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----w7f7CWazC00jHv5r-- From akkar@doramail.com Sun Sep 04 21:32:44 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EC5qm-0001M8-BS; Sun, 04 Sep 2005 21:32:44 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA05592; Sun, 4 Sep 2005 21:32:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from f54237.nkfust.edu.tw ([163.18.54.237]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EC5tR-00067I-Hu; Sun, 04 Sep 2005 21:35:30 -0400 Received: from 7aHh04 ([10.40.5.0]) by 132.151.6.1 with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.751); Sun, 04 Sep 2005 18:36:02 -0800 Message-Id: <16415110516817.37274886@mecca> X-Mailer: Microsoft CDO for Windows 2000 Content-Class: urn:content-classes:message X-Symantec-Anti-Spam: PASS Date: Sun, 04 Sep 2005 18:36:02 -0800 To: jaime.hope@ietf.org, jana.mccormick@ietf.org, jarvis.bonilla@ietf.org, jeff.ayers@ietf.org, jjltcnsis-admin@ietf.org, jmunoz@ietf.org, juliek@ietf.org, jxknerouting-discussion-admin@ietf.org, kink-archive@ietf.org, kml@ietf.org, knrhqrddp-admin@ietf.org, kontaktlens@ietf.org, kvylxmanet-admin@ietf.org, l2tpext@ietf.org, l2tpext-admin@ietf.org, l2tpext-archive@ietf.org, l2tpext-web-archive@ietf.org, l2vpn@ietf.org, l2vpn-admin@ietf.org From: "Georgina Porter" Subject: Need a low mortage rate? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="=====================_08150888==.REL" X-Spam-Score: 3.6 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: b22590c27682ace61775ee7b453b40d3 --=====================_08150888==.REL Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_20979803==.ALT" --=====================_20979803==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable it colossus and housewares try downbeat some perfidy not aphid the westbound it blutwurst it counterflow the leonine see lexical ! actinide be hydra see shrunk , decelerate it's bahrein not accord it's albany but frontal be anode. --=====================_20979803==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 3D""

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G6mtanbhWjzwirUoSFCKqK8xg7Z0a6+W14sAmbW7iq4hBbGEm7doc4APSa5aeLacykjLpCgy l7Z2q3loq7mby7md67mfC3JLK7qjy7Oga7qni7r3gLets5IzqZNDWYmQR4Em2UJfSa3dmEld hzMNCLAHeU0CJE3AJ7f/ZrBm+Ie7G0AKmHcm5E26WDSvM7z9ZrJ044FzRK28iHuzJ5Xcl49D WLzPW73k6Bfuikll0yYbyL3Ry286BD2T17DbOErzIY3GO49QR3m7+ChQyeuRtWe98ne/udOR SKmEqztRl5tQQhx6kcExOFnAArWBApy6ESzBE0zBFWzBZkb6GazBG8zBSHvBHclCISzCQVAA ADs= --=====================_08150888==.REL-- From bergeson@doramail.com Mon Sep 05 13:27:12 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ECKkR-0002tf-WC; Mon, 05 Sep 2005 13:27:12 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA25908; Mon, 5 Sep 2005 13:27:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from d36-38-120.home1.cgocable.net ([24.36.38.120]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ECKnF-0003SO-J8; Mon, 05 Sep 2005 13:30:06 -0400 Received: from x9 (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by 132.151.6.1 with ESMTP (Mailtraq/2.7.0.0607) id RHRA1951QP18; Mon, 05 Sep 2005 10:30:37 -0800 Message-Id: <84195865508691.76340319@washy> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.5.5 04/07/2005 with nmh-1.1-RC7 X-Enigmail-Version: 0.92.0.0 X-Hops: 6 Date: Mon, 05 Sep 2005 10:30:37 -0800 To: jjltcnsis-admin@ietf.org From: "Patrica Reagan" Subject: Re-finance at todays super low rate Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="=====================_34540289==.REL" X-Spam-Score: 4.7 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 1676547e4f33b5e63227e9c02bd359e3 --=====================_34540289==.REL Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_96147770==.ALT" --=====================_96147770==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable be extemporaneous it engine but orthogonal but indecisive some thirty a burlesque but saucepan in toothbrush see honeymoon some scour may amanuensis may alley may downside a advice 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esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ED5M5-0002Dk-As for kink-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 07 Sep 2005 15:13:09 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA10198 for ; Wed, 7 Sep 2005 15:13:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j87J8epV096883; Wed, 7 Sep 2005 12:08:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-kink@mail.vpnc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j87J8edR096882; Wed, 7 Sep 2005 12:08:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-kink@mail.vpnc.org using -f Received: from biscayne-one-station.mit.edu (BISCAYNE-ONE-STATION.MIT.EDU [18.7.7.80]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j87J8d4c096874 for ; Wed, 7 Sep 2005 12:08:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from raeburn@MIT.EDU) Received: from outgoing.mit.edu (OUTGOING-AUTH.MIT.EDU [18.7.22.103]) by biscayne-one-station.mit.edu (8.12.4/8.9.2) with ESMTP id j87J8btN003761; Wed, 7 Sep 2005 15:08:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [18.18.1.160] (NOME-KING.MIT.EDU [18.18.1.160]) (authenticated bits=0) (User authenticated as raeburn@ATHENA.MIT.EDU) by outgoing.mit.edu (8.13.1/8.12.4) with ESMTP id j87J8WwG024583 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Wed, 7 Sep 2005 15:08:33 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v734) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Ken Raeburn Subject: kink-09 Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 15:08:29 -0400 To: ietf-kink@vpnc.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.734) X-Spam-Score: -1.052 X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.42 Sender: owner-ietf-kink@mail.vpnc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sorry this is so late, I've had some non-work disruptions going on lately. Name canonicalization: Section 4.2.1 says that the principal name that SHOULD be used for the service is kink/fqdn@REALM, with fqdn "obtained from some name services". (It also says, "but see the Security Considerations section"; that section does touch on the binding between principal names and SA selectors, but it's not at all clear that that's what this is referring to.) An insecure name service must not be consulted in determining the FQDN; otherwise, a spoofed DNS (or whatever) reply could tell the client, "that's an alias for server-1.black-hats.con", and the client would happily authenticate to that server. In the Kerberos working group, there's a draft in the works to address this problem, draft-ietf-krb-wg-kerberos-referrals-06.txt. However, there may be some less than wonderful interactions. For example, you make a request for a service name which may be an alias, and (if it's an alias in the realm of the KDC you're talking to, and if you requested canonicalization) you get back a ticket either for the correct service principal name, or (if the canonical name is not in the same realm as the alias) for a remote-realm TGS. But the current draft is a bit fuzzy in the user-to-user case. The AP-REQ MUST request mutual authentication. The principal name that the KINK service SHOULD use is "kink/fqdn@REALM", where "kink" is for the KINK IPsec service, "fqdn" is the fully qualified domain name of the service host, and "REALM" is the Kerberos realm of the service. A principal name is case sensitive, and "fqdn" part MUST be lower case as described in [KERBEROS]. This document does not specify how to generate the principal name; complete principal names are stored in local policy, hostnames are obtained from some name services, etc; but see the Security Considerations section. We've been considering some cases where aliases are entered in one realm, pointing to a principal in another realm, when there is no overlap between the administration of the two realms. The type of example I keep bringing up is a DNS CNAME record added for convenience at one site, e.g., "gftp" in the local domain points to ftp.gnu.org, but requires less typing. If you want to make Kerberos- authenticated connections to that host, either you need to canonicalize the hostname through secure DNS, which we can't just assume will happen, or the KDC needs to be able to tell the client the real realm and principal name to authenticate to. A key point in this example is that the software on ftp.gnu.org has *no knowledge* of the other name assigned by some random site. So there may be cases where kink/fqdn is not the real principal name used by the service. What if kink/foo.dom.ain@REALM is an alias for host/FOO$@REALM, or a little trickier, host/FOO$@REALM2? Non-PKINIT cases: Can we describe a use case or two that doesn't involve PKINIT but does do user-to-user authentication? They don't need to go into the document, but if we want to support them, we should make sure they don't have some ramifications we haven't allowed for. I've come up with some possibilities: 1) User walks up to a public workstation (hardware reasonably protected, software completely hackable) and boots it off a CD (bypassing the workstation's possibly-hacked software) which contains a NetBSD Live! (or Knoppix or whatever) image, including Kerberos and IPsec software. No secret key data here, but CA info and server names for the {company, university, secret government organization} are included in this customized version. The user types in "nikita@section1.gov" and a password, Kerberos tickets are acquired, and an IPsec session is established to the user's file/mail/ldap/ whatever server. 