From nobody Wed Aug 9 19:04:22 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netslices@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netslices@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 64DA6129A92 for ; Wed, 9 Aug 2017 19:04:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.22 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.22 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DSwnzatTGzGu for ; Wed, 9 Aug 2017 19:04:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0F4FD132518 for ; Wed, 9 Aug 2017 19:04:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml705-cah.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg02-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id DMH47839; Thu, 10 Aug 2017 02:04:17 +0000 (GMT) Received: from DGGEMI405-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.3.17.143) by lhreml705-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.46) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.301.0; Thu, 10 Aug 2017 03:04:16 +0100 Received: from DGGEMI509-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.2.103]) by dggemi405-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.3.17.143]) with mapi id 14.03.0301.000; Thu, 10 Aug 2017 10:04:10 +0800 From: "qiangli (D)" To: "netslices@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Reliability & Availability in NetSling Thread-Index: AdMRfN5eHIJHr9ZeRXW5IRXAHZDYnQ== Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2017 02:04:09 +0000 Message-ID: <06C389826B926F48A557D5DB5A54C4ED2A5743F7@dggemi509-mbs.china.huawei.com> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.130.163.138] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_06C389826B926F48A557D5DB5A54C4ED2A5743F7dggemi509mbschi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A020206.598BBF21.00E6, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=169.254.2.103, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: cf44b3a38bd0ff7effb5bdb6c32e8d45 Archived-At: Subject: [Netslices] Reliability & Availability in NetSling X-BeenThere: netslices@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "This list is intended for discussion and review of network slicing at IETF." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2017 02:04:21 -0000 --_000_06C389826B926F48A557D5DB5A54C4ED2A5743F7dggemi509mbschi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi All, I was confused when I was reading some NetSlicing related materials. It see= ms that "Reliability" supported by Netslicing refers to the probability tha= t a network slice could work stably, or other similar metrics. But, shouldn= 't this be the defination of "Availability"? Then what does reliability mea= n in NetSlicing? Best regards, Cristina QIANG --_000_06C389826B926F48A557D5DB5A54C4ED2A5743F7dggemi509mbschi_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi All,

 

I was confused when I was readi= ng some NetSlicing related materials. It seems that “Reliability̶= 1; supported by Netslicing refers to the probability that a network slice c= ould work stably, or other similar metrics. But, shouldn’t this be the defination of “Availability”? Then= what does reliability mean in NetSlicing?

 

 

Best regards,=

 

Cristina QIANG

 

