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Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 11:24:39 -0500
From: "Walt Steverson"
To: "IETF IPPM WG"
In-Reply-To: <3E3D8ACB1917BD48A27F853F9C4AC79D060D6E3A@xmb-blr-412.apac.cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [ippm] TWAMP Extensions
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I would also like to see all three taken up as WG items.
- Walt
On Wed, Sep 24, 2008 at 10:22 PM, Ravi H (ravh) wrote:
> I second Murtaza. All three could be taken up as WG tokens.
>
> Thanks,
> Ravi
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ippm-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> Murtaza Chiba (mchiba)
> Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2008 11:57 PM
> To: Henk Uijterwaal; IETF IPPM WG
> Subject: Re: [ippm] TWAMP Extensions
>
> Hello Matt and Henk,
> I would like to endorse that all three be taken up as WG items.
>
> Thanks,
> _murtaza
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: ippm-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
> > Of Henk Uijterwaal
> > Sent: Monday, September 22, 2008 5:46 AM
> > To: IETF IPPM WG
> > Subject: [ippm] TWAMP Extensions
> >
> > IPPM Group,
> >
> > In Dublin, 3 drafts were presented to extend the TWAMP protocol:
> >
> > draft-morton-ippm-more-twamp-02 (Morton & Hedayat)
> > draft-morton-ippm-twamp-reflect-padding-00 (Morton and Ciavattone)
> > draft-morton-ippm-twamp-session-cntrl-00 (Morton)
> >
> > All available through the ID DB:
> > https://datatracker.ietf.org/drafts/?filename=draft-morton
> >
> > For slidepacks discussing these drafts, please see:
> > https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/72/materials.html
> >
> > We would like to hear from people if all/some/none of these drafts
> > should be picked up as working group drafts. Please post your
> > comments to the list before October 6, 2008.
> >
> > Matt & Henk
> >
> > --
> > --------------------------------------------------------------
> > ----------------
> > Henk Uijterwaal Email:
> > henk.uijterwaal(at)ripe.net
> > RIPE Network Coordination Centre
> > http://www.amsterdamned.org/~henk
> > P.O.Box 10096 Singel 258 Phone: +31.20.5354414
> > 1001 EB Amsterdam 1016 AB Amsterdam Fax: +31.20.5354445
> > The Netherlands The Netherlands Mobile: +31.6.55861746
> > --------------------------------------------------------------
> > ----------------
> >
> > Is one of the choices leaving the office open?
> > Alan Greenspan on the next
> > elections
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > ippm mailing list
> > ippm@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm
> >
> _______________________________________________
> ippm mailing list
> ippm@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm
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I would also like to see all three taken up as WG items.
- Walt
On Wed, Sep 24, 2008 at 10:22 PM, Ravi H (ravh)
<ravh@cisco.com> wrote:
I second Murtaza. All three could be taken up as WG tokens.
Thanks,
Ravi
Murtaza Chiba (mchiba)
Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2008 11:57 PM
To: Henk Uijterwaal; IETF IPPM WG
Subject: Re: [ippm] TWAMP Extensions
Hello Matt and Henk,
I would like to endorse that all three be taken up as WG items.
Thanks,
_murtaza
> -----Original Message-----
> From:
ippm-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:
ippm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
> Of Henk Uijterwaal
> Sent: Monday, September 22, 2008 5:46 AM
> To: IETF IPPM WG
> Subject: [ippm] TWAMP Extensions
>
> IPPM Group,
>
> In Dublin, 3 drafts were presented to extend the TWAMP protocol:
>
> draft-morton-ippm-more-twamp-02 (Morton & Hedayat)
> draft-morton-ippm-twamp-reflect-padding-00 (Morton and Ciavattone)
> draft-morton-ippm-twamp-session-cntrl-00 (Morton)
>
> All available through the ID DB:
>
https://datatracker.ietf.org/drafts/?filename=draft-morton
>
> For slidepacks discussing these drafts, please see:
>
https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/72/materials.html
>
> We would like to hear from people if all/some/none of these drafts
> should be picked up as working group drafts. Please post your
> comments to the list before October 6, 2008.
>
> Matt & Henk
>
> --
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> ----------------
> Henk Uijterwaal Email:
> henk.uijterwaal(at)
ripe.net
> RIPE Network Coordination Centre
>
http://www.amsterdamned.org/~henk
> P.O.Box 10096 Singel 258 Phone: +31.20.5354414
> 1001 EB Amsterdam 1016 AB Amsterdam Fax: +31.20.5354445
> The Netherlands The Netherlands Mobile: +31.6.55861746
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> ----------------
>
> Is one of the choices leaving the office open?
> Alan Greenspan on the next
> elections
>
> _______________________________________________
> ippm mailing list
>
ippm@ietf.org
>
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm
>
_______________________________________________
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From ippm-bounces@ietf.org Thu Oct 2 14:51:46 2008
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Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 16:51:42 -0500
From: "Walt Steverson"
To: "IETF IPPM WG"
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Subject: [ippm] Questions about the TWAMP reflect padding draft
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Al & Len,
I've got three questions/comments about
draft-morton-ippm-twamp-reflect-padding-00.
Question #1:
The ability for the Session-Sender to store extra information in the
test packet padding seems like a useful capability. However, I'm
uncertain about how the "reflect and operate on padding bits" mode
would work. Wouldn't the Session-Sender and Session-Reflector have to
agree on the format of the data within the reflected padding? Would
the negotiation of how to treat the reflected padding consume more
mode bits or would the setting of the "reflect and operate on padding
bits" flag imply a format for the reflected padding?
