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[read more] ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C8209C.068EE36C-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Nov 06 13:37:23 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IpTIh-000466-It for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 06 Nov 2007 13:37:23 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IpTId-0003oQ-Af for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 06 Nov 2007 13:37:23 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IpTC1-0001Bc-AD for v6ops-data@psg.com; Tue, 06 Nov 2007 18:30:29 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [171.71.176.72] (helo=sj-iport-3.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IpTBW-00017z-Iu for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 06 Nov 2007 18:30:13 +0000 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.21,379,1188802800"; d="scan'208";a="543790593" Received: from sj-dkim-1.cisco.com ([171.71.179.21]) by sj-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP; 06 Nov 2007 10:29:58 -0800 Received: from sj-core-1.cisco.com (sj-core-1.cisco.com [171.71.177.237]) by sj-dkim-1.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id lA6ITw8e011977 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2007 10:29:58 -0800 Received: from [192.168.4.177] (sjc-fluffy-vpn1.cisco.com [10.25.236.82]) by sj-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with SMTP id lA6ITuek016910 for ; Tue, 6 Nov 2007 18:29:56 GMT In-Reply-To: References: Impp: xmpp:cullenfluffyjennings@jabber.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <43F9DD5A-5C22-406B-B9FD-85ABB34AF480@cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Cullen Jennings Subject: Small comment on draft-ietf-v6ops-cpe-simple-security Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 10:29:30 -0800 To: v6ops@ops.ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) DKIM-Signature: v=0.5; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=1228; t=1194373798; x=1195237798; c=relaxed/simple; s=sjdkim1004; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=fluffy@cisco.com; z=From:=20Cullen=20Jennings=20 |Subject:=20Small=20comment=20on=20draft-ietf-v6ops-cpe-simple-security |Sender:=20; bh=tmSF2IR5ltyNkh3BcEql9uuIFv/cYm2GTpuEBrUuJkU=; b=nbPpQVbu90xIH3ZhGgrkCjGV/PwOfjsMM7CHqIg7Rq14/JsvvbGW42jgqi7O9+eyJpVygJfT S2wuO66QWDpjmOviQJleNScIT2d4mfwy5seHIQP1CiZHsoR2vEvnicEoerc3nLrl9YAXy4YHhr BpEJ5uGhZ/tHLqNwXbgwrm500=; Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-1; header.From=fluffy@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/sjdkim1004 verified; ); Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: ffa9dfbbe7cc58b3fa6b8ae3e57b0aa3 I'm sure the idea of repeating recommendations in the "Summary of Recommendations" section will be sort of controversial at some point, however, I would really like to encourage you to add the summary as you have it in the draft now. I have had much better luck getting things like this adopted in products from folks like Linksys and Netgear when I could hand a product manager a page of requirements that they could cut and paste into their product requirements specifications. If this is summary of recommendation contains all the normative language you need, I think it really helps make it easier to get the vendors to adopt this. Unlike much of the equipment that implements IETF protocols, the types of devices you are describing here are often contracted out using an ODM model and being able to express requirements like this makes it easier to include them. I suspect we don't have a lot of product manager for the types of devices we are talking about participating in this WG but if this document makes their life easy, that would be good. I'm not sure what to say about multicast but I'm sure that advice would be useful. 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This draft is a work item of the IPv6 Operations Working Group of the IETF. Title : IPv6 Unicast Address Assignment Considerations Author(s) : G. Van de Velde, et al. Filename : draft-ietf-v6ops-addcon-07.txt Pages : 33 Date : 2007-11-07 One fundamental aspect of any IP communications infrastructure is its addressing plan. With its new address architecture and allocation policies, the introduction of IPv6 into a network means that network designers and operators need to reconsider their existing approaches to network addressing. Lack of guidelines on handling this aspect of network design could slow down the deployment and integration of IPv6. This document aims to provide the information and recommendations relevant to planning the addressing aspects of IPv6 deployments. The document also provides IPv6 addressing case studies for both an enterprise and an ISP network. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-v6ops-addcon-07.txt To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce to change your subscription settings. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-ietf-v6ops-addcon-07.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-v6ops-addcon-07.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. 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This new daft corrects this typo. s/81/71/ s/82/72/ G/ -----Original Message----- From: IETF I-D Submission Tool [mailto:idsubmission@ietf.org]=20 Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2007 6:37 PM To: gunter (mailer list) Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Chip Popoviciu (cpopovic); tjc@ecs.soton.ac.uk; Olaf.Bonness@t-systems.com; HahnC@t-systems.com Subject: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-v6ops-addcon-07=20 A new version of I-D, draft-ietf-v6ops-addcon-07.txt has been successfuly submitted by Gunter Van de Velde and posted to the IETF repository. Filename: draft-ietf-v6ops-addcon Revision: 07 Title: IPv6 Unicast Address Assignment Considerations Creation_date: 2007-11-05 WG ID: v6ops Number_of_pages: 33 Abstract: One fundamental aspect of any IP communications infrastructure is its addressing plan. With its new address architecture and allocation policies, the introduction of IPv6 into a network means that network designers and operators need to reconsider their existing approaches to network addressing. Lack of guidelines on handling this aspect of network design could slow down the deployment and integration of IPv6. This document aims to provide the information and recommendations relevant to planning the addressing aspects of IPv6 deployments. The document also provides IPv6 addressing case studies for both an enterprise and an ISP network. =20 The IETF Secretariat. 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    ------=_NextPart_000_8747_01C82148.5B84F060-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Wed Nov 07 21:07:27 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ipwnn-0007um-TD for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 07 Nov 2007 21:07:27 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ipwnh-0003i5-LV for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 07 Nov 2007 21:07:27 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IpwgV-000JAL-Af for v6ops-data@psg.com; Thu, 08 Nov 2007 01:59:55 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [209.85.146.179] (helo=wa-out-1112.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ipwfv-000J8U-NF for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 08 Nov 2007 01:59:39 +0000 Received: by wa-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id v27so11105wah for ; Wed, 07 Nov 2007 17:59:16 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:organization:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=zIKqQc2pR7JV6IKPEDLcg2UY7Bv3rX2f1iDR51ivEqA=; b=rYyGVQn7HPECZiVT2H6kkr29l+FsqOAtGYaAM4/g6P0K6YYI6U/u/3L1nf4IDaj6Joyj+hLEDKuHjjgASGb89Png/iTaKQUy7BDxGsbiAS73XLK2xTF3Uni32CT8emZdHCLDXtxIrmzVlkiXvjHBuhsNCpGiVm6lE4FdqfqxUFY= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:organization:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=RwZQzOdN0WLP2s/TwajOsOMRkq+xsW+bBdRW+ypBKELb1+QEKgPcueB/OU+TyWngLpkRoTMRQkFisg2p85MqJGrH+Ri/YZII5btnMnPoyatpowANHnd8WIip3UKIxmQsHXhp9mc4aoaAYFQii0YQd+hwO7sDxZ9Cb2g4bDc0XuE= Received: by 10.114.60.19 with SMTP id i19mr8257550waa.1194487156179; Wed, 07 Nov 2007 17:59:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?130.216.38.124? ( [130.216.38.124]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id k24sm67166waf.2007.11.07.17.59.14 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Wed, 07 Nov 2007 17:59:15 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <47326D6C.6000400@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2007 14:59:08 +1300 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Windows/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brian Dickson CC: David Miles , IPv6 Operations Subject: Re: Follow-up work on NAT-PT References: <5FCD348C-5927-4F18-A002-0E3BF21ED5F4@NLnetLabs.nl> <47110056.70400@piuha.net> <47251FBA.9030507@gmail.com> <4726453A.2030500@gmail.com> <472664BF.4020709@ca.afilias.info> In-Reply-To: <472664BF.4020709@ca.afilias.info> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: a2c12dacc0736f14d6b540e805505a86 On 2007-10-30 11:54, Brian Dickson wrote: > Brian E Carpenter wrote: >> The IAB request specifically asks for a solution for IPv6-only >> hosts. It's long been my view that the primary coexistence strategy >> must be dual-stack, but I'm trying to answer the IAB's question. >> >>> >>> Finally, from my reading the usefulness of SHANTI is only where the >>> IPv6-only host has an application that appreciates IPv4 parameters >>> (port and address) or the translation itself. Do we expect >>> application developers to widely cater for this scenario, or to make >>> the assumption that "if IPv4 matters we should use the IPv4 stack"? >> >> No, SHANTI will work out of the box for any application that runs >> through a traditional NAT or NAPT without problems *and* has been >> upgraded to AF_INET6 sockets. However, applications that require >> an ALG with traditional NA(P)T will need to be tweaked, I think. >> The question is whether that overhead is justified to get rid of >> the problems of NAT-PT? >> >> Brian > I've been giving thoughts to some of the issues along similar lines. > > Here's what I've been thinking of, in terms of a solution space: > > Protocol translation that uses IPv6 as a transport, but doesn't do > anything other than present IPv4 on an IPv6-only host. I'm not sure how this is different from Bump in the Stack (RFC 2767) or Bump in the API (RFC 3338), as you describe it above. Or are you closer to DSTM? http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-ngtrans-dstm-overview-00.txt Brian > > The way to describe it in shorthand would be: > PT-4-6-4 > > On the IPv6-only host, add an IPv4 "thing". (interface/driver/whatever). > > There's some bootstrap issues regarding bringing up the IPv4 interface - > let's defer those for now... > > When this IPv4 "thing" talks to another IPv4 host, it will be using IPv4 > source/dest and src/dest ports. > > Do IPv4-to-IPv6 protocol translation - but now, the extra "twist" - > embed the *port* in the IPv6 destination, *above* the IPv4 address. > This lets us set up "generic" ALGs, based on covering aggregates for the > "special" address space we use for the place where 6-back-to-4 happens. > And, we can then set up ALGs on a per-port basis, which are > more-specific addresses. > And even more fine-grained port+IPv4 ALGs can be set up, e.g. when there > is a need to do 4-6-4 for RFC 1918 space. > > Since the host sees IPv4 "natively", no DNS tricks are needed. > > There are even a few advanced tricks that can be accomplished, like > reverse-port-mapping to request inbound port(s) and possibly inbound > port+IPv4 address "reservation". > Combined with dynamic DNS, it may be possible to extend the usefulness > of a very small number of IPv4 addresses, to support a much larger of > "servers" who need reserved ports, although possibly only > intermittently. (Think SMTP for hosting, inbound with MX and relay.) > > The implementation of things like DHCP (for IPv4) use well-know IPv4 > "broadcast" address destination 255.255.255.255. But, having an IPv6 > host listen on that address, transmogrified by the mapping including > port, means a specific IPv6 address can act as a DHCP server (or relay). > > NAT stuff built to handle this has an added advantage - the IPv4 > client-side addresses can overlap, since the presumption is that all the > hosts already have IPv6 - and can communicate via IPv6. So there would > not be any need for support for "tromboned" traffic between pairs of > hosts behind this 4-6-4-plus-NAT. The colliding addresses are > disambituated in IPv4 by port (assigned by the NAT), and in the NAT > back-end by IPv6 address. > > There are details to work out, of course. But I think it could be an > interesting starting point, which by virtue of presenting an IPv4 > interface to the client, avoids most of the NAT-PT issues. > > Oh, yeah, one other good thing - there is no requirement that the ALGs > or NAT-PT exist on the same network, just that they be reachable via > IPv6 natively. So, a small network could point their "ALG default" at an > upstream, who then would handle all the NAT-PT stuff (presumably as > either a value-add, paid, or bundled service) for access to the V4 > Internet. > > Brian D > > From gubradppxb@whale.biglobe.ne.jp Wed Nov 07 21:13:00 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IpwtA-0004oy-Rm for v6ops-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 07 Nov 2007 21:13:00 -0500 Received: from [189.32.204.4] (helo=bd20cc04.virtua.com.br) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ipwt7-0003rQ-68 for v6ops-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 07 Nov 2007 21:13:00 -0500 Received: from pc ([194.131.51.189]:29422 "EHLO pc" smtp-auth: TLS-CIPHER: TLS-PEER-CN1: ) by bd20cc04.virtua.com.br with ESMTP id S22SVZSSAWUJEFVT (ORCPT ); Thu, 8 Nov 2007 00:13:31 -0200 Message-ID: <000e01c821ac$e108a1f0$04cc20bd@pc> From: "Santiago gubrad" To: v6ops-archive@megatron.ietf.org Subject: re: Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 00:12:57 -0200 Message-ID: <000e01c821ac$e108a1f0$04cc20bd@pc> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="koi8-r"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 X-Spam-Score: 4.9 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: bb8eae9af85e4fcfe76f325e38493bf4 The patients’ confidentiality is as important for Canadian Health&Care Mall a From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Nov 08 08:53:25 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iq7oz-0001qF-2B for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 08 Nov 2007 08:53:25 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iq7ov-0005ka-Mf for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 08 Nov 2007 08:53:25 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Iq7jA-000B9k-Ib for v6ops-data@psg.com; Thu, 08 Nov 2007 13:47:24 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [209.85.198.185] (helo=rv-out-0910.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Iq7ib-000B7N-5F for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 08 Nov 2007 13:47:08 +0000 Received: by rv-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id b22so164249rvf for ; Thu, 08 Nov 2007 05:46:46 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.141.18.14 with SMTP id v14mr10799rvi.1194490006317; Wed, 07 Nov 2007 18:46:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?130.216.38.124? ( [130.216.38.124]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id c19sm160543rvf.2007.11.07.18.46.44 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Wed, 07 Nov 2007 18:46:46 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <47327890.3080008@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2007 15:46:40 +1300 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Windows/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: IPv6 Operations Subject: [Fwd: I-D Action:draft-carpenter-shanti-01.txt] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: e5ba305d0e64821bf3d8bc5d3bb07228 I've fixed a lot of errors and inconsistencies in this version. I'd really like to know if the idea holds water. Active co-authors would be most welcome. Critical review by someone who's been tracking BEHAVE would be most welcome. Brian -------- Original Message -------- Subject: I-D Action:draft-carpenter-shanti-01.txt Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2007 21:30:02 -0500 From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Reply-To: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: i-d-announce@ietf.org A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. Title : Shimmed IPv4/IPv6 Address Network Translation Interface (SHANTI) Author(s) : B. Carpenter Filename : draft-carpenter-shanti-01.txt Pages : 16 Date : 2007-11-07 There is a pragmatic need for a packet-level translation mechanism between IPv4 and IPv6, for scenarios where no other mode of IPv4 to IPv6 interworking is possible. The mechanism defined here uses a shim in both the translator and the IPv6 host to mitigate the problems introduced by stateless translation. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-carpenter-shanti-01.txt From Harjeet928@arco-baleno.ch Thu Nov 08 11:44:33 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IqAUb-00022p-OR for v6ops-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 08 Nov 2007 11:44:33 -0500 Received: from host47-29-static.5-79-b.business.telecomitalia.it ([79.5.29.47]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IqAUb-0004qW-9G for v6ops-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 08 Nov 2007 11:44:33 -0500 Received: from oem-yict80b8yqy ([103.166.18.185]:9368 "EHLO oem-yict80b8yqy" smtp-auth: TLS-CIPHER: TLS-PEER-CN1: ) by host47-29-static.5-79-b.business.telecomitalia.it with ESMTP id S22VKPDQIPKJFDWI (ORCPT ); Thu, 8 Nov 2007 17:44:49 +0100 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 17:44:36 +0100 To: v6ops-archive@megatron.ietf.org From: "Harjeet Meek" Subject: m{{r{tyn Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: 3.4 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 7aefe408d50e9c7c47615841cb314bed http://mtvnrews.com/ I have been dating a man who I think is wonderful but when we have sex I can't feel his penis inside me. mrownjim mtcaneer mrowwed msoesjes From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Nov 08 16:13:10 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IqEgY-0001pw-Cy for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 08 Nov 2007 16:13:10 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IqEgS-0003pP-JO for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 08 Nov 2007 16:13:10 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IqEbT-000FBD-IH for v6ops-data@psg.com; Thu, 08 Nov 2007 21:07:55 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [64.233.162.239] (helo=nz-out-0506.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IqEbI-000FAP-Rx for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 08 Nov 2007 21:07:50 +0000 Received: by nz-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id s1so395562nze for ; Thu, 08 Nov 2007 13:07:43 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:organization:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=0sqXlzK7h5YXM3XUJpGjxOjQFILNlMAAEt/wbGQcM3k=; b=NEw9P3HJmOd/SlrF2sI4Xc1lWnGYk5M08uZKX6pezXwHZAM6kXF9OV8dUGXU07oZlbdl2UEsMLj+GZV5TbdpjezM2i42fdz5pr0WLAI0vfp4IkgHC9941RefPbi3FkBQoXkvjjGGk0F1hWxkq7GlWmTn0wa4/ICzaSpbNuHg3Os= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:organization:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=sSyPcT67gbicMTBQQK6qVk5UZ1NHHTxdMAvCmAE/7M2uDvm6lZq+lBp7iGvcVs2VGmAfwy20UY+EV63LhdOgVrejEcGOCbBisu5A7uLjdqGDPo9TfQ9oAVrmW3h+bvDkbIwOEh/1p5L+lLFKHHtmQHE1SoSQGzeZHU6GQmO0gHw= Received: by 10.114.26.1 with SMTP id 1mr312635waz.1194556062632; Thu, 08 Nov 2007 13:07:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?130.216.38.124? ( [130.216.38.124]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id n37sm1916683wag.2007.11.08.13.07.34 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Thu, 08 Nov 2007 13:07:42 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <47337A94.7010005@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 10:07:32 +1300 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Windows/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: =?UTF-8?B?UsOpbWkgRGVzcHLDqXM=?= CC: Brian Dickson , David Miles , IPv6 Operations Subject: Re: Follow-up work on NAT-PT - a new approach References: <5FCD348C-5927-4F18-A002-0E3BF21ED5F4@NLnetLabs.nl> <47110056.70400@piuha.net> <47251FBA.9030507@gmail.com> <4726453A.2030500@gmail.com> <472664BF.4020709@ca.afilias.info> <473353D5.4040206@wanadoo.fr> In-Reply-To: <473353D5.4040206@wanadoo.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 769a46790fb42fbb0b0cc700c82f7081 On 2007-11-09 07:22, R=C3=A9mi Despr=C3=A9s wrote: > Brian Dickson wrote : >> Brian E Carpenter wrote: >>> The IAB request specifically asks for a solution for IPv6-only >>> hosts... >> ... >> >> On the IPv6-only host, add an IPv4 "thing". (interface/driver/whatever= ). >> > If IPv6 hosts could be kept simple (i.e. unmodified for IPv6 to IPv4=20 > connectivity), that would be a better perspective for IPv6 deployment. I don't see that. IPv6 stacks are still in flux and being actively worked on. In any case, my analysis of RFC 4966 is that without adding state in the IPv6 host, most of the problems identified with NAT-PT cannot be mitigated. draft-carpenter-shanti-01 covers this in some detail. Brian >=20 > One approach for this would be that the DNS would automatically return = > IPv4 mapped addresses to IPv6 queries when they have no IPv6 address bu= t=20 > have at least one IPv4 address. > Then boxes on the client-to-server paths which car support NAT for IPv4= =20 > connections (typically customer edge routers) can do the protocol=20 > conversion. >=20 > The conversion would be a particular (simplified) NAT-PT (no=20 > fragmentation, and the same ALGs as deemed useful in IPv4 NATs ). >=20 > As a matter of fact I proposed something in that direction in 2004, but= =20 > just before discussion on the subject stopped, NAT-PT being allover=20 > deprecated. (ref.=20 > file:///Users/Pro/Documents/_%20%20%20%20%20PRO%20-%20ORG/IETF/RD%20aga= inst%20NAT-PT%20deprecation.html=20 > ) >=20 > R=C3=A9mi >=20 >=20 From esau05heung-do@cool.ms Thu Nov 08 17:00:52 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IqFQi-0003OS-MH for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 08 Nov 2007 17:00:52 -0500 Received: from [199.242.209.67] (helo=199.242.209.67) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IqFQh-0006oW-Py for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 08 Nov 2007 17:00:51 -0500 Received: from [199.242.209.67] by ejifkpc.cool.ms; Thu, 08 Nov 2007 22:00:52 +0000 Message-ID: <000501c82252$010962d6$10613a82@yynajfq> From: "leicester je" To: "Jeanine Meyer" Subject: You can be sure Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2007 20:13:30 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0002_01C82252.0105C77E" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.3790.2663 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.3790.2757 X-Spam-Score: 4.7 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 52e1467c2184c31006318542db5614d5 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0002_01C82252.0105C77E Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Perfectly crafted luxury timepieces, all at affordable prices. 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    http://webwhortuat.com/ ------=_NextPart_000_0002_01C82252.0105C77E-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Nov 08 17:05:48 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IqFVU-0002Kb-1a for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 08 Nov 2007 17:05:48 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IqFVR-0005By-JQ for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 08 Nov 2007 17:05:48 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IqFTH-000JC7-DS for v6ops-data@psg.com; Thu, 08 Nov 2007 22:03:31 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [205.158.62.78] (helo=smtp1.us4.outblaze.com) by psg.com with smtp (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IqFT6-000JBa-GH for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 08 Nov 2007 22:03:25 +0000 Received: (qmail 28726 invoked from network); 8 Nov 2007 22:03:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ?192.168.3.76?) (jcurran:mail.com?mail.com@69.255.34.88) by smtp1.us4.outblaze.com with SMTP; 8 Nov 2007 22:03:19 -0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <47337A94.7010005@gmail.com> References: <5FCD348C-5927-4F18-A002-0E3BF21ED5F4@NLnetLabs.nl> <47110056.70400@piuha.net> <47251FBA.9030507@gmail.com> <4726453A.2030500@gmail.com> <472664BF.4020709@ca.afilias.info> <473353D5.4040206@wanadoo.fr> <47337A94.7010005@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 17:03:06 -0500 To: Brian E Carpenter From: John Curran Subject: Re: Follow-up work on NAT-PT - a new approach Cc: IPv6 Operations Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 08170828343bcf1325e4a0fb4584481c At 10:07 AM +1300 11/9/07, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > In any case, my analysis of RFC 4966 is that without >adding state in the IPv6 host, most of the problems identified >with NAT-PT cannot be mitigated. draft-carpenter-shanti-01 >covers this in some detail. Brian - How does an ISP grow their network (using IPv6 to connect customers) without some way to provide the minimal level of backward compatibility to the existing IPv4-connected Internet which is provided by NAT-PT? /John From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Nov 08 17:28:34 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IqFrW-0003wz-Ly for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 08 Nov 2007 17:28:34 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IqFrT-0006ot-8J for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 08 Nov 2007 17:28:34 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IqFoy-000LD8-JX for v6ops-data@psg.com; Thu, 08 Nov 2007 22:25:56 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [209.85.198.190] (helo=rv-out-0910.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IqFok-000LC4-8k for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 08 Nov 2007 22:25:51 +0000 Received: by rv-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id b22so322138rvf for ; Thu, 08 Nov 2007 14:25:41 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:organization:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=gtchgeP9l8EunXA7FrxAJz7M4bWqwukJ11LP/Ydz93I=; b=Yw5XPGD9AlF74yOfdAo93AKTCG8VtCbnlCB0BTfFz6MVmdUlqWC0g/7w1tIW3gyiA2HzLQe9es+jvn4/DeERzHfZ+KbKW6ia6PQ2YpNpo3SgYalvH9V3XPNfYHEsbsSlRm7oeN77x+lj/fLmV9ZonCiftkrCkuOHZdIvKsbCF+0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:organization:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=Aj9aQMa2KzvmC67/0eS4FQc9lIYl5G5bZLBOdd4SWEhVS5M46scbQjsz2V+5tISH04dTatjQdh1AL6r3/7E8EgMpkKEU5GPV0wzPlTGK50U8pd+MeT7ynKN8KQiS8sG8KAMKWyGSwEa3X4QWXzU0Quwcx7h4DWfo37bxsImLbhI= Received: by 10.140.139.3 with SMTP id m3mr594929rvd.1194560741569; Thu, 08 Nov 2007 14:25:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?130.216.38.124? ( [130.216.38.124]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id g31sm2321470rvb.2007.11.08.14.25.40 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Thu, 08 Nov 2007 14:25:41 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <47338CE2.7040201@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 11:25:38 +1300 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Windows/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Curran CC: IPv6 Operations Subject: Re: Follow-up work on NAT-PT - a new approach References: <5FCD348C-5927-4F18-A002-0E3BF21ED5F4@NLnetLabs.nl> <47110056.70400@piuha.net> <47251FBA.9030507@gmail.com> <4726453A.2030500@gmail.com> <472664BF.4020709@ca.afilias.info> <473353D5.4040206@wanadoo.fr> <47337A94.7010005@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 97adf591118a232206bdb5a27b217034 On 2007-11-09 11:03, John Curran wrote: > At 10:07 AM +1300 11/9/07, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >> In any case, my analysis of RFC 4966 is that without >> adding state in the IPv6 host, most of the problems identified >> with NAT-PT cannot be mitigated. draft-carpenter-shanti-01 >> covers this in some detail. > > Brian - > > How does an ISP grow their network (using IPv6 to connect > customers) without some way to provide the minimal level > of backward compatibility to the existing IPv4-connected > Internet which is provided by NAT-PT? I must confess that I've looked at the question much more from the viewpoint of a campus or enterprise network, on the assumption that ISPs only provide some combination of IPv4 and IPv6 transport. And there the answer for me has always been: upgrade servers to dual stack, and install dual-stack application proxies to fill any gaps. I would envisage a similar approach for an ISP supporting SOHO subscribers - that really isn't much different from a campus network. The ISP will need dual-stack mail servers, for example. Anyone providing services to the public will need a dual stack, for that matter, if they want to be accessible. However, for the residual cases, it's precisely because of the issues with NAT-PT that I've just started working on SHANTI. Whether that's of value is for the community to say. Brian From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Nov 08 18:18:26 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IqGdm-0000Hp-Rs for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 08 Nov 2007 18:18:26 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IqGdk-0000Gb-0K for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 08 Nov 2007 18:18:26 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IqGax-000Otl-Bh for v6ops-data@psg.com; Thu, 08 Nov 2007 23:15:31 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-201.9 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE, USER_IN_ALL_SPAM_TO,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [156.154.16.138] (helo=ns1.neustar.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IqGaX-000Oq8-FT for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 08 Nov 2007 23:15:11 +0000 Received: from stiedprstage1.ietf.org (stiedprstage1.va.neustar.com [10.31.47.10]) by ns1.neustar.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F203726E6B; Thu, 8 Nov 2007 23:15:02 +0000 (GMT) Received: from ietf by stiedprstage1.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IqGaU-0000m9-QT; Thu, 08 Nov 2007 18:15:02 -0500 Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" Mime-Version: 1.0 To: i-d-announce@ietf.org Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-v6ops-addr-select-req-04.txt Message-Id: Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2007 18:15:02 -0500 Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 10ba05e7e8a9aa6adb025f426bef3a30 --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the IPv6 Operations Working Group of the IETF. Title : Requirements for address selection mechanisms Author(s) : A. Matsumoto, et al. Filename : draft-ietf-v6ops-addr-select-req-04.txt Pages : 9 Date : 2007-11-8 In a multi-prefix environment, nodes could have multiple addresses on one network interface. RFC 3484 defines a source and destination address-selection algorithm, which is commonly deployed in current popular OSs. However, nodes could encounter some difficulties in network communication when they use default address selection rules defined in RFC 3484. Some mechanisms for solving address-selection problems are proposed including the RFC 3484 policy table distribution and ICMP error-based mechanisms. This document describes requirements for these address-selection mechanisms. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-v6ops-addr-select-req-04.txt To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce to change your subscription settings. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-ietf-v6ops-addr-select-req-04.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-v6ops-addr-select-req-04.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; Boundary="OtherAccess" --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; access-type="mail-server"; server="mailserv@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2007-11-8172626.I-D@ietf.org> ENCODING mime FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-v6ops-addr-select-req-04.txt --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-v6ops-addr-select-req-04.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2007-11-8172626.I-D@ietf.org> --OtherAccess-- --NextPart-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Nov 08 18:30:19 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IqGpH-0002ci-A5 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 08 Nov 2007 18:30:19 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IqGpD-0000YF-TS for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 08 Nov 2007 18:30:19 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IqGnB-000PkY-6Z for v6ops-data@psg.com; Thu, 08 Nov 2007 23:28:09 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [205.158.62.78] (helo=smtp1.us4.outblaze.com) by psg.com with smtp (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IqGn0-000PjU-II for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 08 Nov 2007 23:28:03 +0000 Received: (qmail 22915 invoked from network); 8 Nov 2007 23:27:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ?192.168.3.76?) (jcurran:mail.com?mail.com@69.255.34.88) by smtp1.us4.outblaze.com with SMTP; 8 Nov 2007 23:27:55 -0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <47338CE2.7040201@gmail.com> References: <5FCD348C-5927-4F18-A002-0E3BF21ED5F4@NLnetLabs.nl> <47110056.70400@piuha.net> <47251FBA.9030507@gmail.com> <4726453A.2030500@gmail.com> <472664BF.4020709@ca.afilias.info> <473353D5.4040206@wanadoo.fr> <47337A94.7010005@gmail.com> <47338CE2.7040201@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 18:27:51 -0500 To: Brian E Carpenter From: John Curran Subject: Re: Follow-up work on NAT-PT - a new approach Cc: IPv6 Operations Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 769a46790fb42fbb0b0cc700c82f7081 At 11:25 AM +1300 11/9/07, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >I would envisage a similar approach for an ISP supporting >SOHO subscribers - that really isn't much different from >a campus network. The ISP will need dual-stack mail servers, >for example. Anyone providing services to the public will need >a dual stack, for that matter, if they want to be accessible. At some point, ISP's will: 1) Be unable to readily obtain additional IPv4 address space, 2) Want to keep growing, and 3) Want a method for connecting up customers via IPv6-only which provides some semblance of full Internet connectivity (including backward reachability to IPv4 destinations). From the ISP point of view, some of the key requirements are: - Has to require a minimal amount of special per-site (or per-site-host) configuration in order to provide the connectivity to Internet IPv4-only sites. - Allow for sharing of some IPv4 space that the ISP has set aside for such purposes. - Allow implementation of the same "site" policies (such as port-based firewall filters) on the IPv4 backward-compatible connectivity that customers use today to provide nominal security. Contrary to what a lot of folks think, I don't think that the backwards-compatibility IPv4 connectivity really needs to be general purpose, or application friendly, or support a truly end2end model. While NAT-PR is indeed imperfect (as documented in RFC4966), it still provides minimal backwards connectivity that is going to be desperately needed for many providers. >However, for the residual cases, it's precisely because >of the issues with NAT-PT that I've just started working >on SHANTI. Whether that's of value is for the community >to say. If there's a way to improve the resulting connectivity without create a raft of customer configuration and support issues, it's probably of value to the community. /John From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Nov 08 19:50:17 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IqI4f-0002NH-HS for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 08 Nov 2007 19:50:17 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IqI4d-0002SK-6h for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 08 Nov 2007 19:50:17 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IqHzE-0005Gq-As for v6ops-data@psg.com; Fri, 09 Nov 2007 00:44:40 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [207.219.45.62] (helo=mail.libertyrms.