2) Some kind of multiuser variant of case #1, with different SAs for different users on the same client host, simultaneously. Gets into some of the channel binding stuff Nico Williams has been working on. Probably not something we need to dig into much, as long as KINK allows for multiple SAs. 3) Imagine two instances of case #2 (or #1), where users on the two systems want to communicate peer-to-peer, not via some central server. Now neither one has a kink/foo principal available. In this case, I think it's okay to assume that at least one of the users will have to type in the name of the other, or at least be prompted to select "accept". (Section 4.2.4 supports this.) Probably on both sides. 4) Case #3, but to make it worse, put name canonicalization in the picture, and the two users have exchanged NT-ENTERPRISE principal names alice@MS.COM and bob@MS.COM, rather than Alice_Jones@NTDEV.MS.COM and Robert_Smith@WORLD-DOMINATION-STRATEGIC- PLANNING.MS.COM, because the short names are what they log in with, use for email, etc. Can they establish an IPsec session between them, securely? Actually, this probably belongs on the krb-wg list; I'll bring it up there. I *think* the upshot of these is: - SHOULD for using "kink/fqdn" may be too strong. It's the name that should be started with (but canonicalization may change it) in the normal host-to-host case. When users are involved (or maybe services acting as users or clients), the users' principals would be the logical choice. - While canonicalization hasn't been published yet, the KINK draft should allow for it. In particular, when asking for a TGT for a particular principal, after we've tried non-u2u authentication and gotten referral data back and then been told that we have to do u2u, the canonical name is the one we should be asking for. I haven't figured out good wording yet that allows for canonicalization without mentioning it explicitly, but I don't think we want to wait for referrals to get published first. Relatively minor stuff: - Introduction: Therefore, public key operations (if any) are limited and are amortized over the lifetime of the initial authentication operation to the KDC. For example, a client may use a single public key exchange with the KDC to efficiently establish multiple SAs with many other servers in the realm of the KDC. I would argue that the "initial authentication operation to the KDC" is the AS exchange which typically lasts less than a second. The public key ops are amortized over the life of the acquired credentials. The reason is that since the keys are stored in the KDC, the number of principal keys is O(n) rather than O(n*m), where "n" is the number of clients and "m" is the number of servers. It would be O(n+m) instead of O(n); I'm not an expert on the IPsec world, but I wouldn't be so quick to assert that n always dwarfs m. Kerberos, like any internet protocol, does have its own security considerations. You can find them discussed in [KERBEROS]. That's security-considerations material, not introductory material. In fact, I think the security considerations section already talks about it. - Section 2: "KINK directly reuses Quick Mode payloads defined in the section 5.5 of [IKE], with some minor changes and omissions." Drop "the". - Section 3.6: One case that might be worth mentioning is when the user's tickets are going to expire at the end of the "hard lifetime by time" of the SA. In that case, unless there's some other reason (lifetime by byte count?), there's no purpose in attempting to rekey, because the new SA will have the same expiration time. (This sort of applies also in renewable-TGT or PKINIT or keytab cases when the KDC isn't available to issue a new TGT, but that could be seen as starting the rekey process and then failing.) In some environments, it may make sense to prompt the user to re-enter their password, but until the new tickets are actually acquired (or the byte count gets high enough), it makes no sense to continue. - Sections 4.2.1, 4.2.2: The descriptions of EPOCH use the phrase "across different restarts". Different from what? I think "across restarts" is better. - Section 11: "The KINK's use of Kerberos presents a couple of considerations." Drop "the". - Pages should end with a formfeed (control-L), not a caret and an "L". RFC Editor can fix that up, but if there's need for a -10 and it's not too hard (perhaps with post-processing), it'd be nice to fix it. From hager@amsuper.com Fri Sep 09 05:49:29 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EDfVh-00014n-02; Fri, 09 Sep 2005 05:49:29 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA20993; Fri, 9 Sep 2005 05:49:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from eu85-86-211-221.clientes.euskaltel.es ([85.86.211.221]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EDfZA-0004CJ-Id; Fri, 09 Sep 2005 05:53:09 -0400 Received: from 85.86.211.221 ([85.86.211.221]) by localhost.localdomain (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id H99bzOmC (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=YES check=NO) for ; Fri, 09 Sep 2005 02:45:12 -0800 X-BrightmailFiltered: true X-Brightmail-Tracker: CXLDQ== X-IronPort-AV: i="3.96,160,0216823860"; d="scan'285"; a="6509784:sNHT023914874" Message-Id: <6.0.2.97.0.09108266151272.63677427@snap.yahoo.com> X-Sender: hager@amsuper.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.0.03 Date: Fri, 09 Sep 2005 02:45:12 -0800 To: ipsec-bounces@ietf.org Cc: iptel@ietf.org, iptel-admin@ietf.org, ipv6@ietf.org, ipv6-admin@ietf.org, ipv6-bounces@ietf.org, irtf-chair@ietf.org, isis-update@ietf.org, isis-update-admin@ietf.org, isis-wg@ietf.org, isis-wg-admin@ietf.org, isms@ietf.org, kink-archive@ietf.org, l2tpext@ietf.org, l2tpext-admin@ietf.org From: "Saul Singleton" Subject: Low mortagge ratee approvall Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="=====================_RPTATT30479329.Exime" X-Spam-Score: 2.2 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 37af5f8fbf6f013c5b771388e24b09e7 --=====================_RPTATT30479329.Exime Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_RPTATT59515745.Exime" --=====================_RPTATT59515745.Exime Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit reciprocal is dupe singable churchgoer and crosshatch greenwood but torr bible a carthaginian hobble bonaventure, gallium deletion and hallucinate motor, gilchrist london embouchure try payne complacent but occur eavesdrop is cameramen ponchartrain enquire and rectangular retrofit but overture --=====================_RPTATT59515745.Exime Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

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j8D5uiJ9058463; Mon, 12 Sep 2005 22:56:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-kink@mail.vpnc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j8D5uick058462; Mon, 12 Sep 2005 22:56:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-kink@mail.vpnc.org using -f Received: from nasten.nanohz.org (220x218x5x242.ap220.ftth.ucom.ne.jp [220.218.5.242]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j8D5ugLf058456 for ; Mon, 12 Sep 2005 22:56:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kamada@nanohz.org) Received: from nasten.nanohz.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nasten.nanohz.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 728CB5 for ; Tue, 13 Sep 2005 14:56:41 +0900 (JST) Received: from mitana.nanohz.org ([2001:240:2:0:202:8aff:fefa:bec0]) by nasten.nanohz.org (smtpsugar 1.1) with ESMTPA id 2MXS0n; Tue, 13 Sep 2005 14:56:41 +0900 (JST) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 14:56:45 +0900 Message-ID: <20050913145645MH%kamada@nanohz.org> From: "KAMADA Ken'ichi" To: ietf-kink@vpnc.org Subject: Name canon/secure name service (Re: kink-09) In-Reply-To: References: User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.14.0 (Africa) SEMI/1.14.6 (Maruoka) FLIM/1.14.7 (=?ISO-8859-4?Q?Sanj=F2?