Question #2:
In section 4.1.2 of the draft it states: "IF the test packet length
is truncated within this field, THEN ALL packet padding MUST be
reflected by Session-Reflectors using this feature." I take this to
mean that if the padding-to-be-reflected length is greater than the
normal length of the test packet padding then the Session-Reflector
will increase the size of the packet padding to ensure that all of the
padding-to-be-reflected will fit. Is that the case or will the
padding-to-be-reflected be truncated to fit inside the normal length
of the test packet padding? If the two packet padding lengths are
incompatible which one wins? Would it be easier to specify in the
draft that the padding-to-be-reflected length MUST be less than or
equal to the amount of test packet padding that the Session-Reflector
will insert?
Question #3:
What happens when the Control-Client sends a Request-TW-Session
message with a padding-to-be-reflected length of 12 bytes and the
Server responds by accepting but specifies a length of 6 bytes in the
padding-to-be-reflected length field? It seems to me as though the
padding-to-be-reflected length field in the Accept-Session message is
only useful when the session is not accepted in which case it can
provide feedback to the client about what the acceptable value would
have been. Otherwise if the test session is accepted the
padding-to-be-reflected length field in the Accept-Session message
MUST match the length specified in the Request-TW-Session message.
Thanks,
Walt
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From ippm-bounces@ietf.org Fri Oct 3 09:26:20 2008
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Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2008 12:26:33 -0400
To: "Walt Steverson" , "IETF IPPM WG"
From: Al Morton
In-Reply-To:
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Subject: Re: [ippm] Questions about the TWAMP reflect padding draft
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Walt,
thanks for you interest and questions, replies below,
At 05:51 PM 10/2/2008, Walt Steverson wrote:
>...
>draft-morton-ippm-twamp-reflect-padding-00.
>
>Question #1:
>The ability for the Session-Sender to store extra information in the
>test packet padding seems like a useful capability. However, I'm
>uncertain about how the "reflect and operate on padding bits" mode
>would work. Wouldn't the Session-Sender and Session-Reflector have to
>agree on the format of the data within the reflected padding? Would
>the negotiation of how to treat the reflected padding consume more
>mode bits or would the setting of the "reflect and operate on padding
>bits" flag imply a format for the reflected padding?
Yes and yes. "reflect AND operate" is a complicated feature, and
more development is needed. I think that a capability to
communicate a manufacturer ID and version code might be needed.
I need to discuss this particular feature with Len some more.
It was also something I mentioned in the IETF-72 slides, which were
more advanced than the draft.
>Question #2:
>In section 4.1.2 of the draft it states: "IF the test packet length
>is truncated within this field, THEN ALL packet padding MUST be
>reflected by Session-Reflectors using this feature." I take this to
>mean that if the padding-to-be-reflected length is greater than the
>normal length of the test packet padding then the Session-Reflector
>will increase the size of the packet padding to ensure that all of the
>padding-to-be-reflected will fit.
That's one way to read it, but the sentence needs clarification.
We were thinking of the case where the Session-Reflector would
truncate the padding, such that the IP info fields of test packets
are the same length from Sender->Reflector and Reflector->Sender.
The larger TWAMP-Test Reflector Packet format causes this issue.
>Is that the case or will the
>padding-to-be-reflected be truncated to fit inside the normal length
>of the test packet padding? If the two packet padding lengths are
>incompatible which one wins? Would it be easier to specify in the
>draft that the padding-to-be-reflected length MUST be less than or
>equal to the amount of test packet padding that the Session-Reflector
>will insert?
Yes, that's a good way to do it.
>Question #3:
>What happens when the Control-Client sends a Request-TW-Session
>message with a padding-to-be-reflected length of 12 bytes and the
>Server responds by accepting but specifies a length of 6 bytes in the
>padding-to-be-reflected length field? It seems to me as though the
>padding-to-be-reflected length field in the Accept-Session message is
>only useful when the session is not accepted in which case it can
>provide feedback to the client about what the acceptable value would
>have been. Otherwise if the test session is accepted the
>padding-to-be-reflected length field in the Accept-Session message
>MUST match the length specified in the Request-TW-Session message.
These are valid considerations, given the function that the
current field name implies. We definitely need to add
complete descriptions for ALL new fields, and will do so.
What we really meant here was, for each of the two formats:
Request-TW-Session Actual Octets to be reflected
Accept Session Actual Octets being reflected
It's confusing because there was never any padding in these messages,
just some MBZ available for the future (now), which I incorrectly
referred to as "padding".
So, rather than a length field as the name implies,
this is a 2 octet field that the Control-Client can expect
compliant Servers to reflect in the Accept Session message.
That's how we saw it, at least.
We probably should have named this memo: Reflect Octets Feature
We've been working on the 01 version off and on
since July, trying to clean-up some points like these.
stay tuned, and thanks again,
Al
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From ippm-bounces@ietf.org Mon Oct 6 06:35:18 2008
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Subject: Re: [ippm] TWAMP Extensions
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Hi all,
> In Dublin, 3 drafts were presented to extend the TWAMP protocol:
>
> draft-morton-ippm-more-twamp-02 (Morton & Hedayat)
> draft-morton-ippm-twamp-reflect-padding-00 (Morton and Ciavattone)
> draft-morton-ippm-twamp-session-cntrl-00 (Morton)
>
> All available through the ID DB:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/drafts/?filename=draft-morton
>
> For slidepacks discussing these drafts, please see:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/72/materials.html
>
> We would like to hear from people if all/some/none of these drafts
> should be picked up as working group drafts. Please post your comments
> to the list before October 6, 2008.