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IqHye-0005FJ-Fl for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 09 Nov 2007 00:44:24 +0000 Received: from vgateway.int.libertyrms.com ([10.1.3.254] helo=look.libertyrms.com) by mail.libertyrms.com with esmtp (Exim 4.22) id 1IqHyc-00046J-Ca; Thu, 08 Nov 2007 19:44:02 -0500 Received: from 59.188.37.152 (SquirrelMail authenticated user briand) by look.libertyrms.com with HTTP; Thu, 8 Nov 2007 19:44:02 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <50242.59.188.37.152.1194569042.squirrel@look.libertyrms.com> In-Reply-To: <47326D6C.6000400@gmail.com> References: <5FCD348C-5927-4F18-A002-0E3BF21ED5F4@NLnetLabs.nl> <47110056.70400@piuha.net> <47251FBA.9030507@gmail.com> <4726453A.2030500@gmail.com> <472664BF.4020709@ca.afilias.info> <47326D6C.6000400@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 19:44:02 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Follow-up work on NAT-PT From: briand@ca.afilias.info To: "Brian E Carpenter" Cc: "Brian Dickson" , "David Miles" , "IPv6 Operations" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.9a MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Importance: Normal X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: briand@ca.afilias.info X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 8fbbaa16f9fd29df280814cb95ae2290 > On 2007-10-30 11:54, Brian Dickson wrote: >> Brian E Carpenter wrote: >>> The IAB request specifically asks for a solution for IPv6-only >>> hosts. It's long been my view that the primary coexistence strategy >>> must be dual-stack, but I'm trying to answer the IAB's question. >>> >>>> >>>> Finally, from my reading the usefulness of SHANTI is only where the >>>> IPv6-only host has an application that appreciates IPv4 parameters >>>> (port and address) or the translation itself. Do we expect >>>> application developers to widely cater for this scenario, or to make >>>> the assumption that "if IPv4 matters we should use the IPv4 stack"? >>> >>> No, SHANTI will work out of the box for any application that runs >>> through a traditional NAT or NAPT without problems *and* has been >>> upgraded to AF_INET6 sockets. However, applications that require >>> an ALG with traditional NA(P)T will need to be tweaked, I think. >>> The question is whether that overhead is justified to get rid of >>> the problems of NAT-PT? >>> >>> Brian >> I've been giving thoughts to some of the issues along similar lines. >> >> Here's what I've been thinking of, in terms of a solution space: >> >> Protocol translation that uses IPv6 as a transport, but doesn't do >> anything other than present IPv4 on an IPv6-only host. > > I'm not sure how this is different from Bump in the Stack (RFC 2767) > or Bump in the API (RFC 3338), as you describe it above. > Or are you closer to DSTM? > http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-ngtrans-dstm-overview-00.txt It *does* bear some superficial resemblence to elements of all 3, but is very different from any of them. Both BIS and BIA, presume native IPv4 on the dual-stack host. What they both offer, is the ability to offer a fake IPv4 path between *two* IPv6 hosts. What I'm talking about is a means for an IPv6-only host to access an IPv4 only host via one or more ALGs/NATs, by presenting an IPv4 interface to the IPv6-only host. This concept, 4-6-4, is a mechanism to provide what appears to the host itself, as if it has native IPv4 connectivity (i.e. dual stack), and doing something different from straight IPv4-in-IPv6 tunneling. Instead of tunneling, or vanilla SIIT, it adds the twist which allows identification of the specific ALG via IPv6 routing. By directing traffic to the ALG on the native IPv6 network, the scaling of both the individual ALGs, and the management of and placement of the ALGs, scales much better. ALGs can be added on a per-port basis, can be multiplex by IPv6-only load-balancers, or supported by any number of networking tricks, devices, or topological niceties, all of which can be IPv6-only, and (aside from the specific IPv6 prefixes used), ignorant of the fact that any of this traffic is 4-6-4 traffic. The one other significant difference is the concept of maintaining any NAT state in the mapped V6 addresses, meaning v4 addresses can be used simultaneously by multiple 4-6-4 client hosts, thus allowing much more scalable deployment on the 1918 side of the NAT. In fact, for maximum scalability, hosts in the 4-6-4 universe could all be given identical IPv4 1918 addresses, and this would still work. Imagine the ease of managing clients when they could all be configured with 192.168.1.2 as their IPv4 address. :-) Brian D >> >> The way to describe it in shorthand would be: >> PT-4-6-4 >> >> On the IPv6-only host, add an IPv4 "thing". (interface/driver/whatever). >> >> There's some bootstrap issues regarding bringing up the IPv4 interface - >> let's defer those for now... >> >> When this IPv4 "thing" talks to another IPv4 host, it will be using IPv4 >> source/dest and src/dest ports. >> >> Do IPv4-to-IPv6 protocol translation - but now, the extra "twist" - >> embed the *port* in the IPv6 destination, *above* the IPv4 address. >> This lets us set up "generic" ALGs, based on covering aggregates for the >> "special" address space we use for the place where 6-back-to-4 happens. >> And, we can then set up ALGs on a per-port basis, which are >> more-specific addresses. >> And even more fine-grained port+IPv4 ALGs can be set up, e.g. when there >> is a need to do 4-6-4 for RFC 1918 space. >> >> Since the host sees IPv4 "natively", no DNS tricks are needed. >> >> There are even a few advanced tricks that can be accomplished, like >> reverse-port-mapping to request inbound port(s) and possibly inbound >> port+IPv4 address "reservation". >> Combined with dynamic DNS, it may be possible to extend the usefulness >> of a very small number of IPv4 addresses, to support a much larger of >> "servers" who need reserved ports, although possibly only >> intermittently. (Think SMTP for hosting, inbound with MX and relay.) >> >> The implementation of things like DHCP (for IPv4) use well-know IPv4 >> "broadcast" address destination 255.255.255.255. But, having an IPv6 >> host listen on that address, transmogrified by the mapping including >> port, means a specific IPv6 address can act as a DHCP server (or relay). >> >> NAT stuff built to handle this has an added advantage - the IPv4 >> client-side addresses can overlap, since the presumption is that all the >> hosts already have IPv6 - and can communicate via IPv6. So there would >> not be any need for support for "tromboned" traffic between pairs of >> hosts behind this 4-6-4-plus-NAT. The colliding addresses are >> disambituated in IPv4 by port (assigned by the NAT), and in the NAT >> back-end by IPv6 address. >> >> There are details to work out, of course. But I think it could be an >> interesting starting point, which by virtue of presenting an IPv4 >> interface to the client, avoids most of the NAT-PT issues. >> >> Oh, yeah, one other good thing - there is no requirement that the ALGs >> or NAT-PT exist on the same network, just that they be reachable via >> IPv6 natively. So, a small network could point their "ALG default" at an >> upstream, who then would handle all the NAT-PT stuff (presumably as >> either a value-add, paid, or bundled service) for access to the V4 >> Internet. >> >> Brian D >> >> > From JosielobarHaskins@peopleenespanol.com Fri Nov 09 00:37:47 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IqMYs-00060I-U2; Fri, 09 Nov 2007 00:37:46 -0500 Received: from [220.118.6.133] (helo=kimhs) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IqMYs-00059t-5S; Fri, 09 Nov 2007 00:37:46 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by host70821213.peopleenespanol.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with SMTP id UAfzlE7c64.945526.err.LvX.5697769343291 for ; Fri, 9 Nov 2007 14:37:16 -0900 Message-ID: <47ea601c82292$a5c61190$8601a8c0@kimhs> From: "Karin Ziegler" To: Subject: Approval process Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 14:37:16 -0900 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_47EA2_01C82292.A5C61190" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d16ce744298aacf98517bc7c108bd198 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_47EA2_01C82292.A5C61190 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Even if you have no erection problems Cialis would help you to make = better sex more often and to bring unimaginable plesure to her. 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Active co-authors > would be most welcome. Critical review by someone who's been > tracking BEHAVE would be most welcome. It looks like "reverse RSIP" for IPv6-transition. Brilliant! I'm also not entirely convinced that carrying network layer IPsec ESP =20= through SHANTI to IPv4 endpoints would be all that difficult. I =20 start by doing the fairly obvious thing in existing IKE ALGs in use =20 today for IPsec VPN transparency where you track IKE cookies and =20 match SPI to local host addresses by serializing their IKE =20 transactions. You'd just have to look for IPv6 addresses as well as =20 IPv4 addresses in the SHANTI translator. You'd still have all the =20 same old problems with IPv4/NAT and IPsec ESP translation with an IKE =20= ALG, but those are=97 again=97 limitations of communicating over IPv4 =20= with a single IP address mapped to multiple private addresses. 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    ------=_NextPart_000_8EBE_01C823D0.AD38A700-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Nov 09 23:45:59 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IqiEJ-0007Ed-Ot for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 09 Nov 2007 23:45:59 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IqiEG-00036W-Ar for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 09 Nov 2007 23:45:59 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Iqi89-0005LC-0Y for v6ops-data@psg.com; Sat, 10 Nov 2007 04:39:37 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [205.158.62.78] (helo=smtp1.us4.outblaze.com) by psg.com with smtp (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Iqi7y-0005KS-91 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Sat, 10 Nov 2007 04:39:31 +0000 Received: (qmail 8441 invoked from network); 10 Nov 2007 04:39:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ?192.168.3.76?) (jcurran:mail.com?mail.com@69.255.34.88) by smtp1.us4.outblaze.com with SMTP; 10 Nov 2007 04:39:25 -0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <473532F8.60206@gmail.com> References: <5FCD348C-5927-4F18-A002-0E3BF21ED5F4@NLnetLabs.nl> <47110056.70400@piuha.net> <47251FBA.9030507@gmail.com> <4726453A.2030500@gmail.com> <472664BF.4020709@ca.afilias.info> <473353D5.4040206@wanadoo.fr> <47337A94.7010005@gmail.com> <47338CE2.7040201@gmail.com> <473532F8.60206@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 23:39:22 -0500 To: Brian E Carpenter From: John Curran Subject: Re: Follow-up work on NAT-PT - a new approach Cc: IPv6 Operations Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 69a74e02bbee44ab4f8eafdbcedd94a1 At 5:26 PM +1300 11/10/07, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >> >>Contrary to what a lot of folks think, I don't think that the >>backwards-compatibility IPv4 connectivity really needs to >>be general purpose, or application friendly, or support a >>truly end2end model. > >But if it doesn't support *unknown* or even *future* applications, >it is going to cause help desk calls (probably insoluble help >desk calls, too). I realise that NAT does that today, but surely >we'd like to do better? We'd like to do better, and should if we can... In any case, there's still going to be a lot of ISP's saying to customers: "Look, that site is only connected to the legacy Internet; once they upgrade to the new stuff, you'll work fine. Why don't you ask them why they're sooo far behind?" >>If there's a way to improve the resulting connectivity >>without create a raft of customer configuration and >>support issues, it's probably of value to the community. > >As far as I can see the configuration issues aren't major. >All user systems served by the same SHANTI translator will >need to know its IPv6 and IPv4 address by configuration - >Yet Another DHCP Option could provide that. That would definitely help... please consider adding consideration of such to your draft. Thanks! /John From LuciacopperasRudolph@closersounds.com Sat Nov 10 09:33:26 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IqrOo-0005hW-5F; Sat, 10 Nov 2007 09:33:26 -0500 Received: from [189.153.48.159] (helo=ed.gateway.2wire.net) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IqrOl-000216-OT; Sat, 10 Nov 2007 09:33:26 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by host16275875.closersounds.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with SMTP id H6T8VgvU12.107572.4bd.m2s.6937633833005 for ; Sat, 10 Nov 2007 08:33:15 +0600 Message-ID: From: "Winifred Marin" To: Cc: Subject: Your life Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 08:33:15 +0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_EAA94_01C823A6.B9928630" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d16ce744298aacf98517bc7c108bd198 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_EAA94_01C823A6.B9928630 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Even if you have no erection problems Cialis would help you to make = better sex more often and to bring unimaginable plesure to her. 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    ------=_NextPart_000_EAA94_01C823A6.B9928630-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Sat Nov 10 09:37:36 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IqrSq-0001f1-Ra for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 10 Nov 2007 09:37:36 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IqrSn-0001Xj-Ki for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 10 Nov 2007 09:37:36 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IqrN0-000IMw-0I for v6ops-data@psg.com; Sat, 10 Nov 2007 14:31:34 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.3 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [83.149.65.1] (helo=sequoia.muada.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IqrMo-000ILs-Ln for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Sat, 10 Nov 2007 14:31:28 +0000 Received: from nirrti.it.uc3m.es (nirrti.it.uc3m.es [163.117.139.231]) (authenticated bits=0) by sequoia.muada.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id lAAEV98B079980 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Sat, 10 Nov 2007 15:31:14 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from iljitsch@muada.com) Cc: David Miles , IPv6 Operations Message-Id: From: Iljitsch van Beijnum To: Brian E Carpenter In-Reply-To: <4726453A.2030500@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v912) Subject: Re: Follow-up work on NAT-PT Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 13:28:35 +0100 References: <5FCD348C-5927-4F18-A002-0E3BF21ED5F4@NLnetLabs.nl> <47110056.70400@piuha.net> <47251FBA.9030507@gmail.com> <4726453A.2030500@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.912) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 69a74e02bbee44ab4f8eafdbcedd94a1 On 29 okt 2007, at 21:40, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >> I'm interested to hear your thoughts on IPv6-only hosts (as opposed >> to dual-stack hosts) during the IPv4-to-IPv6 transition period. The >> work I've been doing up till now has made a fundamental assumption >> that we would see only v4-only and dual-stack hosts, assuming that >> only post IPv4 shutdown would we see an emergence of IPv6-only >> devices. > The IAB request specifically asks for a solution for IPv6-only > hosts. It's long been my view that the primary coexistence strategy > must be dual-stack, but I'm trying to answer the IAB's question. The problem with dual stack is that it doesn't solve anything: you still need just as much IPv4 as when running IPv4-only. Dual stack is important for server so that both IPv4-only and IPv6-only clients can use the service, but we need to move towards a situation where it's possible for a regular end-user PC to run IPv6-only without much loss of functionality (if any). >> Finally, from my reading the usefulness of SHANTI is only where the >> IPv6-only host has an application that appreciates IPv4 parameters >> (port and address) or the translation itself. Do we expect >> application developers to widely cater for this scenario, or to >> make the assumption that "if IPv4 matters we should use the IPv4 >> stack"? > No, SHANTI will work out of the box for any application that runs > through a traditional NAT or NAPT without problems *and* has been > upgraded to AF_INET6 sockets. Ugh! Mixing IPv6 and NAT is something that I'd really like to avoid. On monday I'll wrestle with xml2rfc once again, and if successful, I'll have a draft that suggests a slightly different way of doing this. (If anyone wants to mail me something I can use as an up-to-date xml2rfc template that would be much appreciated.) From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Sat Nov 10 10:13:58 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iqs22-0007eY-CZ for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 10 Nov 2007 10:13:58 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iqs1y-0002gs-CZ for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 10 Nov 2007 10:13:58 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Iqrzo-000LKs-T6 for v6ops-data@psg.com; Sat, 10 Nov 2007 15:11:40 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [209.85.198.190] (helo=rv-out-0910.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IqrzZ-000LJU-4k for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Sat, 10 Nov 2007 15:11:35 +0000 Received: by rv-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id b22so834361rvf for ; Sat, 10 Nov 2007 07:11:18 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.141.15.19 with SMTP id s19mr1352099rvi.1194668797831; Fri, 09 Nov 2007 20:26:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?10.1.1.7? ( [222.153.7.118]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id b24sm5586817rvf.2007.11.09.20.26.35 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Fri, 09 Nov 2007 20:26:37 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <473532F8.60206@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 17:26:32 +1300 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Windows/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Curran CC: IPv6 Operations Subject: Re: Follow-up work on NAT-PT - a new approach References: <5FCD348C-5927-4F18-A002-0E3BF21ED5F4@NLnetLabs.nl> <47110056.70400@piuha.net> <47251FBA.9030507@gmail.com> <4726453A.2030500@gmail.com> <472664BF.4020709@ca.afilias.info> <473353D5.4040206@wanadoo.fr> <47337A94.7010005@gmail.com> <47338CE2.7040201@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 10ba05e7e8a9aa6adb025f426bef3a30 John, On 2007-11-09 12:27, John Curran wrote: > At 11:25 AM +1300 11/9/07, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >> I would envisage a similar approach for an ISP supporting >> SOHO subscribers - that really isn't much different from >> a campus network. The ISP will need dual-stack mail servers, >> for example. Anyone providing services to the public will need >> a dual stack, for that matter, if they want to be accessible. > > At some point, ISP's will: 1) Be unable to readily obtain additional > IPv4 address space, 2) Want to keep growing, and 3) Want a > method for connecting up customers via IPv6-only which provides > some semblance of full Internet connectivity (including backward > reachability to IPv4 destinations). Clearly! > >>From the ISP point of view, some of the key requirements are: > > - Has to require a minimal amount of special per-site > (or per-site-host) configuration in order to provide > the connectivity to Internet IPv4-only sites. Sure. Assuming the ISP is running dual-stack routing, I believe they'll need to configure things like mail and web servers as dual-stack, and IM servers if they're offering that, but it's hard for me to imagine that a local ISP will ever be able to solve the problem of an IPv6-only subscriber accessing an IPv4-only Bloop server on another continent, for arbitrary values of Bloop, unless there is some help from the IPv6 host stack as well as a magic translator box. (And this has nothing to do with IPv6 design details - once you're sending packets that the IPv4-only server wasn't designed to receive, you automatically have this problem.) I think we've spent too long hoping that the world can be either pure IPv6-only or pure dual stack - to solve this problem we need the IPv6-only stack to be a little impure. > - Allow for sharing of some IPv4 space that the ISP > has set aside for such purposes. Yes, which is why SHANTI includes NAPT-like port mapping. > > - Allow implementation of the same "site" policies > (such as port-based firewall filters) on the IPv4 > backward-compatible connectivity that customers > use today to provide nominal security. I can't see why that would be an issue. Ports work pretty much the same in v4 and v6, and as noted, at least in my proposal ports are handled exactly as in NAPT. > > Contrary to what a lot of folks think, I don't think that the > backwards-compatibility IPv4 connectivity really needs to > be general purpose, or application friendly, or support a > truly end2end model. But if it doesn't support *unknown* or even *future* applications, it is going to cause help desk calls (probably insoluble help desk calls, too). I realise that NAT does that today, but surely we'd like to do better? > While NAT-PR is indeed imperfect > (as documented in RFC4966), it still provides minimal > backwards connectivity that is going to be desperately > needed for many providers. > >> However, for the residual cases, it's precisely because >> of the issues with NAT-PT that I've just started working >> on SHANTI. Whether that's of value is for the community >> to say. > > If there's a way to improve the resulting connectivity > without create a raft of customer configuration and > support issues, it's probably of value to the community. As far as I can see the configuration issues aren't major. All user systems served by the same SHANTI translator will need to know its IPv6 and IPv4 address by configuration - Yet Another DHCP Option could provide that. The translator itself would be exactly where you'd put a NAT and firewall today, and would be configured just like a NAPT. No free lunch, of course. Brian From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Sat Nov 10 11:08:05 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IqssP-0007CT-6G for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 10 Nov 2007 11:08:05 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IqssM-0004ZY-8A for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 10 Nov 2007 11:08:05 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IqspI-000PSg-Mm for v6ops-data@psg.com; Sat, 10 Nov 2007 16:04:52 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [209.85.198.190] (helo=rv-out-0910.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Iqsp7-000PRK-Vd for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Sat, 10 Nov 2007 16:04:47 +0000 Received: by rv-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id b22so844643rvf for ; Sat, 10 Nov 2007 08:04:31 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.141.53.1 with SMTP id f1mr1350676rvk.1194667111255; Fri, 09 Nov 2007 19:58:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?10.1.1.7? ( [222.153.7.118]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 3sm5513727rvi.2007.11.09.19.58.28 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Fri, 09 Nov 2007 19:58:30 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <47352C61.1070202@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 16:58:25 +1300 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Windows/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: =?UTF-8?B?UsOpbWkgRGVzcHLDqXM=?= CC: Brian Dickson , David Miles , IPv6 Operations Subject: Re: Follow-up work on NAT-PT - a new approach References: <5FCD348C-5927-4F18-A002-0E3BF21ED5F4@NLnetLabs.nl> <47110056.70400@piuha.net> <47251FBA.9030507@gmail.com> <4726453A.2030500@gmail.com> <472664BF.4020709@ca.afilias.info> <473353D5.4040206@wanadoo.fr> <47337A94.7010005@gmail.com> <4734AF41.6010403@wanadoo.fr> In-Reply-To: <4734AF41.6010403@wanadoo.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 92df29fa99cf13e554b84c8374345c17 On 2007-11-10 08:04, R=C3=A9mi Despr=C3=A9s wrote: > Brian E Carpenter wrote: >> On 2007-11-09 07:22, R=C3=A9mi Despr=C3=A9s wrote: >>> Brian Dickson wrote : >>>> Brian E Carpenter wrote: >>>>> The IAB request specifically asks for a solution for IPv6-only >>>>> hosts... >>> If IPv6 hosts could be kept simple (i.e. unmodified for IPv6 to IPv4 = >>> connectivity), that would be a better perspective for IPv6 deployment= =2E >> >> I don't see that.=20 > Yet, if it is possible to propose operational solutions without=20 > unnecessary additional layers of complexity, the industry and users=20 > should benefit. >> my analysis of RFC 4966 is that without >> adding state in the IPv6 host, most of the problems identified >> with NAT-PT cannot be mitigated. > This is the important TECHNICAL point. > A further analysis shows that : > 1. Problems identified in RFC 4966 fall in fact into 3 categories. > (a) Related to an Pv6-IPv4 DNS-ALG, if present > (b) Related to fragmentation, if applicable > (c) Identical to IPv4 NATrelated limitations > 2. All can be eliminated as follows: > - With my proposal below (as I see it, a straightforward extension of=20 > DNS to make IPv6 to IPv4 connections practical), problems (a) can=20 > disappear. See below, but basically that is my comclusion for the SHANTI scenario. > - Limiting IPv6 to IPv4 connections to paths where MTUs are at least=20 > 1500 (that of Ethernet) would be acceptable in the real world. Problems= =20 > (b) can then disappear. This is probably realistic but it still means the IPv6 source needs to kn= ow that limitation - SHANTI provides such knowledge to the IPv6 stack. I can add that in the next version. > - Applications of IPv6 to IPv4 connections can, and for the sake of=20 > simplicity should be limited to that which are available to IPv4 hosts = > behind NATs. Thus, problems (c) would disappear. That's essentially the "don't behave worse than IPv4 NAPT" principle, which I believe is mathematically inevitable in any case. >=20 >>> >>> One approach for this would be that the DNS would automatically=20 >>> return IPv4 mapped addresses to IPv6 queries when they have no IPv6=20 >>> address but have at least one IPv4 address. SHANTI recommends doing the equivalent of this in the resolver. Then dual-stack hosts will still see A records, and can be mixed on the same network with SHANTI hosts. >>> Then boxes on the client-to-server paths which car support NAT for=20 >>> IPv4 connections (typically customer edge routers) can do the=20 >>> protocol conversion. Yes, but they still have the ALG problem, and you have to be sure the packets actually flow that way. SHANTI guarantees the packets are routed to the translator, and pushes the ALG problem back where it belong= s. Brian From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Sat Nov 10 11:13:55 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iqsy3-0002sB-FR for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 10 Nov 2007 11:13:55 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iqsxz-0004r4-7c for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 10 Nov 2007 11:13:55 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Iqswq-00008H-RW for v6ops-data@psg.com; Sat, 10 Nov 2007 16:12:40 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [131.107.115.215] (helo=smtp.microsoft.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Iqswg-00007O-5q for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Sat, 10 Nov 2007 16:12:35 +0000 Received: from TK5-EXHUB-C101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.70.76) by TK5-EXGWY-E802.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.168) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.222.3; Sat, 10 Nov 2007 08:12:15 -0800 Received: from tk5-exmlt-w601.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com (157.54.70.16) by TK5-EXHUB-C101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.70.76) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 8.1.222.3; Sat, 10 Nov 2007 08:12:29 -0800 Received: from NA-EXMSG-W602.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.198]) by tk5-exmlt-w601.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com ([fe80::200:5efe:157.54.70.16%15]) with mapi; Sat, 10 Nov 2007 08:12:29 -0800 From: Christian Huitema To: Iljitsch van Beijnum , Brian E Carpenter CC: David Miles , IPv6 Operations Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 08:12:27 -0800 Subject: RE: Follow-up work on NAT-PT Thread-Topic: Follow-up work on NAT-PT Thread-Index: AcgjqL1Ro+XtwFpJRvSQlylbxmoAjAACRMIg Message-ID: References: <5FCD348C-5927-4F18-A002-0E3BF21ED5F4@NLnetLabs.nl> <47110056.70400@piuha.net> <47251FBA.9030507@gmail.com> <4726453A.2030500@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 52e1467c2184c31006318542db5614d5 I don't think that we need to optimize for IPv6 only hosts. In practice, we= can expect that IPv6 capable hosts will either be dual stack. Device desig= ners will want to accommodate situations where their device connects to eit= her an IPv6 network, or an IPv4 network. Implementing "dual stack" is not m= uch harder than implementing "IPv6 only", so this is pretty much a no-brain= er. We need to optimize for reliability and operation support. There, we have t= o reconcile the tension between two goals: networks are simpler and easier = to operate if they support one protocol instead of two; and, networks are s= impler if they do not rely on complex and error prone gateways. Is it really more efficient for an ISP to operate an IPv6 only network? If = it is, then IPv4 services will have to be provided through some kind of ove= rlay. On the provider side, the overlay will have connect to some IPv4 "gat= eways" that give access to the global IPv4 service. On the client side, the= overlay will extend either all the way to the client itself, or terminate = at the "access router". If we just want to reuse old technology, the overlay can be built with simp= le tunnels. Access routers routinely support protocols like PPPoA or PPPoE.= PPP over IPv6 (PPPo6?) would not be much of a stretch. It would also not l= ook to strange on the ISP side, since after all ISP are quite used to suppo= rt PPP servers. If we don't like the hub and spoke nature of PPP, we can of course be creat= ive and build the overlay with some form of automatic tunneling. But I am n= ot sure that the automatic tunneling will actually reduce operation costs, = or increase reliability. -- Christian Huitema From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Sat Nov 10 13:15:21 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IqurZ-0003b8-FQ for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 10 Nov 2007 13:15:21 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IqurX-0000Jt-9U for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 10 Nov 2007 13:15:21 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Iquly-00092G-Hb for v6ops-data@psg.com; Sat, 10 Nov 2007 18:09:34 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.1 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [213.172.48.142] (helo=consulintel.es) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IqulW-00090Q-GU for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Sat, 10 Nov 2007 18:09:20 +0000 DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nowsp; d=consulintel.es; s=MDaemon; t=1194721557; x=1195326357; i=jordi.palet@consulintel.es; q=dns; h=DomainKey-Signature:Received:User-Agent:Date:Subject:From:To: Message-ID:Thread-Topic:Thread-Index:In-Reply-To:Mime-version: Content-type:Content-transfer-encoding:Reply-To; b=ME8WsG0LvmjWNG XDVBHrnWNQFTJxXDWB38nbyoNT14PQ7OfgQduFBVoDooRVUVbdJHkuOCz0WJ7X40 E4QCyzXZFB3lGM/RcH6RdUQ88B1t8onq8RSn9Z3MhIMuEAhXY4Z58mKa3cA/SRly h4oInhgkFJVmiCPG/oxKKNHP2ewCk= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=MDaemon; d=consulintel.es; c=simple; q=dns; h=from:message-id; b=K+MbVV27oFShi5IiWpG8XRleu5wey4y4TAMAnu6N2IDnW9n/hl+e43fr/6L02sm33jqdny08MhKCmGTWI7JlvsG0AlkKn+C1K24QZVBNRUPSZe/2eLbiXCpI5+CtuVC9v63pH5TE9GJeACLkVMEvSYwkM7RoLRhYLlBkq+KcTe4=; Received: from [10.10.10.50] by consulintel.es (MDaemon.PRO.v8.1.5.R) with ESMTP id md50002717578.msg for ; Sat, 10 Nov 2007 19:05:54 +0100 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/11.3.6.070618 Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 19:09:00 +0100 Subject: Re: Follow-up work on NAT-PT From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ To: Message-ID: Thread-Topic: Follow-up work on NAT-PT Thread-Index: AcgjqL1Ro+XtwFpJRvSQlylbxmoAjAACRMIgAAS9Ey8= In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable X-Authenticated-Sender: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-HashCash: 1:20:071110:v6ops@ops.ietf.org::8pJqDFvuCJR/O6TJ:00000000000000000000000000000000000000000003yM6 X-MDRemoteIP: 217.126.187.160 X-Return-Path: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: v6ops@ops.ietf.org Reply-To: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-MDAV-Processed: consulintel.es, Sat, 10 Nov 2007 19:05:57 +0100 Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -2.2 (--) X-Scan-Signature: 4b800b1eab964a31702fa68f1ff0e955 Softwires and usage of private IPv4 addresses, that was the reason we worked on that ! I'm not yet convinced anything else is needed. Regards, Jordi > De: Christian Huitema > Responder a: > Fecha: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 08:12:27 -0800 > Para: Iljitsch van Beijnum , Brian E Carpenter > > CC: David Miles , IPv6 Operations > Conversaci=F3n: Follow-up work on NAT-PT > Asunto: RE: Follow-up work on NAT-PT >=20 > I don't think that we need to optimize for IPv6 only hosts. In practice, we > can expect that IPv6 capable hosts will either be dual stack. Device designers > will want to accommodate situations where their device connects to either an > IPv6 network, or an IPv4 network. Implementing "dual stack" is not much harder > than implementing "IPv6 only", so this is pretty much a no-brainer. >=20 > We need to optimize for reliability and operation support. There, we have to > reconcile the tension between two goals: networks are simpler and easier to > operate if they support one protocol instead of two; and, networks are simpler > if they do not rely on complex and error prone gateways. >=20 > Is it really more efficient for an ISP to operate an IPv6 only network? If it > is, then IPv4 services will have to be provided through some kind of overlay. > On the provider side, the overlay will have connect to some IPv4 "gateways" > that give access to the global IPv4 service. On the client side, the overlay > will extend either all the way to the client itself, or terminate at the > "access router". >=20 > If we just want to reuse old technology, the overlay can be built with simple > tunnels. Access routers routinely support protocols like PPPoA or PPPoE. PPP > over IPv6 (PPPo6?) would not be much of a stretch. It would also not look to > strange on the ISP side, since after all ISP are quite used to support PPP > servers. >=20 > If we don't like the hub and spoke nature of PPP, we can of course be creative > and build the overlay with some form of automatic tunneling. But I am not sure > that the automatic tunneling will actually reduce operation costs, or increase > reliability. >=20 > -- Christian Huitema >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 ********************************************** The IPv6 Portal: http://www.ipv6tf.org Bye 6Bone. Hi, IPv6 ! http://www.ipv6day.org This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual(s) named above. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, including attached files, is prohibited. 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    ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C823DE.D41F6BC0-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Sat Nov 10 19:44:38 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ir0wI-0000p5-F9 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 10 Nov 2007 19:44:38 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ir0wF-0001Ww-77 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 10 Nov 2007 19:44:38 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ir0u1-0009A8-Id for v6ops-data@psg.com; Sun, 11 Nov 2007 00:42:17 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [209.85.198.184] (helo=rv-out-0910.