From fnuoykysiyeu@bluejordan.com Sat Sep 01 07:25:00 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IRR64-0004Wo-Qg; Sat, 01 Sep 2007 07:25:00 -0400 Received: from [89.215.123.74] (helo=unknown.ddns-lan.pl.ekk.bg) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IRR64-0005p0-6q; Sat, 01 Sep 2007 07:25:00 -0400 Received: from [89.215.123.74] by mail.gcis.net; Thu, 23 Aug 2007 24:23:25 +0200 From: "Julia Neal" To: Subject: Hi sugar! Remember me Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 24:23:25 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 Thread-Index: Aca6Q7JG8NPTMM33H4XKSV00JB1ZED== X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2670 Message-ID: <01c7e5d4$38d3a390$4a7bd759@fnuoykysiyeu> X-Spam-Score: 4.1 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 08170828343bcf1325e4a0fb4584481c Hi sweety Have not heard from you for ages! Have you forgotten about me? Hope not! How are things going? I am stilll single and spring has come.. all of my friends are hanging out with their boyfriends and I am alone L Though we might get to know each other better and perhaps this Spring will be the last lonely spring for us? I have registered my profile at http://search-girls.cn/?idAff=67 - why don’t you come and see my new photos? And perhaps even email me.. Will be waiting… From sevgiHonda@casamikael.com Sat Sep 01 07:48:23 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IRRSh-0007Ev-3t for dnsop-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 01 Sep 2007 07:48:23 -0400 Received: from s01060004e216bd3d.sc.shawcable.net ([70.76.178.149]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IRRSf-0005FW-Kr for dnsop-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 01 Sep 2007 07:48:23 -0400 Received: from tim17 ([177.154.98.171] helo=tim17) by S01060004e216bd3d.sc.shawcable.net ( sendmail 8.13.3/8.13.1) with esmtpa id 1ilqFR-000UIR-CJ for dnsop-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 1 Sep 2007 05:49:11 -0600 Message-ID: <000d01c7ec8e$09e37040$95b24c46@tim17> From: "sevgi Honda" To: Subject: anahio Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2007 05:48:39 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0007_01C7EC5B.BF490040" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 4.3 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 8abaac9e10c826e8252866cbe6766464 ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C7EC5B.BF490040 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable http://atended.com/ Hello Honda winner of the 2007 herbal gold medal Afiz delairo ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C7EC5B.BF490040 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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Hello Honda
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http://thickcent.cn/ ------------96EC8409D371010-- From bxgsygkzjm@meulen-van-der.myweb.nl Sat Sep 01 23:31:08 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IRgB2-00046r-4L; Sat, 01 Sep 2007 23:31:08 -0400 Received: from [222.161.186.242] (helo=meulen-van-der.myweb.nl) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IRgAp-0005Jo-2O; Sat, 01 Sep 2007 23:31:08 -0400 Message-ID: Reply-To: "Major" From: "Major" To: "Shayna" Cc: "Abe Robertson" , "Carmella Lynch" , "Bridget" , "Cordie" , "Linh" , "Andre Baker" , "Gwyn" , "Douglass Wood" , "Connie" Subject: How far will it last Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2007 02:19:35 -0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_2F1_59E7_2A9EAF6B.8B84E6DD" X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 3.1 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 7f3fa64b9851a63d7f3174ef64114da7 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_2F1_59E7_2A9EAF6B.8B84E6DD Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_36B_CEA2_49BA6134.21731523" ------=_NextPart_36B_CEA2_49BA6134.21731523 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable When elections are rare, puzzled they expose bread the State to a turn vi= olent crisis poison - When they are frequent, they ke voice thunder =5BFo= otnote q: =5BThe level bright Civil War showed that when the necessity ar= ose the American people, both in the No If kiss great bite lighted writer= s have not at present existed in America, the reason is very simply slimy= given in these fa Small nations have therefore ever goat been the shade cradle of political= fat liberty; and the fact friendly that many of th wrong All the plants = of wash lead Europe grow in the northern parts transport of the Union; th= e South has special productions wind No event can be plead compared with = this continuous removal of the human race, except drove purpose perhaps t= hose irrupt There is no Indian so wretched as sprung not to retain flown = under sang his hut of bark a lofty idea bent of his personal w circle introduce Amongst a democratic people, where there is no mate forb= idden hereditary wealth, every man works to earn a living, Men approve li= ving direction in democratic ages have many passions, but most of their w= ax passions either histrionic end in the love =5BFootnote street want b: = That is to say, the majority of the people; measure for the hilly opposit= e party, called the Union pa Of The Cause safely delay Of A Leaning To Pa= ntheism grew weary Amongst Democratic Nations It is possible to dress ima= gine an extreme point sun knot at which marry freedom and equality would = meet and be confounde When elections recur at long intervals the solid sh= od State is exposed to ticket violent agitation cost every time they tak In these bibulous cases safely cholic the advantages meline derived from = the exercise of this power are unquestionable, and I am s safe grind Equa= lity of conditions not only stretch ennobles the notion of labor in men's= example estimation, but it raises the The speedily history of the world= affords no instance of a great nation retaining annually step the form e= xcept of republican gove =5BFootnote r: theory I do not speak of group a confederation of small re= publics, osteoid carelessly but of a great consolidated Repub brother But there is yet another motive worried which is unlock more shot= cogent than all the others: the South might indeed, ri replace =5BFootn= ote c: This decree was preceded by wrote a report of the committee by arr= est which rice it was framed, containin In comb America the use talk of c= onscription is unknown, and men are produce induced to knelt enlist by bo= unties. The notion The laws of the United silent States frightened coat = are extremely favorable to the division of property; excuse but a cause w= hich I have drop heard American office statesmen confess that the Union slay w= ill have great order difficulty in maintaining its =5BFootnote beam c: In= fallen advertisement New England the estates are exceedingly small, but = they throat are rarely subjected to furt The arguments which I have pull = encourage adduced to show that slavery is more natural start fake and mor= e advantageous in the trade crowded A single fact will suffice to shoe sh= ow the prodigious number whistle of individuals who leave New England, in= th ------=_NextPart_36B_CEA2_49BA6134.21731523 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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When elections are rare, puzzled they expose brea= d the State to a turn violent crisis poison - When they are frequent, the= y ke voice thunder =5BFootnote q: =5BThe level bright Civil War showed th= at when the necessity arose the American people, both in the No If kiss g= reat bite lighted writers have not at present existed in America, the rea= son is very simply slimy given in these fa
 
Small nations have therefore ever goat been the s= hade cradle of political fat liberty; and the fact friendly that many of = th wrong All the plants of wash lead Europe grow in the northern parts tr= ansport of the Union; the South has special productions wind No even= t can be plead compared with this continuous removal of the human race, e= xcept drove purpose perhaps those irrupt There is no Indian so wretc= hed as sprung not to retain flown under sang his hut of bark a lofty idea= bent of his personal w  
circle introduce Amongst a democratic people, whe= re there is no mate forbidden hereditary wealth, every man works to earn = a living, Men approve living direction in democratic ages have many passi= ons, but most of their wax passions either histrionic end in the love =5B= Footnote street want b: That is to say, the majority of the people; measu= re for the hilly opposite party, called the Union pa Of The Cause safely = delay Of A Leaning To Pantheism grew weary Amongst Democratic Nations It = is possible to dress imagine an extreme point sun knot at which marry fre= edom and equality would meet and be confounde When elections recur at lon= g intervals the solid shod State is exposed to ticket violent agitation c= ost every time they tak
In these bibulous cases safely cholic the advanta= ges meline derived from the exercise of this power are unquestionable, an= d I am s safe grind Equality of conditions not only stretch ennobles the = notion of labor in men's example estimation, but it raises the  = ;The speedily history of the world affords no instance of a great nation = retaining annually step the form except of republican gove
 
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brother But there is yet another motive worried w= hich is unlock more shot cogent than all the others: the South might inde= ed, ri  replace =5BFootnote c: This decree was preceded by wrot= e a report of the committee by arrest which rice it was framed, containin= In comb America the use talk of conscription is unknown, and men are pro= duce induced to knelt enlist by bounties. The notion  The laws = of the United silent States frightened coat are extremely favorable to th= e division of property; excuse but a cause which
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you decide Deannalyn Bigulic http://micodes.com/ From kahrensghvue@arcor-ip.net Tue Sep 04 00:13:23 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ISPn0-0001bT-O9; Tue, 04 Sep 2007 00:13:22 -0400 Received: from dslb-084-062-016-053.pools.arcor-ip.net ([84.62.16.53] helo=arcor-ip.net) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ISPmy-0001Yr-OV; Tue, 04 Sep 2007 00:13:22 -0400 Message-ID: <87de01c7ee97$01e3d7d0$7b88504c@kahrensghvue> Reply-To: "Emogene" From: "Emogene" To: "Tory" Cc: "Agueda" , "Eleanor Ford" , "Lavinia" , "Donnie Cruz" , "Ozie" , "Lacy Nguyen" , "Alene Carter" , "Kiana" , "Gerry" , "Tonie Armstrong" Subject: Now you believe me Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 01:57:54 -0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_974_3537_580293EC.749A2328" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Score: 2.6 (++) X-Scan-Signature: fac892abe0c719c7bb99f6e7c710cdae This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_974_3537_580293EC.749A2328 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_3CD_385D_8CBD298B.5C713AC2" ------=_NextPart_3CD_385D_8CBD298B.5C713AC2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I confess began that I do not entertain that firm and rapid say complete = attachment to the neatly liberty of the press whic Someone observed to di= sagree me one linen smile day, in Philadelphia, that almost all crimes in= America mend are caused by the silently Advantages trouble chin American= bed Society Derive From Democracy borrow Nevertheless, all note commodities and ideas circulate throughout = the Union ticket let as freely as in a country inh The same abuses of pen= cil level sprout power which still maintain slavery, would then become ca= rd the source of the most alar I am so entirely convinced among shrilly t= hat the strod jury is pre-eminently a political institution that judge I = still consi The said negro enters upon slavery ground as annoyed soon men= tal as he is born: nay, he may have been purchased in the womb, an Of hematic The Relation paste Between Public across send Associations And= Newspapers The tumultuous robust and constantly stop harassed life which= equality makes corporeal men lead, alert not only distracts them f Among= st the hand various stage reasons which tend amused hold to render the ex= isting Union useful to the Americans, two pri The contrary takes place in= bit ages of equality. taste The nearer wood the citizens are drawn to be= en the common level branch I am persuaded that in the end hung democracy = diverts the imagination from all that is smiling shrink external to man, = a cheat If any one could point push judge out an intermediate and yet a h= over tenable position between the complete independe Part II desert When men are request no longer united amongst themselves t= asty by firm pocket and lasting ties, it is impossible to obtai bind kni= t Why The double choke Federal System Is Not Adapted To All Peoples, organization And How serpentine The neatly alert Anglo-Americans Were Ena= bled To Adopt It journey As long as the jail negro remains oil a slave, he may be kept in = a condition not very far removed pled from that o When we argument cast = our form eyes upon the map of the United round States, we perceive manage= r the chain of the Alleghany Moun When these things are pointed out to th= e tooth American curl sat statesmen, they content meeting themselves with= assuring y When, on impossible the contrary, flower the influence of th= e muscle jury is band extended to civil causes, its application is con The great privilege of dress wed the Americans hide does not simply regre= t consist in their being more enlightened than ot The institution of the = jury, if umbrella confined to island criminal causes, approve observation= is always in danger, but when once it i As soon drum awkwardly as it rod= is admitted that the whites and the rely emancipated blacks are placed u= pon the same territ The jury contributes most powerfully to inquisitive p= ost form the judgement and tail to increase moor the natural intelligence ------=_NextPart_3CD_385D_8CBD298B.5C713AC2 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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I confess began that I do not entertain that firm= and rapid say complete attachment to the neatly liberty of the press whi= c Someone observed to disagree me one linen smile day, in Philadelphia, t= hat almost all crimes in America mend are caused by the silently Advantag= es trouble chin American bed Society Derive From Democracy
 
borrow Nevertheless, all note commodities and ide= as circulate throughout the Union ticket let as freely as in a country in= h The same abuses of pencil level sprout power which still maintain slave= ry, would then become card the source of the most alar I am so entir= ely convinced among shrilly that the strod jury is pre-eminently a politi= cal institution that judge I still consi The said negro enters upon = slavery ground as annoyed soon mental as he is born: nay, he may have bee= n purchased in the womb, an  
Of hematic The Relation paste Between Public acro= ss send Associations And Newspapers The tumultuous robust and constantly = stop harassed life which equality makes corporeal men lead, alert not onl= y distracts them f Amongst the hand various stage reasons which tend amus= ed hold to render the existing Union useful to the Americans, two pri The= contrary takes place in bit ages of equality. taste The nearer wood the = citizens are drawn to been the common level branch I am persuaded that in= the end hung democracy diverts the imagination from all that is smiling = shrink external to man, a cheat If any one could point push judge out an = intermediate and yet a hover tenable position between the complete indepe= nde
Part II desert When men are request no longer uni= ted amongst themselves tasty by firm pocket and lasting ties, it is impos= sible to obtai  bind knit Why The double choke Federal System I= s Not Adapted To All Peoples,
 
organization And How serpentine The neatly alert = Anglo-Americans Were Enabled To Adopt It
journey As long as the jail negro remains oil a s= lave, he may be kept in a condition not very far removed pled from that o=   When we argument cast our form eyes upon the map of the Unite= d round States, we perceive manager the chain of the Alleghany Moun When = these things are pointed out to the tooth American curl sat statesmen, th= ey content meeting themselves with assuring y  When, on impossi= ble the contrary, flower the influence of the muscle jury is band extende= d to civil causes, its application is con
The great privilege of dress wed the Americans hi= de does not simply regret consist in their being more enlightened than ot= The institution of the jury, if umbrella confined to island criminal cau= ses, approve observation is always in danger, but when once it i As soon = drum awkwardly as it rod is admitted that the whites and the rely emancip= ated blacks are placed upon the same territ The jury contributes most pow= erfully to inquisitive post form the judgement and tail to increase moor = the natural intelligence
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Tue, 04 Sep 2007 06:05:11 -0400 Received: from [91.164.8.51] (helo=[91.164.8.51]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ISVHT-00039N-7d for dnsop-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 04 Sep 2007 06:05:11 -0400 Received: from patate ([103.179.188.169] helo=patate) by [91.164.8.51] ( sendmail 8.13.3/8.13.1) with esmtpa id 1MZhKl-000XRT-AS for dnsop-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 4 Sep 2007 12:05:16 +0200 Message-ID: <000201c7eedb$102d4800$3308a45b@patate> From: "Alvina lemoyne" To: Subject: anailak Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 12:05:04 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0005_01C7EEEB.D3B61800" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 2.1 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 97adf591118a232206bdb5a27b217034 ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C7EEEB.D3B61800 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable http://mamezon.com/ How it is going dnsop-archive If you dont gain at least 1/2 inch within the first month, send them = back for a full refund tik Haghiri ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C7EEEB.D3B61800 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
http://mamezon.com/
How it is going dnsop-archive
If you dont gain at least 1/2 inch within the = first=20 month, send them back for a full refund
tik Haghiri
------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C7EEEB.D3B61800-- From Humberto.Mullin@ambafrance-zw.org Tue Sep 04 08:10:16 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ISXEW-0004gq-LJ for dnsop-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 04 Sep 2007 08:10:16 -0400 Received: from host184-220-dynamic.7-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it ([87.7.220.184]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ISXEQ-0007YY-6P for dnsop-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 04 Sep 2007 08:10:16 -0400 Received: by 10.103.214.147 with SMTP id mlzqOSonEJkLw; Tue, 4 Sep 2007 14:10:21 +0200 (GMT) Received: by 192.168.89.117 with SMTP id EBipExpgQVnyRu.6547621845334; Tue, 4 Sep 2007 14:10:19 +0200 (GMT) Message-ID: <5EF2AF14.23E21BF9@ambafrance-zw.org> Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 14:10:16 +0200 From: "Humberto Mullin" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dnsop-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: tledab Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 2.2 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 8ac499381112328dd60aea5b1ff596ea Hi bro Mullin If you dont gain at least 1/2 inch within the first month, send them back for a full refund Greggo Shank http://mhtlhelp.com/ From fsptyt@bocater.com.br Tue Sep 04 09:12:53 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ISYD7-0007K2-Aj for dnsop-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 04 Sep 2007 09:12:53 -0400 Received: from [85.204.145.212] (helo=local-B-212.tim.ro) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ISYD6-0000Nh-OV for dnsop-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 04 Sep 2007 09:12:53 -0400 Received: from [85.204.145.212] by smtp.bocater.com.br; Tue, 35 Aug 2007 15:12:51 +0200 Message-ID: <00fbffa4$00fbfe78$d491cc55@fsptyt> From: "Derick Waller" To: Subject: Please tell to me little about yourself Date: Tue, 35 Aug 2007 15:12:51 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 X-Spam-Score: 3.0 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 2870a44b67ee17965ce5ad0177e150f4 Hello my new friend. I'm glad that you gave to me your e-mail (excuse me please I has forgotten name of that site where we got know each other cause my profile was done by my girlfriend I don't understand Internet well ). I want to tell to you a little about myself. I love a life, I love children, I want to get acquainted with loving, devoted, fair the man with the purpose of creation of family. I would like to meet the true love and the best friend, related soul and second half, the person which will divide my interests. I want to devote the life to to make this man very happy, is ready to give it everything, that the woman can give, the wife, the best friend. I dream of the strong, harmonious marriage based on love, trust, respect, spiritual affinity and mutual understanding. Please tell to me little about yourself. I will wait your answer on my e-mail: sunsweetgirl@rambler.ru From vuficipressimar@icipressi.org Tue Sep 04 11:22:55 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ISaEx-0006Pg-Cd; Tue, 04 Sep 2007 11:22:55 -0400 Received: from ip-120-198.zirzile.lt ([84.32.120.198]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ISaEv-0004Oh-9v; Tue, 04 Sep 2007 11:22:55 -0400 Received: from [84.32.120.198] by mail.register.it; Tue, 35 Aug 2007 17:22:56 +0200 Date: Tue, 35 Aug 2007 17:22:56 +0200 From: "Erika Carney" X-Mailer: The Bat! (v2.00.2) Business Reply-To: vuficipressimar@icipressi.org X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <483864763.92438897457012@icipressi.org> To: dime-request@ietf.org Subject: Best medications with best discounts over the world! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----------409DAAAAAA3E5B" X-Spam-Score: 3.8 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: c1c65599517f9ac32519d043c37c5336 ------------409DAAAAAA3E5B Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Information Message: My dear client, After all a NEW pharma Internet page is accomplished!!! Generally we only present: - All general medications are accessible! - We shipping all over theworld - Without Any Medical advisor Attendances - No Formulas - One Hundred Percent Customer Assurance Visit our Newly Opened Discount Shop and PRESERVE your cash!!! http://orform.cn/ ------------409DAAAAAA3E5B Content-Type: text/html; charset=Windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Information Message:

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http://orform.cn/ ------------409DAAAAAA3E5B-- From Blanca_hollister@thefriends.on.ca Tue Sep 04 12:30:04 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ISbHw-0001Lc-4g for dnsop-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 04 Sep 2007 12:30:04 -0400 Received: from e177215177.adsl.alicedsl.de ([85.177.215.177] helo=e177219096.adsl.alicedsl.de) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ISbHu-0006Ak-EA for dnsop-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 04 Sep 2007 12:30:04 -0400 Received: from hexe ([164.164.130.22] helo=hexe) by e177219096.adsl.alicedsl.de ( sendmail 8.13.3/8.13.1) with esmtpa id 1FaCsV-000GSC-Bs for dnsop-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 4 Sep 2007 18:30:14 +0200 Message-ID: <000301c7ef10$d82de4b0$60dbb155@hexe> From: "Blanca hollister" To: Subject: enittip Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 18:30:02 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0008_01C7EF21.9BB6B4B0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 2.1 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 8abaac9e10c826e8252866cbe6766464 ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C7EF21.9BB6B4B0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable http://www.disnniy.com/ Wazzup dnsop-archive No girls laugh at me now, haha, i laugh at them Lone Lastra ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C7EF21.9BB6B4B0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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Wazzup dnsop-archive
No girls laugh at me now, haha, i laugh at = them
Lone Lastra
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http://derheini.com/
Wazzup Kaleena
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    Click here to view all product ------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C7F48B.02081C49-- From dnsop-bounces@ietf.org Tue Sep 11 13:14:57 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IV9Jw-0000Zg-QL; Tue, 11 Sep 2007 13:14:40 -0400 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IV9Jv-0000Yu-1e for dnsop@ietf.org; Tue, 11 Sep 2007 13:14:39 -0400 Received: from fw-d-whp.denic.de ([81.91.160.27] helo=denic.de) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IV9Js-0003hp-9F for dnsop@ietf.org; Tue, 11 Sep 2007 13:14:38 -0400 Received: by unknown.office.denic.de (Postfix, from userid 501) id 0739951E817; Tue, 11 Sep 2007 19:14:34 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 19:14:34 +0200 From: Peter Koch To: IETF DNSOP WG Message-ID: <20070911171434.GM1233@unknown.office.denic.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Nq2Wo0NMKNjxTN9z" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: dd055ca905b7a8538e016a7989511901 Subject: [DNSOP] IETF 69 DNSOP meeting minutes X-BeenThere: dnsop@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF DNSOP WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: dnsop-bounces@ietf.org --Nq2Wo0NMKNjxTN9z Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Dear WG, the attached minutes of our Chicago meeting have been available at since 2007-08-24, yet not been posted to the list. The final deadline for the overall IETF69 minutes is tomorrow, Wednesday, 2100 UTC. Please submit any comments asap. Apologies for missing an earlier post. Thanks go to John Kristoff (scribe) as well as Jaap Akkerhuis and George Michaelson (jabber). -Peter --Nq2Wo0NMKNjxTN9z Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="ietf69-minutes.txt" ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- dnsop WG minutes for IETF 69, Chicago, IL USA ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- WG: DNS Operations (dnsop) Meeting: IETF 69, Chicago Location: Palmer House Hilton, "Monroe" Date: Tuesday, 24 July 2007 Time: 09:00 - 11:30 (UTC -0500) Chairs: Rob Austein, Peter Koch Minutes: John Kristoff Jabber: xmpp:dnsop@jabber.ietf.org J-Scribe: Jaap Akkerhuis, George Michaelson J-Script: http://www3.ietf.org/meetings/ietf-logs/dnsop/2007-07-24.html Audio: http://limestone.uoregon.edu/ftp/pub/videolab/media/ietf69/ietf69-ch8-tue-am.mp3 WG URL: http://www.dnsop.org Material: https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/meeting_materials.cgi?meeting_num=69 Version: $Id: ietf69-minutes.txt,v 1.1 2007/08/24 20:40:16 pk Exp $ ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) Administrivia [ 09:02 {audio 0:11:08} ] Tools website for latest documents: Agenda Bashing. No changes. Posted at: All meeting materials on proceedings page: 2) Status Update [ 09:05 {audio 0:14:00} ] - RFCs published RFC 4892 "Requirements for a Mechanism Identifying a Name Server Instance" Was . Thanks to Suzanne Wolf and David Conrad. - Internet-Drafts in RFC Editor Queue -none- - I-Ds at the IESG [draft-huston-6to4-reverse-dns-07.txt] Not a WG documented, but individual submission, brought to the WG for review and comments. Describes services by the Number Resource Organization (NRO). There were four DISCUSSes, 1/2 DISCUSS and a COMMENT. Working on resolving these with Geoff Houston (author) and George Michaelson (implementor). Problems primarily due to age of document and history it has had within the IETF. Particularly the alleged view that this was another 6to4 transition mechanism, which it is not. Chairs are confident outstanding issues will be cleared up. The two DISCUSSes related to security section are also being worked on. - I-Ds in or past WGLC draft-ietf-dnsop-reflectors-are-evil-03 Passed WGLC. One more revision, -04, needed to incorporiate nits and some wording changes are needed. Not submitted in time for the last Secretariat update, but as soon as the next round goes out it should be ready for the IAB and IESG and on towards becoming a BCP. draft-ietf-dnsop-default-local-zones-02 Passed WGLC. Waiting another editing round, clarifications and language changes. draft-ietf-dnsop-respsize-07 In WGLC, ends 2007-08-22 (see below). draft-ietf-dnsop-as112-under-attack-help-help-00 In WGLC, ends 2007-08-22 (see below). 3) Active Drafts [ 09:11 {audio 0:20:23} ] 3.1) AS112 Work Basket draft-ietf-dnsop-as112-under-attack-help-help-00 Editors: Joe Abley, William F. Maton Sotomayor WGLC ends 2007-08-22. draft-ietf-dnsop-as112-ops-00 Editors: Joe Abley, William F. Maton Sotomayor Some editorial suggestions and wording changes suggested. Some comments about making examples more general rather than all UNIX specific. Joe reported that there has been some discussion about extending AS112. It is unclear from Prague what do do about IPv6 transport for current zones and new zones whose traffic might be sunk by AS112 (e.g. in ip6.arpa.). General apathy, but no disagreement thus far about taking these on. Do we need a document, IANA prefix assignments for IPv6 capable name servers? Do we add other zones such as those in draft-ietf-dnsop-default-local-zones? AS112 are not well coordinated. Loosely coordinated through a mailing list. Would all AS112 operators be able to add a full set of zones to their servers? Looking for guidance. Rob Austein suggested listing the possibility that new zones may be neded in the future, but zones should not be added preemptively. Wait til traffic becomes a problem, then add them. Akira Kato felt the term "IPv6 transport" in the draft is not clear. Rob Austein suggests "carriage of DNS over IPv6". Dave Hankins, delegate new zones to to an IPv6 addresses so that new service would only appear to servers bound to that address. IPv4-only hosts would not be able to get this service however. Joe, this is an answer for a subset of services, related to IPv6, but not all the services in the default-local-zones draft. Mark Andrews, hard part is adding new zones. IPv6 transport is a non-issue. As long as you have one serviceable address we'll be fine. Stephane Bortzmeyer, do not delay the draft with new zones, just document the current AS112 effort. Start new work item for designing better AS112 services after this document is done. Joe clarifies that he wasn't suggesting these new zones for the current draft. Lars Liman argues for preemptive handling of zones before they become a problem. Peter Koch, there was some discussion on this in Prague. Would anyone object to move changes for IPv6 to a separate document? No objections. Would this need review in another WG, GROW for instance? Joe, wouldn't hurt to ask, I'll get their opinion. 3.2) Reverse Mapping [ 09:24 {audio 0:32:31} ] draft-ietf-dnsop-reverse-mapping-considerations-04 + contributions from draft-anderson-reverse-dns-status-00 Editors: Daniel Senie, Andrew Sullivan Major changes between -02 and -03, thanks to those that commented, very helpful, lots cleaned up. Fixed NXDOMAIN to name error and eliminated terms like "useful". Added history section to address problem of it not being clear why we are talking about reverse mapping as a secuirty measure. Added general recommendations section. Added section to talk about undue burden of net operators, this is not intended to add undue burden to operators. Peter Koch, make sure this is archived. Andrew, yes it is in the minutes from last time. Andrew, apologies. We missed someone's feedback in -03, became issue 17 in the tracker, regardling the term "in use". Issued -04 for this. RFC 1912 suggests all hosts should have a name, because issue 18. Issue 19 confusing example, just removed it. Still remaining controversies. This still imporses too great a burden on operators. Question for WG. Does it? Suggestion that there is an MTA "thing" that requires reverse mapping, but couldn't locate it. Please tell me if you find it. BCP 30 suggests you can use forward/reverse mapping to reduce spam. Do we need to refer to BCP 30? Contribution of reverse-dns-status. RFC 1788, Experimental, suggests a different way of doing the reverse mapping. Is this appropriate to incorporate? Section 3.6 reverse-dns-status, says delegate all addresses in the block and do not assume Ethernet. We believe we say what amounts to same thing, but please comment if you feel we should it include. Appreciate comments, this has been a WG item for a long time. Chairs cautiously optimistic most everything is addressed. Matt Larson, no need to reference RFC 1778. Editors have been very patient, accommodating for a particular invididual. Rob Austein, Dean did ask the correct question, he submitted an alternative properly. It is a fair question to ask, no matter what people think, who has read the draft? 12-15 hands go up. Of those who have read it, who thinks it should be adopted as a alternative WG item? No hands. No one contests. Stephane Bortzmeyer, RFC 2025 is now 8 years old and issues have changed significantly since then. Do not give it too much importance. Andrew, if we add it, just a general remark that says RFC 2025 says do it this way. Stephane, can refer to other groups such as ISP and RIR policies. Andrew, can add a general remark that says ISPs may refuse service without a mapping. Removed RIR references, because they change all the time. Anti-spam policies change frequently, difficult to point to them. Peter Koch, anyone in favor of reference to RFC 2025? One hand. Andrew will propose additional text for history section. Next version (-05) should be published before Vancover and go for WGLC. No one uncomfortable with that. 3.3) Referral Response Sizes [ 09:40 {audio 0:47:59} ] < no slides > draft-ietf-dnsop-respsize-07 Editors: Paul Vixie, Akira Kato WGLC ends 2007-08-22. Akira thanks those who commented. This document is about large resource records such as TXT or DNSSEC. They are out of scope. This documents deals only with authoritative servers, not stub resolvers or recursive servers. If EDNS0 is available, this document does not add value, however only a portion of the servers advertise EDNS0. Additionally, some devices such as firewalls filter response sizes > 512 bytes. May result in repeated queries to authoritative servers. We may put some text into the document regarding this issue. Do people support this? Iljitsch van Beijnum, did you say you always see 1/3 of requests with EDNS0 enabled? Akira, yes in one trace, other statistics was slightly more than 1/2. Iljitsch, I seem to recall seeing the statistic 80% elsewhere. Very different figure. People shouldn't reject > 512 byte messages when EDNS0 in use and we shouldn't give them a work around. Either don't do EDNS0 or do not reject. Akira, EDNS0 usage varies a lot by network/region. Just want to make sure it's not 100%. If near 100% then we wouldn't have to work on this draft. Jim Reid, we have a draft in ENUM WG related to EDNS0 and this issue. It's been suggested that we split that draft in two. Perhaps we could roll part of our draft into Akira's draft. Peter Koch, there is something coming to us from ENUM? Jim, not ENUM, suggestion came from area director. Jon Peterson thinks our draft should be split in two and one part should come from somewhere other than ENUM. Rob Austein, comments I've heard about this draft (respsize), it is an old draft and can we finish it already. Should we defer anything else to another doc and just get this out? In favor of getting finishing this as quickly as possible, hum. Fair amount of hums. Hum to further explore new issuess. Not much hums. Seems like people want to get it out there, but not entirely clear. Peter Koch, we have issue of EDNS0 deployment and ENUM WG needs EDNS0 in service and in middle boxes. IETF is bad at saying thou shalt support this everywhere. What are the appropriate protocol elements to support today? Personal view seeing non-EDNS0 queries in the wild, there is a need for this document. Olafur Gudmundsson, EDNS0 should not be added to this doc. Draft is basically done. If we want to create a "DNS profile" for what implementations should do, that is another doc, a major undertaking. Jim Reid, agrees with Olafur, we can go back and revisit EDNS0 in another draft. Peter Koch, two ways to go. Add a reference to EDNS0, that this doc might become obsolete when EDNS0 is universally supported, but get the draft out the door. Other option to discuss EDNS) and middle boxes, dive in. Jim, do not do all that work with this draft. Peter, hum if you think we should just reference EDNS0. Fair amount of humbs. Hum if you think we should do EDNS0, nearly quiet. Hum in favor of getting this out the door. Olafur, are you going to repeat this question on the mailing list? Chair said of course. 3.4) DNS Resolver Priming [ 09:53 {audio 1:01:40} ] draft-ietf-dnsop-resolver-priming-00 Editors: Peter Koch, Matt Larson Peter Koch, this document was accepted by this WG after Prague. This is more or a less a copy of the original individual submission, with additional consideration for TTLs. There is a desire to add AAAA records into the root-servers.net zone as well as glue in the root for IPv6-only resolvers. The priming process is not formally specified (no BCP). Do we want DNSSEC validation of the root servers' addresses in the priming response? Attacker could spoof root server addresses during priming. With DNSSEC this could be detected, but some say this is expensive error detection. Could protect crucial part of the whole resolution process. Con is that we've never done that. Referral (glue) isn't signed. Editors thought this might be worth treating as a special case to make sure process isn't interfered with at the top. Rob Austein, why is this a special case? It is just resolution. Peter, it starts at the top, you could trick resolver at start up. Rob, I don't understand the distinction. Mark Andrews, problem is .net for root-servers.net isn't signed. Even if you did sign root-servers.net, you'd need the trust chain or you need two sets of trust anchors. Peter, I'm not at that issue yet. Mark, the addresses in the additional section for root will have sigs if root-servers.net is signed. Assumption about glue not having sigs, but root additional is not glue. This is not a referral response. Peter, do we expect the whole trust chain to be available, what is the easiest way to get there? Rob, thought experiment, if all root stuff is in root zone, what is magic about the process of resolution. Peter is looking nervous, what is the issue? There is an operational problem that you have to jump through the .net zone. But no magic. Mark, there is no magic here. Peter, question of .net trust chain is a different issue and we are coming to that. Given priming, do we expect the resolver to set OK bit on priming query and validate the response. Priming queries are predictable and an attractive target to attack. If there is no trust anchor, this doesn't work, only helps DoS attacks. Rob, what happens to a non-DNSSEC priming query? Peter, I give you a malicious set, this change is not making things worse. Olaf Kolkman, if root name server hands me bad things, I have DNSSEC to catch that. What you'd protect is non-DNSSEC signed data. There is a circular dependency here too, but not sure what, don't think priming or root should be special. What is special about the root zone from the perspective of the protocol? Peter, no delegation. It comes out of the hints from the priming query. Olafur, yes and no. Does it does it make a difference if it is sent? Ask the question again, resolver should not rely on this. It might not fit into packet. Not a special case. Peter, that is a different consideration again we come to on later slides. Don't assume current setup. Bruce Campbell, will this increase adoption of DNSSEC? Rob, probably neutral, probably no difference, but depends on resolver. Thought I was hearing people agree there is no magic. Hum if you think there is no magic (signficant hum). Hum if there is magic (no hums). Peter, what do you mean by magic? It doesn't cause harm to validate addresses? Rob, it doesn't cause harm, but to do DNSSEC validation here is no different than anywhere else. It is just a query, that is what I meant by no magic. Peter, what would this mean for selecting parameters for the priming query? What should the recommendation to the resolver be? Set the OK bit? If yes, what should the resolver do with the response? Rob, same as any other query. Set if you were going to, if you going to validate, then do so. Peter, if I need to validate, how do I follow it? Rob, that's the unsigned glue problem, not the only place you have to do this. Leap of faith to follow validation. Peter, normal case we do not validate name server addresses, no chain, just responses. If we've been tricked we can tag this as an error. This would call for not validating the answers here and if that's the sense of the room that's fine. Rob, didn't follow, you do do the validations, but you have to refer it. Peter, no point in validating after referral, because you've used it. Rob, not true, you can tell you've been spoofed and remove cache entry. Peter, perhaps we should take this offline. Continuing... Should priming response be self contained? Should all the information (full trust chain) be in the priming response. Mark Andrews, no. We do not need DSKEY records being primed. Resolver will go get them itself. Olaf, if you want to deal with trust relation between you and root server name sets expliciting, you should probably configure those keys as trust anchors. I feel we're heading the wrong way with this. Peter, skipping questions 3.1 and 3.2, don't make sense right now. Drop DNSSEC stuff, might be OK and that's it. Matt, to summarize priming, you get the info you need in one query and one response. Would there be any way to prime and keep that same attribute (one query, one response), if you asked for that key would you get everything you need? Thought it might be a clever optimization without doing any protocol changes. Mark Andrews, one query, one response is an accident of history, resolver should be able to get ns rrset and ask for each of the addresses. Bind 8 is broken, doesn't handle priming properly. Not going to get fixed, should be able to get A RRs separately. Rob, some ancient history, 1035, root wasn't magic, no priming process documented, there was a safety belt set of addresses you sent when you had no other idea what to do. Simplest place for safety belt was the root. You usually just sent a "ok, where is the root". Olaf, priming process is a matter of careful implementation. Implementation note may be beneficial. dnssec experiences draft by Sam Weiler, maybe it could go in there? Peter, challenging the adoption of this document, saying it is useless? Olaf, yes. Matt, priming mechanism is useful and should be documented. Olaf, if that is the case, then then I support clarifying what is going on. Drop this document and clarify what happens now. Rob, may not be in scope for this document, 1) existing practice, how is this done. Not documented when I wrote code, critical to get it right in implementation, worth documenting, 2) if we have recommendations on how to do better that is fine, 3) Thomas Narten reminded me that this conditional/leap-of-faith thing with glue is not written down anywhere. Might be worth writing down how to do the priming process, priming using DNSSEC would probably make reference to that document. Andrew Sullivan, Let's not focus on DNSSEC, just how we do priming. Matt, if we're going to do such a doc, we shouldn't rule out optimizations. [ note: Jabber down ] Rob, option A, get it out as soon as possible, plain IPv4, no DNSSEc, priming. Option B, A plus optimizations. Option C, include DNSSEC. Little to no hum for Option A. Fair amount of support for option B. Some support for C, but fewer if louder than B. Room seems to favor leaving out DNSSEC. Anyone object to follow-on work for DNSSEC? Peter, will take remaining to list and re-focus. 4) WG Charter [ 10:30 {audio 1:38:39} ] Peter, some milestones open and from last year. For the sake of time let's move to section 5. 