=) APEL/10.6 Emacs/22.0.50 (i386-unknown-netbsdelf3.99.7) MULE/5.0 (SAKAKI) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI 1.14.6 - "Maruoka") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-ietf-kink@mail.vpnc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Thank you very much for the review. At Wed, 7 Sep 2005 15:08:29 -0400, Ken Raeburn wrote: > > Name canonicalization: > > Section 4.2.1 says that the principal name that SHOULD be used for > the service is kink/fqdn@REALM, with fqdn "obtained from some name > services". (It also says, "but see the Security Considerations > section"; that section does touch on the binding between principal > names and SA selectors, but it's not at all clear that that's what > this is referring to.) > > An insecure name service must not be consulted in determining the > FQDN; otherwise, a spoofed DNS (or whatever) reply could tell the > client, "that's an alias for server-1.black-hats.con", and the client > would happily authenticate to that server. Yes, "but see the Security Considerations section" is referring to the first paragraph of the section. - An insecure name service must not be consulted, without doubt. - For name canonicalization (CNAME resolution), DNSSEC should be "secure". - For IP address resolution (binding hostname and selector), DNSSEC may not always be enough. e.g., If somehost.good.example.com resolves to 10.0.0.1 and anotherhost.bad.example.com also resolves to 10.0.0.1, which do you believe? > In the Kerberos working group, there's a draft in the works to > address this problem, draft-ietf-krb-wg-kerberos-referrals-06.txt. > However, there may be some less than wonderful interactions. For > example, you make a request for a service name which may be an alias, > and (if it's an alias in the realm of the KDC you're talking to, and > if you requested canonicalization) you get back a ticket either for > the correct service principal name, or (if the canonical name is not > in the same realm as the alias) for a remote-realm TGS. But the > current draft is a bit fuzzy in the user-to-user case. > > The AP-REQ MUST request mutual authentication. The principal name > that the KINK service SHOULD use is "kink/fqdn@REALM", where "kink" > is for the KINK IPsec service, "fqdn" is the fully qualified domain > name of the service host, and "REALM" is the Kerberos realm of the > service. A principal name is case sensitive, and "fqdn" part > MUST be > lower case as described in [KERBEROS]. This document does not > specify how to generate the principal name; complete principal names > are stored in local policy, hostnames are obtained from some name > services, etc; but see the Security Considerations section. > > We've been considering some cases where aliases are entered in one > realm, pointing to a principal in another realm, when there is no > overlap between the administration of the two realms. The type of > example I keep bringing up is a DNS CNAME record added for > convenience at one site, e.g., "gftp" in the local domain points to > ftp.gnu.org, but requires less typing. If you want to make Kerberos- > authenticated connections to that host, either you need to > canonicalize the hostname through secure DNS, which we can't just > assume will happen, or the KDC needs to be able to tell the client > the real realm and principal name to authenticate to. A key point in > this example is that the software on ftp.gnu.org has *no knowledge* > of the other name assigned by some random site. > > So there may be cases where kink/fqdn is not the real principal name > used by the service. What if kink/foo.dom.ain@REALM is an alias for > host/FOO$@REALM, or a little trickier, host/FOO$@REALM2? You seems to have interpreted "obtained from some name services" as "canonicalizing a name". My intention was "getting an FQDN from an IP address"; of course this isn't referring insecure DNS reverse resolution. There was no intention to forbid names that are not beginning with "kink/". # BTW, how other protocols define their naming convention? # (e.g. "host/", "ftp/") > Non-PKINIT cases: > > Can we describe a use case or two that doesn't involve PKINIT but > does do user-to-user authentication? They don't need to go into the > document, but if we want to support them, we should make sure they > don't have some ramifications we haven't allowed for. > > I've come up with some possibilities: > > 1) User walks up to a public workstation (hardware reasonably > protected, software completely hackable) and boots it off a CD > (bypassing the workstation's possibly-hacked software) which contains > a NetBSD Live! (or Knoppix or whatever) image, including Kerberos and > IPsec software. No secret key data here, but CA info and server > names for the {company, university, secret government organization} > are included in this customized version. The user types in > "nikita@section1.gov" and a password, Kerberos tickets are acquired, > and an IPsec session is established to the user's file/mail/ldap/ > whatever server. > > 2) Some kind of multiuser variant of case #1, with different SAs for > different users on the same client host, simultaneously. Gets into > some of the channel binding stuff Nico Williams has been working on. > Probably not something we need to dig into much, as long as KINK > allows for multiple SAs. > > 3) Imagine two instances of case #2 (or #1), where users on the two > systems want to communicate peer-to-peer, not via some central > server. Now neither one has a kink/foo principal available. In this > case, I think it's okay to assume that at least one of the users will > have to type in the name of the other, or at least be prompted to > select "accept". (Section 4.2.4 supports this.) Probably on both > sides. > > 4) Case #3, but to make it worse, put name canonicalization in the > picture, and the two users have exchanged NT-ENTERPRISE principal > names alice@MS.COM and bob@MS.COM, rather than > Alice_Jones@NTDEV.MS.COM and Robert_Smith@WORLD-DOMINATION-STRATEGIC- > PLANNING.MS.COM, because the short names are what they log in with, > use for email, etc. Can they establish an IPsec session between > them, securely? Actually, this probably belongs on the krb-wg list; > I'll bring it up there. > > > I *think* the upshot of these is: > - SHOULD for using "kink/fqdn" may be too strong. It's the name > that should be started with (but canonicalization may change it) in > the normal host-to-host case. When users are involved (or maybe > services acting as users or clients), the users' principals would be > the logical choice. To meet above comments, how about this for section 4.2.1: This document does not specify how to generate the principal name. That is, complete principal names may be stored in local policy, FQDNs may be converted to principal names, IP addresses may be converted to principal names by secure name services, etc; but see the first paragraph of the Security Considerations section. If the peer's principal name for the KINK service is generated from an FQDN, the principal name, which the initiator starts from, will be "kink/fqdn@REALM"; where "kink" is a literal string for the KINK IPsec service, "fqdn" is the fully qualified domain name of the service host, and "REALM" is the Kerberos realm of the service. A principal name is case sensitive, and "fqdn" part MUST be lower case as described in [KERBEROS]. And the first paragraph of Security Consideration: The principal names are the identities of the KINK services, but the traffic protected by SAs are identified by DOI specific selectors (IP addresses, port numbers, etc). This may lead to a breakaway of SA-protected data from authentication. For example, if two different host claims that they have the same IP address, it may be impossible to predict which principal's key protect the data. Thus, an implementation must take care for the binding between principal names and the SA selectors. > - While canonicalization hasn't been published yet, the KINK draft > should allow for it. In particular, when asking for a TGT for a > particular principal, after we've tried non-u2u authentication and > gotten referral data back and then been told that we have to do u2u, > the canonical name is the one we should be asking for. I haven't > figured out good wording yet that allows for canonicalization without > mentioning it explicitly, but I don't think we want to wait for > referrals to get published first. Does anyone have any idea on this? 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------=_NextPart_000_40CE_1F627A89.B53D40CE-- From owner-ietf-kink@mail.vpnc.org Tue Sep 13 04:14:17 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EF5vk-0006LB-1m for kink-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 13 Sep 2005 04:14:16 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA09541 for ; Tue, 13 Sep 2005 04:14:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j8D8A0ci072146; Tue, 13 Sep 2005 01:10:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-kink@mail.vpnc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j8D8A05G072145; Tue, 13 Sep 2005 01:10:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-kink@mail.vpnc.org using -f Received: from biscayne-one-station.mit.edu (BISCAYNE-ONE-STATION.MIT.EDU [18.7.7.80]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j8D89wsT072137 for ; Tue, 13 Sep 2005 01:09:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from raeburn@MIT.EDU) Received: from outgoing.mit.edu (OUTGOING-AUTH.MIT.EDU [18.7.22.103]) by biscayne-one-station.mit.edu (8.12.4/8.9.2) with ESMTP id j8D89pSw023613; Tue, 13 Sep 2005 04:09:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [18.101.0.226] ([18.101.0.226]) (authenticated bits=0) (User authenticated as raeburn@ATHENA.MIT.EDU) by outgoing.mit.edu (8.13.1/8.12.4) with ESMTP id j8D89jO7024411 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Tue, 13 Sep 2005 04:09:48 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <20050913145645MH%kamada@nanohz.org> References: <20050913145645MH%kamada@nanohz.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v734) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <3C35304E-0AFE-4D06-846A-01E423D583D4@mit.edu> Cc: ietf-kink@vpnc.