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ir0tm-00098S-0G for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Sun, 11 Nov 2007 00:42:12 +0000 Received: by rv-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id b22so923731rvf for ; Sat, 10 Nov 2007 16:42:01 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:organization:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=8n+HWqEersJWGp1bcdIz0yB97mK3ftd8fr/zXKFRxQk=; b=FGCHCVgGov9uhHkbabuN1IcUuTXVEvZnS+fNh//TkNG6uc3F8+JepqK6JJGx2oy+TkqbCGjmjn1mNnTYBB2X3mLDZvVWt6AncJuGpUDNE6eUOD2Zg51EP3C176M8FTiFswKLDQKkFPCSfYGgGQTM5dtCimcAMTOMY+L6wRI8Me0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:organization:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=pb7iUT9AykZ/8oPGkZDCT2QKYFr2mS19rYZhqNKGInNuZphZUm2B3x46CPUtX0Lov0xhK2MCr3nERF0rBQiQg2Wrc88iC9ZAg5fxDJ2QYI4X/FqUhCOfiLPXc7Hqp7Ia729hgiaZvJGt9bBAMUPXDgz54NzlfoVL061nyyvuVwo= Received: by 10.141.114.21 with SMTP id r21mr1713344rvm.1194741721792; Sat, 10 Nov 2007 16:42:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?10.1.1.7? ( [222.153.7.118]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id b8sm6579677rvf.2007.11.10.16.41.59 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Sat, 10 Nov 2007 16:42:01 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <47364FD1.3010706@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 13:41:53 +1300 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Windows/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Christian Huitema CC: Iljitsch van Beijnum , David Miles , IPv6 Operations Subject: Re: Follow-up work on NAT-PT References: <5FCD348C-5927-4F18-A002-0E3BF21ED5F4@NLnetLabs.nl> <47110056.70400@piuha.net> <47251FBA.9030507@gmail.com> <4726453A.2030500@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 68c8cc8a64a9d0402e43b8eee9fc4199 On 2007-11-11 05:12, Christian Huitema wrote: > I don't think that we need to optimize for IPv6 only hosts. I've been repeatedly told that we need to, with "real estate" usually being mentioned in the same breath. Otherwise, I'd agree with you completely - dual stack everything, with off the shelf IPv4 NAPT where you have to accommodate lack of IPv4 addresses. But the IAB explicitly asked for a solution where this is not the case. Brian From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Sat Nov 10 19:44:48 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ir0wS-0000zM-G1 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 10 Nov 2007 19:44:48 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ir0wP-0001X9-3W for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 10 Nov 2007 19:44:48 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ir0qB-0008oD-8Y for v6ops-data@psg.com; Sun, 11 Nov 2007 00:38:19 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [209.85.198.190] (helo=rv-out-0910.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ir0q0-0008ni-HI for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Sun, 11 Nov 2007 00:38:13 +0000 Received: by rv-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id b22so923144rvf for ; Sat, 10 Nov 2007 16:38:08 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:organization:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=HdxBZE79lddXq1G9l8d4PNuLY1fc0jG8hHxypqKRMuM=; b=FjKHHd49gOGX2Q8QAXpXSAKjNZ6S3ygm/mGiy+h/Y0wz98L/Ngch3o36e4ZW2RIuEBv+7SiJM7y5JTUDAXX3qPSjNBYjFlfiehy0ZtO6vvcK+ZFI0xAM29BHT4J3YxqsD7ki9b9a05/7CzJPn9KU87JQHg8Z4BwiRE00CwFwiAc= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:organization:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=tug9Y6zM5uRu2p533i0XWuD3V2NBl4sipNHWz+8iyVCKjXTyEqNiecYlq95H/gp8bkzfr9V7kEqMTpECP1h5QR0tsjMqMYYCIRPYYpOEx1M0oDhDILZW1lmcSfJYtKOZcY81YB09zw/rTHqum+MxkaD8MTQR501Ek2oRt76EsvE= Received: by 10.140.134.15 with SMTP id h15mr1724130rvd.1194741488367; Sat, 10 Nov 2007 16:38:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?10.1.1.7? ( [222.153.7.118]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id c19sm7723059rvf.2007.11.10.16.38.06 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Sat, 10 Nov 2007 16:38:08 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <47364EE8.3010008@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 13:38:00 +1300 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Windows/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Iljitsch van Beijnum CC: David Miles , IPv6 Operations Subject: Re: Follow-up work on NAT-PT References: <5FCD348C-5927-4F18-A002-0E3BF21ED5F4@NLnetLabs.nl> <47110056.70400@piuha.net> <47251FBA.9030507@gmail.com> <4726453A.2030500@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 7a6398bf8aaeabc7a7bb696b6b0a2aad >> No, SHANTI will work out of the box for any application that runs >> through a traditional NAT or NAPT without problems *and* has been >> upgraded to AF_INET6 sockets. > > Ugh! Mixing IPv6 and NAT is something that I'd really like to avoid. I've been trying to avoid it since 1994. My conclusion is that it is sadly impossible to avoid port translation, hence SHANTI. Read it before you condemn it... Brian From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Sat Nov 10 21:50:52 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ir2uS-0003NG-VT for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 10 Nov 2007 21:50:52 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ir2uO-0004Ge-Kn for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 10 Nov 2007 21:50:52 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ir2qA-000Gch-4t for v6ops-data@psg.com; Sun, 11 Nov 2007 02:46:26 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [131.107.115.212] (helo=smtp.microsoft.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ir2pz-000GcJ-Hb for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Sun, 11 Nov 2007 02:46:20 +0000 Received: from tk1-exhub-c101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.56.116.111) by TK5-EXGWY-E801.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.50) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.222.3; Sat, 10 Nov 2007 18:46:01 -0800 Received: from tk5-exmlt-w601.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com (157.54.70.16) by tk1-exhub-c101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.56.116.111) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 8.1.222.3; Sat, 10 Nov 2007 18:46:14 -0800 Received: from NA-EXMSG-W602.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.198]) by tk5-exmlt-w601.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com ([fe80::200:5efe:157.54.70.16%15]) with mapi; Sat, 10 Nov 2007 18:46:14 -0800 From: Christian Huitema To: Brian E Carpenter CC: Iljitsch van Beijnum , David Miles , IPv6 Operations Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 18:46:12 -0800 Subject: RE: Follow-up work on NAT-PT Thread-Topic: Follow-up work on NAT-PT Thread-Index: Acgj+6/um9maozh9SwKmMlda44IYNAAEBGqg Message-ID: References: <5FCD348C-5927-4F18-A002-0E3BF21ED5F4@NLnetLabs.nl> <47110056.70400@piuha.net> <47251FBA.9030507@gmail.com> <4726453A.2030500@gmail.com> <47364FD1.3010706@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <47364FD1.3010706@gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 93238566e09e6e262849b4f805833007 PiBPbiAyMDA3LTExLTExIDA1OjEyLCBDaHJpc3RpYW4gSHVpdGVtYSB3cm90ZToNCj4gPiBJIGRv bid0IHRoaW5rIHRoYXQgd2UgbmVlZCB0byBvcHRpbWl6ZSBmb3IgSVB2NiBvbmx5IGhvc3RzLg0K Pg0KPiBJJ3ZlIGJlZW4gcmVwZWF0ZWRseSB0b2xkIHRoYXQgd2UgbmVlZCB0bywgd2l0aCAicmVh bCBlc3RhdGUiDQo+IHVzdWFsbHkgYmVpbmcgbWVudGlvbmVkIGluIHRoZSBzYW1lIGJyZWF0aC4g T3RoZXJ3aXNlLCBJJ2QNCj4gYWdyZWUgd2l0aCB5b3UgY29tcGxldGVseSAtIGR1YWwgc3RhY2sg ZXZlcnl0aGluZywgd2l0aA0KPiBvZmYgdGhlIHNoZWxmIElQdjQgTkFQVCB3aGVyZSB5b3UgaGF2 ZSB0byBhY2NvbW1vZGF0ZSBsYWNrIG9mDQo+IElQdjQgYWRkcmVzc2VzLiBCdXQgdGhlIElBQiBl eHBsaWNpdGx5IGFza2VkIGZvciBhIHNvbHV0aW9uIHdoZXJlDQo+IHRoaXMgaXMgbm90IHRoZSBj YXNlLg0KDQpXZSBkb27igJl0IGhhdmUgYSByZWFsIGVzdGF0ZSBwcm9ibGVtIGluIFBDLWNsYXNz IG1hY2hpbmVzLCBvciBldmVuIGluIFBEQSwgc21hcnQgcGhvbmVzIGFuZCBzaW1pbGFyLg0KDQpX ZSBkbyBoYXZlIGEgcmVhbCBlc3RhdGUgcHJvYmxlbSBpbiBob21lIHJvdXRlcnMsIHdoZXJlIHdl IGFyZSB3aXRuZXNzaW5nIGEgcmFjZSB0byB0aGUgYm90dG9tLCBidXQgaXQgaXMgcHJldHR5IGhh cmQgdG8gaW1hZ2luZSBob21lIHJvdXRlcnMgbm90IHN1cHBvcnRpbmcgSVB2NC4gU28sIGlmIHRo ZXkgc3VwcG9ydCBJUHY2IGF0IGFsbCwgdGhleSB3aWxsIG1vc3QgY2VydGFpbmx5IGJlIGR1YWwg c3RhY2suDQoNCkkgY2FuIGltYWdpbmUgY2xhc3NlcyBvZiBkZXZpY2VzIHRoYXQgZGVjaWRlIHRv IGdvIElQdjYgb25seSwgYnV0IHRoZXNlIHdpbGwgdHlwaWNhbGx5IGJlIHNpbmdsZSBhcHBsaWNh dGlvbiBkZXZpY2VzLCB3aXRoIG5vIHJlcXVpcmVtZW50IHRvIHN1cHBvcnQgSVB2NC4NCg0KSW4g YW55IGNhc2UsIHJlYWwtZXN0YXRlIGFyZ3VtZW50cyB0ZW5kIHRvIGJlIHZlcnkgc3BlY3VsYXRp dmUuIFRoZSBpbXBsZW1lbnRhdGlvbiBzaXplIG9mIGFueSBwcm90b2NvbCBjYW4gdmFyeSB3aWRl bHksIGJhc2VkIGZvciBleGFtcGxlIG9uIHRyYWRlLW9mZiBiZXR3ZWVuIGNvZGUgc2l6ZSBhbmQg cGVyZm9ybWFuY2UuDQoNCldoYXQgaXMgdGhlIHJlYXNvbmluZyBvZiB0aGUgSUFCPyBXaGVuIHRo ZXkgbWVudGlvbiB0aGlzIHJlcXVpcmVtZW50LCBkbyB0aGV5IGhhdmUgc3BlY2lmaWMgY2xhc3Nl cyBvZiBkZXZpY2VzIGluIG1pbmQ/DQoNCi0tIENocmlzdGlhbiBIdWl0ZW1hDQoNCg0KDQo= From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Sat Nov 10 21:51:48 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ir2vM-0003RJ-EQ for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 10 Nov 2007 21:51:48 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ir2vI-0004Hx-Mh for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 10 Nov 2007 21:51:48 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ir2uK-000Grn-Cs for v6ops-data@psg.com; Sun, 11 Nov 2007 02:50:44 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [67.15.124.176] (helo=rakhan.thetiger.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ir2u9-000Gqb-CY for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Sun, 11 Nov 2007 02:50:38 +0000 Received: from [10.0.1.196] (c211-28-94-237.smelb1.vic.optusnet.com.au [211.28.94.237]) by rakhan.thetiger.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 633AD8A8651; Sat, 10 Nov 2007 20:03:27 -0600 (CST) Cc: Iljitsch van Beijnum , IPv6 Operations Message-Id: From: David Miles To: Christian Huitema , Brian E Carpenter In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v912) Subject: Re: Follow-up work on NAT-PT Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 13:50:27 +1100 References: <5FCD348C-5927-4F18-A002-0E3BF21ED5F4@NLnetLabs.nl> <47110056.70400@piuha.net> <47251FBA.9030507@gmail.com> <4726453A.2030500@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.912) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: c3a18ef96977fc9bcc21a621cbf1174b Brian, perhaps we need to better understand the reasoning behind the request and what "real estate" mean? I'd like to think there is a day that IPv4 can be retired from a service provider's network. It is not necessarily the dual-stack nature of the access network that will increase the cost, but the amount of NAPT that may need to occur within the service provider to continue v4 ops in a address-depleted environment. During transition period there will be dual-stack and eventually v4-NAPT (for at least some customers). My view is that: - During transition dual stack should be what every new device supports (ie, IPv6-only stacks is a bad idea during the transition period) - During transition we will see a move from IPv4 towards IPv6 - We should support connectivity for legacy clients as best we can until transition is complete So, the last point is most interesting - support the legacy customer base. These are the customers who have not got devices that are dual- stack or who are accessing services/servers that are not yet IPv6- enabled. With 79% of the market running Windows XP (Net Applications Oct 2007) we need to consider how to transition the bulk of our customers to IPv6. The methods are (in order of preference from the Service Provider's perspective): - Enable IPv6 in their existing OS - Upgrade to a new OS - Translation (along the lines of NAT-PT or the NAT46 component of draft-durand-ngtrans-nat64-nat46) Translation of any kind should be last resort, but this is where I'm interested to get thoughts on NAT-PT revival for an IPv4-only host OS contacting an IPv6 server (with the same limitation as today's IPv4 NA(P)T. I'm assuming that one day IPv4 resources will be too impractical (cost) to obtain so some business may be faced with IPv6- only connectivity for _servers_. Does anyone else think there may be a day when IPv4-only clients may exist (through provider NAPT) and because of v4 address shortages running a server on a well known port (http) may be restricted to IPv6 - to me this is a case for NAT46/NAT- PT - but its anyone's guess whether this day will come. -d On 11/11/2007, at 3:12 AM, Christian Huitema wrote: > I don't think that we need to optimize for IPv6 only hosts. In > practice, we can expect that IPv6 capable hosts will either be dual > stack. Device designers will want to accommodate situations where > their device connects to either an IPv6 network, or an IPv4 network. > Implementing "dual stack" is not much harder than implementing "IPv6 > only", so this is pretty much a no-brainer. > > We need to optimize for reliability and operation support. There, we > have to reconcile the tension between two goals: networks are > simpler and easier to operate if they support one protocol instead > of two; and, networks are simpler if they do not rely on complex and > error prone gateways. > > Is it really more efficient for an ISP to operate an IPv6 only > network? If it is, then IPv4 services will have to be provided > through some kind of overlay. On the provider side, the overlay will > have connect to some IPv4 "gateways" that give access to the global > IPv4 service. On the client side, the overlay will extend either all > the way to the client itself, or terminate at the "access router". > > If we just want to reuse old technology, the overlay can be built > with simple tunnels. Access routers routinely support protocols like > PPPoA or PPPoE. PPP over IPv6 (PPPo6?) would not be much of a > stretch. It would also not look to strange on the ISP side, since > after all ISP are quite used to support PPP servers. > > If we don't like the hub and spoke nature of PPP, we can of course > be creative and build the overlay with some form of automatic > tunneling. But I am not sure that the automatic tunneling will > actually reduce operation costs, or increase reliability. > > -- Christian Huitema > > > > > From TeribootesCurran@ferventrecords.com Sat Nov 10 21:53:41 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ir2xB-0003o7-D8; Sat, 10 Nov 2007 21:53:41 -0500 Received: from pool-151-197-48-158.phil.east.verizon.net ([151.197.48.158] helo=dadscomputer) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ir2xA-0008Aa-MU; Sat, 10 Nov 2007 21:53:41 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by host43150908.ferventrecords.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with SMTP id FCgMyRrd39.656431.Fe4.92G.0908238692708 for ; Sat, 10 Nov 2007 21:53:38 +0500 Message-ID: From: "Lynette Silver" To: , =20

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    ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C82446.AE6D2BC0-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Sun Nov 11 05:06:47 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ir9iJ-0007c7-09 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 11 Nov 2007 05:06:47 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ir9iF-0004gU-CT for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 11 Nov 2007 05:06:46 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ir9bX-000FtM-Vf for v6ops-data@psg.com; Sun, 11 Nov 2007 09:59:47 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [195.30.1.100] (helo=moebius2.Space.Net) by psg.com with smtp (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ir9ay-000Frk-6y for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Sun, 11 Nov 2007 09:59:31 +0000 Received: (qmail 5371 invoked by uid 1007); 11 Nov 2007 09:59:09 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=testkey; d=space.net; b=JsnlJwq+vSiMeeVvfPRH43B5iU1DNhvBbUHYZdb12e0WjapGXRrQBmw4CQz39oI1 ; Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 10:59:09 +0100 From: Gert Doering To: Christian Huitema Cc: Iljitsch van Beijnum , Brian E Carpenter , David Miles , IPv6 Operations Subject: Re: Follow-up work on NAT-PT Message-ID: <20071111095909.GH69215@Space.Net> References: <5FCD348C-5927-4F18-A002-0E3BF21ED5F4@NLnetLabs.nl> <47110056.70400@piuha.net> <47251FBA.9030507@gmail.com> <4726453A.2030500@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-NCC-RegID: de.space Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 93238566e09e6e262849b4f805833007 Hi, On Sat, Nov 10, 2007 at 08:12:27AM -0800, Christian Huitema wrote: > Implementing "dual stack" is not much harder than implementing "IPv6 > only", so this is pretty much a no-brainer. I want to challenge that. How are you going to implement "dual stack" if no more IPv4 addresses are available? Which is going to be a fairly typical scenario for new networks, some years into the future. (For the ISP backbone, dual stack is usually fairly easily done, because the number addresses needed is small - but what about the end user networks?) Gert Doering -- Total number of prefixes smaller than registry allocations: 122119 SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (89) 32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Sun Nov 11 09:14:07 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IrDZf-0007NF-Rz for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 11 Nov 2007 09:14:07 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IrDZc-0004Df-AG for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 11 Nov 2007 09:14:07 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IrDTA-0007IM-IV for v6ops-data@psg.com; Sun, 11 Nov 2007 14:07:24 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE, USER_IN_ALL_SPAM_TO autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [195.30.1.100] (helo=moebius2.Space.Net) by psg.com with smtp (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IrDSc-0007Fw-6l for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Sun, 11 Nov 2007 14:07:07 +0000 Received: (qmail 89480 invoked by uid 1007); 11 Nov 2007 14:06:43 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=testkey; d=space.net; b=HrXDH8zDWpODeRUE4qSG8VvxPEQm52DLCAtjRtTOr0KFIScD69nxSbb2JS86Zeuf ; Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 15:06:43 +0100 From: Gert Doering To: Brian Dickson Cc: Jeroen Massar , Mark Smith , Iljitsch van Beijnum , IPv6 Operations , ARIN People Posting Mailing List Subject: Re: Fwd: [ppml] Policy Proposal: IPv6 Assignment Size Reduction Message-ID: <20071111140643.GR34650@Space.Net> References: <471CC069.6040005@arin.net> <546B3558-09D5-4D9D-B56C-EBD7978DB392@muada.com> <20071030230521.0e01415c.ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org> <47272926.8010901@spaghetti.zurich.ibm.com> <47274694.5010300@ca.afilias.info> <47274D67.4000502@spaghetti.zurich.ibm.com> <47275773.7080706@ca.afilias.info> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <47275773.7080706@ca.afilias.info> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-NCC-RegID: de.space Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 0bc60ec82efc80c84b8d02f4b0e4de22 Hi, On Tue, Oct 30, 2007 at 12:10:27PM -0400, Brian Dickson wrote: > There is more than one TLD, many more than one. Each of *those* need at > *least* two /48's, since > the minimum number of nameservers for any zone is two. And *this* is just not true. TLD name servers can function perfectly well without their own routing table slot - they can happily live in upstream (PA) space, and be renumbered as need arises. Yes, PI space is so much more convenient, but isn't *everybody* "special"? *Anycasted* sets of servers are indeed special from a routing perspective, but not each TLD is using anycast, and thus your claim that "each TLD needs to /48" is just wrong. Gert Doering -- RIPE APWG chair -- Total number of prefixes smaller than registry allocations: 122119 SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (89) 32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Sun Nov 11 10:39:50 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IrEuc-0006PG-GZ for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 11 Nov 2007 10:39:50 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IrEuY-0006nq-4Q for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 11 Nov 2007 10:39:50 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IrEqr-000ELl-Hj for v6ops-data@psg.com; Sun, 11 Nov 2007 15:35:57 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [131.107.115.212] (helo=smtp.microsoft.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IrEqg-000EKx-Rj for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Sun, 11 Nov 2007 15:35:52 +0000 Received: from tk5-exhub-c103.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.70.186) by TK5-EXGWY-E801.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.50) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.222.3; Sun, 11 Nov 2007 07:35:31 -0800 Received: from TK5-EXMLT-W603.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com (157.54.18.6) by tk5-exhub-c103.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.70.186) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 8.1.222.3; Sun, 11 Nov 2007 07:35:45 -0800 Received: from NA-EXMSG-W602.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.198]) by TK5-EXMLT-W603.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com ([157.54.18.6]) with mapi; Sun, 11 Nov 2007 07:35:45 -0800 From: Christian Huitema To: Gert Doering CC: Iljitsch van Beijnum , Brian E Carpenter , David Miles , IPv6 Operations Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 07:35:43 -0800 Subject: RE: Follow-up work on NAT-PT Thread-Topic: Follow-up work on NAT-PT Thread-Index: AcgkSYQhzxM7jpJ0Swin/kWbTmIvLAALlPUA Message-ID: References: <5FCD348C-5927-4F18-A002-0E3BF21ED5F4@NLnetLabs.nl> <47110056.70400@piuha.net> <47251FBA.9030507@gmail.com> <4726453A.2030500@gmail.com> <20071111095909.GH69215@Space.Net> In-Reply-To: <20071111095909.GH69215@Space.Net> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 79899194edc4f33a41f49410777972f8 > From: Gert Doering [mailto:gert@space.net] > Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2007 1:59 AM > > On Sat, Nov 10, 2007 at 08:12:27AM -0800, Christian Huitema wrote: > > Implementing "dual stack" is not much harder than implementing "IPv6 > > only", so this is pretty much a no-brainer. > > I want to challenge that. How are you going to implement "dual stack" > if no more IPv4 addresses are available? I meant "implementing dual stack in a device". Suppose you have built an IP= v6 capable device. The added requirements for supporting IPv4 boils down to= DHCPv4 client, ARP support, and a little bit of glue. That really is not a= lot of "real estate". -- Christian Huitema From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Sun Nov 11 10:41:32 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IrEwG-0000ln-Us for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 11 Nov 2007 10:41:32 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IrEwD-0006sR-Km for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 11 Nov 2007 10:41:32 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IrEvC-000Eha-0z for v6ops-data@psg.com; Sun, 11 Nov 2007 15:40:26 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE, STOX_REPLY_TYPE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [65.67.187.82] (helo=defiant.dfw.nostrum.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IrEv0-000Efx-VU for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Sun, 11 Nov 2007 15:40:20 +0000 Received: from ssprunkxp (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by defiant.dfw.nostrum.com (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with SMTP id lABFe3jN022989; Sun, 11 Nov 2007 09:40:05 -0600 Message-ID: <005b01c82479$17b834d0$6401a8c0@atlanta.polycom.com> From: "Stephen Sprunk" To: "Gert Doering" , "Christian Huitema" Cc: "Iljitsch van Beijnum" , "Brian E Carpenter" , "David Miles" , "IPv6 Operations" References: <5FCD348C-5927-4F18-A002-0E3BF21ED5F4@NLnetLabs.nl> <47110056.70400@piuha.net> <47251FBA.9030507@gmail.com> <4726453A.2030500@gmail.com> <20071111095909.GH69215@Space.Net> Subject: Re: Follow-up work on NAT-PT Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 09:24:04 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.91.2/4749/Sun Nov 11 08:32:53 2007 on defiant.dfw.nostrum.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 9466e0365fc95844abaf7c3f15a05c7d Thus spake "Gert Doering" > On Sat, Nov 10, 2007 at 08:12:27AM -0800, Christian Huitema wrote: >> Implementing "dual stack" is not much harder than implementing "IPv6 >> only", so this is pretty much a no-brainer. > > I want to challenge that. How are you going to implement "dual stack" > if no more IPv4 addresses are available? > > Which is going to be a fairly typical scenario for new networks, some > years into the future. It's trivial to _implement_ dual-stack, but it's going to get difficult to _deploy_ dual-stack in a few years. The response I'm expecting -- so I'll save folks the effort -- is that people will dual-stack with RFC1918 and NAT on the v4 side. My question is (still) why that is any better than v6-only hosts with NAT-PT. All modern apps are version-agnostic, so they have to deal with the ugliness of NAT with either solution, and having v6-only hosts cuts the work required by leaf host/network admins in half. S Stephen Sprunk "God does not play dice." --Albert Einstein CCIE #3723 "God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the K5SSS dice at every possible opportunity." --Stephen Hawking From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Sun Nov 11 10:52:43 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IrF75-0003U2-3D for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 11 Nov 2007 10:52:43 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IrF72-0007Ly-NJ for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 11 Nov 2007 10:52:43 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IrF51-000Fgy-1D for v6ops-data@psg.com; Sun, 11 Nov 2007 15:50:35 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [195.30.1.100] (helo=moebius2.Space.Net) by psg.com with smtp (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IrF4V-000FbL-7Q for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Sun, 11 Nov 2007 15:50:20 +0000 Received: (qmail 2962 invoked by uid 1007); 11 Nov 2007 15:50:01 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=testkey; d=space.net; b=REITS324WSh+IV0ZDKshVoC1wjN/NhJZ7dhgAH5DiLlt4I+cDnhNXEVDcmB/kWaC ; Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 16:50:01 +0100 From: Gert Doering To: Christian Huitema Cc: Gert Doering , Iljitsch van Beijnum , Brian E Carpenter , David Miles , IPv6 Operations Subject: Re: Follow-up work on NAT-PT Message-ID: <20071111155001.GK69215@Space.Net> References: <5FCD348C-5927-4F18-A002-0E3BF21ED5F4@NLnetLabs.nl> <47110056.70400@piuha.net> <47251FBA.9030507@gmail.com> <4726453A.2030500@gmail.com> <20071111095909.GH69215@Space.Net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="5pLzjYWkeW5f0Kc3" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-NCC-RegID: de.space Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 50a516d93fd399dc60588708fd9a3002 --5pLzjYWkeW5f0Kc3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, On Sun, Nov 11, 2007 at 07:35:43AM -0800, Christian Huitema wrote: > > On Sat, Nov 10, 2007 at 08:12:27AM -0800, Christian Huitema wrote: > > > Implementing "dual stack" is not much harder than implementing "IPv6 > > > only", so this is pretty much a no-brainer. > > > > I want to challenge that. How are you going to implement "dual stack" > > if no more IPv4 addresses are available? >=20 > I meant "implementing dual stack in a device". Suppose you have > built an IPv6 capable device. The added requirements for supporting > IPv4 boils down to DHCPv4 client, ARP support, and a little bit of > glue. That really is not a lot of "real estate". I agree - and I misunderstood this (as Stephen Sprunk also pointed out) as "deploying in a network". The network stack should not very hard. Gert --=20 Total number of prefixes smaller than registry allocations: 122119 SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (89) 32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 --5pLzjYWkeW5f0Kc3 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (FreeBSD) iQCVAwUBRzckqakuBuNlUUl1AQI82wP/TzJEu4vhXABVaS6I8AdCdfCDeXaLCJVN Cn7AmTqWmUXL3nHBTK25525T2i855oZXrXlLWGtcMyAEjL+HYUgCnP+/+j+CJqye 6L9LqHjeLwgNVLhf/quqdF1zsm/NMGYjMZBufnNn7fjxBAMpOGlmL38KFXeeyAb7 2JzPETl0Ftw= =DUN/ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --5pLzjYWkeW5f0Kc3-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Sun Nov 11 11:20:33 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IrFY1-0007UJ-8J for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 11 Nov 2007 11:20:33 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IrFXz-0008Qe-1R for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 11 Nov 2007 11:20:33 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IrFVK-000Hxd-SV for v6ops-data@psg.com; Sun, 11 Nov 2007 16:17:46 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [194.242.114.73] (helo=poy.chewa.net) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IrFUk-000Hv1-Bo for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Sun, 11 Nov 2007 16:17:30 +0000 Received: from basile.remlab.net (unknown [IPv6:2001:0:53aa:64c:1888:7ff7:c1b1:6963]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: remi) by poy.chewa.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 395D6964F8 for ; Sun, 11 Nov 2007 17:17:09 +0100 (CET) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?R=E9mi_Denis-Courmont?= Organization: Remlab.net To: "IPv6 Operations" Subject: Re: Follow-up work on NAT-PT Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 18:17:07 +0200 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.7 References: <5FCD348C-5927-4F18-A002-0E3BF21ED5F4@NLnetLabs.nl> <20071111095909.GH69215@Space.Net> <005b01c82479$17b834d0$6401a8c0@atlanta.polycom.com> In-Reply-To: <005b01c82479$17b834d0$6401a8c0@atlanta.polycom.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200711111817.07677.rdenis@simphalempin.com> Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 30ac594df0e66ffa5a93eb4c48bcb014 Le Sunday 11 November 2007 17:24:04 Stephen Sprunk, vous avez =E9crit=A0: > All modern apps are version-agnostic, What about the many non-modern applications still in use? =2D-=20 R=E9mi Denis-Courmont http://www.remlab.net/ From GingermetallurgyCastle@freepress.net Sun Nov 11 14:32:26 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IrIXi-00033O-Be; Sun, 11 Nov 2007 14:32:26 -0500 Received: from host68-176-dynamic.10-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it ([87.10.176.68] helo=amministb55711) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IrIXh-0006Q9-Ou; Sun, 11 Nov 2007 14:32:26 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by host10301126.freepress.net (8.13.1/8.13.1) with SMTP id PaLblepB45.529858.z8i.F67.8248286897157 for ; Sun, 11 Nov 2007 20:31:56 -0100 Message-ID: From: "Desiree Metcalf" To: , =20

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    http://moistrave.net/ ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C824A0.0596A18E-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Sun Nov 11 20:58:18 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IrOZ8-0001iq-D8 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 11 Nov 2007 20:58:18 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IrOZ5-0002AM-0M for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 11 Nov 2007 20:58:18 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IrOQm-0006GL-1b for v6ops-data@psg.com; Mon, 12 Nov 2007 01:49:40 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.8 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [213.172.48.142] (helo=consulintel.es) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IrOQJ-0006FU-2T for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 12 Nov 2007 01:49:25 +0000 DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nowsp; d=consulintel.es; s=MDaemon; t=1194835557; x=1195440357; i=jordi.palet@consulintel.es; q=dns; h=DomainKey-Signature:Received:User-Agent:Date:Subject:From:To: Message-ID:Thread-Topic:Thread-Index:In-Reply-To:Mime-version: Content-type:Content-transfer-encoding:Reply-To; b=SvseJRAPxxTFgU MnoxSMKAP5qUjvsN4cJOerUPrVEStZnEpU9CGjQuGt5SxmXAPxMSNt4X/stOjDa7 reTw//+dmrFjt4N/tKc5hiGpVcOJ/vrizf3OBEPLME/vAjnUDqoBXeY2MpVF/PAf 3HRsOyzUSjce/EpFkp16gJa9p8Xg4= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=MDaemon; d=consulintel.es; c=simple; q=dns; h=from:message-id; b=VOQAbo+D9NasQLFqicUrU6gw3IwfDUNXx2afB0DnXDf0cLGXcFrw6p+dDU8xXUj07JzQvMQkEUkMzor1qGjWbqcqI5+4OCiRvMKf4uMRDI5lmShY5PtfrJ63Ff/U7M+ix7N3B8Vz0+ZIee84BpGc5ZbP+21mHS5bF8+LU3tEYYM=; Received: from [192.168.137.246] by consulintel.es (MDaemon.PRO.v8.1.5.R) with ESMTP id md50002718190.msg for ; Mon, 12 Nov 2007 02:45:55 +0100 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/11.3.6.070618 Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 23:49:02 -0200 Subject: Re: Follow-up work on NAT-PT From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ To: IPv6 Operations Message-ID: Thread-Topic: Follow-up work on NAT-PT Thread-Index: AcgkzjMlcbdsvZDBEdyIQgAX8sYbNQ== In-Reply-To: <20071111095909.GH69215@Space.Net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Authenticated-Sender: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-HashCash: 1:20:071112:v6ops@ops.ietf.org::IpHNFzZnW2jO6PT6:00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000O4g X-MDRemoteIP: 200.214.0.6 X-Return-Path: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: v6ops@ops.ietf.org Reply-To: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-MDAV-Processed: consulintel.es, Mon, 12 Nov 2007 02:45:56 +0100 Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 0a7aa2e6e558383d84476dc338324fab Same way as today do most of the end-users, private IPv4+NAT+IPv6 ! Applications that today work with IPv4+NAT keep working. New applications take advantage of IPv6. Regards, Jordi > De: Gert Doering > Responder a: > Fecha: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 10:59:09 +0100 > Para: Christian Huitema > CC: Iljitsch van Beijnum , Brian E Carpenter > , David Miles , IPv6 > Operations > Asunto: Re: Follow-up work on NAT-PT > > Hi, > > On Sat, Nov 10, 2007 at 08:12:27AM -0800, Christian Huitema wrote: >> Implementing "dual stack" is not much harder than implementing "IPv6 >> only", so this is pretty much a no-brainer. > > I want to challenge that. How are you going to implement "dual stack" > if no more IPv4 addresses are available? > > Which is going to be a fairly typical scenario for new networks, some > years into the future. > > (For the ISP backbone, dual stack is usually fairly easily done, because > the number addresses needed is small - but what about the end user networks?) > > Gert Doering > -- > Total number of prefixes smaller than registry allocations: 122119 > > SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard > Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann > D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) > Tel: +49 (89) 32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 > ********************************************** The IPv6 Portal: http://www.ipv6tf.org Bye 6Bone. Hi, IPv6 ! http://www.ipv6day.org This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual(s) named above. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, including attached files, is prohibited. From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Sun Nov 11 22:10:57 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IrPhR-00065v-Pj for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 11 Nov 2007 22:10:57 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IrPhO-0004WA-C7 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 11 Nov 2007 22:10:57 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IrPdY-000BXt-CT for v6ops-data@psg.com; Mon, 12 Nov 2007 03:06:56 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [64.25.87.235] (helo=thingmagic.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IrPcy-000BWT-P4 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 12 Nov 2007 03:06:40 +0000 Received: from [24.128.97.133] (account margaret HELO [192.168.2.6]) by thingmagic.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.0.13) with ESMTPSA id 2376584; Sun, 11 Nov 2007 22:06:19 -0500 In-Reply-To: <47251FBA.9030507@gmail.com> References: <5FCD348C-5927-4F18-A002-0E3BF21ED5F4@NLnetLabs.nl> <47110056.70400@piuha.net> <47251FBA.9030507@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Cc: Jari Arkko , IPv6 Operations Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Margaret Wasserman Subject: Re: Follow-up work on NAT-PT Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 22:06:19 -0500 To: Brian E Carpenter X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: f607d15ccc2bc4eaf3ade8ffa8af02a0 I'm a bit concerned about how solution-space-focused this discussion has been, especially when it is my understanding that we probably won't specify a solution in the v6ops WG. Exactly what types of operational problems exist that we need to solve? Why aren't the existing v4/v6 transition mechanisms sufficient to resolve those problems? Where are the gaps that needs to be filled? I really have no doubt that we could build a purer, cooler, "better" version of NAT-PT. In fact, I even have my own thoughts on how we could do that. But without understanding exactly what problem(s) we are trying to solve, I don't think that will be a very useful exercise. Margaret On Oct 28, 2007, at 7:48 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > On 2007-10-14 06:28, Jari Arkko wrote: >> Thanks for this, Olaf. Indeed, we are considering follow-up work, >> and understanding the scenarios & possible need for producing >> a revised version of NAT-PT is on the Vancouver agenda (currently >> planned to be a discussion in V6OPS, with protocol work to fall >> out to an INT area WG). > > I realise this may be jumping the gun a bit, but since I won't be > in Vancouver, here is a sketch of one possible direction. > > Brian > > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: I-D Action:draft-carpenter-shanti-00.txt > Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 18:20:01 -0400 > From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org > Reply-To: internet-drafts@ietf.org > To: i-d-announce@ietf.org > > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts > directories. > > Title : Shimmed IPv4/IPv6 Address Network Translation > Interface (SHANTI) > Author(s) : B. Carpenter > Filename : draft-carpenter-shanti-00.txt > Pages : 12 > Date : 2007-10-28 > > There is a pragmatic need for a packet-level translation mechanism > between IPv4 and IPv6, for scenarios where no other mode of IPv4 to > IPv6 interworking is possible. The mechanism defined here uses a > shim in both the translator and the IPv6 host to mitigate the > problems introduced by stateless translation. > > A URL for this Internet-Draft is: > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-carpenter-shanti-00.txt > From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Sun Nov 11 23:38:08 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IrR3o-0001Fq-Ko for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 11 Nov 2007 23:38:08 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IrR3j-0007Sr-Em for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 11 Nov 2007 23:38:08 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IrQzP-000Gwz-LP for v6ops-data@psg.com; Mon, 12 Nov 2007 04:33:35 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [209.85.198.186] (helo=rv-out-0910.