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(using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail2.nict.go.jp (NICT Mail Spool Server2) with ESMTPS id E6B32C693; Thu, 10 Aug 2017 13:42:01 +0900 (JST) Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2017 13:42:00 +0900 From: Pedro Martinez-Julia To: GENG Liang Cc: "'qiangli (D)'" , "netslices@ietf.org" Message-ID: <20170810044200.GB1828@spectre> References: <06C389826B926F48A557D5DB5A54C4ED2A5743F7@dggemi509-mbs.china.huawei.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.8.3 (2017-05-23) X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.98.7 at zenith2 X-Virus-Status: Clean Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netslices] Reliability & Availability in NetSling X-BeenThere: netslices@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "This list is intended for discussion and review of network slicing at IETF." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2017 04:42:16 -0000 Dear all, I personally think it is better to use the industrial definitions but, being purist, we can find important differences between them. While availability is the probability for a system to work as expected in some period of time (99.999% of time), reliability is a broader term that refers to the different situations in which a system will be able to overcome without breaking. In some cases, the latter can incorporate the former, but not in all of them. For network slicing we can keep the definition commonly used by industry with the necessary details to make clear the aspects that differentiate them. I would keep "working as expected for some period of time" related to availability and "resistant to disparate situations" to reliability. Regards, Pedro On Thu, Aug 10, 2017 at 02:44:09AM +0000, GENG Liang wrote: > Hi Cristina, > > Interestingly we were discussing this confusion with few industrial partners recently. In telecommunication language we normally use "Reliability" to refer the probability a network is stably run (i.e. 99.999% of time). This is also regarded as network "Availability". However, "Reliability" in industrial verticals is more comprehensive - including not only network availability parameter but also mechanics, electricity etc. > > Personally I think, network slicing is still looking at network regime where I believe Reliability means the percentage of time a connection is available. But we you sell this concept to industrial verticals, they may think differently. > > ________________________________ > Liang GENG > China Mobile Research Institute > > From: qiangli (D) > Date: 2017-08-10 10:04 > To: netslices@ietf.org > Subject: [Netslices] Reliability & Availability in NetSling > Hi All, > > I was confused when I was reading some NetSlicing related materials. It seems that “Reliability” supported by Netslicing refers to the probability that a network slice could work stably, or other similar metrics. But, shouldn’t this be the defination of “Availability”? Then what does reliability mean in NetSlicing? > > > Best regards, > > Cristina QIANG > > _______________________________________________ > Netslices mailing list > Netslices@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netslices -- Pedro Martinez-Julia Network Science and Convergence Device Technology Laboratory Network System Research Institute National Institute of Information and Communications Technology (NICT) 4-2-1, Nukui-Kitamachi, Koganei, Tokyo 184-8795, Japan Email: pedro@nict.go.jp --------------------------------------------------------- *** Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem *** From nobody Thu Aug 10 02:57:56 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netslices@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netslices@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC326132679 for ; Thu, 10 Aug 2017 02:57:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.698 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.698 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5a_1vRxPyNea for ; Thu, 10 Aug 2017 02:57:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wm0-x234.google.com (mail-wm0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 37A2113209C for ; Thu, 10 Aug 2017 02:57:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wm0-x234.google.com with SMTP id k20so19821390wmg.0 for ; Thu, 10 Aug 2017 02:57:53 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language; bh=tkCx6BMkQo73wMGB8DN/WNlBYyiE7/HDGEbKXJaU43A=; b=ar6dPhISE8ftisBZ2yWygFKz4Md7pojyGkeDSMr7Sp6DEvzFwSwbHdnyf3PJxzD5ao i1UyizHwLBhRh/sqrgu24DT52jbYflSfwznda1HtcJKif7xX/mJuZ5GJzzygAlWMydiz 2v2t6a6Y6WFOM2VnZvZuPIZU1zQDhslQfh9de/006oSflLbslBQDTsye2x6fckrpsLVf /INxFF999JryO8J4/cqsqXkCROEsQzTlRRb79omvsaQH7YVx56kMtN8eqagDDU6CyTvJ HpmuE0dl7tasKSEcVIbrZGCP9I7tQW4HmxcDW1SyjjOeiAVlc9JuLQUXwp9+HmFb13ie haAA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language; bh=tkCx6BMkQo73wMGB8DN/WNlBYyiE7/HDGEbKXJaU43A=; b=iaysdHlhFTb6PCFV6nIAOAA1IlpLo+mJU3YLWnCaJbox1Xc3Cwt+FP7kOSW8QGsvuM 13Urk8ztlX2VEQrtfb/vXqTHWZlaKQRvDXst2tY5NcAYNWeL8ugs5V6wyiij9xyvE72G JK+I5/LScLEpWOzsI7ON0R+y7jZtoyS10dt0wW5hC5Pnxyq1G3lO9XzFvT67L26Xs9Fv 5t8TgOEhcA1KoiXOBH/KmUml0YYBTBgyRU84hjf0+JHX6bPI0PrEzojw7uqWgUT79wFN JO30ImkMUGFVyi/HS/uLN8t9UGmCV2UkEV8FD2GP6HNiFfLLsjUTiELEMS1qq+meNE4M qWpg== X-Gm-Message-State: AHYfb5jqCom0H5U4XFHTShn3Ussj18ltgECplsMRPHmXvMOcQp6oc3U/ X+y3ap5l9+WgA61LY3M= X-Received: by 10.28.178.75 with SMTP id b72mr6795979wmf.55.1502359071445; Thu, 10 Aug 2017 02:57:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.2.126] (host213-123-124-182.in-addr.btopenworld.com. [213.123.124.182]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id m189sm28819wmb.9.2017.08.10.02.57.50 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 10 Aug 2017 02:57:50 -0700 (PDT) To: netslices@ietf.org References: <06C389826B926F48A557D5DB5A54C4ED2A5743F7@dggemi509-mbs.china.huawei.com> <20170810044200.GB1828@spectre> From: Stewart Bryant Message-ID: <17a7e36c-21c7-93ef-8058-573019280dfc@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2017 10:57:47 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.2.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20170810044200.GB1828@spectre> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------9379BB7DE6D355342DCC149D" Content-Language: en-GB Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netslices] Reliability & Availability in NetSling X-BeenThere: netslices@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "This list is intended for discussion and review of network slicing at IETF." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2017 09:57:56 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------9379BB7DE6D355342DCC149D Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In general at IETF we associate reliable with the probability of packet delivery, and a reliable transport protocol is one that retries (at a cost of delay) until the packet is delivered or other factors intervene. Availability tends to refer to the ability of the network to receive packets for attempted delivery. I looked for a formal definition in IPPM which is the WG that is concerned with measuring such things but could not find a definition. From the ITU we can find: *Term*:availability (performance) *Definition*:The ability of an item to be in a state to perform a required function under given conditions at a given instant of time or over a given time interval, assuming that the required external resources are provided. NOTE 1 – This ability depends on the combined aspects of the reliability performance, the maintainability performance and the maintenance support performance. NOTE 2 – Required external resources, other than maintenance resources do not affect the availability performance of the item. *Term*:reliability (performance) *Definition*:The ability of an item to perform a required function under given conditions for a given time interval. NOTE 1 – It is generally assumed that the item is in a state to perform this required function at the beginning of the time interval. NOTE 2 – Generally, reliability performance is quantified using appropriate measures. In some applications, these measures include an expression of reliability performance as a probability, which is also called reliability. or *Term*:reliability characteristic *Definition*:The Mean Time Between Failures (MTBF) to maintain a defined QOS requirement. - Stewart On 10/08/2017 05:42, Pedro Martinez-Julia wrote: > Dear all, > > I personally think it is better to use the industrial definitions but, > being purist, we can find important differences between them. While > availability is the probability for a system to work as expected in some > period of time (99.999% of time), reliability is a broader term that > refers to the different situations in which a system will be able to > overcome without breaking. In some cases, the latter can incorporate the > former, but not in all of them. > > For network slicing we can keep the definition commonly used by industry > with the necessary details to make clear the aspects that differentiate > them. I would keep "working as expected for some period of time" related > to availability and "resistant to disparate situations" to reliability. > > Regards, > Pedro > > > On Thu, Aug 10, 2017 at 02:44:09AM +0000, GENG Liang wrote: >> Hi Cristina, >> >> Interestingly we were discussing this confusion with few industrial partners recently. In telecommunication language we normally use "Reliability" to refer the probability a network is stably run (i.e. 99.999% of time). This is also regarded as network "Availability". However, "Reliability" in industrial verticals is more comprehensive - including not only network availability parameter but also mechanics, electricity etc. >> >> Personally I think, network slicing is still looking at network regime where I believe Reliability means the percentage of time a connection is available. But we you sell this concept to industrial verticals, they may think differently. >> >> ________________________________ >> Liang GENG >> China Mobile Research Institute >> >> From: qiangli (D) >> Date: 2017-08-10 10:04 >> To: netslices@ietf.org >> Subject: [Netslices] Reliability & Availability in NetSling >> Hi All, >> >> I was confused when I was reading some NetSlicing related materials. It seems that “Reliability” supported by Netslicing refers to the probability that a network slice could work stably, or other similar metrics. But, shouldn’t this be the defination of “Availability”? Then what does reliability mean in NetSlicing? >> >> >> Best regards, >> >> Cristina QIANG >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Netslices mailing list >> Netslices@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netslices > --------------9379BB7DE6D355342DCC149D Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
In general at IETF we associate reliable with the probability of packet delivery, and a reliable transport protocol is one that retries (at a cost of delay) until the packet is delivered or other factors intervene. Availability tends to refer to the ability of the network to receive packets for attempted delivery.