Consensus seems to be that these drafts should be picked up as
working group documents. Authors, please submit as draft-ietf-ippm-xxx.
Those who supported them, please fire off your comments to the mailing
list so we can start discussing them.
Henk
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From ippm-bounces@ietf.org Mon Oct 6 15:21:49 2008
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Subject: [ippm] RFC 5357 on A Two-Way Active Measurement Protocol (TWAMP)
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A new Request for Comments is now available in online RFC libraries.
RFC 5357
Title: A Two-Way Active Measurement Protocol
(TWAMP)
Author: K. Hedayat, R. Krzanowski,
A. Morton, K. Yum,
J. Babiarz
Status: Standards Track
Date: October 2008
Mailbox: khedayat@brixnet.com,
roman.krzanowski@verizon.com,
acmorton@att.com, kyum@juniper.net,
babiarz@nortel.com
Pages: 26
Characters: 61960
Updates/Obsoletes/SeeAlso: None
I-D Tag: draft-ietf-ippm-twamp-09.txt
URL: http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc5357.txt
The One-way Active Measurement Protocol (OWAMP), specified in RFC
4656, provides a common protocol for measuring one-way metrics between network devices. OWAMP can be used bi-directionally to measure one-way
metrics in both directions between two network elements. However,
it does not accommodate round-trip or two-way measurements. This
memo specifies a Two-Way Active Measurement Protocol (TWAMP), based
on the OWAMP, that adds two-way or round-trip measurement capabilities. The TWAMP measurement architecture is usually comprised of two hosts with specific roles, and this allows for some protocol simplifications, making it an attractive alternative in some circumstances. [STANDARDS TRACK]
This document is a product of the IP Performance Metrics Working Group of the IETF.
This is now a Proposed Standard Protocol.
STANDARDS TRACK: This document specifies an Internet standards track
protocol for the Internet community,and requests discussion and suggestions
for improvements. Please refer to the current edition of the Internet
Official Protocol Standards (STD 1) for the standardization state and
status of this protocol. Distribution of this memo is unlimited.
This announcement is sent to the IETF-Announce and rfc-dist lists.
To subscribe or unsubscribe, see
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Requests for special distribution should be addressed to either the
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specifically noted otherwise on the RFC itself, all RFCs are for
unlimited distribution.
The RFC Editor Team
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Subject: [ippm] I-D Action:draft-ietf-ippm-duplicate-05.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the IP Performance Metrics Working Group of the IETF.
Title : A One-Way Packet Duplication Metric
Author(s) : H. Uijterwaal
Filename : draft-ietf-ippm-duplicate-05.txt
Pages : 14
Date : 2008-10-07
When a packet is sent from one host to the other, one normally
expects that exactly one copy of the packet that was sent arrives at
the destination. It is, however, possible that a packet is either
lost or that multiple copies arrive.
In earlier work a metric for packet loss has been defined. This
metric quantifies the case where a packet that is sent, does not
arrive at its destination within a reasonable time. In this memo, a
metric for another case is defined: a packet is sent, but multiple
copies arrive. The document also discusses streams and methods to
summarize the results of streams.
A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ippm-duplicate-05.txt
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Subject: Re: [ippm] WGLC for draft-ietf-ippm-delay-var-as.
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Hi all,
> This message announces the WGLC for draft-ietf-ippm-delay-var-as-01
>
> The draft has been discussed extensively in this group and appears
> to have support and be stable. We would like to start a Working Group Last
> Call in order to move it forward.
>
> Please raise any remaining issues by October 6, 2008, 9:00 UTC.
This was yesterday, no issues were raised, so we'll move this draft forward.
Henk
>
> A URL for the draft is:
>
>
>
>
> and the tools team also has a great page here:
>
>
>
>
> Matt & Henk
>
>
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From ippm-bounces@ietf.org Tue Oct 7 01:42:11 2008
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Subject: Re: [ippm] I-D Action:draft-ietf-ippm-duplicate-05.txt
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Hi all,
(As the author, not the chair)
Internet-Drafts@ietf.org wrote:
> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
> This draft is a work item of the IP Performance Metrics Working Group of the IETF.
>
>
> Title : A One-Way Packet Duplication Metric
> Author(s) : H. Uijterwaal
> Filename : draft-ietf-ippm-duplicate-05.txt
> Pages : 14
> Date : 2008-10-07
This draft is identical to the previous version except for a few clarifying
remarks when the metric is used in passive environments, as discussed in
Dublin.
Henk
>
> When a packet is sent from one host to the other, one normally
> expects that exactly one copy of the packet that was sent arrives at
> the destination. It is, however, possible that a packet is either
> lost or that multiple copies arrive.
>
> In earlier work a metric for packet loss has been defined. This
> metric quantifies the case where a packet that is sent, does not
> arrive at its destination within a reasonable time. In this memo, a
> metric for another case is defined: a packet is sent, but multiple
> copies arrive. The document also discusses streams and methods to
> summarize the results of streams.
>
> A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ippm-duplicate-05.txt
>
> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>
> Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader
> implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the
> Internet-Draft.
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
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> ippm@ietf.org
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Subject: [ippm] Minneapolis meeting
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Hi all,
We have a slot booked for Minneapolis. Please send any agenda topics to
the chairs.