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IrQzE-000Gw1-GU for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 12 Nov 2007 04:33:30 +0000 Received: by rv-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id b22so1216885rvf for ; Sun, 11 Nov 2007 20:33:24 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:organization:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=VMaT1BwzTkjmM2tZLRn4VhuW3QkTHcVuGZkMdcDmzBw=; b=nTSFPo9mUfNDVmgFAhBbYSF5Bd5Ip12Lq2FdwJGsx+39pWjCg+mIKuC8sr9MSEwIoNFPZpBZ9Wa4thX+K8NixIR/AeQQxinjqGFwmKn1FpTix7kvK6hhmsdE98ogk2bFZKd2w8EYeK4WUa3sCuOa1fb3Z5H2P6asmVGIRQcQZGY= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:organization:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=dpayFJhNdpXJrmLdfMd3SzbxxuAFpDM3Jm0dumf0cCWfU59vC3eXYOFwzTnwnymD/yb0CM92l1O1AeZzjTwT5kUBaT0Wt4gpyMZZ3QSjXJrP3pgQbYn68E5rOlrwbjRM5NEajWXeU8beMR7WP3C6buzjUFBzzaDqDOQwEwP7QH4= Received: by 10.141.122.20 with SMTP id z20mr2173189rvm.1194842003888; Sun, 11 Nov 2007 20:33:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?10.1.1.7? ( [222.153.7.118]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 2sm10602005rvi.2007.11.11.20.33.20 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Sun, 11 Nov 2007 20:33:23 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4737D78D.3090505@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 17:33:17 +1300 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Windows/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Christian Huitema CC: Gert Doering , Iljitsch van Beijnum , David Miles , IPv6 Operations Subject: Re: Follow-up work on NAT-PT References: <5FCD348C-5927-4F18-A002-0E3BF21ED5F4@NLnetLabs.nl> <47110056.70400@piuha.net> <47251FBA.9030507@gmail.com> <4726453A.2030500@gmail.com> <20071111095909.GH69215@Space.Net> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 7d33c50f3756db14428398e2bdedd581 On 2007-11-12 04:35, Christian Huitema wrote: >> From: Gert Doering [mailto:gert@space.net] >> Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2007 1:59 AM >> >> On Sat, Nov 10, 2007 at 08:12:27AM -0800, Christian Huitema wrote: >>> Implementing "dual stack" is not much harder than implementing "IPv6 >>> only", so this is pretty much a no-brainer. >> I want to challenge that. How are you going to implement "dual stack" >> if no more IPv4 addresses are available? > > I meant "implementing dual stack in a device". Suppose you have built an IPv6 capable device. The added requirements for supporting IPv4 boils down to DHCPv4 client, ARP support, and a little bit of glue. That really is not a lot of "real estate". All true, but if you dispute the IAB's statement please talk to the IAB. I've decided to stop being a purist on this and see what can really be done to mitigate the problems with NAT-PT. I suspect that if the IETF doesn't do this, then the deprecation of NAT-PT will be a complete no-op. Brian From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Nov 12 00:47:57 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IrS9N-00063f-Ui for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 12 Nov 2007 00:47:57 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IrS9I-0001lV-OU for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 12 Nov 2007 00:47:57 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IrS4W-000LMH-Lm for v6ops-data@psg.com; Mon, 12 Nov 2007 05:42:56 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE, USER_IN_ALL_SPAM_TO autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [192.16.178.5] (helo=mail.nttv6.net) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IrS3o-000LJc-Kv for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 12 Nov 2007 05:42:37 +0000 Received: from andrew.nttv6.net ([192.47.163.201]) by mail.nttv6.net (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id lAC5g8aQ049294; Mon, 12 Nov 2007 14:42:08 +0900 (JST) (envelope-from arifumi@nttv6.net) Message-ID: <4737E79F.9010109@nttv6.net> Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 14:41:51 +0900 From: Arifumi Matsumoto User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X; ja-JP-mac; rv:1.8.1.6) Gecko/20070728 Thunderbird/2.0.0.6 Mnenhy/0.7.5.666 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ipv6@ietf.org CC: v6ops Subject: draft-arifumi-6man-addr-select-sol-00.txt moved to 6man Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-2022-JP Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-3.0 (mail.nttv6.net [192.16.178.5]); Mon, 12 Nov 2007 14:42:08 +0900 (JST) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 73734d43604d52d23b3eba644a169745 Folks, our address selection solution draft moved to this working group. INT AD and v6ops chairs recommended us to do so, because considering solutions involves protocol work and v6ops is in OPS area. Problem statement and requirements drafts stay at v6ops. We'd like to continue this work cooperatively with v6ops people. The change from the previous version (posted to v6ops) is addtion of new requirement item "compatibility with RFC 3493", which reflected the discussion we had at v6ops ML. We welcome any questions and comments. ----- A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. Title : Solution approaches for address-selection problems Author(s) : A. Matsumoto, et al. Filename : draft-arifumi-6man-addr-select-sol-00.txt Pages : 17 Date : 2007-11-8 In response to address selection problem statement and requirement documents, this document describes approaches to solutions and evaluates proposed solution mechanisms in line with requirements. It also examines the applicability of each solution mechanism from the viewpoint of practical application. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-arifumi-6man-addr-select-sol-00.txt To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to i-d-announce-request at ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce to change your subscription settings. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-arifumi-6man-addr-select-sol-00.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv at ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-arifumi-6man-addr-select-sol-00.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. _______________________________________________ I-D-Announce mailing list I-D-Announce at ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce -- Arifumi Matsumoto IP Technology Expert Team Secure Communication Project NTT Information Sharing Platform Laboratories E-mail: arifumi@nttv6.net From DuanemcintyreVasquez@washingtonpost.com Mon Nov 12 00:51:09 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IrSCT-0004Ua-OZ; Mon, 12 Nov 2007 00:51:09 -0500 Received: from pool-72-92-228-183.prvdri.fios.verizon.net ([72.92.228.183] helo=your2s4kn5k0h3.home) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IrSCT-0003YH-GT; Mon, 12 Nov 2007 00:51:09 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by host61632662.washingtonpost.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with SMTP id OrdBYXiu73.219808.TfG.TD1.1214167692638 for ; Mon, 12 Nov 2007 12:50:39 +0500 Message-ID: <7ff001c82554$990373c0$0401a8c0@your2s4kn5k0h3> From: "Raul Mccoy" To: Cc: Subject: Hi Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 12:50:39 +0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_7FEC_01C82554.990373C0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d16ce744298aacf98517bc7c108bd198 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_7FEC_01C82554.990373C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Even if you have no erection problems Cialis would help you to make = better sex more often and to bring unimaginable plesure to her. 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    ------=_NextPart_000_7FEC_01C82554.990373C0-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Nov 12 00:56:13 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IrSHN-0002aE-4s for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 12 Nov 2007 00:56:13 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IrSHH-0001zf-L3 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 12 Nov 2007 00:56:13 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IrSFh-000M0o-3X for v6ops-data@psg.com; Mon, 12 Nov 2007 05:54:29 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [207.219.45.62] (helo=mail.libertyrms.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IrSFD-000Lyw-UL for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 12 Nov 2007 05:54:19 +0000 Received: from vgateway.int.libertyrms.com ([10.1.3.254] helo=look.libertyrms.com) by mail.libertyrms.com with esmtp (Exim 4.22) id 1IrSFB-0000iJ-KW; Mon, 12 Nov 2007 00:53:57 -0500 Received: from 199.19.51.237 (SquirrelMail authenticated user briand) by look.libertyrms.com with HTTP; Mon, 12 Nov 2007 00:53:57 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <50260.199.19.51.237.1194846837.squirrel@look.libertyrms.com> In-Reply-To: References: <5FCD348C-5927-4F18-A002-0E3BF21ED5F4@NLnetLabs.nl> <47110056.70400@piuha.net> <47251FBA.9030507@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 00:53:57 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Follow-up work on NAT-PT From: briand@ca.afilias.info To: "Margaret Wasserman" Cc: "Brian E Carpenter" , "Jari Arkko" , "IPv6 Operations" User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.9a MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Importance: Normal X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: briand@ca.afilias.info X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 386e0819b1192672467565a524848168 Margaret wrote (very concisely, I might add): > Exactly what types of operational problems exist that we need to > solve? Why aren't the existing v4/v6 transition mechanisms > sufficient to resolve those problems? Where are the gaps that needs > to be filled? Here are what I perceive (not just personally, but from a variety of input e.g. at NANOG, ARIN meetings in ABQ): 1) IPv4 access of *some* flavor from end-networks when end networks no longer have the ability to get their own IPv4 space (which precludes use of public IPv4 in a dual-stack environment) 2) Support for (1) from a large ISP perspective when the end-user or end-network connectivity is not dual-stack 3) Support for all of the above when the end nodes number greater than the number of IPs available under RFC 1918 (i.e. more IPs than one instance of all private addresses can cover) What is *not* needed, IMHO, is any-any IPv4 over the above connection requirments, e.g. the presumption is any two boxes above will be able to see each other via IPv6 directly, so P2P stuff should work okay, and the existing techniques for v4-only apps via private p2p ad-hoc ipv4 over ipv6 tunnels should be presumed to work fine. The presumption should be: clients accessing servers, where servers are IPv4, and clients are ipv6, and the predominant component of the access side of the clients, including possibly their ISP, and even their ISP's ISP, is v6 only. (Please see my reply to Brian Carpenters query, several days ago, I will flesh it out some more, but IPv4-IPv6-IPv4-IPv4NAT-(Internet-v4) with PT, may be an ugly hack with good scaling characteristics and the ability to do port-specific ALGs in a way that allows ISP/ISP support for ALGs, i.e. very attractive scaling characteristics. Brian D > I really have no doubt that we could build a purer, cooler, "better" > version of NAT-PT. In fact, I even have my own thoughts on how we > could do that. But without understanding exactly what problem(s) we > are trying to solve, I don't think that will be a very useful exercise. > > Margaret > > > On Oct 28, 2007, at 7:48 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > >> On 2007-10-14 06:28, Jari Arkko wrote: >>> Thanks for this, Olaf. Indeed, we are considering follow-up work, >>> and understanding the scenarios & possible need for producing >>> a revised version of NAT-PT is on the Vancouver agenda (currently >>> planned to be a discussion in V6OPS, with protocol work to fall >>> out to an INT area WG). >> >> I realise this may be jumping the gun a bit, but since I won't be >> in Vancouver, here is a sketch of one possible direction. >> >> Brian >> >> -------- Original Message -------- >> Subject: I-D Action:draft-carpenter-shanti-00.txt >> Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 18:20:01 -0400 >> From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org >> Reply-To: internet-drafts@ietf.org >> To: i-d-announce@ietf.org >> >> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts >> directories. >> >> Title : Shimmed IPv4/IPv6 Address Network Translation >> Interface (SHANTI) >> Author(s) : B. Carpenter >> Filename : draft-carpenter-shanti-00.txt >> Pages : 12 >> Date : 2007-10-28 >> >> There is a pragmatic need for a packet-level translation mechanism >> between IPv4 and IPv6, for scenarios where no other mode of IPv4 to >> IPv6 interworking is possible. The mechanism defined here uses a >> shim in both the translator and the IPv6 host to mitigate the >> problems introduced by stateless translation. >> >> A URL for this Internet-Draft is: >> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-carpenter-shanti-00.txt >> > > > From ReynaldoindiesBurnett@tattiebogle.net Mon Nov 12 03:23:54 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IrUaI-0003rQ-Gc; Mon, 12 Nov 2007 03:23:54 -0500 Received: from cablep-219-59-87.cablep.bezeqint.net ([62.219.59.87] helo=lk) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IrUaG-000299-V9; Mon, 12 Nov 2007 03:23:54 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by host55038480.tattiebogle.net (8.13.1/8.13.1) with SMTP id fkknXQa614.261840.aT4.mLA.6901494186139 for ; Mon, 12 Nov 2007 10:18:38 -0200 Message-ID: <10ee9501c82505$63dc5f30$573bdb3e@lk> From: "Miles Cochran" To: Subject: Your life Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 10:18:38 -0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_10EE91_01C82505.63DC5F30" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d16ce744298aacf98517bc7c108bd198 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_10EE91_01C82505.63DC5F30 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Even if you have no erection problems Cialis would help you to make = better sex more often and to bring unimaginable plesure to her. Just = disolve half a pill under your tongue and get ready for action in 15 = minutes! The tests showed that the majority of men after taking this = medication were able to have perfect erection during 36 hours! Package Quantity Price in your local drugstore* Our price LearnMoreNow 10 tabs 20 doses $95.95 $34.19 30 tabs 60 doses $349.95 $104.66 60 tabs 120 doses $549.95 $180.15 90 tabs 180 doses $789.95 $242.06 180 tabs 360 doses $1325.95 $445.61 When you are young and stressed up… When you are aged and never give up… Cialis gives you confidence in any chance, every time. ------=_NextPart_000_10EE91_01C82505.63DC5F30 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20

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    ------=_NextPart_000_10EE91_01C82505.63DC5F30-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Nov 12 03:34:50 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IrUks-0004cY-7z for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 12 Nov 2007 03:34:50 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IrUkn-0008Oq-Fm for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 12 Nov 2007 03:34:50 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IrUgj-0006ez-A7 for v6ops-data@psg.com; Mon, 12 Nov 2007 08:30:33 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [203.6.132.75] (helo=smtp1.mail.adnap.net.au) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IrUgC-0006aE-EW for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 12 Nov 2007 08:30:13 +0000 Received: from 219-90-147-77.ip.adam.com.au ([219.90.147.77] helo=mail.nosense.org) by smtp1.mail.adnap.net.au with esmtp (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IrUg1-000M61-LI; Mon, 12 Nov 2007 18:59:49 +1030 Received: from ubu.nosense.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mail.nosense.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 02882FC90; Mon, 12 Nov 2007 18:57:10 +1030 (CST) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 18:57:10 +1030 From: Mark Smith To: briand@ca.afilias.info Cc: "Margaret Wasserman" , "Brian E Carpenter" , "Jari Arkko" , "IPv6 Operations" Subject: Re: Follow-up work on NAT-PT Message-Id: <20071112185710.542c6022.ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org> In-Reply-To: <50260.199.19.51.237.1194846837.squirrel@look.libertyrms.com> References: <5FCD348C-5927-4F18-A002-0E3BF21ED5F4@NLnetLabs.nl> <47110056.70400@piuha.net> <47251FBA.9030507@gmail.com> <50260.199.19.51.237.1194846837.squirrel@look.libertyrms.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 2.4.5 (GTK+ 2.10.14; x86_64-unknown-linux-gnu) X-Location: Lower Mitcham, South Australia, 5062 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 22bbb45ef41b733eb2d03ee71ece8243 On Mon, 12 Nov 2007 00:53:57 -0500 (EST) briand@ca.afilias.info wrote: > Margaret wrote (very concisely, I might add): > > > Exactly what types of operational problems exist that we need to > > solve? Why aren't the existing v4/v6 transition mechanisms > > sufficient to resolve those problems? Where are the gaps that needs > > to be filled? > > Here are what I perceive (not just personally, but from a variety of > input e.g. at NANOG, ARIN meetings in ABQ): > > 1) IPv4 access of *some* flavor from end-networks when end networks no > longer have the ability to get their own IPv4 space (which precludes use > of public IPv4 in a dual-stack environment) As people have already chosen not to get enough of their own IPv4 address space, i.e. have used RFC1918 addressing instead of giving all their devices a world wide unique IPv4 address, solutions to this problem have already been developed and deployed - NAT/NAPT and ALGs such as web proxies. > 2) Support for (1) from a large ISP perspective when the end-user or > end-network connectivity is not dual-stack NAT/NAPT and ALGs can do that with RFC1918, and of course, already are. > 3) Support for all of the above when the end nodes number greater than the > number of IPs available under RFC 1918 (i.e. more IPs than one instance of > all private addresses can cover) How common will this case be? I'm only aware of one organisation who's having this problem, and that is a cable Internet company, and I'm guessing their problem is with their OAM private addresses for the CPE - I'd assume they've given the subscriber side of the CPE public addresses. While I don't know much about their situation, if it is plain cable CPE TFTP provisioning, I think they could address this problem by accepting less than full OAM reachability inside their network - having multiple OAM domains where each domain has it's own instance e.g. of 10/8. Theirs is a corner case, and their issue isn't an Internet connectivity / Internet application problem. 1 x "Class A", 16 x "Class B", and 256 x "Class C"s is an awful lot of private address space that could be used with web proxies and ALGs. Do you think ISPs would go to such extreme efforts to avoid deploying IPv6 that they'd approach exhausting the RFC1918 address space? I'd suggest they'd probably have gone out of business by then, as their customers would have abandoned them for their competitors who're providing "better Internet" by using IPv6. Regards, Mark. > > What is *not* needed, IMHO, is any-any IPv4 over the above connection > requirments, e.g. the presumption is any two boxes above will be able to > see each other via IPv6 directly, so P2P stuff should work okay, and the > existing techniques for v4-only apps via private p2p ad-hoc ipv4 over ipv6 > tunnels should be presumed to work fine. > > The presumption should be: > clients accessing servers, where servers are IPv4, and clients are ipv6, > and the predominant component of the access side of the clients, including > possibly their ISP, and even their ISP's ISP, is v6 only. > > (Please see my reply to Brian Carpenters query, several days ago, I will > flesh it out some more, but IPv4-IPv6-IPv4-IPv4NAT-(Internet-v4) with PT, > may be an ugly hack with good scaling characteristics and the ability to > do port-specific ALGs in a way that allows ISP/ISP support for ALGs, i.e. > very attractive scaling characteristics. > > Brian D > > > I really have no doubt that we could build a purer, cooler, "better" > > version of NAT-PT. In fact, I even have my own thoughts on how we > > could do that. But without understanding exactly what problem(s) we > > are trying to solve, I don't think that will be a very useful exercise. > > > > Margaret > > > > > > On Oct 28, 2007, at 7:48 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > > > >> On 2007-10-14 06:28, Jari Arkko wrote: > >>> Thanks for this, Olaf. Indeed, we are considering follow-up work, > >>> and understanding the scenarios & possible need for producing > >>> a revised version of NAT-PT is on the Vancouver agenda (currently > >>> planned to be a discussion in V6OPS, with protocol work to fall > >>> out to an INT area WG). > >> > >> I realise this may be jumping the gun a bit, but since I won't be > >> in Vancouver, here is a sketch of one possible direction. > >> > >> Brian > >> > >> -------- Original Message -------- > >> Subject: I-D Action:draft-carpenter-shanti-00.txt > >> Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 18:20:01 -0400 > >> From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org > >> Reply-To: internet-drafts@ietf.org > >> To: i-d-announce@ietf.org > >> > >> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts > >> directories. > >> > >> Title : Shimmed IPv4/IPv6 Address Network Translation > >> Interface (SHANTI) > >> Author(s) : B. Carpenter > >> Filename : draft-carpenter-shanti-00.txt > >> Pages : 12 > >> Date : 2007-10-28 > >> > >> There is a pragmatic need for a packet-level translation mechanism > >> between IPv4 and IPv6, for scenarios where no other mode of IPv4 to > >> IPv6 interworking is possible. The mechanism defined here uses a > >> shim in both the translator and the IPv6 host to mitigate the > >> problems introduced by stateless translation. > >> > >> A URL for this Internet-Draft is: > >> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-carpenter-shanti-00.txt > >> > > > > > > > > > From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Nov 12 03:48:11 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IrUxn-0001OY-49 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 12 Nov 2007 03:48:11 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IrUxk-0000RF-M3 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 12 Nov 2007 03:48:11 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IrUuw-0007ky-1E for v6ops-data@psg.com; Mon, 12 Nov 2007 08:45:14 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.0 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00, DATE_IN_PAST_12_24,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [83.149.65.1] (helo=sequoia.muada.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IrUul-0007iJ-4Z for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 12 Nov 2007 08:45:08 +0000 Received: from [IPv6:2001:720:410:1001:21b:63ff:fe92:9fbb] ([IPv6:2001:720:410:1001:21b:63ff:fe92:9fbb]) (authenticated bits=0) by sequoia.muada.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id lAC8iqSu018469 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Mon, 12 Nov 2007 09:44:53 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from iljitsch@muada.com) Cc: Message-Id: <71D6FE05-48AC-40AD-AEDC-EEC49AFB8D58@muada.com> From: Iljitsch van Beijnum To: jordi.palet@consulintel.es In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v912) Subject: Re: Follow-up work on NAT-PT Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 20:47:11 +0100 References: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.912) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -2.2 (--) X-Scan-Signature: ea4ac80f790299f943f0a53be7e1a21a On 10 nov 2007, at 19:09, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote: > Softwires and usage of private IPv4 addresses, that was the reason > we worked > on that ! > I'm not yet convinced anything else is needed. You say that in response to: >> If we just want to reuse old technology, the overlay can be built >> with simple >> tunnels. Access routers routinely support protocols like PPPoA or >> PPPoE. PPP >> over IPv6 (PPPo6?) would not be much of a stretch. It would also >> not look to >> strange on the ISP side, since after all ISP are quite used to >> support PPP >> servers. This is an excellent approach if/when a host with only native IPv6 connectivity needs full, unrestricted IPv4 connectivity, and this connectivity, along with the IPv4 address that goes with it, can reasonably made available. The trouble with this approach is that it still requires IPv4 address provisioning, while the interesting aspect of NAT is that the address of the host behind the NAT is of no interest to anyone. So the IPv4 provisioning step can easily be optimized away. From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Nov 12 03:48:19 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IrUxv-0001Pz-Kt for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 12 Nov 2007 03:48:19 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IrUxs-0000RT-C1 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 12 Nov 2007 03:48:19 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IrUv5-0007m4-8c for v6ops-data@psg.com; Mon, 12 Nov 2007 08:45:23 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.0 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00, DATE_IN_PAST_12_24,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [83.149.65.1] (helo=sequoia.muada.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IrUuu-0007kg-Dm for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 12 Nov 2007 08:45:17 +0000 Received: from [IPv6:2001:720:410:1001:21b:63ff:fe92:9fbb] ([IPv6:2001:720:410:1001:21b:63ff:fe92:9fbb]) (authenticated bits=0) by sequoia.muada.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id lAC8iqSv018469 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Mon, 12 Nov 2007 09:44:55 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from iljitsch@muada.com) Cc: IPv6 Operations Message-Id: From: Iljitsch van Beijnum To: Brian E Carpenter In-Reply-To: <47364EE8.3010008@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v912) Subject: Re: Follow-up work on NAT-PT Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 20:52:43 +0100 References: <5FCD348C-5927-4F18-A002-0E3BF21ED5F4@NLnetLabs.nl> <47110056.70400@piuha.net> <47251FBA.9030507@gmail.com> <4726453A.2030500@gmail.com> <47364EE8.3010008@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.912) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -2.2 (--) X-Scan-Signature: 798b2e660f1819ae38035ac1d8d5e3ab On 11 nov 2007, at 1:38, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >>> No, SHANTI will work out of the box for any application that runs >>> through a traditional NAT or NAPT without problems *and* has been >>> upgraded to AF_INET6 sockets. >> Ugh! Mixing IPv6 and NAT is something that I'd really like to avoid. > I've been trying to avoid it since 1994. My conclusion is that > it is sadly impossible to avoid port translation, hence SHANTI. > Read it before you condemn it... I'm not condemning it. And I've already read it. :-) I'll have a draft of the approach that I wrote about on october 19 on monday. It's like SHANTI in a lot of ways. One important difference is that host can use AF_INET sockets to talk to IPv4 destinations, so applications have the option of limiting the application of NAT code to AF_INET sockets or the situation where they detect an RFC 1918 source address. (And applications that don't yet support AF_INET6 also work.) From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Nov 12 04:09:13 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IrVI9-0006jU-J9 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 12 Nov 2007 04:09:13 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IrVI6-0001NO-Av for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 12 Nov 2007 04:09:13 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IrVFy-0009Zd-Ny for v6ops-data@psg.com; Mon, 12 Nov 2007 09:06:58 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.4 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [144.254.224.140] (helo=ams-iport-1.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IrVFO-0009Xa-AE for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 12 Nov 2007 09:06:41 +0000 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.21,404,1188770400"; d="scan'208";a="157423437" Received: from ams-dkim-1.cisco.com ([144.254.224.138]) by ams-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 12 Nov 2007 10:06:21 +0100 Received: from ams-core-1.cisco.com (ams-core-1.cisco.com [144.254.224.150]) by ams-dkim-1.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id lAC96Ku3021032 for ; Mon, 12 Nov 2007 10:06:20 +0100 Received: from xbh-ams-331.emea.cisco.com (xbh-ams-331.cisco.com [144.254.231.71]) by ams-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id lAC96K8i010710 for ; Mon, 12 Nov 2007 09:06:20 GMT Received: from xmb-ams-33c.emea.cisco.com ([144.254.231.91]) by xbh-ams-331.emea.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Mon, 12 Nov 2007 10:06:20 +0100 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: FW: New Version Notification for draft-vandevelde-v6ops-ra-guard-00 Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 10:06:00 +0100 Message-ID: <70672088D7D2CE409FB05DDD7B73D381B54E69@xmb-ams-33c.emea.cisco.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: New Version Notification for draft-vandevelde-v6ops-ra-guard-00 Thread-Index: AcglCm5QAvdBDeEfS4qN+l82wTBdcwAAAqRA From: "Gunter Van de Velde (gvandeve)" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 12 Nov 2007 09:06:20.0026 (UTC) FILETIME=[4A3A45A0:01C8250B] X-TM-AS-Product-Ver: SMEX-8.0.0.1181-5.000.1023-15540.001 X-TM-AS-Result: No--7.592200-8.000000-31 X-TM-AS-User-Approved-Sender: No X-TM-AS-User-Blocked-Sender: No DKIM-Signature: v=0.5; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=1393; t=1194858380; x=1195722380; c=relaxed/simple; s=amsdkim1002; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=gvandeve@cisco.com; z=From:=20=22Gunter=20Van=20de=20Velde=20(gvandeve)=22=20 |Subject:=20FW=3A=20New=20Version=20Notification=20for=20draft-vandevelde -v6ops-ra-guard-00=20 |Sender:=20; bh=mLqEwcBruAL9e9ioC76qCwDp21iKclHMHUHVLxoBw3Q=; b=b3OA72Tw/vzqXytkj6fdHoM7oTZMoxQYHLYwZ0FB32iqP14eksceyS1J/qU3dfGrIspTO3UY Fg9vwfX7Ja13K87z6sDr8K1F2JY16ZnW0NxQWBW3OaiZR+Mt0vI34VeC; Authentication-Results: ams-dkim-1; header.From=gvandeve@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/amsdkim1002 verified; ); Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: c1c65599517f9ac32519d043c37c5336 Hi All, The authors of "IPv6 RA-Guard" would like to hear feedback from the v6ops WG. The note describing the technology can be found at http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-vandevelde-v6ops-ra-guard-00.t xt Brgds, G/ -----Original Message----- From: IETF I-D Submission Tool [mailto:idsubmission@ietf.org]=20 Sent: Monday, November 12, 2007 10:00 AM To: gunter (mailer list) Cc: Eric Levy- Abegnoli (elevyabe); Chip Popoviciu (cpopovic); mohacsi@niif.hu Subject: New Version Notification for draft-vandevelde-v6ops-ra-guard-00 A new version of I-D, draft-vandevelde-v6ops-ra-guard-00.txt has been successfuly submitted by Gunter Van de Velde and posted to the IETF repository. Filename: draft-vandevelde-v6ops-ra-guard Revision: 00 Title: IPv6 RA-Guard Creation_date: 2007-11-12 WG ID: Independent Submission Number_of_pages: 7 Abstract: When using IPv6 within a single L2 network segment it is assumed that for good network behavior, the available routers attached to the segment are valid routers. A rogue Router Advertisement (RA) [1] however could be sent by accident by a misconfigured network device, or on purpose by malicious devices. This document proposes a solution to reduce the threat of rogue RAs by enabling layer 2 devices to provide forward RAs received over designated ports. =20 The IETF Secretariat. From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Nov 12 04:19:04 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IrVRg-0006Hg-1R for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 12 Nov 2007 04:19:04 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IrVRd-0001w5-IF for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 12 Nov 2007 04:19:04 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IrVQN-000AaM-F6 for v6ops-data@psg.com; Mon, 12 Nov 2007 09:17:43 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [83.149.65.1] (helo=sequoia.muada.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IrVQB-000AZg-Vs for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 12 Nov 2007 09:17:37 +0000 Received: from [IPv6:2001:720:410:1001:21b:63ff:fe92:9fbb] ([IPv6:2001:720:410:1001:21b:63ff:fe92:9fbb]) (authenticated bits=0) by sequoia.muada.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id lAC9HNMk018998 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Mon, 12 Nov 2007 10:17:23 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from iljitsch@muada.com) Cc: Brian E Carpenter , Jari Arkko , IPv6 Operations Message-Id: <40142B09-4FDF-46F3-8735-398BA5B8D24C@muada.com> From: Iljitsch van Beijnum To: Margaret Wasserman In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v912) Subject: Problem statement, was: Re: Follow-up work on NAT-PT Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 10:17:26 +0100 References: <5FCD348C-5927-4F18-A002-0E3BF21ED5F4@NLnetLabs.nl> <47110056.70400@piuha.net> <47251FBA.9030507@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.912) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 7aafa0432175920a4b3e118e16c5cb64 On 12 nov 2007, at 4:06, Margaret Wasserman wrote: > Exactly what types of operational problems exist that we need to > solve? The problem is that there is no operational problem: IPv6 deployment can still generously be rounded down to 0. > Why aren't the existing v4/v6 transition mechanisms sufficient to > resolve those problems? Where are the gaps that needs to be filled? As per the above, that's a somewhat philosophical question. For a large content site deploying IPv6 is non-trivial, and you can't really ease into it. So as long as all the users are on IPv4, few of the content people are going to do IPv6. You don't need much IPv4 space for serving up content so the IPv4 depletion per se isn't going to push the content people to IPv6. For ISPs this is very different: for them, it's much more doable to give some of their customers IPv6 without needing to convert the infrastructure for their current customers (obviously I'm talking big picture here, I'm not saying it's completely trivial). Also, the IPv4 depletion WILL hit ISPs. The problem is that ISPs can't give their customers IPv6-only connectivity while the content is still only reachable through IPv4. Now here's the philosophical issue: is it better to run IPv6-only + translation to IPv4, or is it better to have dual stack IPv6 + NATed IPv4? As someone who used to configure routers for a living, my answer is: ditch IPv4 in as many corners of your network as possible, routing just IPv6 is much simpler. But I don't think this sentiment is universally shared. An argument that many people aren't going to buy into would be that if IPv4/NAT and IPv6 must be provisioned separately this probably means that in a lot of instances, just IPv4/NAT will be provisioned and even with no new IPv4 addresses available we may not see much IPv6 adoption. Another argument is that if ISPs are going to do NAT, this pretty much means that most customers, who run their own NAT, are going to be behind two layers of NAT, which is worse than just one layer of NAT. The reason for this is that there is no easy way for an ISP to provision multiple IPv4 addresses on a single customer link. With IPv6+translation you can use DHCPv6 prefix delegation to give users enough IPv6 space for all their hosts and only the translator does a single round of NAT. In my opinion, we shouldn't try to get consensus on whether IPv6+translation is better than dual stack IPv6+IPv4/NAT, but just go ahead and make the best IPv6+translation solution we can and let the operators choose what they want to deploy. 