From nobody Tue Sep 6 16:03:40 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rmcat@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rmcat@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3942312B0A7 for ; Tue, 6 Sep 2016 16:03:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id anZPisvqUQhm for ; Tue, 6 Sep 2016 16:03:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nasse.dc.kau.se (smtp.kau.se [193.10.220.39]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4DFF412B03A for ; Tue, 6 Sep 2016 16:03:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Spam-Processed: mail.kau.se, Wed, 07 Sep 2016 01:03:29 +0200 (not processed: spam filter heuristic analysis disabled) X-MDRemoteIP: 213.113.182.202 X-MDArrival-Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2016 01:03:29 +0200 X-Authenticated-Sender: anna.brunstrom@kau.se X-Return-Path: anna.brunstrom@kau.se X-Envelope-From: anna.brunstrom@kau.se X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: rmcat@ietf.org From: Anna Brunstrom To: "rmcat@ietf.org" Message-ID: <61fd6536-366b-e3c9-0d76-162059d74a54@kau.se> Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2016 01:03:28 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------C123475C5E2E40C69C4A69A0" Archived-At: Subject: [rmcat] RMCAT WGLC: draft-ietf-rmcat-coupled-cc-03 - ends Sep 21 X-BeenThere: rmcat@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "RTP Media Congestion Avoidance Techniques \(RMCAT\) Working Group discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2016 23:03:39 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------C123475C5E2E40C69C4A69A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This email announces a RMCAT Working Group Last Call (WGLC) on: Coupled congestion control for RTP media draft-ietf-rmcat-coupled-cc-03 This WGLC will run for 2 weeks, ending at midnight US Eastern Time on Wednesday, September 21. Comments should be sent to the rmcat@ietf.org list, although purely editorial comments may be sent directly to the authors at draft-ietf-rmcat-coupled-cc@ietf.org - if doing so, please cc: the WG chairs at rmcat-chairs@tools.ietf.org. We are looking for at least a couple of reviews during WGLC, so please help review the document. Thanks, Anna & Martin --------------C123475C5E2E40C69C4A69A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

This email announces a RMCAT Working Group Last Call (WGLC) on:

Coupled congestion control for RTP media
draft-ietf-rmcat-coupled-cc-03

This WGLC will run for 2 weeks, ending at midnight US Eastern Time on Wednesday, September 21.  Comments should be sent to the rmcat@ietf.org list, although purely editorial comments may be sent directly to the authors at draft-ietf-rmcat-coupled-cc@ietf.org - if doing so, please cc: the WG chairs at rmcat-chairs@tools.ietf.org.

We are looking for at least a couple of reviews during WGLC, so please help review the document.

Thanks,
Anna & Martin


--------------C123475C5E2E40C69C4A69A0-- From nobody Tue Sep 6 16:12:49 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rmcat@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rmcat@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 300C512B40C for ; Tue, 6 Sep 2016 16:12:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tUL6oP8c2U7M for ; Tue, 6 Sep 2016 16:12:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tiger.dc.kau.se (smtp.kau.se [193.10.220.38]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C74D712B29B for ; Tue, 6 Sep 2016 16:12:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Spam-Processed: mail.kau.se, Wed, 07 Sep 2016 01:12:39 +0200 (not processed: spam filter heuristic analysis disabled) X-MDRemoteIP: 213.113.182.202 X-MDArrival-Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2016 01:12:39 +0200 X-Authenticated-Sender: anna.brunstrom@kau.se X-Return-Path: anna.brunstrom@kau.se X-Envelope-From: anna.brunstrom@kau.se X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: rmcat@ietf.org To: "rmcat@ietf.org" From: Anna Brunstrom Message-ID: <9f8ec20e-06fd-9811-9e1c-7080d1b1d01b@kau.se> Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2016 01:12:40 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: [rmcat] Moving documents forward X-BeenThere: rmcat@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "RTP Media Congestion Avoidance Techniques \(RMCAT\) Working Group discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2016 23:12:49 -0000 Dear all, As we have a few documents that are ready, or soon ready, for WGLC we just want to let you know that we plan to take them sequentially to give everyone time to read. The WGLC for the coupled cc draft was just announced and scream will be up next. Thanks, Anna & Martin From nobody Thu Sep 8 00:28:15 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rmcat@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rmcat@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 447A712B131 for ; Thu, 8 Sep 2016 00:28:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.22 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.22 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=ericsson.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IcixVdaKO0cn for ; Thu, 8 Sep 2016 00:28:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sesbmg23.ericsson.net (sesbmg23.ericsson.net [193.180.251.37]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D620C12B01D for ; 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DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; SCL:1; SRVR:DB4PR07MB348; H:DB4PR07MB348.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; PTR:InfoNoRecords; MX:1; A:1; LANG:en; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: ericsson.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_DB4PR07MB348CA57EBD661D3A508ED8EC2FB0DB4PR07MB348eurprd_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 08 Sep 2016 07:28:04.3221 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 92e84ceb-fbfd-47ab-be52-080c6b87953f X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DB4PR07MB348 X-OriginatorOrg: ericsson.com X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFlrHKsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM2K7jS6X8MVwgwWzOC0a1rFafJx3j81i 9c0PbA7MHkuW/GTy+DfpGmMAUxSXTUpqTmZZapG+XQJXRvvJL+wF0+0rjmw4wdrAeN+0i5GT Q0LAROLd5BssXYxcHEIC6xklfs58BeUcZ5SYteIgI4jDItDLLLFw0l6ozEQmibdfd0E5Rxkl rpxrYAQZxiZgI7Hy0HcwW0QgQWLtiTZmEJtZwEDi0OsL7F2MHBzCApUSJzfxQZTUSWxtvs8E YetJ/F63mR3EZhFQkbg99z9YK69AlMTeRafARjIKiEl8P7WGCWKkuMStJ/OZIH4QkFiy5zwz hC0q8fLxP1aI+mSJTzd7WSHiChKt15uhbF+JzqNz2UDulxB4yybx6fthdoiEq8Tnt28YIexM iccnO9kg7GiJRb8vMUI0bGOUaLk0H2qbjETH61tQk36zSsxr+AG2QkggVWL52lawScICUhJ3 r3RC2TISL+7sZYV4IV/i2e1brBMY1Wch+WgWktQscAgISpyc+YRlFjQg35+bzwxha0ssW/ga ytaX2PjlLCOy+AJG9lWMosWpxUm56UbGeqlFmcnFxfl5enmpJZsYgano4JbfqjsYL79xPMQo wMGoxMObIHshXIg1say4MvcQowQHs5IIrwD/xXAh3pTEyqrUovz4otKc1OJDjNIcLErivP4v FcOFBNITS1KzU1MLUotgskwcnFINjNzVDN9dvqxI2Xfzx5KWLo2aswcSfny8+/SojY47y43z 3HvX8whtmzmrOv6L+rK0ku0xpxbd2Vetfjr9ZYLj2nXfY1MX+f+T3+UTO1HUaGpD/zK1stC5 Iav7Hh/XEPxxeNa8d6GvS+7/vvVPR8skdPaORYX3fOOM3dIUJvUpsDw3kfHb+MVwRqcSS3FG oqEWc1FxIgDdVllUQQMAAA== Archived-At: Cc: "rmcat WG \(rmcat@ietf.org\)" Subject: [rmcat] =?windows-1252?q?CS244_=9216=3A_Self-clocked_Rate_adaptio?= =?windows-1252?q?n_for_Conversational_Video_in_LTE?= X-BeenThere: rmcat@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "RTP Media Congestion Avoidance Techniques \(RMCAT\) Working Group discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Sep 2016 07:28:14 -0000 --_000_DB4PR07MB348CA57EBD661D3A508ED8EC2FB0DB4PR07MB348eurprd_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi By accident I found the test report for SCReAM at the link below, published= May 30 https://reproducingnetworkresearch.wordpress.com/2016/05/30/cs244-16-self-c= locked-rate-adaptation-for-conversational-video-in-lte/ Some comments. The results show that SCReAM fails when subject to competing TCP flows. Thi= s is true in some cases and especially when the bottlenecks constitute tail= drop queues with large buffers that give several 100ms extra queue delay a= t congestion. The work on the competing flows compensation has been quite difficult to co= nclude with 100% success, the problem is that any solution to this problem = has to compromise between the risk of causing self-inflicted congestion and= the ability to work when subject to competition from TCP flows in bufferbl= oated links. One specific problem I have had is that, while it is possible = to devise an algorithm that does well against TCP in reasonably bufferbloat= ed links, these algorithms can easily cause self-inflicted congestion in LT= E simulation cases. I needed to strike some compromise here. I observe that the OWD (or actually queue delay) increases up to 700ms in t= he experiment, I get the feeling that this bottleneck buffer is very large = (or infinite), there is not a chance that SCReAM can compete against TCP un= der these circumstances. Thanks for the comments in the Critique and Challenges section, some commen= ts: + The max bitrate is not limited to 1Mbps, it is configurable. In fact it h= as been run as high as 5-6Mbps in the tests with OpenWebRTC, in this case i= t was the CPU demands of the video coder that limited higher throughputs. + Packet pacing: I don=92t believe that packet pacing is limiting but need = to check it up, see later in the text that the feedback interval was perhap= s the limiting factor?. The updated version of the C++ code contains code i= n ScreamRx that better determines when and how often to send feedback, base= d on the received media bitrate, this should make it possible to reach high= er bitrates (up to 5-10Mbps) without problems. + Parameters: There are a number of constants and parameters, I have tried = to make the interfaces easier to use in the updated code, in essence it should suffice to set a min and max media bitra= te. + Readability: You are right, this is always a challenge, I did a major reh= aul of the code and interfaces in July but there is definitely still work t= o do. Regards Ingemar Johansson --_000_DB4PR07MB348CA57EBD661D3A508ED8EC2FB0DB4PR07MB348eurprd_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi

 

By accident I found the test report for SCReAM at th= e link below, published May 30

https://reproducingnetworkresearch.wordpress.com/2016/05/30= /cs244-16-self-clocked-rate-adaptation-for-conversational-video-in-lte/

 

Some comments.

The results show that SCReAM fails when subject to c= ompeting TCP flows. This is true in some cases and especially when the bott= lenecks constitute tail drop queues with large buffers that give several 10= 0ms extra queue delay at congestion.

The work on the competing flows compensation has bee= n quite difficult to conclude with 100% success, the problem is that any so= lution to this problem has to compromise between the risk of causing self-i= nflicted congestion and the ability to work when subject to competition from TCP flows in bufferbloated links.= One specific problem I have had is that, while it is possible to devise an= algorithm that does well against TCP in reasonably bufferbloated links, th= ese algorithms can easily cause self-inflicted congestion in LTE simulation cases. I needed to strike some= compromise here.

I observe that the OWD (or actually queue delay) inc= reases up to 700ms in the experiment, I get the feeling that this bottlenec= k buffer is very large (or infinite), there is not a chance that SCReAM can= compete against TCP under these circumstances.

 

Thanks for the comments in the Critique and Challeng= es section, some comments:

+ The max bitrate is not limited to 1Mbps, it is= configurable. In fact it has been run as high as 5-6Mbps in the tests with= OpenWebRTC, in this case it was the CPU demands of the video coder that li= mited higher throughputs.

+ Packet pacing: I don=92t believe that packet p= acing is limiting but need to check it up, see later in the text that the f= eedback interval was perhaps the limiting factor?. The updated version of t= he C++ code contains code in ScreamRx that better determines when and how often to send feedback, based on the receiv= ed media bitrate, this should make it possible to reach higher bitrates (up= to 5-10Mbps) without problems.

+ Parameters: There are a number of constants an= d parameters, I have tried to make the interfaces easier to use in the

updated code, in essence it should suffice to set a = min and max media bitrate.

+ Readability: You are right, this is always a c= hallenge, I did a major rehaul of the code and interfaces in July but there= is definitely still work to do.

 

Regards

Ingemar Johansson

 

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Thu, 8 Sep 2016 13:16:55 +0000 Received: from DB4PR07MB348.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com ([10.141.234.148]) by DB4PR07MB348.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com ([10.141.234.148]) with mapi id 15.01.0587.019; Thu, 8 Sep 2016 13:16:55 +0000 From: Ingemar Johansson S To: "safiquli@ifi.uio.no" , "Mmichawe@ifi.uio.no" , "steing@ifi.uio.no" , "'rmcat-chairs@tools.ietf.org'" Thread-Topic: WGLC comments on draft-ietf-rmcat-coupled-cc-03 Thread-Index: AdIJrlQsUy2I7lvrTt2HyJHgA02zGQ== Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2016 13:16:55 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com; x-originating-ip: [192.176.1.94] x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 128e4c3e-8948-4da3-8841-08d3d7ea6818 x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; DB4PR07MB345; 6:Sx7dlzcbVDycf5sTZg9N0ma/PuyU/phWk8ivHt9RE6ee4JzP7t3bEaMTTrHu93+Dr+fFXtrMeDPSZZgzcG+Svr/mD/sTqKg/eC3tfUxim5uRLU50z4d27piY441nkvsOliFXKAVZizvWKBn4Q2BAi/E6BflFWB3fDn4FP7flW01gQCt1NslnRhIQm0zokKWtfCDqUIF27eIsgjn5cIRC7nb9Q5ukha7yEbBC4LWo6rx09nBvh5F51J0DP5rBi1xnbaact7JqTC4AP/bA5/6NS3v6mrDSVrb7k0ezGM7cM5Q=; 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List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Sep 2016 13:28:27 -0000 --_000_DB4PR07MB3486A82FFA43E0E9D4AFCF5C2FB0DB4PR07MB348eurprd_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi I have read through draft-ietf-rmcat-coupled-cc-03, just a few comments. List of variables : I find myself scrolling forth and back in the document I search for an expl= anation to all the variables, perhaps a dedicated list of variables and the= ir meaning would be good ? Section 5.3.1 : My understanding here is that this algorithm does assume that the media cod= er will produce an output bitrate that is FSE_R. In reality the output rate= from a video coder may be considerably lower than the target if for instan= ce the image is more or less static. I guess that the means that bandwidth = becomes unallocated or ? . It seems like this "underutilization problem" is discussed in Appendix B w= here the "desired rate" is mention, is this DR to be set equal to the video= coder output rate ? /Ingemar =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Ingemar Johansson M.Sc. Master Researcher Ericsson AB Wireless Access Networks Labratoriegr=E4nd 11 971 28, Lule=E5, Sweden Phone +46-1071 43042 SMS/MMS +46-73 078 3289 ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com www.ericsson.com And we cannot reach any higher If we can't deal with ordinary love U2 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D --_000_DB4PR07MB3486A82FFA43E0E9D4AFCF5C2FB0DB4PR07MB348eurprd_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi

 

I have read through draft-ietf-rmcat-coupled-cc-03, = just a few comments.

 

List of variables :

I find myself scrolling forth and back in the docume= nt I search for an explanation to all the variables, perhaps a dedicated li= st of variables and their meaning would be good ?

 

Section 5.3.1 :

My understanding here is that this algorithm does as= sume that the media coder will produce an output bitrate that is FSE_R. In = reality the output rate from a video coder may be considerably lower than t= he target if for instance the image is more or less static. I guess that the means that bandwidth becomes unal= located or ? .

It seems like this “underutilization problem&#= 8221; is  discussed in Appendix B where the “desired rate”= is mention, is this DR to be set equal to the video coder output rate ?

 

/Ingemar

=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

Ingemar Joh= ansson  M.Sc.