I looked for a formal definition in IPPM which is the WG that is concerned with measuring such things but could not find a definition.

From the ITU we can find:

Term : availability (performance)
Definition : The ability of an item to be in a state to perform a required function under given conditions at a given instant of time or over a given time interval, assuming that the required external resources are provided.
NOTE 1 – This ability depends on the combined aspects of the reliability performance, the maintainability performance and the maintenance support performance. 
NOTE 2 – Required external resources, other than maintenance resources do not affect the availability performance of the item.


Term : reliability (performance)
Definition : The ability of an item to perform a required function under given conditions for a given time interval.
NOTE 1 – It is generally assumed that the item is in a state to perform this required function at the beginning of the time interval.
NOTE 2 – Generally, reliability performance is quantified using appropriate measures. In some applications, these measures include an expression of reliability performance as a probability, which is also called reliability.

or
Term : reliability characteristic
Definition : The Mean Time Between Failures (MTBF) to maintain a defined QOS requirement.

- Stewart

On 10/08/2017 05:42, Pedro Martinez-Julia wrote:
Dear all,

I personally think it is better to use the industrial definitions but,
being purist, we can find important differences between them. While
availability is the probability for a system to work as expected in some
period of time (99.999% of time), reliability is a broader term that
refers to the different situations in which a system will be able to
overcome without breaking. In some cases, the latter can incorporate the
former, but not in all of them.