Henk
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Subject: [ippm] I-D Action:draft-ietf-ippm-storetraceroutes-11.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the IP Performance Metrics Working Group of the IETF.
Title : Information Model and XML Data Model for Traceroute Measurements
Author(s) : S. Niccolini, et al.
Filename : draft-ietf-ippm-storetraceroutes-11.txt
Pages : 72
Date : 2008-10-08
This document describes a standard way to store the configuration and
the results of traceroute measurements. This document first of all
describes the terminology used in this document and the traceroute
tool itself; afterwards, the common information model is defined
dividing the information elements in two semantically separated
groups (configuration elements and results elements). Moreover an
additional element is defined to relate configuration elements and
results elements by means of a common unique identifier. On the
basis of the information model a data model based on XML is defined
to store the results of traceroute measurements.
A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ippm-storetraceroutes-11.txt
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From ippm-bounces@ietf.org Wed Oct 8 01:10:59 2008
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Hello Henk,
sorry for being late, I couldn't make it earlier.
No objections to the draft as is (I'm aware that I had ample
opportunity to object earlier).
Typos:
Section 4.2, last sentence of 2nd last textblock:
"However, approach has limitations that are..."
^^^^
Insert "this" or "the".
Section 6.2.2, first sentence
"If the path change is accompanied by loss, such that the are no..."
^^^^
Replace "the" by "there".
7.3 Table, left column, last row
"Single Number SLS"
That stands for "Service Level Specification" (or was SLA meant)?
Regards,
Ruediger
PS: Recognising that I was lazy in the past, a few content related remarks
after the official message.
Section 4.1 of draft-ietf-ippm-delay-var-as states that
'An example selection function given in [RFC3393] is "Consecutive
Type-P packets within the specified interval." This is exactly the
function needed for IPDV.'
I'd be interested in learning whether Henk's and Matt's implementations
apply this definition or another one. The question goes to all other
implementiors too. The more natural selection function seems to be to
evaluate pairs of consecutively received packets ignoring their
sequence numbers. Draft-ietf-ippm-delay-var-as however works with an
IPDV definition assuming awareness of sequence numbers. I'd like to
learn whether there are any implementations following the IPDV
definition of draft-ietf-ippm-delay-var-as (see section 6.1).
The following statement reflects practical experience:
The implementation we work with only accounts for the absolute value
of IPDV.
IPDV then is pretty sensible to fast changing queue levels, which
you see during queue build up and prior to packet drops. It's a kind
of seismographic curve you see then.
Looking at the definition, PDV is less sensible to queue build ups.
A final remark, also with some practical background: I think, a
combination of PDV and IPDV is the most useful attempt. IPDV has merits
in detecting reroutings and queue build ups, PDV may be more helpful
in characterising a network during smooth operation. But having both
seems to be best.
--end of message---
-----Original Message-----
From: ippm-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Henk Uijterwaal
Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2008 10:39 AM
To: Henk Uijterwaal
Cc: IETF IPPM WG
Subject: Re: [ippm] WGLC for draft-ietf-ippm-delay-var-as.
Hi all,
> This message announces the WGLC for draft-ietf-ippm-delay-var-as-01
>
> The draft has been discussed extensively in this group and appears
> to have support and be stable. We would like to start a Working Group Last
> Call in order to move it forward.
>
> Please raise any remaining issues by October 6, 2008, 9:00 UTC.
This was yesterday, no issues were raised, so we'll move this draft forward.
Henk
>
> A URL for the draft is:
>
>
>
>
> and the tools team also has a great page here:
>
>
>
>
> Matt & Henk
>
>
--
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Henk Uijterwaal Email: henk.uijterwaal(at)ripe.net
RIPE Network Coordination Centre http://www.amsterdamned.org/~henk
P.O.Box 10096 Singel 258 Phone: +31.20.5354414
1001 EB Amsterdam 1016 AB Amsterdam Fax: +31.20.5354445
The Netherlands The Netherlands Mobile: +31.6.55861746
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Ceterum censeo Asplain esse delendam (Cato & Henk)
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From: "Geib, Ruediger"
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Henk,
the authors did a good job, content and document look pretty good. So I support
the document as is.
One minor comment on the presentation of contents:
Chapter 2.7 presents the points of interest first as a sequence
1...N of destination hosts and additionally
1...N as a set of hosts along a path taken by a packet.
My comment is about using "N" in both cases, may be one different letter not used
elsewhere in the document may be helpful ("D" or "O" or "H") to distinguish
both more clearly. The change may however affect the whole document, not just
the figures.
But I note that the presented specifications measure performance in three dimensions
("one to group", "along a path" and "in a sequence of time") and concentration
will be required while reading it anyway.
Regards,
Ruediger
Typos:
5.4.1 First sentence
"In an pure.." should be "In a pure..."
last sentence first section:
"..process; It determines.." should be ..process; it determines.."
8. page 27, upper text block, third last sentence
"..to define exactly how small the relative delay the online gaming requires."
Something like a "should be" misses between "delay" and "the".
page 28, first text block
"It can be easily prove that.." should read "proven".
and later
"Therefore, when define a 2-level statistic, there is no need to
specify in which procedure the calculation should follow."
maybe: "Therefore, when defining a 2-level statistic there is no
need to specify the order in which the calculation is executed."
Section 8.3, figure 5, last column
R1MD
R2MD
R2MD should be R3MD
9. last section, first sentence
"..need to minimize form of the results.." please add a "the"
"..need to minimize the form of the results.."