Master Researcher<= /o:p>

 

Ericsson AB<= /span>

Wireless Access Network= s

Labratoriegr=E4nd 11

971 28, Lule=E5, Sweden=

Phone +46-1071 4304= 2

SMS/MMS +46-73 078 = 3289

ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com=

www.ericsson.co= m

 

  And we cannot re= ach any higher

If we can't deal with o= rdinary love

    = ;            &n= bsp;U2

=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

 

--_000_DB4PR07MB3486A82FFA43E0E9D4AFCF5C2FB0DB4PR07MB348eurprd_-- From nobody Fri Sep 9 02:41:45 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rmcat@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rmcat@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B06212B3A4 for ; Fri, 9 Sep 2016 02:41:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.408 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.408 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.508] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nCzjC-oOYI89 for ; Fri, 9 Sep 2016 02:41:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-out01.uio.no (mail-out01.uio.no [IPv6:2001:700:100:10::50]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E136812B34C for ; Fri, 9 Sep 2016 02:39:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-mx2.uio.no ([129.240.10.30]) by mail-out01.uio.no with esmtp (Exim 4.82_1-5b7a7c0-XX) (envelope-from ) id 1biIHf-0000ac-LT; Fri, 09 Sep 2016 11:39:43 +0200 Received: from boomerang.ifi.uio.no ([129.240.68.135]) by mail-mx2.uio.no with esmtpsa (TLSv1:DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA:256) user michawe (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1biIHf-0006AJ-6Q; Fri, 09 Sep 2016 11:39:43 +0200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2104\)) From: Michael Welzl In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2016 11:39:42 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <5A859713-5BB0-4285-AA1E-F1C99FF7FBE6@ifi.uio.no> References: To: Ingemar Johansson S X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2104) X-UiO-SPF-Received: X-UiO-Ratelimit-Test: rcpts/h 6 msgs/h 2 sum rcpts/h 13 sum msgs/h 4 total rcpts 46114 max rcpts/h 54 ratelimit 0 X-UiO-Spam-info: not spam, SpamAssassin (score=-6.1, required=5.0, autolearn=disabled, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.148, UIO_MAIL_IS_INTERNAL=-5, uiobl=NO, uiouri=NO) X-UiO-Scanned: F67DBBE292DCEEAA782A663EEB92EC2A00945DEB X-UiO-SPAM-Test: remote_host: 129.240.68.135 spam_score: -60 maxlevel 80 minaction 2 bait 0 mail/h: 2 total 11087 max/h 21 blacklist 0 greylist 0 ratelimit 0 Archived-At: Cc: rmcat WG Subject: Re: [rmcat] WGLC comments on draft-ietf-rmcat-coupled-cc-03 X-BeenThere: rmcat@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "RTP Media Congestion Avoidance Techniques \(RMCAT\) Working Group discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Sep 2016 09:41:44 -0000 Hi Ingemar! Thanks for reading our draft. Answers in line: > On 08 Sep 2016, at 15:16, Ingemar Johansson S = wrote: >=20 > Hi > =20 > I have read through draft-ietf-rmcat-coupled-cc-03, just a few = comments. > =20 > List of variables :=20 > I find myself scrolling forth and back in the document I search for an = explanation to all the variables, perhaps a dedicated list of variables = and their meaning would be good ? Agreed, we will do that. =20 > Section 5.3.1 :=20 > My understanding here is that this algorithm does assume that the = media coder will produce an output bitrate that is FSE_R. In reality the = output rate from a video coder may be considerably lower than the target = if for instance the image is more or less static. I guess that the means = that bandwidth becomes unallocated or ? . Yes. > It seems like this =93underutilization problem=94 is discussed in = Appendix B where the =93desired rate=94 is mention, is this DR to be set = equal to the video coder output rate ? Yes. We wanted to deal with the case of a video coder sending less than = allowed from the start; the "desired rate" was therefore a part of the = main text from the beginning. Later, upon request to simplify our algorithm, we moved it to the = appendix. We do think that this would be a good thing to address as the document = moves to PS, so we suggest to insert, in section 7 ("Expected feedback = from experiments"): "Experiments should investigate cases where the media coder's output = rate is below the rate that is calculated by the coupling algorithm = (FSE_R in algorithms 1 and 2, section 5.3)." Cheers, Michael From nobody Thu Sep 15 01:50:33 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rmcat@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rmcat@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E5F512B4A3 for ; Thu, 15 Sep 2016 01:50:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.221 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.221 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=ericsson.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mUk8LGQwfwSF for ; Thu, 15 Sep 2016 01:50:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sessmg22.ericsson.net (sessmg22.ericsson.net [193.180.251.58]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C62CD12B4AD for ; 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DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; SCL:1; SRVR:DB4PR07MB345; H:DB4PR07MB348.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; PTR:InfoNoRecords; A:1; MX:1; LANG:en; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: ericsson.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 15 Sep 2016 08:50:18.9516 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 92e84ceb-fbfd-47ab-be52-080c6b87953f X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DB4PR07MB345 X-OriginatorOrg: ericsson.com X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA02SbUhTYRTHe3bvrnfDwXU5PZiSDFyk5VtJNkRKMvRDUF9aSOKWXtxQp+2q NCVcZclmE9EItChfVmpLoqXpypKNmDMdhQS6idFIUAlrrJdZobXtGvTt9zz/H+c85+GQmPAa N45UqWtpjVpRKSb4eNeZMdl+l9wjS59sTcvecFm52Wa3jzjCKTCZfnIKzGYvdpJTxM8poytV 9bQmLVfOV070OYgafdSFwOoeHXoiMCAeCdRBaJ+Z5BoQnxRSjxB4b+lw9uBEMPTeSYQOOGXE 4MrSCMEmnRxw3OzY1hwIvvS1YqFiBJUDQ/YACnE0JQHngJkIMUYlwPy6Ncw7qWPgbenjsE4+ GNwr274UXhmmw3VwKgkcvoWwL6CKQLf2DGObtSHwvVjghgIelQumfl9EiBEVA4HXDzlss1jw LN/lsNNRYJp4g7EsgrWPW1zWLwW/28hl7xNhanCdYPkEdFquh8cEap0A40TXdpAPX186t1kF v8aWg0wGWQp3ZotZ/ymCsbdzEawTD6MuPcYGTi74mj14KBBSNAwMX0XsV8TB0js9akfJ3f89 nOV90PPcT7CcAvd7P2Hd4d+IgumuZbwH4Q+QiKEZpqo8MzOV1qhKGaZanaqmay0ouB22kd/S cWRbOWpHFInEkYIPMrdMyFXUM9oqOwISE0cLooLLIxSUKbQNtKa6RFNXSTN2tIvExbGCLde8 TEiVK2rpCpquoTX/Ug7Ji9OhlrZvfm9j4Eah57OnYsnavOnPy5CM60vOGUUFeasXpwI/RAFn 444s0Xee9rzNe2DSmrXb5tjr7igsrjptvbS4Ea3unUmwZJ2VdirllsGme7OP+aIUInC57lB6 eaO2QR7fvhnTr1bennOPkk2nhhcl2YcjJW1JCYXH/5QktsyJcUapyEjGNIziL5t8TV8ZAwAA Archived-At: Cc: rmcat WG Subject: Re: [rmcat] WGLC comments on draft-ietf-rmcat-coupled-cc-03 X-BeenThere: rmcat@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "RTP Media Congestion Avoidance Techniques \(RMCAT\) Working Group discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2016 08:50:31 -0000 Hi The suggested addition to section 7 sounds good. Regards /Ingemar > -----Original Message----- > From: Michael Welzl [mailto:michawe@ifi.uio.no] > Sent: den 9 september 2016 11:40 > To: Ingemar Johansson S > Cc: rmcat WG > Subject: Re: [rmcat] WGLC comments on draft-ietf-rmcat-coupled-cc-03 >=20 > Hi Ingemar! >=20 > Thanks for reading our draft. Answers in line: >=20 >=20 > > On 08 Sep 2016, at 15:16, Ingemar Johansson S > wrote: > > > > Hi > > > > I have read through draft-ietf-rmcat-coupled-cc-03, just a few comments= . > > > > List of variables : > > I find myself scrolling forth and back in the document I search for an > explanation to all the variables, perhaps a dedicated list of variables a= nd their > meaning would be good ? >=20 > Agreed, we will do that. >=20 >=20 > > Section 5.3.1 : > > My understanding here is that this algorithm does assume that the media > coder will produce an output bitrate that is FSE_R. In reality the output= rate > from a video coder may be considerably lower than the target if for insta= nce > the image is more or less static. I guess that the means that bandwidth > becomes unallocated or ? . >=20 > Yes. >=20 >=20 > > It seems like this "underutilization problem" is discussed in Appendix= B > where the "desired rate" is mention, is this DR to be set equal to the vi= deo > coder output rate ? >=20 > Yes. >=20 > We wanted to deal with the case of a video coder sending less than allowe= d > from the start; the "desired rate" was therefore a part of the main text = from > the beginning. > Later, upon request to simplify our algorithm, we moved it to the appendi= x. >=20 > We do think that this would be a good thing to address as the document > moves to PS, so we suggest to insert, in section 7 ("Expected feedback fr= om > experiments"): > "Experiments should investigate cases where the media coder's output rate > is below the rate that is calculated by the coupling algorithm (FSE_R in > algorithms 1 and 2, section 5.3)." >=20 > Cheers, > Michael From nobody Sat Sep 17 10:53:32 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rmcat@ietf.org Delivered-To: rmcat@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7AB21128B37; Sat, 17 Sep 2016 10:53:26 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.33.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <147413480635.2963.18242972824525872981.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2016 10:53:26 -0700 Archived-At: Cc: rmcat@ietf.org Subject: [rmcat] I-D Action: draft-ietf-rmcat-sbd-05.txt X-BeenThere: rmcat@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 List-Id: "RTP Media Congestion Avoidance Techniques \(RMCAT\) Working Group discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2016 17:53:26 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the RTP Media Congestion Avoidance Techniques of the IETF. Title : Shared Bottleneck Detection for Coupled Congestion Control for RTP Media. Authors : David Hayes Simone Ferlin Michael Welzl Kristian Hiorth Filename : draft-ietf-rmcat-sbd-05.txt Pages : 23 Date : 2016-09-17 Abstract: This document describes a mechanism to detect whether end-to-end data flows share a common bottleneck. It relies on summary statistics that are calculated based on continuous measurements and used as input to a grouping algorithm that runs wherever the knowledge is needed. This mechanism complements the coupled congestion control mechanism in draft-ietf-rmcat-coupled-cc. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-rmcat-sbd/ There's also a htmlized version available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-rmcat-sbd-05 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-rmcat-sbd-05 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Sun Sep 18 20:26:01 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rmcat@ietf.org Delivered-To: rmcat@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C782812B09A; Sun, 18 Sep 2016 20:25:59 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.33.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <147425555981.15038.7357586631264083483.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2016 20:25:59 -0700 Archived-At: Cc: rmcat@ietf.org Subject: [rmcat] I-D Action: draft-ietf-rmcat-nada-03.txt X-BeenThere: rmcat@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 List-Id: "RTP Media Congestion Avoidance Techniques \(RMCAT\) Working Group discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2016 03:26:00 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the RTP Media Congestion Avoidance Techniques of the IETF. Title : NADA: A Unified Congestion Control Scheme for Real-Time Media Authors : Xiaoqing Zhu Rong Pan Michael A. Ramalho Sergio Mena de la Cruz Paul E. Jones Jiantao Fu Stefano D'Aronco Charles Ganzhorn Filename : draft-ietf-rmcat-nada-03.txt Pages : 26 Date : 2016-09-18 Abstract: This document describes NADA (network-assisted dynamic adaptation), a novel congestion control scheme for interactive real-time media applications, such as video conferencing. In the proposed scheme, the sender regulates its sending rate based on either implicit or explicit congestion signaling, in a unified approach. The scheme can benefit from explicit congestion notification (ECN) markings from network nodes. It also maintains consistent sender behavior in the absence of such markings, by reacting to queuing delays and packet losses instead. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-rmcat-nada/ There's also a htmlized version available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-rmcat-nada-03 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-rmcat-nada-03 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Sun Sep 18 20:41:37 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rmcat@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rmcat@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 389E712B104 for ; Sun, 18 Sep 2016 20:41:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -16.837 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-16.837 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-2.316, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RS8Vrf0u4GDF for ; Sun, 18 Sep 2016 20:41:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-4.cisco.com (alln-iport-4.cisco.com [173.37.142.91]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A375F12B0DC for ; Sun, 18 Sep 2016 20:41:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=3643; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1474256494; x=1475466094; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:references:in-reply-to: content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=ZZ5yLV68uWMtNnQGA4kxbYPGZMnIujq6LYMeVTf4jzw=; b=KMGBjW1eimT53H190aRAwJky7eZmDfExHCjJ1Rqp7/5+uh0VhCzxF8YF T2ZbwULU17RXg9IF5QEkBDwyRF35aqoVH+NZp8A4ZRW7AYL2+LPUHZHt6 QLDLqHcYD5tDTcR2gWKDzXKwFQYVRg+82u74gKXZ0As/cKIqURDm47iDR o=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0CDAQCoXd9X/51dJa1dGgEBAQECAQEBA?= =?us-ascii?q?QgBAQEBgzoBAQEBAR5XfAeGDYcfmwgBBJAwggMkhXoCgTw4FAECAQEBAQEBAV4?= =?us-ascii?q?cC4RhAQEBBIEJAgEIEQQBAQolDyMdCAIEE4hKDsFxAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBA?= =?us-ascii?q?QEBAR6GN4RUhESFXAWObYsCAYYliTaBbk6EFYkZhwKFYoN6AR42hGpyhix/AQE?= =?us-ascii?q?B?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.30,360,1470700800"; d="scan'208";a="324348557" Received: from rcdn-core-6.cisco.com ([173.37.93.157]) by alln-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 19 Sep 2016 03:41:33 +0000 Received: from XCH-ALN-016.cisco.com (xch-aln-016.cisco.com [173.36.7.26]) by rcdn-core-6.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id u8J3fXNY006423 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) for ; Mon, 19 Sep 2016 03:41:33 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-016.cisco.com (173.37.102.26) by XCH-ALN-016.cisco.com (173.36.7.26) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1210.3; Sun, 18 Sep 2016 22:41:33 -0500 Received: from xch-rcd-016.cisco.com ([173.37.102.26]) by XCH-RCD-016.cisco.com ([173.37.102.26]) with mapi id 15.00.1210.000; Sun, 18 Sep 2016 22:41:32 -0500 From: "Xiaoqing Zhu (xiaoqzhu)" To: "rmcat@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [rmcat] I-D Action: draft-ietf-rmcat-nada-03.txt Thread-Index: AQHSEiWPvyIMWxPOB0WKhs/QskpTaKCAJuqx Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2016 03:41:32 +0000 Message-ID: <1474256492509.70751@cisco.com> References: <147425555981.15038.7357586631264083483.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <147425555981.15038.7357586631264083483.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.24.209.11] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [rmcat] I-D Action: draft-ietf-rmcat-nada-03.txt X-BeenThere: rmcat@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "RTP Media Congestion Avoidance Techniques \(RMCAT\) Working Group discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2016 03:41:36 -0000 Hi Everyone, =0A= =0A= Here is an updated draft on NADA. Main changes include: =0A= =0A= * Minor algorithm update in Sec. 4.2: more clear specification on when to a= pply the non-linear warping in Eq. (1); also a slightly simplified non-lin= ear warping function; =0A= =0A= * Corrected previous calculation errors in feedback message requirement (Se= c 5.3) and example feedback overhead calculation (Sec. 6.3, second paragrap= h). =0A= =0A= * Added a new section (Sec 8) on suggested experiments. =0A= =0A= With the changes above, I believe the draft is ready for WGLC. As always, f= eedback from the WG is appreciated. =0A= =0A= BTW, one additional change I would like to make at some point, but have de= ferred for now, is to realign terminology of this draft to the new framewor= k document. Since some revisions are pending for the framework document, it= might make sense to defer those changes till when the draft is close to fi= nal publication. Or, if the WG (or chairs) prefer that we align the termino= logies (between NADA draft and framework document) now, I will be happy to = push out a revision before WGLC. Inputs? =0A= =0A= =0A= Thanks,=0A= Xiaoqing=0A= =0A= =0A= ________________________________________=0A= From: rmcat on behalf of internet-drafts@ietf.org = =0A= Sent: Sunday, September 18, 2016 10:25 PM=0A= To: i-d-announce@ietf.org=0A= Cc: rmcat@ietf.org=0A= Subject: [rmcat] I-D Action: draft-ietf-rmcat-nada-03.txt=0A= =0A= A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director= ies.=0A= This draft is a work item of the RTP Media Congestion Avoidance Techniques = of the IETF.=0A= =0A= Title : NADA: A Unified Congestion Control Scheme for Rea= l-Time Media=0A= Authors : Xiaoqing Zhu=0A= Rong Pan=0A= Michael A. Ramalho=0A= Sergio Mena de la Cruz=0A= Paul E. Jones=0A= Jiantao Fu=0A= Stefano D'Aronco=0A= Charles Ganzhorn=0A= Filename : draft-ietf-rmcat-nada-03.txt=0A= Pages : 26=0A= Date : 2016-09-18=0A= =0A= Abstract:=0A= This document describes NADA (network-assisted dynamic adaptation), a=0A= novel congestion control scheme for interactive real-time media=0A= applications, such as video conferencing. In the proposed scheme,=0A= the sender regulates its sending rate based on either implicit or=0A= explicit congestion signaling, in a unified approach. The scheme can=0A= benefit from explicit congestion notification (ECN) markings from=0A= network nodes. It also maintains consistent sender behavior in the=0A= absence of such markings, by reacting to queuing delays and packet=0A= losses instead.=0A= =0A= =0A= The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:=0A= https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-rmcat-nada/=0A= =0A= There's also a htmlized version available at:=0A= https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-rmcat-nada-03=0A= =0A= A diff from the previous version is available at:=0A= https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-rmcat-nada-03=0A= =0A= =0A= Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio= n=0A= until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.=0A= =0A= Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:=0A= ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/=0A= =0A= From nobody Thu Sep 22 05:51:07 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rmcat@ietf.org Delivered-To: rmcat@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B14B012B1E0; Thu, 22 Sep 2016 05:51:01 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.33.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <147454866171.22431.2019096161649233803.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2016 05:51:01 -0700 Archived-At: Cc: rmcat@ietf.org Subject: [rmcat] I-D Action: draft-ietf-rmcat-eval-criteria-06.txt X-BeenThere: rmcat@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 List-Id: "RTP Media Congestion Avoidance Techniques \(RMCAT\) Working Group discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2016 12:51:02 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the RTP Media Congestion Avoidance Techniques of the IETF. Title : Evaluating Congestion Control for Interactive Real-time Media Authors : Varun Singh Joerg Ott Stefan Holmer Filename : draft-ietf-rmcat-eval-criteria-06.txt Pages : 15 Date : 2016-09-22 Abstract: The Real-time Transport Protocol (RTP) is used to transmit media in telephony and video conferencing applications. This document describes the guidelines to evaluate new congestion control algorithms for interactive point-to-point real-time media. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-rmcat-eval-criteria/ There's also a htmlized version available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-rmcat-eval-criteria-06 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-rmcat-eval-criteria-06 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Fri Sep 23 02:53:51 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rmcat@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rmcat@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3022012B4B3 for ; Fri, 23 Sep 2016 02:53:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id stCrxLOyXM9J for ; Fri, 23 Sep 2016 02:53:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nasse.dc.kau.se (smtp.kau.se [193.10.220.39]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D0C9C12B31A for ; Fri, 23 Sep 2016 02:53:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Spam-Processed: mail.kau.se, Fri, 23 Sep 2016 11:53:41 +0200 (not processed: spam filter heuristic analysis disabled) X-MDRemoteIP: 77.88.71.158 X-MDArrival-Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2016 11:53:41 +0200 X-Authenticated-Sender: anna.brunstrom@kau.se X-Return-Path: anna.brunstrom@kau.se X-Envelope-From: anna.brunstrom@kau.se X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: rmcat@ietf.org To: rmcat@ietf.org References: <61fd6536-366b-e3c9-0d76-162059d74a54@kau.se> From: Anna Brunstrom Message-ID: <42edeb66-6bd9-cba8-9bd9-dc8c1980ba1d@kau.se> Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2016 11:53:33 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <61fd6536-366b-e3c9-0d76-162059d74a54@kau.se> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------BCFEA068764D3A227AE3AE79" Archived-At: Subject: [rmcat] RMCAT WGLC: draft-ietf-rmcat-coupled-cc-03: still accepting comments X-BeenThere: rmcat@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "RTP Media Congestion Avoidance Techniques \(RMCAT\) Working Group discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2016 09:53:49 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------BCFEA068764D3A227AE3AE79 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, As we did not get many reviews, we are extending the period for comments on this draft until Sunday. Please note that all types of feedback is useful. The announcement for SCReAM will follow on Monday. BR, Anna On 2016-09-07 01:03, Anna Brunstrom wrote: > > This email announces a RMCAT Working Group Last Call (WGLC) on: > > Coupled congestion control for RTP media > draft-ietf-rmcat-coupled-cc-03 > > > This WGLC will run for 2 weeks, ending at midnight US Eastern Time on > Wednesday, September 21. Comments should be sent to the > rmcat@ietf.org list, although purely editorial comments may be sent > directly to the authors at draft-ietf-rmcat-coupled-cc@ietf.org - if > doing so, please cc: the WG chairs at rmcat-chairs@tools.ietf.org. > > We are looking for at least a couple of reviews during WGLC, so please > help review the document. > > Thanks, > Anna & Martin > > --------------BCFEA068764D3A227AE3AE79 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Hi all,