5) Other (non WG) Internet-Drafts [ 10:31 {audio 1:39:03} ] 5.1) draft-sato-dnsop-anycast-node-requirements Editors: Shinta Sato, Takayasu Matsuura, Yashuhiro Orange Morishita Shinta, requirements/suggestions for authoritative name server operators who want to use anycast themselves. Mainly for ccTLD operators, but not limited to them. Who is interested in this draft? Roots, TLDs, RIRs, others? IETF dnsop may not be a good place for this? Peter Koch, how many have read draft? About 10 hands. Joe Abley, there is overlap between RFC 4786. Other document didn't have much DNS-specific text, what is missing from it? Geoff Huston, seems contentious to mention anycast and DNS, which the GROW document do. I think you should boldly go further and say more about DNS on anycast. Joe Abley, wasn't saying this document has no value, just that it should focus on the DNS part and make use of references for the more general text. Peter Koch, chars will discuss with Shinta and focus. We won't ask for adoption here. Will come up with a question/propsal for the WG. We appreciate the hints towards certain appeals activities, we will keep that in mind, but we are fans of the process. Cannot make a decision right now, not enough people have read the draft. Ed Lewis, being there are certain objections to DNS and anycast, you'll find many people in this room have had success with DNS and anycast. dnsop is a good place to get input and give to support to going forward with this document on the basis of operational experience with DNS anycast. 6) Current & New Topics [ 10:39 {audio 1:47:37} ] 6.1) DNS2DB & Data Gathering Protocol Presented by: Niclas Rosell Niclas presented a prototype tool first created in the summer of 2005 sponsored by .se. It collects statistics about DNS traffic from servers and manages the data in a database. It uses a SQL back-end. Code was recently migrated fro Perl to C. It reads pcap files and stores summary data into the database. GUI written in Adobe FLEX. Can import a 85 MB pcap file in about 45 seconds on an HP GL380G4. Runs on Linux/FreeBSD with an Apache web server. uses PHP and pdo_sqlite. Flash required on the client. .se outsources the operation of their TLD and would like to access the data using a stanard XML API in the future. Web site for software: Standardization of API is an open question. 6.2) Name Server Control Protocol [ 10:52 {audio 2:00:55} ] Presented by: John Dickinson John presented the idea of developing a common control protocol that can manage multiple different name server implementations through a common interface. It should have access to all the modern features without dictating which features an implementation would support or what data can be returned by a name server. It would be extensible to allow implementors to add new objects and methods. Format of the data would preferably be XML and use XMLRPC on top of TCP/SOAP. There should be a secure channel and user authentication. It would be preferably implemented in the name servers, but for now an agent on each server that is a wrapper to local implementation that could emulate functions and zone management. Currently writing the requirements, gaining operational experience and building a wish list. Plan to have a protocol draft ready for IETF 70. Questions and comments deferred until next topic. 6.3) Name Server Management next steps [ 10:59 {audio 2:06:30} ] Presented by: Working Group Chairs, Stephane Bortzmeyer Peter Koch, last time we asked for volunteers for a design team. We have opportunity of having all the know-how, but not the right place to re-design underlying network management protocols. We need to phrase what the operational requirements of these protocols are for, but do not preclude individuals from submitting their own drafts. Identify someone who can oversee the team and is not directly involved, come up with something in the next 8-10 weeks by Vancover. Volunteers are in minutes from last IETF. Stephane Bortzmeyer, agrees with plan and volunters to work in team. Too early for deciding on NETCONF or XML. Only at discussion stage. Nominet (Roy Arends) and Sparta (Russ Mundy) would like to work with the design team. Rob Austein, ISC has been thinking about this space so I recuse myself. 7) I/O with other WGs [ 11:09 {audio 2:18:19} ] 7.1) DNSEXT leftovers Olafur Gudmundsson reports that meetings for this WG are suspended. Rechartering, no new items except for updates to old documents. Please send comments for dnsext-forgery-resilience-00, will go last call soon. Cleaning up DNAME operational aspects. Will have a new way to suppress the CNAME synthesis if the resolver says it knows about DNAME. 7.2) HTTP & cookie validity [ 11:12 {audio 2:21:12} ] Peter Koch, this effort has now been submitted to the HTTPbis BoF and this WG should hav a close look on this work, because it discusses DNS and makes some assumptions. Also keep an eye on DKIM, which also makes some assumptions regarding DNS. 8) A.O.B. [ 11:15 {audio 2:23:00} ] Ed Lewis, two things. Last couple of items outside of the IETF about dns operations to be aware of. RIPE operational group issued statement wanting the root signed. Have we (IETF) made it clear enough that this is a good idea to do? Two, putting AAAA RRs in TLDs. NANOG asked about getting AAAA glue in a TLD. Why haven't people been able to pick up IETF technologies and do them? Let's make sure we've done our work for the community. Peter Koch, should we do outreach? Ed, I have been seeing operational criticisms about the way DNS is, are we sure we're covering all the operational angels? If it's outreach, maybe we do that. All the good work we've done is not being used in practice. Something is missing. Mark Andrews, not aware of any edits outstanding for my draft. Will talk about it later with chairs. Meeting close at [ 11:18 {audio 2:27:43} ] ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- --Nq2Wo0NMKNjxTN9z Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ DNSOP mailing list DNSOP@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop --Nq2Wo0NMKNjxTN9z-- From dnsop-bounces@ietf.org Tue Sep 11 13:14:57 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IV9Jw-0000Zg-QL; Tue, 11 Sep 2007 13:14:40 -0400 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IV9Jv-0000Yu-1e for dnsop@ietf.org; Tue, 11 Sep 2007 13:14:39 -0400 Received: from fw-d-whp.denic.de ([81.91.160.27] helo=denic.de) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IV9Js-0003hp-9F for dnsop@ietf.org; Tue, 11 Sep 2007 13:14:38 -0400 Received: by unknown.office.denic.de (Postfix, from userid 501) id 0739951E817; Tue, 11 Sep 2007 19:14:34 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 19:14:34 +0200 From: Peter Koch To: IETF DNSOP WG Message-ID: <20070911171434.GM1233@unknown.office.denic.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Nq2Wo0NMKNjxTN9z" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: dd055ca905b7a8538e016a7989511901 Subject: [DNSOP] IETF 69 DNSOP meeting minutes X-BeenThere: dnsop@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF DNSOP WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: dnsop-bounces@ietf.org --Nq2Wo0NMKNjxTN9z Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Dear WG, the attached minutes of our Chicago meeting have been available at since 2007-08-24, yet not been posted to the list. The final deadline for the overall IETF69 minutes is tomorrow, Wednesday, 2100 UTC. Please submit any comments asap. Apologies for missing an earlier post. Thanks go to John Kristoff (scribe) as well as Jaap Akkerhuis and George Michaelson (jabber). -Peter --Nq2Wo0NMKNjxTN9z Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="ietf69-minutes.txt" ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- dnsop WG minutes for IETF 69, Chicago, IL USA ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- WG: DNS Operations (dnsop) Meeting: IETF 69, Chicago Location: Palmer House Hilton, "Monroe" Date: Tuesday, 24 July 2007 Time: 09:00 - 11:30 (UTC -0500) Chairs: Rob Austein, Peter Koch Minutes: John Kristoff Jabber: xmpp:dnsop@jabber.ietf.org J-Scribe: Jaap Akkerhuis, George Michaelson J-Script: http://www3.ietf.org/meetings/ietf-logs/dnsop/2007-07-24.html Audio: http://limestone.uoregon.edu/ftp/pub/videolab/media/ietf69/ietf69-ch8-tue-am.mp3 WG URL: http://www.dnsop.org Material: https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/meeting_materials.cgi?meeting_num=69 Version: $Id: ietf69-minutes.txt,v 1.1 2007/08/24 20:40:16 pk Exp $ ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1) Administrivia [ 09:02 {audio 0:11:08} ] Tools website for latest documents: Agenda Bashing. No changes. Posted at: All meeting materials on proceedings page: 2) Status Update [ 09:05 {audio 0:14:00} ] - RFCs published RFC 4892 "Requirements for a Mechanism Identifying a Name Server Instance" Was . Thanks to Suzanne Wolf and David Conrad. - Internet-Drafts in RFC Editor Queue -none- - I-Ds at the IESG [draft-huston-6to4-reverse-dns-07.txt] Not a WG documented, but individual submission, brought to the WG for review and comments. Describes services by the Number Resource Organization (NRO). There were four DISCUSSes, 1/2 DISCUSS and a COMMENT. Working on resolving these with Geoff Houston (author) and George Michaelson (implementor). Problems primarily due to age of document and history it has had within the IETF. Particularly the alleged view that this was another 6to4 transition mechanism, which it is not. Chairs are confident outstanding issues will be cleared up. The two DISCUSSes related to security section are also being worked on. - I-Ds in or past WGLC draft-ietf-dnsop-reflectors-are-evil-03 Passed WGLC. One more revision, -04, needed to incorporiate nits and some wording changes are needed. Not submitted in time for the last Secretariat update, but as soon as the next round goes out it should be ready for the IAB and IESG and on towards becoming a BCP. draft-ietf-dnsop-default-local-zones-02 Passed WGLC. Waiting another editing round, clarifications and language changes. draft-ietf-dnsop-respsize-07 In WGLC, ends 2007-08-22 (see below). draft-ietf-dnsop-as112-under-attack-help-help-00 In WGLC, ends 2007-08-22 (see below). 3) Active Drafts [ 09:11 {audio 0:20:23} ] 3.1) AS112 Work Basket draft-ietf-dnsop-as112-under-attack-help-help-00 Editors: Joe Abley, William F. Maton Sotomayor WGLC ends 2007-08-22. draft-ietf-dnsop-as112-ops-00 Editors: Joe Abley, William F. Maton Sotomayor Some editorial suggestions and wording changes suggested. Some comments about making examples more general rather than all UNIX specific. Joe reported that there has been some discussion about extending AS112. It is unclear from Prague what do do about IPv6 transport for current zones and new zones whose traffic might be sunk by AS112 (e.g. in ip6.arpa.). General apathy, but no disagreement thus far about taking these on. Do we need a document, IANA prefix assignments for IPv6 capable name servers? Do we add other zones such as those in draft-ietf-dnsop-default-local-zones? AS112 are not well coordinated. Loosely coordinated through a mailing list. Would all AS112 operators be able to add a full set of zones to their servers? Looking for guidance. Rob Austein suggested listing the possibility that new zones may be neded in the future, but zones should not be added preemptively. Wait til traffic becomes a problem, then add them. Akira Kato felt the term "IPv6 transport" in the draft is not clear. Rob Austein suggests "carriage of DNS over IPv6". Dave Hankins, delegate new zones to to an IPv6 addresses so that new service would only appear to servers bound to that address. IPv4-only hosts would not be able to get this service however. Joe, this is an answer for a subset of services, related to IPv6, but not all the services in the default-local-zones draft. Mark Andrews, hard part is adding new zones. IPv6 transport is a non-issue. As long as you have one serviceable address we'll be fine. Stephane Bortzmeyer, do not delay the draft with new zones, just document the current AS112 effort. Start new work item for designing better AS112 services after this document is done. Joe clarifies that he wasn't suggesting these new zones for the current draft. Lars Liman argues for preemptive handling of zones before they become a problem. Peter Koch, there was some discussion on this in Prague. Would anyone object to move changes for IPv6 to a separate document? No objections. Would this need review in another WG, GROW for instance? Joe, wouldn't hurt to ask, I'll get their opinion. 3.2) Reverse Mapping [ 09:24 {audio 0:32:31} ] draft-ietf-dnsop-reverse-mapping-considerations-04 + contributions from draft-anderson-reverse-dns-status-00 Editors: Daniel Senie, Andrew Sullivan Major changes between -02 and -03, thanks to those that commented, very helpful, lots cleaned up. Fixed NXDOMAIN to name error and eliminated terms like "useful". Added history section to address problem of it not being clear why we are talking about reverse mapping as a secuirty measure. Added general recommendations section. Added section to talk about undue burden of net operators, this is not intended to add undue burden to operators. Peter Koch, make sure this is archived. Andrew, yes it is in the minutes from last time. Andrew, apologies. We missed someone's feedback in -03, became issue 17 in the tracker, regardling the term "in use". Issued -04 for this. RFC 1912 suggests all hosts should have a name, because issue 18. Issue 19 confusing example, just removed it. Still remaining controversies. This still imporses too great a burden on operators. Question for WG. Does it? Suggestion that there is an MTA "thing" that requires reverse mapping, but couldn't locate it. Please tell me if you find it. BCP 30 suggests you can use forward/reverse mapping to reduce spam. Do we need to refer to BCP 30? Contribution of reverse-dns-status. RFC 1788, Experimental, suggests a different way of doing the reverse mapping. Is this appropriate to incorporate? Section 3.6 reverse-dns-status, says delegate all addresses in the block and do not assume Ethernet. We believe we say what amounts to same thing, but please comment if you feel we should it include. Appreciate comments, this has been a WG item for a long time. Chairs cautiously optimistic most everything is addressed. Matt Larson, no need to reference RFC 1778. Editors have been very patient, accommodating for a particular invididual. Rob Austein, Dean did ask the correct question, he submitted an alternative properly. It is a fair question to ask, no matter what people think, who has read the draft? 12-15 hands go up. Of those who have read it, who thinks it should be adopted as a alternative WG item? No hands. No one contests. Stephane Bortzmeyer, RFC 2025 is now 8 years old and issues have changed significantly since then. Do not give it too much importance. Andrew, if we add it, just a general remark that says RFC 2025 says do it this way. Stephane, can refer to other groups such as ISP and RIR policies. Andrew, can add a general remark that says ISPs may refuse service without a mapping. Removed RIR references, because they change all the time. Anti-spam policies change frequently, difficult to point to them. Peter Koch, anyone in favor of reference to RFC 2025? One hand. Andrew will propose additional text for history section. Next version (-05) should be published before Vancover and go for WGLC. No one uncomfortable with that. 3.3) Referral Response Sizes [ 09:40 {audio 0:47:59} ] < no slides > draft-ietf-dnsop-respsize-07 Editors: Paul Vixie, Akira Kato WGLC ends 2007-08-22. Akira thanks those who commented. This document is about large resource records such as TXT or DNSSEC. They are out of scope. This documents deals only with authoritative servers, not stub resolvers or recursive servers. If EDNS0 is available, this document does not add value, however only a portion of the servers advertise EDNS0. Additionally, some devices such as firewalls filter response sizes > 512 bytes. May result in repeated queries to authoritative servers. We may put some text into the document regarding this issue. Do people support this? Iljitsch van Beijnum, did you say you always see 1/3 of requests with EDNS0 enabled? Akira, yes in one trace, other statistics was slightly more than 1/2. Iljitsch, I seem to recall seeing the statistic 80% elsewhere. Very different figure. People shouldn't reject > 512 byte messages when EDNS0 in use and we shouldn't give them a work around. Either don't do EDNS0 or do not reject. Akira, EDNS0 usage varies a lot by network/region. Just want to make sure it's not 100%. If near 100% then we wouldn't have to work on this draft. Jim Reid, we have a draft in ENUM WG related to EDNS0 and this issue. It's been suggested that we split that draft in two. Perhaps we could roll part of our draft into Akira's draft. Peter Koch, there is something coming to us from ENUM? Jim, not ENUM, suggestion came from area director. Jon Peterson thinks our draft should be split in two and one part should come from somewhere other than ENUM. Rob Austein, comments I've heard about this draft (respsize), it is an old draft and can we finish it already. Should we defer anything else to another doc and just get this out? In favor of getting finishing this as quickly as possible, hum. Fair amount of hums. Hum to further explore new issuess. Not much hums. Seems like people want to get it out there, but not entirely clear. Peter Koch, we have issue of EDNS0 deployment and ENUM WG needs EDNS0 in service and in middle boxes. IETF is bad at saying thou shalt support this everywhere. What are the appropriate protocol elements to support today? Personal view seeing non-EDNS0 queries in the wild, there is a need for this document. Olafur Gudmundsson, EDNS0 should not be added to this doc. Draft is basically done. If we want to create a "DNS profile" for what implementations should do, that is another doc, a major undertaking. Jim Reid, agrees with Olafur, we can go back and revisit EDNS0 in another draft. Peter Koch, two ways to go. Add a reference to EDNS0, that this doc might become obsolete when EDNS0 is universally supported, but get the draft out the door. Other option to discuss EDNS) and middle boxes, dive in. Jim, do not do all that work with this draft. Peter, hum if you think we should just reference EDNS0. Fair amount of humbs. Hum if you think we should do EDNS0, nearly quiet. Hum in favor of getting this out the door. Olafur, are you going to repeat this question on the mailing list? Chair said of course. 3.4) DNS Resolver Priming [ 09:53 {audio 1:01:40} ] draft-ietf-dnsop-resolver-priming-00 Editors: Peter Koch, Matt Larson Peter Koch, this document was accepted by this WG after Prague. This is more or a less a copy of the original individual submission, with additional consideration for TTLs. There is a desire to add AAAA records into the root-servers.net zone as well as glue in the root for IPv6-only resolvers. The priming process is not formally specified (no BCP). Do we want DNSSEC validation of the root servers' addresses in the priming response? Attacker could spoof root server addresses during priming. With DNSSEC this could be detected, but some say this is expensive error detection. Could protect crucial part of the whole resolution process. Con is that we've never done that. Referral (glue) isn't signed. Editors thought this might be worth treating as a special case to make sure process isn't interfered with at the top. Rob Austein, why is this a special case? It is just resolution. Peter, it starts at the top, you could trick resolver at start up. Rob, I don't understand the distinction. Mark Andrews, problem is .net for root-servers.net isn't signed. Even if you did sign root-servers.net, you'd need the trust chain or you need two sets of trust anchors. Peter, I'm not at that issue yet. Mark, the addresses in the additional section for root will have sigs if root-servers.net is signed. Assumption about glue not having sigs, but root additional is not glue. This is not a referral response. Peter, do we expect the whole trust chain to be available, what is the easiest way to get there? Rob, thought experiment, if all root stuff is in root zone, what is magic about the process of resolution. Peter is looking nervous, what is the issue? There is an operational problem that you have to jump through the .net zone. But no magic. Mark, there is no magic here. Peter, question of .net trust chain is a different issue and we are coming to that. Given priming, do we expect the resolver to set OK bit on priming query and validate the response. Priming queries are predictable and an attractive target to attack. If there is no trust anchor, this doesn't work, only helps DoS attacks. Rob, what happens to a non-DNSSEC priming query? Peter, I give you a malicious set, this change is not making things worse. Olaf Kolkman, if root name server hands me bad things, I have DNSSEC to catch that. What you'd protect is non-DNSSEC signed data. There is a circular dependency here too, but not sure what, don't think priming or root should be special. What is special about the root zone from the perspective of the protocol? Peter, no delegation. It comes out of the hints from the priming query. Olafur, yes and no. Does it does it make a difference if it is sent? Ask the question again, resolver should not rely on this. It might not fit into packet. Not a special case. Peter, that is a different consideration again we come to on later slides. Don't assume current setup. Bruce Campbell, will this increase adoption of DNSSEC? Rob, probably neutral, probably no difference, but depends on resolver. Thought I was hearing people agree there is no magic. Hum if you think there is no magic (signficant hum). Hum if there is magic (no hums). Peter, what do you mean by magic? It doesn't cause harm to validate addresses? Rob, it doesn't cause harm, but to do DNSSEC validation here is no different than anywhere else. It is just a query, that is what I meant by no magic. Peter, what would this mean for selecting parameters for the priming query? What should the recommendation to the resolver be? Set the OK bit? If yes, what should the resolver do with the response? Rob, same as any other query. Set if you were going to, if you going to validate, then do so. Peter, if I need to validate, how do I follow it? Rob, that's the unsigned glue problem, not the only place you have to do this. Leap of faith to follow validation. Peter, normal case we do not validate name server addresses, no chain, just responses. If we've been tricked we can tag this as an error. This would call for not validating the answers here and if that's the sense of the room that's fine. Rob, didn't follow, you do do the validations, but you have to refer it. Peter, no point in validating after referral, because you've used it. Rob, not true, you can tell you've been spoofed and remove cache entry. Peter, perhaps we should take this offline. Continuing... Should priming response be self contained? Should all the information (full trust chain) be in the priming response. Mark Andrews, no. We do not need DSKEY records being primed. Resolver will go get them itself. Olaf, if you want to deal with trust relation between you and root server name sets expliciting, you should probably configure those keys as trust anchors. I feel we're heading the wrong way with this. Peter, skipping questions 3.1 and 3.2, don't make sense right now. Drop DNSSEC stuff, might be OK and that's it. Matt, to summarize priming, you get the info you need in one query and one response. Would there be any way to prime and keep that same attribute (one query, one response), if you asked for that key would you get everything you need? Thought it might be a clever optimization without doing any protocol changes. Mark Andrews, one query, one response is an accident of history, resolver should be able to get ns rrset and ask for each of the addresses. Bind 8 is broken, doesn't handle priming properly. Not going to get fixed, should be able to get A RRs separately. Rob, some ancient history, 1035, root wasn't magic, no priming process documented, there was a safety belt set of addresses you sent when you had no other idea what to do. Simplest place for safety belt was the root. You usually just sent a "ok, where is the root". Olaf, priming process is a matter of careful implementation. Implementation note may be beneficial. dnssec experiences draft by Sam Weiler, maybe it could go in there? Peter, challenging the adoption of this document, saying it is useless? Olaf, yes. Matt, priming mechanism is useful and should be documented. Olaf, if that is the case, then then I support clarifying what is going on. Drop this document and clarify what happens now. Rob, may not be in scope for this document, 1) existing practice, how is this done. Not documented when I wrote code, critical to get it right in implementation, worth documenting, 2) if we have recommendations on how to do better that is fine, 3) Thomas Narten reminded me that this conditional/leap-of-faith thing with glue is not written down anywhere. Might be worth writing down how to do the priming process, priming using DNSSEC would probably make reference to that document. Andrew Sullivan, Let's not focus on DNSSEC, just how we do priming. Matt, if we're going to do such a doc, we shouldn't rule out optimizations. [ note: Jabber down ] Rob, option A, get it out as soon as possible, plain IPv4, no DNSSEc, priming. Option B, A plus optimizations. Option C, include DNSSEC. Little to no hum for Option A. Fair amount of support for option B. Some support for C, but fewer if louder than B. Room seems to favor leaving out DNSSEC. Anyone object to follow-on work for DNSSEC? Peter, will take remaining to list and re-focus. 4) WG Charter [ 10:30 {audio 1:38:39} ] Peter, some milestones open and from last year. For the sake of time let's move to section 5. 5) Other (non WG) Internet-Drafts [ 10:31 {audio 1:39:03} ] 5.1) draft-sato-dnsop-anycast-node-requirements Editors: Shinta Sato, Takayasu Matsuura, Yashuhiro Orange Morishita Shinta, requirements/suggestions for authoritative name server operators who want to use anycast themselves. Mainly for ccTLD operators, but not limited to them. Who is interested in this draft? Roots, TLDs, RIRs, others? IETF dnsop may not be a good place for this? Peter Koch, how many have read draft? About 10 hands. Joe Abley, there is overlap between RFC 4786. Other document didn't have much DNS-specific text, what is missing from it? Geoff Huston, seems contentious to mention anycast and DNS, which the GROW document do. I think you should boldly go further and say more about DNS on anycast. Joe Abley, wasn't saying this document has no value, just that it should focus on the DNS part and make use of references for the more general text. Peter Koch, chars will discuss with Shinta and focus. We won't ask for adoption here. Will come up with a question/propsal for the WG. We appreciate the hints towards certain appeals activities, we will keep that in mind, but we are fans of the process. Cannot make a decision right now, not enough people have read the draft. Ed Lewis, being there are certain objections to DNS and anycast, you'll find many people in this room have had success with DNS and anycast. dnsop is a good place to get input and give to support to going forward with this document on the basis of operational experience with DNS anycast. 6) Current & New Topics [ 10:39 {audio 1:47:37} ] 6.1) DNS2DB & Data Gathering Protocol Presented by: Niclas Rosell Niclas presented a prototype tool first created in the summer of 2005 sponsored by .se. It collects statistics about DNS traffic from servers and manages the data in a database. It uses a SQL back-end. Code was recently migrated fro Perl to C. It reads pcap files and stores summary data into the database. GUI written in Adobe FLEX. Can import a 85 MB pcap file in about 45 seconds on an HP GL380G4. Runs on Linux/FreeBSD with an Apache web server. uses PHP and pdo_sqlite. Flash required on the client. .se outsources the operation of their TLD and would like to access the data using a stanard XML API in the future. Web site for software: Standardization of API is an open question. 6.2) Name Server Control Protocol [ 10:52 {audio 2:00:55} ] Presented by: John Dickinson John presented the idea of developing a common control protocol that can manage multiple different name server implementations through a common interface. It should have access to all the modern features without dictating which features an implementation would support or what data can be returned by a name server. It would be extensible to allow implementors to add new objects and methods. Format of the data would preferably be XML and use XMLRPC on top of TCP/SOAP. There should be a secure channel and user authentication. It would be preferably implemented in the name servers, but for now an agent on each server that is a wrapper to local implementation that could emulate functions and zone management. Currently writing the requirements, gaining operational experience and building a wish list. Plan to have a protocol draft ready for IETF 70. Questions and comments deferred until next topic. 6.3) Name Server Management next steps [ 10:59 {audio 2:06:30} ] Presented by: Working Group Chairs, Stephane Bortzmeyer Peter Koch, last time we asked for volunteers for a design team. We have opportunity of having all the know-how, but not the right place to re-design underlying network management protocols. We need to phrase what the operational requirements of these protocols are for, but do not preclude individuals from submitting their own drafts. Identify someone who can oversee the team and is not directly involved, come up with something in the next 8-10 weeks by Vancover. Volunteers are in minutes from last IETF. Stephane Bortzmeyer, agrees with plan and volunters to work in team. Too early for deciding on NETCONF or XML. Only at discussion stage. Nominet (Roy Arends) and Sparta (Russ Mundy) would like to work with the design team. Rob Austein, ISC has been thinking about this space so I recuse myself. 7) I/O with other WGs [ 11:09 {audio 2:18:19} ] 7.1) DNSEXT leftovers Olafur Gudmundsson reports that meetings for this WG are suspended. Rechartering, no new items except for updates to old documents. Please send comments for dnsext-forgery-resilience-00, will go last call soon. Cleaning up DNAME operational aspects. Will have a new way to suppress the CNAME synthesis if the resolver says it knows about DNAME. 7.2) HTTP & cookie validity [ 11:12 {audio 2:21:12} ] Peter Koch, this effort has now been submitted to the HTTPbis BoF and this WG should hav a close look on this work, because it discusses DNS and makes some assumptions. Also keep an eye on DKIM, which also makes some assumptions regarding DNS. 8) A.O.B. [ 11:15 {audio 2:23:00} ] Ed Lewis, two things. Last couple of items outside of the IETF about dns operations to be aware of. RIPE operational group issued statement wanting the root signed. Have we (IETF) made it clear enough that this is a good idea to do? Two, putting AAAA RRs in TLDs. NANOG asked about getting AAAA glue in a TLD. Why haven't people been able to pick up IETF technologies and do them? Let's make sure we've done our work for the community. Peter Koch, should we do outreach? Ed, I have been seeing operational criticisms about the way DNS is, are we sure we're covering all the operational angels? If it's outreach, maybe we do that. All the good work we've done is not being used in practice. Something is missing. Mark Andrews, not aware of any edits outstanding for my draft. Will talk about it later with chairs. Meeting close at [ 11:18 {audio 2:27:43} ] ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- --Nq2Wo0NMKNjxTN9z Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ DNSOP mailing list DNSOP@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop --Nq2Wo0NMKNjxTN9z-- From dnsop-bounces@ietf.org Tue Sep 11 13:22:48 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IV9Ra-0001a1-SD; Tue, 11 Sep 2007 13:22:34 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IV9Ra-0001Zw-Bp for dnsop@ietf.org; Tue, 11 Sep 2007 13:22:34 -0400 Received: from fw-d-whp.denic.de ([81.91.160.27] helo=denic.de) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IV9RY-0001c2-Un for dnsop@ietf.org; Tue, 11 Sep 2007 13:22:34 -0400 Received: by unknown.office.denic.de (Postfix, from userid 501) id C2D6651E828; Tue, 11 Sep 2007 19:22:31 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 19:22:31 +0200 From: Peter Koch To: IETF DNSOP WG Message-ID: <20070911172231.GN1233@unknown.office.denic.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: c0bedb65cce30976f0bf60a0a39edea4 Subject: [DNSOP] [fwd] Last Call: draft-weiler-dnssec-dlv-iana (DNSSEC Lookaside Validation (DLV) IANA Registry) to Informational RFC] X-BeenThere: dnsop@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF DNSOP WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: dnsop-bounces@ietf.org Dear WG, the IETF wide Last Call mentioned below lasts until 2007-09-20. Since it's kind of a DNS operational topic, WG participants might be interested. Discussion should take place on the IETF list, as requested. -Peter ----- Forwarded message from The IESG ----- From: The IESG To: IETF-Announce Subject: Last Call: draft-weiler-dnssec-dlv-iana (DNSSEC Lookaside Validation (DLV) IANA Registry) to Informational RFC Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 16:12:05 -0400 Reply-To: ietf@ietf.org A Last Call mesage was sent earlier today. It was missing an important word in paragraph (b). Please respond based on this text. The IESG has received a request from an individual submitter to consider the following document: - 'DNSSEC Lookaside Validation (DLV) IANA Registry' as an Informational RFC DNSSEC Lookaside Validation (DLV) is a mechanism for distributing DNSSEC trust anchors within the DNS protocol. It is documented in draft-weiler-dnssec-dlv. This is a companion document that describes the action necessary for IANA to implement DLV. The IESG would like input from the IETF community on the following questions related to this document: 1. Should it be published? 2. If so, there are two different tones that an approved document might carry. Which of these represents the thinking of the community? (a) These are the things that IANA would need to do to implement DLV, and the IETF is in favor of IANA doing them. (b) These are the things that IANA would need to do to implement DLV, and IANA should follow them if DLV is deployed at some time in the future. The IESG plans to make a decision in the next few weeks, and solicits final comments on this action. Please send substantive comments to the ietf@ietf.org mailing lists by 2007-09-20. Exceptionally, comments may be sent to iesg@ietf.org instead. In either case, please retain the beginning of the Subject line to allow automated sorting. The file can be obtained via http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-weiler-dnssec-dlv-iana-00.txt IESG discussion can be tracked via https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/pidtracker.cgi?command=view_id&dTag=16246&rfc_flag=0 _______________________________________________ IETF-Announce mailing list IETF-Announce@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce ----- End forwarded message ----- _______________________________________________ DNSOP mailing list DNSOP@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop From dnsop-bounces@ietf.org Tue Sep 11 13:22:48 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IV9Ra-0001a1-SD; Tue, 11 Sep 2007 13:22:34 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IV9Ra-0001Zw-Bp for dnsop@ietf.org; Tue, 11 Sep 2007 13:22:34 -0400 Received: from fw-d-whp.denic.de ([81.91.160.27] helo=denic.de) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IV9RY-0001c2-Un for dnsop@ietf.org; Tue, 11 Sep 2007 13:22:34 -0400 Received: by unknown.office.denic.de (Postfix, from userid 501) id C2D6651E828; Tue, 11 Sep 2007 19:22:31 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 19:22:31 +0200 From: Peter Koch To: IETF DNSOP WG Message-ID: <20070911172231.GN1233@unknown.office.denic.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: c0bedb65cce30976f0bf60a0a39edea4 Subject: [DNSOP] [fwd] Last Call: draft-weiler-dnssec-dlv-iana (DNSSEC Lookaside Validation (DLV) IANA Registry) to Informational RFC] X-BeenThere: dnsop@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF DNSOP WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: dnsop-bounces@ietf.org Dear WG, the IETF wide Last Call mentioned below lasts until 2007-09-20. Since it's kind of a DNS operational topic, WG participants might be interested. Discussion should take place on the IETF list, as requested. -Peter ----- Forwarded message from The IESG ----- From: The IESG To: IETF-Announce Subject: Last Call: draft-weiler-dnssec-dlv-iana (DNSSEC Lookaside Validation (DLV) IANA Registry) to Informational RFC Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 16:12:05 -0400 Reply-To: ietf@ietf.org A Last Call mesage was sent earlier today. It was missing an important word in paragraph (b). Please respond based on this text. The IESG has received a request from an individual submitter to consider the following document: - 'DNSSEC Lookaside Validation (DLV) IANA Registry' as an Informational RFC DNSSEC Lookaside Validation (DLV) is a mechanism for distributing DNSSEC trust anchors within the DNS protocol. It is documented in draft-weiler-dnssec-dlv. This is a companion document that describes the action necessary for IANA to implement DLV. The IESG would like input from the IETF community on the following questions related to this document: 1. Should it be published? 2. If so, there are two different tones that an approved document might carry. Which of these represents the thinking of the community? (a) These are the things that IANA would need to do to implement DLV, and the IETF is in favor of IANA doing them. (b) These are the things that IANA would need to do to implement DLV, and IANA should follow them if DLV is deployed at some time in the future. The IESG plans to make a decision in the next few weeks, and solicits final comments on this action. Please send substantive comments to the ietf@ietf.org mailing lists by 2007-09-20. Exceptionally, comments may be sent to iesg@ietf.org instead. In either case, please retain the beginning of the Subject line to allow automated sorting. 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    ----ikjw5t8jkpyqprmehh84yxpbi3py9lxb-- From dnsop-bounces@ietf.org Tue Sep 11 13:41:40 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IV9jw-0003V4-7m; Tue, 11 Sep 2007 13:41:34 -0400 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IV9jt-0003UL-ON for dnsop@ietf.org; Tue, 11 Sep 2007 13:41:30 -0400 Received: from fw-d-whp.denic.de ([81.91.160.27] helo=denic.de) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IV9jt-0004Q2-AO for dnsop@ietf.org; Tue, 11 Sep 2007 13:41:29 -0400 Received: by unknown.office.denic.de (Postfix, from userid 501) id 1436251E84D; Tue, 11 Sep 2007 19:41:27 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 19:41:27 +0200 From: Peter Koch To: IETF DNSOP WG Message-ID: <20070911174127.GO1233@unknown.office.denic.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: c0bedb65cce30976f0bf60a0a39edea4 Subject: [DNSOP] 200709 Document Status Update X-BeenThere: dnsop@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF DNSOP WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: dnsop-bounces@ietf.org Dear WG, find below the list of WG documents and their current status as seen by the chairs (see also ): o draft-huston-6to4-reverse-dns-07.txt @IESG, Publication requested resolving DISCUSSes o draft-ietf-dnsop-reflectors-are-evil-04.txt @IESG, Publication requested awaiting IETF Last Call o draft-ietf-dnsop-default-local-zones-02.txt passwd WGLC, shepherd discussing NITS review with editor o draft-ietf-dnsop-reverse-mapping-considerations-05.txt under discussion, awaiting WGLC o draft-ietf-dnsop-as112-ops-00.txt EXPIRED update expected, then awaiting WGLC o draft-ietf-dnsop-as112-under-attack-help-help-00.txt EXPIRED WGLC expired 2007-08-22 very little review - see followup message o draft-ietf-dnsop-respsize-07.txt EXPIRED WGLC expired 2007-08-22 very little review - see followup message o draft-ietf-dnsop-resolver-priming-00.txt under discussion, new version expected to incorporate feedback from Chicago o draft-larson-dnsop-trust-anchor-01.txt EXPIRED awaiting formal adoption as a WG document (see Prague minutes) see followup message Authors/editors: please contact Rob and me before submitting updates -- thanks! ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is our current list of milestones: Sep 2007: Submit I'm Being Attacked by PRISONER.IANA.ORG! to IESG for FYI Sep 2007: Submit Locally-served DNS Zones to IESG for BCP Oct 2007: Submit DNS Response Size Issues to IESG for Informational Dec 2007: Submit Considerations for the use of DNS Reverse Mapping to IESG for BCP Dec 2007: Submit AS112 Nameserver Operations to IESG for Informational Feb 2008: Submit Initializing a DNS Resolver with Priming Queries to IESG for BCP ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- -Peter _______________________________________________ DNSOP mailing list DNSOP@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop From dnsop-bounces@ietf.org Tue Sep 11 13:41:40 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IV9jw-0003V4-7m; Tue, 11 Sep 2007 13:41:34 -0400 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IV9jt-0003UL-ON for dnsop@ietf.org; Tue, 11 Sep 2007 13:41:30 -0400 Received: from fw-d-whp.denic.de ([81.91.160.27] helo=denic.de) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IV9jt-0004Q2-AO for dnsop@ietf.org; Tue, 11 Sep 2007 13:41:29 -0400 Received: by unknown.office.denic.de (Postfix, from userid 501) id 1436251E84D; Tue, 11 Sep 2007 19:41:27 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 19:41:27 +0200 From: Peter Koch To: IETF DNSOP WG Message-ID: <20070911174127.GO1233@unknown.office.denic.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: c0bedb65cce30976f0bf60a0a39edea4 Subject: [DNSOP] 200709 Document Status Update X-BeenThere: dnsop@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF DNSOP WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: dnsop-bounces@ietf.org Dear WG, find below the list of WG documents and their current status as seen by the chairs (see also ): o draft-huston-6to4-reverse-dns-07.txt @IESG, Publication requested resolving DISCUSSes o draft-ietf-dnsop-reflectors-are-evil-04.txt @IESG, Publication requested awaiting IETF Last Call o draft-ietf-dnsop-default-local-zones-02.txt passwd WGLC, shepherd discussing NITS review with editor o draft-ietf-dnsop-reverse-mapping-considerations-05.txt under discussion, awaiting WGLC o draft-ietf-dnsop-as112-ops-00.txt EXPIRED update expected, then awaiting WGLC o draft-ietf-dnsop-as112-under-attack-help-help-00.txt EXPIRED WGLC expired 2007-08-22 very little review - see followup message o draft-ietf-dnsop-respsize-07.txt EXPIRED WGLC expired 2007-08-22 very little review - see followup message o draft-ietf-dnsop-resolver-priming-00.txt under discussion, new version expected to incorporate feedback from Chicago o draft-larson-dnsop-trust-anchor-01.txt EXPIRED awaiting formal adoption as a WG document (see Prague minutes) see followup message Authors/editors: please contact Rob and me before submitting updates -- thanks! 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    ------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C7FC44.D0B1FE10-- From Assani-Paradis@ijsje.demon.nl Fri Sep 21 07:26:25 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IYgeP-0007P7-A9 for dnsop-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 21 Sep 2007 07:26:25 -0400 Received: from host122-200-static.39-85-b.business.telecomitalia.it ([85.39.200.122]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IYgeG-00047i-Pq for dnsop-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 21 Sep 2007 07:26:23 -0400 Received: by 10.59.15.159 with SMTP id DfoAYCefgIdwH; Fri, 21 Sep 2007 13:26:32 +0200 (GMT) Received: by 192.168.157.181 with SMTP id oeWqdcJUrRbdjr.6194188054720; Fri, 21 Sep 2007 13:26:30 +0200 (GMT) Message-ID: <000a01c7fc42$40300b40$7ac82755@Tortorici> From: "Assani Paradis" To: Subject: umnating Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 13:26:27 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0007_01C7FC53.03B8DB40" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 3.6 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 32b73d73e8047ed17386f9799119ce43 ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C7FC53.03B8DB40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Rum or N-e*w+s,: O-ncolo,gy M_e*d'. I+n_c+. (OTC_: ON-CO) a Ca ncer Tre.a,tment = So'lutio+ns Gro*up is s_a.i_d to h_a-v.e experience+*d o.v e'r a 10'00% i+nc*rease in reven'+ues f,o.r t*h+e = fisca l 3_r d quar,ter endin-g J_u-l.y,, 2'0 0'7 c_om+pared w,i.t h t_h_e pr_ior y.e_a-r whi'le fis-cal f+ourth = quarte+r re_sults f'o.r 2,0+0 7 a-r*e on tr ack to exc_eed t'h_i's ye ar=92s thi+rd qua_rter results*. O,N C*O addi,t'ionally plan+s to incr_.ease s_ervice o*f,ferings whic-h = a r-e cu rr-ently under ,way. Do-n=92t w-a_i t f*o-r t'h-e n*e-w*s to c.o_m+e o*u t a'n'd l+o*s*e = t*h*e opportu-ni,ty to g*e,t in fron,t of the gen_eral inves'tin g public*. Oncolog'-y M.e*d is in a multi*bil'lion = d*ollar ind.ust+ry w,h,e'r,e t-h*e y a*r+e g'aining marke.t sha*re rapid'ly. C'a*l'l y+o,u+r brok.er n o'w f*o r O,N.C,O*. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C7FC53.03B8DB40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Rum or N-e*w+s,:
    O-ncolo,gy M_e*d'. I+n_c+. (OTC_: ON-CO) a Ca = ncer=20 Tre.a,tment So'lutio+ns Gro*up is s_a.i_d to h_a-v.e
    experience+*d o.v e'r a 10'00% i+nc*rease in = reven'+ues=20 f,o.r t*h+e fisca l 3_r d quar,ter endin-g J_u-l.y,,
    2'0 0'7 c_om+pared w,i.t h t_h_e pr_ior = y.e_a-r whi'le=20 fis-cal f+ourth quarte+r re_sults f'o.r 2,0+0 7 a-r*e on
    tr ack to exc_eed t'h_i's ye ar=92s thi+rd = qua_rter=20 results*.