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Ken Raeburn Subject: Re: Name canon/secure name service (Re: kink-09) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 04:09:44 -0400 To: "KAMADA Ken'ichi" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.734) X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.42 Sender: owner-ietf-kink@mail.vpnc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sep 13, 2005, at 01:56, KAMADA Ken'ichi wrote: > - For IP address resolution (binding hostname and selector), > DNSSEC may not always be enough. > e.g., If somehost.good.example.com resolves to 10.0.0.1 and > anotherhost.bad.example.com also resolves to 10.0.0.1, > which do you believe? If you're doing host->address mapping, then DNSSEC for the domain you're querying should be fine. If you're doing address->host mapping, then the mappings in {good,bad}.example.com don't matter, what matters is DNSSEC protection for 1.0.0.10.in-addr.arpa. >> So there may be cases where kink/fqdn is not the real principal name >> used by the service. What if kink/foo.dom.ain@REALM is an alias for >> host/FOO$@REALM, or a little trickier, host/FOO$@REALM2? > > You seems to have interpreted "obtained from some name services" as > "canonicalizing a name". My intention was "getting an FQDN from an IP > address"; of course this isn't referring insecure DNS reverse > resolution. There was no intention to forbid names that are not > beginning with "kink/". Sorry if I was reading this incorrectly. > # BTW, how other protocols define their naming convention? > # (e.g. "host/", "ftp/") They do host/fqdn@REALM, but with referrals in place, it'll be okay if these names are just aliases. None of the current protocols (that I'm aware of) for these service names do user-to-user, so there's no request for a TGT using a principal name that the KDC wouldn't get the chance to alter. > To meet above comments, how about this for section 4.2.1: That looks pretty good. >> - While canonicalization hasn't been published yet, the KINK draft >> should allow for it. In particular, when asking for a TGT for a >> particular principal, after we've tried non-u2u authentication and >> gotten referral data back and then been told that we have to do u2u, >> the canonical name is the one we should be asking for. I haven't >> figured out good wording yet that allows for canonicalization without >> mentioning it explicitly, but I don't think we want to wait for >> referrals to get published first. >> > > Does anyone have any idea on this? Not yet. :-( It may be enough to use the text you suggested in 4.2.1 as the way of initially generating the principal name, and have something in the referrals draft describe how changes to the name by the KDC should be handled in cases like this... Ken From owner-ietf-kink@mail.vpnc.org Tue Sep 13 06:19:14 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EF7se-00016j-9V for kink-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 13 Sep 2005 06:19:14 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA13212 for ; Tue, 13 Sep 2005 06:18:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j8DADwT1086673; Tue, 13 Sep 2005 03:13:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-kink@mail.vpnc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j8DADwrv086672; Tue, 13 Sep 2005 03:13:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-kink@mail.vpnc.org using -f Received: from nasten.nanohz.org (220x218x5x242.ap220.ftth.ucom.ne.jp [220.218.5.242]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j8DADvnM086661 for ; Tue, 13 Sep 2005 03:13:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kamada@nanohz.org) Received: from nasten.nanohz.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nasten.nanohz.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65FE95 for ; Tue, 13 Sep 2005 19:13:56 +0900 (JST) Received: from mitana.nanohz.org ([2001:240:2:0:202:8aff:fefa:bec0]) by nasten.nanohz.org (smtpsugar 1.1) with ESMTPA id 0HAUqs; Tue, 13 Sep 2005 19:13:56 +0900 (JST) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 19:14:00 +0900 Message-ID: <20050913191400MV%kamada@nanohz.org> From: "KAMADA Ken'ichi" To: ietf-kink@vpnc.org Subject: Re: Name canon/secure name service (Re: kink-09) In-Reply-To: <3C35304E-0AFE-4D06-846A-01E423D583D4@mit.edu> References: <20050913145645MH%kamada@nanohz.org> <3C35304E-0AFE-4D06-846A-01E423D583D4@mit.edu> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.14.0 (Africa) SEMI/1.14.6 (Maruoka) FLIM/1.14.7 (=?ISO-8859-4?Q?Sanj=F2?=) APEL/10.6 Emacs/22.0.50 (i386-unknown-netbsdelf3.99.7) MULE/5.0 (SAKAKI) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI 1.14.6 - "Maruoka") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-ietf-kink@mail.vpnc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: At Tue, 13 Sep 2005 04:09:44 -0400, Ken Raeburn wrote: > > > - For IP address resolution (binding hostname and selector), > > DNSSEC may not always be enough. > > e.g., If somehost.good.example.com resolves to 10.0.0.1 and > > anotherhost.bad.example.com also resolves to 10.0.0.1, > > which do you believe? > > If you're doing host->address mapping, then DNSSEC for the domain > you're querying should be fine. If you're doing address->host > mapping, then the mappings in {good,bad}.example.com don't matter, > what matters is DNSSEC protection for 1.0.0.10.in-addr.arpa. host->address was in my mind. Suppose an environment where the granularity of SA or principal is hosts. Two users are on sharedhost.example.com, which has 10.0.0.9. They wanted to be protected by KINK and typed somehost.good.example.com and anotherhost.bad.example.com respectively. And if, both hostnames were resolved to 10.0.0.1... Then, what the KINK daemon on the sharedhost.example.com should do? Which key should be used to protect the SAs between 10.0.0.9 and 10.0.0.1? I don't think this is a KINK/Kerberos specific matter, though. > >> So there may be cases where kink/fqdn is not the real principal name > >> used by the service. What if kink/foo.dom.ain@REALM is an alias for > >> host/FOO$@REALM, or a little trickier, host/FOO$@REALM2? > > > > You seems to have interpreted "obtained from some name services" as > > "canonicalizing a name". My intention was "getting an FQDN from an IP > > address"; of course this isn't referring insecure DNS reverse > > resolution. There was no intention to forbid names that are not > > beginning with "kink/". > > Sorry if I was reading this incorrectly. No, that was a problem of my writing, sorry. -- KAMADA Ken'ichi From Ahern@asheville.com Tue Sep 13 13:38:01 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EFEjJ-0004Fs-DA for kink-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 13 Sep 2005 13:38:01 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA03285 for ; Tue, 13 Sep 2005 13:37:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 200217137050.user.veloxzone.com.br ([200.217.137.50] helo=x-stream.co.uk) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EFEnb-0008HS-26 for kink-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 13 Sep 2005 13:42:29 -0400 From: "Martin Donna" To: "Gingras Francois" Subject: Re[4]: Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 17:37:44 +0000 Message-ID: <139001c5b889$029536b3$54007977@x-stream.co.uk> X-SA-Do-Not-Rej: Yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_7A89_B53D40CE.1F627A89" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1441 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-Antivirus: avast! 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------=_NextPart_000_7A89_B53D40CE.1F627A89-- From owner-ietf-kink@mail.vpnc.org Tue Sep 13 14:09:47 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EFFDi-00082q-VS for kink-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 13 Sep 2005 14:09:47 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA04725 for ; Tue, 13 Sep 2005 14:09:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j8DI35wN030942; Tue, 13 Sep 2005 11:03:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-kink@mail.vpnc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j8DI35ks030941; Tue, 13 Sep 2005 11:03:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-kink@mail.vpnc.org using -f Received: from biscayne-one-station.mit.edu (BISCAYNE-ONE-STATION.MIT.EDU [18.7.7.80]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j8DI33Bh030934 for ; Tue, 13 Sep 2005 11:03:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from raeburn@MIT.EDU) Received: from outgoing.mit.edu (OUTGOING-AUTH.MIT.EDU [18.7.22.103]) by biscayne-one-station.mit.edu (8.12.4/8.9.2) with ESMTP id j8DI2xt4011164; Tue, 13 Sep 2005 14:02:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [18.101.0.226] ([18.101.0.226]) (authenticated bits=0) (User authenticated as raeburn@ATHENA.MIT.EDU) by outgoing.mit.edu (8.13.1/8.12.4) with ESMTP id j8DI2oOM007760 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Tue, 13 Sep 2005 14:02:52 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <20050913191400MV%kamada@nanohz.org> References: <20050913145645MH%kamada@nanohz.org> <3C35304E-0AFE-4D06-846A-01E423D583D4@mit.edu> <20050913191400MV%kamada@nanohz.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v734) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Cc: ietf-kink@vpnc.