From owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Thu Sep 01 02:12:48 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EAiJc-0001nY-BA for usefor-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 01 Sep 2005 02:12:48 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA25307 for ; Thu, 1 Sep 2005 02:12:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j8169j1l094257; Wed, 31 Aug 2005 23:09:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j8169j0J094256; Wed, 31 Aug 2005 23:09:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j8169gYt094249 for ; Wed, 31 Aug 2005 23:09:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1EAiFC-0000wX-K5 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Thu, 01 Sep 2005 08:08:14 +0200 Received: from c-134-88-106.hh.dial.de.ignite.net ([62.134.88.106]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 01 Sep 2005 08:08:14 +0200 Received: from nobody by c-134-88-106.hh.dial.de.ignite.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Thu, 01 Sep 2005 08:08:14 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Frank Ellermann Subject: Re: #1047 Path field delimiters and syntax - status Date: Thu, 01 Sep 2005 08:06:35 +0200 Organization: Lines: 12 Message-ID: <43169A6B.6839@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <572CD0E1D0957B0EFAD23738@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-134-88-106.hh.dial.de.ignite.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: > I stand by "idiocy". | Note: THE USE OF DOMAIN-LITERALS IS STRONGLY DISCOURAGED. Here's "Tough consensus", not only 10 years, STD 11 was 1982. The 2822 syntax is (almost) perfect, but its semantics is sometimes a bit vague. Bye, Frank From owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Fri Sep 02 11:27:51 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EBDSH-0000Cw-DS for usefor-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 02 Sep 2005 11:27:51 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA13655 for ; Fri, 2 Sep 2005 11:27:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j82FQE39024614; Fri, 2 Sep 2005 08:26:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j82FQE9B024613; Fri, 2 Sep 2005 08:26:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from colo.khms.westfalen.de (Debian-exim@colo.khms.westfalen.de [213.239.196.208]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j82FQC6g024605 for ; Fri, 2 Sep 2005 08:26:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kaih@khms.westfalen.de) Received: from khms.vpn ([10.172.192.2]:37260 helo=khms.westfalen.de ident=Debian-exim) by colo.khms.westfalen.de with esmtpsa (TLS-1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA:32) (auth_id=khms) (Exim 4.50) id 1EBDP0-0003aH-NF for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Fri, 02 Sep 2005 17:24:26 +0200 Received: from root (helo=khms.westfalen.de) by khms.westfalen.de with local-bsmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1EBDOx-0002Ch-Cw for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Fri, 02 Sep 2005 17:24:23 +0200 Received: by khms.westfalen.de (CrossPoint v3.12d.kh15 R/C435); 02 Sep 2005 17:04:36 +0200 Date: 02 Sep 2005 11:26:00 +0200 From: kaih@khms.westfalen.de (Kai Henningsen) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Message-ID: <9d4SRQx1w-B@khms.westfalen.de> In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: #1047 Path field delimiters and syntax - status X-Mailer: CrossPoint v3.12d.kh15 R/C435 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Organization: Organisation? Me?! Are you kidding? References: <9cVjEdBHw-B@khms.westfalen.de> <9cVjEdBHw-B@khms.westfalen.de> X-No-Junk-Mail: I do not want to get *any* junk mail. Comment: Unsolicited commercial mail will incur an US$100 handling fee per received mail. X-Fix-Your-Modem: +++ATS2=255&WO1 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: henry@spsystems.net (Henry Spencer) wrote on 24.08.05 in : > On 24 Aug 2005, Kai Henningsen wrote: > > But if you're doing news propagation and the intermediate site is supposed > > to see the article, it goes through rnews - which, in the case of INN, > > does NNTP, I believe, though not necessarily over IP, and thus certainly > > checks. I expect C news did similar stuff. > > C News went the opposite route: where all INN's incoming paths ultimately > go via NNTP, all of C News's ultimately went via a disk spool area (very > much in the style of UUCP). The injection path did rigorous checking and > fixups (e.g. adding Date) on user-posted articles before dropping them in > the spool area. The UUCP and NNTP incoming paths dropped data in the > spool area without examining it. The server/relayer code picked up from > the spool area, and for speed, did only the most basic sanity checks -- > superficial parse of all the headers, check for presence of mandatory > headers, detailed parse only for headers it actually cared about. But those "most basic sanity checks" are - from what you say - exactly the same as NNTP does. MfG Kai From owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Fri Sep 02 11:36:55 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EBDb4-0004cQ-Nv for usefor-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 02 Sep 2005 11:36:55 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA14108 for ; Fri, 2 Sep 2005 11:36:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j82FZOJV025451; Fri, 2 Sep 2005 08:35:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j82FZOr5025450; Fri, 2 Sep 2005 08:35:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from colo.khms.westfalen.de (Debian-exim@colo.khms.westfalen.de [213.239.196.208]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j82FZNxf025444 for ; Fri, 2 Sep 2005 08:35:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kaih@khms.westfalen.de) Received: from khms.vpn ([10.172.192.2]:37517 helo=khms.westfalen.de ident=Debian-exim) by colo.khms.westfalen.de with esmtpsa (TLS-1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA:32) (auth_id=khms) (Exim 4.50) id 1EBDXh-0003qK-SA for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Fri, 02 Sep 2005 17:33:26 +0200 Received: from root (helo=khms.westfalen.de) by khms.westfalen.de with local-bsmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1EBDOx-0002Ch-Kv for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Fri, 02 Sep 2005 17:24:24 +0200 Received: by khms.westfalen.de (CrossPoint v3.12d.kh15 R/C435); 02 Sep 2005 17:04:36 +0200 Date: 02 Sep 2005 12:22:00 +0200 From: kaih@khms.westfalen.de (Kai Henningsen) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Message-ID: <9d4SRcXXw-B@khms.westfalen.de> In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: #1047 Path field delimiters and syntax - status X-Mailer: CrossPoint v3.12d.kh15 R/C435 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Organization: Organisation? Me?! Are you kidding? References: <200508211145.38612@mail.blilly.com> <200508211145.38612@mail.blilly.com> X-No-Junk-Mail: I do not want to get *any* junk mail. Comment: Unsolicited commercial mail will incur an US$100 handling fee per received mail. X-Fix-Your-Modem: +++ATS2=255&WO1 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: richard@highwayman.com (Richard Clayton) wrote on 21.08.05 in : > BTW: Usenet is not all that big -- I identified 2556 servers as being > part of a "peering core" (from my vantage point). The other 8500 > machines were merely feeding into that core. > > The algorithm was to start from 'news.maxwell.syr.edu' and see if any > article arrived that had been given any articles by this machine. If so > then they were added to the core and a check made to see if there were > now other machines to which articles had been given... iterate. > > Looking now at those 2556 servers -- which are, at least from my vantage > point, somewhat more important than the rest -- I find that 218 of them > have chosen to use an identity that is a bare word, and I'd say that > half of those look to be UUCP names. To get an impression of how fully you saw the periphery of the net, can you tell me how many (or which) westfalen.de machines you found? MfG Kai From owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Fri Sep 02 12:37:24 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EBEXc-0000OC-5F for usefor-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 02 Sep 2005 12:37:24 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA16801 for ; Fri, 2 Sep 2005 12:37:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j82GaHsJ032501; Fri, 2 Sep 2005 09:36:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j82GaHpj032500; Fri, 2 Sep 2005 09:36:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from anchor-post-30.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-30.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.88]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j82GaG9S032492 for ; Fri, 2 Sep 2005 09:36:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from richard@highwayman.com) Received: from gti.noc.demon.net ([195.11.55.101] helo=happyday.al.cl.cam.ac.uk) by anchor-post-30.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 4.42) id 1EBEWV-000Lc0-0F for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Fri, 02 Sep 2005 16:36:15 +0000 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 17:34:44 +0100 To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Richard Clayton Subject: Re: #1047 Path field delimiters and syntax - status References: <200508211145.38612@mail.blilly.com> <200508211145.38612@mail.blilly.com> <9d4SRcXXw-B@khms.westfalen.de> In-Reply-To: <9d4SRcXXw-B@khms.westfalen.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike Integrated Version 5.02 M Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 In message <9d4SRcXXw-B@khms.westfalen.de>, Kai Henningsen writes > >richard@highwayman.com (Richard Clayton) wrote on 21.08.05 in @highwayman.com>: > >> The algorithm was to start from 'news.maxwell.syr.edu' and see if any >> article arrived that had been given any articles by this machine. If so >> then they were added to the core and a check made to see if there were >> now other machines to which articles had been given... iterate. > >To get an impression of how fully you saw the periphery of the net, can >you tell me how many (or which) westfalen.de machines you found? core path identities (I've no idea what a "machine" is) colo.khms.westfalen.de silvana.westfalen.de westfalen.de other path identities that sent messages to machines in the core dl6dx.westfalen.de ripley.westfalen.de news.khms.westfalen.de recall that this was July->October 2004 - -- richard Richard Clayton They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPsdk version 1.7.1 iQA/AwUBQxh/JJoAxkTY1oPiEQJZAACg725O/xlEUcD1k8Kd9UurLZ+NxxAAn0hP TItRoKbhcdA2OfT4Pz2DRkPp =7TDT -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Sat Sep 03 13:34:36 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EBbuW-0002g6-MV for usefor-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 03 Sep 2005 13:34:36 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA16487 for ; Sat, 3 Sep 2005 13:34:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j83HXIgT099144; Sat, 3 Sep 2005 10:33:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j83HXIFL099143; Sat, 3 Sep 2005 10:33:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from colo.khms.westfalen.de (Debian-exim@colo.khms.westfalen.de [213.239.196.208]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j83HXH3N099136 for ; Sat, 3 Sep 2005 10:33:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kaih@khms.westfalen.de) Received: from khms.vpn ([10.172.192.2]:57495 helo=khms.westfalen.de ident=Debian-exim) by colo.khms.westfalen.de with esmtpsa (TLS-1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA:32) (auth_id=khms) (Exim 4.50) id 1EBbtE-0000Q8-JP for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Sat, 03 Sep 2005 19:33:16 +0200 Received: from root (helo=khms.westfalen.de) by khms.westfalen.de with local-bsmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1EBbUO-0006Me-6f for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Sat, 03 Sep 2005 19:07:36 +0200 Received: by khms.westfalen.de (CrossPoint v3.12d.kh15 R/C435); 03 Sep 2005 18:50:13 +0200 Date: 03 Sep 2005 14:21:00 +0200 From: kaih@khms.westfalen.de (Kai Henningsen) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Message-ID: <9dBx55rXw-B@khms.westfalen.de> In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: #1047 Path field delimiters and syntax - status X-Mailer: CrossPoint v3.12d.kh15 R/C435 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Organization: Organisation? Me?! Are you kidding? References: <9d4SRcXXw-B@khms.westfalen.de> <9d4SRcXXw-B@khms.westfalen.de> X-No-Junk-Mail: I do not want to get *any* junk mail. Comment: Unsolicited commercial mail will incur an US$100 handling fee per received mail. X-Fix-Your-Modem: +++ATS2=255&WO1 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: richard@highwayman.com (Richard Clayton) wrote on 02.09.05 in : > In message <9d4SRcXXw-B@khms.westfalen.de>, Kai Henningsen > writes > > > >richard@highwayman.com (Richard Clayton) wrote on 21.08.05 in > >: > > > >> The algorithm was to start from 'news.maxwell.syr.edu' and see if any > >> article arrived that had been given any articles by this machine. If so > >> then they were added to the core and a check made to see if there were > >> now other machines to which articles had been given... iterate. > > > >To get an impression of how fully you saw the periphery of the net, can > >you tell me how many (or which) westfalen.de machines you found? > > core path identities (I've no idea what a "machine" is) > > colo.khms.westfalen.de > silvana.westfalen.de > westfalen.de > > other path identities that sent messages to machines in the core > > dl6dx.westfalen.de > ripley.westfalen.de > news.khms.westfalen.de > > recall that this was July->October 2004 Those are in fact all different machines :-) (khms.westfalen.de would be the same as news.khms.westfalen.de, but you don't list it.) I wouldn't have expected to see any of those in "core" ... on the other hand, I'd have expected to see khms.westfalen.de in the lower group; I certainly posted quite some articles during that time! MfG Kai From owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Sun Sep 04 23:05:21 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EC7IP-0008JU-CO for usefor-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 04 Sep 2005 23:05:21 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA08802 for ; Sun, 4 Sep 2005 23:05:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j850tQsX038966; Sun, 4 Sep 2005 17:55:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j850tQTs038965; Sun, 4 Sep 2005 17:55:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j850tPvS038959 for ; Sun, 4 Sep 2005 17:55:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from harald@alvestrand.no) Received: from localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C99232008D for ; Mon, 5 Sep 2005 02:55:03 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 28642-06 for ; Mon, 5 Sep 2005 02:54:57 +0200 (CEST) Received: from halvestr-w2k02.emea.cisco.com (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04BCD320088 for ; Mon, 5 Sep 2005 02:54:56 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 05 Sep 2005 02:54:49 +0200 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Polll results on injection-info, and some thought on progress Message-ID: <4908E0CCAE17394C8BEB2BF7@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.3 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="==========4D56A7C1E62D35512DD8==========" X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at alvestrand.no Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: --==========4D56A7C1E62D35512DD8========== Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable OK, here's our result on injection-info. A total of 3 people answered. Possible conclusions: - The rest doesn't really care about this bit - The group is tired and doesn't want to form more opinions I can certainly believe tiredness. I did not make the timeline I suggested, = and have severely underestimated the amount of time and energy it takes me=20 to get even proposed closure on issues. In terms of value for energy spent, closing the group may be a better=20 alternative. But I'll make one more round of trying to close things. On this poll, the results are: 1) SHOULD THERE BE SUBSTANTIAL CHANGES TO INJECTION-INFO? 1a) No, we should keep approximately the current syntax Charles Lindsey 1b) Yes, we should pick a substantially different solution Frank Ellermann 1c) None of the above No consensus. 2) IF SUBSTANTIAL CHANGES ARE MADE, WHAT FORM SHOULD IT BE? 2a) Multiple header fields 2b) A single header field with a syntax different from the "name=3Dvalue" syntax Frank Ellermann, Charles Lindsey, Russ Allbery Perfect consensus. 3) IF THE SYNTAX IS KEPT, HOW SHOULD WE DESCRIBE IT? 3a) Keep the current definition; it's good enough. 3b) Specify ABNF for a "name=3Dvalue" list, don't refer to "parameter" 3c) Use the "parameter" definition, but add a non-normative description in modern ABNF 3d) Use the "parameter", give an ABNF for each parameter value we define, but don't add an overall ABNF Charles Lindsey (with comments) 3e) Something else Russ Allbery (fix the problem upstream, not here) No consensus. 4) SHOULD THE FIELD ALLOW RFC 2231 CONSTRUCTS? 4a) Yes Charles Lindsey, Russ Allbery 4b) No 4c) Something else Frank Ellermann (langtags in encoded-words only) A tendency towards "yes". --==========4D56A7C1E62D35512DD8========== Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (MingW32) iD8DBQFDG5dZOMj+2+WY0F4RArE6AKDJ8H/QEkhlHKheo7sOxBpHNQvMRgCg0eG3 2m+LsVtAYY6IklnyCJe0O2o= =gxp3 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --==========4D56A7C1E62D35512DD8==========-- From owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Mon Sep 05 00:49:10 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EC8up-0005nz-Kh for usefor-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 05 Sep 2005 00:49:09 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA11382 for ; Mon, 5 Sep 2005 00:49:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j854lq8s055954; Sun, 4 Sep 2005 21:47:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j854lqfS055953; Sun, 4 Sep 2005 21:47:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j854loM0055946 for ; Sun, 4 Sep 2005 21:47:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1EC8rv-0006Nm-QQ for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Mon, 05 Sep 2005 06:46:07 +0200 Received: from du-001-132.access.de.clara.net ([212.82.227.132]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 05 Sep 2005 06:46:07 +0200 Received: from nobody by du-001-132.access.de.clara.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 05 Sep 2005 06:46:07 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Frank Ellermann Subject: Re: Polll results on injection-info, and some thought on progress Date: Mon, 05 Sep 2005 06:40:36 +0200 Organization: Lines: 55 Message-ID: <431BCC44.70D4@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <4908E0CCAE17394C8BEB2BF7@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: du-001-132.access.de.clara.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: > I can certainly believe tiredness. Yes. Actually I started to miss your weekly "open ticket" summary, and considered to create / post a new version, but Charles said he's away for some days, therefore I picked something else on my "todo" list (2821bis ABNF). > In terms of value for energy spent, closing the group may > be a better alternative. While that's an option I'd hate it if the Injection-Info makes it as USEFOR-showstopper: > 1a) No, we should keep approximately the current syntax > Charles Lindsey > 1b) Yes, we should pick a substantially different solution > Frank Ellermann [...] > No consensus. That's a strange result, I wanted to support Bruce's idea. Without the proponent (Bruce) that makes no sense. Unlike the Message-ID syntax I don't have any "different solution" for Injection-Info (or rather my own proposal didn't work as expected). Bruce and Charles claim to have something that works. If Bruce isn't interested anymore to work out the details I'm forced to withdraw my "1B". What you then get is Charles for "1A", whatever that is, at least it's not "no consensus". > 2b) A single header field with a syntax different from > the "name=value" syntax > Frank Ellermann, Charles Lindsey, Russ Allbery > Perfect consensus. If we'd follow Bruce's idea, we'll follow Bruce's idea ;-) For a "perfect consensus" I miss at least Bruce here. The weird Injection-Info shouldn't be the reason to close the WG. Compared with vs. it's not relevant enough, above all it's new, we could also move it to a separate document (even "experimental"). That is an excessively cowardly idea, but if the WG fails after what - six (?) - years that should be for a solid reason like "2822 considered too broad for news by some but not all", not "2231 considered too gibbous for news". Bye, Frank From owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Mon Sep 05 01:59:07 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ECA0X-0005QN-CR for usefor-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 05 Sep 2005 01:59:07 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA14188 for ; Mon, 5 Sep 2005 01:59:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j855u851061708; Sun, 4 Sep 2005 22:56:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j855u8Q6061707; Sun, 4 Sep 2005 22:56:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j855u5Ql061701 for ; Sun, 4 Sep 2005 22:56:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1EC9wP-00034g-HI for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Mon, 05 Sep 2005 07:54:50 +0200 Received: from du-001-132.access.de.clara.net ([212.82.227.132]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 05 Sep 2005 07:54:49 +0200 Received: from nobody by du-001-132.access.de.clara.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Mon, 05 Sep 2005 07:54:49 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Frank Ellermann Subject: Re: Polll results on injection-info, and some thought on progress Date: Mon, 05 Sep 2005 07:53:11 +0200 Organization: Lines: 46 Message-ID: <431BDD47.45A5@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <4908E0CCAE17394C8BEB2BF7@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <431BCC44.70D4@xyzzy.claranet.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: du-001-132.access.de.clara.