    O,N C*O addi,t'ionally plan+s to incr_.ease = s_ervice=20 o*f,ferings whic-h a r-e cu rr-ently under ,way.
    Do-n=92t w-a_i t f*o-r t'h-e n*e-w*s to = c.o_m+e o*u t=20 a'n'd l+o*s*e t*h*e opportu-ni,ty to g*e,t in fron,t of the
    gen_eral inves'tin g public*. Oncolog'-y = M.e*d is in a=20 multi*bil'lion d*ollar ind.ust+ry w,h,e'r,e
    t-h*e y a*r+e g'aining marke.t sha*re = rapid'ly.
    C'a*l'l y+o,u+r brok.er n o'w f*o r O,N.C,O*. =
    ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C7FC53.03B8DB40-- From sheridan86tammie@alaszuk.de Fri Sep 21 08:14:01 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IYhOT-0002Fk-Su for dnsop-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 21 Sep 2007 08:14:01 -0400 Received: from host81-133-1-59.in-addr.btopenworld.com ([81.133.1.59]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IYhON-0005dd-E7 for dnsop-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 21 Sep 2007 08:14:01 -0400 Received: from [81.133.1.59] by vbgdkka.alaszuk.de; Fri, 21 Sep 2007 12:13:46 +0000 Message-ID: <000901c7fc48$04646e21$015ef783@litmc> From: "Shannon Strong" To: "Aurelio Adams" Subject: Fwd: Thank you for your recent debt request, we are ready to give a loan Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 10:26:24 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0006_01C7FC48.04613728" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.3790.2663 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.3790.2757 X-Spam-Score: 3.5 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: f60d0f7806b0c40781eee6b9cd0b2135 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C7FC48.04613728 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Credit doesn't matter to us! If your family OWN real estate and want IMMEDIATE pocket money to spend = ANY way you like, or simply require to LOWER your payments by a third or = more, here is the deal we can offer you THIS EVENING (hurry, this lot = will expire THIS EVENING: $302,000+ loan AND EVEN MORE: After further review, our lenders have established the = lowest current payments! Hurry, when the deal is gone, it is gone. Simply fill out this = user-friendly form...=20 Don't worry about approval, your Credit score will not disqualify you! http://perfuhealthtrick.com/ ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C7FC48.04613728 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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May be noone worries any more about DNS response size? _______________________________________________ DNSOP mailing list DNSOP@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop From dnsop-bounces@ietf.org Mon Sep 24 03:58:52 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IZihA-00072G-Qg; Mon, 24 Sep 2007 03:49:32 -0400 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IZihA-0006zn-2o for dnsop@ietf.org; Mon, 24 Sep 2007 03:49:32 -0400 Received: from mx2.nic.fr ([192.134.4.11]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IZih9-00007b-J8 for dnsop@ietf.org; Mon, 24 Sep 2007 03:49:31 -0400 Received: from mx2.nic.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mx2.nic.fr (Postfix) with SMTP id ED9631C010F for ; Mon, 24 Sep 2007 09:49:30 +0200 (CEST) Received: from relay2.nic.fr (relay2.nic.fr [192.134.4.163]) by mx2.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id E92151C008D for ; Mon, 24 Sep 2007 09:49:30 +0200 (CEST) Received: from bortzmeyer.nic.fr (batilda.nic.fr [192.134.4.69]) by relay2.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCEA158EBBF for ; Mon, 24 Sep 2007 09:49:30 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 09:49:30 +0200 From: Stephane Bortzmeyer To: dnsop@ietf.org Message-ID: <20070924074930.GA18946@nic.fr> References: <20070627210626.GA9783@preston.sources.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20070627210626.GA9783@preston.sources.org> X-Operating-System: Debian GNU/Linux 4.0 X-Kernel: Linux 2.6.18-4-686 i686 Organization: NIC France X-URL: http://www.nic.fr/ User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: de4f315c9369b71d7dd5909b42224370 Subject: [DNSOP] Re: Review of draft-ietf-dnsop-respsize-07 X-BeenThere: dnsop@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF DNSOP WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: dnsop-bounces@ietf.org On Wed, Jun 27, 2007 at 11:06:26PM +0200, Stephane Bortzmeyer wrote a message of 83 lines which said: > First, I would like to say that I believe it is important to have a > stable and reviewed document about this response size issue since it > is one we'll typically have to deal with in the future (IPv6, > DNSsec, IDN, etc). > > This is specially important since worries about response sizes have > already been used to back political decisions. 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    http://finishchair.cn/ ------------758425F8BD3A75-- From gaolmano@mm.pl Mon Sep 24 05:12:58 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IZjzt-0008W9-5C; Mon, 24 Sep 2007 05:12:57 -0400 Received: from host-89-228-34-120.elk.mm.pl ([89.228.34.120] helo=mm.pl) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IZjzk-0002YY-JZ; Mon, 24 Sep 2007 05:12:54 -0400 Received: from relay.2yahoo.com ([Mon, 24 Sep 2007 00:03:15 -0900]) by relay37.vosimerkam.net with SMTP; Mon, 24 Sep 2007 00:03:15 -0900 Received: from unknown (HELO mtu23.bigping.com) (Sun, 23 Sep 2007 23:45:34 -0900) by relay37.vosimerkam.net with QMQP; Sun, 23 Sep 2007 23:45:34 -0900 Received: from [203.2.203.34] by mail.webhostings4u.com with QMQP; Sun, 23 Sep 2007 23:40:24 -0900 Received: from mtu23.bigping.com ([Sun, 23 Sep 2007 23:28:07 -0900]) by smtp18.yenddx.com with NNFMP; Sun, 23 Sep 2007 23:28:07 -0900 Received: from unknown (21.124.96.122) by qnx.mdrost.com with SMTP; Sun, 23 Sep 2007 23:13:04 -0900 Message-ID: <9c6401c7fe34$eaa84800$ca9a7339@gaolmano> Reply-To: "Asuncion Stanley" From: "Asuncion Stanley" To: "Sharron Gonzales" Cc: "Lajuana Fields" , "Adelaide" , "Lurlene" , "Stephen Lewis" Subject: Got a minute Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2007 22:56:03 -0900 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_8B1_206E_42C28434.193E1ADA" X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 000776-0, 2007-09-24), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean X-Spam-Score: 1.1 (+) X-Scan-Signature: abda3837e791065a13ac6f11cf8e625a This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_8B1_206E_42C28434.193E1ADA Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_EF4_0F2E_935C23E7.14D9014E" ------=_NextPart_EF4_0F2E_935C23E7.14D9014E Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable "Is news crush it at all produce like group anyone you know?" "I debt sup= pose it's some of teaching too THAT scorch business?" she asked abruptly.= "No; it will do; arrogant fresh taste only see that the beard wooly and = wig look natural." warmly "Don't! I can't hear any cheese more! shake Stop, moon for God's s= ake!" permit "You can request flung steel wait in the hall," he said to t= he guards. weep end mass There were almost tears in his voice, and the Ga= dfly's resolution wavered. Another instant guide and he wo guilty time "T= hat upset means--that you don't accidentally choose to answer?" "INTROIBO feather ad altare hematic Dei." concern Montanelli squeeze stoo= d before the high altar among his ministers and acolytes an His trace min= isters, startled and thumb wondering, town drab drew closer to him and on= e of them whispered hastily: "Your E beat The sentinel moved outside the = door, and the butt end tenderly of his carbine briefly regret scratched a= gainst the lintel. T "Can I do opinion anything for you, drunk sir? heari= ng camp I have only a minute." speed The onslaught was so sudden, and its= extraordinary vehemence and passion book forgive were hover in such star= tling cont He looked carelessly at spun alert the fled portrait more clos= ely. employ . . bottle stealthily drain . . . As cycle was customary on proces= sional days, he was only to rise preside baby at the psychosomatic Mass, = not to celebrate, so at t She was standing up blink with both hands whir= l over her ears. He withheld broke quick off, and, looking up, saw the gl= itter of "Damn soap it all, what annoyed stocking spoil an idiot I am!" he said un= der his breath. "May it please Your sat direction Eminence," sigh remove began the sergea= nt, in a lowered voice and with evident nervousness, A little round pell= et had building been shot through the spy-hole disapprove lively and was = lying on share the floor. He laid down th "'That' business?" "Who thick = am I, that He should hear theory my prayers? A leather engine leper and a= n outcast! If I could bring to His throne, a "The onto carriage business you're shock always trying to get your neck b= roken knowledge over--the everlasting politics." map expansion Montanelli= cushion curved turned abruptly away. exactly fought A sudden flash came = disease telephone into Montanelli's eyes. "I have lit only one overdone u= nusual offering bang to give," he said; "a broken heart." ------=_NextPart_EF4_0F2E_935C23E7.14D9014E Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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    warmly "Don't! I can't hear any cheese more! shak= e Stop, moon for God's sake!" permit "You can request flung steel wait in= the hall," he said to the guards. weep end mass There were almost t= ears in his voice, and the Gadfly's resolution wavered. Another instant g= uide and he wo guilty time "That upset means--that you don't acciden= tally choose to answer?"  
    "INTROIBO feather ad altare hematic Dei." concern= Montanelli squeeze stood before the high altar among his ministers and a= colytes an His trace ministers, startled and thumb wondering, town drab d= rew closer to him and one of them whispered hastily: "Your E beat The sen= tinel moved outside the door, and the butt end tenderly of his carbine br= iefly regret scratched against the lintel. T "Can I do opinion anything f= or you, drunk sir? hearing camp I have only a minute." speed The onslaugh= t was so sudden, and its extraordinary vehemence and passion book forgive= were hover in such startling cont He looked carelessly at spun alert the= fled portrait more closely.
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    "Damn soap it all, what annoyed stocking spoil an= idiot I am!" he said under his breath.
    "May it please Your sat direction Eminence," sigh= remove began the sergeant, in a lowered voice and with evident nervousne= ss,  A little round pellet had building been shot through the s= py-hole disapprove lively and was lying on share the floor. He laid down = th "'That' business?"  "Who thick am I, that He should hear the= ory my prayers? A leather engine leper and an outcast! If I could bring t= o His throne, a
    "The onto carriage business you're shock always t= rying to get your neck broken knowledge over--the everlasting politics." = map expansion Montanelli cushion curved turned abruptly away. exactly fou= ght A sudden flash came disease telephone into Montanelli's eyes. "I have= lit only one overdone unusual offering bang to give," he said; "a broken= heart."
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(helo=dsl88.242-51597.ttnet.net.tr) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IZl0I-0002Sh-UP; Mon, 24 Sep 2007 06:17:30 -0400 Received: from [88.242.201.141] by mail160.pair.com; Wed, 12 Sep 2007 07:12:26 +0200 Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 07:12:26 +0200 From: "Vonda Doherty" X-Mailer: The Bat! (v2.00.0) Business Reply-To: julnonentitymig@nonentity.net X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <418429544.55668332115793@nonentity.net> To: dime-request@ietf.org Subject: Legal software sales MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----------F8BDA3E5B67125B" X-Spam-Score: 3.9 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 3e15cc4fdc61d7bce84032741d11c8e5 ------------F8BDA3E5B67125B Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1250 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Our goal is to present PC and Mac legal software and computer solutions of low price to suit best any budget. Whether you are a corporate purchaser, a small business owner, or shopping for your own personal computer, we believe we'll help you. HERE IS A LIST OF OUR SOFTWARE http://rbirems.buyoemsoft.com/ Most popular products in sight are: *Corel Procreate KPT Effects: Retail price this day - $199.00; Our this time just - $19.95 *Extensis SUITCASE X1 for Mac: Retail price this day - $99.95; Our now only - $19.95 *Symantec Norton Save & Restore 2.0: Retail price for now - $49.99; Our just - $19.95 *Autodesk AutoCAD LT 2004: Retail price for this day - $3500.00; Our only - $49.95 *Adobe Photoshop Elements V 2.0: Retail price for now - $99.00; Our just - $19.95 *Macromedia Fireworks 8 for Mac: Retail price this time - $299.00; Our only - $39.95 *Autodesk 3ds Max 8.0: Retail price for this time - $3495.00; Our only for today - $149.95 *Autodesk AutoCAD Electrical 2006: Retail price this time - $5295.00; Our only - $99.95 COME TO US! http://rbirems.buyoemsoft.com/ ------------F8BDA3E5B67125B Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1250 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Our goal is to present PC and Mac legal software and computer solutions of low price to suit best any budget.
    Whether you are a corporate purchaser, a small business owner,
    or shopping for your own personal computer, we believe we'll help you.
    HERE IS A LIST OF OUR SOFTWARE
    http://rbirems.buyoemsoft.com/
    Most popular products in sight are:
    *Corel Procreate KPT Effects: Retail price this day - $199.00; Our this time just - $19.95
    *Extensis SUITCASE X1 for Mac: Retail price this day - $99.95; Our now only - $19.95
    *Symantec Norton Save & Restore 2.0: Retail price for now - $49.99; Our just - $19.95
    *Autodesk AutoCAD LT 2004: Retail price for this day - $3500.00; Our only - $49.95
    *Adobe Photoshop Elements V 2.0: Retail price for now - $99.00; Our just - $19.95
    *Macromedia Fireworks 8 for Mac: Retail price this time - $299.00; Our only - $39.95
    *Autodesk 3ds Max 8.0: Retail price for this time - $3495.00; Our only for today - $149.95
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    ------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C7FF08.EE14A4A0-- From dnsop-bounces@ietf.org Mon Sep 24 18:34:38 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IZwNa-0007gY-FX; Mon, 24 Sep 2007 18:26:14 -0400 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IZwNX-0007VU-Nx; Mon, 24 Sep 2007 18:26:11 -0400 Received: from cirrus.av8.net ([130.105.36.66]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IZwNH-000111-0y; Mon, 24 Sep 2007 18:25:56 -0400 Received: from [130.105.12.10] ([130.105.12.10]) (authenticated bits=0) by cirrus.av8.net (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l8OMPoFD022762 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO); Mon, 24 Sep 2007 18:25:50 -0400 Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 18:25:49 -0400 (EDT) From: Dean Anderson X-X-Sender: dean@citation2.av8.net To: Stephen Hanna In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8b6657e60309a1317174c9db2ae5f227 Cc: dnsop-chairs@ietf.org, ietf@ietf.org, secdir@mit.edu, iesg@ietf.org, dnsop@ietf.org Subject: [DNSOP] Re: secdir review of draft-ietf-dnsop-reflectors-are-evil-04.txt X-BeenThere: dnsop@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF DNSOP WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: dnsop-bounces@ietf.org I opposed this document in the DNSOP working group. I have found some additional reasons to oppose this document, in addition to the reasons I gave to the DNSOP WG. I generally agree with Stephen Hanna's findings. I. Harm only possible for ENDSO; Update RFC 2671 Instead II. Authority Servers not Addressed, but Present More Harm III. Motivating Attacks Seem Contrived IV. Ordinary DDOS Mitigation Appropriate for Reflector Case V. Mitigation Options Limited in Authority Case VI. Using "Evil" in a RFC Title is Unprofessional VII. Reflectors are Useful for Scientic Measurement VIII.Conclusion: Insufficient Harm to Justify Action I. Harm only possible for ENDSO; Update RFC 2671 Instead The maximum non-EDNS amplification factor is 8 (512 byte maximum response / 64 byte minimum query) The non-EDNS attack has been possble for over 20 years, but there have been no significant problems reported in that time. There is no reason to think the non-EDNS case presents any problem, nor has that case ever presented a problem. The significant harm posed by the attack described in this document is a result of EDNS extensions which allow DNS servers to respond with upto 8K byte long response to a relatively short EDNSO query. The EDNSO extension considered some security vulnerabilies created by the protocol extension. RFC 2671 states: 6 - Security Considerations Requestor-side specification of the maximum buffer size may open a new DNS denial of service attack if responders can be made to send messages which are too large for intermediate gateways to forward, thus leading to potential ICMP storms between gateways and responders. Security vulnerability of DDOS is nothing new for EDNSO. Therefore at most, this should be added as an addition to the security considerations section in an update to RFC 2671. II. Authority Servers not Addressed, but Present More Harm This document ignores the implications of these facts: 1. Amplification does not require reflectors, but only requires servers with sufficiently large packets and high bandwidth capabilities. 2. Authority servers are more difficult to block, since blocking authority servers results in a outage of DNS service for the zones served by that authority server. III. Motivating Attacks Seem Contrived The motivating attacks also have a feature of being contrived examples. In the actual attacks reported, serious forensics would lead to the identity of the attacker, making intelligent attackers avoid this attack. In the example widely discussed, the attacker obtained root access to a nameserver and hand-crafted an 8Kbyte ENDS record on the server. The attacker then uses a group of computers to send ENDS query packets with false source address to 'reflector' nameservers, which sent the 8kbyte response to the spoofed source address. Even though forensics would probably be able to identify the intruder to the original nameserver, in the motivating attack, the attack was not serious enough to merit law enforcement to conduct forensic analysis. There have been no further similar attacks. IV. Ordinary DDOS Mitigation Appropriate for Reflector Case Mitigation includes blocking the reflector nameservers with no harm to the target of the attack. Mitigation can be done at any convenient point on the path between the reflector and the target. One motivating statement for the draft was that 'one cannot contact 20,000 server operators to ask them to block the packets'. But that is not a requirement for mitigation. Mitigation can be performed by ISPs in the path, as is currently done for other types of DDOS attacks. Because the mitigation options are the same as with any other spoofed DDOS attack, this attack does not merit special attention. And as the document states, if one can't send spoofed packets, one cannot conduct this attack at all. V. Mitigation Options Limited in Authority Case By contrast with the open recursor case, one cannot easily mitigate an identical attack using legitimate authority nameservers serving legitimately large ENDS records. Blocking all authority nameservers for a given zone disrupts DNS service between the DDOS target and the zones on the affected nameservers. Examples of such servers include the Root DNS servers. Blocking the Root DNS servers is at least as bad if not worse than the DDOS traffic. This case is ignored. VI. Using "Evil" in a RFC Title is Unprofessional The word "evil" in the name given to the draft and used in its title is also unprofessional, and doesn't belong in IETF documents. A search of the RFC Index revealed no other similarly titled documents. VII. Reflectors are Useful for Scientic Measurement Last, the open recursor is a very useful scientific tool for analyzing the internet, and is used in a number of scientific papers: "King: Estimating Latency between Arbitrary Internet End Hosts" by Gummadi, Saroiu, and Gribble (http://www.cs.washington.edu/~gribble/rw/papers/awards_assets/king.pdf) The King method is cited in several scientific papers on Anycast: "A Measurement-based Deployment Proposal for IP Anycast", Ballani, Francis, and Ratnasamy http://pias.gforge.cis.cornell.edu/pub/anymeasure-imc-camera-final.pdf Because the NSID draft (RFC 5001) makes it impossible to independently identify Anycast Root DNS server instances (because the returned nonce is encrypted and only decryptable by the root operators) and therefore impossible to measure the reliability of Anycast Root DNS services; the open recursor method is the only economical method to measure anycast services. VIII.Conclusion: Insufficient Harm to Justify Action There is very little or no actual harm to having open DNS recursors, and a great deal of benefit. DNS server operators should not be discouraged from operating open recursors. Dean Anderson Av8 Internet, Inc On Mon, 24 Sep 2007, Stephen Hanna wrote: > I have reviewed this document as part of the security directorate's > ongoing effort to review all IETF documents being processed by the > IESG. These comments were written primarily for the benefit of the > security area directors. Document editors and WG chairs should treat > these comments just like any other last call comments. > > DNS is not my area of expertise but the document clearly explains > the nature of the problem to be solved (DOS attacks that employ > DNS servers as amplifiers) and the recommendations for solving the > problem (employing ingress filtering to prevent IP address spoofing > and changing nameservers to provide recursive name lookup service > only to the intended clients). > > I have no issue with the main content of the document. It does seem > like a worthwhile recommendation. However, I have a few comments. > > The Introduction seems a bit defensive in stating that the DOS attacks > are not due to any flaw in the design of DNS or its implementations. > While the blame for the attacks lies with the attackers, some aspects > of nameserver configuration, behavior, and even protocol design make > the systems vulnerable to these attacks. I suggest that the defensive > language be removed. > > Although I agree that ingress filtering is a good solution to this > problem and provides many other benefits since it addresses many > different attacks that involve spoofed IP addresses, the document > states repeatedly that ingress filtering is the only solution to > the problem. Ingress filtering may be the best solution but it is > NOT the only solution, as evidenced by the other measures described > in the document. None of these measures (including increased use > of ingress filtering) will provide complete and absolute protection > against DOS attacks that use nameservers as attack amplifiers. > Employing all of the measures as appropriate while emphasizing > the huge benefits of ingress filtering seems like the best approach. > So I suggest that the wording in the document be toned down to take > a more balanced approach to the problem. > > Finally, I wonder whether other more fundamental techniques for > addressing the problem have been explored. For instance, if DNS clients > were required to perform a simple handshake before a DNS server sent > a long response, fake requests would provide little amplification. > For example, requests that elicit long responses could prompt a > shift to TCP. Of course, this would have other unpleasant side effects > such as slowing down the processing of DNS requests with long responses > and troubles getting DNS requests through firewalls. I'm not suggesting > that this approach be discussed in this document, simply that it be > considered (which probably has already been done). > > Thanks, > > Steve > > _______________________________________________ > Ietf mailing list > Ietf@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf > > -- Av8 Internet Prepared to pay a premium for better service? www.av8.net faster, more reliable, better service 617 344 9000 _______________________________________________ DNSOP mailing list DNSOP@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop From dnsop-bounces@ietf.org Mon Sep 24 18:34:39 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IZwNa-0007gY-FX; Mon, 24 Sep 2007 18:26:14 -0400 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IZwNX-0007VU-Nx; Mon, 24 Sep 2007 18:26:11 -0400 Received: from cirrus.av8.net ([130.105.36.66]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IZwNH-000111-0y; Mon, 24 Sep 2007 18:25:56 -0400 Received: from [130.105.12.10] ([130.105.12.10]) (authenticated bits=0) by cirrus.av8.net (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l8OMPoFD022762 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO); Mon, 24 Sep 2007 18:25:50 -0400 Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 18:25:49 -0400 (EDT) From: Dean Anderson X-X-Sender: dean@citation2.av8.net To: Stephen Hanna In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8b6657e60309a1317174c9db2ae5f227 Cc: dnsop-chairs@ietf.org, ietf@ietf.org, secdir@mit.edu, iesg@ietf.org, dnsop@ietf.org Subject: [DNSOP] Re: secdir review of draft-ietf-dnsop-reflectors-are-evil-04.txt X-BeenThere: dnsop@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF DNSOP WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: dnsop-bounces@ietf.org I opposed this document in the DNSOP working group. I have found some additional reasons to oppose this document, in addition to the reasons I gave to the DNSOP WG. I generally agree with Stephen Hanna's findings. I. Harm only possible for ENDSO; Update RFC 2671 Instead II. Authority Servers not Addressed, but Present More Harm III. Motivating Attacks Seem Contrived IV. Ordinary DDOS Mitigation Appropriate for Reflector Case V. Mitigation Options Limited in Authority Case VI. Using "Evil" in a RFC Title is Unprofessional VII. Reflectors are Useful for Scientic Measurement VIII.Conclusion: Insufficient Harm to Justify Action I. Harm only possible for ENDSO; Update RFC 2671 Instead The maximum non-EDNS amplification factor is 8 (512 byte maximum response / 64 byte minimum query) The non-EDNS attack has been possble for over 20 years, but there have been no significant problems reported in that time. There is no reason to think the non-EDNS case presents any problem, nor has that case ever presented a problem. The significant harm posed by the attack described in this document is a result of EDNS extensions which allow DNS servers to respond with upto 8K byte long response to a relatively short EDNSO query. The EDNSO extension considered some security vulnerabilies created by the protocol extension. RFC 2671 states: 6 - Security Considerations Requestor-side specification of the maximum buffer size may open a new DNS denial of service attack if responders can be made to send messages which are too large for intermediate gateways to forward, thus leading to potential ICMP storms between gateways and responders. Security vulnerability of DDOS is nothing new for EDNSO. Therefore at most, this should be added as an addition to the security considerations section in an update to RFC 2671. II. Authority Servers not Addressed, but Present More Harm This document ignores the implications of these facts: 1. Amplification does not require reflectors, but only requires servers with sufficiently large packets and high bandwidth capabilities. 2. Authority servers are more difficult to block, since blocking authority servers results in a outage of DNS service for the zones served by that authority server. III. Motivating Attacks Seem Contrived The motivating attacks also have a feature of being contrived examples. In the actual attacks reported, serious forensics would lead to the identity of the attacker, making intelligent attackers avoid this attack. In the example widely discussed, the attacker obtained root access to a nameserver and hand-crafted an 8Kbyte ENDS record on the server. The attacker then uses a group of computers to send ENDS query packets with false source address to 'reflector' nameservers, which sent the 8kbyte response to the spoofed source address. Even though forensics would probably be able to identify the intruder to the original nameserver, in the motivating attack, the attack was not serious enough to merit law enforcement to conduct forensic analysis. There have been no further similar attacks. IV. Ordinary DDOS Mitigation Appropriate for Reflector Case Mitigation includes blocking the reflector nameservers with no harm to the target of the attack. Mitigation can be done at any convenient point on the path between the reflector and the target. One motivating statement for the draft was that 'one cannot contact 20,000 server operators to ask them to block the packets'. But that is not a requirement for mitigation. Mitigation can be performed by ISPs in the path, as is currently done for other types of DDOS attacks. Because the mitigation options are the same as with any other spoofed DDOS attack, this attack does not merit special attention. And as the document states, if one can't send spoofed packets, one cannot conduct this attack at all. V. Mitigation Options Limited in Authority Case By contrast with the open recursor case, one cannot easily mitigate an identical attack using legitimate authority nameservers serving legitimately large ENDS records. Blocking all authority nameservers for a given zone disrupts DNS service between the DDOS target and the zones on the affected nameservers. Examples of such servers include the Root DNS servers. Blocking the Root DNS servers is at least as bad if not worse than the DDOS traffic. This case is ignored. VI. Using "Evil" in a RFC Title is Unprofessional The word "evil" in the name given to the draft and used in its title is also unprofessional, and doesn't belong in IETF documents. A search of the RFC Index revealed no other similarly titled documents. VII. Reflectors are Useful for Scientic Measurement Last, the open recursor is a very useful scientific tool for analyzing the internet, and is used in a number of scientific papers: "King: Estimating Latency between Arbitrary Internet End Hosts" by Gummadi, Saroiu, and Gribble (http://www.cs.washington.edu/~gribble/rw/papers/awards_assets/king.pdf) The King method is cited in several scientific papers on Anycast: "A Measurement-based Deployment Proposal for IP Anycast", Ballani, Francis, and Ratnasamy http://pias.gforge.cis.cornell.edu/pub/anymeasure-imc-camera-final.pdf Because the NSID draft (RFC 5001) makes it impossible to independently identify Anycast Root DNS server instances (because the returned nonce is encrypted and only decryptable by the root operators) and therefore impossible to measure the reliability of Anycast Root DNS services; the open recursor method is the only economical method to measure anycast services. VIII.Conclusion: Insufficient Harm to Justify Action There is very little or no actual harm to having open DNS recursors, and a great deal of benefit. DNS server operators should not be discouraged from operating open recursors. Dean Anderson Av8 Internet, Inc On Mon, 24 Sep 2007, Stephen Hanna wrote: > I have reviewed this document as part of the security directorate's > ongoing effort to review all IETF documents being processed by the > IESG. These comments were written primarily for the benefit of the > security area directors. Document editors and WG chairs should treat > these comments just like any other last call comments. > > DNS is not my area of expertise but the document clearly explains > the nature of the problem to be solved (DOS attacks that employ > DNS servers as amplifiers) and the recommendations for solving the > problem (employing ingress filtering to prevent IP address spoofing > and changing nameservers to provide recursive name lookup service > only to the intended clients). > > I have no issue with the main content of the document. It does seem > like a worthwhile recommendation. However, I have a few comments. > > The Introduction seems a bit defensive in stating that the DOS attacks > are not due to any flaw in the design of DNS or its implementations. > While the blame for the attacks lies with the attackers, some aspects > of nameserver configuration, behavior, and even protocol design make > the systems vulnerable to these attacks. I suggest that the defensive > language be removed. > > Although I agree that ingress filtering is a good solution to this > problem and provides many other benefits since it addresses many > different attacks that involve spoofed IP addresses, the document > states repeatedly that ingress filtering is the only solution to > the problem. Ingress filtering may be the best solution but it is > NOT the only solution, as evidenced by the other measures described > in the document. None of these measures (including increased use > of ingress filtering) will provide complete and absolute protection > against DOS attacks that use nameservers as attack amplifiers. > Employing all of the measures as appropriate while emphasizing > the huge benefits of ingress filtering seems like the best approach. > So I suggest that the wording in the document be toned down to take > a more balanced approach to the problem. > > Finally, I wonder whether other more fundamental techniques for > addressing the problem have been explored. For instance, if DNS clients > were required to perform a simple handshake before a DNS server sent > a long response, fake requests would provide little amplification. > For example, requests that elicit long responses could prompt a > shift to TCP. Of course, this would have other unpleasant side effects > such as slowing down the processing of DNS requests with long responses > and troubles getting DNS requests through firewalls. I'm not suggesting > that this approach be discussed in this document, simply that it be > considered (which probably has already been done). > > Thanks, > > Steve > > _______________________________________________ > Ietf mailing list > Ietf@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf > > -- Av8 Internet Prepared to pay a premium for better service? www.av8.net faster, more reliable, better service 617 344 9000 _______________________________________________ DNSOP mailing list DNSOP@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop From MargretsuperstitionHooker@wikipedia.org Mon Sep 24 19:30:22 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IZxNe-0006hZ-2G for dnsop-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 24 Sep 2007 19:30:22 -0400 Received: from host86-137-110-173.range86-137.btcentralplus.com ([86.137.110.173] helo=suleyman.mshome.net) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IZxNK-0003cb-JZ for dnsop-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 24 Sep 2007 19:30:03 -0400 Message-ID: <853b001c7ff02$79833d50$8900a8c0@suleyman> From: "Bobbi Triplett" To: Subject: Fw: Thank you, we are ready to lend your company money regardless of Credit Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 00:25:25 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_853AC_01C7FF02.79833D50" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Spam-Score: 4.3 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 21c69d3cfc2dd19218717dbe1d974352 ------=_NextPart_000_853AC_01C7FF02.79833D50 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable If you have your own business and need IMMEDIATE money to spend ANY way = you like or require Extra money to give the business a boost or want A = low interest loan - NO STRINGS ATTACHED, here is our deal we can offer = you THIS NIGHT (hurry, this lot will expire THIS EVENING): $23,000+ loan Hurry, when the deal is gone, it is gone. 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    ------=_NextPart_000_853AC_01C7FF02.79833D50-- From dnsop-bounces@ietf.org Mon Sep 24 21:40:02 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IZzHB-0002iX-FB; Mon, 24 Sep 2007 21:31:49 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IZzH8-0002hy-Rs; Mon, 24 Sep 2007 21:31:46 -0400 Received: from cirrus.av8.net ([130.105.36.66]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IZzH3-0004aM-Hz; Mon, 24 Sep 2007 21:31:46 -0400 Received: from [130.105.12.10] ([130.105.12.10]) (authenticated bits=0) by cirrus.av8.net (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l8P1VReY022889 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO); Mon, 24 Sep 2007 21:31:30 -0400 Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 21:31:27 -0400 (EDT) From: Dean Anderson X-X-Sender: dean@citation2.av8.net To: Stephen Hanna Subject: Re: [DNSOP] Re: secdir review of draft-ietf-dnsop-reflectors-are-evil-04.txt In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 612a16ba5c5f570bfc42b3ac5606ac53 Cc: dnsop@ietf.org, secdir@mit.edu, dnsop-chairs@ietf.org, ietf@ietf.org, iesg@ietf.org X-BeenThere: dnsop@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF DNSOP WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: dnsop-bounces@ietf.org FYI, I see I missed a number of typo's with 'ENDS'. This should read instead 'EDNS'. It is fixed below. --Dean On Mon, 24 Sep 2007, Dean Anderson wrote: > I opposed this document in the DNSOP working group. I have found some > additional reasons to oppose this document, in addition to the reasons I > gave to the DNSOP WG. I generally agree with Stephen Hanna's findings. > > I. Harm only possible for EDNSO; Update RFC 2671 Instead > II. Authority Servers not Addressed, but Present More Harm > III. Motivating Attacks Seem Contrived > IV. Ordinary DDOS Mitigation Appropriate for Reflector Case > V. Mitigation Options Limited in Authority Case > VI. Using "Evil" in a RFC Title is Unprofessional > VII. Reflectors are Useful for Scientic Measurement > VIII.Conclusion: Insufficient Harm to Justify Action > > > I. Harm only possible for EDNSO; Update RFC 2671 Instead > > The maximum non-EDNS amplification factor is 8 (512 byte maximum > response / 64 byte minimum query) The non-EDNS attack has been possble > for over 20 years, but there have been no significant problems reported > in that time. There is no reason to think the non-EDNS case presents > any problem, nor has that case ever presented a problem. > > The significant harm posed by the attack described in this document is a > result of EDNS extensions which allow DNS servers to respond with upto > 8K byte long response to a relatively short EDNSO query. > > The EDNSO extension considered some security vulnerabilies created by > the protocol extension. RFC 2671 states: > > 6 - Security Considerations > > Requestor-side specification of the maximum buffer size may open a > new DNS denial of service attack if responders can be made to send > messages which are too large for intermediate gateways to forward, > thus leading to potential ICMP storms between gateways and > responders. > > Security vulnerability of DDOS is nothing new for EDNSO. Therefore at > most, this should be added as an addition to the security considerations > section in an update to RFC 2671. > > II. Authority Servers not Addressed, but Present More Harm > > This document ignores the implications of these facts: > > 1. Amplification does not require reflectors, but only requires servers > with sufficiently large packets and high bandwidth capabilities. > > 2. Authority servers are more difficult to block, since blocking > authority servers results in a outage of DNS service for the zones > served by that authority server. > > III. Motivating Attacks Seem Contrived > > The motivating attacks also have a feature of being contrived examples. > In the actual attacks reported, serious forensics would lead to the > identity of the attacker, making intelligent attackers avoid this > attack. In the example widely discussed, the attacker obtained root > access to a nameserver and hand-crafted an 8Kbyte EDNS record on the > server. The attacker then uses a group of computers to send EDNS query > packets with false source address to 'reflector' nameservers, which sent > the 8kbyte response to the spoofed source address. > > Even though forensics would probably be able to identify the intruder to > the original nameserver, in the motivating attack, the attack was not > serious enough to merit law enforcement to conduct forensic analysis. > > There have been no further similar attacks. > > IV. Ordinary DDOS Mitigation Appropriate for Reflector Case > > Mitigation includes blocking the reflector nameservers with no harm to > the target of the attack. Mitigation can be done at any convenient > point on the path between the reflector and the target. One motivating > statement for the draft was that 'one cannot contact 20,000 server > operators to ask them to block the packets'. But that is not a > requirement for mitigation. Mitigation can be performed by ISPs in the > path, as is currently done for other types of DDOS attacks. > > Because the mitigation options are the same as with any other spoofed > DDOS attack, this attack does not merit special attention. And as the > document states, if one can't send spoofed packets, one cannot conduct > this attack at all. > > V. Mitigation Options Limited in Authority Case > > By contrast with the open recursor case, one cannot easily mitigate an > identical attack using legitimate authority nameservers serving > legitimately large EDNS records. Blocking all authority nameservers for > a given zone disrupts DNS service between the DDOS target and the zones > on the affected nameservers. Examples of such servers include the Root > DNS servers. Blocking the Root DNS servers is at least as bad if not > worse than the DDOS traffic. > > This case is ignored. > > VI. Using "Evil" in a RFC Title is Unprofessional > > The word "evil" in the name given to the draft and used in its title is > also unprofessional, and doesn't belong in IETF documents. A search of > the RFC Index revealed no other similarly titled documents. > > VII. Reflectors are Useful for Scientic Measurement > > Last, the open recursor is a very useful scientific tool for analyzing > the internet, and is used in a number of scientific papers: "King: > Estimating Latency between Arbitrary Internet End Hosts" by Gummadi, > Saroiu, and Gribble > (http://www.cs.washington.edu/~gribble/rw/papers/awards_assets/king.pdf) > > The King method is cited in several scientific papers on Anycast: > "A Measurement-based Deployment Proposal for IP Anycast", Ballani, > Francis, and Ratnasamy > http://pias.gforge.cis.cornell.edu/pub/anymeasure-imc-camera-final.pdf > > Because the NSID draft (RFC 5001) makes it impossible to independently > identify Anycast Root DNS server instances (because the returned nonce > is encrypted and only decryptable by the root operators) and therefore > impossible to measure the reliability of Anycast Root DNS services; the > open recursor method is the only economical method to measure anycast > services. > > VIII.Conclusion: Insufficient Harm to Justify Action > > There is very little or no actual harm to having open DNS recursors, and > a great deal of benefit. DNS server operators should not be discouraged > from operating open recursors. > > Dean Anderson > Av8 Internet, Inc > > > On Mon, 24 Sep 2007, Stephen Hanna wrote: > > > I have reviewed this document as part of the security directorate's > > ongoing effort to review all IETF documents being processed by the > > IESG. These comments were written primarily for the benefit of the > > security area directors. Document editors and WG chairs should treat > > these comments just like any other last call comments. > > > > DNS is not my area of expertise but the document clearly explains > > the nature of the problem to be solved (DOS attacks that employ > > DNS servers as amplifiers) and the recommendations for solving the > > problem (employing ingress filtering to prevent IP address spoofing > > and changing nameservers to provide recursive name lookup service > > only to the intended clients). > > > > I have no issue with the main content of the document. It does seem > > like a worthwhile recommendation. However, I have a few comments. > > > > The Introduction seems a bit defensive in stating that the DOS attacks > > are not due to any flaw in the design of DNS or its implementations. > > While the blame for the attacks lies with the attackers, some aspects > > of nameserver configuration, behavior, and even protocol design make > > the systems vulnerable to these attacks. I suggest that the defensive > > language be removed. > > > > Although I agree that ingress filtering is a good solution to this > > problem and provides many other benefits since it addresses many > > different attacks that involve spoofed IP addresses, the document > > states repeatedly that ingress filtering is the only solution to > > the problem. Ingress filtering may be the best solution but it is > > NOT the only solution, as evidenced by the other measures described > > in the document. None of these measures (including increased use > > of ingress filtering) will provide complete and absolute protection > > against DOS attacks that use nameservers as attack amplifiers. > > Employing all of the measures as appropriate while emphasizing > > the huge benefits of ingress filtering seems like the best approach. > > So I suggest that the wording in the document be toned down to take > > a more balanced approach to the problem. > > > > Finally, I wonder whether other more fundamental techniques for > > addressing the problem have been explored. For instance, if DNS clients > > were required to perform a simple handshake before a DNS server sent > > a long response, fake requests would provide little amplification. > > For example, requests that elicit long responses could prompt a > > shift to TCP. Of course, this would have other unpleasant side effects > > such as slowing down the processing of DNS requests with long responses > > and troubles getting DNS requests through firewalls. I'm not suggesting > > that this approach be discussed in this document, simply that it be > > considered (which probably has already been done). > > > > Thanks, > > > > Steve > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Ietf mailing list > > Ietf@ietf.org > > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf > > > > > > -- Av8 Internet Prepared to pay a premium for better service? www.av8.net faster, more reliable, better service 617 344 9000 _______________________________________________ DNSOP mailing list DNSOP@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop From dnsop-bounces@ietf.org Mon Sep 24 21:40:02 