For network slicing we can keep the definition commonly used by industry
with the necessary details to make clear the aspects that differentiate
them. I would keep "working as expected for some period of time" related
to availability and "resistant to disparate situations" to reliability.

Regards,
Pedro


On Thu, Aug 10, 2017 at 02:44:09AM +0000, GENG Liang wrote:
Hi Cristina,

Interestingly we were discussing this confusion with few industrial partners recently. In telecommunication language we normally use "Reliability" to refer the probability a network is stably run (i.e. 99.999% of time). This is also regarded as network "Availability". However, "Reliability" in industrial verticals is more comprehensive - including not only network availability parameter but also mechanics, electricity etc.

Personally I think, network slicing is still looking at network regime where I believe Reliability means the percentage of time a connection is available. But we you sell this concept to industrial verticals, they may think differently.

________________________________
Liang GENG
China Mobile Research Institute

From: qiangli (D)<mailto:qiangli3@huawei.com>
Date: 2017-08-10 10:04
To: netslices@ietf.org<mailto:netslices@ietf.org>
Subject: [Netslices] Reliability & Availability in NetSling
Hi All,

I was confused when I was reading some NetSlicing related materials. It seems that “Reliability” supported by Netslicing refers to the probability that a network slice could work stably, or other similar metrics. But, shouldn’t this be the defination of “Availability”? Then what does reliability mean in NetSlicing?


Best regards,

Cristina QIANG


      
_______________________________________________
Netslices mailing list
Netslices@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netslices


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Fri, 11 Aug 2017 01:26:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.2.126] (host213-123-124-182.in-addr.btopenworld.com. [213.123.124.182]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 195sm737039wmv.25.2017.08.11.01.26.20 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 11 Aug 2017 01:26:21 -0700 (PDT) To: "qiangli (D)" , "netslices@ietf.org" References: <06C389826B926F48A557D5DB5A54C4ED2A5743F7@dggemi509-mbs.china.huawei.com> <20170810044200.GB1828@spectre> <17a7e36c-21c7-93ef-8058-573019280dfc@gmail.com> <06C389826B926F48A557D5DB5A54C4ED2A5745E2@dggemi509-mbs.china.huawei.com> From: Stewart Bryant Message-ID: Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2017 09:26:17 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.2.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <06C389826B926F48A557D5DB5A54C4ED2A5745E2@dggemi509-mbs.china.huawei.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------76AC44FF402B199D3A72C865" Content-Language: en-GB Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netslices] Reliability & Availability in NetSling X-BeenThere: netslices@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "This list is intended for discussion and review of network slicing at IETF." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2017 08:26:27 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------76AC44FF402B199D3A72C865 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From a tenant's perspective, which arguably is the most important perspective the key characteristics of interest is surely "The Mean Time Between Failures (MTBF) to maintain a defined QOS requirement." together with the duration of those periods. With that information you can the viability of your application over the slice, and the impact on your business. - Stewart On 11/08/2017 08:47, qiangli (D) wrote: > > Hi All, > > The phrase “working as expected” inspired me. For a network slice, > what people expect is not only the stable working probability/time, > but also the guaranteed SLA. > > Try to consider from tenant’s perspective, I would be very concerned > about how much the promised SLA could really be achieved. I am not > sure which one (availability/reliability) this concept should belong > to according to ITU’s definitions. > > Best regards, > > Cristina QIANG > > *From:*Netslices [mailto:netslices-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of > *Stewart Bryant > *Sent:* Thursday, August 10, 2017 5:58 PM > *To:* netslices@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [Netslices] Reliability & Availability in NetSling > > > In general at IETF we associate reliable with the probability of > packet delivery, and a reliable transport protocol is one that retries > (at a cost of delay) until the packet is delivered or other factors > intervene. Availability tends to refer to the ability of the network > to receive packets for attempted delivery. > > I looked for a formal definition in IPPM which is the WG that is > concerned with measuring such things but could not find a definition. > > From the ITU we can find: > > *Term* : availability (performance) > > *Definition* : The ability of an item to be in a state to perform a > required function under given conditions at a given instant of time or > over a given time interval, assuming that the required external > resources are provided. > NOTE 1 – This ability depends on the combined aspects of the > reliability performance, the maintainability performance and the > maintenance support performance. > NOTE 2 – Required external resources, other than maintenance resources > do not affect the availability performance of the item. > > *Term* : reliability (performance) > > *Definition* : The ability of an item to perform a required function > under given conditions for a given time interval. > NOTE 1 – It is generally assumed that the item is in a state to > perform this required function at the beginning of the time interval. > NOTE 2 – Generally, reliability performance is quantified using > appropriate measures. In some applications, these measures include an > expression of reliability performance as a probability, which is also > called reliability. > > > or > > *Term* : reliability characteristic > > *Definition* : The Mean Time Between Failures (MTBF) to maintain a > defined QOS requirement. > > > - Stewart > > On 10/08/2017 05:42, Pedro Martinez-Julia wrote: > > Dear all, > > I personally think it is better to use the industrial definitions but, > > being purist, we can find important differences between them. While > > availability is the probability for a system to work as expected > in some > > period of time (99.999% of time), reliability is a broader term that > > refers to the different situations in which a system will be able to > > overcome without breaking. In some cases, the latter can > incorporate the > > former, but not in all of them. > > For network slicing we can keep the definition commonly used by > industry > > with the necessary details to make clear the aspects that > differentiate > > them. I would keep "working as expected for some period of time" > related > > to availability and "resistant to disparate situations" to > reliability. > > Regards, > > Pedro > > On Thu, Aug 10, 2017 at 02:44:09AM +0000, GENG Liang wrote: > > Hi Cristina, > > Interestingly we were discussing this confusion with few > industrial partners recently. In telecommunication language we > normally use "Reliability" to refer the probability a network > is stably run (i.e. 99.999% of time). This is also regarded as > network "Availability". However, "Reliability" in industrial > verticals is more comprehensive - including not only network > availability parameter but also mechanics, electricity etc. > > Personally I think, network slicing is still looking at > network regime where I believe Reliability means the > percentage of time a connection is available. But we you sell > this concept to industrial verticals, they may think differently. > > ________________________________ > > Liang GENG > > China Mobile Research Institute > > From: qiangli (D) > > > Date: 2017-08-10 10:04 > > To: netslices@ietf.org > > > > Subject: [Netslices] Reliability & Availability in NetSling > > Hi All, > > I was confused when I was reading some NetSlicing related > materials. It seems that “Reliability” supported by Netslicing > refers to the probability that a network slice could work > stably, or other similar metrics. But, shouldn’t this be the > defination of “Availability”? Then what does reliability mean > in NetSlicing? > > Best regards, > > Cristina QIANG > > _______________________________________________ > > Netslices mailing list > > Netslices@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netslices > --------------76AC44FF402B199D3A72C865 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit


From a tenant's perspective, which arguably is the most important perspective the key characteristics of interest is  surely "The Mean Time Between Failures (MTBF) to maintain a defined QOS requirement." together with the duration of those periods.

With that information you can the viability of your application over the slice, and the impact on your business.

- Stewart


On 11/08/2017 08:47, qiangli (D) wrote:

Hi All,

 

The phrase “working as expected” inspired me. For a network slice, what people expect is not only the stable working probability/time, but also the guaranteed SLA.

 

Try to consider from tenant’s perspective, I would be very concerned about how much the promised SLA could really be achieved. I am not sure which one (availability/reliability) this concept should belong to according to ITU’s definitions.

 

 

Best regards,

 

Cristina QIANG

 

From: Netslices [mailto:netslices-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Stewart Bryant
Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2017 5:58 PM
To: netslices@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Netslices] Reliability & Availability in NetSling

 


In general at IETF we associate reliable with the probability of packet delivery, and a reliable transport protocol is one that retries (at a cost of delay) until the packet is delivered or other factors intervene. Availability tends to refer to the ability of the network to receive packets for attempted delivery.

I looked for a formal definition in IPPM which is the WG that is concerned with measuring such things but could not find a definition.

From the ITU we can find:

Term : availability (performance)

Definition : The ability of an item to be in a state to perform a required function under given conditions at a given instant of time or over a given time interval, assuming that the required external resources are provided.
NOTE 1 – This ability depends on the combined aspects of the reliability performance, the maintainability performance and the maintenance support performance. 
NOTE 2 – Required external resources, other than maintenance resources do not affect the availability performance of the item.

 

Term : reliability (performance)

Definition : The ability of an item to perform a required function under given conditions for a given time interval.
NOTE 1 – It is generally assumed that the item is in a state to perform this required function at the beginning of the time interval.
NOTE 2 – Generally, reliability performance is quantified using appropriate measures. In some applications, these measures include an expression of reliability performance as a probability, which is also called reliability.


or

Term : reliability characteristic

Definition : The Mean Time Between Failures (MTBF) to maintain a defined QOS requirement.