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit [...] > Actually I started to miss your weekly "open ticket" > summary, and considered to create / post a new version It's apparently down again, only the http-intro works from my POV - not the https pages. Ticket states as I remember them: #1046 2822/2231 MIME security considerations was "text needed" but could be "text proposed". ????? date-ABNF: typo in 3.1.2, s/from/orig-date/ ????? Path: Use Harald's idea "name required" to get rid of IP problems (BTW, 2821bis proposes HELO FQDN, plus SHOULD NOT crap only for EHLO) ????? Path: Finish the "diagnostic" syntax, and for perfectionists maybe split FQDN (dots, toplabel, no underscore) from name (no dots, underscores are okay) ????? Message-ID: last state 3:3:1 for vs. vs. 2822-is-fine (= Bruce). That's 6:1 if the production names are ignored. ????? Differences from 1036: use texts as posted in the corresponding thread. #1101 empty body: no support, one proposal to reject #1102 terminology: use UA vs. server in USEFOR (Russ didn't like it, but it's a minor editorial point, no showstopper) ----- (no ticket): Ask Henry to publish s-o-1036 as FYI (or directly as historic like 4156 and 4167 - the latter strategy might need a "last call", unclear) Anything else excl. the known Injection-Info issue ? Bye, Frank #1101: http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.ietf.usenet.format/29979 #1046: http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.ietf.usenet.format/29552 From owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Mon Sep 05 16:14:39 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ECNMV-0005aa-9l for usefor-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 05 Sep 2005 16:14:39 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA02561 for ; Mon, 5 Sep 2005 16:14:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j85K8HQ4050595; Mon, 5 Sep 2005 13:08:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j85K8Hpp050594; Mon, 5 Sep 2005 13:08:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-2.gradwell.net (lon-mail-2.gradwell.net [193.111.201.126]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j85K8Fef050572 for ; Mon, 5 Sep 2005 13:08:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-70-5.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.70.5]) by lon-mail-2.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.190) id 431ca5ae.9ec7.44e for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Mon, 5 Sep 2005 21:08:14 +0100 (envelope-sender ) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j85K6qD05242 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Mon, 5 Sep 2005 21:06:52 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:22475 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" Subject: Re: #1047 Path field delimiters and syntax - status Message-ID: X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <572CD0E1D0957B0EFAD23738@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2005 18:30:16 GMT Lines: 88 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: In <572CD0E1D0957B0EFAD23738@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> Harald Tveit Alvestrand writes: >--On mandag, august 22, 2005 11:58:32 +0000 Charles Lindsey > wrote: >>> Saying that giving a name to your system is REQUIRED by the standards is >>> a Good Thing, and allows us to positively refuse to allow such idiocies >>> as using an IP address to identify your server in injection-info. >> >> Why is it an "idiocy"? We are talking about globally routable IP addresses >> which are allocated according to a very well defined procedure. So, in >> fact, they would actually be safer than "barewords". >RFC 1958 section 4.1: > 4.1 Avoid any design that requires addresses to be hard coded or > stored on non-volatile storage (except of course where this is an > essential requirement as in a name server or configuration server). > In general, user applications should use names rather than addresses. But who said anything about "requiring addresses to be hard coded"? Every internet protocol that I can think of (certainly email and URLs) permits IP addresses in the syntax everywhere that domain-names are allowed. It then goes on to tell you (with varying degrees of firmness) that IP addresses SHOULD NOT be used without good cause (but the protocols MUST still accept them and process them correctly). So indeed, there is no place where they are REQUIRED to be used, but lots of places where they MAY be used (subject to varying degrees of discouragement, as indicated). That is all I am asking for in s. The syntax should _permit_ them (as it will also for "diagnostic" use). But the semantics (in USEPRO) will provide strong discouragement (as it will also do for s). My currently proposed USEPRO text is: s can take the following forms (in decreasing order of preference): 1. A fully qualified domain name (FQDN) associated with an "A" or "AAAA" record identifying that news-server, or with an "MX" record through which its administrators can be contacted; alternatively an equivalent "CNAME". 2. An encoding of the public [RFC 1918], permanently routable IP address - or [RFC 3986] - of that news-server. This option SHOULD NOT be used if an FQDN for that server is available (however, such IP addresses are perfectly suitable for purely diagnostic identities [reference needed to later section]). 3. Some other (arbitrary) name believed to be unique and registered at least with all other news-servers sending articles directly to the given one. This option SHOULD NOT be used unless the earlier options are unavailable (e.g. because the server in question is not connected to the Internet), or unless it is of longstanding usage and cessation would be unduly disruptive, or unless one of the earlier options is provided as well. NOTE: A news-server administrator who chooses a name which turns out not to be unique will have to bear the consequences. NOTE: The syntax permits the colon character (which, prior to this standard, was a ) within any which is in the form of an . It would therefore be unwise to choose, as such a name, anything composed solely from four (or less) hexadecimal digits. [The precise text is up for discussion, of course, and I just noticed that the mention of MX records may need to be toned down.] >That's been an Internet architectural principle for 10 years, and we have >LOTS of experience in what happens when you violate that principle. Whay I am proposing seems exactly in conformance with that architectural principle. >I stand by "idiocy". -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 From owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Mon Sep 05 16:14:41 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ECNMX-0005bv-Rw for usefor-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 05 Sep 2005 16:14:41 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA02565 for ; Mon, 5 Sep 2005 16:14:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j85K8GYY050587; Mon, 5 Sep 2005 13:08:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j85K8GAv050586; Mon, 5 Sep 2005 13:08:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-2.gradwell.net (lon-mail-2.gradwell.net [193.111.201.126]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j85K8EGo050546 for ; Mon, 5 Sep 2005 13:08:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-70-5.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.70.5]) by lon-mail-2.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.190) id 431ca5ad.9ec7.44d for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Mon, 5 Sep 2005 21:08:13 +0100 (envelope-sender ) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j85K6pJ05238 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Mon, 5 Sep 2005 21:06:51 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:22474 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" Subject: Re: #1101 empty body (was: Next steps - please concentrate on USEFOR again) Message-ID: X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <2B6C68CD2D5E9EB908C54320@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <747F1426CCDF2E3F3F42A744@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <4313B1E8.23C6@xyzzy.claranet.de> Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2005 17:25:18 GMT Lines: 75 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: In <4313B1E8.23C6@xyzzy.claranet.de> Frank Ellermann writes: >Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: > [Charles said:] >>> 1. Son-of-1036 said that article bodies SHOULD NOT be empty >>> (it broke some implementations). >>> All our earlier drafts re-iterated that provision. >>> For some reason, it never got into USEFOR (though not >>> including it was never discussed). Please can we decide >>> now whether or not be want to retain that restriction? > >> #1101 >Add this also to appendix B, differences from 1036 ? >Bruce would SCREAM. Let's say that UAs generating >empty bodies without warning are stupid, but servers >or UAs breaking when they meet an article without >body are FUBAR. >Apparently s-o-1036 also doesn't require a body in 4.1 >or 4.3.1, it only talks about "UAs SHOULD warn", okay, >that's USEAGE, not USEFOR. But no, s-o-1036 is much stronger than that. Here are the relevant bits of 4.3.1: The body of an article MAY be empty, although posting agents SHOULD consider this an error condition (meriting returning the article to the poster for revision). A posting agent which does not reject such an article SHOULD issue a warning to the poster and supply a non-empty body. ... NOTE: ... However, some existing news software is known to react badly to body-less articles, hence the request for posting agents to insert a body in such cases. NOTE: A possible posting-agent-supplied body text (already used by one widespread posting agent ) is "This article was probably generated by a buggy news reader". ... The corresponding text in the last of our article-drafts (and indeed in all of them since I don't know when) was: The body of an article SHOULD NOT be empty. A posting or injecting agent which does not reject such an article entirely SHOULD at least issue a warning message to the poster and supply a non-empty body. Note that the separator line MUST be present even if the body is empty. NOTE: Some existing news software is known to react badly to body-less articles, hence the request for posting and injecting agents to insert a body in such cases. The sentence "This article was probably generated by a buggy news reader" has traditionally been used in this situation. >Reject #1101 ? Bye, Frank I think I would like to hear some comment from Henry on this one. It may be that the "some existing news software" referred to can now be considered so ancient that we can ignore it - or maybe it can't. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 From owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Mon Sep 05 16:14:42 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ECNMY-0005c7-2a for usefor-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 05 Sep 2005 16:14:42 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA02566 for ; Mon, 5 Sep 2005 16:14:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j85K8Fm9050573; Mon, 5 Sep 2005 13:08:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j85K8Fcv050567; Mon, 5 Sep 2005 13:08:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-2.gradwell.net (lon-mail-2.gradwell.net [193.111.201.126]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j85K8Bs0050540 for ; Mon, 5 Sep 2005 13:08:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-70-5.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.70.5]) by lon-mail-2.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.190) id 431ca5a9.9ec7.449 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Mon, 5 Sep 2005 21:08:09 +0100 (envelope-sender ) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j85K6se05257 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Mon, 5 Sep 2005 21:06:54 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:22478 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" Subject: Re: #1093 Email addresses - conclusion Message-ID: X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2005 19:15:20 GMT Lines: 34 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: In John Stanley writes: >Harald Tveit Alvestrand : >>It is IN scope for us to discuss this related to USEAGE , but USEAGE is >>not presently on our schedule of things to discuss. >Tell this to Charles, who is posting proposed text for USAGE to initiate >discussion. Harald had said, when giving the results of the poll, than some mention in USEAGE was not precluded. Acting on that, I therefore wrote some USEAGE text, prefacing it with the following: "I have also written the following tentative piece for USEAGE (I think it is useful to prepare a text whilst the matter is fresh in our minds - I will accept comments on it now, but major discussion will come later when USEAGE is fully on topic):" It is clearly defined as "tentative". You can disucss it now, if you like (and as you seem to be doing), but for sure its major scrutiny will come later. I only wrote it so that we would not lose sight of all the details that have arisen in the recent discussions. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 From owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Mon Sep 05 16:14:43 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ECNMZ-0005cJ-2x for usefor-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 05 Sep 2005 16:14:43 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA02570 for ; Mon, 5 Sep 2005 16:14:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j85K8FBG050574; Mon, 5 Sep 2005 13:08:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j85K8FMn050569; Mon, 5 Sep 2005 13:08:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-2.gradwell.net (lon-mail-2.gradwell.net [193.111.201.126]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j85K8C2d050543 for ; Mon, 5 Sep 2005 13:08:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-70-5.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.70.5]) by lon-mail-2.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.190) id 431ca5ab.9ec7.44b for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Mon, 5 Sep 2005 21:08:11 +0100 (envelope-sender ) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j85K6sW05251 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Mon, 5 Sep 2005 21:06:54 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:22477 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" Subject: Re: Polll results on injection-info, and some thought on progress Message-ID: X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <4908E0CCAE17394C8BEB2BF7@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2005 19:01:25 GMT Lines: 59 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: In <4908E0CCAE17394C8BEB2BF7@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> Harald Tveit Alvestrand writes: >On this poll, the results are: >1) SHOULD THERE BE SUBSTANTIAL CHANGES TO INJECTION-INFO? > 1a) No, we should keep approximately the current syntax > Charles Lindsey > 1b) Yes, we should pick a substantially different solution > Frank Ellermann > 1c) None of the above > No consensus. The usual practice in that case is that the status quo remains. I.e. we retain what we currently have (modulo further tuning). >3) IF THE SYNTAX IS KEPT, HOW SHOULD WE DESCRIBE IT? > 3a) Keep the current definition; it's good enough. > 3b) Specify ABNF for a "name=3Dvalue" list, don't refer to > "parameter" > 3c) Use the "parameter" definition, but add a non-normative > description in modern ABNF > 3d) Use the "parameter", give an ABNF for each parameter > value we define, but don't add an overall ABNF > Charles Lindsey (with comments) > 3e) Something else > Russ Allbery (fix the problem upstream, not here) > No consensus. Well at least we have eliminated 3a, 3b and 3c. I.e. there is a problem with the present description that needs to be fixed. But I have not seen Russ's comment (was it posted here?). May we have some explanation of what "fixing upstream" means? >4) SHOULD THE FIELD ALLOW RFC 2231 CONSTRUCTS? > 4a) Yes > Charles Lindsey, Russ Allbery > 4b) No > 4c) Something else > Frank Ellermann (langtags in encoded-words only) > A tendency towards "yes". In which case we should be discussing whether we allow it, but make discouraging noises (mainly about the multi-line stuff, and probably in a NOTE). -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 From owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Mon Sep 05 16:14:47 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ECNMd-0005cu-PJ for usefor-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 05 Sep 2005 16:14:47 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA02577 for ; Mon, 5 Sep 2005 16:14:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j85K8Fvh050575; Mon, 5 Sep 2005 13:08:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j85K8FVb050571; Mon, 5 Sep 2005 13:08:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-2.gradwell.net (lon-mail-2.gradwell.net [193.111.201.126]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j85K8BCe050542 for ; Mon, 5 Sep 2005 13:08:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-70-5.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.70.5]) by lon-mail-2.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.190) id 431ca5aa.9ec7.44a for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Mon, 5 Sep 2005 21:08:10 +0100 (envelope-sender ) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j85K6o705233 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Mon, 5 Sep 2005 21:06:50 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:22473 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" Subject: Re: Looping without injection-date? (Re: Meta-level thought: Expectations of interworking?) Message-ID: X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <8867DEDC03E7BDC41E455637@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <87fyszx1lj.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <87u0hducur.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <87acj4k5j8.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2005 17:09:09 GMT Lines: 32 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: In <87acj4k5j8.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> Russ Allbery writes: >Charles Lindsey writes: >> There is no figure given for staleness in other circumstances, except >> that it MUST be no later than the amount of history you keep (e.g. 7 >> days for your transit server). We probably ought to put a figure for >> this in USEAGE, and it looks like 7 or 10 days would be about right. >Yup. OK, I have written the following paragraph into my current USEAGE text. I will happily accept comments on it now, but otherwise it can be looked at again when we get around to serious USEAGE discussion. For the purpose of preventing slowly propagating articles from being accepted a second time by agents from which they had already expired, [USEPRO] requires that a relaying agent reject as "stale" articles which predate "the earliest articles of which it normally keeps record". To this end, relaying agents SHOULD keep record of all articles received for at least 7 days. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 From owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Mon Sep 05 16:14:47 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ECNMd-0005cv-QV for usefor-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 05 Sep 2005 16:14:47 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA02578 for ; Mon, 5 Sep 2005 16:14:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j85K8FCM050576; Mon, 5 Sep 2005 13:08:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j85K8FNK050570; Mon, 5 Sep 2005 13:08:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-2.gradwell.net (lon-mail-2.gradwell.net [193.111.201.126]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j85K8D48050544 for ; Mon, 5 Sep 2005 13:08:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-70-5.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.70.5]) by lon-mail-2.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.190) id 431ca5ac.9ec7.44c for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Mon, 5 Sep 2005 21:08:12 +0100 (envelope-sender ) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j85K6rc05247 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Mon, 5 Sep 2005 21:06:53 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:22476 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" Subject: Re: #1047 Path field delimiters and syntax - status Message-ID: X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <9cVjEdBHw-B@khms.westfalen.de> <9cVjEdBHw-B@khms.westfalen.de> <9d4SRQx1w-B@khms.westfalen.de> Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2005 18:51:53 GMT Lines: 42 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: In <9d4SRQx1w-B@khms.westfalen.de> kaih@khms.westfalen.de (Kai Henningsen) writes: >henry@spsystems.net (Henry Spencer) wrote on 24.08.05 in : >> C News went the opposite route: where all INN's incoming paths ultimately >> go via NNTP, all of C News's ultimately went via a disk spool area (very >> much in the style of UUCP). The injection path did rigorous checking and >> fixups (e.g. adding Date) on user-posted articles before dropping them in >> the spool area. The UUCP and NNTP incoming paths dropped data in the >> spool area without examining it. The server/relayer code picked up from >> the spool area, and for speed, did only the most basic sanity checks -- >> superficial parse of all the headers, check for presence of mandatory >> headers, detailed parse only for headers it actually cared about. >But those "most basic sanity checks" are - from what you say - exactly the >same as NNTP does. AIUI, most news servers (including INN and CNews) provide two interfaces: 'inews' - please inject this article (does some rather thorough format checks); 'rnews' - please relay this article (does the minimum amount of checks that it can get away with). "minimum amount" probably includes the basic NNTP requirements (essentially that the header fields can be separated out) and also enough to disentangle the headers it needs to look at (which is most of the mandatory ones). OTOH, if the 'rnews' is also going to store the article locally (it is then a serving agent as well as a relaying agent), then it probably needs to do somewhat more (indeed USEPRO says it MUST). -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 From owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Mon Sep 05 16:14:47 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ECNMd-0005cu-PJ for usefor-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 05 Sep 2005 16:14:47 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA02577 for ; Mon, 5 Sep 2005 16:14:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j85K8Fvh050575; Mon, 5 Sep 2005 13:08:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j85K8FVb050571; Mon, 5 Sep 2005 13:08:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-2.gradwell.net (lon-mail-2.gradwell.net [193.111.201.126]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j85K8BCe050542 for ; Mon, 5 Sep 2005 13:08:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-70-5.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.70.5]) by lon-mail-2.