-----Original Message-----
From: ippm-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Henk Uijterwaal
Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 8:37 AM
To: IETF IPPM WG
Subject: [ippm] 2nd WGLC for
IPPM group,
This message announces a second WGLC for draft-ietf-ippm-multimetrics
The draft has been discussed extensively in this group and concensus
on the content was reached in the first WGLC. There were some issues
with the wording. These have been addressed in the -08 version of
the draft. We feel that it is good to have a second WGLC in order to
make sure that all comments have been properly included, before moving
the document forward.
Please raise any remaining issues by October 14, 2008, 9:00 UTC.
A URL for the draft is:
and the tools team also has a great page here:
Matt & Henk
--
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RIPE Network Coordination Centre http://www.amsterdamned.org/~henk
P.O.Box 10096 Singel 258 Phone: +31.20.5354414
1001 EB Amsterdam 1016 AB Amsterdam Fax: +31.20.5354445
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Ceterum censeo Asplain esse delendam (Cato & Henk)
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From ippm-bounces@ietf.org Thu Oct 9 02:05:47 2008
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Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2008 11:05:45 +0200
From: Benoit Claise
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Cc: henk@ripe.net, ippm@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [ippm] WGLC for draft-ietf-ippm-delay-var-as.
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Geib,
> Hello Henk,
>
> sorry for being late, I couldn't make it earlier.
>
> No objections to the draft as is (I'm aware that I had ample
> opportunity to object earlier).
>
> Typos:
>
> Section 4.2, last sentence of 2nd last textblock:
>
> "However, approach has limitations that are..."
> ^^^^
>
> Insert "this" or "the".
>
>
> Section 6.2.2, first sentence
>
> "If the path change is accompanied by loss, such that the are no..."
> ^^^^
> Replace "the" by "there".
>
> 7.3 Table, left column, last row
>
> "Single Number SLS"
>
> That stands for "Service Level Specification" (or was SLA meant)?
>
> Regards,
>
> Ruediger
>
>
>
> PS: Recognising that I was lazy in the past, a few content related remarks
> after the official message.
>
> Section 4.1 of draft-ietf-ippm-delay-var-as states that
> 'An example selection function given in [RFC3393] is "Consecutive
> Type-P packets within the specified interval." This is exactly the
> function needed for IPDV.'
>
> I'd be interested in learning whether Henk's and Matt's implementations
> apply this definition or another one. The question goes to all other
> implementiors too. The more natural selection function seems to be to
> evaluate pairs of consecutively received packets ignoring their
> sequence numbers. Draft-ietf-ippm-delay-var-as however works with an
> IPDV definition assuming awareness of sequence numbers. I'd like to
> learn whether there are any implementations following the IPDV
> definition of draft-ietf-ippm-delay-var-as (see section 6.1).
>
The Cisco IP SLA feature follows the IPDV definition
Regards, Benoit.
> The following statement reflects practical experience:
>
> The implementation we work with only accounts for the absolute value
> of IPDV.
>
> IPDV then is pretty sensible to fast changing queue levels, which
> you see during queue build up and prior to packet drops. It's a kind
> of seismographic curve you see then.
>
> Looking at the definition, PDV is less sensible to queue build ups.
>
> A final remark, also with some practical background: I think, a
> combination of PDV and IPDV is the most useful attempt. IPDV has merits
> in detecting reroutings and queue build ups, PDV may be more helpful
> in characterising a network during smooth operation. But having both
> seems to be best.
>
> --end of message---
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ippm-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Henk Uijterwaal
> Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2008 10:39 AM
> To: Henk Uijterwaal
> Cc: IETF IPPM WG
> Subject: Re: [ippm] WGLC for draft-ietf-ippm-delay-var-as.
>
> Hi all,
>
>
>> This message announces the WGLC for draft-ietf-ippm-delay-var-as-01
>>
>> The draft has been discussed extensively in this group and appears
>> to have support and be stable. We would like to start a Working Group Last
>> Call in order to move it forward.
>>
>> Please raise any remaining issues by October 6, 2008, 9:00 UTC.
>>
>
> This was yesterday, no issues were raised, so we'll move this draft forward.
>
> Henk
>
>
>
>> A URL for the draft is:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> and the tools team also has a great page here:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Matt & Henk
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
--------------090600070506020508070406
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Geib,
Hello Henk,
sorry for being late, I couldn't make it earlier.
No objections to the draft as is (I'm aware that I had ample
opportunity to object earlier).
Typos:
Section 4.2, last sentence of 2nd last textblock:
"However, approach has limitations that are..."
^^^^
Insert "this" or "the".
Section 6.2.2, first sentence
"If the path change is accompanied by loss, such that the are no..."
^^^^
Replace "the" by "there".
7.3 Table, left column, last row
"Single Number SLS"
That stands for "Service Level Specification" (or was SLA meant)?
Regards,
Ruediger
PS: Recognising that I was lazy in the past, a few content related remarks
after the official message.
Section 4.1 of draft-ietf-ippm-delay-var-as states that
'An example selection function given in [RFC3393] is "Consecutive
Type-P packets within the specified interval." This is exactly the
function needed for IPDV.'
I'd be interested in learning whether Henk's and Matt's implementations
apply this definition or another one. The question goes to all other
implementiors too. The more natural selection function seems to be to
evaluate pairs of consecutively received packets ignoring their
sequence numbers. Draft-ietf-ippm-delay-var-as however works with an
IPDV definition assuming awareness of sequence numbers. I'd like to
learn whether there are any implementations following the IPDV
definition of draft-ietf-ippm-delay-var-as (see section 6.1).
