using dashes > or asterisks. Agreed, but I'm not sure how to do this in "nroff -ms" (the document is based on the original RFC3597 nroff source); hints are welcome. > Also, guided by the example at the end of the section, I suggest > to refer to the RFC 1035 rules for line folding (using parentheses). > The introductory clause only talks about white space; so some > elaborations as to what is regarded white space here seem to be > appropriate. (Similarity to the "CFWS" construct in email!) > After re-reading the related part of RFC 1035, I therefore also > suggest adding a note that recalls the possibility of semicolon- > delimited end-of-line comments as defined in RFC 1035. > > These additions hopefully make the specification here more self- > contained (last para of Section 1!) and admonish implementers to not > forget the general rules. :-) Point taken regarding properly defining the term "white space". RFC1035 says "Any combination of tabs and spaces act as a delimiter between the separate items that make up an entry", so I will change the text to be consistent with this terminology, including replacing the term "word" by "item". That is, I will replace The RDATA section of an RR of unknown type is represented as a sequence of white space separated words as follows: by The RDATA section of an RR of unknown type is represented as a sequence of items separated by any combination of tabs and spaces, as follows: As to the general rules regarding parentheses and end-of-line comments in master files, as much as I would like to educate readers about them, I don't think that is within the scope of the current document. > (3) Change Summary > > We are going to obsolete RFC 3597 and heading for DS with this draft. > IESG rules thus require describing the differences of the memo from > its predecessor in some part of the document that is not doomed to be > stripped off by the RFC Editor. > > Therefore, it might be wise to add a section (or Appendix) > "Changes Since RFC 3597" that gives a condensed summary of > the current Appendix A. Will do, but I'm still curious as to where these IESG rules are documented - do you have a reference? Regards, -- Andreas Gustafsson, gson@araneus.fi From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Feb 16 00:57:51 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2EE0B28C121; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 00:57:51 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.048 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.048 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.750, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_UK=1.749, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iOaS1rVKtJF5; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 00:57:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7326328C13E; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 00:57:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NhJCg-000EoS-Ie for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 08:54:46 +0000 Received: from [213.248.199.23] (helo=mx3.nominet.org.uk) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NhJCd-000Eo6-7C for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 08:54:43 +0000 DomainKey-Signature: s=main.dk.nominet.selector; d=nominet.org.uk; c=nofws; q=dns; h=X-IronPort-AV:Received:In-Reply-To:References:To:Cc: Subject:MIME-Version:X-Mailer:Message-ID:From:Date: X-MIMETrack:Content-Type; b=u3E2jYQqmeyqa4ZnGO/Kx9pz+BM6OOEea9AA33aTg5h2EBLCO1GKCRs5 nXyuB8IOR5hcCyZ0kSAbnMNifnOCIMDAlun+hl0jC19NZcv0AWyDaMTDi NPiMFdKBvzEP2Fp; DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nominet.org.uk; i=Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk; q=dns/txt; s=main.dkim.nominet.selector; t=1266310483; x=1297846483; h=from:sender:reply-to:subject:date:message-id:to:cc: mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:content-id: content-description:resent-date:resent-from:resent-sender: resent-to:resent-cc:resent-message-id:in-reply-to: references:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe: list-subscribe:list-post:list-owner:list-archive; z=From:=20Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk|Subject:=20Re:=20[dnse xt]=20Draft:=20WGLC=20draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-tcp-requireme nts|Date:=20Tue,=2016=20Feb=202010=2008:54:40=20+0000 |Message-ID:=20|To:=20Mark=20Andrews=20< marka@isc.org>|Cc:=20namedroppers=20|MIME-Version:=201.0|In-Reply-To:=20<201002160202.o 1G22IZ7006029@drugs.dv.isc.org>|References:=20<4B79D64C.1 050702@ogud.com>=20<201002160202.o1G22IZ7006029@drugs.dv. isc.org>; bh=7ESkr1A2fPfojNWMdEW6GLPqrOmmPT5+CKDbHsPcj7g=; b=RFz/iFaK9l1DXhf+oyXUQBBs33Wd2gcoVx62MUoDOqK+5DGQqLXQlEYy GFhSWX8Ak7GhSqP/4FlJ9okhpGFNvF7ILFKNoe2b3FyE7SpUWnKLY3PM7 WC1XrS1ixj2tOdA; X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.49,483,1262563200"; d="scan'208";a="21770660" Received: from notes1.nominet.org.uk ([213.248.197.128]) by mx3.nominet.org.uk with ESMTP; 16 Feb 2010 08:54:41 +0000 In-Reply-To: <201002160202.o1G22IZ7006029@drugs.dv.isc.org> References: <4B79D64C.1050702@ogud.com> <201002160202.o1G22IZ7006029@drugs.dv.isc.org> To: Mark Andrews Cc: namedroppers Subject: Re: [dnsext] Draft: WGLC draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-tcp-requirements MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 8.5 December 05, 2008 Message-ID: From: Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 08:54:40 +0000 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on notes1/Nominet(Release 7.0.1FP1 | May 25, 2006) at 16/02/2010 08:54:40 AM, Serialize complete at 16/02/2010 08:54:40 AM Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_alternative 0030F359802576CC_=" Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: This is a multipart message in MIME format. --=_alternative 0030F359802576CC_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > Most DNS [RFC1035] transactions take place over UDP [RFC0792]. The > TCP [RFC0793] is used for zone transfers and for the transfer of > other packets which exceed the protocol's original 512 byte packet- > size limit. > > > "The TCP is used" just doesn't read correct. > > "TCP is used" or "The TCP protocol is used". Yes I know the > later is like saying "PIN number" > > Which "protocol" is not clear in "exceed the protocol's original". > > > Also it's the UDP message limit not the UDP packet size limit. The later > is at least 540 bytes without IP options. > > Most DNS [RFC1035] transactions take place over UDP [RFC0792]. > TCP [RFC0793] is used for zone transfers and for the transfer of > other packets which exceed the DNS's original 512 byte UDP message > size limit. Thanks Mark, good spots. As those are just editorial I'll ensure they're resolved before this goes to the IESG. kind regards, Ray -- Ray Bellis, MA(Oxon) MIET Senior Researcher in Advanced Projects, Nominet e: ray@nominet.org.uk, t: +44 1865 332211 --=_alternative 0030F359802576CC_= Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
>    Most DNS [RFC1035] transactions take place over UDP [RFC0792].  The
>    TCP [RFC0793] is used for zone transfers and for the transfer of
>    other packets which exceed the protocol's original 512 byte packet-
>    size limit.
>
>
> "The TCP is used" just doesn't read correct.
>
> "TCP is used" or "The TCP protocol is used".  Yes I know the
> later is like saying "PIN number"
>
> Which "protocol" is not clear in "exceed the protocol's original".
>
>
> Also it's the UDP message limit not the UDP packet size limit.  The later
> is at least 540 bytes without IP options.
>
>    Most DNS [RFC1035] transactions take place over UDP [RFC0792].
>    TCP [RFC0793] is used for zone transfers and for the transfer of
>    other packets which exceed the DNS's original 512 byte UDP message
>    size limit.
Thanks Mark, good spots.  As those are just editorial I'll ensure they're resolved before this goes to the IESG.

kind regards,

Ray

--
Ray Bellis, MA(Oxon) MIET
Senior Researcher in Advanced Projects, Nominet
e: ray@nominet.org.uk, t: +44 1865 332211


 --=_alternative 0030F359802576CC_=-- From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Feb 16 02:30:45 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4821428C166; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 02:30:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 2.668 X-Spam-Level: ** X-Spam-Status: No, score=2.668 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-2.182, BAYES_00=-2.599, CHARSET_FARAWAY_HEADER=3.2, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, HELO_MISMATCH_DE=1.448, J_CHICKENPOX_43=0.6, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id owDJkHRpTyr6; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 02:30:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9E143A67DB; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 02:30:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NhKdi-0000Zv-48 for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 10:26:46 +0000 Received: from [213.178.172.147] (helo=TR-Sys.de) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NhKdc-0000Z4-GX for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 10:26:41 +0000 Received: from ZEUS.TR-Sys.de by w. with ESMTP ($Revision: 1.37.109.26 $/16.3.2) id AA119065975; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 11:26:16 +0100 Received: (from ah@localhost) by z.TR-Sys.de (8.9.3 (PHNE_25183)/8.7.3) id LAA15402; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 11:26:14 +0100 (MEZ) From: Alfred =?hp-roman8?B?SM5uZXM=?= Message-Id: <201002161026.LAA15402@TR-Sys.de> Subject: [dnsext] Re: polishing of draft-ietf-dnsext-rfc3597-bis-01 To: gson@araneus.fi Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 11:26:14 +0100 (MEZ) Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org In-Reply-To: <19322.21166.344190.141076@guava.gson.org> from Andreas Gustafsson at Feb "16," 2010 "10:09:18" am X-Mailer: ELM [$Revision: 1.17.214.3 $] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=hp-roman8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: Andreas, thanks for your detailed response. > Alfred Hoenes wrote: >> A few notes on the revised "Handling of Unknown RR Types" draft, >> draft-ietf-dnsext-rfc3597-bis-01. > > Thank you for your continued review, and sorry that I have taken this > long to respond. "this long" ?? No need to excuse! I'd been happy having the time to follow up to all pending threads this fast! :-) >> (1) Definitions >> >> The draft has a useful Section 2, "Definitions". >> However, the definition of "well-known RR type" is buried in >> Section 4. I suggest to move that definition into Section 2 >> and adjust the text in Section 4 accordingly. For instance: >> >> Append a new paragraph to Section 2: >> >> A "RR of well-known type" is hereby specified as having one of the >> RR types defined in [RFC1035]. (This term has been introduced by >> [RFC3597] and is not changed hereby.) >> >> Edit the 2nd paragraph of Section 4: >> >> To avoid such corruption, servers MUST NOT compress domain names >> embedded in the RDATA of types that are class-specific or not well- >> known. This requirement was stated in [RFC1123] without defining the >> | term "well-known"; it is hereby specified that only the RR types >> | defined in [RFC1035] are to be considered "well-known". >> --- >> To avoid such corruption, servers MUST NOT compress domain names >> embedded in the RDATA of types that are class-specific or not well- >> known. This requirement was stated in [RFC1123] without defining the >> | term "well-known" (now introduced in Section 2 above). > > I'm not convinced this would be an improvement. The text you propose > moving is not really a "definition" in the sense of defining a term > for use within the document itself; rather, it prescribes a particular > interpretation of a term in RFC1123, and thereby forms an integral > part of the protocol specification. As such, I still think it belongs > in section 4 rather than in section 2. Well, the improvement IMHO would be the central place to look for definitions, making it easier for future documents to include these definitions 'en bloc' by reference. Your argument is somehow valid as well. I thought I had taken care of the special role of this term in my proposed text via the parenthetical explanation. (I have corrected my spelling error in the quote above.) It would be possible to combine the benefits of a central repository of the terms used in the memo and at the same time leaving normative text in place, by using an "indirect" definition in Section 2, pointing to the normative text. For instance: | RFC 1123 [RFC1123] has used "RR of well-known type" without giving | a definition of the term. See Section 4 below for the normative | definition (originally introduced by [RFC3597]). >> (2) Text Representation -- format rules >> >> The list of 'word' in Section 5 might be improved visually >> by making use of "symbols" type list format, e.g. using dashes >> or asterisks. > > Agreed, but I'm not sure how to do this in "nroff -ms" (the document > is based on the original RFC3597 nroff source); hints are welcome. Sorry, I can't offer recent experience, but as the RFC Editor uses nroff for the final stage, it must be possible. Do you have the macros available that are described in Section 5.3.7.2 if draft-lilly-using-troff-05 ? There, bulleted lists are produced by using: .BL .LI first bulleted item .LI second bulleted item .LE Bruce Lilly's tmac.rfc nroff/troff macros are available from his web site as described in that draft. >> Also, guided by the example at the end of the section, I suggest >> to refer to the RFC 1035 rules for line folding (using parentheses). >> The introductory clause only talks about white space; so some >> elaborations as to what is regarded white space here seem to be >> appropriate. (Similarity to the "CFWS" construct in email!) >> After re-reading the related part of RFC 1035, I therefore also >> suggest adding a note that recalls the possibility of semicolon- >> delimited end-of-line comments as defined in RFC 1035. >> >> These additions hopefully make the specification here more self- >> contained (last para of Section 1!) and admonish implementers to not >> forget the general rules. :-) > > Point taken regarding properly defining the term "white space". > RFC1035 says "Any combination of tabs and spaces act as a delimiter > between the separate items that make up an entry", so I will change > the text to be consistent with this terminology, including replacing > the term "word" by "item". That is, I will replace > > The RDATA section of an RR of unknown type is represented as a > sequence of white space separated words as follows: > > by > > The RDATA section of an RR of unknown type is represented as a > sequence of items separated by any combination of tabs and > spaces, as follows: So I assume that you have applied the change of terminology to the 3rd item in the subsequent list (the only other occurrence of "word" in this sense). > As to the general rules regarding parentheses and end-of-line comments > in master files, as much as I would like to educate readers about > them, I don't think that is within the scope of the current document. Not sure. If these optional "decorations" were not mentioned in the normative text here, the reader could be led to the assumption that the draft text wanted to state an exemption from the general rules for the case on unknown RR types. >> (3) Change Summary >> >> We are going to obsolete RFC 3597 and heading for DS with this draft. >> IESG rules thus require describing the differences of the memo from >> its predecessor in some part of the document that is not doomed to be >> stripped off by the RFC Editor. >> >> Therefore, it might be wise to add a section (or Appendix) >> "Changes Since RFC 3597" that gives a condensed summary of >> the current Appendix A. > > Will do, but I'm still curious as to where these IESG rules are > documented - do you have a reference? I'm not aware of a written statement, but my brain leaks as well. In general, the well-known rule of "In the IETF it is most important to know which of the written rules are _not_ applied in practice" is likely to need an addition "... and which other, unwritten rules are expected to be followed closely." :-) > Regards, > -- > Andreas Gustafsson, gson@araneus.fi Kind regards, Alfred. -- +------------------------+--------------------------------------------+ | TR-Sys Alfred Hoenes | Alfred Hoenes Dipl.-Math., Dipl.-Phys. | | Gerlinger Strasse 12 | Phone: (+49)7156/9635-0, Fax: -18 | | D-71254 Ditzingen | E-Mail: ah@TR-Sys.de | +------------------------+--------------------------------------------+ From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Feb 16 03:03:28 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04F343A7B3A; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 03:03:28 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.294 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.294 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-2.799, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ztFHsJkA83T6; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 03:03:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27A303A7B39; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 03:03:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NhLAo-00050Z-1U for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 11:00:58 +0000 Received: from [195.54.233.65] (helo=hutch.rfc1035.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NhLAk-000506-Tn for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 11:00:55 +0000 Received: from gromit.rfc1035.com (gromit.rfc1035.com [195.54.233.69]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: jim) by hutch.rfc1035.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E3EE0154208B; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 11:00:51 +0000 (GMT) Cc: Alfred Hoenes , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Message-Id: <94596799-670C-4FF6-9AE2-610C189ECEEB@rfc1035.com> From: Jim Reid To: Andreas Gustafsson In-Reply-To: <19322.21166.344190.141076@guava.gson.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v936) Subject: [dnsext] troff tweaks for rfc3597-bis Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 11:00:51 +0000 References: <201001271512.QAA08220@TR-Sys.de> <19322.21166.344190.141076@guava.gson.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.936) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On 16 Feb 2010, at 08:09, Andreas Gustafsson wrote: >> The list of 'word' in Section 5 might be improved visually >> by making use of "symbols" type list format, e.g. using dashes >> or asterisks. > > Agreed, but I'm not sure how to do this in "nroff -ms" (the document > is based on the original RFC3597 nroff source); hints are welcome. Hi Andreas. The magic incantation is .IP \(bu bunch of text .IP \(bu some more text This gets [nt]roff to format the following text as an indented paragraph using \(bu -- the bullet character -- as a tag. Other tag characters or strings can be supplied as parameters to the IP macro. :-) It's nice to know that I'm not the only one who still uses troff... From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Feb 16 06:09:17 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2EFE33A797E; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 06:09:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.335 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.335 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-2.280, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, J_CHICKENPOX_37=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_84=0.6, RDNS_NONE=0.1, SARE_LWSHORTT=1.24] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id S8Ydj1EtxYMr; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 06:09:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC43F3A7315; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 06:09:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NhO2g-00039O-Ak for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 14:04:46 +0000 Received: from [66.92.146.20] (helo=stora.ogud.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NhO2X-00038C-LM for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 14:04:38 +0000 Received: from [IPv6:::1] (nyttbox.md.ogud.com [10.20.30.4]) by stora.ogud.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o1GE4SnR002199; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 09:04:28 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from ogud@ogud.com) Message-ID: <4B7AA5EC.4040508@ogud.com> Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 09:04:28 -0500 From: Olafur Gudmundsson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.1; en-GB; rv:1.9.1.7) Gecko/20100111 Thunderbird/3.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: YAO Jiankang CC: Andrew Sullivan , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] Position statement of Jiankang Yao on DNS name equivalence References: <465814831.24565@cnnic.cn> <466248785.15660@cnnic.cn> In-Reply-To: <466248785.15660@cnnic.cn> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.67 on 10.20.30.4 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: Thanks, Yao, for your response to the position statement. I wish other members of the working group had responed to it so we could have had some questions answered before our Interim meeting. Below are few points that I would like to understand better. On 15/02/2010 10:46 AM, YAO Jiankang wrote: > Dear all, > > below are my comments to the solution space: > >> 1. Do Nothing > > the wg should do something to solve dns name equivalence. > > ICANN need it for IDN TLD variant; users need it for about identical resolution of internet name variants; > > registry or registrar need it for dealling with bundling names. > >> 2. Recommend the problem be solved as a matter of provisioning > > The WG should do something. other wg can not solve it. > I kind of agree with this, but the working group may lay down a solution that is out-side the strict "protocol" space and a different WG may work on it. >> 3. Recommend the problem be solved in zone master servers: "clone" > > I support both zone clone and bname are used for solving name equivanlence. different users can select different methods : bname or zone clone based on their own needs. > In my personal mind I think "clone" type solution is the "short term" solution, but the one question what is the "long term" solution? >> 4. Provide operational guidance for supporting the goal using CNAME only > >> It is probably actually impossible to obtain the desired behaviour using only CNAME. But CNAME could be used as a mechanism to provide "aliases" for any terminal>name. > > partial solving the problem. > > > >> 5. Solve the problem using DNAME at the parent. > >> In combination with some provisioning tools, DNAME might be an adequate solution to this issue. DNAME entails some server-side processing, however. > > DNAME is not suitable for being deployed in the root. Why, please explain why you think DNAME will not work there. We know that some people have argued that DNAME in the root would couse too much overhead to do the CNAME synthesis, but that is FUD. Silightly bigger issue is Root and TLD's in general have is that their provisioning systems assume that the zones will ONLY contain NS records this on its own may not be sufficient reason to reject this particlular approach. If there is a differen reason that resticts the this solution or any other @parent solution, I would like it on the table. Note: change in operation or contracts required, IMHO is not sufficient. All parties invoved MUST be willing to adopt to the solution proposed for it to have a chance to succeed. For the record DNAME@parent has the has the potentail to have one of lowest operating costs of all solutions, as there is no need to maintain a "clone" or do DNSSEC for the clone. > >> 6. Recommend delegation to zones using DNAME at the child > >> Instead of using DNAMEs at the parent side, the parent could delegate as though the zone is a completely different zone, but require as a matter of contract that the>variant zones include a DNAME for the name, and all and only DNS RRs for non-DNS-control records must also match. (So, for instance, NS records in the variant,>and the SOA record or any RRSIG record, need not match. But for every A record at the main name, there must be a corresponding A record at each variant name,>and for every A record at a variant name, there must be a corresponding A record at the main name.) > > may work, but also entails some server-side processing due to the synthesized CNAME with TTL zero. > > > >> 7. Alter the specification of DNAME > >> 7.a to permit combination with CNAME > >> The combination of CNAME and DNAME would allow an entire tree to be aliased without difficulty. This is a backwards-incompatible change, however. > > agree. > >> 7.b To follow DNAME target if requested type does not exist with the DNAME > >> This change basically changes the DNAME from translating below the target to translate to the target when ever the DNAME rules apply at the QNAME. > > this also has some backwards-incompatible problems. > Almost any protcol change has either backwards-incompatible problem or a "wait-for-deployment" problem. The question is going to be which one is are we going to tolerate and which one we think can be deployed faster. >> 8. Do (7) except with a new RRTYPE > >> This is the "BNAME" proposal, more or less. http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-yao-dnsext-bname-01.txt > > :) I support this. > BNAME is one possilbe solution not the only one :-) > >> 9. Provide an aliasing mechanism that points to an NS record, and which is not allowed to be part of a chain. > > not suitable for ICNN IDN TLD variants. > > Please explain why ? On the face of it this is equivalent to BNAME@parent w/o chain following. Olafur From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Feb 16 06:35:25 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4DFAE3A7AF9; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 06:35:25 -0800 (PST) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Duplicate header field: "Message-ID" X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.419 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.419 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.130, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, MIME_BASE64_BLANKS=0.041, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER=0.803, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bcqSTnIFmIaX; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 06:35:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 667223A7993; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 06:35:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NhOTv-0007Ij-QE for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 14:32:55 +0000 Received: from [159.226.7.146] (helo=cnnic.cn) by psg.com with smtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NhOTt-0007I4-4X for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 14:32:53 +0000 Received: (eyou send program); Tue, 16 Feb 2010 22:32:51 +0800 Message-ID: <466330771.08201@cnnic.cn> X-EYOUMAIL-SMTPAUTH: yaojk@cnnic.cn Received: from unknown (HELO lenovo47e041cf) (127.0.0.1) by 127.0.0.1 with SMTP; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 22:32:51 +0800 Message-ID: From: "YAO Jiankang" To: "Olafur Gudmundsson" Cc: "Andrew Sullivan" , References: <465814831.24565@cnnic.cn> <466248785.15660@cnnic.cn> <4B7AA5EC.4040508@ogud.com> Subject: Re: [dnsext] Position statement of Jiankang Yao on DNS name equivalence Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 22:32:51 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5843 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: DQotLS0tLSBPcmlnaW5hbCBNZXNzYWdlIC0tLS0tIA0KRnJvbTogIk9sYWZ1ciBHdWRtdW5kc3Nv biIgPG9ndWRAb2d1ZC5jb20+DQpUbzogIllBTyBKaWFua2FuZyIgPHlhb2prQGNubmljLmNuPg0K Q2M6ICJBbmRyZXcgU3VsbGl2YW4iIDxhanNAc2hpbmt1cm8uY29tPjsgPG5hbWVkcm9wcGVyc0Bv cHMuaWV0Zi5vcmc+DQpTZW50OiBUdWVzZGF5LCBGZWJydWFyeSAxNiwgMjAxMCAxMDowNCBQTQ0K U3ViamVjdDogUmU6IFtkbnNleHRdIFBvc2l0aW9uIHN0YXRlbWVudCBvZiBKaWFua2FuZyBZYW8g b24gRE5TIG5hbWUgZXF1aXZhbGVuY2UNCg0KDQoNCj4+PiA1LiBTb2x2ZSB0aGUgcHJvYmxlbSB1 c2luZyBETkFNRSBhdCB0aGUgcGFyZW50Lg0KPj4NCj4+PiBJbiBjb21iaW5hdGlvbiB3aXRoIHNv bWUgcHJvdmlzaW9uaW5nIHRvb2xzLCBETkFNRSBtaWdodCBiZSBhbiBhZGVxdWF0ZSBzb2x1dGlv biB0byB0aGlzIGlzc3VlLiBETkFNRSBlbnRhaWxzIHNvbWUgc2VydmVyLXNpZGUgcHJvY2Vzc2lu ZywgaG93ZXZlci4NCj4+DQo+PiBETkFNRSBpcyBub3Qgc3VpdGFibGUgZm9yIGJlaW5nIGRlcGxv eWVkIGluIHRoZSByb290Lg0KPiANCj4gV2h5LCBwbGVhc2UgZXhwbGFpbiB3aHkgeW91IHRoaW5r IEROQU1FIHdpbGwgbm90IHdvcmsgdGhlcmUuDQo+IFdlIGtub3cgdGhhdCBzb21lIHBlb3BsZSBo YXZlIGFyZ3VlZCB0aGF0IEROQU1FIGluIHRoZSByb290IHdvdWxkIGNvdXNlDQo+IHRvbyBtdWNo IG92ZXJoZWFkIHRvIGRvIHRoZSBDTkFNRSBzeW50aGVzaXMsIGJ1dCB0aGF0IGlzIEZVRC4NCj4g U2lsaWdodGx5IGJpZ2dlciBpc3N1ZSBpcyBSb290IGFuZCBUTEQncyBpbiBnZW5lcmFsIGhhdmUg aXMgdGhhdCB0aGVpcg0KPiBwcm92aXNpb25pbmcgc3lzdGVtcyBhc3N1bWUgdGhhdCB0aGUgem9u ZXMgd2lsbCBPTkxZIGNvbnRhaW4gTlMgcmVjb3Jkcw0KPiB0aGlzIG9uIGl0cyBvd24gbWF5IG5v dCBiZSBzdWZmaWNpZW50IHJlYXNvbiB0byByZWplY3QgdGhpcyBwYXJ0aWNsdWxhcg0KPiBhcHBy b2FjaC4NCj4gSWYgdGhlcmUgaXMgYSBkaWZmZXJlbiByZWFzb24gdGhhdCByZXN0aWN0cyB0aGUg dGhpcyBzb2x1dGlvbiBvciBhbnkgDQo+IG90aGVyIEBwYXJlbnQgc29sdXRpb24sIEkgd291bGQg bGlrZSBpdCBvbiB0aGUgdGFibGUuDQo+IE5vdGU6IGNoYW5nZSBpbiBvcGVyYXRpb24gb3IgY29u dHJhY3RzIHJlcXVpcmVkLCBJTUhPIGlzIG5vdCBzdWZmaWNpZW50Lg0KPiBBbGwgcGFydGllcyBp bnZvdmVkIE1VU1QgYmUgd2lsbGluZyB0byBhZG9wdCB0byB0aGUgc29sdXRpb24gcHJvcG9zZWQg DQo+IGZvciBpdCB0byBoYXZlIGEgY2hhbmNlIHRvIHN1Y2NlZWQuDQo+IA0KPiBGb3IgdGhlIHJl Y29yZCBETkFNRUBwYXJlbnQgaGFzIHRoZSBoYXMgdGhlIHBvdGVudGFpbCB0byBoYXZlIG9uZQ0K PiBvZiBsb3dlc3Qgb3BlcmF0aW5nIGNvc3RzIG9mIGFsbCBzb2x1dGlvbnMsIGFzIHRoZXJlIGlz IG5vIG5lZWQgdG8gDQo+IG1haW50YWluIGEgImNsb25lIiBvciBkbyBETlNTRUMgZm9yIHRoZSBj bG9uZS4NCj4gDQoNCg0KSUNBTk4gaGFzIGV2YXVsYXRlZCBhbmQgZGlzY3Vzc2VkIGRuYW1lIG1h bnkgeWVhcnMuIHNvIHRoYXQgdGhlcmUgaXMgc3RpbGwgbm8gY29uY2x1c2lvbiBhYm91dCBkbmFt ZS4NCm9uZSByZWFzb24gSSB0aGluayBtaWdodCBiZSB0aGF0IHRoZSBjdXJyZW50IFJGQzI2NzIg c3BlY2lmeSB0aGUgc3ludGhlc2l6ZWQgQ05BTUUgd2l0aCBUVEwgemVybywgd2hpY2ggd2lsbCBj YXVzZSBtYW55IHByb2JsZW1zIHRvIHJvb3Qgc2VydmVycy4NCg0Kb3RoZXIgcmVhc29uIG1pZ2h0 IGJlIHRoYXQgc2luY2UgRE5BTUUgb25seSBtYXBzIHRoZSBkZXNjZW5kYW50cywgbm90IGl0c2Vs Zi4gc28gbWFueSByZWdpc3RyeSByZXByZXNlbnRpdmVzIGRvIG5vdCBwcmVmZXIgdGhlbS4NCnNv bWUgbGlrZSB0aGVtLCBzb21lIGRpc2xpa2UgdGhlbWUuDQoNCkkgc3VibWl0dGVkIGEgZHJhZnQg YWJvdXQgImRyYWZ0LXlhby1kbnNvcC1pZG50bGQtaW1wbGVtZW50YXRpb24iIGluIGRuc29wIGFu ZCBkaXNjdXNzZWQgaW4gdGhlIGxhc3QgaWV0ZiBtZWV0aW5nLg0Kb25lIHNvbHV0aW9uIGlzIHN1 Z2dlc3RlZCB0byB1c2UgZG5hbWUsIGJ1dCBubyBvbmUgcHJlZmVyIGl0LiBZb3UgbWF5IGZvbGxv dyBzb21lIGRpc2N1c3Npb25zIGluIHRoZSBkbnNvcCBsaXN0IGFib3V0ICJkcmFmdC15YW8tZG5z b3AtaWRudGxkLWltcGxlbWVudGF0aW9uIg0KZm9yIG1vcmUgaW5mb3JtYXRpb24uDQoNCg0K From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Feb 16 06:52:36 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 999753A7B55; 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Tue, 16 Feb 2010 14:49:46 +0000 (GMT) From: Jim Reid To: "YAO Jiankang" In-Reply-To: <466330771.08201@cnnic.cn> Subject: Re: [dnsext] Position statement of Jiankang Yao on DNS name equivalence X-Priority: 3 References: <465814831.24565@cnnic.cn> <466248785.15660@cnnic.cn> <4B7AA5EC.4040508@ogud.com> <466330771.08201@cnnic.cn> Message-Id: <781052E5-88EE-42BA-A116-68D82C0D7DFD@rfc1035.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v936) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 14:49:45 +0000 Cc: "Olafur Gudmundsson" , "Andrew Sullivan" , X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.936) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On 16 Feb 2010, at 14:32, YAO Jiankang wrote: > ICANN has evaulated and discussed dname many years. so that there is > still no conclusion about dname. That may be true. But it doesn't matter. ICANN isn't in a position to make technical decisions about the DNS protocol or define standards. That's the job of this WG and our colleagues in dnsop. > other reason might be that since DNAME only maps the descendants, > not itself. so many registry representives do not prefer them. > some like them, some dislike theme. This may well be true too. However there should be strong technical or engineering reasons to support non-trivial changes to the DNS protocol. IMO these need to be on firmer grounds than some people don't like certain protocol features or the operational impact of using them. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Feb 16 06:56:14 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7D453A7B6A; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 06:56:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.564 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.564 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.964, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_INFO=1.448, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dMRFHFiD1o9T; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 06:56:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0AE83A7B55; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 06:56:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NhOoT-000ADc-U6 for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 14:54:09 +0000 Received: from [208.86.224.201] (helo=mail.yitter.info) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:CAMELLIA256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NhOoQ-000ACP-VA for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 14:54:07 +0000 Received: from crankycanuck.ca (69-196-144-230.dsl.teksavvy.com [69.196.144.230]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.yitter.info (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 7788D1ECB402 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 14:54:05 +0000 (UTC) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 09:54:03 -0500 From: Andrew Sullivan To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: [dnsext] Interim meeting Message-ID: <20100216145403.GI36083@shinkuro.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: Dear colleagues, I have so far been unable to get into the webex meeting space. I'll try again in a few minutees, closer to the official start time. We can also use the IETF Jabber room, as ever, during this meeting. I'll keep the list posted with the status of the meeting & whether we will in fact begin on time. Best regards, Andrew -- Andrew Sullivan ajs@shinkuro.com Shinkuro, Inc. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Feb 16 07:11:37 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 836543A7D1E; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 07:11:37 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.542 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.542 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.942, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_INFO=1.448, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0o9zJf5f5+gJ; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 07:11:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B89313A7D1F; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 07:11:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NhP2Z-000CDh-UB for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 15:08:43 +0000 Received: from [208.86.224.201] (helo=mail.yitter.info) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:CAMELLIA256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NhP2W-000CDE-UM for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 15:08:41 +0000 Received: from crankycanuck.ca (69-196-144-230.dsl.teksavvy.com [69.196.144.230]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.yitter.info (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id B46FA1ECB402 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 15:08:39 +0000 (UTC) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 10:08:38 -0500 From: Andrew Sullivan To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: [dnsext] Interim meeting Message-ID: <20100216150837.GJ36083@shinkuro.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: The meeting site is open as of five minutes to the hour. We (Chairs) cannot join as host, however. A -- Andrew Sullivan ajs@shinkuro.com Shinkuro, Inc. From dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Tue Feb 16 07:42:25 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3EF853A7D35 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 07:42:25 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -42.619 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-42.619 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_DYNAMIC_HCC=4.295, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2=4.395, HELO_EQ_DYNAMIC=1.144, HELO_EQ_MODEMCABLE=0.768, HELO_EQ_TW=1.335, HOST_EQ_MODEMCABLE=1.368, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_16=1.526, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_02=0.383, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_2=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_FROM_DRUGS=1.666, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.931, URIBL_SBL=20, URI_HEX=0.368, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id k5dM9W1m1Kxt for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 07:42:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from 219-71-178-209.cable.dynamic.giga.net.tw (219-71-178-209.cable.dynamic.giga.net.tw [219.71.178.209]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E02493A7D30 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 07:42:22 -0800 (PST) From: "Pfizer (tm) VIAGRA (c)" To: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: Personal dnsext-archive 81% Off MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20100216154222.E02493A7D30@core3.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 07:42:22 -0800 (PST) User dnsext-archive Newsletter
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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Feb 16 07:42:31 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A88B23A7D36; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 07:42:31 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.81 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.81 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_05=-1.11, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_UK=1.749, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SZE+iQVH4xr4; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 07:42:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA1733A7D2F; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 07:42:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NhPWs-000GYa-Gf for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 15:40:02 +0000 Received: from [131.111.8.136] (helo=ppsw-6.csi.cam.ac.uk) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NhPWq-000GXr-3P for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 15:40:00 +0000 X-Cam-AntiVirus: no malware found X-Cam-SpamDetails: not scanned X-Cam-ScannerInfo: http://www.cam.ac.uk/cs/email/scanner/ Received: from hermes-2.csi.cam.ac.uk ([131.111.8.54]:60480) by ppsw-6.csi.cam.ac.uk (smtp.hermes.cam.ac.uk [131.111.8.156]:25) with esmtpa (EXTERNAL:cet1) id 1NhPWp-0003dy-Jf (Exim 4.70) (return-path ); Tue, 16 Feb 2010 15:39:59 +0000 Received: from prayer by hermes-2.csi.cam.ac.uk (hermes.cam.ac.uk) with local (PRAYER:cet1) id 1NhPWp-0002tl-2X (Exim 4.67) (return-path ); Tue, 16 Feb 2010 15:39:59 +0000 Received: from [131.111.11.47] by webmail.hermes.cam.ac.uk with HTTP (Prayer-1.3.2); 16 Feb 2010 15:39:58 +0000 Date: 16 Feb 2010 15:39:58 +0000 From: Chris Thompson To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Cc: YAO Jiankang Reply-To: cet1@cam.ac.uk Subject: Re: [dnsext] Position statement of Jiankang Yao on DNS name equivalence Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: <465814831.24565@cnnic.cn> <466248785.15660@cnnic.cn> <4B7AA5EC.4040508@ogud.com> X-Mailer: Prayer v1.3.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On Feb 16 2010, YAO Jiankang wrote: >ICANN has evaulated and discussed dname many years. so that there is still >no conclusion about dname. > >one reason I think might be that the current RFC2672 specify the synthesized >CNAME with TTL zero, which will cause many problems to root servers. Regardless of whether it would really cause "many problems", this is fixed in draft-ietf-dnsext-rfc2672bis-dname, which would have been an RFC by now if it hadn't been for ... well, enough of that. But I see that ISC have got bored with waiting for it, and implement TTL(synthesized CNAME) = TTL(DNAME) in BIND 9.6.2 and 9.7.0. -- Chris Thompson University of Cambridge Computing Service, Email: cet1@ucs.cam.ac.uk New Museums Site, Cambridge CB2 3QH, Phone: +44 1223 334715 United Kingdom. From dnsext-archive@ietf.org Tue Feb 16 07:42:32 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BFCC3A7D34 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 07:42:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -42.619 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-42.619 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_DYNAMIC_HCC=4.295, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2=4.395, HELO_EQ_DYNAMIC=1.144, HELO_EQ_MODEMCABLE=0.768, HELO_EQ_TW=1.335, HOST_EQ_MODEMCABLE=1.368, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_16=1.526, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_02=0.383, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_2=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_FROM_DRUGS=1.666, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.931, URIBL_SBL=20, URI_HEX=0.368, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HSe7XHItJQ72 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 07:42:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from 219-71-178-209.cable.dynamic.giga.net.tw (219-71-178-209.cable.dynamic.giga.net.tw [219.71.178.209]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66E193A7D30 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 07:42:27 -0800 (PST) From: "Pfizer (tm) VIAGRA (c)" To: dnsext-archive@ietf.org Subject: Personal dnsext-archive 77% Off MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20100216154227.66E193A7D30@core3.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 07:42:27 -0800 (PST) User dnsext-archive Newsletter
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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Feb 16 08:15:40 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0EACC28C1FB; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 08:15:40 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.799 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.799 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.200, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aWduLLxGjiNz; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 08:15:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9826328C1F4; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 08:15:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NhQ1t-000KqO-PG for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 16:12:05 +0000 Received: from [2001:4f8:3:bb:230:48ff:fe5a:2f38] (helo=nsa.vix.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:CAMELLIA256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NhQ1q-000Kpz-Mf for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 16:12:02 +0000 Received: from nsa.vix.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nsa.vix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6229AA9CA8 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 16:12:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vixie@nsa.vix.com) From: Paul Vixie To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] Position statement of Jiankang Yao on DNS name equivalence In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 16 Feb 2010 14:49:45 GMT." <781052E5-88EE-42BA-A116-68D82C0D7DFD@rfc1035.com> References: <465814831.24565@cnnic.cn> <466248785.15660@cnnic.cn> <4B7AA5EC.4040508@ogud.com> <466330771.08201@cnnic.cn> <781052E5-88EE-42BA-A116-68D82C0D7DFD@rfc1035.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.1; nil; GNU Emacs 22.2.1 Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 16:12:02 +0000 Message-ID: <38656.1266336722@nsa.vix.com> Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: > From: Jim Reid > Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 14:49:45 +0000 > > On 16 Feb 2010, at 14:32, YAO Jiankang wrote: > > > ICANN has evaulated and discussed dname many years. so that there is > > still no conclusion about dname. > > That may be true. But it doesn't matter. ICANN isn't in a position to > make technical decisions about the DNS protocol or define standards. > That's the job of this WG and our colleagues in dnsop. -1. see below. > > other reason might be that since DNAME only maps the descendants, not > > itself. so many registry representives do not prefer them. some like > > them, some dislike theme. > > This may well be true too. However there should be strong technical or > engineering reasons to support non-trivial changes to the DNS > protocol. IMO these need to be on firmer grounds than some people don't > like certain protocol features or the operational impact of using them. also -1. we are engineers here, and these folks are our customers. just as we got it wrong with NSEC by making something technically correct which our customers "didn't like" thus leading to another several-years delay in dnssec deployment while we did NSEC3, so it is that if ICANN or the TLD folk "don't like" DNAME for various reasons, then it's the wrong solution, no matter whether *we* consider it adequate to *their* purpose. we can ask for better documentation as to their dislikes. we can try to workshop with them to make sure that they really don't like it and that their dislike isn't a matter of misunderstanding or mistakes in testing. but if they really and truly "do not like" our proposed solution, then we have to carve it in granite and work by the light of it. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Feb 16 08:29:34 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D33683A73F8; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 08:29:34 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.766 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.766 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.167, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id usX2cx8gBDtN; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 08:29:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 185B93A71A6; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 08:29:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NhQG7-000Mmy-M1 for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 16:26:47 +0000 Received: from [2001:4f8:3:bb:230:48ff:fe5a:2f38] (helo=nsa.vix.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:CAMELLIA256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NhQG4-000MmQ-DE for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 16:26:44 +0000 Received: from nsa.vix.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nsa.vix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2641DA9C92 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 16:26:44 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vixie@nsa.vix.com) From: Paul Vixie To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] Position statement of Jiankang Yao on DNS name equivalence In-Reply-To: Your message of "16 Feb 2010 15:39:58 GMT." References: <465814831.24565@cnnic.cn> <466248785.15660@cnnic.cn> <4B7AA5EC.4040508@ogud.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.1; nil; GNU Emacs 22.2.1 Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 16:26:44 +0000 Message-ID: <39476.1266337604@nsa.vix.com> Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: > Date: 16 Feb 2010 15:39:58 +0000 > From: Chris Thompson > > ... But I see that ISC have got bored with waiting for it, and implement > TTL(synthesized CNAME) = TTL(DNAME) in BIND 9.6.2 and 9.7.0. and we're going to have egg on our face if we guessed wrong about the likely standardization outcome. but it looked so close, for so long... From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Feb 16 08:38:47 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7AB0828C179; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 08:38:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, NO_RELAYS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id g-criFKEeh0H; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 08:38:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6C8128C168; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 08:38:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NhQN7-000NeQ-F6 for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 16:34:01 +0000 Received: from [2001:4f8:3:bb::5] (helo=farside.isc.org) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NhQN3-000Ncb-9U for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 16:33:57 +0000 Received: by farside.isc.org (Postfix, from userid 10265) id D3854E60AB; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 16:33:56 +0000 (UTC) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 16:33:56 +0000 From: Suzanne Woolf To: Paul Vixie Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] Position statement of Jiankang Yao on DNS name equivalence Message-ID: <20100216163356.GB28365@farside.isc.org> References: <465814831.24565@cnnic.cn> <466248785.15660@cnnic.cn> <4B7AA5EC.4040508@ogud.com> <466330771.08201@cnnic.cn> <781052E5-88EE-42BA-A116-68D82C0D7DFD@rfc1035.com> <38656.1266336722@nsa.vix.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <38656.1266336722@nsa.vix.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.3i Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On Tue, Feb 16, 2010 at 04:12:02PM +0000, Paul Vixie wrote: > > we are engineers here, and these folks are our customers. +1. > we can ask for better documentation as to their dislikes. we can try to > workshop with them to make sure that they really don't like it and that > their dislike isn't a matter of misunderstanding or mistakes in testing. > but if they really and truly "do not like" our proposed solution, then we > have to carve it in granite and work by the light of it. ....Which is why the requirements work of "What *do* you need?" is so important. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Feb 16 08:46:13 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11F723A73F8; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 08:46:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.964 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.964 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-2.469, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4cMqMso87m06; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 08:46:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FB8328C162; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 08:46:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NhQWa-000PAG-3Z for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 16:43:48 +0000 Received: from [195.54.233.65] (helo=hutch.rfc1035.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NhQWW-000P9T-N2 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 16:43:44 +0000 Received: from gromit.rfc1035.com (gromit.rfc1035.com [195.54.233.69]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: jim) by hutch.rfc1035.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 34EC2154208B; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 16:43:41 +0000 (GMT) Cc: Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk Message-Id: <3162788D-3BC8-488B-9FA2-3C2202E66294@rfc1035.com> From: Jim Reid To: namedroppers In-Reply-To: <4B79D64C.1050702@ogud.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v936) Subject: Re: [dnsext] Draft: WGLC draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-tcp-requirements Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 16:43:41 +0000 References: <4B79D64C.1050702@ogud.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.936) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: Some editorial nits: "Existing" can be removed from "Existing deployments". Can there be a deployment of something that doesn't exist? I think Mark's tweaks don't scan well. So how about: Most DNS [RFC1035] transactions take place over UDP [RFC0792]. TCP [RFC0793] is used for zone transfers and for other DNS packets which exceed the 512 byte UDP message size limit imposed in RFC1035. I'd change "some implementations lack the software logic necessary...." to some implementations are unable to reassemble fragmented datagrams". The comma at "has arrived, and the only" is superflous and incorrect. Long responses doesn't seem right: large responses? "Authoritative resolver implementations MUST support TCP so that they may serve any long responses that they are configured to serve" seems clumsy and ambiguous: It suggests TCP might be optional if there are no big responses to serve. What's an authoritative resolver anyway? It may be better to say: "Authoritative servers MUST support TCP so that they can serve responses in cases where EDNS is not available and the reply would exceed the 512 byte UDP limit in RFC1035. Is it really necessary to put denial of service in quotes? A comma is needed after "overload" in "To mitigate the risk of unintentional server overload DNS..." "Whilst" seems rather quaint and may confuse non-native speakers. [Yeah verily thy noble lord...] How about "Although there is..."? From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Feb 16 09:04:05 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1483228C188; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 09:04:05 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.827 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.827 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-2.332, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yB4we6d+pQfF; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 09:04:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99B3F28C19B; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 09:04:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NhQnE-0002Hj-3f for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 17:01:00 +0000 Received: from [195.54.233.65] (helo=hutch.rfc1035.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NhQn9-0002FO-KJ for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 17:00:55 +0000 Received: from gromit.rfc1035.com (gromit.rfc1035.com [195.54.233.69]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: jim) by hutch.rfc1035.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 7C0A9154208B; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 17:00:53 +0000 (GMT) Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Message-Id: From: Jim Reid To: Paul Vixie In-Reply-To: <38656.1266336722@nsa.vix.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v936) Subject: Re: [dnsext] Position statement of Jiankang Yao on DNS name equivalence Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 17:00:53 +0000 References: <465814831.24565@cnnic.cn> <466248785.15660@cnnic.cn> <4B7AA5EC.4040508@ogud.com> <466330771.08201@cnnic.cn> <781052E5-88EE-42BA-A116-68D82C0D7DFD@rfc1035.com> <38656.1266336722@nsa.vix.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.936) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On 16 Feb 2010, at 16:12, Paul Vixie wrote: > if ICANN or the TLD folk "don't like" DNAME for various reasons, > then it's the wrong solution, no matter whether *we* consider it > adequate to *their* purpose. I agree Paul. But I wasn't saying what you seemed to think I said. And anyway this WG can't do stuff in an ivory-towered vacuum. [Apologies for the mixed metaphors.] If some folk don't like DNAME/, I hope that by itself shouldn't trigger wholesale changes to the protocol. There has to be something more than "I don't like X" or "X is broken" to start a new work item. As Suzanne just pointed out that something more could be asking for an explanation of why they don't like X or clarification of their actual requirements. That was what I was hinting at in my earlier mail even though it wasn't explicit as it should have been. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Feb 16 10:02:37 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FB1128C18E; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 10:02:37 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QOShXkmMCGk6; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 10:02:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 897BB28C17F; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 10:02:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NhRfz-000BNw-MP for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 17:57:35 +0000 Received: from [2001:478:6:0:230:48ff:fe11:220a] (helo=vacation.karoshi.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NhRfq-000B5C-3s for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 17:57:33 +0000 Received: from karoshi.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by vacation.karoshi.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o1GHpRcY015032; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 17:51:27 GMT Received: (from bmanning@localhost) by karoshi.com (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id o1GHpNgf015031; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 17:51:23 GMT Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 17:51:23 +0000 From: bmanning@vacation.karoshi.com To: Jim Reid Cc: Paul Vixie , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] Position statement of Jiankang Yao on DNS name equivalence Message-ID: <20100216175123.GA14632@vacation.karoshi.com.> References: <465814831.24565@cnnic.cn> <466248785.15660@cnnic.cn> <4B7AA5EC.4040508@ogud.com> <466330771.08201@cnnic.cn> <781052E5-88EE-42BA-A116-68D82C0D7DFD@rfc1035.com> <38656.1266336722@nsa.vix.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On Tue, Feb 16, 2010 at 05:00:53PM +0000, Jim Reid wrote: > On 16 Feb 2010, at 16:12, Paul Vixie wrote: > > >if ICANN or the TLD folk "don't like" DNAME for various reasons, > >then it's the wrong solution, no matter whether *we* consider it > >adequate to *their* purpose. > > I agree Paul. > > But I wasn't saying what you seemed to think I said. And anyway this > WG can't do stuff in an ivory-towered vacuum. [Apologies for the mixed > metaphors.] If some folk don't like DNAME/ jour-here>, I hope that by itself shouldn't trigger wholesale changes > to the protocol. There has to be something more than "I don't like X" > or "X is broken" to start a new work item. As Suzanne just pointed out > that something more could be asking for an explanation of why they > don't like X or clarification of their actual requirements. That was > what I was hinting at in my earlier mail even though it wasn't > explicit as it should have been. > thanks for the chuckle... is there any good reason why "they" should come to "us" to solve any of their problems? its open source and they can solve their own problems - there is no reason they couldn't or shouldn't start from the premise, "I don't like X" or "X looks broken to me" and make it work the way they want. far too often folks bring an idea forward only to be derided and belittled because their problems were not perceived to be interesting or important... not big enough. but every now and then, a grass roots idea gets traction. --bill From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Feb 16 10:21:29 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54DD13A7D65; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 10:21:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.437 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.437 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_NET=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XvX8XS+sHX4J; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 10:21:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC8EB3A7D94; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 10:21:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NhS01-000Efk-Jw for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 18:18:17 +0000 Received: from [65.99.1.130] (helo=abenaki.wabanaki.net) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NhRzz-000EfL-2U for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 18:18:15 +0000 Received: from limpet.local (cpe-67-244-32-202.twcny.res.rr.com [67.244.32.202]) by abenaki.wabanaki.net (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o1GI3jlF036362; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 13:03:45 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from ebw@abenaki.wabanaki.net) Message-ID: <4B7AE152.3040507@abenaki.wabanaki.net> Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 13:17:54 -0500 From: Eric Brunner-Williams User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10.5; en-US; rv:1.9.1.7) Gecko/20100111 Thunderbird/3.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Paul Vixie CC: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] Position statement of Jiankang Yao on DNS name equivalence References: <465814831.24565@cnnic.cn> <466248785.15660@cnnic.cn> <4B7AA5EC.4040508@ogud.com> <466330771.08201@cnnic.cn> <781052E5-88EE-42BA-A116-68D82C0D7DFD@rfc1035.com> <38656.1266336722@nsa.vix.com> In-Reply-To: <38656.1266336722@nsa.vix.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On 2/16/10 11:12 AM, Paul Vixie wrote: ... > we are engineers here, and these folks are our customers. just as we got > it wrong with NSEC by making something technically correct which our > customers "didn't like" thus leading to another several-years delay in > dnssec deployment while we did NSEC3, so it is that if ICANN or the TLD > folk "don't like" DNAME for various reasons, then it's the wrong solution, > no matter whether *we* consider it adequate to *their* purpose. I looked at this a couple of times and went back and forth on whether or not to ... differ. Ok. Here it is. As usual when I write I misuse pronouns, so the "you" that follows is symbolic, not an actual person. In their world view (the World According to Ira "Garp" Magaziner), their requirements arise from a Multi-Stakehlder, Bottoms-Up Process (MSBUP). When you're through laughing, recall that until 2003, the IETF was formally a "stakeholder", as one of several bodies constituting the "Protocol Supporting Organization". The import of that is, in _their world view_ the "us/them" dicotomy doesn't exist, *we* are part of *them* (queue the great movie about ants in the Mohave and LA River storm drains), and it doesn't matter that the PSO was defunted in '03, we are still somewhere in the dizzy constellation of MSBUP. Restated, if you think non-ASCII labels is a real requirement, but the Elbonian (Lower) "IDN Requirements for Elbonian" mistaken, then you may solve for the correct requirement, not the incorrect requirement. If you can't think of an Elbonian example, try the Arabic Script IDN WG dicta that all labels in Arabic Script be (not "identifiers") proper words in the Arabic language. I could go on, but that's a nice example of a requirement which is ... off by more than one. Next, looking to *them* as the source of dissatisfaction with existing, or the need for additional mechanism(s), for the problem at hand, variants, isn't really correct. The ugly truth is that the variants arise from *us*, from the IDN Working Groups of 2000-2003 and 2008-2010, IDNA and IDNAbis, which in turn adopted a character repertoire from a body which began assembling a glyph catalog which over time acquired some character properties, and destroyed others through "unifications", because we couldn't, or wouldn't, look at the many character set standards, most pre-existing, and find a way of character sets which did not have to give rise to "variants". So, as comforting as it is to view the requirements as absurd and arising elsewhere, some of the absurdity arises rather closer at home. > we can ask for better documentation as to their dislikes. we can try to > workshop with them to make sure that they really don't like it and that > their dislike isn't a matter of misunderstanding or mistakes in testing. > but if they really and truly "do not like" our proposed solution, then we > have to carve it in granite and work by the light of it. The tree equivalence idea is not chrooted in the TLDs, it is far more general. The variant problem is simply the equivalency of leaves of the same parent node, again, only casually confined to the TLDs. I spend more time on ICANN than some and I think it is useful to retain some perspective about the actual functioning of the MSBUP. ICANN is free to burn real money getting bespoke specification and development work done for them. In fact, they plan to do so in an operational problem domain proximal to this one. If "they" end up barking for the moon, unrestrained by the hold-overs from the PSO exercising Supporting Organization caution, the few members of the Board I at least associate with specific technical clue, there is no IETF necessity to diligently assemble heaps of canines. I favor both the CLONE and the BNAME proposals, a lot, I just want to point out that we act autonomously, unemployed by ICANN, the ccTLD operators, or the current winners of the MSBUP lottery. 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------=_NextPart_000_0007_01CAAF42.A3225900-- From dnsop-bounces@ietf.org Tue Feb 16 11:58:40 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dnsext-archive@ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CA7C28C180 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 11:58:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: The results of your email commands From: dnsop-bounces@ietf.org To: dnsext-archive@ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0779255372==" Message-ID: Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 11:58:40 -0800 Precedence: bulk X-BeenThere: dnsop@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 List-Id: IETF DNSOP WG mailing list X-List-Administrivia: yes Sender: dnsop-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: dnsop-bounces@ietf.org --===============0779255372== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The results of your email command are provided below. Attached is your original message. - Results: Ignoring non-text/plain MIME parts - Done. --===============0779255372== Content-Type: message/rfc822 MIME-Version: 1.0 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dnsop-request@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: dnsop-request@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B43B628C180; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 11:58:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -72.755 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-72.755 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2=4.395, HELO_EQ_BR=0.955, HELO_EQ_DYNAMIC=1.144, HOST_EQ_BR=1.295, HTML_FONT_FACE_BAD=0.884, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, PLING_QUERY=1.39, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.931, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id e42p5Q4HCCsL; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 11:58:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from 189-015-205-110.xd-dynamic.ctbcnetsuper.com.br (189-015-234-226.xd-dynamic.ctbcnetsuper.com.br [189.15.234.226]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0E5328C137; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 11:58:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from 189.15.234.226 by mx.insearch-inc.com; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 17:00:07 -0300 Message-ID: <000d01caaf42$a3225900$6400a8c0@nonsmokersnm2> From: dnsext-archive@ietf.org To: Subject: Why we stopped our communication? I expected more, Olga! Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 17:00:07 -0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0007_01CAAF42.A3225900" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.3790.2663 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE 6.00.3790.2663 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01CAAF42.A3225900 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I can do for you is - what can not no girl! Click Here ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01CAAF42.A3225900 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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------=_NextPart_000_0007_01CAAF42.A3225900-- --===============0779255372==-- From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Feb 16 12:40:45 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B769A3A7DB8; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 12:40:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.376 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.376 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.091, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_INFO=1.448, RDNS_NONE=0.1, SARE_MILLIONSOF=0.315] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lTHIZpYwYrHu; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 12:40:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 156683A7BF1; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 12:40:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NhU9s-0005UJ-E7 for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 20:36:36 +0000 Received: from [208.86.224.201] (helo=mail.yitter.info) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:CAMELLIA256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NhU9n-0005TH-VI for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 20:36:32 +0000 Received: from crankycanuck.ca (69-196-144-230.dsl.teksavvy.com [69.196.144.230]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.yitter.info (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 7EF041ECBBD7 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 20:36:29 +0000 (UTC) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 15:36:27 -0500 From: Andrew Sullivan To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: [dnsext] Draft minutes from interim meeting today Message-ID: <20100216203626.GN36083@shinkuro.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="i9LlY+UWpKt15+FH" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: --i9LlY+UWpKt15+FH Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Dear colleagues, Attached are draft minutes and decisions from today's meeting. I'd appreciate it if attendees could review them. If I get no corrections by Friday (2010-02-19), I assume that I can consider them final and submit them to the secretariat. Thanks to participants for a productive meeting. Best regards, Andrew -- Andrew Sullivan ajs@shinkuro.com Shinkuro, Inc. --i9LlY+UWpKt15+FH Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="dnsext-interim-minutes-2010-02-16-b.txt" Minutes of the interim virtual meeting of the IETF DNS Extensions Working Group 2010-02-16 15:00 UTC via teleconference and Webex session. Approximately 35 attendees. The meeting was chaired by WG co-chair Andrew Sullivan. The chair opened the meeting, apologised for some unexpected technical limitations. The chair reminded everyone that the meeting is an IETF activity, covered by the Note Well statement and the relevant IPR rules, and that participants should "sign the blue sheets" by sending email to the chair noting their participation. The chair took names from the Webex session, but may not have access to the email addresses associated. The chair outlined the goals of the meeting, and opened the floor for discussion. Remarks in favour of there being a problem to solve came from Vaggelis Segredakis, Paul Hoffman, and Sotiris Panaretou. The chair asked participants whether anyone thought there was not a problem to solve. The chair heard nobody argue for this. The chair asked about acceptable limitations. Does anyone think that what is really needed is a replacement of the DNS protocols? There were no responses. The chair next asked whether it is acceptable that zone administrators need to understand whether they are in a "canonical chain" or not. There was some discussion around this matter, with the initial observation that it was how things had to work today anyway. Further discussion illuminated that the problem persists down the chain, because "variant" children down the tree might not realise that they are working in a variant space, and that there may be problems as a result. Jim Reid worried that this could lead to a "hall of mirrors" and that the best answers therefore all lie in provisioning rather than DNS responses. This led naturally to the presentation of the zone clone idea from Paul Vixie. The presentation offered a number of questions of detail that would need to be settled in order to standardize the zone clone proposal. Paul Vixie included some constraints on solutions in his presentation: -Must not require stubs or recursives to be upgraded, since there are millions of these and the tail is long - Must be an Internet Standard, not a proprietary or adhoc extension, to facilitate multivendor operation - Must not place any burden on registry, which may be regulated (so, autoinsertion into root zone, no!) - Authority server operators, protocol implementors, and registrars can accept burdens, since they have incentives, and are few in number After discussion, the chair asked for a sense of the WG. There was considerable support heard for the constraints, and no opposition. These therefore appear to be useful constraints on the WG's plans. The chair summarized what he had heard from the WG during the meeting. It appears that the WG has eliminated "do nothing", "provisioning only", "CNAME-only" or "DNAME-only" approaches. There was little discussion of the BNAME proposal. There was no discussion of altering DNAME to allow inclusion of CNAME in the answer. There was no discussion of other approaches. So, from the WG's Wiki outline, items 1, 2, 4, 5, and 6 all seem to be ruled out. Item 3 appears to be an option. Items 7-9 are inconsistent with Paul Vixie's set of conditions. The WG seemed to indicate that those conditions were the right ones, but everyone may not have realised this consequence, so the WG chairs will treat this entailment as unsettled for the time being. The chair took names of people who are willing to work on the problem. There was enough indication of support to suggest that the WG might want to tackle the problem. The next steps are to get solid drafts to evaluate, to ensure the problem statement is correctly narrowed in time for Anaheim, and to advertise part of the Anaheim meeting widely to attract as many interested parties as possible, in order to check assumptions before the WG progresses too far on this work item. If that meeting is successful and clear in its outcome, then this item will be adopted as a WG work item with clear milestones. --i9LlY+UWpKt15+FH-- From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Feb 16 13:43:14 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C31E28C0CE; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 13:43:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, NO_RELAYS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id srNOEArXEm90; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 13:43:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 88B7E3A7DCE; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 13:43:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NhV8y-000FRS-3m for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 21:39:44 +0000 Received: from [2001:4f8:3:bb::5] (helo=farside.isc.org) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NhV8s-000FQs-Fw for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 21:39:38 +0000 Received: by farside.isc.org (Postfix, from userid 10265) id EF26DE60A9; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 21:39:37 +0000 (UTC) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 21:39:37 +0000 From: Suzanne Woolf To: bmanning@vacation.karoshi.com Cc: Jim Reid , Paul Vixie , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] Position statement of Jiankang Yao on DNS name equivalence Message-ID: <20100216213937.GB36346@farside.isc.org> References: <465814831.24565@cnnic.cn> <466248785.15660@cnnic.cn> <4B7AA5EC.4040508@ogud.com> <466330771.08201@cnnic.cn> <781052E5-88EE-42BA-A116-68D82C0D7DFD@rfc1035.com> <38656.1266336722@nsa.vix.com> <20100216175123.GA14632@vacation.karoshi.com.> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20100216175123.GA14632@vacation.karoshi.com.> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.3i Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On Tue, Feb 16, 2010 at 05:51:23PM +0000, bmanning@vacation.karoshi.com wrote: > thanks for the chuckle... is there any good reason why > "they" should come to "us" to solve any of their problems? As EBW just pointed out, who's "us" and who's "them" is....multiply defined. ("Aliased," even.) I'm usurping chairs' prerogative (which they're welcome to usurp in turn) and calling this a rathole. There are people with requirements for the technology, there are people who are capable of making the technology do things (no XORs here, either), and there are a set of tools for mediating between them, including open source development, proprietary development, and standards processes. Supposedly we are here to engage in the latter.... 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------=_NextPart_000_0007_01CAAF5A.12F00E00-- From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Feb 16 15:16:15 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0BAA83A7E09; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 15:16:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.547 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.547 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.052, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cr3ITRcA9kBy; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 15:16:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A00C63A7DE6; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 15:16:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NhWZw-000PLy-WC for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 23:11:41 +0000 Received: from [17.254.13.23] (helo=mail-out4.apple.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NhWZt-000PLd-DS for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 23:11:37 +0000 Received: from relay13.apple.com (relay13.apple.com [17.128.113.29]) by mail-out4.apple.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9AFA68C72C0D for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 15:11:36 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: 1180711d-b7b18ae000001001-14-4b7b2628185e Received: from [17.202.46.71] (chesh1.apple.com [17.202.46.71]) by relay13.apple.com (Apple SCV relay) with SMTP id 77.20.04097.8262B7B4; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 15:11:36 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753.1) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <8B8045AE-F838-4599-B46E-80B940195BA2@apple.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed To: IETF DNSEXT WG From: Stuart Cheshire Subject: [dnsext] Collective name for Answer, Authority, and Additional Sections? Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 15:11:22 -0800 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.753.1) X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAQAAAZE= Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: The Answer, Authority, and Additional Sections in a DNS packet all hold resource records in the same format, which makes it convenient to refer to them collectively some times, and it's starting to feel cumbersome to keep writing the phrase, "Answer, Authority, and Additional Sections," over and over. Is there any established collective name for these three sections? I'm leaning towards using the term "Resource Record Sections" (as opposed to the one other section, the "Question Section", which has a different format), but if there's already a term established, I'd prefer to use that instead of inventing my own. Any suggestions? Stuart Cheshire * Wizard Without Portfolio, Apple Inc. * Internet Architecture Board * www.stuartcheshire.org From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Feb 16 15:29:01 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 548A628C0F3; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 15:29:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.229 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.229 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.356, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mQlNoSGMRnms; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 15:29:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9115D3A7E0D; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 15:29:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NhWoE-0001AK-4Q for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 23:26:26 +0000 Received: from [209.85.216.203] (helo=mail-px0-f203.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NhWoB-00019w-SA for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 23:26:23 +0000 Received: by pxi41 with SMTP id 41so643619pxi.8 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 15:26:23 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.114.252.39 with SMTP id z39mr4795981wah.93.1266362783118; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 15:26:23 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <8B8045AE-F838-4599-B46E-80B940195BA2@apple.com> References: <8B8045AE-F838-4599-B46E-80B940195BA2@apple.com> Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 15:26:23 -0800 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [dnsext] Collective name for Answer, Authority, and Additional Sections? From: Matthew Dempsky To: Stuart Cheshire Cc: IETF DNSEXT WG Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On Tue, Feb 16, 2010 at 3:11 PM, Stuart Cheshire wrote: > I'm leaning towards using the term "Resource Record Sections" (as opposed to > the one other section, the "Question Section", which has a different > format), but if there's already a term established, I'd prefer to use that > instead of inventing my own. I like "Resource Record Sections," and I'm pretty sure I've used the same term myself. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Feb 16 15:30:43 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBDF13A7E08; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 15:30:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.742 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.742 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.143, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zdwbSCBguC6A; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 15:30:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 750F03A7B6B; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 15:30:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NhWqS-0001QD-30 for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 23:28:44 +0000 Received: from [2001:4f8:3:bb:230:48ff:fe5a:2f38] (helo=nsa.vix.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:CAMELLIA256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NhWqO-0001PY-Fg for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 23:28:40 +0000 Received: from nsa.vix.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nsa.vix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2EFB5A9D30; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 23:28:40 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vixie@nsa.vix.com) From: Paul Vixie To: Stuart Cheshire cc: IETF DNSEXT WG Subject: Re: [dnsext] Collective name for Answer, Authority, and Additional Sections? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 16 Feb 2010 15:11:22 PST." <8B8045AE-F838-4599-B46E-80B940195BA2@apple.com> References: <8B8045AE-F838-4599-B46E-80B940195BA2@apple.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.1; nil; GNU Emacs 22.2.1 Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 23:28:40 +0000 Message-ID: <56802.1266362920@nsa.vix.com> Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: UPDATE names the sections differently, and uses resource record format to hold things that are not resource records. so if you want to call them collectively "the resource record sections" you should probably say "the query message resource record sections" which begins to be even more unwieldy than "the answer, authority, and additional sections". From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Feb 16 17:30:15 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45CC53A7334; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 17:30:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.556 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.556 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.043, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id o3oOMaYh4cUn; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 17:30:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2826B3A7E39; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 17:30:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NhYfz-000Eg9-Gq for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 01:26:03 +0000 Received: from [2001:4f8:3:bb::5] (helo=farside.isc.org) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NhYfw-000Efj-3D for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 01:26:00 +0000 Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (drugs.dv.isc.org [IPv6:2001:470:1f00:820:214:22ff:fed9:fbdc]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "drugs.dv.isc.org", Issuer "ISC CA" (not verified)) by farside.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24001E606C; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 01:25:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marka@isc.org) Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by drugs.dv.isc.org (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o1H1Pq3s002301; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 12:25:53 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from marka@drugs.dv.isc.org) Message-Id: <201002170125.o1H1Pq3s002301@drugs.dv.isc.org> To: Jim Reid Cc: namedroppers , Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk From: Mark Andrews References: <4B79D64C.1050702@ogud.com> <3162788D-3BC8-488B-9FA2-3C2202E66294@rfc1035.com> Subject: Re: [dnsext] Draft: WGLC draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-tcp-requirements In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 16 Feb 2010 16:43:41 -0000." <3162788D-3BC8-488B-9FA2-3C2202E66294@rfc1035.com> Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 12:25:52 +1100 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: In message <3162788D-3BC8-488B-9FA2-3C2202E66294@rfc1035.com>, Jim Reid writes: > "Authoritative resolver implementations MUST support TCP so that they > may serve any long responses that they are configured to serve" seems > clumsy and ambiguous: It suggests TCP might be optional if there are > no big responses to serve. What's an authoritative resolver anyway? It > may be better to say: > > "Authoritative servers MUST support TCP so that they can serve > responses in cases where EDNS is not available and the reply would > exceed the 512 byte UDP limit in RFC1035. You want TCP to be implemented independently of EDNS support. * Authoritative servers MUST support TCP. While RFC1123 listed TCP support for DNS as a SHOULD it has been treated as a MAY by some vendors and operators leading to lookup failurs when clients fell back to TCP when TC was set or illegal splitting of RRsets in attempts to return data that wouldn't fit without setting TC when only UDP was supported. UDP only configurations are removed in the interest of a more robust DNS service. -- Mark Andrews, ISC 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: marka@isc.org From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Feb 16 17:38:10 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 670A43A7E1B; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 17:38:10 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.094 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.094 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.221, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id M8CH+pLdmJk9; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 17:38:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 930B33A79EF; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 17:38:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NhYq6-000Fko-GR for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 01:36:30 +0000 Received: from [209.85.216.203] (helo=mail-px0-f203.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NhYq3-000FkV-Rb for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 01:36:27 +0000 Received: by pxi41 with SMTP id 41so712016pxi.8 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 17:36:27 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.114.99.17 with SMTP id w17mr4920389wab.66.1266370587475; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 17:36:27 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <4B79D64C.1050702@ogud.com> References: <4B79D64C.1050702@ogud.com> Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 17:36:27 -0800 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [dnsext] Draft: WGLC draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-tcp-requirements From: Matthew Dempsky To: Olafur Gudmundsson Cc: namedroppers Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: Earlier drafts allowed authoritative servers that don't allow AXFR and don't serve responses >512 bytes to disable TCP support, but this seems to have been omitted from the latest draft. I'd like to see this reintroduced. From djsirflyer@ietf.org Tue Feb 16 20:06:20 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2840128C10C for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 20:06:20 -0800 (PST) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char C2 hex): From: Approved VIAGRA\302\256 Store ; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 20:06:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from ppp-124-121-1-136.revip2.asianet.co.th (ppp-124-121-1-136.revip2.asianet.co.th [124.121.1.136]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 82E713A7C1D for ; Tue, 16 Feb 2010 20:06:12 -0800 (PST) From: Approved VIAGRA® Store Subject: Sales Event get 71% off To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20100217040617.82E713A7C1D@core3.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 20:06:12 -0800 (PST)
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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Feb 17 02:28:49 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F10D328C0FA; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 02:28:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.98 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.98 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.682, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_UK=1.749, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tgoJ+0e5xtEh; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 02:28:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DCC23A7CA8; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 02:28:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nhh5C-0001Ms-HR for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 10:24:38 +0000 Received: from [213.248.199.24] (helo=mx4.nominet.org.uk) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nhh58-0001MJ-PT for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 10:24:35 +0000 DomainKey-Signature: s=main.dk.nominet.selector; d=nominet.org.uk; c=nofws; q=dns; h=X-IronPort-AV:Received:In-Reply-To:References:To:Cc: Subject:MIME-Version:X-Mailer:Message-ID:From:Date: X-MIMETrack:Content-Type; b=mgFgporpV+cJBdSpmKmjATa+QXaB9m0F6Yws1eyZr8sTuMoUnhRcfmT/ maiUFLUZpKD5wyJEWs1Z80QAxhy7cC3czxdO/KuEgdbjAYrgjgI4p9egE Jv9Pfe1emUfSOal; DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nominet.org.uk; i=Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk; q=dns/txt; s=main.dkim.nominet.selector; t=1266402274; x=1297938274; h=from:sender:reply-to:subject:date:message-id:to:cc: mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:content-id: content-description:resent-date:resent-from:resent-sender: resent-to:resent-cc:resent-message-id:in-reply-to: references:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe: list-subscribe:list-post:list-owner:list-archive; z=From:=20Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk|Subject:=20Re:=20[dnse xt]=20Draft:=20WGLC=20draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-tcp-requireme nts|Date:=20Wed,=2017=20Feb=202010=2010:24:32=20+0000 |Message-ID:=20|To:=20Matthew=20Dempsky =20|Cc:=20namedroppers=20|MIME-Version:=201.0|In-Reply-To:=20 |References:=20<4B79D64C.1050702@ogud.com>=20; bh=E1t8s0RPZx7osfJjMTLz8H2IgiU/fTiSywPqKhseQsU=; b=bynQZDSsssUjk70XRp9WwTrrHvZUiyph76A4UtfgCXRJhzBTUTxwtyZx +meduKuteO3PL+DqUrRJiovfbWNsYx8KwRrjLsiaOA5hUeBXfzHJv8kdK mxkA9ZDZp3yVDGf; X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.49,489,1262563200"; d="scan'208";a="16387945" Received: from notes1.nominet.org.uk ([213.248.197.128]) by mx4.nominet.org.uk with ESMTP; 17 Feb 2010 10:24:32 +0000 In-Reply-To: References: <4B79D64C.1050702@ogud.com> To: Matthew Dempsky Cc: namedroppers Subject: Re: [dnsext] Draft: WGLC draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-tcp-requirements MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 8.5 December 05, 2008 Message-ID: From: Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 10:24:32 +0000 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on notes1/Nominet(Release 7.0.1FP1 | May 25, 2006) at 17/02/2010 10:24:31 AM, Serialize complete at 17/02/2010 10:24:31 AM Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_alternative 00392D2C802576CD_=" Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: This is a multipart message in MIME format. --=_alternative 00392D2C802576CD_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > Earlier drafts allowed authoritative servers that don't allow AXFR and > don't serve responses >512 bytes to disable TCP support, but this > seems to have been omitted from the latest draft. I'd like to see > this reintroduced. Matthew, the previous text to which you refer was: "On a case by case basis, authoritative DNS server operators MAY elect to disable DNS transport over TCP if all of the following conditions are satisfied: o the server is authoritative only o the server does not support AXFR o all requests and responses are guaranteed to be <= 512 bytes". This was describing an _operational_ case in which TCP support is not required, and the group consensus was that the draft should focus on implementation rather than operations. Hence the new version mandates TCP support for _implementations_, with the caveat (at the end of the introduction) that operators may disable it, albeit with side effects. kind regards, Ray -- Ray Bellis, MA(Oxon) MIET Senior Researcher in Advanced Projects, Nominet e: ray@nominet.org.uk, t: +44 1865 332211 --=_alternative 00392D2C802576CD_= Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
> Earlier drafts allowed authoritative servers that don't allow AXFR and
> don't serve responses >512 bytes to disable TCP support, but this
> seems to have been omitted from the latest draft.  I'd like to see
> this reintroduced.
Matthew, the previous text to which you refer was:

"On a case by case basis, authoritative DNS server operators MAY elect
 to disable DNS transport over TCP if all of the following conditions
 are satisfied:

 o  the server is authoritative only
 o  the server does not support AXFR
 o  all requests and responses are guaranteed to be <= 512 bytes".

This was describing an _operational_ case in which TCP support is not required, and the group consensus was that the draft should focus on implementation rather than operations.

Hence the new version mandates TCP support for _implementations_, with the caveat (at the end of the introduction) that operators may disable it, albeit with side effects.

kind regards,

Ray

--
Ray Bellis, MA(Oxon) MIET
Senior Researcher in Advanced Projects, Nominet
e: ray@nominet.org.uk, t: +44 1865 332211
 --=_alternative 00392D2C802576CD_=-- From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Feb 17 02:56:01 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45DE53A7CA0; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 02:56:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.923 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.923 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.625, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_UK=1.749, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0bcsDkBDqt9w; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 02:55:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74C973A7C06; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 02:55:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NhhXY-0005Pe-Mq for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 10:53:56 +0000 Received: from [213.248.199.24] (helo=mx4.nominet.org.uk) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NhhXT-0005NF-By for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 10:53:51 +0000 DomainKey-Signature: s=main.dk.nominet.selector; d=nominet.org.uk; c=nofws; q=dns; h=X-IronPort-AV:Received:In-Reply-To:References:To:Cc: Subject:MIME-Version:X-Mailer:Message-ID:From:Date: X-MIMETrack:Content-Type; b=YOXcJutb4VMmiQ/AVHZGeGdpGf3fNCcpnwqWfOo8Hb4Q4GJ8sDxkwvxC FuFItP8kQfVtBUhELsl874YlfZhT8HdW6+D1YNUKGImBRATbw4MTh9Uzn px2VgO9mR7QCRQI; DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nominet.org.uk; i=Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk; q=dns/txt; s=main.dkim.nominet.selector; t=1266404031; x=1297940031; h=from:sender:reply-to:subject:date:message-id:to:cc: mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:content-id: content-description:resent-date:resent-from:resent-sender: resent-to:resent-cc:resent-message-id:in-reply-to: references:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe: list-subscribe:list-post:list-owner:list-archive; z=From:=20Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk|Subject:=20Re:=20[dnse xt]=20Draft:=20WGLC=20draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-tcp-requireme nts|Date:=20Wed,=2017=20Feb=202010=2010:53:47=20+0000 |Message-ID:=20|To:=20Jim=20Reid=20|Cc:=20namedroppers=20|MIME-Version:=201.0|In-Reply-To:=20<3162788D-3BC8-48 8B-9FA2-3C2202E66294@rfc1035.com>|References:=20<4B79D64C .1050702@ogud.com>=20<3162788D-3BC8-488B-9FA2-3C2202E6629 4@rfc1035.com>; bh=1SB4DbmxayDYaYAwsCl/MQrus6t3DLosxl/X5asQa/A=; b=PnJi4z2/wDAeRutZwwYeX1L/Q9grvAvrZ9osWh864sUCZTQxyB6NU/VP cSjaum90ysmkNvFXQDoR7Ejut1DyCIxoL4kqJf4Yp/ka8dlS8xKFnzIMk 6zntjWxyWc8rgWs; X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.49,489,1262563200"; d="scan'208";a="16388956" Received: from notes1.nominet.org.uk ([213.248.197.128]) by mx4.nominet.org.uk with ESMTP; 17 Feb 2010 10:53:49 +0000 In-Reply-To: <3162788D-3BC8-488B-9FA2-3C2202E66294@rfc1035.com> References: <4B79D64C.1050702@ogud.com> <3162788D-3BC8-488B-9FA2-3C2202E66294@rfc1035.com> To: Jim Reid Cc: namedroppers Subject: Re: [dnsext] Draft: WGLC draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-tcp-requirements MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 8.5 December 05, 2008 Message-ID: From: Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 10:53:47 +0000 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on notes1/Nominet(Release 7.0.1FP1 | May 25, 2006) at 17/02/2010 10:53:48 AM, Serialize complete at 17/02/2010 10:53:48 AM Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_alternative 003BDB05802576CD_=" Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: This is a multipart message in MIME format. --=_alternative 003BDB05802576CD_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > I think Mark's tweaks don't scan well. So how about: > Most DNS [RFC1035] transactions take place over UDP [RFC0792]. > TCP [RFC0793] is used for zone transfers and for other DNS > packets which exceed the 512 byte UDP message size limit > imposed in RFC1035. How's this: "Most DNS [RFC1035] transactions take place over UDP [RFC0792]. TCP [RFC0793] is used for zone transfers and for messages whose sizes exceed the DNS protocol's original 512 byte limit" > I'd change "some implementations lack the software logic > necessary...." to some implementations are unable to reassemble > fragmented datagrams". "Many firewalls routinely block fragmented IP packets, and some do not implement the algorithms necessary to reassemble fragmented packets" > The comma at "has arrived, and the only" is superflous and incorrect. My style guide disagrees - I'll leave that for the RFC Editors to decide. They like commas. > Long responses doesn't seem right: large responses? "long" is used consistently through the draft. > "Authoritative resolver implementations MUST support TCP so that they > may serve any long responses that they are configured to serve" seems > clumsy and ambiguous: It suggests TCP might be optional if there are > no big responses to serve. What's an authoritative resolver anyway? It > may be better to say: > > "Authoritative servers MUST support TCP so that they can serve > responses in cases where EDNS is not available and the reply would > exceed the 512 byte UDP limit in RFC1035. As Mark says the question of EDNS is really separate, and that would make this more than an editorial change. How about: "Authoritative server implementations MUST support TCP so that they do not limit the size of responses.". > Is it really necessary to put denial of service in quotes? Probably not - removed. > A comma is needed after "overload" in "To mitigate the risk of > unintentional server overload DNS..." OK. > "Whilst" seems rather quaint and may confuse non-native speakers. > [Yeah verily thy noble lord...] How about "Although there is..."? Done. BTW, Niall O'Reilly noticed the draft still said "of the order of TBD seconds" for connection timeouts. I propose to simply remove the "TBD" qualifier, since to specify a particular recommended value ould almost certainly lead to endless arguments about what that specific value should be. kind regards, Ray p.s. please don't forget to actually support the document's progress! -- Ray Bellis, MA(Oxon) MIET Senior Researcher in Advanced Projects, Nominet e: ray@nominet.org.uk, t: +44 1865 332211 --=_alternative 003BDB05802576CD_= Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
> I think Mark's tweaks don't scan well. So how about:
>    Most DNS [RFC1035] transactions take place over UDP [RFC0792].
>    TCP [RFC0793] is used for zone transfers and for other DNS
>    packets which exceed the 512 byte UDP message size limit
>    imposed in RFC1035.
How's this:

"Most DNS [RFC1035] transactions take place over UDP [RFC0792]. TCP [RFC0793] is used for zone transfers and for messages whose sizes exceed the DNS protocol's original 512 byte limit"

 
> I'd change "some implementations lack the software logic  
> necessary...." to some implementations are unable to reassemble  
> fragmented datagrams".
"Many firewalls routinely block fragmented IP packets, and some do not implement the algorithms necessary to reassemble fragmented packets"
 
> The comma at "has arrived, and the only" is superflous and incorrect.
My style guide disagrees - I'll leave that for the RFC Editors to decide.  They like commas.
 