As we did not get many reviews, we are extending the period for comments on this draft until Sunday. Please note that all types of feedback is useful.

The announcement for SCReAM will follow on Monday.

BR,
Anna


On 2016-09-07 01:03, Anna Brunstrom wrote:

This email announces a RMCAT Working Group Last Call (WGLC) on:

Coupled congestion control for RTP media
draft-ietf-rmcat-coupled-cc-03

This WGLC will run for 2 weeks, ending at midnight US Eastern Time on Wednesday, September 21.  Comments should be sent to the rmcat@ietf.org list, although purely editorial comments may be sent directly to the authors at draft-ietf-rmcat-coupled-cc@ietf.org - if doing so, please cc: the WG chairs at rmcat-chairs@tools.ietf.org.

We are looking for at least a couple of reviews during WGLC, so please help review the document.

Thanks,
Anna & Martin



--------------BCFEA068764D3A227AE3AE79-- From nobody Mon Sep 26 01:03:04 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rmcat@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rmcat@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B5B912B00A for ; Mon, 26 Sep 2016 01:03:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -16.836 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-16.836 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-2.316, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wWCfGgrU4sO3 for ; Mon, 26 Sep 2016 01:03:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-7.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-7.cisco.com [173.37.86.78]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 004E312B0A6 for ; Mon, 26 Sep 2016 01:02:57 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=10628; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1474876977; x=1476086577; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:references:in-reply-to: mime-version; bh=8msTXecNYG1X/YMSBT8oqvZc/ub1tuDVIP8cCHBXA/s=; b=aDhDsb7ppz3A8Xq/NCOVZlhE5VMxueLE6Iv2nKTG+VR6gO3ROQhzjN8R KOFSEZE1hBuLoAd7e6p27dqy6hMePQzIgF9tzVufWuo92zg0WT8B4MPY8 EbAGehwIknXZ5FftZWXgvGmZREaBx1EsQoCjcPSTpPPu8pB2f+8d/UxLU 4=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0AcAgAY1ehX/5JdJa1dGgEBAQECAQEBA?= =?us-ascii?q?QgBAQEBgwc0AQEBAQEeV3wHhg2HH5sTAQQBiySFEIIEJIV6AoFIOBQBAgEBAQE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQFeJ4RhAQEBBIEJAgEZAQMBAQoeBw8jFAMGCAIEARKISw69awEBAQEBAQEBA?= =?us-ascii?q?QEBAQEBAQEBAQEBARcFhjeEVIQWEQFShSgFjDGCPosHAYE5hG2JQYFuhGSDN4V?= =?us-ascii?q?ijGuDewEeNhqCfxyBUHKFXIEgfwEBAQ?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.30,398,1470700800"; d="scan'208,217";a="151183221" Received: from rcdn-core-10.cisco.com ([173.37.93.146]) by rcdn-iport-7.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 26 Sep 2016 08:02:56 +0000 Received: from XCH-ALN-016.cisco.com (xch-aln-016.cisco.com [173.36.7.26]) by rcdn-core-10.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id u8Q82uUR007278 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 26 Sep 2016 08:02:56 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-016.cisco.com (173.37.102.26) by XCH-ALN-016.cisco.com (173.36.7.26) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1210.3; Mon, 26 Sep 2016 03:02:56 -0500 Received: from xch-rcd-016.cisco.com ([173.37.102.26]) by XCH-RCD-016.cisco.com ([173.37.102.26]) with mapi id 15.00.1210.000; Mon, 26 Sep 2016 03:02:56 -0500 From: "Xiaoqing Zhu (xiaoqzhu)" To: Anna Brunstrom , "rmcat@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Review of draft-ietf-rmcat-coupled-cc-03 Thread-Index: AQHSF8d3H8ZGmp5PT0+qTZf8ESW8VA== Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2016 08:02:56 +0000 Message-ID: <1474876976118.84485@cisco.com> References: <61fd6536-366b-e3c9-0d76-162059d74a54@kau.se>, <42edeb66-6bd9-cba8-9bd9-dc8c1980ba1d@kau.se> In-Reply-To: <42edeb66-6bd9-cba8-9bd9-dc8c1980ba1d@kau.se> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.24.119.5] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_147487697611884485ciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: [rmcat] Review of draft-ietf-rmcat-coupled-cc-03 X-BeenThere: rmcat@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "RTP Media Congestion Avoidance Techniques \(RMCAT\) Working Group discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2016 08:03:02 -0000 --_000_147487697611884485ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, I have read through the draft, and consider it to be in good shape overall.= In particular, the descriptions in Sec. 6.1 regarding what information ex= change is needed for making coupled congestion control work for NADA is cle= ar. Below are some further suggestions, mainly with the intention to further im= prove a reader's understand of merits of this work. * In both abstract and introduction section, will be nice to explicitly poi= nt out what type of benefit one may expect from adopting coupled congestion= control, instead of vaguely stating that "... behavior is improved". It be= came clearly later in the text that benefits may be in the form of reduced = queuing delay and packet losses. Will be nice to call those out earlier in = the draft as well. * In Introduction, end of first paragraph, it is stated that the effect (of= undesirable queuing delay) "is amplified when multiple congestion controll= ed connections traverse the same network bottleneck". Why is the effect "a= mplified"? It does not seem to be immediately clear to me (maybe only me?)= . * Section 3, Limitations: "... to eventually decide the transmission rate"= =3D> "... to eventually decide on the transmission rate" * Section 4, Architecture Overview: Can Figure 1 be a bit more specific in= terms of what input/output each module takes? The text provides some exa= mples (e.g., that arrow from SBD to FSE denotes the Flow State Identifiers)= , but it was a bit hard to follow in conjunction with the figure. Maybe it= will be more clear by labeling the interfaces in the figure (e.g., a, b, c= ...) and then describe each arrow explicitly? * Still on Figure 1: As an architecture figure, this one omits how coupled = congestion control interacts with congestion control all together. My pref= erence would be to also see in this figure a box representing the coupled-c= c algorithm (e.g., those described in Sec. 5.3) and another set of boxes re= presenting the individual cc algorithm (e.g., NADA/GCC), as well as arrows = showing how information flows from one to the other. * Again regarding Figure 1: it is mentioned in the text right below that t= his assumes a single host. Does this entire document follow that assumption= ? If so it may make sense to state that assumption even earlier in the tex= t, maybe in Introduction? Or, if the document potentially applies to mult= iple streams hosted by different physical senders (if I remember from previ= ous discussions on this draft, that would be quite a tricky situation to ha= ndle), the authors can add a paragraph somewhere (maybe in Limitations?) to= discuss implications of that extended scenario. * Section 5.1 SBD: currently discussions of the tradeoff in various method = of shared bottleneck detection only covers multiplexing-based and measureme= nt-based. Anything the authors want to mention regarding configuration-bas= ed approach? Best, Xiaoqing ________________________________ From: rmcat on behalf of Anna Brunstrom Sent: Friday, September 23, 2016 4:53 AM To: rmcat@ietf.org Subject: [rmcat] RMCAT WGLC: draft-ietf-rmcat-coupled-cc-03: still acceptin= g comments Hi all, As we did not get many reviews, we are extending the period for comments on= this draft until Sunday. Please note that all types of feedback is useful. The announcement for SCReAM will follow on Monday. BR, Anna On 2016-09-07 01:03, Anna Brunstrom wrote: This email announces a RMCAT Working Group Last Call (WGLC) on: Coupled congestion control for RTP media draft-ietf-rmcat-coupled-cc-03 This WGLC will run for 2 weeks, ending at midnight US Eastern Time on Wedne= sday, September 21. Comments should be sent to the rmcat@ietf.org list, although purely editorial comments may be sent directl= y to the authors at draft-ietf-rmcat-coupled-cc@ietf.org - if doing so, please cc: the WG chairs at rmcat= -chairs@tools.ietf.org. We are looking for at least a couple of reviews during WGLC, so please help= review the document. Thanks, Anna & Martin --_000_147487697611884485ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi, 

I have read through the draft, and consider it to be in good shape overa= ll.  In particular, the descriptions in Sec. 6.1 regarding what inform= ation exchange is needed for making coupled congestion control work fo= r NADA is clear. 


Below are some further suggestions, mainly with the intention to further improve a reader's understand o= f merits of this work. 


* In both abstract and introduction section, will be nice to explicitly = point out what type of benefit one may expect from adopting coupled co= ngestion control, instead of vaguely stating that "... behavior is imp= roved". It became clearly later in the text that benefits may be in the form of reduced queuing delay and packet losse= s. Will be nice to call those out earlier in the draft as well.


* In Introduction, end of first paragraph, it is stated that the effect = (of undesirable queuing delay) "is amplified when multiple congestion = controlled connections traverse the same network bottleneck".  Wh= y is the effect "amplified"?  It does not seem to be immediately clear to me (maybe only me?). 


* Section 3, Limitations:  "... to eventually decide the trans= mission rate" =3D> "... to eventually decide on the transmissi= on rate"


* Section 4, Architecture Overview:  Can Figure 1 be a bit more spe= cific in terms of what input/output each module takes?   The text prov= ides some examples (e.g., that arrow from SBD to FSE denotes = ;the Flow State Identifiers), but it was a bit hard to follow in conjunction with the figure.  Maybe it will be more clear by label= ing the interfaces in the figure (e.g., a, b, c ...) and then describe each= arrow explicitly?


* Still on Figure 1: As an architecture figure, this one omits how coupl= ed congestion control interacts with congestion control all together.  = ;My preference would be to also see in this figure a box representing = the coupled-cc algorithm (e.g., those described in Sec. 5.3) and another set of boxes representing the individual cc algor= ithm (e.g., NADA/GCC), as well as arrows showing how information flows from= one to the other. 


* Again regarding Figure 1:  it is mentioned in the text right belo= w that this assumes a single host. Does this entire document follow th= at assumption?  If so it may make sense to state that assumption even = earlier in the text, maybe in Introduction?   Or, if the document potentially applies to multiple streams hosted b= y different physical senders (if I remember from previous discussions on th= is draft, that would be quite a tricky situation to handle), the authors ca= n add a paragraph somewhere (maybe in Limitations?) to discuss implications of that extended scenario.