- Stewart

On 10/08/2017 05:42, Pedro Martinez-Julia wrote:

Dear all,
 
I personally think it is better to use the industrial definitions but,
being purist, we can find important differences between them. While
availability is the probability for a system to work as expected in some
period of time (99.999% of time), reliability is a broader term that
refers to the different situations in which a system will be able to
overcome without breaking. In some cases, the latter can incorporate the
former, but not in all of them.
 
For network slicing we can keep the definition commonly used by industry
with the necessary details to make clear the aspects that differentiate
them. I would keep "working as expected for some period of time" related
to availability and "resistant to disparate situations" to reliability.
 
Regards,
Pedro
 
 
On Thu, Aug 10, 2017 at 02:44:09AM +0000, GENG Liang wrote:
Hi Cristina,
 
Interestingly we were discussing this confusion with few industrial partners recently. In telecommunication language we normally use "Reliability" to refer the probability a network is stably run (i.e. 99.999% of time). This is also regarded as network "Availability". However, "Reliability" in industrial verticals is more comprehensive - including not only network availability parameter but also mechanics, electricity etc.
 
Personally I think, network slicing is still looking at network regime where I believe Reliability means the percentage of time a connection is available. But we you sell this concept to industrial verticals, they may think differently.
 
________________________________
Liang GENG
China Mobile Research Institute
 
From: qiangli (D)<mailto:qiangli3@huawei.com>
Date: 2017-08-10 10:04
To: netslices@ietf.org<mailto:netslices@ietf.org>
Subject: [Netslices] Reliability & Availability in NetSling
Hi All,
 
I was confused when I was reading some NetSlicing related materials. It seems that “Reliability” supported by Netslicing refers to the probability that a network slice could work stably, or other similar metrics. But, shouldn’t this be the defination of “Availability”? Then what does reliability mean in NetSlicing?
 
 
Best regards,
 
Cristina QIANG
 
 
_______________________________________________
Netslices mailing list
Netslices@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netslices
 
 

 