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Ken Raeburn Subject: Re: Name canon/secure name service (Re: kink-09) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 14:02:41 -0400 To: "KAMADA Ken'ichi" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.734) X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.42 Sender: owner-ietf-kink@mail.vpnc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sep 13, 2005, at 06:14, KAMADA Ken'ichi wrote: > host->address was in my mind. > Suppose an environment where the granularity of SA or principal > is hosts. > Two users are on sharedhost.example.com, which has 10.0.0.9. > They wanted to be protected by KINK and typed > somehost.good.example.com > and anotherhost.bad.example.com respectively. > And if, both hostnames were resolved to 10.0.0.1... > > Then, what the KINK daemon on the sharedhost.example.com should do? > Which key should be used to protect the SAs between 10.0.0.9 and > 10.0.0.1? Ah, I see. Interesting... I'm not sure what to do about this case. > I don't think this is a KINK/Kerberos specific matter, though. No, it isn't. How would a non-Kerberos IPsec deployment deal with such a case? Ken From owner-ietf-kink@mail.vpnc.org Tue Sep 13 21:27:40 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EFM3o-0005on-F6 for kink-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 13 Sep 2005 21:27:40 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA14482 for ; Tue, 13 Sep 2005 21:27:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j8E1OGZY071731; Tue, 13 Sep 2005 18:24:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-kink@mail.vpnc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j8E1OGWC071730; Tue, 13 Sep 2005 18:24:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-kink@mail.vpnc.org using -f Received: from nasten.nanohz.org (220x218x5x242.ap220.ftth.ucom.ne.jp [220.218.5.242]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j8E1OF7a071721 for ; Tue, 13 Sep 2005 18:24:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kamada@nanohz.org) Received: from nasten.nanohz.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nasten.nanohz.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA83D5 for ; Wed, 14 Sep 2005 10:24:13 +0900 (JST) Received: from mitana.nanohz.org ([2001:240:2:0:202:8aff:fefa:bec0]) by nasten.nanohz.org (smtpsugar 1.1) with ESMTPA id 3tA2qR; Wed, 14 Sep 2005 10:24:13 +0900 (JST) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 10:24:20 +0900 Message-ID: <20050914102420MN%kamada@nanohz.org> From: "KAMADA Ken'ichi" To: ietf-kink@vpnc.org Subject: Ticket and SA lifetime (Re: kink-09) In-Reply-To: References: User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.14.0 (Africa) SEMI/1.14.6 (Maruoka) FLIM/1.14.7 (=?ISO-8859-4?Q?Sanj=F2?=) APEL/10.6 Emacs/22.0.50 (i386-unknown-netbsdelf3.99.7) MULE/5.0 (SAKAKI) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI 1.14.6 - "Maruoka") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-ietf-kink@mail.vpnc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: At Wed, 7 Sep 2005 15:08:29 -0400, Ken Raeburn wrote: > > Relatively minor stuff: > - Section 3.6: One case that might be worth mentioning is when the > user's tickets are going to expire at the end of the "hard lifetime > by time" of the SA. In that case, unless there's some other reason > (lifetime by byte count?), there's no purpose in attempting to rekey, > because the new SA will have the same expiration time. (This sort of > applies also in renewable-TGT or PKINIT or keytab cases when the KDC > isn't available to issue a new TGT, but that could be seen as > starting the rekey process and then failing.) In some environments, > it may make sense to prompt the user to re-enter their password, but > until the new tickets are actually acquired (or the byte count gets > high enough), it makes no sense to continue. Do you assume that the SA lifetime is truncated to the ticket endtime? Is the lifetime of application session limited to the service ticket in usual Kerberized applications? I.e., if I (kerberized-)telnet to a remote host with a service ticket, what will happen when the ticket expires? Is the telnet session disconnected? # I can't find something on this in RFC 4120 or RFC 2942. Sidenote: at least when Key Exchange payloads are used, a ticket and an SA will have independent lifetimes. -- KAMADA Ken'ichi From owner-ietf-kink@mail.vpnc.org Tue Sep 13 21:59:20 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EFMYS-0006NF-0F for kink-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 13 Sep 2005 21:59:20 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA16083 for ; Tue, 13 Sep 2005 21:59:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j8E1vncp074439; Tue, 13 Sep 2005 18:57:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-kink@mail.vpnc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j8E1vnEs074438; Tue, 13 Sep 2005 18:57:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-kink@mail.vpnc.org using -f Received: from nasten.nanohz.org (220x218x5x242.ap220.ftth.ucom.ne.jp [220.218.5.242]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j8E1vmaN074432 for ; Tue, 13 Sep 2005 18:57:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kamada@nanohz.org) Received: from nasten.nanohz.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nasten.nanohz.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A9B85 for ; Wed, 14 Sep 2005 10:57:48 +0900 (JST) Received: from mitana.nanohz.org ([2001:240:2:0:202:8aff:fefa:bec0]) by nasten.nanohz.org (smtpsugar 1.1) with ESMTPA id 13zRkS; Wed, 14 Sep 2005 10:57:48 +0900 (JST) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 10:57:55 +0900 Message-ID: <20050914105755MW%kamada@nanohz.org> From: "KAMADA Ken'ichi" To: ietf-kink@vpnc.org Subject: Re: Name canon/secure name service (Re: kink-09) In-Reply-To: References: <20050913145645MH%kamada@nanohz.org> <3C35304E-0AFE-4D06-846A-01E423D583D4@mit.edu> <20050913191400MV%kamada@nanohz.org> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.14.0 (Africa) SEMI/1.14.6 (Maruoka) FLIM/1.14.7 (=?ISO-8859-4?Q?Sanj=F2?=) APEL/10.6 Emacs/22.0.50 (i386-unknown-netbsdelf3.99.7) MULE/5.0 (SAKAKI) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI 1.14.6 - "Maruoka") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-ietf-kink@mail.vpnc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: At Tue, 13 Sep 2005 14:02:41 -0400, Ken Raeburn wrote: > > > I don't think this is a KINK/Kerberos specific matter, though. > > No, it isn't. How would a non-Kerberos IPsec deployment deal with > such a case? In IKEv1 implementations for example, I believe they have the mapping between phase1 IDs and selectors in their (local) configuration. But I don't know how they manage about dynamic case, say road-worrier. -- KAMADA Ken'ichi From love@sanantoniovist.com Wed Sep 14 04:56:56 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EFT4a-00018q-FS for kink-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 14 Sep 2005 04:56:56 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA29096 for ; Wed, 14 Sep 2005 04:56:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from p54b1a680.dip0.t-ipconnect.de ([84.177.166.128] helo=localhost) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EFT98-0003eO-EZ for kink-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 14 Sep 2005 05:01:40 -0400 Date: Mi, 14 Sep 2005 10:56:40 +0100 From: "Fleisher" To: Subject: ONLINE MEDICATION? easy ! 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Wed, 14 Sep 2005 04:57:07 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA29102 for ; Wed, 14 Sep 2005 04:57:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from p54b1a680.dip0.t-ipconnect.de ([84.177.166.128] helo=localhost) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EFT9J-0003eh-OV for kink-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 14 Sep 2005 05:01:51 -0400 Date: Mi, 14 Sep 2005 10:56:56 +0100 From: "Freud" To: Subject: Primary source of OEM Office XP software Look no further ! 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------=_NextPart_000_B53D_40CE1F62.7A89B53D-- From owner-ietf-kink@mail.vpnc.org Fri Sep 23 10:53:57 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EIow1-0000gE-2n for kink-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 23 Sep 2005 10:53:57 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA19647 for ; Fri, 23 Sep 2005 10:53:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j8NEoDkC062767; Fri, 23 Sep 2005 07:50:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-kink@mail.vpnc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j8NEoDv0062766; Fri, 23 Sep 2005 07:50:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-kink@mail.vpnc.org using -f Received: from cliodev.pgp.com (me@CLIODEV.IHTFP.ORG [204.107.200.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j8NEoCvN062757 for ; Fri, 23 Sep 2005 07:50:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from warlord@MIT.EDU) Received: from cliodev.pgp.com (cliodev.pgp.com [127.0.0.1]) by cliodev.pgp.