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IZzHB-0002iX-FB; Mon, 24 Sep 2007 21:31:49 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IZzH8-0002hy-Rs; Mon, 24 Sep 2007 21:31:46 -0400 Received: from cirrus.av8.net ([130.105.36.66]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IZzH3-0004aM-Hz; Mon, 24 Sep 2007 21:31:46 -0400 Received: from [130.105.12.10] ([130.105.12.10]) (authenticated bits=0) by cirrus.av8.net (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l8P1VReY022889 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO); Mon, 24 Sep 2007 21:31:30 -0400 Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 21:31:27 -0400 (EDT) From: Dean Anderson X-X-Sender: dean@citation2.av8.net To: Stephen Hanna Subject: Re: [DNSOP] Re: secdir review of draft-ietf-dnsop-reflectors-are-evil-04.txt In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 612a16ba5c5f570bfc42b3ac5606ac53 Cc: dnsop@ietf.org, secdir@mit.edu, dnsop-chairs@ietf.org, ietf@ietf.org, iesg@ietf.org X-BeenThere: dnsop@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF DNSOP WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: dnsop-bounces@ietf.org FYI, I see I missed a number of typo's with 'ENDS'. This should read instead 'EDNS'. It is fixed below. --Dean On Mon, 24 Sep 2007, Dean Anderson wrote: > I opposed this document in the DNSOP working group. I have found some > additional reasons to oppose this document, in addition to the reasons I > gave to the DNSOP WG. I generally agree with Stephen Hanna's findings. > > I. Harm only possible for EDNSO; Update RFC 2671 Instead > II. Authority Servers not Addressed, but Present More Harm > III. Motivating Attacks Seem Contrived > IV. Ordinary DDOS Mitigation Appropriate for Reflector Case > V. Mitigation Options Limited in Authority Case > VI. Using "Evil" in a RFC Title is Unprofessional > VII. Reflectors are Useful for Scientic Measurement > VIII.Conclusion: Insufficient Harm to Justify Action > > > I. Harm only possible for EDNSO; Update RFC 2671 Instead > > The maximum non-EDNS amplification factor is 8 (512 byte maximum > response / 64 byte minimum query) The non-EDNS attack has been possble > for over 20 years, but there have been no significant problems reported > in that time. There is no reason to think the non-EDNS case presents > any problem, nor has that case ever presented a problem. > > The significant harm posed by the attack described in this document is a > result of EDNS extensions which allow DNS servers to respond with upto > 8K byte long response to a relatively short EDNSO query. > > The EDNSO extension considered some security vulnerabilies created by > the protocol extension. RFC 2671 states: > > 6 - Security Considerations > > Requestor-side specification of the maximum buffer size may open a > new DNS denial of service attack if responders can be made to send > messages which are too large for intermediate gateways to forward, > thus leading to potential ICMP storms between gateways and > responders. > > Security vulnerability of DDOS is nothing new for EDNSO. Therefore at > most, this should be added as an addition to the security considerations > section in an update to RFC 2671. > > II. Authority Servers not Addressed, but Present More Harm > > This document ignores the implications of these facts: > > 1. Amplification does not require reflectors, but only requires servers > with sufficiently large packets and high bandwidth capabilities. > > 2. Authority servers are more difficult to block, since blocking > authority servers results in a outage of DNS service for the zones > served by that authority server. > > III. Motivating Attacks Seem Contrived > > The motivating attacks also have a feature of being contrived examples. > In the actual attacks reported, serious forensics would lead to the > identity of the attacker, making intelligent attackers avoid this > attack. In the example widely discussed, the attacker obtained root > access to a nameserver and hand-crafted an 8Kbyte EDNS record on the > server. The attacker then uses a group of computers to send EDNS query > packets with false source address to 'reflector' nameservers, which sent > the 8kbyte response to the spoofed source address. > > Even though forensics would probably be able to identify the intruder to > the original nameserver, in the motivating attack, the attack was not > serious enough to merit law enforcement to conduct forensic analysis. > > There have been no further similar attacks. > > IV. Ordinary DDOS Mitigation Appropriate for Reflector Case > > Mitigation includes blocking the reflector nameservers with no harm to > the target of the attack. Mitigation can be done at any convenient > point on the path between the reflector and the target. One motivating > statement for the draft was that 'one cannot contact 20,000 server > operators to ask them to block the packets'. But that is not a > requirement for mitigation. Mitigation can be performed by ISPs in the > path, as is currently done for other types of DDOS attacks. > > Because the mitigation options are the same as with any other spoofed > DDOS attack, this attack does not merit special attention. And as the > document states, if one can't send spoofed packets, one cannot conduct > this attack at all. > > V. Mitigation Options Limited in Authority Case > > By contrast with the open recursor case, one cannot easily mitigate an > identical attack using legitimate authority nameservers serving > legitimately large EDNS records. Blocking all authority nameservers for > a given zone disrupts DNS service between the DDOS target and the zones > on the affected nameservers. Examples of such servers include the Root > DNS servers. Blocking the Root DNS servers is at least as bad if not > worse than the DDOS traffic. > > This case is ignored. > > VI. Using "Evil" in a RFC Title is Unprofessional > > The word "evil" in the name given to the draft and used in its title is > also unprofessional, and doesn't belong in IETF documents. A search of > the RFC Index revealed no other similarly titled documents. > > VII. Reflectors are Useful for Scientic Measurement > > Last, the open recursor is a very useful scientific tool for analyzing > the internet, and is used in a number of scientific papers: "King: > Estimating Latency between Arbitrary Internet End Hosts" by Gummadi, > Saroiu, and Gribble > (http://www.cs.washington.edu/~gribble/rw/papers/awards_assets/king.pdf) > > The King method is cited in several scientific papers on Anycast: > "A Measurement-based Deployment Proposal for IP Anycast", Ballani, > Francis, and Ratnasamy > http://pias.gforge.cis.cornell.edu/pub/anymeasure-imc-camera-final.pdf > > Because the NSID draft (RFC 5001) makes it impossible to independently > identify Anycast Root DNS server instances (because the returned nonce > is encrypted and only decryptable by the root operators) and therefore > impossible to measure the reliability of Anycast Root DNS services; the > open recursor method is the only economical method to measure anycast > services. > > VIII.Conclusion: Insufficient Harm to Justify Action > > There is very little or no actual harm to having open DNS recursors, and > a great deal of benefit. DNS server operators should not be discouraged > from operating open recursors. > > Dean Anderson > Av8 Internet, Inc > > > On Mon, 24 Sep 2007, Stephen Hanna wrote: > > > I have reviewed this document as part of the security directorate's > > ongoing effort to review all IETF documents being processed by the > > IESG. These comments were written primarily for the benefit of the > > security area directors. Document editors and WG chairs should treat > > these comments just like any other last call comments. > > > > DNS is not my area of expertise but the document clearly explains > > the nature of the problem to be solved (DOS attacks that employ > > DNS servers as amplifiers) and the recommendations for solving the > > problem (employing ingress filtering to prevent IP address spoofing > > and changing nameservers to provide recursive name lookup service > > only to the intended clients). > > > > I have no issue with the main content of the document. It does seem > > like a worthwhile recommendation. However, I have a few comments. > > > > The Introduction seems a bit defensive in stating that the DOS attacks > > are not due to any flaw in the design of DNS or its implementations. > > While the blame for the attacks lies with the attackers, some aspects > > of nameserver configuration, behavior, and even protocol design make > > the systems vulnerable to these attacks. I suggest that the defensive > > language be removed. > > > > Although I agree that ingress filtering is a good solution to this > > problem and provides many other benefits since it addresses many > > different attacks that involve spoofed IP addresses, the document > > states repeatedly that ingress filtering is the only solution to > > the problem. Ingress filtering may be the best solution but it is > > NOT the only solution, as evidenced by the other measures described > > in the document. None of these measures (including increased use > > of ingress filtering) will provide complete and absolute protection > > against DOS attacks that use nameservers as attack amplifiers. > > Employing all of the measures as appropriate while emphasizing > > the huge benefits of ingress filtering seems like the best approach. > > So I suggest that the wording in the document be toned down to take > > a more balanced approach to the problem. > > > > Finally, I wonder whether other more fundamental techniques for > > addressing the problem have been explored. For instance, if DNS clients > > were required to perform a simple handshake before a DNS server sent > > a long response, fake requests would provide little amplification. > > For example, requests that elicit long responses could prompt a > > shift to TCP. Of course, this would have other unpleasant side effects > > such as slowing down the processing of DNS requests with long responses > > and troubles getting DNS requests through firewalls. I'm not suggesting > > that this approach be discussed in this document, simply that it be > > considered (which probably has already been done). > > > > Thanks, > > > > Steve > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Ietf mailing list > > Ietf@ietf.org > > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf > > > > > > -- Av8 Internet Prepared to pay a premium for better service? www.av8.net faster, more reliable, better service 617 344 9000 _______________________________________________ DNSOP mailing list DNSOP@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop From a-52-52@actant.com Mon Sep 24 23:05:01 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ia0jN-0001ZU-6e; Mon, 24 Sep 2007 23:05:01 -0400 Received: from [221.5.113.84] (helo=[221.5.113.84]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ia0jH-0006hR-QL; Mon, 24 Sep 2007 23:04:57 -0400 Received: from [221.5.113.84] by mx.colt.net; Tue, 25 Sep 2007 11:04:13 +0800 Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 11:04:13 +0800 From: "Hans Copeland" X-Mailer: The Bat! (v3.71.04) Home Reply-To: a-52-52@actant.com X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <386187345.12646031774200@actant.com> To: dnsext-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: Looking for friend MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: bb8eae9af85e4fcfe76f325e38493bf4 Hello! I am tired today. I am nice girl that would like to chat with you. Email me at fusr@NearOut.info only, because I am writing not from my personal email. I will show you some of my private pictures From lewis8edgar@bluemail.ch Tue Sep 25 02:20:14 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ia3mI-00011E-0K for dnsop-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 25 Sep 2007 02:20:14 -0400 Received: from [87.251.136.8] (helo=87.251.136.8) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ia3m3-00046m-8C for dnsop-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 25 Sep 2007 02:20:03 -0400 Received: from [87.251.136.8] by vcfq.bluemail.ch; Tue, 25 Sep 2007 06:21:28 +0000 Message-ID: <000501c7ff3c$05559dd8$f9b7bfa4@fqhrguf> From: "Prince Aaron" To: "Jenny Ambrose" Subject: Thanks, we accepted your loan request Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 04:34:06 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0002_01C7FF3C.05539B93" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.3790.2663 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.3790.2757 X-Spam-Score: 2.7 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 4adaf050708fb13be3316a9eee889caa This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0002_01C7FF3C.05539B93 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable If you have your own business and wish IMMEDIATE money to spend ANY way = you like or wish Extra money to give your company a boost or require A = low interest loan - NO STRINGS ATTACHED, here is our best deal we can = offer you THIS EVENING (hurry, this tender will expire TONIGHT):   $26,000+ loan   Hurry, when the deal is gone, it is gone. 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    ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C8000A.DC58F6F0-- From uikorea.net@localwellness.com Wed Sep 26 10:57:58 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IaYKs-0006l8-7E for dnsop-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 26 Sep 2007 10:57:58 -0400 Received: from [88.246.127.222] (helo=stsokdk) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IaYKq-00015M-76 for dnsop-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 26 Sep 2007 10:57:58 -0400 Message-ID: <000901c8004e$2cda1d00$0100007f@sjfur> From: "Brett Jenkins" To: Subject: She will love you more than any other guy Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 17:57:49 +0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_003B_01C8004E.2CDA1D00" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-Spam-Score: 3.5 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: a3f7094ccc62748c06b21fcf44c073ee This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003B_01C8004E.2CDA1D00 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0060_01C8004E.2CDA1D00" ------=_NextPart_001_0060_01C8004E.2CDA1D00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable See attachment. http://www.dwyolan.net/ ----- Trust has no place between a m You cant love someone without He didnt answer her remark and And did I offer marriage? Brad ------=_NextPart_001_0060_01C8004E.2CDA1D00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi

    ------=_NextPart_001_0060_01C8004E.2CDA1D00-- ------=_NextPart_000_003B_01C8004E.2CDA1D00 Content-Type: image/jpeg; name="img91.jpg" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: /9j/4AAQSkZJRgABAgAAZABkAAD/7AARRHVja3kAAQAEAAAABQAA/+4AIUFkb2JlAGTAAAAAAQMA EAMCAwYAAAarAAAP/AAAIW//2wCEABcVFSEXITQfHzRCLykvQj0zMjIzPUZGRkZGRkZGRkZGRkZG RkZGRkZGRkZGRkZGRkZGRkZGRkZGRkZGRkZGRkYBGSEhKiUqMyAgM0YzKjNGRkY4OEZGRkZGRkZG RkZGRkZGRkZGRkZGRkZGRkZGRkZGRkZGRkZGRkZGRkZGRkZGRv/CABEIAJQCNQMBIgACEQEDEQH/ xAC6AAACAwEBAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABAECAwUGAQEBAQEBAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAQIDBBAAAgICAgAG AQQBBQEAAAAAAQIAAxEEIRIQIDETFAVAMEEiMiNQQjM0FWARAAIBAgQCBwYDBwMCBwAAAAECEQAh MUESA1FhEHGBkSIyEyDwobHB0eFCUjBicoKSIwRAUPGyM2CiwuJTkxQSAAEEAQQCAwAAAAAAAAAA AAEAUBEhECBAYDEwYXECEv/aAAwDAQACEQMRAAAA9WSEEhBIQSEEhBIQSEEhBIQSEEhBIQSEEhBI QSEEhBIQSEEhBIQSEEhBIQSEEhBIQSEEhHO6XP57zytyPJ69OR0uRvXV7XnfQ9eHXJO/mgkMiQ0z 0zPPdKq7b2GW4ClD0Pnu/wANHStCt1bK9XKqaX5mq93jdRFMdpWXVjPI0gudPi9TmJDyNl7JVRh0 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It's not. Even without IPv6, having search domains means you can get unexpected results. If that's not acceptable, don't complain, but put a period behind your FQDNs. > The problem here is not the search but different stoping > critera depending apon the address families supported by > the host or requested by the application. > We wrote a API that failed to account for the usual use > senario. In fact the guidance in there is the direct > opposite of what should be done with the usual use senario. I thought the solution would be hard or would be suboptimal in the common case, but I think that doesn't have to be so. In my example, MacOS would go through the search domains and keep going until it found AAAA records for IPv6 or IPv4+IPv6 applications (and presumably look for A records if there were no AAAA records and IPv4 was present/requested also). So basically, both the "answers = 0, noerror" and "nxdomain" responses trigger trying the next search domain. If we change this to "answers = 0, noerror" means try the same FQDN again for an A record, and "nxdomain" means move on to the next search domain, the results for different permutations of IP version availability would all result in connecting to the same FQDN = the first one with an address that's compatible with current connectivity, rather than the first one with an AAAA record if there is IPv6 connectivity. > I'm saying we should go back and fix the specification for > getaddrinfo() so that it accounts for searching. Volunteers...? > We should also add a AI_NOSEARCH flag so that searching is > controlled directly rather than indirectly. That's what the period terminating a domain name is for. > I've set Reply-To to ipv6@ietf.org as this is more approriate > for 6man. No, it's a DNS issue, so it should go to dnsop. dnsop people: see discussion between Mark, Keith and me that started under the subject "renumbering" on the ietf discussion list. Everyone: feel free to prune some lists when you respond. :-) _______________________________________________ DNSOP mailing list DNSOP@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop From dnsop-bounces@ietf.org Thu Sep 27 11:50:10 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IavVp-0003WF-F7; Thu, 27 Sep 2007 11:42:49 -0400 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IavVn-0003SB-1i; Thu, 27 Sep 2007 11:42:47 -0400 Received: from sequoia.muada.com ([83.149.65.1]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IavVm-0005Of-DC; Thu, 27 Sep 2007 11:42:46 -0400 Received: from [82.192.90.28] (nirrti.muada.com [82.192.90.28]) (authenticated bits=0) by sequoia.muada.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id l8RFdxga068049 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Thu, 27 Sep 2007 17:39:59 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from iljitsch@muada.com) In-Reply-To: <200709270133.l8R1XuB6060071@drugs.dv.isc.org> References: <200709270133.l8R1XuB6060071@drugs.dv.isc.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <9305E1B9-7D36-4AB5-AB17-5208A1B0B62A@muada.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Iljitsch van Beijnum Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 17:42:38 +0200 To: ipv6@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 82c9bddb247d9ba4471160a9a865a5f3 Cc: dnsop@ietf.org, IETF-Discussion Discussion Subject: [DNSOP] Re: getaddrinfo() and searching X-BeenThere: dnsop@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF DNSOP WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: dnsop-bounces@ietf.org On 27-sep-2007, at 3:33, Mark Andrews wrote: >> So your issue that the results are inconsistent is certainly real. >> I'd say that the best way to avoid this is not having a search domain >> at all, or at the very least not several. > Which is a totally unreasonable suggestion. It's not. Even without IPv6, having search domains means you can get unexpected results. If that's not acceptable, don't complain, but put a period behind your FQDNs. > The problem here is not the search but different stoping > critera depending apon the address families supported by > the host or requested by the application. > We wrote a API that failed to account for the usual use > senario. In fact the guidance in there is the direct > opposite of what should be done with the usual use senario. I thought the solution would be hard or would be suboptimal in the common case, but I think that doesn't have to be so. In my example, MacOS would go through the search domains and keep going until it found AAAA records for IPv6 or IPv4+IPv6 applications (and presumably look for A records if there were no AAAA records and IPv4 was present/requested also). So basically, both the "answers = 0, noerror" and "nxdomain" responses trigger trying the next search domain. If we change this to "answers = 0, noerror" means try the same FQDN again for an A record, and "nxdomain" means move on to the next search domain, the results for different permutations of IP version availability would all result in connecting to the same FQDN = the first one with an address that's compatible with current connectivity, rather than the first one with an AAAA record if there is IPv6 connectivity. > I'm saying we should go back and fix the specification for > getaddrinfo() so that it accounts for searching. Volunteers...? > We should also add a AI_NOSEARCH flag so that searching is > controlled directly rather than indirectly. That's what the period terminating a domain name is for. > I've set Reply-To to ipv6@ietf.org as this is more approriate > for 6man. No, it's a DNS issue, so it should go to dnsop. dnsop people: see discussion between Mark, Keith and me that started under the subject "renumbering" on the ietf discussion list. Everyone: feel free to prune some lists when you respond. :-) _______________________________________________ DNSOP mailing list DNSOP@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop From dnsop-bounces@ietf.org Thu Sep 27 12:21:36 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iaw3k-000677-Ch; Thu, 27 Sep 2007 12:17:52 -0400 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iaw3j-000633-AE for dnsop@ietf.org; Thu, 27 Sep 2007 12:17:51 -0400 Received: from fw-d-whp.denic.de ([81.91.160.27] helo=denic.de) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iaw3i-0006aP-Sj for dnsop@ietf.org; Thu, 27 Sep 2007 12:17:51 -0400 Received: by unknown.office.denic.de (Postfix, from userid 501) id 92B1253032E; Thu, 27 Sep 2007 18:17:45 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 18:17:45 +0200 From: Peter Koch To: IETF DNSOP WG Subject: Re: [DNSOP] Re: getaddrinfo() and searching Message-ID: <20070927161745.GC11304@unknown.office.denic.de> References: <200709270133.l8R1XuB6060071@drugs.dv.isc.org> <9305E1B9-7D36-4AB5-AB17-5208A1B0B62A@muada.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <9305E1B9-7D36-4AB5-AB17-5208A1B0B62A@muada.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 798b2e660f1819ae38035ac1d8d5e3ab X-BeenThere: dnsop@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF DNSOP WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: dnsop-bounces@ietf.org On Thu, Sep 27, 2007 at 05:42:38PM +0200, Iljitsch van Beijnum wrote: > It's not. Even without IPv6, having search domains means you can get > unexpected results. If that's not acceptable, don't complain, but put > a period behind your FQDNs. thanks, Iljitsch, for bringing this into dnsop. I think that the problem of determinism in following the search path is very well worth investigating. To some extent it's related to RFC 1535 and we've at least had this under "A.O.B." in one of the recent meetings, if I remember correctly. > No, it's a DNS issue, so it should go to dnsop. dnsop people: see > discussion between Mark, Keith and me that started under the subject > "renumbering" on the ietf discussion list. The semantics of search paths in mixed or dual stack environments need to be clear, independent of a particular API, at least as long as the search path isn't set API specific. Seems that we should at least have a look into this, see what implementations do and what operational and maybe security consequences are. -Peter _______________________________________________ DNSOP mailing list DNSOP@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop From dnsop-bounces@ietf.org Thu Sep 27 12:21:36 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iaw3k-000677-Ch; Thu, 27 Sep 2007 12:17:52 -0400 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iaw3j-000633-AE for dnsop@ietf.org; Thu, 27 Sep 2007 12:17:51 -0400 Received: from fw-d-whp.denic.de ([81.91.160.27] helo=denic.de) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iaw3i-0006aP-Sj for dnsop@ietf.org; Thu, 27 Sep 2007 12:17:51 -0400 Received: by unknown.office.denic.de (Postfix, from userid 501) id 92B1253032E; Thu, 27 Sep 2007 18:17:45 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 18:17:45 +0200 From: Peter Koch To: IETF DNSOP WG Subject: Re: [DNSOP] Re: getaddrinfo() and searching Message-ID: <20070927161745.GC11304@unknown.office.denic.de> References: <200709270133.l8R1XuB6060071@drugs.dv.isc.org> <9305E1B9-7D36-4AB5-AB17-5208A1B0B62A@muada.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <9305E1B9-7D36-4AB5-AB17-5208A1B0B62A@muada.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 798b2e660f1819ae38035ac1d8d5e3ab X-BeenThere: dnsop@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF DNSOP WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: dnsop-bounces@ietf.org On Thu, Sep 27, 2007 at 05:42:38PM +0200, Iljitsch van Beijnum wrote: > It's not. Even without IPv6, having search domains means you can get > unexpected results. If that's not acceptable, don't complain, but put > a period behind your FQDNs. thanks, Iljitsch, for bringing this into dnsop. I think that the problem of determinism in following the search path is very well worth investigating. To some extent it's related to RFC 1535 and we've at least had this under "A.O.B." in one of the recent meetings, if I remember correctly. > No, it's a DNS issue, so it should go to dnsop. dnsop people: see > discussion between Mark, Keith and me that started under the subject > "renumbering" on the ietf discussion list. The semantics of search paths in mixed or dual stack environments need to be clear, independent of a particular API, at least as long as the search path isn't set API specific. Seems that we should at least have a look into this, see what implementations do and what operational and maybe security consequences are. -Peter _______________________________________________ DNSOP mailing list DNSOP@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop From i-break.net@westforkonline.com Thu Sep 27 12:46:35 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IawVW-0002eo-RR for dnsop-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 27 Sep 2007 12:46:35 -0400 Received: from h66.203.102.166.ip.alltel.net ([166.102.203.66] helo=fwyowgxu) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IawVW-0007Xk-7R for dnsop-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 27 Sep 2007 12:46:34 -0400 Message-ID: <000901c80126$cd9c0b80$0100007f@pbjsqxj> From: "Daniel Russell" To: Subject: She will love you more than any other guy Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 12:05:37 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0044_01C80126.CD9C0B80" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-Spam-Score: 3.6 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 8d89ee9312a95de8ee48d1c94511f1bb This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0044_01C80126.CD9C0B80 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_002B_01C80126.CD9C0B80" ------=_NextPart_001_002B_01C80126.CD9C0B80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable See attach. http://www.plymeob.net/ ----- It seemed an eternity passed b It suddenly dawned on him how Good times as well as bad time He glanced down at the beautif ------=_NextPart_001_002B_01C80126.CD9C0B80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi

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9hBpENgKEHc6wO7T67ViyKE/TJOrHWf7aT5gBYUFYvOv/bTfMGyGAWAxkR/bS/NYIvAtZW2YffTd QRzFoU6CDxMVjyZFVDjM3K0lvdtT5sdpTJEgmDTfMGy1lsi4yAOO33UvzOG1oW215HsOtZX6GGQ3 DUjX2GnxGwliSIY8R/TX/F6LoK3XHj/bWLVVy4bbSNVMc9q/WCoomVUzdNNhS04zNrEwVnsivKy2 wJgqe2k8q2EYP1E6xw2Pt91Y8yhAMfC48d/w1/yQFttsi47f41lyNaFyiOkmR7vuo/KfphfzaknW eQ9utYvl1jzgLoOqQNNZ+6kwZlxkODb5cjUVldgh8w3ABjof8afEbCWLGbjx/tpflyVuxm4akht9 DoKx/MEJ0SLQTsdN4+Hto58VrK6hSGJG3tofMELbbZFxJj2U4whXRzcJNpUn1GRT4lKnJlJLsdBJ 5UPlugGFUm4/h/tpX6SLLWS7Qns0rLkgK2SDYuyx9Z2oD5gg5BxXb92T/k+P8O/woRt+wF3+/wBf L2fUdn7yvnT5n4LLrv8AtrS7zY/9S66Oy74fuX//2Q== ------=_NextPart_000_0044_01C80126.CD9C0B80-- From Mayfield@rent-a-tree.com Thu Sep 27 17:29:15 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ib0v5-0004no-LX for dnsop-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 27 Sep 2007 17:29:15 -0400 Received: from [88.234.241.33] (helo=[88.234.241.33]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ib0ur-0007Oz-L3 for dnsop-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 27 Sep 2007 17:29:02 -0400 Received: by 10.128.162.33 with SMTP id zfpBBhmXLvbvU; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 00:29:05 +0300 (GMT) Received: by 192.168.0.64 with SMTP id gJxelFkhyJFSwv.9530095231232; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 00:29:03 +0300 (GMT) Message-ID: <000701c8014d$6b428410$21f1ea58@cithiz> From: "kyri Mayfield" To: Subject: 0yolla Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 00:29:00 +0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0007_01C80166.908FBC10" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: b19722fc8d3865b147c75ae2495625f2 ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C80166.908FBC10 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-9" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable http://www.miaaroba.com/ Good night dnsop-archive fact: Girls like guys with a big schlong! kyri Mayfield 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    ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C80166.908FBC10-- From dnsop-bounces@ietf.org Thu Sep 27 19:55:26 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ib36H-0005d9-Vj; Thu, 27 Sep 2007 19:48:57 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ib36F-0005M3-JY; Thu, 27 Sep 2007 19:48:56 -0400 Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org ([2001:470:1f00:820:214:22ff:fed9:fbdc]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ib36C-0005rb-4r; Thu, 27 Sep 2007 19:48:53 -0400 Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by drugs.dv.isc.org (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l8RNmc7a037161; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 09:48:39 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from marka@drugs.dv.isc.org) Message-Id: <200709272348.l8RNmc7a037161@drugs.dv.isc.org> To: Iljitsch van Beijnum From: Mark Andrews Subject: Re: [DNSOP] Re: getaddrinfo() and searching In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 27 Sep 2007 17:42:38 +0200." <9305E1B9-7D36-4AB5-AB17-5208A1B0B62A@muada.com> Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 09:48:38 +1000 X-Spam-Score: -1.4 (-) X-Scan-Signature: 31247fb3be228bb596db9127becad0bc Cc: dnsop@ietf.org, ipv6@ietf.org, IETF-Discussion Discussion X-BeenThere: dnsop@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF DNSOP WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: dnsop-bounces@ietf.org > On 27-sep-2007, at 3:33, Mark Andrews wrote: > > >> So your issue that the results are inconsistent is certainly real. > > >> I'd say that the best way to avoid this is not having a search domain > >> at all, or at the very least not several. > > > Which is a totally unreasonable suggestion. > > It's not. Even without IPv6, having search domains means you can get > unexpected results. If that's not acceptable, don't complain, but put > a period behind your FQDNs. Please state were in RFC 952 a final period is legal in a hostname. Remember applications take HOSTNAMES not DOMAIN NAMES. There are HOSTNAMES that you cannot store in the DNS. There are DOMAIN NAMES that are not legal HOSTNAMES. > > The problem here is not the search but different stoping > > critera depending apon the address families supported by > > the host or requested by the application. > > > We wrote a API that failed to account for the usual use > > senario. In fact the guidance in there is the direct > > opposite of what should be done with the usual use senario. > > I thought the solution would be hard or would be suboptimal in the > common case, but I think that doesn't have to be so. > In my example, MacOS would go through the search domains and keep > going until it found AAAA records for IPv6 or IPv4+IPv6 applications > (and presumably look for A records if there were no AAAA records and > IPv4 was present/requested also). > > So basically, both the "answers = 0, noerror" and "nxdomain" > responses trigger trying the next search domain. If we change this to > "answers = 0, noerror" means try the same FQDN again for an A record, > and "nxdomain" means move on to the next search domain, the results > for different permutations of IP version availability would all > result in connecting to the same FQDN = the first one with an address > that's compatible with current connectivity, rather than the first > one with an AAAA record if there is IPv6 connectivity. > > > I'm saying we should go back and fix the specification for > > getaddrinfo() so that it accounts for searching. > > Volunteers...? If need be, yes. > > We should also add a AI_NOSEARCH flag so that searching is > > controlled directly rather than indirectly. > > That's what the period terminating a domain name is for. Again you confuse domain names and hostname. > > I've set Reply-To to ipv6@ietf.org as this is more approriate > > for 6man. > > No, it's a DNS issue, so it should go to dnsop. dnsop people: see > discussion between Mark, Keith and me that started under the subject > "renumbering" on the ietf discussion list. I chose ipv6@ietf.org (or it predecessor) because ipv6@ietf.org was where getaddrinfo()s behaviour was spec'd out. We need to at least give the 6man a chance to address it. Mark > Everyone: feel free to prune some lists when you respond. :-) > > _______________________________________________ > DNSOP mailing list > DNSOP@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop -- Mark Andrews, ISC 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: Mark_Andrews@isc.org _______________________________________________ DNSOP mailing list DNSOP@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop From dnsop-bounces@ietf.org Thu Sep 27 19:55:26 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ib36H-0005d9-Vj; Thu, 27 Sep 2007 19:48:57 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ib36F-0005M3-JY; Thu, 27 Sep 2007 19:48:56 -0400 Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org ([2001:470:1f00:820:214:22ff:fed9:fbdc]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ib36C-0005rb-4r; Thu, 27 Sep 2007 19:48:53 -0400 Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by drugs.dv.isc.org (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l8RNmc7a037161; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 09:48:39 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from marka@drugs.dv.isc.org) Message-Id: <200709272348.l8RNmc7a037161@drugs.dv.isc.org> To: Iljitsch van Beijnum From: Mark Andrews Subject: Re: [DNSOP] Re: getaddrinfo() and searching In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 27 Sep 2007 17:42:38 +0200." <9305E1B9-7D36-4AB5-AB17-5208A1B0B62A@muada.com> Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 09:48:38 +1000 X-Spam-Score: -1.4 (-) X-Scan-Signature: 31247fb3be228bb596db9127becad0bc Cc: dnsop@ietf.org, ipv6@ietf.org, IETF-Discussion Discussion X-BeenThere: dnsop@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF DNSOP WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: dnsop-bounces@ietf.org > On 27-sep-2007, at 3:33, Mark Andrews wrote: > > >> So your issue that the results are inconsistent is certainly real. > > >> I'd say that the best way to avoid this is not having a search domain > >> at all, or at the very least not several. > > > Which is a totally unreasonable suggestion. > > It's not. Even without IPv6, having search domains means you can get > unexpected results. If that's not acceptable, don't complain, but put > a period behind your FQDNs. Please state were in RFC 952 a final period is legal in a hostname. Remember applications take HOSTNAMES not DOMAIN NAMES. There are HOSTNAMES that you cannot store in the DNS. There are DOMAIN NAMES that are not legal HOSTNAMES. > > The problem here is not the search but different stoping > > critera depending apon the address families supported by > > the host or requested by the application. > > > We wrote a API that failed to account for the usual use > > senario. In fact the guidance in there is the direct > > opposite of what should be done with the usual use senario. > > I thought the solution would be hard or would be suboptimal in the > common case, but I think that doesn't have to be so. > In my example, MacOS would go through the search domains and keep > going until it found AAAA records for IPv6 or IPv4+IPv6 applications > (and presumably look for A records if there were no AAAA records and > IPv4 was present/requested also). > > So basically, both the "answers = 0, noerror" and "nxdomain" > responses trigger trying the next search domain. If we change this to > "answers = 0, noerror" means try the same FQDN again for an A record, > and "nxdomain" means move on to the next search domain, the results > for different permutations of IP version availability would all > result in connecting to the same FQDN = the first one with an address > that's compatible with current connectivity, rather than the first > one with an AAAA record if there is IPv6 connectivity. > > > I'm saying we should go back and fix the specification for > > getaddrinfo() so that it accounts for searching. > > Volunteers...? If need be, yes. > > We should also add a AI_NOSEARCH flag so that searching is > > controlled directly rather than indirectly. > > That's what the period terminating a domain name is for. Again you confuse domain names and hostname. > > I've set Reply-To to ipv6@ietf.org as this is more approriate > > for 6man. > > No, it's a DNS issue, so it should go to dnsop. dnsop people: see > discussion between Mark, Keith and me that started under the subject > "renumbering" on the ietf discussion list. I chose ipv6@ietf.org (or it predecessor) because ipv6@ietf.org was where getaddrinfo()s behaviour was spec'd out. We need to at least give the 6man a chance to address it. Mark > Everyone: feel free to prune some lists when you respond. :-) > > _______________________________________________ > DNSOP mailing list > DNSOP@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop -- Mark Andrews, ISC 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: Mark_Andrews@isc.org _______________________________________________ DNSOP mailing list DNSOP@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop From pacpacer@hotmail.com Thu Sep 27 22:54:53 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ib60D-0002Ca-5b; Thu, 27 Sep 2007 22:54:53 -0400 Received: from [189.12.84.140] (helo=18912084140.user.veloxzone.com.br) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ib60C-0006hx-DE; Thu, 27 Sep 2007 22:54:53 -0400 Received: from [189.12.84.140] by mx4.hotmail.com; Wed, 1 Jan 2003 07:39:32 -0300 Message-ID: <01c2b182$11d10110$8c540cbd@pacpacer> From: "Shari Bailey" To: Subject: Urgent healthcare info Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 07:39:32 -0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Spam-Score: 3.8 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 2870a44b67ee17965ce5ad0177e150f4 Thousands and thousands of men from all over the world appreciate the quality of the generic brand-name goods that we offer. 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    ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C801C3.7DD3EB70-- From Katz@hiltonheadbeachandtennisresort.com Thu Sep 27 23:34:13 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ib6cH-0002Z5-Ue for dnsop-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 27 Sep 2007 23:34:13 -0400 Received: from [221.126.126.183] (helo=[221.126.126.183]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ib6cG-0002AQ-CX for dnsop-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 27 Sep 2007 23:34:13 -0400 Received: from linux-7hzodd60q ([125.161.6.19]:8525 "EHLO linux-7hzodd60q" smtp-auth: TLS-CIPHER: TLS-PEER-CN1: ) by [221.126.126.183] with ESMTP id S22AXQXGPONTBWOG (ORCPT ); Fri, 28 Sep 2007 11:34:57 +0800 Message-ID: <000601c80180$74fda240$b77e7edd@linux7hzodd60q> From: "huong Katz" To: dnsop-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: metgidan Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 11:34:21 +0800 Message-ID: <000601c80180$74fda240$b77e7edd@linux7hzodd60q> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 X-Spam-Score: 4.9 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 08e48e05374109708c00c6208b534009 Mining Sector --- Delta Mining UPDATE HOT SECTOR: Additional information on (O_T_C: D M X C) D M X C is expected to arrive soon. For those of you who currently own this company this will be great news. For those that don't currently own this company, you need to get in on this now. The company recently traded as high as .13 and with any significant news should be able to see (if not exceed) those prices again. Contact your broker now, don't miss this opportunity in D M X C! From dnsop-bounces@ietf.org Fri Sep 28 00:57:18 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ib7lz-0002Yh-I6; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 00:48:19 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ib7ly-0002Xf-8i for dnsop@ietf.org; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 00:48:18 -0400 Received: from shvirpr4-vip1.extra.daimlerchrysler.com ([129.9.168.76] helo=shvirpr4.extra.daimlerchrysler.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ib7ll-00045O-E5 for dnsop@ietf.org; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 00:48:13 -0400 Received: from shnavip4-hme0.shdc.chrysler.com (unknown [53.231.141.98]) by shvirpr4.extra.daimlerchrysler.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 01EF410FD53 for ; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 00:40:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wokcdts1.is.chrysler.com ([53.230.98.85]) by shnavip4-hme0.shdc.chrysler.com (SMSSMTP 4.1.7.33) with SMTP id M2007092800474404944 for ; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 00:47:44 -0400 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by wokcdts1.is.chrysler.com (8.13.6/8.9.1) with ESMTP id l8S4lgKx016454 for ; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 00:47:42 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <46FC876E.80800@daimlerchrysler.com> Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 00:47:42 -0400 From: Kevin Darcy User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5 (X11/20060113) MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: IETF DNSOP WG Subject: Re: [DNSOP] Re: getaddrinfo() and searching References: <200709270133.l8R1XuB6060071@drugs.dv.isc.org> <9305E1B9-7D36-4AB5-AB17-5208A1B0B62A@muada.com> <20070927161745.GC11304@unknown.office.denic.de> In-Reply-To: <20070927161745.GC11304@unknown.office.denic.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 1.6 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 8abaac9e10c826e8252866cbe6766464 X-BeenThere: dnsop@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF DNSOP WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: dnsop-bounces@ietf.org Peter Koch wrote: > On Thu, Sep 27, 2007 at 05:42:38PM +0200, Iljitsch van Beijnum wrote: > > >> It's not. Even without IPv6, having search domains means you can get >> unexpected results. If that's not acceptable, don't complain, but put >> a period behind your FQDNs. >> >> > > thanks, Iljitsch, for bringing this into dnsop. I think that the problem > of determinism in following the search path is very well worth investigating. > To some extent it's related to RFC 1535 and we've at least had this under > "A.O.B." in one of the recent meetings, if I remember correctly. > > >> No, it's a DNS issue, so it should go to dnsop. dnsop people: see >> discussion between Mark, Keith and me that started under the subject >> "renumbering" on the ietf discussion list. >> > > The semantics of search paths in mixed or dual stack environments need to > be clear, independent of a particular API, at least as long as the search > path isn't set API specific. Seems that we should at least have a look into > this, see what implementations do and what operational and maybe security > consequences are. > Is there any consensus for deprecating searchlists entirely? That would simplify the issue. - Kevin _______________________________________________ DNSOP mailing list DNSOP@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop From dnsop-bounces@ietf.org Fri Sep 28 00:57:18 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ib7lz-0002Yh-I6; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 00:48:19 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ib7ly-0002Xf-8i for dnsop@ietf.org; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 00:48:18 -0400 Received: from shvirpr4-vip1.extra.daimlerchrysler.com ([129.9.168.76] helo=shvirpr4.extra.daimlerchrysler.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ib7ll-00045O-E5 for dnsop@ietf.org; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 00:48:13 -0400 Received: from shnavip4-hme0.shdc.chrysler.com (unknown [53.231.141.98]) by shvirpr4.extra.daimlerchrysler.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 01EF410FD53 for ; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 00:40:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wokcdts1.is.chrysler.com ([53.230.98.85]) by shnavip4-hme0.shdc.chrysler.com (SMSSMTP 4.1.7.33) with SMTP id M2007092800474404944 for ; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 00:47:44 -0400 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by wokcdts1.is.chrysler.com (8.13.6/8.9.1) with ESMTP id l8S4lgKx016454 for ; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 00:47:42 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <46FC876E.80800@daimlerchrysler.com> Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 00:47:42 -0400 From: Kevin Darcy User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5 (X11/20060113) MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: IETF DNSOP WG Subject: Re: [DNSOP] Re: getaddrinfo() and searching References: <200709270133.l8R1XuB6060071@drugs.dv.isc.org> <9305E1B9-7D36-4AB5-AB17-5208A1B0B62A@muada.com> <20070927161745.GC11304@unknown.office.denic.de> In-Reply-To: <20070927161745.GC11304@unknown.office.denic.