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[213.123.124.182]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id r3sm5750500wra.97.2017.08.14.01.51.24 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 14 Aug 2017 01:51:25 -0700 (PDT) To: "qiangli (D)" , "netslices@ietf.org" Cc: =?UTF-8?B?TGlhbmcgR2VuZyB8IOiAv+S6rg==?= , 'Pedro Martinez-Julia' References: <06C389826B926F48A557D5DB5A54C4ED2A5743F7@dggemi509-mbs.china.huawei.com> <20170810044200.GB1828@spectre> <17a7e36c-21c7-93ef-8058-573019280dfc@gmail.com> <06C389826B926F48A557D5DB5A54C4ED2A5745E2@dggemi509-mbs.china.huawei.com> <06C389826B926F48A557D5DB5A54C4ED2A579B55@dggemi509-mbs.china.huawei.com> From: Stewart Bryant Message-ID: Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2017 09:51:23 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.2.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <06C389826B926F48A557D5DB5A54C4ED2A579B55@dggemi509-mbs.china.huawei.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------EEE522AC95FD2DD55E5C9B40" Content-Language: en-GB Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Netslices] Reliability & Availability in NetSling X-BeenThere: netslices@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: "This list is intended for discussion and review of network slicing at IETF." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2017 08:51:30 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------EEE522AC95FD2DD55E5C9B40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Well, we do need a definition to point to even if we reuse an existing definition. That way we all have a common understanding of the term and can provide a common explanation to the tenants. - Stewart On 14/08/2017 04:53, qiangli (D) wrote: > > Hi Stewart and All, > > Thank you for your suggestion. According to your information, it seems > that the words “reliability” is more suitable for the context of > network slicing with SLA guarantee. > > As Liang mentioned, industrial verticals and other partners have > different views on “reliability”. Even within IETF, different WGs may > have different understandings. A standardized definition of > “reliability” in NetSlicing scope is quite necessary IMHO, then NS > service provider can further classify the “reliability” and adopt the > appropriateimplementation technology accordingly. I would like to know > your opinion on this, and do we need to define the slicing specific > “reliability”? > > Best regards, > > Cristina QIANG > > *From:*Stewart Bryant [mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail.com] > *Sent:* Friday, August 11, 2017 4:26 PM > *To:* qiangli (D); netslices@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [Netslices] Reliability & Availability in NetSling > > From a tenant's perspective, which arguably is the most important > perspective the key characteristics of interest is surely "The Mean > Time Between Failures (MTBF) to maintain a defined QOS requirement." > together with the duration of those periods. > > With that information you can the viability of your application over > the slice, and the impact on your business. > > - Stewart > > On 11/08/2017 08:47, qiangli (D) wrote: > > Hi All, > > The phrase “working as expected” inspired me. For a network slice, > what people expect is not only the stable working > probability/time, but also the guaranteed SLA. > > Try to consider from tenant’s perspective, I would be very > concerned about how much the promised SLA could really be > achieved. I am not sure which one (availability/reliability) this > concept should belong to according to ITU’s definitions. > > Best regards, > > Cristina QIANG > > *From:*Netslices [mailto:netslices-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of > *Stewart Bryant > *Sent:* Thursday, August 10, 2017 5:58 PM > *To:* netslices@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [Netslices] Reliability & Availability in NetSling > > > In general at IETF we associate reliable with the probability of > packet delivery, and a reliable transport protocol is one that > retries (at a cost of delay) until the packet is delivered or > other factors intervene. Availability tends to refer to the > ability of the network to receive packets for attempted delivery. > > I looked for a formal definition in IPPM which is the WG that is > concerned with measuring such things but could not find a definition. > > From the ITU we can find: > > *Term* : availability (performance) > > *Definition* : The ability of an item to be in a state to perform > a required function under given conditions at a given instant of > time or over a given time interval, assuming that the required > external resources are provided. > NOTE 1 –This ability depends on the combined aspects of the > reliability performance, the maintainability performance and the > maintenance support performance. > NOTE 2 –Required external resources, other than maintenance > resources do not affect the availability performance of the item. > > *Term* : reliability (performance) > > *Definition* : The ability of an item to perform a required > function under given conditions for a given time interval. > NOTE 1 –It is generally assumed that the item is in a state to > perform this required function at the beginning of the time interval. > NOTE 2 –Generally, reliability performance is quantified using > appropriate measures. In some applications, these measures include > an expression of reliability performance as a probability, which > is also called reliability. > > > or > > *Term* : reliability characteristic > > *Definition* : The Mean Time Between Failures (MTBF) to maintain a > defined QOS requirement. > > > - Stewart > > On 10/08/2017 05:42, Pedro Martinez-Julia wrote: > > Dear all, > > I personally think it is better to use the industrial > definitions but, > > being purist, we can find important differences between them. > While > > availability is the probability for a system to work as > expected in some > > period of time (99.999% of time), reliability is a broader > term that > > refers to the different situations in which a system will be > able to > > overcome without breaking. In some cases, the latter can > incorporate the > > former, but not in all of them. > > For network slicing we can keep the definition commonly used > by industry > > with the necessary details to make clear the aspects that > differentiate > > them. I would keep "working as expected for some period of > time" related > > to availability and "resistant to disparate situations" to > reliability. > > Regards, > > Pedro > > On Thu, Aug 10, 2017 at 02:44:09AM +0000, GENG Liang wrote: > > Hi Cristina, > > Interestingly we were discussing this confusion with few > industrial partners recently. In telecommunication > language we normally use "Reliability" to refer the > probability a network is stably run (i.e. 99.999% of > time). This is also regarded as network "Availability". > However, "Reliability" in industrial verticals is more > comprehensive - including not only network availability > parameter but also mechanics, electricity etc. > > Personally I think, network slicing is still looking at > network regime where I believe Reliability means the > percentage of time a connection is available. But we you > sell this concept to industrial verticals, they may think > differently. > > ________________________________ > > Liang GENG > > China Mobile Research Institute > > From: qiangli (D) > > > Date: 2017-08-10 10:04 > > To: netslices@ietf.org > > > > Subject: [Netslices] Reliability & Availability in NetSling > > Hi All, > > I was confused when I was reading some NetSlicing related > materials. It seems that “Reliability”supported by Netslicing refers to the probability that a > network slice could work stably, or other similar metrics. > But, shouldn’t this be the defination of “Availability”? Then what does reliability mean in NetSlicing? > > Best regards, > > Cristina QIANG > > _______________________________________________ > > Netslices mailing list > > Netslices@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netslices > --------------EEE522AC95FD2DD55E5C9B40 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Well, we do need a definition to point to even if we reuse an existing definition. That way we all have a common understanding of the term and can provide a common explanation to the tenants.

- Stewart


On 14/08/2017 04:53, qiangli (D) wrote:

Hi Stewart and All,

 

Thank you for your suggestion. According to your information, it seems that the words “reliability” is more suitable for the context of network slicing with SLA guarantee.