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.190) id 431ca5aa.9ec7.44a for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Mon, 5 Sep 2005 21:08:10 +0100 (envelope-sender ) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j85K6o705233 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Mon, 5 Sep 2005 21:06:50 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:22473 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" Subject: Re: Looping without injection-date? (Re: Meta-level thought: Expectations of interworking?) Message-ID: X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <8867DEDC03E7BDC41E455637@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <87fyszx1lj.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <87u0hducur.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <87acj4k5j8.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2005 17:09:09 GMT Lines: 32 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: In <87acj4k5j8.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> Russ Allbery writes: >Charles Lindsey writes: >> There is no figure given for staleness in other circumstances, except >> that it MUST be no later than the amount of history you keep (e.g. 7 >> days for your transit server). We probably ought to put a figure for >> this in USEAGE, and it looks like 7 or 10 days would be about right. >Yup. OK, I have written the following paragraph into my current USEAGE text. I will happily accept comments on it now, but otherwise it can be looked at again when we get around to serious USEAGE discussion. For the purpose of preventing slowly propagating articles from being accepted a second time by agents from which they had already expired, [USEPRO] requires that a relaying agent reject as "stale" articles which predate "the earliest articles of which it normally keeps record". To this end, relaying agents SHOULD keep record of all articles received for at least 7 days. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 From owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Mon Sep 05 16:14:47 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ECNMd-0005cv-QV for usefor-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 05 Sep 2005 16:14:47 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA02578 for ; Mon, 5 Sep 2005 16:14:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j85K8FCM050576; Mon, 5 Sep 2005 13:08:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j85K8FNK050570; Mon, 5 Sep 2005 13:08:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-2.gradwell.net (lon-mail-2.gradwell.net [193.111.201.126]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j85K8D48050544 for ; Mon, 5 Sep 2005 13:08:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-70-5.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.70.5]) by lon-mail-2.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.190) id 431ca5ac.9ec7.44c for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Mon, 5 Sep 2005 21:08:12 +0100 (envelope-sender ) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j85K6rc05247 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Mon, 5 Sep 2005 21:06:53 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:22476 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" Subject: Re: #1047 Path field delimiters and syntax - status Message-ID: X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <9cVjEdBHw-B@khms.westfalen.de> <9cVjEdBHw-B@khms.westfalen.de> <9d4SRQx1w-B@khms.westfalen.de> Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2005 18:51:53 GMT Lines: 42 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: In <9d4SRQx1w-B@khms.westfalen.de> kaih@khms.westfalen.de (Kai Henningsen) writes: >henry@spsystems.net (Henry Spencer) wrote on 24.08.05 in : >> C News went the opposite route: where all INN's incoming paths ultimately >> go via NNTP, all of C News's ultimately went via a disk spool area (very >> much in the style of UUCP). The injection path did rigorous checking and >> fixups (e.g. adding Date) on user-posted articles before dropping them in >> the spool area. The UUCP and NNTP incoming paths dropped data in the >> spool area without examining it. The server/relayer code picked up from >> the spool area, and for speed, did only the most basic sanity checks -- >> superficial parse of all the headers, check for presence of mandatory >> headers, detailed parse only for headers it actually cared about. >But those "most basic sanity checks" are - from what you say - exactly the >same as NNTP does. AIUI, most news servers (including INN and CNews) provide two interfaces: 'inews' - please inject this article (does some rather thorough format checks); 'rnews' - please relay this article (does the minimum amount of checks that it can get away with). "minimum amount" probably includes the basic NNTP requirements (essentially that the header fields can be separated out) and also enough to disentangle the headers it needs to look at (which is most of the mandatory ones). OTOH, if the 'rnews' is also going to store the article locally (it is then a serving agent as well as a relaying agent), then it probably needs to do somewhat more (indeed USEPRO says it MUST). -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 From owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Mon Sep 05 21:42:30 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ECSTm-0003Ad-2u for usefor-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 05 Sep 2005 21:42:30 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA14452 for ; Mon, 5 Sep 2005 21:42:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j861a8Uw073774; Mon, 5 Sep 2005 18:36:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j861a8Mq073773; Mon, 5 Sep 2005 18:36:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp1.Stanford.EDU (smtp1.Stanford.EDU [171.67.16.123]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j861a7JM073766 for ; Mon, 5 Sep 2005 18:36:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rra@stanford.edu) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.64.19.147]) by smtp1.Stanford.EDU (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j861a2xY024735 for ; Mon, 5 Sep 2005 18:36:04 -0700 Received: by windlord.stanford.edu (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 2E89DE7BCE; Mon, 5 Sep 2005 18:36:02 -0700 (PDT) From: Russ Allbery To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: Polll results on injection-info, and some thought on progress In-Reply-To: (Charles Lindsey's message of "Mon, 5 Sep 2005 19:01:25 GMT") Organization: The Eyrie References: <4908E0CCAE17394C8BEB2BF7@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> Date: Mon, 05 Sep 2005 18:36:02 -0700 Message-ID: <87irxfrn99.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110004 (No Gnus v0.4) XEmacs/21.4.17 (linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Charles Lindsey writes: > Harald Tveit Alvestrand writes: >> 3) IF THE SYNTAX IS KEPT, HOW SHOULD WE DESCRIBE IT? >> 3a) Keep the current definition; it's good enough. >> 3b) Specify ABNF for a "name=3Dvalue" list, don't refer to >> "parameter" >> 3c) Use the "parameter" definition, but add a non-normative >> description in modern ABNF >> 3d) Use the "parameter", give an ABNF for each parameter >> value we define, but don't add an overall ABNF >> Charles Lindsey (with comments) >> 3e) Something else >> Russ Allbery (fix the problem upstream, not here) >> No consensus. > Well at least we have eliminated 3a, 3b and 3c. I.e. there is a problem > with the present description that needs to be fixed. > But I have not seen Russ's comment (was it posted here?). May we have some > explanation of what "fixing upstream" means? If we're going to use MIME, we should use MIME. If the current MIME spec is broken, well, mail client authors are coping, and news client authors can cope too. If it's really broken, it can get fixed in a revision of the MIME specification, which we'd then pick up automatically. -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) From owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Tue Sep 06 07:28:00 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ECbcO-0005Wb-CX for usefor-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 06 Sep 2005 07:28:00 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA21237 for ; Tue, 6 Sep 2005 07:27:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j86BQP0Q024803; Tue, 6 Sep 2005 04:26:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j86BQPkF024802; Tue, 6 Sep 2005 04:26:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j86BQOs6024794 for ; Tue, 6 Sep 2005 04:26:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from harald@alvestrand.no) Received: from localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA6E6320091; Tue, 6 Sep 2005 13:26:00 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 22966-05; Tue, 6 Sep 2005 13:25:55 +0200 (CEST) Received: from halvestr-w2k02.emea.cisco.com (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4EAC32008A; Tue, 6 Sep 2005 13:25:54 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2005 12:33:23 +0200 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand To: Charles Lindsey , ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Allowing IP addresses as path-identiites (Re: #1047 Path field delimiters and syntax - status) Message-ID: <6C715BFE8359F291F057BD04@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> In-Reply-To: References: <572CD0E1D0957B0EFAD23738@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.3 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="==========4646CAD4E51D83C262FC==========" X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at alvestrand.no Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: --==========4646CAD4E51D83C262FC========== Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable technical contributor hat on: In case anyone is in any doubt whatsoever, I think we should delete option=20 2 in the list below. It adds zero value for the users of the standard, and=20 creates one more reason for identities to be unstable. chair hat on: it's "me-too" time. If you have an opinion of whether or not we should allow IP addresses as=20 path-identities, either YES or NO, please speak up. YES - IP addresses should be allowed as path-identity. NO - IP addresses should not be allowed as path-identity. NOTE: If we disallow IP addresses as path-identities, we will still allow=20 them as "diagnostic data" - nobody's proposed that we should declare=20 articles that have IP addresses in the path as non-conformant. However, if=20 we disallow them, they WILL be disallowed in Injection-info and Xref, which = are the two other places that use them. (I'm offline, so can't take out a ticket number on this specific subject.=20 Will do so when I get back online.) Harald --On 5. september 2005 18:30 +0000 Charles Lindsey =20 wrote: > My currently proposed USEPRO text is: > > s can take the following forms (in decreasing order of > preference): > > 1. A fully qualified domain name (FQDN) associated with an "A" or > "AAAA" record identifying that news-server, or with an "MX" record > through which its administrators can be contacted; alternatively > an equivalent "CNAME". > > 2. An encoding of the public [RFC 1918], permanently routable IP > address - or [RFC 3986] - of that > news-server. This option SHOULD NOT be used if an FQDN for that > server is available (however, such IP addresses are perfectly > suitable for purely diagnostic identities [reference needed to > later section]). > > 3. Some other (arbitrary) name believed to be unique and registered > at least with all other news-servers sending articles directly to > the given one. This option SHOULD NOT be used unless the earlier > options are unavailable (e.g. because the server in question is > not connected to the Internet), or unless it is of longstanding > usage and cessation would be unduly disruptive, or unless one > of the earlier options is provided as well. > --==========4646CAD4E51D83C262FC========== Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (MingW32) iD8DBQFDHXB0OMj+2+WY0F4RArIRAKCfQ4AV872qmAU1J+lPKQtAh8K0GgCbBdyp a7QKSXPCNTqtBeBy7FTyzVM= =Yvug -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --==========4646CAD4E51D83C262FC==========-- From owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Tue Sep 06 07:34:59 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ECbj9-0006Zp-EP for usefor-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 06 Sep 2005 07:34:59 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA21960 for ; Tue, 6 Sep 2005 07:34:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j86BXew3025366; Tue, 6 Sep 2005 04:33:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j86BXebt025365; Tue, 6 Sep 2005 04:33:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from anchor-post-30.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-30.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.88]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j86BXdas025356 for ; Tue, 6 Sep 2005 04:33:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from richard@highwayman.com) Received: from gti.noc.demon.net ([195.11.55.101] helo=happyday.al.cl.cam.ac.uk) by anchor-post-30.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 4.42) id 1ECbhp-00009f-2L for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Tue, 06 Sep 2005 11:33:38 +0000 Message-ID: <$g38OuHt4XHDFAKS@highwayman.com> Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2005 12:31:57 +0100 To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Richard Clayton Subject: Re: Allowing IP addresses as path-identiites (Re: #1047 Path field delimiters and syntax - status) References: <572CD0E1D0957B0EFAD23738@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <6C715BFE8359F291F057BD04@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> In-Reply-To: <6C715BFE8359F291F057BD04@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike Integrated Version 5.02 M Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 In message <6C715BFE8359F291F057BD04@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126>, Harald Tveit Alvestrand writes >If you have an opinion of whether or not we should allow IP addresses as >path-identities, either YES or NO, please speak up. > >YES - IP addresses should be allowed as path-identity. >NO - IP addresses should not be allowed as path-identity. I think they're unnecessary (and they're also currently uncommon). I would not like to see any encouragement for them, so "no" - -- richard @ highwayman . com "Nothing seems the same Still you never see the change from day to day And no-one notices the customs slip away" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPsdk version 1.7.1 iQA/AwUBQx1+LZoAxkTY1oPiEQLofgCg/dZXxMR4xFd9L0FNrmT7mCcc770AnjJa VavRb30aYypz79cf0ru7obDf =rrhc -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Tue Sep 06 11:20:19 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ECfFD-0002IH-2Z for usefor-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 06 Sep 2005 11:20:19 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA03459 for ; Tue, 6 Sep 2005 11:20:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j86FIxuw044749; Tue, 6 Sep 2005 08:18:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j86FIx5E044748; Tue, 6 Sep 2005 08:18:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail01.peak.org (a.mail.peak.org [69.59.192.41]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j86FIwTh044732 for ; Tue, 6 Sep 2005 08:18:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stanley@peak.org) Received: from a.shell.peak.org (a.shell.peak.org [69.59.192.81]) by mail01.peak.org (8.12.10/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j86FIDIo073790 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 6 Sep 2005 08:18:13 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2005 08:18:52 -0700 (PDT) From: John Stanley X-X-Sender: stanley@a.shell.peak.org To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: Allowing IP addresses as path-identiites Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Score: 0 () X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.39 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Harald Tveit Alvestrand : >YES - IP addresses should be allowed as path-identity. Since you aren't going to stop it, it's better to figure out how to allow it and have it coexist peacefully. >NOTE: If we disallow IP addresses as path-identities, we will still allow >them as "diagnostic data" - I'm sorry, but I see no "diagnostic data" component in the definition of the path header. I see "path-identity", I see "path-keyword", and I see "path-delimiter." If we disallow IP addresses as path-identities, then they are disallowed altogether, since they fit neither the limited definition of path-keyword nor path-delimiter. >I think we should delete option 2 in the list below. There is no reason to, if you encode the IPv6 addresses as has been suggested several times. The only reason not to allow IPv6 is the dead:beef problem, which is trivially avoided. I know of no reason not to allow IPv4. It is, for routable addresses, as unique as the FQDN. From owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Tue Sep 06 13:31:42 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EChIM-00064Y-Ih for usefor-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 06 Sep 2005 13:31:42 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA09071 for ; Tue, 6 Sep 2005 13:31:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j86HUZkv055266; Tue, 6 Sep 2005 10:30:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j86HUZ84055265; Tue, 6 Sep 2005 10:30:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from smtp2.Stanford.EDU (smtp2.Stanford.EDU [171.67.16.125]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j86HUYwG055258 for ; Tue, 6 Sep 2005 10:30:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rra@stanford.edu) Received: from windlord.stanford.edu (windlord.Stanford.EDU [171.64.19.147]) by smtp2.Stanford.EDU (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j86HUXOL011728 for ; Tue, 6 Sep 2005 10:30:34 -0700 Received: by windlord.stanford.edu (Postfix, from userid 1000) id A6EC5E7BCE; Tue, 6 Sep 2005 10:30:33 -0700 (PDT) From: Russ Allbery To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: Allowing IP addresses as path-identiites (Re: #1047 Path field delimiters and syntax - status) In-Reply-To: <$g38OuHt4XHDFAKS@highwayman.com> (Richard Clayton's message of "Tue, 6 Sep 2005 12:31:57 +0100") Organization: The Eyrie References: <572CD0E1D0957B0EFAD23738@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <6C715BFE8359F291F057BD04@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <$g38OuHt4XHDFAKS@highwayman.com> Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2005 10:30:33 -0700 Message-ID: <877jduqf2e.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110004 (No Gnus v0.4) XEmacs/21.4.17 (linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Richard Clayton writes: > Harald Tveit Alvestrand writes >> If you have an opinion of whether or not we should allow IP addresses as >> path-identities, either YES or NO, please speak up. >> >> YES - IP addresses should be allowed as path-identity. >> NO - IP addresses should not be allowed as path-identity. > I think they're unnecessary (and they're also currently uncommon). I > would not like to see any encouragement for them, so "no" I agree. -- Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) From owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Tue Sep 06 13:47:13 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EChXN-0000PO-Fz for usefor-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 06 Sep 2005 13:47:13 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA09779 for ; Tue, 6 Sep 2005 13:47:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j86HkCQU056098; Tue, 6 Sep 2005 10:46:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j86HkCTj056097; Tue, 6 Sep 2005 10:46:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from relay.pair.com (relay00.pair.com [209.68.1.20]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j86HkCcb056084 for ; Tue, 6 Sep 2005 10:46:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from forrest@mibsoftware.com) Received: (qmail 27937 invoked from network); 6 Sep 2005 17:46:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ?192.168.2.11?) (unknown) by unknown with SMTP; 6 Sep 2005 17:46:11 -0000 X-pair-Authenticated: 216.37.221.183 Message-ID: <431DD5E2.5040802@mibsoftware.com> Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2005 13:46:10 -0400 From: "Forrest J. Cavalier III" User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.7 (Windows/20040616) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: Allowing IP addresses as path-identiites (Re: #1047 Path field delimiters and syntax - status) References: <572CD0E1D0957B0EFAD23738@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <6C715BFE8359F291F057BD04@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <$g38OuHt4XHDFAKS@highwayman.com> <877jduqf2e.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> In-Reply-To: <877jduqf2e.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit YES - IP addresses should be allowed as path-identity. NO - IP addresses should not be allowed as path-identity. I think these poll choices are poorly specified. I say MUST ACCEPT, MUST NOT generate. Is that YES or NO? And if it matters here, I think all diagnostics should start with ".keyword.", such as "!.mismatch.10.0.0.1". From owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Tue Sep 06 14:41:38 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ECiO2-0001ep-9S for usefor-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 06 Sep 2005 14:41:38 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA12611 for ; Tue, 6 Sep 2005 14:41:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j86IeMYY060618; Tue, 6 Sep 2005 11:40:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j86IeMws060617; Tue, 6 Sep 2005 11:40:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail2.panix.com (mail2.panix.com [166.84.1.73]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j86IeLn0060608 for ; Tue, 6 Sep 2005 11:40:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sethb@panix.com) Received: from panix5.panix.com (panix5.panix.com [166.84.1.5]) by mail2.panix.