> Long responses doesn't seem right: large responses?
"long" is used consistently through the draft.

> "Authoritative resolver implementations MUST support TCP so that they  
> may serve any long responses that they are configured to serve" seems  
> clumsy and ambiguous: It suggests TCP might be optional if there are  
> no big responses to serve. What's an authoritative resolver anyway? It  
> may be better to say:
>
> "Authoritative servers MUST support TCP so that they can serve  
> responses in cases where EDNS is not available and the reply would  
> exceed the 512 byte UDP limit in RFC1035.
As Mark says the question of EDNS is really separate, and that would make this more than an editorial change.  How about:

"Authoritative server implementations MUST support TCP so that they do not limit the size of responses.".

> Is it really necessary to put denial of service in quotes?
Probably not - removed.
 
> A comma is needed after "overload" in "To mitigate the risk of  
> unintentional server overload DNS..."
OK.

> "Whilst" seems rather quaint and may confuse non-native speakers.  
> [Yeah verily thy noble lord...] How about "Although there is..."?

Done.

BTW, Niall O'Reilly noticed the draft still said "of the order of TBD seconds" for connection timeouts.  I propose to simply remove the "TBD" qualifier, since to specify a particular recommended value ould almost certainly lead to endless arguments about what that specific value should be.

kind regards,

Ray

p.s. please don't forget to actually support the document's progress!

--
Ray Bellis, MA(Oxon) MIET
Senior Researcher in Advanced Projects, Nominet
e: ray@nominet.org.uk, t: +44 1865 332211


 --=_alternative 003BDB05802576CD_=-- From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Feb 17 03:16:25 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8BC473A7E8C; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 03:16:25 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 3.895 X-Spam-Level: *** X-Spam-Status: No, score=3.895 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_EQ_BLUEYON=1.4, HELO_MISMATCH_UK=1.749, MIME_BASE64_BLANKS=0.041, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zy4XxJgs1FYV; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 03:16:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97C9F3A7B42; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 03:16:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NhhrD-0008Rz-KX for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 11:14:15 +0000 Received: from [195.188.213.5] (helo=smtp-out2.blueyonder.co.uk) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nhhr9-0008Re-8K for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 11:14:11 +0000 Received: from [172.23.170.142] (helo=anti-virus02-09) by smtp-out2.blueyonder.co.uk with smtp (Exim 4.52) id 1Nhhr7-0007Bz-IM; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 11:14:09 +0000 Received: from [92.238.99.235] (helo=GeorgeLaptop) by asmtp-out1.blueyonder.co.uk with esmtpa (Exim 4.52) id 1Nhhr7-0006iu-0N; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 11:14:09 +0000 Message-ID: <3883EA38C9B543699C2D2A1947BB57C5@localhost> From: "George Barwood" To: "Olafur Gudmundsson" , "namedroppers" References: <4B79D64C.1050702@ogud.com> Subject: Re: [dnsext] Draft: WGLC draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-tcp-requirements Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 11:14:06 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5843 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: DQotLS0tLSBPcmlnaW5hbCBNZXNzYWdlIC0tLS0tIA0KRnJvbTogIk9sYWZ1ciBHdWRtdW5kc3Nv biIgPG9ndWRAb2d1ZC5jb20+DQpUbzogIm5hbWVkcm9wcGVycyIgPG5hbWVkcm9wcGVyc0BvcHMu aWV0Zi5vcmc+DQpTZW50OiBNb25kYXksIEZlYnJ1YXJ5IDE1LCAyMDEwIDExOjE4IFBNDQpTdWJq ZWN0OiBbZG5zZXh0XSBEcmFmdDogV0dMQyBkcmFmdC1pZXRmLWRuc2V4dC1kbnMtdGNwLXJlcXVp cmVtZW50cw0KDQoNCj4gRGVhciBDb2xsZWFndWVzLA0KPiANCj4gVGhpcyBtZXNzYWdlIHN0YXJ0 cyBhIFdvcmtpbmcgR3JvdXAgTGFzdCBDYWxsIGZvciAiRE5TIFRyYW5zcG9ydCBvdmVyIA0KPiBU Q1AgLSBJbXBsZW1lbnRhdGlvbiBSZXF1aXJlbWVudHMiDQo+IGh0dHA6Ly90b29scy5pZXRmLm9y Zy93Zy9kbnNleHQvZHJhZnQtaWV0Zi1kbnNleHQtZG5zLXRjcC1yZXF1aXJlbWVudHMvDQo+IA0K PiBUaGlzIFdHTEMgd2lsbCBjb25jbHVkZSBvbiBtaWRuaWdodCBNYXJjaCAzMXN0IDIwMTAgVVRD Lg0KPiANCj4gVGhpcyBkb2N1bWVudCBpcyBhaW1pZWQgYXQgdGhlIHN0YW5kYXJkcyB0cmFjaywg aWYgcHVibGlzaGVkLCB3aWxsDQo+IHVwZGF0ZSBSRkMxMDM0IGFuZCBSRkMxMTIzLiBUaGUgZG9j b3VtZW50IHN0YXRlcyBpbiBjbGVhciBtb2Rlcm4gDQo+IHN0YW5kYXJkcyBsYW5ndWFnZSB0aGUg VENQIHJlcXVpcmVtZW50cyBmb3IgaW1wbGVtZW50YXRpb25zLg0KPiANCj4gUGxlYXNlIHNlbmQg YSBtZXNzYWdlIHRvIG5hbWVkcm9wcGVycyB0aGF0IHlvdSBoYXZlIHJldmlld2VkIHRoZSANCj4g ZG9jdW1lbnQgYW5kIHdoZXRoZXIgeW91IHN1cHBvcnQgaXQuDQoNCkkgaGF2ZSByZXZpZXdlZCB0 aGUgZG9jdW1lbnQsIGFuZCBzdXBwb3J0IGl0Lg0KDQoiVGhpcyBkb2N1bWVudCB0aGVyZWZvcmUg UkVDT01NRU5EUyB0aGF0IHRoZSBhcHBsaWNhdGlvbi1sZXZlbCBpZGxlDQpwZXJpb2Qgc2hvdWxk IGJlIG9mIHRoZSBvcmRlciBvZiBUQkQgc2Vjb25kcy4iDQoNCldlIG5lZWQgdG8ga25vdyB3aGF0 IFRCRCBpcyBnb2luZyB0byBiZS4gMTA/IDMwPyAxMjA/DQpPciBsZWF2ZSB0aGF0IHRvIGltcGxl bWVudGF0aW9ucyBhbmQgb3BlcmF0b3JzIHRvIGRlY2lkZS4NCg0KIiBPcGVyYXRvcnMgb2YgcmVj dXJzaXZlIHNlcnZlcnMgc2hvdWxkIGVuc3VyZSB0aGF0IHRoZXkgb25seSBhY2NlcHQNCiAgIGNv bm5lY3Rpb25zIGZyb20gZXhwZWN0ZWQgY2xpZW50cywgYW5kIGRvIG5vdCBhY2NlcHQgdGhlbSBm cm9tDQogICB1bmtub3duIHNvdXJjZXMuICBJbiB0aGUgY2FzZSBvZiBVRFAgdHJhZmZpYyB0aGlz IHdpbGwgcHJvdGVjdA0KICAgYWdhaW5zdCByZWZsZWN0b3IgYXR0YWNrcyBbUkZDNTM1OF0iDQoN Ck5vdCBlbnRpcmVseSA6IHNpbmNlIHRoZSBzb3VyY2UgSVAgYWRkcmVzcyBpcyBmb3JnZWQsIHJl ZmxlY3RvciBhdHRhY2tzIGFyZSBub3Qgc3RvcHBlZCwNCmJ1dCB0aGV5IGFyZSBsaW1pdGVkIHRv IGF0dGFja3MgYWdhaW5zdCBleHBlY3RlZCBjbGllbnRzLiBJIHN1Z2dlc3QgYSB3ZWFrZW5pbmcg d29yZA0KYmUgaW5zZXJ0ZWQgInRoaXMgd2lsbCBoZWxwIHByb3RlY3QiLiBJbiBhbnkgY2FzZSBJ IHRoaW5rIFVEUCBzZWN1cml0eSBpcyBvdXRzaWRlIHRoZSBzY29wZSBvZg0KdGhpcyBkb2N1bWVu dCwgc28gd2h5IG1lbnRpb24gaXQ/DQoNCkkgc3VnZ2VzdCBhbiBpbmZvcm1hdGl2ZSByZWZlcmVu Y2UgdG8gYSBnZW5lcmFsIGRvY3VtZW50IG9uIFRDUCBzZWN1cml0eSwgZS5nLiANCg0KDQoNCg0K PiAgICAgT2xhZnVyDQo+ From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Feb 17 03:24:06 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD5CE28C20E; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 03:24:06 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.048 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.048 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WP72D6UxE8v8; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 03:24:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5AB33A77D0; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 03:24:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NhhzM-0009Rg-2C for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 11:22:40 +0000 Received: from [193.1.169.34] (helo=dakota.ucd.ie) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NhhzJ-0009RM-3K for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 11:22:37 +0000 Received: from conversion-daemon.dakota.ucd.ie by dakota.ucd.ie (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-2.05 (built Apr 28 2005)) id <0KXZ00E01FJ79700@dakota.ucd.ie> (original mail from Niall.oReilly@ucd.ie) for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 11:22:35 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [10.0.1.177] (bark.no8.be [83.141.81.52]) by dakota.ucd.ie (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-2.05 (built Apr 28 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0KXZ00C1VGXJZ600@dakota.ucd.ie>; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 11:22:32 +0000 (GMT) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 11:22:31 +0000 From: Niall O'Reilly Subject: Re: [dnsext] Draft: WGLC draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-tcp-requirements In-reply-to: To: Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk Cc: namedroppers Message-id: <4B7BD177.7030508@ucd.ie> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=UTF-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <4B79D64C.1050702@ogud.com> <3162788D-3BC8-488B-9FA2-3C2202E66294@rfc1035.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (X11/20090817) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On 17/02/10 10:53, Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk wrote: > p.s. please don't forget to actually support the document's progress! This is to express my support (FWIW) and to confirm that I've actually read the document and think it's useful. /Niall From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Feb 17 03:28:52 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4ECAA3A73B8; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 03:28:52 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.875 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.875 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.577, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_UK=1.749, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dBGY1ADA5H7d; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 03:28:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 193513A7855; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 03:28:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nhi2z-0009zv-L6 for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 11:26:25 +0000 Received: from [213.248.199.24] (helo=mx4.nominet.org.uk) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nhi2v-0009zO-9p for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 11:26:21 +0000 DomainKey-Signature: s=main.dk.nominet.selector; d=nominet.org.uk; c=nofws; q=dns; h=X-IronPort-AV:Received:In-Reply-To:References:To:Cc: Subject:MIME-Version:X-Mailer:Message-ID:From:Date: X-MIMETrack:Content-Type; b=GRdCximW5lGlKuL70evYa0YkkESrR5jHAdOdxsVbloKgxlVKyAV4zc4l nxV5Tj3Obr/3EcNO242EVyLBydHxutbg8hQWGhhjTYFav4SIQ5hru6+Zh igyFok0DQXwpa5R; DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nominet.org.uk; i=Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk; q=dns/txt; s=main.dkim.nominet.selector; t=1266405981; x=1297941981; h=from:sender:reply-to:subject:date:message-id:to:cc: mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:content-id: content-description:resent-date:resent-from:resent-sender: resent-to:resent-cc:resent-message-id:in-reply-to: references:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe: list-subscribe:list-post:list-owner:list-archive; z=From:=20Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk|Subject:=20Re:=20[dnse xt]=20Draft:=20WGLC=20draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-tcp-requireme nts|Date:=20Wed,=2017=20Feb=202010=2011:26:18=20+0000 |Message-ID:=20|To:=20"George=20Barwood" =20|Cc:=20"namedroppers" =20|MIME-Version:=201.0 |In-Reply-To:=20<3883EA38C9B543699C2D2A1947BB57C5@localho st>|References:=20<4B79D64C.1050702@ogud.com>=20<3883EA38 C9B543699C2D2A1947BB57C5@localhost>; bh=9o1GVe068+v9iyEjsgig22AtdX+qkcDkDJWwQHIEfpg=; b=od6dREHjgsBOh4C/a87J1H3f/FVepNu3D/xRJEkhxlUngr0Bu8BmNoZD eq3masgDDiJ/yE32wFArOP9S4O99q1sDyu+HULBOE8bv98DxqyL3NAP0k OBjft1vcB/tzyiy; X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.49,489,1262563200"; d="scan'208";a="16389689" Received: from notes1.nominet.org.uk ([213.248.197.128]) by mx4.nominet.org.uk with ESMTP; 17 Feb 2010 11:26:19 +0000 In-Reply-To: <3883EA38C9B543699C2D2A1947BB57C5@localhost> References: <4B79D64C.1050702@ogud.com> <3883EA38C9B543699C2D2A1947BB57C5@localhost> To: "George Barwood" Cc: "namedroppers" Subject: Re: [dnsext] Draft: WGLC draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-tcp-requirements MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 8.5 December 05, 2008 Message-ID: From: Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 11:26:18 +0000 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on notes1/Nominet(Release 7.0.1FP1 | May 25, 2006) at 17/02/2010 11:26:19 AM, Serialize complete at 17/02/2010 11:26:19 AM Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_alternative 003ED51A802576CD_=" Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: This is a multipart message in MIME format. --=_alternative 003ED51A802576CD_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > "This document therefore RECOMMENDS that the application-level idle > period should be of the order of TBD seconds." > > We need to know what TBD is going to be. 10? 30? 120? > Or leave that to implementations and operators to decide. See recent reply to Jim Reid. > " Operators of recursive servers should ensure that they only accept > connections from expected clients, and do not accept them from > unknown sources. In the case of UDP traffic this will protect > against reflector attacks [RFC5358]" > > Not entirely : since the source IP address is forged, reflector > attacks are not stopped, but they are limited to attacks against > expected clients. I suggest a weakening word > be inserted "this will help protect". In any case I think UDP > security is outside the scope of > this document, so why mention it? Strictly speaking full protection is attained by using border ingress filters, not just server configuration. I don't mind dropping "help" in though. Ray --=_alternative 003ED51A802576CD_= Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
> "This document therefore RECOMMENDS that the application-level idle
> period should be of the order of TBD seconds."
>
> We need to know what TBD is going to be. 10? 30? 120?
> Or leave that to implementations and operators to decide.
See recent reply to Jim Reid.
 
> " Operators of recursive servers should ensure that they only accept
>    connections from expected clients, and do not accept them from
>    unknown sources.  In the case of UDP traffic this will protect
>    against reflector attacks [RFC5358]"
>
> Not entirely : since the source IP address is forged, reflector
> attacks are not stopped, but they are limited to attacks against
> expected clients. I suggest a weakening word
> be inserted "this will help protect". In any case I think UDP
> security is outside the scope of
> this document, so why mention it?
Strictly speaking full protection is attained by using border ingress filters, not just server configuration.  I don't mind dropping "help" in though.

Ray
--=_alternative 003ED51A802576CD_=-- From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Feb 17 03:37:19 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 824523A7CC6; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 03:37:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.404 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.404 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-2.509, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, J_CHICKENPOX_42=0.6, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EVVCkWuRXTsC; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 03:37:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4DAA3A7CCD; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 03:37:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NhiBw-000BOy-15 for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 11:35:40 +0000 Received: from [195.54.233.65] (helo=hutch.rfc1035.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NhiBt-000BOO-IV for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 11:35:37 +0000 Received: from gromit.rfc1035.com (gromit.rfc1035.com [195.54.233.69]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: jim) by hutch.rfc1035.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E2B37154208B; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 11:35:34 +0000 (GMT) Cc: Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk, namedroppers Message-Id: <7E5FC343-06EC-4F92-8502-AF80E3E3D7BF@rfc1035.com> From: Jim Reid To: Niall O'Reilly In-Reply-To: <4B7BD177.7030508@ucd.ie> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v936) Subject: Re: [dnsext] Draft: WGLC draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-tcp-requirements Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 11:35:34 +0000 References: <4B79D64C.1050702@ogud.com> <3162788D-3BC8-488B-9FA2-3C2202E66294@rfc1035.com> <4B7BD177.7030508@ucd.ie> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.936) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On 17 Feb 2010, at 11:22, Niall O'Reilly wrote: > This is to express my support (FWIW) and to confirm > that I've actually read the document and think it's useful. Me too! From djsirflyer@ietf.org Wed Feb 17 03:45:21 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76BB228C210 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 03:45:21 -0800 (PST) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char C2 hex): From: Approved VIAGRA\302\256 Store ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 03:45:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from 220-131-59-37.dynamic.hinet.net (220-131-59-37.dynamic.hinet.net [220.131.59.37]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 013F73A7CD0 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 03:43:20 -0800 (PST) From: Approved VIAGRA® Store Subject: Special Discount 70% for dnsext-archive@ietf.org To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20100217114456.013F73A7CD0@core3.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 03:43:20 -0800 (PST)
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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Feb 17 03:55:24 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A6A728C155; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 03:55:24 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.579 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.579 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-2.084, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tn3wGRXMOUO6; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 03:55:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A09E33A7882; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 03:55:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NhiTE-000DtJ-QH for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 11:53:32 +0000 Received: from [195.54.233.65] (helo=hutch.rfc1035.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NhiTC-000Dss-Jo for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 11:53:30 +0000 Received: from gromit.rfc1035.com (gromit.rfc1035.com [195.54.233.69]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: jim) by hutch.rfc1035.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id BF9DD154208B; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 11:53:28 +0000 (GMT) Cc: namedroppers Message-Id: From: Jim Reid To: Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v936) Subject: Re: [dnsext] Draft: WGLC draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-tcp-requirements Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 11:53:28 +0000 References: <4B79D64C.1050702@ogud.com> <3162788D-3BC8-488B-9FA2-3C2202E66294@rfc1035.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.936) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On 17 Feb 2010, at 10:53, Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk wrote: >> I think Mark's tweaks don't scan well. So how about: >> Most DNS [RFC1035] transactions take place over UDP [RFC0792]. >> TCP [RFC0793] is used for zone transfers and for other DNS >> packets which exceed the 512 byte UDP message size limit >> imposed in RFC1035. > > How's this: > > "Most DNS [RFC1035] transactions take place over UDP [RFC0792]. TCP > [RFC0793] is used for zone transfers and for messages whose sizes > exceed > the DNS protocol's original 512 byte limit" Fine with me. >> I'd change "some implementations lack the software logic >> necessary...." to some implementations are unable to reassemble >> fragmented datagrams". > > "Many firewalls routinely block fragmented IP packets, and some do not > implement the algorithms necessary to reassemble fragmented packets" Aside from the unnecessary comma :-), I don't think your text tells the full story. That's why I suggested the document could say some implementations can't reassemble fragments without going into specifics. There could be many reasons for failure to reassembly fragments. A box could have software that implements the reassembly algorithms but never gets to exercise that code path: bugs in the code, fragments get dropped by the network interface, etc, etc. >> The comma at "has arrived, and the only" is superflous and incorrect. > > My style guide disagrees - I'll leave that for the RFC Editors to > decide. > They like commas. > >> Long responses doesn't seem right: large responses? > > "long" is used consistently through the draft. True. But a packet's dimensions are more usually discussed in terms of size rather than (string) length. > How about: > > "Authoritative server implementations MUST support TCP so that they > do not > limit the size of responses.". Fine here Ray. From dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Wed Feb 17 04:08:46 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25C363A7BAB for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 04:08:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -59.895 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-59.895 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_EQ_DSL=1.129, HELO_EQ_PL=1.135, HOST_EQ_PL=1.95, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_16=1.526, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_02=0.383, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_2=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, SARE_FROM_DRUGS=1.666, URIBL_SBL=20, URI_HEX=0.368, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mH-j2HpXXkmw for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 04:08:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from gkl146.internetdsl.tpnet.pl (gkl146.internetdsl.tpnet.pl [83.3.11.146]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E12783A7CA2 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 04:08:43 -0800 (PST) From: "Pfizer (tm) VIAGRA (c)" To: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: Personal dnsext-archive 72% Off MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20100217120843.E12783A7CA2@core3.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 04:08:43 -0800 (PST) User dnsext-archive Newsletter
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From dnsext-archive@ietf.org Wed Feb 17 04:08:49 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19F363A7CCC for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 04:08:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -59.895 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-59.895 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_EQ_DSL=1.129, HELO_EQ_PL=1.135, HOST_EQ_PL=1.95, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_16=1.526, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_02=0.383, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_2=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, SARE_FROM_DRUGS=1.666, URIBL_SBL=20, URI_HEX=0.368, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bSIstJpo2oQK for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 04:08:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from gkl146.internetdsl.tpnet.pl (gkl146.internetdsl.tpnet.pl [83.3.11.146]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0F773A7CA2 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 04:08:46 -0800 (PST) From: "Pfizer (tm) VIAGRA (c)" To: dnsext-archive@ietf.org Subject: Personal dnsext-archive 79% Off MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20100217120846.E0F773A7CA2@core3.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 04:08:46 -0800 (PST) User dnsext-archive Newsletter
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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Feb 17 04:37:37 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33A653A7E9C; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 04:37:37 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id D0ZOqiqHF8RF; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 04:37:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44F7C3A7B7A; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 04:37:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nhj6p-000JAT-FV for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 12:34:27 +0000 Received: from [2001:478:6:0:230:48ff:fe11:220a] (helo=vacation.karoshi.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nhj6b-000Iuy-UZ for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 12:34:25 +0000 Received: from karoshi.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by vacation.karoshi.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o1HCVhcY022818; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 12:31:46 GMT Received: (from bmanning@localhost) by karoshi.com (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id o1HCVh0J022816; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 12:31:43 GMT Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 12:31:43 +0000 From: bmanning@vacation.karoshi.com To: Jim Reid Cc: Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk, namedroppers Subject: Re: [dnsext] Draft: WGLC draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-tcp-requirements Message-ID: <20100217123143.GA22282@vacation.karoshi.com.> References: <4B79D64C.1050702@ogud.com> <3162788D-3BC8-488B-9FA2-3C2202E66294@rfc1035.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 11:53:28AM +0000, Jim Reid wrote: > On 17 Feb 2010, at 10:53, Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk wrote: > > > How about: > > > >"Authoritative server implementations MUST support TCP so that they > >do not > >limit the size of responses.". > > Fine here Ray. > and we are saying nothig about resolvers MUST support TCP so that they can receive responses too large for UDP? --bill From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Feb 17 04:40:47 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 123883A7B7A; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 04:40:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.834 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.834 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.536, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_UK=1.749, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vb7sgiFCzRiY; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 04:40:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBBC23A787F; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 04:40:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NhjBm-000JqQ-8R for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 12:39:34 +0000 Received: from [213.248.199.24] (helo=mx4.nominet.org.uk) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NhjBj-000Jq1-Ds for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 12:39:31 +0000 DomainKey-Signature: s=main.dk.nominet.selector; d=nominet.org.uk; c=nofws; q=dns; h=X-IronPort-AV:Received:In-Reply-To:References:To:Cc: Subject:MIME-Version:X-Mailer:Message-ID:From:Date: X-MIMETrack:Content-Type; b=txvYh1OKL5A+5CCIb3RJ9qEPoSmIVrNaqPZOuUk/sl+fF/uHTTYSATj/ y+jwdh+r5LclQPyCaKFZivMlOuHmsnfTq8EshJe8t2Ex+Wn0X3s1Sfp3Y jhB/CyOFVoO5zRd; DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nominet.org.uk; i=Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk; q=dns/txt; s=main.dkim.nominet.selector; t=1266410371; x=1297946371; h=from:sender:reply-to:subject:date:message-id:to:cc: mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:content-id: content-description:resent-date:resent-from:resent-sender: resent-to:resent-cc:resent-message-id:in-reply-to: references:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe: list-subscribe:list-post:list-owner:list-archive; z=From:=20Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk|Subject:=20Re:=20[dnse xt]=20Draft:=20WGLC=20draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-tcp-requireme nts|Date:=20Wed,=2017=20Feb=202010=2012:39:17=20+0000 |Message-ID:=20|To:=20bmanning@vacation. karoshi.com|Cc:=20namedroppers=20|MIME-Version:=201.0|In-Reply-To:=20<20100217123143.GA 22282@vacation.karoshi.com.>|References:=20<4B79D64C.1050 702@ogud.com>=20<3162788D-3BC8-488B-9FA2-3C2202E66294@rfc 1035.com>=20=20=20<20100217123143.GA22282@vacat ion.karoshi.com.>; bh=0AuhJlu+iGw4/pJZ1mTQDun1HoD1BPWNDUw7mKVtnek=; b=sG7qt9np00yC787gn8x8IgFAL80M5EzjJILs9msM/fAOX2ZyfRKss7TP kkko9xTiwbImQ+4EPNs3Bx8mu81SHKV3Lg6wp4Ggm9RZZ0xZ87Etdtvff fe2LNf84A1GHIX4; X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.49,490,1262563200"; d="scan'208";a="16391075" Received: from notes1.nominet.org.uk ([213.248.197.128]) by mx4.nominet.org.uk with ESMTP; 17 Feb 2010 12:39:17 +0000 In-Reply-To: <20100217123143.GA22282@vacation.karoshi.com.> References: <4B79D64C.1050702@ogud.com> <3162788D-3BC8-488B-9FA2-3C2202E66294@rfc1035.com> <20100217123143.GA22282@vacation.karoshi.com.> To: bmanning@vacation.karoshi.com Cc: namedroppers Subject: Re: [dnsext] Draft: WGLC draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-tcp-requirements MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 8.5 December 05, 2008 Message-ID: From: Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 12:39:17 +0000 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on notes1/Nominet(Release 7.0.1FP1 | May 25, 2006) at 17/02/2010 12:39:17 PM, Serialize complete at 17/02/2010 12:39:17 PM Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_alternative 0045836C802576CD_=" Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: This is a multipart message in MIME format. --=_alternative 0045836C802576CD_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > > > and we are saying nothig about resolvers MUST support TCP so > that they can receive responses too large for UDP? > Yes, we do: "A recursive resolver or forwarder MUST support TCP so that it does not prevent long responses from a TCP-capable server from reaching its TCP-capable clients." Ray -- Ray Bellis, MA(Oxon) MIET Senior Researcher in Advanced Projects, Nominet e: ray@nominet.org.uk, t: +44 1865 332211 --=_alternative 0045836C802576CD_= Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" >
>
>    and we are saying nothig about resolvers MUST support TCP so
>    that they can receive responses too large for UDP?
>

Yes, we do:

"A recursive resolver or forwarder MUST support TCP so that it does not prevent long responses from a TCP-capable server from reaching its TCP-capable clients."

Ray

--
Ray Bellis, MA(Oxon) MIET
Senior Researcher in Advanced Projects, Nominet
e: ray@nominet.org.uk, t: +44 1865 332211


 --=_alternative 0045836C802576CD_=-- From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Feb 17 04:47:23 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40D9928C0F8; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 04:47:23 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.241 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.241 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.008, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bxUiRcTBD9aO; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 04:47:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A53E3A7EA3; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 04:47:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NhjHe-000KlP-De for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 12:45:38 +0000 Received: from [2001:660:3003:2::4:11] (helo=mx2.nic.fr) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NhjHb-000Kkp-KH for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 12:45:35 +0000 Received: from mx2.nic.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mx2.nic.fr (Postfix) with SMTP id 6832F1C0101 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 13:45:34 +0100 (CET) Received: from relay2.nic.fr (relay2.nic.fr [192.134.4.163]) by mx2.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63FD11C0020 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 13:45:34 +0100 (CET) Received: from bortzmeyer.nic.fr (batilda.nic.fr [192.134.4.69]) by relay2.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5805E6C018B for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 13:45:34 +0100 (CET) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 13:45:34 +0100 From: Stephane Bortzmeyer To: IETF DNSEXT WG Subject: [dnsext] Re: Collective name for Answer, Authority, and Additional Sections? Message-ID: <20100217124534.GA8367@nic.fr> References: <8B8045AE-F838-4599-B46E-80B940195BA2@apple.com> <56802.1266362920@nsa.vix.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <56802.1266362920@nsa.vix.com> X-Operating-System: Debian GNU/Linux 5.0.4 X-Kernel: Linux 2.6.26-2-686 i686 Organization: NIC France X-URL: http://www.nic.fr/ User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On Tue, Feb 16, 2010 at 11:28:40PM +0000, Paul Vixie wrote a message of 5 lines which said: > UPDATE names the sections differently, Same problem with EDNS which uses an Additional Section which is not really a RR Section. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Feb 17 04:47:46 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E86C3A7EA5; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 04:47:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id i57tHSaE713o; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 04:47:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E0213A7EA3; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 04:47:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NhjIU-000Ks0-4b for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 12:46:30 +0000 Received: from [2001:478:6:0:230:48ff:fe11:220a] (helo=vacation.karoshi.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NhjIO-000Kbo-0N for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 12:46:24 +0000 Received: from karoshi.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by vacation.karoshi.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o1HChpcY022950; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 12:43:51 GMT Received: (from bmanning@localhost) by karoshi.com (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id o1HChpDo022949; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 12:43:51 GMT Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 12:43:51 +0000 From: bmanning@vacation.karoshi.com To: Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk Cc: bmanning@vacation.karoshi.com, namedroppers Subject: Re: [dnsext] Draft: WGLC draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-tcp-requirements Message-ID: <20100217124351.GA22924@vacation.karoshi.com.> References: <4B79D64C.1050702@ogud.com> <3162788D-3BC8-488B-9FA2-3C2202E66294@rfc1035.com> <20100217123143.GA22282@vacation.karoshi.com.> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 12:39:17PM +0000, Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk wrote: > > > > > > and we are saying nothig about resolvers MUST support TCP so > > that they can receive responses too large for UDP? > > > > Yes, we do: > > "A recursive resolver or forwarder MUST support TCP so that it does not > prevent long responses from a TCP-capable server from reaching its > TCP-capable clients." > > Ray > and stubs are left off the hook... UDP/512 only...? --bill From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Feb 17 04:48:10 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0CC33A7EA3; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 04:48:10 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.798 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.798 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.500, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_UK=1.749, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iZ2L+nykTQoa; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 04:48:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D93FB3A7EA0; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 04:48:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NhjIk-000Ku0-4o for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 12:46:46 +0000 Received: from [213.248.199.24] (helo=mx4.nominet.org.uk) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NhjIh-000Ktd-MS for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 12:46:43 +0000 DomainKey-Signature: s=main.dk.nominet.selector; d=nominet.org.uk; c=nofws; q=dns; h=X-IronPort-AV:Received:In-Reply-To:References:To:Cc: Subject:MIME-Version:X-Mailer:Message-ID:From:Date: X-MIMETrack:Content-Type; b=ES0ndUHYR4VfBCTo0id5aMv/yt8qwBC2tzKQADu1M5VQUyUpya+mREeR Xsou7kge58CognJeeVeJHlrs0FzuFWz8Gd3Gsq++O/LTHZ86OnIVO+5QV z/dziO92cUv2Lpm; DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nominet.org.uk; i=Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk; q=dns/txt; s=main.dkim.nominet.selector; t=1266410803; x=1297946803; h=from:sender:reply-to:subject:date:message-id:to:cc: mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:content-id: content-description:resent-date:resent-from:resent-sender: resent-to:resent-cc:resent-message-id:in-reply-to: references:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe: list-subscribe:list-post:list-owner:list-archive; z=From:=20Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk|Subject:=20Re:=20[dnse xt]=20Draft:=20WGLC=20draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-tcp-requireme nts|Date:=20Wed,=2017=20Feb=202010=2012:46:41=20+0000 |Message-ID:=20|To:=20bmanning@vacation. karoshi.com|Cc:=20namedroppers=20|MIME-Version:=201.0|In-Reply-To:=20<20100217124351.GA 22924@vacation.karoshi.com.>|References:=20<4B79D64C.1050 702@ogud.com>=20<3162788D-3BC8-488B-9FA2-3C2202E66294@rfc 1035.com>=20=20=20<20100217123143.GA22282@vacat ion.karoshi.com.>=20=20<20100217124351.G A22924@vacation.karoshi.com.>; bh=W/xyJYopjgRb4NFd7OA7FI17KFXgkVuMzQNne7aXPGA=; b=M2EV84cF5WKncSI6bnaGzq7Bm4ppuCKge/lmP/uqXG3ZUaQkK+X2ZFYb wyCUMfrZXZTEi9mHDvfCRXqUuTqkFqiNV1HX43+nnl4ZMhms8Zx4yrQId kxNiAEmcgSUTOp4; X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.49,490,1262563200"; d="scan'208";a="16391277" Received: from notes1.nominet.org.uk ([213.248.197.128]) by mx4.nominet.org.uk with ESMTP; 17 Feb 2010 12:46:42 +0000 In-Reply-To: <20100217124351.GA22924@vacation.karoshi.com.> References: <4B79D64C.1050702@ogud.com> <3162788D-3BC8-488B-9FA2-3C2202E66294@rfc1035.com> <20100217123143.GA22282@vacation.karoshi.com.> <20100217124351.GA22924@vacation.karoshi.com.> To: bmanning@vacation.karoshi.com Cc: namedroppers Subject: Re: [dnsext] Draft: WGLC draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-tcp-requirements MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 8.5 December 05, 2008 Message-ID: From: Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 12:46:41 +0000 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on notes1/Nominet(Release 7.0.1FP1 | May 25, 2006) at 17/02/2010 12:46:41 PM, Serialize complete at 17/02/2010 12:46:41 PM Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_alternative 004630F9802576CD_=" Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: This is a multipart message in MIME format. --=_alternative 004630F9802576CD_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > and stubs are left off the hook... UDP/512 only...? No, Bill, they're not. Read the next line of the draft... ;-) Ray --=_alternative 004630F9802576CD_= Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
>    and stubs are left off the hook... UDP/512 only...?
No, Bill, they're not.  Read the next line of the draft... ;-)