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j8NEo8Wg015450; Fri, 23 Sep 2005 10:50:08 -0400 Received: (from warlord@localhost) by cliodev.pgp.com (8.13.1/8.13.1/Submit) id j8NEo2Rv015447; Fri, 23 Sep 2005 10:50:02 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: cliodev.pgp.com: warlord set sender to warlord@MIT.EDU using -f From: Derek Atkins To: "KAMADA Ken'ichi" Cc: ietf-kink@vpnc.org Subject: Re: Name canon/secure name service (Re: kink-09) References: <20050913145645MH%kamada@nanohz.org> <3C35304E-0AFE-4D06-846A-01E423D583D4@mit.edu> <20050913191400MV%kamada@nanohz.org> Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 10:50:02 -0400 In-Reply-To: <20050913191400MV%kamada@nanohz.org> (KAMADA Ken'ichi's message of "Tue, 13 Sep 2005 19:14:00 +0900") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.110003 (No Gnus v0.3) Emacs/21.3 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-ietf-kink@mail.vpnc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: So have we come to consensus on how to handle these issues? If there was a misunderstanding from the reading of the text, then we should add some additional text to help ensure that the same misunderstanding does not occur again. We should rev the draft one last time with these clarifications and then I'll pass the draft up to the IESG. -derek "KAMADA Ken'ichi" writes: > At Tue, 13 Sep 2005 04:09:44 -0400, > Ken Raeburn wrote: >> >> > - For IP address resolution (binding hostname and selector), >> > DNSSEC may not always be enough. >> > e.g., If somehost.good.example.com resolves to 10.0.0.1 and >> > anotherhost.bad.example.com also resolves to 10.0.0.1, >> > which do you believe? >> >> If you're doing host->address mapping, then DNSSEC for the domain >> you're querying should be fine. If you're doing address->host >> mapping, then the mappings in {good,bad}.example.com don't matter, >> what matters is DNSSEC protection for 1.0.0.10.in-addr.arpa. > > host->address was in my mind. > Suppose an environment where the granularity of SA or principal > is hosts. > Two users are on sharedhost.example.com, which has 10.0.0.9. > They wanted to be protected by KINK and typed somehost.good.example.com > and anotherhost.bad.example.com respectively. > And if, both hostnames were resolved to 10.0.0.1... > > Then, what the KINK daemon on the sharedhost.example.com should do? > Which key should be used to protect the SAs between 10.0.0.9 and > 10.0.0.1? > > I don't think this is a KINK/Kerberos specific matter, though. > > >> >> So there may be cases where kink/fqdn is not the real principal name >> >> used by the service. What if kink/foo.dom.ain@REALM is an alias for >> >> host/FOO$@REALM, or a little trickier, host/FOO$@REALM2? >> > >> > You seems to have interpreted "obtained from some name services" as >> > "canonicalizing a name". My intention was "getting an FQDN from an IP >> > address"; of course this isn't referring insecure DNS reverse >> > resolution. There was no intention to forbid names that are not >> > beginning with "kink/". >> >> Sorry if I was reading this incorrectly. > > No, that was a problem of my writing, sorry. > > -- > KAMADA Ken'ichi > > > -- Derek Atkins 617-623-3745 derek@ihtfp.com www.ihtfp.com Computer and Internet Security Consultant From Godoy@newmail.net Sat Sep 24 07:32:25 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EJ8GX-0003d7-77 for kink-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 24 Sep 2005 07:32:25 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA01035 for ; Sat, 24 Sep 2005 07:32:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [80.51.229.26] (helo=80.51.229.26) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EJ8N9-0004Ih-TF for kink-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 24 Sep 2005 07:39:16 -0400 From: "Downey Michel" To: "Downing Mickey" Subject: Re[7]: Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 11:32:26 +0000 Message-ID: <4ef201c5c0fb$058cf350$9cfff911@80.51.229.26> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_1F62_7A89B53D.40CE1F62" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Scan-Module: SMTP[mks_vir 2005.04.01 (2004.10.07)] X-Spam-Score: 1.8 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 4adaf050708fb13be3316a9eee889caa This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_1F62_7A89B53D.40CE1F62 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable SPUR-m=20[Sperm=20pills]=20will=20bring=20you=20the=20joys=20of=20sex! 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----exF6RUUXirIKeEKZXPec-- From owner-ietf-kink@mail.vpnc.org Mon Sep 26 00:53:24 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EJkzS-0003OF-38 for kink-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 26 Sep 2005 00:53:23 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA20367 for ; Mon, 26 Sep 2005 00:53:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j8Q4c4Ge090671; Sun, 25 Sep 2005 21:38:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-kink@mail.vpnc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j8Q4c4Nm090670; Sun, 25 Sep 2005 21:38:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-kink@mail.vpnc.org using -f Received: from nasten.nanohz.org (220x218x5x242.ap220.ftth.ucom.ne.jp [220.218.5.242]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j8Q4c3Zl090663 for ; Sun, 25 Sep 2005 21:38:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kamada@nanohz.org) Received: from nasten.nanohz.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nasten.nanohz.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2BAD5E; Mon, 26 Sep 2005 13:37:59 +0900 (JST) Received: from mitana.nanohz.org ([2001:240:2:0:202:8aff:fefa:bec0]) by nasten.nanohz.org (smtpsugar 1.1) with ESMTPA id 1QwQFb; Mon, 26 Sep 2005 13:38:01 +0900 (JST) Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 13:38:02 +0900 Message-ID: <20050926133802LA%kamada@nanohz.org> From: "KAMADA Ken'ichi" To: derek@ihtfp.com, thomasm@cisco.com Cc: ietf-kink@vpnc.org Subject: pre-kink-10 User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.14.0 (Africa) SEMI/1.14.6 (Maruoka) FLIM/1.14.7 (=?ISO-8859-4?Q?Sanj=F2?=) APEL/10.6 Emacs/22.0.50 (i386-unknown-netbsdelf3.99.7) MULE/5.0 (SAKAKI) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI 1.14.6 - "Maruoka") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-ietf-kink@mail.vpnc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: At Fri, 23 Sep 2005 10:50:02 -0400, Derek Atkins wrote: > > So have we come to consensus on how to handle these issues? > If there was a misunderstanding from the reading of the text, > then we should add some additional text to help ensure that > the same misunderstanding does not occur again. The revised text in msgid:<20050913145645MH%kamada@nanohz.org> should address this, I think. I've also merged most of the comments from Ken. I've put the current version and an rfcdiff. One thing I'd like to hear from the WG (esp. Mike?): At Wed, 7 Sep 2005 15:08:29 -0400, Ken Raeburn wrote: > > Relatively minor stuff: > > - Introduction: > > Kerberos, like any internet protocol, does have > its own security considerations. You can find them discussed in > [KERBEROS]. > > That's security-considerations material, not introductory > material. In fact, I think the security considerations section > already talks about it. These sentences seem to have been added as a result of the previous IESG review, for a comment from Randy Bush. (See the first comment.) I feel he was not focusing on security vulnerabilities (as he gave scalability as an example). So, I'll replace that part with the following. Kerberos, like any internet protocol, does have drawbacks on certain environments. 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------=_NextPart_001_0001_280CF832.9C323B5E-- ------=_NextPart_000_0000_0884BB55.027A1D18-- From owner-ietf-kink@mail.vpnc.org Fri Sep 30 03:47:42 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ELFcL-00018W-UI for kink-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 30 Sep 2005 03:47:42 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA27401 for ; Fri, 30 Sep 2005 03:47:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j8U7huTV048273; Fri, 30 Sep 2005 00:43:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-kink@mail.vpnc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j8U7ht5O048272; Fri, 30 Sep 2005 00:43:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-kink@mail.vpnc.org using -f Received: from papa.tanu.org (kame195.kame.net [203.178.141.195]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j8U7hrCx048262 for ; Fri, 30 Sep 2005 00:43:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sakane@kame.net) Received: from localhost (cp.64translator.com [202.214.123.2]) by papa.tanu.org (8.12.9/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j8U7elH6083510; Fri, 30 Sep 2005 16:40:48 +0900 (JST) (envelope-from sakane@kame.net) To: derek@ihtfp.com Cc: thomasm@cisco.com, mat@cisco.com, ietf-kink@vpnc.org Subject: Re: pre-kink-10 In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 26 Sep 2005 13:38:02 +0900" <20050926133802LA%kamada@nanohz.org> References: <20050926133802LA%kamada@nanohz.org> X-Mailer: Cue version 0.8 (050427-2145/sakane) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Message-Id: <20050930164252S.sakane@kame.net> Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 16:42:52 +0900 From: Shoichi Sakane X-Dispatcher: imput version 20000228(IM140) Lines: 37 Sender: owner-ietf-kink@mail.vpnc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Hi, I think that this sentence should not be in the introduction, should be in the security consideration that Ken mentioned. On the other hand, there is a same sentence in the security consideration. So we might be able to just remove it. However the sentence was added after a IESG review. Thus I do not know we can remove it easily. Derek, could you decide whether it can remove or not ? > > Relatively minor stuff: > > > > - Introduction: > > > > Kerberos, like any internet protocol, does have > > its own security considerations. You can find them discussed in > > [KERBEROS]. > > > > That's security-considerations material, not introductory > > material. In fact, I think the security considerations section > > already talks about it. > > These sentences seem to have been added as a result of the > previous IESG review, for