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA3979DDAD for ; Tue, 6 Sep 2005 14:40:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from sethb@localhost) by panix5.panix.com (8.11.6p3/8.8.8/PanixN1.1) id j86IeLk02548; Tue, 6 Sep 2005 14:40:21 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2005 14:40:21 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200509061840.j86IeLk02548@panix5.panix.com> From: Seth Breidbart To: ietf-usefor@imc.org In-reply-to: <$g38OuHt4XHDFAKS@highwayman.com> (message from Richard Clayton on Tue, 6 Sep 2005 12:31:57 +0100) Subject: Re: Allowing IP addresses as path-identiites (Re: #1047 Path field delimiters and syntax - status) References: <572CD0E1D0957B0EFAD23738@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <6C715BFE8359F291F057BD04@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <$g38OuHt4XHDFAKS@highwayman.com> Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: If IP addresses aren't allowed in paths, how is a site to denote "I got this from someone claiming to be but the IP address doesn't match, it's actually "? Seth From owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Tue Sep 06 15:29:15 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ECj86-0004ET-Sn for usefor-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 06 Sep 2005 15:29:15 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA16776 for ; Tue, 6 Sep 2005 15:29:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j86JRjf2064641; Tue, 6 Sep 2005 12:27:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j86JRj51064640; Tue, 6 Sep 2005 12:27:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j86JRiLt064634 for ; Tue, 6 Sep 2005 12:27:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from harald@alvestrand.no) Received: from localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA661320088; Tue, 6 Sep 2005 21:27:20 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 01394-01; Tue, 6 Sep 2005 21:27:16 +0200 (CEST) Received: from halvestr-w2k02.emea.cisco.com (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A52C320091; Tue, 6 Sep 2005 21:27:16 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2005 21:27:37 +0200 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand To: Seth Breidbart , ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: Allowing IP addresses as path-identiites (Re: #1047 Path field delimiters and syntax - status) Message-ID: X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.3 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="==========CE39FC5E1548F2B309A9==========" X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at alvestrand.no Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: --==========CE39FC5E1548F2B309A9========== Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable --On 6. september 2005 14:40 -0400 Seth Breidbart wrote: > > If IP addresses aren't allowed in paths, how is a site to denote "I > got this from someone claiming to be but the IP address > doesn't match, it's actually "? That's what I call "diagnostic data" - the site is not inserting its own=20 path-identity, so there's no reason to call it a path-identity. See my proposal to a solution to #1047, dated June 29. Harald --==========CE39FC5E1548F2B309A9========== Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (MingW32) iD8DBQFDHe2pOMj+2+WY0F4RAveYAKCvQ/FDy65czka7b4gUAMt2g/KlNACfTu9x Q3YDFiyYDC57yjJFIZmBvaU= =te/K -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --==========CE39FC5E1548F2B309A9==========-- From owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Tue Sep 06 15:33:08 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ECjBq-0004vj-4V for usefor-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 06 Sep 2005 15:33:07 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA16899 for ; Tue, 6 Sep 2005 15:33:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j86JVli4065031; Tue, 6 Sep 2005 12:31:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j86JVl87065030; Tue, 6 Sep 2005 12:31:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j86JVkkH065024 for ; Tue, 6 Sep 2005 12:31:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from harald@alvestrand.no) Received: from localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06652320091; Tue, 6 Sep 2005 21:31:24 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 01394-04; Tue, 6 Sep 2005 21:31:14 +0200 (CEST) Received: from halvestr-w2k02.emea.cisco.com (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59B6C320088; Tue, 6 Sep 2005 21:31:14 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2005 21:31:35 +0200 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand To: "Forrest J. Cavalier III" , ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: Allowing IP addresses as path-identiites (Re: #1047 Path field delimiters and syntax - status) Message-ID: <4C8F9B0B48686F7B528A298D@[10.61.80.31]> In-Reply-To: <431DD5E2.5040802@mibsoftware.com> References: <572CD0E1D0957B0EFAD23738@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <6C715BFE8359F291F057BD04@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <$g38OuHt4XHDFAKS@highwayman.com> <877jduqf2e.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <431DD5E2.5040802@mibsoftware.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.3 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="==========5638A6C77A1B9777410D==========" X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at alvestrand.no Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: --==========5638A6C77A1B9777410D========== Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable --On 6. september 2005 13:46 -0400 "Forrest J. Cavalier III"=20 wrote: > > YES - IP addresses should be allowed as path-identity. > NO - IP addresses should not be allowed as path-identity. > > I think these poll choices are poorly specified. > > I say MUST ACCEPT, MUST NOT generate. Is that YES or NO? Shucks, I forgot "none of the above" as a choice..... Are you talking about components of the path, or about identities that can=20 appear in Xref: and Injection-info:? I haven't yet seen anyone claim to have seen an IP address in Xref: in the=20 wild, and Injection-info: isn't implemented (AFAIK) by anyone yet, so I=20 don't see any reason to do a MUST ACCEPT. But YMMV. Harald > > And if it matters here, I think all diagnostics should start > with ".keyword.", such as "!.mismatch.10.0.0.1". --==========5638A6C77A1B9777410D========== Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (MingW32) iD8DBQFDHe6XOMj+2+WY0F4RAjGgAKCLvGEoR72dUF1KANlw+NtJF7C1qACfYl/O phSHY8MdOvYRa3QHtNfPc+Q= =IeiR -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --==========5638A6C77A1B9777410D==========-- From owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Tue Sep 06 18:02:12 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EClW8-0008R7-6R for usefor-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 06 Sep 2005 18:02:12 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA03157 for ; Tue, 6 Sep 2005 18:02:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j86M1C0U078090; Tue, 6 Sep 2005 15:01:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j86M1CMF078089; Tue, 6 Sep 2005 15:01:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j86M19Zw078074 for ; Tue, 6 Sep 2005 15:01:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1EClTQ-0004Xe-Fn for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Tue, 06 Sep 2005 23:59:24 +0200 Received: from c-180-160-19.hh.dial.de.ignite.net ([62.180.160.19]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 06 Sep 2005 23:59:24 +0200 Received: from nobody by c-180-160-19.hh.dial.de.ignite.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 06 Sep 2005 23:59:24 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Frank Ellermann Subject: Re: Allowing IP addresses as path-identiites Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2005 23:55:26 +0200 Lines: 2 Message-ID: <431E104E.1DBA@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <572CD0E1D0957B0EFAD23738@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <6C715BFE8359F291F057BD04@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-180-160-19.hh.dial.de.ignite.net Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: NO - IP addresses should not be allowed as path-identity. From owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Tue Sep 06 21:02:27 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ECoKY-0002SS-Vf for usefor-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 06 Sep 2005 21:02:27 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA18546 for ; Tue, 6 Sep 2005 21:02:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j8710rFQ092989; Tue, 6 Sep 2005 18:00:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j8710riY092988; Tue, 6 Sep 2005 18:00:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from TheWorld.com (pcls1.std.com [192.74.137.141]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j8710pB1092982 for ; Tue, 6 Sep 2005 18:00:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from schlitt@world.std.com) Received: from shell.TheWorld.com (root@shell01.theworld.com [192.74.137.71]) by TheWorld.com (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j870srFx022626; Tue, 6 Sep 2005 20:54:53 -0400 Received: from localhost (schlitt@localhost) by shell.TheWorld.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA5479413; Tue, 6 Sep 2005 20:54:53 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shell01.TheWorld.com: schlitt owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2005 20:54:53 -0400 From: Dan Schlitt X-X-Sender: schlitt@shell01.TheWorld.com To: Harald Tveit Alvestrand cc: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: Allowing IP addresses as path-identiites (Re: #1047 Path field delimiters and syntax - status) In-Reply-To: <6C715BFE8359F291F057BD04@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> Message-ID: References: <572CD0E1D0957B0EFAD23738@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <6C715BFE8359F291F057BD04@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.86rc1/1066/Tue Sep 6 07:42:41 2005 on pcls1.std.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: NO - IP addresses should not be allowed as path-identity. /dan -- Dan Schlitt schlitt@world.std.com From owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Tue Sep 06 22:33:14 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ECpkQ-0004vS-D7 for usefor-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 06 Sep 2005 22:33:14 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id WAA22163 for ; Tue, 6 Sep 2005 22:33:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j872VqT7000284; Tue, 6 Sep 2005 19:31:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j872VqK9000283; Tue, 6 Sep 2005 19:31:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-3.gradwell.net (lon-mail-3.gradwell.net [193.111.201.127]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j872VoQe000276 for ; Tue, 6 Sep 2005 19:31:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-66-36.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.66.36]) by lon-mail-3.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.191) id 431e4dcc.1187.d for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 7 Sep 2005 03:17:48 +0100 (envelope-sender ) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j872C9802729 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 7 Sep 2005 03:12:09 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:22483 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" Subject: Re: Polll results on injection-info, and some thought on progress Message-ID: X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <4908E0CCAE17394C8BEB2BF7@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <87irxfrn99.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2005 16:57:54 GMT Lines: 89 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: In <87irxfrn99.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> Russ Allbery writes: >Charles Lindsey writes: >> Harald Tveit Alvestrand writes: >> Well at least we have eliminated 3a, 3b and 3c. I.e. there is a problem >> with the present description that needs to be fixed. >> But I have not seen Russ's comment (was it posted here?). May we have some >> explanation of what "fixing upstream" means? >If we're going to use MIME, we should use MIME. If the current MIME spec >is broken, well, mail client authors are coping, and news client authors >can cope too. If it's really broken, it can get fixed in a revision of >the MIME specification, which we'd then pick up automatically. There is nothing particularly broken about current MIME. It is just a little tricky to interface to it correctly. It has four properties that are of relevance to the present problem. 1. The syntax of and its components is written in RFC 822 style, so if you want to know whereabouts CFWS is allowed within it, you need to understand the RFC 822 comment and folding rules. Since the rest of our draft follows the RFC 2822 comment and folding style, there is need for a NOTE (non-normative) to draw attention to this and to indicate informally what the rule would look like in 2822 style. 2. MIME makes provision for the syntax of the relevant header fields to include .... *( ";" parameter ) .... with the understanding that any s used therein should have been defined by some standard or registered with IANA or whatever. There is also a clear understanding that if any not so standardized/registered/whatever is seen, it is to be accepted and ignored (thus if a future extension adds a new to some header field, then existing software is not broken - though it will not see the benefit of the new feature). We want to retain that useful MIME feature. 3. There are rules for when the on the RHS of a MUST take the form of a rather than a ; however, if you cannot (be bothered to) remember which characters are/aren't s, then it never hurts to enclose them in "..." regardless. We also want to retain that feature. 4. It is NOT customary to give an ABNF syntax for each particular you choose to define (look through RFC 2046 which defines lots of s for lots of media types without using any ABNF at all). The benefit of that appreoach is that you are excused from worrying about s and CFWS and whatever else. That is not to say that ABNF has no place in defining s. For example we could well say that one of the defined s of the Injection-Infor field is called "posting-host", and its must consist of some , allowing you then to write Injection-Info: news.stanford.edu; posting-host = zebra.standford.edu or, alternatively, Injection-Info: news.stanford.edu; posting-host = (this is a long folded comment) "zebra.standford.edu" That is the approach I propose to take (see http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/msg01964.html). Are you happy with that approach, subject to tuning (there were a few suggestions in the subsequent discussion that I need to incorporate)? Here is how it tackles the issues raised above: #1. Covered in a NOTE. #2. Contains a syntax as indicated. #3. Covered in a NOTE. #4. I give a table of the s we propose to define, showing what you are allowed to put in each (with the aid of some ABNF as in my example above, which was somewhat oversimplified). There is also a further NOTE about the gibbousness of RFC 2231 which can be retained, or omitted, or hacked about as people might like. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 From owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Wed Sep 07 00:17:32 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ECrNM-0002n6-AC for usefor-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 07 Sep 2005 00:17:32 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA27028 for ; Wed, 7 Sep 2005 00:17:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j874GE5n009297; Tue, 6 Sep 2005 21:16:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j874GEcB009296; Tue, 6 Sep 2005 21:16:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from relay03.pair.com (relay03.pair.com [209.68.5.17]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j874GDmS009289 for ; Tue, 6 Sep 2005 21:16:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from forrest@mibsoftware.com) Received: (qmail 79360 invoked from network); 7 Sep 2005 04:16:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ?192.168.2.11?) (unknown) by unknown with SMTP; 7 Sep 2005 04:16:12 -0000 X-pair-Authenticated: 216.37.229.161 Message-ID: <431E698C.6090602@mibsoftware.com> Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2005 00:16:12 -0400 From: "Forrest J. Cavalier III" User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.7 (Windows/20040616) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: Allowing IP addresses as path-identiites (Re: #1047 Path field delimiters and syntax - status) References: <572CD0E1D0957B0EFAD23738@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <6C715BFE8359F291F057BD04@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <$g38OuHt4XHDFAKS@highwayman.com> <877jduqf2e.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <431DD5E2.5040802@mibsoftware.com> <4C8F9B0B48686F7B528A298D@[10.61.80.31]> In-Reply-To: <4C8F9B0B48686F7B528A298D@[10.61.80.31]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: > > --On 6. september 2005 13:46 -0400 "Forrest J. Cavalier III" > wrote: > > >>YES - IP addresses should be allowed as path-identity. >>NO - IP addresses should not be allowed as path-identity. >> >>I think these poll choices are poorly specified. >> >>I say MUST ACCEPT, MUST NOT generate. Is that YES or NO? > > > Shucks, I forgot "none of the above" as a choice..... > Are you talking about components of the path, or about identities that can > appear in Xref: and Injection-info:? Since you replied by asking a question....does that mean you agree your poll choices are ambigous? This has nothing to do with understanding English. I observe that your understanding and use of English is excellent, but what's the reason to avoid RFC2119 terms? If we can't even ask simple questions precisely, then let's just give up on writing a useful document. "not allowed" can mean MUST NOT generate, MUST NOT relay, MUST NOT use to determine propagation. Or does it mean that the USEFOR grammar ends up having no way to specify IP addresses in path-identity (which means there may not be any RFC2119 MUST terminology.) "path-identity" is used in the grammar defining the syntax of three different header fields. (-- A mistake if you ask me....Quick tell me what will every clients do with an IPv6 address with colons in the path-identity Xref header field?) When someone votes "NO - IP Addresses should not be allowed as path-identity" are they voting that Relaying servers are supposed to reject articles which have an IP in the Path: header field? Are they voting that servers are permitted to reject articles which have an IP in the Path: header field? Or that the Injection-info-experiment-trying-to-be-a-standard-field cannot use an IP address for the first terminal after the first CFWS. I hope people know what they are voting for. I don't. From owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Wed Sep 07 03:12:56 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ECu75-0007UR-UG for usefor-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 07 Sep 2005 03:12:56 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA01814 for ; Wed, 7 Sep 2005 03:12:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j877Bmk1027041; Wed, 7 Sep 2005 00:11:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j877BmmT027040; Wed, 7 Sep 2005 00:11:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j877Bk0k027033 for ; Wed, 7 Sep 2005 00:11:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1ECu4Y-0001sD-T1 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 07 Sep 2005 09:10:18 +0200 Received: from c-180-160-90.hh.dial.de.ignite.net ([62.180.160.90]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 07 Sep 2005 09:10:18 +0200 Received: from nobody by c-180-160-90.hh.dial.de.ignite.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 07 Sep 2005 09:10:18 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Frank Ellermann Subject: Re: Allowing IP addresses as path-identiites Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2005 09:02:24 +0200 Organization: Lines: 32 Message-ID: <431E9080.1708@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <572CD0E1D0957B0EFAD23738@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <6C715BFE8359F291F057BD04@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <$g38OuHt4XHDFAKS@highwayman.com> <877jduqf2e.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <431DD5E2.5040802@mibsoftware.com> <4C8F9B0B48686F7B528A298D@[10.61.80.31]> <431E698C.6090602@mibsoftware.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-180-160-90.hh.dial.de.ignite.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Forrest J. Cavalier III wrote: > When someone votes "NO - IP Addresses should not be allowed > as path-identity" are they voting that Relaying servers are > supposed to reject articles which have an IP in the Path: > header field? We're not "voting". It's only a poll, you can start your own if you don't like Harald's. When I posted "NO" what I meant was this: NO - I don't want IPs as "path identity", neither in the Path: nor in Xref:, let alone nntp-URLs or Injection-Info. It should be easy to use a proper FQDN as name for _servers_ - and where that's not the case we still offer the "traditional name" with the necessary caveat that this won't work for conflicts. > I hope people know what they are voting for. s/voting// Me too, if you think it's nonsense please tell me. IMHO we've already discussed all pros and cons, it's possible to get it right for IPs incl. IPv6, but it would be too messy. > I don't. Please post them if you have new arguments. Just state what you think - if it convinces Harald-with-hat-on he's free to ignore all who posted "NO". It's not really a "vote", it's testing the water before declaring (rough) consensus. Bye, Frank From owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Wed Sep 07 06:05:12 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ECwno-0007KG-8e for usefor-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 07 Sep 2005 06:05:12 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA08061 for ; Wed, 7 Sep 2005 06:05:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j87A3hXI046120; Wed, 7 Sep 2005 03:03:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j87A3h4D046119; Wed, 7 Sep 2005 03:03:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j87A3dvO046107 for ; Wed, 7 Sep 2005 03:03:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from harald@alvestrand.no) Received: from localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BA2A320097; Wed, 7 Sep 2005 12:03:16 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 27917-02; Wed, 7 Sep 2005 12:03:08 +0200 (CEST) Received: from halvestr-w2k02.emea.cisco.com (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58DFD320092; Wed, 7 Sep 2005 12:03:08 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2005 09:19:38 +0200 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand To: "Forrest J. Cavalier III" , ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: Allowing IP addresses as path-identiites (Re: #1047 Path field delimiters and syntax - status) Message-ID: <7FF665B379D5BF11D13E6A42@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.3 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="==========A1CE52E5599DAC0F3E2D==========" X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at alvestrand.no Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: --==========A1CE52E5599DAC0F3E2D========== Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable --On 7. september 2005 00:16 -0400 "Forrest J. Cavalier III"=20 wrote: >> Shucks, I forgot "none of the above" as a choice..... >> Are you talking about components of the path, or about identities that >> can appear in Xref: and Injection-info:? > > Since you replied by asking a question....does that mean you agree your > poll choices are ambigous? No. I think your question meant that you did not understand my poll=20 questions, which I think were completely obvioius given the complete=20 message and even the vaguest memory of the thread that led to me asking=20 this question. My question was intended to get you to explain what you did not understand. But since you seem more interested in nitpicking on the poll formulations=20 than in figuring out what the standard should say, I will note that you did = not answer the question. Harald --==========A1CE52E5599DAC0F3E2D========== Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (MingW32) iD8DBQFDHpSKOMj+2+WY0F4RAoMtAJ9Q3ZqiBiQh2fptq39WNaZtSC2zDwCfSIiG 1PQrgsoKvrnDGnKde5ttc3o= =3tPA -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --==========A1CE52E5599DAC0F3E2D==========-- From owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Wed Sep 07 07:16:03 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ECxuN-0004b0-AG for usefor-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 07 Sep 2005 07:16:03 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA11869 for ; Wed, 7 Sep 2005 07:16:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j87BEtAo053165; Wed, 7 Sep 2005 04:14:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j87BEtju053164; Wed, 7 Sep 2005 04:14:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-1.gradwell.net (lon-mail-1.gradwell.net [193.111.201.125]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j87BEsjh053153 for ; Wed, 7 Sep 2005 04:14:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-67-146.