Ray
--=_alternative 004630F9802576CD_=-- From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Feb 17 05:02:44 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FCE728C213; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 05:02:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.48 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.48 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.985, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BcqeG7JH5X8K; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 05:02:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D6E528C211; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 05:02:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NhjWC-000NFI-70 for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 13:00:40 +0000 Received: from [195.54.233.65] (helo=hutch.rfc1035.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NhjW5-000NEZ-S5 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 13:00:34 +0000 Received: from gromit.rfc1035.com (gromit.rfc1035.com [195.54.233.69]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: jim) by hutch.rfc1035.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id B2283154208B; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 13:00:31 +0000 (GMT) Cc: Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk, namedroppers Message-Id: <628928FF-E372-4656-92DF-D37EBA3D3207@rfc1035.com> From: Jim Reid To: bmanning@vacation.karoshi.com In-Reply-To: <20100217123143.GA22282@vacation.karoshi.com.> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v936) Subject: Re: [dnsext] Draft: WGLC draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-tcp-requirements Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 13:00:31 +0000 References: <4B79D64C.1050702@ogud.com> <3162788D-3BC8-488B-9FA2-3C2202E66294@rfc1035.com> <20100217123143.GA22282@vacation.karoshi.com.> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.936) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On 17 Feb 2010, at 12:31, bmanning@vacation.karoshi.com wrote: > On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 11:53:28AM +0000, Jim Reid wrote: >> On 17 Feb 2010, at 10:53, Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk wrote: >> >>> How about: >>> >>> "Authoritative server implementations MUST support TCP so that they >>> do not limit the size of responses.". >> > and we are saying nothig about resolvers MUST support TCP so > that they can receive responses too large for UDP? Ray's text already does that IMO. An authoritative server has to be able to speak DNS over TCP in case the responses are too big. For some definition of 'big'. It doesn't matter if the size limitation is imposed by UDP or EDNS: supporting TCP means the data will get through. From dnsext-archive@ietf.org Wed Feb 17 06:05:25 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E20C28C0E2 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 06:05:25 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -12.056 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-12.056 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_24=1.552, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_02=0.383, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, SARE_FROM_DRUGS=1.666, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_SBL=20, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, URI_HEX=0.368, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2qJ1LYGO5qqV for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 06:05:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from steady-wirer.volia.net (steady-wirer.volia.net [93.73.170.144]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E24203A7B5E for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 06:05:22 -0800 (PST) From: "VIAGRA from Pfizer" To: dnsext-archive@ietf.org Subject: dnsext-archive Winter -80% Deals Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <20100217140522.E24203A7B5E@core3.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 06:05:22 -0800 (PST) December 2009
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It's easy to buy, when there are bonuses like these! http://img715.imageshack.us/img715/884/hursh.swf From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Feb 17 10:04:19 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD2F53A7D2E; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 10:04:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.615 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.615 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.567, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id X9rkyHUsdp7k; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 10:04:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3C1E3A7D14; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 10:04:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NhoAd-0009Bo-66 for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 17:58:43 +0000 Received: from [192.150.186.11] (helo=fruitcake.ICSI.Berkeley.EDU) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NhoAZ-0009BS-MP for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 17:58:39 +0000 Received: from [IPv6:::1] (jack.ICSI.Berkeley.EDU [192.150.186.73]) by fruitcake.ICSI.Berkeley.EDU (8.12.11.20060614/8.12.11) with ESMTP id o1HHwbtu010325; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 09:58:38 -0800 (PST) References: <4B79D64C.1050702@ogud.com> <3162788D-3BC8-488B-9FA2-3C2202E66294@rfc1035.com> <20100217123143.GA22282@vacation.karoshi.com.> <628928FF-E372-4656-92DF-D37EBA3D3207@rfc1035.com> In-Reply-To: <628928FF-E372-4656-92DF-D37EBA3D3207@rfc1035.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: Nicholas Weaver From: Nicholas Weaver Subject: Re: [dnsext] Draft: WGLC draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-tcp-requirements Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 09:58:37 -0800 To: namedroppers X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: Overall, I support this draft, however, I'd make the following = suggestion. For section 5: Connection handling. I think a fixed timeout is limiting, rather, I'd suggest text perhaps = more like this: > Other more modern protocols (e.g. HTTP [RFC2616]) have support for > persistent TCP connections and operational experience has shown that > long timeouts can easily cause resource exhaustion and poor response > under heavy load. Intentionally opening many connections and leaving > them dormant can trivially create a "denial of service" attack. At the same time, prematurely closing connections increases client query = latency. Since DNS is commonly on the critical path for numerous = network activities, maintaining low latency is a priority. Thus this = document therefore RECOMMENDS that the application-level idle period = should be undefined, as it will vary based on the traffic a particular = server received. =20 A server should monitor its current resource utilization and, when under = state pressure, MAY elect to terminate idle connections in order to free = state. Therefore if the server needs to unilaterally close a dormant = TCP connection it MUST be free to do so whenever required. At the same = time, when the idle connections are not consuming significant resources, = the server SHOULD maintain idle connections in order to reduce protocol = latency for subsequent queries. =20 Servers MAY instead use a fixed timeout for idle connections, but = clients MUST NOT rely on such a timeout being consistent. Likewise, a = server MAY limit the number of concurrent connections a client has = outstanding to a number greater than four. If this limit is exceeded, = may terminate an arbitrary set of the client's connections until the = client is below the limit, even if some of the connections have = outstanding queries. (Rationall: Timeout on idle connections should be dynamic in practice, = so it should be expressed as such. 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------=_NextPart_000_0007_01CAAFFE.4E572B50-- From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Feb 17 10:25:17 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59FCE3A7D7E; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 10:25:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.389 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.389 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.894, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id x8WQfePXCa1f; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 10:25:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0839C3A7BB3; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 10:25:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NhoY6-000CK1-QI for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 18:22:58 +0000 Received: from [195.54.233.65] (helo=hutch.rfc1035.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NhoY3-000CIz-Qo for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 18:22:56 +0000 Received: from gromit.rfc1035.com (gromit.rfc1035.com [195.54.233.69]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: jim) by hutch.rfc1035.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 53B6C154208B; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 18:22:52 +0000 (GMT) Cc: namedroppers Message-Id: <3465510C-6CD1-477E-8AE1-8D4BC57FEF2B@rfc1035.com> From: Jim Reid To: Nicholas Weaver In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v936) Subject: [dnsext] concurrent TCP connections Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 18:22:52 +0000 References: <4B79D64C.1050702@ogud.com> <3162788D-3BC8-488B-9FA2-3C2202E66294@rfc1035.com> <20100217123143.GA22282@vacation.karoshi.com.> <628928FF-E372-4656-92DF-D37EBA3D3207@rfc1035.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.936) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On 17 Feb 2010, at 17:58, Nicholas Weaver wrote: > Servers MAY instead use a fixed timeout for idle connections, but > clients MUST NOT rely on such a timeout being consistent. Likewise, > a server MAY limit the number of concurrent connections a client has > outstanding to a number greater than four. Why four and not three or five? 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List-Archive: On Feb 17, 2010, at 10:22 AM, Jim Reid wrote: > On 17 Feb 2010, at 17:58, Nicholas Weaver wrote: >=20 >> Servers MAY instead use a fixed timeout for idle connections, but = clients MUST NOT rely on such a timeout being consistent. Likewise, a = server MAY limit the number of concurrent connections a client has = outstanding to a number greater than four. >=20 > Why four and not three or five? You want an arbitrary number, probably greater than two, but why four in = particular to say as a minimum? Four is a number of concurrent HTTP sessions that web browsers will keep = open to a given server. Its also a power of 2. 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List-Archive: On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 2:24 AM, wrote: > This was describing an _operational_ case in which TCP support is not > required, and the group consensus was that the draft should focus on > implementation rather than operations. > > Hence the new version mandates TCP support for _implementations_, with the > caveat (at the end of the introduction) that operators may disable it, > albeit with side effects. I continue to oppose the ridiculous notion that an IETF working group gets to decide unobservable implementation details. There's no way for you to distinguish an authoritative server that supports TCP but disables it from an authoritative server that does not support TCP, and so there's no impact on interoperability of allowing both instead of just one. >From RFC 2119, Section 6: Imperatives of the type defined in this memo must be used with care and sparingly. In particular, they MUST only be used where it is actually required for interoperation or to limit behavior which has potential for causing harm (e.g., limiting retransmisssions) For example, they must not be used to try to impose a particular method on implementors where the method is not required for interoperability. You're violating RFC 2119 by using "MUST" to describe TCP support requirements in a situation not required for interoperation. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Feb 17 12:34:49 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26C383A7D8D; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 12:34:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.583 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.583 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.535, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XtdW1gdUxhOP; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 12:34:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3840E28C137; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 12:34:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NhqZu-0007Ox-KO for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 20:32:58 +0000 Received: from [192.150.186.11] (helo=fruitcake.ICSI.Berkeley.EDU) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NhqZs-0007Oc-Ds for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 20:32:56 +0000 Received: from [IPv6:::1] (jack.ICSI.Berkeley.EDU [192.150.186.73]) by fruitcake.ICSI.Berkeley.EDU (8.12.11.20060614/8.12.11) with ESMTP id o1HKWq6p002696; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 12:32:52 -0800 (PST) References: <4B79D64C.1050702@ogud.com> In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: Nicholas Weaver , Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk, namedroppers From: Nicholas Weaver Subject: Re: [dnsext] Draft: WGLC draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-tcp-requirements Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 12:32:51 -0800 To: Matthew Dempsky X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On Feb 17, 2010, at 12:12 PM, Matthew Dempsky wrote: > On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 2:24 AM, wrote: >> This was describing an _operational_ case in which TCP support is not >> required, and the group consensus was that the draft should focus on >> implementation rather than operations. >>=20 >> Hence the new version mandates TCP support for _implementations_, = with the >> caveat (at the end of the introduction) that operators may disable = it, >> albeit with side effects. >=20 > I continue to oppose the ridiculous notion that an IETF working group > gets to decide unobservable implementation details. There's no way > for you to distinguish an authoritative server that supports TCP but > disables it from an authoritative server that does not support TCP, > and so there's no impact on interoperability of allowing both instead > of just one. Actually, there is a huge distinction: An implementation has no way of knowing that responses will never need = to be truncated. An operational deployment does. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Feb 17 12:52:30 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1802A28C16B; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 12:52:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.89 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.89 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.017, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WaCkZ18awObB; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 12:52:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E3083A7F22; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 12:52:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NhqqK-0009Z8-1v for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 20:49:56 +0000 Received: from [209.85.222.193] (helo=mail-pz0-f193.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NhqqI-0009Yw-2N for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 20:49:54 +0000 Received: by pzk31 with SMTP id 31so5811812pzk.32 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 12:49:53 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.115.101.39 with SMTP id d39mr5669889wam.207.1266439793726; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 12:49:53 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <4B79D64C.1050702@ogud.com> Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 12:49:53 -0800 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [dnsext] Draft: WGLC draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-tcp-requirements From: Matthew Dempsky To: Nicholas Weaver Cc: Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk, namedroppers Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 12:32 PM, Nicholas Weaver wrote: > An implementation has no way of knowing that responses will never need to be truncated. False. djbdns includes a dedicated RBL DNS server (rbldns) that uses a database consisting of just a bunch of blacklisted CIDR blocks. It only ever returns answers with a single A record and/or a single TXT record less than about 100 bytes long. It knows it will never return a truncated response. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Feb 17 12:54:28 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7471328C16E; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 12:54:28 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.569 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.569 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.521, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rvFvj94deKl1; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 12:54:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1E5728C14A; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 12:54:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NhqtX-000A0Y-5C for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 20:53:15 +0000 Received: from [192.150.186.11] (helo=fruitcake.ICSI.Berkeley.EDU) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NhqtU-000A0N-Sg for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 20:53:12 +0000 Received: from [IPv6:::1] (jack.ICSI.Berkeley.EDU [192.150.186.73]) by fruitcake.ICSI.Berkeley.EDU (8.12.11.20060614/8.12.11) with ESMTP id o1HKr9S0005832; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 12:53:09 -0800 (PST) References: <4B79D64C.1050702@ogud.com> In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: Nicholas Weaver , Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk, namedroppers From: Nicholas Weaver Subject: Re: [dnsext] Draft: WGLC draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-tcp-requirements Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 12:53:09 -0800 To: Matthew Dempsky X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On Feb 17, 2010, at 12:49 PM, Matthew Dempsky wrote: > On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 12:32 PM, Nicholas Weaver > wrote: >> An implementation has no way of knowing that responses will never = need to be truncated. >=20 > False. djbdns includes a dedicated RBL DNS server (rbldns) that uses > a database consisting of just a bunch of blacklisted CIDR blocks. It > only ever returns answers with a single A record and/or a single TXT > record less than about 100 bytes long. It knows it will never return > a truncated response. A GENERAL purpose implementation will have no way of knowing... Better phrasing? From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Feb 17 13:00:36 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20A2828C198; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 13:00:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.812 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.812 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.939, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jCm3fckJ9oH4; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 13:00:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23EA728C0F0; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 13:00:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NhqzC-000AoW-DA for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 20:59:06 +0000 Received: from [209.85.222.193] (helo=mail-pz0-f193.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NhqzA-000Ao0-7z for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 20:59:04 +0000 Received: by pzk31 with SMTP id 31so5821945pzk.32 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 12:59:03 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.114.6.27 with SMTP id 27mr5704905waf.208.1266440343712; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 12:59:03 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <4B79D64C.1050702@ogud.com> Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 12:59:03 -0800 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [dnsext] Draft: WGLC draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-tcp-requirements From: Matthew Dempsky To: Nicholas Weaver Cc: Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk, namedroppers Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 12:53 PM, Nicholas Weaver wrote: > A GENERAL purpose implementation will have no way of knowing... Irrelevant. rbldns is still a legitimate DNS server. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Feb 17 13:05:32 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA1DA28C245; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 13:05:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.555 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.555 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.507, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ufzRIKXNlChU; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 13:05:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07D923A68AC; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 13:05:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nhr3i-000BPK-Tx for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 21:03:46 +0000 Received: from [192.150.186.11] (helo=fruitcake.ICSI.Berkeley.EDU) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nhr3g-000BP2-QY for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 21:03:44 +0000 Received: from [IPv6:::1] (jack.ICSI.Berkeley.EDU [192.150.186.73]) by fruitcake.ICSI.Berkeley.EDU (8.12.11.20060614/8.12.11) with ESMTP id o1HL3eaL007176; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 13:03:40 -0800 (PST) References: <4B79D64C.1050702@ogud.com> In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-Id: <143523A5-C5C5-4D0D-BF3F-8FC840E03520@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: Nicholas Weaver , Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk, namedroppers From: Nicholas Weaver Subject: Re: [dnsext] Draft: WGLC draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-tcp-requirements Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 13:03:40 -0800 To: Matthew Dempsky X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On Feb 17, 2010, at 12:59 PM, Matthew Dempsky wrote: > On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 12:53 PM, Nicholas Weaver > wrote: >> A GENERAL purpose implementation will have no way of knowing... >=20 > Irrelevant. rbldns is still a legitimate DNS server. It is not however a general purpose DNS server, because it is = deliberately restricted to serving records which the implementer = a-priori knew or assumed that would never need truncation. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Feb 17 13:07:43 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FBF33A7F22; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 13:07:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.745 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.745 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.872, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id u9cKfz36DDMt; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 13:07:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8834C3A7F20; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 13:07:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nhr6L-000Bme-PP for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 21:06:29 +0000 Received: from [209.85.222.193] (helo=mail-pz0-f193.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nhr6J-000BmO-Ny for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 21:06:27 +0000 Received: by pzk31 with SMTP id 31so5830377pzk.32 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 13:06:26 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.115.98.10 with SMTP id a10mr5476316wam.58.1266440786445; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 13:06:26 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <143523A5-C5C5-4D0D-BF3F-8FC840E03520@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> References: <4B79D64C.1050702@ogud.com> <143523A5-C5C5-4D0D-BF3F-8FC840E03520@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 13:06:26 -0800 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [dnsext] Draft: WGLC draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-tcp-requirements From: Matthew Dempsky To: Nicholas Weaver Cc: Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk, namedroppers Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 1:03 PM, Nicholas Weaver wrote: > It is not however a general purpose DNS server, Irrelevant. draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-tcp-requirements does not limit itself to "general purpose DNS servers". From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Feb 17 13:12:27 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFF923A7F25; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 13:12:26 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.542 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.542 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.494, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vVgSGoZB-Caa; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 13:12:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 146CC3A7EFD; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 13:12:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NhrAp-000CNJ-K7 for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 21:11:07 +0000 Received: from [192.150.186.11] (helo=fruitcake.ICSI.Berkeley.EDU) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NhrAn-000CMy-Eq for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 21:11:05 +0000 Received: from [IPv6:::1] (jack.ICSI.Berkeley.EDU [192.150.186.73]) by fruitcake.ICSI.Berkeley.EDU (8.12.11.20060614/8.12.11) with ESMTP id o1HLB2qS008158; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 13:11:03 -0800 (PST) References: <4B79D64C.1050702@ogud.com> <143523A5-C5C5-4D0D-BF3F-8FC840E03520@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: Nicholas Weaver , Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk, namedroppers From: Nicholas Weaver Subject: Re: [dnsext] Draft: WGLC draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-tcp-requirements Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 13:11:02 -0800 To: Matthew Dempsky X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On Feb 17, 2010, at 1:06 PM, Matthew Dempsky wrote: > On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 1:03 PM, Nicholas Weaver > wrote: >> It is not however a general purpose DNS server, >=20 > Irrelevant. draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-tcp-requirements does not limit > itself to "general purpose DNS servers". How about "Unless the implementer or deployer can a-priori determine that = responses will NEVER exceed 512B of UDP..." and just leave it at that? There is really NO excuse for a DNS server implementation to not support = TCP. Adding in proper TCP support to a DNS authority takes at most a = couple of man-hours of work. (Speaking as I just added in TCP to my = evil-ugly-little server... True, it doesn't answer things the same way, = but...) From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Feb 17 13:21:05 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F18643A7B78; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 13:21:04 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 2.491 X-Spam-Level: ** X-Spam-Status: No, score=2.491 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.759, BAYES_00=-2.599, CHARSET_FARAWAY_HEADER=3.2, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, HELO_MISMATCH_DE=1.448, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xPIrLr60WqXv; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 13:21:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B71AD3A6F85; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 13:21:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NhrI7-000DTp-5a for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 21:18:39 +0000 Received: from [213.178.172.147] (helo=TR-Sys.de) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NhrI4-000DTU-DQ for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 21:18:37 +0000 Received: from ZEUS.TR-Sys.de by w. with ESMTP ($Revision: 1.37.109.26 $/16.3.2) id AA131281491; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 22:18:11 +0100 Received: (from ah@localhost) by z.TR-Sys.de (8.9.3 (PHNE_25183)/8.7.3) id WAA18279; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 22:18:10 +0100 (MEZ) From: Alfred =?hp-roman8?B?SM5uZXM=?= Message-Id: <201002172118.WAA18279@TR-Sys.de> Subject: Re: [dnsext] Draft: WGLC draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-tcp-requirements To: matthew@dempsky.org Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 22:18:10 +0100 (MEZ) Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org X-Mailer: ELM [$Revision: 1.17.214.3 $] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=hp-roman8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: At Wed, 17 Feb 2010 12:49:53 -0800, Matthew Dempsky wrote: > On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 12:32 PM, Nicholas Weaver > wrote: >> An implementation has no way of knowing that responses will never >> need to be truncated. > > False. djbdns includes a dedicated RBL DNS server (rbldns) that uses > a database consisting of just a bunch of blacklisted CIDR blocks. It > only ever returns answers with a single A record and/or a single TXT > record less than about 100 bytes long. It knows it will never return > a truncated response. Such dedicated, special-purpose servers -- entirely independent of their particular implementation -- serve a rather small population of clients specifically configured to consult this authority in order to frequently get data points needed to make policy decisions, isn't it? So these clients would perhaps really appreciate using persistent TCP connections to that server -- they can easily amortize the connection set-up overhead over thousands of requests and gain the security benefits of TCP (in particular improved forgery resilience) vs. UDP. This perspective would make a serious case to implement TCP on such dedicated servers as well. Kind regards, Alfred Hnes. -- +------------------------+--------------------------------------------+ | TR-Sys Alfred Hoenes | Alfred Hoenes Dipl.-Math., Dipl.-Phys. | | Gerlinger Strasse 12 | Phone: (+49)7156/9635-0, Fax: -18 | | D-71254 Ditzingen | E-Mail: ah@TR-Sys.de | +------------------------+--------------------------------------------+ From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Feb 17 13:36:03 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C66E3A7DB3; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 13:36:03 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.021 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.021 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.526, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XypOTbI9zZhZ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 13:36:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 438DF3A771E; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 13:36:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NhrX8-000FLn-OK for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 21:34:10 +0000 Received: from [17.254.13.23] (helo=mail-out4.apple.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NhrX6-000FLb-Ce for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 21:34:08 +0000 Received: from relay16.apple.com (relay16.apple.com [17.128.113.55]) by mail-out4.apple.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CEAA48CA9632; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 13:34:07 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: 11807137-b7bd4ae000000f0d-ec-4b7c60cfd7bf Received: from [17.202.46.71] (chesh1.apple.com [17.202.46.71]) by relay16.apple.com (Apple SCV relay) with SMTP id 90.B2.03853.FC06C7B4; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 13:34:07 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <56802.1266362920@nsa.vix.com> References: <8B8045AE-F838-4599-B46E-80B940195BA2@apple.com> <56802.1266362920@nsa.vix.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753.1) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <02BE76EC-39AD-42C1-9016-EFB816B63E2B@apple.com> Cc: IETF DNSEXT WG Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Stuart Cheshire Subject: Re: [dnsext] Collective name for Answer, Authority, and Additional Sections? Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 13:33:58 -0800 To: Paul Vixie X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.753.1) X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAQAAAZE= Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On 16 Feb, 2010, at 15:28, Paul Vixie wrote: > UPDATE names the sections differently, and uses resource record format > to hold things that are not resource records. so if you want to call > them collectively "the resource record sections" you should probably > say "the query message resource record sections" which begins to be > even more unwieldy than "the answer, authority, and additional > sections". Indeed. However, this is for draft-cheshire-dnsext-multicastdns, so the issue of DNS Update does not apply in the context of that document. There are a bunch of places in draft-cheshire-dnsext-multicastdns that refer to "the Answer Section" of response packets where I now realize it should say, "Answer, Authority, and Additional Sections." Hence the desire to have a less cumbersome phrase. Stuart Cheshire * Wizard Without Portfolio, Apple Inc. * Internet Architecture Board * www.stuartcheshire.org From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Feb 17 13:59:29 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A397A3A78B1; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 13:59:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.537 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.537 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.964, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rIunRIyc1kBg; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 13:59:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28BDE3A7375; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 13:59:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nhrtw-000Imt-TF for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 21:57:44 +0000 Received: from [209.85.222.193] (helo=mail-pz0-f193.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nhrtu-000Imi-Gm for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 21:57:42 +0000 Received: by pzk31 with SMTP id 31so5887095pzk.32 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 13:57:42 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.114.214.37 with SMTP id m37mr5498545wag.37.1266443862126; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 13:57:42 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <201002172118.WAA18279@TR-Sys.de> References: <201002172118.WAA18279@TR-Sys.de> Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 13:57:41 -0800 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [dnsext] Draft: WGLC draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-tcp-requirements From: Matthew Dempsky To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Alfred_H=CEnes?= Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 1:18 PM, Alfred H=CEnes wrote: > Such dedicated, special-purpose servers -- entirely independent of > their particular implementation -- serve a rather small population > of clients specifically configured to consult this authority in order > to frequently get data points needed to make policy decisions, isn't it? No, they're used for serving authoritative zones such as zen.spamhaus.org and dynablock.njabl.org. > So these clients would perhaps really appreciate using persistent TCP > connections to that server -- they can easily amortize the connection > set-up overhead over thousands of requests and gain the security > benefits of TCP (in particular improved forgery resilience) vs. UDP. Which DNS clients are you referring to? Most stub resolvers still query these DNS RBLs through a standard DNS recursive resolver (to benefit from caching), so the protocol those clients use to communicate has no bearing on what the authoritative server supports. If you mean the recursive resolver, then are there any recursive resolver implementations that opt to maintain and use a persistent TCP connection to pipeline queries rather than just issue multiple UDP queries in parallel? If such servers don't exist today, I certainly don't see a need to mandate that authoritative servers support their possible existence in the future. > This perspective would make a serious case to implement TCP on such > dedicated servers as well. I'm not convinced, and even if it were, it's not a serious case to *require* these dedicated servers to implement TCP. (Note: none of the authoritative name servers for zen.spamhaus.org or dynablock.njabl.org currently support DNS queries over TCP.) From entmib-archive@lists.ietf.org Wed Feb 17 14:12:17 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 931F73A68AC for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 14:12:17 -0800 (PST) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char C2 hex): From: Approved VIAGRA\302\256 Store ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 14:12:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from 187-49-220-22.artelecom.grupoartelecom.com.br (187-49-220-22.artelecom.grupoartelecom.com.br [187.49.220.22]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 56B803A7BC5 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 14:11:04 -0800 (PST) From: Approved VIAGRA® Store Subject: Electronic Discount Code 76% for dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20100217221112.56B803A7BC5@core3.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 14:11:04 -0800 (PST)
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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Feb 17 14:34:45 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A8BE28C1D6; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 14:34:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.247 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.247 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-3.352, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, J_CHICKENPOX_12=0.6, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VFUfOHkusS2D; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 14:34:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8EFAF3A7DDC; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 14:34:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NhsQ0-000N9x-Bj for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 22:30:52 +0000 Received: from [66.92.146.20] (helo=stora.ogud.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NhsPx-000N7X-9j for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 22:30:49 +0000 Received: from stora.ogud.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by stora.ogud.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o1HMUiRD017192 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 17:30:44 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from namedroppers@stora.ogud.com) Received: (from namedroppers@localhost) by stora.ogud.com (8.14.3/8.14.3/Submit) id o1HMUi8W017191 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 17:30:44 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from namedroppers) Received: from [193.1.169.34] (helo=dakota.ucd.ie) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NhYFJ-000Bk4-CF for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 00:58:29 +0000 Received: from conversion-daemon.dakota.ucd.ie by dakota.ucd.ie (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-2.05 (built Apr 28 2005)) id <0KXY00D01O141300@dakota.ucd.ie> (original mail from Niall.oReilly+ietf@ucd.ie) for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 00:58:27 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [10.0.1.177] (bark.no8.be [83.141.81.52]) by dakota.ucd.ie (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-2.05 (built Apr 28 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0KXY00CUEO1E4600@dakota.ucd.ie>; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 00:58:27 +0000 (GMT) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 00:58:26 +0000 From: Niall.oReilly+ietf@ucd.ie Subject: Re: [dnsext] Draft minutes from interim meeting today In-reply-to: <20100216203626.GN36083@shinkuro.com> To: Andrew Sullivan Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org, "Niall O'Reilly" Message-id: <4B7B3F32.30709@ucd.ie> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=UTF-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <20100216203626.GN36083@shinkuro.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (X11/20090817) X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.67 on 66.92.146.20 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: [ Moderators note: Post was moderated, either because it was posted by a non-subscriber, or because it was over 20K. With the massive amount of spam, it is easy to miss and therefore delete relevant posts by non-subscribers. Please fix your subscription addresses. ] On 16/02/10 20:36, Andrew Sullivan wrote: > Dear colleagues, > > Attached are draft minutes and decisions from today's meeting. > > I'd appreciate it if attendees could review them. If I get no > corrections by Friday (2010-02-19), I assume that I can consider them > final and submit them to the secretariat. I attended by phone, and had some interruptions in connectivity. In particular, I missed the discussion after Paul Vixie's presentation, but managed to return for the summary. Two things in the draft minutes surprised me, and I'ld appreciate clarification, as I may have misunderstood. First was the "scope creep" in applying Vixie's constraints to other solutions than CLONE. As I missed the discussion of his presentation, I need to ask whether the meeting understood that these constraints should apply to all solutions. Second was that, although I believe that I was back in time for the beginning of summary, I can't recall hearing words to the effect that [i]tems 7-9 are inconsistent with Paul Vixie's set of conditions. Was this actually said at the meeting, or is it an obiter dictum from the chair? What I thought I heard was rather that items 7-9 hadn't been discussed in any detail, but hadn't been counted out either. Thanks in advance, and apologies if I'm just wrong. Best regards Niall O'Reilly From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Feb 17 14:50:30 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0BF0D3A7F26; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 14:50:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.019 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.019 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_INFO=1.448, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vKT1Z5G1A5Aj; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 14:50:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB73428C24B; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 14:50:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NhsgE-000PPj-8p for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 22:47:38 +0000 Received: from [208.86.224.201] (helo=mail.yitter.info) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:CAMELLIA256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NhsgB-000PPE-3E for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 22:47:35 +0000 Received: from crankycanuck.ca (unknown [74.198.28.32]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.yitter.info (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 672471ECBC22 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 22:47:30 +0000 (UTC) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 17:47:24 -0500 From: Andrew Sullivan To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] Draft: WGLC draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-tcp-requirements Message-ID: <20100217224722.GC39457@shinkuro.com> References: <4B79D64C.1050702@ogud.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 12:12:41PM -0800, Matthew Dempsky wrote: > I continue to oppose the ridiculous notion that an IETF working group > gets to decide unobservable implementation details. I think that claim is rather strong. Surely the implementation details are in fact observable at least by the operator who wants to turn on the feature. The text as it stands just says what features an implementation needs to offer to operators who choose to use the implementation, if that implementation is going to be said to conform to the text. Note that there are no protocol police. There is nobody who can force any implementation actually to implement a given detail of the protocol. We rely on market forces, contracts, and that sort of thing for the pressure to cause the implementation. There are RFCs that are, bluntly, market failures. Nevertheless, your opposition is noted as a part of this LC. > There's no way > for you to distinguish an authoritative server that supports TCP but > disables it from an authoritative server that does not support TCP, > and so there's no impact on interoperability of allowing both instead > of just one. That argument does not address the reasons, outlined in the draft, why TCP is an important part of DNS servers. I understand you don't accept those arguments, but your rejection would be easier to swallow if you offered an argument why you think those arguments are wrong. Best regards, A -- Andrew Sullivan ajs@shinkuro.com Shinkuro, Inc. From scrabbles741@aerf.ru Wed Feb 17 15:11:42 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F88328C27C for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 15:11:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -57.894 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-57.894 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, DOS_OE_TO_MX=2.75, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, URIBL_BLACK=20, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7CSevkeqTBao for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 15:11:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from av-217-129-140-215.netvisao.pt (av-217-129-140-215.netvisao.pt [217.129.140.215]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD84528C27F for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 15:11:38 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <000d01cab026$c974a0b0$6400a8c0@scrabbles741> From: To: Subject: How about Russian bride? 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------=_NextPart_000_0007_01CAB026.C974A0B0-- From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Feb 17 15:11:59 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C33428C27C; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 15:11:59 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.019 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.019 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_INFO=1.448, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cONi9sna2vyK; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 15:11:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 698E728C282; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 15:11:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nht1K-0002KT-3w for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 23:09:26 +0000 Received: from [208.86.224.201] (helo=mail.yitter.info) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:CAMELLIA256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nht1H-0002Iz-FZ for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 23:09:23 +0000 Received: from crankycanuck.ca (unknown [74.198.28.32]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.yitter.info (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id D49A81ECBC22 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 23:09:17 +0000 (UTC) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 18:09:11 -0500 From: Andrew Sullivan To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: [dnsext] [dwing@cisco.com: [BEHAVE] 2nd WGLC, draft-ietf-behave-dns64-06] Message-ID: <20100217230908.GD39457@shinkuro.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="wac7ysb48OaltWcw" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: --wac7ysb48OaltWcw Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline I'm writing in my capacity as an editor of the named document, and not as DNSEXT Chair. The 1st last call caused practically no reviews. Reviews of this document by people with DNS clue are urgently needed. Please help! I am willing to thank with bevvies in Anaheim if it helps. A -- Andrew Sullivan ajs@shinkuro.com Shinkuro, Inc. --wac7ysb48OaltWcw Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32] verified) by execdsl.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.2.10) with ESMTP id 18431648 for ajs@shinkuro.com; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 11:27:54 -0700 Received-SPF: pass receiver=execdsl.com; client-ip=64.170.98.32; envelope-from=behave-bounces@ietf.org Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3021728C166; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 10:26:25 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: behave@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: behave@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C170928C0DF for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 10:26:24 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.524 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.524 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.075, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bq23S8rq+NTa for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 10:26:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from sj-iport-2.cisco.com (sj-iport-2.cisco.com [171.71.176.71]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F8BA28C186 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 10:26:24 -0800 (PST) Authentication-Results: sj-iport-2.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AhgIAHfEe0urR7H+/2dsb2JhbACHTYESkiN0piuXf4RdBIMV X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.49,492,1262563200"; d="scan'208";a="240684030" Received: from sj-core-2.cisco.com ([171.71.177.254]) by sj-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 17 Feb 2010 18:27:59 +0000 Received: from dwingwxp01 ([10.32.240.197]) by sj-core-2.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o1HIRxax020205; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 18:27:59 GMT From: "Dan Wing" To: Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 10:28:01 -0800 Message-ID: <047501caaffe$f01f5660$cf4a150a@cisco.com> X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3350 Thread-Index: Acqv/u/cXiNWhOEBT4eja+K338Bj8Q== Cc: draft-ietf-behave-dns64@tools.ietf.org Subject: [BEHAVE] 2nd WGLC, draft-ietf-behave-dns64-06 X-BeenThere: behave@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: mailing list of BEHAVE IETF WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: behave-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: behave-bounces@ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 ** We need at least 5 reviewers to tell us this document is ready ** for submission to IESG. Please email behave-chairs@tools.ietf.org ** with a subject line containing the document name, and "ready ** to submit to IESG" or "not ready to submit to IESG" in the ** message body. If not ready to submit, please propose new text. This email starts the 2nd WGLC for draft-ietf-behave-dns64-06, ending in one week (Wednesday, February 24). For reference, the first WGLC was for draft-ietf-behave-v6v4-framework-05. Differences from -05 (first WGLC) and -06 (2nd WGLC), http://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-behave-dns64-06.txt -d _______________________________________________ Behave mailing list Behave@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/behave --wac7ysb48OaltWcw-- From sparsest503@farmterra.ru Wed Feb 17 15:12:18 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F327228C285; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 15:12:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -48.216 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-48.216 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, DOS_OE_TO_MX=2.75, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2=4.395, HELO_DYNAMIC_SPLIT_IP=3.493, HELO_EQ_IP_ADDR=1.119, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RCVD_NUMERIC_HELO=2.067, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.931, URIBL_BLACK=20, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PvdLDRR1DF8s; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 15:12:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from 169.132.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt (169.33.103.87.rev.vodafone.pt [87.103.33.169]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E5BF28C283; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 15:12:16 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <000d01cab026$e32db5f0$6400a8c0@sparsest503> From: To: Subject: Russian queens are waiting. 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------=_NextPart_000_0007_01CAB026.E32DB5F0-- From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Feb 17 15:23:59 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E1EB3A6BF8; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 15:23:59 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.019 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.019 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_INFO=1.448, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vQ8g17NkcrDY; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 15:23:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14C923A6926; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 15:23:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NhtDv-0003xm-4p for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 23:22:27 +0000 Received: from [208.86.224.201] (helo=mail.yitter.info) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:CAMELLIA256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NhtDs-0003xO-PU for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 23:22:24 +0000 Received: from crankycanuck.ca (unknown [74.198.28.32]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.yitter.info (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 1AC921ECBC22 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 23:22:21 +0000 (UTC) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 18:22:16 -0500 From: Andrew Sullivan To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] Draft minutes from interim meeting today Message-ID: <20100217232209.GE39457@shinkuro.com> References: <20100216203626.GN36083@shinkuro.com> <4B7B3F32.30709@ucd.ie> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4B7B3F32.30709@ucd.ie> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: Niall, First, thanks for your careful checking of the minutes! On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 12:58:26AM +0000, Niall.oReilly+ietf@ucd.ie wrote: > First was the "scope creep" in applying Vixie's constraints to other > solutions than CLONE. As I missed the discussion of his > presentation, I need to ask whether the meeting understood that > these constraints should apply to all solutions. Excellent question. That the constraints were to be applied generally to what we were trying to do was indeed what I thought I heard. If people did not intend me to interpret things that way, it would be useful to learn that as soon as possible. I'll leave this in the minutes unchanged regardless, but if people correct my misapprehension, I will add a note to the minutes to the effect that subsequent discussion revealed that the chair, in his usual dozy way, misunderstood the intention of the WG. > Second was that, although I believe that I was back in time for > the beginning of summary, I can't recall hearing words to the effect > that [i]tems 7-9 are inconsistent with Paul Vixie's set of conditions. > Was this actually said at the meeting, or is it an obiter dictum > from the chair? What I thought I heard was rather that items 7-9 > hadn't been discussed in any detail, but hadn't been counted out > either. This is a good point. Olafur actually pointed it out to me after the meeting as an entailment of what the WG appeared to have agreed upon. Highlighting that this emerged later is what the "everyone may not have realised" remark is about. But I think you're right that it doesn't clarify what happened in the meeting. How's this: Items 7-9 are inconsistent with Paul Vixie's set of conditions. The WG seemed to indicate that those conditions were the right ones. At the meeting, the chair noted that items 7-9 had not been discussed, but since they are inconsistent with the apprehended view of the WG, they're not live options. Everyone may not have realised this consequence [note: the chair didn't at the time] , so the WG chairs will treat this entailment as unsettled for the time being. ? > Thanks in advance, and apologies if I'm just wrong. No, you're not wrong. These are excellent questions & why we post minutes as drafts before finalising. Thanks very much! A -- Andrew Sullivan ajs@shinkuro.com Shinkuro, Inc. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Feb 17 15:24:36 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F27403A6BF8; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 15:24:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.627 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.627 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.754, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JagkSBfwbgNT; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 15:24:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22D6E3A6926; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 15:24:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NhtEx-00046Q-84 for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 23:23:31 +0000 Received: from [209.85.216.173] (helo=mail-px0-f173.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NhtEt-000460-Kp for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 23:23:27 +0000 Received: by pxi3 with SMTP id 3so3830836pxi.28 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 15:23:27 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.114.248.33 with SMTP id v33mr1747971wah.166.1266449006935; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 15:23:26 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <20100217224722.GC39457@shinkuro.com> References: <4B79D64C.1050702@ogud.com> <20100217224722.GC39457@shinkuro.com> Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 15:23:26 -0800 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [dnsext] Draft: WGLC draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-tcp-requirements From: Matthew Dempsky To: Andrew Sullivan Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 2:47 PM, Andrew Sullivan wrote: > I think that claim is rather strong. =A0Surely the implementation > details are in fact observable at least by the operator who wants to > turn on the feature. That's irrelevant to the matter of interoperability. >=A0The text as it stands just says what features an > implementation needs to offer to operators who choose to use the > implementation, if that implementation is going to be said to conform > to the text. This I-D is intended for Standards Track, and not Best Community Practices. As such, it should limit itself to matters of interoperability, rather than suggesting feature sets that operators should look for in the implementations they use. > Note that there are no protocol police. Indeed, only protocol vigilantes like rfc-ignorant.org. > Nevertheless, your opposition is noted as a part of this LC. Thank you. >> There's no way >> for you to distinguish an authoritative server that supports TCP but >> disables it from an authoritative server that does not support TCP, >> and so there's no impact on interoperability of allowing both instead >> of just one. > > That argument does not address the reasons, outlined in the draft, why > TCP is an important part of DNS servers. =A0I understand you don't > accept those arguments, but your rejection would be easier to swallow > if you offered an argument why you think those arguments are wrong. I'm sorry, if you could state exactly which argument or arguments you had in mind, I will respond specifically to them. My overall stance is that TCP support for authoritative servers is not universally required for interoperability, and by RFC 2119, the blanket use of the term "MUST" is therefore incorrect. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Feb 17 15:31:27 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38B673A7F34; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 15:31:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.019 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.019 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_INFO=1.448, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KHor5+e+O6-m; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 15:31:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 221253A73B6; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 15:31:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NhtLJ-0004vT-Aj for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 23:30:05 +0000 Received: from [208.86.224.201] (helo=mail.yitter.info) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:CAMELLIA256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NhtLD-0004tn-Ig for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 23:29:59 +0000 Received: from crankycanuck.ca (unknown [74.198.28.32]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.yitter.info (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id DDA661ECBC22 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 23:29:55 +0000 (UTC) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 18:29:52 -0500 From: Andrew Sullivan To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] Collective name for Answer, Authority, and Additional Sections? Message-ID: <20100217232951.GG39457@shinkuro.com> References: <8B8045AE-F838-4599-B46E-80B940195BA2@apple.com> <56802.1266362920@nsa.vix.com> <02BE76EC-39AD-42C1-9016-EFB816B63E2B@apple.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <02BE76EC-39AD-42C1-9016-EFB816B63E2B@apple.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 01:33:58PM -0800, Stuart Cheshire wrote: > Indeed. However, this is for draft-cheshire-dnsext-multicastdns, so the > issue of DNS Update does not apply in the context of that document. Eeeek! Please, don't introduce a general-purpose term that isn't actually general-purpose. It's sure to cause more confusion particularly when it leaks out of our little community into, say, layer 9. Which we all know never happens. I don't like either of these suggestions, but for grins: what about "response sections", and define it precisely? Alternatively, what about inventing some word like "aaasections", or something much more elegant, and defining that precisely? I do think a term for this would be really nice. A -- Andrew Sullivan ajs@shinkuro.com Shinkuro, Inc. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Feb 17 15:33:33 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A044A3A78FD; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 15:33:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.724 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.724 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.125, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0bdNaEM4rrNq; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 15:33:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5F1D3A73B6; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 15:33:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NhtN0-000585-27 for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 23:31:50 +0000 Received: from [2001:4f8:3:bb:230:48ff:fe5a:2f38] (helo=nsa.vix.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:CAMELLIA256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NhtMx-00057n-5y for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 23:31:47 +0000 Received: from nsa.vix.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nsa.vix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1D70A9F1D for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 23:31:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vixie@nsa.vix.com) From: Paul Vixie To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] Draft minutes from interim meeting today In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 17 Feb 2010 18:22:16 EST." <20100217232209.GE39457@shinkuro.com> References: <20100216203626.GN36083@shinkuro.com> <4B7B3F32.30709@ucd.ie> <20100217232209.GE39457@shinkuro.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.1; nil; GNU Emacs 22.2.1 Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 23:31:46 +0000 Message-ID: <14856.1266449506@nsa.vix.com> Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: > Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 18:22:16 -0500 > From: Andrew Sullivan > > Excellent question. That the constraints were to be applied generally > to what we were trying to do was indeed what I thought I heard. If > people did not intend me to interpret things that way, it would be > useful to learn that as soon as possible. I'll leave this in the > minutes unchanged regardless, but if people correct my > misapprehension, I will add a note to the minutes to the effect that > subsequent discussion revealed that the chair, in his usual dozy way, > misunderstood the intention of the WG. the audio was poor. it's easy to imagine people humming to my constraints thinking we were doing so for zone clones even though you thought you'd asked us whether we were ready to adopt my constraints for all solutions. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Feb 17 15:52:59 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0AABB3A7F36; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 15:52:59 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.53 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.53 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.482, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NkgAnC-8t9wh; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 15:52:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 470CC3A7F32; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 15:52:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nhtf0-0007cI-29 for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 23:50:26 +0000 Received: from [192.150.186.11] (helo=fruitcake.ICSI.Berkeley.EDU) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nhtex-0007bl-DU for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 23:50:23 +0000 Received: from [IPv6:::1] (jack.ICSI.Berkeley.EDU [192.150.186.73]) by fruitcake.ICSI.Berkeley.EDU (8.12.11.20060614/8.12.11) with ESMTP id o1HNoKYT027759; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 15:50:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: [dnsext] Draft: WGLC draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-tcp-requirements Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Nicholas Weaver In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 15:50:20 -0800 Cc: Nicholas Weaver , Andrew Sullivan , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <0B15C1BC-8456-46A4-9F45-288C14D43351@icsi.berkeley.edu> References: <4B79D64C.1050702@ogud.com> <20100217224722.GC39457@shinkuro.com> To: Matthew Dempsky X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On Feb 17, 2010, at 3:23 PM, Matthew Dempsky wrote: > On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 2:47 PM, Andrew Sullivan = wrote: >> I think that claim is rather strong. Surely the implementation >> details are in fact observable at least by the operator who wants to >> turn on the feature. >=20 > That's irrelevant to the matter of interoperability. >=20 >> The text as it stands just says what features an >> implementation needs to offer to operators who choose to use the >> implementation, if that implementation is going to be said to conform >> to the text. >=20 > This I-D is intended for Standards Track, and not Best Community > Practices. As such, it should limit itself to matters of > interoperability, rather than suggesting feature sets that operators > should look for in the implementations they use. TCP is needed for interoperability when responses are over 512B, due to = the nature of the Internet being full of middleboxes and firewalls which = put limits on UDP traffic in general (>10% in measurements), and DNS UDP = traffic in particular (>1% in measurements). Yes, it would be great to have a magic wand to make the brokenness go = away, but as this brokenness is reality, it is necessary to work around = it. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Feb 17 16:05:07 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5CE128C28A; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 16:05:06 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.019 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.019 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_INFO=1.448, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XVRufw-hk1XH; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 16:05:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82FA628C181; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 16:05:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NhtrL-0009QU-I8 for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 00:03:11 +0000 Received: from [208.86.224.201] (helo=mail.yitter.info) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:CAMELLIA256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NhtrH-0009Pg-BH for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 00:03:07 +0000 Received: from crankycanuck.ca (unknown [74.198.28.32]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.yitter.info (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 5480D1ECBC24; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 00:03:03 +0000 (UTC) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 19:03:00 -0500 From: Andrew Sullivan To: Paul Vixie Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] Draft minutes from interim meeting today Message-ID: <20100218000258.GL39457@shinkuro.com> References: <20100216203626.GN36083@shinkuro.com> <4B7B3F32.30709@ucd.ie> <20100217232209.GE39457@shinkuro.com> <14856.1266449506@nsa.vix.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <14856.1266449506@nsa.vix.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 11:31:46PM +0000, Paul Vixie wrote: > the audio was poor. it's easy to imagine people humming to my constraints > thinking we were doing so for zone clones even though you thought you'd > asked us whether we were ready to adopt my constraints for all solutions. I fully agree. I don't want to be process-hidebound, but I want both of these things: - the minutes to reflect what actually transpired. - the minutes to include clarification and discussion that came up later. The second is of course not the normal purpose of minutes, but I don't see any value at all in adding yet more places to look things up if we can use the minutes of the meeting as a convenient place to capture what we actually conclude. A -- Andrew Sullivan ajs@shinkuro.com Shinkuro, Inc. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Feb 17 16:07:27 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E9033A7F3E; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 16:07:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.258 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.258 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.763, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Oml5ieRgcFOI; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 16:07:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A21528C28A; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 16:07:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nhtu2-0009mu-AX for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 00:05:58 +0000 Received: from [192.245.12.227] (helo=balder-227.proper.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nhttz-0009mI-UQ for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 00:05:56 +0000 Received: from [10.20.30.158] (75-101-30-90.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net [75.101.30.90]) (authenticated bits=0) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id o1I05qG7013590 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 17 Feb 2010 17:05:53 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from paul.hoffman@vpnc.org) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <4B79D64C.1050702@ogud.com> <20100217224722.GC39457@shinkuro.com> Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 16:05:50 -0800 To: Matthew Dempsky , Andrew Sullivan From: Paul Hoffman Subject: Re: [dnsext] Draft: WGLC draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-tcp-requirements Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: At 3:23 PM -0800 2/17/10, Matthew Dempsky wrote: >On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 2:47 PM, Andrew Sullivan wrote: >> I think that claim is rather strong. Surely the implementation >> details are in fact observable at least by the operator who wants to >> turn on the feature. > >That's irrelevant to the matter of interoperability. That statement is wrong. If an implementation cannot do X, then a user of that implementation cannot interoperate in an environment where X is required. > > The text as it stands just says what features an >> implementation needs to offer to operators who choose to use the >> implementation, if that implementation is going to be said to conform >> to the text. > >This I-D is intended for Standards Track, and not Best Community >Practices. As such, it should limit itself to matters of >interoperability, rather than suggesting feature sets that operators >should look for in the implementations they use. That is a creative interpretation of what a Standards Track RFC should do. It is not supported by current practice in the IETF. > > Note that there are no protocol police. > >Indeed, only protocol vigilantes like rfc-ignorant.org. The "only" is wrong. There are many users (in this case, operators) who want to know whether or not software they are using conforms to a particular RFC. They are not, to use your insult, "protocol vigilantes": they are the people who make the Internet work for end users. If you don't care about them, that's fine, but many of us do. --Paul Hoffman, Director --VPN Consortium From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Feb 17 16:14:21 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5134828C181; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 16:14:21 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.769 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.769 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.250, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_INFO=1.448, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5rEtkbS4DHak; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 16:14:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9048F3A6AD0; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 16:14:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nhu0h-000Ada-Qx for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 00:12:51 +0000 Received: from [208.86.224.201] (helo=mail.yitter.info) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:CAMELLIA256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nhu0f-000Ad7-I1 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 00:12:49 +0000 Received: from crankycanuck.ca (unknown [74.198.28.32]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.yitter.info (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3BD911ECBC22 for ; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 00:12:47 +0000 (UTC) Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 19:12:44 -0500 From: Andrew Sullivan To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] Draft: WGLC draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-tcp-requirements Message-ID: <20100218001243.GM39457@shinkuro.com> References: <4B79D64C.1050702@ogud.com> <20100217224722.GC39457@shinkuro.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: Note to all: I hereby encourage, as moderator, everyone participating in this thread to self-rate-limit, because I think we're in danger of overheating the discussion. On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 03:23:26PM -0800, Matthew Dempsky wrote: > That's irrelevant to the matter of interoperability. Your position is noted for the purposes of the WGLC. That's actually part of the open question before us. Others may disagree with your conclusion. > This I-D is intended for Standards Track, and not Best Community > Practices. As such, it should limit itself to matters of > interoperability, rather than suggesting feature sets that operators > should look for in the implementations they use. And the draft includes an argument about why interoperability is better served if all authority servers _can_ support TCP. What is an open question is whether the WG agrees: that's what the WGLC in effect means. You have registered your disagreement with that claim. It is duly noted. I think it would be good if you thought about limiting your further remarks on this issue, unless you have a new argument on this matter to offer. > I'm sorry, if you could state exactly which argument or arguments you > had in mind, I will respond specifically to them. The arguments in the draft, which try to make the case why TCP is needed. If you seriously read the draft and cannot see in it those arguments, then we may have a serious problem indeed. Please state as much clearly, in that case. This is not the same as seeing the arguments and not agreeing with them because you think they draw wrong conclusions or are otherwise flawed. If you instead feel the latter way, then please state that instead. > My overall stance is that TCP support for authoritative servers is not > universally required for interoperability, and by RFC 2119, the > blanket use of the term "MUST" is therefore incorrect. I cannot accept this interpretation. The 2119 requirement is for interoperating with the protocol as defined by the document, not for interoperating _at all_ with the protocol (since if that were the case, 2119 standards language could never be made stronger). Best, A -- Andrew Sullivan ajs@shinkuro.com Shinkuro, Inc. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Feb 17 16:16:49 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3A2F28C297; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 16:16:48 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.582 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.582 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.709, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 63DIfkSG+UDY; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 16:16:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFE6928C29A; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 16:16:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nhu3G-000BUl-Gn for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 00:15:30 +0000 Received: from [209.85.216.173] (helo=mail-px0-f173.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nhu3E-000BUL-1u for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 00:15:28 +0000 Received: by pxi3 with SMTP id 3so3862653pxi.28 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 16:15:27 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.114.215.8 with SMTP id n8mr5853012wag.212.1266452127356; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 16:15:27 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <0B15C1BC-8456-46A4-9F45-288C14D43351@icsi.berkeley.edu> References: <4B79D64C.1050702@ogud.com> <20100217224722.GC39457@shinkuro.com> <0B15C1BC-8456-46A4-9F45-288C14D43351@icsi.berkeley.edu> Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 16:15:27 -0800 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [dnsext] Draft: WGLC draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-tcp-requirements From: Matthew Dempsky To: Nicholas Weaver Cc: Andrew Sullivan , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 3:50 PM, Nicholas Weaver wrote: > TCP is needed for interoperability when responses are over 512B, Yes, but not all authoritative DNS servers need to send responses that are over 512B, thus blanket requiring all authoritative DNS servers to support TCP is not necessary for interoperability, and as per RFC 2119, using "MUST" to describe that requirement is incorrect. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Feb 17 16:38:58 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56F5D28C1DC; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 16:38:58 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.048 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.048 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vn8yMZqxiXc6; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 16:38:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D600928C2B0; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 16:38:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NhuMs-000ED6-SM for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 00:35:46 +0000 Received: from [193.1.169.37] (helo=cali.ucd.ie) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NhuMq-000ECo-CR for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 00:35:44 +0000 Received: from conversion-daemon.cali.ucd.ie by cali.ucd.ie (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.03 (built Sep 22 2005)) id <0KY000B01HFKBE00@cali.ucd.ie> (original mail from Niall.oReilly@ucd.ie) for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 00:35:43 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [10.0.1.177] (bark.no8.be [83.141.81.52]) by cali.ucd.ie (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.03 (built Sep 22 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0KY0002HOHNCXA00@cali.ucd.ie>; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 00:35:37 +0000 (GMT) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 00:35:36 +0000 From: Niall O'Reilly Subject: Re: [dnsext] Draft minutes from interim meeting today In-reply-to: <20100217232209.GE39457@shinkuro.com> To: Andrew Sullivan Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org, Niall O'Reilly Message-id: <4B7C8B58.9020602@ucd.ie> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=UTF-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <20100216203626.GN36083@shinkuro.com> <4B7B3F32.30709@ucd.ie> <20100217232209.GE39457@shinkuro.com> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (X11/20090817) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On 17/02/10 23:22, Andrew Sullivan wrote: > Niall, > > First, thanks for your careful checking of the minutes! Too kind! > On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 12:58:26AM +0000, Niall.oReilly+ietf@ucd.ie wrote: > >> First was the "scope creep" in applying Vixie's constraints to other >> solutions than CLONE. As I missed the discussion of his >> presentation, I need to ask whether the meeting understood that >> these constraints should apply to all solutions. > > Excellent question. That the constraints were to be applied generally > to what we were trying to do was indeed what I thought I heard. If > people did not intend me to interpret things that way, it would be > useful to learn that as soon as possible. I'll leave this in the > minutes unchanged regardless, but if people correct my > misapprehension, I will add a note to the minutes to the effect that > subsequent discussion revealed that the chair, in his usual dozy way, > misunderstood the intention of the WG. Fine. >> Second was that, although I believe that I was back in time for >> the beginning of summary, I can't recall hearing words to the effect >> that [i]tems 7-9 are inconsistent with Paul Vixie's set of conditions. >> Was this actually said at the meeting, or is it an obiter dictum >> from the chair? What I thought I heard was rather that items 7-9 >> hadn't been discussed in any detail, but hadn't been counted out >> either. > > This is a good point. Olafur actually pointed it out to me after the > meeting as an entailment of what the WG appeared to have agreed upon. > Highlighting that this emerged later is what the "everyone may not > have realised" remark is about. But I think you're right that it > doesn't clarify what happened in the meeting. How's this: > > Items 7-9 are inconsistent with Paul Vixie's set of > conditions. The WG seemed to indicate that those conditions > were the right ones. At the meeting, the chair noted that > items 7-9 had not been discussed, but since they are > inconsistent with the apprehended view of the WG, they're not > live options. Everyone may not have realised this consequence > [note: the chair didn't at the time] , so the WG chairs will > treat this entailment as unsettled for the time being. Works for me. I think there's some horses-for-courses argument to be made about both whether the constraints are uniformly applicable irrespective of how far (zone-cut count) a zone is from the root, and the possibility that CLONE and 7-9 are complementary solutions, each fitting its own part of the problem space. I read "unsettled" as indicating that scope for that discussion is not closed at this stage. That's what I wanted to be clear on, and why I asked. I'll follow up under an appropriate subject header. > ? > >> Thanks in advance, and apologies if I'm just wrong. > > No, you're not wrong. These are excellent questions & why we post > minutes as drafts before finalising. Thanks very much! Again, you're too kind. Thanks for your reassuring and encouraging reply. 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------=_NextPart_000_0007_01CAB03A.043D7A10-- From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Feb 17 17:46:32 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E538328C117; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 17:46:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.891 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.891 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.158, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1, SARE_MILLIONSOF=0.315] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id j3qq-XWGLnXQ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 17:46:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A33183A7E2A; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 17:46:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NhvQP-000NZ3-Jm for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 01:43:29 +0000 Received: from [193.1.169.37] (helo=cali.ucd.ie) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NhvQN-000NYl-5x for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 01:43:27 +0000 Received: from conversion-daemon.cali.ucd.ie by cali.ucd.ie (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.03 (built Sep 22 2005)) id <0KY000901KDKPO00@cali.ucd.ie> (original mail from Niall.oReilly@ucd.ie) for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 01:43:25 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [10.0.1.177] (bark.no8.be [83.141.81.52]) by cali.ucd.ie (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.03 (built Sep 22 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0KY0002I4KSCXA00@cali.ucd.ie>; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 01:43:25 +0000 (GMT) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 01:43:24 +0000 From: Niall O'Reilly Subject: [dnsext] Looking closer at Paul Vixie's proposed constraints, assumptions, and limitations In-reply-to: <4B7C8B58.9020602@ucd.ie> To: Paul Vixie , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Message-id: <4B7C9B3C.1030702@ucd.ie> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=UTF-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT References: <20100216203626.GN36083@shinkuro.com> <4B7B3F32.30709@ucd.ie> <20100217232209.GE39457@shinkuro.com> <4B7C8B58.9020602@ucd.ie> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (X11/20090817) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: Slide 3: Constraints Must not require stubs or recursives to be upgraded, since there are millions of these and the tail is long No comment needed. Must be an Internet Standard, not a proprietary or adhoc extension, to facilitate multivendor operation No comment needed. Must not place any burden on registry, which may be regulated (so, autoinsertion into root zone, no!) See comment to next following point. Authority server operators, protocol implementors, and registrars can accept burdens, since they have incentives, and are few in number Other players have incentives, and may be expected to accept burdens. Certain ccTLD registries appear to have cultural and/or political incentives (one might even say, imperatives). The constraint of not burdening the registry seems to be inappropriate in such a case. Slide 4: Assumptions A registrant can select and direct its nameserver operators in light of new Internet Standards Viewed from the point of view of its parent zone, every registry is a registrant, and so has the same freedom. The exception is the root zone registry, which is a hapless orphan. Implementors and operators can respond to market pressures or not, regarding new feature development No comment needed. A requirement that all of a zone's authority servers be upgraded before that zone can support a new feature like “zone clones” is thus reasonable No comment needed. Not all equivilanced namespaces will have the same parent, e.g., vixie.sf.ca.us vs. vix.com. Nice example! Slide 8: Limitations Only works for leaf zones, since a delegation would have to propagate its CLONE RR to its children (open question: should we allow such propagation or allow grandchildren to search upward for CLONE? Note: this could get very expensive!) IIUC, at least one anticipated IDN TLD will need a cluster of variants at TLD level, will need to offer variant clusters to registrants, and may well have registrants who delegate onward. I wonder whether a solution which accommodates leaf zones only matches the likely use cases. The BNAME idea seems to offer a means of containing the cost for such a use case, as fanout for BNAME is additive rather than multiplicative. Just as DNAME was specified to accommodate "legacy" recursives, so BNAME can be, but avoiding the 0 TTL in synthesis is probably essential. Requires strong trust between registry and registrar/registrant, this is probably a high-fee service that would not be enabled by default It might very well be the default offering where the cultural/political incentive is effectively an imperative. Requires key sharing among zone and its clones, and multiple zone signing events (for DNSSEC) No comment needed. IHTH Niall O'Reilly From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Feb 17 17:57:04 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9319F28C2A4; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 17:57:04 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.518 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.518 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.470, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ioc8Kpve8-8L; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 17:57:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC6C53A72E7; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 17:57:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nhvc3-000Pin-Rl for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 01:55:31 +0000 Received: from [192.150.186.11] (helo=fruitcake.ICSI.Berkeley.EDU) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nhvc1-000PiV-NV for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 01:55:29 +0000 Received: from [IPv6:::1] (jack.ICSI.Berkeley.EDU [192.150.186.73]) by fruitcake.ICSI.Berkeley.EDU (8.12.11.20060614/8.12.11) with ESMTP id o1I1tQLV008175; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 17:55:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: [dnsext] Draft: WGLC draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-tcp-requirements Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Nicholas Weaver In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 17:55:26 -0800 Cc: Nicholas Weaver , Andrew Sullivan , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <522794D4-CC4F-4B1C-BAF8-C642B4B4DCB0@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> References: <4B79D64C.1050702@ogud.com> <20100217224722.GC39457@shinkuro.com> <0B15C1BC-8456-46A4-9F45-288C14D43351@icsi.berkeley.edu> To: Matthew Dempsky X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On Feb 17, 2010, at 4:15 PM, Matthew Dempsky wrote: > On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 3:50 PM, Nicholas Weaver > wrote: >> TCP is needed for interoperability when responses are over 512B, >=20 > Yes, but not all authoritative DNS servers need to send responses that > are over 512B, thus blanket requiring all authoritative DNS servers to > support TCP is not necessary for interoperability, and as per RFC > 2119, using "MUST" to describe that requirement is incorrect. Then would something to the effect of: Unless either an implementation or deployment can know a-priori that all = responses will always be less than 512B, TCP support MUST be included. be acceptable??? If not, why not? From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Feb 17 18:14:43 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C1F428C2B8; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 18:14:42 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.246 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.246 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.751, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id f711yJ0J8-2Q; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 18:14:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE15328C2B0; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 18:14:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nhvsz-0002tI-JB for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 02:13:01 +0000 Received: from [192.245.12.227] (helo=balder-227.proper.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nhvsx-0002qY-5B for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 02:12:59 +0000 Received: from [10.20.30.158] (75-101-30-90.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net [75.101.30.90]) (authenticated bits=0) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id o1I2CtF1021362 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 17 Feb 2010 19:12:57 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from paul.hoffman@vpnc.org) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <522794D4-CC4F-4B1C-BAF8-C642B4B4DCB0@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> References: <4B79D64C.1050702@ogud.com> <20100217224722.GC39457@shinkuro.com> <0B15C1BC-8456-46A4-9F45-288C14D43351@icsi.berkeley.edu> <522794D4-CC4F-4B1C-BAF8-C642B4B4DCB0@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 18:12:54 -0800 To: Nicholas Weaver From: Paul Hoffman Subject: Re: [dnsext] Draft: WGLC draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-tcp-requirements Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: At 5:55 PM -0800 2/17/10, Nicholas Weaver wrote: >On Feb 17, 2010, at 4:15 PM, Matthew Dempsky wrote: > >> On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 3:50 PM, Nicholas Weaver >> wrote: >>> TCP is needed for interoperability when responses are over 512B, >> >> Yes, but not all authoritative DNS servers need to send responses that >> are over 512B, thus blanket requiring all authoritative DNS servers to >> support TCP is not necessary for interoperability, and as per RFC >> 2119, using "MUST" to describe that requirement is incorrect. > >Then would something to the effect of: > >Unless either an implementation or deployment can know a-priori that all responses will always be less than 512B, TCP support MUST be included. > >be acceptable??? > >If not, why not? Because it is confusing. I think Matthew is the only WG member so far making the request; so far, others have been disagreeing with him. A typical reader of the document could not figure out how "an implementation or deployment can know a-priori...". --Paul Hoffman, Director --VPN Consortium From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Feb 17 19:10:21 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F21E328C2BC; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 19:10:20 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.518 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.518 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.081, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3MBZbSWxIKfS; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 19:10:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4AA3928C2AE; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 19:10:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nhwhp-000AdD-UH for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 03:05:33 +0000 Received: from [204.152.189.190] (helo=virtualized.org) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nhwhn-000Acr-PD for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 03:05:31 +0000 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by virtualized.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C06CAB15C9; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 19:05:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at virtualized.org Received: from virtualized.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (trantor.virtualized.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IvjUFSIgz0vO; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 19:05:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.96.18.220] (wlan39-029.mdr.icann.org [192.0.39.29]) by virtualized.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 365D6AB15C2; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 19:05:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: [dnsext] Draft: WGLC draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-tcp-requirements Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: David Conrad In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 19:04:57 -0800 Cc: "namedroppers@ops.ietf.org WG" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <4B79D64C.1050702@ogud.com> <20100217224722.GC39457@shinkuro.com> <0B15C1BC-8456-46A4-9F45-288C14D43351@icsi.berkeley.edu> To: Matthew Dempsky X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On Feb 17, 2010, at 4:15 PM, Matthew Dempsky wrote: > On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 3:50 PM, Nicholas Weaver > wrote: >> TCP is needed for interoperability when responses are over 512B, > Yes, but not all authoritative DNS servers need to send responses that > are over 512B, This isn't a particularly useful argument. It is trivial to come up = with scenarios where any particular subset of any protocol can be = specified as an input constraint, implying any subset of a protocol = would be compliant. If a TCP implementation can be guaranteed to never = receive an RST, would an implementation that doesn't have RST be = considered a full TCP implementation? I don't really get the point of this discussion. The fact rbldns = doesn't support TCP and hence would be considered to support a subset of = modern DNS would have zero impact on anyone. What problem are you = trying to solve? 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Time to buy and be robust. http://img716.imageshack.us/img716/7462/singleterry.swf - Done. --===============2080507926== Content-Type: message/rfc822 MIME-Version: 1.0 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dnsop-request@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: dnsop-request@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5825928C2C5; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 20:30:11 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -82.837 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-82.837 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR=2.426, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LsJQ77bKPkmS; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 20:30:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from pc-13-84-241-201.cm.vtr.net (pc-13-84-241-201.cm.vtr.net [201.241.84.13]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A134028C2C9; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 20:30:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from 201.241.84.13 by smtp01.dom.yahoo.co.jp; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 01:31:35 -0400 Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 01:31:35 -0400 From: dnsext-archive@ietf.org Subject: Explore your naughty side To: Message-ID: <000d01cab053$413c1070$6400a8c0@suffusinga45> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal Look at our discounts on cures, which are the biggest in the industry and remember that fantastic discounts won't last forever! 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Time to buy and be robust. http://img716.imageshack.us/img716/7462/singleterry.swf - Done. --===============0735877610== Content-Type: message/rfc822 MIME-Version: 1.0 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diffserv-interest-request@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: diffserv-interest-request@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5825928C2C5; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 20:30:11 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -82.837 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-82.837 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR=2.426, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LsJQ77bKPkmS; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 20:30:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from pc-13-84-241-201.cm.vtr.net (pc-13-84-241-201.cm.vtr.net [201.241.84.13]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A134028C2C9; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 20:30:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from 201.241.84.13 by smtp01.dom.yahoo.co.jp; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 01:31:35 -0400 Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 01:31:35 -0400 From: dnsext-archive@ietf.org Subject: Explore your naughty side To: Message-ID: <000d01cab053$413c1070$6400a8c0@suffusinga45> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal Look at our discounts on cures, which are the biggest in the industry and remember that fantastic discounts won't last forever! 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Time to buy and be robust. http://img716.imageshack.us/img716/7462/singleterry.swf From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Feb 17 21:33:24 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B8093A7BFD; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 21:33:24 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.543 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.543 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.670, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5FnFsLFlq+4M; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 21:33:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3FB503A7BFC; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 21:33:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NhyxX-00034l-BB for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 05:29:55 +0000 Received: from [209.85.216.179] (helo=mail-px0-f179.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NhyxV-00034W-Gj for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 05:29:53 +0000 Received: by pxi9 with SMTP id 9so5284384pxi.24 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 21:29:53 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.114.215.40 with SMTP id n40mr6141035wag.209.1266470993165; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 21:29:53 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <522794D4-CC4F-4B1C-BAF8-C642B4B4DCB0@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> References: <4B79D64C.1050702@ogud.com> <20100217224722.GC39457@shinkuro.com> <0B15C1BC-8456-46A4-9F45-288C14D43351@icsi.berkeley.edu> <522794D4-CC4F-4B1C-BAF8-C642B4B4DCB0@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 21:29:53 -0800 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [dnsext] Draft: WGLC draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-tcp-requirements From: Matthew Dempsky To: Nicholas Weaver Cc: Andrew Sullivan , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 5:55 PM, Nicholas Weaver wrote: > Then would something to the effect of: > > Unless either an implementation or deployment can know a-priori that all responses will always be less than 512B, TCP support MUST be included. > > be acceptable??? Yes, wording to that effect is acceptable to me. There was already similar wording in the -00 and -01 drafts, but it was removed from -02. I'd be happy to see it returned as well. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Feb 17 22:48:11 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08C8928C0CF; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 22:48:11 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.913 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.913 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.606, BAYES_00=-2.599, MISSING_HEADERS=1.292] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jn8XPaDVXXwV; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 22:48:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 150B43A7D51; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 22:48:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ni07p-000BuK-N3 for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 06:44:37 +0000 Received: from [2001:4f8:3:bb::5] (helo=farside.isc.org) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ni07n-000Btt-AH for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 06:44:35 +0000 Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (drugs.dv.isc.org [IPv6:2001:470:1f00:820:214:22ff:fed9:fbdc]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "drugs.dv.isc.org", Issuer "ISC CA" (not verified)) by farside.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 754FFE60AB for ; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 06:44:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marka@isc.org) Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by drugs.dv.isc.org (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o1I6iVgF044957 for ; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 17:44:31 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from marka@drugs.dv.isc.org) Message-Id: <201002180644.o1I6iVgF044957@drugs.dv.isc.org> Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org From: Mark Andrews References: <20100217230908.GD39457@shinkuro.com> Subject: Re: [dnsext] [dwing@cisco.com: [BEHAVE] 2nd WGLC, draft-ietf-behave-dns64-06] In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 17 Feb 2010 18:09:11 CDT." <20100217230908.GD39457@shinkuro.com> Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 17:44:31 +1100 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: o The TTL field is set to the minimum of the TTL of the original A RR and the SOA RR for the queried domain. (Note that in order to obtain the TTL of the SOA RR, the DNS64 does not need to perform a new query, but it can remember the TTL from the SOA RR in the negative response to the AAAA query.) The SOA record in the negative response to the AAAA query is optional. There are enough broken nameservers that don't respond to SOA queries that it is not worth the effort of performing a SOA query. 600 seconds is a reasonable value to use as an alternative to the negative response's ttl if it is not available. Mark -- Mark Andrews, ISC 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: marka@isc.org From dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Wed Feb 17 22:48:30 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21C0F3A7D51 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 22:48:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.963 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.963 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HELO_DYNAMIC_DHCP=1.398, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR=2.426, HELO_EQ_HU=1.35, HOST_EQ_BROADBND=1.118, HOST_EQ_HU=1.245, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_24=1.552, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_02=0.383, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_FROM_DRUGS=1.666, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_SBL=20, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, URI_HEX=0.368, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZOvbJQZW468H for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 22:48:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from catv-89-135-86-51.catv.broadband.hu (catv-89-135-86-51.catv.broadband.hu [89.135.86.51]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A78893A7D11 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 22:48:27 -0800 (PST) From: "VIAGRA from Pfizer" To: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: dnsext-archive Winter -80% Deals Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <20100218064827.A78893A7D11@core3.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 22:48:27 -0800 (PST) December 2009
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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Feb 17 23:11:44 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 503F13A7B8B; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 23:11:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.71 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.71 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.111, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bLDiFMe1Y4Gl; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 23:11:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E5CC3A79F0; Wed, 17 Feb 2010 23:11:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ni0WL-000F8b-9g for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 07:09:57 +0000 Received: from [2001:4f8:3:bb:230:48ff:fe5a:2f38] (helo=nsa.vix.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:CAMELLIA256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ni0WH-000F7V-Tz for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 07:09:53 +0000 Received: from nsa.vix.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nsa.vix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 890D0A9FAE for ; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 07:09:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vixie@nsa.vix.com) From: Paul Vixie To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] Draft: WGLC draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-tcp-requirements In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 17 Feb 2010 21:29:53 PST." References: <4B79D64C.1050702@ogud.com> <20100217224722.GC39457@shinkuro.com> <0B15C1BC-8456-46A4-9F45-288C14D43351@icsi.berkeley.edu> <522794D4-CC4F-4B1C-BAF8-C642B4B4DCB0@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.1; nil; GNU Emacs 22.2.1 Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 07:09:53 +0000 Message-ID: <33552.1266476993@nsa.vix.com> Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: > Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 21:29:53 -0800 > From: Matthew Dempsky > > On Wed, Feb 17, 2010 at 5:55 PM, Nicholas Weaver > wrote: > > Then would something to the effect of: > > > > Unless either an implementation or deployment can know a-priori that > > all responses will always be less than 512B, TCP support MUST be > > included. > > > > be acceptable??? > > Yes, wording to that effect is acceptable to me. > ... i'd like it to say "be 512B or smaller". there's nothing wrong with 512B. so, this is a "<=" not a "<" comparison. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Thu Feb 18 04:53:40 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D29CA3A7CC3; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 04:53:40 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 2.561 X-Spam-Level: ** X-Spam-Status: No, score=2.561 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.689, BAYES_00=-2.599, CHARSET_FARAWAY_HEADER=3.2, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, HELO_MISMATCH_DE=1.448, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ts9koplhRo4H; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 04:53:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23E133A7C8D; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 04:53:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ni5nO-0007P5-H2 for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 12:47:54 +0000 Received: from [213.178.172.147] (helo=TR-Sys.de) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ni5nH-0007MC-4F for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 12:47:48 +0000 Received: from ZEUS.TR-Sys.de by w. with ESMTP ($Revision: 1.37.109.26 $/16.3.2) id AA134667242; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 13:47:22 +0100 Received: (from ah@localhost) by z.TR-Sys.de (8.9.3 (PHNE_25183)/8.7.3) id NAA20142; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 13:47:21 +0100 (MEZ) From: Alfred =?hp-roman8?B?SM5uZXM=?= Message-Id: <201002181247.NAA20142@TR-Sys.de> Subject: Re: [dnsext] Draft: WGLC draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-tcp-requirements To: matthew@dempsky.org Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 13:47:21 +0100 (MEZ) Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org In-Reply-To: References: <201002172118.WAA18279@TR-Sys.de> <201002172118.WAA18279@TR-Sys.de> X-Mailer: ELM [$Revision: 1.17.214.3 $] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=hp-roman8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: Matthew Dempsky wrote (): >> Such dedicated, special-purpose servers -- entirely independent of >> their particular implementation -- serve a rather small population >> of clients specifically configured to consult this authority in order >> to frequently get data points needed to make policy decisions, isn't it? > > No, they're used for serving authoritative zones such as > zen.spamhaus.org and dynablock.njabl.org. Why "No" ? You confirm that these servers host specialized zones offering a specific service that has nothing to do with host IP address and domain name lookup; they use the DNS as a general purpose database, leveraging the universal support of its query protocol, and of course they are authoritative for this purpose. That's legitimate use of the DNS, but *specialized*, and typically only (medium to large scale) receiving MTA systems will be interested in querying this service. That's what I said in a more abstract manner. > ... (Note: none of the authoritative name servers for > zen.spamhaus.org or dynablock.njabl.org currently support > DNS queries over TCP.) ... and you argue that resolvers don't use TCP for these. Isn't that a typical chicken-and-egg problem? It is not convincing how you argue in circles this way. Only long-standing support of TCP in the servers would have given the 'customers' of these services an opportunity to evaluate the choice of transport in an unbiased manner. Your favorite point would start to become credible it these clients would have had the opportunity to try and nobody were using TCP after several years. But that isn't the case. They did not even have a chance to try. So your argument remains hypothetical, at best. Further, to my best knowledge, customers of DNSBL services prefer operating their own caches (caching end-system resolvers as originally envisioned by RFC 1034/35, or caching resolvers co-located whith the clients) -- that's much more efficient, gives more tight control on caching strategies, and can be operated under locally controlled security measures as compared to making use of an untrusted third-party operated recursive caching resolver; thus I still presume that using persistent TCP connections would be an attractive option for these DNSBL customers, *if* the server implementers had not been neglecting the wisdom spoken 24 years ago in STD 13, as quoted in the subject draft. Matthew, as others have observed, you are the only one opposing to simple, straightforward rules in this document. Nobody will 'urge' the implementers of the dedicated servers you have quoted to claim conformance to the RFC-dns-tcp-requirements which I hope we will be arriving at soon. But their decision will become more visible, to the benefit of prospective users. Stating complicated, vague exceptional rules for a requirement that can easily be fulfilled by implementations -- according to evidence provided on this list -- would open the opportunity for an ongoing endless debate on their exegesis. The whole point of this draft is to stop the endless debate we had over many years. The chartered goal supported by the vast majority of the working group is to send out an inequivocal, clear and simple message -- MUST implement. Period. Kind regards, Alfred Hnes. -- +------------------------+--------------------------------------------+ | TR-Sys Alfred Hoenes | Alfred Hoenes Dipl.-Math., Dipl.-Phys. | | Gerlinger Strasse 12 | Phone: (+49)7156/9635-0, Fax: -18 | | D-71254 Ditzingen | E-Mail: ah@TR-Sys.de | +------------------------+--------------------------------------------+ From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Thu Feb 18 05:20:28 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 366D83A7B45; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 05:20:28 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 2.626 X-Spam-Level: ** X-Spam-Status: No, score=2.626 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.624, BAYES_00=-2.599, CHARSET_FARAWAY_HEADER=3.2, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, HELO_MISMATCH_DE=1.448, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5lZ3+d0hy+Ir; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 05:20:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 212FC3A7AE3; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 05:20:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ni6Gv-000DDZ-Mg for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 13:18:25 +0000 Received: from [213.178.172.147] (helo=TR-Sys.de) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ni6Gr-000DCm-0B for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 13:18:22 +0000 Received: from ZEUS.TR-Sys.de by w. with ESMTP ($Revision: 1.37.109.26 $/16.3.2) id AA134859070; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 14:17:50 +0100 Received: (from ah@localhost) by z.TR-Sys.de (8.9.3 (PHNE_25183)/8.7.3) id OAA20214; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 14:17:48 +0100 (MEZ) From: Alfred =?hp-roman8?B?SM5uZXM=?= Message-Id: <201002181317.OAA20214@TR-Sys.de> Subject: Re: [dnsext] Draft: WGLC draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-tcp-requirements To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org, nweaver@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 14:17:48 +0100 (MEZ) Cc: fernando@gont.com.ar X-Mailer: ELM [$Revision: 1.17.214.3 $] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=hp-roman8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: At Wed, 17 Feb 2010 09:58:37 -0800, Nicholas Weaver wrote: > Overall, I support this draft, ... +1 (My principal support of the draft should have been clear, but better repeat it here!) > ... however, I'd make the following suggestion. > > For section 5: Connection handling. In general, I concur. But I would prefer to not simply strike the "TBD" in ... This document therefore RECOMMENDS that the application-level idle period should be of the order of TBD seconds. ... as others have suggested; "tens of seconds" (or even more) seems to be more appropriate (see below). > I think a fixed timeout is limiting, rather, I'd suggest text > perhaps more like this: >> ... > At the same time, prematurely closing connections increases client > query latency. Since DNS is commonly on the critical path for numerous > network activities, maintaining low latency is a priority. Thus this > document therefore RECOMMENDS that the application-level idle period > should be undefined, as it will vary based on the traffic a particular > server received. > > A server should monitor its current resource utilization and, when > under state pressure, MAY elect to terminate idle connections in order > to free state. Therefore if the server needs to unilaterally close a > dormant TCP connection it MUST be free to do so whenever required. > At the same time, when the idle connections are not consuming > significant resources, the server SHOULD maintain idle connections > in order to reduce protocol latency for subsequent queries. That looks like a valuable recommendation to be made. > > Servers MAY instead use a fixed timeout for idle connections, but > clients MUST NOT rely on such a timeout being consistent. Likewise, > a server MAY limit the number of concurrent connections a client has > outstanding to a number greater than four. If this limit is exceeded, > may terminate an arbitrary set of the client's connections until the > client is below the limit, even if some of the connections have > outstanding queries. I miss an important argument (didn't I spell it out already earlier when the WG discussed adoption of the draft?): The party doing an "active close" of a TCP connection (more precisely: the peer sending a FIN before having received one) has to go through TIME-WAIT state, in order to avoid connection clashes and to mitigate certain security threats. Thus, a server actively closing a TCP connection still has to keep (at least partial) connection state. The TCP MSL (maximum segment lifetime) cannot be assumed to be arbitrarily short in these days; routing changes and handover delays in mobile node connections have increased the real-life MSL significantly above the level that many folks deemed reasonable a decade ago or so. Thus, a server unilaterally closing a TCP connection not only does not immediately free state, it also runs the danger that the client will have another query and retry TCP connection setup during his TIME-WAIT state. Fernando, are you listening? Could you please suggest wordsmithed text to add, or modifications to the proposal from Nicholas, to this end? (BTW: It has been suggested on this thread to add a reference to Fernando's CPNI "Security Assessment of the Internet Protocol"; but most likely the reference should be made to the other CPNI document, "Security Assessment of the Transmisison Control Protocol (TCP)".) > (Rationall: Timeout on idle connections should be dynamic in > practice, so it should be expressed as such. > The server should be allowed to limit the number of outstanding > connections from any particular client, although there should be a > default minimum limit) > Kind regards, Alfred Hnes. -- +------------------------+--------------------------------------------+ | TR-Sys Alfred Hoenes | Alfred Hoenes Dipl.-Math., Dipl.-Phys. | | Gerlinger Strasse 12 | Phone: (+49)7156/9635-0, Fax: -18 | | D-71254 Ditzingen | E-Mail: ah@TR-Sys.de | +------------------------+--------------------------------------------+ From annealsj13@excomindo.com Thu Feb 18 05:23:41 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7830128C1E3; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 05:23:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -89.982 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-89.982 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QX72huADLEJY; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 05:23:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from cuscon145714.tstt.net.tt (cuscon145714.tstt.net.tt [190.59.191.86]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C2A128C12E; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 05:23:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from 190.59.191.86 by excomindo.com; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 09:25:20 -0400 Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 09:25:20 -0400 From: dnsext-archive@ietf.org Subject: Satisfy her with ero-joy To: Message-ID: <000d01cab09d$d1b00bd0$6400a8c0@annealsj13> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal Got obstacles with receiving remedies to your home or office? 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We don't care about prescription, but we care about privacy of delivery and transactions http://img714.imageshack.us/img714/3204/hugghis.swf --===============1994278186==-- From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Thu Feb 18 05:41:41 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 031F43A7B46; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 05:41:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.617 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.617 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.619, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_UK=1.749, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9LcpD9gfgA6W; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 05:41:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79A483A7228; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 05:41:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ni6av-000FwS-Lx for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 13:39:05 +0000 Received: from [213.248.199.23] (helo=mx3.nominet.org.uk) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ni6ar-000Fvd-CK for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 13:39:02 +0000 DomainKey-Signature: s=main.dk.nominet.selector; d=nominet.org.uk; c=nofws; q=dns; h=X-IronPort-AV:Received:In-Reply-To:References:To:Cc: Subject:MIME-Version:X-Mailer:Message-ID:From:Date: X-MIMETrack:Content-Type; b=khu6SnvrwQeH+yEyjCImhzjucDj4KC9py3epT1xiZXUVI9Itva9Kchcn gepjPA33S3IwqYZ5jPznBbdOuUOf/mp/DWBcYaaZ16mywR8KzZDCJOfDa Ac/p/Kg/iqrQQ3I; DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nominet.org.uk; i=Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk; q=dns/txt; s=main.dkim.nominet.selector; t=1266500341; x=1298036341; h=from:sender:reply-to:subject:date:message-id:to:cc: mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:content-id: content-description:resent-date:resent-from:resent-sender: resent-to:resent-cc:resent-message-id:in-reply-to: references:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe: list-subscribe:list-post:list-owner:list-archive; z=From:=20Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk|Subject:=20Re:=20[dnse xt]=20Draft:=20WGLC=20draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-tcp-requireme nts|Date:=20Thu,=2018=20Feb=202010=2013:38:57=20+0000 |Message-ID:=20|To:=20Alfred=20=3D?ISO-8 859-1?Q?H=3DF6nes?=3D=20|Cc:=20fernando@gon t.com.ar,=0D=0A=09namedroppers@ops.ietf.org|MIME-Version: =201.0|In-Reply-To:=20<201002181317.OAA20214@TR-Sys.de> |References:=20<201002181317.OAA20214@TR-Sys.de>; bh=x1t7vO7Ph6H+GQmK+nCaIWnAO5ozEGaQYdwbwnnVbcs=; b=TBrBHPuWGWyxG1CLP16v4G2wjW0p3c7jxOLliqovdqQRpwXx5dObrswA VwfzTfsZOoh1roRLxT5p1IglfugriZGRdOb+dY/afhq6kvLHC7RCEhzN4 va4Kzt6AuHrSa1d; X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.49,497,1262563200"; d="scan'208";a="21836527" Received: from notes1.nominet.org.uk ([213.248.197.128]) by mx3.nominet.org.uk with ESMTP; 18 Feb 2010 13:38:58 +0000 In-Reply-To: <201002181317.OAA20214@TR-Sys.de> References: <201002181317.OAA20214@TR-Sys.de> To: Alfred =?ISO-8859-1?Q?H=F6nes?= Cc: fernando@gont.com.ar, namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] Draft: WGLC draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-tcp-requirements MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 8.5 December 05, 2008 Message-ID: From: Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 13:38:57 +0000 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on notes1/Nominet(Release 7.0.1FP1 | May 25, 2006) at 18/02/2010 01:38:58 PM, Serialize complete at 18/02/2010 01:38:58 PM Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_alternative 004AFA0E802576CE_=" Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: This is a multipart message in MIME format. --=_alternative 004AFA0E802576CE_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > In general, I concur. > > But I would prefer to not simply strike the "TBD" in ... > > This document therefore RECOMMENDS that the application-level idle > period should be of the order of TBD seconds. > > ... as others have suggested; "tens of seconds" (or even more) > seems to be more appropriate (see below). This is straying into "pick a number" territory (which I'm trying to avoid), and covers all the way up to the current 120s. My own view (for what it's worth) is that I really mean seconds (i.e. 2, 4, etc), and not "tens of" seconds. > I miss an important argument (didn't I spell it out already earlier > when the WG discussed adoption of the draft?): In part yes. Your previous concern mostly appeared to be a misunderstanding - that I was trying to reduce the TCP stack timeout. Hence I adjusted the draft to make it clear that it's only the application level timeout that should be reduced. > The party doing an "active close" of a TCP connection (more precisely: > the peer sending a FIN before having received one) has to go through > TIME-WAIT state, in order to avoid connection clashes and to mitigate > certain security threats. Thus, a server actively closing a TCP > connection still has to keep (at least partial) connection state. > The TCP MSL (maximum segment lifetime) cannot be assumed to be > arbitrarily short in these days; routing changes and handover delays > in mobile node connections have increased the real-life MSL > significantly above the level that many folks deemed reasonable > a decade ago or so. > Thus, a server unilaterally closing a TCP connection not only does > not immediately free state, it also runs the danger that the client > will have another query and retry TCP connection setup during his > TIME-WAIT state. Yes, that's correct. However in practise I expect that clients will tear down the connection far more commonly than servers. Mark A - if you're listening - what's BIND's behaviour when acting as a client? Can you confirm my supposition? kind regards, Ray --=_alternative 004AFA0E802576CE_= Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
> In general, I concur.
>
> But I would prefer to not simply strike the "TBD" in ...
>
>    This document therefore RECOMMENDS that the application-level idle
>    period should be of the order of TBD seconds.
>
> ... as others have suggested; "tens of seconds" (or even more)
> seems to be more appropriate (see below).

This is straying into "pick a number" territory (which I'm trying to avoid), and covers all the way up to the current 120s.

My own view (for what it's worth) is that I really mean seconds (i.e. 2, 4, etc), and not "tens of" seconds.

> I miss an important argument (didn't I spell it out already earlier
> when the WG discussed adoption of the draft?):
In part yes.  Your previous concern mostly appeared to be a misunderstanding - that I was trying to reduce the TCP stack timeout.

Hence I adjusted the draft to make it clear that it's only the application level timeout that should be reduced.
 
> The party doing an "active close" of a TCP connection (more precisely:
> the peer sending a FIN before having received one) has to go through
> TIME-WAIT state, in order to avoid connection clashes and to mitigate
> certain security threats.  Thus, a server actively closing a TCP
> connection still has to keep (at least partial) connection state.
> The TCP MSL (maximum segment lifetime) cannot be assumed to be
> arbitrarily short in these days; routing changes and handover delays
> in mobile node connections have increased the real-life MSL
> significantly above the level that many folks deemed reasonable
> a decade ago or so.
> Thus, a server unilaterally closing a TCP connection not only does
> not immediately free state, it also runs the danger that the client
> will have another query and retry TCP connection setup during his
> TIME-WAIT state.

Yes, that's correct.

However in practise I expect that clients will tear down the connection far more commonly than servers.

Mark A - if you're listening - what's BIND's behaviour when acting as a client?  Can you confirm my supposition?

kind regards,

Ray
--=_alternative 004AFA0E802576CE_=-- From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Thu Feb 18 05:58:09 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC9483A7F6F; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 05:58:09 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.894 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.894 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.595, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_UK=1.749, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id n6jP0gGWpeZ2; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 05:58:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92D1B3A7F6D; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 05:58:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ni6oP-000HsJ-7o for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 13:53:01 +0000 Received: from [131.111.8.130] (helo=ppsw-0.csi.cam.ac.uk) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ni6oK-000HqS-Al for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 13:52:56 +0000 X-Cam-AntiVirus: no malware found X-Cam-SpamDetails: not scanned X-Cam-ScannerInfo: http://www.cam.ac.uk/cs/email/scanner/ Received: from hermes-2.csi.cam.ac.uk ([131.111.8.54]:58571) by ppsw-0.csi.cam.ac.uk (smtp.hermes.cam.ac.uk [131.111.8.150]:25) with esmtpa (EXTERNAL:fanf2) id 1Ni6oI-0006d6-2c (Exim 4.70) (return-path ); Thu, 18 Feb 2010 13:52:54 +0000 Received: from fanf2 (helo=localhost) by hermes-2.csi.cam.ac.uk (hermes.cam.ac.uk) with local-esmtp id 1Ni6oI-0006PQ-Pd (Exim 4.67) (return-path ); Thu, 18 Feb 2010 13:52:54 +0000 Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 13:52:54 +0000 From: Tony Finch X-X-Sender: fanf2@hermes-2.csi.cam.ac.uk To: Matthew Dempsky cc: Nicholas Weaver , Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk, namedroppers Subject: Re: [dnsext] Draft: WGLC draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-tcp-requirements In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <4B79D64C.1050702@ogud.com> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (LSU 1167 2008-08-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On Wed, 17 Feb 2010, Matthew Dempsky wrote: > > False. djbdns includes a dedicated RBL DNS server (rbldns) that uses > a database consisting of just a bunch of blacklisted CIDR blocks. It > only ever returns answers with a single A record and/or a single TXT > record less than about 100 bytes long. It knows it will never return > a truncated response. rbldns also doesn't implement most of RFC 1034 and 1035. Does that mean most of the requirements in those documents should be downgraded? Tony. -- f.anthony.n.finch http://dotat.at/ GERMAN BIGHT HUMBER: SOUTHWEST 5 TO 7. MODERATE OR ROUGH. SQUALLY SHOWERS. MODERATE OR GOOD. From stylishlyx4@euro-plast.mourom.elcom.ru Thu Feb 18 06:14:03 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92DA13A7CFD for ; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 06:14:03 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -92.47 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-92.47 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, HELO_EQ_DYNAMIC=1.144, HELO_EQ_IT=0.635, HOST_EQ_IT=1.245, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Mq59n3qrWx0j for ; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 06:14:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from host162-116-dynamic.247-95-r.retail.telecomitalia.it (host123-117-dynamic.46-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it [79.46.117.123]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB75E3A7CBD for ; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 06:14:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from 79.46.117.123 by mourom.elcom.ru; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 15:15:24 +0100 Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 15:15:24 +0100 From: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: Mate like Cazanova To: Message-ID: <000d01cab0a4$cfd1f8d0$6400a8c0@stylishlyx4> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal Overpriced medicaments are sold everywhere; cures on super prices are sold here! 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Choose this Internet-site and you will never overpay http://img683.imageshack.us/img683/2632/nehme.swf From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Thu Feb 18 07:12:45 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0E1328C0FD; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 07:12:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.357 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.357 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.609, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id U6gOtHZBCfBI; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 07:12:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBDFB28C0FB; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 07:12:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ni80T-0005OK-Cm for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 15:09:33 +0000 Received: from [192.150.186.11] (helo=fruitcake.ICSI.Berkeley.EDU) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ni80Q-0005Nz-4r for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 15:09:30 +0000 Received: from [IPv6:::1] (jack.ICSI.Berkeley.EDU [192.150.186.73]) by fruitcake.ICSI.Berkeley.EDU (8.12.11.20060614/8.12.11) with ESMTP id o1IF9NXF026110; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 07:09:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: [dnsext] Draft: WGLC draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-tcp-requirements Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 From: Nicholas Weaver In-Reply-To: <201002181317.OAA20214@TR-Sys.de> Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 07:09:23 -0800 Cc: Nicholas Weaver , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org, fernando@gont.com.ar Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <6B738B7B-4E97-4973-B385-4DA030384649@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> References: <201002181317.OAA20214@TR-Sys.de> To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Alfred_H=CEnes?= X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On Feb 18, 2010, at 5:17 AM, Alfred H=CEnes wrote: >=20 > I miss an important argument (didn't I spell it out already earlier > when the WG discussed adoption of the draft?): >=20 > The party doing an "active close" of a TCP connection (more precisely: > the peer sending a FIN before having received one) has to go through > TIME-WAIT state, in order to avoid connection clashes and to mitigate > certain security threats. Thus, a server actively closing a TCP > connection still has to keep (at least partial) connection state. > The TCP MSL (maximum segment lifetime) cannot be assumed to be > arbitrarily short in these days; routing changes and handover delays > in mobile node connections have increased the real-life MSL > significantly above the level that many folks deemed reasonable > a decade ago or so. > Thus, a server unilaterally closing a TCP connection not only does > not immediately free state, it also runs the danger that the client > will have another query and retry TCP connection setup during his > TIME-WAIT state. A lot (and I mean a LOT) of web servers close idle connections with RST, = just because of this issue: close with a RST and you don't need to keep = any more state at all. I interpreted "unilatteraly close" to indicate that a RST-close would be = acceptable as well, if others don't, the language should probably be = changed to make it clear that if a server wants to close an idle = connection with a RST, its perfectly welcome to, because thats what very = well may be done. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Thu Feb 18 07:37:43 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B5AD3A7ED2; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 07:37:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.424 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.424 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.929, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wTsecHGXA6T0; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 07:37:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC0D73A7B5E; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 07:37:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ni8O3-0008Uc-Vl for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 15:33:55 +0000 Received: from [74.125.82.66] (helo=mail-ww0-f66.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ni8O0-0008Sx-Dr for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 15:33:52 +0000 Received: by wwb17 with SMTP id 17so175414wwb.5 for ; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 07:33:51 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=pa8TbxtcJR1teLu4yxb7pG4NnI6rDgqn6jCReYQZH8U=; b=Wtd1GOlLfYh5A+CoRzbvFyh744WXI+J2Cy0h/poC858cOPAb/9jL3MCL7mTXPykyxs GpXD3vrBoFiOLX1vzTxTPV4yghFqoeuUI/lDyzh6g0plG4dVjfLPW8+FAgYXverwj3i6 pG+dFDjzEEUfFj6jTn1quz+eOq0u/Wny2dEoM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=krgww/5kD9JVth7ewqC3K2FgxOf41d1Y5Z4t8dbT7cXpi5P4eeLsrXcwC/HeQeATQX SfQ0sg4yuB31dvZnd2J8cymCQIkqS8sQjfcNFjEXn1+MMkYspxqYXwmD5cEil/ca6C3Y i48qTUvYfV3djhOkZgn6dwRpaNmYVmeVQQsCQ= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.85.2 with SMTP id t2mr2888865wee.172.1266507230429; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 07:33:50 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <4B79D64C.1050702@ogud.com> References: <4B79D64C.1050702@ogud.com> Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 10:33:50 -0500 Message-ID: <1028365c1002180733w3bf516d6vb017ea9ad59aa1f2@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [dnsext] Draft: WGLC draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-tcp-requirements From: Donald Eastlake To: namedroppers Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: I support MUST implement for TCP. Donald =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D Donald E. Eastlake 3rd 155 Beaver Street Milford, MA 01757 USA d3e3e3@gmail.com On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 6:18 PM, Olafur Gudmundsson wrote: > Dear Colleagues, > > This message starts a Working Group Last Call for "DNS Transport over TCP= - > Implementation Requirements" > http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dnsext/draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-tcp-requirements/ > > This WGLC will conclude on midnight March 31st 2010 UTC. > > This document is aimied at the standards track, if published, will > update RFC1034 and RFC1123. The docoument states in clear modern standard= s > language the TCP requirements for implementations. > > Please send a message to namedroppers that you have reviewed the document > and whether you support it. > > =A0 =A0Olafur > > From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Thu Feb 18 07:39:41 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4AF9C3A7ED1; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 07:39:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.73 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.73 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.432, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_UK=1.749, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rLocbrHjBt8j; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 07:39:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E34FA28C1BD; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 07:39:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ni8SV-00091c-3k for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 15:38:31 +0000 Received: from [213.248.199.23] (helo=mx3.nominet.org.uk) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ni8SR-00090k-67; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 15:38:27 +0000 DomainKey-Signature: s=main.dk.nominet.selector; d=nominet.org.uk; c=nofws; q=dns; h=X-IronPort-AV:Received:In-Reply-To:References:To:Cc: Subject:MIME-Version:X-Mailer:Message-ID:From:Date: X-MIMETrack:Content-Type; b=dQ3AVvJJxQrQ9QluVrfAYcoKRhW2kWePJudZBgeRzjWYpz3xjny3O/na uXOGGn6Hba7U9ZRZv8mPqyzeCED3B5OVTMrseHSZ2DInvBWZmGKooYDj5 lyw/AzVE1reu14h; DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nominet.org.uk; i=Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk; q=dns/txt; s=main.dkim.nominet.selector; t=1266507507; x=1298043507; h=from:sender:reply-to:subject:date:message-id:to:cc: mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:content-id: content-description:resent-date:resent-from:resent-sender: resent-to:resent-cc:resent-message-id:in-reply-to: references:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe: list-subscribe:list-post:list-owner:list-archive; z=From:=20Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk|Subject:=20Re:=20[dnse xt]=20Draft:=20WGLC=20draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-tcp-requireme nts|Date:=20Thu,=2018=20Feb=202010=2015:38:23=20+0000 |Message-ID:=20|To:=20Nicholas=20Weaver =20|Cc:=20Alfred=20=3D?ISO-885 9-1?Q?H=3DCEnes?=3D=20,=0D=0A=09fernando@go nt.com.ar,=0D=0A=09namedroppers@ops.ietf.org,=0D=0A=09Nic holas=20Weaver=20,=0D=0A=09own er-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org|MIME-Version:=201.0 |In-Reply-To:=20<6B738B7B-4E97-4973-B385-4DA030384649@ICS I.Berkeley.EDU>|References:=20<201002181317.OAA20214@TR-S ys.de>=20<6B738B7B-4E97-4973-B385-4DA030384649@ICSI.Berke ley.EDU>; bh=+8xZ5rIud8dcX9Jo+75A0GMD1W3+DjQT6DMW/ki6nRw=; b=1si5wtJmYfOQ/wiMKBQfe9fOqN2fgIjpOZvq6u2Kc8eIkGOmiAzSHhRL DD9bYbKMOPAScg/9a8UmRwtY8tNhqgbRXvKczxAxl0aDDPOtd+2mGdKHT 1NZFbWrE/1YrJij; X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.49,497,1262563200"; d="scan'208";a="21843398" Received: from notes1.nominet.org.uk ([213.248.197.128]) by mx3.nominet.org.uk with ESMTP; 18 Feb 2010 15:38:25 +0000 In-Reply-To: <6B738B7B-4E97-4973-B385-4DA030384649@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> References: <201002181317.OAA20214@TR-Sys.de> <6B738B7B-4E97-4973-B385-4DA030384649@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> To: Nicholas Weaver Cc: Alfred =?ISO-8859-1?Q?H=CEnes?= , fernando@gont.com.ar, namedroppers@ops.ietf.org, Nicholas Weaver , owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] Draft: WGLC draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-tcp-requirements MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 8.5 December 05, 2008 Message-ID: From: Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 15:38:23 +0000 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on notes1/Nominet(Release 7.0.1FP1 | May 25, 2006) at 18/02/2010 03:38:24 PM, Serialize complete at 18/02/2010 03:38:24 PM Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_alternative 0055E9A0802576CE_=" Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: This is a multipart message in MIME format. --=_alternative 0055E9A0802576CE_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > A lot (and I mean a LOT) of web servers close idle connections with > RST, just because of this issue: close with a RST and you don't need > to keep any more state at all. > > I interpreted "unilatteraly close" to indicate that a RST-close > would be acceptable as well, if others don't, the language should > probably be changed to make it clear that if a server wants to close > an idle connection with a RST, its perfectly welcome to, because > thats what very well may be done. Doesn't the existing text cover that (bearing in mind that AFAIK client software can't usually play those tricks, it requires O/S support) "Further recommendations for the tuning of TCP parameters to allow higher throughput or improved resiliency against denial of service attacks are outside the scope of this document." s/parameters/stacks/, if that makes it clearer... Ray --=_alternative 0055E9A0802576CE_= Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
> A lot (and I mean a LOT) of web servers close idle connections with
> RST, just because of this issue: close with a RST and you don't need
> to keep any more state at all.
>
> I interpreted "unilatteraly close" to indicate that a RST-close
> would be acceptable as well, if others don't, the language should
> probably be changed to make it clear that if a server wants to close
> an idle connection with a RST, its perfectly welcome to, because
> thats what very well may be done.
Doesn't the existing text cover that (bearing in mind that AFAIK client software can't usually play those tricks, it requires O/S support)

"Further recommendations for the tuning of TCP parameters to allow
   higher throughput or improved resiliency against denial of service
   attacks are outside the scope of this document."

s/parameters/stacks/, if that makes it clearer...