* Section 5.1 SBD: currently discussions of the tradeoff in various= method of shared bottleneck detection only covers multiplexing-based and m= easurement-based.  Anything the authors want to mention regarding conf= iguration-based approach?


Best,

Xiaoqing


From: rmcat <rmcat-bounc= es@ietf.org> on behalf of Anna Brunstrom <anna.brunstrom@kau.se> Sent: Friday, September 23, 2016 4:53 AM
To: rmcat@ietf.org
Subject: [rmcat] RMCAT WGLC: draft-ietf-rmcat-coupled-cc-03: still a= ccepting comments
 

Hi all,

As we did not get many reviews, we are extending the period for comments= on this draft until Sunday. Please note that all types of feedback is usef= ul.

The announcement for SCReAM will follow on Monday.

BR,
Anna


On 2016-09-07 01:03, Anna Brunstrom wrote:

This email announces a RMCAT Working Group Last Call (WGLC) on:

Coupled congestion control for RTP media
d= raft-ietf-rmcat-coupled-cc-03

This WGLC will run for 2 weeks, ending at midnight US Eastern Time on We= dnesday, September 21.  Comments should be sent to the rmcat@= ietf.org list, although purely editorial comments may be sent directly = to the authors at draft-ietf-rmcat-coupled-cc@ietf.org - if doing so, please cc: the WG c= hairs at rmcat-chairs@tools.ietf.org.

We are looking for at least a couple of reviews during WGLC, so please h= elp review the document.