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(jcurran:mail.com?mail.com@69.255.34.88) by smtp1.us4.outblaze.com with SMTP; 12 Nov 2007 13:18:42 -0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <40142B09-4FDF-46F3-8735-398BA5B8D24C@muada.com> References: <5FCD348C-5927-4F18-A002-0E3BF21ED5F4@NLnetLabs.nl> <47110056.70400@piuha.net> <47251FBA.9030507@gmail.com> <40142B09-4FDF-46F3-8735-398BA5B8D24C@muada.com> Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 08:18:40 -0500 To: Iljitsch van Beijnum , Margaret Wasserman From: John Curran Subject: Re: Problem statement, was: Re: Follow-up work on NAT-PT Cc: IPv6 Operations Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: b280b4db656c3ca28dd62e5e0b03daa8 At 10:17 AM +0100 11/12/07, Iljitsch van Beijnum wrote: >As per the above, that's a somewhat philosophical question. For a large content site deploying IPv6 is non-trivial, and you can't really ease into it. So as long as all the users are on IPv4, few of the content people are going to do IPv6. You don't need much IPv4 space for serving up content so the IPv4 depletion per se isn't going to push the content people to IPv6. Agreed. >For ISPs this is very different: for them, it's much more doable to give some of their customers IPv6 without needing to convert the infrastructure for their current customers (obviously I'm talking big picture here, I'm not saying it's completely trivial). Also, the IPv4 depletion WILL hit ISPs. The problem is that ISPs can't give their customers IPv6-only connectivity while the content is still only reachable through IPv4. Also agreed. >Now here's the philosophical issue: is it better to run IPv6-only + translation to IPv4, or is it better to have dual stack IPv6 + NATed IPv4? > >As someone who used to configure routers for a living, my answer is: ditch IPv4 in as many corners of your network as possible, routing just IPv6 is much simpler. But I don't think this sentiment is universally shared. Agreed; the ISP's I speak with aren't 'ditching IPv4' within their backbones; i.e. they see dual-stack for their *backbone* network infrastructure as somewhat inevitable. This is not the case for the ISPs distribution infrastructure, and/or what is finally used to connect individual customers. No big new IPv4 address blocks from the RIR's means no way to assign such blocks to a given metro region, and this means IPv6 has to be used for expansion. >An argument that many people aren't going to buy into would be that if IPv4/NAT and IPv6 must be provisioned separately this probably means that in a lot of instances, just IPv4/NAT will be provisioned and even with no new IPv4 addresses available we may not see much IPv6 adoption. I'm going to elaborate a bit on this: we *will* see ISP's squeezing IPv4 address space out of every corner of their infrastructure, and from their downstream customers who had provider assigned (PA) IP space, and from anyplace else they can get better utilization, and then reusing the IPv4 pieces within their infrastructure with something resembling a hard customer requirement that the customer run NAT internally and live behind a handful of IPv4 addresses. Whether or not IPv6 will also be available over that connection depends entirely on the vision of the ISP, and might be rather depressing for the next few years. Eventually, ISP's run out of internal and delegated already routed IPv4 address space remnants, and things begin to get very, very interesting. For a short-time, I imagine that there may be some ISP's who succeed in obtaining new, large, significant IPv4 address space blocks from sources unknown, and immediately deploy them for customer growth as described above. This also works for a short while, only with whatever expense is occurred obtaining the blocks added to the operational expense. The routing impact of this is also minimal, as it adds many new customers for each new block routed, and resembles our existing suboptimal-but-working routing dynamics. FYI - one would hope that the new customers being offered connectivity behind a handful of IPv4 addresses & NAT is also being offered IPv6 (but then again, it's possible that the IPv6 network upgrade budget went instead into finding those new IPv4 address blocks... ;-) At some point in time, the ability to connect new customers with any form of provider allocated IPv4 space simply becomes untenable. For a while, customers will still be able to get connected with IPv4, under the innovative "BYOA" (bring your own address) plan. This is where the fun really starts, since customers only value IPv4 uniqueness, and hierarchical original and aggregatability aren't likely foremost in the mind of the corporate IT manager who's been told to get the company connected at any cost. We go through an interesting period of attempting to add high numbers of very small customer provided IPv4 blocks completely lacking in hierarchy to the routing tables, until it becomes painfully obvious that this doesn't work. At this point (and not much prior in some unfortunate cases), ISP's will realize the need connect new customers via just IPv6, and have their customer obtain access to the 'legacy' IPv4-connected portion of the Internet via some form of NAT-PT or equivalent translation (with all the downsides that such entails). >Another argument is that if ISPs are going to do NAT, this pretty much means that most customers, who run their own NAT, are going to be behind two layers of NAT, which is worse than just one layer of NAT. The reason for this is that there is no easy way for an ISP to provision multiple IPv4 addresses on a single customer link. With IPv6+translation you can use DHCPv6 prefix delegation to give users enough IPv6 space for all their hosts and only the translator does a single round of NAT. > >In my opinion, we shouldn't try to get consensus on whether IPv6+translation is better than dual stack IPv6+IPv4/NAT, but just go ahead and make the best IPv6+translation solution we can and let the operators choose what they want to deploy. Thank you. That's the only responsible approach for the IETF to take on this issue, since the alternative of insisting on just dual-stack presumes perfect forecasting of the actual business situation of every ISP five years from now... /John From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Nov 12 08:59:52 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IrZpQ-0006Au-7E for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 12 Nov 2007 08:59:52 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IrZpN-0004yK-RF for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 12 Nov 2007 08:59:52 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IrZmz-000D7r-3l for v6ops-data@psg.com; Mon, 12 Nov 2007 13:57:21 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [83.149.65.1] (helo=sequoia.muada.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IrZmO-000D3Z-9B for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 12 Nov 2007 13:57:07 +0000 Received: from [IPv6:2001:720:410:1001:21b:63ff:fe92:9fbb] ([IPv6:2001:720:410:1001:21b:63ff:fe92:9fbb]) (authenticated bits=0) by sequoia.muada.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id lACDuce7024079 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 12 Nov 2007 14:56:39 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from iljitsch@muada.com) Message-Id: From: Iljitsch van Beijnum To: IPv6 Operations Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v912) Subject: Fwd: I-D Action:draft-van-beijnum-modified-nat-pt-00.txt Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 14:56:38 +0100 References: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.912) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 769a46790fb42fbb0b0cc700c82f7081 This is the modified NAT-PT draft that I mentioned this weekend. Chairs: I would like the opportunity to present this draft in Vancouver, if possible. If desired I can talk about alternatives for / changes to NAT-PT in general rather than this specific proposal. Iljitsch Begin forwarded message: > From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org > Date: 12 november 2007 14:50:02 GMT+01:00 > To: i-d-announce@ietf.org > Subject: I-D Action:draft-van-beijnum-modified-nat-pt-00.txt > Reply-To: internet-drafts@ietf.org > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts > directories. > Title : Modified Network Address Translation - Protocol > Translation > Author(s) : I. van Beijnum > Filename : draft-van-beijnum-modified-nat-pt-00.txt > Pages : 9 > Date : 2007-11-12 > A smooth transition from IPv4 to IPv6 requires that either all hosts > are upgraded to dual stack before the first hosts can become IPv6- > only, or that there be some mechanism for IPv6-only hosts to talk to > IPv4-only hosts. 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    ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C8253D.54971780-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Nov 12 09:34:06 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IraMY-0006KB-3a for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 12 Nov 2007 09:34:06 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IraMV-0006Pl-Nd for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 12 Nov 2007 09:34:06 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IraIw-000HbH-3V for v6ops-data@psg.com; Mon, 12 Nov 2007 14:30:22 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.4 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE, USER_IN_ALL_SPAM_TO autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [152.78.68.129] (helo=owl.ecs.soton.ac.uk) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IraIT-000HWW-3v for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 12 Nov 2007 14:30:12 +0000 X-ECS-MailScanner-Watermark: 1195482583.68458@YaCxWlMgmbszGs9qDwTTjA Received: from goose.ecs.soton.ac.uk (goose.ecs.soton.ac.uk [IPv6:2001:630:d0:f102:230:48ff:fe78:67b5]) by owl.ecs.soton.ac.uk (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id lACEThnf032750; Mon, 12 Nov 2007 14:29:43 GMT X-ECS-MailScanner-Watermark: 1195482417.83168@Dfkgnf3X9vT70AnO4xr8hg Received: from login.ecs.soton.ac.uk (login.ecs.soton.ac.uk [IPv6:2001:630:d0:f102:230:48ff:fe59:5f12]) by goose.ecs.soton.ac.uk (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id lACEQvVY017981 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 12 Nov 2007 14:26:57 GMT Received: from login.ecs.soton.ac.uk (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by login.ecs.soton.ac.uk (8.13.8/8.11.6) with ESMTP id lACETbck010690; Mon, 12 Nov 2007 14:29:37 GMT Received: (from tjc@localhost) by login.ecs.soton.ac.uk (8.13.8/8.13.8/Submit) id lACETbWM010689; Mon, 12 Nov 2007 14:29:37 GMT Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 14:29:37 +0000 From: Tim Chown To: v6ops@ops.ietf.org, dhcwg@ietf.org Subject: Regarding I-D Action:draft-chown-v6ops-rogue-ra-00.txt Message-ID: <20071112142937.GO27247@login.ecs.soton.ac.uk> Mail-Followup-To: v6ops@ops.ietf.org, dhcwg@ietf.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.2i X-ECS-MailScanner: Found to be clean, Found to be clean X-ECS-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-ECS-MailScanner-From: tjc@ecs.soton.ac.uk Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 69a74e02bbee44ab4f8eafdbcedd94a1 Hi, A heads-up that to complement Gunter et al's RA-Guard draft, I have submitted a problem statement draft based on IETF-69 discussions and subsequent list discussions. This captures comments on problem scenarios, possible solutions, and includes potential new DHCPv6 features. This discussions also highlighted a possible requirement for a DHCPv6 option for on-link prefixes, which should probably be taken forward in the DHC WG. The details are as follows: A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. Title : Rogue IPv6 Router Advertisement Problem Statement Author(s) : T. Chown, S. Venaas Filename : draft-chown-v6ops-rogue-ra-00.txt Pages : 9 Date : 2007-11-12 When deploying IPv6 networks, whether IPv6-only or dual-stack, routers are configured to use IPv6 Router Advertisements to convey information to on link nodes that enable them to autoconfigure on the network. This information includes the implied default router address taken from the observed source address of the Router Advertisement (RA) message. However, in some networks 'bogus' RAs are observed, which may be present due to misconfigurations or possibly malicious attacks on the network. In this draft we summarise the scenarios in which rogue RAs may be observed, and we present a list of possible solutions to the problem. The goal of this draft is to present a framework around which solutions can be proposed and discussed. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-chown-v6ops-rogue-ra-00.txt From BertielimestoneMclain@washingtonpost.com Mon Nov 12 11:45:50 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IrcQ2-0002aq-Pt; Mon, 12 Nov 2007 11:45:50 -0500 Received: from [190.172.178.130] (helo=internet) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IrcQ2-0007pD-5s; Mon, 12 Nov 2007 11:45:50 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by host90488262.washingtonpost.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with SMTP id kRzXbCkj62.537122.J7F.Lj9.4119688519924 for ; Mon, 12 Nov 2007 13:45:32 +0300 Message-ID: <1766301c8254b$7c94ca80$6800a8c0@INTERNET> From: "Tamera Call" To: , =20

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    ------=_NextPart_000_2A41_01C82560.FE797540-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Nov 12 14:34:50 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Irf3a-0004Lc-D9 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 12 Nov 2007 14:34:50 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Irf3X-0001ZQ-8A for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 12 Nov 2007 14:34:50 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Irf0v-000PAx-4T for v6ops-data@psg.com; Mon, 12 Nov 2007 19:32:05 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [195.30.1.100] (helo=moebius2.Space.Net) by psg.com with smtp (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Irf0L-000P62-Ti for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 12 Nov 2007 19:31:47 +0000 Received: (qmail 77656 invoked by uid 1007); 12 Nov 2007 19:31:28 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=testkey; d=space.net; b=voCGIDaSOdcVRPaqk+DLax1QhtGCwSKwC9I9WpbM2CX0yOhwXrlKKeZ0rv835j8E ; Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 20:31:28 +0100 From: Gert Doering To: james woodyatt Cc: IPv6 Operations Subject: Re: Problem statement, was: Re: Follow-up work on NAT-PT Message-ID: <20071112193128.GC69215@Space.Net> References: <5FCD348C-5927-4F18-A002-0E3BF21ED5F4@NLnetLabs.nl> <47110056.70400@piuha.net> <47251FBA.9030507@gmail.com> <40142B09-4FDF-46F3-8735-398BA5B8D24C@muada.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-NCC-RegID: de.space Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 9182cfff02fae4f1b6e9349e01d62f32 Hi, On Mon, Nov 12, 2007 at 11:01:56AM -0800, james woodyatt wrote: > >The problem is that there is no operational problem: IPv6 > >deployment can still generously be rounded down to 0. > Some of us would argue that's an operational *solution*, not a problem. So what's your approach to handling the "there won't be any new IPv4 addresses to distribute to customers after a not-so-far-distant point in the future"? I'm fairly serious about this - we *will* run into this, and so far, IPv6 seems to be the only solution. No matter how many rough edges it has today. Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- Total number of prefixes smaller than registry allocations: 122119 SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (89) 32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 From KelvinjadeVega@heralduk.com Mon Nov 12 14:51:04 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IrfJI-0003R4-Ni; Mon, 12 Nov 2007 14:51:04 -0500 Received: from host131-asun1.personalnet.com.py ([200.3.249.131] helo=angie) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IrfJF-0007r1-M6; Mon, 12 Nov 2007 14:51:04 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by host93225546.heralduk.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with SMTP id rj4bBJs015.187378.gK0.69t.9289761841363 for ; Mon, 12 Nov 2007 16:50:13 +0400 Message-ID: <321c501c8256d$b32b1ff0$1501a8c0@ANGIE> From: "Horace Tate" To: Cc: , =20

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    ------=_NextPart_000_321C1_01C8256D.B32B1FF0-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Nov 12 15:08:44 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IrfaO-0005Fb-04 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 12 Nov 2007 15:08:44 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IrfaI-0002rY-6S for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 12 Nov 2007 15:08:43 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IrfXA-0002fn-Pz for v6ops-data@psg.com; Mon, 12 Nov 2007 20:05:24 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [17.254.13.23] (helo=mail-out4.apple.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IrfWz-0002eC-SK for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 12 Nov 2007 20:05:19 +0000 Received: from relay11.apple.com (relay11.apple.com [17.128.113.48]) by mail-out4.apple.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80F06190606F for ; Mon, 12 Nov 2007 12:05:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay11.apple.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by relay11.apple.com (Symantec Mail Security) with ESMTP id 5ACEF28057 for ; Mon, 12 Nov 2007 12:05:13 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: 11807130-a70cdbb00000088f-7a-4738b1f8515f Received: from [17.206.23.177] (il0602a-dhcp49.apple.com [17.206.23.177]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by relay11.apple.com (Apple SCV relay) with ESMTP id AA06F28051 for ; Mon, 12 Nov 2007 12:05:12 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) In-Reply-To: <20071112193128.GC69215@Space.Net> References: <5FCD348C-5927-4F18-A002-0E3BF21ED5F4@NLnetLabs.nl> <47110056.70400@piuha.net> <47251FBA.9030507@gmail.com> <40142B09-4FDF-46F3-8735-398BA5B8D24C@muada.com> <20071112193128.GC69215@Space.Net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: james woodyatt Subject: Re: Problem statement, was: Re: Follow-up work on NAT-PT Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 12:05:10 -0800 To: IPv6 Operations X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 0ddefe323dd869ab027dbfff7eff0465 On Nov 12, 2007, at 11:31, Gert Doering wrote: > > So what's your approach to handling the "there won't be any new > IPv4 addresses to distribute to customers after a not-so-far- > distant point in the future"? Reduce, reuse, recycle. > I'm fairly serious about this - we *will* run into this, and so > far, IPv6 seems to be the only solution. No matter how many rough > edges it has today. I'm deadly derious about this too. If customers demand to use IPv4 when addresses are in short supply, then I'm sure markets (or alternative mechanisms) will find prices for exchanging used addresses at which transactions will clear. If network operators continue not deploying IPv6 services, then customer demand for IPv6 service will be met increasingly by tunnels over the existing IPv4 infrastructure between endpoint nodes. This is happening today with dual-stack nodes. The problem before us is how to make it happen with IPv6-only nodes. Some organizations are likely to deploy IPv6-only networks in the coming years for reasons mainly unrelated to IPv4 address shortages. They will almost certainly end up using some combination of SIIT and whatever follows from the work on NAT-PT as their gateway to the legacy IPv4 public internet. The less the IPv4/NAT-based ISP community knows about that, the *better*, if you ask me. If all that traffic looks to them exactly like the IPv4/NAT traffic they know and love today, all the better. It keeps them from mucking with things that don't belong to them. Administrators of those gateways between legacy IPv4 and local IPv6- only networks will probably need to care about how such gateways work, so I think V6OPS is a good place for discussions to that end. That said, I disagree with Mr. van Beijnum: it is not an *operational* problem that ISP's are not deploying IPv6 service. 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    http://www.ailandaj.com/ ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C826D2.62D1BF80-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Wed Nov 14 09:35:23 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IsJKt-0002GI-QU for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 14 Nov 2007 09:35:23 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IsJKp-0007mj-Fd for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 14 Nov 2007 09:35:23 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IsJEp-000KNq-LE for v6ops-data@psg.com; Wed, 14 Nov 2007 14:29:07 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [128.18.84.104] (helo=mailgate-internal2.sri.com) by psg.com with smtp (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IsJEC-000KIW-IE for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 14 Nov 2007 14:28:48 +0000 Received: from localhost (HELO mailgate-internal2.SRI.COM) (127.0.0.1) by mailgate-internal2.sri.com with SMTP; 14 Nov 2007 14:28:27 -0000 Received: from srimail1.sri.com ([128.18.30.11]) by mailgate-internal2.SRI.COM (SMSSMTP 4.1.11.41) with SMTP id M2007111406282704500 for ; Wed, 14 Nov 2007 06:28:27 -0800 Received: from [192.168.1.100] (nj-71-0-103-137.dyn.embarqhsd.net [71.0.103.137]) by mail.sri.com (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-6.01 (built Apr 3 2006)) with ESMTPSA id <0JRI00LW82VA0340@mail.sri.com> for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 14 Nov 2007 06:28:27 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 09:28:22 -0500 From: Ed Jankiewicz Subject: Re: Fwd: I-D Action:draft-van-beijnum-modified-nat-pt-00.txt In-reply-to: To: Iljitsch van Beijnum Cc: IPv6 Operations Message-id: <473B0606.7080000@sri.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Windows/20070728) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 0fa76816851382eb71b0a882ccdc29ac I would be in favor of hearing a discussion of this and the other alternatives put forward recently on this list. I agree that there is a problem to be solved (stateless connectivity between a host using an IPv6 address and a legacy IPv4 host or enclave) but I'm not settled on a solution yet. This may be out of place, but I offer it simply for information. I am aware of several commercial translation implementations that bear some investigation as well, one of which I had a hand in building at my previous employer (Datatek). I am not endorsing their product or any of the other products, but they are available (or soon to be) and may help with some deployment scenarios, and those who are interested may look them up: Datatek Applications (Transformer), Ambriel Technologies (AT-X series), and Silex Technology (SX-2600CV). Datatek is "essentially" SIIT with some twists, Ambriel admits to being NAT-PT, but I don't have any technical info on Silex. All are targeted at adapting the legacy IPv4 device to an IPv6-dominant network with IPv6 peers. Iljitsch van Beijnum wrote: > This is the modified NAT-PT draft that I mentioned this weekend. > > Chairs: I would like the opportunity to present this draft in > Vancouver, if possible. > > If desired I can talk about alternatives for / changes to NAT-PT in > general rather than this specific proposal. > > Iljitsch > > > Begin forwarded message: > >> From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org >> Date: 12 november 2007 14:50:02 GMT+01:00 >> To: i-d-announce@ietf.org >> Subject: I-D Action:draft-van-beijnum-modified-nat-pt-00.txt >> Reply-To: internet-drafts@ietf.org > >> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts >> directories. > >> Title : Modified Network Address Translation - Protocol >> Translation >> Author(s) : I. van Beijnum >> Filename : draft-van-beijnum-modified-nat-pt-00.txt >> Pages : 9 >> Date : 2007-11-12 > >> A smooth transition from IPv4 to IPv6 requires that either all hosts >> are upgraded to dual stack before the first hosts can become IPv6- >> only, or that there be some mechanism for IPv6-only hosts to talk to >> IPv4-only hosts. Current levels of dual stack deployment suggest >> that expecting the former within a reasonable timeframe isn't >> realistic, based on current adoption of dual stack combined with the >> latest projections for the IPv4 depletion that point to a date early >> in the next decade. 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    ------=_NextPart_000_4A354_01C8270A.C28E48C0-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Wed Nov 14 19:33:27 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IsSff-00021U-OD for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 14 Nov 2007 19:33:27 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IsSfb-0006bv-Af for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 14 Nov 2007 19:33:27 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IsSYP-00074J-On for v6ops-data@psg.com; Thu, 15 Nov 2007 00:25:57 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [192.18.98.31] (helo=brmea-mail-1.sun.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IsSXq-0006yM-BK for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 15 Nov 2007 00:25:41 +0000 Received: from jurassic.eng.sun.com ([129.146.226.31]) by brmea-mail-1.sun.com (8.13.6+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id lAF0PLph022690 for ; Thu, 15 Nov 2007 00:25:21 GMT Received: from [10.7.251.248] (punchin-nordmark.SFBay.Sun.COM [10.7.251.248]) by jurassic.eng.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id lAF0PClo184678 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 14 Nov 2007 16:25:17 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <473B91E8.5050307@sun.com> Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 16:25:12 -0800 From: Erik Nordmark User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.4 (X11/20070723) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: v6ops@ops.ietf.org Subject: [Fwd: Posting of IPR Disclosure] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 2409bba43e9c8d580670fda8b695204a Forwarded without comment. Erik -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Posting of IPR Disclosure Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 17:01:51 -0500 From: IETF Secretariat To: erik.nordmark@sun.com CC: dromasca@avaya.com, rbonica@juniper.net Dear Erik Nordmark: An IPR disclosure that pertains to your RFC entitled "Stateless IP/ICMP Translation Algorithm (SIIT)" (RFC2765) was submitted to the IETF Secretariat on 2007-11-06 and has been posted on the "IETF Page of Intellectual Property Rights Disclosures" (https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/ipr_list.cgi). The title of the IPR disclosure is "Hitachi's Statement about IPR claimed in RFC 2765." The IETF Secretariat From OrvilleapproximateBallard@canon-europe.com Wed Nov 14 21:22:30 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IsUNC-0005Xr-Nr; Wed, 14 Nov 2007 21:22:30 -0500 Received: from [89.137.124.135] (helo=s2f5a8e5920584) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IsUNB-00058n-Mp; Wed, 14 Nov 2007 21:22:30 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by host76982847.canon-europe.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with SMTP id wO5ljBbp72.970087.x9Q.J59.8561612760788 for ; Thu, 15 Nov 2007 04:21:57 -0200 Message-ID: <1218a01c8272e$5ab10a70$877c8959@s2f5a8e5920584> From: "Ervin Ballard" To: Subject: Your health Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 04:21:57 -0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_12186_01C8272E.5AB10A70" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 21bf7a2f1643ae0bf20c1e010766eb78 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_12186_01C8272E.5AB10A70 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Even if you have no erection problems Cialis would help you to make = better sex more often and to bring unimaginable plesure to her. Just = disolve half a pill under your tongue and get ready for action in 15 = minutes! The tests showed that the majority of men after taking this = medication were able to have perfect erection during 36 hours! Package Quantity Price in your local drugstore* Our price LearnMoreNow 10 tabs 20 doses $95.95 $34.19 30 tabs 60 doses $349.95 $104.66 60 tabs 120 doses $549.95 $180.15 90 tabs 180 doses $789.95 $242.06 180 tabs 360 doses $1325.95 $445.61 When you are young and stressed up… When you are aged and never give up… Cialis gives you confidence in any chance, every time. ------=_NextPart_000_12186_01C8272E.5AB10A70 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20

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    ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C8277C.48AF86F0-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Nov 15 10:29:33 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Isger-0000h5-Hs for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 15 Nov 2007 10:29:33 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Isgen-0000WF-PF for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 15 Nov 2007 10:29:33 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IsgYA-000JY6-BK for v6ops-data@psg.com; Thu, 15 Nov 2007 15:22:38 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [144.254.224.140] (helo=ams-iport-1.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IsgXa-000JV0-K4 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 15 Nov 2007 15:22:20 +0000 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.21,420,1188770400"; d="scan'208";a="157830127" Received: from ams-dkim-1.cisco.com ([144.254.224.138]) by ams-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 15 Nov 2007 16:22:01 +0100 Received: from ams-core-1.cisco.com (ams-core-1.cisco.com [144.254.224.150]) by ams-dkim-1.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id lAFFM1i3026792 for ; Thu, 15 Nov 2007 16:22:01 +0100 Received: from xbh-ams-332.emea.cisco.com (xbh-ams-332.cisco.com [144.254.231.87]) by ams-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id lAFFLgYg010180 for ; Thu, 15 Nov 2007 15:22:01 GMT Received: from xfe-ams-331.emea.cisco.com ([144.254.231.72]) by xbh-ams-332.emea.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 15 Nov 2007 16:21:52 +0100 Received: from [189.76.105.107] ([10.61.82.221]) by xfe-ams-331.emea.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 15 Nov 2007 16:21:46 +0100 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) In-Reply-To: References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <78FC32E6-E872-4E01-9A97-D5F2B87A0015@cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Fred Baker Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-bagnulo-v6ops-6man-nat64-pb-statement-00.txt Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 13:21:45 -0200 To: IETF V6OPS WG X-Pgp-Agent: GPGMail 1.1.2 (Tiger) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) X-OriginalArrivalTime: 15 Nov 2007 15:21:46.0436 (UTC) FILETIME=[3C40E840:01C8279B] X-TM-AS-Product-Ver: SMEX-8.0.0.1181-5.000.1023-15546.001 X-TM-AS-Result: No--18.850600-8.000000-1 X-TM-AS-User-Approved-Sender: No X-TM-AS-User-Blocked-Sender: No DKIM-Signature: v=0.5; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=4970; t=1195140121; x=1196004121; c=relaxed/simple; s=amsdkim1002; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=fred@cisco.com; z=From:=20Fred=20Baker=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20I-D=20ACTION=3Adraft-bagnulo-v6ops-6man-nat64-pb-stat ement-00.txt=20 |Sender:=20; bh=0Wm+siF4qw0UAbxBNfttfxsbyIl6UwAMJP5T8I9Njjw=; b=NMWXW5jwcvxoitZ1yyN5Z0SY46Mnksp3toQoiEMsM56FjuDtWHzsVvh2y3+hXdUSdmWSt37l sk8VRxR+VpDe3RKWCYS7rsdkhNXFe+xpgSW5MEao6RCckdZ/aOP7C3ym; Authentication-Results: ams-dkim-1; header.From=fred@cisco.com; dkim=pass (s ig from cisco.com/amsdkim1002 verified; ); Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: f49c97ce49302a02285a2d36a99eef8c -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 - -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 > De: marcelo bagnulo braun > Fecha: 15 de noviembre de 2007 12:47:05 GMT+01:00 > Para: v6ops@ops.ietf.org > Asunto: Fwd: I-D ACTION:draft-bagnulo-v6ops-6man-nat64-pb- > statement-00.txt > > > > Hi all, > > i have submitted the attached draft, which goal is basically try to > define which are the requirements and the constraints of a design > of an IPv6 - IPv4 translator. > > the goal is to foster discussion on the nat64 solution space > > comments are welcome > > regards, marcelo > > > > Inicio del mensaje reenviado: > >> De: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org >> Fecha: 13 de noviembre de 2007 20:15:01 GMT+01:00 >> Para: i-d-announce@ietf.org >> Asunto: I-D ACTION:draft-bagnulo-v6ops-6man-nat64-pb-statement-00.txt >> Responder a: internet-drafts@ietf.org >> >> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts >> directories. >> >> >> Title : IPv6 - IPv4 Translators (NAT64) - Problem Statement and >> Analysis >> Author(s) : M. Bagnulo >> Filename : draft-bagnulo-v6ops-6man-nat64-pb-statement-00.txt >> Pages : 9 >> Date : 2007-11-13 >> >> >> RFC 4966 published on July 2007 deprecates the NAT-PT tool, the >> mechanism defined by the IETF to enable communications between >> IPv4 >> only nodes with IPv6 only nodes, letting the dual-stack >> approach as >> the preferred mechanism to enable nodes to be able to communicate >> with v6 and v4 nodes. However, there are several reasons why the >> dual stack approach may not be adequate for a number of scenarios. >> For once, the dual-stack approach imposes the management of two >> networks in a site, the v6 one and the v4 one, increasing the >> costs >> of using IPv6. In addition, as IPv4 public address space is >> depleted, it will no longer possible to access to IPv4 public >> addresses, making dual stack nodes even less attractive. It is >> then >> considered necessary to explore alternative mechanisms that enable >> communication of v6 nodes and v4 nodes, other than the deprecated >> NAT-PT. In order to do that, the first that is needed is to >> understand what capabilities are required and what constrains >> affect >> the design space. The goal of this document is to state the >> different capabilities that can be required to IPv4 - IPv6 >> translators (hereafter called NAT64) and the constraints that >> affect >> the solution space. >> >> >> A URL for this Internet-Draft is: >> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-bagnulo-v6ops-6man-nat64- >> pb-statement-00.txt >> >> To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to >> i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the >> body of >> the message. >> You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D- >> announce >> to change your subscription settings. >> >> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the >> username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After >> logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then >> "get draft-bagnulo-v6ops-6man-nat64-pb-statement-00.txt". >> >> A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in >> http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html >> or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt >> >> Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. >> >> Send a message to: >> mailserv@ietf.org. >> In the body type: >> "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-bagnulo-v6ops-6man-nat64-pb- >> statement-00.txt". >> >> NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in >> MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this >> feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" >> command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or >> a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers >> exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with >> "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split >> up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on >> how to manipulate these messages. >> >> Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader >> implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the >> Internet-Draft. >> Content-Type: text/plain >> Content-ID: <2007-11-13132721.I-D@ietf.org> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> I-D-Announce mailing list >> I-D-Announce@ietf.org >> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce > > - -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iD8DBQFHPGOKbjEdbHIsm0MRArKCAKDOWS8cp4Hl/1ehhp5tRqJUIsJ/tgCg0RvO Z5G6nJ/usxqNHntV14Za6+Q= =QmAI - -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iD8DBQFHPGQJbjEdbHIsm0MRAj/PAKCdOiKICk17TIfPuB4iHViOhfRC4wCeOJ0s K+FvWy13FUnqsv9RUsEOuSU= =2snC -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From WalterdecorateRogers@lyricsfreak.com Thu Nov 15 10:50:35 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IsgzD-00019E-5k; Thu, 15 Nov 2007 10:50:35 -0500 Received: from pool-72-70-201-23.sctnpa.east.verizon.net ([72.70.201.23] helo=office.myhome.westell.com) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IsgzC-0001x7-Qf; Thu, 15 Nov 2007 10:50:35 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by host04289552.lyricsfreak.