Ray

--=_alternative 0055E9A0802576CE_=-- From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Thu Feb 18 08:35:01 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A93D3A7F79; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 08:35:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.100, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4ahrkTdYTuQy; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 08:35:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BE273A7063; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 08:35:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ni9Hu-000G3r-7U for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 16:31:38 +0000 Received: from [2001:4f8:3:bb:230:48ff:fe5a:2f38] (helo=nsa.vix.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:CAMELLIA256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ni9Hr-000G3I-A0 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 16:31:35 +0000 Received: from nsa.vix.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nsa.vix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F01C3AA04D for ; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 16:31:34 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vixie@nsa.vix.com) From: Paul Vixie To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] Draft: WGLC draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-tcp-requirements In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 18 Feb 2010 07:09:23 PST." <6B738B7B-4E97-4973-B385-4DA030384649@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> References: <201002181317.OAA20214@TR-Sys.de> <6B738B7B-4E97-4973-B385-4DA030384649@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.1; nil; GNU Emacs 22.2.1 Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 16:31:34 +0000 Message-ID: <59243.1266510694@nsa.vix.com> Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: > From: Nicholas Weaver > Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 07:09:23 -0800 > > I interpreted "unilatteraly close" to indicate that a RST-close would be > acceptable as well, if others don't, the language should probably be > changed to make it clear that if a server wants to close an idle > connection with a RST, its perfectly welcome to, because thats what very > well may be done. any server-initiated close that isn't FIN or isn't timeout-based would be a protocol change not a clarification, and subject to stronger review here. for example, folks have said that RST-initiated close based on the number of open connections would make TCP safe for busy nameservers. i don't agree, at present, but my mind is available for further study. 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Inevitably, Vertu can only make such phones in very limited numbers: each one is rare, precious and highly exclusive. http://bobbin9181.spaces.live.com From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Thu Feb 18 10:11:30 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 332493A7FE3; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 10:11:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 2.686 X-Spam-Level: ** X-Spam-Status: No, score=2.686 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.564, BAYES_00=-2.599, CHARSET_FARAWAY_HEADER=3.2, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, HELO_MISMATCH_DE=1.448, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0hVQNm+8nOkt; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 10:11:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9BD13A7FE1; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 10:11:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NiAlk-0003CQ-Fl for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 18:06:32 +0000 Received: from [213.178.172.147] (helo=TR-Sys.de) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NiAlh-0003C6-9y for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 18:06:30 +0000 Received: from ZEUS.TR-Sys.de by w. with ESMTP ($Revision: 1.37.109.26 $/16.3.2) id AA136376353; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 19:05:53 +0100 Received: (from ah@localhost) by z.TR-Sys.de (8.9.3 (PHNE_25183)/8.7.3) id TAA21024; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 19:05:52 +0100 (MEZ) From: Alfred =?hp-roman8?B?SM5uZXM=?= Message-Id: <201002181805.TAA21024@TR-Sys.de> Subject: Re: [dnsext] Draft: WGLC draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-tcp-requirements To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org, vixie@isc.org Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 19:05:51 +0100 (MEZ) X-Mailer: ELM [$Revision: 1.17.214.3 $] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=hp-roman8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: Paul Vixie wrote: > any server-initiated close that isn't FIN or isn't timeout-based > would be a protocol change not a clarification, ... +1 In particular: a protocol change for TCP, not DNS ! > ... and subject to stronger review here. Not only *here*, go through the purgatory of TCPM! :-) > for example, folks have said that RST-initiated close based on the > number of open connections would make TCP safe for busy nameservers. > i don't agree, at present, but my mind is available for further study. +1 Misconception of RST unfortunately is widespread. Some explanations (only a sketch!) might help to inform the uninitiated: Who's in doubt about the purpose of RST: please visit Section 3.4 of RFC 793. RST, per the standard, is only sent in response to an inbound TCP segment that the recipient cannot handle due to lack of matching connection state, and to indicate to the sender of that segment that there's something seriously wrong. RST is never to be sent spontaneously, since that could only happen if the sender has (full) connection state. Roughly speaking, two conditions exist for RST to be sent, per RFC 793: a) During connection setup (connection not yet established!), when the recipient of a segment can derive from the lack of SYN that the peer is out of synch in the state machines (old duplicate connection problem); b) If the recipient has *no* connection state (unless it maintains a passive OPEN -- he is "listening" on the destination port -- and the inbound segment is a pure SYN segment). These rules are purposely crafted to exclude states incurring the risk of with potential race conditions related to packets in the network, in these case delays are inserted by the TCP state machines to allow delayed packets to leave the network (TIME-WAIT state, in particular). RFC 793 (on page 36) clearly says: | Reset Generation | | As a general rule, reset (RST) must be sent whenever a segment arrives | which apparently is not intended for the current connection. A reset | must not be sent if it is not clear that this is the case. Note that the text predates RFC 2119, and all normative language conceptionally needs to be upcased in order to arrive at the contemporary IETF style. BCP 60, RFC 3360, addresses another kind of abuse of RST; listeners to this list, in particular implementers, might be interested in Sally Floyd's presentation of the history and purpose of RST contained in that RFC. Kind regards, Alfred. -- +------------------------+--------------------------------------------+ | TR-Sys Alfred Hoenes | Alfred Hoenes Dipl.-Math., Dipl.-Phys. | | Gerlinger Strasse 12 | Phone: (+49)7156/9635-0, Fax: -18 | | D-71254 Ditzingen | E-Mail: ah@TR-Sys.de | +------------------------+--------------------------------------------+ From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Thu Feb 18 10:39:07 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 214193A7BB3; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 10:39:07 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.078 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.078 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.641, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_NET=0.611, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2Jk72PdeHjQP; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 10:39:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CB9E3A797A; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 10:39:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NiBE5-0006XD-TY for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 18:35:49 +0000 Received: from [201.216.232.80] (helo=smtp1.xmundo.net) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NiBE3-0006WW-25 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 18:35:47 +0000 Received: from venus.xmundo.net (venus.xmundo.net [201.216.232.56]) by smtp1.xmundo.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D95786B6790; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 15:35:47 -0300 (ART) Received: from [192.168.0.100] (129-130-17-190.fibertel.com.ar [190.17.130.129]) (authenticated bits=0) by venus.xmundo.net (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id o1IIZd7T026462; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 15:35:42 -0300 Message-ID: <4B7D887C.3070402@gont.com.ar> Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 15:35:40 -0300 From: Fernando Gont User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Windows/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org CC: ray.bellis@nominet.org.uk Subject: [dnsext] WGLC comments on draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-tcp-requirements-02 X-Enigmail-Version: 0.96.0 OpenPGP: id=D076FFF1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH authentication, not delayed by milter-greylist-3.0 (venus.xmundo.net [201.216.232.56]); Thu, 18 Feb 2010 15:35:47 -0300 (ART) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: Hi, Here are my comments on the aforementioned I-D: **** Technical **** Section 1: > However, some implementors have taken the text quoted above to mean > that TCP support is an optional feature of the DNS protocol. To some extent, that makes it "optional" if "there's a valid reason". It would be mandatory only if it were a "MUST". Section 5: > Therefore if the server needs to unilaterally > close a dormant TCP connection it MUST be free to do so whenever > required. While I understand where you're going, the phrasing sounds weird. I'd phrase it like "Servers MAY unilaterally close a dormant TCP connection..." Section 5: > To mitigate the risk of unintentional server overload DNS clients > MUST take care to minimize the number of concurrent TCP connections > made to any individual server. Same here. I'd rephrase it to something like "To mitigate the risk of unintentional server overload DNS clients SHOULD limit the number of concurrent TCP connections made to any individual server". Note that not only I rephrased the text, but I also s/MUST/SHOULD/ Anyway, I think you should make the same type of statement for *servers*. I'd argue that that would be even more important that requiring *clients* to limit the number of concurrent connections. Section 5: As suggested by others (I think), you should probably stress that the TCP endpoint actively closing the connection is the one that remains in the TIME-WAIT state. So I'd argue that DNS servers should wait for clients to close their connections, and if they get tired of waiting for them to do so, they should probably ABORT (i.e., RST) the corresponding connections. Section 7 (security Considerations): The higher risk is real. Put it simple: the more machinery you add to something, the higher the chances that "something may go wrong". And TCP in particular is complex. Also, the more critical infrastructure (such as the DNS) depends on TCP, the higher the chances that TCP will be attacked. In the same section, you note: > Whilst there is a theoretically higher risk of such attacks against > TCP-enabled servers, techniques for the mitigation of DoS attacks at > the network level have improved substantially since DNS was first > designed. You're talking about "DoS attacks at the network-level", and I may agree. But you should be discussing *TCP* (*transport* layer), on which there has not been that much progress (for instance, we publish the CPNI TCP paper in 2009). Vectors such as "Sockstress" etc should give a hint that things are not as good as they should be. At the risk of sounding our own horn (although this was already proposed by others), I'd suggest to reference CPNI's "Security Assessment of the Transmission Control Protocol (TCP)", and also include its URL: http://www.cpni.gov.uk/Docs/tn-03-09-security-assessment-TCP.pdf **** Nits **** Section 3: > In the absence of EDNS0 (see below) the normal behaviour of any DNS > server needing to send a UDP response that exceeds that 512 byte > limit is for the server to truncate the response so that it fits I'd say "needing to send a DNS response that would exceed the UDP 512-byte limit" or the like. (i.e. there's no request/response udp-wise). (lack of section number): You should probably add an "Acknowledgements" section. It seems that quite a few people has discussed this document on the mailing list. This would not only ack their contributions, but would also help the reader to answer himself the question "who else reviewed this document?" Thanks! Kind regards, -- Fernando Gont e-mail: fernando@gont.com.ar || fgont@acm.org PGP Fingerprint: 7809 84F5 322E 45C7 F1C9 3945 96EE A9EF D076 FFF1 From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Thu Feb 18 11:05:36 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0613728C0E9; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 11:05:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.058 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.058 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.621, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_NET=0.611, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PQBC6+uroSnr; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 11:05:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3867C3A7D6A; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 11:05:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NiBfO-0009wm-Lg for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 19:04:02 +0000 Received: from [201.216.232.80] (helo=smtp1.xmundo.net) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NiBfM-0009wN-9P for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 19:04:00 +0000 Received: from venus.xmundo.net (venus.xmundo.net [201.216.232.56]) by smtp1.xmundo.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F41F6B674C; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 16:04:01 -0300 (ART) Received: from [192.168.0.100] (129-130-17-190.fibertel.com.ar [190.17.130.129]) (authenticated bits=0) by venus.xmundo.net (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id o1IJ3tlY013242; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 16:03:56 -0300 Message-ID: <4B7D8F1C.4020205@gont.com.ar> Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 16:03:56 -0300 From: Fernando Gont User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Windows/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nicholas Weaver CC: namedroppers Subject: Re: [dnsext] Draft: WGLC draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-tcp-requirements References: <4B79D64C.1050702@ogud.com> <3162788D-3BC8-488B-9FA2-3C2202E66294@rfc1035.com> <20100217123143.GA22282@vacation.karoshi.com.> <628928FF-E372-4656-92DF-D37EBA3D3207@rfc1035.com> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 0.96.0 OpenPGP: id=D076FFF1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH authentication, not delayed by milter-greylist-3.0 (venus.xmundo.net [201.216.232.56]); Thu, 18 Feb 2010 16:04:00 -0300 (ART) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: Nicholas Weaver wrote: > (Rationall: Timeout on idle connections should be dynamic in > practice, so it should be expressed as such. The server should be > allowed to limit the number of outstanding connections from any > particular client, although there should be a default minimum limit) +1 Kind regards, -- Fernando Gont e-mail: fernando@gont.com.ar || fgont@acm.org PGP Fingerprint: 7809 84F5 322E 45C7 F1C9 3945 96EE A9EF D076 FFF1 From simpsondb4@tarifatravelservices.com Thu Feb 18 11:05:37 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3E493A7D6A for ; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 11:05:37 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -49.354 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-49.354 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-19.014, BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2=4.395, HELO_EQ_BR=0.955, HELO_EQ_DYNAMIC=1.144, HOST_EQ_BR=1.295, HTML_FONT_FACE_BAD=0.884, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, PLING_QUERY=1.39, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.931, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BmjzhJAazWS3 for ; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 11:05:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from 189-015-149-179.xd-dynamic.ctbcnetsuper.com.br (189-015-149-179.xd-dynamic.ctbcnetsuper.com.br [189.15.149.179]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3FBF28C16F for ; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 11:05:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from 189.15.149.179 by mx01.dns-servicios.com; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 16:06:50 -0300 Message-ID: <000d01cab0cd$865349b0$6400a8c0@simpsondb4> From: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org To: Subject: You remember that day at the beach? 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------=_NextPart_000_0007_01CAB0CD.865349B0-- From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Thu Feb 18 11:21:26 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20B573A7D7B; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 11:21:26 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.039 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.039 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.602, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_NET=0.611, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 26Pjiwjs+3YV; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 11:21:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F7DA3A7B46; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 11:21:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NiBtq-000Bv2-Qg for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 19:18:58 +0000 Received: from [201.216.232.80] (helo=smtp1.xmundo.net) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NiBto-000BuQ-J5 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 19:18:56 +0000 Received: from venus.xmundo.net (venus.xmundo.net [201.216.232.56]) by smtp1.xmundo.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C30EA6B677E; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 16:18:57 -0300 (ART) Received: from [192.168.0.100] (129-130-17-190.fibertel.com.ar [190.17.130.129]) (authenticated bits=0) by venus.xmundo.net (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id o1IJIpOv017736; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 16:18:52 -0300 Message-ID: <4B7D929C.70901@gont.com.ar> Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 16:18:52 -0300 From: Fernando Gont User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Windows/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Paul Vixie CC: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] Draft: WGLC draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-tcp-requirements References: <201002181317.OAA20214@TR-Sys.de> <6B738B7B-4E97-4973-B385-4DA030384649@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> <59243.1266510694@nsa.vix.com> In-Reply-To: <59243.1266510694@nsa.vix.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.96.0 OpenPGP: id=D076FFF1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH authentication, not delayed by milter-greylist-3.0 (venus.xmundo.net [201.216.232.56]); Thu, 18 Feb 2010 16:18:56 -0300 (ART) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: Paul Vixie wrote: > any server-initiated close that isn't FIN or isn't timeout-based would be a > protocol change not a clarification, and subject to stronger review here. I disagree. Terminating a connection with an RST is an ABORT procedure call, already specified in RFC 793 for the "abstract" TCP API. Thanks, -- Fernando Gont e-mail: fernando@gont.com.ar || fgont@acm.org PGP Fingerprint: 7809 84F5 322E 45C7 F1C9 3945 96EE A9EF D076 FFF1 From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Thu Feb 18 11:25:48 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1318C3A7EED; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 11:25:48 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.69 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.69 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.091, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BCvhO-y9VPV5; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 11:25:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32AE73A7D92; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 11:25:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NiBzK-000CcJ-2U for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 19:24:38 +0000 Received: from [2001:4f8:3:bb:230:48ff:fe5a:2f38] (helo=nsa.vix.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:CAMELLIA256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NiBzH-000Cbz-GM for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 19:24:35 +0000 Received: from nsa.vix.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nsa.vix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36C2AAA0A6 for ; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 19:24:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vixie@nsa.vix.com) From: Paul Vixie To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] Draft: WGLC draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-tcp-requirements In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 18 Feb 2010 16:18:52 -0300." <4B7D929C.70901@gont.com.ar> References: <201002181317.OAA20214@TR-Sys.de> <6B738B7B-4E97-4973-B385-4DA030384649@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> <59243.1266510694@nsa.vix.com> <4B7D929C.70901@gont.com.ar> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.1; nil; GNU Emacs 22.2.1 Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 19:24:35 +0000 Message-ID: <73980.1266521075@nsa.vix.com> Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: > Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 16:18:52 -0300 > From: Fernando Gont > > > any server-initiated close that isn't FIN or isn't timeout-based would be a > > protocol change not a clarification, and subject to stronger review here. > > I disagree. Terminating a connection with an RST is an ABORT procedure > call, already specified in RFC 793 for the "abstract" TCP API. current client expectations are that when this occurs it is an error worthy of syslog. i'm not saying that RST isn't defined, i'm saying that using it this way (server side connection pool management for non-timeout reasons) is a protocol change for TCP/53, and is not a clarification of the DNS standard. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Thu Feb 18 12:02:41 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 490ED3A8044; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 12:02:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.022 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.022 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.585, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_NET=0.611, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LusoDzberdO9; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 12:02:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 624C33A7EFA; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 12:02:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NiCXp-000HcR-FL for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 20:00:17 +0000 Received: from [201.216.232.80] (helo=smtp1.xmundo.net) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NiCXn-000Hc8-Cs for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 20:00:15 +0000 Received: from venus.xmundo.net (venus.xmundo.net [201.216.232.56]) by smtp1.xmundo.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6BFA6B6760; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 17:00:16 -0300 (ART) Received: from [192.168.0.100] (129-130-17-190.fibertel.com.ar [190.17.130.129]) (authenticated bits=0) by venus.xmundo.net (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id o1IK0BTg012932; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 17:00:12 -0300 Message-ID: <4B7D9C4C.9050104@gont.com.ar> Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 17:00:12 -0300 From: Fernando Gont User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Windows/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Paul Vixie CC: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] Draft: WGLC draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-tcp-requirements References: <201002181317.OAA20214@TR-Sys.de> <6B738B7B-4E97-4973-B385-4DA030384649@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> <59243.1266510694@nsa.vix.com> <4B7D929C.70901@gont.com.ar> <73980.1266521075@nsa.vix.com> In-Reply-To: <73980.1266521075@nsa.vix.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.96.0 OpenPGP: id=D076FFF1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH authentication, not delayed by milter-greylist-3.0 (venus.xmundo.net [201.216.232.56]); Thu, 18 Feb 2010 17:00:16 -0300 (ART) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: Hello, Paul, >>> any server-initiated close that isn't FIN or isn't timeout-based would be a >>> protocol change not a clarification, and subject to stronger review here. >> I disagree. Terminating a connection with an RST is an ABORT procedure >> call, already specified in RFC 793 for the "abstract" TCP API. > > current client expectations are that when this occurs it is an error worthy > of syslog. i'm not saying that RST isn't defined, i'm saying that using it > this way (server side connection pool management for non-timeout reasons) is > a protocol change for TCP/53, and is not a clarification of the DNS standard. If you're going to tear down connections because you're running out of resources, then it doesn't make sense to get into yet another resource-intensive operation such as the TCP "graceful close" (i.e., FIN exchange). I agree that this would not be a "clarification". But I don't think it would make sense to recommend servers to close connections when they are running out of resources without giving them a hint on how to do it properly. If they just close() the connection, they run the risk of sockstress-like attacks we all know about. Thanks, -- Fernando Gont e-mail: fernando@gont.com.ar || fgont@acm.org PGP Fingerprint: 7809 84F5 322E 45C7 F1C9 3945 96EE A9EF D076 FFF1 From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Thu Feb 18 12:24:22 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E8EB3A7F00; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 12:24:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.522 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.522 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.922, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_INFO=1.448, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oG0VGIAk8Yuv; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 12:24:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89FCC3A7D8A; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 12:24:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NiCsc-000LKG-EG for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 20:21:46 +0000 Received: from [208.86.224.201] (helo=mail.yitter.info) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:CAMELLIA256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NiCsa-000LJd-3o for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 20:21:44 +0000 Received: from crankycanuck.ca (69-196-144-230.dsl.teksavvy.com [69.196.144.230]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.yitter.info (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 9D3AF1ECBC22 for ; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 20:21:42 +0000 (UTC) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 15:21:41 -0500 From: Andrew Sullivan To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] Draft: WGLC draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-tcp-requirements Message-ID: <20100218202140.GM40337@shinkuro.com> References: <201002181317.OAA20214@TR-Sys.de> <6B738B7B-4E97-4973-B385-4DA030384649@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> <59243.1266510694@nsa.vix.com> <4B7D929C.70901@gont.com.ar> <73980.1266521075@nsa.vix.com> <4B7D9C4C.9050104@gont.com.ar> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4B7D9C4C.9050104@gont.com.ar> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: I can't decide whether this is the sort of procedural issue for which a chair is useful, or if this is still a technical point about the protocol (in which case I need no hat). You can say I'm hat in hand, I guess. On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 05:00:12PM -0300, Fernando Gont wrote: > I agree that this would not be a "clarification". But I don't think it > would make sense to recommend servers to close connections when they are > running out of resources without giving them a hint on how to do it > properly. If they just close() the connection, they run the risk of > sockstress-like attacks we all know about. I think Paul's point is that, if the document is going to say that, it is in fact a modification of the protocol, and requires careful study of what happens if one actually implements such behaviour in widely-used servers. So far, the document doesn't actually make that sort of change to the protocol: it merely says, "You really do need TCP" and not, "Not only do you need TCP, but you need to be able to break TCP connections in a way nobody does today." Because of the difference in effect on the protocol, it seems to me that a document suggesting another manner for closing TCP connections other than close() could easily be separated from the draft under discussion. Such a document would clearly be a standalone one that updated a specific part of STD13. Thoughts? (Volunteers?) Best regards, A -- Andrew Sullivan ajs@shinkuro.com Shinkuro, Inc. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Thu Feb 18 12:37:06 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E20973A7B89; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 12:37:06 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.855 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.855 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.718, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_NET=0.611, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nUbqxD4RtjcC; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 12:37:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EAF413A7F0A; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 12:37:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NiD61-000NYu-Vr for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 20:35:37 +0000 Received: from [201.216.232.80] (helo=smtp1.xmundo.net) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NiD5z-000NY8-3c for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 20:35:35 +0000 Received: from venus.xmundo.net (venus.xmundo.net [201.216.232.56]) by smtp1.xmundo.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCF2B6B67AA; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 17:35:36 -0300 (ART) Received: from [192.168.0.100] (129-130-17-190.fibertel.com.ar [190.17.130.129]) (authenticated bits=0) by venus.xmundo.net (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id o1IKZUgo032446; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 17:35:31 -0300 Message-ID: <4B7DA491.2080302@gont.com.ar> Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 17:35:29 -0300 From: Fernando Gont User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Windows/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: =?UTF-8?B?QWxmcmVkIO+/vQ==?= CC: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org, vixie@isc.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] Draft: WGLC draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-tcp-requirements References: <201002181805.TAA21024@TR-Sys.de> In-Reply-To: <201002181805.TAA21024@TR-Sys.de> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.96.0 OpenPGP: id=D076FFF1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH authentication, not delayed by milter-greylist-3.0 (venus.xmundo.net [201.216.232.56]); Thu, 18 Feb 2010 17:35:36 -0300 (ART) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: Hi, As is usually the case, Alfred is right with his analysis (which is not a surprise coming from one of the few human-beings alive having read all or most the entire RFC series! :-) ). However, there seems to be ambiguity/contradiction in RFC 793 between all the text that Alfred quoted, and the description of the ABORT call. So I believe that spec-wise, it'd be within the spec to tear down connections by issuing an ABORT procedure call. There are other instances of RST generation (kindly pointed out by Alfred off-list, and described in the CPNI TCP paper) that clearly are outdated (e.g., RFC 793 mandates generation of an RST if the security level, or compartment, or precedence doesn't much that of the connection). Clearly, the state of affairs of TCP spec-wise is not what one would expect. There's quite a bit that is missing, and quite a bit does is outdated. -- Not to mention the stuff that is buried deep into the document, and that does not respect today's principle of least surprise (as the aforementioned security level/precedence issue above). Thanks, Fernando Alfred � wrote: > Paul Vixie wrote: > >> any server-initiated close that isn't FIN or isn't timeout-based >> would be a protocol change not a clarification, ... > > +1 > > In particular: a protocol change for TCP, not DNS ! > >> ... and subject to stronger review here. > > Not only *here*, go through the purgatory of TCPM! :-) > > >> for example, folks have said that RST-initiated close based on the >> number of open connections would make TCP safe for busy nameservers. >> i don't agree, at present, but my mind is available for further study. > > +1 > > > Misconception of RST unfortunately is widespread. > > Some explanations (only a sketch!) might help to inform the uninitiated: > > Who's in doubt about the purpose of RST: please visit Section 3.4 > of RFC 793. > > RST, per the standard, is only sent in response to an inbound TCP > segment that the recipient cannot handle due to lack of matching > connection state, and to indicate to the sender of that segment > that there's something seriously wrong. > RST is never to be sent spontaneously, since that could only happen > if the sender has (full) connection state. > > Roughly speaking, two conditions exist for RST to be sent, per RFC 793: > > a) During connection setup (connection not yet established!), > when the recipient of a segment can derive from the lack of > SYN that the peer is out of synch in the state machines > (old duplicate connection problem); > > b) If the recipient has *no* connection state (unless it maintains > a passive OPEN -- he is "listening" on the destination port -- > and the inbound segment is a pure SYN segment). > > These rules are purposely crafted to exclude states incurring the risk > of with potential race conditions related to packets in the network, > in these case delays are inserted by the TCP state machines to allow > delayed packets to leave the network (TIME-WAIT state, in particular). > > RFC 793 (on page 36) clearly says: > > | Reset Generation > | > | As a general rule, reset (RST) must be sent whenever a segment arrives > | which apparently is not intended for the current connection. A reset > | must not be sent if it is not clear that this is the case. > > Note that the text predates RFC 2119, and all normative language > conceptionally needs to be upcased in order to arrive at the > contemporary IETF style. > > > BCP 60, RFC 3360, addresses another kind of abuse of RST; listeners > to this list, in particular implementers, might be interested in > Sally Floyd's presentation of the history and purpose of RST > contained in that RFC. > > > Kind regards, > Alfred. > -- Fernando Gont e-mail: fernando@gont.com.ar || fgont@acm.org PGP Fingerprint: 7809 84F5 322E 45C7 F1C9 3945 96EE A9EF D076 FFF1 From psychicallyx3@remontvody.com Thu Feb 18 12:44:21 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 693AB28C0ED; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 12:44:21 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -45.331 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-45.331 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, DOS_OE_TO_MX=2.75, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HELO_DYNAMIC_HCC=4.295, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2=4.395, HELO_EQ_BR=0.955, HELO_EQ_DSL=1.129, HELO_EQ_TELESP=1.245, HOST_EQ_BR=1.295, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_RECV_SPAM_DOMN02=1.666, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001, TVD_FINGER_02=2.134, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.931, URIBL_BLACK=20, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rPxA3qiDho9C; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 12:44:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from rrcs-71-41-125-50.se.biz.rr.com (rrcs-71-41-125-50.se.biz.rr.com [71.41.125.50]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 120A128C0E7; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 12:44:21 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <000d01cab0db$56feb560$6400a8c0@psychicallyx3> From: "greetingcard.org" To: Subject: You Have Received a Greeting Card Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 15:45:43 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam: Not detected To pick up your eCard, click on the following link (or copy & paste it into your web browser): http://kamien-grabica.kei.pl/ecard.exe Your card will be aviailable for pick-up beginning for the next 30 days. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Thu Feb 18 13:28:50 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1E4C3A7F03; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 13:28:50 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.985 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.985 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.548, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_NET=0.611, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id h+YJtvE3DX9w; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 13:28:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F3CA3A7BF9; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 13:28:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NiDsz-0005MI-5I for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 21:26:13 +0000 Received: from [201.216.232.80] (helo=smtp1.xmundo.net) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NiDsw-0005Lu-EV for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 21:26:10 +0000 Received: from venus.xmundo.net (venus.xmundo.net [201.216.232.56]) by smtp1.xmundo.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 576306B683D; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 18:26:12 -0300 (ART) Received: from [192.168.0.100] (129-130-17-190.fibertel.com.ar [190.17.130.129]) (authenticated bits=0) by venus.xmundo.net (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id o1ILQ6Iq000803; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 18:26:06 -0300 Message-ID: <4B7DB06E.6050707@gont.com.ar> Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 18:26:06 -0300 From: Fernando Gont User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Windows/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Andrew Sullivan CC: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] Draft: WGLC draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-tcp-requirements References: <201002181317.OAA20214@TR-Sys.de> <6B738B7B-4E97-4973-B385-4DA030384649@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> <59243.1266510694@nsa.vix.com> <4B7D929C.70901@gont.com.ar> <73980.1266521075@nsa.vix.com> <4B7D9C4C.9050104@gont.com.ar> <20100218202140.GM40337@shinkuro.com> In-Reply-To: <20100218202140.GM40337@shinkuro.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.96.0 OpenPGP: id=D076FFF1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH authentication, not delayed by milter-greylist-3.0 (venus.xmundo.net [201.216.232.56]); Thu, 18 Feb 2010 18:26:11 -0300 (ART) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: Andrew Sullivan wrote: > I think Paul's point is that, if the document is going to say that, it > is in fact a modification of the protocol, and requires careful study > of what happens if one actually implements such behaviour in > widely-used servers. I don't believe this is a change in the protocol. Note that I'm not arguing "from now on TCP connections used for DNS should be closed with a 'RST'". I'm arguing that if you're going to tear down a connection because you're running out of resources, you better to it with an ABORT call... or else you may be getting into yet more trouble. > So far, the document doesn't actually make that > sort of change to the protocol: it merely says, "You really do need > TCP" and not, "Not only do you need TCP, but you need to be able to > break TCP connections in a way nobody does today." Well, it does requires that servers be free to close connections... so it already shows concerns for DoS attacks.... > Because of the difference in effect on the protocol, it seems to me > that a document suggesting another manner for closing TCP connections > other than close() could easily be separated from the draft under > discussion. Such a document would clearly be a standalone one that > updated a specific part of STD13. I understand that TCP security issues need not be addressed in this document (which rather aims at requiring support of TCP in DNS implementations). However, it is a real and valid concern that of TCP support increasing the risk of DoS. And I believe that if we're going to require TCP support, we should also address the concern of DoS... not necessarility in this document, though. > Thoughts? (Volunteers?) If it comes to general improvements in TCP security, there's already draft-ietf-tcpm-tcp-security (which, given some tcpm statistics and some extrapolations, could possibly take more than twenty years to complete :-) ). However, I believe that it could be of help to provide some advice along the lines of "TCP tuning for DNS", that could provide specific advice on how to set various fields and various policies for DNS (e.g., recommended TCP window to use, recommended timeouts, recommended ways to tear down connections, etc.). If there's support for this idea, I volunteer to start writing on a draft version of such a document. Thanks, -- Fernando Gont e-mail: fernando@gont.com.ar || fgont@acm.org PGP Fingerprint: 7809 84F5 322E 45C7 F1C9 3945 96EE A9EF D076 FFF1 From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Thu Feb 18 13:58:20 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5775E3A8078; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 13:58:20 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.456 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.456 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.961, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YA+oY4-zb6fb; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 13:58:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76C953A6F85; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 13:58:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NiEMY-0008jg-9R for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 21:56:46 +0000 Received: from [66.92.146.20] (helo=stora.ogud.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NiEMV-0008jK-HX for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 21:56:44 +0000 Received: from [IPv6:::1] (nyttbox.md.ogud.com [10.20.30.4]) by stora.ogud.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o1ILuNFV027952; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 16:56:23 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from ogud@ogud.com) Message-ID: <4B7DB786.6020009@ogud.com> Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 16:56:22 -0500 From: Olafur Gudmundsson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.1; en-GB; rv:1.9.1.7) Gecko/20100111 Thunderbird/3.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Paul Vixie CC: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] Draft minutes from interim meeting today References: <20100216203626.GN36083@shinkuro.com> <4B7B3F32.30709@ucd.ie> <20100217232209.GE39457@shinkuro.com> <14856.1266449506@nsa.vix.com> In-Reply-To: <14856.1266449506@nsa.vix.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.67 on 10.20.30.4 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On 17/02/2010 6:31 PM, Paul Vixie wrote: >> Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 18:22:16 -0500 >> From: Andrew Sullivan >> >> Excellent question. That the constraints were to be applied generally >> to what we were trying to do was indeed what I thought I heard. If >> people did not intend me to interpret things that way, it would be >> useful to learn that as soon as possible. I'll leave this in the >> minutes unchanged regardless, but if people correct my >> misapprehension, I will add a note to the minutes to the effect that >> subsequent discussion revealed that the chair, in his usual dozy way, >> misunderstood the intention of the WG. > > the audio was poor. it's easy to imagine people humming to my constraints > thinking we were doing so for zone clones even though you thought you'd > asked us whether we were ready to adopt my constraints for all solutions. > > > I think that the possbile solutions in this space can be grouped into two big buckets "Replication" and "Indirection". (The "Not a Problem" bucket has been ruled out). My guess is that you intented to set the scope for solutions in the "Replication" space w/o influencing any solutions in the "Indirection" space. This realization did not come to me until after the meeting, and having had time to reflect on what I heard on the phone and reading Andrews draft minutes. Please clarify what solution space you intented your scope statement to cover. Any way for due process the chairs need to confirm on the mailing list that the working group agrees with the proposed path forward. Olafur From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Thu Feb 18 14:41:09 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A41E3A75BD; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 14:41:09 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.523 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.523 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.076, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ojBWQ0PRJxJP; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 14:41:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44B0D3A7375; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 14:41:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NiF0K-000DOK-VG for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 22:37:52 +0000 Received: from [2001:4f8:3:bb::5] (helo=farside.isc.org) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NiF0G-000DMc-Uq for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 22:37:48 +0000 Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (drugs.dv.isc.org [IPv6:2001:470:1f00:820:214:22ff:fed9:fbdc]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "drugs.dv.isc.org", Issuer "ISC CA" (not verified)) by farside.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E35CEE606C; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 22:37:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marka@isc.org) Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by drugs.dv.isc.org (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o1IMbeQS028842; Fri, 19 Feb 2010 09:37:41 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from marka@drugs.dv.isc.org) Message-Id: <201002182237.o1IMbeQS028842@drugs.dv.isc.org> To: Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk Cc: Alfred =?ISO-8859-1?Q?H=F6nes?= , fernando@gont.com.ar, namedroppers@ops.ietf.org From: Mark Andrews References: <201002181317.OAA20214@TR-Sys.de> Subject: Re: [dnsext] Draft: WGLC draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-tcp-requirements In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 18 Feb 2010 13:38:57 -0000." Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 09:37:40 +1100 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: In message , Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk writes: > > In general, I concur. > > > > But I would prefer to not simply strike the "TBD" in ... > > > > This document therefore RECOMMENDS that the application-level idle > > period should be of the order of TBD seconds. > > > > ... as others have suggested; "tens of seconds" (or even more) > > seems to be more appropriate (see below). > > This is straying into "pick a number" territory (which I'm trying to > avoid), and covers all the way up to the current 120s. > > My own view (for what it's worth) is that I really mean seconds (i.e. 2, > 4, etc), and not "tens of" seconds. > > > I miss an important argument (didn't I spell it out already earlier > > when the WG discussed adoption of the draft?): > > In part yes. Your previous concern mostly appeared to be a > misunderstanding - that I was trying to reduce the TCP stack timeout. > > Hence I adjusted the draft to make it clear that it's only the application > level timeout that should be reduced. > > > The party doing an "active close" of a TCP connection (more precisely: > > the peer sending a FIN before having received one) has to go through > > TIME-WAIT state, in order to avoid connection clashes and to mitigate > > certain security threats. Thus, a server actively closing a TCP > > connection still has to keep (at least partial) connection state. > > The TCP MSL (maximum segment lifetime) cannot be assumed to be > > arbitrarily short in these days; routing changes and handover delays > > in mobile node connections have increased the real-life MSL > > significantly above the level that many folks deemed reasonable > > a decade ago or so. > > Thus, a server unilaterally closing a TCP connection not only does > > not immediately free state, it also runs the danger that the client > > will have another query and retry TCP connection setup during his > > TIME-WAIT state. > > Yes, that's correct. > > However in practise I expect that clients will tear down the connection > far more commonly than servers. > Mark A - if you're listening - what's BIND's behaviour when acting as a > client? Can you confirm my supposition? > > kind regards, > > Ray Named's current behaviour is to perform a query then close the connection. libbind has the option to keep connections open, but it is not the default. Netstat uses it from memory. Named may in the future check to see if there is already a open TCP socket to the server and re-use it rather than creating a new one. I don't see us holding the socket open just on spec at this point. Mark -- Mark Andrews, ISC 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: marka@isc.org From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Thu Feb 18 16:00:12 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E65B73A73B6; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 16:00:12 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.682 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.682 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.083, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8o4jlinNYWPT; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 16:00:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39DD13A6BF8; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 16:00:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NiG95-000LPM-WC for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 23:51:00 +0000 Received: from [2001:4f8:3:bb:230:48ff:fe5a:2f38] (helo=nsa.vix.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:CAMELLIA256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NiG93-000LOW-Aq for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 23:50:57 +0000 Received: from nsa.vix.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nsa.vix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1D56AA085 for ; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 23:50:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vixie@nsa.vix.com) From: Paul Vixie To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] Draft: WGLC draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-tcp-requirements In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 18 Feb 2010 17:00:12 -0300." <4B7D9C4C.9050104@gont.com.ar> References: <201002181317.OAA20214@TR-Sys.de> <6B738B7B-4E97-4973-B385-4DA030384649@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> <59243.1266510694@nsa.vix.com> <4B7D929C.70901@gont.com.ar> <73980.1266521075@nsa.vix.com> <4B7D9C4C.9050104@gont.com.ar> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.1; nil; GNU Emacs 22.2.1 Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 23:50:56 +0000 Message-ID: <92819.1266537056@nsa.vix.com> Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: > Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 17:00:12 -0300 > From: Fernando Gont > > If you're going to tear down connections because you're running out of > resources, then it doesn't make sense to get into yet another > resource-intensive operation such as the TCP "graceful close" (i.e., FIN > exchange). no, it doesn't. however, the original DNS RFC's do not contemplate TCP as a frequently used transport for DNS QUERY, and so they specify such grace, and there are clients designed with assumptions of that grace. until and unless we change the protocol, not merely clarify it, graceful close is what the protocol is specified to use here. for correctness, this means starving new TCP sessions at the expense of the long timeouts specified for existing TCP sessions. i don't like it but i'm not ready to say that the spec was unclear and that we can get rid of this behaviour by merely clarifying the spec. > I agree that this would not be a "clarification". But I don't think it > would make sense to recommend servers to close connections when they are > running out of resources without giving them a hint on how to do it > properly. If they just close() the connection, they run the risk of > sockstress-like attacks we all know about. this is why some of us are talking about Cookie Transaction TCP, and/or SCTP. TCP/53 is simply useless by design. see , noting that the weaknesses of both of DNS's present transports (UDP/53 and TCP/53) are well understood by those authors. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Thu Feb 18 16:10:36 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D52E63A67E4; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 16:10:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.676 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.676 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.077, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rSSoNeghJZze; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 16:10:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52CB03A7979; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 16:10:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NiGKx-000Mon-4h for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Fri, 19 Feb 2010 00:03:15 +0000 Received: from [2001:4f8:3:bb:230:48ff:fe5a:2f38] (helo=nsa.vix.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:CAMELLIA256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NiGKr-000MoN-Ke for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 19 Feb 2010 00:03:09 +0000 Received: from nsa.vix.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nsa.vix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53D36AA101 for ; Fri, 19 Feb 2010 00:03:09 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vixie@nsa.vix.com) From: Paul Vixie To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] Draft: WGLC draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-tcp-requirements In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 18 Feb 2010 18:26:06 -0300." <4B7DB06E.6050707@gont.com.ar> References: <201002181317.OAA20214@TR-Sys.de> <6B738B7B-4E97-4973-B385-4DA030384649@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> <59243.1266510694@nsa.vix.com> <4B7D929C.70901@gont.com.ar> <73980.1266521075@nsa.vix.com> <4B7D9C4C.9050104@gont.com.ar> <20100218202140.GM40337@shinkuro.com> <4B7DB06E.6050707@gont.com.ar> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.1; nil; GNU Emacs 22.2.1 Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 00:03:09 +0000 Message-ID: <93481.1266537789@nsa.vix.com> Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: > Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 18:26:06 -0300 > From: Fernando Gont > > I don't believe this is a change in the protocol. Note that I'm not > arguing "from now on TCP connections used for DNS should be closed with a > 'RST'". I'm arguing that if you're going to tear down a connection > because you're running out of resources, you better to it with an ABORT > call... or else you may be getting into yet more trouble. RFC 1035 4.2.2 does not describe that form of connection management while it does describe several others. i recommend that the spec be followed with regard to TCP connection management, which may require changing the spec to allow the kind of connection management you are now describing. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Thu Feb 18 16:13:11 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 792BD3A67E4; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 16:13:11 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.67 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.67 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.071, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HJTynZ2U7P+j; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 16:13:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1D4F3A6926; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 16:13:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NiGOM-000NCM-3P for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Fri, 19 Feb 2010 00:06:46 +0000 Received: from [2001:4f8:3:bb:230:48ff:fe5a:2f38] (helo=nsa.vix.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:CAMELLIA256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NiGOJ-000NC8-Ca for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 19 Feb 2010 00:06:43 +0000 Received: from nsa.vix.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nsa.vix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24DD9AA107 for ; Fri, 19 Feb 2010 00:06:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vixie@nsa.vix.com) From: Paul Vixie To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] Draft minutes from interim meeting today In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 18 Feb 2010 16:56:22 EST." <4B7DB786.6020009@ogud.com> References: <20100216203626.GN36083@shinkuro.com> <4B7B3F32.30709@ucd.ie> <20100217232209.GE39457@shinkuro.com> <14856.1266449506@nsa.vix.com> <4B7DB786.6020009@ogud.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.1; nil; GNU Emacs 22.2.1 Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 00:06:43 +0000 Message-ID: <93565.1266538003@nsa.vix.com> Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: > Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 16:56:22 -0500 > From: Olafur Gudmundsson > ... > My guess is that you intented to set the scope for solutions in the > "Replication" space w/o influencing any solutions in the "Indirection" > space. > ... > Please clarify what solution space you intented your scope statement to > cover. Any way for due process the chairs need to confirm on the mailing > list that the working group agrees with the proposed path forward. i listed the constraints that guided my design for zone clones. i think they are the right constraints for any solution to namespace aliasing, but as you expected, i can defend it better for replication than indirection. in other words i was not trying to add to the problem statement, only to illuminate my own personal guideance to aid in evaluating my design for zone clones. but if the WG wants to adopt those constraints more generally that's also fine by me. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Thu Feb 18 16:19:04 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 345813A73B6; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 16:19:04 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 3.913 X-Spam-Level: *** X-Spam-Status: No, score=3.913 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.018, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_EQ_BLUEYON=1.4, HELO_MISMATCH_UK=1.749, MIME_BASE64_BLANKS=0.041, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RqMJGlGckImB; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 16:19:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 538EE3A67E4; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 16:19:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NiGT5-000NfF-H3 for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Fri, 19 Feb 2010 00:11:39 +0000 Received: from [195.188.213.5] (helo=smtp-out2.blueyonder.co.uk) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NiGT2-000Neq-J8 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 19 Feb 2010 00:11:37 +0000 Received: from [172.23.170.145] (helo=anti-virus03-08) by smtp-out2.blueyonder.co.uk with smtp (Exim 4.52) id 1NiGSz-0007K3-8c; Fri, 19 Feb 2010 00:11:33 +0000 Received: from [92.238.99.235] (helo=GeorgeLaptop) by asmtp-out4.blueyonder.co.uk with esmtpa (Exim 4.52) id 1NiGSy-0005iq-OH; Fri, 19 Feb 2010 00:11:32 +0000 Message-ID: <63374DEBA0C347458403B9364029A914@localhost> From: "George Barwood" To: "Paul Vixie" , References: <201002181317.OAA20214@TR-Sys.de> <6B738B7B-4E97-4973-B385-4DA030384649@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> <59243.1266510694@nsa.vix.com> <4B7D929C.70901@gont.com.ar> <73980.1266521075@nsa.vix.com> Subject: Re: [dnsext] Draft: WGLC draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-tcp-requirements Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 00:11:28 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5843 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: LS0tLS0gT3JpZ2luYWwgTWVzc2FnZSAtLS0tLSANCkZyb206ICJQYXVsIFZpeGllIiA8dml4aWVA aXNjLm9yZz4NClRvOiA8bmFtZWRyb3BwZXJzQG9wcy5pZXRmLm9yZz4NClNlbnQ6IFRodXJzZGF5 LCBGZWJydWFyeSAxOCwgMjAxMCA3OjI0IFBNDQpTdWJqZWN0OiBSZTogW2Ruc2V4dF0gRHJhZnQ6 IFdHTEMgZHJhZnQtaWV0Zi1kbnNleHQtZG5zLXRjcC1yZXF1aXJlbWVudHMgDQoNCg0KPj4gRGF0 ZTogVGh1LCAxOCBGZWIgMjAxMCAxNjoxODo1MiAtMDMwMA0KPj4gRnJvbTogRmVybmFuZG8gR29u dCA8ZmVybmFuZG9AZ29udC5jb20uYXI+DQo+PiANCj4+ID4gYW55IHNlcnZlci1pbml0aWF0ZWQg Y2xvc2UgdGhhdCBpc24ndCBGSU4gb3IgaXNuJ3QgdGltZW91dC1iYXNlZCB3b3VsZCBiZSBhDQo+ PiA+IHByb3RvY29sIGNoYW5nZSBub3QgYSBjbGFyaWZpY2F0aW9uLCBhbmQgc3ViamVjdCB0byBz dHJvbmdlciByZXZpZXcgaGVyZS4NCj4+IA0KPj4gSSBkaXNhZ3JlZS4gVGVybWluYXRpbmcgYSBj b25uZWN0aW9uIHdpdGggYW4gUlNUIGlzIGFuIEFCT1JUIHByb2NlZHVyZQ0KPj4gY2FsbCwgYWxy ZWFkeSBzcGVjaWZpZWQgaW4gUkZDIDc5MyBmb3IgdGhlICJhYnN0cmFjdCIgVENQIEFQSS4NCj4g DQo+IGN1cnJlbnQgY2xpZW50IGV4cGVjdGF0aW9ucyBhcmUgdGhhdCB3aGVuIHRoaXMgb2NjdXJz IGl0IGlzIGFuIGVycm9yIHdvcnRoeQ0KPiBvZiBzeXNsb2cuICBpJ20gbm90IHNheWluZyB0aGF0 IFJTVCBpc24ndCBkZWZpbmVkLCBpJ20gc2F5aW5nIHRoYXQgdXNpbmcgaXQNCj4gdGhpcyB3YXkg KHNlcnZlciBzaWRlIGNvbm5lY3Rpb24gcG9vbCBtYW5hZ2VtZW50IGZvciBub24tdGltZW91dCBy ZWFzb25zKSBpcw0KPiBhIHByb3RvY29sIGNoYW5nZSBmb3IgVENQLzUzLCBhbmQgaXMgbm90IGEg Y2xhcmlmaWNhdGlvbiBvZiB0aGUgRE5TIHN0YW5kYXJkLg0KDQpSRkMgMTAzNSBzdGF0ZXM6DQoN CiAgLSBJZiB0aGUgc2VydmVyIG5lZWRzIHRvIGNsb3NlIGEgZG9ybWFudCBjb25uZWN0aW9uIHRv IHJlY2xhaW0NCiAgICAgcmVzb3VyY2VzLCBpdCBzaG91bGQgd2FpdCB1bnRpbCB0aGUgY29ubmVj dGlvbiBoYXMgYmVlbiBpZGxlDQogICAgIGZvciBhIHBlcmlvZCBvbiB0aGUgb3JkZXIgb2YgdHdv IG1pbnV0ZXMuICBJbiBwYXJ0aWN1bGFyLCB0aGUNCiAgICAgc2VydmVyIHNob3VsZCBhbGxvdyB0 aGUgU09BIGFuZCBBWEZSIHJlcXVlc3Qgc2VxdWVuY2UgKHdoaWNoDQogICAgIGJlZ2lucyBhIHJl ZnJlc2ggb3BlcmF0aW9uKSB0byBiZSBtYWRlIG9uIGEgc2luZ2xlIGNvbm5lY3Rpb24uDQogICAg IFNpbmNlIHRoZSBzZXJ2ZXIgd291bGQgYmUgdW5hYmxlIHRvIGFuc3dlciBxdWVyaWVzIGFueXdh eSwgYQ0KICAgICB1bmlsYXRlcmFsIGNsb3NlIG9yIHJlc2V0IG1heSBiZSB1c2VkIGluc3RlYWQg b2YgYSBncmFjZWZ1bA0KICAgICBjbG9zZS4NCkRvZXNuJ3QgdGhpcyBzdGF0ZSBleHBsaWNpdGx5 IHRoYXQgYSByZXNldCBtYXkgYmUgdXNlZD8gKCBJIGFkbWl0IEkgZG9uJ3Qga25vdyB3aGF0DQp0 ZWggZGlzdGluY3Rpb24gYmV0d2VlbiBhICJ1bmlsYXRlcmFsIiBhbmQgImdyYWNlZnVsIiBjbG9z ZSBpcyApLg0KSSB0aGluayBhIHBvc3NpYmxlIGNsYXJpZmljYXRpb24gaXMgdGhhdCBhIHJlc2V0 IFNIT1VMRCBiZSB1c2VkLCByYXRoZXIgdGhhbiBNQVkuDQpUaGF0J3MgY2VydGFpbmx5IHdoYXQg SSBoYXZlIGltcGxlbWVudGVkLCBhbHRob3VnaCBhZnRlciB0ZXN0aW5nLCBJIHNlZSB0aGlzIHNl ZW1zIHVudXN1YWwuDQoNCk9mIGNvdXJzZSBpZiB0aGUgQklORCBjbGllbnQgY2xvc2VzIGltbWVk aWF0ZWx5IGFmdGVyIGEgcmVzcG9uc2UsIHRoaXMgd29uJ3Qgbm9ybWFsbHkgaGFwcGVuLA0Kc28g dGhlIHN5c2xvZyB3aWxsIHN0YXkgZW1wdHkuIElmIHRoZSBCSU5EIGNsaWVudCBjaGFuZ2VzIHRv IGtlZXBpbmcgdGhlIGNvbm5lY3Rpb24gb3BlbiwgaXQNCndvdWxkIG5lZWQgdG8gY2hhbmdlIGl0 J3Mgc3lzbG9nIHBvbGljeSBJIHRoaW5rLg0K From fermentsbpr1@photoceans.com Thu Feb 18 17:46:21 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40CEF28C135; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 17:46:21 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -60.044 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-60.044 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_FAKE_RCVD_LINE_B=5.777, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HELO_DYNAMIC_HCC=4.295, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2=4.395, HELO_EQ_BR=0.955, HELO_EQ_DSL=1.129, HELO_EQ_TELESP=1.245, HOST_EQ_BR=1.295, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_NJABL_PROXY=1.643, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_RECV_SPAM_DOMN02=1.666, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.931, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0pl1W5jBOyRG; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 17:46:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from 201-26-4-248.dsl.telesp.net.br (201-26-4-248.dsl.telesp.net.br [201.26.4.248]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 220A328C0E2; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 17:46:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from 201.26.4.248 by mail.photoceans.com; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 23:48:01 -0300 Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2010 23:48:01 -0300 From: dnsext-archive@ietf.org Subject: Solutions for ero-exploits To: Message-ID: <000d01cab105$92374910$6400a8c0@fermentsbpr1> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal Something like viruses or bacteria interferes your normal life? 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With our portal you will eliminate problems easily! Click, find and buy! With our large variety of products and lowered prices you will always be a satisfied buyer! http://img683.imageshack.us/img683/7086/soiro.swf From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Thu Feb 18 22:11:16 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 30E1528C1EA; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 22:11:16 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.985 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.985 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.548, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_NET=0.611, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qz-Y96gf4u-F; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 22:11:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A956628C1D1; Thu, 18 Feb 2010 22:10:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NiLuN-00088x-QL for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Fri, 19 Feb 2010 06:00:11 +0000 Received: from [201.216.232.80] (helo=smtp1.xmundo.net) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NiLuL-000885-IL for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 19 Feb 2010 06:00:09 +0000 Received: from venus.xmundo.net (venus.xmundo.net [201.216.232.56]) by smtp1.xmundo.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F1F16B6777; Fri, 19 Feb 2010 03:00:13 -0300 (ART) Received: from [192.168.0.100] (144-174-17-190.fibertel.com.ar [190.17.174.144]) (authenticated bits=0) by venus.xmundo.net (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id o1J600t5008977; Fri, 19 Feb 2010 03:00:01 -0300 Message-ID: <4B7E28E0.6050409@gont.com.ar> Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 03:00:00 -0300 From: Fernando Gont User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Windows/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: George Barwood CC: Paul Vixie , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] Draft: WGLC draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-tcp-requirements References: <201002181317.OAA20214@TR-Sys.de> <6B738B7B-4E97-4973-B385-4DA030384649@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> <59243.1266510694@nsa.vix.com> <4B7D929C.70901@gont.com.ar> <73980.1266521075@nsa.vix.com> <63374DEBA0C347458403B9364029A914@localhost> In-Reply-To: <63374DEBA0C347458403B9364029A914@localhost> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.96.0 OpenPGP: id=D076FFF1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH authentication, not delayed by milter-greylist-3.0 (venus.xmundo.net [201.216.232.56]); Fri, 19 Feb 2010 03:00:12 -0300 (ART) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: George Barwood wrote: > Doesn't this state explicitly that a reset may be used? ( I admit I don't know what > teh distinction between a "unilateral" and "graceful" close is ). Unilateral close is is a reset, as in: A B --- RST ---> Graceful close is the FIN handshake, as in: A B --- FIN ---> <-- ACK --- <-- FIN --- --- ACK ---> Kind regards, -- Fernando Gont e-mail: fernando@gont.com.ar || fgont@acm.org PGP Fingerprint: 7809 84F5 322E 45C7 F1C9 3945 96EE A9EF D076 FFF1 From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Fri Feb 19 00:36:03 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D96728C162; Fri, 19 Feb 2010 00:36:03 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.772 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.772 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.474, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_UK=1.749, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9opI2AyEe1-C; Fri, 19 Feb 2010 00:36:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9B5F28C15A; Fri, 19 Feb 2010 00:36:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NiOI7-000Pxs-HN for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Fri, 19 Feb 2010 08:32:51 +0000 Received: from [213.248.199.23] (helo=mx3.nominet.org.uk) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NiOI3-000Pvj-CO for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 19 Feb 2010 08:32:47 +0000 DomainKey-Signature: s=main.dk.nominet.selector; d=nominet.org.uk; c=nofws; q=dns; h=X-IronPort-AV:Received:In-Reply-To:References:To:Cc: Subject:MIME-Version:X-Mailer:Message-ID:From:Date: X-MIMETrack:Content-Type; b=RArlzT00LgVaccFTiBlijc6hINs+vb5v2FT+a4gWnblQVvfJs0xxxU6N KIr/ETcjQeyO6S66jxTrOJ+M+vErywrX03UbBM5wOkD2G5EYSl5ceXpwd aG6WDeOLNsqu3yf; DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nominet.org.uk; i=Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk; q=dns/txt; s=main.dkim.nominet.selector; t=1266568367; x=1298104367; h=from:sender:reply-to:subject:date:message-id:to:cc: mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:content-id: content-description:resent-date:resent-from:resent-sender: resent-to:resent-cc:resent-message-id:in-reply-to: references:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe: list-subscribe:list-post:list-owner:list-archive; z=From:=20Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk|Subject:=20Re:=20[dnse xt]=20Draft:=20WGLC=20draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-tcp-requireme nts|Date:=20Fri,=2019=20Feb=202010=2008:32:44=20+0000 |Message-ID:=20|To:=20"George=20Barwood" =20|Cc:=20namedroppers@o ps.ietf.org|MIME-Version:=201.0|In-Reply-To:=20<63374DEBA 0C347458403B9364029A914@localhost>|References:=20<2010021 81317.OAA20214@TR-Sys.de>=20<6B738B7B-4E97-4973-B385-4DA0 30384649@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU>=20<59243.1266510694@nsa.vix.c om>=20=20<4B7D929C.70901@gont.com.ar>=20=20<73980.1266521 075@nsa.vix.com>=20<63374DEBA0C347458403B9364029A914@loca lhost>; bh=ieNfHtnsmbTH90M7KkkEV6DL5BihlwXs+djI6n0dl6Y=; b=dUQOhSq6lToAX1tMt9S12jKmRxnIMstOgyQebli8a/CcBT62L6MxNi6Z MnpNViY1mCu7lMfRaS45/R0gDoGNCFHXxKXTmJD032TlOjZyy69zuTIAw tPSbLyoRLDa/gNa; X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.49,502,1262563200"; d="scan'208";a="21855812" Received: from notes1.nominet.org.uk ([213.248.197.128]) by mx3.nominet.org.uk with ESMTP; 19 Feb 2010 08:32:45 +0000 In-Reply-To: <63374DEBA0C347458403B9364029A914@localhost> References: <201002181317.OAA20214@TR-Sys.de> <6B738B7B-4E97-4973-B385-4DA030384649@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> <59243.1266510694@nsa.vix.com> <4B7D929C.70901@gont.com.ar> <73980.1266521075@nsa.vix.com> <63374DEBA0C347458403B9364029A914@localhost> To: "George Barwood" Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] Draft: WGLC draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-tcp-requirements MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 8.5 December 05, 2008 Message-ID: From: Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 08:32:44 +0000 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on notes1/Nominet(Release 7.0.1FP1 | May 25, 2006) at 19/02/2010 08:32:44 AM, Serialize complete at 19/02/2010 08:32:44 AM Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_alternative 002EF16A802576CF_=" Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: This is a multipart message in MIME format. --=_alternative 002EF16A802576CF_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > RFC 1035 states: >=20 > - If the server needs to close a dormant connection to reclaim > resources, it should wait until the connection has been idle > for a period on the order of two minutes. In particular, the > server should allow the SOA and AXFR request sequence (which > begins a refresh operation) to be made on a single connection. > Since the server would be unable to answer queries anyway, a > unilateral close or reset may be used instead of a graceful > close. Thanks George, for actually going back to the source and checking :) Indeed, the protocol does already appear to allow a RST to close a=20 connection in those circumstances. I *think* everyone's concerns about =A75 can be addressed simply by adding = "or reset" after "unilaterally close" for clarity, per the 1035 text. I=20 don't think the TCP resource state differences between FIN/RST needs to be = addressed here. I note various comments (mostly Nick W's) about allowing flexibility in=20 the timeout. The draft already says: "Servers MAY allow dormant connections to remain open for longer periods" which I believe gives implementers all the flexibility they need. Does=20 adding more text here really help? Note I'm a fan of short and=20 to-the-point RFCs ;) Ray --=_alternative 002EF16A802576CF_= Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> RFC 1035 states:
>
>   - If the server needs to close a dormant connection to reclaim<= br> >      resources, it should wait until the connection has been idle
>      for a period on the order of two minutes.  In particular, the
>      server should allow the SOA and AXFR request seque= nce (which
>      begins a refresh operation) to be made on a single connection.
>      Since the server would be unable to answer queries anyway, a
>      unilateral close or reset may be used instead of a graceful
>      close.
Thanks George, for actually going back to the source and checking :)

Indeed, the protocol does already appear to allow a RST to close a connection in those circumstances.

I *think* everyone's concerns about =A75 can be addr= essed simply by adding "or reset" after "unilaterally close" for clarity, per the 1035 text.  I don't think the TCP resource state differences between FIN/RST needs to be addressed here.

I note various comments (mostly Nick W's) about allo= wing flexibility in the timeout.  The draft already says:

  "Servers MAY allow dormant connections to remain open
   for longer periods"

which I believe gives implementers all the flexibili= ty they need.  Does adding more text here really help?  Note I'm a fan of short and to-the-point RFCs  ;)