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 1.6 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 8abaac9e10c826e8252866cbe6766464 X-BeenThere: dnsop@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF DNSOP WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: dnsop-bounces@ietf.org Peter Koch wrote: > On Thu, Sep 27, 2007 at 05:42:38PM +0200, Iljitsch van Beijnum wrote: > > >> It's not. Even without IPv6, having search domains means you can get >> unexpected results. If that's not acceptable, don't complain, but put >> a period behind your FQDNs. >> >> > > thanks, Iljitsch, for bringing this into dnsop. I think that the problem > of determinism in following the search path is very well worth investigating. > To some extent it's related to RFC 1535 and we've at least had this under > "A.O.B." in one of the recent meetings, if I remember correctly. > > >> No, it's a DNS issue, so it should go to dnsop. dnsop people: see >> discussion between Mark, Keith and me that started under the subject >> "renumbering" on the ietf discussion list. >> > > The semantics of search paths in mixed or dual stack environments need to > be clear, independent of a particular API, at least as long as the search > path isn't set API specific. Seems that we should at least have a look into > this, see what implementations do and what operational and maybe security > consequences are. > Is there any consensus for deprecating searchlists entirely? That would simplify the issue. - Kevin _______________________________________________ DNSOP mailing list DNSOP@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop From dnsop-bounces@ietf.org Fri Sep 28 01:58:38 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ib8l2-0005oB-HN; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 01:51:24 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ib8l1-0005o6-O7 for dnsop@ietf.org; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 01:51:23 -0400 Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org ([2001:470:1f00:820:214:22ff:fed9:fbdc]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ib8l0-0005NC-Bd for dnsop@ietf.org; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 01:51:23 -0400 Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by drugs.dv.isc.org (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l8S5p2Li024848; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 15:51:02 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from marka@drugs.dv.isc.org) Message-Id: <200709280551.l8S5p2Li024848@drugs.dv.isc.org> To: Kevin Darcy From: Mark Andrews Subject: Re: [DNSOP] Re: getaddrinfo() and searching In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 28 Sep 2007 00:47:42 -0400." <46FC876E.80800@daimlerchrysler.com> Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 15:51:02 +1000 X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 538aad3a3c4f01d8b6a6477ca4248793 Cc: IETF DNSOP WG X-BeenThere: dnsop@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF DNSOP WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: dnsop-bounces@ietf.org > Peter Koch wrote: > > On Thu, Sep 27, 2007 at 05:42:38PM +0200, Iljitsch van Beijnum wrote: > > > > > >> It's not. Even without IPv6, having search domains means you can get > >> unexpected results. If that's not acceptable, don't complain, but put > >> a period behind your FQDNs. > >> > >> > > > > thanks, Iljitsch, for bringing this into dnsop. I think that the problem > > of determinism in following the search path is very well worth investigatin > g. > > To some extent it's related to RFC 1535 and we've at least had this under > > "A.O.B." in one of the recent meetings, if I remember correctly. > > > > > >> No, it's a DNS issue, so it should go to dnsop. dnsop people: see > >> discussion between Mark, Keith and me that started under the subject > >> "renumbering" on the ietf discussion list. > >> > > > > The semantics of search paths in mixed or dual stack environments need to > > be clear, independent of a particular API, at least as long as the search > > path isn't set API specific. Seems that we should at least have a look int > o > > this, see what implementations do and what operational and maybe security > > consequences are. > > > Is there any consensus for deprecating searchlists entirely? That would > simplify the issue. > > - Kevin It would but I don't think you will find any consensus. It would be tough enough to get rid of partially qualified names. Note: I tried to get this issue addressed years ago and couldn't get any traction then. http://atm.tut.fi/list-archive/ipng/msg04767.html > _______________________________________________ > DNSOP mailing list > DNSOP@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop -- Mark Andrews, ISC 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: Mark_Andrews@isc.org _______________________________________________ DNSOP mailing list DNSOP@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop From dnsop-bounces@ietf.org Fri Sep 28 01:58:38 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ib8l2-0005oB-HN; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 01:51:24 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ib8l1-0005o6-O7 for dnsop@ietf.org; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 01:51:23 -0400 Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org ([2001:470:1f00:820:214:22ff:fed9:fbdc]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ib8l0-0005NC-Bd for dnsop@ietf.org; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 01:51:23 -0400 Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by drugs.dv.isc.org (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l8S5p2Li024848; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 15:51:02 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from marka@drugs.dv.isc.org) Message-Id: <200709280551.l8S5p2Li024848@drugs.dv.isc.org> To: Kevin Darcy From: Mark Andrews Subject: Re: [DNSOP] Re: getaddrinfo() and searching In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 28 Sep 2007 00:47:42 -0400." <46FC876E.80800@daimlerchrysler.com> Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 15:51:02 +1000 X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 538aad3a3c4f01d8b6a6477ca4248793 Cc: IETF DNSOP WG X-BeenThere: dnsop@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF DNSOP WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: dnsop-bounces@ietf.org > Peter Koch wrote: > > On Thu, Sep 27, 2007 at 05:42:38PM +0200, Iljitsch van Beijnum wrote: > > > > > >> It's not. Even without IPv6, having search domains means you can get > >> unexpected results. If that's not acceptable, don't complain, but put > >> a period behind your FQDNs. > >> > >> > > > > thanks, Iljitsch, for bringing this into dnsop. I think that the problem > > of determinism in following the search path is very well worth investigatin > g. > > To some extent it's related to RFC 1535 and we've at least had this under > > "A.O.B." in one of the recent meetings, if I remember correctly. > > > > > >> No, it's a DNS issue, so it should go to dnsop. dnsop people: see > >> discussion between Mark, Keith and me that started under the subject > >> "renumbering" on the ietf discussion list. > >> > > > > The semantics of search paths in mixed or dual stack environments need to > > be clear, independent of a particular API, at least as long as the search > > path isn't set API specific. Seems that we should at least have a look int > o > > this, see what implementations do and what operational and maybe security > > consequences are. > > > Is there any consensus for deprecating searchlists entirely? That would > simplify the issue. > > - Kevin It would but I don't think you will find any consensus. It would be tough enough to get rid of partially qualified names. Note: I tried to get this issue addressed years ago and couldn't get any traction then. http://atm.tut.fi/list-archive/ipng/msg04767.html > _______________________________________________ > DNSOP mailing list > DNSOP@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop -- Mark Andrews, ISC 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: Mark_Andrews@isc.org _______________________________________________ DNSOP mailing list DNSOP@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop From dujpainbegonefyh@painbegone.net Fri Sep 28 02:02:52 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ib8w8-0006mV-Jf; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 02:02:52 -0400 Received: from [210.211.234.176] (helo=[210.211.234.176]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ib8w5-0005cv-3y; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 02:02:50 -0400 Received: from [210.211.234.176] by INBOUND.PAINBEGONE.NET.NETSOLMAIL.net; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 11:35:41 +0530 Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 11:35:41 +0530 From: "Jerold Goodson" X-Mailer: The Bat! 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    ------------25250946E73946E-- From tengfei@sxpxq.com Fri Sep 28 02:16:31 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ib99L-00044n-2g; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 02:16:31 -0400 Received: from dccpcn.iasi.rdsnet.ro ([82.77.21.91]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ib99F-0003JO-Mr; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 02:16:25 -0400 Received: from [82.77.21.91] by mail.sxpxq.com; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 08:16:26 +0200 Message-ID: <01c80197$19add010$5b154d52@tengfei> From: Snow To: Subject: Software discounts Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 08:16:26 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Spam-Score: 4.7 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 68c8cc8a64a9d0402e43b8eee9fc4199 New software releases Microsoft Office XP Professional $49.95 Microsoft Office 2003 Professional with Business Contact Manager for Outlook $69.95 Adobe Photoshop CS3 Extended $89.95 Microsoft Office 2007 Enterprise $79.95 Adobe Acrobat 8.0 Professional $79.95 Microsoft Windows Vista Business $79.95 Microsoft Windows XP Professional with SP2 $49.95 Macromedia Studio 8 $99.95 and other http://qtoqcy.prosoftshop.com From NausueHaire@schumanndata.de Fri Sep 28 02:48:43 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ib9eU-0002fX-Vh for dnsop-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 02:48:42 -0400 Received: from 061244246186.ctinets.com ([61.244.246.186]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ib9eK-0006eM-Ax for dnsop-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 02:48:38 -0400 Received: by 10.237.66.237 with SMTP id zFVzEtfLhrexu; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 14:47:20 +0800 (GMT) Received: by 192.168.200.25 with SMTP id gfqmAbUXpwcuLj.9408931625849; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 14:47:18 +0800 (GMT) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 14:47:15 +0800 From: "Nausue Haire" Reply-To: "Nausue Haire" Message-ID: <136127323650.162105184835@schumanndata.de> To: Subject: aiskuuka MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="windows-1250"; reply-type=original X-Spam-Score: 3.9 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 08e48e05374109708c00c6208b534009 Mining Sector --- Delta Mining UPDATE HOT SECTOR: Additional information on (O_T_C: D M X C) D M X C is expected to arrive soon. For those of you who currently own this company this will be great news. For those that don't currently own this company, you need to get in on this now. The company recently traded as high as .13 and with any significant news should be able to see (if not exceed) those prices again. Contact your broker now, don't miss this opportunity in D M X C! From dnsop-bounces@ietf.org Fri Sep 28 03:24:56 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbA8M-0000Vg-Pl; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 03:19:34 -0400 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbA8L-0000U3-3y; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 03:19:33 -0400 Received: from mx2.nic.fr ([192.134.4.11]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbA8K-0004r4-Q5; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 03:19:33 -0400 Received: from mx2.nic.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mx2.nic.fr (Postfix) with SMTP id 1CB691C00E3; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 09:19:32 +0200 (CEST) Received: from relay2.nic.fr (relay2.nic.fr [192.134.4.163]) by mx2.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0EF31C00E2; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 09:19:31 +0200 (CEST) Received: from bortzmeyer.nic.fr (batilda.nic.fr [192.134.4.69]) by relay2.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id D432958ECCA; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 09:19:31 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 09:19:31 +0200 From: Stephane Bortzmeyer To: Paul Hoffman Message-ID: <20070928071931.GA21696@nic.fr> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Operating-System: Debian GNU/Linux 4.0 X-Kernel: Linux 2.6.18-4-686 i686 Organization: NIC France X-URL: http://www.nic.fr/ User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: de4f315c9369b71d7dd5909b42224370 Cc: dnsop@ietf.org, ietf@ietf.org Subject: [DNSOP] Re: Last Call: draft-ietf-dnsop-reflectors-are-evil (Preventing Use of Recursive Nameservers in Reflector Attacks) to BCP X-BeenThere: dnsop@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF DNSOP WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: dnsop-bounces@ietf.org On Thu, Sep 27, 2007 at 06:45:55PM -0700, Paul Hoffman wrote a message of 36 lines which said: > It ignores one of the main reasons that many organizations purposely > choose to provide recursive lookup to the public, namely for their > own roaming users. No, it is *not* ignored. See section 4, for instance : o Use TSIG [RFC2845] or SIG(0) [RFC2931] signed queries to authenticate the clients. This is a less error prone method, which allows server operators to provide service to clients who change IP address frequently (e.g. roaming clients). VPN are another solution, although not mentioned in the I-D, may be because it is obvious. _______________________________________________ DNSOP mailing list DNSOP@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop From dnsop-bounces@ietf.org Fri Sep 28 03:24:56 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbA8M-0000Vg-Pl; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 03:19:34 -0400 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbA8L-0000U3-3y; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 03:19:33 -0400 Received: from mx2.nic.fr ([192.134.4.11]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbA8K-0004r4-Q5; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 03:19:33 -0400 Received: from mx2.nic.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mx2.nic.fr (Postfix) with SMTP id 1CB691C00E3; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 09:19:32 +0200 (CEST) Received: from relay2.nic.fr (relay2.nic.fr [192.134.4.163]) by mx2.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0EF31C00E2; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 09:19:31 +0200 (CEST) Received: from bortzmeyer.nic.fr (batilda.nic.fr [192.134.4.69]) by relay2.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id D432958ECCA; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 09:19:31 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 09:19:31 +0200 From: Stephane Bortzmeyer To: Paul Hoffman Message-ID: <20070928071931.GA21696@nic.fr> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Operating-System: Debian GNU/Linux 4.0 X-Kernel: Linux 2.6.18-4-686 i686 Organization: NIC France X-URL: http://www.nic.fr/ User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: de4f315c9369b71d7dd5909b42224370 Cc: dnsop@ietf.org, ietf@ietf.org Subject: [DNSOP] Re: Last Call: draft-ietf-dnsop-reflectors-are-evil (Preventing Use of Recursive Nameservers in Reflector Attacks) to BCP X-BeenThere: dnsop@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF DNSOP WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: dnsop-bounces@ietf.org On Thu, Sep 27, 2007 at 06:45:55PM -0700, Paul Hoffman wrote a message of 36 lines which said: > It ignores one of the main reasons that many organizations purposely > choose to provide recursive lookup to the public, namely for their > own roaming users. No, it is *not* ignored. See section 4, for instance : o Use TSIG [RFC2845] or SIG(0) [RFC2931] signed queries to authenticate the clients. This is a less error prone method, which allows server operators to provide service to clients who change IP address frequently (e.g. roaming clients). VPN are another solution, although not mentioned in the I-D, may be because it is obvious. _______________________________________________ DNSOP mailing list DNSOP@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop From sabbah@oneononecoaching.com Fri Sep 28 03:31:05 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbAJS-00046L-GK for dnsop-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 03:31:04 -0400 Received: from outside.radicigroup.com ([194.185.79.193]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbAJO-0005Sv-LP for dnsop-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 03:30:59 -0400 Received: from WXP00083 ([173.132.47.169]:10426 "EHLO WXP00083" smtp-auth: TLS-CIPHER: TLS-PEER-CN1: ) by [194.185.79.193] with ESMTP id S22PBWJEQXFJGCLL (ORCPT ); Fri, 28 Sep 2007 09:31:26 +0200 Message-ID: <000201c801a1$850ddda0$c14fb9c2@WXP00083> From: "Azhar sabbah" To: Subject: muscler Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 09:31:01 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0004_01C801B2.4896ADA0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0ddefe323dd869ab027dbfff7eff0465 ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C801B2.4896ADA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mining Sector --- Delta Mining UPDATE HOT SECTOR: Additional information on (O_T_C: D M X C) D M X C is = expected to arrive soon. 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From dnsop-bounces@ietf.org Fri Sep 28 04:33:04 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbB9i-0003XI-Rx; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 04:25:02 -0400 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ib5dV-0004AC-JQ; Thu, 27 Sep 2007 22:31:25 -0400 Received: from ns.jck.com ([209.187.148.211] helo=bs.jck.com) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ib5dV-0006Bs-2f; Thu, 27 Sep 2007 22:31:25 -0400 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=p3.JCK.COM) by bs.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1Ib5dU-000J3C-7V; Thu, 27 Sep 2007 22:31:24 -0400 Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 22:31:23 -0400 From: John C Klensin To: Paul Hoffman , ietf@ietf.org Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8b431ad66d60be2d47c7bfeb879db82c X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 04:25:01 -0400 Cc: dnsop@ietf.org Subject: [DNSOP] Re: Last Call: draft-ietf-dnsop-reflectors-are-evil (Preventing Use of Recursive Nameservers in Reflector Attacks) to BCP X-BeenThere: dnsop@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF DNSOP WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: dnsop-bounces@ietf.org --On Thursday, 27 September, 2007 18:45 -0700 Paul Hoffman wrote: > The Security Considerations section for this document is much > too narrow. It ignores one of the main reasons that many > organizations purposely choose to provide recursive lookup to > the public, namely for their own roaming users. Without an > open, known-good nameserver at a fixed address, roaming users > need to trust whatever is given to them by their ISP at the > moment, and it is reasonable for organizations to consider >... Hi. I want to express general agreement with Paul's comment, but also to stress the importance of one of the points he has made... Even if one ignores attacks of the usual sorts (i.e., bad acts conducted out of malice or juvenile behavior) the ISP who plays alternate root, DNS query interception and diversion, and similar games is too large for comfort and probably growing. Paul's explanation of this: > - Some ISPs use DNS servers that purposely do not follow the > same good practices that the organization uses. In particular, > some ISPs have used bogus TLDs and name-lookup services to > generate revenue. covers most of the problem, but it is perhaps also useful to point out that some of these ISPs try to block DNS traffic that is not directed to their preferred servers. For many users and enterprises, the warning implicit in not being able to reach their own servers under those circumstances is an important, and security-enhancing, source of information. Of course, some of those ISPs take the next step and divert all DNS traffic, regardless of specified destination, to their own servers, but the fact that simply making recursive nameservers available doesn't solve it (at least absent well-deployed DNSSEC) doesn't mean that the often-useful "use your own server" approach is useless or should be avoided. > The Security Considerations section needs to deal with these > issues, even if they do not change the advice given in section > 4. Yeah. john _______________________________________________ DNSFrom dnsop-bounces@ietf.org Fri Sep 28 04:33:04 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbB9i-0003XI-Rx; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 04:25:02 -0400 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ib5dV-0004AC-JQ; Thu, 27 Sep 2007 22:31:25 -0400 Received: from ns.jck.com ([209.187.148.211] helo=bs.jck.com) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ib5dV-0006Bs-2f; Thu, 27 Sep 2007 22:31:25 -0400 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=p3.JCK.COM) by bs.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1Ib5dU-000J3C-7V; Thu, 27 Sep 2007 22:31:24 -0400 Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 22:31:23 -0400 From: John C Klensin To: Paul Hoffman , ietf@ietf.org Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8b431ad66d60be2d47c7bfeb879db82c X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 04:25:01 -0400 Cc: dnsop@ietf.org Subject: [DNSOP] Re: Last Call: draft-ietf-dnsop-reflectors-are-evil (Preventing Use of Recursive Nameservers in Reflector Attacks) to BCP X-BeenThere: dnsop@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF DNSOP WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: dnsop-bounces@ietf.org --On Thursday, 27 September, 2007 18:45 -0700 Paul Hoffman wrote: > The Security Considerations section for this document is much > too narrow. It ignores one of the main reasons that many > organizations purposely choose to provide recursive lookup to > the public, namely for their own roaming users. Without an > open, known-good nameserver at a fixed address, roaming users > need to trust whatever is given to them by their ISP at the > moment, and it is reasonable for organizations to consider >... Hi. I want to express general agreement with Paul's comment, but also to stress the importance of one of the points he has made... Even if one ignores attacks of the usual sorts (i.e., bad acts conducted out of malice or juvenile behavior) the ISP who plays alternate root, DNS query interception and diversion, and similar games is too large for comfort and probably growing. Paul's explanation of this: > - Some ISPs use DNS servers that purposely do not follow the > same good practices that the organization uses. In particular, > some ISPs have used bogus TLDs and name-lookup services to > generate revenue. covers most of the problem, but it is perhaps also useful to point out that some of these ISPs try to block DNS traffic that is not directed to their preferred servers. For many users and enterprises, the warning implicit in not being able to reach their own servers under those circumstances is an important, and security-enhancing, source of information. Of course, some of those ISPs take the next step and divert all DNS traffic, regardless of specified destination, to their own servers, but the fact that simply making recursive nameservers available doesn't solve it (at least absent well-deployed DNSSEC) doesn't mean that the often-useful "use your own server" approach is useless or should be avoided. > The Security Considerations section needs to deal with these > issues, even if they do not change the advice given in section > 4. Yeah. john _______________________________________________ DNSOP mailing list DNSOP@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop From dnsop-bounces@ietf.org Fri Sep 28 04:33:04 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbB9i-0003QZ-58; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 04:25:02 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ib4vq-0002kL-8B; Thu, 27 Sep 2007 21:46:18 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ib4vj-0008GJ-Tn; Thu, 27 Sep 2007 21:46:18 -0400 Received: from [10.20.30.108] (dsl-63-249-108-169.cruzio.com [63.249.108.169]) (authenticated bits=0) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l8S1jww4047612 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 27 Sep 2007 18:46:00 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from paul.hoffman@vpnc.org) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 18:45:55 -0700 To: ietf@ietf.org From: Paul Hoffman Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e5ba305d0e64821bf3d8bc5d3bb07228 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 04:25:01 -0400 Cc: dnsop@ietf.org Subject: [DNSOP] Re: Last Call: draft-ietf-dnsop-reflectors-are-evil (Preventing Use of Recursive Nameservers in Reflector Attacks) to BCP X-BeenThere: dnsop@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF DNSOP WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: dnsop-bounces@ietf.org The Security Considerations section for this document is much too narrow. It ignores one of the main reasons that many organizations purposely choose to provide recursive lookup to the public, namely for their own roaming users. Without an open, known-good nameserver at a fixed address, roaming users need to trust whatever is given to them by their ISP at the moment, and it is reasonable for organizations to consider this too large of a risk. Unless the organization has a way to tunnel DNS queries back to a non-recursive nameserver (such as through IPsec), having a recursive nameserver available increases the security of their roaming users. There are two major reasons for an organization to not want roaming users to trust locally-assigned DNS servers. - An attacker might have compromised the DHCP server to which the user conntect to point to a compromised DNS server. Although such an attacker can also cause the DHCP server to point to a compromised next-hop router, it is easier and less detectable for most attackers to compromise a DNS server than a router. There are plenty of examples where compromised DNS servers lead to spoofing and MITM attacks. - Some ISPs use DNS servers that purposely do not follow the same good practices that the organization uses. In particular, some ISPs have used bogus TLDs and name-lookup services to generate revenue. The Security Considerations section needs to deal with these issues, even if they do not change the advice given in section 4. --Paul Hoffman, Director --VPN Consortium _______________________________________________ DNSOP mailing list DNSOP@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop OP mailing list DNSOP@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop From dnsop-bounces@ietf.org Fri Sep 28 04:33:04 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbB9i-0003QZ-58; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 04:25:02 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ib4vq-0002kL-8B; Thu, 27 Sep 2007 21:46:18 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ib4vj-0008GJ-Tn; Thu, 27 Sep 2007 21:46:18 -0400 Received: from [10.20.30.108] (dsl-63-249-108-169.cruzio.com [63.249.108.169]) (authenticated bits=0) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l8S1jww4047612 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 27 Sep 2007 18:46:00 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from paul.hoffman@vpnc.org) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 18:45:55 -0700 To: ietf@ietf.org From: Paul Hoffman Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e5ba305d0e64821bf3d8bc5d3bb07228 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 04:25:01 -0400 Cc: dnsop@ietf.org Subject: [DNSOP] Re: Last Call: draft-ietf-dnsop-reflectors-are-evil (Preventing Use of Recursive Nameservers in Reflector Attacks) to BCP X-BeenThere: dnsop@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF DNSOP WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: dnsop-bounces@ietf.org The Security Considerations section for this document is much too narrow. It ignores one of the main reasons that many organizations purposely choose to provide recursive lookup to the public, namely for their own roaming users. Without an open, known-good nameserver at a fixed address, roaming users need to trust whatever is given to them by their ISP at the moment, and it is reasonable for organizations to consider this too large of a risk. Unless the organization has a way to tunnel DNS queries back to a non-recursive nameserver (such as through IPsec), having a recursive nameserver available increases the security of their roaming users. There are two major reasons for an organization to not want roaming users to trust locally-assigned DNS servers. - An attacker might have compromised the DHCP server to which the user conntect to point to a compromised DNS server. Although such an attacker can also cause the DHCP server to point to a compromised next-hop router, it is easier and less detectable for most attackers to compromise a DNS server than a router. There are plenty of examples where compromised DNS servers lead to spoofing and MITM attacks. - Some ISPs use DNS servers that purposely do not follow the same good practices that the organization uses. In particular, some ISPs have used bogus TLDs and name-lookup services to generate revenue. The Security Considerations section needs to deal with these issues, even if they do not change the advice given in section 4. --Paul Hoffman, Director --VPN Consortium _______________________________________________ DNSOP mailing list DNSOP@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop From dnsop-bounces@ietf.org Fri Sep 28 04:33:05 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbB9i-0003QZ-58; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 04:25:02 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ib4vq-0002kL-8B; Thu, 27 Sep 2007 21:46:18 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ib4vj-0008GJ-Tn; Thu, 27 Sep 2007 21:46:18 -0400 Received: from [10.20.30.108] (dsl-63-249-108-169.cruzio.com [63.249.108.169]) (authenticated bits=0) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l8S1jww4047612 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 27 Sep 2007 18:46:00 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from paul.hoffman@vpnc.org) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 18:45:55 -0700 To: ietf@ietf.org From: Paul Hoffman Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e5ba305d0e64821bf3d8bc5d3bb07228 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 04:25:01 -0400 Cc: dnsop@ietf.org Subject: [DNSOP] Re: Last Call: draft-ietf-dnsop-reflectors-are-evil (Preventing Use of Recursive Nameservers in Reflector Attacks) to BCP X-BeenThere: dnsop@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF DNSOP WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: dnsop-bounces@ietf.org The Security Considerations section for this document is much too narrow. It ignores one of the main reasons that many organizations purposely choose to provide recursive lookup to the public, namely for their own roaming users. Without an open, known-good nameserver at a fixed address, roaming users need to trust whatever is given to them by their ISP at the moment, and it is reasonable for organizations to consider this too large of a risk. Unless the organization has a way to tunnel DNS queries back to a non-recursive nameserver (such as through IPsec), having a recursive nameserver available increases the security of their roaming users. There are two major reasons for an organization to not want roaming users to trust locally-assigned DNS servers. - An attacker might have compromised the DHCP server to which the user conntect to point to a compromised DNS server. Although such an attacker can also cause the DHCP server to point to a compromised next-hop router, it is easier and less detectable for most attackers to compromise a DNS server than a router. There are plenty of examples where compromised DNS servers lead to spoofing and MITM attacks. - Some ISPs use DNS servers that purposely do not follow the same good practices that the organization uses. In particular, some ISPs have used bogus TLDs and name-lookup services to generate revenue. The Security Considerations section needs to deal with these issues, even if they do not change the advice given in section 4. --Paul Hoffman, Director --VPN Consortium _______________________________________________ DNSOP mailing list DNSOP@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop From dnsop-bounces@ietf.org Fri Sep 28 04:33:05 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbB9i-0003XI-Rx; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 04:25:02 -0400 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ib5dV-0004AC-JQ; Thu, 27 Sep 2007 22:31:25 -0400 Received: from ns.jck.com ([209.187.148.211] helo=bs.jck.com) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ib5dV-0006Bs-2f; Thu, 27 Sep 2007 22:31:25 -0400 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=p3.JCK.COM) by bs.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1Ib5dU-000J3C-7V; Thu, 27 Sep 2007 22:31:24 -0400 Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 22:31:23 -0400 From: John C Klensin To: Paul Hoffman , ietf@ietf.org Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8b431ad66d60be2d47c7bfeb879db82c X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 04:25:01 -0400 Cc: dnsop@ietf.org Subject: [DNSOP] Re: Last Call: draft-ietf-dnsop-reflectors-are-evil (Preventing Use of Recursive Nameservers in Reflector Attacks) to BCP X-BeenThere: dnsop@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF DNSOP WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: dnsop-bounces@ietf.org --On Thursday, 27 September, 2007 18:45 -0700 Paul Hoffman wrote: > The Security Considerations section for this document is much > too narrow. It ignores one of the main reasons that many > organizations purposely choose to provide recursive lookup to > the public, namely for their own roaming users. Without an > open, known-good nameserver at a fixed address, roaming users > need to trust whatever is given to them by their ISP at the > moment, and it is reasonable for organizations to consider >... Hi. I want to express general agreement with Paul's comment, but also to stress the importance of one of the points he has made... Even if one ignores attacks of the usual sorts (i.e., bad acts conducted out of malice or juvenile behavior) the ISP who plays alternate root, DNS query interception and diversion, and similar games is too large for comfort and probably growing. Paul's explanation of this: > - Some ISPs use DNS servers that purposely do not follow the > same good practices that the organization uses. In particular, > some ISPs have used bogus TLDs and name-lookup services to > generate revenue. covers most of the problem, but it is perhaps also useful to point out that some of these ISPs try to block DNS traffic that is not directed to their preferred servers. For many users and enterprises, the warning implicit in not being able to reach their own servers under those circumstances is an important, and security-enhancing, source of information. Of course, some of those ISPs take the next step and divert all DNS traffic, regardless of specified destination, to their own servers, but the fact that simply making recursive nameservers available doesn't solve it (at least absent well-deployed DNSSEC) doesn't mean that the often-useful "use your own server" approach is useless or should be avoided. > The Security Considerations section needs to deal with these > issues, even if they do not change the advice given in section > 4. Yeah. john _______________________________________________ DNSOP mailing list DNSOP@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop From Soderberg@classicpromo.com Fri Sep 28 06:02:13 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbCfl-0004KV-Bg for dnsop-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 06:02:13 -0400 Received: from limbo.altec.pl ([194.150.197.226]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbCfg-00012y-KC for dnsop-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 06:02:09 -0400 Received: from a-s6p1dususgp9x ([198.163.103.20]:13653 "EHLO a-s6p1dususgp9x" smtp-auth: TLS-CIPHER: TLS-PEER-CN1: ) by [194.150.197.226] with ESMTP id S22DHYNTSMZAWRRC (ORCPT ); Fri, 28 Sep 2007 12:02:25 +0200 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 12:02:12 +0200 To: dnsop-archive@ietf.org From: "Memphis Soderberg" Subject: uzremeor Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 08e48e05374109708c00c6208b534009 Mining Sector --- Delta Mining UPDATE HOT SECTOR: Additional information on (O_T_C: D M X C) D M X C is expected to arrive soon. For those of you who currently own this company this will be great news. For those that don't currently own this company, you need to get in on this now. The company recently traded as high as .13 and with any significant news should be able to see (if not exceed) those prices again. Contact your broker now, don't miss this opportunity in D M X C! From dnsop-bounces@ietf.org Fri Sep 28 06:21:44 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbCtA-0006Om-9q; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 06:16:04 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbCt9-0006Kz-C0; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 06:16:03 -0400 Received: from bartok.nlnetlabs.nl ([2001:7b8:206:1:216:76ff:feb8:3c02]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbCt8-0003Ww-WA; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 06:16:03 -0400 Received: from bartok.nlnetlabs.nl (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by bartok.nlnetlabs.nl (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l8SAFwfq087916; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 12:15:58 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from jaap@bartok.nlnetlabs.nl) Message-Id: <200709281015.l8SAFwfq087916@bartok.nlnetlabs.nl> To: ietf@ietf.org, dnsop@ietf.org In-reply-to: Your message of Thu, 27 Sep 2007 18:45:55 -0700. Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 12:15:58 +0200 From: Jaap Akkerhuis X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,AWL,BAYES_00, MISSING_MID autolearn=ham version=3.2.3 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on bartok.nlnetlabs.nl X-Spam-Score: -1.4 (-) X-Scan-Signature: 7bac9cb154eb5790ae3b2913587a40de Cc: Subject: [DNSOP] Re: Last Call: draft-ietf-dnsop-reflectors-are-evil (Preventing Use of Recursive Nameservers in Reflector Attacks) to BCP X-BeenThere: dnsop@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF DNSOP WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: dnsop-bounces@ietf.org There are two major reasons for an organization to not want roaming users to trust locally-assigned DNS servers. Open recursive servers doesn't help in against man in the middle attacks. If you want to avoid that use VPN's or (for DNS) TSIG. I seem to remember that the ID actually mentions that. jaap _______________________________________________ DNSOP mailing list DNSOP@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop From dnsop-bounces@ietf.org Fri Sep 28 06:21:44 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbCtA-0006Om-9q; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 06:16:04 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbCt9-0006Kz-C0; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 06:16:03 -0400 Received: from bartok.nlnetlabs.nl ([2001:7b8:206:1:216:76ff:feb8:3c02]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbCt8-0003Ww-WA; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 06:16:03 -0400 Received: from bartok.nlnetlabs.nl (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by bartok.nlnetlabs.nl (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l8SAFwfq087916; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 12:15:58 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from jaap@bartok.nlnetlabs.nl) Message-Id: <200709281015.l8SAFwfq087916@bartok.nlnetlabs.nl> To: ietf@ietf.org, dnsop@ietf.org In-reply-to: Your message of Thu, 27 Sep 2007 18:45:55 -0700. Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 12:15:58 +0200 From: Jaap Akkerhuis X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,AWL,BAYES_00, MISSING_MID autolearn=ham version=3.2.3 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on bartok.nlnetlabs.nl X-Spam-Score: -1.4 (-) X-Scan-Signature: 7bac9cb154eb5790ae3b2913587a40de Cc: Subject: [DNSOP] Re: Last Call: draft-ietf-dnsop-reflectors-are-evil (Preventing Use of Recursive Nameservers in Reflector Attacks) to BCP X-BeenThere: dnsop@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF DNSOP WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: dnsop-bounces@ietf.org There are two major reasons for an organization to not want roaming users to trust locally-assigned DNS servers. Open recursive servers doesn't help in against man in the middle attacks. If you want to avoid that use VPN's or (for DNS) TSIG. I seem to remember that the ID actually mentions that. jaap _______________________________________________ DNSOP mailing list DNSOP@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop From dnsop-bounces@ietf.org Fri Sep 28 07:26:16 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbDuS-0008Va-J1; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 07:21:28 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbDuQ-0008Pt-0C; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 07:21:26 -0400 Received: from mx.isc.org ([2001:4f8:0:2::1c]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbDuF-00057h-Pk; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 07:21:21 -0400 Received: from farside.isc.org (farside.isc.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:3:bb::5]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "farside.isc.org", Issuer "ISC CA" (verified OK)) by mx.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37FA911407F; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 11:20:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from Joao_Damas@isc.org) Received: from [204.62.249.36] (core.c-l-i.net [204.62.249.36]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by farside.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BA47E6058; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 11:20:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from Joao_Damas@isc.org) In-Reply-To: <200709281015.l8SAFwfq087916@bartok.nlnetlabs.nl> References: <200709281015.l8SAFwfq087916@bartok.nlnetlabs.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <3B1D547E-0F40-4A6D-B786-EB765E58A7F2@isc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Joao Damas Subject: Re: [DNSOP] Re: Last Call: draft-ietf-dnsop-reflectors-are-evil (Preventing Use of Recursive Nameservers in Reflector Attacks) to BCP Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 13:20:53 +0200 To: Jaap Akkerhuis X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) X-Spam-Score: 1.2 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 9182cfff02fae4f1b6e9349e01d62f32 Cc: dnsop@ietf.org, ietf@ietf.org X-BeenThere: dnsop@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF DNSOP WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: dnsop-bounces@ietf.org It does indeed as Stephane pointed out. Opening up your resolver so you can server roaming users, without further protection, is, at best, naive. Joao On 28 Sep 2007, at 12:15, Jaap Akkerhuis wrote: > > There are two major reasons for an organization to not want > roaming > users to trust locally-assigned DNS servers. > > Open recursive servers doesn't help in against man in the middle > attacks. If you want to avoid that use VPN's or (for DNS) TSIG. > > I seem to remember that the ID actually mentions that. > > jaap > > _______________________________________________ > DNSOP mailing list > DNSOP@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop _______________________________________________ DNSOP mailing list DNSOP@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop From dnsop-bounces@ietf.org Fri Sep 28 07:26:16 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbDu3-00082Z-Fh; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 07:21:03 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbDu1-00082R-Rb; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 07:21:01 -0400 Received: from s-dc-exrz03.rcnet.cec.eu.int ([147.67.1.202]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbDtv-000573-Je; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 07:21:01 -0400 Received: from S-DC-EXRJ02.net1.cec.eu.int ([158.167.59.153]) by s-dc-exrz03.rcnet.cec.eu.int with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.2499); Fri, 28 Sep 2007 13:20:27 +0200 Received: from S-DC-EXM15.net1.cec.eu.int ([158.167.183.14]) by S-DC-EXRJ02.net1.cec.eu.int with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.24From dnsop-bounces@ietf.org Fri Sep 28 07:26:16 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbDuS-0008Va-J1; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 07:21:28 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbDuQ-0008Pt-0C; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 07:21:26 -0400 Received: from mx.isc.org ([2001:4f8:0:2::1c]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbDuF-00057h-Pk; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 07:21:21 -0400 Received: from farside.isc.org (farside.isc.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:3:bb::5]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "farside.isc.org", Issuer "ISC CA" (verified OK)) by mx.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37FA911407F; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 11:20:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from Joao_Damas@isc.org) Received: from [204.62.249.36] (core.c-l-i.net [204.62.249.36]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by farside.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BA47E6058; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 11:20:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from Joao_Damas@isc.org) In-Reply-To: <200709281015.l8SAFwfq087916@bartok.nlnetlabs.nl> References: <200709281015.l8SAFwfq087916@bartok.nlnetlabs.