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with SMTP id pSrcNw8M94.841082.boP.iGY.9084094476200 for ; Thu, 15 Nov 2007 10:50:01 +0500 Message-ID: <3b85301c8279f$3c751ad0$2c01a8c0@office> From: "Roger Morris" To: Subject: Hi Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 10:50:01 +0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_3B84F_01C8279F.3C751AD0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 21bf7a2f1643ae0bf20c1e010766eb78 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_3B84F_01C8279F.3C751AD0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Even if you have no erection problems Cialis would help you to make = better sex more often and to bring unimaginable plesure to her. 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    ------=_NextPart_000_224C_01C827A6.F18C5760-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Nov 15 12:33:21 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Isiaf-0007av-Aq for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 15 Nov 2007 12:33:21 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Isiab-0007W2-HU for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 15 Nov 2007 12:33:21 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IsiXO-0003PO-4y for v6ops-data@psg.com; Thu, 15 Nov 2007 17:29:58 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [193.94.160.1] (helo=netcore.fi) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IsiXD-0003O8-2w for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 15 Nov 2007 17:29:52 +0000 Received: from netcore.fi (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by netcore.fi (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id lAFHTeeX001515; Thu, 15 Nov 2007 19:29:40 +0200 Received: from localhost (pekkas@localhost) by netcore.fi (8.13.8/8.13.8/Submit) with ESMTP id lAFHTelJ001512; Thu, 15 Nov 2007 19:29:40 +0200 Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 19:29:40 +0200 (EET) From: Pekka Savola To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?R=E9mi_Despr=E9s?= cc: v6ops Subject: Re: terminology proposal: NAT+PT (or NAT64 ?) In-Reply-To: <473C7CA4.8010107@wanadoo.fr> Message-ID: References: <473B2530.1010103@wanadoo.fr> <473B5E7E.7020408@cs.utk.edu> <473BF6F6.5090507@wanadoo.fr> <473BF9AA.6050305@cs.utk.edu> <473C0E70.3090405@wanadoo.fr> <473C58B1.9020509@cs.utk.edu> <473C6AE4.7010409@wanadoo.fr> <473C772B.2070002@wanadoo.fr> <473C7CA4.8010107@wanadoo.fr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: MULTIPART/MIXED; BOUNDARY="1589707168-1562228132-1195147780=:1465" X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.91.2/4796/Thu Nov 15 02:09:59 2007 on otso.netcore.fi X-Virus-Status: Clean Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 9182cfff02fae4f1b6e9349e01d62f32 This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. --1589707168-1562228132-1195147780=:1465 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT On Thu, 15 Nov 2007, Rémi Després wrote: > > unicast RPF just allows advertised prefixes, and I suspect in the > > model you have in mind, the mapped addresses would not be advertised > > in routing. > The full mapped addresses would of course not be routed (128 bits long). > But their 0/64 prefix would be. Do you have a more specific idea how this would work? How do you prevent folks who advertise ::/64 from sending packets from someone else's source address? -- Pekka Savola "You each name yourselves king, yet the Netcore Oy kingdom bleeds." Systems. Networks. Security. -- George R.R. Martin: A Clash of Kings --1589707168-1562228132-1195147780=:1465-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Nov 15 12:57:55 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IsiyR-0003Cr-00 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 15 Nov 2007 12:57:55 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IsiyN-00009w-Kl for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 15 Nov 2007 12:57:54 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IsiwZ-0005jU-1b for v6ops-data@psg.com; Thu, 15 Nov 2007 17:55:59 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE, USER_IN_ALL_SPAM_TO autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [171.71.176.72] (helo=sj-iport-3.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Isiw4-0005dc-5Q for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 15 Nov 2007 17:55:43 +0000 Received: from sj-dkim-3.cisco.com ([171.71.179.195]) by sj-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP; 15 Nov 2007 09:55:22 -0800 Received: from sj-core-1.cisco.com (sj-core-1.cisco.com [171.71.177.237]) by sj-dkim-3.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id lAFHtLvf019031; Thu, 15 Nov 2007 09:55:21 -0800 Received: from dwingwxp01 ([10.32.240.196]) by sj-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id lAFHtKCX009859; Thu, 15 Nov 2007 17:55:21 GMT From: "Dan Wing" To: "'Hesham Soliman'" , "'IPv6 Operations'" Cc: References: Subject: RE: Firewall control Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 09:55:21 -0800 Message-ID: <0a8401c827b0$b173e8f0$c4f0200a@cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 Thread-Index: AcgmdNhMdi3uu494QJ20lQZaYVwEXgBOA0pQ DKIM-Signature: v=0.5; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=1627; t=1195149321; x=1196013321; c=relaxed/simple; s=sjdkim3002; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=dwing@cisco.com; z=From:=20=22Dan=20Wing=22=20 |Subject:=20RE=3A=20Firewall=20control |Sender:=20; bh=V6ceaP79O8JF7JJtNZxB/g1r5BSDW/xwbFzia5Fe8WU=; b=n6K+bSED3bZ9cCWNMWkMwkgOQammDni3TLzefexUwsB0S66FGAV1HiSZpXr/9yex+VnRQfQQ B5R6U95kv1FKiUZCm0KpMsE43DgT6WFFh4931/YPqk6WxwaGotDVW/ug; Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-3; header.From=dwing@cisco.com; dkim=pass (s ig from cisco.com/sjdkim3002 verified; ); Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 52e1467c2184c31006318542db5614d5 (CC'ing BEHAVE) On v6ops, Hesham Soliman wrote: > We've submitted the draft below. I requested a slot from Fred > to discuss this in Vancouver. I look forward to your input on > this. We've received some comments from Dan Wing already about > some aspects of the draft which are underspecified or can be > improved. I have read both draft-soliman-firewall-control-00.txt and (previously) James Woodyatt's ALD, draft-woodyatt-ald-01.txt. At the BEHAVE working group meeting at IETF69 in Chicago, James presented both v6ops-cpe-simple-security and ALD. Looking at the v6ops minutes, it appears James did not present ALD to v6ops in Chicago but he did present v6ops-cpe-simple-security. There is a lot of similarity between soliman-firewall-control and woodyatt-ald. As there are two proposals that provide a similar function, it seems there is some community interest in creating a v6 protocol to allow hosts to talk to v6 firewalls. It would be to everyone's advantage to have one solution, unless we 'want to see the desert bloom' with 3-4 non-interoperable standards like happened with v4 NATs. The BEHAVE WG is only chartered for v4 NATs/NAPTs, but I have invited Hesham to present soliman-firewall-control because BEHAVE working group members are well-versed in the difficulties of simple CPE firewalling (a side-effect of v4 NAPTs), and I expect can provide constructive comments on the document. I expect there may be sufficient interest in this topic to request a BoF in Philadelphia, and have an informal meeting with interested parties in Vancouver. 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    <= /HTML> ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C827CB.9D4ECA50-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Nov 15 17:53:44 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Isnai-0004XW-Gb for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 15 Nov 2007 17:53:44 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Isnaf-0001od-2u for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 15 Nov 2007 17:53:44 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IsnVI-0005rZ-6V for v6ops-data@psg.com; Thu, 15 Nov 2007 22:48:08 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [160.36.56.39] (helo=shu.cs.utk.edu) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IsnV7-0005qz-BW for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 15 Nov 2007 22:48:02 +0000 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by shu.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBD7F1EE357; Thu, 15 Nov 2007 17:47:54 -0500 (EST) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new with ClamAV and SpamAssasin at cs.utk.edu Received: from shu.cs.utk.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (bes.cs.utk.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gKWm2YzuLKhW; Thu, 15 Nov 2007 17:47:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from lust.indecency.org (user-119b1dm.biz.mindspring.com [66.149.133.182]) by shu.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97ECD1EE36B; Thu, 15 Nov 2007 17:47:51 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <473CCC96.6090209@cs.utk.edu> Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 17:47:50 -0500 From: Keith Moore User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Macintosh/20071031) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?R=E9mi_Despr=E9s?= CC: v6ops , Pekka Savola Subject: Re: terminology proposal: NAT+PT (or NAT64 ?) References: <473B2530.1010103@wanadoo.fr> <473B5E7E.7020408@cs.utk.edu> <473BF6F6.5090507@wanadoo.fr> <473BF9AA.6050305@cs.utk.edu> <473C0E70.3090405@wanadoo.fr> <473C58B1.9020509@cs.utk.edu> <473C6AE4.7010409@wanadoo.fr> <473C6F4E.9050906@cs.utk.edu> <473C75CE.2010606@wanadoo.fr> <473C88F8.8030300@cs.utk.edu> <473CB5E3.1080103@wanadoo.fr> In-Reply-To: <473CB5E3.1080103@wanadoo.fr> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.5 OpenPGP: id=E1473978 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 93238566e09e6e262849b4f805833007 Rémi Després wrote: > Keith Moore wrote : > > one use case for v4 NATs is mapping between two networks using the > same range of RFC 1918 addresses. in those cases addresses get > substituted in both directions. > > Substitution of both addresses seems strange to me, at least in the > context of IETF, but I am interested in learning aboiut it. > Would you have a reference where this usage is documented? I've never seen anything published about it, I've only heard of it actually being used. Of course, it's not "in the context of IETF" as the people who use such setups are interested in solving their immediate problems rather than in what makes sense for the whole Internet. > In any case, this is different from the NAT-64 case. I don't know what you mean by NAT-64, but be assured that translations between v4 and v6 necessarily involve address substitution in both directions. > The IPv6 prefix to be used, when an IPv4 source address has to be > converted into an IPv6 address, is the mapped addres prefix ::FFFF/36. that's simply not acceptable. Keith From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Nov 15 19:15:58 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IsosI-0004Zx-Dr for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 15 Nov 2007 19:15:58 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IsosF-000881-05 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 15 Nov 2007 19:15:58 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Isoo5-000Dvz-FC for v6ops-data@psg.com; Fri, 16 Nov 2007 00:11:37 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.0 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [144.140.82.155] (helo=omta03ps.mx.bigpond.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IsonD-000Dr1-8c for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 16 Nov 2007 00:11:02 +0000 Received: from oaamta04ps.mx.bigpond.com ([124.190.106.219]) by omta03ps.mx.bigpond.com with ESMTP id <20071116001039.OMLL25130.omta03ps.mx.bigpond.com@oaamta04ps.mx.bigpond.com> for ; Fri, 16 Nov 2007 00:10:39 +0000 Received: from PC20005 ([124.190.106.219]) by oaamta04ps.mx.bigpond.com with ESMTP id <20071116001038.WFXD9364.oaamta04ps.mx.bigpond.com@PC20005>; Fri, 16 Nov 2007 00:10:38 +0000 From: "Hesham Soliman" To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?'R=E9mi_Denis-Courmont'?= , "'IPv6 Operations'" Cc: "'james woodyatt'" Subject: RE: Firewall control Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 11:10:25 +1000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 x-mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 In-Reply-To: <200711152125.38695.rdenis@simphalempin.com> Thread-Index: AcgnvVWwp89pSjXZTWy1DSFgIoVJawAL5DkA Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 244a2fd369eaf00ce6820a760a3de2e8 > > We've submitted the draft below. I requested a slot from=20 > Fred to discuss > > this in Vancouver. I look forward to your input on this. >=20 > I really think, that for any practical matter, right to=20 > control the firewall=20 > should be granted if: > - you are behind the firewall and "own" the IP address, > - the request is allowed by local firewall policy. =3D> Agreed. >=20 > I really question the point of asymetric cryptography here.=20 > It is going to be=20 > a pain to deploy. And lets face it, neither the end device,=20 > nor the firewall=20 > want to do public key operation. It's not exactly "cheap" in=20 > term of CPU. =3D> Asymetric crypto is only needed for one message exchange. If it is = an issue for future exchanges one can always derive a secret key for those = exchanges. But we don't really have evidence (yet) that this is a huge issue. If it = is an issue, it would be easy to avoid it after the initial authentication/authorisation step. >=20 > Easy to deploy, safe and operational security: use simple=20 > return-path check,=20 > with a one-time token challenge (I suppose that's the cookie=20 > option you have=20 > already there). >=20 >=20 > Also, I doubt the assumption of DHCP is right. At least, in=20 > the typical v6cpe=20 > case, I don't quite expect alls routers and all clients to=20 > have it - many=20 > will stick to ND-based autoconf. =3D> We did have an RA option there but never had time to add it. Also, = the authors at the time discussed it and we thought that so far DHCP is the choice for configuring services, so we stuck with that. However, I think = if the community prefers an RA option then this wouldn't be a big hurdle. = But I do think it's important to keep DHCP as an option. Hesham >=20 > --=20 > R=E9mi Denis-Courmont > http://www.remlab.net/ >=20 From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Nov 15 19:26:51 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Isp2p-0007As-EU for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 15 Nov 2007 19:26:51 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Isp2l-0000zc-NT for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 15 Nov 2007 19:26:51 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Isp1T-000F2M-Fz for v6ops-data@psg.com; Fri, 16 Nov 2007 00:25:27 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.2 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE, USER_IN_ALL_SPAM_TO autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [144.140.82.153] (helo=omta01ps.mx.bigpond.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Isp1I-000F13-7b for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 16 Nov 2007 00:25:22 +0000 Received: from oaamta07ps.mx.bigpond.com ([124.190.106.219]) by omta01ps.mx.bigpond.com with ESMTP id <20071116002512.YFBT16290.omta01ps.mx.bigpond.com@oaamta07ps.mx.bigpond.com> for ; Fri, 16 Nov 2007 00:25:12 +0000 Received: from PC20005 ([124.190.106.219]) by oaamta07ps.mx.bigpond.com with ESMTP id <20071116002512.WSCM7441.oaamta07ps.mx.bigpond.com@PC20005>; Fri, 16 Nov 2007 00:25:12 +0000 From: "Hesham Soliman" To: "'Melinda Shore'" , "'Hannes Tschofenig'" , "'Dan Wing'" , Cc: Subject: RE: [BEHAVE] RE: Firewall control Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 11:24:58 +1000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 x-mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 In-Reply-To: Thread-Index: Acgnt6yz60lo+pOqEdy9sQAKleNSdAANuYhA Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: c1c65599517f9ac32519d043c37c5336 > wrote: > > Another one would be: "Why do the IPv4 solutions don't > work given that they > > are designed with extensibility in mind?" > > The only work I saw the Soliman draft reference was NSIS, which > uses a different signaling model. There's been a lot more work > done closer to the client-server model, which is what they're > proposing also, and I gather that they're not familiar with it. => I would appreciate a link to something that I can read about similar proposals in this area. I'm aware of James' work and probably should have added it to the references but unintentionally didn't. > > I think that you're closer to right about what the real question > is. Nearly any solution to any problem introduces new problems, > and I think in general the new problems introduced by both path- > coupled and path-decoupled middlebox signaling are sufficiently > intractible that we either end up resisting doing them at all or > choose instead to go with a bunch of hacked-up messy stuff that's > very situational. => I find it difficult to discuss a wide range of problems in different deployments on such generic level. Of course every solution introduces new problems but that is never a reason to dismiss a solution IMHO. There is also a wide range of firewall deployment scenarios as you know and while I can think of some that don't need this approach, others definitely do. So I agree with one aspect of Hannes question, which is: what was the problem with other proposals. Lets discuss that. The first part of the question is not really useful because it doesn't tell us what those solutions are that we're supposed to compare with. Hesham > > I realize that the IETF doesn't do architecture but it seems to > me that somehow this bigger question needs to be handled before > putting effort into a different version of the same old thing. > > Melinda > From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Nov 15 20:06:22 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ispf4-00059h-Fi for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 15 Nov 2007 20:06:22 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ispf0-0005uk-TN for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 15 Nov 2007 20:06:22 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ispbu-000IC2-Mb for v6ops-data@psg.com; Fri, 16 Nov 2007 01:03:06 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE, USER_IN_ALL_SPAM_TO autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [171.71.176.117] (helo=sj-iport-6.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IspbL-000I8O-4o for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 16 Nov 2007 01:02:50 +0000 Received: from sj-dkim-1.cisco.com ([171.71.179.21]) by sj-iport-6.cisco.com with ESMTP; 15 Nov 2007 17:02:30 -0800 Received: from sj-core-2.cisco.com (sj-core-2.cisco.com [171.71.177.254]) by sj-dkim-1.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id lAG12Utj012492; Thu, 15 Nov 2007 17:02:30 -0800 Received: from dwingwxp01 ([10.32.240.196]) by sj-core-2.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id lAG12SEA024743; Fri, 16 Nov 2007 01:02:28 GMT From: "Dan Wing" To: "'Hesham Soliman'" , "'Melinda Shore'" , "'Hannes Tschofenig'" , Cc: References: Subject: RE: [BEHAVE] RE: Firewall control Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 17:02:28 -0800 Message-ID: <042a01c827ec$5cf3dd30$c4f0200a@cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Thread-Index: Acgnt6yz60lo+pOqEdy9sQAKleNSdAANuYhAAADHB3A= X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 In-Reply-To: DKIM-Signature: v=0.5; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=2842; t=1195174950; x=1196038950; c=relaxed/simple; s=sjdkim1004; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=dwing@cisco.com; z=From:=20=22Dan=20Wing=22=20 |Subject:=20RE=3A=20[BEHAVE]=20RE=3A=20Firewall=20control |Sender:=20; bh=d5Y+RLnMLLaOFh1X+zNU3/SXrQS+X9VbKuDpOwhRpJE=; b=JVFpWEFfRovJIRa0JjWJPSVdqYy8BNLlOmba/EDKqrs7cUe81ylg67pOYtuqkCN6gfwqmdsk FN8iWV/i5Zhkw82cZZllLCDpTiFRO/idfAhLe9txwtHLTF5IItdBr99LI3YgSZIQFZBYEr5umN m9v5izzSYsj1Y4WHNMuHx9Fec=; Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-1; header.From=dwing@cisco.com; dkim=pass (s ig from cisco.com/sjdkim1004 verified; ); Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: f60d0f7806b0c40781eee6b9cd0b2135 > > wrote: > > > Another one would be: "Why do the IPv4 solutions don't > > work given that they > > > are designed with extensibility in mind?" > > > > The only work I saw the Soliman draft reference was NSIS, which > > uses a different signaling model. There's been a lot more work > > done closer to the client-server model, which is what they're > > proposing also, and I gather that they're not familiar with it. > > => I would appreciate a link to something that I can read > about similar proposals in this area. I'm aware of James' work > and probably should have added it to the references but > unintentionally didn't. draft-eggert-middlebox-control-survey-01.txt surveys most of the efforts around NAT (and firewall) control including NAT-PMP, NSIS NATFW NSLP, UPnP IGD, and James Woodyatt's ALD. There are placeholders for MIDCOM, RSIP, STUN Control, NLS, AFWC, and RSIP. > > I think that you're closer to right about what the real question > > is. Nearly any solution to any problem introduces new problems, > > and I think in general the new problems introduced by both path- > > coupled and path-decoupled middlebox signaling are sufficiently > > intractible that we either end up resisting doing them at all or > > choose instead to go with a bunch of hacked-up messy stuff that's > > very situational. > > => I find it difficult to discuss a wide range of problems in > different deployments on such generic level. Of course every > solution introduces new problems but that is never a reason to > dismiss a solution IMHO. There is also a wide range of > firewall deployment scenarios as you know and while I > can think of some that don't need this approach, others > definitely do. > > So I agree with one aspect of Hannes question, which is: what was the > problem with other proposals. Lets discuss that. draft-eggert-middlebox-control-survey-01.txt describes them, but doesn't get into what's wrong with them. The original SAFE BoF request hits on a few things that are wrong (an updated description of the SAFE BoF will be available shortly, but here was the earlier version): http://www.employees.org/safe/bof-request.html Some of those might be applicable to v6 incarnations of those protocols, too; I haven't thought about that aspect enough to comment intelligently. -d > The first part of the > question is not really useful because it doesn't tell us what those > solutions are that we're supposed to compare with. > > Hesham > > > > > I realize that the IETF doesn't do architecture but it seems to > > me that somehow this bigger question needs to be handled before > > putting effort into a different version of the same old thing. > > > > Melinda > > From NellieliverwortArthur@askmen.com Thu Nov 15 20:37:08 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Isq8q-0002LC-5A; Thu, 15 Nov 2007 20:37:08 -0500 Received: from pool-71-127-201-142.nwrknj.east.verizon.net ([71.127.201.142] helo=chrisaad6d62cf.myhome.westell.com) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Isq8p-00038g-Hz; Thu, 15 Nov 2007 20:37:08 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by host71651036.askmen.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with SMTP id Kt58iIzT77.910498.KkF.4Mk.6993010329854 for ; Thu, 15 Nov 2007 20:36:35 +0500 Message-ID: <0c3101c827f1$2e614f70$2d01a8c0@chrisaad6d62cf> From: "Tanya Hurt" To: Subject: Hi Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 20:36:35 +0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0C2D_01C827F1.2E614F70" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 21bf7a2f1643ae0bf20c1e010766eb78 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0C2D_01C827F1.2E614F70 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Even if you have no erection problems Cialis would help you to make = better sex more often and to bring unimaginable plesure to her. 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    ------=_NextPart_000_2C55_01C8285F.C0391630-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Nov 16 10:06:06 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1It2lh-0003Np-Vs for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 16 Nov 2007 10:06:05 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1It2le-0001Gb-Hk for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 16 Nov 2007 10:06:05 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1It2eV-0003wr-3y for v6ops-data@psg.com; Fri, 16 Nov 2007 14:58:39 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.2 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE, USER_IN_ALL_SPAM_TO autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [144.140.83.156] (helo=omta04ps.mx.bigpond.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1It2dr-0003st-Jt for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 16 Nov 2007 14:58:22 +0000 Received: from oaamta03ps.mx.bigpond.com ([124.190.106.219]) by omta04ps.mx.bigpond.com with ESMTP id <20071116145752.JBIL22884.omta04ps.mx.bigpond.com@oaamta03ps.mx.bigpond.com> for ; Fri, 16 Nov 2007 14:57:52 +0000 Received: from PC20005 ([124.190.106.219]) by oaamta03ps.mx.bigpond.com with ESMTP id <20071116145752.EVIT12832.oaamta03ps.mx.bigpond.com@PC20005>; Fri, 16 Nov 2007 14:57:52 +0000 From: "Hesham Soliman" To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?'R=E9mi_Denis-Courmont'?= , , Cc: "'Dan Wing'" Subject: RE: [BEHAVE] RE: Firewall control Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 01:57:40 +1000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 x-mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 In-Reply-To: <200711161005.14996.remi.denis-courmont@nokia.com> Thread-Index: AcgoKK8BFBeKevH4RDSrrVRcRWbepQAQJBSQ Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 9466e0365fc95844abaf7c3f15a05c7d > > Another one would be: "Why do the IPv4 solutions don't=20 > work given that they > > are designed with extensibility in mind?" >=20 > Actually, they don't really work all that well (UPnP IGD,=20 > NAT-PMP, STUN=20 > control). These "pragmatic" solutions to IPv4 firewall=20 > control are heavily=20 > biased toward NAT traversal. =3D> That's exactly right. A lot of this is inherited from the FW =3D=3D = NAT world.=20 Hesham >=20 > --=20 > R=E9mi Denis-Courmont >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Behave mailing list > Behave@ietf.org > https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/behave >=20 From RosemarybrotherhoodHinkle@switchboard.com Fri Nov 16 13:07:02 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1It5ao-0000IP-1C; Fri, 16 Nov 2007 13:07:02 -0500 Received: from 47-87-223-201.adsl.terra.cl ([201.223.87.47] helo=mi194cfffded4f.belkin) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1It5an-0002ux-6W; Fri, 16 Nov 2007 13:07:01 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by host70705015.switchboard.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with SMTP id LMTqWrbk06.041442.Lo8.MCa.0615881984874 for ; Fri, 16 Nov 2007 15:06:26 +0400 Message-ID: <1ef5b01c8287b$7b8e2220$0302a8c0@mi194cfffded4f> From: "Terri Hendrickson" To: Cc: Subject: Your family Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 15:06:26 +0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_1EF57_01C8287B.7B8E2220" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.3790.2663 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.3790.2757 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d16ce744298aacf98517bc7c108bd198 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_1EF57_01C8287B.7B8E2220 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Even if you have no erection problems Cialis would help you to make = better sex more often and to bring unimaginable plesure to her. Just = disolve half a pill under your tongue and get ready for action in 15 = minutes! The tests showed that the majority of men after taking this = medication were able to have perfect erection during 36 hours! Package Quantity Price in your local drugstore* Our price LearnMoreNow 10 tabs 20 doses $95.95 $34.19 30 tabs 60 doses $349.95 $104.66 60 tabs 120 doses $549.95 $180.15 90 tabs 180 doses $789.95 $242.06 180 tabs 360 doses $1325.95 $445.61 When you are young and stressed up… When you are aged and never give up… Cialis gives you confidence in any chance, every time. ------=_NextPart_000_1EF57_01C8287B.7B8E2220 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20

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    ------=_NextPart_000_231DE_01C828A7.BBA8F200-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Nov 16 19:28:01 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ItBXV-0007Kn-DN for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 16 Nov 2007 19:28:01 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ItBXS-0008Hw-0p for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 16 Nov 2007 19:28:01 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1ItBPe-0003SE-KD for v6ops-data@psg.com; Sat, 17 Nov 2007 00:19:54 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.3 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE, USER_IN_ALL_SPAM_TO autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [144.140.83.156] (helo=omta04ps.mx.bigpond.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1ItBPR-0003RP-6D for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Sat, 17 Nov 2007 00:19:48 +0000 Received: from oaamta08ps.mx.bigpond.com ([124.190.106.219]) by omta04ps.mx.bigpond.com with ESMTP id <20071117001937.OMSX22884.omta04ps.mx.bigpond.com@oaamta08ps.mx.bigpond.com> for ; Sat, 17 Nov 2007 00:19:37 +0000 Received: from PC20005 ([124.190.106.219]) by oaamta08ps.mx.bigpond.com with ESMTP id <20071117001936.HQAR2178.oaamta08ps.mx.bigpond.com@PC20005>; Sat, 17 Nov 2007 00:19:36 +0000 From: "Hesham Soliman" To: "'Melinda Shore'" , =?iso-8859-1?Q?'R_=E9_mi_Denis-Courmont'?= Cc: , , "'Dan Wing'" , Subject: RE: [BEHAVE] RE: Firewall control Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2007 11:19:23 +1000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 x-mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 In-Reply-To: Thread-Index: AcgoZjFcb6V8UpRZEdyySgAKleNSdAAUO3MQ Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 7baded97d9887f7a0c7e8a33c2e3ea1b > > A firewall that has an "advanced" policy such as what > you'll find in a typical > > corporate network most certainly does not want to be > controlled anyway. > > Back when we were trying to figure out what to call this work there > was a strong "suggestion" from Scott Bradner to call it "middlebox > communication" because we didn't want to imply that the endpoint or > its proxy was actually going to be controlling anything. The problem > here isn't to allow applications to open pinholes on firewalls, but > rather for applications to request these network resources, give the > network/firewall sufficient information to say "yes" or "no," and > give the network a mechanism to communicate its decision back to the > endpoint. > > What you describe as a "stateful" firewall actually behaves rather > like a NAT, and as you imply is missing a more granular policy > component. => I agree with this analysis but I don't think there is an issue with missing policies. By decoupling the policy entity from the firewall you let that decision be made in the PDP and simply gets "told" to the FW. There are many architectures, especially in cellular networks, where this model makes a lot of sense, especially when you consider that all the knowledge needed to authorise the pinhhole is known at the PDP. I think the trickiest part with something like this is building the right APIs for applications to make such requests. I guess that's what you are saying above and I agree with that. But of course this is not the only scenario where such API is needed, QoS signaling is another example where this is needed. 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This draft is a work item of the IPv6 Operations Working Group of the IETF. Title : Teredo Security Concerns Author(s) : J. Hoagland, S. Krishnan Filename : draft-ietf-v6ops-teredo-security-concerns-01.txt Pages : 20 Date : 2007-11-16 Additional security concerns with Teredo are documented, beyond what is in RFC 4380. This is based on an independent analysis of Teredo's security implications. The primary intent of this document is to raise the awareness regarding the security issues in Teredo as deployed today. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-v6ops-teredo-security-concerns-01.txt To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce to change your subscription settings. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-ietf-v6ops-teredo-security-concerns-01.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-v6ops-teredo-security-concerns-01.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. 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    http://www.enharris.com/ ------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C82A01.7D228F90-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Sun Nov 18 14:41:35 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Itq1P-0003hc-Aj for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 18 Nov 2007 14:41:35 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Itq1L-0005TM-W7 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 18 Nov 2007 14:41:35 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Itpt4-000EBs-PZ for v6ops-data@psg.com; Sun, 18 Nov 2007 19:32:58 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.2 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RCVD_BAD_ID, RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [163.117.176.132] (helo=smtp.uc3m.es) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Itpst-000EAj-2B for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Sun, 18 Nov 2007 19:32:52 +0000 Received: from [192.168.1.129] (14.45.217.87.dynamic.jazztel.es [87.217.45.14])(using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits))(No client certificate requested)by smtp.uc3m.es (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72387245857;Sun, 18 Nov 2007 20:32:37 +0100 (CET) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: marcelo bagnulo braun Subject: question about draft-durand-v6ops-natv4v6v4-00 Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 20:32:30 +0100 To: Alain Durand X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) X-imss-version: 2.049 X-imss-result: Passed X-imss-scanInfo: M:B L:E SM:2 X-imss-tmaseResult: TT:1 TS:-3.8251 TC:1F TRN:16 TV:5.0.1023(15554.000) X-imss-scores: Clean:100.00000 C:0 M:0 S:0 R:0 X-imss-settings: Baseline:1 C:1 M:1 S:1 R:1 (0.0000 0.0000) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Scan-Signature: 8abaac9e10c826e8252866cbe6766464 Hi Alain, in you draft in section 4.2 you state that: The first drawback is that some applications may have a more difficult time going through two levels of NAT. Can you point some examples for this case? Then in section 4.3 you state that: The implications of this second level of translation is very similar to those in the model above of a double IPv4->IPv4->IPv4 translation. There were two concerns in the previous case, the applications that can fail more when there are two levels of nat than when ther is one level of nat and that a big provider rfc1918 addrsses may not be enough. But the concern of running out of RFC 1918 addrsses for big providers does not exists when using IPv6 in the internal netwrok of the provider, so there is only the problem with the apps thatfail more when there is a single level of nat than when there is 2 levels of nat, right? Do you think that current nat traversal techniques would not work properly if multiple levels of nats need to b traversed? Regards, marcelo From harm-Laugherty@ttyfc.co.uk Sun Nov 18 14:46:01 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Itq5g-0005wh-TH for v6ops-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 18 Nov 2007 14:46:00 -0500 Received: from catv-56658d95.catv.broadband.hu ([86.101.141.149]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Itq5g-0001mV-9k for v6ops-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 18 Nov 2007 14:46:00 -0500 Received: from pc ([161.182.21.12] helo=pc) by catv-56658d95.catv.broadband.hu ( sendmail 8.13.3/8.13.1) with esmtpa id 1HDOKh-000GJK-IA for v6ops-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 18 Nov 2007 20:46:32 +0100 Message-ID: <000201c82a1b$a345bfc0$958d6556@pc> From: "harm Laugherty" To: Subject: nerahnew Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 20:45:57 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0007_01C82A24.050A27C0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 4.5 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: e5ba305d0e64821bf3d8bc5d3bb07228 ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C82A24.050A27C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I love him to death but our sex life sucked Duy Yoder http://fearsera.com/ ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C82A24.050A27C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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(v3.0) Educational Reply-To: dg@niigata-life.com X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <345861510.97437207478844@niigata-life.com> To: v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: WorldwideYourHealthYourHealthWorldwideShipping MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 2.7 (++) X-Scan-Signature: bb8eae9af85e4fcfe76f325e38493bf4 mayonce . com From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Nov 19 04:21:29 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iu2or-0000AO-LV for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 19 Nov 2007 04:21:29 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iu2oo-0003km-BZ for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 19 Nov 2007 04:21:29 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Iu2jC-0003nL-IJ for v6ops-data@psg.com; Mon, 19 Nov 2007 09:15:38 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [83.149.65.1] (helo=sequoia.muada.