The Cisco IP SLA feature follows the IPDV definition
Regards, Benoit.
The following statement reflects practical experience:
The implementation we work with only accounts for the absolute value
of IPDV.
IPDV then is pretty sensible to fast changing queue levels, which
you see during queue build up and prior to packet drops. It's a kind
of seismographic curve you see then.
Looking at the definition, PDV is less sensible to queue build ups.
A final remark, also with some practical background: I think, a
combination of PDV and IPDV is the most useful attempt. IPDV has merits
in detecting reroutings and queue build ups, PDV may be more helpful
in characterising a network during smooth operation. But having both
seems to be best.
--end of message---
-----Original Message-----
From: ippm-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Henk Uijterwaal
Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2008 10:39 AM
To: Henk Uijterwaal
Cc: IETF IPPM WG
Subject: Re: [ippm] WGLC for draft-ietf-ippm-delay-var-as.
Hi all,
This message announces the WGLC for draft-ietf-ippm-delay-var-as-01
The draft has been discussed extensively in this group and appears
to have support and be stable. We would like to start a Working Group Last
Call in order to move it forward.
Please raise any remaining issues by October 6, 2008, 9:00 UTC.
This was yesterday, no issues were raised, so we'll move this draft forward.
Henk
A URL for the draft is:
<http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ippm-delay-var-as-01.txt>
and the tools team also has a great page here:
<http://tools.ietf.org/wg/ippm/draft-ietf-ippm-delay-var-as>
Matt & Henk
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To: Benoit Claise ,
"Geib, Ruediger"
From: Al Morton
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Subject: Re: [ippm] WGLC for draft-ietf-ippm-delay-var-as.
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At 05:05 AM 10/9/2008, Benoit Claise wrote:
>>Rudiger wrote:
>>I'd be interested in learning whether Henk's and Matt's implementations
>>apply this definition or another one. The question goes to all other
>>implementiors too. The more natural selection function seems to be to
>>evaluate pairs of consecutively received packets ignoring their
>>sequence numbers. Draft-ietf-ippm-delay-var-as however works with an
>>IPDV definition assuming awareness of sequence numbers. I'd like to
>>learn whether there are any implementations following the IPDV
>>definition of draft-ietf-ippm-delay-var-as (see section 6.1).
>>
>The Cisco IP SLA feature follows the IPDV definition
>
>Regards, Benoit.
Hi Ruediger,
First, thanks for finding a few typos!
The specific case of packet loss in section 6.1 is also
mentioned in section 4.1 of RFC 3393:
http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3393#section-4.1
(don't confuse the selection function with the
conditioned statistics described here, they are
different processes).
In my experience, selection functions are primarily applied
at the Source, and the RFC 3393 definitions refer to index numbers
(or source sequence numbers). A selection function like you describe
("pairs of consecutively received packets ignoring their
sequence numbers") is certainly possible, and it's important
to understand how different things can be when comparing
results from two different selection functions.
For example, some of your observations on re-routes may not hold for
the IPDV defined in the memo - lost packets and undefined pairs
are a key factor when trying to detect path changes with
"consecutive source packet" IPDV, as we explained.
The WIPM measurement system described in
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ippm-implement-02
(expired I-D, but I'd still like to see this published as an
Informational RFC, even if it's not a formal part of the
standards track progress of the original RFCs)
implemented both IPDV and PDV as described in the memo.
thanks again, and regards,
Al
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Hi Al,
[snipped larger parts]
[Al wrote]
For example, some of your observations on re-routes may not hold for
the IPDV defined in the memo - lost packets and undefined pairs
are a key factor when trying to detect path changes with
"consecutive source packet" IPDV, as we explained.
[Ruediger]
Yes, respecting loss is one way to detect a reroute. The approach
working with IPDV data only is described in
draft-ietf-ippm-delay-var-as for the loss less path change (6.2.1).
As soon as the IPDV measurement ignores losses, the method
described there can always be applied.
I don't think that an IPDV selection funtion based on pairs of
packets in the sequence as they arrive is hard to implement. I
further think, that this selection function has a couple of
advantages over one respecting sequence numbers (and with that
of course losses).
[Ruediger]
My impression is, if the aim is to learn the required dimensions of
de-jitter buffers a priori, PDV is the better choice. A network
operator interested in learning more about the status of his
network, may additionally use IPDV (with suitable selection and
reporting functions).
[Ruediger]
Yes, maybe I felt the selection function your draft describes to be
as strange as the you feel the one I describe to be...
Regards
Ruediger
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From ippm-bounces@ietf.org Fri Oct 10 02:48:54 2008
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Hi Ruediger,
> Section 4.1 of draft-ietf-ippm-delay-var-as states that
> 'An example selection function given in [RFC3393] is "Consecutive
> Type-P packets within the specified interval." This is exactly the
> function needed for IPDV.'
>
> I'd be interested in learning whether Henk's and Matt's implementations
> apply this definition or another one. The question goes to all other
> implementiors too. The more natural selection function seems to be to
> evaluate pairs of consecutively received packets ignoring their
> sequence numbers. Draft-ietf-ippm-delay-var-as however works with an
> IPDV definition assuming awareness of sequence numbers. I'd like to
> learn whether there are any implementations following the IPDV
> definition of draft-ietf-ippm-delay-var-as (see section 6.1).