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <3B1D547E-0F40-4A6D-B786-EB765E58A7F2@isc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Joao Damas Subject: Re: [DNSOP] Re: Last Call: draft-ietf-dnsop-reflectors-are-evil (Preventing Use of Recursive Nameservers in Reflector Attacks) to BCP Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 13:20:53 +0200 To: Jaap Akkerhuis X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) X-Spam-Score: 1.2 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 9182cfff02fae4f1b6e9349e01d62f32 Cc: dnsop@ietf.org, ietf@ietf.org X-BeenThere: dnsop@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF DNSOP WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: dnsop-bounces@ietf.org It does indeed as Stephane pointed out. Opening up your resolver so you can server roaming users, without further protection, is, at best, naive. Joao On 28 Sep 2007, at 12:15, Jaap Akkerhuis wrote: > > There are two major reasons for an organization to not want > roaming > users to trust locally-assigned DNS servers. > > Open recursive servers doesn't help in against man in the middle > attacks. If you want to avoid that use VPN's or (for DNS) TSIG. > > I seem to remember that the ID actually mentions that. > > jaap > > _______________________________________________ > DNSOP mailing list > DNSOP@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop _______________________________________________ DNSOP mailing list DNSOP@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop From dnsop-bounces@ietf.org Fri Sep 28 07:26:16 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbDu3-00082Z-Fh; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 07:21:03 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbDu1-00082R-Rb; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 07:21:01 -0400 Received: from s-dc-exrz03.rcnet.cec.eu.int ([147.67.1.202]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbDtv-000573-Je; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 07:21:01 -0400 Received: from S-DC-EXRJ02.net1.cec.eu.int ([158.167.59.153]) by s-dc-exrz03.rcnet.cec.eu.int with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.2499); Fri, 28 Sep 2007 13:20:27 +0200 Received: from S-DC-EXM15.net1.cec.eu.int ([158.167.183.14]) by S-DC-EXRJ02.net1.cec.eu.int with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.2499); Fri, 28 Sep 2007 13:20:27 +0200 Received: from mail pickup service by S-DC-EXM15.net1.cec.eu.int with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 13:19:50 +0200 Received: from S-DC-EXRB82.net1.cec.eu.int ([158.167.189.155]) by S-DC-EXM15.net1.cec.eu.int with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.2499); Fri, 28 Sep 2007 12:48:27 +0200 Received: from S-DC-EXRJ01.net1.cec.eu.int ([158.167.59.142]) by S-DC-EXRB82.net1.cec.eu.int with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.2499); Fri, 28 Sep 2007 12:41:11 +0200 Received: from s-dc-exrz02.rcnet.cec.eu.int ([147.67.1.201]) by S-DC-EXRJ01.net1.cec.eu.int with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.2499); Fri, 28 Sep 2007 12:41:11 +0200 Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([156.154.16.145]) by s-dc-exrz02.rcnet.cec.eu.int with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.2499); Fri, 28 Sep 2007 12:41:10 +0200 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbCtB-0006Sk-8a; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 06:16:05 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbCt9-0006Kz-C0; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 06:16:03 -0400 Received: from bartok.nlnetlabs.nl ([2001:7b8:206:1:216:76ff:feb8:3c02]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbCt8-0003Ww-WA; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 06:16:03 -0400 Received: from bartok.nlnetlabs.nl (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by bartok.nlnetlabs.nl (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l8SAFwfq087916; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 12:15:58 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from jaap@bartok.nlnetlabs.nl) Message-Id: <200709281015.l8SAFwfq087916@bartok.nlnetlabs.nl> To: ietf@ietf.org, dnsop@ietf.org In-reply-to: Your message of Thu, 27 Sep 2007 18:45:55 -0700. Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 12:15:58 +0200 From: Jaap Akkerhuis X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,AWL,BAYES_00, MISSING_MID autolearn=ham version=3.2.3 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on bartok.nlnetlabs.nl X-Spam-Score: -1.4 (-) X-Scan-Signature: 7bac9cb154eb5790ae3b2913587a40de X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Sep 2007 10:41:10.0471 (UTC) FILETIME=[15688570:01C801BC] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cf4fa59384e76e63313391b70cd0dd25 Cc: Subject: [DNSOP] Re: Last Call: draft-ietf-dnsop-reflectors-are-evil (Preventing Use of Recursive Nameservers in Reflector Attacks) to BCP X-BeenThere: dnsop@ietf.org List-Id: IETF DNSOP WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: dnsop-bounces@ietf.org There are two major reasons for an organization to not want roaming users to trust locally-assigned DNS servers. Open recursive servers doesn't help in against man in the middle attacks. If you want to avoid that use VPN's or (for DNS) TSIG. I seem to remember that the ID actually mentions that. jaap _______________________________________________ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf _______________________________________________ DNSOP mailing list DNSOP@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop 99); Fri, 28 Sep 2007 13:20:27 +0200 Received: from mail pickup service by S-DC-EXM15.net1.cec.eu.int with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 13:19:50 +0200 Received: from S-DC-EXRB82.net1.cec.eu.int ([158.167.189.155]) by S-DC-EXM15.net1.cec.eu.int with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.2499); Fri, 28 Sep 2007 12:48:27 +0200 Received: from S-DC-EXRJ01.net1.cec.eu.int ([158.167.59.142]) by S-DC-EXRB82.net1.cec.eu.int with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.2499); Fri, 28 Sep 2007 12:41:11 +0200 Received: from s-dc-exrz02.rcnet.cec.eu.int ([147.67.1.201]) by S-DC-EXRJ01.net1.cec.eu.int with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.2499); Fri, 28 Sep 2007 12:41:11 +0200 Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([156.154.16.145]) by s-dc-exrz02.rcnet.cec.eu.int with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.2499); Fri, 28 Sep 2007 12:41:10 +0200 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbCtB-0006Sk-8a; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 06:16:05 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbCt9-0006Kz-C0; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 06:16:03 -0400 Received: from bartok.nlnetlabs.nl ([2001:7b8:206:1:216:76ff:feb8:3c02]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbCt8-0003Ww-WA; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 06:16:03 -0400 Received: from bartok.nlnetlabs.nl (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by bartok.nlnetlabs.nl (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l8SAFwfq087916; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 12:15:58 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from jaap@bartok.nlnetlabs.nl) Message-Id: <200709281015.l8SAFwfq087916@bartok.nlnetlabs.nl> To: ietf@ietf.org, dnsop@ietf.org In-reply-to: Your message of Thu, 27 Sep 2007 18:45:55 -0700. Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 12:15:58 +0200 From: Jaap Akkerhuis X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,AWL,BAYES_00, MISSING_MID autolearn=ham version=3.2.3 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on bartok.nlnetlabs.nl X-Spam-Score: -1.4 (-) X-Scan-Signature: 7bac9cb154eb5790ae3b2913587a40de X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Sep 2007 10:41:10.0471 (UTC) FILETIME=[15688570:01C801BC] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cf4fa59384e76e63313391b70cd0dd25 Cc: Subject: [DNSOP] Re: Last Call: draft-ietf-dnsop-reflectors-are-evil (Preventing Use of Recursive Nameservers in Reflector Attacks) to BCP X-BeenThere: dnsop@ietf.org List-Id: IETF DNSOP WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: dnsop-bounces@ietf.org There are two major reasons for an organization to not want roaming users to trust locally-assigned DNS servers. Open recursive servers doesn't help in against man in the middle attacks. If you want to avoid that use VPN's or (for DNS) TSIG. I seem to remember that the ID actually mentions that. jaap _______________________________________________ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf _______________________________________________ DNSOP mailing list DNSOP@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop From dnsop-bounces@ietf.org Fri Sep 28 07:26:16 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbDu3-00082Z-Fh; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 07:21:03 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbDu1-00082R-Rb; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 07:21:01 -0400 Received: from s-dc-exrz03.rcnet.cec.eu.int ([147.67.1.202]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbDtv-000573-Je; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 07:21:01 -0400 Received: from S-DC-EXRJ02.net1.cec.eu.int ([158.167.59.153]) by s-dc-exrz03.rcnet.cec.eu.int with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.2499); Fri, 28 Sep 2007 13:20:27 +0200 Received: from S-DC-EXM15.net1.cec.eu.int ([158.167.183.14]) by S-DC-EXRJ02.net1.cec.eu.int with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.2499); Fri, 28 Sep 2007 13:20:27 +0200 Received: from mail pickup service by S-DC-EXM15.net1.cec.eu.int with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 13:19:50 +0200 Received: from S-DC-EXRB82.net1.cec.eu.int ([158.167.189.155]) by S-DC-EXM15.net1.cec.eu.int with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.2499); Fri, 28 Sep 2007 12:48:27 +0200 Received: from S-DC-EXRJ01.net1.cec.eu.int ([158.167.59.142]) by S-DC-EXRB82.net1.cec.eu.int with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.2499); Fri, 28 Sep 2007 12:41:11 +0200 Received: from s-dc-exrz02.rcnet.cec.eu.int ([147.67.1.201]) by S-DC-EXRJ01.net1.cec.eu.int with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.2499); Fri, 28 Sep 2007 12:41:11 +0200 Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([156.154.16.145]) by s-dc-exrz02.rcnet.cec.eu.int with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.2499); Fri, 28 Sep 2007 12:41:10 +0200 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbCtB-0006Sk-8a; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 06:16:05 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbCt9-0006Kz-C0; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 06:16:03 -0400 Received: from bartok.nlnetlabs.nl ([2001:7b8:206:1:216:76ff:feb8:3c02]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbCt8-0003Ww-WA; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 06:16:03 -0400 Received: from bartok.nlnetlabs.nl (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by bartok.nlnetlabs.nl (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l8SAFwfq087916; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 12:15:58 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from jaap@bartok.nlnetlabs.nl) Message-Id: <200709281015.l8SAFwfq087916@bartok.nlnetlabs.nl> To: ietf@ietf.org, dnsop@ietf.org In-reply-to: Your message of Thu, 27 Sep 2007 18:45:55 -0700. Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 12:15:58 +0200 From: Jaap Akkerhuis X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,AWL,BAYES_00, MISSING_MID autolearn=ham version=3.2.3 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on bartok.nlnetlabs.nl X-Spam-Score: -1.4 (-) X-Scan-Signature: 7bac9cb154eb5790ae3b2913587a40de X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Sep 2007 10:41:10.0471 (UTC) FILETIME=[15688570:01C801BC] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cf4fa59384e76e63313391b70cd0dd25 Cc: Subject: [DNSOP] Re: Last Call: draft-ietf-dnsop-reflectors-are-evil (Preventing Use of Recursive Nameservers in Reflector Attacks) to BCP X-BeenThere: dnsop@ietf.org List-Id: IETF DNSOP WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: dnsop-bounces@ietf.org There are two major reasons for an organization to not want roaming users to trust locally-assigned DNS servers. Open recursive servers doesn't help in against man in the middle attacks. If you want to avoid that use VPN's or (for DNS) TSIG. I seem to remember that the ID actually mentions tFrom dnsop-bounces@ietf.org Fri Sep 28 07:26:16 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbDu3-00082Z-Fh; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 07:21:03 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbDu1-00082R-Rb; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 07:21:01 -0400 Received: from s-dc-exrz03.rcnet.cec.eu.int ([147.67.1.202]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbDtv-000573-Je; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 07:21:01 -0400 Received: from S-DC-EXRJ02.net1.cec.eu.int ([158.167.59.153]) by s-dc-exrz03.rcnet.cec.eu.int with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.2499); Fri, 28 Sep 2007 13:20:27 +0200 Received: from S-DC-EXM15.net1.cec.eu.int ([158.167.183.14]) by S-DC-EXRJ02.net1.cec.eu.int with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.2499); Fri, 28 Sep 2007 13:20:27 +0200 Received: from mail pickup service by S-DC-EXM15.net1.cec.eu.int with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 13:19:50 +0200 Received: from S-DC-EXRB82.net1.cec.eu.int ([158.167.189.155]) by S-DC-EXM15.net1.cec.eu.int with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.2499); Fri, 28 Sep 2007 12:48:27 +0200 Received: from S-DC-EXRJ01.net1.cec.eu.int ([158.167.59.142]) by S-DC-EXRB82.net1.cec.eu.int with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.2499); Fri, 28 Sep 2007 12:41:11 +0200 Received: from s-dc-exrz02.rcnet.cec.eu.int ([147.67.1.201]) by S-DC-EXRJ01.net1.cec.eu.int with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.2499); Fri, 28 Sep 2007 12:41:11 +0200 Received: from megatron.ietf.org ([156.154.16.145]) by s-dc-exrz02.rcnet.cec.eu.int with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.2499); Fri, 28 Sep 2007 12:41:10 +0200 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbCtB-0006Sk-8a; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 06:16:05 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbCt9-0006Kz-C0; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 06:16:03 -0400 Received: from bartok.nlnetlabs.nl ([2001:7b8:206:1:216:76ff:feb8:3c02]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbCt8-0003Ww-WA; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 06:16:03 -0400 Received: from bartok.nlnetlabs.nl (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by bartok.nlnetlabs.nl (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l8SAFwfq087916; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 12:15:58 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from jaap@bartok.nlnetlabs.nl) Message-Id: <200709281015.l8SAFwfq087916@bartok.nlnetlabs.nl> To: ietf@ietf.org, dnsop@ietf.org In-reply-to: Your message of Thu, 27 Sep 2007 18:45:55 -0700. Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 12:15:58 +0200 From: Jaap Akkerhuis X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 required=5.0 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,AWL,BAYES_00, MISSING_MID autolearn=ham version=3.2.3 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on bartok.nlnetlabs.nl X-Spam-Score: -1.4 (-) X-Scan-Signature: 7bac9cb154eb5790ae3b2913587a40de X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Sep 2007 10:41:10.0471 (UTC) FILETIME=[15688570:01C801BC] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cf4fa59384e76e63313391b70cd0dd25 Cc: Subject: [DNSOP] Re: Last Call: draft-ietf-dnsop-reflectors-are-evil (Preventing Use of Recursive Nameservers in Reflector Attacks) to BCP X-BeenThere: dnsop@ietf.org List-Id: IETF DNSOP WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: dnsop-bounces@ietf.org There are two major reasons for an organization to not want roaming users to trust locally-assigned DNS servers. Open recursive servers doesn't help in against man in the middle attacks. If you want to avoid that use VPN's or (for DNS) TSIG. I seem to remember that the ID actually mentions that. jaap _______________________________________________ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf _______________________________________________ DNSOP mailing list DNSOP@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop From dnsop-bounces@ietf.org Fri Sep 28 07:26:16 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbDuS-0008Va-J1; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 07:21:28 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbDuQ-0008Pt-0C; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 07:21:26 -0400 Received: from mx.isc.org ([2001:4f8:0:2::1c]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbDuF-00057h-Pk; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 07:21:21 -0400 Received: from farside.isc.org (farside.isc.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:3:bb::5]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "farside.isc.org", Issuer "ISC CA" (verified OK)) by mx.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37FA911407F; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 11:20:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from Joao_Damas@isc.org) Received: from [204.62.249.36] (core.c-l-i.net [204.62.249.36]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by farside.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BA47E6058; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 11:20:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from Joao_Damas@isc.org) In-Reply-To: <200709281015.l8SAFwfq087916@bartok.nlnetlabs.nl> References: <200709281015.l8SAFwfq087916@bartok.nlnetlabs.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <3B1D547E-0F40-4A6D-B786-EB765E58A7F2@isc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Joao Damas Subject: Re: [DNSOP] Re: Last Call: draft-ietf-dnsop-reflectors-are-evil (Preventing Use of Recursive Nameservers in Reflector Attacks) to BCP Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 13:20:53 +0200 To: Jaap Akkerhuis X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) X-Spam-Score: 1.2 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 9182cfff02fae4f1b6e9349e01d62f32 Cc: dnsop@ietf.org, ietf@ietf.org X-BeenThere: dnsop@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF DNSOP WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: dnsop-bounces@ietf.org It does indeed as Stephane pointed out. Opening up your resolver so you can server roaming users, without further protection, is, at best, naive. Joao On 28 Sep 2007, at 12:15, Jaap Akkerhuis wrote: > > There are two major reasons for an organization to not want > roaming > users to trust locally-assigned DNS servers. > > Open recursive servers doesn't help in against man in the middle > attacks. If you want to avoid that use VPN's or (for DNS) TSIG. > > I seem to remember that the ID actually mentions that. > > jaap > > _______________________________________________ > DNSOP mailing list > DNSOP@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop _______________________________________________ DNSOP mailing list DNSOP@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop hat. jaap _______________________________________________ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf _______________________________________________ DNSOP mailing list DNSOP@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop From dnsop-bounces@ietf.org Fri Sep 28 07:26:16 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbDuS-0008Va-J1; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 07:21:28 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbDuQ-0008Pt-0C; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 07:21:26 -0400 Received: from mx.isc.org ([2001:4f8:0:2::1c]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbDuF-00057h-Pk; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 07:21:21 -0400 Received: from farside.isc.org (farside.isc.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:3:bb::5]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "farside.isc.org", Issuer "ISC CA" (verified OK)) by mx.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37FA911407F; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 11:20:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from Joao_Damas@isc.org) Received: from [204.62.249.36] (core.c-l-i.net [204.62.249.36]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by farside.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BA47E6058; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 11:20:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from Joao_Damas@isc.org) In-Reply-To: <200709281015.l8SAFwfq087916@bartok.nlnetlabs.nl> References: <200709281015.l8SAFwfq087916@bartok.nlnetlabs.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <3B1D547E-0F40-4A6D-B786-EB765E58A7F2@isc.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Joao Damas Subject: Re: [DNSOP] Re: Last Call: draft-ietf-dnsop-reflectors-are-evil (Preventing Use of Recursive Nameservers in Reflector Attacks) to BCP Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 13:20:53 +0200 To: Jaap Akkerhuis X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) X-Spam-Score: 1.2 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 9182cfff02fae4f1b6e9349e01d62f32 Cc: dnsop@ietf.org, ietf@ietf.org X-BeenThere: dnsop@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF DNSOP WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: dnsop-bounces@ietf.org It does indeed as Stephane pointed out. Opening up your resolver so you can server roaming users, without further protection, is, at best, naive. Joao On 28 Sep 2007, at 12:15, Jaap Akkerhuis wrote: > > There are two major reasons for an organization to not want > roaming > users to trust locally-assigned DNS servers. > > Open recursive servers doesn't help in against man in the middle > attacks. If you want to avoid that use VPN's or (for DNS) TSIG. > > I seem to remember that the ID actually mentions that. > > jaap > > _______________________________________________ > DNSOP mailing list > DNSOP@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop _______________________________________________ DNSOP mailing list DNSOP@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop From Kalland@b.haunted.com Fri Sep 28 09:12:33 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbFdx-0004Ac-Pe for dnsop-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 09:12:33 -0400 Received: from c953c579.virtua.com.br ([201.83.197.121]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbFdk-0006SW-1G for dnsop-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 09:12:22 -0400 Received: from JUNIOR ([104.189.14.95] helo=JUNIOR) by c953c579.virtua.com.br ( sendmail 8.13.3/8.13.1) with esmtpa id 1Ixbwq-000VBY-Jg for dnsop-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 27 Sep 2007 10:15:38 -0300 Message-ID: <000201c80108$740e75d0$79c553c9@JUNIOR> From: "Jaideep Kalland" To: Subject: hsitimre Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 10:15:19 -0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0009_01C800EF.4EC13DD0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 1.2 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 0ddefe323dd869ab027dbfff7eff0465 ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C800EF.4EC13DD0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mining Sector --- Delta Mining UPDATE HOT SECTOR: Additional information on (O_T_C: D M X C) D M X C is = expected to arrive soon. 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    ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C800EF.4EC13DD0-- From dnsop-bounces@ietf.org Fri Sep 28 11:13:23 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbHQN-0004zc-9Y; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 11:06:39 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbHQM-0004zM-A3; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 11:06:38 -0400 Received: from ns.jck.com ([209.187.148.211] helo=bs.jck.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbHQF-0002Fv-Tq; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 11:06:38 -0400 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=p3.JCK.COM) by bs.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1IbHQ1-000ClS-Vl; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 11:06:18 -0400 Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 11:06:17 -0400 From: John C Klensin To: Mark Andrews , Iljitsch van Beijnum Subject: Re: [DNSOP] Re: getaddrinfo() and searching Message-ID: <3B7852836BF61953FE9B95BA@p3.JCK.COM> In-Reply-To: <200709272348.l8RNmc7a037161@drugs.dv.isc.org> References: <200709272348.l8RNmc7a037161@drugs.dv.isc.org> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: c3a18ef96977fc9bcc21a621cbf1174b Cc: dnsop@ietf.org, ipv6@ietf.org, IETF-Discussion Discussion X-BeenThere: dnsop@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF DNSOP WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: dnsop-bounces@ietf.org --On Friday, 28 September, 2007 09:48 +1000 Mark Andrews wrote: >... >> It's not. Even without IPv6, having search domains means you >> can get unexpected results. If that's not acceptable, don't >> complain, but put a period behind your FQDNs. > > Please state were in RFC 952 a final period is legal in > a hostname. > > Remember applications take HOSTNAMES not DOMAIN NAMES. > There are HOSTNAMES that you cannot store in the DNS. > There are DOMAIN NAMES that are not legal HOSTNAMES. Mark, your recollection and understanding of history and vocabulary may be different from mine (and probably is), but I think you are getting confused by some informal terminology and risking confusing others even further. RFC 952 in fact prohibits trailing periods in domain names used as host names, but 952 is a very early document, superceded by all sorts of things both formally and informally. I note, for example, that it has been a rather long time since every boundary router on the network (a "gateway") had a name ending in "-GW" or "-GATEWAY". Please don't read sentences of 952 out of context and consider them binding. You will not find the "hostname" versus "domain" distinction made in RFC 1034. 1034 and its conceptual predecessors discusses the domain name system as a replacement for the hostname one and even notes (correctly) that different applications have different syntax rules for names for hosts. To make the ambiguity worse, when the term "host" or "hostname" is used in applications in conjunction with the DNS, that term often refers to the leaf-note label and not to the FQDN. See, for example, section 3.7 of RFC 821, which describes "Fred.Cambridge.UK" as a possible "host-and-domain identifier". However, the familiar "mailbox" is defined as ::= "@" Note that it is not "@" or "@" RFC 1034 also seems to believe that all fully-qualified (aka "absolute") domains names, including those used to refer to hosts, end in a period, even if that period is typographically omitted for convenience. Of course, it also contains a masterwork of apparently-circular definition: "A domain is identified by a domain name, and consists of that part of the domain name space that is at or below the domain name which specifies the domain." While 1034 suggests that the trailing period is always permitted, even if it is implied, Section 2.3.1 of 1035 gives a syntax that doesn't permit them. But it does so without trying to distinguish between a "host" and a "domain". In particular, it says that [all of] "The labels must follow the rules for ARPANET host names", which is ultimately a reference to 952 although 1035 repeats the rule. That rule is applied to all labels, not just the leaf one or ones identifying hosts. As an indirect illustration of this, note that 1035 Section 3.5 describes IN-ADDR.ARPA as supporting "host address to host name mapping". That mapping is to an FQDN, not a label or "hostname" as you use the term above. RFC 1123 makes explicit provision for trailing dots in application interfaces to domain names ("hosts") while noting that RFC 822 (and 821) do not permit that syntax in the protocols. Nothing has ever permitted a UI designer, even for a mail-related program, from accepting the trailing dot as long as it is removed (and any searching or aliases resolved) before the name goes out on the wire. So I believe the distinction you are trying to make is not historically supported, not particularly helpful, ambiguous, and probably just plain wrong. regards, john _______________________________________________ DNSOP mailing list DNSOP@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop From dnsop-bounces@ietf.org Fri Sep 28 11:13:23 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbHQN-0004zc-9Y; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 11:06:39 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbHQM-0004zM-A3; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 11:06:38 -0400 Received: from ns.jck.com ([209.187.148.211] helo=bs.jck.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbHQF-0002Fv-Tq; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 11:06:38 -0400 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=p3.JCK.COM) by bs.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1IbHQ1-000ClS-Vl; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 11:06:18 -0400 Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 11:06:17 -0400 From: John C Klensin To: Mark Andrews , Iljitsch van Beijnum Subject: Re: [DNSOP] Re: getaddrinfo() and searching Message-ID: <3B7852836BF61953FE9B95BA@p3.JCK.COM> In-Reply-To: <200709272348.l8RNmc7a037161@drugs.dv.isc.org> References: <200709272348.l8RNmc7a037161@drugs.dv.isc.org> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.8 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: c3a18ef96977fc9bcc21a621cbf1174b Cc: dnsop@ietf.org, ipv6@ietf.org, IETF-Discussion Discussion X-BeenThere: dnsop@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF DNSOP WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: dnsop-bounces@ietf.org --On Friday, 28 September, 2007 09:48 +1000 Mark Andrews wrote: >... >> It's not. Even without IPv6, having search domains means you >> can get unexpected results. If that's not acceptable, don't >> complain, but put a period behind your FQDNs. > > Please state were in RFC 952 a final period is legal in > a hostname. > > Remember applications take HOSTNAMES not DOMAIN NAMES. > There are HOSTNAMES that you cannot store in the DNS. > There are DOMAIN NAMES that are not legal HOSTNAMES. Mark, your recollection and understanding of history and vocabulary may be different from mine (and probably is), but I think you are getting confused by some informal terminology and risking confusing others even further. RFC 952 in fact prohibits trailing periods in domain names used as host names, but 952 is a very early document, superceded by all sorts of things both formally and informally. I note, for example, that it has been a rather long time since every boundary router on the network (a "gateway") had a name ending in "-GW" or "-GATEWAY". Please don't read sentences of 952 out of context and consider them binding. You will not find the "hostname" versus "domain" distinction made in RFC 1034. 1034 and its conceptual predecessors discusses the domain name system as a replacement for the hostname one and even notes (correctly) that different applications have different syntax rules for names for hosts. To make the ambiguity worse, when the term "host" or "hostname" is used in applications in conjunction with the DNS, that term often refers to the leaf-note label and not to the FQDN. See, for example, section 3.7 of RFC 821, which describes "Fred.Cambridge.UK" as a possible "host-and-domain identifier". However, the familiar "mailbox" is defined as ::= "@" Note that it is not "@" or "@" RFC 1034 also seems to believe that all fully-qualified (aka "absolute") domains names, including those used to refer to hosts, end in a period, even if that period is typographically omitted for convenience. Of course, it also contains a masterwork of apparently-circular definition: "A domain is identified by a domain name, and consists of that part of the domain name space that is at or below the domain name which specifies the domain." While 1034 suggests that the trailing period is always permitted, even if it is implied, Section 2.3.1 of 1035 gives a syntax that doesn't permit them. But it does so without trying to distinguish between a "host" and a "domain". In particular, it says that [all of] "The labels must follow the rules for ARPANET host names", which is ultimately a reference to 952 although 1035 repeats the rule. That rule is applied to all labels, not just the leaf one or ones identifying hosts. As an indirect illustration of this, note that 1035 Section 3.5 describes IN-ADDR.ARPA as supporting "host address to host name mapping". That mapping is to an FQDN, not a label or "hostname" as you use the term above. RFC 1123 makes explicit provision for trailing dots in application interfaces to domain names ("hosts") while noting that RFC 822 (and 821) do not permit that syntax in the protocols. Nothing has ever permitted a UI designer, even for a mail-related program, from accepting the trailing dot as long as it is removed (and any searching or aliases resolved) before the name goes out on the wire. So I believe the distinction you are trying to make is not historically supported, not particularly helpful, ambiguous, and probably just plain wrong. regards, john _______________________________________________ DNSOP mailing list DNSOP@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop From dnsop-bounces@ietf.org Fri Sep 28 11:39:14 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbHsy-00044y-QD; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 11:36:12 -0400 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbHsw-00044S-Di; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 11:36:10 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbHsv-0002FX-S4; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 11:36:10 -0400 Received: from [10.20.30.108] (dsl-63-249-108-169.cruzio.com [63.249.108.169]) (authenticated bits=0) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l8SFa7F1028076 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 28 Sep 2007 08:36:08 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from paul.hoffman@vpnc.org) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <200709281015.l8SAFwfq087916@bartok.nlnetlabs.nl> <20070928071931.GA21696@nic.fr> <3B1D547E-0F40-4A6D-B786-EB765E58A7F2@isc.org> References: <200709281015.l8SAFwfq087916@bartok.nlnetlabs.nl> <20070928071931.GA21696@nic.fr> <200709281015.l8SAFwfq087916@bartok.nlnetlabs.nl> <3B1D547E-0F40-4A6D-B786-EB765E58A7F2@isc.org> Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 08:36:04 -0700 To: dnsop@ietf.org, ietf@ietf.org From: Paul Hoffman Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 25620135586de10c627e3628c432b04a Cc: Subject: [DNSOP] Re: Last Call: draft-ietf-dnsop-reflectors-are-evil (Preventing Use of Recursive Nameservers in Reflector Attacks) to BCP X-BeenThere: dnsop@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF DNSOP WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: dnsop-bounces@ietf.org At 9:19 AM +0200 9/28/07, Stephane Bortzmeyer wrote: >On Thu, Sep 27, 2007 at 06:45:55PM -0700, > Paul Hoffman wrote > a message of 36 lines which said: > > > It ignores one of the main reasons that many organizations purposely >> choose to provide recursive lookup to the public, namely for their >> own roaming users. > >No, it is *not* ignored. See section 4, for instance : > > o Use TSIG [RFC2845] or SIG(0) [RFC2931] signed queries to > authenticate the clients. This is a less error prone method, > which allows server operators to provide service to clients who > change IP address frequently (e.g. roaming clients). This is a suggestion for something that essentially no one can use today (as is admitted after the text after the quote). >VPN are another solution, although not mentioned in the I-D, may be >because it is obvious. It is not "obvious", at least to some of the people I have spoken with. It is also not obvious to VPN vendors; otherwise, they would have easy-to-use settings to make it happen. None of the VPN client that I have seen have such settings. Listing such things in the Security Considerations section of a document is a good practice, regardless of what you think is obvious. At 12:15 PM +0200 9/28/07, Jaap Akkerhuis wrote: > There are two major reasons for an organization to not want roaming > users to trust locally-assigned DNS servers. > >Open recursive servers doesn't help in against man in the middle >attacks. Correct; no one said that they did. Open recursive name servers help against against roaming users being directed to DNS servers whose security policy is different than their organizations'. >If you want to avoid that use VPN's or (for DNS) TSIG. Indeed. >I seem to remember that the ID actually mentions that. I cannot find any mentions of VPNs or IPsec. Given that the document admits that TSIG and SIG(0) are essentially unavailable today on end users systems, and IPsec is much more common, saying something about this in the Security Considerations section might be of value. As my earlier message said, this is not for Section 4, which is only talking about authentication of clients. At 1:20 PM +0200 9/28/07, Joao Damas wrote: >Opening up your resolver so you can server roaming users, without >further protection, is, at best, naive. From the standpoint of the organization whose security policy includes the way their users do DNS resolution, it is better than nothing, and this document's "best practices" pretty much limit them to nothing. For a non-ISP, ingress filtering will not help at all (even though it should still be implemented, and customers should urge their ISPs to implement it). IP-based authentication does not work for mobile users. Interface-based authentication does not work for mobile users. TSIG and SIG(0) does not work for mobile users until it is implemented in their computers, which the draft admits it is not for the vast majority of users. If the document doesn't want to deal with those organizations, it needs to say so in the introduction and again in the Security Considerations section. --Paul Hoffman, Director --VPN Consortium _______________________________________________ DNSOP mailing list DNSOP@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop From dnsop-bounces@ietf.org Fri Sep 28 11:39:14 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbHsy-00044y-QD; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 11:36:12 -0400 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbHsw-00044S-Di; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 11:36:10 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbHsv-0002FX-S4; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 11:36:10 -0400 Received: from [10.20.30.108] (dsl-63-249-108-169.cruzio.com [63.249.108.169]) (authenticated bits=0) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l8SFa7F1028076 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 28 Sep 2007 08:36:08 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from paul.hoffman@vpnc.org) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <200709281015.l8SAFwfq087916@bartok.nlnetlabs.nl> <20070928071931.GA21696@nic.fr> <3B1D547E-0F40-4A6D-B786-EB765E58A7F2@isc.org> References: <200709281015.l8SAFwfq087916@bartok.nlnetlabs.nl> <20070928071931.GA21696@nic.fr> <200709281015.l8SAFwfq087916@bartok.nlnetlabs.nl> <3B1D547E-0F40-4A6D-B786-EB765E58A7F2@isc.org> Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 08:36:04 -0700 To: dnsop@ietf.org, ietf@ietf.org From: Paul Hoffman Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 25620135586de10c627e3628c432b04a Cc: Subject: [DNSOP] Re: Last Call: draft-ietf-dnsop-reflectors-are-evil (Preventing Use of Recursive Nameservers in Reflector Attacks) to BCP X-BeenThere: dnsop@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF DNSOP WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: dnsop-bounces@ietf.org At 9:19 AM +0200 9/28/07, Stephane Bortzmeyer wrote: >On Thu, Sep 27, 2007 at 06:45:55PM -0700, > Paul Hoffman wrote > a message of 36 lines which said: > > > It ignores one of the main reasons that many organizations purposely >> choose to provide recursive lookup to the public, namely for their >> own roaming users. > >No, it is *not* ignored. See section 4, for instance : > > o Use TSIG [RFC2845] or SIG(0) [RFC2931] signed queries to > authenticate the clients. This is a less error prone method, > which allows server operators to provide service to clients who > change IP address frequently (e.g. roaming clients). This is a suggestion for something that essentially no one can use today (as is admitted after the text after the quote). >VPN are another solution, although not mentioned in the I-D, may be >because it is obvious. It is not "obvious", at least to some of the people I have spoken with. It is also not obvious to VPN vendors; otherwise, they would have easy-to-use settings to make it happen. None of the VPN client that I have seen have such settings. Listing such things in the Security Considerations section of a document is a good practice, regardless of what you think is obvious. At 12:15 PM +0200 9/28/07, Jaap Akkerhuis wrote: > There are two major reasons for an organization to not want roaming > users to trust locally-assigned DNS servers. > >Open recursive servers doesn't help in against man in the middle >attacks. Correct; no one said that they did. Open recursive name servers help against against roaming users being directed to DNS servers whose security policy is different than their organizations'. >If you want to avoid that use VPN's or (for DNS) TSIG. Indeed. >I seem to remember that the ID actually mentions that. I cannot find any mentions of VPNs or IPsec. Given that the document admits that TSIG and SIG(0) are essentially unavailable today on end users systems, and IPsec is much more common, saying something about this in the Security Considerations section might be of value. As my earlier message said, this is not for Section 4, which is only talking about authentication of clients. At 1:20 PM +0200 9/28/07, Joao Damas wrote: >Opening up your resolver so you can server roaming users, without >further protection, is, at best, naive. From the standpoint of the organization whose security policy includes the way their users do DNS resolution, it is better than nothing, and this document's "best practices" pretty much limit them to nothing. For a non-ISP, ingress filtering will not help at all (even though it should still be implemented, and customers should urge their ISPs to implement it). IP-based authentication does not work for mobile users. Interface-based authentication does not work for mobile users. TSIG and SIG(0) does not work for mobile users until it is implemented in their computers, which the draft admits it is not for the vast majority of users. If the document doesn't want to deal with those organizations, it needs to say so in the introduction and again in the Security Considerations section. --Paul Hoffman, Director --VPN Consortium _______________________________________________ DNSOP mailing list DNSOP@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop From dnsop-bounces@ietf.org Fri Sep 28 12:10:30 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbIN5-0008Hx-SJ; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 12:07:19 -0400 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbIN3-0008Bv-UD; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 12:07:17 -0400 Received: from newtla.xelerance.com ([193.110.157.143]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbIN3-0004Oj-Jh; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 12:07:17 -0400 Received: from tla.xelerance.com (tla.xelerance.com [193.110.157.130]) by newtla.xelerance.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56C86C023; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 12:07:56 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 12:07:56 -0400 (EDT) From: Paul Wouters To: Jaap Akkerhuis Subject: Re: [DNSOP] Re: Last Call: draft-ietf-dnsop-reflectors-are-evil (Preventing Use of Recursive Nameservers in Reflector Attacks) to BCP In-Reply-To: <200709281015.l8SAFwfq087916@bartok.nlnetlabs.nl> Message-ID: References: <200709281015.l8SAFwfq087916@bartok.nlnetlabs.nl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cf4fa59384e76e63313391b70cd0dd25 Cc: dnsop@ietf.org, ietf@ietf.org X-BeenThere: dnsop@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF DNSOP WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: dnsop-bounces@ietf.org On Fri, 28 Sep 2007, Jaap Akkerhuis wrote: > There are two major reasons for an organization to not want roaming > users to trust locally-assigned DNS servers. > > Open recursive servers doesn't help in against man in the middle > attacks. If you want to avoid that use VPN's or (for DNS) TSIG. That's why you want your own caching resolver on your laptop. But I guess hotspots won't work as well with that. Then again, the whole captive portal by hacking up DNS packets needs to go away when DNSSEC deployment deems that interfering inappropriate. Is there some IETF work going on to standarize captive portal bootstraps? Paul _______________________________________________ DNSOP mailing list DNSOP@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop From dnsop-bounces@ietf.org Fri Sep 28 12:10:30 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbIKc-0002Uh-AU; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 12:04:46 -0400 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbIKa-0002S9-Qu; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 12:04:44 -0400 Received: from monster.hopcount.ca ([199.212.90.4]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbIKa-0004L9-F3; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 12:04:44 -0400 Received: from yxu1a16.hopcount.ca ([199.212.90.16]) by monster.hopcount.ca with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES128-SHA:128) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IbIKX-0006a8-5A; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 16:04:41 +0000 In-Reply-To: References: <200709281015.l8SAFwfq087916@bartok.nlnetlabs.nl> <20070928071931.GA21696@nic.fr> <200709281015.l8SAFwfq087916@bartok.nlnetlabs.nl> <3B1D547E-0F40-4A6D-B786-EB765E58A7F2@isc.