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.67.146]) by lon-mail-1.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.190) id 431ecbac.e595.127 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 7 Sep 2005 12:14:52 +0100 (envelope-sender ) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j87BCEc05725 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 7 Sep 2005 12:12:14 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:22493 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" Subject: Re: Allowing IP addresses as path-identiites (Re: #1047 Path field delimiters and syntax - status) Message-ID: X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <572CD0E1D0957B0EFAD23738@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <6C715BFE8359F291F057BD04@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <$g38OuHt4XHDFAKS@highwayman.com> <877jduqf2e.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <431DD5E2.5040802@mibsoftware.com> <4C8F9B0B48686F7B528A298D@[10.61.80.31]> Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 10:40:18 GMT Lines: 20 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: In <4C8F9B0B48686F7B528A298D@[10.61.80.31]> Harald Tveit Alvestrand writes: >Shucks, I forgot "none of the above" as a choice..... >Are you talking about components of the path, or about identities that can=20 >appear in Xref: and Injection-info:? I think we are talking about Path primarily, but it would be natural for Injection-Info to follow what we decide. And Xref too for consistency, though technically it hardly matters. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 From owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Wed Sep 07 07:16:05 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ECxuP-0004c6-Gy for usefor-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 07 Sep 2005 07:16:05 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA11873 for ; Wed, 7 Sep 2005 07:16:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j87BF1VL053213; Wed, 7 Sep 2005 04:15:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j87BF1oL053212; Wed, 7 Sep 2005 04:15:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-1.gradwell.net (lon-mail-1.gradwell.net [193.111.201.125]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j87BF0Ia053184 for ; Wed, 7 Sep 2005 04:15:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-67-146.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.67.146]) by lon-mail-1.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.190) id 431ecbb3.e595.12b for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 7 Sep 2005 12:14:59 +0100 (envelope-sender ) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j87BCEi05721 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 7 Sep 2005 12:12:14 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:22492 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" Subject: Re: Allowing IP addresses as path-identiites (Re: #1047 Path field delimiters and syntax - status) Message-ID: X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <572CD0E1D0957B0EFAD23738@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <6C715BFE8359F291F057BD04@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <$g38OuHt4XHDFAKS@highwayman.com> <877jduqf2e.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <431DD5E2.5040802@mibsoftware.com> Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 10:36:50 GMT Lines: 32 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: In <431DD5E2.5040802@mibsoftware.com> "Forrest J. Cavalier III" writes: >YES - IP addresses should be allowed as path-identity. >NO - IP addresses should not be allowed as path-identity. >I think these poll choices are poorly specified. >I say MUST ACCEPT, MUST NOT generate. Is that YES or NO? If you said MUST accept, SHOULD NOT generqte, then that would certainly be "YES". I grant you it would need some pretty weird circumstance to justify breaking that SHOULD NOT, but the Real World is a weird place :-). >And if it matters here, I think all diagnostics should start >with ".keyword.", such as "!.mismatch.10.0.0.1". Yes, I made a proposal along those lines, except I put the keyword at the end (because there is some existing practice for that). We can decide after whether to follow that route (certainly the stuff in USEPRO covering diagnostics needs a revision, and that might affect the precise syntax too). -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 From owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Wed Sep 07 07:16:03 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ECxuN-0004b3-AI for usefor-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 07 Sep 2005 07:16:03 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA11868 for ; Wed, 7 Sep 2005 07:16:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j87BEw3M053180; Wed, 7 Sep 2005 04:14:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j87BEwop053179; Wed, 7 Sep 2005 04:14:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-1.gradwell.net (lon-mail-1.gradwell.net [193.111.201.125]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j87BEv96053172 for ; Wed, 7 Sep 2005 04:14:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-67-146.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.67.146]) by lon-mail-1.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.190) id 431ecbad.e595.128 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 7 Sep 2005 12:14:53 +0100 (envelope-sender ) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j87BCDS05711 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 7 Sep 2005 12:12:13 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:22491 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" Subject: Re: Allowing IP addresses as path-identiites (Re: #1047 Path field delimiters and syntax - status) Message-ID: X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <572CD0E1D0957B0EFAD23738@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <6C715BFE8359F291F057BD04@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 10:24:52 GMT Lines: 30 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: In <6C715BFE8359F291F057BD04@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> Harald Tveit Alvestrand writes: >chair hat on: >it's "me-too" time. >If you have an opinion of whether or not we should allow IP addresses as=20 >path-identities, either YES or NO, please speak up. >YES - IP addresses should be allowed as path-identity. >NO - IP addresses should not be allowed as path-identity. YES I don't want to encourage them, and I don't expect them to appear often, if at all, and I support SHOULD NOT use them without good cause. But you don't actually gain anything by forbidding them. The dead:beef problem still remains (because IP addresses are still allowed as diagnostics) and the syntax becomes a little more complicated. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 From owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Wed Sep 07 09:10:29 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ECzh6-0004ja-UJ for usefor-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 07 Sep 2005 09:10:29 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA18310 for ; Wed, 7 Sep 2005 09:10:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j87D8wXv063634; Wed, 7 Sep 2005 06:08:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j87D8waF063633; Wed, 7 Sep 2005 06:08:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from relay01.pair.com (relay01.pair.com [209.68.5.15]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j87D8vkp063627 for ; Wed, 7 Sep 2005 06:08:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from forrest@mibsoftware.com) Received: (qmail 96536 invoked from network); 7 Sep 2005 13:08:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ?192.168.2.11?) (unknown) by unknown with SMTP; 7 Sep 2005 13:08:56 -0000 X-pair-Authenticated: 216.222.234.88 Message-ID: <431EE668.3000402@mibsoftware.com> Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2005 09:08:56 -0400 From: "Forrest J. Cavalier III" User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.7 (Windows/20040616) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: Allowing IP addresses as path-identiites (Re: #1047 Path field delimiters and syntax - status) References: <572CD0E1D0957B0EFAD23738@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <6C715BFE8359F291F057BD04@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <$g38OuHt4XHDFAKS@highwayman.com> <877jduqf2e.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <431DD5E2.5040802@mibsoftware.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Charles Lindsey wrote: > In <431DD5E2.5040802@mibsoftware.com> "Forrest J. Cavalier III" writes: > >>And if it matters here, I think all diagnostics should start >>with ".keyword.", such as "!.mismatch.10.0.0.1". > > > Yes, I made a proposal along those lines, except I put the keyword at the > end (because there is some existing practice for that). We can decide > after whether to follow that route (certainly the stuff in USEPRO covering > diagnostics needs a revision, and that might affect the precise syntax > too). Putting the keyword at the end makes it look like a TLD. Starting with . makes it easy to determine it is not a bare FQDN. From owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Wed Sep 07 09:16:47 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ECzn6-0006Jg-Ed for usefor-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 07 Sep 2005 09:16:47 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA18753 for ; Wed, 7 Sep 2005 09:16:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j87DFjXw064501; Wed, 7 Sep 2005 06:15:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j87DFjqU064500; Wed, 7 Sep 2005 06:15:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from relay01.pair.com (relay01.pair.com [209.68.5.15]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with SMTP id j87DFjjI064489 for ; Wed, 7 Sep 2005 06:15:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from forrest@mibsoftware.com) Received: (qmail 98241 invoked from network); 7 Sep 2005 13:15:44 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ?192.168.2.11?) (unknown) by unknown with SMTP; 7 Sep 2005 13:15:44 -0000 X-pair-Authenticated: 216.222.234.88 Message-ID: <431EE800.5000007@mibsoftware.com> Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2005 09:15:44 -0400 From: "Forrest J. Cavalier III" User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 0.7 (Windows/20040616) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: Allowing IP addresses as path-identiites References: <572CD0E1D0957B0EFAD23738@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <6C715BFE8359F291F057BD04@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <$g38OuHt4XHDFAKS@highwayman.com> <877jduqf2e.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <431DD5E2.5040802@mibsoftware.com> <4C8F9B0B48686F7B528A298D@[10.61.80.31]> <431E698C.6090602@mibsoftware.com> <431E9080.1708@xyzzy.claranet.de> In-Reply-To: <431E9080.1708@xyzzy.claranet.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Frank Ellermann wrote: > Forrest J. Cavalier III wrote: > > >>When someone votes "NO - IP Addresses should not be allowed >>as path-identity" are they voting that Relaying servers are >>supposed to reject articles which have an IP in the Path: >>header field? > > > We're not "voting". It's only a poll, you can start your own > if you don't like Harald's. When I posted "NO" what I meant > was this: > > NO - I don't want IPs as "path identity", neither in the Path: > nor in Xref:, let alone nntp-URLs or Injection-Info. It should > be easy to use a proper FQDN as name for _servers_ - and where > that's not the case we still offer the "traditional name" with > the necessary caveat that this won't work for conflicts. The poll wasn't for "server-name", it was for "path-identity." Does that mean that someone saying NO for path-identity is also saying that they reject uses of IP for diagnostics in path-list, since the grammar says a path-list contains path-identities, not server-names? You may argue that an implementor knows whether they are inserting a server name or a diagnostic, and that there is no issue. But the grammar only allows path-identity, folded white space, keywords, and delimiters. (Well, it allows a tail entry which is a path-identity.) So where do IP addresses for diagnostics fit in? If people think they want IP addresses for diagnostics, but not servers, it is another example of syntax that is easy to construct, but impossible to determine if something is a server identity or a diagnostic when parsing. (I object to all syntax that is "write only", including a References: header field which cannot be used to determine followups.) If people don't want to allow IP addresses for path-identities, then they should poll on whether it is a MUST NOT, SHOULD NOT, MUST REJECT, MUST NOT RELAY. Charles was correct in pointing out that I should reconsider and indicate MUST ACCEPT, SHOULD NOT generate when used in path-list. Or, if the path-list syntax is changed to distinguish diagnostics (such as a prefix keyword starting with ".") then MUST ACCEPT, MUST NOT generate, MAY use the keyword prefix + IP address. But MUST NOT for server-name, and SHOULD NOT when path-identity for Injection-info. Harald can count that as a "YES", "NO", or a "NO RESPONSE" however he likes. He can interpret precise language into his imprecise choices. From owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Wed Sep 07 12:47:59 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ED35b-0006LJ-A8 for usefor-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 07 Sep 2005 12:47:59 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA01433 for ; Wed, 7 Sep 2005 12:47:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j87GgpdZ082879; Wed, 7 Sep 2005 09:42:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j87GgpXZ082878; Wed, 7 Sep 2005 09:42:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail01.peak.org (a.mail.peak.org [69.59.192.41]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j87GgoGx082872 for ; Wed, 7 Sep 2005 09:42:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stanley@peak.org) Received: from a.shell.peak.org (a.shell.peak.org [69.59.192.81]) by mail01.peak.org (8.12.10/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j87Gg5Io013946 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 7 Sep 2005 09:42:05 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 09:42:45 -0700 (PDT) From: John Stanley X-X-Sender: stanley@a.shell.peak.org To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: Allowing IP addresses as path-identiites Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Score: 0 () X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.39 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: "Forrest J. Cavalier III" : > So where do IP addresses for diagnostics fit in? Not in the path header field, since that is composed of path-identities. Either it is a path-identity, a path-delimiter, or a keyword. >but impossible to determine if something is a server identity or a >diagnostic when parsing. Since we have no definition of "diagnostic", yep, anything that appears in the path header that isn't a delimiter or keyword is a path-identity. "Charles Lindsey" : >But you don't actually gain anything by forbidding them. The dead:beef >problem still remains (because IP addresses are still allowed as >diagnostics) and the syntax becomes a little more complicated. 1. the "dead:beef" problem is trivially solved and said solution has been on the table for probably more than a month now. The only reason I've seen to disallow IPv6 is that problem; it's been solved, so can we move on yet? 2. If you disallow IP addresses as path-identities, they are disallowed in the Path header field, since IP addresses are not delimiters and are not keywords. You cannot say "disallow as path-identity" and then claim they are still allowed. That's a contradiction. Oh, of course, you could create a "Diagnotic-Thing" header field and put them there, but the question is about path-identities, and those are what appears in path header fields. From owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Wed Sep 07 16:19:42 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1ED6OT-0005gI-Sq for usefor-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 07 Sep 2005 16:19:42 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA19025 for ; Wed, 7 Sep 2005 16:19:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j87KDgOe003206; Wed, 7 Sep 2005 13:13:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j87KDgtG003205; Wed, 7 Sep 2005 13:13:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j87KDeqM003194 for ; Wed, 7 Sep 2005 13:13:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1ED6Gg-00081U-8I for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Wed, 07 Sep 2005 22:11:38 +0200 Received: from c-134-88-165.hh.dial.de.ignite.net ([62.134.88.165]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 07 Sep 2005 22:11:38 +0200 Received: from nobody by c-134-88-165.hh.dial.de.ignite.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Wed, 07 Sep 2005 22:11:38 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Frank Ellermann Subject: Re: Allowing IP addresses as path-identiites Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2005 22:06:01 +0200 Organization: Lines: 32 Message-ID: <431F4829.1A41@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <572CD0E1D0957B0EFAD23738@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <6C715BFE8359F291F057BD04@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <$g38OuHt4XHDFAKS@highwayman.com> <877jduqf2e.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <431DD5E2.5040802@mibsoftware.com> <4C8F9B0B48686F7B528A298D@[10.61.80.31]> <431E698C.6090602@mibsoftware.com> <431E9080.1708@xyzzy.claranet.de> <431EE800.5000007@mibsoftware.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-134-88-165.hh.dial.de.ignite.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Forrest J. Cavalier III wrote: > Does that mean that someone saying NO for path-identity is > also saying that they reject uses of IP for diagnostics in > path-list No, that part would be still TBD, you added "keyword dot IP" to the list, Charles proposed "IP dot keyword", and I vaguely recall a dot-atom-text construct from Harald (but that didn't work because it contained path delimiters). > You may argue that an implementor knows whether they are > inserting a server name or a diagnostic, and that there is > no issue. But the grammar only allows path-identity, folded > white space, keywords, and delimiters. (Well, it allows a > tail entry which is a path-identity.) We'd update the Path-ABNF allowing some kind of diagnostics if the poll results in "no IPs as path-identity". With this idea all problems of IPs elsewhere (Xref or Injection-Info) are eliminated or rather reduced to "diagnostics in the Path". IMHO it's cleaner than Charles' approach (a SHOULD NOT for IPs as path-identity). > Harald can count that as a "YES", "NO", or a "NO RESPONSE" > however he likes. What you said sounds like NO for me, and what Charles said like YES. Bye, Frank From owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Thu Sep 08 02:34:36 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EDFzY-0002LL-4x for usefor-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 08 Sep 2005 02:34:36 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA01999 for ; Thu, 8 Sep 2005 02:34:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j886SrEO072994; Wed, 7 Sep 2005 23:28:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j886Srvb072993; Wed, 7 Sep 2005 23:28:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j886Sq3l072987 for ; Wed, 7 Sep 2005 23:28:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from harald@alvestrand.no) Received: from localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3368A320092; Thu, 8 Sep 2005 08:28:28 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 30043-06; Thu, 8 Sep 2005 08:28:23 +0200 (CEST) Received: from halvestr-w2k02.emea.cisco.com (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7286E320097; Thu, 8 Sep 2005 08:28:23 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 08 Sep 2005 08:28:31 +0200 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand To: "Forrest J. Cavalier III" , ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: Allowing IP addresses as path-identiites Message-ID: <085EB47BF194ADF0321D1CA6@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.3 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="==========EAD2006FF148C2DF636D==========" X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at alvestrand.no Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: --==========EAD2006FF148C2DF636D========== Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Forrest, why do you bother responding to this thread when you can't be bothered to=20 read the message that started it? --On 7. september 2005 09:15 -0400 "Forrest J. Cavalier III"=20 wrote: > Does that mean that someone saying NO for path-identity is also > saying that they reject uses of IP for diagnostics in path-list, since > the grammar says a path-list contains path-identities, not server-names? That message specifically said: > NOTE: If we disallow IP addresses as path-identities, we will still allow > them as "diagnostic data" - nobody's proposed that we should declare > articles that have IP addresses in the path as non-conformant. However, > if we disallow them, they WILL be disallowed in Injection-info and Xref, > which are the two other places that use them. --==========EAD2006FF148C2DF636D========== Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (MingW32) iD8DBQFDH9oQOMj+2+WY0F4RAq3fAKCIyiIt56NaxnUTYehQNCbSoPp1pwCffYZ9 vyuF7PinfjaQ/zcWf6YXgRk= =O+Qx -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --==========EAD2006FF148C2DF636D==========-- From owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Thu Sep 08 12:18:53 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EDP6z-0008Nf-7a for usefor-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 08 Sep 2005 12:18:53 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA01117 for ; Thu, 8 Sep 2005 12:18:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j88GHfF1036876; Thu, 8 Sep 2005 09:17:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j88GHfYA036871; Thu, 8 Sep 2005 09:17:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-1.gradwell.net (lon-mail-1.gradwell.net [193.111.201.125]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j88GHdq2036848 for ; Thu, 8 Sep 2005 09:17:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-69-100.