Thanks,
Anna & Martin



--_000_147487697611884485ciscocom_-- From nobody Mon Sep 26 05:28:23 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rmcat@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rmcat@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D51BD12B1AC for ; Mon, 26 Sep 2016 05:28:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.515 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.515 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-2.316] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id S3rLgz4chSun for ; Mon, 26 Sep 2016 05:28:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-out5.uio.no (mail-out5.uio.no [IPv6:2001:700:100:10::17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 13B2712B1A4 for ; Mon, 26 Sep 2016 05:28:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-mx1.uio.no ([129.240.10.29]) by mail-out5.uio.no with esmtp (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1boV17-0001dJ-1u; Mon, 26 Sep 2016 14:28:17 +0200 Received: from mail-ex02.exprod.uio.no ([129.240.52.5]) by mail-mx1.uio.no with esmtps (TLSv1.2:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1boV16-0001aK-44; Mon, 26 Sep 2016 14:28:16 +0200 Received: from mail-ex04.exprod.uio.no (2001:700:100:52::7) by mail-ex02.exprod.uio.no (2001:700:100:52::5) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1178.4; Mon, 26 Sep 2016 14:28:15 +0200 Received: from mail-ex04.exprod.uio.no ([fe80::5da2:f347:6a4b:effc]) by mail-ex04.exprod.uio.no ([fe80::5da2:f347:6a4b:effc%19]) with mapi id 15.00.1178.000; Mon, 26 Sep 2016 14:28:15 +0200 From: Safiqul Islam To: Xiaoqing Zhu Thread-Topic: [rmcat] Review of draft-ietf-rmcat-coupled-cc-03 Thread-Index: AQHSF8xrJ/+A3/1ZCkKPptF7DEtwh6CLkcqA Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2016 12:28:14 +0000 Message-ID: References: <61fd6536-366b-e3c9-0d76-162059d74a54@kau.se> <42edeb66-6bd9-cba8-9bd9-dc8c1980ba1d@kau.se> <1474876976118.84485@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <1474876976118.84485@cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [129.240.169.59] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_D7786F9EA4CE429CAB21B523FA7D2136ifiuiono_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-UiO-SPF-Received: X-UiO-Ratelimit-Test: rcpts/h 3 msgs/h 1 sum rcpts/h 3 sum msgs/h 1 total rcpts 2774 max rcpts/h 24 ratelimit 0 X-UiO-Spam-info: not spam, SpamAssassin (score=-6.2, required=5.0, autolearn=disabled, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.21, UIO_MAIL_IS_INTERNAL=-5, uiobl=NO, uiouri=NO) X-UiO-Scanned: 692D9776F5A61B3A2B65FC03D1AD185284F625D0 X-UiO-SPAM-Test: remote_host: 129.240.52.5 spam_score: -61 maxlevel 80 minaction 2 bait 0 mail/h: 173 total 1814477 max/h 1401 blacklist 0 greylist 0 ratelimit 0 X-UiOonly: 1EAFA46AE8F57D04E32E4C7972769E8D270F9EA4 Archived-At: Cc: "rmcat@ietf.org WG" , Michael Welzl , "anna.brunstrom@kau.se" , Stein Gjessing Subject: Re: [rmcat] Review of draft-ietf-rmcat-coupled-cc-03 X-BeenThere: rmcat@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "RTP Media Congestion Avoidance Techniques \(RMCAT\) Working Group discussion list." 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id u8R54MQu000902 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 27 Sep 2016 05:04:22 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-016.cisco.com (173.37.102.26) by XCH-RCD-018.cisco.com (173.37.102.28) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1210.3; Tue, 27 Sep 2016 00:04:21 -0500 Received: from xch-rcd-016.cisco.com ([173.37.102.26]) by XCH-RCD-016.cisco.com ([173.37.102.26]) with mapi id 15.00.1210.000; Tue, 27 Sep 2016 00:04:21 -0500 From: "Xiaoqing Zhu (xiaoqzhu)" To: Safiqul Islam Thread-Topic: [rmcat] Review of draft-ietf-rmcat-coupled-cc-03 Thread-Index: AQHSF8d3H8ZGmp5PT0+qTZf8ESW8VKCMBykAgADCWv0= Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2016 05:04:21 +0000 Message-ID: <1474952661825.64052@cisco.com> References: <61fd6536-366b-e3c9-0d76-162059d74a54@kau.se> <42edeb66-6bd9-cba8-9bd9-dc8c1980ba1d@kau.se> <1474876976118.84485@cisco.com>, In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.24.25.142] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_147495266182564052ciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "rmcat@ietf.org WG" , Michael Welzl , "anna.brunstrom@kau.se" , Stein Gjessing Subject: Re: [rmcat] Review of draft-ietf-rmcat-coupled-cc-03 X-BeenThere: rmcat@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "RTP Media Congestion Avoidance Techniques \(RMCAT\) Working Group discussion list." 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Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <147501491296.11800.9052882135085623172.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2016 15:21:52 -0700 Archived-At: Cc: rmcat-chairs@ietf.org, ietf@kuehlewind.net, anna.brunstrom@kau.se, rmcat@ietf.org Subject: [rmcat] rmcat - New Meeting Session Request for IETF 97 X-BeenThere: rmcat@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 List-Id: "RTP Media Congestion Avoidance Techniques \(RMCAT\) Working Group discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2016 22:21:53 -0000 A new meeting session request has just been submitted by Anna Brunstrom, a Chair of the rmcat working group. --------------------------------------------------------- Working Group Name: RTP Media Congestion Avoidance Techniques Area Name: Transport Area Session Requester: Anna Brunstrom Number of Sessions: 1 Length of Session(s): 2.5 Hours Number of Attendees: 60 Conflicts to Avoid: First Priority: rtcweb avtcore avtext tcpinc tcpm aqm taps tsvarea tsvwg iccrg maprg netvc perc mptcp Second Priority: tram mmusic ippm clue raiarea dispatch httpbis Third Priority: irtfopen Special Requests: Avoid transport BOFs. --------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Wed Sep 28 00:37:47 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rmcat@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rmcat@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0489D12B2C9; Wed, 28 Sep 2016 00:37:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.216 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.216 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-2.316] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JZeQ-BvFzffB; Wed, 28 Sep 2016 00:37:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-out01.uio.no (mail-out01.uio.no [IPv6:2001:700:100:10::50]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 46D8912B08D; Wed, 28 Sep 2016 00:37:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-mx3.uio.no ([129.240.10.44]) by mail-out01.uio.no with esmtp (Exim 4.82_1-5b7a7c0-XX) (envelope-from ) id 1bp9Qy-0005ha-Iy; Wed, 28 Sep 2016 09:37:40 +0200 Received: from boomerang.ifi.uio.no ([129.240.68.135]) by mail-mx3.uio.no with esmtpsa (TLSv1:DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA:256) user michawe (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1bp9Qx-0007yr-R2; Wed, 28 Sep 2016 09:37:40 +0200 From: Michael Welzl Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2016 09:37:39 +0200 References: To: rmcat WG , tsvwg@ietf.org Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2104\)) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2104) X-UiO-SPF-Received: X-UiO-Ratelimit-Test: rcpts/h 7 msgs/h 2 sum rcpts/h 8 sum msgs/h 3 total rcpts 46761 max rcpts/h 54 ratelimit 0 X-UiO-Spam-info: not spam, SpamAssassin (score=-6.2, required=5.0, autolearn=disabled, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.203, UIO_MAIL_IS_INTERNAL=-5, uiobl=NO, uiouri=NO) X-UiO-Scanned: D671F488FA494314623AAC3B4AD89AD81D76462C X-UiO-SPAM-Test: remote_host: 129.240.68.135 spam_score: -61 maxlevel 80 minaction 2 bait 0 mail/h: 2 total 11222 max/h 21 blacklist 0 greylist 0 ratelimit 0 Archived-At: Subject: [rmcat] =?utf-8?q?Fwd=3A_=5Brtcweb=5D_Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind=27s_No?