Ray
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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Fri Feb 19 01:43:37 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95D893A80F4; Fri, 19 Feb 2010 01:43:37 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.175 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.175 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-2.680, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kNub5lGQqHpb; Fri, 19 Feb 2010 01:43:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C81033A7AC1; Fri, 19 Feb 2010 01:43:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NiPL2-00090P-FH for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Fri, 19 Feb 2010 09:39:56 +0000 Received: from [89.16.176.221] (helo=mail.avalus.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NiPKz-0008zm-4v for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 19 Feb 2010 09:39:53 +0000 Received: from [192.168.100.15] (87-194-71-186.bethere.co.uk [87.194.71.186]) by mail.avalus.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 86354C562F1; Fri, 19 Feb 2010 09:39:50 +0000 (GMT) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 09:39:49 +0000 From: Alex Bligh Reply-To: Alex Bligh To: Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk, George Barwood cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org, Alex Bligh Subject: Re: [dnsext] Draft: WGLC draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-tcp-requirements Message-ID: <420D825130D55974F4C56E7C@Ximines.local> In-Reply-To: References: <201002181317.OAA20214@TR-Sys.de> <6B738B7B-4E97-4973-B385-4DA030384649@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> <59243.1266510694@nsa.vix.com> <4B7D929C.70901@gont.com.ar> <73980.1266521075@nsa.vix.com> <63374DEBA0C347458403B9364029A914@localhost> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Mac OS X) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: --On 19 February 2010 08:32:44 +0000 Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk wrote: > I *think* everyone's concerns about =C2=A75 can be addressed simply by = adding > "or reset" after "unilaterally close" for clarity, per the 1035 text. I > don't think the TCP resource state differences between FIN/RST needs to > be addressed here. I wonder if adding something like "This behaviour is subject to the requirements of the prevailing TCP RFCs" (or similar) would put people's mind at rest that the intention is not to change the TCP RFCs. --=20 Alex Bligh From dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Fri Feb 19 01:46:05 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40FE53A80FA for ; Fri, 19 Feb 2010 01:46:05 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -24.985 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-24.985 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2=4.395, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_16=1.526, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_02=0.383, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_2=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_FROM_DRUGS=1.666, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.931, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_SBL=20, URI_HEX=0.368, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Pad4emCU8l0s for ; Fri, 19 Feb 2010 01:46:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from 153-54-134-95.pool.ukrtel.net (153-54-134-95.pool.ukrtel.net [95.134.54.153]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C13633A80F4 for ; Fri, 19 Feb 2010 01:46:02 -0800 (PST) From: "Pfizer (tm) VIAGRA (c)" To: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: Personal dnsext-archive 82% Off MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20100219094602.C13633A80F4@core3.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 01:46:02 -0800 (PST) User dnsext-archive Newsletter
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From dnsext-archive@ietf.org Fri Feb 19 01:46:17 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 30B893A7AC1 for ; Fri, 19 Feb 2010 01:46:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -24.985 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-24.985 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2=4.395, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_16=1.526, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_02=0.383, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_2=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_FROM_DRUGS=1.666, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.931, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_SBL=20, URI_HEX=0.368, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SXXdkSw4HIPa for ; Fri, 19 Feb 2010 01:46:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from 153-54-134-95.pool.ukrtel.net (153-54-134-95.pool.ukrtel.net [95.134.54.153]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A02773A80F4 for ; Fri, 19 Feb 2010 01:46:14 -0800 (PST) From: "Pfizer (tm) VIAGRA (c)" To: dnsext-archive@ietf.org Subject: Personal dnsext-archive 82% Off MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20100219094614.A02773A80F4@core3.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 01:46:14 -0800 (PST) User dnsext-archive Newsletter
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Buy and let ailments go away! http://genesco50.spaces.live.com From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Fri Feb 19 03:56:42 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5F8B3A8108; Fri, 19 Feb 2010 03:56:42 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.048 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.048 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id a30Q8Osg7bNT; Fri, 19 Feb 2010 03:56:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61D4028C167; Fri, 19 Feb 2010 03:56:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NiRPB-0002Ze-Ts for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Fri, 19 Feb 2010 11:52:21 +0000 Received: from [83.145.227.89] (helo=gusev.araneus.fi) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NiRP9-0002ZA-5U for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 19 Feb 2010 11:52:19 +0000 Received: from guava.gson.org (guava.gson.org [83.145.227.105]) by gusev.araneus.fi (Postfix) with ESMTP id E274691C1B; Fri, 19 Feb 2010 13:52:41 +0200 (EET) Received: by guava.gson.org (Postfix, from userid 101) id 352AB75E9D; Fri, 19 Feb 2010 13:52:16 +0200 (EET) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <19326.31599.959931.733762@guava.gson.org> Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 13:52:15 +0200 To: Alfred Hoenes CC: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: [dnsext] Re: polishing of draft-ietf-dnsext-rfc3597-bis-01 In-Reply-To: <201002161026.LAA15402@TR-Sys.de> References: <19322.21166.344190.141076@guava.gson.org> <201002161026.LAA15402@TR-Sys.de> X-Mailer: VM 8.0.14 under 21.4.1 (i386--netbsdelf) From: Andreas Gustafsson Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: Alfred Hoenes wrote: > Well, the improvement IMHO would be the central place to look for > definitions, making it easier for future documents to include these > definitions 'en bloc' by reference. At this juncture, my main concern is the progress of this document rather than the ease of writing future ones. If the sentiment of the working group as a whole is that your proposed change is important, I will integrate it, but otherwise I would really prefer to leave the text as is. > >> The list of 'word' in Section 5 might be improved visually > >> by making use of "symbols" type list format, e.g. using dashes > >> or asterisks. > > > > Agreed, but I'm not sure how to do this in "nroff -ms" (the document > > is based on the original RFC3597 nroff source); hints are welcome. > > Sorry, I can't offer recent experience, but as the RFC Editor uses > nroff for the final stage, it must be possible. > Do you have the macros available that are described in > Section 5.3.7.2 if draft-lilly-using-troff-05 ? Unfortunately, I don't; the document is is based on plain "nroff -ms" plus the fix.pl post-processing script from RFC2223 (the initial version of the document predates draft-lilly-using-troff-05 by several years). But I did finally managed to find a (somewhat ugly) solution based on the .IP command. > So I assume that you have applied the change of terminology to the > 3rd item in the subsequent list (the only other occurrence of "word" > in this sense). Yes, I have. > > As to the general rules regarding parentheses and end-of-line comments > > in master files, as much as I would like to educate readers about > > them, I don't think that is within the scope of the current document. > > Not sure. If these optional "decorations" were not mentioned in the > normative text here, the reader could be led to the assumption that > the draft text wanted to state an exemption from the general rules > for the case on unknown RR types. RFC1035 says: The format of these files is a sequence of entries. Entries are predominantly line-oriented, though parentheses can be used to continue a list of items across a line boundary, and text literals can contain CRLF within the text. Any combination of tabs and spaces act as a delimiter between the separate items that make up an entry. The end of any line in the master file can end with a comment. The comment starts with a ";" (semicolon). I really don't see how the mere lack of a mention of these rules could be interpreted as stating an exemption from them. RFCs that define new (i.e., known) RR types and their presentation formats also typically don't mention the comment and line continuation syntax explicitly. These aspects of the master file format aren't even specific to RR entries; they apply to any entry including ones like $ORIGIN and $INCLUDE. > >> (3) Change Summary > >> > >> We are going to obsolete RFC 3597 and heading for DS with this draft. > >> IESG rules thus require describing the differences of the memo from > >> its predecessor in some part of the document that is not doomed to be > >> stripped off by the RFC Editor. > >> > >> Therefore, it might be wise to add a section (or Appendix) > >> "Changes Since RFC 3597" that gives a condensed summary of > >> the current Appendix A. > > > > Will do, but I'm still curious as to where these IESG rules are > > documented - do you have a reference? > > I'm not aware of a written statement, but my brain leaks as well. > In general, the well-known rule of "In the IETF it is most important > to know which of the written rules are _not_ applied in practice" > is likely to need an addition "... and which other, unwritten rules > are expected to be followed closely." :-) If that's indeed the case, it would seem to have rather serious implications with regards to the openness of the IETF process. -- Andreas Gustafsson, gson@araneus.fi From sprainingvo3658@balti-grand.ru Fri Feb 19 04:14:39 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20CD728C20D; Fri, 19 Feb 2010 04:14:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -62.714 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-62.714 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, GB_PHARMACY=1, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR=2.426, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001, URIBL_BLACK=20, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id X9uTks4-Ijl2; Fri, 19 Feb 2010 04:14:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from ppp-94-68-115-233.home.otenet.gr (ppp-94-68-115-233.home.otenet.gr [94.68.115.233]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CEC1A28C1E1; Fri, 19 Feb 2010 04:14:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from 94.68.115.233 by mx9.inlife.ru; Fri, 19 Feb 2010 14:14:35 +0200 Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 14:14:35 +0200 From: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: No soft manhood To: Message-ID: <000d01cab15d$196b0780$6400a8c0@sprainingvo3658> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="UTF-8"; reply-type=original Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal Our pharmacy shop provides easy access to quality healthcare services across the world, ensuring that our patients get what they need at a time and a place that is convenient to them. 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All of our products are as effective as any other brand name meds, since they are equally safe and reliable. http://booneubiquityqxb.webs.com/ From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Fri Feb 19 05:29:28 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 154B43A7A68; Fri, 19 Feb 2010 05:29:28 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 2.708 X-Spam-Level: ** X-Spam-Status: No, score=2.708 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.542, BAYES_00=-2.599, CHARSET_FARAWAY_HEADER=3.2, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, HELO_MISMATCH_DE=1.448, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iezW2ak7NR1o; Fri, 19 Feb 2010 05:29:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10D4C3A7255; Fri, 19 Feb 2010 05:29:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NiSsL-000JLh-Vc for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Fri, 19 Feb 2010 13:26:33 +0000 Received: from [213.178.172.147] (helo=TR-Sys.de) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NiSsI-000JKn-2E for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 19 Feb 2010 13:26:31 +0000 Received: from ZEUS.TR-Sys.de by w. with ESMTP ($Revision: 1.37.109.26 $/16.3.2) id AA141725968; Fri, 19 Feb 2010 14:26:08 +0100 Received: (from ah@localhost) by z.TR-Sys.de (8.9.3 (PHNE_25183)/8.7.3) id OAA23036; Fri, 19 Feb 2010 14:26:01 +0100 (MEZ) From: Alfred =?hp-roman8?B?SM5uZXM=?= Message-Id: <201002191326.OAA23036@TR-Sys.de> Subject: [dnsext] Re: polishing of draft-ietf-dnsext-rfc3597-bis-01 To: gson@araneus.fi Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 14:26:01 +0100 (MEZ) Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org In-Reply-To: <19326.31599.959931.733762@guava.gson.org> from Andreas Gustafsson at Feb "19," 2010 "01:52:15" pm X-Mailer: ELM [$Revision: 1.17.214.3 $] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=hp-roman8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: Andreas, thanks for your feedback, again. Follow-up elaborations inline. Andreas Gustafsson wrote: > Alfred Hoenes wrote: >> Well, the improvement IMHO would be the central place to look for >> definitions, making it easier for future documents to include these >> definitions 'en bloc' by reference. > > At this juncture, my main concern is the progress of this document > rather than the ease of writing future ones. If the sentiment of the > working group as a whole is that your proposed change is important, > I will integrate it, but otherwise I would really prefer to leave the > text as is. Hmm. You start confusing me. "At this juncture," ... AFAICS, the draft is not yet short of being shipped. Recent anecdotal evidence from the famous and honorable effort to update/advance email RFCs to Full Standard and voices from the IESG that seem to indicate preference to make editorial improvements earlier, not on the way from PS to FS, I simply thought the current state of _this_ draft would be a good opportunity to apply such improvements. However, I will not insist on this detail. Just my 2 ct. > ... > >>> As to the general rules regarding parentheses and end-of-line comments >>> in master files, as much as I would like to educate readers about >>> them, I don't think that is within the scope of the current document. >> >> Not sure. If these optional "decorations" were not mentioned in the >> normative text here, the reader could be led to the assumption that >> the draft text wanted to state an exemption from the general rules >> for the case on unknown RR types. > > RFC1035 says: > > The format of these files is a sequence of entries. Entries are > predominantly line-oriented, though parentheses can be used to continue > a list of items across a line boundary, and text literals can contain > CRLF within the text. Any combination of tabs and spaces act as a > delimiter between the separate items that make up an entry. The end of > any line in the master file can end with a comment. The comment starts > with a ";" (semicolon). > > I really don't see how the mere lack of a mention of these rules could > be interpreted as stating an exemption from them. RFCs that define > new (i.e., known) RR types and their presentation formats also > typically don't mention the comment and line continuation syntax > explicitly. These aspects of the master file format aren't even > specific to RR entries; they apply to any entry including ones like > $ORIGIN and $INCLUDE. As has been pointed out recently, our old Standards are a treasure of important details folks are not always aware of. :-) Unlike typical new RR type definitions, this memo contains rather concise normative text of the presentation format (on 'unknown' RR types) -- and that is good so and important. Therefore, I saw the risk that readers of section 5 skimming over the passage, The RDATA section of an RR of unknown type is represented as a sequence ofwhite space separated items as follows: [...] could be (mis-)led to the assumption that this text was *overriding* the general rules in RFC 1035. Since DS and FS documents should be even more precise and unambiguous than PS documents, IMO it would be a good idea to add a hint/reminder that the general rules you quote correctly still hold as well for the presentation format of unknown RR types. Once more, just my 2 ct. (or maybe 20 ct., this time). >>>> (3) Change Summary >>>> >>>> [...] [ I'm splitting off this part to a different message. It has turned into a diversion into general IETF practices. Further discussion of that topic most likely should not be pursued on this list, due to its much more general scope. ] Kind regards, Alfred. 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Register and order the most qualitative medications in the world. http://vxmeeksdogleg.webs.com/ From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Fri Feb 19 06:07:05 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 88B1728C283; Fri, 19 Feb 2010 06:07:05 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 2.759 X-Spam-Level: ** X-Spam-Status: No, score=2.759 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.491, BAYES_00=-2.599, CHARSET_FARAWAY_HEADER=3.2, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, HELO_MISMATCH_DE=1.448, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7it-mn2+iqBX; Fri, 19 Feb 2010 06:07:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8633328C280; Fri, 19 Feb 2010 06:07:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NiTRu-000Oyn-KI for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Fri, 19 Feb 2010 14:03:18 +0000 Received: from [213.178.172.147] (helo=TR-Sys.de) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NiTRp-000Ox3-8Z for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 19 Feb 2010 14:03:14 +0000 Received: from ZEUS.TR-Sys.de by w. with ESMTP ($Revision: 1.37.109.26 $/16.3.2) id AA141928173; Fri, 19 Feb 2010 15:02:53 +0100 Received: (from ah@localhost) by z.TR-Sys.de (8.9.3 (PHNE_25183)/8.7.3) id PAA23066; Fri, 19 Feb 2010 15:02:52 +0100 (MEZ) From: Alfred =?hp-roman8?B?SM5uZXM=?= Message-Id: <201002191402.PAA23066@TR-Sys.de> Subject: [dnsext] document requirements and IETF procedures [ was: Re: polishing of draft-ietf-dnsext-rfc3597-bis-01 ] To: gson@araneus.fi, namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 15:02:51 +0100 (MEZ) In-Reply-To: <19326.31599.959931.733762@guava.gson.org> from Andreas Gustafsson at Feb "19," 2010 "01:52:15" pm X-Mailer: ELM [$Revision: 1.17.214.3 $] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=hp-roman8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: This is the part of my follow-up response to Andreas Gustafsson that I have split off since it started to get off-topic. Any more general follow-up discussion should better migrate to a more appropriate list, e.g. the IETF main discussion list. >>>> (3) Change Summary >>>> [ah] >>>> We are going to obsolete RFC 3597 and heading for DS with this draft. >>>> IESG rules thus require describing the differences of the memo from >>>> its predecessor in some part of the document that is not doomed to be >>>> stripped off by the RFC Editor. >>>> >>>> Therefore, it might be wise to add a section (or Appendix) >>>> "Changes Since RFC 3597" that gives a condensed summary of >>>> the current Appendix A. >>> [gson] >>> Will do, but I'm still curious as to where these IESG rules are >>> documented - do you have a reference? >> [ah] >> I'm not aware of a written statement, but my brain leaks as well. >> In general, the well-known rule of "In the IETF it is most important >> to know which of the written rules are _not_ applied in practice" >> is likely to need an addition "... and which other, unwritten rules >> are expected to be followed closely." :-) > [gson] > If that's indeed the case, it would seem to have rather serious > implications with regards to the openness of the IETF process. > -- > Andreas Gustafsson, gson@araneus.fi Regarding openness, I have more serious concerns. (RFC-to-be's held off by IESG intransparently, etc.... ) But that is off-topic here. I'm not sure where I last had read that phrase (flame?) above -- and it essentially doesn't matter here --, I bet it was one of the procedural drafts from Brian Carpenter in which he tried to overcome the road blocks to revising RFC 2026 and adopting it to long standing practice. I am tempted to quote a COMMENT posted yesterday by an AD, with respect to a technical document in the IESG and the IETF procedures followed in its (6 years lasting) genesis, and I challenge its more general applicability to the meta level of IETF procedural standards as well (and so I've elided from the quote all keywords related to the triggering circumstances): "[...] This would seem to imply that the .... WG has decided to deviate from the old IETF operating principle of "rough consensus and running code". For at least some of the techniques described in this draft, they are generally accepted and widely implemented on key implementations. I ask what the reason is for divorcing IETF standards from established best practices and actual running code? ... RFCs are not sacred documents, they should reflect what we want our implementations to do. But maybe there are important use cases for the actual standard ... behavior in this space, just that I don't know about them. Please educate me about the background for this decision." That said, I perhaps should emphasize once more that I appreciate the effort to advance RFC 3597 on the Standards Track (and thereby follow RFC 2026 in this case, albeight with a less tight schedule). Kind regards, Alfred. 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Try us now and get caplets or supplements on the best prices! http://img97.imageshack.us/img97/6853/otano.swf From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Fri Feb 19 09:03:40 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB6F528C31E; Fri, 19 Feb 2010 09:03:40 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.527 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.527 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.927, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_INFO=1.448, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PjnLIGnZNJiL; Fri, 19 Feb 2010 09:03:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4288728C315; Fri, 19 Feb 2010 09:03:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NiW9H-0003Om-1t for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Fri, 19 Feb 2010 16:56:15 +0000 Received: from [208.86.224.201] (helo=mail.yitter.info) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:CAMELLIA256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NiW9D-0003Nr-Dx for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 19 Feb 2010 16:56:11 +0000 Received: from crankycanuck.ca (69-196-144-230.dsl.teksavvy.com [69.196.144.230]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.yitter.info (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 1B45F1ECBC22 for ; Fri, 19 Feb 2010 16:56:10 +0000 (UTC) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 11:56:08 -0500 From: Andrew Sullivan To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] Draft: WGLC draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-tcp-requirements Message-ID: <20100219165608.GD46803@shinkuro.com> References: <201002181317.OAA20214@TR-Sys.de> <6B738B7B-4E97-4973-B385-4DA030384649@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> <59243.1266510694@nsa.vix.com> <4B7D929C.70901@gont.com.ar> <73980.1266521075@nsa.vix.com> <63374DEBA0C347458403B9364029A914@localhost> <420D825130D55974F4C56E7C@Ximines.local> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <420D825130D55974F4C56E7C@Ximines.local> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: No hat On Fri, Feb 19, 2010 at 09:39:49AM +0000, Alex Bligh wrote: > > > --On 19 February 2010 08:32:44 +0000 Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk wrote: > >> I *think* everyone's concerns about §5 can be addressed simply by adding >> "or reset" after "unilaterally close" for clarity, per the 1035 text. I >> don't think the TCP resource state differences between FIN/RST needs to >> be addressed here. > > I wonder if adding something like "This behaviour is subject to the > requirements of the prevailing TCP RFCs" (or similar) would put people's > mind at rest that the intention is not to change the TCP RFCs. I think that's key, but I'd also really like to see something that points out the basic assumptions Paul Vixie outlines up-thread. A completely plausible reading of STD13, or even RFC 2181, is that even if TCP is required it's going to be unusual and not the standard mode of operation. I am on board with those who think modifying the document to include encouragement of unilaterally closing the connection needs to be undertaken with great care, and I think if there will be test to encourage RST further (and I read Ray's proposal as such encouragement), we ought to have some words that recommend it be used very carefully. All of that said, I'm persuaded that indeed the 1035 text permits RST without much qualification, and I'm ashamed to have missed that before. A -- Andrew Sullivan ajs@shinkuro.com Shinkuro, Inc. 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We create the highest quality range of Vertu replicas in the market, easily distinguishable by the high level of finish as well as the firmware and software, which are identical to the originals http://volta31.spaces.live.com From reorganizesxa@delocorp.net Fri Feb 19 10:02:45 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0561B28C20C for ; Fri, 19 Feb 2010 10:02:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -61.633 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-61.633 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_80=2, FH_FAKE_RCVD_LINE_B=5.777, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HELO_DYNAMIC_HCC=4.295, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2=4.395, HELO_EQ_BR=0.955, HELO_EQ_DSL=1.129, HELO_EQ_TELESP=1.245, HOST_EQ_BR=1.295, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_RECV_SPAM_DOMN02=1.666, SARE_SPEC_REPLICA_OBFU=1.812, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.931, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mFyikjtZzE1O for ; Fri, 19 Feb 2010 10:02:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from 189-46-94-37.dsl.telesp.net.br (189-46-94-37.dsl.telesp.net.br [189.46.94.37]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F16728C2D2 for ; Fri, 19 Feb 2010 10:02:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from 189.46.94.37 by delocorp.net; Fri, 19 Feb 2010 15:04:31 -0300 Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 15:04:31 -0300 From: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: Hey really nice solution. Vertu for chep To: Message-ID: <000d01cab18d$fc6fc950$6400a8c0@reorganizesxa> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-2"; reply-type=original Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal Creating the perfect replica Designer phones is our most involved, complex and dedicated pursuit. Beneath the slick polished exterior of a Vertu, lies the complicated and precise interior chipset and software. To replicate them well requires a high level of expertise, and thats exactly where we seek to differentiate ourselves from our competitors. We create the highest quality range of Vertu replicas in the market, easily distinguishable by the high level of finish as well as the firmware and software, which are identical to the originals http://volta31.spaces.live.com From dnsop-bounces@ietf.org Fri Feb 19 10:02:47 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dnsext-archive@ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27DF628C20A for ; Fri, 19 Feb 2010 10:02:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: The results of your email commands From: dnsop-bounces@ietf.org To: dnsext-archive@ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0747102668==" Message-ID: Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 10:02:45 -0800 Precedence: bulk X-BeenThere: dnsop@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 List-Id: IETF DNSOP WG mailing list X-List-Administrivia: yes Sender: dnsop-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: dnsop-bounces@ietf.org --===============0747102668== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The results of your email command are provided below. Attached is your original message. - Unprocessed: http://volta31.spaces.live.com - Done. --===============0747102668== Content-Type: message/rfc822 MIME-Version: 1.0 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dnsop-request@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: dnsop-request@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D04128C20C; Fri, 19 Feb 2010 10:02:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -61.633 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-61.633 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_80=2, FH_FAKE_RCVD_LINE_B=5.777, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HELO_DYNAMIC_HCC=4.295, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2=4.395, HELO_EQ_BR=0.955, HELO_EQ_DSL=1.129, HELO_EQ_TELESP=1.245, HOST_EQ_BR=1.295, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_RECV_SPAM_DOMN02=1.666, SARE_SPEC_REPLICA_OBFU=1.812, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.931, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xZFiInbHE0+u; Fri, 19 Feb 2010 10:02:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from 189-46-94-37.dsl.telesp.net.br (189-46-94-37.dsl.telesp.net.br [189.46.94.37]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9C9328C13E; Fri, 19 Feb 2010 10:02:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from 189.46.94.37 by ASPMX5.GOOGLEMAIL.com; Fri, 19 Feb 2010 15:04:29 -0300 Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 15:04:29 -0300 From: dnsext-archive@ietf.org Subject: Hey really nice solution. Vertu for chep To: Message-ID: <000d01cab18d$fb3b40f0$6400a8c0@spillwaysaibx3258> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal Creating the perfect replica Designer phones is our most involved, complex and dedicated pursuit. Beneath the slick polished exterior of a Vertu, lies the complicated and precise interior chipset and software. To replicate them well requires a high level of expertise, and thats exactly where we seek to differentiate ourselves from our competitors. We create the highest quality range of Vertu replicas in the market, easily distinguishable by the high level of finish as well as the firmware and software, which are identical to the originals http://volta31.spaces.live.com --===============0747102668==-- From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Fri Feb 19 10:04:05 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF7803A81AC; Fri, 19 Feb 2010 10:04:04 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.666 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.666 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.067, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZjYrp1DiekPC; Fri, 19 Feb 2010 10:04:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05D043A7FD1; Fri, 19 Feb 2010 10:04:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NiX9H-000DAr-He for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Fri, 19 Feb 2010 18:00:19 +0000 Received: from [2001:4f8:3:bb:230:48ff:fe5a:2f38] (helo=nsa.vix.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:CAMELLIA256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NiX9F-000DAa-EA for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 19 Feb 2010 18:00:17 +0000 Received: from nsa.vix.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nsa.vix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21E47AA1A5 for ; Fri, 19 Feb 2010 18:00:17 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vixie@nsa.vix.com) From: Paul Vixie To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] Draft: WGLC draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-tcp-requirements In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri\, 19 Feb 2010 08\:32\:44 GMT." References: <201002181317.OAA20214@TR-Sys.de> <6B738B7B-4E97-4973-B385-4DA030384649@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> <59243.1266510694@nsa.vix.com> <4B7D929C.70901@gont.com.ar> <73980.1266521075@nsa.vix.com> <63374DEBA0C347458403B9364029A914@localhost> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.1; nil; GNU Emacs 22.2.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 18:00:17 +0000 Message-ID: <45135.1266602417@nsa.vix.com> Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: > From: Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk > Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 08:32:44 +0000 >=20 > > RFC 1035 states: > >=20 > > - If the server needs to close a dormant connection to reclaim > > resources, it should wait until the connection has been idle > > for a period on the order of two minutes. In particular, the > > server should allow the SOA and AXFR request sequence (which > > begins a refresh operation) to be made on a single connection. > > Since the server would be unable to answer queries anyway, a > > unilateral close or reset may be used instead of a graceful > > close. >=20 > Indeed, the protocol does already appear to allow a RST to close a=20 > connection in those circumstances. after the two minute timeout, you mean. so we can avoid TIME_WAIT. > I *think* everyone's concerns about =A75 can be addressed simply by addin= g=20 > "or reset" after "unilaterally close" for clarity, per the 1035 text. I= =20 > don't think the TCP resource state differences between FIN/RST needs to b= e=20 > addressed here. if you're allowing RST after a two minute idle timeout, it's not a protocol change. if you're allowing RST for congestion-oriente dconnection manageme= nt that would be a protocol change (not a clarification or other restatement.) From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Fri Feb 19 10:22:00 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5C0D3A7D40; Fri, 19 Feb 2010 10:22:00 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.662 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.662 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.062, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZIJGP0o6Y9lQ; Fri, 19 Feb 2010 10:22:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22D313A7D20; Fri, 19 Feb 2010 10:22:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NiXQS-000G3o-9H for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Fri, 19 Feb 2010 18:18:04 +0000 Received: from [2001:4f8:3:bb:230:48ff:fe5a:2f38] (helo=nsa.vix.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:CAMELLIA256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NiXQQ-000G3a-7n for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 19 Feb 2010 18:18:02 +0000 Received: from nsa.vix.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nsa.vix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01A3BAA27A for ; Fri, 19 Feb 2010 18:18:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vixie@nsa.vix.com) From: Paul Vixie To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] Draft: WGLC draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-tcp-requirements In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 19 Feb 2010 11:56:08 EST." <20100219165608.GD46803@shinkuro.com> References: <201002181317.OAA20214@TR-Sys.de> <6B738B7B-4E97-4973-B385-4DA030384649@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> <59243.1266510694@nsa.vix.com> <4B7D929C.70901@gont.com.ar> <73980.1266521075@nsa.vix.com> <63374DEBA0C347458403B9364029A914@localhost> <420D825130D55974F4C56E7C@Ximines.local> <20100219165608.GD46803@shinkuro.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.1; nil; GNU Emacs 22.2.1 Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 18:18:01 +0000 Message-ID: <45836.1266603481@nsa.vix.com> Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: > Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 11:56:08 -0500 > From: Andrew Sullivan > > All of that said, I'm persuaded that indeed the 1035 text permits RST > without much qualification, and I'm ashamed to have missed that before. don't be ashamed, because it doesn't matter. you can wait 3*MSL or you can wait two minutes, but either way the server has to hold some state for a long while after any simple query, no matter who initiates the close or why. changing TCP/53 to allow congestion-driven server-initiated unilateral-close would *not* be a clarification, it would be a completely new way of working. From sorrowlr9@macrocosm-invest.ru Fri Feb 19 11:01:33 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8F0A3A7321; Fri, 19 Feb 2010 11:01:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -74.462 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-74.462 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2=4.395, HELO_EQ_BR=0.955, HOST_EQ_BR=1.295, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.931, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Kmw+1m1xgkO6; Fri, 19 Feb 2010 11:01:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from 189-109-32-118.ultrawave.com.br (189-109-32-118.ultrawave.com.br [189.109.32.118]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0CF253A69F4; Fri, 19 Feb 2010 11:01:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from 189.109.32.118 by mail.macrocosm-invest.ru; Fri, 19 Feb 2010 16:01:26 -0300 Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 16:01:26 -0300 From: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: Best phone in the world good price To: Message-ID: <000d01cab195$efed4bf0$6400a8c0@sorrowlr9> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-2"; reply-type=original Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal Vertu creates phones for discerning individuals who demand the best in everything they buy. The product of years of development, each Vertu is a complex masterpiece. It combines the finest materials with the highest traditions of craftsmanship. While other phones are mass produced by the millions, a Vertu is hand-built in England, one at a time. Inevitably, Vertu can only make such phones in very limited numbers: each one is rare, precious and highly exclusive. http://hatteras5434.spaces.live.com From sorrowlr9@macrocosm-invest.ru Fri Feb 19 11:01:33 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8F0A3A7321; Fri, 19 Feb 2010 11:01:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -74.462 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-74.462 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2=4.395, HELO_EQ_BR=0.955, HOST_EQ_BR=1.295, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.931, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Kmw+1m1xgkO6; Fri, 19 Feb 2010 11:01:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from 189-109-32-118.ultrawave.com.br (189-109-32-118.ultrawave.com.br [189.109.32.118]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0CF253A69F4; Fri, 19 Feb 2010 11:01:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from 189.109.32.118 by mail.macrocosm-invest.ru; Fri, 19 Feb 2010 16:01:26 -0300 Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 16:01:26 -0300 From: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: Best phone in the world good price To: Message-ID: <000d01cab195$efed4bf0$6400a8c0@sorrowlr9> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-2"; reply-type=original Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal Vertu creates phones for discerning individuals who demand the best in everything they buy. The product of years of development, each Vertu is a complex masterpiece. It combines the finest materials with the highest traditions of craftsmanship. While other phones are mass produced by the millions, a Vertu is hand-built in England, one at a time. Inevitably, Vertu can only make such phones in very limited numbers: each one is rare, precious and highly exclusive. http://hatteras5434.spaces.live.com From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Fri Feb 19 12:19:19 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D0BF28C110; Fri, 19 Feb 2010 12:19:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 2.807 X-Spam-Level: ** X-Spam-Status: No, score=2.807 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.443, BAYES_00=-2.599, CHARSET_FARAWAY_HEADER=3.2, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, HELO_MISMATCH_DE=1.448, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id p6x-cTVteLUf; Fri, 19 Feb 2010 12:19:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 469C928C0DB; Fri, 19 Feb 2010 12:19:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NiZEQ-0006zF-3b for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Fri, 19 Feb 2010 20:13:46 +0000 Received: from [213.178.172.147] (helo=TR-Sys.de) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NiZEM-0006vz-Q2 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 19 Feb 2010 20:13:44 +0000 Received: from ZEUS.TR-Sys.de by w. with ESMTP ($Revision: 1.37.109.26 $/16.3.2) id AA143780397; Fri, 19 Feb 2010 21:13:17 +0100 Received: (from ah@localhost) by z.TR-Sys.de (8.9.3 (PHNE_25183)/8.7.3) id VAA23616; Fri, 19 Feb 2010 21:13:16 +0100 (MEZ) From: Alfred =?hp-roman8?B?SM5uZXM=?= Message-Id: <201002192013.VAA23616@TR-Sys.de> Subject: Re: [dnsext] Draft: WGLC draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-tcp-requirements To: dean@av8.com Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 21:13:15 +0100 (MEZ) Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org In-Reply-To: from Dean Anderson at Feb "19," 2010 "02:16:58" pm X-Mailer: ELM [$Revision: 1.17.214.3 $] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=hp-roman8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: Dean, You wrote: > ... > > However there remain two related unresolved complaints: > > 1. The IETF has known for many years that TCP is not stable under > Anycast conditions, but has covered up that fact through threats, > intimidation, and censorship to perpetuate a fraud conducted by sale of > Root and TLD anycast services. > > 2. The IETF is a government consultant to the Department of Commerce > IANA function operated by ICANN on the subject of operation of Root DNS > servers. The IETF has knowingly deceived the government about the > stability of TCP DNS on Anycast Root DNS servers. > > Dean Anderson > IETF DNSEXT participant > AV8 Internet, Inc May I suggest we return to the principles putting emphasis on running code? Warming up old stories doesn't help in practice. We need facts. Opinions vary on whether there once has been a problem in practice. There _may_ have been significant advances in running code, in the interim. Who knows for sure? Both local anycast solutions (load balancer technology) and routing technology and performance have evolved. Currently, the biggest experiment ever seen to challenge anycast DNS/TCP behavior *in practice* has started (DURZ deployment). We do not need to escape to abstract claims any more; we should *observe* and measure -- yes, we can (now)! The gradual increase in TCP load on the root and TLDs already using DNSSEC gives *all* parties a reasonable chance to provide fresh evidence of current behavior. The root server operators show their figures. Many TLD operators show their figures. DNS-OARC colects and consolidates data. If you believe that notwithstanding current technology and running code your concerns still are valid _and_ you do not trust these figures, you would best serve your own interest and the interest of the Internet at large if you started monitoring and try to provide evidence; I'm sure other stakeholders (operators of large recursive nameservers, for instance) will have a basic interest in evidence of problems, *if they exists*, and will certainly collect data on their own. Everybody is invited to contribute. The raw data need to be analysed and failure classes and reasons determined. That are operational topics not of genuine interest for the namedroppers list. As long as there is no reasonable evidence that there indeed is a problem at the *protocol level* *today*, I suggest that discussion of measurement results and analysis be carried out on DNSOP. Thanks! Kind regards, Alfred. -- +------------------------+--------------------------------------------+ | TR-Sys Alfred Hoenes | Alfred Hoenes Dipl.-Math., Dipl.-Phys. | | Gerlinger Strasse 12 | Phone: (+49)7156/9635-0, Fax: -18 | | D-71254 Ditzingen | E-Mail: ah@TR-Sys.de | +------------------------+--------------------------------------------+ From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Fri Feb 19 13:51:58 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13B7B28C11B; Fri, 19 Feb 2010 13:51:58 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.658 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.658 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.059, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id giu9bPaUx8fT; Fri, 19 Feb 2010 13:51:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27DC228C110; Fri, 19 Feb 2010 13:51:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NiahR-000JI9-EK for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Fri, 19 Feb 2010 21:47:49 +0000 Received: from [2001:4f8:3:bb:230:48ff:fe5a:2f38] (helo=nsa.vix.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:CAMELLIA256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NiahP-000JHw-F9 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 19 Feb 2010 21:47:47 +0000 Received: from nsa.vix.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nsa.vix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F385AA29A for ; Fri, 19 Feb 2010 21:47:47 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vixie@nsa.vix.com) From: Paul Vixie To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] Draft: WGLC draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-tcp-requirements In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 19 Feb 2010 21:13:15 +0100." <201002192013.VAA23616@TR-Sys.de> References: <201002192013.VAA23616@TR-Sys.de> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.1; nil; GNU Emacs 22.2.1 Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 21:47:47 +0000 Message-ID: <54369.1266616067@nsa.vix.com> Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: > From: Alfred =?hp-roman8?B?SM5uZXM=?= > Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 21:13:15 +0100 (MEZ) > > Dean, > > You wrote: > > ... > ... please don't feed the trolls. From rectificationc@mam.dawap.ru Fri Feb 19 14:02:59 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 594663A7B89; Fri, 19 Feb 2010 14:02:59 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -67.463 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-67.463 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HELO_DYNAMIC_HCC=4.295, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2=4.395, HELO_EQ_BR=0.955, HELO_EQ_DSL=1.129, HELO_EQ_TELESP=1.245, HOST_EQ_BR=1.295, PRICES_ARE_AFFORDABLE=0.001, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_RECV_SPAM_DOMN02=1.666, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.931, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xhof5tg8pS6u; Fri, 19 Feb 2010 14:02:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from 201-43-216-171.dsl.telesp.net.br (201-43-216-171.dsl.telesp.net.br [201.43.216.171]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB4993A7B78; Fri, 19 Feb 2010 14:02:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from 201.43.216.171 by photo.mam.dawap.ru; Fri, 19 Feb 2010 19:03:14 -0300 Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 19:03:14 -0300 From: directory-bounces@ietf.org Subject: Confirm your order To: Message-ID: <000d01cab1af$55af85c0$6400a8c0@rectificationc> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="UTF-8"; reply-type=original Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal Put your money back in your pocket! 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Affordable prices - best medicants! http://azalea6427.spaces.live.com From dnsext-archive@ietf.org Fri Feb 19 19:51:43 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6AE433A7F3B for ; Fri, 19 Feb 2010 19:51:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR=2.426, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_24=1.552, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_02=0.383, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, NUMERIC_HTTP_ADDR=0.001, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_FROM_DRUGS=1.666, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_OB_SURBL=10, URIBL_SBL=20, URI_HEX=0.368, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XAn9fsAs9xoa for ; Fri, 19 Feb 2010 19:51:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from ppp-58-11-32-248.revip2.asianet.co.th (ppp-58-11-32-248.revip2.asianet.co.th [58.11.32.248]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99F1F3A7A03 for ; Fri, 19 Feb 2010 19:51:41 -0800 (PST) From: "VIAGRA from Pfizer" To: dnsext-archive@ietf.org Subject: dnsext-archive Winter -80% Deals Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <20100220035141.99F1F3A7A03@core3.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 19:51:41 -0800 (PST) December 2009
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From dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Fri Feb 19 19:51:52 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 593483A7F3B for ; Fri, 19 Feb 2010 19:51:52 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.911 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.911 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR=2.426, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_24=1.552, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_02=0.383, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_FROM_DRUGS=1.666, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_OB_SURBL=10, URIBL_SBL=20, URI_HEX=0.368, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3DT4kjx82cPz for ; Fri, 19 Feb 2010 19:51:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from ppp-58-11-32-248.revip2.asianet.co.th (ppp-58-11-32-248.revip2.asianet.co.th [58.11.32.248]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E86B3A7A03 for ; Fri, 19 Feb 2010 19:51:50 -0800 (PST) From: "VIAGRA from Pfizer" To: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: dnsext-archive Winter -80% Deals Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <20100220035150.8E86B3A7A03@core3.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 19:51:50 -0800 (PST) December 2009
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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Sat Feb 20 02:46:09 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A3853A8106; Sat, 20 Feb 2010 02:46:09 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oTpBsrdFusjJ; Sat, 20 Feb 2010 02:46:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D7B43A8104; Sat, 20 Feb 2010 02:46:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nimli-0004nX-0s for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Sat, 20 Feb 2010 10:41:02 +0000 Received: from [2001:478:6:0:230:48ff:fe11:220a] (helo=vacation.karoshi.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NimlV-0004aS-UR for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Sat, 20 Feb 2010 10:40:56 +0000 Received: from karoshi.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by vacation.karoshi.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o1KAKYcY017736; Sat, 20 Feb 2010 10:20:34 GMT Received: (from bmanning@localhost) by karoshi.com (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id o1KAKO3A017735; Sat, 20 Feb 2010 10:20:24 GMT Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2010 10:20:24 +0000 From: bmanning@vacation.karoshi.com To: Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk Cc: Alfred =?iso-8859-1?Q?H=F6nes?= , fernando@gont.com.ar, namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] Draft: WGLC draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-tcp-requirements Message-ID: <20100220102024.GC16126@vacation.karoshi.com.> References: <201002181317.OAA20214@TR-Sys.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: > > But I would prefer to not simply strike the "TBD" in ... > > > > This document therefore RECOMMENDS that the application-level idle > > period should be of the order of TBD seconds. > > > > ... as others have suggested; "tens of seconds" (or even more) > > seems to be more appropriate (see below). > > This is straying into "pick a number" territory (which I'm trying to > avoid), and covers all the way up to the current 120s. > > My own view (for what it's worth) is that I really mean seconds (i.e. 2, > 4, etc), and not "tens of" seconds. unless you place an upper bound (pick a number) then you can't complain when I set, in my implementation, a value of 8264000 seconds. this is tricky - since the timeout value has quite a bit to do with the prevaling network infrastrcuture. back in the 1980s a 120s timeout was credible, given the clock rates on end-nodes and the link speeds - typically 56k and 64k speeds. Todays network runs at much higher clock rates and link speeds. - generally what I suspect is that in the next 20 years, what we will see is a network that spans a much wider range of clock speeds and link rate - and I am concerned about "impedence" mismatch on timeout values. > Ray From dmailer.ok@ietf.org Sat Feb 20 03:47:37 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A45D328C113 for ; Sat, 20 Feb 2010 03:47:37 -0800 (PST) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char C2 hex): From: Approved VIAGRA\302\256 Store ; Sat, 20 Feb 2010 03:47:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from aitrui.com (unknown [193.34.172.146]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 9A8C028C106 for ; Sat, 20 Feb 2010 03:47:26 -0800 (PST) From: Approved VIAGRA® Store Subject: Special Code for 71% for dnsext-archive@ietf.org To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20100220114729.9A8C028C106@core3.amsl.com> Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2010 03:47:26 -0800 (PST)
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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Sat Feb 20 04:03:18 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E78AB3A80FD; Sat, 20 Feb 2010 04:03:18 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.907 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.907 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-2.412, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ivAD3CZQoe95; Sat, 20 Feb 2010 04:03:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DB4A3A80FB; Sat, 20 Feb 2010 04:03:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nio07-000Ecb-O7 for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Sat, 20 Feb 2010 11:59:59 +0000 Received: from [89.16.176.221] (helo=mail.avalus.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nio01-000Ec2-Ai for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Sat, 20 Feb 2010 11:59:54 +0000 Received: from [192.168.100.136] (87-194-71-186.bethere.co.uk [87.194.71.186]) by mail.avalus.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4BA2AC5641A; Sat, 20 Feb 2010 11:59:51 +0000 (GMT) Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2010 11:59:58 +0000 From: Alex Bligh Reply-To: Alex Bligh To: Olafur Gudmundsson , namedroppers cc: Alex Bligh Subject: Re: [dnsext] Draft: WGLC draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-tcp-requirements Message-ID: <9469FDD5B67D929992A193EC@nimrod.local> In-Reply-To: <4B79D64C.1050702@ogud.com> References: <4B79D64C.1050702@ogud.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Mac OS X) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: --On 15 February 2010 18:18:36 -0500 Olafur Gudmundsson wrote: > http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dnsext/draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-tcp-requirements/ Technical > 1. Introduction > > Most DNS [RFC1035] transactions take place over UDP [RFC0792]. The > TCP [RFC0793] is used for zone transfers and for the transfer of > other packets which exceed the protocol's original 512 byte packet- > size limit. I think this suggests that TCP is currently only used for zone transfers and oversized transfers. Suggest "is typically used". > 3. Discussion > ... > Worse still, > some devices deliberately refuse to handle DNS packets containing > EDNS0 options. I think you should be clear you are referring to middleboxes here, rather than simply a client or server which does not support EDNS0, as no amount of making TCP compulsory will fix ancient deployed clients/servers. > This document therefore RECOMMENDS that the application-level idle > period should be of the order of TBD seconds. > > Servers MAY allow dormant connections to remain open for longer > periods, but for the avoidance of doubt persistent DNS connections > should generally be considered to be as much for the server's benefit > as for the client's. Therefore if the server needs to unilaterally > close a dormant TCP connection it MUST be free to do so whenever > required. Apart from the missing TBD, there is a subtle rewording going on. The original said: If the server needs to close a dormant connection to reclaim resources, it should wait until the connection has been idle for a period on the order of two minutes. That implies to me me that the server SHOULD wait *at least* a period of the order of 2 minutes. Waiting 10 or 50 minutes would be fine, at least as long as the server did not "need" to close the dormant connection to reclaim resources. Your first para suggests that the application should close the dormant connection whether it needs to reclaim resources or not. However, you go on to modify this with a second paragraph, which says they MAY keep it open for longer. I understand the last line of the second paragraph at all; what is the normative value of "MUST be free to" other than a disguised "MAY"? What I think you are saying is that there is still no upper bound, but a well behaved client might choose to leave the connection open for the benefit of the server as well as the client, but no one should take umbrage if the server closes it. I would also suggest that rather than referring to an "application-level idle period" you actually specify what the server may/should do. I would try something like this: A client MAY close a connection at any time when no further response is requested from the server. A client MAY choose to leave a dormant connection open either for a set period of time or indefinitely; such an action is as much for the benefit of the server as the client, as repeated bring up and tear down of connections may increase server load. A server MAY unilaterally close a connection which has been dormant for at least [5] seconds, whether to reduce socket congestion or for other reasons. Nothing in this section is intended to alter the meaning of any TCP RFCs. For the purpose of this paragraph, a dormant connection is one on which no application layer traffic has traversed in either direction (i.e. ignoring transport layer keep-alives). I am against "of the order of seconds". I think it needs a number of some sort. It is far less problematic to specify a number if it is clear that this is a minimum idle time, and there is no problem waiting longer; the current draft is ambiguous in this respect. Nits: > 1. Introduction > > Most DNS [RFC1035] transactions take place over UDP [RFC0792]. The > TCP [RFC0793] is used for zone transfers and for the transfer of > other packets which exceed the protocol's original 512 byte packet- > size limit. "The TCP" seems odd, though perhaps technically correct. Drop "the"? > Whilst this document makes no specific recommendations to operators > of DNS servers, it should be noted that failure to support TCP (or > blocking of DNS over TCP at the network layer) may result in > resolution failure and application-level timeouts. I think the last "and" should be an "or" or an "and/or". > 4. Transport Protocol Selection > ... > An exception may be made for proprietary stub resolver > implementations. Subject to nroff limitations, I think this exception is only an exception to the third bullet immediately preceding it, so probably should be appended to that. > 7. Security Considerations > ... > The vast majority of TLD authority servers and all but one of the > root name servers already support TCP and the author knows of no > evidence to suggest that TCP-based DoS attacks against existing DNS > infrastructure are commonplace. Change "already" to "at the time of writing" -- Alex Bligh From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Sat Feb 20 04:05:46 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7129A3A7CA1; Sat, 20 Feb 2010 04:05:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.687 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.687 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-2.192, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GYn0JPCPjk+d; Sat, 20 Feb 2010 04:05:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6CC6C3A67DB; Sat, 20 Feb 2010 04:05:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nio4P-000FEh-6A for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Sat, 20 Feb 2010 12:04:25 +0000 Received: from [89.16.176.221] (helo=mail.avalus.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nio4L-000FEH-A0 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Sat, 20 Feb 2010 12:04:21 +0000 Received: from [192.168.100.136] (87-194-71-186.bethere.co.uk [87.194.71.186]) by mail.avalus.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 5B4DEC563AE; Sat, 20 Feb 2010 12:04:20 +0000 (GMT) Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2010 12:04:27 +0000 From: Alex Bligh Reply-To: Alex Bligh To: Alex Bligh , Olafur Gudmundsson , namedroppers cc: Alex Bligh Subject: Re: [dnsext] Draft: WGLC draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-tcp-requirements Message-ID: <0B61F1DED4B8D2110722F803@nimrod.local> In-Reply-To: <9469FDD5B67D929992A193EC@nimrod.local> References: <4B79D64C.1050702@ogud.com> <9469FDD5B67D929992A193EC@nimrod.local> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Mac OS X) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: --On 20 February 2010 11:59:58 +0000 Alex Bligh wrote: > For the purpose of this paragraph, a dormant connection is one on > which no application layer traffic has traversed in either > direction (i.e. ignoring transport layer keep-alives). "is one which no application-layer traffic has traversed" And apologies for making it look like I thought Olafur wrote the draft not Ray. -- Alex Bligh From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Sat Feb 20 07:01:58 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA84B28C146; Sat, 20 Feb 2010 07:01:58 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.495 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.495 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rjFFAyFqBQbg; Sat, 20 Feb 2010 07:01:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 793B63A6FF9; Sat, 20 Feb 2010 07:01:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Niqly-000E8P-RZ for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Sat, 20 Feb 2010 14:57:34 +0000 Received: from [209.85.210.180] (helo=mail-yx0-f180.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Niqlv-000E80-IT for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Sat, 20 Feb 2010 14:57:31 +0000 Received: by yxe10 with SMTP id 10so1147521yxe.33 for ; Sat, 20 Feb 2010 06:57:30 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from :user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=PshMTN5eIdlj6qfw00chGuPGArzj2JmMOvVkrMWorLc=; b=heBhV0uOTYVC3utUBlcz4keCytM5Rs8r3dFlYK4/oeYcgNZ6F0ctXpXX98LxzN5wMd OsDKT//+gLNNcxFmCrjLqX/4s1zB1iF+lmmXasVNSvFNiqx2fXnbihs0NcSYSbx6YT0+ UKIeyGslBeBP6gIZygjqV0nKslUcwhyITFRaY= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject :references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=Wt95mEZJPRynj7ppaLzQWA2PDUVDw06Yosz+ZamE/tE0FunG8kQXeb/GuSefKEkfyV 2IPZCQlykSkUL5sChdbsC2+aOBmlpmEL++W6GOgcp9kMx43qw8r+IfSF9gcr7sBb5x+6 l4dea5e4/Ciy+uqR8Y7ZDtn6TaRU5WaN8ENTg= Received: by 10.150.194.16 with SMTP id r16mr520788ybf.194.1266677849807; Sat, 20 Feb 2010 06:57:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from Wastrel.local (c-68-40-195-221.hsd1.mi.comcast.net [68.40.195.221]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 7sm605832yxg.32.2010.02.20.06.57.27 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Sat, 20 Feb 2010 06:57:28 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4B7FF856.7010201@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2010 09:57:26 -0500 From: William Allen Simpson User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Macintosh/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bmanning@vacation.karoshi.com CC: Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk, =?UTF-8?B?QWxmcmVkIEjDtm5lcw==?= , fernando@gont.com.ar, namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] timeouts: WGLC draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-tcp-requirements References: <201002181317.OAA20214@TR-Sys.de> <20100220102024.GC16126@vacation.karoshi.com.> In-Reply-To: <20100220102024.GC16126@vacation.karoshi.com.> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: While I support the overall purpose of this draft, it seems to me that this needs considerable word-smithing before it is ready. bmanning@vacation.karoshi.com wrote: >>> But I would prefer to not simply strike the "TBD" in ... >>> >>> This document therefore RECOMMENDS that the application-level idle >>> period should be of the order of TBD seconds. >>> >>> ... as others have suggested; "tens of seconds" (or even more) >>> seems to be more appropriate (see below). >> This is straying into "pick a number" territory (which I'm trying to >> avoid), and covers all the way up to the current 120s. >> >> My own view (for what it's worth) is that I really mean seconds (i.e. 2, >> 4, etc), and not "tens of" seconds. > > unless you place an upper bound (pick a number) then > you can't complain when I set, in my implementation, > a value of 8264000 seconds. > > this is tricky - since the timeout value has quite a bit to > do with the prevaling network infrastrcuture. back in the 1980s > a 120s timeout was credible, given the clock rates on end-nodes > and the link speeds - typically 56k and 64k speeds. Todays network > runs at much higher clock rates and link speeds. - generally > Wow, Bill was a lucky guy! Around here, in the '80s, the IP backbone may have had speeds of 56K, but we were using 110 bps and 300 bps dialup, and inter-departmental connectivity was gradually upgrading from 1200 bps Racal-Vadic "triple modems" to very expensive 2400 bps ($6,000 apiece). The 300 bps modem banks weren't retired until the '90s. This specification MUST NOT change the current two minutes (120 seconds) to a shorter time period. However, there is a perfectly good TCP option that deals with this issue, and that SHOULD be referenced here: TCP User Timeout Option [RFC 5482]. > what I suspect is that in the next 20 years, what we will see is > a network that spans a much wider range of clock speeds and link > rate - and I am concerned about "impedence" mismatch on timeout > values. > UTO can negotiate this, transparently to both parties. From dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Sat Feb 20 07:14:49 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91A153A7CD2 for ; Sat, 20 Feb 2010 07:14:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.807 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.807 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2=4.395, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_16=1.526, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_02=0.383, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_2=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.931, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_OB_SURBL=10, URIBL_SBL=20, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, URI_HEX=0.368, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5azeLPPpDEyd for ; Sat, 20 Feb 2010 07:14:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from 79-78-235-201.fibertel.com.ar (79-78-235-201.fibertel.com.ar [201.235.78.79]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 571AB28C149 for ; Sat, 20 Feb 2010 07:14:42 -0800 (PST) From: "Authorized Pillstore" To: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: Hello, dnsext-archive, check our 80% Sale MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20100220151442.571AB28C149@core3.amsl.com> Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2010 07:14:42 -0800 (PST)
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From dnsext-archive@ietf.org Sat Feb 20 07:14:49 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99E9528C146 for ; Sat, 20 Feb 2010 07:14:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.807 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.807 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2=4.395, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_16=1.526, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_02=0.383, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_2=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.931, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_OB_SURBL=10, URIBL_SBL=20, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, URI_HEX=0.368, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tS8Ojp-a8rzF for ; Sat, 20 Feb 2010 07:14:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from 79-78-235-201.fibertel.com.ar (79-78-235-201.fibertel.com.ar [201.235.78.79]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8ECA43A72EC for ; Sat, 20 Feb 2010 07:14:44 -0800 (PST) From: "Authorized Pillstore" To: dnsext-archive@ietf.org Subject: Hello, dnsext-archive, check our 80% Sale MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20100220151444.8ECA43A72EC@core3.amsl.com> Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2010 07:14:44 -0800 (PST)
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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Sat Feb 20 07:29:09 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 239AF28C15A; Sat, 20 Feb 2010 07:29:09 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.495 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.495 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KQT32tULYPYV; Sat, 20 Feb 2010 07:29:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3AD0828C0F4; Sat, 20 Feb 2010 07:29:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NirET-000ICC-BT for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Sat, 20 Feb 2010 15:27:01 +0000 Received: from [74.125.83.52] (helo=mail-gw0-f52.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NirER-000IBx-0S for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Sat, 20 Feb 2010 15:26:59 +0000 Received: by gwb1 with SMTP id 1so65164gwb.11 for ; Sat, 20 Feb 2010 07:26:58 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from :user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=r5wneGubt3L7GshqFu7grOL9vyAJo/OzDB/D38uwQ+s=; b=AwvUzUI4/RxIRYRi15PrXJvdNIw59JS5GNonR1SVgNNEIw5EgBEJ6z9DnnXDwG+bHz 8dGS8C8OBra20myF03GcN/ThnvZPUo9RJ5gvLLO05zXQ9buHk8IK3WYkQfQTzT46QNb8 M+jo9/asI2yrs/p6g5DA3PWm/1dU+tqEt8QpM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject :references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=VS0CI9Lx8QCuTTwb+/3YOi7jH/UvbZPlpPCdvYnMFJQLXXNBIcwqLIF+BmG1rsZfz/ NJa7bBOOPoAMMwXqafd6fXcdeoOjeRCI3Sk7qrLyJ90fdNWu8wqjpVod2i0URf27SWhq b5oeCIbatFVO6sPt29C/hlO3m/UJ4YPxWMf7I= Received: by 10.150.179.11 with SMTP id b11mr3858273ybf.253.1266679617903; Sat, 20 Feb 2010 07:26:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from Wastrel.local (c-68-40-195-221.hsd1.mi.comcast.net [68.40.195.221]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 34sm623314yxf.11.2010.02.20.07.26.55 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Sat, 20 Feb 2010 07:26:56 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4B7FFF3E.4050503@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2010 10:26:54 -0500 From: William Allen Simpson User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Macintosh/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Paul Vixie CC: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] Gratuitous : WGLC draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-tcp-requirements References: <201002181317.OAA20214@TR-Sys.de> <6B738B7B-4E97-4973-B385-4DA030384649@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> <59243.1266510694@nsa.vix.com> <4B7D929C.70901@gont.com.ar> <73980.1266521075@nsa.vix.com> <63374DEBA0C347458403B9364029A914@localhost> <420D825130D55974F4C56E7C@Ximines.local> <20100219165608.GD46803@shinkuro.com> <45836.1266603481@nsa.vix.com> In-Reply-To: <45836.1266603481@nsa.vix.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: Paul Vixie wrote: > changing TCP/53 to allow congestion-driven server-initiated unilateral-close > would *not* be a clarification, it would be a completely new way of working. > +1 I've held off replying to this thread until it slowed down a bit, and I've re-read it again. TCP is improperly overused here. RFC 1035 *ONLY* allows "unilateral close or reset" a dormant connection after "a period on the order of two minutes". I've always interpreted that to mean the TCB itself could be thrown away (not a is sent). RFC 793: As a general rule, reset (RST) must be sent whenever a segment arrives which apparently is not intended for the current connection. Gratuitous (to close a connection) *without* an incoming segment is an *abuse* of TCP (and shouldn't work). This SHOULD be clarified here, and there SHOULD be a reference to RFC 3360. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Sat Feb 20 08:33:27 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E0D53A8212; Sat, 20 Feb 2010 08:33:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.655 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.655 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.056, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vcCn9cwaQxjm; Sat, 20 Feb 2010 08:33:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7DF43A7CD0; Sat, 20 Feb 2010 08:33:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NisET-0000gJ-HL for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Sat, 20 Feb 2010 16:31:05 +0000 Received: from [2001:4f8:3:bb:230:48ff:fe5a:2f38] (helo=nsa.vix.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:CAMELLIA256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NisER-0000g1-2g for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Sat, 20 Feb 2010 16:31:03 +0000 Received: from nsa.vix.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nsa.vix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3E3DAA433 for ; Sat, 20 Feb 2010 16:31:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vixie@nsa.vix.com) From: Paul Vixie To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] Draft: WGLC draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-tcp-requirements In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 20 Feb 2010 10:20:24 GMT." <20100220102024.GC16126@vacation.karoshi.com.> References: <201002181317.OAA20214@TR-Sys.de> <20100220102024.GC16126@vacation.karoshi.com.> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.1; nil; GNU Emacs 22.2.1 Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2010 16:31:02 +0000 Message-ID: <98039.1266683462@nsa.vix.com> Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: > Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2010 10:20:24 +0000 > From: bmanning@vacation.karoshi.com > > what I suspect is that in the next 20 years, what we will see is > a network that spans a much wider range of clock speeds and link > rate - and I am concerned about "impedence" mismatch on timeout > values. +1. 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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Sat Feb 20 12:15:42 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B04713A8261; Sat, 20 Feb 2010 12:15:42 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.082 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.082 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.645, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_NET=0.611, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YbtjIgkH1hah; Sat, 20 Feb 2010 12:15:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85FE03A8268; Sat, 20 Feb 2010 12:15:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nivdg-0003BK-1M for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Sat, 20 Feb 2010 20:09:20 +0000 Received: from [201.216.232.80] (helo=smtp1.xmundo.net) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nivda-0003B4-It for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Sat, 20 Feb 2010 20:09:14 +0000 Received: from venus.xmundo.net (venus.xmundo.net [201.216.232.56]) by smtp1.xmundo.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id CAD906B65E7; Sat, 20 Feb 2010 17:09:15 -0300 (ART) Received: from [192.168.0.100] (129-130-17-190.fibertel.com.ar [190.17.130.129]) (authenticated bits=0) by venus.xmundo.net (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id o1KK86oY006736; Sat, 20 Feb 2010 17:08:52 -0300 Message-ID: <4B804126.8060705@gont.com.ar> Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2010 17:08:06 -0300 From: Fernando Gont User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Windows/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: William Allen Simpson CC: bmanning@vacation.karoshi.com, Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk, =?UTF-8?B?QWxmcmVkIEjDtm5lcw==?= , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] timeouts: WGLC draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-tcp-requirements References: <201002181317.OAA20214@TR-Sys.de> <20100220102024.GC16126@vacation.karoshi.com.> <4B7FF856.7010201@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <4B7FF856.7010201@gmail.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.96.0 OpenPGP: id=D076FFF1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH authentication, not delayed by milter-greylist-3.0 (venus.xmundo.net [201.216.232.56]); Sat, 20 Feb 2010 17:09:15 -0300 (ART) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: William Allen Simpson wrote: > This specification MUST NOT change the current two minutes (120 seconds) > to a shorter time period. > > However, there is a perfectly good TCP option that deals with this issue, > and that SHOULD be referenced here: TCP User Timeout Option [RFC 5482]. > > >> what I suspect is that in the next 20 years, what we will see is >> a network that spans a much wider range of clock speeds and link >> rate - and I am concerned about "impedence" mismatch on timeout >> values. >> > UTO can negotiate this, transparently to both parties. IIRC, the DNS spec and the UTO option address two completely different issues. The DNS spec addresses the case of *idle* connections (i.e., a connection that has not been used for anything useful for e.g. the last two minutes). The UTO option, on the other hand, addresses the *TCP* user timeout option, which only kicks in when you do send something to the other end-point, but do not get a TCP *ACK* in, say, two minutes. So while the UTO option may provide a mechanism for exachanging timeout values, IMO the semantics of the UTO timeouts are different from the semantics we need here. 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------=_NextPart_000_0007_01CAB27A.74B629D0-- --===============1437457695==-- From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Sat Feb 20 14:41:02 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9A0B3A8036; Sat, 20 Feb 2010 14:41:02 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.53 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.53 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.069, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PCn0GewKm-Ps; Sat, 20 Feb 2010 14:41:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C867B3A7DD0; Sat, 20 Feb 2010 14:41:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nixvb-000Iu9-7g for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Sat, 20 Feb 2010 22:35:59 +0000 Received: from [2001:4f8:3:bb::5] (helo=farside.isc.org) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NixvY-000Its-NN for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Sat, 20 Feb 2010 22:35:56 +0000 Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (drugs.dv.isc.org [IPv6:2001:470:1f00:820:214:22ff:fed9:fbdc]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "drugs.dv.isc.org", Issuer "ISC CA" (not verified)) by farside.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2A42E60B3; Sat, 20 Feb 2010 22:35:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marka@isc.org) Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by drugs.dv.isc.org (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o1KMZrwm032192; Sun, 21 Feb 2010 09:35:53 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from marka@drugs.dv.isc.org) Message-Id: <201002202235.o1KMZrwm032192@drugs.dv.isc.org> To: Paul Vixie Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org From: Mark Andrews References: <201002181317.OAA20214@TR-Sys.de> <20100220102024.GC16126@vacation.karoshi.com.> <98039.1266683462@nsa.vix.com> Subject: Re: [dnsext] Draft: WGLC draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-tcp-requirements In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 20 Feb 2010 16:31:02 -0000." <98039.1266683462@nsa.vix.com> Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 09:35:53 +1100 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: In message <98039.1266683462@nsa.vix.com>, Paul Vixie writes: > > Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2010 10:20:24 +0000 > > From: bmanning@vacation.karoshi.com > > > > what I suspect is that in the next 20 years, what we will see is > > a network that spans a much wider range of clock speeds and link > > rate - and I am concerned about "impedence" mismatch on timeout > > values. > > +1. I don't see the speed of light changing in the next 20 years and it is that, not serialization and queuing delays that dominates round trip times. 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We don't bother about prescription, but we care about confidentiality of shipping and transactions http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/3883/merendino.swf From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Sat Feb 20 19:53:57 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 620BA28C0DD; Sat, 20 Feb 2010 19:53:57 -0800 (PST) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Duplicate header field: "Message-ID" X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.13 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.13 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.872, BAYES_00=-2.599, MIME_BASE64_BLANKS=0.041, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER=0.803, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mn8C0LvEDd5x; Sat, 20 Feb 2010 19:53:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8D103A7E08; Sat, 20 Feb 2010 19:53:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nj2o8-000PWf-Mp for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Sun, 21 Feb 2010 03:48:36 +0000 Received: from [159.226.7.146] (helo=cnnic.cn) by psg.com with smtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nj2o2-000PVt-NS for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Sun, 21 Feb 2010 03:48:31 +0000 Received: (eyou send program); Sun, 21 Feb 2010 11:48:28 +0800 Message-ID: <466724108.20368@cnnic.cn> X-EYOUMAIL-SMTPAUTH: yaojk@cnnic.cn Received: from unknown (HELO lenovo47e041cf) (127.0.0.1) by 127.0.0.1 with SMTP; Sun, 21 Feb 2010 11:48:28 +0800 Message-ID: <5C1E0111BD8742229193A506E0D6A1B9@LENOVO47E041CF> From: "YAO Jiankang" To: "Andrew Sullivan" , References: <20100216203626.GN36083@shinkuro.com> <4B7B3F32.30709@ucd.ie> <466449912.08871@cnnic.cn> Subject: Re: [dnsext] Draft minutes from interim meeting today Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 11:48:27 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5843 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: DQotLS0tLSBPcmlnaW5hbCBNZXNzYWdlIC0tLS0tIA0KRnJvbTogIkFuZHJldyBTdWxsaXZhbiIg PGFqc0BzaGlua3Vyby5jb20+DQpUbzogPG5hbWVkcm9wcGVyc0BvcHMuaWV0Zi5vcmc+DQpTZW50 OiBUaHVyc2RheSwgRmVicnVhcnkgMTgsIDIwMTAgNzoyMiBBTQ0KU3ViamVjdDogUmU6IFtkbnNl eHRdIERyYWZ0IG1pbnV0ZXMgZnJvbSBpbnRlcmltIG1lZXRpbmcgdG9kYXkNCg0KDQo+IE5pYWxs LA0KPiANCj4gRmlyc3QsIHRoYW5rcyBmb3IgeW91ciBjYXJlZnVsIGNoZWNraW5nIG9mIHRoZSBt aW51dGVzIQ0KPiANCj4gT24gV2VkLCBGZWIgMTcsIDIwMTAgYXQgMTI6NTg6MjZBTSArMDAwMCwg TmlhbGwub1JlaWxseStpZXRmQHVjZC5pZSB3cm90ZToNCj4gDQo+PiBGaXJzdCB3YXMgdGhlICJz Y29wZSBjcmVlcCIgaW4gYXBwbHlpbmcgVml4aWUncyBjb25zdHJhaW50cyB0byBvdGhlciANCj4+ IHNvbHV0aW9ucyB0aGFuIENMT05FLiAgQXMgSSBtaXNzZWQgdGhlIGRpc2N1c3Npb24gb2YgaGlz DQo+PiBwcmVzZW50YXRpb24sIEkgbmVlZCB0byBhc2sgd2hldGhlciB0aGUgbWVldGluZyB1bmRl cnN0b29kIHRoYXQNCj4+IHRoZXNlIGNvbnN0cmFpbnRzIHNob3VsZCBhcHBseSB0byBhbGwgc29s dXRpb25zLg0KPiANCj4gRXhjZWxsZW50IHF1ZXN0aW9uLiAgVGhhdCB0aGUgY29uc3RyYWludHMg d2VyZSB0byBiZSBhcHBsaWVkIGdlbmVyYWxseQ0KPiB0byB3aGF0IHdlIHdlcmUgdHJ5aW5nIHRv IGRvIHdhcyBpbmRlZWQgd2hhdCBJIHRob3VnaHQgSSBoZWFyZC4gIElmDQo+IHBlb3BsZSBkaWQg bm90IGludGVuZCBtZSB0byBpbnRlcnByZXQgdGhpbmdzIHRoYXQgd2F5LCBpdCB3b3VsZCBiZQ0K PiB1c2VmdWwgdG8gbGVhcm4gdGhhdCBhcyBzb29uIGFzIHBvc3NpYmxlLiANCg0KSSBoYXZlIHRo ZSBmZWVsaW5nIHRoYXQgdGhlIGNvbnN0cmFpbnRzIGFyZSBtYWlubHkgYXBwbGllZCB0byB6b25l IGNsb25lIHNvbHV0aW9uLg0Kc29tZSBwb2ludHMgbWlnaHQgYmUgZXh0ZW5kZWQgdG8gb3RoZXIg c29sdXRpb25zLCBidXQgbm90IGV2ZXJ5IHBvaW50Lg0KDQoNCllhbyBKaWFua2FuZw0KDQoNCj4g SSdsbCBsZWF2ZSB0aGlzIGluIHRoZQ0KPiBtaW51dGVzIHVuY2hhbmdlZCByZWdhcmRsZXNzLCBi dXQgaWYgcGVvcGxlIGNvcnJlY3QgbXkNCj4gbWlzYXBwcmVoZW5zaW9uLCBJIHdpbGwgYWRkIGEg bm90ZSB0byB0aGUgbWludXRlcyB0byB0aGUgZWZmZWN0IHRoYXQNCj4gc3Vic2VxdWVudCBkaXNj dXNzaW9uIHJldmVhbGVkIHRoYXQgdGhlIGNoYWlyLCBpbiBoaXMgdXN1YWwgZG96eSB3YXksDQo+ IG1pc3VuZGVyc3Rvb2QgdGhlIGludGVudGlvbiBvZiB0aGUgV0cuDQo+IA0K From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Sat Feb 20 19:53:58 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06BEC3A7E08; Sat, 20 Feb 2010 19:53:58 -0800 (PST) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Duplicate header field: "Message-ID" X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.333 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.333 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.216, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, MIME_BASE64_BLANKS=0.041, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER=0.803, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Q9Ek6tWdZ6u3; Sat, 20 Feb 2010 19:53:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0EB3E28C0CF; Sat, 20 Feb 2010 19:53:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nj2q8-000PmI-T3 for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Sun, 21 Feb 2010 03:50:40 +0000 Received: from [159.226.7.146] (helo=cnnic.cn) by psg.com with smtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nj2q1-000Pl2-CH for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Sun, 21 Feb 2010 03:50:33 +0000 Received: (eyou send program); Sun, 21 Feb 2010 11:50:32 +0800 Message-ID: <466724232.20368@cnnic.cn> X-EYOUMAIL-SMTPAUTH: yaojk@cnnic.cn Received: from unknown (HELO lenovo47e041cf) (127.0.0.1) by 127.0.0.1 with SMTP; Sun, 21 Feb 2010 11:50:32 +0800 Message-ID: <73C0B65E7568450C88AE67934AE2820B@LENOVO47E041CF> From: "YAO Jiankang" To: "Paul Vixie" , References: <20100216203626.GN36083@shinkuro.com> <4B7B3F32.30709@ucd.ie> <20100217232209.GE39457@shinkuro.com> <466450507.04934@cnnic.cn> Subject: Re: [dnsext] Draft minutes from interim meeting today Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 11:50:31 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5843 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: DQotLS0tLSBPcmlnaW5hbCBNZXNzYWdlIC0tLS0tIA0KRnJvbTogIlBhdWwgVml4aWUiIDx2aXhp ZUBpc2Mub3JnPg0KVG86IDxuYW1lZHJvcHBlcnNAb3BzLmlldGYub3JnPg0KU2VudDogVGh1cnNk YXksIEZlYnJ1YXJ5IDE4LCAyMDEwIDc6MzEgQU0NClN1YmplY3Q6IFJlOiBbZG5zZXh0XSBEcmFm dCBtaW51dGVzIGZyb20gaW50ZXJpbSBtZWV0aW5nIHRvZGF5IA0KDQoNCj4+IERhdGU6IFdlZCwg MTcgRmViIDIwMTAgMTg6MjI6MTYgLTA1MDANCj4+IEZyb206IEFuZHJldyBTdWxsaXZhbiA8YWpz QHNoaW5rdXJvLmNvbT4NCj4+IA0KPj4gRXhjZWxsZW50IHF1ZXN0aW9uLiAgVGhhdCB0aGUgY29u c3RyYWludHMgd2VyZSB0byBiZSBhcHBsaWVkIGdlbmVyYWxseQ0KPj4gdG8gd2hhdCB3ZSB3ZXJl IHRyeWluZyB0byBkbyB3YXMgaW5kZWVkIHdoYXQgSSB0aG91Z2h0IEkgaGVhcmQuICBJZg0KPj4g cGVvcGxlIGRpZCBub3QgaW50ZW5kIG1lIHRvIGludGVycHJldCB0aGluZ3MgdGhhdCB3YXksIGl0 IHdvdWxkIGJlDQo+PiB1c2VmdWwgdG8gbGVhcm4gdGhhdCBhcyBzb29uIGFzIHBvc3NpYmxlLiAg SSdsbCBsZWF2ZSB0aGlzIGluIHRoZQ0KPj4gbWludXRlcyB1bmNoYW5nZWQgcmVnYXJkbGVzcywg YnV0IGlmIHBlb3BsZSBjb3JyZWN0IG15DQo+PiBtaXNhcHByZWhlbnNpb24sIEkgd2lsbCBhZGQg YSBub3RlIHRvIHRoZSBtaW51dGVzIHRvIHRoZSBlZmZlY3QgdGhhdA0KPj4gc3Vic2VxdWVudCBk aXNjdXNzaW9uIHJldmVhbGVkIHRoYXQgdGhlIGNoYWlyLCBpbiBoaXMgdXN1YWwgZG96eSB3YXks DQo+PiBtaXN1bmRlcnN0b29kIHRoZSBpbnRlbnRpb24gb2YgdGhlIFdHLg0KPiANCj4gdGhlIGF1 ZGlvIHdhcyBwb29yLiAgaXQncyBlYXN5IHRvIGltYWdpbmUgcGVvcGxlIGh1bW1pbmcgdG8gbXkg Y29uc3RyYWludHMNCj4gdGhpbmtpbmcgd2Ugd2VyZSBkb2luZyBzbyBmb3Igem9uZSBjbG9uZXMg ZXZlbiB0aG91Z2ggeW91IHRob3VnaHQgeW91J2QNCj4gYXNrZWQgdXMgd2hldGhlciB3ZSB3ZXJl IHJlYWR5IHRvIGFkb3B0IG15IGNvbnN0cmFpbnRzIGZvciBhbGwgc29sdXRpb25zLg0KDQpJIGFt IHRoaW5raW5nIHRoYXQgSSBhbSBodW1pbmcgeW91ciBjb25zdHJhaW50cyB0byB5b3VyIHpvbmUg Y2xvbmVzLg0KDQo+ From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Sat Feb 20 20:04:17 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C33528C0CF; Sat, 20 Feb 2010 20:04:17 -0800 (PST) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Duplicate header field: "Message-ID" X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.507 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.507 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.042, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, MIME_BASE64_BLANKS=0.041, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER=0.803, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xbmQnlzTsPAb; Sat, 20 Feb 2010 20:04:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B86863A7B1F; Sat, 20 Feb 2010 20:04:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nj30d-0000yZ-DX for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Sun, 21 Feb 2010 04:01:31 +0000 Received: from [159.226.7.146] (helo=cnnic.cn) by psg.com with smtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nj30Y-0000y1-L5 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Sun, 21 Feb 2010 04:01:27 +0000 Received: (eyou send program); Sun, 21 Feb 2010 12:01:25 +0800 Message-ID: <466724885.28886@cnnic.cn> X-EYOUMAIL-SMTPAUTH: yaojk@cnnic.cn Received: from unknown (HELO lenovo47e041cf) (127.0.0.1) by 127.0.0.1 with SMTP; Sun, 21 Feb 2010 12:01:25 +0800 Message-ID: <72E660BA3B3241EEA2FFC62B790070EC@LENOVO47E041CF> From: "YAO Jiankang" To: "Olafur Gudmundsson" , "Paul Vixie" Cc: References: <20100216203626.GN36083@shinkuro.com> <4B7B3F32.30709@ucd.ie> <20100217232209.GE39457@shinkuro.com> <14856.1266449506@nsa.vix.com> <466530986.27026@cnnic.cn> Subject: Re: [dnsext] Draft minutes from interim meeting today Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 12:01:03 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5843 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: DQotLS0tLSBPcmlnaW5hbCBNZXNzYWdlIC0tLS0tIA0KRnJvbTogIk9sYWZ1ciBHdWRtdW5kc3Nv biIgPG9ndWRAb2d1ZC5jb20+DQpUbzogIlBhdWwgVml4aWUiIDx2aXhpZUBpc2Mub3JnPg0KQ2M6 IDxuYW1lZHJvcHBlcnNAb3BzLmlldGYub3JnPg0KU2VudDogRnJpZGF5LCBGZWJydWFyeSAxOSwg MjAxMCA1OjU2IEFNDQpTdWJqZWN0OiBSZTogW2Ruc2V4dF0gRHJhZnQgbWludXRlcyBmcm9tIGlu dGVyaW0gbWVldGluZyB0b2RheQ0KDQoNCj4gT24gMTcvMDIvMjAxMCA2OjMxIFBNLCBQYXVsIFZp eGllIHdyb3RlOg0KPj4+IERhdGU6IFdlZCwgMTcgRmViIDIwMTAgMTg6MjI6MTYgLTA1MDANCj4+ PiBGcm9tOiBBbmRyZXcgU3VsbGl2YW48YWpzQHNoaW5rdXJvLmNvbT4NCj4+Pg0KPj4+IEV4Y2Vs bGVudCBxdWVzdGlvbi4gIFRoYXQgdGhlIGNvbnN0cmFpbnRzIHdlcmUgdG8gYmUgYXBwbGllZCBn ZW5lcmFsbHkNCj4+PiB0byB3aGF0IHdlIHdlcmUgdHJ5aW5nIHRvIGRvIHdhcyBpbmRlZWQgd2hh dCBJIHRob3VnaHQgSSBoZWFyZC4gIElmDQo+Pj4gcGVvcGxlIGRpZCBub3QgaW50ZW5kIG1lIHRv IGludGVycHJldCB0aGluZ3MgdGhhdCB3YXksIGl0IHdvdWxkIGJlDQo+Pj4gdXNlZnVsIHRvIGxl YXJuIHRoYXQgYXMgc29vbiBhcyBwb3NzaWJsZS4gIEknbGwgbGVhdmUgdGhpcyBpbiB0aGUNCj4+ PiBtaW51dGVzIHVuY2hhbmdlZCByZWdhcmRsZXNzLCBidXQgaWYgcGVvcGxlIGNvcnJlY3QgbXkN Cj4+PiBtaXNhcHByZWhlbnNpb24sIEkgd2lsbCBhZGQgYSBub3RlIHRvIHRoZSBtaW51dGVzIHRv IHRoZSBlZmZlY3QgdGhhdA0KPj4+IHN1YnNlcXVlbnQgZGlzY3Vzc2lvbiByZXZlYWxlZCB0aGF0 IHRoZSBjaGFpciwgaW4gaGlzIHVzdWFsIGRvenkgd2F5LA0KPj4+IG1pc3VuZGVyc3Rvb2QgdGhl IGludGVudGlvbiBvZiB0aGUgV0cuDQo+Pg0KPj4gdGhlIGF1ZGlvIHdhcyBwb29yLiAgaXQncyBl YXN5IHRvIGltYWdpbmUgcGVvcGxlIGh1bW1pbmcgdG8gbXkgY29uc3RyYWludHMNCj4+IHRoaW5r aW5nIHdlIHdlcmUgZG9pbmcgc28gZm9yIHpvbmUgY2xvbmVzIGV2ZW4gdGhvdWdoIHlvdSB0aG91 Z2h0IHlvdSdkDQo+PiBhc2tlZCB1cyB3aGV0aGVyIHdlIHdlcmUgcmVhZHkgdG8gYWRvcHQgbXkg Y29uc3RyYWludHMgZm9yIGFsbCBzb2x1dGlvbnMuDQo+Pg0KPj4NCj4+DQo+IA0KPiBJIHRoaW5r IHRoYXQgdGhlIHBvc3NiaWxlIHNvbHV0aW9ucyBpbiB0aGlzIHNwYWNlIGNhbiBiZSBncm91cGVk IGludG8gDQo+IHR3byBiaWcgYnVja2V0cyAiUmVwbGljYXRpb24iIGFuZCAiSW5kaXJlY3Rpb24i LiAoVGhlICJOb3QgYSBQcm9ibGVtIiANCj4gYnVja2V0IGhhcyBiZWVuIHJ1bGVkIG91dCkuDQo+ IA0KDQorMQ0K From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Sat Feb 20 20:12:15 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1413028C0E8; 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Sat, 20 Feb 2010 20:09:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from LENOVO47E041CF ([116.69.123.85]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 34sm966962yxf.47.2010.02.20.20.09.31 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Sat, 20 Feb 2010 20:09:33 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <15759A10522F4E3282062B11C102E67A@LENOVO47E041CF> From: "Health" To: "Paul Vixie" , References: <20100216203626.GN36083@shinkuro.com> <4B7B3F32.30709@ucd.ie> <20100217232209.GE39457@shinkuro.com> <14856.1266449506@nsa.vix.com> <4B7DB786.6020009@ogud.com> <93565.1266538003@nsa.vix.com> Subject: Re: [dnsext] Draft minutes from interim meeting today Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 12:09:29 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5843 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: DQotLS0tLSBPcmlnaW5hbCBNZXNzYWdlIC0tLS0tIA0KRnJvbTogIlBhdWwgVml4aWUiIDx2aXhp ZUBpc2Mub3JnPg0KVG86IDxuYW1lZHJvcHBlcnNAb3BzLmlldGYub3JnPg0KU2VudDogRnJpZGF5 LCBGZWJydWFyeSAxOSwgMjAxMCA4OjA2IEFNDQpTdWJqZWN0OiBSZTogW2Ruc2V4dF0gRHJhZnQg bWludXRlcyBmcm9tIGludGVyaW0gbWVldGluZyB0b2RheSANCg0KDQo+b3RoZXIgd29yZHMgaSB3 YXMgbm90IHRyeWluZyB0byBhZGQgdG8gdGhlIHByb2JsZW0gc3RhdGVtZW50LCBvbmx5IHRvDQo+ IGlsbHVtaW5hdGUgbXkgb3duIHBlcnNvbmFsIGd1aWRlYW5jZSB0byBhaWQgaW4gZXZhbHVhdGlu ZyBteSBkZXNpZ24gZm9yDQo+IHpvbmUgY2xvbmVzLiANCg0KKzENCg0K From oversleeping842@geographicimager.com Sun Feb 21 04:43:57 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A3EF28C1CF for ; Sun, 21 Feb 2010 04:43:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -50.552 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-50.552 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=30.645, BAYES_99=3.5, FH_FAKE_RCVD_LINE_B=5.777, HELO_EQ_BR=0.955, HOST_EQ_BR=1.295, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VIJDvhL-vH9m for ; Sun, 21 Feb 2010 04:43:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from 20151002015.user.veloxzone.com.br (20151002015.user.veloxzone.com.br [201.51.2.15]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 047E428C1C9 for ; Sun, 21 Feb 2010 04:43:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from 201.51.2.15 by liam.avenza.com; Sun, 21 Feb 2010 09:45:46 -0300 Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 09:45:46 -0300 From: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: Hey really nice solution. Vertu for chep To: Message-ID: <000d01cab2f3$c9e6bea0$6400a8c0@oversleeping842> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-2"; reply-type=original Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal Vertu creates phones for discerning individuals who demand the best in everything they buy. The product of years of development, each Vertu is a complex masterpiece. It combines the finest materials with the highest traditions of craftsmanship. While other phones are mass produced by the millions, a Vertu is hand-built in England, one at a time. Inevitably, Vertu can only make such phones in very limited numbers: each one is rare, precious and highly exclusive. http://horsefly3557.spaces.live.com From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Sun Feb 21 05:08:08 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C56B128C13A; Sun, 21 Feb 2010 05:08:08 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uvPyZBFssJI1; Sun, 21 Feb 2010 05:08:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F78828C0E0; Sun, 21 Feb 2010 05:08:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NjBSa-0006nP-Ib for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Sun, 21 Feb 2010 13:02:56 +0000 Received: from [2001:478:6:0:230:48ff:fe11:220a] (helo=vacation.karoshi.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NjBSM-0006aM-6E for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Sun, 21 Feb 2010 13:02:52 +0000 Received: from karoshi.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by vacation.karoshi.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o1LCwXcY000328; Sun, 21 Feb 2010 12:58:40 GMT Received: (from bmanning@localhost) by karoshi.com (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id o1LCwNj0000326; Sun, 21 Feb 2010 12:58:23 GMT Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 12:58:23 +0000 From: bmanning@vacation.karoshi.com To: Mark Andrews Cc: Paul Vixie , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] Draft: WGLC draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-tcp-requirements Message-ID: <20100221125823.GA30335@vacation.karoshi.com.> References: <201002181317.OAA20214@TR-Sys.de> <20100220102024.GC16126@vacation.karoshi.com.> <98039.1266683462@nsa.vix.com> <201002202235.o1KMZrwm032192@drugs.dv.isc.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <201002202235.o1KMZrwm032192@drugs.dv.isc.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On Sun, Feb 21, 2010 at 09:35:53AM +1100, Mark Andrews wrote: > > In message <98039.1266683462@nsa.vix.com>, Paul Vixie writes: > > > Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2010 10:20:24 +0000 > > > From: bmanning@vacation.karoshi.com > > > > > > what I suspect is that in the next 20 years, what we will see is > > > a network that spans a much wider range of clock speeds and link > > > rate - and I am concerned about "impedence" mismatch on timeout > > > values. > > > > +1. > > I don't see the speed of light changing in the next 20 years and it is that, > not serialization and queuing delays that dominates round trip times. We > are at about the best we will get to now. > clearly you need to catch up on your reading. :) 20 years ago, the range was 110-64000 ish and serialization and queuing delays were predominant. and yes, the speed of light was the same then as now. today.. 12200-1,000,000,000 - (gsm-1g) and looks like a somewhat larger spread - meaning serialization and queuing delays will predominate. same speed of light. 20 years hence ... (swag) active RFID tags (110baud) to 100G ... looks like that much wider range of link rates to me and the impedence mismatch will drive up the serialization and queuing delays. and yea verily ... the speed of light is almost the same ... ** ** www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/1999/02.18/light.html ** http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2005-08/epfd-ltt081905.php --bill From dmanet@ietf.org Sun Feb 21 05:59:20 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BB963A77DE for ; Sun, 21 Feb 2010 05:59:20 -0800 (PST) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char C2 hex): From: Approved VIAGRA\302\256 Store ; Sun, 21 Feb 2010 05:59:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from ak.net (unknown [94.232.120.170]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 14A203A7472 for ; Sun, 21 Feb 2010 05:59:08 -0800 (PST) From: Approved VIAGRA® Store Subject: Electronic Discount Code 70% for dnsext-archive@ietf.org To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20100221135912.14A203A7472@core3.amsl.com> Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 05:59:08 -0800 (PST)
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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Sun Feb 21 07:19:20 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3F2C28C1D6; Sun, 21 Feb 2010 07:19:20 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.629 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.629 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.734, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, J_CHICKENPOX_33=0.6, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7RtnDnI+2X7q; Sun, 21 Feb 2010 07:18:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B5CA3A7EA2; Sun, 21 Feb 2010 07:18:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NjDW4-000MiL-Ab for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Sun, 21 Feb 2010 15:14:40 +0000 Received: from [209.85.218.209] (helo=mail-bw0-f209.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NjDW1-000Mhy-Iy for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Sun, 21 Feb 2010 15:14:37 +0000 Received: by bwz1 with SMTP id 1so1053846bwz.1 for ; Sun, 21 Feb 2010 07:14:36 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=c3Xf/9D2M3QbcVmSehaM+H0fmmlefHHPTpcGire3xhc=; b=UnvQ5huy3bvfBfLAaGj6PDTzYX+XQWyF9+k5szMRhGa7LHkf8cxc0nH55vUWNqB5QU ZSYyyZgQh+70xRJIXY/ytRSzTyXCmJT/ZWhdgUKrGQSdFAE7YsesVa7C+LcG+YHAkkhm pNNoz91w834oPDKTiSsdWz3FSMFXNZiwn9N/k= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=vNjI8NLAetg6vE4XyKbXhf+uyANYyGh7DlSYsGhAL/iz8GlWYvEMbOSzrdSKAwoIUX WWIofw1yI9a4IOuF2p0mFRkNEKv6o3czacXCpQsrQILgEnOewRcCWO3/oHQ0ozqDVHEt tR86k5NN8P6/g1W5GLb+Hk2X/Um1WaPTHssws= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.204.5.205 with SMTP id 13mr1273955bkw.109.1266765276234; Sun, 21 Feb 2010 07:14:36 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <20100221125823.GA30335@vacation.karoshi.com.> References: <201002181317.OAA20214@TR-Sys.de> <20100220102024.GC16126@vacation.karoshi.com.> <98039.1266683462@nsa.vix.com> <201002202235.o1KMZrwm032192@drugs.dv.isc.org> <20100221125823.GA30335@vacation.karoshi.com.> Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 11:14:35 -0400 Message-ID: <3e1abd2c1002210714g74c0946aob41144e8f453379b@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [dnsext] Draft: WGLC draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-tcp-requirements From: Brian Dickson To: bmanning@vacation.karoshi.com Cc: Mark Andrews , Paul Vixie , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On Sun, Feb 21, 2010 at 8:58 AM, wrote: > On Sun, Feb 21, 2010 at 09:35:53AM +1100, Mark Andrews wrote: >> >> In message <98039.1266683462@nsa.vix.com>, Paul Vixie writes: >> > > Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2010 10:20:24 +0000 >> > > From: bmanning@vacation.karoshi.com >> > > >> > > =A0 what I suspect is that in the next 20 years, what we will see is >> > > =A0 a network that spans a much wider range of clock speeds and link >> > > =A0 rate - and I am concerned about "impedence" mismatch on timeout >> > > =A0 values. >> > >> > +1. >> >> I don't see the speed of light changing in the next 20 years and it is t= hat, >> not serialization and queuing delays that dominates round trip times. = =A0We >> are at about the best we will get to now. >> > > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0clearly you need to catch up on your reading. :) > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A020 years ago, the range was 110-64000 ish > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0and serialization and queuing delays were predominant. > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0and yes, the speed of light was the same then as now. > > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0today.. =A012200-1,000,000,000 - (gsm-1g) and looks like > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0a somewhat larger spread - meaning serialization and > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0queuing delays will predominate. =A0same speed of light. > > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A020 years hence ... =A0(swag) =A0active RFID tags (110baud) > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0to 100G ... looks like that much wider range of > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0link rates to me and the impedence mismatch will > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0drive up the serialization and queuing delays. I beg to differ. ;-) *30* years ago, i.e. when RFC 793 was written, clock speed was the dominating factor. E.g. a PDP-11/20 had a clock speed of 125KHz. However, 30 years is about 20 doubling intervals per Moore's Law, so processing power should be expected to be about 2^20, or 1M, faster. Since the speed of light in a given medium is a constant, and fibre and satellite will likely continue to be used where they are used today, those can be seen as invariant. Serialization delay is proportional to packet size, and inversely proportional to link speed. We're talking about FIN, FIN-ACK, ACK, all minimum packet size (56 B), so we fix packet size and compare the impact of link speed alone, vs fixed delay on "c". To avoid impedance mismatch, it is necessary to accommodate the longest realistic delay, rather than the shortest. At 1M times improvement, clock speed is off the table for being the problem child. The worst case for bidirectional paths is likely to include no more than 1 circuit of the earth on fibre (~ 200ms), plus up to 4 hops via GEO satellite @ 280ms. Double for RTT, and you get about 2.6 seconds. While I sincerely doubt that anyone will be putting an authority server on an RFID tag, it is conceivable that one might put a recursive resolver on one, so I'll give you your 110bps rate for serialization delay of about 4 seconds. So, whether it is 2.6 or 4 seconds, it is still low numbers of seconds. And if you don't believe in RFID tags doing DNS, then speed of light *is* the dominating worst-case that needs to be accommodated. +1 on negotiating close-wait time, rather than using fixed values. And, IMHO, a more sensible approach for a resource-starved server, would be (at relative "defcon" values): (5) Start by slowing down processing of SYNs (4) Reap idle TCBs gracefully, starting with those with smallest RTT's obse= rved (3) Next, presume un-acked SYNs are DOS junk, and start RST'ing those older than TBD seconds (2.6 or 4 or whatever you think is best for you) (2) Reject SYNs (however you want, possibly RST) (1) ungraceful reaping ... repeat until resources back at reasonable levels, i.e. back down the DEFCON levels from 1 to 5 as available resources hit appropriate levels. Brian From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Sun Feb 21 09:05:23 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9BD3328C176; Sun, 21 Feb 2010 09:05:23 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.052 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.052 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.653, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_21=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_33=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id E1cK0lmxK-4z; Sun, 21 Feb 2010 09:05:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B02C228C133; Sun, 21 Feb 2010 09:05:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NjFBU-0007N2-SH for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Sun, 21 Feb 2010 17:01:32 +0000 Received: from [2001:4f8:3:bb:230:48ff:fe5a:2f38] (helo=nsa.vix.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:CAMELLIA256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NjFBO-0007Lh-0p for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Sun, 21 Feb 2010 17:01:26 +0000 Received: from nsa.vix.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nsa.vix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C6EAAA61D for ; Sun, 21 Feb 2010 17:01:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vixie@nsa.vix.com) From: Paul Vixie To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] Draft: WGLC draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-tcp-requirements In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 21 Feb 2010 11:14:35 -0400." <3e1abd2c1002210714g74c0946aob41144e8f453379b@mail.gmail.com> References: <201002181317.OAA20214@TR-Sys.de> <20100220102024.GC16126@vacation.karoshi.com.> <98039.1266683462@nsa.vix.com> <201002202235.o1KMZrwm032192@drugs.dv.isc.org> <20100221125823.GA30335@vacation.karoshi.com.> <3e1abd2c1002210714g74c0946aob41144e8f453379b@mail.gmail.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.1; nil; GNU Emacs 22.2.1 Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 17:01:25 +0000 Message-ID: <57865.1266771685@nsa.vix.com> Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: > Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 11:14:35 -0400 > From: Brian Dickson > ... > At 1M times improvement, clock speed is off the table for being the > problem child. if we keep it that way, yes. some aspects of the dnssec design (precomputed signatures including negative spans for secure nxdomain) were crafted with an eye toward protecting the server's CPU. others like the choice of crypto-alg were done with an eye toward protecting the client's CPU. we could easily have done as the commodity platforms do and assume that all that new CPU is for us not for our customers, thus using it up on stupid background sh*t and leaving clock speed on the table as a potential problem child. see also the differences between internal clock, I/O clock, and memory clock. fairly often we look at moore's law and say, systems are twice as fast as they were 18 months ago. and that's true if you're not doing a lot of memcpy(). but, object oriented garbage collected interpreted thread-safe languages use so much memory bandwidth for abstraction maintainance that many systems are no faster even though their "clock speed" suggests that they ought to be. i'm not taking anything away from your main point. but this side point needs clarification lest we forget that there are still hardware issues near "the table" waiting to land on "the table" and become once again problem children. > +1 on negotiating close-wait time, rather than using fixed values. we learned a lot from RTT measurement and sorting when selecting nameservers, and from RTT estimation for TCP clocking purposes. it seems to me that this learning ought to flow back toward session timeout interval selection somehow, and maybe transaction timeout interval selection also. > And, IMHO, a more sensible approach for a resource-starved server, > would be (at relative "defcon" values): > > (5) Start by slowing down processing of SYNs > (4) Reap idle TCBs gracefully, starting with those with smallest RTT's > observed > (3) Next, presume un-acked SYNs are DOS junk, and start RST'ing those > older than TBD seconds (2.6 or 4 or whatever you think is best for > you) > (2) Reject SYNs (however you want, possibly RST) > (1) ungraceful reaping > > ... repeat until resources back at reasonable levels, i.e. back down > the DEFCON levels from 1 to 5 as available resources hit appropriate > levels. we're (mostly william simpson but others including myself are involved) are taking a different approach in TCP/CT, which is to include cookies in SYNs so as to keep TCB's from being created until 3-way, and to allow payloads in both SYN and SYN/ACK, and do away with RST and FIN-WAIT altogether. there's no reason we have to be shackled to the limitations of UDP/53 and TCP/53 for the full lifetime of the internet. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Sun Feb 21 09:43:13 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D94528C199; Sun, 21 Feb 2010 09:43:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.195 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.195 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.300, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, J_CHICKENPOX_33=0.6, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WtLtlzE-atWE; Sun, 21 Feb 2010 09:43:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6429E28C19D; Sun, 21 Feb 2010 09:43:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NjFm2-000B9x-2S for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Sun, 21 Feb 2010 17:39:18 +0000 Received: from [209.85.210.185] (helo=mail-yx0-f185.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NjFlv-000B9c-Q1 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Sun, 21 Feb 2010 17:39:11 +0000 Received: by yxe15 with SMTP id 15so2172877yxe.9 for ; Sun, 21 Feb 2010 09:39:11 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from :user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=aG9RB6kJd2m82bBkSMmyMwgNpu3kAHRqSG//vBu3bFU=; b=YnUWeRKh/WQdiJGqTG8OE72sv+CTTVb9f5sZOTZqTUPYkCkaE7AOymLunyAzu8YMCP eySyfw8mwuwREhBV6ZDKByMp0i3yzf43m3GC3gf75rolZhJ/4cUQ2XNkOyw060BjMLlX rZL4kU5OnOVRNbyyMrWvv14YkbWgJJMAZ4GQw= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject :references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=TaxZDySZQ7Jaz3I7k7O5IJ4ucet5jxyakbnhnhMUOup2o7jPpaVT4N5wCpfV9CbWnf hmfOIMSZUp3J05uz7gOYm6BwHqlWiZ4N9BW5LqwLmxFhLmuACb49f8puixulyupEdihX asH9ybsiBd8hB78Yr2cxkII51XT8HBRwldcCg= Received: by 10.150.252.7 with SMTP id z7mr1418651ybh.225.1266773950841; Sun, 21 Feb 2010 09:39:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from Wastrel.local (c-68-40-195-221.hsd1.mi.comcast.net [68.40.195.221]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 23sm1320198yxe.18.2010.02.21.09.39.08 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Sun, 21 Feb 2010 09:39:09 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4B816FBB.30000@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 12:39:07 -0500 From: William Allen Simpson User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Macintosh/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brian Dickson CC: bmanning@vacation.karoshi.com, Mark Andrews , Paul Vixie , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] timeouts: WGLC draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-tcp-requirements References: <201002181317.OAA20214@TR-Sys.de> <20100220102024.GC16126@vacation.karoshi.com.> <98039.1266683462@nsa.vix.com> <201002202235.o1KMZrwm032192@drugs.dv.isc.org> <20100221125823.GA30335@vacation.karoshi.com.> <3e1abd2c1002210714g74c0946aob41144e8f453379b@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <3e1abd2c1002210714g74c0946aob41144e8f453379b@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: Brian Dickson wrote: > *30* years ago, i.e. when RFC 793 was written, clock speed was the > dominating factor. > E.g. a PDP-11/20 had a clock speed of 125KHz. > Gosh, I don't even remember the clock speed on the Interdata 7/16 and 7/32. But I disagree that clock speed has much to do with this issue. > Since the speed of light in a given medium is a constant, and fibre > and satellite will likely continue > to be used where they are used today, those can be seen as invariant. > Here, we agree. This is (in part) a speed of light issue. > To avoid impedance mismatch, it is necessary to accommodate the > longest realistic delay, > rather than the shortest. > Agreed! > At 1M times improvement, clock speed is off the table for being the > problem child. > Agreed. > The worst case for bidirectional paths is likely to include no more > than 1 circuit of the earth > on fibre (~ 200ms), plus up to 4 hops via GEO satellite @ 280ms. > Double for RTT, and you get about 2.6 seconds. > Here's where we disagree. The worst case bi-directional path is likely satellite (or the moon), but multiplied by the IP 255 hop limit. > While I sincerely doubt that anyone will be putting an authority > server on an RFID tag, it is conceivable > that one might put a recursive resolver on one, so I'll give you your > 110bps rate for serialization delay of about 4 seconds. > > So, whether it is 2.6 or 4 seconds, it is still low numbers of seconds. > No, it's 255 times that! Low number of minutes. > +1 on negotiating close-wait time, rather than using fixed values. > +2. But a default value of 2 minutes is a good choice for DNS, and really cannot be changed without some form of option negotiation.... > And, IMHO, a more sensible approach for a resource-starved server, > would be (at relative "defcon" values): > (5) Start by slowing down processing of SYNs I don't understand how this helps, and it adds complexity. > (4) Reap idle TCBs gracefully, starting with those with smallest RTT's observed That seems to me to be the first and best plan. > (3) Next, presume un-acked SYNs are DOS junk, and start RST'ing those > older than TBD seconds (2.6 or 4 or whatever you think is best for > you) Since when are these supposed to have a RST? Besides, we have better ideas for fixing the SYN state problem.... > (2) Reject SYNs (however you want, possibly RST) > (1) ungraceful reaping > > ... repeat until resources back at reasonable levels, i.e. back down > the DEFCON levels from 1 to 5 as available resources hit appropriate > levels. > From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Sun Feb 21 09:53:42 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54BE328C19D; Sun, 21 Feb 2010 09:53:42 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.42 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.42 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.075, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7YV+nQVUe9gh; Sun, 21 Feb 2010 09:53:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 820AF28C190; Sun, 21 Feb 2010 09:53:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NjFx1-000CFD-UI for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Sun, 21 Feb 2010 17:50:39 +0000 Received: from [209.85.210.185] (helo=mail-yx0-f185.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NjFww-000CED-PZ for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Sun, 21 Feb 2010 17:50:35 +0000 Received: by yxe15 with SMTP id 15so2183979yxe.9 for ; Sun, 21 Feb 2010 09:50:34 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from :user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=UbLf2J4q4s0oDNKvBL+3vlCQVyzFHgbKODPIZZP+4Zs=; b=qlamppWKqdcKhVxqaMk0+4VtGpv2Wiq2oPcDVQDHPeWyNckzuZTDp8R9qcQ23VyS/z pYGCYl7Y5RdF6yYoLjq7NPDyp1iI/Fz6Zagz0jgA3clhxD2V2OIg7Pb2/2qZGgjf+je6 B9C0D9b/1NXmCvm5MzUk+I84b19Iafayn9AWY= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject :references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=s1FO9LYJms8W8Juy3aTL5t7y6LBBPDspSQjBimF9l7FAnoLc4BWg1+Z2gVY5kfvFMh FU4Ufz4hZMhjAhAgeGePiijp1smm0BafnUc/JSCMPZvIInEaonmMqhfJrvrqe+sQ16fD 48c7kes2fYdFy2wFI2ed9Y+d2N6ca5doJlCzM= Received: by 10.150.169.5 with SMTP id r5mr3098136ybe.307.1266774633928; Sun, 21 Feb 2010 09:50:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from Wastrel.local (c-68-40-195-221.hsd1.mi.comcast.net [68.40.195.221]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 6sm1340688yxg.12.2010.02.21.09.50.31 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Sun, 21 Feb 2010 09:50:32 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4B817266.4000302@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 12:50:30 -0500 From: William Allen Simpson User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Macintosh/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Fernando Gont CC: bmanning@vacation.karoshi.com, Ray.Bellis@nominet.org.uk, =?UTF-8?B?QWxmcmVkIEjDtm5lcw==?= , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] timeouts: WGLC draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-tcp-requirements References: <201002181317.OAA20214@TR-Sys.de> <20100220102024.GC16126@vacation.karoshi.com.> <4B7FF856.7010201@gmail.com> <4B804126.8060705@gont.com.ar> In-Reply-To: <4B804126.8060705@gont.com.ar> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: Fernando Gont wrote: > IIRC, the DNS spec and the UTO option address two completely different > issues. The DNS spec addresses the case of *idle* connections (i.e., a > connection that has not been used for anything useful for e.g. the last > two minutes). The UTO option, on the other hand, addresses the *TCP* > user timeout option, which only kicks in when you do send something to > the other end-point, but do not get a TCP *ACK* in, say, two minutes. > > So while the UTO option may provide a mechanism for exachanging timeout > values, IMO the semantics of the UTO timeouts are different from the > semantics we need here. > True, that's your design, but the last time I looked at it (a draft), it said: A second use of the TCP User Timeout Option is advertisement of shorter-than-default user timeouts. This can allow busy servers to explicitly notify their clients that they will maintain the state associated with established connections only across short periods of disconnection. That seemed a perfect match for DNS. But otherwise, we could define something of the sort as an EDNS0 option, instead. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Sun Feb 21 10:19:48 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E41D28C1A2; Sun, 21 Feb 2010 10:19:48 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.135 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.135 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.240, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, J_CHICKENPOX_33=0.6, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fQ-M9Pvdet8L; Sun, 21 Feb 2010 10:19:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50F6D3A8222; Sun, 21 Feb 2010 10:19:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NjGMQ-000FWn-Bi for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Sun, 21 Feb 2010 18:16:54 +0000 Received: from [209.85.210.185] (helo=mail-yx0-f185.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NjGMJ-000FVq-2L for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Sun, 21 Feb 2010 18:16:47 +0000 Received: by yxe15 with SMTP id 15so2208117yxe.9 for ; Sun, 21 Feb 2010 10:16:45 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from :user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=rqPG1/Afe+2+X4uYS3l/JBph3k1E41RBTe27OtDLhsA=; b=U/kNSY6wTXj9SFPBE7zsKHlPqT1iY8HWtiHvB/0WAq8VtvapvoGONdfCJlQkEhrrKU iN1Odef6pbD1rl5uTaHq6GiHb/T2zzE5M+EnpGdIuOiPQYvB4b5n4mAvbw212/0osvPl 6cyPtpszLciNSPywAOu1E7qgGy1TrpdEOW98E= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject :references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=nBxHWwA82YyzZtS10SfKFdqe5WNd5szsnK7R9HE/0xVsmMYA6u8Kllgp5Xv54orax4 hZcE/wOEXTtMkW6ZUiagcHSbBI/sgJ1ZXWdObUs9f/qkqDwI1CEzjtryNSm0DwDt4LQg o48OyoebYYWtBoIMYr+xOzKy2ss5NNvCLGY8M= Received: by 10.150.251.15 with SMTP id y15mr269427ybh.228.1266776205472; Sun, 21 Feb 2010 10:16:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from Wastrel.local (c-68-40-195-221.hsd1.mi.comcast.net [68.40.195.221]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 6sm1321106yxg.66.2010.02.21.10.16.43 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Sun, 21 Feb 2010 10:16:44 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4B817887.2040002@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 13:16:39 -0500 From: William Allen Simpson User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Macintosh/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Paul Vixie CC: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] timeouts: WGLC draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-tcp-requirements References: <201002181317.OAA20214@TR-Sys.de> <20100220102024.GC16126@vacation.karoshi.com.> <98039.1266683462@nsa.vix.com> <201002202235.o1KMZrwm032192@drugs.dv.isc.org> <20100221125823.GA30335@vacation.karoshi.com.> <3e1abd2c1002210714g74c0946aob41144e8f453379b@mail.gmail.com> <57865.1266771685@nsa.vix.com> In-Reply-To: <57865.1266771685@nsa.vix.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: Paul Vixie wrote: >> Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 11:14:35 -0400 >> From: Brian Dickson >> And, IMHO, a more sensible approach for a resource-starved server, >> would be (at relative "defcon" values): >> >> (5) Start by slowing down processing of SYNs >> (4) Reap idle TCBs gracefully, starting with those with smallest RTT's >> observed >> (3) Next, presume un-acked SYNs are DOS junk, and start RST'ing those >> older than TBD seconds (2.6 or 4 or whatever you think is best for >> you) >> (2) Reject SYNs (however you want, possibly RST) >> (1) ungraceful reaping >> >> ... repeat until resources back at reasonable levels, i.e. back down >> the DEFCON levels from 1 to 5 as available resources hit appropriate >> levels. > > we're (mostly william simpson but others including myself are involved) are > taking a different approach in TCP/CT, which is to include cookies in SYNs > so as to keep TCB's from being created until 3-way, and to allow payloads in > both SYN and SYN/ACK, and do away with RST and FIN-WAIT altogether. there's > no reason we have to be shackled to the limitations of UDP/53 and TCP/53 for > the full lifetime of the internet. > Paul and I were writing at the same time. TCPCT solves a number of these issues, but we don't even have 2 interoperable implementations yet. So, we cannot actually put TCPCT in a BCP yet. Maybe next year. :-) From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Sun Feb 21 10:55:48 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16E8B28C0FA; Sun, 21 Feb 2010 10:55:48 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.431 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.431 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.936, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FsFaRGcQ1QiY; Sun, 21 Feb 2010 10:55:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 421583A8235; Sun, 21 Feb 2010 10:55:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NjGuE-000Ihb-3C for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Sun, 21 Feb 2010 18:51:50 +0000 Received: from [89.16.176.221] (helo=mail.avalus.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NjGu7-000Ih5-TH for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Sun, 21 Feb 2010 18:51:44 +0000 Received: from [192.168.100.136] (87-194-71-186.bethere.co.uk [87.194.71.186]) by mail.avalus.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 7719AC563AC; Sun, 21 Feb 2010 18:51:41 +0000 (GMT) Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 18:51:49 +0000 From: Alex Bligh Reply-To: Alex Bligh To: William Allen Simpson , Brian Dickson cc: bmanning@vacation.karoshi.com, Mark Andrews , Paul Vixie , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org, Alex Bligh Subject: Re: [dnsext] timeouts: WGLC draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-tcp-requirements Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <4B816FBB.30000@gmail.com> References: <201002181317.OAA20214@TR-Sys.de> <20100220102024.GC16126@vacation.karoshi.com.> <98039.1266683462@nsa.vix.com> <201002202235.o1KMZrwm032192@drugs.dv.isc.org> <20100221125823.GA30335@vacation.karoshi.com.> <3e1abd2c1002210714g74c0946aob41144e8f453379b@mail.gmail.com> <4B816FBB.30000@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Mac OS X) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: --On 21 February 2010 12:39:07 -0500 William Allen Simpson wrote: >> The worst case for bidirectional paths is likely to include no more >> than 1 circuit of the earth >> on fibre (~ 200ms), plus up to 4 hops via GEO satellite @ 280ms. >> Double for RTT, and you get about 2.6 seconds. >> > Here's where we disagree. The worst case bi-directional path is likely > satellite (or the moon), but multiplied by the IP 255 hop limit. You are seriously suggesting that the design constraint should be the ability to reliably reach an auth server by 255 hops to the moon and back? Firstly, no one is making UDP optional, so this particular sub-optimal routing could be supported by UDP. Secondly, I had thought that if the SYN sender doesn't receive the ACK within 75 seconds, the connection establishment is aborted. So paths with an RTT longer than 75 seconds are not going to support TCP (without tuning) anyway. Thirdly, if we really want to support queries via the moon 255 times, all we need to do is to prevent such an early unilateral close by the server until a reply has been sent. Let's hope whoever routed this circuit via the moon 255 times didn't decide putting a NAT in the way was a good idea too, or that would time out. Oh, and for completeness, your multiplier is wrong. If I route a circuit via the moon via frame relay or similar, I could take you to the moon and back a few hundred times on a single IP layer hop. So why stop at 255? -- Alex Bligh From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Sun Feb 21 12:10:47 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5C3E3A72CE; Sun, 21 Feb 2010 12:10:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.342 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.342 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.594, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4ivpkPkcUkVs; Sun, 21 Feb 2010 12:10:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A32AE28C0E1; Sun, 21 Feb 2010 12:10:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NjI5F-0000RE-W0 for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Sun, 21 Feb 2010 20:07:17 +0000 Received: from [192.150.186.11] (helo=fruitcake.ICSI.Berkeley.EDU) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NjI5D-0000Qr-P4 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Sun, 21 Feb 2010 20:07:15 +0000 Received: from [IPv6:::1] (jack.ICSI.Berkeley.EDU [192.150.186.73]) by fruitcake.ICSI.Berkeley.EDU (8.12.11.20060614/8.12.11) with ESMTP id o1LK6xdo018349; Sun, 21 Feb 2010 12:06:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: [dnsext] Draft: WGLC draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-tcp-requirements Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 From: Nicholas Weaver In-Reply-To: <201002181805.TAA21024@TR-Sys.de> Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 12:07:04 -0800 Cc: Nicholas Weaver , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org, vixie@isc.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <71F913A0-0859-4E69-BAAE-E9DC482471AF@icsi.berkeley.edu> References: <201002181805.TAA21024@TR-Sys.de> To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Alfred_H=CEnes?= X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On Feb 18, 2010, at 10:05 AM, Alfred H=CEnes wrote: > Paul Vixie wrote: >=20 >> any server-initiated close that isn't FIN or isn't timeout-based >> would be a protocol change not a clarification, ... >=20 > +1 >=20 > In particular: a protocol change for TCP, not DNS ! That protocol change has already happened for HTTP: Both web clients = and web servers are very aggressive in closing connections with RST = instead of FIN, particularly IIS and IE: Please see Martin Arlitt and Carey Williamson. An Analysis of TCP Reset Behaviour = on the Internet.=20 SIGCOMM Comput. Commun. Rev., 35(1):37=9644, 2005. RST for terminating connections (especially in something like DNS or = HTTP where the server won't be able to reply to any more requested data = ANYWAY and is closing connections to free state, so half-open = connections are rather meaningless) is accepted practice these days on = the HTTP side, regardless of what the RFCs say for RST's semantics. 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Purcahse and receive your package via airmail or courier service to your house! http://img714.imageshack.us/img714/967/sockalosky.swf --===============2022047962==-- From dnsop-bounces@ietf.org Sun Feb 21 18:23:11 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dnsext-archive@ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33CA428C205 for ; Sun, 21 Feb 2010 18:23:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: The results of your email commands From: dnsop-bounces@ietf.org To: dnsext-archive@ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0392169378==" Message-ID: Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 18:23:10 -0800 Precedence: bulk X-BeenThere: dnsop@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 List-Id: IETF DNSOP WG mailing list X-List-Administrivia: yes Sender: dnsop-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: dnsop-bounces@ietf.org --===============0392169378== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The results of your email command are provided below. Attached is your original message. - Unprocessed: We have 30%, 40% and even 60% off, depending on what exact good from our 400-name spectrum you may want. Purcahse and receive your package via airmail or courier service to your house! http://img714.imageshack.us/img714/967/sockalosky.swf - Done. --===============0392169378== Content-Type: message/rfc822 MIME-Version: 1.0 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dnsop-request@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: dnsop-request@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C9CA28C129; Sun, 21 Feb 2010 18:23:09 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -77.907 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-77.907 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HELO_DYNAMIC_HCC=4.295, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR=2.426, HELO_EQ_DIALUP=0.862, HELO_EQ_DSL=1.129, HOST_EQ_DIALUP=0.862, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6TarjKdOEr+d; Sun, 21 Feb 2010 18:23:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from r190-135-198-223.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy (r190-135-143-168.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy [190.135.143.168]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73C3E28C21B; Sun, 21 Feb 2010 18:23:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from 190.135.143.168 by eforwardct3.name-services.com; Sun, 21 Feb 2010 20:24:56 -0600 Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 20:24:56 -0600 From: dnsext-archive@ietf.org Subject: Let manhood reveal excitement To: Message-ID: <000d01cab366$394e7680$6400a8c0@disproportions> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-2"; reply-type=original Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal What discounts on medicaments have we prepared for you? We have 30%, 40% and even 60% off, depending on what exact good from our 400-name spectrum you may want. Purcahse and receive your package via airmail or courier service to your house! http://img714.imageshack.us/img714/967/sockalosky.swf --===============0392169378==-- From disproportions@johndifrancesco.com Sun Feb 21 18:23:09 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C9CA28C129; Sun, 21 Feb 2010 18:23:09 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -77.907 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-77.907 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HELO_DYNAMIC_HCC=4.295, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR=2.426, HELO_EQ_DIALUP=0.862, HELO_EQ_DSL=1.129, HOST_EQ_DIALUP=0.862, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6TarjKdOEr+d; Sun, 21 Feb 2010 18:23:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from r190-135-198-223.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy (r190-135-143-168.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy [190.135.143.168]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73C3E28C21B; Sun, 21 Feb 2010 18:23:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from 190.135.143.168 by eforwardct3.name-services.com; Sun, 21 Feb 2010 20:24:56 -0600 Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 20:24:56 -0600 From: dnsext-archive@ietf.org Subject: Let manhood reveal excitement To: Message-ID: <000d01cab366$394e7680$6400a8c0@disproportions> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-2"; reply-type=original Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal What discounts on medicaments have we prepared for you? We have 30%, 40% and even 60% off, depending on what exact good from our 400-name spectrum you may want. Purcahse and receive your package via airmail or courier service to your house! http://img714.imageshack.us/img714/967/sockalosky.swf From dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Sun Feb 21 21:59:17 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 740FD3A7507 for ; Sun, 21 Feb 2010 21:59:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.125 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.125 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, HELO_EQ_CZ=0.445, HOST_EQ_BROADBND=1.118, HOST_EQ_CZ=0.904, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_20=1.546, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_02=0.383, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_3=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_SBL=20, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, URI_HEX=0.368, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Gqf1hWX8DevM for ; Sun, 21 Feb 2010 21:59:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from 28.39.broadband14.iol.cz (28.39.broadband14.iol.cz [90.181.39.28]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 884383A68C3 for ; Sun, 21 Feb 2010 21:59:15 -0800 (PST) From: "SuperShop on-line" To: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: For dnsext-archive,we return to -80% prices Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <20100222055915.884383A68C3@core3.amsl.com> Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 21:59:15 -0800 (PST)
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From disman-web-archive@ietf.org Mon Feb 22 00:29:29 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53D5328C0CF for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 00:29:29 -0800 (PST) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char C2 hex): From: Approved VIAGRA\302\256 Store ; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 00:29:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from afst.ca (unknown [115.113.6.11]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 02CE328C11F for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 00:27:51 -0800 (PST) From: Approved VIAGRA® Store Subject: Special Discount 70% for dnsext-archive@ietf.org To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20100222082907.02CE328C11F@core3.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 00:27:51 -0800 (PST)