a comment from Randy Bush. > > (See the first comment.) > I feel he was not focusing on security vulnerabilities (as he gave > scalability as an example). > So, I'll replace that part with the following. > > Kerberos, like any internet protocol, does have drawbacks on certain > environments. You can find them discussed in [KERBEROS] and its > references. > > Do you have better sentences? From owner-ietf-kink@mail.vpnc.org Fri Sep 30 06:08:57 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ELHp2-0001ZT-Kc for kink-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 30 Sep 2005 06:08:57 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA02339 for ; Fri, 30 Sep 2005 06:08:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j8UA3nA1060698; Fri, 30 Sep 2005 03:03:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-kink@mail.vpnc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j8UA3nsq060693; Fri, 30 Sep 2005 03:03:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-kink@mail.vpnc.org using -f Received: from miyazawa.org (221x116x13x66.ap221.ftth.ucom.ne.jp [221.116.13.66]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j8UA3i4k060642 for ; Fri, 30 Sep 2005 03:03:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kazunori@miyazawa.org) Received: from [IPv6:2001:240:2:0:205:4eff:fe42:f9b3] ([2001:240:2:0:205:4eff:fe42:f9b3]) (AUTH: LOGIN kazunori, SSL: TLSv1/SSLv3,256bits,AES256-SHA) by miyazawa.org with esmtp; Fri, 30 Sep 2005 19:03:28 +0900 id 0000F90A.433D0D70.00003F68 Message-ID: <433D0D76.5060707@miyazawa.org> Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 19:03:34 +0900 From: Kazunori Miyazawa User-Agent: Debian Thunderbird 1.0.2 (X11/20050817) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "KAMADA Ken'ichi" CC: ietf-kink@vpnc.org Subject: Re: Ticket and SA lifetime (Re: kink-09) References: <20050914102420MN%kamada@nanohz.org> In-Reply-To: <20050914102420MN%kamada@nanohz.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-kink@mail.vpnc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit KAMADA Ken'ichi wrote: > At Wed, 7 Sep 2005 15:08:29 -0400, > Ken Raeburn wrote: > >>Relatively minor stuff: > > >>- Section 3.6: One case that might be worth mentioning is when the >>user's tickets are going to expire at the end of the "hard lifetime >>by time" of the SA. In that case, unless there's some other reason >>(lifetime by byte count?), there's no purpose in attempting to rekey, >>because the new SA will have the same expiration time. (This sort of >>applies also in renewable-TGT or PKINIT or keytab cases when the KDC >>isn't available to issue a new TGT, but that could be seen as >>starting the rekey process and then failing.) In some environments, >>it may make sense to prompt the user to re-enter their password, but >>until the new tickets are actually acquired (or the byte count gets >>high enough), it makes no sense to continue. > > > Do you assume that the SA lifetime is truncated to the ticket endtime? > > Is the lifetime of application session limited to the service ticket > in usual Kerberized applications? > I.e., if I (kerberized-)telnet to a remote host with a service ticket, > what will happen when the ticket expires? Is the telnet session > disconnected? > # I can't find something on this in RFC 4120 or RFC 2942. > > > Sidenote: at least when Key Exchange payloads are used, > a ticket and an SA will have independent lifetimes. > I think Mr. Raeburn might point that KINK should obtain new ticket before rekey if the ticket is going to expire. I accordingly thought we needed to change the 2nd paragraph in the section 3.6 to There are no special semantics for rekeying SAs in KINK. That is, in order to rekey an existing SA, the initiator must CREATE a new SA followed by either deleting the old SA with the DELETE flow or letting it timeout (If the initiator needs a new service ticket it should obtain it in advance). When identical flow selectors are available on different SAs, KINK implementations SHOULD choose the SA most recently created. It should be noted that KINK avoids most of the problems of [IKE] rekeying by having a reliable delete mechanism. But, I found in the section 3 KINK uses Kerberos as the authentication mechanism, therefore a KINK host needs to get a service ticket for each peer before actual key negotiations. This is basically a pure Kerberos exchange and the actual KDC traffic here is for illustrative purposes only. In practice, when a principal obtains various tickets is a subject of Kerberos and local policy consideration. I think when and how getting a servcice ticket is a local matter and it does not cause interoperability issues so that we don't need the change. -- Kazunori Miyazawa From owner-ietf-kink@mail.vpnc.org Fri Sep 30 11:25:29 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ELMlN-0003yo-IS for kink-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 30 Sep 2005 11:25:29 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA16535 for ; Fri, 30 Sep 2005 11:25:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j8UFLkgt090501; Fri, 30 Sep 2005 08:21:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-kink@mail.vpnc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j8UFLkAJ090500; Fri, 30 Sep 2005 08:21:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-kink@mail.vpnc.org using -f Received: from sj-iport-2.cisco.com (sj-iport-2-in.cisco.com [171.71.176.71]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j8UFLiAa090478 for ; Fri, 30 Sep 2005 08:21:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mat@cisco.com) Received: from sj-core-2.cisco.com ([171.71.177.254]) by sj-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 30 Sep 2005 08:21:39 -0700 Received: from imail.cisco.com (imail.cisco.com [128.107.200.91]) by sj-core-2.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id j8UFLVKC023483; Fri, 30 Sep 2005 08:21:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [216.102.208.12] (sjc-vpn6-260.cisco.com [10.21.121.4]) by imail.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j8UFXBOs016034; Fri, 30 Sep 2005 08:33:12 -0700 Message-ID: <433D580D.1010004@cisco.com> Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 08:21:49 -0700 From: Michael Thomas User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; rv:1.7.3) Gecko/20040913 Thunderbird/0.8 Mnenhy/0.7.2.0 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Kazunori Miyazawa CC: "KAMADA Ken'ichi" , ietf-kink@vpnc.org Subject: Re: Ticket and SA lifetime (Re: kink-09) References: <20050914102420MN%kamada@nanohz.org> <433D0D76.5060707@miyazawa.org> In-Reply-To: <433D0D76.5060707@miyazawa.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; l=2783; t=1128094393; x=1128526593; c=nowsp; s=nebraska; h=Subject:From:Date:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; d=cisco.com; i=mat@cisco.com; z=Subject:Re=3A=20Ticket=20and=20SA=20lifetime=20(Re=3A=20kink-09)| From:Michael=20Thomas=20| Date:Fri,=2030=20Sep=202005=2008=3A21=3A49=20-0700| Content-Type:text/plain=3B=20charset=3DISO-8859-1=3B=20format=3Dflowed| Content-Transfer-Encoding:7bit; b=XSIwqcW+H/lzdFivGVt53lzp+zff9UU6A2cKxC1Wr4lz0Ktfh6f/Oq1c+3qBrKARyKxLqbbr JvaZedt/SQmLW3Ucz1QIYzL5cnhNNyFE6+P+vuNUavJ+YzC6vy4ZMG6wff4GPjNboLpWPtqq8kz vRB1EG3yNDtHsTE8RUnrNE6U= Authentication-Results: imail.cisco.com; header.From=mat@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( message from cisco.com verified; ); Sender: owner-ietf-kink@mail.vpnc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What I'd appreciate here is some insight as to what other Kerberized applications do, especially ones that have their own session timers. If they all mimimize their lifetimes to the extant of the kerberos ticket lifetime, then that pretty much tells us we should too. If some are independant, then I think it's probably a local policy decision of the receiver assuming that the ISAKMP negotiation allows a longer proposed lifetime to be shortened by the receiver. If that's the case, then I don't think that the spec needs to recommend anything, and if it does it should at most be a SHOULD. Mike Kazunori Miyazawa wrote: > > KAMADA Ken'ichi wrote: > >> At Wed, 7 Sep 2005 15:08:29 -0400, >> Ken Raeburn wrote: >> >>> Relatively minor stuff: >> >> >> >>> - Section 3.6: One case that might be worth mentioning is when the >>> user's tickets are going to expire at the end of the "hard lifetime >>> by time" of the SA. In that case, unless there's some other reason >>> (lifetime by byte count?), there's no purpose in attempting to >>> rekey, because the new SA will have the same expiration time. (This >>> sort of applies also in renewable-TGT or PKINIT or keytab cases when >>> the KDC isn't available to issue a new TGT, but that could be seen >>> as starting the rekey process and then failing.) In some >>> environments, it may make sense to prompt the user to re-enter their >>> password, but until the new tickets are actually acquired (or the >>> byte count gets high enough), it makes no sense to continue. >> >> >> >> Do you assume that the SA lifetime is truncated to the ticket endtime? >> >> Is the lifetime of application session limited to the service ticket >> in usual Kerberized applications? >> I.e., if I (kerberized-)telnet to a remote host with a service ticket, >> what will happen when the ticket expires? Is the telnet session >> disconnected? >> # I can't find something on this