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.69.100]) by lon-mail-1.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.190) id 43206421.17993.14e2 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Thu, 8 Sep 2005 17:17:37 +0100 (envelope-sender ) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j88GCD218326 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Thu, 8 Sep 2005 17:12:13 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:22501 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" Subject: Re: Allowing IP addresses as path-identiites (Re: #1047 Path field delimiters and syntax - status) Message-ID: X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <572CD0E1D0957B0EFAD23738@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <6C715BFE8359F291F057BD04@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <$g38OuHt4XHDFAKS@highwayman.com> <877jduqf2e.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <431DD5E2.5040802@mibsoftware.com> <431EE668.3000402@mibsoftware.com> Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 14:11:12 GMT Lines: 30 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: In <431EE668.3000402@mibsoftware.com> "Forrest J. Cavalier III" writes: >Charles Lindsey wrote: >> In <431DD5E2.5040802@mibsoftware.com> "Forrest J. Cavalier III" writes: >> >> Yes, I made a proposal along those lines, except I put the keyword at the >> end (because there is some existing practice for that). We can decide >> after whether to follow that route (certainly the stuff in USEPRO covering >> diagnostics needs a revision, and that might affect the precise syntax >> too). >Putting the keyword at the end makes it look like a TLD. Starting with . makes >it easy to determine it is not a bare FQDN. If it were not for existing practice I would agree with you. But DNews (I think, plus some others) regularly generates things like ...!news.example.com.MISMATCH!... in the Path, so I think it best to formalize that usage rather then invent a different kind of wheel. I doubt ICANN are on the verge of creating a "mismatch" TLD. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 From owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Thu Sep 08 12:18:53 2005 Received: frFrom owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Thu Sep 08 12:18:53 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EDP6z-0008Nf-7a for usefor-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 08 Sep 2005 12:18:53 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA01117 for ; Thu, 8 Sep 2005 12:18:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j88GHfF1036876; Thu, 8 Sep 2005 09:17:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j88GHfYA036871; Thu, 8 Sep 2005 09:17:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-1.gradwell.net (lon-mail-1.gradwell.net [193.111.201.125]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j88GHdq2036848 for ; Thu, 8 Sep 2005 09:17:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-69-100.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.69.100]) by lon-mail-1.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.190) id 43206421.17993.14e2 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Thu, 8 Sep 2005 17:17:37 +0100 (envelope-sender ) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j88GCD218326 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Thu, 8 Sep 2005 17:12:13 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:22501 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" Subject: Re: Allowing IP addresses as path-identiites (Re: #1047 Path field delimiters and syntax - status) Message-ID: X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <572CD0E1D0957B0EFAD23738@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <6C715BFE8359F291F057BD04@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <$g38OuHt4XHDFAKS@highwayman.com> <877jduqf2e.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <431DD5E2.5040802@mibsoftware.com> <431EE668.3000402@mibsoftware.com> Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 14:11:12 GMT Lines: 30 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: In <431EE668.3000402@mibsoftware.com> "Forrest J. Cavalier III" writes: >Charles Lindsey wrote: >> In <431DD5E2.5040802@mibsoftware.com> "Forrest J. Cavalier III" writes: >> >> Yes, I made a proposal along those lines, except I put the keyword at the >> end (because there is some existing practice for that). We can decide >> after whether to follow that route (certainly the stuff in USEPRO covering >> diagnostics needs a revision, and that might affect the precise syntax >> too). >Putting the keyword at the end makes it look like a TLD. Starting with . makes >it easy to determine it is not a bare FQDN. If it were not for existing practice I would agree with you. But DNews (I think, plus some others) regularly generates things like ...!news.example.com.MISMATCH!... in the Path, so I think it best to formalize that usage rather then invent a different kind of wheel. I doubt ICANN are on the verge of creating a "mismatch" TLD. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 From owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Thu Sep 08 12:18:53 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EDP6z-0008Ng-7b for usefor-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 08 Sep 2005 12:18:53 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA01118 for ; Thu, 8 Sep 2005 12:18:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j88GHfm9036877; Thu, 8 Sep 2005 09:17:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j88GHfFw036874; Thu, 8 Sep 2005 09:17:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-1.gradwell.net (lon-mail-1.gradwell.net [193.111.201.125]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j88GHdfP036850 for ; Thu, 8 Sep 2005 09:17:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-69-100.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.69.100]) by lon-mail-1.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.190) id 43206422.17993.14e3 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Thu, 8 Sep 2005 17:17:38 +0100 (envelope-sender ) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j88GCDw18335 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Thu, 8 Sep 2005 17:12:13 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:22502 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" Subject: Re: Allowing IP addresses as path-identiites Message-ID: X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <572CD0E1D0957B0EFAD23738@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <6C715BFE8359F291F057BD04@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <$g38OuHt4XHDFAKS@highwayman.com> <877jduqf2e.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <431DD5E2.5040802@mibsoftware.com> <4C8F9B0B48686F7B528A298D@[10.61.80.31]> <431E698C.6090602@mibsoftware.com> <431E9080.1708@xyzzy.claranet.de> <431EE800.5000007@mibsoftware.com> Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 14:35:48 GMT Lines: 67 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: In <431EE800.5000007@mibsoftware.com> "Forrest J. Cavalier III" writes: >Does that mean that someone saying NO for path-identity is also >saying that they reject uses of IP for diagnostics in path-list, since >the grammar says a path-list contains path-identities, not server-names? No, the idea is that the syntax will be so written that IP addresses are not allowed in s, but will be allowed in s (or whatever we choose to call them). If there is some technical difficulty in writing that syntax, then it will be written as a prohibition in the wording. It will be my intention, as soon as this issue is decided, to propose a syntax, probably in two versions, with the diagnostic stuff incorporating some sort of keyword in one of them. Injection-Info and Xref will use only . Even if we do allow IP addresses in (which I still favour), I don't think they would do any actual harm (e.g. parsing problems) in either of those headers. >If people think they want IP addresses for diagnostics, but not >servers, it is another example of syntax that is easy to construct, >but impossible to determine if something is a server identity or a diagnostic >when parsing. (I object to all syntax that is "write only", including >a References: header field which cannot be used to determine followups.) There I agree with youom odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EDP6z-0008Ng-7b for usefor-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 08 Sep 2005 12:18:53 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA01118 for ; Thu, 8 Sep 2005 12:18:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j88GHfm9036877; Thu, 8 Sep 2005 09:17:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j88GHfFw036874; Thu, 8 Sep 2005 09:17:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-1.gradwell.net (lon-mail-1.gradwell.net [193.111.201.125]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j88GHdfP036850 for ; Thu, 8 Sep 2005 09:17:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-69-100.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.69.100]) by lon-mail-1.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.190) id 43206422.17993.14e3 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Thu, 8 Sep 2005 17:17:38 +0100 (envelope-sender ) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j88GCDw18335 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Thu, 8 Sep 2005 17:12:13 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:22502 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" Subject: Re: Allowing IP addresses as path-identiites Message-ID: X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <572CD0E1D0957B0EFAD23738@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <6C715BFE8359F291F057BD04@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <$g38OuHt4XHDFAKS@highwayman.com> <877jduqf2e.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <431DD5E2.5040802@mibsoftware.com> <4C8F9B0B48686F7B528A298D@[10.61.80.31]> <431E698C.6090602@mibsoftware.com> <431E9080.1708@xyzzy.claranet.de> <431EE800.5000007@mibsoftware.com> Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 14:35:48 GMT Lines: 67 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: In <431EE800.5000007@mibsoftware.com> "Forrest J. Cavalier III" writes: >Does that mean that someone saying NO for path-identity is also >saying that they reject uses of IP for diagnostics in path-list, since >the grammar says a path-list contains path-identities, not server-names? No, the idea is that the syntax will be so written that IP addresses are not allowed in s, but will be allowed in s (or whatever we choose to call them). If there is some technical difficulty in writing that syntax, then it will be written as a prohibition in the wording. It will be my intention, as soon as this issue is decided, to propose a syntax, probably in two versions, with the diagnostic stuff incorporating some sort of keyword in one of them. Injection-Info and Xref will use only . Even if we do allow IP addresses in (which I still favour), I don't think they would do any actual harm (e.g. parsing problems) in either of those headers. >If people think they want IP addresses for diagnostics, but not >servers, it is another example of syntax that is easy to construct, >but impossible to determine if something is a server identity or a diagnostic >when parsing. (I object to all syntax that is "write only", including >a References: header field which cannot be used to determine followups.) There I agree with you. This restriction, if we agree to it, will be impossible to enforce. Relayers, when examing the Path, are never going to do more that take whatever stuff is between the delimiters (however they understand what a delimiter is) and check whether that stuff matches one of their peers. >If people don't want to allow IP addresses for path-identities, then >they should poll on whether it is a MUST NOT, SHOULD NOT, MUST REJECT, >MUST NOT RELAY. I think the only viable options there are MUST NOT/SHOULD NOT generate, which correspond pretty well to the NO and YES options in the poll. >Charles was correct in pointing out that I should reconsider and >indicate MUST ACCEPT, SHOULD NOT generate when used in path-list. Or, if the >path-list syntax is changed to distinguish diagnostics (such as a prefix >keyword starting with ".") then MUST ACCEPT, MUST NOT generate, MAY use the keyword >prefix + IP address. That is pretty close to "YES". >But MUST NOT for server-name, and SHOULD NOT when path-identity for >Injection-info. But I fail to see why you would want to make Xref different. Nobody really cares about Xref, so long as the list of s in it can be extracted so as to prevent crossposts from showing up twice. The there is really only for humans to look at. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 . This restriction, if we agree to it, will be impossible to enforce. Relayers, when examing the Path, are never going to do more that take whatever stuff is between the delimiters (however they understand what a delimiter is) and check whether that stuff matches one of their peers. >If people don't want to allow IP addresses for path-identities, then >they should poll on whether it is a MUST NOT, SHOULD NOT, MUST REJECT, >MUST NOT RELAY. I think the only viable options there are MUST NOT/SHOULD NOT generate, which correspond pretty well to the NO and YES options in the poll. >Charles was correct in pointing out that I should reconsider and >indicate MUST ACCEPT, SHOULD NOT generate when used in path-list. Or, if the >path-list syntax is changed to distinguish diagnostics (such as a prefix >keyword starting with ".") then MUST ACCEPT, MUST NOT generate, MAY use the keyword >prefix + IP address. That is pretty close to "YES". >But MUST NOT for server-name, and SHOULD NOT when path-identity for >Injection-info. But I fail to see why you would want to make Xref different. Nobody really cares about Xref, so long as the list of s in it can be extracted so as to prevent crossposts from showing up twice. The there is really only for humans to look at. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 From owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Thu Sep 08 14:02:37 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EDQjN-0001UK-O1 for usefor-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 08 Sep 2005 14:02:37 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA06472 for ; Thu, 8 Sep 2005 14:02:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j88I1TGp048292; Thu, 8 Sep 2005 11:01:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j88I1TpT048291; Thu, 8 Sep 2005 11:01:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail02.peak.org (b.mail.peak.org [69.59.192.42]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j88I1SxA048273 for ; Thu, 8 Sep 2005 11:01:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stanley@peak.org) Received: from a.shell.peak.org (a.shell.peak.org [69.59.192.81]) by mail02.peak.org (8.12.10/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j88I0q0R001943 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 8 Sep 2005 11:00:54 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 11:01:20 -0700 (PDT) From: John Stanley X-X-Sender: stanley@a.shell.peak.org To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: Allowing IP addresses as path-identiites Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Score: 0 () X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.39 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: "Charles Lindsey" : >No, the idea is that the syntax will be so written that IP addresses are >not allowed in s, but will be allowed in >s (or whatever we choose to call them). Having just been told that I was being an obstructionist for not discussing the "one document" that we are supposed to discuss when I responded to one of Charles's proposed texts for USAGE, I'll be happy to point out that USEPRO does not contain syntax for the path header. That's in USEFOR, and USEFOR contains no such "diagnostic-identity" definition. Adding that syntax to that draft would be silly, since there is no real difference between a "path-identity" and a "diagnostic-thingy". If we cannot allow IPv6 address literals as path-identities because they would confuse existing software into thinking there were multiple non-unique path-identities (the "dead:beef" problem), then they cannot be allowed as "diagnostic-thingys" in the same header field for the very same reason. If we solve the dead:beef problem (I mean, use the solution already proposed), then we might as well allow them as path-identities. And stop wasting the time debating what a "diagnotic thingy" is and how to differentiate it and what to do when someone violates the rules. From owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Thu Sep 08 19:37:31 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EDVxT-0002SZ-0K for usefor-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 08 Sep 2005 19:37:31 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA05660 for ; Thu, 8 Sep 2005 19:37:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j88NZLgQ085031; Thu, 8 Sep 2005 16:35:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j88NZKn4085030; Thu, 8 Sep 2005 16:35:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from colo.khms.westfalen.de (Debian-exim@colo.khms.westfalen.de [213.239.196.208]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j88NZJcL085022 for ; Thu, 8 Sep 2005 16:35:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kaih@khms.westfalen.de) Received: from khms.vpn ([10.172.192.2]:55605 helo=khms.westfalen.de) by colo.khms.westfalen.de with esmtpsa (TLS-1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA:32) (auth_id=khms) (Exim 4.50) id 1EDVsW-0000Nx-PY for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Fri, 09 Sep 2005 01:32:24 +0200 Received: from root (helo=khms.westfalen.de) by khms.westfalen.de with local-bsmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1EDVXP-0003HY-8T for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Fri, 09 Sep 2005 01:10:35 +0200 Received: by khms.westfalen.de (CrossPoint v3.12d.kh15 R/C435); 09 Sep 2005 00:58:28 +0200 Date: 08 Sep 2005 22:18:00 +0200 From: kaih@khms.westfalen.de (Kai Henningsen) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Message-ID: <9dTjm4yHw-B@khms.westfalen.de> In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: #1047 Path field delimiters and syntax - status X-Mailer: CrossPoint v3.12d.kh15 R/C435 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Organization: Organisation? Me?! Are you kidding? References: <572CD0E1D0957B0EFAD23738@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> X-No-Junk-Mail: I do not want to get *any* junk mail. Comment: Unsolicited commercial mail will incur an US$100 handling fee per received mail. X-Fix-Your-Modem: +++ATS2=255&WO1 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk (Charles Lindsey) wrote on 05.09.05 in : > s can take the following forms (in decreasing order of > preference): > > 1. A fully qualified domain name (FQDN) associated with an "A" or > "AAAA" record identifying that news-server, or with an "MX" record > through which its administrators can be contacted; alternatively > an equivalent "CNAME". I think you're missing here a FQDN not associated with any of these, possibly not even existing according to DNS, but within "your" sphere of administration - that is, a FQDN which "you" could make exist or associate with one of the above, but haven't. Because I'd still see that preferrable to your case 2, and it's certainly a case where whoever decides on the name has control over the uniqueness of the name just as for 1. You currently subsume this under 3, where I don't think it belongs. > 2. An encoding of the public [RFC 1918], permanently routable IP > address - or [RFC 3986] - of that > news-server. This option SHOULD NOT be used if an FQDN for that > server is available (however, such IP addresses are perfectly > suitable for purely diagnostic identities [reference needed to > later section]). > > 3. Some other (arbitrary) name believed to be unique and registered > at least with all other news-servers sending articles directly to > the given one. This option SHOULD NOT be used unless the earlier > options are unavailable (e.g. because the server in question is > not connected to the Internet), or unless it is of longstanding > usage and cessation would be unduly disruptive, or unless one > of the earlier options is provided as well. MfG Kai From owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Fri Sep 09 08:06:59 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EDhel-0003KW-A9 for usefor-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 09 Sep 2005 08:06:59 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA27522 for ; Fri, 9 Sep 2005 08:06:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j89C5TYJ058443; Fri, 9 Sep 2005 05:05:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j89C5Tnm058442; Fri, 9 Sep 2005 05:05:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j89C5SSE058435 for ; Fri, 9 Sep 2005 05:05:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from harald@alvestrand.no) Received: from localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9541320092 for ; Fri, 9 Sep 2005 14:05:03 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 17910-03 for ; Fri, 9 Sep 2005 14:04:59 +0200 (CEST) Received: from halvestr-w2k02.emea.cisco.com (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6F4B32008F for ; Fri, 9 Sep 2005 14:04:58 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 09 Sep 2005 13:42:35 +0200 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: #1132: Allowing IP addresses as path-identiites - Poll result Message-ID: <9F009A3C66B6C79AEB4756D7@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> In-Reply-To: <6C715BFE8359F291F057BD04@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> References: <572CD0E1D0957B0EFAD23738@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <6C715BFE8359F291F057BD04@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.0.3 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="==========23BD183AB56303D73ECC==========" X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at alvestrand.no Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: --==========23BD183AB56303D73ECC========== Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Poll text: > chair hat on: > > it's "me-too" time. > If you have an opinion of whether or not we should allow IP addresses as > path-identities, either YES or NO, please speak up. > > YES - IP addresses should be allowed as path-identity. > NO - IP addresses should not be allowed as path-identity. > > NOTE: If we disallow IP addresses as path-identities, we will still allow > them as "diagnostic data" - nobody's proposed that we should declare > articles that have IP addresses in the path as non-conformant. However, > if we disallow them, they WILL be disallowed in Injection-info and Xref, > which are the two other places that use them. I've taken out ticket #1132 to cover this specific issue, rather than the=20 more generic #1047 ticket. They're linked in the tracker. Result: > YES - IP addresses should be allowed as path-identity. John Stanley Charles Lindsey > NO - IP addresses should not be allowed as path-identity. Richard Clayton Russ Allbery Frank Ellermann Dan Schlitt > Other answers, like "you did not specify the question correctly" Forrest J. Cavalier I'll write up a suggested modification to section 3.2.1 based on this. --==========23BD183AB56303D73ECC========== Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (MingW32) iD8DBQFDIXUrOMj+2+WY0F4RAoRGAKC6JNyZAC5bldB2J2gZV4GaifAZZACfYqK2 QoRJw4kQdy6xRJCEnY0fxT8= =xFAe -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --==========23BD183AB56303D73ECC==========-- From owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Fri Sep 09 12:14:48 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EDlWa-0005Z4-4q for usefor-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 09 Sep 2005 12:14:48 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA12086 for ; Fri, 9 Sep 2005 12:14:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j89GDVQu087082; Fri, 9 Sep 2005 09:13:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j89GDVVA087081; Fri, 9 Sep 2005 09:13:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-4.gradwell.net (lon-mail-4.gradwell.net [193.111.201.130]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j89GDREv087072 for ; Fri, 9 Sep 2005 09:13:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-68-49.