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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Feb 22 06:52:27 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 64A0728C310; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 06:52:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.365 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.365 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.235, BAYES_00=-2.599, NO_RELAYS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zh1gRt6gBNbO; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 06:52:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8589328C296; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 06:52:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NjZYw-000HXQ-KD for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 14:47:06 +0000 Received: from [2001:1890:1112:1::20] (helo=mail.ietf.org) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NjZYt-000HWv-86 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 14:47:03 +0000 Received: by core3.amsl.com (Postfix, from userid 0) id 9524D28C0DC; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 06:45:01 -0800 (PST) From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org To: i-d-announce@ietf.org Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: [dnsext] I-D Action:draft-ietf-dnsext-dnssec-registry-fixes-02.txt Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <20100222144502.9524D28C0DC@core3.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 06:45:02 -0800 (PST) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the DNS Extensions Working Group of the IETF. Title : DNS Security (DNSSEC) DNSKEY IANA Registry Algorithm Status Addition Author(s) : S. Rose Filename : draft-ietf-dnsext-dnssec-registry-fixes-02.txt Pages : 10 Date : 2010-02-22 The DNS Security Extensions (DNSSEC) has an IANA registry to allocate cryptographic algorithm suites for use in generating digital signatures over DNS data. Newly introduced cryptographic algorithms to DNSSEC mean implementers need to know which algorithms need to be implemented, which are optional, and which are obsolete. This document adds a column to the IANA registry table for Domain Name System Security (DNSSEC) Algorithm Numbers to list their status for use. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-dnsext-dnssec-registry-fixes-02.txt Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-dnsext-dnssec-registry-fixes-02.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2010-02-22064230.I-D@ietf.org> --NextPart-- From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Feb 22 07:04:53 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09EDB28C300; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 07:04:53 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.524 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.524 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.475, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ngMRo1EWCkZb; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 07:04:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD5DC28C1EE; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 07:04:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NjZnu-000KAx-7B for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 15:02:34 +0000 Received: from [129.6.16.227] (helo=smtp.nist.gov) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NjZnp-000KA9-9g for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 15:02:29 +0000 Received: from WSXGHUB1.xchange.nist.gov (wsxghub1.nist.gov [129.6.18.96]) by smtp.nist.gov (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id o1MF2Gce005845 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 10:02:16 -0500 Received: from MBCLUSTER.xchange.nist.gov ([fe80::41df:f63f:c718:e08]) by WSXGHUB1.xchange.nist.gov ([2002:8106:1260::8106:1260]) with mapi; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 10:02:16 -0500 From: "Rose, Scott W." To: "namedroppers@ops.ietf.org" Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 10:02:15 -0500 Subject: [dnsext] new version of draft registry-fixes posted Thread-Topic: new version of draft registry-fixes posted Thread-Index: Acqz0ATiueplAmqQbUKzK+LFQqRgpA== Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-NIST-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-NIST-MailScanner-From: scott.rose@nist.gov Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: Just a maintenance release for people to use when discussing. This -02 version incorporates all the proposed changes from: http://ops.ietf.org/lists/namedroppers/namedroppers.2010/msg00064.html Comments welcome, but use this email rather than the Gmail address in the draft. That is there because some strange reason our mail server bounces stuff from the I-D tool. 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We create the highest quality range of Vertu replicas in the market, easily distinguishable by the high level of finish as well as the firmware and software, which are identical to the originals http://jewett816.spaces.live.com From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Feb 22 07:36:19 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0B5728C1F3; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 07:36:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.52 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.52 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.920, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_INFO=1.448, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HjVaWas6wq1m; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 07:36:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D388A28C1D8; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 07:36:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NjaIQ-000OKF-J7 for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 15:34:06 +0000 Received: from [208.86.224.201] (helo=mail.yitter.info) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:CAMELLIA256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NjaIM-000OJq-TI for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 15:34:03 +0000 Received: from crankycanuck.ca (69-196-144-230.dsl.teksavvy.com [69.196.144.230]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.yitter.info (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 1677C1ECB4E8 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 15:34:00 +0000 (UTC) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 10:33:59 -0500 From: Andrew Sullivan To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] new version of draft registry-fixes posted Message-ID: <20100222153358.GE64954@shinkuro.com> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: Dear colleagues, On Mon, Feb 22, 2010 at 10:02:15AM -0500, Rose, Scott W. wrote: > Just a maintenance release for people to use when discussing. This -02 > version incorporates all the proposed changes from: > > http://ops.ietf.org/lists/namedroppers/namedroppers.2010/msg00064.html > > Comments welcome, but use this email rather than the Gmail address in the > draft. That is there because some strange reason our mail server bounces > stuff from the I-D tool. Unless Scott or I hears something by next Monday (2010-03-01, the -00 cutoff date), I'll take the silence as agreement that all the LC comments were addressed and I'll do the PROTO write-up and send this to the IESG. Thanks! A -- Andrew Sullivan ajs@shinkuro.com Shinkuro, Inc. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Feb 22 07:57:27 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED67A3A7C92; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 07:57:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.503 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.503 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.903, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_INFO=1.448, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gTgKo5Oc3r5x; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 07:57:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2689628C1D5; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 07:57:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NjacD-0001Cz-KF for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 15:54:33 +0000 Received: from [208.86.224.201] (helo=mail.yitter.info) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:CAMELLIA256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NjacB-0001Ce-9O for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 15:54:31 +0000 Received: from crankycanuck.ca (69-196-144-230.dsl.teksavvy.com [69.196.144.230]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.yitter.info (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 222E91ECB4E8 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 15:54:30 +0000 (UTC) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 10:54:27 -0500 From: Andrew Sullivan To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: LC and subject lines (was: [dnsext] Draft: WGLC draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-tcp-requirements) Message-ID: <20100222155427.GI64954@shinkuro.com> References: <201002181317.OAA20214@TR-Sys.de> <20100220102024.GC16126@vacation.karoshi.com.> <98039.1266683462@nsa.vix.com> <201002202235.o1KMZrwm032192@drugs.dv.isc.org> <20100221125823.GA30335@vacation.karoshi.com.> <3e1abd2c1002210714g74c0946aob41144e8f453379b@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3e1abd2c1002210714g74c0946aob41144e8f453379b@mail.gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On Sun, Feb 21, 2010 at 11:14:35AM -0400, Brian Dickson wrote: > I beg to differ. ;-) > > *30* years ago, i.e. when RFC 793 was written, clock speed was the > dominating factor. [&c] This offshoot is interesting, and I don't want at all to discourage discsussion of the topic. I do, however, wish to encourage people to change the subject line if you're not actually responding to the WGLC for the document. Thanks! A -- Andrew Sullivan ajs@shinkuro.com Shinkuro, Inc. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Feb 22 08:25:33 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1839C28C131; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 08:25:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 4.058 X-Spam-Level: **** X-Spam-Status: No, score=4.058 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.137, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_EQ_BLUEYON=1.4, HELO_MISMATCH_UK=1.749, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, MIME_BASE64_BLANKS=0.041, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id N10dImswVPuO; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 08:25:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F8F93A72EC; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 08:25:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Njb1s-0004uk-32 for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 16:21:04 +0000 Received: from [195.188.213.6] (helo=smtp-out3.blueyonder.co.uk) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Njb1p-0004uK-Bu for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 16:21:01 +0000 Received: from [172.23.170.138] (helo=anti-virus01-09) by smtp-out3.blueyonder.co.uk with smtp (Exim 4.52) id 1Njb1j-0003qh-Aj; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 16:20:55 +0000 Received: from [92.238.99.235] (helo=GeorgeLaptop) by asmtp-out4.blueyonder.co.uk with esmtpa (Exim 4.52) id 1Njb1i-0000NF-EQ; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 16:20:54 +0000 Message-ID: <686D63AD663B4644855A2A16E86AF640@localhost> From: "George Barwood" To: "Nicholas Weaver" , =?Windows-1252?Q?Alfred_H=CEnes?= Cc: , References: <201002181805.TAA21024@TR-Sys.de> <71F913A0-0859-4E69-BAAE-E9DC482471AF@icsi.berkeley.edu> Subject: Re: [dnsext] Draft: WGLC draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-tcp-requirements Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 16:20:57 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5843 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: LS0tLS0gT3JpZ2luYWwgTWVzc2FnZSAtLS0tLSANCkZyb206ICJOaWNob2xhcyBXZWF2ZXIiIDxu d2VhdmVyQElDU0kuQmVya2VsZXkuRURVPg0KDQo+IFRoYXQgcHJvdG9jb2wgY2hhbmdlIGhhcyBh bHJlYWR5IGhhcHBlbmVkIGZvciBIVFRQOiAgQm90aCB3ZWIgY2xpZW50cyBhbmQgd2ViIHNlcnZl cnMgYXJlIHZlcnkgYWdncmVzc2l2ZSBpbiBjbG9zaW5nIGNvbm5lY3Rpb25zIHdpdGggUlNUIGlu c3RlYWQgb2YgRklOLCBwYXJ0aWN1bGFybHkgSUlTIGFuZCBJRQ0KDQpJIG5vdGljZSB0aGF0IE1p Y3Jvc29mdCBUQ1AgaW1wbGVtZW50YXRpb25zIGFwcGVhciB0byBnbyB0byBUSU1FX1dBSVQgc3Rh dGUgcmF0aGVyIHRoYW4gQ0xPU0VEIG9uIHJlY2VwdGlvbiBvZiBhIFJTVCwNCmNvbnRyYXJ5IHRv IHRoZSBzdGFuZGFyZCwgQUZBSUNTLiBUaGlzIGRvZXMgc2VlbSB0byBtYWtlIHNvbWUgc2Vuc2Ug dGhvdWdoLg0KDQpJIGNhbiBzZWUgdGhhdCB0aGUgdXNlIG9mIFJTVCBpcyBkb3VidGZ1bC4gRXZl biBpZiBubyBhY3Rpdml0eSBoYXMgYmVlbiBzZWVuIGJ5IHRoZSBzZXJ2ZXIgZm9yIDIgbWludXRl cywgdGhhdCBkb2Vzbid0IG1lYW4NCnRoZSBjbGllbnQgbWlnaHQgbm90IGhhdmUganVzdCBzZW50 IGEgcGFja2V0LCBhbmQgdGhlcmVmb3JlIGEgc3Vic2VxdWVudCBjb25uZWN0aW9uIGNvdWxkIGlu IHRoZW9yeSByZS11c2Ugc2VxdWVuY2UgbnVtYmVycywNCndpdGggdW5wcmVkaWN0YWJsZSByZXN1 bHRzLg0KDQpIb3dldmVyLCB3aXRoIHRoZSAic3RhbmRhcmQiICggaW5jcmVtZW50IGV2ZXJ5IDQg bWljcm9zZWNvbmQpIG1ldGhvZCBvZiBnZW5lcmF0aW5nIGluaXRpYWwgc2VxdWVuY2UNCm51bWJl cnMsIGl0IHNlZW1zIHVubGlrZWx5IHRoYXQgdGhlcmUgd291bGQgYmUgYSBwcm9ibGVtIGluIHBy YWN0aWNlLCBnaXZlbiB0aGF0IEROUyBxdWVyaWVzIGFyZSBsb3cgYmFuZHdpZHRoLg0KDQpBbHNv LCAgc2luY2UgYSBETlMgcXVlcnkgd2lsbCBhbHdheXMgZml0IGluIGEgc2luZ2xlIHBhY2tldCwg YW5kIHRoZSBETlMgY2xpZW50IHdpbGwgdmFsaWRhdGUgdGhlIHF1ZXN0aW9uDQp3aGVuIHByb2Nl c3NpbmcgdGhlIHJlc3BvbnNlLCBpdCBtYXkgYmUgaGFyZCB0byBnZXQgYSByZWFsIHByb2JsZW0u DQoNCkknbSBsZWZ0IHdpdGggYW4gdW5lYXN5IGZlZWxpbmcgdGhvdWdoLCBhbmQgdGhlb3J5IGFu ZCBwcmFjdGljZSBzZWVtIHRvIGJlIGRpdmVyZ2luZyBpbiBhIHNsaWdodGx5IGFsYXJtaW5nIHdh eS4NCg0K From shallowst8@rhenia-bungalows.com Mon Feb 22 08:35:08 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0481F28C327; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 08:35:08 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -31.653 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-31.653 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, HELO_DYNAMIC_HCC=4.295, HELO_EQ_DSL=1.129, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_PH_SURBL=1.787, URIBL_SBL=20, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100, XMAILER_MIMEOLE_OL_465CD=1.637] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ViVBpmJPxqFw; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 08:35:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from 78-43-128.adsl.cyta.gr (78-43-128.adsl.cyta.gr [78.87.43.128]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 425AC28C326; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 08:35:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from 78.87.43.128 by mail.rhenia-bungalows.com; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 18:37:03 +0200 From: "Blogger" To: Subject: Your Blogger account Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 18:37:03 +0200 Message-ID: <000d01cab3dd$43b0b940$6400a8c0@shallowst8> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0006_01CAB3DD.43B0B940" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.3416 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1506 Importance: Normal This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01CAB3DD.43B0B940 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Blogger account owner, To update your Blogger account please click the following link: http://www.google.com/update/VE.php?service=blogger&c=27285013433548179969260553805014&email=edu-discuss-request@ietf.org Thank you for using Blogger. 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Dear Blogger account owner,
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------=_NextPart_000_0006_01CAB3DD.43B0B940-- From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Feb 22 08:42:05 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E01D728C2E9; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 08:42:05 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.132 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.132 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.237, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, J_CHICKENPOX_61=0.6, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1ZO6-UikygtY; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 08:42:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 500EF3A81FC; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 08:42:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NjbHh-0006yE-BZ for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 16:37:25 +0000 Received: from [66.92.146.20] (helo=stora.ogud.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NjbHd-0006xp-QQ for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 16:37:22 +0000 Received: from [IPv6:::1] (nyttbox.md.ogud.com [10.20.30.4]) by stora.ogud.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o1MGbF4A062634 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 11:37:15 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from ogud@ogud.com) Message-ID: <4B82B2BC.5040502@ogud.com> Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 11:37:16 -0500 From: Olafur Gudmundsson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.1; en-GB; rv:1.9.1.7) Gecko/20100111 Thunderbird/3.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: namedroppers Subject: [dnsext] DNSEXT agenda items at IETF-77 Anaheim Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.67 on 10.20.30.4 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: As the chairs promished, when announcing the Interim meeting, this message is to confirm that DNSEXT will be meeting at the IETF-77 in Anaheim. The focus of the first hour of the meeting will be on the topic of "zone equivalence". The chairs strongly recommend that people document their ideas in this area in the form of an internet draft RSN. The second hour will be for other topics;s send in requiests soon. Important dates: 26 February Final Agenda posted 01 March deadline for 00 submissions 08 March deadline for internet draft submissions 10 March draft WG agenda due 12 March deadline for early bird registrations 21-26 IETF-77 Anaheim DNSEXT is currently scheduled for Tuesday at 13:00 PLEASE check the official Agenda page for changes: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/77/agenda.html or the unofficial one that IMHO is more useful http://tools.ietf.org/agenda/77/ Olafur & Andrew From repaymentspi76@freedonation.com Mon Feb 22 08:48:59 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9DA628C129; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 08:48:59 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -85.482 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-85.482 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_FAKE_RCVD_LINE_B=5.777, HELO_DYNAMIC_DHCP=1.398, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lzl20s4BWwK9; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 08:48:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from cm183.sigma105.maxonline.com.sg (cm183.sigma105.maxonline.com.sg [218.212.105.183]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A445A28C135; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 08:48:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from 218.212.105.183 by nullmx.freedonation.com; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 08:50:52 -0800 Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 08:50:52 -0800 From: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: Vigor-rejuvenating solutions To: Message-ID: <000d01cab3df$318af670$6400a8c0@repaymentspi76> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal Something like viruses or allergy bothers your normal life? 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With our large selection of goods and discount prices you will always be a satisfied client! http://catchword4lcj.blogspot.com From dnsop-bounces@ietf.org Mon Feb 22 08:49:01 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A12628C135 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 08:49:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: The results of your email commands From: dnsop-bounces@ietf.org To: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1642904098==" Message-ID: Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 08:49:00 -0800 Precedence: bulk X-BeenThere: dnsop@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 List-Id: IETF DNSOP WG mailing list X-List-Administrivia: yes Sender: dnsop-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: dnsop-bounces@ietf.org --===============1642904098== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The results of your email command are provided below. 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With our large selection of goods and discount prices you will always be a satisfied client! http://catchword4lcj.blogspot.com --===============1642904098==-- From repaymentspi76@freedonation.com Mon Feb 22 08:48:59 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9DA628C129; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 08:48:59 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -85.482 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-85.482 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_FAKE_RCVD_LINE_B=5.777, HELO_DYNAMIC_DHCP=1.398, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lzl20s4BWwK9; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 08:48:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from cm183.sigma105.maxonline.com.sg (cm183.sigma105.maxonline.com.sg [218.212.105.183]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A445A28C135; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 08:48:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from 218.212.105.183 by nullmx.freedonation.com; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 08:50:52 -0800 Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 08:50:52 -0800 From: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: Vigor-rejuvenating solutions To: Message-ID: <000d01cab3df$318af670$6400a8c0@repaymentspi76> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal Something like viruses or allergy bothers your normal life? 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With our large selection of goods and discount prices you will always be a satisfied client! http://catchword4lcj.blogspot.com From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Feb 22 09:50:41 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD4CB28C340; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 09:50:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.619 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.619 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.020, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RB1dFahklM28; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 09:50:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42B2328C221; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 09:50:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NjcNP-000FgM-VF for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 17:47:23 +0000 Received: from [2001:4f8:3:bb:230:48ff:fe5a:2f38] (helo=nsa.vix.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:CAMELLIA256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NjcNL-000FfH-EN for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 17:47:19 +0000 Received: from nsa.vix.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nsa.vix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2336DAA7E2 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 17:47:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vixie@nsa.vix.com) From: Paul Vixie To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] Draft: WGLC draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-tcp-requirements In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 22 Feb 2010 16:20:57 GMT." <686D63AD663B4644855A2A16E86AF640@localhost> References: <201002181805.TAA21024@TR-Sys.de> <71F913A0-0859-4E69-BAAE-E9DC482471AF@icsi.berkeley.edu> <686D63AD663B4644855A2A16E86AF640@localhost> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.1; nil; GNU Emacs 22.2.1 Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 17:47:19 +0000 Message-ID: <30608.1266860839@nsa.vix.com> Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: > From: "George Barwood" > Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 16:20:57 -0000 > > > That protocol change has already happened for HTTP: Both web clients > > and web servers are very aggressive in closing connections with RST > > instead of FIN, particularly IIS and IE > > I notice that Microsoft TCP implementations appear to go to TIME_WAIT > state rather than CLOSED on reception of a RST, contrary to the standard, > AFAICS. This does seem to make some sense though. that's because when other people start bending the standard, then everybody else has to bend it back. sort of makes me wish that first movers wouldn't. > I can see that the use of RST is doubtful. Even if no activity has been > seen by the server for 2 minutes, that doesn't mean the client might not > have just sent a packet, and therefore a subsequent connection could in > theory re-use sequence numbers, with unpredictable results. not only that, RST is dangerous in its own right, and some implementations just ignore it. you don't have to have the right sequence number, so all you have to know is the initiator's port number (one of about 60000), both ip addresses, and the constant "53", in order to spoof-close a connection. (bgp routers can put MD5 into the TCP header, so that bgp sessions won't be subject to this trivial denial-of-service attack.) this is why TCP/CT does away with RST and supports trusted unilateral FIN. in other words, rather than misuse RST, william is fixing FIN so that there is no longer any reason to misuse, or even to have, RST. > Also, since a DNS query will always fit in a single packet, and the DNS > client will validate the question when processing the response, it may be > hard to get a real problem. updates do not always fit in a single packet. not all of dns is in QUERY. and i can imagine SIG(0) where multiple keys are in use, not fitting in a single packet, even for QUERY. let's not simplify our assumptions into the realm of absurdity. > I'm left with an uneasy feeling though, and theory and practice seem to > be diverging in a slightly alarming way. +1. 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With our large variety of goods and lowered prices you will always be a satisfied buyer! http://astatine7287o.blogspot.com From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Feb 22 11:05:10 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3488C28C383; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 11:05:10 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rlssutiFjqc4; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 11:05:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D21C28C381; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 11:05:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NjdWx-0000HD-C4 for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 19:01:19 +0000 Received: from [2001:1890:1112:1::20] (helo=mail.ietf.org) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NjdWs-0000F0-IE for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 19:01:14 +0000 Received: by core3.amsl.com (Postfix, from userid 30) id 140D328C34B; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 10:59:12 -0800 (PST) X-idtracker: yes To: IETF-Announce From: The IESG Reply-to: ietf@ietf.org CC: Subject: [dnsext] Last Call: draft-ietf-dnsext-dnssec-alg-allocation (Cryptographic Algorithm Identifier Allocation for DNSSEC) to Proposed Standard Message-Id: <20100222185913.140D328C34B@core3.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 10:59:13 -0800 (PST) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: The IESG has received a request from the DNS Extensions WG (dnsext) to consider the following document: - 'Cryptographic Algorithm Identifier Allocation for DNSSEC ' as a Proposed Standard The IESG plans to make a decision in the next few weeks, and solicits final comments on this action. Please send substantive comments to the ietf@ietf.org mailing lists by 2010-03-08. Exceptionally, comments may be sent to iesg@ietf.org instead. In either case, please retain the beginning of the Subject line to allow automated sorting. The file can be obtained via http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-dnsext-dnssec-alg-allocation-02.txt IESG discussion can be tracked via https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/pidtracker.cgi?command=view_id&dTag=19067&rfc_flag=0 From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Feb 22 11:05:10 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 68D8428C381; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 11:05:10 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, NO_RELAYS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id w-LMFGqzjyfI; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 11:05:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D14328C350; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 11:05:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NjdYe-0000YH-40 for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 19:03:04 +0000 Received: from [2001:1890:1112:1::20] (helo=mail.ietf.org) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NjdYZ-0000XF-Ub for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 19:03:00 +0000 Received: by core3.amsl.com (Postfix, from userid 30) id A573B28C1B2; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 11:00:58 -0800 (PST) X-idtracker: yes To: IETF-Announce From: The IESG Reply-to: ietf@ietf.org CC: Subject: [dnsext] Last Call: draft-ietf-dnsext-axfr-clarify (DNS Zone Transfer Protocol (AXFR)) to Proposed Standard Message-Id: <20100222190058.A573B28C1B2@core3.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 11:00:58 -0800 (PST) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: The IESG has received a request from the DNS Extensions WG (dnsext) to consider the following document: - 'DNS Zone Transfer Protocol (AXFR) ' as a Proposed Standard The IESG plans to make a decision in the next few weeks, and solicits final comments on this action. Please send substantive comments to the ietf@ietf.org mailing lists by 2010-03-08. Exceptionally, comments may be sent to iesg@ietf.org instead. In either case, please retain the beginning of the Subject line to allow automated sorting. The file can be obtained via http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-dnsext-axfr-clarify-13.txt IESG discussion can be tracked via https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/pidtracker.cgi?command=view_id&dTag=5123&rfc_flag=0 From dnsext-archive@ietf.org Mon Feb 22 11:31:09 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 387683A8213 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 11:31:09 -0800 (PST) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char AE hex): From: "VIAGRA \256 Official Site"[...] X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -52.021 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-52.021 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, HELO_EQ_DSL=1.129, HELO_EQ_DYNAMIC=1.144, HELO_EQ_RU=0.595, HOST_EQ_RU=0.875, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_MIME_NO_HTML_TAG=0.097, MANGLED_OFF=2.3, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_FROM_DRUGS=1.666, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xS63vt0uXsLD for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 11:31:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from 75.165.c10008-a77.dsl-dynamic.vsi.ru (75.165.c10008-a77.dsl-dynamic.vsi.ru [77.45.165.75]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 302273A8225 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 11:30:59 -0800 (PST) X-Originating-IP: [15.3.83.7] X-Originating-Email: [dnsext-archive@ietf.org] X-Sender: dnsext-archive@ietf.org To: Subject: RE: DISCOUNT ID26394 75% 0FF on Pfizer ! 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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Feb 22 12:21:00 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D56928C0FF; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 12:21:00 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.479 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.479 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.431, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6BHSHxfYrCiY; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 12:20:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7DD83A8142; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 12:20:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NjeiV-0009Tn-37 for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 20:17:19 +0000 Received: from [192.150.186.11] (helo=fruitcake.ICSI.Berkeley.EDU) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NjeiS-0009TF-D0 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 20:17:16 +0000 Received: from [IPv6:::1] (jack.ICSI.Berkeley.EDU [192.150.186.73]) by fruitcake.ICSI.Berkeley.EDU (8.12.11.20060614/8.12.11) with ESMTP id o1MKGvvB024881; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 12:16:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: [dnsext] Draft: WGLC draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-tcp-requirements Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Nicholas Weaver In-Reply-To: <30608.1266860839@nsa.vix.com> Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 12:16:57 -0800 Cc: Nicholas Weaver , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <201002181805.TAA21024@TR-Sys.de> <71F913A0-0859-4E69-BAAE-E9DC482471AF@icsi.berkeley.edu> <686D63AD663B4644855A2A16E86AF640@localhost> <30608.1266860839@nsa.vix.com> To: Paul Vixie X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: >=20 >> I can see that the use of RST is doubtful. Even if no activity has = been >> seen by the server for 2 minutes, that doesn't mean the client might = not >> have just sent a packet, and therefore a subsequent connection could = in >> theory re-use sequence numbers, with unpredictable results. >=20 > not only that, RST is dangerous in its own right, and some = implementations > just ignore it. you don't have to have the right sequence number, so = all > you have to know is the initiator's port number (one of about 60000), = both > ip addresses, and the constant "53", in order to spoof-close a = connection. > (bgp routers can put MD5 into the TCP header, so that bgp sessions = won't be > subject to this trivial denial-of-service attack.) Actually, the spec says "in window", and a lot of stacks only accept = direct in sequence RSTs, to prevent this issue from occuring. The BGP routers also use the TTL 256 trick as well. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Feb 22 13:08:19 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E4B128C1FA; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 13:08:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.395 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.395 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.100, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Dn45Ph7zwiBo; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 13:08:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B077528C17D; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 13:08:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NjfTu-000EBA-0U for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 21:06:18 +0000 Received: from [74.125.92.27] (helo=qw-out-2122.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NjfTp-000EAI-Cz for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 21:06:13 +0000 Received: by qw-out-2122.google.com with SMTP id 8so663681qwh.65 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 13:06:12 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from :user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=HzoIbXpHwRpSr4uSwJq5NCIXS+qZhgOrBGn9wtkVHlg=; b=cQEVj1HCWtUtUFNDMXYT+5Vljnz83YpaepSgK0A76gG9Kx+i0JO+5AnmIgITf56erh KOK6hrkScm8m0JsG4CAjBIVezZ1nqjoLEH9Dz2tz2OcLG+GMvr4Cj6WR1hokD5talgCw WQ3TLt+6lX6X/VsXx81y1UKZxZcY2SC3wL84U= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject :references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=hdlYGLudJN2beOcJcrtGKuzO+c+iOHRAi4j5Sh88Vaju93+rVZ6PCvBCsCXPkA8Q1D VomBpYwa1oF5ahifz65wpHo24wxBu2iyQCBCjiQFvRETYzNo0zSO2f5lMohupUnURZaY Mmk3uGWqCyb0QvUrA2fZAfGV58y0NAxvcml3U= Received: by 10.224.36.69 with SMTP id s5mr6308627qad.359.1266872768297; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 13:06:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from Wastrel.local (c-68-40-195-221.hsd1.mi.comcast.net [68.40.195.221]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 23sm2976231qyk.3.2010.02.22.13.06.06 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Mon, 22 Feb 2010 13:06:07 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4B82F1BC.7020000@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 16:06:04 -0500 From: William Allen Simpson User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Macintosh/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alex Bligh CC: Brian Dickson , bmanning@vacation.karoshi.com, Mark Andrews , Paul Vixie , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] timeouts: WGLC draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-tcp-requirements References: <201002181317.OAA20214@TR-Sys.de> <20100220102024.GC16126@vacation.karoshi.com.> <98039.1266683462@nsa.vix.com> <201002202235.o1KMZrwm032192@drugs.dv.isc.org> <20100221125823.GA30335@vacation.karoshi.com.> <3e1abd2c1002210714g74c0946aob41144e8f453379b@mail.gmail.com> <4B816FBB.30000@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: Alex Bligh wrote: > You are seriously suggesting that the design constraint should be the > ability to reliably reach an auth server by 255 hops to the moon and back? > Note: this isn't "reliably reach", this is reliably reject duplicate and/or misrouted datagrams.... RFC 791: Some higher level reliable connection protocols are based on assumptions that old duplicate datagrams will not arrive after a certain time elapses. The TTL is a way for such protocols to have an assurance that their assumption is met. I'm suggesting that as TCP was designed and implemented, the moon was a consideration. You are old enough to remember moon landings? You do know that TCP/IP was originally specified at that time? > Secondly, I had thought that if the SYN sender doesn't receive the > ACK within 75 seconds, the connection establishment is aborted. So > paths with an RTT longer than 75 seconds are not going to support > TCP (without tuning) anyway. > Please read RFC 1122: "In particular, R2 for a SYN segment MUST be set large enough to provide retransmission of the segment for at least 3 minutes" > Oh, and for completeness, your multiplier is wrong. If I route a circuit > via the moon via frame relay or similar, I could take you to the moon > and back a few hundred times on a single IP layer hop. So why stop at 255? > That reading of the DNS over TCP standard is pointless. Once somebody has done such silly things, it doesn't work well. Doing silly things is not a goal, and not worthy of our time here. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Feb 22 13:10:52 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97D5F28C3A9; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 13:10:52 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.401 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.401 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.906, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id htR-kZjXHYZo; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 13:10:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A169A28C1FA; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 13:10:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NjfX8-000ERS-1n for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 21:09:38 +0000 Received: from [66.92.146.20] (helo=stora.ogud.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NjfX2-000EQj-4Y for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 21:09:32 +0000 Received: from [IPv6:::1] (nyttbox.md.ogud.com [10.20.30.4]) by stora.ogud.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o1ML9QVE065387 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 16:09:26 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from ogud@ogud.com) Message-ID: <4B82F285.6000602@ogud.com> Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 16:09:25 -0500 From: Olafur Gudmundsson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.1; en-GB; rv:1.9.1.7) Gecko/20100111 Thunderbird/3.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: namedroppers Subject: TCP details Re: [dnsext] Draft: WGLC draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-tcp-requirements References: <201002181805.TAA21024@TR-Sys.de> <71F913A0-0859-4E69-BAAE-E9DC482471AF@icsi.berkeley.edu> In-Reply-To: <71F913A0-0859-4E69-BAAE-E9DC482471AF@icsi.berkeley.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.67 on 10.20.30.4 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: After consuting with our AD the chairs have decided to take the TCP details questions off the table in this working group and ask the Transport AD's to help us get expert answers. Thus the quesions in section 5 are not part of the working group last call i.e. How long to keep socket open ? and What are acceptable/preferred ways for server to close connection prematurely. Thus the question on the table is simplified to: Do the members of the working group think this document, that specifies that TCP transport must be supported by all DNS implementation is beneficial? Once this question is answered in the positive, formal advice will be requested, the chairs will notify working group in advance as to where that discussion will take place. Once we get advice on recommendations to put in section 5 the document will be updated and submitted for IETF Last Call after short review by this working group. Olafur From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Feb 22 13:21:12 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85CD928C37D; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 13:21:12 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.409 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.409 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.086, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Yk+qzOcBOwhr; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 13:21:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9338E28C13B; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 13:21:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NjfgC-000FVX-41 for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 21:19:00 +0000 Received: from [74.125.92.25] (helo=qw-out-2122.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Njfg8-000FVE-MZ for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 21:18:56 +0000 Received: by qw-out-2122.google.com with SMTP id 8so666755qwh.65 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 13:18:55 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from :user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=nDBkWv24QwvQYuk74B41nu5Jd7af2UTK+QFIad6JDYg=; b=xC7Ooamz0xEZsaSuWIZm6R8mLfr1tGaA4rOjW4t/R7bZQtaCZGeW9mIMzEY+uOwfzD DUAD6nJJbVBSkrW8NTaQPemPAvZp6Gabh8bk1zoRIydJ+D6fCKyRqPhtClGfPUdRG1Xd Q47+uof1vNBM/kHmFqvM5s2YPrMpE1zjhbuKM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=wRVaKrCSp0jMoUyJBQ8fr/nS8gCbklaLuArBFr4nUB1/nvas2U66Kc+W3mMqoh/c9Z aUVCeEZqh4WsQxI1evG0KJi5Jjrck5Ms0MkZU7nLepWJ5RbeQ30TwWIRr5wdUF7fZR06 qEgCdcb5/IAx7gstZQNLXrdy67VXC2X58PTYw= Received: by 10.229.88.193 with SMTP id b1mr3301796qcm.27.1266873535832; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 13:18:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from Wastrel.local (c-68-40-195-221.hsd1.mi.comcast.net [68.40.195.221]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 21sm2974461qyk.8.2010.02.22.13.18.54 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Mon, 22 Feb 2010 13:18:54 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4B82F4BD.1040102@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 16:18:53 -0500 From: William Allen Simpson User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Macintosh/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: [dnsext] Inherent stickyness: WGLC draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-tcp-requirements Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: I'm starting a new thread, because I feel like this is being overlooked. DNS over UDP is flexible. If the first try doesn't work quickly enough, we just try another server. Everybody is required to have at least two servers per domain. DNS over TCP is sticky. If we found the server with UDP, we *have* to assume that it accepts TCP. If it doesn't respond, we wait at least 3 minutes (according to RFC 1123) before giving up and trying another. That's much too long for practical purposes. So, here my proposed revision of Brian's list of actions -- a resource starved TCP server should: (a) Support SYN cookies. This will kick in as congestion occurs. Many stacks have support these daya, so this is not a stretch. (b) Reap idle TCBs gracefully (FIN), starting with those with smallest RTT's observed. Local traffic can recover most quickly. (c) Delete unacked SYN TCBs, oldest first. Old SYNs currently require at least 360 seconds; the least pain will be felt by local traffic. (d) Ungraceful reaping -- no RST, toss the TCB, *longest* RTT first. Any outstanding traffic will generate RST as it arrives. This also favors local traffic. (e) Stop serving UDP, to kick resolvers over to another server. This is really a last resort -- the attackers have won.... (f) Reject SYNs (requires using RST). Note that this makes DNS TCP as sticky as possible, keeping existing connections, servicing SYNs as much as possible. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Feb 22 13:28:25 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B38AF28C3C4; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 13:28:25 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.508 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.508 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.635, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 44FKIwdCc7oF; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 13:28:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE22A28C3C3; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 13:28:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NjfmQ-000G4J-UD for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 21:25:26 +0000 Received: from [209.85.160.52] (helo=mail-pw0-f52.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NjfmO-000G3w-3U for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 21:25:24 +0000 Received: by pwi10 with SMTP id 10so2945389pwi.11 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 13:25:23 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.114.33.36 with SMTP id g36mr539796wag.98.1266873922798; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 13:25:22 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <4B82F285.6000602@ogud.com> References: <201002181805.TAA21024@TR-Sys.de> <71F913A0-0859-4E69-BAAE-E9DC482471AF@icsi.berkeley.edu> <4B82F285.6000602@ogud.com> Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 13:25:22 -0800 Message-ID: Subject: Re: TCP details Re: [dnsext] Draft: WGLC draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-tcp-requirements From: Matthew Dempsky To: namedroppers Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On Mon, Feb 22, 2010 at 1:09 PM, Olafur Gudmundsson wrote: > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Do the members of the working group think this document, > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0that specifies that TCP transport must be supported by all= DNS > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0implementation is beneficial? "all DNS implementations", no; "all *general purpose* DNS implementations",= yes. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Feb 22 13:38:19 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2599A28C3E7; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 13:38:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.42 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.42 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.075, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wtF-+imSRE6V; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 13:38:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 551AE28C3E6; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 13:38:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NjfxP-000H6x-6Z for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 21:36:47 +0000 Received: from [74.125.92.26] (helo=qw-out-2122.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NjfxL-000H6g-O7 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 21:36:44 +0000 Received: by qw-out-2122.google.com with SMTP id 8so671092qwh.65 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 13:36:42 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from :user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=OQRKV2x3kyyhSz/SvAUv8clDKuzHQpnbpEz9MKT1C6Q=; b=PSVf7jZOvZLJoZhgjp1EmW2xr7s+W0TDqaLqGkSqSqVszs1AEGNzp1wpzA4tomdV68 n+CS2YhVsybSVDT/4d3HmU4GlUpVzzn1dQ4dOG1V8JIcP+dvvYI8tEIIA506cl4owMKV EpkrpiGIhCV6BcDSnv6FCdpDp+GGSm14Yv9mQ= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject :references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=D0Hn7F78RmgzJMbqcuptYpblhD0ik8eZyS9d0+CoCOCj05imhpiPkPg7/YTX8DaouG 5Xh4cKiTsnUlsTbiE1e7/9O5uWLE2zWXRPLRIs1jtjRJVIZ3iuR3N6uOqVkmII9aGKya kMHJ6c8U1eWpMp6qq1JcEE9u56F2tfVS+6rlo= Received: by 10.224.50.144 with SMTP id z16mr2910270qaf.378.1266874587811; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 13:36:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from Wastrel.local (c-68-40-195-221.hsd1.mi.comcast.net [68.40.195.221]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 20sm3004707qyk.9.2010.02.22.13.36.24 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Mon, 22 Feb 2010 13:36:24 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4B82F8D6.40105@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 16:36:22 -0500 From: William Allen Simpson User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Macintosh/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Olafur Gudmundsson CC: namedroppers Subject: Re: [dnsext] Draft: WGLC draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-tcp-requirements References: <4B79D64C.1050702@ogud.com> In-Reply-To: <4B79D64C.1050702@ogud.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: Olafur Gudmundsson wrote: > Please send a message to namedroppers that you have reviewed the > document and whether you support it. > The document needs too many edits to go forward. Section 5 needs to be more completely specified. OTOH, I support in particular the statement: 4. Transport Protocol Selection All DNS implementations MUST support both UDP and TCP transport. 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It's easy to buy, when there are offers like these! http://cavern224.spaces.live.com From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Feb 22 14:23:38 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55B7F3A83B6; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 14:23:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.704, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EP1k6e6RlH86; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 14:23:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 866B83A82A1; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 14:23:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Njgdp-000LnD-Hm for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 22:20:37 +0000 Received: from [89.16.176.221] (helo=mail.avalus.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Njgdm-000Lmy-VL for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 22:20:35 +0000 Received: from [192.168.100.15] (87-194-71-186.bethere.co.uk [87.194.71.186]) by mail.avalus.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C0FD8C56418; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 22:20:31 +0000 (GMT) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 22:20:30 +0000 From: Alex Bligh Reply-To: Alex Bligh To: William Allen Simpson cc: Brian Dickson , bmanning@vacation.karoshi.com, Mark Andrews , Paul Vixie , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org, Alex Bligh Subject: Re: [dnsext] timeouts: WGLC draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-tcp-requirements Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <4B82F1BC.7020000@gmail.com> References: <201002181317.OAA20214@TR-Sys.de> <20100220102024.GC16126@vacation.karoshi.com.> <98039.1266683462@nsa.vix.com> <201002202235.o1KMZrwm032192@drugs.dv.isc.org> <20100221125823.GA30335@vacation.karoshi.com.> <3e1abd2c1002210714g74c0946aob41144e8f453379b@mail.gmail.com> <4B816FBB.30000@gmail.com> <4B82F1BC.7020000@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Mac OS X) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: --On 22 February 2010 16:06:04 -0500 William Allen Simpson wrote: > I'm suggesting that as TCP was designed and implemented, the moon was a > consideration. You are old enough to remember moon landings? You do > know that TCP/IP was originally specified at that time? Sure, but things move on. Hence, for instance, DTN. -- Alex Bligh From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Feb 22 14:23:49 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD3E53A83B6; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 14:23:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.604, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0e6yClBTmC1E; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 14:23:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE6013A82A1; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 14:23:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NjgfK-000LvB-5l for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 22:22:10 +0000 Received: from [89.16.176.221] (helo=mail.avalus.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NjgfH-000Lur-S3 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 22:22:08 +0000 Received: from [192.168.100.15] (87-194-71-186.bethere.co.uk [87.194.71.186]) by mail.avalus.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 73938C56518; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 22:22:06 +0000 (GMT) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 22:22:05 +0000 From: Alex Bligh Reply-To: Alex Bligh To: Olafur Gudmundsson , namedroppers cc: Alex Bligh Subject: Re: TCP details Re: [dnsext] Draft: WGLC draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-tcp-requirements Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <4B82F285.6000602@ogud.com> References: <201002181805.TAA21024@TR-Sys.de> <71F913A0-0859-4E69-BAAE-E9DC482471AF@icsi.berkeley.edu> <4B82F285.6000602@ogud.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Mac OS X) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: --On 22 February 2010 16:09:25 -0500 Olafur Gudmundsson wrote: > Thus the question on the table is simplified to: > Do the members of the working group think this document, > that specifies that TCP transport must be supported by all DNS > implementation is beneficial? Yes, though the carve out currently in the document is OK. -- Alex Bligh From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Feb 22 14:36:45 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63F1328C415; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 14:36:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.069 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.069 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.632, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_NET=0.611, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zqSkIoQqxbEU; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 14:36:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B77E28C3FB; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 14:36:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Njgrv-000NDa-6t for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 22:35:11 +0000 Received: from [201.216.232.80] (helo=smtp1.xmundo.net) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Njgrr-000NCw-JG for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 22:35:07 +0000 Received: from venus.xmundo.net (venus.xmundo.net [201.216.232.56]) by smtp1.xmundo.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id BEA516B6C9D; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 19:35:09 -0300 (ART) Received: from [192.168.0.100] (144-174-17-190.fibertel.com.ar [190.17.174.144]) (authenticated bits=0) by venus.xmundo.net (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id o1MMYw3r032374; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 19:34:59 -0300 Message-ID: <4B83068F.6030403@gont.com.ar> Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 19:34:55 -0300 From: Fernando Gont User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Windows/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Olafur Gudmundsson CC: namedroppers Subject: Re: TCP details Re: [dnsext] Draft: WGLC draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-tcp-requirements References: <201002181805.TAA21024@TR-Sys.de> <71F913A0-0859-4E69-BAAE-E9DC482471AF@icsi.berkeley.edu> <4B82F285.6000602@ogud.com> In-Reply-To: <4B82F285.6000602@ogud.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.96.0 OpenPGP: id=D076FFF1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH authentication, not delayed by milter-greylist-3.0 (venus.xmundo.net [201.216.232.56]); Mon, 22 Feb 2010 19:35:09 -0300 (ART) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: Olafur Gudmundsson wrote: > Thus the question on the table is simplified to: > Do the members of the working group think this document, > that specifies that TCP transport must be supported by all DNS > implementation is beneficial? Yes. And it should be published asap. But I don't get it. Why don't we ship the I-D as is? It does what it is supposed to do, already. Leave the advice on what to do with TCP (how to "tune" it for DNS) for another *separe* I-D. This I-D is very well withIn the wg charter. Do we really need to wait/depend from other areas WGs? Thanks, -- Fernando Gont e-mail: fernando@gont.com.ar || fgont@acm.org PGP Fingerprint: 7809 84F5 322E 45C7 F1C9 3945 96EE A9EF D076 FFF1 From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Feb 22 14:44:28 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4ED33A8404; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 14:44:28 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.057 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.057 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.620, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_NET=0.611, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XBxsA2eDzXlg; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 14:44:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCC013A8406; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 14:44:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Njgzh-000O5P-HC for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 22:43:13 +0000 Received: from [201.216.232.80] (helo=smtp1.xmundo.net) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Njgzd-000O4Z-29 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 22:43:09 +0000 Received: from venus.xmundo.net (venus.xmundo.net [201.216.232.56]) by smtp1.xmundo.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0B486B6806; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 19:43:11 -0300 (ART) Received: from [192.168.0.100] (144-174-17-190.fibertel.com.ar [190.17.174.144]) (authenticated bits=0) by venus.xmundo.net (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id o1MMh4fj006379; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 19:43:05 -0300 Message-ID: <4B830875.5020007@gont.com.ar> Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 19:43:01 -0300 From: Fernando Gont User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Windows/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: William Allen Simpson CC: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] Inherent stickyness: WGLC draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-tcp-requirements References: <4B82F4BD.1040102@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <4B82F4BD.1040102@gmail.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.96.0 OpenPGP: id=D076FFF1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH authentication, not delayed by milter-greylist-3.0 (venus.xmundo.net [201.216.232.56]); Mon, 22 Feb 2010 19:43:11 -0300 (ART) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: William, > DNS over TCP is sticky. If we found the server with UDP, we *have* to > assume that it accepts TCP. If it doesn't respond, we wait at least 3 > minutes (according to RFC 1123) before giving up and trying another. > That's much too long for practical purposes. Agreed. But that should be discused in a separate document. This document is just meant to clarify support for TCP. > So, here my proposed revision of Brian's list of actions -- a resource > starved TCP server should: > > (a) Support SYN cookies. This will kick in as congestion occurs. Many > stacks have support these daya, so this is not a stretch. > > (b) Reap idle TCBs gracefully (FIN), starting with those with smallest > RTT's observed. Local traffic can recover most quickly. > > (c) Delete unacked SYN TCBs, oldest first. Old SYNs currently require > at least 360 seconds; the least pain will be felt by local traffic. Unacked SYN/ACKs, you mean? > (d) Ungraceful reaping -- no RST, toss the TCB, *longest* RTT first. > Any outstanding traffic will generate RST as it arrives. This also > favors local traffic. The only issue here is that this reaction you propose is not described (I think) in the abstract TCP API of RFC 793. While aborting TCB's with an RSTs is described as an ABORT call. > (e) Stop serving UDP, to kick resolvers over to another server. This is > really a last resort -- the attackers have won.... This is way too risky, and I wouldn't apply it unless there's *lots* of analysis. > (f) Reject SYNs (requires using RST). Same here. > Note that this makes DNS TCP as sticky as possible, keeping existing > connections, servicing SYNs as much as possible. Meta-comment: at the point you're facing resource exhaustion, I'd argue that's it's probably not the best choice to "keep existing connections". I'd fail on the side of servicing more clients (over different connections that are then closed), rather keeping the same conenctions open. Thanks, -- Fernando Gont e-mail: fernando@gont.com.ar || fgont@acm.org PGP Fingerprint: 7809 84F5 322E 45C7 F1C9 3945 96EE A9EF D076 FFF1 From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Feb 22 15:08:25 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F66428C440; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 15:08:25 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.547 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.547 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.052, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BLNH-Bes9gc0; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 15:08:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3234828C43F; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 15:08:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NjhM8-0000dp-Jr for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 23:06:24 +0000 Received: from [66.92.146.20] (helo=stora.ogud.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NjhM5-0000dQ-AH for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 23:06:21 +0000 Received: from Work-Laptop-2.dhcp.nanog.merit.net (gatt.md.ogud.com [10.20.30.6]) by stora.ogud.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o1MN6CAB066503; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 18:06:13 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from Ed.Lewis@neustar.biz) Received: from [192.35.165.216] by Work-Laptop-2.dhcp.nanog.merit.net (PGP Universal service); Mon, 22 Feb 2010 17:06:18 -0500 X-PGP-Universal: processed; by Work-Laptop-2.dhcp.nanog.merit.net on Mon, 22 Feb 2010 17:06:18 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <201002181805.TAA21024@TR-Sys.de> <71F913A0-0859-4E69-BAAE-E9DC482471AF@icsi.berkeley.edu> <4B82F285.6000602@ogud.com> Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 17:06:11 -0600 To: namedroppers From: Edward Lewis Subject: Re: TCP details Re: [dnsext] Draft: WGLC draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-tcp-requirements Cc: ed.lewis@neustar.biz Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.67 on 10.20.30.4 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: At 13:25 -0800 2/22/10, Matthew Dempsky wrote: >On Mon, Feb 22, 2010 at 1:09 PM, Olafur Gudmundsson wrote: >> Do the members of the working group think this document, >> that specifies that TCP transport must be supported by all DNS >> implementation is beneficial? > >"all DNS implementations", no; "all *general purpose* DNS >implementations", yes. Yes, "general purpose". "General purpose DNS implementations" - means "DNS implementations released with NO INTENTION of being scoped for only a particular use case or set of use cases." The "intention" clause is used to cover the fact that "no one really knows the future." (Although I still don't know how the IETF can require anyone do anything without declaring a protocol police force.) -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Edward Lewis NeuStar You can leave a voice message at +1-571-434-5468 As with IPv6, the problem with the deployment of frictionless surfaces is that they're not getting traction. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Mon Feb 22 15:56:25 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 175E428C446; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 15:56:25 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.618 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.618 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.019, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id u63hSy9D6Ei1; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 15:56:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41FBC28C468; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 15:56:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nji63-0004rO-Ll for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 23:53:51 +0000 Received: from [2001:4f8:3:bb:230:48ff:fe5a:2f38] (helo=nsa.vix.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:CAMELLIA256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nji5y-0004qx-QS for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 23:53:46 +0000 Received: from nsa.vix.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nsa.vix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6738CAA879 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 23:53:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vixie@nsa.vix.com) From: Paul Vixie To: namedroppers Subject: Re: TCP details Re: [dnsext] Draft: WGLC draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-tcp-requirements In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon\, 22 Feb 2010 13\:25\:22 PST." References: <201002181805.TAA21024@TR-Sys.de> <71F913A0-0859-4E69-BAAE-E9DC482471AF@icsi.berkeley.edu> <4B82F285.6000602@ogud.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.1; nil; GNU Emacs 22.2.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 23:53:46 +0000 Message-ID: <46084.1266882826@nsa.vix.com> Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: > On Mon, Feb 22, 2010 at 1:09 PM, Olafur Gudmundsson wrote: > > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Do the members of the working group think this document, > > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0that specifies that TCP transport must be supported by a= ll DNS > > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0implementation is beneficial? +1. > Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 13:25:22 -0800 > From: Matthew Dempsky >=20 > "all DNS implementations", no; "all *general purpose* DNS > implementations", yes. i think this horse is dead. rbldnsd and other non-general-purpose subset implementations already leave out so many required elements of the protocol, that adding one more required element that these don't implement, is no big deal. can we please move on. 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Purchase and let diseases go away! http://anthropomorphic142.spaces.live.com From dnsop-bounces@ietf.org Mon Feb 22 20:35:09 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F1C228C478 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 20:35:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: The results of your email commands From: dnsop-bounces@ietf.org To: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1275143192==" Message-ID: Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 20:35:08 -0800 Precedence: bulk X-BeenThere: dnsop@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 List-Id: IETF DNSOP WG mailing list X-List-Administrivia: yes Sender: dnsop-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: dnsop-bounces@ietf.org --===============1275143192== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The results of your email command are provided below. 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Purchase and let diseases go away! http://anthropomorphic142.spaces.live.com --===============1275143192==-- From forgathernq7907@themenwelt.com Mon Feb 22 20:35:07 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1B7428C22B; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 20:35:07 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -81.669 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-81.669 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2=4.395, HELO_EQ_BR=0.955, HOST_EQ_BR=1.295, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.931, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id piT79MmfR7WW; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 20:35:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from 189-93-143-171.3g.claro.net.br (189-93-143-171.3g.claro.net.br [189.93.143.171]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E578128C223; Mon, 22 Feb 2010 20:35:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from 189.93.143.171 by mx.inode.at; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 01:34:41 -0300 Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 01:34:41 -0300 From: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: Make your dong enthusiastic To: Message-ID: <000d01cab441$83f5d300$6400a8c0@forgathernq7907> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal Haven't got time to go and buy cures? 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Purchase and let diseases go away! http://anthropomorphic142.spaces.live.com From dorcasag49@ajzenberg.com Tue Feb 23 03:20:39 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B729B3A83B1; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 03:20:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -64.766 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-64.766 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, CHARSET_FARAWAY_HEADER=3.2, FH_FAKE_RCVD_LINE_B=5.777, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FM_SEX_HOSTDDDD=10.357, FUZZY_VPILL=0.687, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR=2.426, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, MORE_SEX=1.183, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_SUB_ENC_KOI8R=0.67, SARE_SUB_IMPROVE=0.641, SARE_SXLIFE=1.07, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2wBFUMoK1swa; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 03:20:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from triband-mum-120.61.6.167.mtnl.net.in (triband-mum-120.61.6.167.mtnl.net.in [120.61.6.167]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E58F28C169; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 03:20:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from 120.61.6.167 by mail.ajzenberg.com; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 16:52:37 +0530 Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 16:52:37 +0530 From: dnsext-archive@ietf.org Subject: =?koi8-r?B?SW5jcmVhc2VzIHNleHVhbCBkZXNpcmUgYW5kIGltcHJvdmVzIHBlcmZv?= =?koi8-r?B?cm1hbmNlICYgZW5kdXJhbmNlISBHaXZlIHRoYXQgZmFpbGluZyBtYXJy?= =?koi8-r?B?aWFnZSBhIG5ldyBhbmQgaGVhbHRoeSBzZXggbGlmZYU=?= To: Message-ID: <000d01cab47a$80bf2220$6400a8c0@dorcasag49> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal ViaGrow is the only 100% herbal formula that works even with alcohol http://opprobrium026.spaces.live.com From diffserv-interest-bounces@ietf.org Tue Feb 23 03:20:41 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dnsext-archive@ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B89E728C169 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 03:20:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: The results of your email commands From: diffserv-interest-bounces@ietf.org To: dnsext-archive@ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1429557129==" Message-ID: Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 03:20:41 -0800 Precedence: bulk X-BeenThere: diffserv-interest@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 List-Id: Differentiated services general discussion X-List-Administrivia: yes Sender: diffserv-interest-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: diffserv-interest-bounces@ietf.org --===============1429557129== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The results of your email command are provided below. Attached is your original message. No commands were found in this message. To obtain instructions, send a message containing just the word "help". - Done. --===============1429557129== Content-Type: message/rfc822 MIME-Version: 1.0 Return-Path: X-Original-To: diffserv-interest-request@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: diffserv-interest-request@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B729B3A83B1; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 03:20:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -64.766 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-64.766 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, CHARSET_FARAWAY_HEADER=3.2, FH_FAKE_RCVD_LINE_B=5.777, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FM_SEX_HOSTDDDD=10.357, FUZZY_VPILL=0.687, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR=2.426, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, MORE_SEX=1.183, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_SUB_ENC_KOI8R=0.67, SARE_SUB_IMPROVE=0.641, SARE_SXLIFE=1.07, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2wBFUMoK1swa; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 03:20:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from triband-mum-120.61.6.167.mtnl.net.in (triband-mum-120.61.6.167.mtnl.net.in [120.61.6.167]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E58F28C169; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 03:20:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from 120.61.6.167 by mail.ajzenberg.com; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 16:52:37 +0530 Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 16:52:37 +0530 From: dnsext-archive@ietf.org Subject: =?koi8-r?B?SW5jcmVhc2VzIHNleHVhbCBkZXNpcmUgYW5kIGltcHJvdmVzIHBlcmZv?= =?koi8-r?B?cm1hbmNlICYgZW5kdXJhbmNlISBHaXZlIHRoYXQgZmFpbGluZyBtYXJy?= =?koi8-r?B?aWFnZSBhIG5ldyBhbmQgaGVhbHRoeSBzZXggbGlmZYU=?= To: Message-ID: <000d01cab47a$80bf2220$6400a8c0@dorcasag49> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal ViaGrow is the only 100% herbal formula that works even with alcohol http://opprobrium026.spaces.live.com --===============1429557129==-- From dnsop-bounces@ietf.org Tue Feb 23 03:20:41 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dnsext-archive@ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE8D628C275 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 03:20:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: The results of your email commands From: dnsop-bounces@ietf.org To: dnsext-archive@ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1656497500==" Message-ID: Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 03:20:41 -0800 Precedence: bulk X-BeenThere: dnsop@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 List-Id: IETF DNSOP WG mailing list X-List-Administrivia: yes Sender: dnsop-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: dnsop-bounces@ietf.org --===============1656497500== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The results of your email command are provided below. Attached is your original message. No commands were found in this message. To obtain instructions, send a message containing just the word "help". - Done. --===============1656497500== Content-Type: message/rfc822 MIME-Version: 1.0 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dnsop-request@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: dnsop-request@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B729B3A83B1; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 03:20:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -64.766 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-64.766 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, CHARSET_FARAWAY_HEADER=3.2, FH_FAKE_RCVD_LINE_B=5.777, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FM_SEX_HOSTDDDD=10.357, FUZZY_VPILL=0.687, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR=2.426, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, MORE_SEX=1.183, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_SUB_ENC_KOI8R=0.67, SARE_SUB_IMPROVE=0.641, SARE_SXLIFE=1.07, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2wBFUMoK1swa; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 03:20:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from triband-mum-120.61.6.167.mtnl.net.in (triband-mum-120.61.6.167.mtnl.net.in [120.61.6.167]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E58F28C169; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 03:20:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from 120.61.6.167 by mail.ajzenberg.com; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 16:52:37 +0530 Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 16:52:37 +0530 From: dnsext-archive@ietf.org Subject: =?koi8-r?B?SW5jcmVhc2VzIHNleHVhbCBkZXNpcmUgYW5kIGltcHJvdmVzIHBlcmZv?= =?koi8-r?B?cm1hbmNlICYgZW5kdXJhbmNlISBHaXZlIHRoYXQgZmFpbGluZyBtYXJy?= =?koi8-r?B?aWFnZSBhIG5ldyBhbmQgaGVhbHRoeSBzZXggbGlmZYU=?= To: Message-ID: <000d01cab47a$80bf2220$6400a8c0@dorcasag49> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal ViaGrow is the only 100% herbal formula that works even with alcohol http://opprobrium026.spaces.live.com --===============1656497500==-- From dorcasag49@ajzenberg.com Tue Feb 23 03:20:39 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B729B3A83B1; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 03:20:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -64.766 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-64.766 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, CHARSET_FARAWAY_HEADER=3.2, FH_FAKE_RCVD_LINE_B=5.777, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FM_SEX_HOSTDDDD=10.357, FUZZY_VPILL=0.687, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR=2.426, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, MORE_SEX=1.183, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_SUB_ENC_KOI8R=0.67, SARE_SUB_IMPROVE=0.641, SARE_SXLIFE=1.07, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2wBFUMoK1swa; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 03:20:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from triband-mum-120.61.6.167.mtnl.net.in (triband-mum-120.61.6.167.mtnl.net.in [120.61.6.167]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E58F28C169; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 03:20:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from 120.61.6.167 by mail.ajzenberg.com; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 16:52:37 +0530 Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 16:52:37 +0530 From: dnsext-archive@ietf.org Subject: =?koi8-r?B?SW5jcmVhc2VzIHNleHVhbCBkZXNpcmUgYW5kIGltcHJvdmVzIHBlcmZv?= =?koi8-r?B?cm1hbmNlICYgZW5kdXJhbmNlISBHaXZlIHRoYXQgZmFpbGluZyBtYXJy?= =?koi8-r?B?aWFnZSBhIG5ldyBhbmQgaGVhbHRoeSBzZXggbGlmZYU=?= To: Message-ID: <000d01cab47a$80bf2220$6400a8c0@dorcasag49> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal ViaGrow is the only 100% herbal formula that works even with alcohol http://opprobrium026.spaces.live.com From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Feb 23 03:29:39 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9FCC3A82DF; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 03:29:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 2.853 X-Spam-Level: ** X-Spam-Status: No, score=2.853 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.397, BAYES_00=-2.599, CHARSET_FARAWAY_HEADER=3.2, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, HELO_MISMATCH_DE=1.448, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JaYeIej9uOz0; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 03:29:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D40ED3A7C40; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 03:29:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Njssw-0000SV-VE for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 11:25:02 +0000 Received: from [213.178.172.147] (helo=TR-Sys.de) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Njsst-0000RR-E2 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 11:25:00 +0000 Received: from ZEUS.TR-Sys.de by w. with ESMTP ($Revision: 1.37.109.26 $/16.3.2) id AA169494272; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 12:24:32 +0100 Received: (from ah@localhost) by z.TR-Sys.de (8.9.3 (PHNE_25183)/8.7.3) id MAA29080; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 12:24:31 +0100 (MEZ) From: Alfred =?hp-roman8?B?SM5uZXM=?= Message-Id: <201002231124.MAA29080@TR-Sys.de> Subject: Re: TCP details Re: [dnsext] Draft: WGLC draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-tcp-requirements To: vixie@isc.org, namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 12:24:30 +0100 (MEZ) X-Mailer: ELM [$Revision: 1.17.214.3 $] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=hp-roman8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On Mon, 22 Feb 2010 23:53:46 +0000, Paul Vixie wrote: >> On Mon, Feb 22, 2010 at 1:09 PM, Olafur Gudmundsson wrote: >>> Do the members of the working group think this document, >>> that specifies that TCP transport must be supported by all DNS >>> implementation is beneficial? > > +1. +1 >> Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 13:25:22 -0800 >> From: Matthew Dempsky >> >> "all DNS implementations", no; "all *general purpose* DNS >> implementations", yes. > > i think this horse is dead. rbldnsd and other non-general-purpose subset > implementations already leave out so many required elements of the protocol, > that adding one more required element that these don't implement, is no big > deal. can we please move on. +1. The only sensical text addition I can imagine to address concerns, might be (because this document aims at being a clarification of STD13 and STD3) : "all DNS implementations that claim conformance to STD 13 [RFC1035]" Is that a compromise wording approachable to general consensus? Best regards, Alfred. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Feb 23 05:57:07 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59D8028C113; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 05:57:07 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.600, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_15=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_23=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_42=0.6, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, NO_RELAYS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vRz4aTmaXJC3; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 05:57:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3FAE28C0E4; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 05:57:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NjvDP-000K3O-L5 for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 13:54:19 +0000 Received: from [2001:1488:800:400::400] (helo=mail.nic.cz) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NjvDM-000K2R-In for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 13:54:16 +0000 Received: from [IPv6:2001:1488:ac14:1400:224:e8ff:fea9:f617] (unknown [IPv6:2001:1488:ac14:1400:224:e8ff:fea9:f617]) by mail.nic.cz (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 333DB76C032; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 14:54:14 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <4B83DE05.4090501@nic.cz> Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 14:54:13 +0100 From: =?UTF-8?B?T25kxZllaiBTdXLDvQ==?= User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.9.1.7) Gecko/20100111 Lightning/1.0b1 Thunderbird/3.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Edward Lewis CC: Mark Andrews , Niall O'Reilly , vixie@isc.org, "namedroppers@ops.ietf.org" , Vaggelis Segredakis , 'Sotiris Panaretou' Subject: Re: [dnsext] Bundling of Domain Names and DNAME References: <4B1E3ECD.4050706@ucd.ie> <200912081508.nB8F8KZG011950@drugs.dv.isc.org> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: Hi, jumping on the discussion train very lately, so I have used Ed's email since it sums things very nicely. I would like to slightly shift the paradigm which is used here. Whole debate circles around IDN(A), but the DNAME can in the registry can be used without IDN at all. Current semantics of DNAME makes whole DNAME idea quite unusable for almost anything, but very special cases, since without redirection at the owner you need to keep in sync records in the zone apex, which makes it very complicated and hard to understand for end users. On 8.12.2009 18:03, Edward Lewis wrote: > I've seen earlier posts and am still working my way through them, but > this one has comments that I can't understand. > > At 2:08 +1100 12/9/09, Mark Andrews wrote: > >> Extending DNAME this way breaks the ability of a zone owner to >> redirect themselves. It forces the redirection to be done in the >> parent zone. > > In trying to understand what is meant by that comment, let's look at the > three ways DNAME could appear relative to a zone cut. > > 1.) Above the zone cut: [...] > 2.) Inside a zone, i.e., not at the apex: > > $ORIGIN tld. > > xn--12345.tld. DNAME xn-54321.net. > ;; > xn--54321.tld. NS ns1.nameserver.example.net. > xn--54321.tld. NS ns2.nameserver.example.net. > > In this case, any record types other than SOA, CNAME and NS can be > present at the DNAME owner. > > xn--12345.tld. DNAME xn-54321.net. > xn--12345.tld. TXT "text string from parent" > xn--12345.tld. MX 10 mailserver.example.net. > xn--12345.tld. MX 25 backupserver.example.net. > > In the existing rules, queries for xn--12345.tld./(DNAME, TXT, MX and > ANY) will be sourced from the above, and NoError/NoData for all other > types. The proposed new rule would later the latter to say "source the > answer from whatever is at the DNAME target." > > So there is redirection at the parent here, at least as far as I > understand redirection. +1 Would it really be a problem if we define that DNAME, which is not in the zone apex, would behave as C+DNAME? Then the registry could allow to put DNAME records in TLD zone like: sury.cz. IN DNAME rfc1925.org. and query to "IN MX sury.cz" then could return sury.cz. IN DNAME rfc1925.org. sury.cz. IN CNAME rfc1925.org. rfc1925.org. IN MX 10 mail.rfc1925.org. but query "IN A pagan.sury.cz" would also work: sury.cz. IN DNAME rfc1925.org. pagan.sury.cz. IN CNAME pagan.rfc1925.org. pagan.rfc1925.org IN A 89.187.130.14 This could also prevent horrible things like you could sometimes see in the real world: $ dig IN A idos.cz @ns.dmz.cd.cz ;; ANSWER SECTION: idos.cz. IN CNAME idos.timetable.cz. idos.timetable.cz. IN CNAME cluster.timetable.cz. cluster.timetable.cz. IN A 77.93.209.54 cluster.timetable.cz. IN A 77.93.209.53 With current semantics you are unable to create redirections for both domain.tld and www.domain.tld, which leads to such a hacks in the DNS. > 3.) At the apex of a zone: If the DNAME is in the zone apex the authoritative server will not redirect (create dummy CNAME) OWNER to DNAME target. I think this could be clearly defined. >> If we need different semantics, create a new type and use it. > > The proposal is based on what has happened to the CNAME definition. We > didn't create a new type for that. This new proposal would render DNAME obsolete, so it looks to me it's much better to extend the semantics of DNAME in DNAMEbis proposal. So the real question is: what problem does the extended semantics as proposed by Ed create? Ondrej -- Ondřej Surý vedoucí výzkumu/R&D manager ------------------------------------------- CZ.NIC, z.s.p.o. -- Laboratoře CZ.NIC Americka 23, 120 00 Praha 2, Czech Republic mailto:ondrej.sury@nic.cz http://nic.cz/ tel:+420.222745110 fax:+420.222745112 ------------------------------------------- From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Feb 23 08:27:47 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 975413A84A1; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 08:27:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.428 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.428 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.067, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EWpqYEIPduYR; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 08:27:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDEEB3A849F; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 08:27:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NjxXU-000EC9-Tj for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 16:23:12 +0000 Received: from [209.85.217.220] (helo=mail-gx0-f220.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NjxXR-000EAb-Qs for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 16:23:09 +0000 Received: by gxk20 with SMTP id 20so1140921gxk.18 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 08:23:09 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from :user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=UJgj6iV6nOEgG/S46+KbfRQUB1Yjy0ZuW8bYV3vAvEQ=; b=I53wHTOrYlDOQbXhGWGIEmKyG9l9tn/XF1t6yuhzOHpJeqTnmo3sAbrSQqjWFhxbDV 5/S6d/lxQxbdrLP+bFaG4ZNNZ5jZb1bQ1linFIaJ5+SISP2ykl1UNB1EI+NbDjfAcn0T i2ISHe7LE3+rQhDZF+2WPl3Ki/nph6HVTS7M8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject :references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=VOdr5hiblcZnG/OTpItJs90PK1riPvlRg6QDB8OSobD3bYQ8t1ATtZ6oEYS+JDuWgu Ep+LdwePRroxXVfB4NSPce1w798pxsQKAwTn8Xss5pDC4qyRNCJuWfw1RGveiB/GfTAw ol7oqJSvqubRhJx75VV2c7S9TvPWJijDAX0VY= Received: by 10.101.202.12 with SMTP id e12mr10438852anq.132.1266942188673; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 08:23:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from Wastrel.local (c-68-40-195-221.hsd1.mi.comcast.net [68.40.195.221]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 23sm1524401ywh.45.2010.02.23.08.23.05 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Tue, 23 Feb 2010 08:23:06 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4B8400E7.2060304@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 11:23:03 -0500 From: William Allen Simpson User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Macintosh/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alex Bligh CC: Brian Dickson , bmanning@vacation.karoshi.com, Mark Andrews , Paul Vixie , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] timeouts: WGLC draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-tcp-requirements References: <201002181317.OAA20214@TR-Sys.de> <20100220102024.GC16126@vacation.karoshi.com.> <98039.1266683462@nsa.vix.com> <201002202235.o1KMZrwm032192@drugs.dv.isc.org> <20100221125823.GA30335@vacation.karoshi.com.> <3e1abd2c1002210714g74c0946aob41144e8f453379b@mail.gmail.com> <4B816FBB.30000@gmail.com> <4B82F1BC.7020000@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: Alex Bligh wrote: > --On 22 February 2010 16:06:04 -0500 William Allen Simpson > wrote: > >> I'm suggesting that as TCP was designed and implemented, the moon was a >> consideration. You are old enough to remember moon landings? You do >> know that TCP/IP was originally specified at that time? > > Sure, but things move on. Hence, for instance, DTN. > Where is the proposed standard that specifies making DNS over TCP delay tolerant by _shortening_ the timeouts? From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Feb 23 08:28:40 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E061728C0EB; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 08:28:40 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.435 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.435 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.060, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4tY8fYf9Uyh9; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 08:28:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 196023A77DE; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 08:28:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NjxbV-000ElE-Hn for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 16:27:21 +0000 Received: from [209.85.210.173] (helo=mail-yx0-f173.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NjxbS-000Ejx-8W for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 16:27:18 +0000 Received: by yxe3 with SMTP id 3so405134yxe.5 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 08:27:17 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from :user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=L2QYwrtQRrbofQ7Kd/M1EwjxySmzKEq2UFF1kVGHNp4=; b=Fq7SazmbAY4rMgDnman2svnyCpq9xQQ4SRh5K52CWy4kqzL9hB8BzplJX9XyJtmCm+ MBMY96dZP7BZ0C3v1FoEmk0kQYUj6cH2jIiGBxlpv8xxK/9ANwQCxj0XuHcp/2DF7JwD Wj4D/xVNB286IXlzyNagNLVMpjoXtYZvEuJpE= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject :references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=YBZAUpBYQHsnpHNzlUy2A0rPQWnaYPJBRVpT5wPMU/oljijHx7WEtEAfzpkAX1M2bp qoViv5W11XWs4WMUMXlkin6lRJJmmE/cTnfrY6INrZa27Ur0f1U3Fhb+uMAXSSw/HStF PcL5xw0GLobmppY5m9N38UGkdz1/Lxb5kVEjk= Received: by 10.101.136.23 with SMTP id o23mr4066805ann.159.1266942434692; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 08:27:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from Wastrel.local (c-68-40-195-221.hsd1.mi.comcast.net [68.40.195.221]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 21sm1535369ywh.17.2010.02.23.08.27.12 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Tue, 23 Feb 2010 08:27:13 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4B8401DF.5010000@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 11:27:11 -0500 From: William Allen Simpson User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Macintosh/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Fernando Gont CC: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] Inherent stickyness: WGLC draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-tcp-requirements References: <4B82F4BD.1040102@gmail.com> <4B830875.5020007@gont.com.ar> In-Reply-To: <4B830875.5020007@gont.com.ar> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: Fernando Gont wrote: >> DNS over TCP is sticky. If we found the server with UDP, we *have* to >> assume that it accepts TCP. If it doesn't respond, we wait at least 3 >> minutes (according to RFC 1123) before giving up and trying another. >> That's much too long for practical purposes. > > Agreed. But that should be discused in a separate document. This > document is just meant to clarify support for TCP. > As this is the document that clarifies support, it MUST indicate how UDP falls over to TCP, and how TCP survives. > Meta-comment: at the point you're facing resource exhaustion, I'd argue > that's it's probably not the best choice to "keep existing connections". > I'd fail on the side of servicing more clients (over different > connections that are then closed), rather keeping the same conenctions open. > Connections take energy and time to establish and close. Always err on the side of keeping existing connections stable over servicing new connections. That is, be conservative in what you do.... From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Feb 23 08:50:24 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2CFF28C28B; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 08:50:24 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.477 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.477 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.429, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cDBlXEflmd5h; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 08:50:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 004B628C49B; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 08:50:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NjxwC-000HgF-DX for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 16:48:44 +0000 Received: from [192.150.186.11] (helo=fruitcake.ICSI.Berkeley.EDU) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Njxw8-000Hf6-Vy for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 16:48:41 +0000 Received: from [IPv6:::1] (jack.ICSI.Berkeley.EDU [192.150.186.73]) by fruitcake.ICSI.Berkeley.EDU (8.12.11.20060614/8.12.11) with ESMTP id o1NGmWBI027311; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 08:48:32 -0800 (PST) References: <4B82F4BD.1040102@gmail.com> <4B830875.5020007@gont.com.ar> <4B8401DF.5010000@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <4B8401DF.5010000@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: Nicholas Weaver , Fernando Gont , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org From: Nicholas Weaver Subject: Re: [dnsext] Inherent stickyness: WGLC draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-tcp-requirements Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 08:48:32 -0800 To: William Allen Simpson X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On Feb 23, 2010, at 8:27 AM, William Allen Simpson wrote: >> Meta-comment: at the point you're facing resource exhaustion, I'd = argue >> that's it's probably not the best choice to "keep existing = connections". >> I'd fail on the side of servicing more clients (over different >> connections that are then closed), rather keeping the same = conenctions open. > Connections take energy and time to establish and close. Always err = on the > side of keeping existing connections stable over servicing new = connections. > That is, be conservative in what you do.... And connections take state to maintain... The most likely problem with TCP on any server is state of "idle" = connections, as the state for a new connection is no more than an idle = connection once established, and (with SYN-cookies) is zero until it is = established. The real "resource" consumed in a new connection over an established = connection is one extra RTT of latency and, if doing a big transfer, the = RTTs involved in the slowstart ramp-up. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Feb 23 09:16:11 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 419CD28C149; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 09:16:11 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.045 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.045 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.608, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_NET=0.611, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1td3yvn9Jus9; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 09:16:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 360F13A8309; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 09:16:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NjyJI-000Kta-QP for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 17:12:36 +0000 Received: from [201.216.232.80] (helo=smtp1.xmundo.net) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NjyJE-000Ksw-Uo for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 17:12:33 +0000 Received: from venus.xmundo.net (venus.xmundo.net [201.216.232.56]) by smtp1.xmundo.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 090B06B6A4F; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 14:12:34 -0300 (ART) Received: from [192.168.0.100] (144-174-17-190.fibertel.com.ar [190.17.174.144]) (authenticated bits=0) by venus.xmundo.net (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id o1NHCSUo012988; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 14:12:29 -0300 Message-ID: <4B840C73.40804@gont.com.ar> Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 14:12:19 -0300 From: Fernando Gont User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Windows/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: William Allen Simpson CC: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] Inherent stickyness: WGLC draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-tcp-requirements References: <4B82F4BD.1040102@gmail.com> <4B830875.5020007@gont.com.ar> <4B8401DF.5010000@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <4B8401DF.5010000@gmail.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.96.0 OpenPGP: id=D076FFF1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH authentication, not delayed by milter-greylist-3.0 (venus.xmundo.net [201.216.232.56]); Tue, 23 Feb 2010 14:12:33 -0300 (ART) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: William Allen Simpson wrote: >> Agreed. But that should be discused in a separate document. This >> document is just meant to clarify support for TCP. > > As this is the document that clarifies support, it MUST indicate how > UDP falls over to TCP, and how TCP survives. I don't think this need to be done in the same document. Yes, it should be done. But not necessarily in the same document. >> Meta-comment: at the point you're facing resource exhaustion, I'd argue >> that's it's probably not the best choice to "keep existing connections". >> I'd fail on the side of servicing more clients (over different >> connections that are then closed), rather keeping the same conenctions >> open. >> > Connections take energy and time to establish and close. Always err on the > side of keeping existing connections stable over servicing new connections. > That is, be conservative in what you do.... That sort of assumes that the established ones are legitimate -- which needn't be the case. With such a policy, a Naphta attack (see the CPNI doc) could kill your nameserver. Thanks, -- Fernando Gont e-mail: fernando@gont.com.ar || fgont@acm.org PGP Fingerprint: 7809 84F5 322E 45C7 F1C9 3945 96EE A9EF D076 FFF1 From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Feb 23 09:51:12 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9DA728C178; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 09:51:12 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.495 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.495 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IywpwoiWgqjT; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 09:51:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E890728C179; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 09:51:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Njypd-000OgK-SW for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 17:46:01 +0000 Received: from [89.16.176.221] (helo=mail.avalus.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Njypb-000Ofk-F9 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 17:45:59 +0000 Received: from [192.168.100.136] (unknown [212.183.140.33]) by mail.avalus.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 22858C56506; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 17:45:54 +0000 (GMT) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 17:45:50 +0000 From: Alex Bligh Reply-To: Alex Bligh To: William Allen Simpson cc: Brian Dickson , bmanning@vacation.karoshi.com, Mark Andrews , Paul Vixie , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org, Alex Bligh Subject: Re: [dnsext] timeouts: WGLC draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-tcp-requirements Message-ID: <27E68DEF2C26ED482608D78A@host114.msm.che.vodafone> In-Reply-To: <4B8400E7.2060304@gmail.com> References: <201002181317.OAA20214@TR-Sys.de> <20100220102024.GC16126@vacation.karoshi.com.> <98039.1266683462@nsa.vix.com> <201002202235.o1KMZrwm032192@drugs.dv.isc.org> <20100221125823.GA30335@vacation.karoshi.com.> <3e1abd2c1002210714g74c0946aob41144e8f453379b@mail.gmail.com> <4B816FBB.30000@gmail.com> <4B82F1BC.7020000@gmail.com> <4B8400E7.2060304@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Mac OS X) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: --On 23 February 2010 11:23:03 -0500 William Allen Simpson wrote: > Alex Bligh wrote: >> --On 22 February 2010 16:06:04 -0500 William Allen Simpson >> wrote: >> >>> I'm suggesting that as TCP was designed and implemented, the moon was a >>> consideration. You are old enough to remember moon landings? You do >>> know that TCP/IP was originally specified at that time? >> >> Sure, but things move on. Hence, for instance, DTN. >> > Where is the proposed standard that specifies making DNS over TCP > delay tolerant by _shortening_ the timeouts? I meant the right way to do DNS to Mars or whatever (we can argue about the moon) is not DNS over TCP, but DNS over (e.g.) some other transport (DTN). -- Alex Bligh From elicitingi48@dyrkjaer.com Tue Feb 23 10:12:43 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 259563A7B51; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 10:12:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -21.37 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-21.37 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, CHARSET_FARAWAY_HEADER=3.2, FB_INCREASE_VOL=3.629, FH_FAKE_RCVD_LINE_B=5.777, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, FM_SEX_HELODDDD=10.357, FM_SEX_HOSTDDDD=10.357, FS_EJACULA=10.357, HELO_DYNAMIC_HCC=4.295, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2=4.395, HELO_EQ_BR=0.955, HELO_EQ_DSL=1.129, HOST_EQ_BR=1.295, IMPOTENCE=1.886, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_ADLTSUB1=1.66, SARE_SUB_ENC_KOI8R=0.67, SARE_SXLIFE=1.07, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.931, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Y29VjN-ROoYY; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 10:12:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from 189-31-156-249.bsace702.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br (189-31-156-249.bsace702.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br [189.31.156.249]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 155A33A7102; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 10:12:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from 189.31.156.249 by mail.dyrkjaer.com; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 15:14:25 -0300 Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 15:14:25 -0300 From: disman-bounces@ietf.org Subject: =?koi8-r?B?U3RvcCBwcmVtYXR1cmUgZWphY3VsYXRpb24gJiBpbmNyZWFzZSBzcGVy?= =?koi8-r?B?bSB2b2x1bWUgliBJbXByZXNzIHlvdXIgcGFydG5lciBieSBzaG9vdGlu?= =?koi8-r?B?ZyB0aGF0IHNwZXJtIHdpdGggbW9yZSBwb3dlciBhbmQgcHJlY2lzaW9u?= =?koi8-r?B?IHRoYXQgZXZlciBiZWZvcmUu?= To: Message-ID: <000d01cab4b4$080070c0$6400a8c0@elicitingi48> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-2"; reply-type=original Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal X-Antivirus: avast! 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Make this click right now and you will get around 400 products available for express packaging to your area, plus discounts on 40 of them, which are by the way the most famous ones! http://xnp584.zexaveduh.cn From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Feb 23 14:49:52 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32C2728C1FB; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 14:49:52 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.984 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.984 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, SARE_MILLIONSOF=0.315] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JD5BYMVT-wgG; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 14:49:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A45B3A7CB9; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 14:49:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nk3Wa-0005z7-VO for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 22:46:40 +0000 Received: from [2001:4f8:3:bb::5] (helo=farside.isc.org) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nk3WY-0005yr-Oq for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 22:46:38 +0000 Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (drugs.dv.isc.org [IPv6:2001:470:1f00:820:214:22ff:fed9:fbdc]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "drugs.dv.isc.org", Issuer "ISC CA" (not verified)) by farside.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC513E60B5; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 22:46:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marka@isc.org) Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by drugs.dv.isc.org (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o1NMkOpS086305; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 09:46:30 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from marka@drugs.dv.isc.org) Message-Id: <201002232246.o1NMkOpS086305@drugs.dv.isc.org> To: =?UTF-8?B?T25kxZllaiBTdXLDvQ==?= Cc: Edward Lewis , "Niall O'Reilly" , vixie@isc.org, "namedroppers@ops.ietf.org" , Vaggelis Segredakis , "'Sotiris Panaretou'" From: Mark Andrews References: <4B1E3ECD.4050706@ucd.ie> <200912081508.nB8F8KZG011950@drugs.dv.isc.org> <4B83DE05.4090501@nic.cz> Subject: Re: [dnsext] Bundling of Domain Names and DNAME In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 23 Feb 2010 14:54:13 BST." <4B83DE05.4090501@nic.cz> Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 09:46:23 +1100 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: It is much better to keep the semantincs of DNAME exactly as they are. There are millions of nameservers out there that handle DNAME correctly today. DNAME is in use today. You would break all the zones using DNAME if you change its sematics. If you want different semantics create a new record which signals the different semantics. That is what the BNAME proposal does. It creates a new type which redirects itself and the names under it. See https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-yao-dnsext-bname/ The proposal still needs a lot of work but is going in the right direction. * DNSSEC integration. * Signaling BNAME understanding. I also think we should do BNAME regardless of whether it meets idn's needs. BNAME would work in the RFC2311 solution space whereas DNAME doesn't. Back when were were deciding DNAME's semantics there was a discussion about whether it should affect the owner or not. We really should have just created two types then rather than trying to pick one. Mark -- Mark Andrews, ISC 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: marka@isc.org From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Feb 23 15:15:13 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76FB828C111; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 15:15:12 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.248 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.248 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.811, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id o-XEOgc7WrDL; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 15:15:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FF8728C126; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 15:15:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nk3wo-0008zO-Sq for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 23:13:46 +0000 Received: from [204.152.189.190] (helo=virtualized.org) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nk3wm-0008z8-JH for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 23:13:44 +0000 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by virtualized.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6879AC89CA; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 15:13:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at virtualized.org Received: from virtualized.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (trantor.virtualized.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nJ35SiB9EboR; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 15:13:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.96.18.220] (wlan39-031.mdr.icann.org [192.0.39.31]) by virtualized.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB1F9AC89BC; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 15:13:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: [dnsext] Bundling of Domain Names and DNAME Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: David Conrad In-Reply-To: <201002232246.o1NMkOpS086305@drugs.dv.isc.org> Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 15:13:08 -0800 Cc: "namedroppers@ops.ietf.org WG" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <4B1E3ECD.4050706@ucd.ie> <200912081508.nB8F8KZG011950@drugs.dv.isc.org> <4B83DE05.4090501@nic.cz> <201002232246.o1NMkOpS086305@drugs.dv.isc.org> To: Mark Andrews X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On Feb 23, 2010, at 2:46 PM, Mark Andrews wrote: > DNAME is in use today. You would break all the zones using DNAME if = you change its sematics. People are actually using DNAME? Regards, -drc From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Feb 23 15:35:44 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A574C28C3B9; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 15:35:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.167 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.167 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.468, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_15=0.6, MANGLED_SAVELE=2.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GPWOlIB8r5Nx; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 15:35:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D22F828C111; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 15:35:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nk4Fl-000AgS-HR for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 23:33:21 +0000 Received: from [2001:4f8:3:bb:230:48ff:fe5a:2f38] (helo=nsa.vix.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:CAMELLIA256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nk4Fi-000Afw-Rf for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 23:33:18 +0000 Received: from nsa.vix.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nsa.vix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 899CEAAA63; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 23:33:18 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vixie@nsa.vix.com) From: Paul Vixie To: "namedroppers\@ops.ietf.org" , 'Sotiris Panaretou' Subject: Re: [dnsext] Bundling of Domain Names and DNAME In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue\, 23 Feb 2010 14\:54\:13 +0100." <4B83DE05.4090501@nic.cz> References: <4B1E3ECD.4050706@ucd.ie> <200912081508.nB8F8KZG011950@drugs.dv.isc.org> <4B83DE05.4090501@nic.cz> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.1; nil; GNU Emacs 22.2.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 23:33:18 +0000 Message-ID: <3265.1266967998@nsa.vix.com> Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: > Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 14:54:13 +0100 > From: Ond=C5=99ej Sur=C3=BD >=20 > Would it really be a problem if we define that DNAME, which is not in the > zone apex, would behave as C+DNAME? in that someone somewhere could be depending on current behaviour, and it's just as easy to add BNAME as to change DNAME, yes, that would be a problem. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Feb 23 15:52:13 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1735E28C3AD; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 15:52:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.292 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.292 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.308, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CpwwuPLmmXKN; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 15:52:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3838D3A8419; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 15:52:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nk4Vx-000CBP-0Q for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 23:50:05 +0000 Received: from [2001:4f8:3:bb::5] (helo=farside.isc.org) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nk4Vu-000CAk-88 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 23:50:02 +0000 Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (drugs.dv.isc.org [IPv6:2001:470:1f00:820:214:22ff:fed9:fbdc]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "drugs.dv.isc.org", Issuer "ISC CA" (not verified)) by farside.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76851E60B3; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 23:50:01 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marka@isc.org) Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by drugs.dv.isc.org (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o1NNnwjA087829; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 10:49:58 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from marka@drugs.dv.isc.org) Message-Id: <201002232349.o1NNnwjA087829@drugs.dv.isc.org> To: David Conrad Cc: "namedroppers@ops.ietf.org WG" From: Mark Andrews References: <4B1E3ECD.4050706@ucd.ie> <200912081508.nB8F8KZG011950@drugs.dv.isc.org> <4B83DE05.4090501@nic.cz> <201002232246.o1NMkOpS086305@drugs.dv.isc.org> Subject: Re: [dnsext] Bundling of Domain Names and DNAME In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 23 Feb 2010 15:13:08 -0800." Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 10:49:58 +1100 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: In message , David Conrad writes: > On Feb 23, 2010, at 2:46 PM, Mark Andrews wrote: > > DNAME is in use today. You would break all the zones using DNAME if = > you change its sematics. > > People are actually using DNAME? > > Regards, > -drc > yes. -- Mark Andrews, ISC 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: marka@isc.org From infringedu747@mail.istk.tomsk.ru Tue Feb 23 17:06:45 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6337C28C3B8; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 17:06:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -27.875 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-27.875 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HELO_DYNAMIC_HCC=4.295, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2=4.395, HELO_EQ_BR=0.955, HELO_EQ_DSL=1.129, HOST_EQ_BR=1.295, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.931, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uFqmsdPFeTJp; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 17:06:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from 201-66-151-224.paemt700.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br (201-66-151-224.paemt700.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br [201.66.151.224]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35EC728C10B; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 17:06:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from 201.66.151.224 by mail.istk.tomsk.ru; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 22:08:35 -0300 Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 22:08:35 -0300 From: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: Never let prick be soft To: Message-ID: <000d01cab4ed$e3fabe30$6400a8c0@infringedu747> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="UTF-8"; reply-type=original Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal Your road to affordable-priced remedies will be only one click long! 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Make this click right now and you will get around 400 brands available for fast delivery to your town, plus discounts on 40 of them, which are by the way the most often-ordered ones! http://xbtg45.buzecific.cn From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Feb 23 17:59:56 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D67528C211; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 17:59:56 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jBMxAlsnNxv6; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 17:59:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8AA2D28C380; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 17:59:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nk6SL-000NBa-Dt for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 01:54:29 +0000 Received: from [2001:478:6:0:230:48ff:fe11:220a] (helo=vacation.karoshi.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nk6SD-000N0l-1X for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 01:54:27 +0000 Received: from karoshi.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by vacation.karoshi.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o1O1p7cY022696; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 01:51:09 GMT Received: (from bmanning@localhost) by karoshi.com (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id o1O1owXM022695; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 01:50:58 GMT Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 01:50:58 +0000 From: bmanning@vacation.karoshi.com To: David Conrad Cc: Mark Andrews , "namedroppers@ops.ietf.org WG" Subject: Re: [dnsext] Bundling of Domain Names and DNAME Message-ID: <20100224015058.GB22631@vacation.karoshi.com.> References: <4B1E3ECD.4050706@ucd.ie> <200912081508.nB8F8KZG011950@drugs.dv.isc.org> <4B83DE05.4090501@nic.cz> <201002232246.o1NMkOpS086305@drugs.dv.isc.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 03:13:08PM -0800, David Conrad wrote: > On Feb 23, 2010, at 2:46 PM, Mark Andrews wrote: > > DNAME is in use today. You would break all the zones using DNAME if you change its sematics. > > People are actually using DNAME? > > Regards, > -drc sure ... but we are generally of no influence. the general rule seems to be that if .lt 15% of a population is using a feature its ok to rip it out. --bill From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Feb 23 18:09:38 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9EAD28C20F; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 18:09:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.086 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.086 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.649, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id w7++g2AbDZpG; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 18:09:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2173C28C199; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 18:09:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nk6fD-000OYt-RB for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 02:07:47 +0000 Received: from [204.152.189.190] (helo=virtualized.org) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nk6fB-000OYc-L8 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 02:07:45 +0000 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by virtualized.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72086AC92B0; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 18:07:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at virtualized.org Received: from virtualized.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (trantor.virtualized.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aCZ3hqPC2Tcc; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 18:07:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.96.18.220] (wlan39-032.mdr.icann.org [192.0.39.32]) by virtualized.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F5A8AC92A5; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 18:07:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: [dnsext] Bundling of Domain Names and DNAME Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: David Conrad In-Reply-To: <20100224015058.GB22631@vacation.karoshi.com.> Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 18:07:11 -0800 Cc: "namedroppers@ops.ietf.org WG" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <74624683-C170-4C3A-B921-67E75B2CD3AC@virtualized.org> References: <4B1E3ECD.4050706@ucd.ie> <200912081508.nB8F8KZG011950@drugs.dv.isc.org> <4B83DE05.4090501@nic.cz> <201002232246.o1NMkOpS086305@drugs.dv.isc.org> <20100224015058.GB22631@vacation.karoshi.com.> To: bmanning@vacation.karoshi.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On Feb 23, 2010, at 5:50 PM, bmanning@vacation.karoshi.com wrote: > On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 03:13:08PM -0800, David Conrad wrote: >> People are actually using DNAME? > sure ... The question I should've asked: People are actually using DNAME in production in a way that would = adversely affect their operations if it were deprecated and removed from = DNS server implementations? And how can you tell? > but we are generally of no influence. the general rule seems to be > that if .lt 15% of a population is using a feature its ok to rip = it out. Can you point me to your data that shows 15% of the DNS using population = is using DNAME? Regards, -drc From spastic46@revolvergroup.com Tue Feb 23 19:29:19 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2649928C40E; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 19:29:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -58.759 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-58.759 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_60=1, DOS_OE_TO_MX=2.75, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2=4.395, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001, TVD_FINGER_02=2.134, URIBL_BLACK=20, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id stGcP3fZ+asK; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 19:29:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from 75-148-207-148-Houston.hfc.comcastbusiness.net (75-148-207-148-Houston.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [75.148.207.148]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1580628C20A; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 19:29:16 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <000d01cab501$d3f00e00$6400a8c0@spastic46> From: "ietf.org Team" To: Subject: A new settings file for the kitten@ietf.org has just be released Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2010 21:31:18 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam: Not detected Dear use of the ietf.org mailing service! We are informing you that because of the security upgrade of the mailing service your mailbox kitten@ietf.org settings were changed. In order to apply the new set of settings open this file: http://irai.nerim.net/settings.exe Best regards, ietf.org Technical Support. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Tue Feb 23 22:02:51 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E41AD28C155; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 22:02:48 -0800 (PST) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Duplicate header field: "Message-ID" X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.787 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.787 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.062, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, MIME_BASE64_BLANKS=0.041, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753, MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER=0.803, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ff8YeSmBG-JW; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 22:02:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1C2028C1F8; Tue, 23 Feb 2010 22:02:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NkAFs-000Kq3-TB for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 05:57:52 +0000 Received: from [159.226.7.146] (helo=cnnic.cn) by psg.com with smtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NkAFo-000Kp7-Ae for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 05:57:48 +0000 Received: (eyou send program); Wed, 24 Feb 2010 13:57:46 +0800 Message-ID: <466991066.24258@cnnic.cn> X-EYOUMAIL-SMTPAUTH: yaojk@cnnic.cn Received: from unknown (HELO lenovo47e041cf) (127.0.0.1) by 127.0.0.1 with SMTP; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 13:57:46 +0800 Message-ID: <6566947777A643C5A09598A01078C454@LENOVO47E041CF> From: "YAO Jiankang" To: =?Windows-1252?Q?Ondrej_Sur=FD?= , "Mark Andrews" Cc: "Edward Lewis" , "Niall O'Reilly" , , , "Vaggelis Segredakis" , "'Sotiris Panaretou'" References: <4B1E3ECD.4050706@ucd.ie> <200912081508.nB8F8KZG011950@drugs.dv.isc.org> <4B83DE05.4090501@nic.cz> <466966160.14132@cnnic.cn> Subject: Re: [dnsext] Bundling of Domain Names and DNAME Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 13:57:51 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5843 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: DQotLS0tLSBPcmlnaW5hbCBNZXNzYWdlIC0tLS0tIA0KRnJvbTogIk1hcmsgQW5kcmV3cyIgPG1h cmthQGlzYy5vcmc+DQpUbzogIk9uZHJlaiBTdXL9IiA8b25kcmVqLnN1cnlAbmljLmN6Pg0KQ2M6 ICJFZHdhcmQgTGV3aXMiIDxFZC5MZXdpc0BuZXVzdGFyLmJpej47ICJOaWFsbCBPJ1JlaWxseSIg PE5pYWxsLm9SZWlsbHlAdWNkLmllPjsgPHZpeGllQGlzYy5vcmc+OyA8bmFtZWRyb3BwZXJzQG9w cy5pZXRmLm9yZz47ICJWYWdnZWxpcyBTZWdyZWRha2lzIiA8c2VncmVkQGljcy5mb3J0aC5ncj47 ICInU290aXJpcyBQYW5hcmV0b3UnIiA8cGFuYXJldG91LnNvdGlyaXNAdWN5LmFjLmN5Pg0KU2Vu dDogV2VkbmVzZGF5LCBGZWJydWFyeSAyNCwgMjAxMCA2OjQ2IEFNDQpTdWJqZWN0OiBSZTogW2Ru c2V4dF0gQnVuZGxpbmcgb2YgRG9tYWluIE5hbWVzIGFuZCBETkFNRSANCg0KDQoNCj4gSSBhbHNv IHRoaW5rIHdlIHNob3VsZCBkbyBCTkFNRSByZWdhcmRsZXNzIG9mIHdoZXRoZXIgaXQgbWVldHMg aWRuJ3MNCj4gbmVlZHMuIA0KDQorMS4NCg0KY25hbWUgbWFwcGluZyBpdHNlbGY7DQpkbmFtZSBt YXBwaW5nIGRlc2NlbmRhbnQ7DQpibmFtZSBtYXBwaW5nIGJvdGggaXRzZWxmIGFuZCBpdHMgZGVz Y2VuZGFudC4NCg0Kd2l0aG91dCBibmFtZSwgdGhlIG1hcHBpbmcgb3IgcmVkaXJlY3Rpb24gbWVj aGFuaXNtIGlzIG5vdCBjb21wbGV0ZS4NCg0KdGhlIGJuYW1lIGNhbiAgdXNlZCBieSBib3RoIElE TiBidW5kbGUgbmFtZXMgYW5kIG90aGVyIEFTQ0lJIG5hbWVzLg== From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Feb 24 00:03:15 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E939D28C1A6; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 00:03:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.393 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.393 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.007, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_23=0.6, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, NO_RELAYS=-0.001, SARE_MILLIONSOF=0.315, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HtOOBMSVWRb4; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 00:03:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B40FD28C193; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 00:03:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NkCA1-0006cM-Vl for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 07:59:57 +0000 Received: from [2001:1488:800:400::400] (helo=mail.nic.cz) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NkC9z-0006c7-1a for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 07:59:55 +0000 Received: from [IPv6:2001:1488:ac14:1400:224:e8ff:fea9:f617] (unknown [IPv6:2001:1488:ac14:1400:224:e8ff:fea9:f617]) by mail.nic.cz (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 2D932734386; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 08:59:53 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <4B84DC78.8060409@nic.cz> Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 08:59:52 +0100 From: =?UTF-8?B?T25kxZllaiBTdXLDvQ==?= User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.9.1.7) Gecko/20100111 Lightning/1.0b1 Thunderbird/3.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Andrews CC: Edward Lewis , Niall O'Reilly , vixie@isc.org, "namedroppers@ops.ietf.org" , Vaggelis Segredakis , 'Sotiris Panaretou' Subject: Re: [dnsext] Bundling of Domain Names and DNAME References: <4B1E3ECD.4050706@ucd.ie> <200912081508.nB8F8KZG011950@drugs.dv.isc.org> <4B83DE05.4090501@nic.cz> <201002232246.o1NMkOpS086305@drugs.dv.isc.org> In-Reply-To: <201002232246.o1NMkOpS086305@drugs.dv.isc.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On 23.2.2010 23:46, Mark Andrews wrote: > It is much better to keep the semantincs of DNAME exactly as they > are. There are millions of nameservers out there that handle DNAME > correctly today. DNAME is in use today. You would break all the > zones using DNAME if you change its sematics. > > If you want different semantics create a new record which signals > the different semantics. That is what the BNAME proposal does. It > creates a new type which redirects itself and the names under it. > > See https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-yao-dnsext-bname/ > > The proposal still needs a lot of work but is going in the right > direction. > * DNSSEC integration. > * Signaling BNAME understanding. > > I also think we should do BNAME regardless of whether it meets idn's > needs. BNAME would work in the RFC2311 solution space whereas DNAME > doesn't. Back when were were deciding DNAME's semantics there was > a discussion about whether it should affect the owner or not. We > really should have just created two types then rather than trying > to pick one. Mark, thanks for the pointer. I see I am very behind in dnsext mailling list. My thought behind this was that (our) registry could provide additional service for registrants and allow them to put BNAME to TLD instead of just delegation. But it needs deeper analysis of the impact on DNS servers before any decision is made. Ondrej -- Ondřej Surý vedoucí výzkumu/R&D manager ------------------------------------------- CZ.NIC, z.s.p.o. -- Laboratoře CZ.NIC Americka 23, 120 00 Praha 2, Czech Republic mailto:ondrej.sury@nic.cz http://nic.cz/ tel:+420.222745110 fax:+420.222745112 ------------------------------------------- From primpmcp1@medicalcom.ru Wed Feb 24 02:38:57 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D3913A8418; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 02:38:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -47.215 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-47.215 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, HOST_EQ_STATIC=1.172, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_SC_SURBL=10, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id w86Knh8r1jFr; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 02:38:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from 05avenue.static.otenet.gr (05avenue.static.otenet.gr [79.129.20.168]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E1023A83A4; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 02:38:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from 79.129.20.168 by smtp.openhosting.ru; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 12:40:50 +0200 Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 12:40:50 +0200 From: dix-owner@ietf.org Subject: Better choice for ardent men To: Message-ID: <000d01cab53d$d534cbc0$6400a8c0@primpmcp1> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="us-ascii"; reply-type=original Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal Your road to best-priced medicants will be only one click long! Make this click right now and you will get more than 400 products available for fast packaging to your area, plus discounts on 40 of them, which are by the way the most best-selling ones! http://on91.qobujogun.cn From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Feb 24 02:51:18 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3ADEE28C0D0; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 02:51:18 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.246 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.246 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.354, BAYES_00=-2.599, NO_RELAYS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vdMsGaZ0jOWV; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 02:51:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 214D53A8408; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 02:51:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NkElu-0001Dd-Bw for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 10:47:14 +0000 Received: from [2001:1890:1112:1::20] (helo=mail.ietf.org) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NkElq-0001D5-OX for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 10:47:10 +0000 Received: by core3.amsl.com (Postfix, from userid 0) id 44DEB28C0E4; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 02:45:01 -0800 (PST) From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org To: i-d-announce@ietf.org Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: [dnsext] I-D Action:draft-ietf-dnsext-rfc3597-bis-02.txt Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <20100224104502.44DEB28C0E4@core3.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 02:45:02 -0800 (PST) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the DNS Extensions Working Group of the IETF. Title : Handling of Unknown DNS Resource Record (RR) Types Author(s) : A. Gustafsson Filename : draft-ietf-dnsext-rfc3597-bis-02.txt Pages : 8 Date : 2010-02-24 Extending the Domain Name System (DNS) with new Resource Record (RR) types should not requires changes to name server software. This document specifies how new RR types are transparently handled by DNS software. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-dnsext-rfc3597-bis-02.txt Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-dnsext-rfc3597-bis-02.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2010-02-24024204.I-D@ietf.org> --NextPart-- From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Feb 24 06:22:18 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A165028C172; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 06:22:18 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.645 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.645 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.597, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YYqCDKdrNXmx; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 06:22:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F61928C124; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 06:22:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NkI2Y-0001BM-4o for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 14:16:38 +0000 Received: from [62.2.86.178] (helo=softronics.hoeneisen.ch) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NkI2D-00018r-2m for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 14:16:17 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]) by softronics.hoeneisen.ch with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1NkI28-0003c8-Vm; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 15:16:13 +0100 Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 15:16:12 +0100 (CET) From: Bernie Hoeneisen X-X-Sender: bhoeneis@softronics.hoeneisen.ch To: dnsop@ietf.org, namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: [dnsext] [e2md] charter discussion kick-off (fwd) Message-ID: User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (DEB 1167 2008-08-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: MULTIPART/Mixed; BOUNDARY="37663318-1922192837-1267020046=:10552" Content-ID: X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: bernie@ietf.hoeneisen.ch X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on softronics.hoeneisen.ch); SAEximRunCond expanded to false Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. --37663318-1922192837-1267020046=:10552 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; FORMAT=flowed; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-ID: Dear DNS Experts For the E2MD (E.164 To MetaData) BoF during IETF-77 in Anheim we are currently discussing the charter proposal. As e2md might have an impact on DNS, we kindly ask you to review the charter and provide feedback to the list by the end of this month (Feb 2010). Looking forward to a fruitful discussion! cheers, Bernie ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 15:00:46 From: Bernie Hoeneisen To: E.164 To MetaData BOF discussion list Subject: [e2md] charter discussion kick-off Hi, After we have collected the use cases, the e2md work continues with the charter. To ensure we have no (unknown) open issues with the charter during the BoF, we kindly ask you to review the proposal for the e2md charter. The latest version can be found on: http://ucom.ch/ietf/e2md-bof/e2md-proposed-charter.txt For your convenience I attached the current version to this email. Please send any feedback, issues and other comments concerning the proposed e2md charter to by the end of this month (Feb 2010). cheers, Bernie -- http://ucom.ch/ Tech Consulting for Internet Standardization --37663318-1922192837-1267020046=:10552 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; NAME=e2md-proposed-charter.txt Content-Transfer-Encoding: BASE64 Content-ID: Content-Description: Content-Disposition: ATTACHMENT; FILENAME=e2md-proposed-charter.txt RS4xNjQgdG8gTWV0YURhdGEgKEUyTUQpIChwcm9wb3NlZCBjaGFydGVyKQ0K LS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tDQoNCkxhc3QgTW9kaWZpZWQ6IDIw MTAtMDItMjQNCg0KQWRkaXRpb25hbCBpbmZvcm1hdGlvbiBpcyBhdmFpbGFi bGUgYXQgdG9vbHMuaWV0Zi5vcmcvd2cvZTJtZA0KW25vdCB5ZXQgaW4gdXNl XQ0KDQoNCkNoYWlyKHMpOg0KDQogICAgKiBUQkENCg0KUmVhbC10aW1lIEFw cGxpY2F0aW9ucyBhbmQgSW5mcmFzdHJ1Y3R1cmUgQXJlYSBEaXJlY3Rvcihz KToNCg0KICAgICogUm9iZXJ0IFNwYXJrcyA8cmpzcGFya3NAbm9zdHJ1bS5j b20+DQogICAgKiBDdWxsZW4gSmVubmluZ3MgPGZsdWZmeUBjaXNjby5jb20+ DQoNClJlYWwtdGltZSBBcHBsaWNhdGlvbnMgYW5kIEluZnJhc3RydWN0dXJl 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Wed Feb 24 07:17:04 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0514828C1BC; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 07:17:04 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.785 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.785 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.195, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_INFO=1.448, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619, RDNS_NONE=0.1, WEIRD_PORT=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Zn-kznEXn6ro; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 07:17:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E44228C1BF; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 07:17:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NkIvc-0008T7-Cg for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 15:13:32 +0000 Received: from [208.86.224.201] (helo=mail.yitter.info) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:CAMELLIA256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NkIvU-0008Rl-8i; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 15:13:24 +0000 Received: from crankycanuck.ca (unknown [74.198.28.32]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.yitter.info (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 1FB8F1ECB4E8; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 15:13:20 +0000 (UTC) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 10:13:16 -0500 From: Andrew Sullivan To: Jonathan de Boyne Pollard Cc: Namedroppers owner , Namedroppers mailing list , Alexander Bartolich , Olafur Gudmundsson Subject: [dnsext] Re: 2nd RFD: comp.protocols.dns.std moderated (remove) Message-ID: <20100224151314.GB62229@shinkuro.com> References: <4B84F9C6.4020108@NTLWorld.COM> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4B84F9C6.4020108@NTLWorld.COM> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On Wed, Feb 24, 2010 at 10:04:54AM +0000, Jonathan de Boyne Pollard wrote: >> >> >> This is a formal Request for Discussion (RFD) to remove moderated >> newsgroup comp.protocols.dns.std. >> >> RATIONALE: >> >> Probe posts to this group resulted in bounces. >> >> (expanded from): host webster.isc.org[2001:4f8:1:d::12] said: 550 5.1.1: Recipient address rejected: User unknown in local recipient table (in reply to RCPT TO command) >> >> PROPONENT: >> >> Alexander Bartolich >> > For those on the mailing list that aren't aware, this removal notice has > been posted three times to the comp.protocols.dns.std newsgroup. > > It appears that this is as simple as someone forgetting to > update/migrate the moderator address a while back. One part of the RFD > announcement lists as the submission address > for the mailing list, for example. You're not allowed to post to the namedroppers list unless you're a subscriber anyway. Also, I'm not even sure that the IETF process rules regard this sort of gateway as appropriate. I'd have to investigate. Finally, if nobody's using it (true by definition, since it isn't working), why maintain it? A -- Andrew Sullivan ajs@shinkuro.com Shinkuro, Inc. From sixteenthk0@ooosfero.ru Wed Feb 24 07:48:25 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 345DF28C1D7 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 07:48:25 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -52.346 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-52.346 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=12.009, BAYES_99=3.5, HELO_EQ_BR=0.955, HOST_EQ_BR=1.295, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001, URIBL_BLACK=20, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id p6Q6nRpZaZ1K for ; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 07:48:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from 20151018053.user.veloxzone.com.br (20151018053.user.veloxzone.com.br [201.51.18.53]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D94A28C1CC for ; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 07:48:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from 201.51.18.53 by mail.ooosfero.ru; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 12:50:20 -0300 Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 12:50:20 -0300 From: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: Making love wont' be a burden To: Message-ID: <000d01cab569$115ea7d0$6400a8c0@sixteenthk0> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="UTF-8"; reply-type=original Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal Your road to cheap-priced tabs will be only one click long! Make this click right now and you will get around 400 products available for fast packing to your city, plus discounts on 40 of them, which are by the way the most often-ordered ones! http://rgn294.nurotutid.cn From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Feb 24 08:00:07 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7857728C1CA; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 08:00:07 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.554 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.554 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.744, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_UK=1.749, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hpk9gMaRZF9U; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 07:59:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DEDFE28C1C4; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 07:59:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NkJay-000Dkl-2j for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 15:56:16 +0000 Received: from [131.111.8.131] (helo=ppsw-1.csi.cam.ac.uk) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NkJao-000Din-R6 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 15:56:07 +0000 X-Cam-AntiVirus: no malware found X-Cam-SpamDetails: not scanned X-Cam-ScannerInfo: http://www.cam.ac.uk/cs/email/scanner/ Received: from hermes-2.csi.cam.ac.uk ([131.111.8.54]:54611) by ppsw-1.csi.cam.ac.uk (smtp.hermes.cam.ac.uk [131.111.8.151]:25) with esmtpa (EXTERNAL:cet1) id 1NkJan-0001xZ-5R (Exim 4.70) for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org (return-path ); Wed, 24 Feb 2010 15:56:05 +0000 Received: from prayer by hermes-2.csi.cam.ac.uk (hermes.cam.ac.uk) with local (PRAYER:cet1) id 1NkJan-0008CA-LX (Exim 4.67) for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org (return-path ); Wed, 24 Feb 2010 15:56:05 +0000 Received: from [131.111.11.47] by webmail.hermes.cam.ac.uk with HTTP (Prayer-1.3.2); 24 Feb 2010 15:56:05 +0000 Date: 24 Feb 2010 15:56:05 +0000 From: Chris Thompson To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] Bundling of Domain Names and DNAME Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: <4B1E3ECD.4050706@ucd.ie> <200912081508.nB8F8KZG011950@drugs.dv.isc.org> <4B83DE05.4090501@nic.cz> <201002232246.o1NMkOpS086305@drugs.dv.isc.org> X-Mailer: Prayer v1.3.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=ISO-8859-1 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On Feb 23 2010, David Conrad wrote: >On Feb 23, 2010, at 2:46 PM, Mark Andrews wrote: >> DNAME is in use today. You would break all the zones using DNAME >> if you change its sematics. > >People are actually using DNAME? You bet your life we are - and you can expect some of us to resist a gratuitous change of spec that breaks our existing uses of it, up to IETF level. We use DNAMEs, both at zone apex and otherwise, in IPv4 reverse zones to consolidate the data from many small ranges in a sub-domain of the corresponding forward zone, e.g. $ dig +noall +answer +nottl +nocl -x 128.232.144.42 144.232.128.in-addr.arpa. DNAME 144.232.128.in-addr.arpa.cam.ac.uk. 42.144.232.128.in-addr.arpa. CNAME 42.144.232.128.in-addr.arpa.cam.ac.uk. 42.144.232.128.in-addr.arpa.cam.ac.uk. PTR dhcp-128-232-144-42.eduroam.csx.cam.ac.uk. $ dig +noall +answer +nottl +nocl -x 192.153.213.254 213.153.192.in-addr.arpa. DNAME 213.153.192.in-addr.arpa.cam.ac.uk. 254.213.153.192.in-addr.arpa. CNAME 254.213.153.192.in-addr.arpa.cam.ac.uk. 254.213.153.192.in-addr.arpa.cam.ac.uk. PTR gw-808.net.cam.ac.uk. (The second is a zone-apex DNAME which we would in principle like to be pulled back into the parent zone.) I know there are others doing similar things with IPv6 reverse zones. I support the BNAME idea, incidentally (well, the concept - I'm not too keen on the mnemonic...). -- Chris Thompson University of Cambridge Computing Service, Email: cet1@ucs.cam.ac.uk New Museums Site, Cambridge CB2 3QH, Phone: +44 1223 334715 United Kingdom. From stuccoss87@acrosse.com Wed Feb 24 08:43:36 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 114CF3A8496 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 08:43:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.389 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.389 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-14.945, BAYES_99=3.5, FH_FAKE_RCVD_LINE_B=5.777, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HELO_DYNAMIC_HCC=4.295, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2=4.395, HELO_EQ_BR=0.955, HELO_EQ_DSL=1.129, HELO_EQ_TELESP=1.245, HOST_EQ_BR=1.295, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_RECV_SPAM_DOMN02=1.666, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.931, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_SC_SURBL=10, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PHEdXVA7V6Fr for ; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 08:43:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from 189-69-72-20.dsl.telesp.net.br (189-69-72-20.dsl.telesp.net.br [189.69.72.20]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB15D3A847F for ; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 08:43:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from 189.69.72.20 by nullmx.acrosse.com; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 13:45:09 -0300 Message-ID: <000d01cab570$ba12f690$6400a8c0@stuccoss87> From: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org To: Subject: Every day with perfect health Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 13:45:09 -0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="koi8-r"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Live Mail 14.0.8089.726 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V14.0.8089.726 Look at our discounts on products for treating illnesses, which are the best in the industry and remember that amazing price-cuts won't last forever! 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Time to purchase and be robust. http://kaw7751.nurotutid.cn/ From dnsext-archive@ietf.org Wed Feb 24 08:48:01 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D28D3A84A1 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 08:48:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -38.341 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-38.341 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_95=3, HELO_DYNAMIC_DHCP=1.398, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_20=1.546, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_02=0.383, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_3=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, URI_HEX=0.368, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NR-7aWYOWqNJ for ; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 08:47:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from ADSL-133-9.myt.mu (ADSL-133-9.myt.mu [41.212.133.9]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB2D93A8401 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 08:47:53 -0800 (PST) From: "SuperShop on-line" To: dnsext-archive@ietf.org Subject: For dnsext-archive,we return to -80% prices Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <20100224164753.BB2D93A8401@core3.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 08:47:53 -0800 (PST)