>
We use IPDV.
Henk
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IPPM group,
Henk Uijterwaal wrote:
> This message announces a second WGLC for draft-ietf-ippm-multimetrics
>
> The draft has been discussed extensively in this group and concensus
> on the content was reached in the first WGLC. There were some issues
> with the wording. These have been addressed in the -08 version of
> the draft. We feel that it is good to have a second WGLC in order to
> make sure that all comments have been properly included, before moving
> the document forward.
>
> Please raise any remaining issues by October 14, 2008, 9:00 UTC.
>
> A URL for the draft is:
>
>
>
> and the tools team also has a great page here:
>
>
No comments were raised, except for a few typos, so we'll move this
document forward.
Henk
ps. Authors, can you do a version that fixes the typo's Ruediger found?
--
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Subject: [ippm] I-D Action:draft-ietf-ippm-multimetrics-09.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the IP Performance Metrics Working Group of the IETF.
Title : IP Performance Metrics (IPPM) for spatial and multicast
Author(s) : E. Stephan, et al.
Filename : draft-ietf-ippm-multimetrics-09.txt
Pages : 51
Date : 2008-10-15
The IETF has standardized IP Performance Metrics (IPPM) for measuring
end-to-end performance between two points. This memo defines two new
categories of metrics that extend the coverage to multiple
measurement points. It defines spatial metrics for measuring the
performance of segments of a source to destination path, and metrics
for measuring the performance between a source and many destinations
in multiparty communications (e.g., a multicast tree).Requirements
Language
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"SHOULD", "SHOULD NOT", "RECOMMENDED", "MAY", and "OPTIONAL" in this
document are to be interpreted as described in RFC 2119 [RFC2119].
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From ippm-bounces@ietf.org Fri Oct 17 00:51:05 2008
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IPPM group,
Please see below. If there is interest in an IPPM meeting, let us
know by the end of next week.
Matt & Henk
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: WG Interim Meeting Opportunity in January 2009
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 13:33:34 -0700 (PDT)
From: IETF Chair
To: Working Group Chairs
CC: chair@ietf.org
In our continuing effort to ensure that IETF WGs are getting enough
meeting time to progress their work, we are conducting another experiment.
Many WGs have found interim meetings an effective way to tackle thorny
technical issues, resolve contentious technical issues, accelerate
standards development, and provide traction for new work. As always, an
interim WG meeting is not a substitute for a regular session at the
traditional IETF meeting. Since some WG Chairs and ADs have found the
amount of time necessary to put together an interim meeting can be
excessive, we are trying to reduce the effort necessary to conduct an
interim meeting to determine whether reducing this burden will expedite
IETF standards development. To this end, the Secretariat will facilitate
a large interim meeting from 20-22 January 2009 in Malta. If you are
interested in participating in this experiment, please contact your Area
Director for approval. All face-to-face interim meetings require AD
approval, and this is no exception. The IETF Secretariat is putting
together a program with three full days and four tracks on each day. Each
WG interim meeting is expected to consume at least one full day on one of
the tracks.
ADs will schedule the sessions. A URL for the schedule will be announced
shortly. Once it is available, if you detect a scheduling conflict,
please raise the concern with your AD for resolution. Session time is
limited, and sessions will be allocated first come, first served.
The Secretariat will provide registration, food and beverage, audio
visual facilities, and on site registration support. VeriLAN will provide
network and audio streaming support. It is expected that the meeting fee
will be $375 for early registration and $475 for late registration.
The Internet Society is looking for meeting sponsors for this event.
Anyone interested please contact Drew Dvorshak .
Russ
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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RIPE Network Coordination Centre http://www.amsterdamned.org/~henk
P.O.Box 10096 Singel 258 Phone: +31.20.5354414
1001 EB Amsterdam 1016 AB Amsterdam Fax: +31.20.5354445
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Henk,
I won't participate in the SFO IETF. I still ow the IPPM WG a draft on metric testing, which I started to write. I'm not sure whether I will finish it in time for Minneapolis and I don't plan to go to Minneapolis too. So if there is sufficient interest in the topic, an interim in Malta may be an option to discuss it face to face.
Apart from that, if the WG wishes to be informed about my general thoughts on a possible metric validation, I'm happy to draft a few slides for the Minneapolis meeting. If my colleague Gerhard Hasslinger participates in Minneapolis, he should be able to present these.
To sum up my mail:
- I could participate in Malta, if interest in metric validation is sufficient - but I don't push for a meeting.
- I offer to draft a presentation on thoughts about metric validation for Minneapolis.
Regards,
Ruediger
-----Original Message-----
From: ippm-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ippm-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Henk Uijterwaal
Sent: Friday, October 17, 2008 9:52 AM
To: IETF IPPM WG
Subject: [ippm] [Fwd: WG Interim Meeting Opportunity in January 2009]
IPPM group,
Please see below. If there is interest in an IPPM meeting, let us
know by the end of next week.
Matt & Henk
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: WG Interim Meeting Opportunity in January 2009
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 13:33:34 -0700 (PDT)
From: IETF Chair
To: Working Group Chairs
CC: chair@ietf.org
In our continuing effort to ensure that IETF WGs are getting enough
meeting time to progress their work, we are conducting another experiment.