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <21112CF5-0ABE-4509-8B1D-1C5AB74FFDCB@ca.afilias.info> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Joe Abley Subject: Re: [DNSOP] Re: Last Call: draft-ietf-dnsop-reflectors-are-evil (Preventing Use of Recursive Nameservers in Reflector Attacks) to BCP Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 12:04:34 -0400 To: Paul Hoffman X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8abaac9e10c826e8252866cbe6766464 Cc: dnsop@ietf.org, ietf@ietf.org X-BeenThere: dnsop@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF DNSOP WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: dnsop-bounces@ietf.org On 28-Sep-2007, at 1136, Paul Hoffman wrote: > It is not "obvious", at least to some of the people I have spoken > with. It is also not obvious to VPN vendors; otherwise, they would > have easy-to-use settings to make it happen. I'm surprised by that comment. I think it's a common use case that organisations who deploy VPNs have split DNS; that is, namespaces available through internal network resolvers that do not appear in the global namespace. In my experience, it is normal for: - VPN client software to use IP addresses rather than names to establish a secure tunnel with the home network - Local resolver settings on the VPN client's machine to be re- written to use internal home network nameservers while the VPN session is active This is certainly how the cisco VPN client supplied to me by my employer (and the subsequent versions I've downloaded directly from cisco) work, for example. I was under the impression that cisco had fairly significant market share in this area. This is not to say that the topic doesn't deserve mention in the draft at hand. However, your logic in the last sentence above seems suspect to me. Joe _______________________________________________ DNSOP mailing list DNSOP@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop From dnsop-bounces@ietf.org Fri Sep 28 12:10:30 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbIN5-0008Hx-SJ; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 12:07:19 -0400 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbIN3-0008Bv-UD; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 12:07:17 -0400 Received: from newtla.xelerance.com ([193.110.157.143]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbIN3-0004Oj-Jh; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 12:07:17 -0400 Received: from tla.xelerance.com (tla.xelerance.com [193.110.157.130]) by newtla.xelerance.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56C86C023; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 12:07:56 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 12:07:56 -0400 (EDT) From: Paul Wouters To: Jaap Akkerhuis Subject: Re: [DNSOP] Re: Last Call: draft-ietf-dnsop-reflectors-are-evil (Preventing Use of Recursive Nameservers in Reflector Attacks) to BCP In-Reply-To: <200709281015.l8SAFwfq087916@bartok.nlnetlabs.nl> Message-ID: References: <200709281015.l8SAFwfq087916@bartok.nlnetlabs.nl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cf4fa59384e76e63313391b70cd0dd25 Cc: dnsop@ietf.org, ietf@ietf.org X-BeenThere: dnsop@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF DNSOP WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: dnsop-bounces@ietf.org On Fri, 28 Sep 2007, Jaap Akkerhuis wrote: > There are two major reasons for an organization to not want roaming > users to trust locally-assigned DNS servers. > > Open recursive servers doesn't help in against man in the middle > attacks. If you want to avoid that use VPN's or (for DNS) TSIG. That's why you want your own caching resolver on your laptop. But I guess hotspots won't work as well with that. Then again, the whole captive portal by hacking up DNS packets needs to go away when DNSSEC deployment deems that interfering inappropriate. Is there some IETF work going on to standarize captive portal bootstraps? Paul _______________________________________________ DNSOP mailing list DNSOP@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop From dnsop-bounces@ietf.org Fri Sep 28 12:10:30 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbIKc-0002Uh-AU; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 12:04:46 -0400 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbIKa-0002S9-Qu; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 12:04:44 -0400 Received: from monster.hopcount.ca ([199.212.90.4]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbIKa-0004L9-F3; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 12:04:44 -0400 Received: from yxu1a16.hopcount.ca ([199.212.90.16]) by monster.hopcount.ca with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES128-SHA:128) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IbIKX-0006a8-5A; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 16:04:41 +0000 In-Reply-To: References: <200709281015.l8SAFwfq087916@bartok.nlnetlabs.nl> <20070928071931.GA21696@nic.fr> <200709281015.l8SAFwfq087916@bartok.nlnetlabs.nl> <3B1D547E-0F40-4A6D-B786-EB765E58A7F2@isc.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <21112CF5-0ABE-4509-8B1D-1C5AB74FFDCB@ca.afilias.info> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Joe Abley Subject: Re: [DNSOP] Re: Last Call: draft-ietf-dnsop-reflectors-are-evil (Preventing Use of Recursive Nameservers in Reflector Attacks) to BCP Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 12:04:34 -0400 To: Paul Hoffman X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8abaac9e10c826e8252866cbe6766464 Cc: dnsop@ietf.org, ietf@ietf.org X-BeenThere: dnsop@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF DNSOP WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: dnsop-bounces@ietf.org On 28-Sep-2007, at 1136, Paul Hoffman wrote: > It is not "obvious", at least to some of the people I have spoken > with. It is also not obvious to VPN vendors; otherwise, they would > have easy-to-use settings to make it happen. I'm surprised by that comment. I think it's a common use case that organisations who deploy VPNs have split DNS; that is, namespaces available through internal network resolvers that do not appear in the global namespace. In my experience, it is normal for: - VPN client software to use IP addresses rather than names to establish a secure tunnel with the home network - Local resolver settings on the VPN client's machine to be re- written to use internal home network nameservers while the VPN session is active This is certainly how the cisco VPN client supplied to me by my employer (and the subsequent versions I've downloaded directly from cisco) work, for example. I was under the impression that cisco had fairly significant market share in this area. This is not to say that the topic doesn't deserve mention in the draft at hand. However, your logic in the last sentence above seems suspect to me. Joe _______________________________________________ DNSOP mailing list DNSOP@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop From dnsop-bounces@ietf.org Fri Sep 28 12:10:30 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbIKc-0002Uh-AU; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 12:04:46 -0400 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbIKa-0002S9-Qu; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 12:04:44 -0400 Received: from monster.hopcount.ca ([199.212.90.4]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbIKa-0004L9-F3; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 12:04:44 -0400 Received: from yxu1a16.hopcount.ca ([199.212.90.16]) by monster.hopcount.ca with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES128-SHA:128) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IbIKX-0006a8-5A; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 16:04:41 +0000 In-Reply-To: References: <200709281015.l8SAFwfq087916@bartok.nlnetlabs.nl> <20070928071931.GA21696@nic.fr> <200709281015.l8SAFwfq087916@bartok.nlnetlabs.nl> <3B1D547E-0F40-4A6D-B786-EB765E58A7F2@isc.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <21112CF5-0ABE-4509-8B1D-1C5AB74FFDCB@ca.afilias.info> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Joe Abley Subject: Re: [DNSOP] Re: Last Call: draft-ietf-dnsop-reflectors-are-evil (Preventing Use of Recursive Nameservers in Reflector Attacks) to BCP Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 12:04:34 -0400 To: Paul Hoffman X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8abaac9e10c826e8252866cbe6766464 Cc: dnsop@ietf.org, ietf@ietf.org X-BeenThere: dnsop@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF DNSOP WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: dnsop-bounces@ietf.org On 28-Sep-2007, at 1136, Paul Hoffman wrote: > It is not "obvious", at least to some of the people I have spoken > with. It is also not obvious to VPN vendors; otherwise, they would > have easy-to-use settings to make it happen. I'm surprised by that comment. I think it's a common use case that organisations who deploy VPNs have split DNS; that is, namespaces available through internal network resolvers that do not appear in the global namespace. In my experience, it is normal for: - VPN client software to use IP addresses rather than names to establish a secure tunnel with the home network - Local resolver settings on the VPN client's machine to be re- written to use internal home network nameservers while the VPN session is active This is certainly how the cisco VPN client supplied to me by my employer (and the subsequent versions I've downloaded directly from cisco) work, for example. I was under the impression that cisco had fairly significant market share in this area. This is not to say that the topic doesn't deserve mention in the draft at hand. However, your logic in the last sentence above seems suspect to me. Joe _______________________________________________ DNSOP mailing list DNSOP@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop From dnsop-bounces@ietf.org Fri Sep 28 12:10:30 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbIN5-0008Hx-SJ; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 12:07:19 -0400 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbIN3-0008Bv-UD; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 12:07:17 -0400 Received: from newtla.xelerance.com ([193.110.157.143]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbIN3-0004Oj-Jh; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 12:07:17 -0400 Received: from tla.xelerance.com (tla.xelerance.com [193.110.157.130]) by newtla.xelerance.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56C86C023; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 12:07:56 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 12:07:56 -0400 (EDT) From: Paul Wouters To: Jaap Akkerhuis Subject: Re: [DNSOP] Re: Last Call: draft-ietf-dnsop-reflectors-are-evil (Preventing Use of Recursive Nameservers in Reflector Attacks) to BCP In-Reply-To: <200709281015.l8SAFwfq087916@bartok.nlnetlabs.nl> Message-ID: References: <200709281015.l8SAFwfq087916@bartok.nlnetlabs.nl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: cf4fa59384e76e63313391b70cd0dd25 Cc: dnsop@ietf.org, ietf@ietf.org X-BeenThere: dnsop@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF DNSOP WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: dnsop-bounces@ietf.org On Fri, 28 Sep 2007, Jaap Akkerhuis wrote: > There are two major reasons for an organization to not want roaming > users to trust locally-assigned DNS servers. > > Open recursive servers doesn't help in against man in the middle > attacks. If you want to avoid that use VPN's or (for DNS) TSIG. That's why you want your own caching resolver on your laptop. But I guess hotspots won't work as well with that. Then again, the whole captive portal by hacking up DNS packets needs to go away when DNSSEC deployment deems that interfering inappropriate. Is there some IETF work going on to standarize captive portal bootstraps? Paul _______________________________________________ DNSOP mailing list DNSOP@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop From dnsop-bounces@ietf.org Fri Sep 28 12:19:52 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbIVo-0007oA-Ll; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 12:16:20 -0400 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbIVm-0007jK-3V; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 12:16:18 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbIVl-0004Zf-Ld; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 12:16:18 -0400 Received: from [10.20.30.108] (dsl-63-249-108-169.cruzio.com [63.249.108.169]) (authenticated bits=0) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l8SGGEcF032634 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 28 Sep 2007 09:16:15 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from paul.hoffman@vpnc.org) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <21112CF5-0ABE-4509-8B1D-1C5AB74FFDCB@ca.afilias.info> References: <200709281015.l8SAFwfq087916@bartok.nlnetlabs.nl> <20070928071931.GA21696@nic.fr> <200709281015.l8SAFwfq087916@bartok.nlnetlabs.nl> <3B1D547E-0F40-4A6D-B786-EB765E58A7F2@isc.org> <21112CF5-0ABE-4509-8B1D-1C5AB74FFDCB@ca.afilias.info> Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 09:16:12 -0700 To: Joe Abley From: Paul Hoffman Subject: Re: [DNSOP] Re: Last Call: draft-ietf-dnsop-reflectors-are-evil (Preventing Use of Recursive Nameservers in Reflector Attacks) to BCP Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e5ba305d0e64821bf3d8bc5d3bb07228 Cc: dnsop@ietf.org, ietf@ietf.org X-BeenThere: dnsop@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF DNSOP WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: dnsop-bounces@ietf.org At 12:04 PM -0400 9/28/07, Joe Abley wrote: >On 28-Sep-2007, at 1136, Paul Hoffman wrote: > >>It is not "obvious", at least to some of the people I have spoken >>with. It is also not obvious to VPN vendors; otherwise, they would >>have easy-to-use settings to make it happen. > >I'm surprised by that comment. > >I think it's a common use case that organisations who deploy VPNs >have split DNS; that is, namespaces available through internal >network resolvers that do not appear in the global namespace. In my >experience, it is normal for: > > - VPN client software to use IP addresses rather than names to >establish a secure tunnel with the home network > - Local resolver settings on the VPN client's machine to be >re-written to use internal home network nameservers while the VPN >session is active That's completely true for remote users who are already using a VPN. In that case, there is no reason for the organization to have a recursive resolver facing outwards. What was being discussed was setting up a VPN just for getting DNS resolution, not for access to other internal resources. IPsec can be used to create a tunnel to just a single resource if the organization wants the external user to access that resource only. --Paul Hoffman, Director --VPN Consortium _______________________________________________ DNSOP mailing list DNSOP@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop From dnsop-bounces@ietf.org Fri Sep 28 12:19:52 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbIVT-0007M4-Qk; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 12:15:59 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbIVM-0006zG-5M; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 12:15:52 -0400 Received: from newtla.xelerance.com ([193.110.157.143]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbIVK-0005mi-SW; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 12:15:52 -0400 Received: from tla.xelerance.com (tla.xelerance.com [193.110.157.130]) by newtla.xelerance.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A12E9C024; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 12:16:20 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 12:16:20 -0400 (EDT) From: Paul Wouters To: Joe Abley Subject: Re: [DNSOP] Re: Last Call: draft-ietf-dnsop-reflectors-are-evil (Preventing Use of Recursive Nameservers in Reflector Attacks) to BCP In-Reply-To: <21112CF5-0ABE-4509-8B1D-1C5AB74FFDCB@ca.afilias.info> Message-ID: References: <200709281015.l8SAFwfq087916@bartok.nlnetlabs.nl> <20070928071931.GA21696@nic.fr> <200709281015.l8SAFwfq087916@bartok.nlnetlabs.nl> <3B1D547E-0F40-4A6D-B786-EB765E58A7F2@isc.org> <21112CF5-0ABE-4509-8B1D-1C5AB74FFDCB@ca.afilias.info> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7d33c50f3756db14428398e2bdedd581 Cc: dnsop@ietf.org, Paul Hoffman , ietf@ietf.org X-BeenThere: dnsop@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF DNSOP WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: dnsop-bounces@ietf.org On Fri, 28 Sep 2007, Joe Abley wrote: > I'm surprised by that comment. > > I think it's a common use case that organisations who deploy VPNs have split > DNS; that is, namespaces available through internal network resolvers that do > not appear in the global namespace. In my experience, it is normal for: > > - VPN client software to use IP addresses rather than names to establish a > secure tunnel with the home network If you are a worldwide organisation, you want to connect to the nearest VPN point, and not your "home vpn point". This is done by customising DNS answers (eg bind views or akamai like setups). The last thing I want is for my Dutch branch, to connect me to the company vpn in The Netherlands, when I'm in the US, crossing the atlantic twice. You only start to use the internal company's DNS server, after you have connected to the VPN - if only to resolve internal network only machines. Paul _______________________________________________ DNSOP mailing list DNSOP@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop From dnsop-bounces@ietf.org Fri Sep 28 12:19:52 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbIVo-0007oA-Ll; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 12:16:20 -0400 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbIVm-0007jK-3V; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 12:16:18 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbIVl-0004Zf-Ld; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 12:16:18 -0400 Received: from [10.20.30.108] (dsl-63-249-108-169.cruzio.com [63.249.108.169]) (authenticated bits=0) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l8SGGEcF032634 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 28 Sep 2007 09:16:15 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from paul.hoffman@vpnc.org) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <21112CF5-0ABE-4509-8B1D-1C5AB74FFDCB@ca.afilias.info> References: <200709281015.l8SAFwfq087916@bartok.nlnetlabs.nl> <20070928071931.GA21696@nic.fr> <200709281015.l8SAFwfq087916@bartok.nlnetlabs.nl> <3B1D547E-0F40-4A6D-B786-EB765E58A7F2@isc.org> <21112CF5-0ABE-4509-8B1D-1C5AB74FFDCB@ca.afilias.info> Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 09:16:12 -0700 To: Joe Abley From: Paul Hoffman Subject: Re: [DNSOP] Re: Last Call: draft-ietf-dnsop-reflectors-are-evil (Preventing Use of Recursive Nameservers in Reflector Attacks) to BCP Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e5ba305d0e64821bf3d8bc5d3bb07228 Cc: dnsop@ietf.org, ietf@ietf.org X-BeenThere: dnsop@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF DNSOP WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: dnsop-bounces@ietf.org At 12:04 PM -0400 9/28/07, Joe Abley wrote: >On 28-Sep-2007, at 1136, Paul Hoffman wrote: > >>It is not "obvious", at least to some of the people I have spoken >>with. It is also not obvious to VPN vendors; otherwise, they would >>have easy-to-use settings to make it happen. > >I'm surprised by that comment. > >I think it's a common use case that organisations who deploy VPNs >have split DNS; that is, namespaces available through internal >network resolvers that do not appear in the global namespace. In my >experience, it is normal for: > > - VPN client software to use IP addresses rather than names to >establish a secure tunnel with the home network > - Local resolver settings on the VPN client's machine to be >re-written to use internal home network nameservers while the VPN >session is active That's completely true for remote users who are already using a VPN. In that case, there is no reason for the organization to have a recursive resolver facing outwards. What was being discussed was setting up a VPN just for getting DNS resolution, not for access to other internal resources. IPsec can be used to create a tunnel to just a single resource if the organization wants the external user to access that resource only. --Paul Hoffman, Director --VPN Consortium _______________________________________________ DNSOP mailing list DNSOP@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop From dnsop-bounces@ietf.org Fri Sep 28 12:19:52 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbIVT-0007M4-Qk; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 12:15:59 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.orFrom dnsop-bounces@ietf.org Fri Sep 28 12:19:52 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbIVo-0007oA-Ll; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 12:16:20 -0400 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbIVm-0007jK-3V; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 12:16:18 -0400 Received: from balder-227.proper.com ([192.245.12.227]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbIVl-0004Zf-Ld; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 12:16:18 -0400 Received: from [10.20.30.108] (dsl-63-249-108-169.cruzio.com [63.249.108.169]) (authenticated bits=0) by balder-227.proper.com (8.13.5/8.13.5) with ESMTP id l8SGGEcF032634 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 28 Sep 2007 09:16:15 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from paul.hoffman@vpnc.org) Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <21112CF5-0ABE-4509-8B1D-1C5AB74FFDCB@ca.afilias.info> References: <200709281015.l8SAFwfq087916@bartok.nlnetlabs.nl> <20070928071931.GA21696@nic.fr> <200709281015.l8SAFwfq087916@bartok.nlnetlabs.nl> <3B1D547E-0F40-4A6D-B786-EB765E58A7F2@isc.org> <21112CF5-0ABE-4509-8B1D-1C5AB74FFDCB@ca.afilias.info> Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 09:16:12 -0700 To: Joe Abley From: Paul Hoffman Subject: Re: [DNSOP] Re: Last Call: draft-ietf-dnsop-reflectors-are-evil (Preventing Use of Recursive Nameservers in Reflector Attacks) to BCP Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e5ba305d0e64821bf3d8bc5d3bb07228 Cc: dnsop@ietf.org, ietf@ietf.org X-BeenThere: dnsop@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF DNSOP WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: dnsop-bounces@ietf.org At 12:04 PM -0400 9/28/07, Joe Abley wrote: >On 28-Sep-2007, at 1136, Paul Hoffman wrote: > >>It is not "obvious", at least to some of the people I have spoken >>with. It is also not obvious to VPN vendors; otherwise, they would >>have easy-to-use settings to make it happen. > >I'm surprised by that comment. > >I think it's a common use case that organisations who deploy VPNs >have split DNS; that is, namespaces available through internal >network resolvers that do not appear in the global namespace. In my >experience, it is normal for: > > - VPN client software to use IP addresses rather than names to >establish a secure tunnel with the home network > - Local resolver settings on the VPN client's machine to be >re-written to use internal home network nameservers while the VPN >session is active That's completely true for remote users who are already using a VPN. In that case, there is no reason for the organization to have a recursive resolver facing outwards. What was being discussed was setting up a VPN just for getting DNS resolution, not for access to other internal resources. IPsec can be used to create a tunnel to just a single resource if the organization wants the external user to access that resource only. --Paul Hoffman, Director --VPN Consortium _______________________________________________ DNSOP mailing list DNSOP@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop From dnsop-bounces@ietf.org Fri Sep 28 12:19:52 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbIVT-0007M4-Qk; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 12:15:59 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbIVM-0006zG-5M; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 12:15:52 -0400 Received: from newtla.xelerance.com ([193.110.157.143]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbIVK-0005mi-SW; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 12:15:52 -0400 Received: from tla.xelerance.com (tla.xelerance.com [193.110.157.130]) by newtla.xelerance.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A12E9C024; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 12:16:20 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 12:16:20 -0400 (EDT) From: Paul Wouters To: Joe Abley Subject: Re: [DNSOP] Re: Last Call: draft-ietf-dnsop-reflectors-are-evil (Preventing Use of Recursive Nameservers in Reflector Attacks) to BCP In-Reply-To: <21112CF5-0ABE-4509-8B1D-1C5AB74FFDCB@ca.afilias.info> Message-ID: References: <200709281015.l8SAFwfq087916@bartok.nlnetlabs.nl> <20070928071931.GA21696@nic.fr> <200709281015.l8SAFwfq087916@bartok.nlnetlabs.nl> <3B1D547E-0F40-4A6D-B786-EB765E58A7F2@isc.org> <21112CF5-0ABE-4509-8B1D-1C5AB74FFDCB@ca.afilias.info> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7d33c50f3756db14428398e2bdedd581 Cc: dnsop@ietf.org, Paul Hoffman , ietf@ietf.org X-BeenThere: dnsop@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF DNSOP WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: dnsop-bounces@ietf.org On Fri, 28 Sep 2007, Joe Abley wrote: > I'm surprised by that comment. > > I think it's a common use case that organisations who deploy VPNs have split > DNS; that is, namespaces available through internal network resolvers that do > not appear in the global namespace. In my experience, it is normal for: > > - VPN client software to use IP addresses rather than names to establish a > secure tunnel with the home network If you are a worldwide organisation, you want to connect to the nearest VPN point, and not your "home vpn point". This is done by customising DNS answers (eg bind views or akamai like setups). The last thing I want is for my Dutch branch, to connect me to the company vpn in The Netherlands, when I'm in the US, crossing the atlantic twice. You only start to use the internal company's DNS server, after you have connected to the VPN - if only to resolve internal network only machines. Paul _______________________________________________ DNSOP mailing list DNSOP@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop g) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbIVM-0006zG-5M; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 12:15:52 -0400 Received: from newtla.xelerance.com ([193.110.157.143]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbIVK-0005mi-SW; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 12:15:52 -0400 Received: from tla.xelerance.com (tla.xelerance.com [193.110.157.130]) by newtla.xelerance.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A12E9C024; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 12:16:20 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 12:16:20 -0400 (EDT) From: Paul Wouters To: Joe Abley Subject: Re: [DNSOP] Re: Last Call: draft-ietf-dnsop-reflectors-are-evil (Preventing Use of Recursive Nameservers in Reflector Attacks) to BCP In-Reply-To: <21112CF5-0ABE-4509-8B1D-1C5AB74FFDCB@ca.afilias.info> Message-ID: References: <200709281015.l8SAFwfq087916@bartok.nlnetlabs.nl> <20070928071931.GA21696@nic.fr> <200709281015.l8SAFwfq087916@bartok.nlnetlabs.nl> <3B1D547E-0F40-4A6D-B786-EB765E58A7F2@isc.org> <21112CF5-0ABE-4509-8B1D-1C5AB74FFDCB@ca.afilias.info> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7d33c50f3756db14428398e2bdedd581 Cc: dnsop@ietf.org, Paul Hoffman , ietf@ietf.org X-BeenThere: dnsop@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF DNSOP WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: dnsop-bounces@ietf.org On Fri, 28 Sep 2007, Joe Abley wrote: > I'm surprised by that comment. > > I think it's a common use case that organisations who deploy VPNs have split > DNS; that is, namespaces available through internal network resolvers that do > not appear in the global namespace. In my experience, it is normal for: > > - VPN client software to use IP addresses rather than names to establish a > secure tunnel with the home network If you are a worldwide organisation, you want to connect to the nearest VPN point, and not your "home vpn point". This is done by customising DNS answers (eg bind views or akamai like setups). The last thing I want is for my Dutch branch, to connect me to the company vpn in The Netherlands, when I'm in the US, crossing the atlantic twice. You only start to use the internal company's DNS server, after you have connected to the VPN - if only to resolve internal network only machines. 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If you are interested in this proposal please contact your personal manager to: AlishaSullivanDN@gmail.com If you received this message in error please send a blank email to: MargeryHubbardFN@gmail.com From dnsop-bounces@ietf.org Fri Sep 28 15:22:36 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbLKX-0003eu-Dy; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 15:16:53 -0400 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbLKU-0003bq-Kq; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 15:16:50 -0400 Received: from cirrus.av8.net ([130.105.36.66]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbLKH-0001Bq-6u; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 15:16:37 -0400 Received: from [130.105.12.10] ([130.105.12.10]) (authenticated bits=0) by cirrus.av8.net (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l8SJGUTd029648 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO); Fri, 28 Sep 2007 15:16:30 -0400 Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 15:16:29 -0400 (EDT) From: Dean Anderson X-X-Sender: dean@citation2.av8.net To: Stephane Bortzmeyer Subject: Re: [DNSOP] Re: Last Call: draft-ietf-dnsop-reflectors-are-evil (Preventing Use of Recursive Nameservers in Reflector Attacks) to BCP In-Reply-To: <20070928071931.GA21696@nic.fr> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 52e1467c2184c31006318542db5614d5 Cc: dnsop@ietf.org, Paul Hoffman , ietf@ietf.org X-BeenThere: dnsop@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF DNSOP WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: dnsop-bounces@ietf.org On Fri, 28 Sep 2007, Stephane Bortzmeyer wrote: > On Thu, Sep 27, 2007 at 06:45:55PM -0700, > Paul Hoffman wrote > a message of 36 lines which said: > > > It ignores one of the main reasons that many organizations purposely > > choose to provide recursive lookup to the public, namely for their > > own roaming users. > > No, it is *not* ignored. See section 4, for instance : > > o Use TSIG [RFC2845] or SIG(0) [RFC2931] signed queries to > authenticate the clients. This is a less error prone method, > which allows server operators to provide service to clients who > change IP address frequently (e.g. roaming clients). Not widely supported in clients. Therefore, not a solution. > VPN are another solution, although not mentioned in the I-D, may be > because it is obvious. Maybe its not mentioned because its not a practical solution. But whatever the reason it isn't mentioned, a 25 million user VPN is not going to happen with 10/8. A comcast person recently complained on PPML that there wasn't enough RFC1918 space for their internal network. --Dean -- Av8 Internet Prepared to pay a premium for better service? www.av8.net faster, more reliable, better service 617 344 9000 _______________________________________________ DNSOP mailing list DNSOP@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop From dnsop-bounces@ietf.org Fri Sep 28 15:22:36 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbLKX-0003eu-Dy; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 15:16:53 -0400 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbLKU-0003bq-Kq; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 15:16:50 -0400 Received: from cirrus.av8.net ([130.105.36.66]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbLKH-0001Bq-6u; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 15:16:37 -0400 Received: from [130.105.12.10] ([130.105.12.10]) (authenticated bits=0) by cirrus.av8.net (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l8SJGUTd029648 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO); Fri, 28 Sep 2007 15:16:30 -0400 Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 15:16:29 -0400 (EDT) From: Dean Anderson X-X-Sender: dean@citation2.av8.net To: Stephane Bortzmeyer Subject: Re: [DNSOP] Re: Last Call: draft-ietf-dnsop-reflectors-are-evil (Preventing Use of Recursive Nameservers in Reflector Attacks) to BCP In-Reply-To: <20070928071931.GA21696@nic.fr> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 52e1467c2184c31006318542db5614d5 Cc: dnsop@ietf.org, Paul Hoffman , ietf@ietf.org X-BeenThere: dnsop@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF DNSOP WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: dnsop-bounces@ietf.org On Fri, 28 Sep 2007, Stephane Bortzmeyer wrote: > On Thu, Sep 27, 2007 at 06:45:55PM -0700, > Paul Hoffman wrote > a message of 36 lines which said: > > > It ignores one of the main reasons that many organizations purposely > > choose to provide recursive lookup to the public, namely for their > > own roaming users. > > No, it is *not* ignored. See section 4, for instance : > > o Use TSIG [RFC2845] or SIG(0) [RFC2931] signed queries to > authenticate the clients. This is a less error prone method, > which allows server operators to provide service to clients who > change IP address frequently (e.g. roaming clients). Not widely supported in clients. Therefore, not a solution. > VPN are another solution, although not mentioned in the I-D, may be > because it is obvious. Maybe its not mentioned because its not a practical solution. But whatever the reason it isn't mentioned, a 25 million user VPN is not going to happen with 10/8. A comcast person recently complained on PPML that there wasn't enough RFC1918 space for their internal network. --Dean -- Av8 Internet Prepared to pay a premium for better service? www.av8.net faster, more reliable, better service 617 344 9000 _______________________________________________ DNSOP mailing list DNSOP@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop From lamborghini-hire.com@floridalemonlawyers.com Fri Sep 28 15:34:15 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbLbL-0005fz-DQ for dnsop-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 15:34:15 -0400 Received: from [211.206.227.223] (helo=hocavdv) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbLbE-00023b-EW for dnsop-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 15:34:09 -0400 Message-ID: <000201c80207$1fb45e00$0100007f@hymju> From: "Marc Alexander" To: Subject: Why be an average guy any longer Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 04:34:04 +0900 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0056_01C80207.1FB45E00" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-Spam-Score: 3.5 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: a3f7094ccc62748c06b21fcf44c073ee This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0056_01C80207.1FB45E00 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0012_01C80207.1FB45E00" ------=_NextPart_001_0012_01C80207.1FB45E00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable See attachment. http://www.matsunu.com/ ----- The following morning Bradford Bradford was growing weary of They were quickly settled in t By weeks end, he had to reeval ------=_NextPart_001_0012_01C80207.1FB45E00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi

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4.43) id 1IbN5I-0000qq-FM; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 17:09:16 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbN5G-0000pP-Vp; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 17:09:14 -0400 Received: from monster.hopcount.ca ([199.212.90.4]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbN5A-0005iC-P8; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 17:09:14 -0400 Received: from yxu1a16.hopcount.ca ([199.212.90.16]) by monster.hopcount.ca with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES128-SHA:128) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IbN4r-0009XK-Gk; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 21:08:49 +0000 In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <9E75FF64-3505-4728-9EF1-4AC7973B156B@ca.afilias.info> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Joe Abley Subject: Re: [DNSOP] Re: Last Call: draft-ietf-dnsop-reflectors-are-evil (Preventing Use of Recursive Nameservers in Reflector Attacks) to BCP Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 17:08:42 -0400 To: Dean Anderson X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 39bd8f8cbb76cae18b7e23f7cf6b2b9f Cc: dnsop@ietf.org, Paul Hoffman , ietf@ietf.org X-BeenThere: dnsop@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF DNSOP WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: dnsop-bounces@ietf.org On 28-Sep-2007, at 1516, Dean Anderson wrote: > Not widely supported in clients. Therefore, not a solution. In fact, it's quite feasible in operating systems which can run a local instance of (say) BIND9. It would be fair to say that installing and configuring BIND9 on an average laptop is far beyond the abilities of the average laptop owner, but that's presumably just a matter of packaging. >> VPN are another solution, although not mentioned in the I-D, may be >> because it is obvious. > > Maybe its not mentioned because its not a practical solution. But > whatever the reason it isn't mentioned, a 25 million user VPN is not > going to happen with 10/8. Well, that depends on what you mean by "VPN". If you mean "a hub and spoke topology of tunnels, all concentrated centrally" then yeah, that sounds like a bit of a stretch. If you mean "use of AH in queries sent towards a resolver which is configured somehow to discard packets that are not authentic" then I suspect there are ways to make that scale, even for quite large client populations. (I might choose to incorporate anycast into such a design. You, presumably, would not. :-) > A comcast person recently complained on PPML > that there wasn't enough RFC1918 space for their internal network. I have heard such reports from Comcast in various forums. I have no reason to doubt them. I do not think that is especially pertinent to the question at hand, however. Joe _______________________________________________ DNSOP mailing list DNSOP@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop From dnsop-bounces@ietf.org Fri Sep 28 17:13:01 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbN5I-0000qq-FM; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 17:09:16 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbN5G-0000pP-Vp; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 17:09:14 -0400 Received: from monster.hopcount.ca ([199.212.90.4]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbN5A-0005iC-P8; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 17:09:14 -0400 Received: from yxu1a16.hopcount.ca ([199.212.90.16]) by monster.hopcount.ca with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES128-SHA:128) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IbN4r-0009XK-Gk; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 21:08:49 +0000 In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <9E75FF64-3505-4728-9EF1-4AC7973B156B@ca.afilias.info> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Joe Abley Subject: Re: [DNSOP] Re: Last Call: draft-ietf-dnsop-reflectors-are-evil (Preventing Use of Recursive Nameservers in Reflector Attacks) to BCP Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 17:08:42 -0400 To: Dean Anderson X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 39bd8f8cbb76cae18b7e23f7cf6b2b9f Cc: dnsop@ietf.org, Paul Hoffman , ietf@ietf.org X-BeenThere: dnsop@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF DNSOP WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: dnsop-bounces@ietf.org On 28-Sep-2007, at 1516, Dean Anderson wrote: > Not widely supported in clients. Therefore, not a solution. In fact, it's quite feasible in operating systems which can run a local instance of (say) BIND9. It would be fair to say that installing and configuring BIND9 on an average laptop is far beyond the abilities of the average laptop owner, but that's presumably just a matter of packaging. >> VPN are another solution, although not mentioned in the I-D, may be >> because it is obvious. > > Maybe its not mentioned because its not a practical solution. But > whatever the reason it isn't mentioned, a 25 million user VPN is not > going to happen with 10/8. Well, that depends on what you mean by "VPN". If you mean "a hub and spoke topology of tunnels, all concentrated centrally" then yeah, that sounds like a bit of a stretch. If you mean "use of AH in queries sent towards a resolver which is configured somehow to discard packets that are not authentic" then I suspect there are ways to make that scale, even for quite large client populations. (I might choose to incorporate anycast into such a design. You, presumably, would not. :-) > A comcast person recently complained on PPML > that there wasn't enough RFC1918 space for their internal network. I have heard such reports from Comcast in various forums. I have no reason to doubt them. I do not think that is especially pertinent to the question at hand, however. Joe _______________________________________________ DNSOP mailing list DNSOP@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop From dnsop-bounces@ietf.org Fri Sep 28 17:33:07 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbNOT-0003TG-JO; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 17:29:05 -0400 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbNOS-0003T8-V2; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 17:29:04 -0400 Received: from newtla.xelerance.com ([193.110.157.143]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbNOS-0008IJ-Kx; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 17:29:04 -0400 Received: from tla.xelerance.com (tla.xelerance.com [193.110.157.130]) by newtla.xelerance.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0589C029; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 17:29:43 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 17:29:43 -0400 (EDT) From: Paul Wouters To: Dean Anderson Subject: Re: [DNSOP] Re: Last Call: draft-ietf-dnsop-reflectors-are-evil (Preventing Use of Recursive Nameservers in Reflector Attacks) to BCP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7bac9cb154eb5790ae3b2913587a40de Cc: dnsop@ietf.org, Paul Hoffman , ietf@ietf.org X-BeenThere: dnsop@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF DNSOP WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: dnsop-bounces@ietf.org On Fri, 28 Sep 2007, Dean Anderson wrote: > Maybe its not mentioned because its not a practical solution. But > whatever the reason it isn't mentioned, a 25 million user VPN is not > going to happen with 10/8. A comcast person recently complained on PPML > that there wasn't enough RFC1918 space for their internal network. Time for them to migrate to IPv6? :) Paul _______________________________________________ DNSOP mailing list DNSOP@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop From dnsop-bounces@ietf.org Fri Sep 28 17:33:07 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbNOT-0003TG-JO; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 17:29:05 -0400 Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbNOS-0003T8-V2; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 17:29:04 -0400 Received: from newtla.xelerance.com ([193.110.157.143]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbNOS-0008IJ-Kx; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 17:29:04 -0400 Received: from tla.xelerance.com (tla.xelerance.com [193.110.157.130]) by newtla.xelerance.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0589C029; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 17:29:43 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 17:29:43 -0400 (EDT) From: Paul Wouters To: Dean Anderson Subject: Re: [DNSOP] Re: Last Call: draft-ietf-dnsop-reflectors-are-evil (Preventing Use of Recursive Nameservers in Reflector Attacks) to BCP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7bac9cb154eb5790ae3b2913587a40de Cc: dnsop@ietf.org, Paul Hoffman , ietf@ietf.org X-BeenThere: dnsop@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF DNSOP WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: dnsop-bounces@ietf.org On Fri, 28 Sep 2007, Dean Anderson wrote: > Maybe its not mentioned because its not a practical solution. But > whatever the reason it isn't mentioned, a 25 million user VPN is not > going to happen with 10/8. A comcast person recently complained on PPML > that there wasn't enough RFC1918 space for their internal network. Time for them to migrate to IPv6? :) Paul _______________________________________________ DNSOP mailing list DNSOP@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop From antony@nvidia.com Fri Sep 28 19:32:52 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbPKG-0004jV-Re for dnsop-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 19:32:52 -0400 Received: from p54b0f57e.dip.t-dialin.net ([84.176.245.126]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbPKG-0002oy-A1 for dnsop-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 19:32:52 -0400 Received: from [84.176.245.126] by ns.nvidia.com; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 23:32:37 +0000 Message-ID: <000901c80227$05dd1b83$be433594@obhcv> From: "daven chuong" To: Subject: Cheap medications specially for you. Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 21:45:15 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0006_01C80227.05D8657D" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.3790.2663 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.3790.2757 X-Spam-Score: 4.4 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 8b30eb7682a596edff707698f4a80f7d This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C80227.05D8657D Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello. We want to offer you enormous range of medical goods! Today you have a chance to buy cheap! \/|@gR@ - $1.79 C|@L|$ $0ft T@b$ $3.93 Pen|$ Gr0wth P|ll$ - $90.24.=20 http://racefelt.cn/ ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C80227.05D8657D Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello.