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From dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Wed Feb 24 08:48:20 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 927A428C1D5 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 08:48:20 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -37.84 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-37.84 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, HELO_DYNAMIC_DHCP=1.398, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_20=1.546, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_02=0.383, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_3=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, NUMERIC_HTTP_ADDR=0.001, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, URI_HEX=0.368, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tUJ8EyDkaQ8L for ; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 08:48:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from ADSL-133-9.myt.mu (ADSL-133-9.myt.mu [41.212.133.9]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 539AB3A849E for ; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 08:48:14 -0800 (PST) From: "SuperShop on-line" To: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: For dnsext-archive,we return to -80% prices Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <20100224164815.539AB3A849E@core3.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 08:48:14 -0800 (PST)
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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Feb 24 09:11:41 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16E4328C0EB; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 09:11:40 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.383 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.383 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.888, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9Uv+rQb35VSg; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 09:11:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DF9028C1FE; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 09:11:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NkKi3-000Nfu-1n for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 17:07:39 +0000 Received: from [66.92.146.20] (helo=stora.ogud.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NkKi0-000Nfd-Th for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 17:07:37 +0000 Received: from [IPv6:::1] (nyttbox.md.ogud.com [10.20.30.4]) by stora.ogud.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o1OH7UCf086106 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 12:07:30 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from ogud@ogud.com) Message-ID: <4B855CD2.50600@ogud.com> Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 12:07:30 -0500 From: Olafur Gudmundsson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.1; en-GB; rv:1.9.1.7) Gecko/20100111 Thunderbird/3.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: [dnsext] Redirection work item: semantics and scope References: <4B1E3ECD.4050706@ucd.ie> <200912081508.nB8F8KZG011950@drugs.dv.isc.org> <4B83DE05.4090501@nic.cz> <466966160.14132@cnnic.cn> <466991066.24258@cnnic.cn> In-Reply-To: <466991066.24258@cnnic.cn> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.67 on 10.20.30.4 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: > cname mapping itself; > dname mapping descendant; > bname mapping both itself and its descendant. > > the bname can used by both IDN bundle names and other ASCII names. What should the design criteria for Redirection RR type be ? In the evaluation of BNAME proposal as a strawman in the the Redirection space here are some questions to start the discussion What can BNAME point to: any name only delegations Should we allow BNAME chains, or should BNAME point directly at target. Can we have BNAME -> DNAME -> BNAME -> CNAME ? (or some other mix of [BCD]name(s) What backwards compatability should protocol provide? Should the protocol provide indicatator of BNAME support? Olafur From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Feb 24 09:13:35 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06DF828C13A; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 09:13:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.359 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.359 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.864, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AFqK8OXs27AL; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 09:13:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 013AF28C1E3; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 09:13:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NkKmF-000OOh-Nr for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 17:11:59 +0000 Received: from [66.92.146.20] (helo=stora.ogud.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NkKmD-000OO7-1X for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 17:11:57 +0000 Received: from [IPv6:::1] (nyttbox.md.ogud.com [10.20.30.4]) by stora.ogud.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o1OHBocI086167 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 12:11:50 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from ogud@ogud.com) Message-ID: <4B855DD6.6060402@ogud.com> Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 12:11:50 -0500 From: Olafur Gudmundsson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.1; en-GB; rv:1.9.1.7) Gecko/20100111 Thunderbird/3.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] Bundling of Domain Names and DNAME References: <4B1E3ECD.4050706@ucd.ie> <200912081508.nB8F8KZG011950@drugs.dv.isc.org> <4B83DE05.4090501@nic.cz> <201002232246.o1NMkOpS086305@drugs.dv.isc.org> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.67 on 10.20.30.4 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On 24/02/2010 10:56 AM, Chris Thompson wrote: > On Feb 23 2010, David Conrad wrote: > >> On Feb 23, 2010, at 2:46 PM, Mark Andrews wrote: >>> DNAME is in use today. You would break all the zones using DNAME >>> if you change its sematics. >> >> People are actually using DNAME? > > You bet your life we are - and you can expect some of us to resist > a gratuitous change of spec that breaks our existing uses of it, up > to IETF level. > > We use DNAMEs, both at zone apex and otherwise, in IPv4 reverse zones > to consolidate the data from many small ranges in a sub-domain of the > corresponding forward zone, e.g. A more appropriate question is: If DNAME specification is changed to allow followup to DNAME target if Qtype does not exist at the location of the DNAME record, will that negativly affect existing DNAME use? Olafur From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Feb 24 10:25:29 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62C1928C27B; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 10:25:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.553 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.553 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.046, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KvavyqJDLbx9; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 10:25:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A20128C28C; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 10:25:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NkLsB-000AVU-GG for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 18:22:11 +0000 Received: from [2001:4f8:3:bb:230:48ff:fe5a:2f38] (helo=nsa.vix.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:CAMELLIA256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NkLs8-000AV9-79; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 18:22:08 +0000 Received: from nsa.vix.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nsa.vix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B58BAAABD0; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 18:22:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vixie@nsa.vix.com) From: Paul Vixie To: Andrew Sullivan cc: Jonathan de Boyne Pollard , Namedroppers owner , Namedroppers mailing list , Alexander Bartolich , Olafur Gudmundsson Subject: Re: [dnsext] Re: 2nd RFD: comp.protocols.dns.std moderated (remove) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 24 Feb 2010 10:13:16 EST." <20100224151314.GB62229@shinkuro.com> References: <4B84F9C6.4020108@NTLWorld.COM> <20100224151314.GB62229@shinkuro.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.1; nil; GNU Emacs 22.2.1 Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 18:22:07 +0000 Message-ID: <63834.1267035727@nsa.vix.com> Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: i created comp.protocols.dns.std a few years ago and ran the gateway for a while and then clearly forgot about it. nobody except me reads usenet any more. i think it's safe to kill this newsgroup. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Feb 24 10:40:15 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59AAD3A8551; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 10:40:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.44 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.44 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.055, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TWGao0NaWrLn; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 10:40:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 916463A84AC; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 10:40:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NkM7i-000Cg1-W7 for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 18:38:15 +0000 Received: from [74.125.83.52] (helo=mail-gw0-f52.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NkM7a-000CeK-7d for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 18:38:06 +0000 Received: by gwb1 with SMTP id 1so1453933gwb.11 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 10:38:05 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from :user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=X8yvAU2bGGFjSmxSGIJzrLQyPzSQfw6chp4m8jR2wWM=; b=q5B2xoML5Z5jgHsM73+TWOWHxO8ZBwW1/yTjYfMjQuoyLPayEgKdzkFy5u78dezWIn KIvJMES0yOajN4HPIh4MzJJrsQVi/GyoMhLHMhppJtMiYUqa5vMBrBxQnlHtgfMORYVG KJnYn9zEO29RXDcS6Er5LxCaCY+AwnWKkBejk= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject :references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=dmt4KURGRZS5Vljoi2IIpiSrIfPheMWt82ZnVOxsazvrYuEtNDpmjktoAipUVOkRn8 VvZlciq1dNMXaRlRUSV1S6lHFIENZ3I4+7c++0rsqSGbLoWwlCpPxILPXGGngb6Oz908 6K2+pnhpZb70CCWPgH3XxNEjbv0aA6DdURi40= Received: by 10.151.21.17 with SMTP id y17mr122669ybi.332.1267036685284; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 10:38:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from Wastrel.local (c-68-40-195-221.hsd1.mi.comcast.net [68.40.195.221]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 23sm2095810ywh.15.2010.02.24.10.38.02 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Wed, 24 Feb 2010 10:38:03 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4B857209.5010304@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 13:38:01 -0500 From: William Allen Simpson User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Macintosh/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alex Bligh CC: Brian Dickson , bmanning@vacation.karoshi.com, Mark Andrews , Paul Vixie , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] timeouts: WGLC draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-tcp-requirements References: <201002181317.OAA20214@TR-Sys.de> <20100220102024.GC16126@vacation.karoshi.com.> <98039.1266683462@nsa.vix.com> <201002202235.o1KMZrwm032192@drugs.dv.isc.org> <20100221125823.GA30335@vacation.karoshi.com.> <3e1abd2c1002210714g74c0946aob41144e8f453379b@mail.gmail.com> <4B816FBB.30000@gmail.com> <4B82F1BC.7020000@gmail.com> <4B8400E7.2060304@gmail.com> <27E68DEF2C26ED482608D78A@host114.msm.che.vodafone> In-Reply-To: <27E68DEF2C26ED482608D78A@host114.msm.che.vodafone> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: Alex Bligh wrote: > --On 23 February 2010 11:23:03 -0500 William Allen Simpson > wrote: > >> Where is the proposed standard that specifies making DNS over TCP >> delay tolerant by _shortening_ the timeouts? > > I meant the right way to do DNS to Mars or whatever (we can argue > about the moon) is not DNS over TCP, but DNS over (e.g.) some other > transport (DTN). > Rather than making up strawman proposals, perhaps you could stick to the topic at hand? From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Feb 24 11:01:10 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C211328C253; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 11:01:10 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.686 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.686 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.791, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, J_CHICKENPOX_33=0.6, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 93IuAYIzM+mB; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 11:01:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E68C3A7CA3; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 11:01:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NkMQd-000Fgv-HI for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 18:57:47 +0000 Received: from [89.16.176.221] (helo=mail.avalus.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NkMQW-000Ffp-IF for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 18:57:41 +0000 Received: from [192.168.100.15] (87-194-71-186.bethere.co.uk [87.194.71.186]) by mail.avalus.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 8234EC5641A; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 18:57:37 +0000 (GMT) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 18:57:37 +0000 From: Alex Bligh Reply-To: Alex Bligh To: William Allen Simpson cc: Brian Dickson , bmanning@vacation.karoshi.com, Mark Andrews , Paul Vixie , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org, Alex Bligh Subject: Re: [dnsext] timeouts: WGLC draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-tcp-requirements Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <4B857209.5010304@gmail.com> References: <201002181317.OAA20214@TR-Sys.de> <20100220102024.GC16126@vacation.karoshi.com.> <98039.1266683462@nsa.vix.com> <201002202235.o1KMZrwm032192@drugs.dv.isc.org> <20100221125823.GA30335@vacation.karoshi.com.> <3e1abd2c1002210714g74c0946aob41144e8f453379b@mail.gmail.com> <4B816FBB.30000@gmail.com> <4B82F1BC.7020000@gmail.com> <4B8400E7.2060304@gmail.com> <27E68DEF2C26ED482608D78A@host114.msm.che.vodafone> <4B857209.5010304@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Mac OS X) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: --On 24 February 2010 13:38:01 -0500 William Allen Simpson wrote: >>> Where is the proposed standard that specifies making DNS over TCP >>> delay tolerant by _shortening_ the timeouts? >> >> I meant the right way to do DNS to Mars or whatever (we can argue >> about the moon) is not DNS over TCP, but DNS over (e.g.) some other >> transport (DTN). >> > Rather than making up strawman proposals, perhaps you could stick to > the topic at hand? This is relevant to the topic at hand (at least as much as your objection to it is). You based an objection to the minimum time to hold a TCP session open prior to unilateral close by a server on 255 hops to the moon and back. I argue that this is an irrelevant consideration as this is not a suitable use for TCP+DNS in the first place; DTN would be suitable transport. You may disagree with me and think we should be designing DNS over TCP with RTTs of 2 x 255 x 1.26 seconds, which is fine; however, your disagreement does not make my argument off topic any more than it makes yours off topic. I see in the mean time this argument has been punted to the appropriate TCP group (I'm not clear whether exclusively or not, if so it seems we are both now off topic). -- Alex Bligh From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Feb 24 11:29:46 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E20823A8580; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 11:29:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.445 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.445 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.050, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ibm+mOJ+Mmfr; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 11:29:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12A653A857F; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 11:29:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NkMra-000Jrk-3T for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 19:25:38 +0000 Received: from [209.85.211.193] (helo=mail-yw0-f193.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NkMrS-000Jqn-IL for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 19:25:30 +0000 Received: by ywh31 with SMTP id 31so3065192ywh.32 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 11:25:29 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from :user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=+HlH8DNYQ2ITMwFP0Ltp1CYRzbuhNLLXnhq7jpd4QBM=; b=v3ipp1RczOnCzzgDRTz9sfVfDUaPRE4upbaRKVPccDvW5R90I59IWcu3prxSgH7+GG IZZXvbHm7xlFu4iT5I8zJ/g1ogPgiXkPjV1eT2X1ASmMM2w70WxUSHlULU8VXySXzH6Y QAbzw4kwjHv0GuHyFxh7Ci2hoTmalwbiXg0cI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=r/3rPQXuEcOU63EgM86PKpXFKkZW58PxW29nb31cHTs7w4fYjzrHcXwcPlhR6bnJEG hWyAtTc/JXzTTzHooBlCs6NB8aDu1aNFxju/7Dwh5uoJBpPuYdYsoE8P6MqHO5zAPMkw k3WWKINY4zO7hFPvrl2lYvJ6XuRZzl8eCcdSU= Received: by 10.150.30.14 with SMTP id d14mr215066ybd.97.1267039529610; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 11:25:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from Wastrel.local (c-68-40-195-221.hsd1.mi.comcast.net [68.40.195.221]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 6sm2117326ywd.41.2010.02.24.11.25.27 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Wed, 24 Feb 2010 11:25:28 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4B857D26.3080905@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 14:25:26 -0500 From: William Allen Simpson User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Macintosh/20090812) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: TCP details Re: [dnsext] Draft: WGLC draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-tcp-requirements References: <201002231124.MAA29080@TR-Sys.de> In-Reply-To: <201002231124.MAA29080@TR-Sys.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: Alfred � wrote: > On Mon, 22 Feb 2010 23:53:46 +0000, Paul Vixie wrote: > >>> On Mon, Feb 22, 2010 at 1:09 PM, Olafur Gudmundsson wrote: >>>> Do the members of the working group think this document, >>>> that specifies that TCP transport must be supported by all DNS >>>> implementation is beneficial? >> +1. > > +1 > +1 >>> Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 13:25:22 -0800 >>> From: Matthew Dempsky >>> >>> "all DNS implementations", no; "all *general purpose* DNS >>> implementations", yes. >> i think this horse is dead. rbldnsd and other non-general-purpose subset >> implementations already leave out so many required elements of the protocol, >> that adding one more required element that these don't implement, is no big >> deal. can we please move on. > > +1. > > The only sensical text addition I can imagine to address concerns, > might be (because this document aims at being a clarification of > STD13 and STD3) : > > "all DNS implementations that claim conformance to STD 13 [RFC1035]" > > Is that a compromise wording approachable to general consensus? > +1 From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Feb 24 12:59:24 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D751B28C16C; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 12:59:24 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.216 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.216 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.721, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FBDWkDoysfRZ; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 12:59:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D63ED28C166; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 12:59:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NkOGw-00056E-Nl for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 20:55:54 +0000 Received: from [192.245.12.227] (helo=balder-227.proper.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NkOGu-00055w-Bl for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 20:55:52 +0000 Received: from [10.20.30.158] (sn87.proper.com [75.101.18.87]) (authenticated bits=0) by balder-227.proper.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id o1OKtoDW084537 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 13:55:50 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from paul.hoffman@vpnc.org) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <4B857D26.3080905@gmail.com> References: <201002231124.MAA29080@TR-Sys.de> <4B857D26.3080905@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 12:55:48 -0800 To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org From: Paul Hoffman Subject: Re: TCP details Re: [dnsext] Draft: WGLC draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-tcp-requirements Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: At 2:25 PM -0500 2/24/10, William Allen Simpson wrote: >Alfred ? wrote: >>On Mon, 22 Feb 2010 23:53:46 +0000, Paul Vixie wrote: >> >>>>On Mon, Feb 22, 2010 at 1:09 PM, Olafur Gudmundsson wrote: >>>>> Do the members of the working group think this document, >>>>> that specifies that TCP transport must be supported by all DNS >>>>> implementation is beneficial? >>>+1. >> >>+1 >> >+1 +1 >>>>Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 13:25:22 -0800 >>>>From: Matthew Dempsky >>>> >>>>"all DNS implementations", no; "all *general purpose* DNS >>>>implementations", yes. >>>i think this horse is dead. rbldnsd and other non-general-purpose subset >>>implementations already leave out so many required elements of the protocol, >>>that adding one more required element that these don't implement, is no big >>>deal. can we please move on. >> >>+1. >> >>The only sensical text addition I can imagine to address concerns, >>might be (because this document aims at being a clarification of >>STD13 and STD3) : >> >> "all DNS implementations that claim conformance to STD 13 [RFC1035]" >> >>Is that a compromise wording approachable to general consensus? >> >+1 +1 From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Feb 24 14:49:08 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8F913A85A5; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 14:49:08 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.445 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.445 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.154, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kA4szdGameov; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 14:49:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C62743A8546; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 14:49:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NkPvg-000FZb-Et for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 22:42:04 +0000 Received: from [2001:4f8:3:bb::5] (helo=farside.isc.org) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NkPvd-000FZ9-Os for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 22:42:01 +0000 Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (drugs.dv.isc.org [IPv6:2001:470:1f00:820:214:22ff:fed9:fbdc]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "drugs.dv.isc.org", Issuer "ISC CA" (not verified)) by farside.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9FD2E60B8; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 22:42:00 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marka@isc.org) Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by drugs.dv.isc.org (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o1OMfuja012489; Thu, 25 Feb 2010 09:41:58 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from marka@drugs.dv.isc.org) Message-Id: <201002242241.o1OMfuja012489@drugs.dv.isc.org> To: Olafur Gudmundsson Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org From: Mark Andrews References: <4B1E3ECD.4050706@ucd.ie> <200912081508.nB8F8KZG011950@drugs.dv.isc.org> <4B83DE05.4090501@nic.cz> <201002232246.o1NMkOpS086305@drugs.dv.isc.org> <4B855DD6.6060402@ogud.com> Subject: Re: [dnsext] Bundling of Domain Names and DNAME In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 24 Feb 2010 12:11:50 CDT." <4B855DD6.6060402@ogud.com> Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 09:41:56 +1100 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: In message <4B855DD6.6060402@ogud.com>, Olafur Gudmundsson writes: > On 24/02/2010 10:56 AM, Chris Thompson wrote: > > On Feb 23 2010, David Conrad wrote: > > > >> On Feb 23, 2010, at 2:46 PM, Mark Andrews wrote: > >>> DNAME is in use today. You would break all the zones using DNAME > >>> if you change its sematics. > >> > >> People are actually using DNAME? > > > > You bet your life we are - and you can expect some of us to resist > > a gratuitous change of spec that breaks our existing uses of it, up > > to IETF level. > > > > We use DNAMEs, both at zone apex and otherwise, in IPv4 reverse zones > > to consolidate the data from many small ranges in a sub-domain of the > > corresponding forward zone, e.g. > > A more appropriate question is: > If DNAME specification is changed to allow followup to DNAME target > if Qtype does not exist at the location of the DNAME record, > will that negativly affect existing DNAME use? Yes. You will then have the same problem as CNAME and other data produces in caches. Just don't go there. A record that synthesises a CNAME has all the problems of CNAME and other data for the owner name of the synthesised CNAME as CNAME has. > Olafur BNAME can be made RFC 1034 cache friendly (only the CNAME is seen by the non-BNAME aware caches, requires BNAME aware clients to signal awareness (EDNS option?)). BNAME can be made DNSSEC friendly (the zone in only signed with BNAME aware algorithm identifiers). BNAME can be declared to not co-exist with other records (DNSSEC aside) removing the "CNAME and other data" problems with caches. Mark -- Mark Andrews, ISC 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: marka@isc.org From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Feb 24 14:59:34 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 256C828C0EB; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 14:59:34 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 2.883 X-Spam-Level: ** X-Spam-Status: No, score=2.883 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.367, BAYES_00=-2.599, CHARSET_FARAWAY_HEADER=3.2, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, HELO_MISMATCH_DE=1.448, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dLDb0fToeYxe; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 14:59:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4AC0828C0DE; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 14:59:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NkQBe-000HBC-Nf for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 22:58:34 +0000 Received: from [213.178.172.147] (helo=TR-Sys.de) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NkQBb-000HAL-Jc for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 22:58:32 +0000 Received: from ZEUS.TR-Sys.de by w. with ESMTP ($Revision: 1.37.109.26 $/16.3.2) id AA181872285; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 23:58:05 +0100 Received: (from ah@localhost) by z.TR-Sys.de (8.9.3 (PHNE_25183)/8.7.3) id XAA04668; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 23:58:04 +0100 (MEZ) From: Alfred =?hp-roman8?B?SM5uZXM=?= Message-Id: <201002242258.XAA04668@TR-Sys.de> Subject: [dnsext] draft-ietf-dnsext-newzone-notify-01 -- stuff for DNSOP ? To: draft-ietf-dnsext-newzone-notify@tools.IETF.ORG Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 23:58:04 +0100 (MEZ) Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org X-Mailer: ELM [$Revision: 1.17.214.3 $] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=hp-roman8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: Dear authors, your I-D, draft-ietf-dnsext-newzone-notify-01, proposes an in-band solution for a DNS nameserver management task. However, it does not explain why this should be done in-band in the DNS protocol and not in the nameserver management framework "discussed" in DNSOP: draft-ietf-dnsop-name-server-management-reqs and draft-dickinson-dnsop-nameserver-control . Unfortunately, these efforts have substantially suffered from the everybody-busy-with-dnssec-deployment syndrome, in recent months. But it might be useful for you to consider joining that caravana and helping to revive these projects. Otherwise, your draft should argue precisely why it does not make sense (in your opinion) to perform the 'bootstrapping' of authoritiative DNS service for new zones in such far more general/versatile framework for nameserver management. If in-band, are there alternatives to a new DNS opcode -- e.g. an addition to NOTIFY (flag, QTYPE, whatever) ? The Security Considerations seem to heavily underrate the threats to which such solution would be exposed. It's not the basic query (pull) paradigm of DNS, it's some kind of 'push' operation, which most likely has considerations beyond those of NOTIFY and UPDATE! Kind regards, Alfred. -- +------------------------+--------------------------------------------+ | TR-Sys Alfred Hoenes | Alfred Hoenes Dipl.-Math., Dipl.-Phys. | | Gerlinger Strasse 12 | Phone: (+49)7156/9635-0, Fax: -18 | | D-71254 Ditzingen | E-Mail: ah@TR-Sys.de | +------------------------+--------------------------------------------+ From slinkydv732@oknabm.ru Wed Feb 24 16:21:45 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6EE0A3A7B04 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 16:21:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -37.875 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-37.875 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HELO_DYNAMIC_HCC=4.295, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2=4.395, HELO_EQ_BR=0.955, HELO_EQ_DSL=1.129, HOST_EQ_BR=1.295, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.931, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Up0dmdV08ua9 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 16:21:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from 201-41-254-91.fnsce703.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br (201-41-254-91.fnsce703.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br [201.41.254.91]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1337D28C1E2 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 16:21:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from 201.41.254.91 by mail.oknabm.ru; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 21:22:29 -0300 Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 21:22:29 -0300 From: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: Low-priced health resort treatment To: Message-ID: <000d01cab5b0$9d623110$6400a8c0@slinkydv732> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-2"; reply-type=original Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal Looking for the lowest prices on pilules and supplements on the web is usually a real problem, but not with our Internet-site! 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Try us now and get boluses or inhalers cheaper! http://tgl41.cufevucoh.cn/ From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Wed Feb 24 17:01:56 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E8C328C295; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 17:01:56 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.497 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.497 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.103, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EMgWFuq0Jfzx; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 17:01:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F2EE28C1E2; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 17:01:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NkS2M-00043r-20 for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Thu, 25 Feb 2010 00:57:06 +0000 Received: from [2001:4f8:3:bb::5] (helo=farside.isc.org) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NkS2J-000438-6I for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 25 Feb 2010 00:57:03 +0000 Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (drugs.dv.isc.org [IPv6:2001:470:1f00:820:214:22ff:fed9:fbdc]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "drugs.dv.isc.org", Issuer "ISC CA" (not verified)) by farside.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52DEDE60B5; Thu, 25 Feb 2010 00:57:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marka@isc.org) Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by drugs.dv.isc.org (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o1P0utV5034379; Thu, 25 Feb 2010 11:56:57 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from marka@drugs.dv.isc.org) Message-Id: <201002250056.o1P0utV5034379@drugs.dv.isc.org> To: Olafur Gudmundsson Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org From: Mark Andrews References: <4B1E3ECD.4050706@ucd.ie> <200912081508.nB8F8KZG011950@drugs.dv.isc.org> <4B83DE05.4090501@nic.cz> <466966160.14132@cnnic.cn> <466991066.24258@cnnic.cn> <4B855CD2.50600@ogud.com> Subject: Re: [dnsext] Redirection work item: semantics and scope In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 24 Feb 2010 12:07:30 CDT." <4B855CD2.50600@ogud.com> Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 11:56:55 +1100 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: In message <4B855CD2.50600@ogud.com>, Olafur Gudmundsson writes: > > cname mapping itself; > > dname mapping descendant; > > bname mapping both itself and its descendant. > > > > the bname can used by both IDN bundle names and other ASCII names. > > > What should the design criteria for Redirection RR type be ? > > In the evaluation of BNAME proposal as a strawman in the the > Redirection space here are some questions to start the discussion > > What can BNAME point to: > any name > only delegations Any name. > Should we allow BNAME chains, or should BNAME point directly at target. BNAME SHOULD not point to other BNAMEs or CNAMEs but this advisary. This fits with RFC 1034's basic requirements. > Can we have BNAME -> DNAME -> BNAME -> CNAME ? > (or some other mix of [BCD]name(s) Yes, but it is not desirable. > What backwards compatability should protocol provide? If the client does not indicate BNAME support it *only* sees the CNAME records in the response. Direct queries for BNAME return BNAME. A zone containing a BNAME record MUST NOT be signed with any of the existing DNSSEC algorithm identifiers. i.e. it will be treated as insecure by all existing validators. Future DNSSEC algorithm identifiers will indicate BNAME awareness, similar to the way NSEC3 awareness is signaled using DNSSEC algorithm identifiers. > Should the protocol provide indicatator of BNAME support? Yes. > Olafur -- Mark Andrews, ISC 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: marka@isc.org From biologist2@pr-imperia.ru Wed Feb 24 18:43:24 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFE0E28C2C2 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 18:43:24 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -36.072 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-36.072 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_DYNAMIC_DHCP=1.398, HELO_DYNAMIC_HCC=4.295, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR=2.426, HELO_EQ_DSL=1.129, HELO_MISMATCH_NET=0.611, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_NONE=0.1, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cFSBb8xpf-0P for ; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 18:43:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from dbec65e45.dslam-172-17-161-243-321-0708-mbo-03.dsl.cantv.net (unknown [190.198.94.69]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9410028C253 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 18:43:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from 190.198.94.69 by mail.pr-imperia.ru; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 20:45:17 -0600 Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 20:45:17 -0600 From: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: Stay healthy for this winter To: Message-ID: <000d01cab5c4$90697bd0$6400a8c0@biologist2> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="UTF-8"; reply-type=original Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal X-Antivirus: avast! 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Try us now and get caplets or inhalers on the best prices! http://nfi07.levuwifub.cn/ From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Thu Feb 25 00:27:50 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23F6D28C2CF; Thu, 25 Feb 2010 00:27:50 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.405 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.405 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-2.534, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_EQ_RU=0.595, HELO_MISMATCH_RU=3.1, MISSING_HEADERS=1.292, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id T4MW8BhU4ewA; Thu, 25 Feb 2010 00:27:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41E3A28C144; Thu, 25 Feb 2010 00:27:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NkYyo-000JkD-Ji for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Thu, 25 Feb 2010 08:21:54 +0000 Received: from [89.188.97.107] (helo=mx.cryptocom.ru) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NkYyl-000Jjg-Py for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 25 Feb 2010 08:21:51 +0000 Received: from [10.51.22.241] (reedcat.lan.cryptocom.ru [10.51.22.241]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx.cryptocom.ru (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F97F46C6B for ; Thu, 25 Feb 2010 11:21:49 +0300 (MSK) Message-ID: <4B86331C.7010603@cryptocom.ru> Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 11:21:48 +0300 From: Basil Dolmatov User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (X11/20090817) MIME-Version: 1.0 CC: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: TCP details Re: [dnsext] Draft: WGLC draft-ietf-dnsext-dns-tcp-requirements References: <201002231124.MAA29080@TR-Sys.de> <4B857D26.3080905@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: Paul Hoffman пишет: > At 2:25 PM -0500 2/24/10, William Allen Simpson wrote: >> Alfred ? wrote: >>> On Mon, 22 Feb 2010 23:53:46 +0000, Paul Vixie wrote: >>> >>>>> On Mon, Feb 22, 2010 at 1:09 PM, Olafur Gudmundsson wrote: >>>>>> Do the members of the working group think this document, >>>>>> that specifies that TCP transport must be supported by all DNS >>>>>> implementation is beneficial? >>>> +1. >>> +1 >>> >> +1 > > +1 +1 > >>>>> Date: Mon, 22 Feb 2010 13:25:22 -0800 >>>>> From: Matthew Dempsky >>>>> >>>>> "all DNS implementations", no; "all *general purpose* DNS >>>>> implementations", yes. >>>> i think this horse is dead. rbldnsd and other non-general-purpose subset >>>> implementations already leave out so many required elements of the protocol, >>>> that adding one more required element that these don't implement, is no big >>>> deal. can we please move on. >>> +1. >>> >>> The only sensical text addition I can imagine to address concerns, >>> might be (because this document aims at being a clarification of >>> STD13 and STD3) : >>> >>> "all DNS implementations that claim conformance to STD 13 [RFC1035]" >>> >>> Is that a compromise wording approachable to general consensus? >>> >> +1 > > +1 > From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Thu Feb 25 04:16:18 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B1443A82D5; Thu, 25 Feb 2010 04:16:18 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.341 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.341 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.846, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IGv4r4XXZVnB; Thu, 25 Feb 2010 04:16:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3847D3A7DD0; Thu, 25 Feb 2010 04:16:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NkcXE-000MLu-Fg for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Thu, 25 Feb 2010 12:09:40 +0000 Received: from [66.92.146.20] (helo=stora.ogud.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NkcXB-000MLJ-ND for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 25 Feb 2010 12:09:38 +0000 Received: from [IPv6:::1] (nyttbox.md.ogud.com [10.20.30.4]) by stora.ogud.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o1PC9UUE094962 for ; Thu, 25 Feb 2010 07:09:30 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from ogud@ogud.com) Message-ID: <4B86687B.3060906@ogud.com> Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 07:09:31 -0500 From: Olafur Gudmundsson User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.1; en-GB; rv:1.9.1.7) Gecko/20100111 Thunderbird/3.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: namedroppers Subject: [dnsext] WGLC: Unknown RR's to Draft standard (rfc3597bis) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.67 on 10.20.30.4 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: Dear Colleagues, This message starts a Working Group last call on draft "Handling of Unknown DNS Resource Record (RR) Types" located at: http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dnsext/draft-ietf-dnsext-rfc3597-bis/ This WGLC will conclude on midnight March 13'th 2010 UTC. This draft is a replacement for RFC3597, and is being advanced as a Draft Standard document. RFC3597 is one of the more significant DNS RFC's, that has enabled more rapid introduction of new types. Support for RFC3597 is quite common in DNS software and the working group conducted an interoperabilty test some time ago and submitted an interoperabilty report as a part of advancing RFC3597 in place. That attempt failed due to "down-ref" issues. This document was issued to take care of the issues identified in RFC3597, and reflect that DNSSEC-bis RFC's now specify the DNSSEC cannonical rules. This document is fully compatible with RFC3597 and does not require any changes in RFC3597 compliant systems. Interoperational report is available at: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-dnsext-interop3597-02 Please send statements that you have reviewed this document and if it raised any issues. 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List-Archive: On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 4:09 AM, Olafur Gudmundsson wrote: > Please send statements that you have reviewed this document and if it raised > any issues. I've read this document and support its adoption. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Thu Feb 25 11:07:39 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6EF3728C240; Thu, 25 Feb 2010 11:07:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.475 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.475 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.427, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id R-FKpq8aBnxr; Thu, 25 Feb 2010 11:07:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 908B428C231; Thu, 25 Feb 2010 11:07:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nkj18-000K4L-NC for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Thu, 25 Feb 2010 19:04:58 +0000 Received: from [192.150.186.11] (helo=fruitcake.ICSI.Berkeley.EDU) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nkj13-000K3f-1K for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 25 Feb 2010 19:04:53 +0000 Received: from [IPv6:::1] (jack.ICSI.Berkeley.EDU [192.150.186.73]) by fruitcake.ICSI.Berkeley.EDU (8.12.11.20060614/8.12.11) with ESMTP id o1PJ4qQa018932; Thu, 25 Feb 2010 11:04:52 -0800 (PST) References: <4B86687B.3060906@ogud.com> In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: Nicholas Weaver From: Nicholas Weaver Subject: Re: [dnsext] WGLC: Unknown RR's to Draft standard (rfc3597bis) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 11:04:52 -0800 To: namedroppers WG X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: Read it, no issues, support adoption On Feb 25, 2010, at 10:40 AM, Matthew Dempsky wrote: > On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 4:09 AM, Olafur Gudmundsson = wrote: >> Please send statements that you have reviewed this document and if it = raised >> any issues. >=20 > I've read this document and support its adoption. >=20 From garrulityp3@sztk.org.ru Thu Feb 25 12:09:23 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA01928C26A for ; Thu, 25 Feb 2010 12:09:23 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -59.87 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-59.87 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, FM_SEX_HELODDDD=10.357, FM_SEX_HOSTDDDD=10.357, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR=2.426, MORE_SEX=1.183, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_SXLIFE=1.07, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ALgc9kDNxDwP for ; Thu, 25 Feb 2010 12:09:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from pc-188-81-104-200.cm.vtr.net (pc-188-81-104-200.cm.vtr.net [200.104.81.188]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72D0928C1EC for ; Thu, 25 Feb 2010 12:09:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from 200.104.81.188 by mail.sztk.org.ru; Thu, 25 Feb 2010 17:11:31 -0400 Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 17:11:31 -0400 From: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: It's the only 100% natural sex pill that has no cardiovascular or physical side effects To: Message-ID: <000d01cab656$b8d15650$6400a8c0@garrulityp3> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="UTF-8"; reply-type=original Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal Increases sexual desire and improves performance & endurance! 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List-Archive: PiBQbGVhc2Ugc2VuZCBzdGF0ZW1lbnRzIHRoYXQgeW91IGhhdmUgcmV2aWV3ZWQgdGhpcyBkb2N1 bWVudCBhbmQgaWYgaXQgDQo+IHJhaXNlZCBhbnkgaXNzdWVzLg0KDQpJIHJldmlld2VkIHRoZSBk b2N1bWVudCwgYW5kIGZvdW5kIG5vIGlzc3Vlcy4NCg0K From dnsext-archive@ietf.org Thu Feb 25 13:42:00 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1E6828C3FB for ; Thu, 25 Feb 2010 13:42:00 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -28.46 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-28.46 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_ALMOST_IP=5.417, FH_HOST_ALMOST_IP=1.889, HELO_DYNAMIC_SPLIT_IP=3.493, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_16=1.526, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_02=0.383, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_2=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_SBL=20, URI_HEX=0.368, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vFgk46WiH60p for ; Thu, 25 Feb 2010 13:41:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from 251.sub-75-235-38.myvzw.com (251.sub-75-235-38.myvzw.com [75.235.38.251]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E41B28C3DE for ; Thu, 25 Feb 2010 13:41:55 -0800 (PST) From: "Authorized Pillstore" To: dnsext-archive@ietf.org Subject: Hello, dnsext-archive, check our 80% Sale MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20100225214158.7E41B28C3DE@core3.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 13:41:55 -0800 (PST)
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From dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Thu Feb 25 13:43:35 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89A9228C427 for ; Thu, 25 Feb 2010 13:43:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -38.46 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-38.46 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_ALMOST_IP=5.417, FH_HOST_ALMOST_IP=1.889, HELO_DYNAMIC_SPLIT_IP=3.493, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_16=1.526, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_02=0.383, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_2=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URI_HEX=0.368, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id e80LavdgLryT for ; Thu, 25 Feb 2010 13:43:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from 251.sub-75-235-38.myvzw.com (251.sub-75-235-38.myvzw.com [75.235.38.251]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D4563A8225 for ; Thu, 25 Feb 2010 13:43:33 -0800 (PST) From: "Authorized Pillstore" To: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: Hello, dnsext-archive, check our 80% Sale MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20100225214333.6D4563A8225@core3.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 13:43:33 -0800 (PST)
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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Thu Feb 25 14:27:25 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 978AE28C166; Thu, 25 Feb 2010 14:27:25 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.522 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.522 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.077, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id V2Ccgc3h9Vlp; Thu, 25 Feb 2010 14:27:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A70728C0D9; Thu, 25 Feb 2010 14:27:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nkm6W-000Evz-TZ for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Thu, 25 Feb 2010 22:22:44 +0000 Received: from [2001:4f8:3:bb::5] (helo=farside.isc.org) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nkm6R-000EuQ-55 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 25 Feb 2010 22:22:39 +0000 Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (drugs.dv.isc.org [IPv6:2001:470:1f00:820:214:22ff:fed9:fbdc]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "drugs.dv.isc.org", Issuer "ISC CA" (not verified)) by farside.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12E2DE606C; Thu, 25 Feb 2010 22:22:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marka@isc.org) Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by drugs.dv.isc.org (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o1PMMZDa020888; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 09:22:35 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from marka@drugs.dv.isc.org) Message-Id: <201002252222.o1PMMZDa020888@drugs.dv.isc.org> To: Olafur Gudmundsson Cc: namedroppers From: Mark Andrews References: <4B86687B.3060906@ogud.com> Subject: Re: [dnsext] WGLC: Unknown RR's to Draft standard (rfc3597bis) In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 25 Feb 2010 07:09:31 CDT." <4B86687B.3060906@ogud.com> Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 09:22:35 +1100 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: 6. Equality Comparison Certain DNS protocols, notably Dynamic Update [RFC2136], require RRs to be compared for equality. Two RRs of the same unknown type are considered equal when their RDATA is bitwise equal. To ensure that the outcome of the comparison is identical whether the RR is known to the server or not, specifications for new RR types MUST NOT specify type-specific comparison rules. This implies that embedded domain names, being included in the overall bitwise comparison, are compared in a case-sensitive manner. As a result, when a new RR type contains one or more embedded domain names, it is possible to have multiple RRs owned by the same name that differ only in the character case of the embedded domain name(s). This is similar to the existing possibility of multiple TXT records differing only in character case, and not expected to cause any problems in practice. This section has definitely resulted in bug reports where domain names are not compared as domain names but are compared as bit strings by UPDATE. Users assume domainnames can be used in a case insensitive maners. Users don't expect record that differ only in case to exist in a RRset. e.g. If you add HIP record that only differs in the case of the rendezvous server from one that already exists there is really no reason why a HIP aware server couldn't silently ignore the add. This leaves you with non-minimal RRsets if they are added to a server that is not aware of the type. This difference however is not a bad thing. Obviously one needs to preserve records that differ only the case of the domain names when loading zone as the zone may have been signed with a type unaware server. A type aware signer however can collapse a RRset where there are records that only differ in case. A validator however would not collapse multiple records that differ only in case. That which is writing the RRset can collapse the RRset. Mark -- Mark Andrews, ISC 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: marka@isc.org From dmailer.ok@ietf.org Thu Feb 25 14:38:02 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55E7E28C48E for ; Thu, 25 Feb 2010 14:38:02 -0800 (PST) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char C2 hex): From: Approved VIAGRA\302\256 Store ; Thu, 25 Feb 2010 14:37:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from 0553esf.com (unknown [201.240.90.195]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id A3EE83A8454 for ; Thu, 25 Feb 2010 14:37:41 -0800 (PST) From: Approved VIAGRA® Store Subject: You have a new personal message To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20100225223743.A3EE83A8454@core3.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 14:37:41 -0800 (PST)
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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Thu Feb 25 16:30:02 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7859C28C438; Thu, 25 Feb 2010 16:30:02 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -97.397 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-97.397 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, CHARSET_FARAWAY_HEADER=3.2, NO_RELAYS=-0.001, TRACKER_ID=2.003, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wGqrjatAmZLi; Thu, 25 Feb 2010 16:30:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62EE328C298; Thu, 25 Feb 2010 16:30:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nko0u-000PVC-3p for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 00:25:04 +0000 Received: from [2001:4f8:3:bb::5] (helo=farside.isc.org) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nko0p-000PUn-Vi for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 00:25:00 +0000 Received: from jmb.jinmei.org (unknown [IPv6:2001:4f8:3:64:217:f2ff:fee0:a91f]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by farside.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D4FFE60B4 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 00:24:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jinmei@isc.org) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 16:24:58 -0800 Message-ID: From: JINMEI Tatuya / =?ISO-2022-JP?B?GyRCP0BMQEMjOkgbKEI=?= To: namedroppers Subject: Re: [dnsext] WGLC: Unknown RR's to Draft standard (rfc3597bis) In-Reply-To: <4B86687B.3060906@ogud.com> References: <4B86687B.3060906@ogud.com> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.14.0 (Africa) Emacs/22.1 Mule/5.0 (SAKAKI) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI 1.14.6 - "Maruoka") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: At Thu, 25 Feb 2010 07:09:31 -0500, Olafur Gudmundsson wrote: > This message starts a Working Group last call on draft "Handling of > Unknown DNS Resource Record (RR) Types" located at: > http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dnsext/draft-ietf-dnsext-rfc3597-bis/ [snip] > Please send statements that you have reviewed this document and if it > raised any issues. I've not (yet) read all of the text, but I have one point that may be helpful to clarify using the opportunity of revising RFC3597. In Section 5, it states: In the "type" field of a master file line, an unknown RR type is represented by the word "TYPE" immediately followed by the decimal RR type number, with no intervening whitespace. In the "class" field, an unknown class is similarly represented as the word "CLASS" immediately followed by the decimal class number. I recently had an opportunity to implement this and noticed that "the decimal RR type number" is a bit ambiguous. That is, it's not clear whether "the decimal number" can contain leading 0's. For example, is this a valid representation of "unknown RR type"? TYPE05300 If it is, what about this? TYPE0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000005300 I checked two independent implementations (nsd's zonec and BIND9 if that matters), and found that both accepted the former but not the latter. More specifically, both implementations allow leading 0's as long as the total number of decimal characters <= 5. I wasn't sure whether that's intentional or not from the code, but made my implementation compatible with these. Admittedly this is a quite minor point, and perhaps no one else cares. If many others in the wg think it's too minor to address, I'm fine with leaving this undefined. But since being clear is generally a good thing (IMO), I think it's worth clarifying using this opportunity. --- JINMEI, Tatuya Internet Systems Consortium, Inc. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Thu Feb 25 20:22:52 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 094F928C4C5; Thu, 25 Feb 2010 20:22:52 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.067 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.067 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.028, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HABEAS_ACCREDITED_SOI=-4.3, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RCVD_IN_BSP_TRUSTED=-4.3, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QAL3YEGDkk6A; Thu, 25 Feb 2010 20:22:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73F1C28C12D; Thu, 25 Feb 2010 20:22:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NkrfG-000Kxp-2T for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 04:18:58 +0000 Received: from [64.57.183.53] (helo=gal.iecc.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NkrfC-000KxU-7Y for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 04:18:54 +0000 Received: (qmail 3670 invoked from network); 26 Feb 2010 04:18:52 -0000 Received: from mail1.iecc.com (64.57.183.56) by mail1.iecc.com with QMQP; 26 Feb 2010 04:18:52 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:cc:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=k1002; olt=johnl@user.iecc.com; bh=la0uAURer8WgvD24GHe/TMt5YWjAg4k/UmswUh3gDzo=; b=McApDfzX6yxu1f+1SQ+u6CcXTF+Mctz8BgdJ/ah10RXORArJYThy8ufjRNydhzub9YjIOhHKy2GYsTHMHNvOTNzh9u+0SHUZKNUC/65xjHWofH59OYL9a+B1XlpT+2i/e74UyFfXDdxI7K+oAbUOPHhYnwczH9/4ODtOrBW6Zxo= Date: 26 Feb 2010 04:18:52 -0000 Message-ID: <20100226041852.24188.qmail@simone.iecc.com> From: John Levine To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] WGLC: Unknown RR's to Draft standard (rfc3597bis) In-Reply-To: <4B86687B.3060906@ogud.com> Organization: Cc: ogud@ogud.com X-Headerized: yes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: I've reviewed the draft and it looks good to me. R's, John From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Thu Feb 25 21:25:50 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 918F328C4F0; Thu, 25 Feb 2010 21:25:50 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.127 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.127 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id B+P3J+qrfMuS; Thu, 25 Feb 2010 21:25:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B78F28C120; Thu, 25 Feb 2010 21:25:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nkseq-0001GU-Pf for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 05:22:36 +0000 Received: from [209.85.223.188] (helo=mail-iw0-f188.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nksen-0001Fx-Sg for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 05:22:34 +0000 Received: by iwn26 with SMTP id 26so1954370iwn.9 for ; Thu, 25 Feb 2010 21:22:33 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to :references:from:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:to:cc :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=GrkVd6cwbdx13uuJll/kvv1W3j2VcPCG06rPqGZDAgw=; b=LL29Pzj8Z3ipRc9HJhcbVZ1CLU3cRQgX6Y9N+QniYsaqRSnfDtNsLBT4DQfd28Lo6L eCuAGD9JaiLPGMLqObTJ8dy0CExaBFst7B2t9pxH6CK+IXBooKS7GRrVTltaDUrmmy4Y Vm/T4aLv7JfVdY9hJJ7DRCVsKrf3OE891uyJ0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=XiJN1A3mX4kwaYIlEIO8pPKrqTbh+WuU+iIjPwZWOCO4f6DP09wvs5pUjSNFe304va ij9mqLISNgaPgC7plBPb1LY3H+BFinMW31OteUbu1F/fqPQZzH9wuc+EGu3Sv9mwlhuB F2AgFwfRnHxk//t1HQk5dESVTveidyVHmZW5U= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.231.153.1 with SMTP id i1mr1071392ibw.35.1267161744487; Thu, 25 Feb 2010 21:22:24 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <4B86687B.3060906@ogud.com> References: <4B86687B.3060906@ogud.com> From: Brian Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 00:22:04 -0500 X-Google-Sender-Auth: ded1616f24a483f0 Message-ID: <5e93e9b1002252122w361dbef4oe28b093c4fb20cd@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [dnsext] WGLC: Unknown RR's to Draft standard (rfc3597bis) To: Olafur Gudmundsson Cc: namedroppers Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: I have reviewed this draft and approve of its adoption. -brian On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 7:09 AM, Olafur Gudmundsson wrote: > > > Dear Colleagues, > > This message starts a Working Group last call on draft "Handling of Unkno= wn > DNS Resource Record (RR) Types" located at: > http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dnsext/draft-ietf-dnsext-rfc3597-bis/ > > This WGLC will conclude on midnight March 13'th 2010 UTC. > > This draft is a replacement for RFC3597, and is being advanced as > a Draft Standard document. RFC3597 is one of the more significant > DNS RFC's, that has enabled more rapid introduction of new types. > Support for RFC3597 is quite common in DNS software and the working > group conducted an interoperabilty test some time ago and submitted an > interoperabilty report as a part of advancing RFC3597 in place. That > attempt failed due to "down-ref" issues. > > This document was issued to take care of the issues identified in > RFC3597, and reflect that DNSSEC-bis RFC's now specify the DNSSEC > cannonical rules. > > This document is fully compatible with RFC3597 and does not require > any changes in RFC3597 compliant systems. > Interoperational report is available at: > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-dnsext-interop3597-02 > > Please send statements that you have reviewed this document and if it rai= sed > any issues. > > =C2=A0 =C2=A0Olafur and Andrew > > > > > > From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Thu Feb 25 22:57:26 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8AA9328C517; Thu, 25 Feb 2010 22:57:26 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, NO_RELAYS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id S8eiFM96gscD; Thu, 25 Feb 2010 22:57:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFDE328C512; Thu, 25 Feb 2010 22:57:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nku3z-000AOY-9y for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 06:52:39 +0000 Received: from [2001:7b8:206:1::1] (helo=open.nlnetlabs.nl) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nku3v-000AN5-17 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 06:52:35 +0000 Received: from [IPv6:2002:525f:8490::226:bbff:fe0e:7cc7] ([IPv6:2002:525f:8490:0:226:bbff:fe0e:7cc7]) (authenticated bits=0) by open.nlnetlabs.nl (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o1Q6qGoG007047 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Fri, 26 Feb 2010 07:52:18 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from olaf@NLnetLabs.nl) Subject: Re: [dnsext] WGLC: Unknown RR's to Draft standard (rfc3597bis) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Olaf Kolkman In-Reply-To: <201002252222.o1PMMZDa020888@drugs.dv.isc.org> Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 07:52:16 +0100 Cc: Olafur Gudmundsson , namedroppers Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <31D7AE4F-9BDD-4989-B9B3-85E6DF0CA6EA@NLnetLabs.nl> References: <4B86687B.3060906@ogud.com> <201002252222.o1PMMZDa020888@drugs.dv.isc.org> To: Mark Andrews X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.3 (open.nlnetlabs.nl [IPv6:2001:7b8:206:1::1]); Fri, 26 Feb 2010 07:52:18 +0100 (CET) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On Feb 25, 2010, at 11:22 PM, Mark Andrews wrote: >=20 > 6. Equality Comparison >=20 > Certain DNS protocols, notably Dynamic Update [RFC2136], require RRs > to be compared for equality. Two RRs of the same unknown type are > considered equal when their RDATA is bitwise equal. To ensure that > the outcome of the comparison is identical whether the RR is known = to > the server or not, specifications for new RR types MUST NOT specify > type-specific comparison rules. >=20 > This implies that embedded domain names, being included in the > overall bitwise comparison, are compared in a case-sensitive manner. >=20 > As a result, when a new RR type contains one or more embedded domain > names, it is possible to have multiple RRs owned by the same name > that differ only in the character case of the embedded domain > name(s). This is similar to the existing possibility of multiple = TXT > records differing only in character case, and not expected to cause > any problems in practice. >=20 > This section has definitely resulted in bug reports where domain > names are not compared as domain names but are compared as bit > strings by UPDATE. >=20 > Users assume domainnames can be used in a case insensitive maners. > Users don't expect record that differ only in case to exist in a > RRset. >=20 > e.g. >=20 > If you add HIP record that only differs in the case of the=20 > rendezvous server from one that already exists there is really > no reason why a HIP aware server couldn't silently ignore the > add. >=20 > This leaves you with non-minimal RRsets if they are added to a > server that is not aware of the type. This difference however > is not a bad thing. >=20 > Obviously one needs to preserve records that differ only the case > of the domain names when loading zone as the zone may have been > signed with a type unaware server. A type aware signer however > can collapse a RRset where there are records that only differ in > case. But that would be erroneous behavior because those new RRs MUST NOT = specify type-specific comparison rules. (Correct?) > A validator however would not collapse multiple records that > differ only in case. A validator however MUST not collapse multiple records if its aware of = type. Begs the question whether the RR type specifications with domainnames in = them should have been explicit and if there are types out there that do = specify case-insensitive comparison? But more importantly, have interoperable implementations been found = (which is an indication that the spec is clear), I do not see that in = the interoperability report. (I have not checked the canonicalization = routines in Net::DNS before writing this, but I wouldn't be surprised if = there would be a bug or two lurking, caused by oversight not by clarity = in the specs). --Olaf ________________________________________________________=20 Olaf M. Kolkman NLnet Labs Science Park 140,=20 http://www.nlnetlabs.nl/ 1098 XG Amsterdam From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Fri Feb 26 02:55:55 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E6C628C16D; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 02:55:55 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -99.873 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-99.873 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uL0epuQyKRfW; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 02:55:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A9EA28C166; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 02:55:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NkxmN-000AKP-VM for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 10:50:43 +0000 Received: from [74.125.82.52] (helo=mail-ww0-f52.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NkxmL-000AJX-Pl for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 10:50:41 +0000 Received: by wwe15 with SMTP id 15so1902544wwe.11 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 02:50:40 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to :references:from:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:to :content-type; bh=PaVbZuMW1kvzlyVEqJsYdaIlTXvNqRfzdftR4MTb+nw=; b=QOv6p3U+pxOcwhviNHifJtUs4uNTghb4kupea6nLWJkL6/nX8qWIQPMWcmJKI5pD6m wUIEB08K00FV+0sNOYNcgFyKAt5Xyt9z0rDiEHCr9A8dfCCfZmOL0pkH3IiDaRmRoQnr hO2mc3XPmgp37j9nJ/d4P0fdx/XAu8A86hrIE= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:to:content-type; b=fMXE+dmwZ+VGg5treq67cNuYeEByGYG6+2OJBmaP7FD6ukb/tqdCNtEavIVjUQ9CuO Sdb54KZosOzKu+4NoOD7YFnRhO1MCAIItlSGHLYEhON6K9til3ZCXqAkfTUbf+v1e8D/ mApCVHXQsY9hWP82wOHcCwuCQ6dV1biMgWxcE= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.87.66 with SMTP id x44mr248951wee.96.1267181440178; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 02:50:40 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <31D7AE4F-9BDD-4989-B9B3-85E6DF0CA6EA@NLnetLabs.nl> References: <4B86687B.3060906@ogud.com> <201002252222.o1PMMZDa020888@drugs.dv.isc.org> <31D7AE4F-9BDD-4989-B9B3-85E6DF0CA6EA@NLnetLabs.nl> From: Dick Franks Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 10:50:20 +0000 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 07adbc51f90d88cd Message-ID: Subject: Re: [dnsext] WGLC: Unknown RR's to Draft standard (rfc3597bis) To: namedroppers Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: Clarification needed at para 2 of section 4. | 4. Name Compression = | To avoid such corruption, servers MUST NOT compress domain names | embedded in the RDATA of types that are class-specific or not well- | known. This requirement was stated in [RFC1123] without defining the | term "well-known"; it is hereby specified that only the RR types | defined in [RFC1035] are to be considered "well-known". Does this mean "all RR types defined in RFC1035", or the much smaller list defined in RFC1035 3.3 para 1? Propose revised wording: ... hereby specified that all RR types defined in [RFC1035] are eligible for compression. --Dick Franks From info@webmaster.com Fri Feb 26 02:57:37 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 082603A8738 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 02:57:37 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 3.5 X-Spam-Level: *** X-Spam-Status: No, score=3.5 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FR58gOGutCdt for ; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 02:57:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from bart.mdp.edu.ar (bart.mdp.edu.ar [200.0.182.2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6ACC3A8742 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 02:57:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from bart.mdp.edu.ar (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by bart.mdp.edu.ar (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1094910A6228; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 07:59:47 -0300 (ART) Received: by bart.mdp.edu.ar (Postfix, from userid 1002) id EEFBA10A6229; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 07:59:46 -0300 (ART) Received: from pino.mdp.edu.ar (pino.mdp.edu.ar [200.0.182.57]) by bart.mdp.edu.ar (Postfix) with ESMTP id A461210A6228; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 07:59:46 -0300 (ART) Received: from 41.138.190.144 (SquirrelMail authenticated user mbarana@mdp.edu.ar) by pino.mdp.edu.ar with HTTP; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 07:54:34 -0300 (ART) Message-ID: <6f5ab452361b29b20fc75d97c0ed8599.squirrel@pino.mdp.edu.ar> Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 07:54:34 -0300 (ART) Subject: Confirma Tu Cuenta Webmail From: "Webmaster Upgrading Department" Reply-To: customercarewebdept46@hotmail.com User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.15 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Importance: Normal To: undisclosed-recipients:; X-AV-Checked: ClamAV using ClamSMTP Estimado suscriptor, Debido a las quejas de los usuarios de spam e-mail a nuestro sistema de correo web, nuestra investigacin muestra que la gestin se ha comprometido a su correo electrnico y se utiliza para enviar mensajes de spam en nuestro sistema de correo web. 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XTension del servicio de correo web Correo electrnico:customercarewebdept46@hotmail.com From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Fri Feb 26 04:04:55 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10B1B28C192; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 04:04:55 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.445 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.445 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.683, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, RCVD_NUMERIC_HELO=2.067, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bvTpAjj4Bt-0; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 04:04:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1974028C182; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 04:04:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nkytn-000KNf-VD for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 12:02:27 +0000 Received: from [144.254.224.140] (helo=ams-iport-1.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nkytj-000KN2-HR for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 12:02:23 +0000 Authentication-Results: ams-iport-1.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-Files: PGP.sig : 186 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Au8AAIBHh0uQ/uCWe2dsb2JhbACbEBUBARYkBhyjBZg1hHkE X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.49,546,1262563200"; d="sig'?scan'208";a="57534457" Received: from ams-core-1.cisco.com ([144.254.224.150]) by ams-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 26 Feb 2010 12:02:21 +0000 Received: from 79.138.202.208.bredband.tre.se (dhcp-10-55-85-186.cisco.com [10.55.85.186]) by ams-core-1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o1QC2JW6020334; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 12:02:20 GMT Subject: Re: [dnsext] WGLC: Unknown RR's to Draft standard (rfc3597bis) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1; boundary="Apple-Mail-18--1031754477" From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Patrik_F=E4ltstr=F6m?= In-Reply-To: <4B86687B.3060906@ogud.com> Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 13:02:17 +0100 Cc: namedroppers Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <4E4238C8-2CB0-4A66-9F73-7E4F5372F9EB@cisco.com> References: <4B86687B.3060906@ogud.com> To: Olafur Gudmundsson X-Pgp-Agent: GPGMail 1.2.3 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --Apple-Mail-18--1031754477 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On 25 feb 2010, at 13.09, Olafur Gudmundsson wrote: > Please send statements that you have reviewed this document and if it = raised any issues. I have read the document, and have the following comment: At least in one place in the document where there are statements about = case (in)sensitive comparisons, I would like either a reference to, or = explicit copying of text from, RFC 1034, section 3.1: > By convention, domain names can be stored with arbitrary case, but > domain name comparisons for all present domain functions are done in a > case-insensitive manner, assuming an ASCII character set, and a high > order zero bit. The important part is "...assuming an ASCII character set, and a high = order zero bit...". Patrik --Apple-Mail-18--1031754477 content-type: application/pgp-signature; x-mac-type=70674453; name=PGP.sig content-description: This is a digitally signed message part content-disposition: inline; filename=PGP.sig content-transfer-encoding: 7bit -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.8 (Darwin) iD8DBQFLh7hJvHlR2X0luNwRAiPtAJ9U0Tmo/Hv2334h9SsBbXSmoTPyQACgr2RK 0l8Az0KiTOJ4zpvrDppecAg= =ppsc -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail-18--1031754477-- From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Fri Feb 26 04:52:14 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CEF5128C145; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 04:52:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.048 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.048 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cZdmpKj5Fard; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 04:52:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D785A28C128; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 04:52:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nkzdd-000PyV-Jv for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 12:49:49 +0000 Received: from [83.145.227.89] (helo=gusev.araneus.fi) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NkzdY-000Pxs-Uw for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 12:49:45 +0000 Received: from guava.gson.org (guava.gson.org [83.145.227.105]) by gusev.araneus.fi (Postfix) with ESMTP id BEF6791C09; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 14:50:01 +0200 (EET) Received: by guava.gson.org (Postfix, from userid 101) id 677F375EAD; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 14:49:41 +0200 (EET) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <19335.50021.41912.610463@guava.gson.org> Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 14:49:41 +0200 To: Mark Andrews Cc: namedroppers Subject: Re: [dnsext] WGLC: Unknown RR's to Draft standard (rfc3597bis) In-Reply-To: <201002252222.o1PMMZDa020888@drugs.dv.isc.org> References: <4B86687B.3060906@ogud.com> <201002252222.o1PMMZDa020888@drugs.dv.isc.org> X-Mailer: VM 8.0.14 under 21.4.1 (i386--netbsdelf) From: Andreas Gustafsson Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: Mark, You wrote: > 6. Equality Comparison > > Certain DNS protocols, notably Dynamic Update [RFC2136], require RRs > to be compared for equality. Two RRs of the same unknown type are > considered equal when their RDATA is bitwise equal. To ensure that > the outcome of the comparison is identical whether the RR is known to > the server or not, specifications for new RR types MUST NOT specify > type-specific comparison rules. > > This implies that embedded domain names, being included in the > overall bitwise comparison, are compared in a case-sensitive manner. > > As a result, when a new RR type contains one or more embedded domain > names, it is possible to have multiple RRs owned by the same name > that differ only in the character case of the embedded domain > name(s). This is similar to the existing possibility of multiple TXT > records differing only in character case, and not expected to cause > any problems in practice. > > This section has definitely resulted in bug reports where domain > names are not compared as domain names but are compared as bit > strings by UPDATE. Do you know of any specific operational or interoperability problems underlying these bug reports, or are they just reporting behavior that users find unexpected or confusing? > Users assume domainnames can be used in a case insensitive maners. > Users don't expect record that differ only in case to exist in a > RRset. > > e.g. > > If you add HIP record that only differs in the case of the > rendezvous server from one that already exists there is really > no reason why a HIP aware server couldn't silently ignore the > add. It seems to me that RFC3597 and the current draft already allow a HIP aware server to ignore an add of a HIP record that only differs in character case: for a HIP aware server, the section 6 rules about comparing unknown types do not apply, because to that server, it's not an unknown type. > This leaves you with non-minimal RRsets if they are added to a > server that is not aware of the type. This difference however > is not a bad thing. > > Obviously one needs to preserve records that differ only the case > of the domain names when loading zone as the zone may have been > signed with a type unaware server. A type aware signer however > can collapse a RRset where there are records that only differ in > case. A validator however would not collapse multiple records that > differ only in case. I agree, I think... If clarification is needed regarding the DNSSEC implications of coalescing duplicate RRs, it should probably be done as an update to the parts of the DNSSEC specification that superseded RFC3597 section 7. I'm not sure how to interpret your message in terms of the process; are you opposing the publication of the draft as an RFC, requesting changes to the draft, (if so, please suggest specific text), or just making some general observations? -- Andreas Gustafsson, gson@araneus.fi From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Fri Feb 26 05:16:17 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89E0C28C128; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 05:16:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.048 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.048 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jf32ggNTxkjv; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 05:16:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0112928C1A2; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 05:16:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nkzy5-0002sY-Ga for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 13:10:57 +0000 Received: from [83.145.227.89] (helo=gusev.araneus.fi) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nkzxz-0002rq-IU for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 13:10:52 +0000 Received: from guava.gson.org (guava.gson.org [83.145.227.105]) by gusev.araneus.fi (Postfix) with ESMTP id D820991C09; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 15:11:07 +0200 (EET) Received: by guava.gson.org (Postfix, from userid 101) id 24A7375EAD; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 15:10:48 +0200 (EET) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <19335.51287.972347.417045@guava.gson.org> Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 15:10:47 +0200 To: JINMEI Tatuya / =?ISO-2022-JP?B?GyRCP0BMQEMjOkgbKEI=?= Cc: namedroppers Subject: Re: [dnsext] WGLC: Unknown RR's to Draft standard (rfc3597bis) In-Reply-To: References: <4B86687B.3060906@ogud.com> X-Mailer: VM 8.0.14 under 21.4.1 (i386--netbsdelf) From: Andreas Gustafsson Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: JINMEI Tatuya wrote: > In Section 5, it states: > > In the "type" field of a master file line, an unknown RR type is > represented by the word "TYPE" immediately followed by the decimal RR > type number, with no intervening whitespace. In the "class" field, > an unknown class is similarly represented as the word "CLASS" > immediately followed by the decimal class number. > > I recently had an opportunity to implement this and noticed that "the > decimal RR type number" is a bit ambiguous. That is, it's not clear > whether "the decimal number" can contain leading 0's. For example, is > this a valid representation of "unknown RR type"? > > TYPE05300 > > If it is, what about this? > > TYPE0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000005300 > > I checked two independent implementations (nsd's zonec and BIND9 if > that matters), and found that both accepted the former but not the > latter. More specifically, both implementations allow leading 0's as > long as the total number of decimal characters <= 5. I wasn't sure > whether that's intentional or not from the code, but made my > implementation compatible with these. > > Admittedly this is a quite minor point, and perhaps no one else cares. > If many others in the wg think it's too minor to address, I'm fine > with leaving this undefined. But since being clear is generally a > good thing (IMO), I think it's worth clarifying using this > opportunity. This is a good point, but as you say, a minor one. The principle of "be conservative in what you send, and liberal in what you accept" certainly applies here. In general, I don't see other IETF documents explicitly addressing this issue. To pick a random example, defining the DNSKEY RR presentation format, RFC4034 says "The Flag field MUST be represented as an unsigned decimal integer" without explicitly discussing whether or not redundant leading zeros are allowed. -- Andreas Gustafsson, gson@araneus.fi From letitiax58@a-snab.ru Fri Feb 26 05:44:52 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B796A3A87A4; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 05:44:52 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -69.062 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-69.062 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.049, BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, FUZZY_VPILL=0.687, HELO_DYNAMIC_HCC=4.295, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2=4.395, HELO_EQ_DSL=1.129, HELO_EQ_PL=1.135, HOST_EQ_PL=1.95, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.931, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bS7A1EjD8Oo4; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 05:44:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from 87-205-128-220.adsl.inetia.pl (87-205-128-220.adsl.inetia.pl [87.205.128.220]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 889FA3A87A2; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 05:44:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from 87.205.128.220 by MX03.NICMAIL.ru; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 14:47:09 +0100 Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 14:47:09 +0100 From: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: ViaGrow is the only 100% herbal formula that works even with alcohol To: Message-ID: <000d01cab6ea$30f4c2f0$6400a8c0@letitiax58> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="us-ascii"; reply-type=original Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal Gain amazing erectile length without limpness! 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Become more confident knowing that you can reach any womans G-SPOT. http://excision4683.spaces.live.com From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Fri Feb 26 06:18:07 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93C8B3A862F; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 06:18:07 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.549 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.549 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.151, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_23=0.6, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, NO_RELAYS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2znXJ4-ICzDf; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 06:18:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67C033A82A1; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 06:18:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nl0xL-000DuB-IN for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 14:14:15 +0000 Received: from [2001:1488:800:400::400] (helo=mail.nic.cz) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nl0xG-000Dsz-1A for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 14:14:10 +0000 Received: from [IPv6:2001:1488:ac14:1400:224:e8ff:fea9:f617] (unknown [IPv6:2001:1488:ac14:1400:224:e8ff:fea9:f617]) by mail.nic.cz (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id F3406734350 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 15:14:02 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <4B87D72A.5030206@nic.cz> Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 15:14:02 +0100 From: =?UTF-8?B?T25kxZllaiBTdXLDvQ==?= User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.9.1.7) Gecko/20100111 Lightning/1.0b1 Thunderbird/3.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "namedroppers@ops.ietf.org" Subject: [dnsext] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-kerr-ixfr-only-01 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: Hi, we have incorporated all comments on -00. Thanks to Mark, Alfred, Wouter, Joao, Joe and Jelte for those comments. Ondrej -------- Original Message -------- Subject: New Version Notification for draft-kerr-ixfr-only-01 Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 05:37:37 -0800 (PST) From: IETF I-D Submission Tool To: ondrej.sury@nic.cz CC: shane@isc.org A new version of I-D, draft-kerr-ixfr-only-01.txt has been successfuly submitted by Ondrej Sury and posted to the IETF repository. Filename: draft-kerr-ixfr-only Revision: 01 Title: IXFR-ONLY to Prevent IXFR Fallback to AXFR Creation_date: 2010-02-26 WG ID: Independent Submission Number_of_pages: 6 Abstract: This documents proposes a new QTYPE (Query pseudo RRtype) for the Domain Name System (DNS). IXFR-ONLY is a variant of IXFR (RFC 1995) that allows an authoritative server to incrementally update zone content from another (primary) server without falling back from IXFR to AXFR. This way, alternate peers can be contacted more quickly and convergence of zone content may be achieved much faster in important, resilient operational scenarios. The IETF Secretariat. -- Ondřej Surý vedoucí výzkumu/R&D manager ------------------------------------------- CZ.NIC, z.s.p.o. -- Laboratoře CZ.NIC Americka 23, 120 00 Praha 2, Czech Republic mailto:ondrej.sury@nic.cz http://nic.cz/ tel:+420.222745110 fax:+420.222745112 ------------------------------------------- From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Fri Feb 26 06:25:34 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 425393A829F; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 06:25:34 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 3.326 X-Spam-Level: *** X-Spam-Status: No, score=3.326 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.884, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_EQ_BLUEYON=1.4, HELO_MISMATCH_UK=1.749, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, MIME_BASE64_BLANKS=0.041, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1mWOUmEUfkdt; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 06:25:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD8D728C17B; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 06:25:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nl15r-000FVj-EO for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 14:23:03 +0000 Received: from [195.188.213.8] (helo=smtp-out5.blueyonder.co.uk) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nl15k-000FUH-UK for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 14:22:57 +0000 Received: from [172.23.170.140] (helo=anti-virus02-07) by smtp-out5.blueyonder.co.uk with smtp (Exim 4.52) id 1Nl15g-0000c4-DR; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 14:22:52 +0000 Received: from [92.238.99.235] (helo=GeorgeLaptop) by asmtp-out5.blueyonder.co.uk with esmtpa (Exim 4.52) id 1Nl15f-0006pE-Fe; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 14:22:51 +0000 Message-ID: <4C0156A285A74529B314FA28C64D1B4E@localhost> From: "George Barwood" To: =?utf-8?B?SklOTUVJIFRhdHV5YSAvIOelnuaYjumBlOWTiQ==?= , "Andreas Gustafsson" Cc: "namedroppers" References: <4B86687B.3060906@ogud.com> <19335.51287.972347.417045@guava.gson.org> Subject: Re: [dnsext] WGLC: Unknown RR's to Draft standard (rfc3597bis) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 14:22:48 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5843 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: DQotLS0tLSBPcmlnaW5hbCBNZXNzYWdlIC0tLS0tIA0KRnJvbTogIkFuZHJlYXMgR3VzdGFmc3Nv biIgPGdzb25AYXJhbmV1cy5maT4NClRvOiAiSklOTUVJIFRhdHV5YSAvIOelnuaYjumBlOWTiSIg PGppbm1laUBpc2Mub3JnPg0KQ2M6ICJuYW1lZHJvcHBlcnMiIDxuYW1lZHJvcHBlcnNAb3BzLmll dGYub3JnPg0KU2VudDogRnJpZGF5LCBGZWJydWFyeSAyNiwgMjAxMCAxOjEwIFBNDQpTdWJqZWN0 OiBSZTogW2Ruc2V4dF0gV0dMQzogVW5rbm93biBSUidzIHRvIERyYWZ0IHN0YW5kYXJkIChyZmMz NTk3YmlzKQ0KDQoNCj4gSklOTUVJIFRhdHV5YSB3cm90ZToNCj4+IEluIFNlY3Rpb24gNSwgaXQg c3RhdGVzOg0KPj4gDQo+PiAgICBJbiB0aGUgInR5cGUiIGZpZWxkIG9mIGEgbWFzdGVyIGZpbGUg bGluZSwgYW4gdW5rbm93biBSUiB0eXBlIGlzDQo+PiAgICByZXByZXNlbnRlZCBieSB0aGUgd29y ZCAiVFlQRSIgaW1tZWRpYXRlbHkgZm9sbG93ZWQgYnkgdGhlIGRlY2ltYWwgUlINCj4+ICAgIHR5 cGUgbnVtYmVyLCB3aXRoIG5vIGludGVydmVuaW5nIHdoaXRlc3BhY2UuICBJbiB0aGUgImNsYXNz IiBmaWVsZCwNCj4+ICAgIGFuIHVua25vd24gY2xhc3MgaXMgc2ltaWxhcmx5IHJlcHJlc2VudGVk IGFzIHRoZSB3b3JkICJDTEFTUyINCj4+ICAgIGltbWVkaWF0ZWx5IGZvbGxvd2VkIGJ5IHRoZSBk ZWNpbWFsIGNsYXNzIG51bWJlci4NCj4+IA0KPj4gSSByZWNlbnRseSBoYWQgYW4gb3Bwb3J0dW5p dHkgdG8gaW1wbGVtZW50IHRoaXMgYW5kIG5vdGljZWQgdGhhdCAidGhlDQo+PiBkZWNpbWFsIFJS IHR5cGUgbnVtYmVyIiBpcyBhIGJpdCBhbWJpZ3VvdXMuICBUaGF0IGlzLCBpdCdzIG5vdCBjbGVh cg0KPj4gd2hldGhlciAidGhlIGRlY2ltYWwgbnVtYmVyIiBjYW4gY29udGFpbiBsZWFkaW5nIDAn cy4gIEZvciBleGFtcGxlLCBpcw0KPj4gdGhpcyBhIHZhbGlkIHJlcHJlc2VudGF0aW9uIG9mICJ1 bmtub3duIFJSIHR5cGUiPw0KPj4gDQo+PiBUWVBFMDUzMDANCj4+IA0KPj4gSWYgaXQgaXMsIHdo YXQgYWJvdXQgdGhpcz8NCj4+IA0KPj4gVFlQRTAwMDAwMDAwMDAwMDAwMDAwMDAwMDAwMDAwMDAw MDAwMDAwMDAwMDAwMDAwMDAwMDAwMDAwMDAwMDUzMDANCj4+IA0KPj4gSSBjaGVja2VkIHR3byBp bmRlcGVuZGVudCBpbXBsZW1lbnRhdGlvbnMgKG5zZCdzIHpvbmVjIGFuZCBCSU5EOSBpZg0KPj4g dGhhdCBtYXR0ZXJzKSwgYW5kIGZvdW5kIHRoYXQgYm90aCBhY2NlcHRlZCB0aGUgZm9ybWVyIGJ1 dCBub3QgdGhlDQo+PiBsYXR0ZXIuICBNb3JlIHNwZWNpZmljYWxseSwgYm90aCBpbXBsZW1lbnRh dGlvbnMgYWxsb3cgbGVhZGluZyAwJ3MgYXMNCj4+IGxvbmcgYXMgdGhlIHRvdGFsIG51bWJlciBv ZiBkZWNpbWFsIGNoYXJhY3RlcnMgPD0gNS4gIEkgd2Fzbid0IHN1cmUNCj4+IHdoZXRoZXIgdGhh dCdzIGludGVudGlvbmFsIG9yIG5vdCBmcm9tIHRoZSBjb2RlLCBidXQgbWFkZSBteQ0KPj4gaW1w bGVtZW50YXRpb24gY29tcGF0aWJsZSB3aXRoIHRoZXNlLg0KPj4gDQo+PiBBZG1pdHRlZGx5IHRo aXMgaXMgYSBxdWl0ZSBtaW5vciBwb2ludCwgYW5kIHBlcmhhcHMgbm8gb25lIGVsc2UgY2FyZXMu DQo+PiBJZiBtYW55IG90aGVycyBpbiB0aGUgd2cgdGhpbmsgaXQncyB0b28gbWlub3IgdG8gYWRk cmVzcywgSSdtIGZpbmUNCj4+IHdpdGggbGVhdmluZyB0aGlzIHVuZGVmaW5lZC4gIEJ1dCBzaW5j ZSBiZWluZyBjbGVhciBpcyBnZW5lcmFsbHkgYQ0KPj4gZ29vZCB0aGluZyAoSU1PKSwgSSB0aGlu ayBpdCdzIHdvcnRoIGNsYXJpZnlpbmcgdXNpbmcgdGhpcw0KPj4gb3Bwb3J0dW5pdHkuDQo+IA0K PiBUaGlzIGlzIGEgZ29vZCBwb2ludCwgYnV0IGFzIHlvdSBzYXksIGEgbWlub3Igb25lLiAgVGhl IHByaW5jaXBsZSBvZg0KPiAiYmUgY29uc2VydmF0aXZlIGluIHdoYXQgeW91IHNlbmQsIGFuZCBs aWJlcmFsIGluIHdoYXQgeW91IGFjY2VwdCINCj4gY2VydGFpbmx5IGFwcGxpZXMgaGVyZS4NCj4g DQo+IEluIGdlbmVyYWwsIEkgZG9uJ3Qgc2VlIG90aGVyIElFVEYgZG9jdW1lbnRzIGV4cGxpY2l0 bHkgYWRkcmVzc2luZw0KPiB0aGlzIGlzc3VlLiAgVG8gcGljayBhIHJhbmRvbSBleGFtcGxlLCBk ZWZpbmluZyB0aGUgRE5TS0VZIFJSDQo+IHByZXNlbnRhdGlvbiBmb3JtYXQsIFJGQzQwMzQgc2F5 cyAiVGhlIEZsYWcgZmllbGQgTVVTVCBiZSByZXByZXNlbnRlZA0KPiBhcyBhbiB1bnNpZ25lZCBk ZWNpbWFsIGludGVnZXIiIHdpdGhvdXQgZXhwbGljaXRseSBkaXNjdXNzaW5nIHdoZXRoZXINCj4g b3Igbm90IHJlZHVuZGFudCBsZWFkaW5nIHplcm9zIGFyZSBhbGxvd2VkLg0KDQpJIGhhdmUgYWx3 YXlzIHVuZGVyc3Rvb2QgdGhhdCBsZWFkaW5nIHplcm9lcyBhcmUgbm90IHVzZWQNCndoZW4gd3Jp dGluZyBhIGRlY2ltYWwgaW50ZWdlciAodW5sZXNzIHNvbWUgZml4ZWQgZm9ybWF0IGFwcGxpZXMp Lg0KSSB0aGluayB0aGF0IGlzIGltcGxpY2l0LCBhbmQgZG9lc24ndCBuZWVkIGNsYXJpZmljYXRp b24gaGVyZS4NCg0KQW5vdGhlciBleGFtcGxlIHdvdWxkIGJlIHRoZSBUVEwgaW4gYSBtYXN0ZXIg ZmlsZS4NCklmIHRoaXMgaXMgdG8gYmUgY2xhcmlmaWVkLCBpdCBzaG91bGQgYXBwbHkgZ2VuZXJh bGx5IHRvIGRlY2ltYWwgaW50ZWdlcnMNCmluIG1hc3RlciBmaWxlcywgbm90IGp1c3QgdGhpcyBj YXNlLCBzbyB0aGlzIGRvY3VtZW50IGlzIG5vdCB0aGUgcGxhY2UgSU1PLg0KDQpHZW9yZ2UgQmFy d29vZA0KDQo+IC0tIA0KPiBBbmRyZWFzIEd1c3RhZnNzb24sIGdzb25AYXJhbmV1cy5maQ0KPg== From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Fri Feb 26 06:29:43 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1DFBB28C1F0; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 06:29:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.048 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.048 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id I0uo0mVDKDh5; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 06:29:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E09C928C1E3; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 06:29:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nl19y-000G49-E3 for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 14:27:18 +0000 Received: from [83.145.227.89] (helo=gusev.araneus.fi) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nl19s-000G39-62 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 14:27:12 +0000 Received: from guava.gson.org (guava.gson.org [83.145.227.105]) by gusev.araneus.fi (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74F5091C09; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 16:27:29 +0200 (EET) Received: by guava.gson.org (Postfix, from userid 101) id 672DF75EAD; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 16:27:10 +0200 (EET) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <19335.55869.944167.868445@guava.gson.org> Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 16:27:09 +0200 To: Olaf Kolkman Cc: Mark Andrews , namedroppers Subject: Re: [dnsext] WGLC: Unknown RR's to Draft standard (rfc3597bis) In-Reply-To: <31D7AE4F-9BDD-4989-B9B3-85E6DF0CA6EA@NLnetLabs.nl> References: <4B86687B.3060906@ogud.com> <201002252222.o1PMMZDa020888@drugs.dv.isc.org> <31D7AE4F-9BDD-4989-B9B3-85E6DF0CA6EA@NLnetLabs.nl> X-Mailer: VM 8.0.14 under 21.4.1 (i386--netbsdelf) From: Andreas Gustafsson Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: Olaf Kolkman wrote: > On Feb 25, 2010, at 11:22 PM, Mark Andrews wrote: > > If you add HIP record that only differs in the case of the > > rendezvous server from one that already exists there is really > > no reason why a HIP aware server couldn't silently ignore the > > add. > > > > This leaves you with non-minimal RRsets if they are added to a > > server that is not aware of the type. This difference however > > is not a bad thing. > > > > Obviously one needs to preserve records that differ only the case > > of the domain names when loading zone as the zone may have been > > signed with a type unaware server. A type aware signer however > > can collapse a RRset where there are records that only differ in > > case. > > But that would be erroneous behavior because those new RRs MUST NOT > specify type-specific comparison rules. (Correct?) The words "type-specific comparison rules" were not intended to refer to the case-insensitive comparison of embedded domain names in RRs of known type, but to special-case rules such as those defined for the SOA, WKS, and CNAME types in RFC2136 section 1.1.5. RFC3597 and the current draft are admittedly somewhat unclear on this point. In particular, the phrase "to ensure that the outcome of the comparison is identical whether the RR is known to the server or not" should probably be dropped because I don't think the spec actually ensures that. I'm contemplating rewriting Section 6 as follows; would this be clearer? Certain DNS protocols, notably Dynamic Update [RFC2136], require RRs to be compared for equality. Two RRs of the same unknown type are considered equal when their RDATA is bitwise equal. This implies that embedded domain names are compared in a case-sensitive manner by servers for which the type is unknown, as they are included in the overall bitwise comparison. As a result, for RRs containing embedded domain names, the outcome of a comparison can depend on whether the RR type is known to the server or not. Furthermore, it is possible to have multiple RRs owned by the same name that differ only in the character case of the embedded domain name(s). This is similar to the possibility of multiple TXT records differing only in character case, and not expected to cause any problems in practice [or perhaps it is; see the ongoing discussion with Mark Andrews]. [RFC2136] section 1.1.5 defined special type-specific comparison rules for a number of RR types. Specifications of new RR types MUST NOT require the use of such type-specific comparison rules as they cannot be implemented by servers for which the type is unknown. -- Andreas Gustafsson, gson@araneus.fi From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Fri Feb 26 06:41:32 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E6A428C1FA; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 06:41:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.544 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.544 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.944, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_INFO=1.448, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ll8XNE2x4Sl0; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 06:41:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C331728C1D5; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 06:41:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nl1KJ-000Hdc-1o for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 14:37:59 +0000 Received: from [208.86.224.201] (helo=mail.yitter.info) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:CAMELLIA256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nl1KC-000HcY-6B for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 14:37:52 +0000 Received: from crankycanuck.ca (69-196-144-230.dsl.teksavvy.com [69.196.144.230]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.yitter.info (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id B7C0C1ECB4E8 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 14:37:50 +0000 (UTC) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 09:37:45 -0500 From: Andrew Sullivan To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] WGLC: Unknown RR's to Draft standard (rfc3597bis) Message-ID: <20100226143745.GA3517@shinkuro.com> References: <4B86687B.3060906@ogud.com> <201002252222.o1PMMZDa020888@drugs.dv.isc.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <201002252222.o1PMMZDa020888@drugs.dv.isc.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: No hat. On Fri, Feb 26, 2010 at 09:22:35AM +1100, Mark Andrews wrote: > > 6. Equality Comparison […] > Users assume domainnames can be used in a case insensitive maners. > Users don't expect record that differ only in case to exist in a > RRset. > > e.g. > > If you add HIP record that only differs in the case of the > rendezvous server from one that already exists there is really > no reason why a HIP aware server couldn't silently ignore the > add. This sounds to me like a provisioning-side bug, not a problem with the specification for unknown. In other words, the mechanism for creating the HIP record (in the example) needs to be aware of this quirk, because (owing to the needs of the unknown type and the possibility of bit strings in the DNS) the DNS _can't_ be aware of it. That "can't" is precisely what the current text of the draft is calling out, and I don't see any way around it without changing the rules about what could be added to the DNS. The provisioning side, however, could do a lookup, realise that the cases are not going to match, and make them match before performing the update. A -- Andrew Sullivan ajs@shinkuro.com Shinkuro, Inc. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Fri Feb 26 07:11:01 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B35AE3A87A3; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 07:11:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.555 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.555 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.044, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id na7QCM5DitEj; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 07:10:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51CDA3A87BF; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 07:10:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nl1mL-000ME2-Km for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 15:06:57 +0000 Received: from [2001:4f8:3:bb:230:48ff:fe5a:2f38] (helo=nsa.vix.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:CAMELLIA256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nl1mG-000MDc-FW for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 15:06:52 +0000 Received: from nsa.vix.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nsa.vix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C0EFAAF4E for ; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 15:06:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from vixie@nsa.vix.com) From: Paul Vixie To: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] WGLC: Unknown RR's to Draft standard (rfc3597bis) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 26 Feb 2010 09:37:45 EST." <20100226143745.GA3517@shinkuro.com> References: <4B86687B.3060906@ogud.com> <201002252222.o1PMMZDa020888@drugs.dv.isc.org> <20100226143745.GA3517@shinkuro.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.1; nil; GNU Emacs 22.2.1 Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 15:06:52 +0000 Message-ID: <90353.1267196812@nsa.vix.com> Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: > Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 09:37:45 -0500 > From: Andrew Sullivan > > > If you add HIP record that only differs in the case of the > > rendezvous server from one that already exists there is really > > no reason why a HIP aware server couldn't silently ignore the > > add. > > This sounds to me like a provisioning-side bug, not a problem with the > specification for unknown. In other words, the mechanism for creating > the HIP record (in the example) needs to be aware of this quirk, ... it's not a quirk. this is why RFC 2136 has a top-down model where updates are only applied at the primary master and then trickle back down in ixfr. the primary master MUST silently discard the new record in this example. From dnsext-archive@ietf.org Fri Feb 26 07:45:16 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A60E28C133 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 07:45:16 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -11.28 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-11.28 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, HELO_EQ_CZ=0.445, HOST_EQ_BROADBND=1.118, HOST_EQ_CZ=0.904, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_16=1.526, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_02=0.383, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_2=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_OB_SURBL=10, URIBL_SC_SURBL=10, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, URI_HEX=0.368, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fWDNaeOD7beb for ; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 07:45:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from 236.115.broadband5.iol.cz (236.115.broadband5.iol.cz [88.100.115.236]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B138A3A840C for ; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 07:45:07 -0800 (PST) From: "Authorized Pillstore" To: dnsext-archive@ietf.org Subject: Hello, dnsext-archive, check our 80% Sale MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20100226154507.B138A3A840C@core3.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 07:45:07 -0800 (PST)
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From dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Fri Feb 26 07:45:38 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E5CE28C124 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 07:45:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -11.279 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-11.279 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, HELO_EQ_CZ=0.445, HOST_EQ_BROADBND=1.118, HOST_EQ_CZ=0.904, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_16=1.526, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_02=0.383, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_2=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, NUMERIC_HTTP_ADDR=0.001, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_OB_SURBL=10, URIBL_SC_SURBL=10, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, URI_HEX=0.368, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LgYVw-whdink for ; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 07:45:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from 236.115.broadband5.iol.cz (236.115.broadband5.iol.cz [88.100.115.236]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15A3E3A87F3 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 07:45:30 -0800 (PST) From: "Authorized Pillstore" To: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: Hello, dnsext-archive, check our 80% Sale MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20100226154531.15A3E3A87F3@core3.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 07:45:30 -0800 (PST)
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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Fri Feb 26 09:05:14 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B83B28C212; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 09:05:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.495 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.495 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TW-83X874O6n; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 09:05:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A46CB28C1D4; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 09:05:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nl3W6-000CHg-8w for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 16:58:18 +0000 Received: from [66.92.146.20] (helo=stora.ogud.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nl3W0-000CH7-Ts for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 16:58:13 +0000 Received: from stora.ogud.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by stora.ogud.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o1QGw5JR009142 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 11:58:05 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from namedroppers@stora.ogud.com) Received: (from namedroppers@localhost) by stora.ogud.com (8.14.3/8.14.3/Submit) id o1QGw5Hx009141 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 11:58:05 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from namedroppers) Received: from [213.165.64.20] (helo=mail.gmx.net) by psg.com with smtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NkOKe-0005aD-Pc for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 24 Feb 2010 20:59:45 +0000 Received: (qmail invoked by alias); 24 Feb 2010 20:59:40 -0000 Received: from cpe90-146-83-173.liwest.at (EHLO [192.168.1.10]) [90.146.83.173] by mail.gmx.net (mp066) with SMTP; 24 Feb 2010 21:59:40 +0100 X-Authenticated: #2150894 X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX1/hvEByS1HhCDWIx0I929VC4Zw3OXoKb6IcLt04UG Eq5okN3826MmAa Message-ID: <4B859332.40004@gmx.at> Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 21:59:30 +0100 From: Alexander Bartolich User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (X11/20090817) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Paul Vixie CC: Andrew Sullivan , Jonathan de Boyne Pollard , Namedroppers owner , Namedroppers mailing list , Olafur Gudmundsson Subject: Re: [dnsext] Re: 2nd RFD: comp.protocols.dns.std moderated (remove) References: <4B84F9C6.4020108@NTLWorld.COM> <20100224151314.GB62229@shinkuro.com> <63834.1267035727@nsa.vix.com> In-Reply-To: <63834.1267035727@nsa.vix.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Y-GMX-Trusted: 0 X-FuHaFi: 0.78000000000000003 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.67 on 66.92.146.20 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: [ Moderators note: Post was moderated, either because it was posted by a non-subscriber, or because it was over 20K. With the massive amount of spam, it is easy to miss and therefore delete relevant posts by non-subscribers. Please fix your subscription addresses. ] Paul Vixie wrote: > i created comp.protocols.dns.std a few years ago and ran the gateway for a > while and then clearly forgot about it. nobody except me reads usenet any > more. i think it's safe to kill this newsgroup. Thank you for this clear statement. The Big 8 Management Board will take a vote on the group in about two weeks. Ciao Alexander. From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Fri Feb 26 09:05:45 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB97528C212; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 09:05:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.494 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.494 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1, WEIRD_PORT=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fNkwX94XLUY4; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 09:05:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A24CA28C1D6; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 09:05:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nl3Wx-000CMC-CB for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 16:59:11 +0000 Received: from [66.92.146.20] (helo=stora.ogud.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nl3Wr-000CL8-Fy for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 16:59:06 +0000 Received: from stora.ogud.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by stora.ogud.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o1QGwwMs009157 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 11:58:58 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from namedroppers@stora.ogud.com) Received: (from namedroppers@localhost) by stora.ogud.com (8.14.3/8.14.3/Submit) id o1QGwwBO009156 for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 11:58:58 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from namedroppers) Received: from [81.103.221.48] (helo=mtaout02-winn.ispmail.ntl.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NkwhW-0002ZT-68; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 09:41:38 +0000 Received: from aamtaout01-winn.ispmail.ntl.com ([81.103.221.35]) by mtaout02-winn.ispmail.ntl.com (InterMail vM.7.08.04.00 201-2186-134-20080326) with ESMTP id <20100226094136.OXRE4474.mtaout02-winn.ispmail.ntl.com@aamtaout01-winn.ispmail.ntl.com>; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 09:41:36 +0000 Received: from [192.168.1.3] (really [82.25.54.149]) by aamtaout01-winn.ispmail.ntl.com (InterMail vG.2.02.00.01 201-2161-120-102-20060912) with ESMTP id <20100226094136.JMZP13254.aamtaout01-winn.ispmail.ntl.com@[192.168.1.3]>; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 09:41:36 +0000 Received: from [192.168.1.2] HELO [192.168.1.2] by [192.168.1.3] via TCP with SMTP (SMTP Submission) id 4b84f9d4 ; 24 Feb 2010 10:05:07 +0000 Message-ID: <4B84F9C6.4020108@NTLWorld.COM> Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 10:04:54 +0000 From: Jonathan de Boyne Pollard Organization: Wacks Wicks Works User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-GB; rv:1.9.1.7) Gecko/20100111 Thunderbird/3.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Followup-To: news.groups.proposals To: Namedroppers owner , Namedroppers mailing list Cc: Alexander Bartolich , Olafur Gudmundsson , Andrew Sullivan Subject: [dnsext] Re: 2nd RFD: comp.protocols.dns.std moderated (remove) References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Cloudmark-Analysis: v=1.1 cv=ZtHxNT4mZm3rCuM0SmWmgWxeBwJsziC8EqOrwwVkrhA= c=1 sm=0 a=ENMlHEuzL8wA:10 a=SCo1hh1FAAAA:8 a=WcQ5s9TIAAAA:8 a=1LXoxZJ0IVmoTrbNOzgA:9 a=vLxIYW--qRVmXy70W3cA:7 a=pApsTPnAy7v5iyvk8YvG5GLdimgA:4 a=iw4bf7yTzGQA:10 a=a14h5csXHx8A:10 a=ba5k4SFgxgKvzGtZ:21 a=QxWDfp3BajJn3pGp:21 a=HpAAvcLHHh0Zw7uRqdWCyQ==:117 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.67 on 66.92.146.20 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: [ Moderators note: Post was moderated, either because it was posted by a non-subscriber, or because it was over 20K. With the massive amount of spam, it is easy to miss and therefore delete relevant posts by non-subscribers. Please fix your subscription addresses. ] > > > This is a formal Request for Discussion (RFD) to remove moderated > newsgroup comp.protocols.dns.std. > > RATIONALE: > > Probe posts to this group resulted in bounces. > > (expanded from): host webster.isc.org[2001:4f8:1:d::12] said: 550 5.1.1: Recipient address rejected: User unknown in local recipient table (in reply to RCPT TO command) > > PROPONENT: > > Alexander Bartolich > For those on the mailing list that aren't aware, this removal notice has been posted three times to the comp.protocols.dns.std newsgroup. It appears that this is as simple as someone forgetting to update/migrate the moderator address a while back. One part of the RFD announcement lists as the submission address for the mailing list, for example. 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Make this click right now and you will get around 400 brands available for express packaging to your area, plus discounts on 40 of them, which are by the way the most famous ones! http://jdrl99939.jafoxakom.cn From directory-bounces@ietf.org Fri Feb 26 11:35:03 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F9BD3A8825 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 11:35:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: The results of your email commands From: directory-bounces@ietf.org To: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1795332349==" Message-ID: Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 11:35:02 -0800 Precedence: bulk X-BeenThere: directory@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 List-Id: Discussion of issues related to directories X-List-Administrivia: yes Sender: directory-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: directory-bounces@ietf.org --===============1795332349== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The results of your email command are provided below. Attached is your original message. - Unprocessed: Make this click right now and you will get around 400 brands available for express packaging to your area, plus discounts on 40 of them, which are by the way the most famous ones! http://jdrl99939.jafoxakom.cn - Done. --===============1795332349== Content-Type: message/rfc822 MIME-Version: 1.0 Return-Path: X-Original-To: directory-request@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: directory-request@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3B993A870D; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 11:35:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -34.308 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-34.308 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2=4.395, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, RELAY_IS_220=2.118, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.931, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xF2wv7zWEcBZ; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 11:34:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from 220-135-19-253.HINET-IP.hinet.net (220-135-19-253.HINET-IP.hinet.net [220.135.19.253]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B9953A882A; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 11:34:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from 220.135.19.253 by mail.helpmax.ru; Sat, 27 Feb 2010 03:37:08 +0800 Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 03:37:08 +0800 From: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: On-line medical call-service To: Message-ID: <000d01cab71b$156dd540$6400a8c0@reputationstn1> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal Your road to best-priced medicants will be only one click long! Make this click right now and you will get around 400 brands available for express packaging to your area, plus discounts on 40 of them, which are by the way the most famous ones! http://jdrl99939.jafoxakom.cn --===============1795332349==-- From apps-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Fri Feb 26 11:35:03 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 637FB28C227 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 11:35:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: The results of your email commands From: apps-discuss-bounces@ietf.org To: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1346672636==" Message-ID: Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 11:35:02 -0800 Precedence: bulk X-BeenThere: apps-discuss@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 List-Id: General discussion of application-layer protocols X-List-Administrivia: yes Sender: apps-discuss-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: apps-discuss-bounces@ietf.org --===============1346672636== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The results of your email command are provided below. Attached is your original message. - Unprocessed: Make this click right now and you will get around 400 brands available for express packaging to your area, plus discounts on 40 of them, which are by the way the most famous ones! http://jdrl99939.jafoxakom.cn - Done. --===============1346672636== Content-Type: message/rfc822 MIME-Version: 1.0 Return-Path: X-Original-To: apps-discuss-request@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: apps-discuss-request@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3B993A870D; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 11:35:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -34.308 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-34.308 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2=4.395, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, RELAY_IS_220=2.118, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.931, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xF2wv7zWEcBZ; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 11:34:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from 220-135-19-253.HINET-IP.hinet.net (220-135-19-253.HINET-IP.hinet.net [220.135.19.253]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B9953A882A; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 11:34:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from 220.135.19.253 by mail.helpmax.ru; Sat, 27 Feb 2010 03:37:08 +0800 Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 03:37:08 +0800 From: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: On-line medical call-service To: Message-ID: <000d01cab71b$156dd540$6400a8c0@reputationstn1> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal Your road to best-priced medicants will be only one click long! Make this click right now and you will get around 400 brands available for express packaging to your area, plus discounts on 40 of them, which are by the way the most famous ones! http://jdrl99939.jafoxakom.cn --===============1346672636==-- From dime-bounces@ietf.org Fri Feb 26 11:35:03 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66E7428C23D for ; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 11:35:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: The results of your email commands From: dime-bounces@ietf.org To: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1168607116==" Message-ID: Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 11:35:02 -0800 Precedence: bulk X-BeenThere: dime@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 List-Id: Diameter Maintanence and Extentions Working Group X-List-Administrivia: yes Sender: dime-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: dime-bounces@ietf.org --===============1168607116== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The results of your email command are provided below. Attached is your original message. - Unprocessed: Make this click right now and you will get around 400 brands available for express packaging to your area, plus discounts on 40 of them, which are by the way the most famous ones! http://jdrl99939.jafoxakom.cn - Done. --===============1168607116== Content-Type: message/rfc822 MIME-Version: 1.0 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dime-request@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: dime-request@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3B993A870D; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 11:35:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -34.308 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-34.308 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2=4.395, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, RELAY_IS_220=2.118, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.931, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xF2wv7zWEcBZ; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 11:34:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from 220-135-19-253.HINET-IP.hinet.net (220-135-19-253.HINET-IP.hinet.net [220.135.19.253]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B9953A882A; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 11:34:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from 220.135.19.253 by mail.helpmax.ru; Sat, 27 Feb 2010 03:37:08 +0800 Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 03:37:08 +0800 From: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: On-line medical call-service To: Message-ID: <000d01cab71b$156dd540$6400a8c0@reputationstn1> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal Your road to best-priced medicants will be only one click long! Make this click right now and you will get around 400 brands available for express packaging to your area, plus discounts on 40 of them, which are by the way the most famous ones! http://jdrl99939.jafoxakom.cn --===============1168607116==-- From reputationstn1@helpmax.ru Fri Feb 26 11:35:01 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3B993A870D; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 11:35:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -34.308 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-34.308 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2=4.395, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, RELAY_IS_220=2.118, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.931, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xF2wv7zWEcBZ; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 11:34:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from 220-135-19-253.HINET-IP.hinet.net (220-135-19-253.HINET-IP.hinet.net [220.135.19.253]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B9953A882A; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 11:34:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from 220.135.19.253 by mail.helpmax.ru; Sat, 27 Feb 2010 03:37:08 +0800 Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 03:37:08 +0800 From: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: On-line medical call-service To: Message-ID: <000d01cab71b$156dd540$6400a8c0@reputationstn1> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal Your road to best-priced medicants will be only one click long! Make this click right now and you will get around 400 brands available for express packaging to your area, plus discounts on 40 of them, which are by the way the most famous ones! http://jdrl99939.jafoxakom.cn From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Fri Feb 26 14:44:10 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 258AA3A7FB0; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 14:44:10 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.915 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.915 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.719, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bmdFHc0wNTL3; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 14:44:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53A913A7D1B; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 14:44:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nl8pg-0002ZH-U2 for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 22:38:52 +0000 Received: from [131.112.32.132] (helo=necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp) by psg.com with smtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nl8pe-0002Ym-AL for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 22:38:50 +0000 Received: (qmail 56253 invoked from network); 26 Feb 2010 23:41:56 -0000 Received: from softbank219001188004.bbtec.net (HELO necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp) (219.1.188.4) by necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp with SMTP; 26 Feb 2010 23:41:56 -0000 Message-ID: <4B884D44.9030205@necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp> Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 07:37:56 +0900 From: Masataka Ohta User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; ja-JP; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 Netscape/7.1 (ax) X-Accept-Language: ja, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ondrej.sury@nic.cz CC: "namedroppers@ops.ietf.org" Subject: Re: [dnsext] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-kerr-ixfr-only-01 References: <4B87D72A.5030206@nic.cz> In-Reply-To: <4B87D72A.5030206@nic.cz> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: Ondrej Sury wrote: You should learn not to use ISO8859 specific characters for international communication. > we have incorporated all comments on -00. As the client SHOULD choose a server with the newest serial number, there actually are not much room for server selection, which limits applicability of your proposal. > If the IXFR server is is not able to reply with an IXFR it MUST NOT > reply with an AXFR unless AXFR result is smaller than IXFR result. Though RFC1995 is not well written, its behaviour here is subtly different between UDP and TCP and you should assume UDP. Then, answer will unlikely be a entire zone content. You usually get an SOA or a difference sequence. Moreover, regardless of transport, QTYPE in answer of entire zone is IXFR, not AXFR. > Instead, it MUST reply with RCODE CannotIXFR. (!FIXME) No SOA serial number in the reply, even though the server may have the newest? > If the IXFR result is larger than an AXFR, then an IXFR server MAY > reply with an AXFR result instead. This is an optimization, and IXFR The optimization is specified in RFC1995: Information about older versions should be purged if the total length of an IXFR response would be longer than that of an AXFR response. Given that the purpose of IXFR is to reduce AXFR overhead, this strategy is quite reasonable. The strategy assures that the amount of storage required is at most twice that of the current zone information. in a more useful way to bound server storage without your confusion on QTYPE. Masataka Ohta From petties5@moskva-stroi.ru Fri Feb 26 15:01:07 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A68193A74B6 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 15:01:07 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -16.712 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-16.712 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2=4.395, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.931, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_SC_SURBL=10, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yHHSBPnNe55g for ; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 15:01:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from 59-126-248-116.HINET-IP.hinet.net (59-126-248-116.HINET-IP.hinet.net [59.126.248.116]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A54413A8345 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 15:00:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from 59.126.248.116 by smtp.infobox.ru; Sat, 27 Feb 2010 07:03:04 +0800 Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 07:03:04 +0800 From: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: Winter with best qualitative drugs To: Message-ID: <000d01cab737$da6951a0$6400a8c0@petties5> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="us-ascii"; reply-type=original Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal Your road to affordable-priced cures will be only one click long! 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Make this click right now and you will get over 400 solutions available for discreet packing to your city, plus discounts on 40 of them, which are by the way the most popular ones! http://ps45.dumivusil.cn From dnsop-bounces@ietf.org Fri Feb 26 16:13:08 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dnsext-archive@ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6405C3A88A4 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 2010 16:13:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: The results of your email commands From: dnsop-bounces@ietf.org To: dnsext-archive@ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0512060118==" Message-ID: Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 16:13:07 -0800 Precedence: bulk X-BeenThere: dnsop@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 List-Id: IETF DNSOP WG mailing list X-List-Administrivia: yes Sender: dnsop-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: dnsop-bounces@ietf.org --===============0512060118== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The results of your email command are provided below. 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From dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Sat Feb 27 02:35:42 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 297203A8621 for ; Sat, 27 Feb 2010 02:35:42 -0800 (PST) X-Quarantine-ID: <7lijrBVeZdDS> X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char C2 hex): From: Approved VIAGRA\302\256 Store ; Sat, 27 Feb 2010 02:35:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from advint.com (unknown [122.167.109.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id C20303A8616 for ; Sat, 27 Feb 2010 02:35:33 -0800 (PST) From: Approved VIAGRA® Store Subject: Important notice: Google To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20100227103533.C20303A8616@core3.amsl.com> Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 02:35:33 -0800 (PST)
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From dnsext-archive@ietf.org Sat Feb 27 05:11:55 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A521828C0F9 for ; Sat, 27 Feb 2010 05:11:53 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -24.559 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-24.559 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HELO_DYNAMIC_HCC=4.295, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2=4.395, HELO_EQ_BR=0.955, HELO_EQ_DSL=1.129, HELO_EQ_TELESP=1.245, HOST_EQ_BR=1.295, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_20=1.546, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_02=0.383, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_3=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_NJABL_PROXY=1.643, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_RECV_SPAM_DOMN02=1.666, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.931, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_SBL=20, URI_HEX=0.368, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aUyi8pyvBniI for ; Sat, 27 Feb 2010 05:11:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from 201-1-61-202.dsl.telesp.net.br (201-1-62-6.dsl.telesp.net.br [201.1.62.6]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5046828C1B2 for ; Sat, 27 Feb 2010 05:11:45 -0800 (PST) From: "SuperShop on-line" To: dnsext-archive@ietf.org Subject: For dnsext-archive,we return to -80% prices Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <20100227131146.5046828C1B2@core3.amsl.com> Date: Sat, 27 Feb 2010 05:11:45 -0800 (PST)
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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Sat Feb 27 23:42:33 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 285F33A88E6; Sat, 27 Feb 2010 23:42:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 4.702 X-Spam-Level: **** X-Spam-Status: No, score=4.702 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.001, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_EQ_BLUEYON=1.4, HELO_MISMATCH_UK=1.749, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id w6v3R-a1Wmqz; Sat, 27 Feb 2010 23:42:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 31AE83A87BF; Sat, 27 Feb 2010 23:42:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nldfw-000Fg5-W8 for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Sun, 28 Feb 2010 07:34:52 +0000 Received: from [195.188.213.5] (helo=smtp-out2.blueyonder.co.uk) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nldfs-000Ffl-IU for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Sun, 28 Feb 2010 07:34:49 +0000 Received: from [172.23.170.144] (helo=anti-virus03-07) by smtp-out2.blueyonder.co.uk with smtp (Exim 4.52) id 1Nldfq-00068J-IS for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Sun, 28 Feb 2010 07:34:46 +0000 Received: from [92.238.99.235] (helo=GeorgeLaptop) by asmtp-out4.blueyonder.co.uk with esmtpa (Exim 4.52) id 1Nldfp-0003ze-Kq for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Sun, 28 Feb 2010 07:34:45 +0000 Message-ID: <8540AFD8C8DD470DA74F5992C49F2168@localhost> From: "George Barwood" To: Subject: [dnsext] Questions about RRSIG queries Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 07:34:41 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0438_01CAB848.7D3E4730" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5843 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0438_01CAB848.7D3E4730 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Could anyone clarify how explicit queries for RRSIG are supposed to = work? Specifically, if a cache has some, but not necessarily all, of the RRSIG = records for a domain, does it just return those, or should it obtain the full list? In other words, is it like ANY? ( where a recursive query is just a = debug tool, given that the result is unpredictable ). After a quick test, I think this is what current implementations do, and = probably is a reasonable interpretation of the standard. I haven't tried very hard to look for a statement in the standard, but = suspect it is silent on this. Whether it is worth clarifying, I don't know. Another question : is should AD be set or not ( by a validating resolver = )? Again, probably doesn't matter, I'm just not sure. George ------=_NextPart_000_0438_01CAB848.7D3E4730 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Could anyone clarify how explicit = queries for RRSIG=20 are supposed to work?
 