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.68.49]) by lon-mail-4.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 4321b4a5.16894.104 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Fri, 9 Sep 2005 17:13:25 +0100 (envelope-sender ) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j89GCQn28371 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Fri, 9 Sep 2005 17:12:26 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:22506 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" Subject: Re: #1047 Path field delimiters and syntax - status Message-ID: X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <572CD0E1D0957B0EFAD23738@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <9dTjm4yHw-B@khms.westfalen.de> Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2005 13:45:05 GMT Lines: 57 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: In <9dTjm4yHw-B@khms.westfalen.de> kaih@khms.westfalen.de (Kai Henningsen) writes: >chl@clerew.man.ac.uk (Charles Lindsey) wrote on 05.09.05 in : >> s can take the following forms (in decreasing order of >> preference): >> >> 1. A fully qualified domain name (FQDN) associated with an "A" or >> "AAAA" record identifying that news-server, or with an "MX" record >> through which its administrators can be contacted; alternatively >> an equivalent "CNAME". >I think you're missing here a FQDN not associated with any of these, >possibly not even existing according to DNS, but within "your" sphere of >administration - that is, a FQDN which "you" could make exist or associate >with one of the above, but haven't. I don't think I would really like that usage, but it could be written into Case 1 if people want it so. We certainly need domain names that are not A or AAAA records because some servers might not always be on line, and might be using a leased IP. For example, my own server would use clerew.man.ac.uk, which is an MX record (I have no fixed IP address). But I would much prefer to stick with domain-names that resolve to at least something in the DNS. >Because I'd still see that preferrable to your case 2, and it's certainly >a case where whoever decides on the name has control over the uniqueness >of the name just as for 1. >You currently subsume this under 3, where I don't think it belongs. >> 3. Some other (arbitrary) name believed to be unique and registered >> at least with all other news-servers sending articles directly to >> the given one. This option SHOULD NOT be used unless the earlier >> options are unavailable (e.g. because the server in question is >> not connected to the Internet), or unless it is of longstanding >> usage and cessation would be unduly disruptive, or unless one >> of the earlier options is provided as well. One of my worries is that s (as we seem to be calling case 3) will also need a syntax. Clearly it will not allow a ':' (that is where this whole argument started), but would it allow a domain-name, or even an IPv4Address (which would defeat the object of the proposed restriction)? Maybe a should be defined as needing to contain at least one ALPHA. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 From owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Fri Sep 09 12:27:57 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EDljJ-0001r1-P8 for usefor-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 09 Sep 2005 12:27:57 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA12825 for ; Fri, 9 Sep 2005 12:27:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j89GR3eM088293; Fri, 9 Sep 2005 09:27:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j89GR3Jr088292; Fri, 9 Sep 2005 09:27:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-4.gradwell.net (lon-mail-4.gradwell.net [193.111.201.130]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j89GR1Qe088284 for ; Fri, 9 Sep 2005 09:27:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-68-49.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.68.49]) by lon-mail-4.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.186) id 4321b4a4.16894.103 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Fri, 9 Sep 2005 17:13:24 +0100 (envelope-sender ) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j89GCRx28376 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Fri, 9 Sep 2005 17:12:27 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:22507 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" Subject: Re: Allowing IP addresses as path-identiites Message-ID: X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2005 13:53:45 GMT Lines: 42 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: In John Stanley writes: >"Charles Lindsey" : >>No, the idea is that the syntax will be so written that IP addresses are >>not allowed in s, but will be allowed in >>s (or whatever we choose to call them). >Adding that syntax to that draft would be silly, since there is no real >difference between a "path-identity" and a "diagnostic-thingy". The intention AIUI is to put this restriction, presumably as syntax, in USEFOR. There may well be a syntactic difference between a "path-identity" and a "diagnostic-thingy" (both Forrest and I have suggested that). >If we cannot allow IPv6 address literals as path-identities because they >would confuse existing software into thinking there were multiple >non-unique path-identities (the "dead:beef" problem), then they cannot be >allowed as "diagnostic-thingys" in the same header field for the very same >reason. Yes I agree with you entirely, for once, but we seem to be the only two taking that position so far. >If we solve the dead:beef problem (I mean, use the solution already >proposed), The dead:beef problem has been much over-hyped; I don't think it is a show stopper (though if you suddenly wanted to allow ':'s in s it might become one). So long as we can tell people to avoid s consisting of hexadecimal digits only, it need not be an issue. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 From owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Sat Sep 10 09:40:48 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EE5b5-0007h7-Gf for usefor-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 10 Sep 2005 09:40:48 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA02592 for ; Sat, 10 Sep 2005 09:40:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j8ADdKEj047361; Sat, 10 Sep 2005 06:39:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j8ADdKRI047360; Sat, 10 Sep 2005 06:39:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j8ADdIUs047353 for ; Sat, 10 Sep 2005 06:39:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from harald@alvestrand.no) Received: from localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 373F032008D; Sat, 10 Sep 2005 15:38:53 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 25133-09; Sat, 10 Sep 2005 15:38:50 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.1.145] (163.80-203-220.nextgentel.com [80.203.220.163]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1AEDE320089; Sat, 10 Sep 2005 15:38:49 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2005 15:39:13 +0200 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand To: Charles Lindsey , ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1047 Path field delimiters and syntax - status Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: <572CD0E1D0957B0EFAD23738@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <9dTjm4yHw-B@khms.westfalen.de> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.6 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at alvestrand.no Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --On fredag, september 09, 2005 13:45:05 +0000 Charles Lindsey wrote: >> I think you're missing here a FQDN not associated with any of these, >> possibly not even existing according to DNS, but within "your" sphere of >> administration - that is, a FQDN which "you" could make exist or >> associate with one of the above, but haven't. > > I don't think I would really like that usage, but it could be written into > Case 1 if people want it so. I think you can make that a Case 2; given that your previous case 2 should disappear, the number's free. There's tradition for using DNS names like that - in another discussion, I got the following piece quoted at me from RFC 2486, Section 6: NAI realm names are required to be unique and the rights to use a given NAI realm for roaming purposes are obtained coincident with acquiring the rights to use a particular fully qualified domain name (FQDN). Those wishing to use an NAI realm name should first acquire the rights to use the corresponding FQDN. Using an NAI realm without ownership of the corresponding FQDN creates the possibility of conflict and therefore is to be discouraged. (NAIs are the things that look just like email addresses but aren't - they are used as principal identifiers in some VPN authentication schemes). From owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Sun Sep 11 05:19:25 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EENzd-0007ID-BB for usefor-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 11 Sep 2005 05:19:25 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA25411 for ; Sun, 11 Sep 2005 05:19:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j8B9HNhH043941; Sun, 11 Sep 2005 02:17:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j8B9HNMH043940; Sun, 11 Sep 2005 02:17:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from colo.khms.westfalen.de (Debian-exim@colo.khms.westfalen.de [213.239.196.208]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j8B9HL0w043928 for ; Sun, 11 Sep 2005 02:17:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kaih@khms.westfalen.de) Received: from khms.vpn ([10.172.192.2]:58120 helo=khms.westfalen.de ident=Debian-exim) by colo.khms.westfalen.de with esmtpsa (TLS-1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA:32) (auth_id=khms) (Exim 4.50) id 1EENxg-0005Nb-GZ for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Sun, 11 Sep 2005 11:17:20 +0200 Received: from root (helo=khms.westfalen.de) by khms.westfalen.de with local-bsmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1EENxd-0005v5-HP for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Sun, 11 Sep 2005 11:17:17 +0200 Received: by khms.westfalen.de (CrossPoint v3.12d.kh15 R/C435); 11 Sep 2005 11:09:21 +0200 Date: 11 Sep 2005 10:51:00 +0200 From: kaih@khms.westfalen.de (Kai Henningsen) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Message-ID: <9ddjHkF1w-B@khms.westfalen.de> In-Reply-To: Subject: Re: #1047 Path field delimiters and syntax - status X-Mailer: CrossPoint v3.12d.kh15 R/C435 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Organization: Organisation? Me?! Are you kidding? References: <572CD0E1D0957B0EFAD23738@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <9dTjm4yHw-B@khms.westfalen.de> X-No-Junk-Mail: I do not want to get *any* junk mail. Comment: Unsolicited commercial mail will incur an US$100 handling fee per received mail. X-Fix-Your-Modem: +++ATS2=255&WO1 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk (Charles Lindsey) wrote on 09.09.05 in : > In <9dTjm4yHw-B@khms.westfalen.de> kaih@khms.westfalen.de (Kai Henningsen) > writes: > > >chl@clerew.man.ac.uk (Charles Lindsey) wrote on 05.09.05 in > >: > >> 3. Some other (arbitrary) name believed to be unique and registered > >> at least with all other news-servers sending articles directly to > >> the given one. This option SHOULD NOT be used unless the earlier > >> options are unavailable (e.g. because the server in question is > >> not connected to the Internet), or unless it is of longstanding > >> usage and cessation would be unduly disruptive, or unless one > >> of the earlier options is provided as well. > > One of my worries is that s (as we seem to be calling case 3) > will also need a syntax. Clearly it will not allow a ':' (that is where > this whole argument started), but would it allow a domain-name, or even an > IPv4Address (which would defeat the object of the proposed restriction)? > > Maybe a should be defined as needing to contain at least one > ALPHA. Hmm. I think the only place I've seen the term used before was in Perl, and so to me it suggests the syntax of a language identifier - that is, a letter followed by letters, digits, and underscores, and nothing else - and that includes no dots. If that's not what we mean, I would very much prefer us using a different name for it. MfG Kai From owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Sun Sep 11 13:13:42 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EEVOe-0002DB-KI for usefor-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 11 Sep 2005 13:13:42 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA13626 for ; Sun, 11 Sep 2005 13:13:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j8BHBtnS077835; Sun, 11 Sep 2005 10:11:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j8BHBt7m077834; Sun, 11 Sep 2005 10:11:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j8BHBrOS077828 for ; Sun, 11 Sep 2005 10:11:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from root by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1EEVLr-0004SX-Hv for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Sun, 11 Sep 2005 19:10:47 +0200 Received: from c-180-160-102.hh.dial.de.ignite.net ([62.180.160.102]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sun, 11 Sep 2005 19:10:47 +0200 Received: from nobody by c-180-160-102.hh.dial.de.ignite.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Sun, 11 Sep 2005 19:10:47 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Frank Ellermann Subject: 2822bis (was: Virtual last call on "bounce") Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2005 11:30:40 +0200 Organization: Lines: 35 Message-ID: <4323F940.F53.EAGAIN@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <1C8A54349012EA95FEE4AAAB@scan.jck.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-180-160-102.hh.dial.de.ignite.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John C Klensin wrote in : > I am somewhat disinclined to get 2821bis-02, or even > 2821bis-01, posted before 2822bis-00 appears, so people who > would like to see faster turnover on 2821bis drafts should > be pinging Pete. Starting 2822bis before the core USEFOR document is ready (or the USEFOR WG terminated) would be an _excessively_ bad idea. If the author feels otherwise he's invited to the Message-ID threads in USEFOR, that would be literally hundreds of articles from Bruce, Charles, me, and others. NO-WS-CTL and some other creatures. AFAIK Bruce intends to integrate 2047 (2231) encoded words into 2822bis, even deciding if that's a good or bad idea could be a major effort. Last but not least there's this Resent-* problem that made it into one of two senderid appeals some days ago. 2822bis is hot stuff, and that really cries for a WG... in 2006, not now. OTOH working on 2821bis is so far not very controversional, and to my surprise even hardcore SPF and CSV friends have similar visions not limited to HELO and EHLO. I don't see why you should wait for a 2822bis -00. But there are serious reasons why a 2822bis -00 should wait for usefor-06 (somewhere between almost ready or finally give up). Bye, Frank P.S.: also posted to USEFOR for info From owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Mon Sep 12 10:17:23 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EEp7a-0006Fn-B6 for usefor-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 12 Sep 2005 10:17:23 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA20840 for ; Mon, 12 Sep 2005 10:17:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j8CEFlTY078451; Mon, 12 Sep 2005 07:15:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j8CEFlBg078450; Mon, 12 Sep 2005 07:15:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-3.gradwell.net (lon-mail-3.gradwell.net [193.111.201.127]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j8CEFkqi078427 for ; Mon, 12 Sep 2005 07:15:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-71-8.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.71.8]) by lon-mail-3.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.191) id 43258d91.1838d.2e for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Mon, 12 Sep 2005 15:15:45 +0100 (envelope-sender ) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j8CEENs24509 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Mon, 12 Sep 2005 15:14:23 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:22513 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" Subject: Re: #1047 Path field delimiters and syntax - status Message-ID: X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <572CD0E1D0957B0EFAD23738@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <9dTjm4yHw-B@khms.westfalen.de> Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 12:28:54 GMT Lines: 45 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: In Harald Tveit Alvestrand writes: >--On fredag, september 09, 2005 13:45:05 +0000 Charles Lindsey > wrote: >>> I think you're missing here a FQDN not associated with any of these, >>> possibly not even existing according to DNS, but within "your" sphere of >>> administration - that is, a FQDN which "you" could make exist or >>> associate with one of the above, but haven't. >There's tradition for using DNS names like that - in another discussion, I >got the following piece quoted at me from RFC 2486, Section 6: > NAI realm names are required to be unique and the rights to use a > given NAI realm for roaming purposes are obtained coincident with > acquiring the rights to use a particular fully qualified domain name > (FQDN). Those wishing to use an NAI realm name should first acquire > the rights to use the corresponding FQDN. Using an NAI realm without > ownership of the corresponding FQDN creates the possibility of > conflict and therefore is to be discouraged. Yes, but that does not go as far as Forrest was suggesting. RFC 2486 makes it clear that if you want to use foo.bar.example.com as an NAI realm, then it had better resolve to _something_ in the DNS (though maybe a mere TXT record would suffice). What Forrest seems to be suggesting is that, if bar.example.com belongs to you, and is recorded in the nameserver for example.com, then you should automatically be allowed to use foo.bar.example.com as a without having it recorded in the DNS, either by the nameserver at example.com, or by whatever nameserver you establish for bar.example.com. That is going too far for my taste (though it could certainlky be written into USEPRO if that is what this WG really wants). -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 From owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Mon Sep 12 10:17:23 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EEp7Z-0006Ds-3Z for usefor-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 12 Sep 2005 10:17:23 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA20834 for ; Mon, 12 Sep 2005 10:17:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j8CEFnD1078461; Mon, 12 Sep 2005 07:15:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j8CEFnbn078460; Mon, 12 Sep 2005 07:15:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-3.gradwell.net (lon-mail-3.gradwell.net [193.111.201.127]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j8CEFmd4078453 for ; Mon, 12 Sep 2005 07:15:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-71-8.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.71.8]) by lon-mail-3.