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    ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C80227.05D8657D-- From dnsop-bounces@ietf.org Fri Sep 28 21:03:46 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbQd4-0004PY-Vj; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 20:56:22 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbQd2-0004PL-Er; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 20:56:20 -0400 Received: from mx.isc.org ([2001:4f8:0:2::1c]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbQd1-00027H-3y; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 20:56:20 -0400 Received: from farside.isc.org (farside.isc.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:3:bb::5]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "farside.isc.org", Issuer "ISC CA" (verified OK)) by mx.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21F7B11402B; Sat, 29 Sep 2007 00:56:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from Mark_Andrews@isc.org) Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (localhost.isc.org [IPv6:::1]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "drugs.dv.isc.org", Issuer "ISC CA" (verified OK)) by farside.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A73D9E6085; Sat, 29 Sep 2007 00:56:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marka@isc.org) Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by drugs.dv.isc.org (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l8T0spoI016523; Sat, 29 Sep 2007 10:54:52 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from marka@drugs.dv.isc.org) Message-Id: <200709290054.l8T0spoI016523@drugs.dv.isc.org> To: John C Klensin From: Mark Andrews Subject: Re: [DNSOP] Re: getaddrinfo() and searching In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 28 Sep 2007 11:06:17 -0400." <3B7852836BF61953FE9B95BA@p3.JCK.COM> Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 10:54:51 +1000 X-Spam-Score: -1.4 (-) X-Scan-Signature: e8c5db863102a3ada84e0cd52a81a79e Cc: dnsop@ietf.org, ipv6@ietf.org, IETF-Discussion Discussion X-BeenThere: dnsop@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF DNSOP WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: dnsop-bounces@ietf.org > > > --On Friday, 28 September, 2007 09:48 +1000 Mark Andrews > wrote: > > >... > >> It's not. Even without IPv6, having search domains means you > >> can get unexpected results. If that's not acceptable, don't > >> complain, but put a period behind your FQDNs. > > > > Please state were in RFC 952 a final period is legal in > > a hostname. > > > > Remember applications take HOSTNAMES not DOMAIN NAMES. > > There are HOSTNAMES that you cannot store in the DNS. > > There are DOMAIN NAMES that are not legal HOSTNAMES. > > Mark, your recollection and understanding of history and > vocabulary may be different from mine (and probably is), but I > think you are getting confused by some informal terminology and > risking confusing others even further. > > RFC 952 in fact prohibits trailing periods in domain names used > as host names, but 952 is a very early document, superceded by > all sorts of things both formally and informally. I note, for > example, that it has been a rather long time since every > boundary router on the network (a "gateway") had a name ending > in "-GW" or "-GATEWAY". Please don't read sentences of 952 out > of context and consider them binding. > > You will not find the "hostname" versus "domain" distinction > made in RFC 1034. Actually will find the distinction made. Please go re-read RFC 1034 and RFC 1035. Mark 3.5. Preferred name syntax The DNS specifications attempt to be as general as possible in the rules for constructing domain names. The idea is that the name of any existing object can be expressed as a domain name with minimal changes. However, when assigning a domain name for an object, the prudent user will select a name which satisfies both the rules of the domain system and any existing rules for the object, whether these rules are published or implied by existing programs. For example, when naming a mail domain, the user should satisfy both the rules of this memo and those in RFC-822. When creating a new host name, the old rules for HOSTS.TXT should be followed. This avoids problems when old software is converted to use domain names. Note: NS specifies a HOST. 3.3.11. NS RDATA format +--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+ / NSDNAME / / / +--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+ where: NSDNAME A which specifies a host which should be authoritative for the specified class and domain. Note: CNAME is a general DOMAIN. 3.3.1. CNAME RDATA format +--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+ / CNAME / / / +--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+ where: CNAME A which specifies the canonical or primary name for the owner. The owner name is an alias. > 1034 and its conceptual predecessors > discusses the domain name system as a replacement for the > hostname one and even notes (correctly) that different > applications have different syntax rules for names for hosts. > To make the ambiguity worse, when the term "host" or "hostname" > is used in applications in conjunction with the DNS, that term > often refers to the leaf-note label and not to the FQDN. See, > for example, section 3.7 of RFC 821, which describes > "Fred.Cambridge.UK" as a possible "host-and-domain identifier". > However, the familiar "mailbox" is defined as > ::= "@" > Note that it is not > "@" > or > "@" > > RFC 1034 also seems to believe that all fully-qualified (aka > "absolute") domains names, including those used to refer to > hosts, end in a period, even if that period is typographically > omitted for convenience. > Of course, it also contains a > masterwork of apparently-circular definition: "A domain is > identified by a domain name, and consists of that part of the > domain name space that is at or below the domain name which > specifies the domain." > > While 1034 suggests that the trailing period is always > permitted, even if it is implied, Section 2.3.1 of 1035 gives a > syntax that doesn't permit them. But it does so without trying > to distinguish between a "host" and a "domain". In particular, > it says that [all of] "The labels must follow the rules for > ARPANET host names", which is ultimately a reference to 952 > although 1035 repeats the rule. That rule is applied to all > labels, not just the leaf one or ones identifying hosts. > > As an indirect illustration of this, note that 1035 Section 3.5 > describes IN-ADDR.ARPA as supporting "host address to host name > mapping". That mapping is to an FQDN, not a label or "hostname" > as you use the term above. It does for almost all possible hostnames. Maximum length hostnames can't fit into the DNS. For that mapping to be valid the data encoded in the FQDN must map back to a valid hostname. If I put "!@#@#$%%^&^&*$%^.example.net" in that PTR record would you claim that it is a valid hostname? The DNS is much more than a distributed HOST <-> ADDRESS mapping mechinism. It was designed to be general. This was a good thing. However that does mean that you need to be aware of what is valid and what is invalid as the DNS itself does protect you when you get it wrong. > RFC 1123 makes explicit provision for trailing dots in > application interfaces to domain names ("hosts") while noting > that RFC 822 (and 821) do not permit that syntax in the > protocols. Nothing has ever permitted a UI designer, even for a > mail-related program, from accepting the trailing dot as long as > it is removed (and any searching or aliases resolved) before the > name goes out on the wire. But forcing people to put the period in when we have stuffed up the API is just stupid. RFC 1535 also shows that RFC 1123 was wrong in this respect. An absolute name should always match without having to remember to put periods at the end. The common search strategy didn't do this along with automatically created search lists lead to the *.EDU.COM fiasco. The search strategy was modified as reaction to RFC 1535. It however need to be modified further. I've been arguing this for years. Getting others to see the issue has been a problem. Remember when RFC 1123 and RFC 1535 were written the search strategy was to try the entered name last. That also ment you often needed to skip across wildcard MX records so the search didn't stop on a NODATA response. If we had though to stop on NODATA as well as trying the name as entered first when it had multiple labels than I suspect there wouldn't be a issue now. However the changes in response to RFC 1535 didn't do that and we need a RFC that describes how to do searching correctly. > So I believe the distinction you are trying to make is not > historically supported, not particularly helpful, ambiguous, and > probably just plain wrong. > > > regards, > john > -- Mark Andrews, ISC 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: Mark_Andrews@isc.org _______________________________________________ DNSOP mailing list DNSOP@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop From dnsop-bounces@ietf.org Fri Sep 28 21:03:46 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbQd4-0004PY-Vj; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 20:56:22 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbQd2-0004PL-Er; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 20:56:20 -0400 Received: from mx.isc.org ([2001:4f8:0:2::1c]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbQd1-00027H-3y; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 20:56:20 -0400 Received: from farside.isc.org (farside.isc.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:3:bb::5]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "farside.isc.org", Issuer "ISC CA" (verified OK)) by mx.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21F7B11402B; Sat, 29 Sep 2007 00:56:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from Mark_Andrews@isc.org) Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (localhost.isc.org [IPv6:::1]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "drugs.dv.isc.org", Issuer "ISC CA" (verified OK)) by farside.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A73D9E6085; Sat, 29 Sep 2007 00:56:11 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from marka@isc.org) Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by drugs.dv.isc.org (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l8T0spoI016523; Sat, 29 Sep 2007 10:54:52 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from marka@drugs.dv.isc.org) Message-Id: <200709290054.l8T0spoI016523@drugs.dv.isc.org> To: John C Klensin From: Mark Andrews Subject: Re: [DNSOP] Re: getaddrinfo() and searching In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 28 Sep 2007 11:06:17 -0400." <3B7852836BF61953FE9B95BA@p3.JCK.COM> Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 10:54:51 +1000 X-Spam-Score: -1.4 (-) X-Scan-Signature: e8c5db863102a3ada84e0cd52a81a79e Cc: dnsop@ietf.org, ipv6@ietf.org, IETF-Discussion Discussion X-BeenThere: dnsop@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF DNSOP WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: dnsop-bounces@ietf.org > > > --On Friday, 28 September, 2007 09:48 +1000 Mark Andrews > wrote: > > >... > >> It's not. Even without IPv6, having search domains means you > >> can get unexpected results. If that's not acceptable, don't > >> complain, but put a period behind your FQDNs. > > > > Please state were in RFC 952 a final period is legal in > > a hostname. > > > > Remember applications take HOSTNAMES not DOMAIN NAMES. > > There are HOSTNAMES that you cannot store in the DNS. > > There are DOMAIN NAMES that are not legal HOSTNAMES. > > Mark, your recollection and understanding of history and > vocabulary may be different from mine (and probably is), but I > think you are getting confused by some informal terminology and > risking confusing others even further. > > RFC 952 in fact prohibits trailing periods in domain names used > as host names, but 952 is a very early document, superceded by > all sorts of things both formally and informally. I note, for > example, that it has been a rather long time since every > boundary router on the network (a "gateway") had a name ending > in "-GW" or "-GATEWAY". Please don't read sentences of 952 out > of context and consider them binding. > > You will not find the "hostname" versus "domain" distinction > made in RFC 1034. Actually will find the distinction made. Please go re-read RFC 1034 and RFC 1035. Mark 3.5. Preferred name syntax The DNS specifications attempt to be as general as possible in the rules for constructing domain names. The idea is that the name of any existing object can be expressed as a domain name with minimal changes. However, when assigning a domain name for an object, the prudent user will select a name which satisfies both the rules of the domain system and any existing rules for the object, whether these rules are published or implied by existing programs. For example, when naming a mail domain, the user should satisfy both the rules of this memo and those in RFC-822. When creating a new host name, the old rules for HOSTS.TXT should be followed. This avoids problems when old software is converted to use domain names. Note: NS specifies a HOST. 3.3.11. NS RDATA format +--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+ / NSDNAME / / / +--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+ where: NSDNAME A which specifies a host which should be authoritative for the specified class and domain. Note: CNAME is a general DOMAIN. 3.3.1. CNAME RDATA format +--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+ / CNAME / / / +--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+ where: CNAME A which specifies the canonical or primary name for the owner. The owner name is an alias. > 1034 and its conceptual predecessors > discusses the domain name system as a replacement for the > hostname one and even notes (correctly) that different > applications have different syntax rules for names for hosts. > To make the ambiguity worse, when the term "host" or "hostname" > is used in applications in conjunction with the DNS, that term > often refers to the leaf-note label and not to the FQDN. See, > for example, section 3.7 of RFC 821, which describes > "Fred.Cambridge.UK" as a possible "host-and-domain identifier". > However, the familiar "mailbox" is defined as > ::= "@" > Note that it is not > "@" > or > "@" > > RFC 1034 also seems to believe that all fully-qualified (aka > "absolute") domains names, including those used to refer to > hosts, end in a period, even if that period is typographically > omitted for convenience. > Of course, it also contains a > masterwork of apparently-circular definition: "A domain is > identified by a domain name, and consists of that part of the > domain name space that is at or below the domain name which > specifies the domain." > > While 1034 suggests that the trailing period is always > permitted, even if it is implied, Section 2.3.1 of 1035 gives a > syntax that doesn't permit them. But it does so without trying > to distinguish between a "host" and a "domain". In particular, > it says that [all of] "The labels must follow the rules for > ARPANET host names", which is ultimately a reference to 952 > although 1035 repeats the rule. That rule is applied to all > labels, not just the leaf one or ones identifying hosts. > > As an indirect illustration of this, note that 1035 Section 3.5 > describes IN-ADDR.ARPA as supporting "host address to host name > mapping". That mapping is to an FQDN, not a label or "hostname" > as you use the term above. It does for almost all possible hostnames. Maximum length hostnames can't fit into the DNS. For that mapping to be valid the data encoded in the FQDN must map back to a valid hostname. If I put "!@#@#$%%^&^&*$%^.example.net" in that PTR record would you claim that it is a valid hostname? The DNS is much more than a distributed HOST <-> ADDRESS mapping mechinism. It was designed to be general. This was a good thing. However that does mean that you need to be aware of what is valid and what is invalid as the DNS itself does protect you when you get it wrong. > RFC 1123 makes explicit provision for trailing dots in > application interfaces to domain names ("hosts") while noting > that RFC 822 (and 821) do not permit that syntax in the > protocols. Nothing has ever permitted a UI designer, even for a > mail-related program, from accepting the trailing dot as long as > it is removed (and any searching or aliases resolved) before the > name goes out on the wire. But forcing people to put the period in when we have stuffed up the API is just stupid. RFC 1535 also shows that RFC 1123 was wrong in this respect. An absolute name should always match without having to remember to put periods at the end. The common search strategy didn't do this along with automatically created search lists lead to the *.EDU.COM fiasco. The search strategy was modified as reaction to RFC 1535. It however need to be modified further. I've been arguing this for years. Getting others to see the issue has been a problem. Remember when RFC 1123 and RFC 1535 were written the search strategy was to try the entered name last. That also ment you often needed to skip across wildcard MX records so the search didn't stop on a NODATA response. If we had though to stop on NODATA as well as trying the name as entered first when it had multiple labels than I suspect there wouldn't be a issue now. However the changes in response to RFC 1535 didn't do that and we need a RFC that describes how to do searching correctly. > So I believe the distinction you are trying to make is not > historically supported, not particularly helpful, ambiguous, and > probably just plain wrong. > > > regards, > john > -- Mark Andrews, ISC 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: Mark_Andrews@isc.org _______________________________________________ DNSOP mailing list DNSOP@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop From dnsop-bounces@ietf.org Fri Sep 28 23:02:09 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbSUY-0008VN-Ks; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 22:55:42 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbSUW-0008Ts-CJ; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 22:55:40 -0400 Received: from cirrus.av8.net ([130.105.36.66]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbSUV-0003rl-70; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 22:55:40 -0400 Received: from [130.105.12.10] ([130.105.12.10]) (authenticated bits=0) by cirrus.av8.net (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l8T2tV5u030017 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO); Fri, 28 Sep 2007 22:55:33 -0400 Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 22:55:31 -0400 (EDT) From: Dean Anderson X-X-Sender: dean@citation2.av8.net To: Paul Wouters Subject: Re: [DNSOP] Re: Last Call: draft-ietf-dnsop-reflectors-are-evil (Preventing Use of Recursive Nameservers in Reflector Attacks) to BCP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 52e1467c2184c31006318542db5614d5 Cc: dnsop@ietf.org, Paul Hoffman , ietf@ietf.org X-BeenThere: dnsop@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF DNSOP WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: dnsop-bounces@ietf.org On Fri, 28 Sep 2007, Paul Wouters wrote: > On Fri, 28 Sep 2007, Dean Anderson wrote: > > > Maybe its not mentioned because its not a practical solution. But > > whatever the reason it isn't mentioned, a 25 million user VPN is not > > going to happen with 10/8. A comcast person recently complained on PPML > > that there wasn't enough RFC1918 space for their internal network. > > Time for them to migrate to IPv6? :) There was an extended discussion of that. It was suggested that IPv6 would be killed by IPv4 IP address exhaustion through route table expansion. I suggested that maybe IPv6 was already dead, and that one might consider instead CLNP/TUBA (RFC1347, RFC1561, et al) because it works already. One would use ISIS and IDRP instead of OSPF and BGP. Then add IPv4 proxy gateways and client support as necessary, etc. I was surprised to find that this is about as much work as what remains for IPv6, and we know that CLNP is stable. I digress. I wrote a detailed message posted on 9/10 on the subject if anyone is interested. Contact me offlist, or look in the ppml archives at arin.net. --Dean -- Av8 Internet Prepared to pay a premium for better service? www.av8.net faster, more reliable, better service 617 344 9000 _______________________________________________ DNSOP mailing list DNSOP@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop From dnsop-bounces@ietf.org Fri Sep 28 23:02:09 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbSUY-0008VN-Ks; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 22:55:42 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbSUW-0008Ts-CJ; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 22:55:40 -0400 Received: from cirrus.av8.net ([130.105.36.66]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbSUV-0003rl-70; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 22:55:40 -0400 Received: from [130.105.12.10] ([130.105.12.10]) (authenticated bits=0) by cirrus.av8.net (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l8T2tV5u030017 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO); Fri, 28 Sep 2007 22:55:33 -0400 Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 22:55:31 -0400 (EDT) From: Dean Anderson X-X-Sender: dean@citation2.av8.net To: Paul Wouters Subject: Re: [DNSOP] Re: Last Call: draft-ietf-dnsop-reflectors-are-evil (Preventing Use of Recursive Nameservers in Reflector Attacks) to BCP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 52e1467c2184c31006318542db5614d5 Cc: dnsop@ietf.org, Paul Hoffman , ietf@ietf.org X-BeenThere: dnsop@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF DNSOP WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: dnsop-bounces@ietf.org On Fri, 28 Sep 2007, Paul Wouters wrote: > On Fri, 28 Sep 2007, Dean Anderson wrote: > > > Maybe its not mentioned because its not a practical solution. But > > whatever the reason it isn't mentioned, a 25 million user VPN is not > > going to happen with 10/8. A comcast person recently complained on PPML > > that there wasn't enough RFC1918 space for their internal network. > > Time for them to migrate to IPv6? :) There was an extended discussion of that. It was suggested that IPv6 would be killed by IPv4 IP address exhaustion through route table expansion. I suggested that maybe IPv6 was already dead, and that one might consider instead CLNP/TUBA (RFC1347, RFC1561, et al) because it works already. One would use ISIS and IDRP instead of OSPF and BGP. Then add IPv4 proxy gateways and client support as necessary, etc. I was surprised to find that this is about as much work as what remains for IPv6, and we know that CLNP is stable. I digress. I wrote a detailed message posted on 9/10 on the subject if anyone is interested. Contact me offlist, or look in the ppml archives at arin.net. --Dean -- Av8 Internet Prepared to pay a premium for better service? www.av8.net faster, more reliable, better service 617 344 9000 _______________________________________________ DNSOP mailing list DNSOP@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop From laniCoker@akl-bautrocknung.de Sat Sep 29 00:35:28 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbU36-0007f0-0Y for dnsop-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 29 Sep 2007 00:35:28 -0400 Received: from broadband-dynamic-central2158.connect.com.fj ([210.7.31.110] helo=[210.7.7.122]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbU31-0007XX-NH for dnsop-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 29 Sep 2007 00:35:26 -0400 Received: from PHYLLIS ([176.140.91.126] helo=PHYLLIS) by [210.7.7.122] ( sendmail 8.13.3/8.13.1) with esmtpa id 1gjKFD-000KGC-Gp for dnsop-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 29 Sep 2007 16:40:14 -0700 Message-ID: <000c01c802f2$01217450$7a0707d2@PHYLLIS> From: "lani Coker" To: Subject: magogies Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 16:39:40 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0003_01C802B7.54C29C50" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: ea4ac80f790299f943f0a53be7e1a21a ------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C802B7.54C29C50 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi To dnsop-archive Emergency report. 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    ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C80271.CC777540-- From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Sep 29 02:23:53 2007 Return-path: <> Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbVk1-0007Ns-OP for dnsop-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 29 Sep 2007 02:23:53 -0400 Received: from [200.27.51.146] (helo=cdecproxy.cdec-sic.cl) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbVjv-0007B1-8L for dnsop-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 29 Sep 2007 02:23:53 -0400 Received: by cdecproxy.cdec-sic.cl (Postfix) id F30F320080; Sat, 29 Sep 2007 02:23:09 -0400 (CLT) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 02:23:09 -0400 (CLT) From: MAILER-DAEMON@cdec-sic.cl (Mail Delivery System) Subject: Undelivered Mail Returned to Sender To: dnsop-archive@lists.ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/report; report-type=delivery-status; boundary="BA97C20072.1191046989/cdecproxy.cdec-sic.cl" Message-Id: <20070929062309.F30F320080@cdecproxy.cdec-sic.cl> X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 2857c5c041d6c02d7181d602c22822c8 This is a MIME-encapsulated message. --BA97C20072.1191046989/cdecproxy.cdec-sic.cl Content-Description: Notification Content-Type: text/plain This is the Postfix program at host cdecproxy.cdec-sic.cl. I'm sorry to have to inform you that your message could not be delivered to one or more recipients. It's attached below. For further assistance, please send mail to If you do so, please include this problem report. You can delete your own text from the attached returned message. 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If you are interested in this proposal please contact your personal manager to: NickVelazquezEH@gmail.com If you received this message in error please send a blank email to: ChaseWoodwardJO@gmail.com From dnsop-bounces@ietf.org Sat Sep 29 05:21:42 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbYNZ-0003SF-H1; Sat, 29 Sep 2007 05:12:53 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbImU-0008Nr-3m; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 12:33:34 -0400 Received: from dsl-66-59-230-40.static.linkline.com ([66.59.230.40] helo=mauve.mrochek.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbImN-0006Dv-Nh; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 12:33:34 -0400 Received: from dkim-sign.mauve.mrochek.com by mauve.mrochek.com (PMDF V6.1-1 #35243) id <01MLVYR08AR400C1U8@mauve.mrochek.com>; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 09:33:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mauve.mrochek.com by mauve.mrochek.com (PMDF V6.1-1 #35243) id <01MLUTN49NEO005BGY@mauve.mrochek.com>; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 09:33:06 -0700 (PDT) Message-id: <01MLVYQYYYF0005BGY@mauve.mrochek.com> Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 09:17:25 -0700 (PDT) From: Ned Freed Subject: Re: [DNSOP] Re: Last Call: draft-ietf-dnsop-reflectors-are-evil (Preventing Use of Recursive Nameservers in Reflector Attacks) to BCP In-reply-to: "Your message dated Fri, 28 Sep 2007 12:04:34 -0400" <21112CF5-0ABE-4509-8B1D-1C5AB74FFDCB@ca.afilias.info> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; delsp=yes; format=flowed References: <200709281015.l8SAFwfq087916@bartok.nlnetlabs.nl> <20070928071931.GA21696@nic.fr> <3B1D547E-0F40-4A6D-B786-EB765E58A7F2@isc.org> <21112CF5-0ABE-4509-8B1D-1C5AB74FFDCB@ca.afilias.info> To: Joe Abley DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nowsp; d=mrochek.com; s=mauve; t=1190997189; h=Date: From:Subject:MIME-version:Content-type; b=E+PiGGOnYHOs09H5lRwTE4p1R kJbjIzNqypCj+HyotV1Rua9fN3/eCuh08BghTKEhT7qZ6ChNDsupLLlYVnIMQ== X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e8a67952aa972b528dd04570d58ad8fe X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 05:12:51 -0400 Cc: dnsop@ietf.org, Paul Hoffman , ietf@ietf.org X-BeenThere: dnsop@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF DNSOP WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: dnsop-bounces@ietf.org > On 28-Sep-2007, at 1136, Paul Hoffman wrote: > > It is not "obvious", at least to some of the people I have spoken > > with. It is also not obvious to VPN vendors; otherwise, they would > > have easy-to-use settings to make it happen. > I'm surprised by that comment. I'm not. As it happens I've used three different VPN services in the past few years and I will soon be forced to switch to a fourth. In each case the IT folks managed to jury-rig things so that DNS queries got redirected, but I've been told in some cases it required quite a bit of effort. And it is also my understanding that requiring this significantly limited our our options in choosing VPN solutions. > I think it's a common use case that organisations who deploy VPNs > have split DNS; that is, namespaces available through internal > network resolvers that do not appear in the global namespace. Yes, we have this in spades at Sun. Can't say it works all that well, but this is really a separate issue. > In my experience, it is normal for: > - VPN client software to use IP addresses rather than names to > establish a secure tunnel with the home network I'm sure this is done, but I think it is more common to use DNS entries. You have to validate the server's certificate or whatever anyway, so all direct use of IP address does is limit certain denial of service attacks but at the cost of a significant loss in flexibility. > - Local resolver settings on the VPN client's machine to be re- > written to use internal home network nameservers while the VPN > session is active Yeah, that's what the client ends up doing. I don't know the specifics of how this has been implemented in the various clients I've had to use, but it has tended to be quite fragile - on numerous occasions things have failed in such a way that my DNS settings were completely trashed and I had to go in and reset them manually. I eventually wrote a little script I can run to force things back to where they're supposed to be with a single command. Perhaps if this the need for this were called out more specifically more attention would be paid to making this work well. > This is certainly how the cisco VPN client supplied to me by my > employer (and the subsequent versions I've downloaded directly from > cisco) work, for example. I was under the impression that cisco had > fairly significant market share in this area. Since I don't really know who or what's responsible for the many problems I've seen with this I'm not going to provide specifics regarding the clients I've used. However, I will say that I think you've had a fair bit of luck here. > This is not to say that the topic doesn't deserve mention in the > draft at hand. However, your logic in the last sentence above seems > suspect to me. FWIW, I am in full support of Paul and John's position here. Ned _______________________________________________ DNSOP mailing list DNSOP@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop From dnsop-bounces@ietf.org Sat Sep 29 05:21:43 2007 Return-path: Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbYNZ-0003SF-H1; Sat, 29 Sep 2007 05:12:53 -0400 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbImU-0008Nr-3m; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 12:33:34 -0400 Received: from dsl-66-59-230-40.static.linkline.com ([66.59.230.40] helo=mauve.mrochek.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbImN-0006Dv-Nh; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 12:33:34 -0400 Received: from dkim-sign.mauve.mrochek.com by mauve.mrochek.com (PMDF V6.1-1 #35243) id <01MLVYR08AR400C1U8@mauve.mrochek.com>; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 09:33:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mauve.mrochek.com by mauve.mrochek.com (PMDF V6.1-1 #35243) id <01MLUTN49NEO005BGY@mauve.mrochek.com>; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 09:33:06 -0700 (PDT) Message-id: <01MLVYQYYYF0005BGY@mauve.mrochek.com> Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 09:17:25 -0700 (PDT) From: Ned Freed Subject: Re: [DNSOP] Re: Last Call: draft-ietf-dnsop-reflectors-are-evil (Preventing Use of Recursive Nameservers in Reflector Attacks) to BCP In-reply-to: "Your message dated Fri, 28 Sep 2007 12:04:34 -0400" <21112CF5-0ABE-4509-8B1D-1C5AB74FFDCB@ca.afilias.info> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; delsp=yes; format=flowed References: <200709281015.l8SAFwfq087916@bartok.nlnetlabs.nl> <20070928071931.GA21696@nic.fr> <3B1D547E-0F40-4A6D-B786-EB765E58A7F2@isc.org> <21112CF5-0ABE-4509-8B1D-1C5AB74FFDCB@ca.afilias.info> To: Joe Abley DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nowsp; d=mrochek.com; s=mauve; t=1190997189; h=Date: From:Subject:MIME-version:Content-type; b=E+PiGGOnYHOs09H5lRwTE4p1R kJbjIzNqypCj+HyotV1Rua9fN3/eCuh08BghTKEhT7qZ6ChNDsupLLlYVnIMQ== X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e8a67952aa972b528dd04570d58ad8fe X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 05:12:51 -0400 Cc: dnsop@ietf.org, Paul Hoffman , ietf@ietf.org X-BeenThere: dnsop@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF DNSOP WG mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: dnsop-bounces@ietf.org > On 28-Sep-2007, at 1136, Paul Hoffman wrote: > > It is not "obvious", at least to some of the people I have spoken > > with. It is also not obvious to VPN vendors; otherwise, they would > > have easy-to-use settings to make it happen. > I'm surprised by that comment. I'm not. As it happens I've used three different VPN services in the past few years and I will soon be forced to switch to a fourth. In each case the IT folks managed to jury-rig things so that DNS queries got redirected, but I've been told in some cases it required quite a bit of effort. And it is also my understanding that requiring this significantly limited our our options in choosing VPN solutions. > I think it's a common use case that organisations who deploy VPNs > have split DNS; that is, namespaces available through internal > network resolvers that do not appear in the global namespace. Yes, we have this in spades at Sun. Can't say it works all that well, but this is really a separate issue. > In my experience, it is normal for: > - VPN client software to use IP addresses rather than names to > establish a secure tunnel with the home network I'm sure this is done, but I think it is more common to use DNS entries. You have to validate the server's certificate or whatever anyway, so all direct use of IP address does is limit certain denial of service attacks but at the cost of a significant loss in flexibility. > - Local resolver settings on the VPN client's machine to be re- > written to use internal home network nameservers while the VPN > session is active Yeah, that's what the client ends up doing. I don't know the specifics of how this has been implemented in the various clients I've had to use, but it has tended to be quite fragile - on numerous occasions things have failed in such a way that my DNS settings were completely trashed and I had to go in and reset them manually. I eventually wrote a little script I can run to force things back to where they're supposed to be with a single command. Perhaps if this the need for this were called out more specifically more attention would be paid to making this work well. > This is certainly how the cisco VPN client supplied to me by my > employer (and the subsequent versions I've downloaded directly from > cisco) work, for example. I was under the impression that cisco had > fairly significant market share in this area. Since I don't really know who or what's responsible for the many problems I've seen with this I'm not going to provide specifics regarding the clients I've used. However, I will say that I think you've had a fair bit of luck here. > This is not to say that the topic doesn't deserve mention in the > draft at hand. However, your logic in the last sentence above seems > suspect to me. FWIW, I am in full support of Paul and John's position here. Ned _______________________________________________ DNSOP mailing list DNSOP@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop From wangDarnell@IT-ACTIV.de Sat Sep 29 07:02:33 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iba5h-0004oB-KM for dnsop-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 29 Sep 2007 07:02:33 -0400 Received: from host-84-222-143-72.cust-adsl.tiscali.it ([84.222.143.72]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iba5e-0002Sl-TG for dnsop-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 29 Sep 2007 07:02:31 -0400 Received: by 10.81.172.193 with SMTP id RIHoTaBaUkXGl; Sat, 29 Sep 2007 13:04:36 +0200 (GMT) Received: by 192.168.26.165 with SMTP id FksXDcHVyoXdCl.9697642638258; Sat, 29 Sep 2007 13:04:34 +0200 (GMT) Message-ID: <000801c80288$82ef7c80$488fde54@lx7o3zga5khlvb> From: "wang Darnell" To: Subject: siestas Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 13:04:31 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0004_01C80299.46784C80" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 3.5 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: ea4ac80f790299f943f0a53be7e1a21a ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C80299.46784C80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi To dnsop-archive Emergency report. 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