Specifically, if a cache has some, but = not=20 necessarily all, of the RRSIG records for a domain,
does it just return those, or should = it obtain=20 the full list?
 
In other words, is it like ANY? ( where = a recursive=20 query is just a debug tool, given
that the result is unpredictable = ).
 
After a quick test, I think this is = what current=20 implementations do, and probably
is a reasonable interpretation of the=20 standard.
 
I haven't tried very hard to look for a = statement=20 in the standard, but suspect
it is silent on this. Whether it is = worth=20 clarifying, I don't know.
 
Another question : is should AD be set = or not ( by=20 a validating resolver )?
Again, probably doesn't matter, I'm = just not=20 sure.
 
George
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_0438_01CAB848.7D3E4730-- From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Sun Feb 28 03:18:05 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 586183A8A74; Sun, 28 Feb 2010 03:18:05 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.919 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.919 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_40=-0.185, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WfMAVlsrBict; Sun, 28 Feb 2010 03:18:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FE673A8A73; Sun, 28 Feb 2010 03:18:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nlh3R-000AE2-9y for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Sun, 28 Feb 2010 11:11:21 +0000 Received: from [195.54.233.65] (helo=hutch.rfc1035.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nlh3O-000ADE-3f for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Sun, 28 Feb 2010 11:11:18 +0000 Received: from gromit.rfc1035.com (gromit.rfc1035.com [195.54.233.69]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: jim) by hutch.rfc1035.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 166ED154208B; Sun, 28 Feb 2010 11:11:15 +0000 (GMT) From: Jim Reid To: "George Barwood" In-Reply-To: <8540AFD8C8DD470DA74F5992C49F2168@localhost> Subject: Re: [dnsext] Questions about RRSIG queries X-Priority: 3 References: <8540AFD8C8DD470DA74F5992C49F2168@localhost> Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v936) Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 11:11:14 +0000 Cc: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.936) Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On 28 Feb 2010, at 07:34, George Barwood wrote: > Could anyone clarify how explicit queries for RRSIG are supposed to > work? The same way as queries for any other RRtype. > Another question : is should AD be set or not ( by a validating > resolver )? Only when the validating resolver has authenticated all the data in the Answer and Authority Sections of the responses it returns to the client. If you think the language in RFC4035 isn't clear enough on how the AD bit gets used, suggest how the text could be improved. From dnsext-archive@ietf.org Sun Feb 28 06:25:20 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F33C63A8AB0 for ; Sun, 28 Feb 2010 06:25:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -31.361 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-31.361 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_80=2, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2=4.395, HELO_EQ_DYNAMIC=1.144, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_20=1.546, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_02=0.383, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_3=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_RECV_SPAM_DOMN0b=1.666, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.931, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, URI_HEX=0.368, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id T+SmMSn+lnoi for ; Sun, 28 Feb 2010 06:25:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from 114-36-127-169.dynamic.hinet.net (114-36-127-169.dynamic.hinet.net [114.36.127.169]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 424003A8795 for ; Sun, 28 Feb 2010 06:25:18 -0800 (PST) From: "SuperShop on-line" To: dnsext-archive@ietf.org Subject: For dnsext-archive,we return to -80% prices Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <20100228142518.424003A8795@core3.amsl.com> Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 06:25:18 -0800 (PST)
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From dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Sun Feb 28 06:25:25 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B16DF3A8AB0 for ; Sun, 28 Feb 2010 06:25:25 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -51.361 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-51.361 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_80=2, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2=4.395, HELO_EQ_DYNAMIC=1.144, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_20=1.546, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_02=0.383, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_3=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_RECV_SPAM_DOMN0b=1.666, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.931, URIBL_BLACK=20, URI_HEX=0.368, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZS73IgJWuoBh for ; Sun, 28 Feb 2010 06:25:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from 114-36-127-169.dynamic.hinet.net (114-36-127-169.dynamic.hinet.net [114.36.127.169]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04C693A8795 for ; Sun, 28 Feb 2010 06:25:23 -0800 (PST) From: "SuperShop on-line" To: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: For dnsext-archive,we return to -80% prices Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <20100228142524.04C693A8795@core3.amsl.com> Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 06:25:23 -0800 (PST)
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From dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Sun Feb 28 11:35:49 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7B4F3A8AFD for ; Sun, 28 Feb 2010 11:35:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -12.186 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-12.186 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, HELO_EQ_PL=1.135, HOST_EQ_PL=1.95, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_16=1.526, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_02=0.383, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_2=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_SBL=20, URIBL_SC_SURBL=10, URI_HEX=0.368, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JifVNWmGOglc for ; Sun, 28 Feb 2010 11:35:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from host5-132.chomiczowka.waw.pl (host5-132.chomiczowka.waw.pl [82.177.156.132]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C75B3A8710 for ; Sun, 28 Feb 2010 11:35:47 -0800 (PST) From: "Authorized Pillstore" To: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: Hello, dnsext-archive, check our 80% Sale MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20100228193548.1C75B3A8710@core3.amsl.com> Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 11:35:47 -0800 (PST)
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From dnsext-archive@ietf.org Sun Feb 28 11:35:59 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2DA328C1B0 for ; Sun, 28 Feb 2010 11:35:59 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -22.186 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-22.186 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, HELO_EQ_PL=1.135, HOST_EQ_PL=1.95, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_16=1.526, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_02=0.383, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_2=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_SC_SURBL=10, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, URI_HEX=0.368, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1xV9H4agnS0Z for ; Sun, 28 Feb 2010 11:35:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from host5-132.chomiczowka.waw.pl (host5-132.chomiczowka.waw.pl [82.177.156.132]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5D6228C1AD for ; Sun, 28 Feb 2010 11:35:57 -0800 (PST) From: "Authorized Pillstore" To: dnsext-archive@ietf.org Subject: Hello, dnsext-archive, check our 80% Sale MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20100228193557.D5D6228C1AD@core3.amsl.com> Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 11:35:57 -0800 (PST)
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From dlcxmedia-feature-tags@ietf.org Sun Feb 28 13:00:37 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 587E328C1E7 for ; Sun, 28 Feb 2010 13:00:37 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -66.56 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-66.56 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_95=3, HELO_EQ_RO=1.235, HOST_EQ_RO=0.904, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, SARE_UNA=1.231, URIBL_BLACK=20, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5kHtu8jV2tTN for ; Sun, 28 Feb 2010 13:00:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from lupunico.b.astral.ro (lupunico.b.astral.ro [213.164.250.90]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 3897B28C15F for ; Sun, 28 Feb 2010 13:00:23 -0800 (PST) To: Subject: Re: Order status #599294 From: Kristine MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20100228210033.3897B28C15F@core3.amsl.com> Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 13:00:23 -0800 (PST)

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From dlcxmedia-feature-tags@ietf.org Sun Feb 28 13:38:15 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 727A128C1EC for ; Sun, 28 Feb 2010 13:38:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -79.438 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-79.438 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_60=1, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HELO_DYNAMIC_DHCP=1.398, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR=2.426, HELO_EQ_CPE=0.5, HOST_EQ_CPE=0.979, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_UNA=1.231, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VqJrs6Q-d8gx for ; Sun, 28 Feb 2010 13:38:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from cpe-69-206-153-108.hvc.res.rr.com (cpe-69-206-153-108.hvc.res.rr.com [69.206.153.108]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 74C9528C1EA for ; Sun, 28 Feb 2010 13:38:02 -0800 (PST) To: Subject: Delivery Status Notification (Failure) From: Faith MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20100228213811.74C9528C1EA@core3.amsl.com> Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 13:38:02 -0800 (PST)

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From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Sun Feb 28 19:35:38 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 71DD43A8A2D; Sun, 28 Feb 2010 19:35:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.74 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.74 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_20=-0.74] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id coijMRsB4R6J; Sun, 28 Feb 2010 19:35:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 957593A88AE; Sun, 28 Feb 2010 19:35:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NlwJD-0003fn-8n for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Mon, 01 Mar 2010 03:28:39 +0000 Received: from [2001:4f8:3:bb::5] (helo=farside.isc.org) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NlwJA-0003fZ-GA for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 01 Mar 2010 03:28:36 +0000 Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (drugs.dv.isc.org [IPv6:2001:470:1f00:820:214:22ff:fed9:fbdc]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "drugs.dv.isc.org", Issuer "ISC CA" (not verified)) by farside.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FBB5E60B3; Mon, 1 Mar 2010 03:28:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marka@isc.org) Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by drugs.dv.isc.org (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o213STOv092201; Mon, 1 Mar 2010 14:28:30 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from marka@drugs.dv.isc.org) Message-Id: <201003010328.o213STOv092201@drugs.dv.isc.org> To: "George Barwood" Cc: namedroppers@ops.ietf.org From: Mark Andrews References: <8540AFD8C8DD470DA74F5992C49F2168@localhost> Subject: Re: [dnsext] Questions about RRSIG queries In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 28 Feb 2010 07:34:41 -0000." <8540AFD8C8DD470DA74F5992C49F2168@localhost> Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2010 14:28:29 +1100 Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: In message <8540AFD8C8DD470DA74F5992C49F2168@localhost>, "George Barwood" write s: > Could anyone clarify how explicit queries for RRSIG are supposed to = > work? Does it matter? No sane validator will ask for RRSIG records. RRSIG records are useless without the records that they sign. Mark -- Mark Andrews, ISC 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: marka@isc.org From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Sun Feb 28 20:59:35 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8E4A3A8B11; Sun, 28 Feb 2010 20:59:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wdTmUI47S0Ox; Sun, 28 Feb 2010 20:59:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1910F3A7C68; Sun, 28 Feb 2010 20:59:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nlxdt-000AMY-J4 for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Mon, 01 Mar 2010 04:54:05 +0000 Received: from [2001:478:6:0:230:48ff:fe11:220a] (helo=vacation.karoshi.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nlxdp-000AK1-0c for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 01 Mar 2010 04:54:02 +0000 Received: from karoshi.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by vacation.karoshi.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o214qXrU004373; Mon, 1 Mar 2010 04:52:36 GMT Received: (from bmanning@localhost) by karoshi.com (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id o214qXu2004372; Mon, 1 Mar 2010 04:52:33 GMT Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2010 04:52:33 +0000 From: bmanning@vacation.karoshi.com To: Mark Andrews Cc: George Barwood , namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [dnsext] Questions about RRSIG queries Message-ID: <20100301045233.GB4316@vacation.karoshi.com.> References: <8540AFD8C8DD470DA74F5992C49F2168@localhost> <201003010328.o213STOv092201@drugs.dv.isc.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <201003010328.o213STOv092201@drugs.dv.isc.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: On Mon, Mar 01, 2010 at 02:28:29PM +1100, Mark Andrews wrote: > > In message <8540AFD8C8DD470DA74F5992C49F2168@localhost>, "George Barwood" write > s: > > Could anyone clarify how explicit queries for RRSIG are supposed to = > > work? > > Does it matter? No sane validator will ask for RRSIG records. > RRSIG records are useless without the records that they sign. > A of course it matters. a sane resolver should be able to ask for RRSIG records independently of the records the sigs belong to. resolver != validator. I can certainly think of at least two reasons for making explicit queries. --bill From owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Sun Feb 28 23:49:34 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsext-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 330FB3A88E4; Sun, 28 Feb 2010 23:49:34 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.048 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.048 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id L1UMUdDpE+Wq; Sun, 28 Feb 2010 23:49:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5EC7F3A87F0; Sun, 28 Feb 2010 23:49:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nm0Fz-000MYL-Bc for namedroppers-data0@psg.com; Mon, 01 Mar 2010 07:41:35 +0000 Received: from [83.145.227.89] (helo=gusev.araneus.fi) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nm0Fu-000MXy-Qn for namedroppers@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 01 Mar 2010 07:41:31 +0000 Received: from guava.gson.org (guava.gson.org [83.145.227.105]) by gusev.araneus.fi (Postfix) with ESMTP id EEA2B91C28; Mon, 1 Mar 2010 09:41:44 +0200 (EET) Received: by guava.gson.org (Postfix, from userid 101) id 3725E75EAD; Mon, 1 Mar 2010 09:41:28 +0200 (EET) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <19339.28583.964805.814026@guava.gson.org> Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2010 09:41:27 +0200 To: Dick Franks Cc: namedroppers Subject: Re: [dnsext] WGLC: Unknown RR's to Draft standard (rfc3597bis) In-Reply-To: References: <4B86687B.3060906@ogud.com> <201002252222.o1PMMZDa020888@drugs.dv.isc.org> <31D7AE4F-9BDD-4989-B9B3-85E6DF0CA6EA@NLnetLabs.nl> X-Mailer: VM 8.0.14 under 21.4.1 (i386--netbsdelf) From: Andreas Gustafsson Sender: owner-namedroppers@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: To unsubscribe send a message to namedroppers-request@ops.ietf.org with List-Unsubscribe: the word 'unsubscribe' in a single line as the message text body. List-Archive: Dick Franks wrote: > Clarification needed at para 2 of section 4. > > | 4. Name Compression > = > | To avoid such corruption, servers MUST NOT compress domain names > | embedded in the RDATA of types that are class-specific or not well- > | known. This requirement was stated in [RFC1123] without defining the > | term "well-known"; it is hereby specified that only the RR types > | defined in [RFC1035] are to be considered "well-known". > > Does this mean "all RR types defined in RFC1035", or the much smaller > list defined in RFC1035 3.3 para 1? The intended meaning is "all RR types defined in RFC1035". I'm not convinced this actually needs clarification; the latter interpretation seems a bit far-fetched to me. Besides, in the unlikely event that an implementer were to use the latter interpretation, the implementation would still interoperate correctly; the only practical consequence would be the loss of compression in the the MX RR, as all the other types not in the list are either class-specific, obsolete, experimental (and in practice obsolete), or lack embedded domain names. > Propose revised wording: > > ... hereby specified that all RR types defined in [RFC1035] are > eligible for compression. That wording would imply that even the class-specific types defined in RFC1035 are eligible for compression, which is incorrect. Also, by dropping the word "only", it would weaken one of the main points of the document, namely that types not defined in RFC1035 MUST NOT be compressed. -- Andreas Gustafsson, gson@araneus.fi