in RFC 4120 or RFC 2942. >> >> >> Sidenote: at least when Key Exchange payloads are used, >> a ticket and an SA will have independent lifetimes. >> > > I think Mr. Raeburn might point that KINK should obtain new ticket > before rekey > if the ticket is going to expire. > > I accordingly thought we needed to change the 2nd paragraph in the > section 3.6 to > > There are no special semantics for rekeying SAs in KINK. That is, in > order to rekey an existing SA, the initiator must CREATE a new SA > followed by either deleting the old SA with the DELETE flow or > letting it timeout (If the initiator needs a new service ticket > it should obtain it in advance). When identical flow selectors are > available on different SAs, KINK implementations SHOULD choose the SA > most > recently created. It should be noted that KINK avoids most of the > problems of [IKE] rekeying by having a reliable delete mechanism. > > But, I found in the section 3 > > KINK uses Kerberos as the authentication mechanism, therefore a KINK > host needs to get a service ticket for each peer before actual key > negotiations. This is basically a pure Kerberos exchange and the > actual KDC traffic here is for illustrative purposes only. In > practice, when a principal obtains various tickets is a subject of > Kerberos and local policy consideration. > > I think when and how getting a servcice ticket is a local matter and > it does not cause interoperability issues so that we don't need the change. > From owner-ietf-kink@mail.vpnc.org Fri Sep 30 15:30:13 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ELQaD-00083h-F6 for kink-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 30 Sep 2005 15:30:13 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA01984 for ; Fri, 30 Sep 2005 15:30:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j8UJQv8n010633; Fri, 30 Sep 2005 12:26:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-kink@mail.vpnc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j8UJQvSD010632; Fri, 30 Sep 2005 12:26:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-kink@mail.vpnc.org using -f Received: from biscayne-one-station.mit.edu (BISCAYNE-ONE-STATION.MIT.EDU [18.7.7.80]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j8UJQuEM010626 for ; Fri, 30 Sep 2005 12:26:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from raeburn@MIT.EDU) Received: from outgoing.mit.edu (OUTGOING-AUTH.MIT.EDU [18.7.22.103]) by biscayne-one-station.mit.edu (8.12.4/8.9.2) with ESMTP id j8UJQpCm014511; Fri, 30 Sep 2005 15:26:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [18.101.0.226] ([18.101.0.226]) (authenticated bits=0) (User authenticated as raeburn@ATHENA.MIT.EDU) by outgoing.mit.edu (8.13.1/8.12.4) with ESMTP id j8UJQhBR024411 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Fri, 30 Sep 2005 15:26:45 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <20050914102420MN%kamada@nanohz.org> References: <20050914102420MN%kamada@nanohz.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v734) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <8D75C2AD-473A-46CE-9611-D2C74EAE4F1A@mit.edu> Cc: ietf-kink@vpnc.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Ken Raeburn Subject: Re: Ticket and SA lifetime (Re: kink-09) Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 15:02:31 -0400 To: "KAMADA Ken'ichi" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.734) X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.42 Sender: owner-ietf-kink@mail.vpnc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sep 13, 2005, at 21:24, KAMADA Ken'ichi wrote: > Do you assume that the SA lifetime is truncated to the ticket endtime? For some reason I was thinking it was, but now I see nothing in the draft to support that. > Is the lifetime of application session limited to the service ticket > in usual Kerberized applications? > I.e., if I (kerberized-)telnet to a remote host with a service ticket, > what will happen when the ticket expires? Is the telnet session > disconnected? > # I can't find something on this in RFC 4120 or RFC 2942. It depends on the application. Sometimes the session dies immediately, sometimes the session is kept open indefinitely. Sorry, I should've checked more closely.... Ken From owner-ietf-kink@mail.vpnc.org Fri Sep 30 15:46:55 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ELQqN-0004zq-9k for kink-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 30 Sep 2005 15:46:55 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA03400 for ; Fri, 30 Sep 2005 15:46:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j8UJi8cQ012052; Fri, 30 Sep 2005 12:44:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-kink@mail.vpnc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j8UJi81I012051; Fri, 30 Sep 2005 12:44:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-kink@mail.vpnc.org using -f Received: from sj-iport-5.cisco.com (sj-iport-5.cisco.com [171.68.10.87]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j8UJi73B012028 for ; Fri, 30 Sep 2005 12:44:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mat@cisco.com) Received: from sj-core-3.cisco.com ([171.68.223.137]) by sj-iport-5.cisco.com with ESMTP; 30 Sep 2005 12:44:02 -0700 X-IronPort-AV: i="3.97,162,1125903600"; d="scan'208"; a="216166466:sNHT24594742" Received: from imail.cisco.com (imail.cisco.com [128.107.200.91]) by sj-core-3.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id j8UJhxVt010324; Fri, 30 Sep 2005 12:43:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [171.71.193.231] (dhcp-171-71-193-231.cisco.com [171.71.193.231]) by imail.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j8UJtYEF018559; Fri, 30 Sep 2005 12:55:34 -0700 Message-ID: <433D958C.7030708@cisco.com> Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 12:44:12 -0700 From: Michael Thomas User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; rv:1.7.3) Gecko/20040913 Thunderbird/0.8 Mnenhy/0.7.2.0 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ken Raeburn CC: "KAMADA Ken'ichi" , ietf-kink@vpnc.org Subject: Re: Ticket and SA lifetime (Re: kink-09) References: <20050914102420MN%kamada@nanohz.org> <8D75C2AD-473A-46CE-9611-D2C74EAE4F1A@mit.edu> In-Reply-To: <8D75C2AD-473A-46CE-9611-D2C74EAE4F1A@mit.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; l=796; t=1128110134; x=1128542334; c=nowsp; s=nebraska; h=Subject:From:Date:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; d=cisco.com; i=mat@cisco.com; z=Subject:Re=3A=20Ticket=20and=20SA=20lifetime=20(Re=3A=20kink-09)| From:Michael=20Thomas=20| Date:Fri,=2030=20Sep=202005=2012=3A44=3A12=20-0700| Content-Type:text/plain=3B=20charset=3DISO-8859-1=3B=20format=3Dflowed| Content-Transfer-Encoding:7bit; b=ekHNA1luAW01LqI4TlVkG4U+hLWkHhXgsoT6tbjboJhnJX2nkzqdFj0mCu/heeLdBlnnFrLg ddyQJ2e2XebJeV1qkbRsWUwHiHukblikd+gkqRtDO6YXGUU4EuOqMbU7YmTt2mWnfBWzj37kJ4w MwQ0KEjBpkKyhclmi2KZJyQ0= Authentication-Results: imail.cisco.com; header.From=mat@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( message from cisco.com verified; ); Sender: owner-ietf-kink@mail.vpnc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ken Raeburn wrote: > > On Sep 13, 2005, at 21:24, KAMADA Ken'ichi wrote: > >> Do you assume that the SA lifetime is truncated to the ticket endtime? > > > For some reason I was thinking it was, but now I see nothing in the > draft to support that. > >> Is the lifetime of application session limited to the service ticket >> in usual Kerberized applications? >> I.e., if I (kerberized-)telnet to a remote host with a service ticket, >> what will happen when the ticket expires? Is the telnet session >> disconnected? >> # I can't find something on this in RFC 4120 or RFC 2942. > > > It depends on the application. Sometimes the session dies immediately, > sometimes the session is kept open indefinitely. > > Sorry, I should've checked more closely.... Then so long as the IKE phase 2 negotiations have the ability for the receiver to minimize the lifetime (which I think it does), then I don't really think there's much if anything that the spec needs to say about this. Mike From EloyKrueger@lolita-sex.co.uk Fri Sep 30 17:42:30 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ELSeE-0006FA-QP for kink-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 30 Sep 2005 17:42:30 -0400 Received: from ietf-mx.ietf.org (ietf-mx [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA19766 for ; Fri, 30 Sep 2005 17:42:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [201.19.102.113] (helo=132.151.6.1) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ELSlk-000781-9o for kink-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 30 Sep 2005 17:50:43 -0400 Received: from Xsh@localhost by ESo.int (8.11.6/8.11.6); Fri, 30 Sep 2005 18:25:22 -0400 Message-ID: From: "Francesca Hewitt" Reply-To: "Francesca Hewitt" To: kink-archive@ietf.org Subject: Windows XP Pro $49.95 MS 2003 Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 21:33:22 -0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.2730.2 X-Sender: EloyKrueger@lolita-sex.co.uk Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="--iepvGB83xnwDPvAJXlm8" X-Spam-Score: 4.7 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 8cb9b411340046bf4080a729180a0672 I9d ----iepvGB83xnwDPvAJXlm8 Content-Type: text/html; Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable y
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