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.191) id 43258d92.1838d.2f for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Mon, 12 Sep 2005 15:15:46 +0100 (envelope-sender ) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j8CEEPi24518 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Mon, 12 Sep 2005 15:14:25 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:22515 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" Subject: Re: #1132: Allowing IP addresses as path-identiites - Poll result Message-ID: X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <572CD0E1D0957B0EFAD23738@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <6C715BFE8359F291F057BD04@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <9F009A3C66B6C79AEB4756D7@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 14:13:23 GMT Lines: 192 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: In <9F009A3C66B6C79AEB4756D7@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> Harald Tveit Alvestrand writes: >I've taken out ticket #1132 to cover this specific issue, rather than the=20 >more generic #1047 ticket. They're linked in the tracker. >Result: >> YES - IP addresses should be allowed as path-identity. >John Stanley >Charles Lindsey >> NO - IP addresses should not be allowed as path-identity. >Richard Clayton >Russ Allbery >Frank Ellermann >Dan Schlitt I am disappointed at the way the decision went, but I have to live with it. >I'll write up a suggested modification to section 3.2.1 based on this. What is written has to be carefully tailored to what will be written in USEFOR. Here is a suggested text (or rather two texts, with the second one using SEEN/MATCH/MISMATCH to distingish diagnostics, which I propose to call s, from s. I have followed Kai's suggestion for restricting the syntax of . Injection-Infor and Xref will simply use as redefined. 3.1.6 Path The Path header field indicates the route taken by an article since its injection into the Netnews system. Each agent that processes an | article is required to prepend a to this header field body. ....... [1st version of syntax, following the usage of POSTED and MISMATCH in the present USEFOR.] path = "Path" ":" SP [FWS] *( path-entry "!" [FWS]) tail-entry [FWS] CRLF path-entry = path-identity *( "!" path-identity ) [ "!" "POSTED" ] [ [ source-identity [ "!" "MISMATCH" ] ] "!" ] path-identity = dot-atom-text / bareword bareword = ALPHA *( [ "-" / "_" ] (ALPHA / DIGIT) ) tail-entry = dot-atom-text / bareword source-identity = dot-atom-text / IP-address / bareword IP-address = IPv4address / IPv6address ; see [RFC 3986] Each (but not the ) indicates, from right to left, the successive sites through which the article has passed. The keyword "POSTED" indicates that the agent to its left injected the article. A , if present, indicates the true source from which the agent to its left acquired the article (and any following "!MISMATCH" asserts that this differs from the (s) inserted by the preceding site, whereas two "!"s in succession indicate that the preceding (s) accords with that true source). The full procedure for constructing a as well as the preferred format to be used in a are discussed in [USEPRO]. NOTE: An is the only place where a ":" can occur within a . Since some current news-servers may treat ":" as a delimiter (in addition to the customary "!"), it is inadvisable for any to be composed only from hexadecimal digits. NOTE: Historically, the ......... NOTE: Although case-insensitive, it is intended that the keywords "POSTED" and "MISMATCH" should be in upper case, to distinguish them from the s which are traditionally in lower case. [2nd version of syntax, making s readily distinguishable from s.] path = "Path" ":" SP [FWS] *( path-entry "!" [FWS]) tail-entry [FWS] CRLF path-entry = path-identity *( "!" path-identity )[ "!" "POSTED" ] [ [ path-source ] "!" ] path-identity = dot-atom-text / bareword bareword = ALPHA *( [ "-" / "_" ] (ALPHA / DIGIT) ) tail-entry = dot-atom-text / bareword path-source = source-identity ( ".SEEN" / ".MATCH" / ".MISMATCH" ) source-identity = dot-atom-text / IP-address / bareword IP-address = IPv4address / IPv6address ; see [RFC 3986] Each (but not the ) indicates, from right to left, the successive sites through which the article has passed. The keyword "POSTED" indicates that the agent to its left injected the article. A , if present, indicates the true source from which the agent to its left acquired the article, and whether it accords with the (s) inserted by the preceding site. Two "!"s in succession are equivelent to "!site.example.MATCH!" where "site.example" agrees with that preceding (s). The full procedure ........ NOTE: An is the only place ........... NOTE: Historically, the ......... NOTE: Although case-insensitive, it is intended that the "SEEN", "POSTED" or "MISMATCH" in a should be in upper case, to distinguish them from the s which are traditionally in lower case. In the following examples, "upstream.example.com" is a site which has just sent an article (or so it is claimed) to "downstream.example.com". "123.123.123.123" is the IP address from which downstream received it, which may or may not be the IP address of upstream. The examples show the full inserted by downstream, followed by (at least the start of) the inserted by upstream. 1. downstream.example.com!123.123.123.123.SEEN!upstream.example.com... 2. downstream.example.com!123.123.123.123.MISMATCH!upstream.example.com... 3. downstream.example.com!123.123.123.123.MATCH!upstream.example.com... 4. downstream.example.com!!upstream.example.com... 5. downstream.example.com!upstream.example.com... All the diagnostic s are immediately distinguishable from the s by the presence of a big uppercase keyword. Even if you thought 123.123.123.123 was a site to which you were not supposed to send articles, no current implementation would recognize it as such in any of those examples. Ex1. Downstream recorded that 123.123.123.123 was the source of the article "just for the hell of it". It makes no claim to have verified that it belonged to upstream. Ex2. Downstream recorded that 123.123.123.123 was the source of the article and asserted that it no way matched any known address associated with upstream. Some current practice uses exactly that notation. Ex3. Downstream recorded that 123.123.123.123 was the source of the article and asserted that it was indeed a known address used by upstream. In which case you may ask why it bothered to clutter the Path by quoting it in full. Ex4. Downstream noted the IP (whatever) of the source and asserts that it was indeed a known address used by upstream. But it did not clutter the Path with unnecessary detail. That is the notation proposed in the current drafts, and will hopefully be the commonest case. Ex5. Downstream made no checks and makes no assertions. That is essentially current practice which we hope will be replaced by Ex4 over time. I have shown no example using the optional "!POSTED", but that would only be inserted by an injecting agent, in which case any shown would presumably be the posting host. NOTE: The use of an IP address for the in the examples does not imply that a corresponding domain name could not have been used instead (indeed, it would be more user-friendly to have done so). So Ex3 could as well have been written 3. downstream.example.com!upstream.example.com.MATCH!upstream.example.com... Observe that folding is not allowed in the middle of a . -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 From owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Mon Sep 12 10:17:25 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EEp7Y-0006Dk-SO for usefor-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 12 Sep 2005 10:17:25 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA20833 for ; Mon, 12 Sep 2005 10:17:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j8CEFlst078441; Mon, 12 Sep 2005 07:15:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j8CEFl2G078439; Mon, 12 Sep 2005 07:15:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-3.gradwell.net (lon-mail-3.gradwell.net [193.111.201.127]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j8CEFjGe078424 for ; Mon, 12 Sep 2005 07:15:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-71-8.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.71.8]) by lon-mail-3.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.191) id 43258d8f.1838d.2c for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Mon, 12 Sep 2005 15:15:43 +0100 (envelope-sender ) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j8CEEOa24513 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Mon, 12 Sep 2005 15:14:24 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:22514 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" Subject: Re: #1047 Path field delimiters and syntax - status Message-ID: X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <572CD0E1D0957B0EFAD23738@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <9dTjm4yHw-B@khms.westfalen.de> <9ddjHkF1w-B@khms.westfalen.de> Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 12:49:42 GMT Lines: 39 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: In <9ddjHkF1w-B@khms.westfalen.de> kaih@khms.westfalen.de (Kai Henningsen) writes: >chl@clerew.man.ac.uk (Charles Lindsey) wrote on 09.09.05 in : >> In <9dTjm4yHw-B@khms.westfalen.de> kaih@khms.westfalen.de (Kai Henningsen) >> writes: >> >> Maybe a should be defined as needing to contain at least one >> ALPHA. >Hmm. >I think the only place I've seen the term used before was in Perl, and so >to me it suggests the syntax of a language identifier - that is, a letter >followed by letters, digits, and underscores, and nothing else - and that >includes no dots. The term was introduced by Harald ro describe all those s that were neither domain names nor IP addresses. And actually, I think restricting their syntax to what you describe might actually make good sense. Does anyone know of existing practice contrary to that? >If that's not what we mean, I would very much prefer us using a different >name for it. Sure. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 From owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Mon Sep 12 10:17:45 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EEp7x-0006Kk-6f for usefor-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 12 Sep 2005 10:17:45 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA20847 for ; Mon, 12 Sep 2005 10:17:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j8CEFl3K078442; Mon, 12 Sep 2005 07:15:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j8CEFlK7078440; Mon, 12 Sep 2005 07:15:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from lon-mail-3.gradwell.net (lon-mail-3.gradwell.net [193.111.201.127]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j8CEFj2F078425 for ; Mon, 12 Sep 2005 07:15:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from news@clerew.man.ac.uk) Received: from host81-144-71-8.midband.mdip.bt.net ([81.144.71.8]) by lon-mail-3.gradwell.net with esmtp (Gradwell gwh-smtpd 1.191) id 43258d90.1838d.2d for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Mon, 12 Sep 2005 15:15:44 +0100 (envelope-sender ) Received: (from news@localhost) by clerew.man.ac.uk (8.11.7+Sun/8.11.7) id j8CEEMb24504 for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Mon, 12 Sep 2005 15:14:22 +0100 (BST) To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Xref: clerew local.usefor:22512 Newsgroups: local.usefor Path: clerew!chl From: "Charles Lindsey" Subject: Re: 2822bis (was: Virtual last call on "bounce") Message-ID: X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.2 (NOV) References: <1C8A54349012EA95FEE4AAAB@scan.jck.com> <4323F940.F53.EAGAIN@xyzzy.claranet.de> Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 12:20:00 GMT Lines: 41 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: In <4323F940.F53.EAGAIN@xyzzy.claranet.de> Frank Ellermann writes: >John C Klensin wrote in : >> I am somewhat disinclined to get 2821bis-02, or even >> 2821bis-01, posted before 2822bis-00 appears, so people who >> would like to see faster turnover on 2821bis drafts should >> be pinging Pete. >Starting 2822bis before the core USEFOR document is ready (or >the USEFOR WG terminated) would be an _excessively_ bad idea. Well I wouldn't mind them making a start on it, but it needs to be made clear that compatibility with Netnews/NNTP practice is essential if they expect to get it through the IESG. >AFAIK Bruce intends to integrate 2047 (2231) encoded words into >2822bis, even deciding if that's a good or bad idea could be a >major effort. But that strikes me as an excellent idea. Particularly if they can clean up the RFC 2047 mess in the process (but they should only be considering the small part of 2231 related to language coded in 2047). >P.S.: also posted to USEFOR for info It would help if you had said somewhere which was the primary group to which your message had been posted. -- Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------ Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K. PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5 From owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Mon Sep 12 10:36:07 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EEpPj-00021v-Mj for usefor-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 12 Sep 2005 10:36:07 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA22719 for ; Mon, 12 Sep 2005 10:35:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j8CEYg42080643; Mon, 12 Sep 2005 07:34:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j8CEYggB080642; Mon, 12 Sep 2005 07:34:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no (eikenes.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.233]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j8CEYfNr080635 for ; Mon, 12 Sep 2005 07:34:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from harald@alvestrand.no) Received: from localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F85C320096; Mon, 12 Sep 2005 16:34:14 +0200 (CEST) Received: from eikenes.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (eikenes.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 14297-10; Mon, 12 Sep 2005 16:34:10 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.1.145] (163.80-203-220.nextgentel.com [80.203.220.163]) by eikenes.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id CEFC0320092; Mon, 12 Sep 2005 16:34:08 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 16:34:34 +0200 From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand To: Charles Lindsey , ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: NAI semantics (Re: #1047 Path field delimiters and syntax - status) Message-ID: <1663D67CF83125DFFB970862@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> In-Reply-To: References: <572CD0E1D0957B0EFAD23738@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <9dTjm4yHw-B@khms.westfalen.de> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.6 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at alvestrand.no Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit [Changing subject - far off thread] --On mandag, september 12, 2005 12:28:54 +0000 Charles Lindsey wrote: > Yes, but that does not go as far as Forrest was suggesting. RFC 2486 makes > it clear that if you want to use foo.bar.example.com as an NAI realm, then > it had better resolve to _something_ in the DNS (though maybe a mere TXT > record would suffice). No, it explicitly does not. I did not quote all of RFC 2486, but the document makes it very clear that there is NO requirement for *anything* to be at this point in the DNS. The requirement for using foo.bar.example.com as a NAI is that you have a "right to use" the name foo.bar.example.com in the DNS. This can be an agreement with the bar.example.com administrator, or an agreement with the example.com administrator (if bar isn't administered separately) - there's no need for anything in the DNS. From owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Mon Sep 12 13:53:15 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EEsUO-0007HY-MR for usefor-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 12 Sep 2005 13:53:15 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA04606 for ; Mon, 12 Sep 2005 13:52:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j8CHpc6P097143; Mon, 12 Sep 2005 10:51:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j8CHpccj097142; Mon, 12 Sep 2005 10:51:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail01.peak.org (a.mail.peak.org [69.59.192.41]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j8CHpbjM097135 for ; Mon, 12 Sep 2005 10:51:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stanley@peak.org) Received: from a.shell.peak.org (a.shell.peak.org [69.59.192.81]) by mail01.peak.org (8.12.10/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j8CHopSV054747 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 12 Sep 2005 10:50:51 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 10:51:31 -0700 (PDT) From: John Stanley X-X-Sender: stanley@a.shell.peak.org To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1047 Path field delimiters and syntax - status Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Score: 0 () X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.39 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Harald Tveit Alvestrand : > ... given that your previous case 2 should disappear, Given? The only given about case 2 is that it will continue to happen. When did it become a "given" that it should dissappear? The poll result was 4 to 2 (hardly earthshaking), and the 4 were actually voting that ip literals still be allowed to appear in the path header field but they just won't be called path-identities. It looks like a duck, it walks like a duck, it appears in the same place a duck appears, but it ain't a duck because we think it is "given" that it ain't a duck. Green is red. From owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Mon Sep 12 14:00:33 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EEsbZ-0008Pc-Md for usefor-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 12 Sep 2005 14:00:33 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA04960 for ; Mon, 12 Sep 2005 14:00:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j8CHxBSq097916; Mon, 12 Sep 2005 10:59:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j8CHxBpR097915; Mon, 12 Sep 2005 10:59:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail02.peak.org (b.mail.peak.org [69.59.192.42]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j8CHxB3I097870 for ; Mon, 12 Sep 2005 10:59:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stanley@peak.org) Received: from a.shell.peak.org (a.shell.peak.org [69.59.192.81]) by mail02.peak.org (8.12.10/8.12.8) with ESMTP id j8CHwa0R020527 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 12 Sep 2005 10:58:36 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 10:59:05 -0700 (PDT) From: John Stanley X-X-Sender: stanley@a.shell.peak.org To: ietf-usefor@imc.org Subject: Re: #1132: Allowing IP addresses as path-identiites - Poll result Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Score: 0 () X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.39 Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: "Charles Lindsey" : >[2nd version of syntax, making s readily >distinguishable from s.] > path-identity = dot-atom-text / bareword > source-identity = dot-atom-text / IP-address / bareword How is one "dot-atom-text" readily distinguishable from any other? > NOTE: An is the only place where a ":" can occur > within a . Since some current news-servers may treat > ":" as a delimiter (in addition to the customary "!"), it is > inadvisable for any to be composed only from > hexadecimal digits. Since we can solve this problem TRIVIALLY, why are we still pretending we cannot? Can someone please explain why we ought not use a simple solution and prevent this problem altogether? >All the diagnostic s are immediately distinguishable from the >s by the presence of a big uppercase keyword. Allow me to point out again how ... silly ... this is, to pretend that we cannot have an IP literal as a path-identity, so we define a new kind of thing to allow IP literals to appear in exactly the same places we say they cannot appear when they are called path-identities. From owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Mon Sep 12 23:29:35 2005 Received: from odin.ietf.org ([132.151.1.176] helo=ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.32) id 1EF1UC-0001mL-VD for usefor-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 12 Sep 2005 23:29:35 -0400 Received: from above.proper.com (above.proper.com [208.184.76.39]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA16839 for ; Mon, 12 Sep 2005 23:29:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost.vpnc.org [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j8D3Rvog045947; Mon, 12 Sep 2005 20:27:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9/Submit) id j8D3RvhT045946; Mon, 12 Sep 2005 20:27:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ciao.gmane.org (main.gmane.org [80.91.229.2]) by above.proper.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id j8D3Rs5w045929 for ; Mon, 12 Sep 2005 20:27:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from usenet-format@gmane.org) Received: from list by ciao.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1EF1SN-0005X5-2t for ietf-usefor@imc.org; Tue, 13 Sep 2005 05:27:39 +0200 Received: from c-180-160-145.hh.dial.de.ignite.net ([62.180.160.145]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 13 Sep 2005 05:27:39 +0200 Received: from nobody by c-180-160-145.hh.dial.de.ignite.net with local (Gmexim 0.1 (Debian)) id 1AlnuQ-0007hv-00 for ; Tue, 13 Sep 2005 05:27:39 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: ietf-usefor@imc.org From: Frank Ellermann Subject: Re: #1132: Allowing IP addresses as path-identiites - Poll result Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 05:18:27 +0200 Organization: Lines: 101 Message-ID: <43264503.248B@xyzzy.claranet.de> References: <572CD0E1D0957B0EFAD23738@gloppen.hjemme.alvestrand.no> <6C715BFE8359F291F057BD04@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> <9F009A3C66B6C79AEB4756D7@B50854F0A9192E8EC6CDA126> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: c-180-160-145.hh.dial.de.ignite.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; U) Sender: owner-ietf-usefor@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: List-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Charles Lindsey wrote: > path-identity = dot-atom-text / bareword Hi, you can't say here, it contains some characters we don't like (delimiters for 1036 incl. "!"): ATEXT: ALNUM ! # $ % & ' * + - / = ? ^ _ ` { | } ~ LDH : ALNUM _ Let's stick to some kind of . > bareword = ALPHA *( [ "-" / "_" ] (ALPHA / DIGIT) ) Yes. For a "bare" version of you'd get... ldh-fqdn = ALPHA *( [ "-" / "." ] (ALPHA / DIGIT) ) ...or similar. And for an unambiguous bareword without underscore you'd need the "at least one dot" kludge, i.e. path-identity = ( 1*( label "." ) label ) / bareword label = alphanum [ *( alphanum / "-" ) alphanum ] alphanum = ALPHA / DIGIT There are several cases of ALPHA / DIGIT in USEFOR, so the additional is justified. With that version of