= =?utf-8?q?_Objection_on_draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-15=3A_=28with_COMMEN?= =?utf-8?q?T=29?= X-BeenThere: rmcat@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "RTP Media Congestion Avoidance Techniques \(RMCAT\) Working Group discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2016 07:37:45 -0000 FYI: I'm forwarding this to RMCAT and TSVWG because I believe people in = these groups may have opinions on this matter. I didn't put the groups in cc to limit cross-posting - so I guess it's = best to direct comments to the rtcweb group. Cheers, Michael > Begin forwarded message: >=20 > From: Michael Welzl > Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Mirja K=C3=BChlewind's No Objection on = draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-15: (with COMMENT) > Date: 28 Sep 2016 09:35:40 CEST > To: Mirja Kuehlewind > Cc: The IESG , RTCWeb IETF , = rtcweb-chairs@ietf.org, draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports@ietf.org >=20 > Dear all, >=20 > Sorry for re-opening this discussion at such a late stage, but, by way = of agreeing with Mirja's comment below that the document should say more = about congestion control, I still find it very strange that the text = does not cite draft-ietf-rmcat-coupled-cc. >=20 > Mirja mentions draft-ietf-rmcat-cc-requirements-09, and I agree that = this should be cited, but this requirements document is also generic and = does not provide much concrete guidance on how to implement things - so = I'd say it's not enough. >=20 > draft-ietf-rmcat-coupled-cc-03 is now in WGLC and has so far only = received editorial comments. We have lots of proof that this mechanism = works very well; whenever it's known that flows share a bottleneck (as = is the case for all rtcweb streams between the same hosts), this allows = to precisely divide bandwidth among flows based on priorities, and it = yields overall lower latency due to reduced on-the-wire competition = (well in line with the first requirement laid out in = draft-ietf-rmcat-cc-requirements-09). Using the DSCP may protect against = other traffic but it's also just hoping for routers to do the right = thing. I think that possibilities should be laid out to people intending = to implement rtcweb. >=20 > Maybe the goal was to avoid a dependency on specific RMCAT congestion = controls; I can understand that, but the algorithm in = draft-ietf-rmcat-coupled-cc, while containing sections explaining how to = apply it to NADA and GCC, is pretty generic and can be quite easily = adapted for other controls (as we've successfully done). Accordingly, = the draft presents the algorithm as the generic thing that it is. >=20 > I brought this missing citation issue up in the past, and it was = addressed, but IMO very weakly: >=20 > *** >> The issue is addressed, but not as you suggested - after taking = advice >> from the chairs, I did not reference "coupled" directly, instead >> choosing to reference RFC 7657 and mentioning that it contained = advice >> on congestion control. >>=20 >> I also changed one occurence of "the same congestion controller" to = "the >> same congstion control regime", so that this document was neutral = about >> whether there was one or multiple congestion controllers. >>=20 >> Details at https://github.com/rtcweb-wg/rtcweb-transport/issues/16 > *** >=20 > Specifically, let us consider this statement at this URL: >=20 > *** > @fluffy I regard the mention of coupled CC as mostly "pointless but = harmless". The initial decision to mention a single controller was to = mention only the most restricted case; if the chairs think extending = this to coupled CC is OK, I don't have any strong reason to push back = against it. >=20 > The extensive use of "common (coupled)" in RFC 7657 is (in my opinion) = a mistake; these two are not the same thing, and I can't see that RFC = 7657 is really clear about the difference. > *** >=20 > Why is it pointless to tell folks who implement rtcweb protocols that = this is a possible mechanism to use, and point them directly at it? > I also don't understand the "mistake" about the extensive use of = "common (coupled)" in RFC 7657: the outcome is almost identical (again, = we have lots of graphs using various congestion controls to prove my = point), so what's the problem? >=20 > To me, it's very strange and inconsistent that = draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-15 points at draft-ietf-tsvwg-rtcweb-qos = for concrete implementation guidance, but doesn't point at = draft-ietf-rmcat-coupled-cc for the same; it talks about the possibility = of having "multiple streams that are congestion-controlled under the = same congestion control regime" but it doesn't give any hint about how = to do that (which is what a pointer to draft-ietf-rmcat-coupled-cc would = achieve). >=20 > Cheers, > Michael >=20 >=20 >=20 >> On 04 Aug 2016, at 15:58, Mirja Kuehlewind = wrote: >>=20 >> Mirja K=C3=BChlewind has entered the following ballot position for >> draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports-15: No Objection >>=20 >> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all >> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut = this >> introductory paragraph, however.) >>=20 >>=20 >> Please refer to = https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html >> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. >>=20 >>=20 >> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-rtcweb-transports/ >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> = ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> COMMENT: >> = ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>=20 >> Thanks for updating! >>=20 >> Leaving it to this comment: >> Based on the TSV review I agree that this document (named "Transports = for >> WebRTC") should say more about congestion control. The TSV reviewer >> (Thanks Allison!) proposes to refer >> draft-ietf-avtcore-rtp-circuit-breakers-17 and >> draft-ietf-rmcat-cc-requirements-09. I would even appreciate to have = a=20 >> sentence that says that congestion control and a circuit breaker is >> mandated in draft-ietf-rtcweb-rtp-usage-26. >>=20 >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> rtcweb mailing list >> rtcweb@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb >=20 From nobody Thu Sep 29 13:03:26 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rmcat@ietf.org Delivered-To: rmcat@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10991126B6D; Thu, 29 Sep 2016 13:03:24 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "\"IETF Meeting Session Request Tool\"" To: X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.34.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <147517940402.18652.2201634479683168427.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2016 13:03:24 -0700 Archived-At: Cc: rmcat-chairs@ietf.org, ietf@kuehlewind.net, anna.brunstrom@kau.se, rmcat@ietf.org Subject: [rmcat] rmcat - Update to a Meeting Session Request for IETF 97 X-BeenThere: rmcat@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 List-Id: "RTP Media Congestion Avoidance Techniques \(RMCAT\) Working Group discussion list." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2016 20:03:24 -0000 An update to a meeting session request has just been submitted by Anna Brunstrom, a Chair of the rmcat working group. --------------------------------------------------------- Working Group Name: RTP Media Congestion Avoidance Techniques Area Name: Transport Area Session Requester: Anna Brunstrom Number of Sessions: 1 Length of Session(s): 2.5 Hours Number of Attendees: 60 Conflicts to Avoid: First Priority: rtcweb avtcore avtext tcpinc tcpm aqm quic taps tsvarea tsvwg iccrg maprg netvc perc mptcp Second Priority: tram mmusic ippm clue raiarea dispatch httpbis Third Priority: irtfopen Special Requests: Avoid transport BOFs. ---------------------------------------------------------