Many WGs have found interim meetings an effective way to tackle thorny
technical issues, resolve contentious technical issues, accelerate
standards development, and provide traction for new work. As always, an
interim WG meeting is not a substitute for a regular session at the
traditional IETF meeting. Since some WG Chairs and ADs have found the
amount of time necessary to put together an interim meeting can be
excessive, we are trying to reduce the effort necessary to conduct an
interim meeting to determine whether reducing this burden will expedite
IETF standards development. To this end, the Secretariat will facilitate
a large interim meeting from 20-22 January 2009 in Malta. If you are
interested in participating in this experiment, please contact your Area
Director for approval. All face-to-face interim meetings require AD
approval, and this is no exception. The IETF Secretariat is putting
together a program with three full days and four tracks on each day. Each
WG interim meeting is expected to consume at least one full day on one of
the tracks.
ADs will schedule the sessions. A URL for the schedule will be announced
shortly. Once it is available, if you detect a scheduling conflict,
please raise the concern with your AD for resolution. Session time is
limited, and sessions will be allocated first come, first served.
The Secretariat will provide registration, food and beverage, audio
visual facilities, and on site registration support. VeriLAN will provide
network and audio streaming support. It is expected that the meeting fee
will be $375 for early registration and $475 for late registration.
The Internet Society is looking for meeting sponsors for this event.
Anyone interested please contact Drew Dvorshak .
Russ
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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RIPE Network Coordination Centre http://www.amsterdamned.org/~henk
P.O.Box 10096 Singel 258 Phone: +31.20.5354414
1001 EB Amsterdam 1016 AB Amsterdam Fax: +31.20.5354445
The Netherlands The Netherlands Mobile: +31.6.55861746
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the IP Performance Metrics Working Group of the IETF.
Title : More Features for TWAMP
Author(s) : A. Morton, K. Hedayat
Filename : draft-ietf-ippm-more-twamp-00.txt
Pages : 9
Date : 2008-10-20
The IETF has completed its work on TWAMP - the Two-Way Active
Measurement Protocol. This memo describes a simple extension to
TWAMP, the option to use different security modes in the TWAMP-
Control and TWAMP-Test protocols.
A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
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Subject: Re: [ippm] [Fwd: WG Interim Meeting Opportunity in January 2009]
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Hi all,
> Please see below. If there is interest in an IPPM meeting, let us
> know by the end of next week.
So-far, there hasn't been any interest so unless this changes dramatically
in the next hours, then there won't be an IPPM meeting.
Henk
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Ceterum censeo Asplain esse delendam (Cato & Henk)
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From ippm-bounces@ietf.org Thu Oct 23 05:15:04 2008
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Subject: [ippm] I-D Action:draft-ietf-ippm-storetraceroutes-12.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the IP Performance Metrics Working Group of the IETF.
Title : Information Model and XML Data Model for Traceroute Measurements
Author(s) : S. Niccolini, et al.
Filename : draft-ietf-ippm-storetraceroutes-12.txt
Pages : 72
Date : 2008-10-23
This document describes a standard way to store the configuration and
the results of traceroute measurements. This document first of all
describes the terminology used in this document and the traceroute
tool itself; afterwards, the common information model is defined
dividing the information elements in two semantically separated
groups (configuration elements and results elements). Moreover an
additional element is defined to relate configuration elements and
results elements by means of a common unique identifier. On the
basis of the information model a data model based on XML is defined
to store the results of traceroute measurements.
A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ippm-storetraceroutes-12.txt
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From ippm-bounces@ietf.org Thu Oct 23 08:35:07 2008
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From: Lars Eggert
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Subject: Re: [ippm] I-D Action:draft-ietf-ippm-storetraceroutes-12.txt
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FYI, this version addresses all IESG comments and I've requested
publication.
Lars
On 2008-10-23, at 6:15, ext Internet-Drafts@ietf.org wrote:
> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
> directories.
> This draft is a work item of the IP Performance Metrics Working
> Group of the IETF.
>
>
> Title : Information Model and XML Data Model for
> Traceroute Measurements
> Author(s) : S. Niccolini, et al.
> Filename : draft-ietf-ippm-storetraceroutes-12.txt
> Pages : 72
> Date : 2008-10-23
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From ippm-bounces@ietf.org Sun Oct 26 22:00:04 2008
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Subject: [ippm] I-D Action:draft-ietf-ippm-twamp-reflect-octets-00.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the IP Performance Metrics Working Group of the IETF.
Title : TWAMP Reflect Octets Feature
Author(s) : A. Morton, L. Ciavattone
Filename : draft-ietf-ippm-twamp-reflect-octets-00.txt
Pages : 18
Date : 2008-10-26
The IETF has completed its work on the core specification of TWAMP -
the Two-Way Active Measurement Protocol. This memo describes a new
feature for TWAMP: an optional capability where the responder host
returns some of the command octets or padding octets to the
controller, and/or ensures that the same test packet sizes are used
in both directions.
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Subject: [ippm] I-D Action:draft-ietf-ippm-twamp-session-cntrl-00.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the IP Performance Metrics Working Group of the IETF.
Title : Individual Session Control Feature for TWAMP
Author(s) : A. Morton, M. Chiba
Filename : draft-ietf-ippm-twamp-session-cntrl-00.txt
Pages : 13
Date : 2008-10-27
The IETF has completed its work on the core specification of TWAMP -
the Two-Way Active Measurement Protocol. This memo describes a new
feature for TWAMP, that gives the controlling host the ability to
start and stop one or more individual test sessions using their
Session Identifiers. The base capability of the TWAMP protocol
requires all test sessions previously requested and accepted to start
and stop at the same time.
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