 

As Liang mentioned, industrial verticals and other partners have different views on “reliability”. Even within IETF, different WGs may have different understandings. A standardized definition of “reliability” in NetSlicing scope is quite necessary IMHO, then NS service provider can further classify the “reliability” and adopt the appropriate implementation technology accordingly. I would like to know your opinion on this, and do we need to define the slicing specific “reliability”?

 

Best regards,

 

Cristina QIANG

 

From: Stewart Bryant [mailto:stewart.bryant@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, August 11, 2017 4:26 PM
To: qiangli (D); netslices@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Netslices] Reliability & Availability in NetSling

 

 

From a tenant's perspective, which arguably is the most important perspective the key characteristics of interest is  surely "The Mean Time Between Failures (MTBF) to maintain a defined QOS requirement." together with the duration of those periods.

With that information you can the viability of your application over the slice, and the impact on your business.

- Stewart

On 11/08/2017 08:47, qiangli (D) wrote:

Hi All,

 

The phrase “working as expected” inspired me. For a network slice, what people expect is not only the stable working probability/time, but also the guaranteed SLA.

 

Try to consider from tenant’s perspective, I would be very concerned about how much the promised SLA could really be achieved. I am not sure which one (availability/reliability) this concept should belong to according to ITU’s definitions.

 

 

Best regards,

 

Cristina QIANG

 

From: Netslices [mailto:netslices-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Stewart Bryant
Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2017 5:58 PM
To: netslices@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Netslices] Reliability & Availability in NetSling

 


In general at IETF we associate reliable with the probability of packet delivery, and a reliable transport protocol is one that retries (at a cost of delay) until the packet is delivered or other factors intervene. Availability tends to refer to the ability of the network to receive packets for attempted delivery.

I looked for a formal definition in IPPM which is the WG that is concerned with measuring such things but could not find a definition.

From the ITU we can find:

Term : availability (performance)

Definition : The ability of an item to be in a state to perform a required function under given conditions at a given instant of time or over a given time interval, assuming that the required external resources are provided.
NOTE 1
This ability depends on the combined aspects of the reliability performance, the maintainability performance and the maintenance support performance. 
NOTE 2
Required external resources, other than maintenance resources do not affect the availability performance of the item.

 

Term : reliability (performance)

Definition : The ability of an item to perform a required function under given conditions for a given time interval.
NOTE 1
It is generally assumed that the item is in a state to perform this required function at the beginning of the time interval.
NOTE 2
Generally, reliability performance is quantified using appropriate measures. In some applications, these measures include an expression of reliability performance as a probability, which is also called reliability.


or

Term : reliability characteristic

Definition : The Mean Time Between Failures (MTBF) to maintain a defined QOS requirement.


- Stewart

On 10/08/2017 05:42, Pedro Martinez-Julia wrote:

Dear all,
 
I personally think it is better to use the industrial definitions but,
being purist, we can find important differences between them. While
availability is the probability for a system to work as expected in some
period of time (99.999% of time), reliability is a broader term that
refers to the different situations in which a system will be able to
overcome without breaking. In some cases, the latter can incorporate the
former, but not in all of them.
 
For network slicing we can keep the definition commonly used by industry
with the necessary details to make clear the aspects that differentiate
them. I would keep "working as expected for some period of time" related
to availability and "resistant to disparate situations" to reliability.
 
Regards,
Pedro
 
 
On Thu, Aug 10, 2017 at 02:44:09AM +0000, GENG Liang wrote:
Hi Cristina,
 
Interestingly we were discussing this confusion with few industrial partners recently. In telecommunication language we normally use "Reliability" to refer the probability a network is stably run (i.e. 99.999% of time). This is also regarded as network "Availability". However, "Reliability" in industrial verticals is more comprehensive - including not only network availability parameter but also mechanics, electricity etc.
 
Personally I think, network slicing is still looking at network regime where I believe Reliability means the percentage of time a connection is available. But we you sell this concept to industrial verticals, they may think differently.
 
________________________________
Liang GENG
China Mobile Research Institute
 
From: qiangli (D)<mailto:qiangli3@huawei.com>
Date: 2017-08-10 10:04
To: netslices@ietf.org<mailto:netslices@ietf.org>
Subject: [Netslices] Reliability & Availability in NetSling
Hi All,
 
I was confused when I was reading some NetSlicing related materials. It seems that Reliability supported by Netslicing refers to the probability that a network slice could work stably, or other similar metrics. But, shouldnt this be the defination of Availability? Then what does reliability mean in NetSlicing?
 
 
Best regards,
 
Cristina QIANG
 
 
_______________________________________________
Netslices mailing list
Netslices@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netslices
 
 

 

 


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