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Iu2iz-0003m6-Oa for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 19 Nov 2007 09:15:32 +0000 Received: from [IPv6:2001:720:410:1001:21b:63ff:fe92:9fbb] ([IPv6:2001:720:410:1001:21b:63ff:fe92:9fbb]) (authenticated bits=0) by sequoia.muada.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id lAJ9FABU083207 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Mon, 19 Nov 2007 10:15:11 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from iljitsch@muada.com) Cc: Alain Durand , v6ops@ops.ietf.org Message-Id: From: Iljitsch van Beijnum To: marcelo bagnulo braun In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v915) Subject: Re: question about draft-durand-v6ops-natv4v6v4-00 Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 10:15:15 +0100 References: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.915) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 79899194edc4f33a41f49410777972f8 On 18 nov 2007, at 20:32, marcelo bagnulo braun wrote: > The first drawback is that > some applications may have a more difficult time going through two > levels of NAT. > Can you point some examples for this case? Hm, yes, is anyone has experiences in this area that would be good to know. I'm assuming it's much worse but I have no actual data. > Do you think that current nat traversal techniques would not work > properly if multiple levels of nats need to b traversed? As far as I've been able to deduce, uPnP and NAT-PMP (not IETF work) that are common in consumer CPEs won't work unless there is one NAT and it's on the local LAN. I could be wrong, though. 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    the only one that has been able to feed me satisfactorily in this ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C82A9A.A2360AC0-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Nov 19 08:25:51 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iu6dL-0005Er-B9 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 19 Nov 2007 08:25:51 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iu6dI-0000L3-Uj for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 19 Nov 2007 08:25:51 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Iu6Xg-000LXf-Dy for v6ops-data@psg.com; Mon, 19 Nov 2007 13:20:00 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [83.149.65.1] (helo=sequoia.muada.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Iu6X6-000LUW-H8 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 19 Nov 2007 13:19:44 +0000 Received: from [IPv6:2001:720:410:1001:21b:63ff:fe92:9fbb] ([IPv6:2001:720:410:1001:21b:63ff:fe92:9fbb]) (authenticated bits=0) by sequoia.muada.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id lAJDJFif086898 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 19 Nov 2007 14:19:16 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from iljitsch@muada.com) Message-Id: <33D2999E-3BA9-4FE6-AD88-BA3A4D881482@muada.com> From: Iljitsch van Beijnum To: IPv6 Operations Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v915) Subject: Fwd: I-D Action:draft-van-beijnum-modified-nat-pt-02.txt Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 14:19:20 +0100 References: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.915) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: c1c65599517f9ac32519d043c37c5336 Hi, I've updated my modified NAT-PT draft (again). It now includes: - changes to NAT-PT in the form of using A records directly rather than syntetic AAAA records so no DNS issues - synthetic RFC 1918 source address coupled with the above allows for applications to see that they're doing IPv4 rather than IPv6 and that there is NAT involved - the above allows for non-IPv6 applications to work - IPv4-to-IPv6-to-IPv4 translation without double NAT - a mechanism for IPv6-only hosts to receive incoming sessions from the IPv4-only world Please note that this is a discussion document, I'm not suggesting that everything in it is adopted as-is. Begin forwarded message: > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts > directories. > Title : Modified Network Address Translation - Protocol > Translation > Author(s) : I. van Beijnum > Filename : draft-van-beijnum-modified-nat-pt-02.txt > Pages : 16 > Date : 2007-11-19 > A smooth transition from IPv4 to IPv6 requires that either all hosts > are upgraded to dual stack before the first hosts can become IPv6- > only, or that there be some mechanism for IPv6-only hosts to talk to > IPv4-only hosts. Expecting the former within a reasonable timeframe > isn't realistic, based on current adoption of dual stack combined > with the latest projections for the IPv4 depletion that point to a > date early in the next decade. And the IETF has recently deprecated > the main mechanism that allows the latter: NAT-PT. > This document proposes modifications to NAT-PT that address the > reasons why the mechanism was deprecated. This should allow future > deployment of the modified NAT-PT as an IPv4-to-IPv6 transition > mechanism, giving operators the option of running their networks > largely IPv6-only. > A URL for this Internet-Draft is: > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-van-beijnum-modified-nat-pt-02.txt From zppsafe@euregio.net Mon Nov 19 09:47:57 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iu7un-000443-J9 for v6ops-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 19 Nov 2007 09:47:57 -0500 Received: from [217.175.128.130] (helo=euregio.net) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iu7um-0004ri-NF for v6ops-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 19 Nov 2007 09:47:57 -0500 Received: (qmail 72026 invoked from network); Mon, 19 Nov 2007 17:47:38 +0300 Received: from unknown (HELO dmitriy) (zppsafe@euregio.net@86.160.231.228) by 8280afd9euregio.net with SMTP; Mon, 19 Nov 2007 17:47:38 +0300 Message-ID: <001901c82ad4$46cafa80$0645ea04@dmitriy> From: west is To: v6ops-archive@ietf.org Subject: on my january Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 17:47:38 +0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0016_01C82AD4.46CAFA80" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.2869 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: c1c65599517f9ac32519d043c37c5336 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C82AD4.46CAFA80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable as well in a computer system as in the real world. 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    ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C82AD4.46CAFA80-- From kcame@lyndonsteel.com Mon Nov 19 09:56:10 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iu82k-0003PK-9O for v6ops-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 19 Nov 2007 09:56:10 -0500 Received: from 219-84-117-193-adsl-kao.static.so-net.net.tw ([219.84.117.193] helo=lyndonsteel.com) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iu82h-0005KY-Et for v6ops-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 19 Nov 2007 09:56:08 -0500 Received: (qmail 6913 invoked from network); Mon, 19 Nov 2007 22:58:42 +0800 Received: from unknown (HELO yourv62i08jhle) (kcame@lyndonsteel.com@90.185.212.250) by c17554dblyndonsteel.com with SMTP; Mon, 19 Nov 2007 22:58:42 +0800 Message-ID: <001101c82aff$bb70fb70$00c388b4@yourv62i08jhle> From: Lyman To: v6ops-archive@ietf.org Subject: a without Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 22:58:42 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000E_01C82AFF.BB70FB70" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.4682 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.1106 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 769a46790fb42fbb0b0cc700c82f7081 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C82AFF.BB70FB70 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Part Two - The Role of Technology in the Lives of Special Needs forms of in= formation, sound and images for example, but text is capabilities is more pervasive as the years go by. We have ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C82AFF.BB70FB70 Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

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    other little yet significant things that split trust in our North ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C82AFF.BB70FB70-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Nov 19 10:24:28 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iu8U8-0004uz-Fl for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 19 Nov 2007 10:24:28 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iu8Tx-0000h8-7T for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 19 Nov 2007 10:24:28 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Iu8QQ-0006Ds-KN for v6ops-data@psg.com; Mon, 19 Nov 2007 15:20:38 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-202.0 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE, USER_IN_ALL_SPAM_TO,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [156.154.16.158] (helo=ns0.neustar.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Iu8Pr-00068q-0M for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 19 Nov 2007 15:20:22 +0000 Received: from stiedprstage1.ietf.org (stiedprstage1.va.neustar.com [10.31.47.10]) by ns0.neustar.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36105328CD; Mon, 19 Nov 2007 15:20:02 +0000 (GMT) Received: from ietf by stiedprstage1.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Iu8Pq-0002pO-41; Mon, 19 Nov 2007 10:20:02 -0500 Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" Mime-Version: 1.0 To: i-d-announce@ietf.org Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Subject: I-D Action:draft-ietf-v6ops-teredo-security-concerns-01.txt Message-Id: Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 10:20:02 -0500 Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 3002fc2e661cd7f114cb6bae92fe88f1 --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the IPv6 Operations Working Group of the IETF. Title : Teredo Security Concerns Author(s) : J. Hoagland, S. Krishnan Filename : draft-ietf-v6ops-teredo-security-concerns-01.txt Pages : 20 Date : 2007-11-16 Additional security concerns with Teredo are documented, beyond what is in RFC 4380. This is based on an independent analysis of Teredo's security implications. The primary intent of this document is to raise the awareness regarding the security issues in Teredo as deployed today. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-v6ops-teredo-security-concerns-01.txt To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce to change your subscription settings. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-ietf-v6ops-teredo-security-concerns-01.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-v6ops-teredo-security-concerns-01.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; Boundary="OtherAccess" --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; access-type="mail-server"; server="mailserv@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2007-11-19101115.I-D@ietf.org> ENCODING mime FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-v6ops-teredo-security-concerns-01.txt --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-v6ops-teredo-security-concerns-01.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2007-11-19101115.I-D\@ietf.org> --OtherAccess-- --NextPart-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Nov 19 10:43:10 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iu8mE-00032G-LL for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 19 Nov 2007 10:43:10 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iu8mB-0002El-PS for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 19 Nov 2007 10:43:10 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Iu8jm-0008Rk-Ra for v6ops-data@psg.com; Mon, 19 Nov 2007 15:40:38 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-202.0 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE, USER_IN_ALL_SPAM_TO,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [156.154.16.138] (helo=ns1.neustar.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Iu8jD-0008Ek-8D for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 19 Nov 2007 15:40:22 +0000 Received: from stiedprstage1.ietf.org (stiedprstage1.va.neustar.com [10.31.47.10]) by ns1.neustar.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 498EC2AB68; Mon, 19 Nov 2007 15:40:02 +0000 (GMT) Received: from ietf by stiedprstage1.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Iu8jC-0002xx-4M; Mon, 19 Nov 2007 10:40:02 -0500 Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" Mime-Version: 1.0 To: i-d-announce@ietf.org Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Subject: I-D Action:draft-ietf-v6ops-scanning-implications-04.txt Message-Id: Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 10:40:02 -0500 Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 386e0819b1192672467565a524848168 --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the IPv6 Operations Working Group of the IETF. Title : IPv6 Implications for Network Scanning Author(s) : T. Chown Filename : draft-ietf-v6ops-scanning-implications-04.txt Pages : 13 Date : 2007-11-19 The much larger default 64-bit subnet address space of IPv6 should in principle make traditional network (port) scanning techniques used by certain network worms or scanning tools less effective. While traditional network scanning probes (whether by individuals or automated via network worms) may become less common, administrators should be aware that attackers may use other techniques to discover IPv6 addresses on a target network, and thus they should also be aware of measures that are available to mitigate against them. This informational document discusses approaches that administrators could take when planning their site address allocation and management strategies as part of a defence-in-depth approach to network security. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-v6ops-scanning-implications-04.txt To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce to change your subscription settings. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-ietf-v6ops-scanning-implications-04.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-v6ops-scanning-implications-04.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; Boundary="OtherAccess" --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; access-type="mail-server"; server="mailserv@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2007-11-19103300.I-D@ietf.org> ENCODING mime FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-v6ops-scanning-implications-04.txt --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-v6ops-scanning-implications-04.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2007-11-19103300.I-D\@ietf.org> --OtherAccess-- --NextPart-- From priyadarshiarqnt@drzbav.de Mon Nov 19 11:08:37 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iu9Ar-00053w-5x for v6ops-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 19 Nov 2007 11:08:37 -0500 Received: from catv-598449c2.catv.broadband.hu ([89.132.73.194]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iu9Aq-0003GI-Hf for v6ops-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 19 Nov 2007 11:08:36 -0500 Received: from pgy ([155.183.67.102] helo=pgy) by catv-598449c2.catv.broadband.hu ( sendmail 8.13.3/8.13.1) with esmtpa id 1FozZK-000OJL-Gm for v6ops-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 19 Nov 2007 16:38:18 +0100 Message-ID: <000c01c82ac2$214d1160$c2498459@pgy> From: "Masood priyadarshi" To: v6ops-archive@ietf.org Subject: prisonni Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 16:37:45 +0100 Message-ID: <000c01c82ac2$214d1160$c2498459@pgy> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 X-Spam-Score: 4.7 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 6d62ab47271805379d7172ee693a45db Anytime at your service. 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    ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C82ACE.E2D0E670-- From Shirley-lodder@drzbav.de Mon Nov 19 11:10:50 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iu9D0-0001ly-G0 for v6ops-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 19 Nov 2007 11:10:50 -0500 Received: from catv-598449c2.catv.broadband.hu ([89.132.73.194]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iu9D0-0003Qh-0s for v6ops-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 19 Nov 2007 11:10:50 -0500 Received: from pgy ([117.100.54.175] helo=pgy) by catv-598449c2.catv.broadband.hu ( sendmail 8.13.3/8.13.1) with esmtpa id 1GTtRf-000HVI-aQ for v6ops-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 19 Nov 2007 16:40:12 +0100 Message-ID: <000201c82ac2$70e44810$c2498459@pgy> From: "Shirley lodder" To: Subject: pspraken Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 16:39:58 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0006_01C82ACA.D2A8B010" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 1.6 (+) X-Scan-Signature: b19722fc8d3865b147c75ae2495625f2 ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C82ACA.D2A8B010 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Need meds, but feel embarassed to go to the chemist's? I know how to = help ya Klaatu neikov http://www.roundlittle.com/ ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C82ACA.D2A8B010 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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    ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C82ACA.D2A8B010-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Nov 19 13:35:23 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IuBSt-0000bA-8G for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 19 Nov 2007 13:35:23 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IuBSn-00028Z-Ig for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 19 Nov 2007 13:35:23 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IuBNb-000O56-Ll for v6ops-data@psg.com; Mon, 19 Nov 2007 18:29:55 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE, USER_IN_ALL_SPAM_TO autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [24.40.8.146] (helo=pacdcimo02.cable.comcast.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IuBMx-000O2G-Gn for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 19 Nov 2007 18:29:38 +0000 Received: from ([10.195.246.152]) by pacdcimo02.cable.comcast.com with ESMTP id KP-GZL85.13859712; Mon, 19 Nov 2007 13:28:58 -0500 Received: from PACDCEXCMB05.cable.comcast.com ([24.40.15.116]) by NJMDCEXCRLY01.cable.comcast.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Mon, 19 Nov 2007 13:28:58 -0500 Received: from 10.21.110.204 ([10.21.110.204]) by PACDCEXCMB05.cable.comcast.com ([24.40.15.116]) via Exchange Front-End Server webmail.comcast.com ([24.40.8.152]) with Microsoft Exchange Server HTTP-DAV ; Mon, 19 Nov 2007 18:28:57 +0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/11.3.6.070618 Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 13:28:55 -0500 Subject: 2nd DHCPv6 bake-off announcement From: Alain Durand To: , Message-ID: Thread-Topic: 2nd DHCPv6 bake-off announcement Thread-Index: Acgq2gqmSWW8tpbNEdyVvgAX8t+c7g== Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 19 Nov 2007 18:28:58.0136 (UTC) FILETIME=[0C855180:01C82ADA] Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 9ed51c9d1356100bce94f1ae4ec616a9 I would like to announce the 2nd DHCPv6 bake off to be organized the week-end after the IETF in Vancouver. The 1st DHCPv6 bake-off was held earlier this year at RIPE-NCC in Amsterdam and was a great success. See: http://www.isoc.org/tools/blogs/ietfjournal/?p=135 This new bake-off will be conducted in the same spirit, ie focusing on interoperability and operational practice. I've developed in partnership with ISC a preliminary test plan for this bake-off that is available upon request. Please contact me directly asap if you plan to attend or have any questions. - Alain. Organization information: ------------------------- Dates: Friday December 7th 12pm to Sunday December 9th 3pm Location: TBD, in Vancouver, BC, Canada Open to: any participant coming with an original implementation of a DHCPv6 client, relay or server Disclosure mode: this is a typical non disclosure event, ie you'll have full access to your test results, and we will only publish a short summary of the even as we did for the 1st bake-off in the above URL Contact & registration: Alain_Durand@cable.comcast.com What to bring: A platform to run your code (laptop, small router,...) Cost: there might be nominal fees to cover some of the local logistic (renting the room, etc..). Last time, I was able to bring those fees to $0. 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If you received this message in error, please send a blank email to: CyrusPhillipsKH@gmail.com From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Nov 20 03:49:03 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IuOn1-0003p6-V5 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 20 Nov 2007 03:49:03 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IuOmy-0003E6-A6 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 20 Nov 2007 03:49:03 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IuOg4-000DAg-Cn for v6ops-data@psg.com; Tue, 20 Nov 2007 08:41:52 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [60.234.76.2] (helo=unobtainium.braintrust.co.nz) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IuOfr-000D9m-RJ for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 20 Nov 2007 08:41:46 +0000 Received: from [10.1.1.6] (219-89-44-103.dialup.xtra.co.nz [219.89.44.103]) by unobtainium.braintrust.co.nz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A8602751A for ; Tue, 20 Nov 2007 21:41:37 +1300 (NZDT) Message-Id: From: Nathan Ward To: v6ops WG In-Reply-To: <4704038D.8010405@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v915) Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-for-ipv6-01.txt Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 21:41:34 +1300 References: <8E5700F4-A24E-4C5F-8934-411BD25B426F@ucd.ie> <4704038D.8010405@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.915) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: a87a9cdae4ac5d3fbeee75cd0026d632 I'd normally delete the bulk of the context, but as I'm late getting =20 in here.. More below.. On 4/10/2007, at 10:03 AM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > In line... > > On 2007-10-04 04:34, Marc Blanchet wrote: >> Le 07-10-03 =E0 17:09, Niall O'Reilly a =E9crit : >>> >>> On 3 Oct 2007, at 14:13, Marc Blanchet wrote: >>> >>>> I understand your comment. However, the issues you are raising =20 >>>> (as well as others) related to 6to4 are already in the 6to4 =20 >>>> security RFC (RFC3964), which is already referenced in the 6to4 =20 >>>> paragraph. Therefore, I would suggest not to add any additional =20 >>>> text in order to not repeat what is already throughly discussed =20 >>>> in RFC3964. >>> >>> I understand your response, and have some sympathy with your =20 >>> point of view. >>> >>> I see two possible goals here: "communication" and =20 >>> "documentation". I'm not >>> sure whether both are intended goals of the document being =20 >>> drafted. I think >>> they should be. >>> >>> Repetition is a nuisance in documentation, as it involves =20 >>> parallel maintenance. >>> OTOH, appropriate repetition is useful in communication, as it =20= >>> helps underline >>> the message. >>> >>> My sense of the purpose of this document is that its readers =20 >>> ought to be >>> adequately or even compellingly guided towards doing "the right =20= >>> thing". What >>> prompted me to comment as I did was that, in reading it, I =20 >>> didn't quite find >>> the kind of guidance I was looking for. >> I agree completly on the principle. If you refer to the first =20 >> versions of the document, that was the intent and I covered more =20 >> stuff around this to help people do the right thing concerning =20 >> routing policies. Actually, the first title of the document was =20 >> "IPv6 routing policies guidelines". But there were people concerned =20= >> about that direction. Therefore, it was decided to do something =20 >> similar to RFC3330, which roughly documents the special IPv6 =20 >> addresses with very few if any info on routing policies. that was =20 >> the compromise to get the document with concensus. Therefore, I'm =20 >> trying to stick to the guidance that was previously agreed on the =20 >> scope/direction of the document , which is about near zero =20 >> reference to routing policies. >> summary: I agree with your comment, but to my knowledge, this is =20 >> not the direction the wg wanted the document to have. > > I would suggest making the reference to RFC 3964 more specific, e.g. > > 2.7. 6to4 > > 2002::/16 are the 6to4 addresses [RFC4291][RFC3056]. The 6to4 > addresses may be advertised when the site is running a 6to4 relay or > offering a 6to4 transit service. However, the provider of this > service should be aware of the implications of running such > service[RFC3964], which includes some specific filtering rules for > 6to4. IPv4 addresses disallowed in 6to4 prefixes are listed > in section 5.3.1 of [RFC3964]. Should it mention that de-aggregating 2002::/16 is not good? It's not =20= clear here, I don't know if it needs to be. > In reference to Joe's list, I think it's out of place to mention > 14/8, but in any case, if the list is incomplete, we need to fix > RFC 3964. Having a different list here would be confusing. I think this is not just a security concern - using reserved IPv4 =20 addresses with Teredo will obviously not work over the public =20 Internet, which (I would say) is more of a blocking issue than =20 security for people using 6to4. So, I'd suggest that it belongs in =20 this document, or perhaps in a document describing Should we also include stuff for Teredo+RFC3330/RFC1918? IE. any of =20 the same IPv4 addresses in the A or B (XORed) in: 2001:0000:AAAA:AAAA:0000:0000:BBBB:BBBB (Now that I've read the draft in detail I realise that we already have =20= a documentation prefix, which is what this email was originally =20 intended to be about. I was greping for 'example' and thought it had =20 been missed out.) -- Nathan Ward From Rachana217@leksiko.com Tue Nov 20 04:26:17 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IuPN3-0001IX-95 for v6ops-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 20 Nov 2007 04:26:17 -0500 Received: from host145-183-static.73-81-b.business.telecomitalia.it ([81.73.183.145]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IuPN2-0004AT-N9 for v6ops-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 20 Nov 2007 04:26:17 -0500 Received: from Stefania ([110.105.198.77] helo=Stefania) by host145-183-static.73-81-b.business.telecomitalia.it ( sendmail 8.13.3/8.13.1) with esmtpa id 1LRDtu-000AKT-ep for v6ops-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Tue, 20 Nov 2007 10:26:43 +0100 Message-ID: <000701c82b57$64b8a230$91b74951@Stefania> From: "Rachana ciminella" To: Subject: nisluap Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 10:26:13 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0006_01C82B5F.C67D0A30" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e5ba305d0e64821bf3d8bc5d3bb07228 ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C82B5F.C67D0A30 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Be a man from her dreams nuent guitard http://www.milliontry.com/ ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C82B5F.C67D0A30 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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    ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C82B7F.3E1B5A00-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Nov 20 14:37:03 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IuYu7-0000cN-0C for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 20 Nov 2007 14:37:03 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IuYu2-0006Px-5U for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 20 Nov 2007 14:37:02 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IuYof-000DiO-Mo for v6ops-data@psg.com; Tue, 20 Nov 2007 19:31:25 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [198.54.206.135] (helo=CNTRRA20-GTW05.telkom.co.za) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IuYoR-000Dgm-Ae for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 20 Nov 2007 19:31:19 +0000 Received: from CNTRRA20-XS01.telkom.co.za ([165.143.130.229]) by CNTRRA20-GTW05.telkom.co.za with InterScan Message Security Suite; Tue, 20 Nov 2007 21:31:04 +0200 Received: from CNTRRA20-XS00.telkom.co.za ([165.143.131.214]) by CNTRRA20-XS01.telkom.co.za with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Tue, 20 Nov 2007 21:31:04 +0200 Received: from mail pickup service by CNTRRA20-XS00.telkom.co.za with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 20 Nov 2007 21:31:03 +0200 Received: from CNTRRA20-GTW04.telkom.co.za ([198.54.206.131]) by CNTRRA20-XS00.telkom.co.za with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Tue, 20 Nov 2007 15:14:47 +0200 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by CNTRRA20-GTW04.telkom.co.za with InterScan Message Security Suite; Tue, 20 Nov 2007 11:20:44 +0200 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IuOg4-000DAg-Cn for v6ops-data@psg.com; Tue, 20 Nov 2007 08:41:52 +0000 Received: from [60.234.76.2] (helo=unobtainium.braintrust.co.nz) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IuOfr-000D9m-RJ for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 20 Nov 2007 08:41:46 +0000 Received: from [10.1.1.6] (219-89-44-103.dialup.xtra.co.nz [219.89.44.103]) by unobtainium.braintrust.co.nz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A8602751A for ; Tue, 20 Nov 2007 21:41:37 +1300 (NZDT) Message-Id: From: Nathan Ward To: v6ops WG In-Reply-To: <4704038D.8010405@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v915) Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-for-ipv6-01.txt Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 21:41:34 +1300 References: <8E5700F4-A24E-4C5F-8934-411BD25B426F@ucd.ie> <4704038D.8010405@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.915) X-OriginalArrivalTime: 20 Nov 2007 13:14:50.0536 (UTC) FILETIME=[54E38A80:01C82B77] Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 057ebe9b96adec30a7efb2aeda4c26a4 I'd normally delete the bulk of the context, but as I'm late getting =20 in here.. More below.. On 4/10/2007, at 10:03 AM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > In line... > > On 2007-10-04 04:34, Marc Blanchet wrote: >> Le 07-10-03 =E0 17:09, Niall O'Reilly a =E9crit : >>> >>> On 3 Oct 2007, at 14:13, Marc Blanchet wrote: >>> >>>> I understand your comment. However, the issues you are raising =20 >>>> (as well as others) related to 6to4 are already in the 6to4 =20 >>>> security RFC (RFC3964), which is already referenced in the 6to4 =20 >>>> paragraph. Therefore, I would suggest not to add any additional =20 >>>> text in order to not repeat what is already throughly discussed =20 >>>> in RFC3964. >>> >>> I understand your response, and have some sympathy with your =20 >>> point of view. >>> >>> I see two possible goals here: "communication" and =20 >>> "documentation". I'm not >>> sure whether both are intended goals of the document being =20 >>> drafted. I think >>> they should be. >>> >>> Repetition is a nuisance in documentation, as it involves =20 >>> parallel maintenance. >>> OTOH, appropriate repetition is useful in communication, as it =20= >>> helps underline >>> the message. >>> >>> My sense of the purpose of this document is that its readers =20 >>> ought to be >>> adequately or even compellingly guided towards doing "the right =20= >>> thing". What >>> prompted me to comment as I did was that, in reading it, I =20 >>> didn't quite find >>> the kind of guidance I was looking for. >> I agree completly on the principle. If you refer to the first =20 >> versions of the document, that was the intent and I covered more =20 >> stuff around this to help people do the right thing concerning =20 >> routing policies. Actually, the first title of the document was =20 >> "IPv6 routing policies guidelines". But there were people concerned =20= >> about that direction. Therefore, it was decided to do something =20 >> similar to RFC3330, which roughly documents the special IPv6 =20 >> addresses with very few if any info on routing policies. that was =20 >> the compromise to get the document with concensus. Therefore, I'm =20 >> trying to stick to the guidance that was previously agreed on the =20 >> scope/direction of the document , which is about near zero =20 >> reference to routing policies. >> summary: I agree with your comment, but to my knowledge, this is =20 >> not the direction the wg wanted the document to have. > > I would suggest making the reference to RFC 3964 more specific, e.g. > > 2.7. 6to4 > > 2002::/16 are the 6to4 addresses [RFC4291][RFC3056]. The 6to4 > addresses may be advertised when the site is running a 6to4 relay or > offering a 6to4 transit service. However, the provider of this > service should be aware of the implications of running such > service[RFC3964], which includes some specific filtering rules for > 6to4. IPv4 addresses disallowed in 6to4 prefixes are listed > in section 5.3.1 of [RFC3964]. Should it mention that de-aggregating 2002::/16 is not good? It's not =20= clear here, I don't know if it needs to be. > In reference to Joe's list, I think it's out of place to mention > 14/8, but in any case, if the list is incomplete, we need to fix > RFC 3964. Having a different list here would be confusing. I think this is not just a security concern - using reserved IPv4 =20 addresses with Teredo will obviously not work over the public =20 Internet, which (I would say) is more of a blocking issue than =20 security for people using 6to4. So, I'd suggest that it belongs in =20 this document, or perhaps in a document describing Should we also include stuff for Teredo+RFC3330/RFC1918? IE. any of =20 the same IPv4 addresses in the A or B (XORed) in: 2001:0000:AAAA:AAAA:0000:0000:BBBB:BBBB (Now that I've read the draft in detail I realise that we already have =20= a documentation prefix, which is what this email was originally =20 intended to be about. I was greping for 'example' and thought it had =20 been missed out.) -- Nathan Ward From Christos482@Bornova.Ege.Edu.Tr Tue Nov 20 15:00:24 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IuZGi-0006VZ-LY for v6ops-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 20 Nov 2007 15:00:24 -0500 Received: from [87.226.250.249] (helo=[87.226.250.249]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IuZGd-0000Of-HM for v6ops-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 20 Nov 2007 15:00:20 -0500 Received: from buh ([191.125.148.107]:24144 "EHLO buh" smtp-auth: TLS-CIPHER: TLS-PEER-CN1: ) by [87.226.250.249] with ESMTP id S22HEUBPHVOVPSWC (ORCPT ); Wed, 21 Nov 2007 05:00:43 +0900 Message-ID: <000501c82baf$f7e9e070$f9fae257@buh> From: "Christos Mersch" To: Subject: h"awgnuj Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 05:00:15 +0900 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0004_01C82BFB.67D18870" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8abaac9e10c826e8252866cbe6766464 ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C82BFB.67D18870 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="koi8-r" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Take a prt in the nught marathone and win it with the meds inside Hua Nickisch http://answerbeen.com/ ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C82BFB.67D18870 Content-Type: text/html; charset="koi8-r" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Take a prt in the nught marathone = and win it=20 with the meds inside
    Hua Nickisch
    http://answerbeen.com/
    ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C82BFB.67D18870-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Nov 20 17:22:10 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IubTu-00016H-Db for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 20 Nov 2007 17:22:10 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IubTq-0005V5-PC for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 20 Nov 2007 17:22:10 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IubQR-0002Nb-FO for v6ops-data@psg.com; Tue, 20 Nov 2007 22:18:35 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE, USER_IN_ALL_SPAM_TO autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [17.254.13.23] (helo=mail-out4.apple.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IubQ9-0002Ly-T2 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 20 Nov 2007 22:18:29 +0000 Received: from relay11.apple.com (relay11.apple.com [17.128.113.48]) by mail-out4.apple.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CD4619C6009; Tue, 20 Nov 2007 14:18:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay11.apple.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by relay11.apple.com (Symantec Mail Security) with ESMTP id 5C8712809D; Tue, 20 Nov 2007 14:18:17 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: 11807130-a93afbb000006ed1-22-47435d2925ba Received: from [17.151.111.218] (unknown [17.151.111.218]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by relay11.apple.com (Apple SCV relay) with ESMTP id B05BB2809A; Tue, 20 Nov 2007 14:18:16 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Cc: Melinda Shore Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: james woodyatt Subject: Re: [BEHAVE] RE: Firewall control Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 14:18:05 -0800 To: IPv6 Operations , Behave WG X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: a2c12dacc0736f14d6b540e805505a86 On Nov 16, 2007, at 07:34, Melinda Shore wrote: > On 11/16/07 10:27 AM, "R=E9mi Denis-Courmont" courmont@nokia.com> wrote: >> Uh? UPnP is about mapping external ports to internal ones, and =20 >> getting the >> external address of the middlebox. Now, if that's not NAT centric... > > The last time I looked at it it also included firewall pinholing. There are hints that UPnP IGD 2.0 may support firewall pinholing in =20 IPv6 whenever it's eventually published. I have seen no public =20 documents yet, but I would be very surprised if this feature is =20 inserted into the specification by any method beyond the =20 straightforward method of extended the XML schemas to allow IPv6 =20 addresses and, possibly, to note that no NAT is necessary. >> A firewall that has an "advanced" policy such as what you'll find =20 >> in a typical >> corporate network most certainly does not want to be controlled =20 >> anyway. > > Back when we were trying to figure out what to call this work there > was a strong "suggestion" from Scott Bradner to call it "middlebox > communication" because we didn't want to imply that the endpoint or > its proxy was actually going to be controlling anything. The problem > here isn't to allow applications to open pinholes on firewalls, but > rather for applications to request these network resources, give the > network/firewall sufficient information to say "yes" or "no," and > give the network a mechanism to communicate its decision back to the > endpoint. I'd like to point out that my ALD proposal is very deliberately =20 presented with an inverted perspective on this. The problem I tried =20 to address is to give the stateful firewall a chance to discover =20 application endpoint addresses that policy requires it to exempt from =20= the general prohibition on blocking incoming packets not conforming =20 to any existing state created by tracking the flow of outbound packets. ALD is absolutely *NOT* a mechanism for applications to "control" =20 firewalls, or even to "request" firewalls to open pinholes for them. =20= It is a mechanism for firewalls to discover application listeners, so =20= that incoming flows for those applications can be delivered to them =20 properly, even when applications don't know in advance where those =20 flows will originate. Notice that ALD notifications go from nodes to =20= firewalls, and acknowledgements are sent by firewalls solely for the =20 purpose of telling nodes to stop sending notification retries. No =20 information is provided by firewalls to applications beyond that. =20 This is quite intentional. I think firewalls should be as transparent as possible, except when =20 policy requires them to intervene. In my humble opinion, ALD's primary virtue is that it correctly =20 places the burden on the firewall not to destroy network transparency =20= unnecessarily. To that end, it aims to define a way for IPv6 node =20 implementations to provide firewalls with enough information to =20 behave transparently in the face of passive listening applications. =20 It does not try to inform applications of the state of firewalls in =20 the network. We all still think applications shouldn't have to care, right? I also think it's worth noting that any proposal for nodes/=20 applications to communicate with firewalls to solve these sorts of =20 problems will inevitably involve disclosing the addresses of =20 application passive listener endpoints when their users may not be =20 expecting it. I don't know how to prevent that from happening and =20 still comply with the recommendations described in RFC 4864 and =20 expanded in draft-ietf-v6ops-cpe-simple-security, but I don't think =20 many participants here think this is a sensible security =20 consideration. Furthermore, I suspect many network operators will be =20= very interested in mining the information stream produced by =20 protocols of this class. This is another virtue of ALD. It gives operators the potential for =20 some snooping goodness they can't get with current IPv6 =20 implementations, and it does so *without* larding their firewalls =20 down with a lot of extra work trying to inform applications of things =20= they shouldn't need to know. -- james woodyatt member of technical staff, communications engineering From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Nov 20 17:51:51 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iubwd-0003RV-SB for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 20 Nov 2007 17:51:51 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IubwZ-0006PK-H2 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 20 Nov 2007 17:51:51 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Iubtn-00058q-FQ for v6ops-data@psg.com; Tue, 20 Nov 2007 22:48:55 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [17.254.13.22] (helo=mail-out3.apple.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Iubtc-00058C-N3 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 20 Nov 2007 22:48:49 +0000 Received: from relay13.apple.com (relay13.apple.com [17.128.113.29]) by mail-out3.apple.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A0D719142A3 for ; Tue, 20 Nov 2007 14:48:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from relay13.apple.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by relay13.apple.com (Symantec Mail Security) with ESMTP id 2EAE028058 for ; Tue, 20 Nov 2007 14:48:44 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: 1180711d-9e2b9bb0000008bf-ea-4743644b93ef Received: from [17.151.119.215] (unknown [17.151.119.215]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by relay13.apple.com (Apple SCV relay) with ESMTP id 9D7D1280A3 for ; Tue, 20 Nov 2007 14:48:43 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) In-Reply-To: References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: james woodyatt Subject: Re: question about draft-durand-v6ops-natv4v6v4-00 Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 14:48:39 -0800 To: IPv6 Operations X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 0bc60ec82efc80c84b8d02f4b0e4de22 On Nov 19, 2007, at 01:15, Iljitsch van Beijnum wrote: > On 18 nov 2007, at 20:32, marcelo bagnulo braun wrote: >> >> Do you think that current nat traversal techniques would not work >> properly if multiple levels of nats need to b traversed? > > As far as I've been able to deduce, uPnP and NAT-PMP (not IETF > work) that are common in consumer CPEs won't work unless there is > one NAT and it's on the local LAN. I could be wrong, though. This is correct. I know of at least one real application that works through one layer of NAT, but not two: the Back To My Mac feature in Mac OS X 10.5, which relies on registering wide-area DNS-SD service advertisements in the members.mac.com zone for the tunnel endpoints. The mDNSResponder agent doesn't manage the UNSAF problem when there are multiple levels of NAT between the Mac OS X host and the DNS servers. BTMM can use either NAT-PMP or UPnP IGD. No other mechanisms are supported. -- james woodyatt member of technical staff, communications engineering From elena@SableSentinel.IntraxSRV.com Tue Nov 20 18:20:32 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IucOO-0000iS-5C for v6ops-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 20 Nov 2007 18:20:32 -0500 Received: from host141-7-dynamic.58-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it ([82.58.7.141] helo=host105-15-dynamic.59-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IucOJ-00013U-HP for v6ops-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 20 Nov 2007 18:20:32 -0500 Received: from pasquale-317e4b by SableSentinel.IntraxSRV.com with ASMTP id E48758E3 for ; Wed, 21 Nov 2007 00:20:48 +0100 Received: from pasquale-317e4b ([181.124.104.108]) by SableSentinel.IntraxSRV.com with ESMTP id 95C666E98E4F for ; Wed, 21 Nov 2007 00:20:48 +0100 Message-ID: <000701c82bcb$ebb37020$690f3b52@pasquale317e4b> From: "elena hentley" To: Subject: ppumisen Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 00:20:21 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0009_01C82BD4.4D77D820" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e5ba305d0e64821bf3d8bc5d3bb07228 ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C82BD4.4D77D820 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Make your tiny lace a true symbol of your power mamy DeVito http://fewdiscuss.com/ ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C82BD4.4D77D820 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Make your tiny lace a true = symbol of your power
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This one? > 1. Introduction > > RFC 4966 published on July 2007 deprecates the NAT-PT tool, the > mechanism defined by the IETF to enable communications between IPv4 > only nodes with IPv6 only nodes, letting the dual-stack approach as > the preferred mechanism to enable nodes to be able to communicate > with v6 and v4 nodes. However, there are several reasons why the > dual stack approach may not be adequate for a number of scenarios. > For once, the dual-stack approach imposes the management of two > networks in a site, the v6 one and the v4 one, increasing the costs > of using IPv6. I think that's a very weak argument in the next few years. The vast majority of deployments will be dual stack routing - can you seriously imagine doing anything else? If you want to make this argument, it should surely be made only as a long term consideration. > In addition, as IPv4 public address space is > depleted, it will no longer possible to access to IPv4 public > addresses, making dual stack nodes even less attractive. Well, if I was implementing a new service, I would work very hard to get a public IPv4 address for it, so I don't think this argument works for servers and services for many years to come. It clearly will apply to client systems much sooner. So I'd rather see the problem expressed as: New populations of clients (and p2p hosts) that have no public IPv4 address, but do have plentiful public IPv6 addresses, which need to contact legacy servers (and p2p hosts) that have a public IPv4 address (possibly NATted) but no IPv6 capability. I don't think that changes the technical scenario. > 3. Supported application behavior > > The general purpose of NAT64 type of mechanisms is to enable > communication between a v4-only node and a v6-only node. However, > there is wide range of type of communication, when considering how > they handle the IP addresses. That's true. But are we really aiming to solve all the scenarios you describe? It seems to me that we probably can't, because in any case the only safe assumption is that the legacy IPv4 system is sitting behind a NAPT. And in any case, if we have a translator with one IPv4 address fronting for 1000 IPv6 hosts, we automatically inherit *all* the issues of NAPT, including dynamic port mapping and the need for application level gateways for any address-dependent applications. Therefore, is there any point in having any goals that go beyond "doing no more damage to connectivity than NAPT44 does today"? In any case I am sure that we will end up with NAPT64, not NAT64. Port mapping is inevitable. Brian -- Regards Brian Carpenter University of Auckland From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Nov 22 00:50:47 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iv4xb-0001Cp-PJ for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 22 Nov 2007 00:50:47 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iv4xX-0001ND-EK for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 22 Nov 2007 00:50:47 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Iv4th-0007Ls-R6 for v6ops-data@psg.com; Thu, 22 Nov 2007 05:46:45 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [131.107.115.215] (helo=smtp.microsoft.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Iv4tX-0007LT-7w for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 22 Nov 2007 05:46:40 +0000 Received: from tk5-exhub-c103.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.70.186) by TK5-EXGWY-E802.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.168) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.222.3; Wed, 21 Nov 2007 21:46:07 -0800 Received: from TK5-EXMLT-W604.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com (157.54.18.7) by tk5-exhub-c103.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.70.186) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 8.1.222.3; Wed, 21 Nov 2007 21:46:30 -0800 Received: from NA-EXMSG-W602.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.198]) by TK5-EXMLT-W604.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com ([157.54.18.7]) with mapi; Wed, 21 Nov 2007 21:46:30 -0800 From: Christian Huitema To: "brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com" , IPv6 Operations , marcelo bagnulo braun Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 21:46:29 -0800 Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-bagnulo-v6ops-6man-nat64-pb-statement-00.txt Thread-Topic: I-D ACTION:draft-bagnulo-v6ops-6man-nat64-pb-statement-00.txt Thread-Index: AcgstUZOL2EdR2zdQbWrtOismt8PewAFJj8g Message-ID: References: <4744EFAE.4040700@cs.auckland.ac.nz> In-Reply-To: <4744EFAE.4040700@cs.auckland.ac.nz> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; 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    ------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C82CE7.426FCD70-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Nov 22 03:49:30 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iv7kY-0004qE-84 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 22 Nov 2007 03:49:30 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iv7kU-0007Wk-NH for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 22 Nov 2007 03:49:30 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Iv7f8-000Hmg-Ct for v6ops-data@psg.com; Thu, 22 Nov 2007 08:43:54 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [83.149.65.1] (helo=sequoia.muada.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Iv7eY-000HkQ-Gy for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 22 Nov 2007 08:43:38 +0000 Received: from [IPv6:2001:720:410:1001:21b:63ff:fe92:9fbb] ([IPv6:2001:720:410:1001:21b:63ff:fe92:9fbb]) (authenticated bits=0) by sequoia.muada.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id lAM8h7wV052894 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Thu, 22 Nov 2007 09:43:08 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from iljitsch@muada.com) Cc: "brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com" , IPv6 Operations , marcelo bagnulo braun Message-Id: From: Iljitsch van Beijnum To: Christian Huitema In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v915) Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-bagnulo-v6ops-6man-nat64-pb-statement-00.txt Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 09:43:08 +0100 References: <4744EFAE.4040700@cs.auckland.ac.nz> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.915) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: a7d6aff76b15f3f56fcb94490e1052e4 On 22 nov 2007, at 6:46, Christian Huitema wrote: >> Well, if I was implementing a new service, I would work very hard to >> get a public IPv4 address for it, so I don't think this argument >> works for servers and services for many years to come. It clearly >> will apply to client systems much sooner. So I'd rather see the >> problem expressed as: New populations of clients (and p2p hosts) >> that have no public IPv4 address, but do have plentiful public >> IPv6 addresses, which need to contact legacy servers (and p2p hosts) >> that have a public IPv4 address (possibly NATted) but no IPv6 >> capability. > What P2P hosts are we speaking of, exactly? As far as I know, there > are very few PC-class hosts that cannot now run some form of IPv6, > using a transition technology like Teredo or 6to4. P2P applications > are thus very likely to use that. There are two types of peer-to-peer: the BitTorrent model, where you don't really care who you talk to because multiple peers have the same resource. As long as there is a reasonable group of dual stack peers there's no need for IPv4 and IPv6 peers to communicate. But with the VoIP model you need to be able to talk to any particular peer so here it's useful to have a way to make IPv6 peers talk to IPv4 peers and vice versa. Also, users could be running services that aren't necessarily peer-to- peer applications. For instance, Apple's "back to my mac" or similar. > I suggest that we limit the scope of the problem to enabling IPv6 > only hosts to contact legacy IPv4 servers, assuming that these > servers in fact have a global IPv4 address. Smaller problems are > easier to solve... Doing that in the requirements phase would be too soon, in my opinion. If you look at http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-van-beijnum-modified-nat-pt-02.txt section 4, you'll see that providing access from IPv4 clients to IPv6 services is arguably simpler than the other way around... 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( [130.216.38.124]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id f21sm2399194rvb.2007.11.22.12.41.07 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Thu, 22 Nov 2007 12:41:08 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4745E961.7050702@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 09:41:05 +1300 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Windows/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Christian Huitema CC: IPv6 Operations , marcelo bagnulo braun Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-bagnulo-v6ops-6man-nat64-pb-statement-00.txt References: <4744EFAE.4040700@cs.auckland.ac.nz> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 8abaac9e10c826e8252866cbe6766464 On 2007-11-22 18:46, Christian Huitema wrote: >>> In addition, as IPv4 public address space is >>> depleted, it will no longer possible to access to IPv4 public >>> addresses, making dual stack nodes even less attractive. >> Well, if I was implementing a new service, I would work very hard to >> get a public IPv4 address for it, so I don't think this argument >> works for servers and services for many years to come. It clearly >> will apply to client systems much sooner. So I'd rather see the >> problem expressed as: New populations of clients (and p2p hosts) >> that have no public IPv4 address, but do have plentiful public >> IPv6 addresses, which need to contact legacy servers (and p2p hosts) >> that have a public IPv4 address (possibly NATted) but no IPv6 >> capability. > > What P2P hosts are we speaking of, exactly? Ones that are behind an ISP that not only doesn't support IPv6, but also has "security" in place that blocks IPv6 tunnels of all kinds. In this case, a dual stack host has no IPv6 capability. If that's a null set, I agree with you. But is it? Brian > As far as I know, there are very few PC-class hosts that cannot now run some form of IPv6, using a transition technology like Teredo or 6to4. P2P applications are thus very likely to use that. > > I suggest that we limit the scope of the problem to enabling IPv6 only hosts to contact legacy IPv4 servers, assuming that these servers in fact have a global IPv4 address. Smaller problems are easier to solve... > > -- Christian Huitema > > From RosendotheeHolden@spearsmfg.com Thu Nov 22 16:43:19 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IvJpP-0007OM-1t; Thu, 22 Nov 2007 16:43:19 -0500 Received: from a241-106.adsl.paltel.net ([213.6.241.106] helo=zahee) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IvJpL-0007au-I8; Thu, 22 Nov 2007 16:43:18 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by host55617915.spearsmfg.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with SMTP id qkN76GjZ89.948121.IAW.z27.2394629549878 for ; Fri, 23 Nov 2007 00:42:08 -0300 Message-ID: <699201c82d50$af243b40$0132a8c0@zahee> From: "Rico Snider" To: Subject: Your life Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 00:42:08 -0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_698E_01C82D50.AF243B40" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d16ce744298aacf98517bc7c108bd198 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_698E_01C82D50.AF243B40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Even if you have no erection problems Cialis would help you to make = better sex more often and to bring unimaginable plesure to her. 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    ------=_NextPart_000_698E_01C82D50.AF243B40-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Nov 22 19:48:55 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IvMj0-0007Cw-MZ for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 22 Nov 2007 19:48:55 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IvMiu-00061C-Gs for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 22 Nov 2007 19:48:54 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IvMcn-000Akl-E3 for v6ops-data@psg.com; Fri, 23 Nov 2007 00:42:29 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [131.107.115.212] (helo=smtp.microsoft.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IvMcW-000Ajv-L1 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 23 Nov 2007 00:42:23 +0000 Received: from tk5-exhub-c104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.70.185) by TK5-EXGWY-E801.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.50) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.222.3; Thu, 22 Nov 2007 16:41:48 -0800 Received: from TK5-EXMLT-W603.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com (157.54.18.6) by tk5-exhub-c104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.70.185) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 8.1.222.3; Thu, 22 Nov 2007 16:42:11 -0800 Received: from NA-EXMSG-W602.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.198]) by TK5-EXMLT-W603.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com ([157.54.18.6]) with mapi; Thu, 22 Nov 2007 16:42:11 -0800 From: Christian Huitema To: Brian E Carpenter CC: IPv6 Operations , marcelo bagnulo braun Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 16:41:55 -0800 Subject: RE: I-D ACTION:draft-bagnulo-v6ops-6man-nat64-pb-statement-00.txt Thread-Topic: I-D ACTION:draft-bagnulo-v6ops-6man-nat64-pb-statement-00.txt Thread-Index: AcgtSA2RKPHCpye2QDuO49FD0HOtQQAITKTw Message-ID: References: <4744EFAE.4040700@cs.auckland.ac.nz> <4745E961.7050702@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <4745E961.7050702@gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 7a6398bf8aaeabc7a7bb696b6b0a2aad PiBPbmVzIHRoYXQgYXJlIGJlaGluZCBhbiBJU1AgdGhhdCBub3Qgb25seSBkb2Vzbid0IHN1cHBv cnQgSVB2NiwNCj4gYnV0IGFsc28gaGFzICJzZWN1cml0eSIgaW4gcGxhY2UgdGhhdCBibG9ja3Mg SVB2NiB0dW5uZWxzIG9mDQo+IGFsbCBraW5kcy4gSW4gdGhpcyBjYXNlLCBhIGR1YWwgc3RhY2sg aG9zdCBoYXMgbm8gSVB2NiBjYXBhYmlsaXR5Lg0KPg0KPiBJZiB0aGF0J3MgYSBudWxsIHNldCwg SSBhZ3JlZSB3aXRoIHlvdS4gQnV0IGlzIGl0Pw0KDQpUaGVyZSBjZXJ0YWlubHkgYXJlIGhvc3Rz IGJlaGluZCBzdWNoIGZpcmV3YWxscy4gQnV0IHRoZW4sIGZpcmV3YWxscyBkb24ndCBqdXN0IGJs b2NrIHR1bm5lbHMuIFRoZXkgdHlwaWNhbGx5IGRvIHRoYXQgdG8gaW1wbGVtZW50IGEgcG9saWN5 LiBBbmQgSSBiZWxpZXZlIHRoZXJlIGlzIGEgdmVyeSBsYXJnZSBvdmVybGFwIGJldHdlZW4gcG9s aWNpZXMgdGhhdCBibG9jayB0dW5uZWxzIGFuZCBwb2xpY2llcyB0aGF0IGJsb2NrIFAyUCBhcHBs aWNhdGlvbnMuIFRoZSBzdWJzZXQgb2YgaG9zdHMgdGhhdCBjb3VsZCBkbyBQMlAgYnV0IHdvdWxk IG5vdCBiZSBhYmxlIHRvIHRvIHR1bm5lbHMgaXMgcHJvYmFibHkgdmVyeSBzbWFsbC4NCg0KLS0g Q2hyaXN0aWFuIEh1aXRlbWENCg0KDQoNCg== From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Nov 22 20:00:30 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IvMuE-0001o2-Ow for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; 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( [130.216.38.124]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id f36sm2806978rvb.2007.11.22.16.58.37 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Thu, 22 Nov 2007 16:58:38 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <474625B9.4040703@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 13:58:33 +1300 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Windows/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Christian Huitema CC: IPv6 Operations , marcelo bagnulo braun Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-bagnulo-v6ops-6man-nat64-pb-statement-00.txt References: <4744EFAE.4040700@cs.auckland.ac.nz> <4745E961.7050702@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: d6b246023072368de71562c0ab503126 On 2007-11-23 13:41, Christian Huitema wrote: >> Ones that are behind an ISP that not only doesn't support IPv6, >> but also has "security" in place that blocks IPv6 tunnels of >> all kinds. In this case, a dual stack host has no IPv6 capability. >> >> If that's a null set, I agree with you. But is it? > > There certainly are hosts behind such firewalls. But then, firewalls don't just block tunnels. They typically do that to implement a policy. And I believe there is a very large overlap between policies that block tunnels and policies that block P2P applications. The subset of hosts that could do P2P but would not be able to to tunnels is probably very small. It's my understanding that many p2p applications revert to running over http when they can't find any kind of layer 3 connectivity. In the case we're discussing, that would mean http over IPv4. If there's a dual stack http proxy on the path, that would fix it. However, I'd like to hear from the SIP community on this point. How will p2p SIP work in a mixed network? Brian From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Nov 23 03:37:29 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IvU2T-0006g4-L4 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 23 Nov 2007 03:37:29 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IvU2N-00080d-Hr for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 23 Nov 2007 03:37:29 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IvTtG-000EKN-Cb for v6ops-data@psg.com; Fri, 23 Nov 2007 08:27:58 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [194.242.114.73] (helo=poy.chewa.net) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IvTsg-000EIl-SR for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 23 Nov 2007 08:27:42 +0000 Received: by poy.chewa.net (Postfix, from userid 33) id 4530796810; Fri, 23 Nov 2007 09:27:19 +0100 (CET) To: Brian E Carpenter Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-bagnulo-v6ops-6man-nat64-pb-statement-00.txt MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 09:27:19 +0100 From: Remi Denis-Courmont Cc: Christian Huitema , IPv6 Operations , marcelo bagnulo braun Organization: Remlab.net In-Reply-To: <474625B9.4040703@gmail.com> References: <474625B9.4040703@gmail.com> Message-ID: X-Sender: rdenis@simphalempin.com User-Agent: RoundCube Webmail/0.1-rc2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 769a46790fb42fbb0b0cc700c82f7081 On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 13:58:33 +1300, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > However, I'd like to hear from the SIP community on this point. > How will p2p SIP work in a mixed network? https://datatracker.ietf.org/drafts/draft-ietf-sipping-v6-transition/ chapter 4, in particular: Pragmatism dictates that IPv6 user agents undertake the greater burden in the transition period. Since IPv6 user agents are not widely deployed yet, it seems appropriate that IPv6 user agents obtain IPv4 addresses instead of mandating an upgrade on the installed IPv4 base. Furthermore, IPv6 user agents are expected to be dual-stacked and thus also support IPv4, unlike the larger IPv4- only user agent base that does not or cannot support IPv6. An IPv6 node SHOULD also be able to send and receive media using IPv4 addresses, but if it cannot, it SHOULD support STUN relay usage [8]. Such a relay allows the IPv6 node to indirectly send and receive media using IPv4. -- Rémi From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Nov 23 06:32:27 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IvWln-0002nm-48 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 23 Nov 2007 06:32:27 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IvWlj-0005By-0F for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 23 Nov 2007 06:32:26 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IvWh2-0000KZ-Vt for v6ops-data@psg.com; Fri, 23 Nov 2007 11:27:32 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [67.15.124.176] (helo=rakhan.thetiger.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IvWgr-0000If-Qk for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 23 Nov 2007 11:27:27 +0000 Received: from [10.0.1.100] (c211-28-94-237.smelb1.vic.optusnet.com.au [211.28.94.237]) by rakhan.thetiger.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 426C28A8651; Fri, 23 Nov 2007 04:40:12 -0600 (CST) Cc: "brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com" , IPv6 Operations , marcelo bagnulo braun Message-Id: From: David Miles To: Christian Huitema In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v915) Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-bagnulo-v6ops-6man-nat64-pb-statement-00.txt Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 22:27:12 +1100 References: <4744EFAE.4040700@cs.auckland.ac.nz> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.915) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: f607d15ccc2bc4eaf3ade8ffa8af02a0 On 22/11/2007, at 4:46 PM, Christian Huitema wrote: >>> In addition, as IPv4 public address space is >>> depleted, it will no longer possible to access to IPv4 public >>> addresses, making dual stack nodes even less attractive. >> >> Well, if I was implementing a new service, I would work very hard to >> get a public IPv4 address for it, so I don't think this argument >> works for servers and services for many years to come. It clearly >> will apply to client systems much sooner. So I'd rather see the >> problem expressed as: New populations of clients (and p2p hosts) >> that have no public IPv4 address, but do have plentiful public >> IPv6 addresses, which need to contact legacy servers (and p2p hosts) >> that have a public IPv4 address (possibly NATted) but no IPv6 >> capability. > > What P2P hosts are we speaking of, exactly? As far as I know, there > are very few PC-class hosts that cannot now run some form of IPv6, > using a transition technology like Teredo or 6to4. P2P applications > are thus very likely to use that. > > I suggest that we limit the scope of the problem to enabling IPv6 > only hosts to contact legacy IPv4 servers, assuming that these > servers in fact have a global IPv4 address. Smaller problems are > easier to solve... I'm strongly in favour of Dual Stack for this requirement - again, why introduce translation between IPv6 hosts and legacy servers when every OS I can think of that supports IPv6 also supports IPv4 through dual stack. My view is that Dual Stack adequately addresses the need for continued IPv4 support using existing techniques such as NAPT. After all, if we come up with a "translation" protocol for IPv6 to IPv4 then we have not absolved ourselves from solving the issue for non-IPv6 hosts. In an IPv4 address depleted world, non-IPv6 devices still need to work! Why have NAT (in the service provider) for IPv4 hosts, and IPv6-to- IPv4 translation for other hosts (likely both existing in the same household)? Is this not adding complexity for no obvious business benefit? The only scenario that I can see that we should at least discuss, is a day when IPv4 addresses are scarce to the point that one cannot assign a server a public v4 address, but we can assign it an IPv6 address. In this case an IPv6 host can communicate with the IPv6 server without issue, but an IPv4 client cannot. I have always wondered why we are so fascinated with NAT64 instead of the reverse, NAT46? Even if we did have NAT64 there is still a form of NAPT not dissimilar to today's IPv4 implementations, so why not just use NAPT in the service provider with Dual Stack? I'm all for limiting the scope as suggested, but I would like to table the issue of a legacy IPv4 host wishing to connect to an server that has a valid IPv6 address. Ie, an unsolicited inbound session from the IPv4 "client" to an IPv6 "server". Does anyone consider this a reasonable scenario to consider? -David From katia.Allahourian@localadslive.co.uk Fri Nov 23 07:10:00 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IvXM8-0003m6-UH for v6ops-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 23 Nov 2007 07:10:00 -0500 Received: from [88.226.207.88] (helo=[88.254.72.177]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IvXM8-0006rq-7h for v6ops-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 23 Nov 2007 07:10:00 -0500 Received: from YUNUS ([170.192.173.159]:23513 "EHLO YUNUS" smtp-auth: TLS-CIPHER: TLS-PEER-CN1: ) by [88.254.72.177] with ESMTP id S22XXOUKTBHHMYHE (ORCPT ); Fri, 23 Nov 2007 14:10:19 +0200 Message-ID: <000601c82dc9$c47f90b0$b148fe58@YUNUS> From: "katia Allahourian" To: Subject: tsalsgni Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2007 14:09:58 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0006_01C82DDA.880860B0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 2.1 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 9182cfff02fae4f1b6e9349e01d62f32 ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C82DDA.880860B0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-9" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable feel like a major player when you flex a rolex http://ipcopy.com/ ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C82DDA.880860B0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-9" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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This means people won't deploy IPv6 but will stick with > IPv4 even when the layers of NAT are piled on. > > With IPv6+NAT-PT on the other hand, the network can be IPv6-only > which has a number of benefits over an IPv4 network, especially when > IPv4 addresses are scarce. I disagree. This approach would require every host within the service provider's network to support IPv6. Further, I see a driver for IPv6 as described below - NAT breaks end-to-end connectivity, IPv6 provides an alternative. > > >> After all, if we come up with a "translation" protocol for IPv6 to >> IPv4 then we have not absolved ourselves from solving the issue for >> non-IPv6 hosts. > > Which issue? What will you do with those devices that do not support IPv6? > > >> In an IPv4 address depleted world, non-IPv6 devices still need to >> work! > > They do, you just can't add new ones. 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    ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C82E6C.6564A720-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Sat Nov 24 06:58:46 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ivteo-0006QE-U4 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 24 Nov 2007 06:58:46 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ivtek-0007lh-7B for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 24 Nov 2007 06:58:46 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ivtam-0009Vq-Fx for v6ops-data@psg.com; Sat, 24 Nov 2007 11:54:36 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-200.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,FH_HAS_XAIMC, RDNS_NONE,USER_IN_ALL_SPAM_TO,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [202.99.23.227] (helo=people.com.cn) by psg.com with smtp (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ivta8-0009TQ-Gu for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Sat, 24 Nov 2007 11:54:16 +0000 Received: from people.com.cn([127.0.0.1]) by people.com.cn(AIMC 2.9.5.8) with SMTP id jme247481bdb; Sat, 24 Nov 2007 20:06:53 +0800 Received: from megatron.ietf.org([156.154.16.145]) by people.com.cn(AIMC 2.9.5.8) with SMTP id jm2e4741eee6; Mon, 19 Nov 2007 23:43:57 +0800 Received: from megatron.ietf.org([156.154.16.145]) by people.com.cn(AIMC 2.9.5.8) with SMTP id AISP action; Mon, 19 Nov 2007 23:43:56 +0800 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iu8Q5-0005uR-3n; Mon, 19 Nov 2007 10:20:17 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iu8Ps-0005dk-JN for i-d-announce@ietf.org; Mon, 19 Nov 2007 10:20:04 -0500 Received: from ns0.neustar.com ([156.154.16.158]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iu8Pq-0000AO-7w for i-d-announce@ietf.org; Mon, 19 Nov 2007 10:20:04 -0500 Received: from stiedprstage1.ietf.org (stiedprstage1.va.neustar.com [10.31.47.10]) by ns0.neustar.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36105328CD; Mon, 19 Nov 2007 15:20:02 +0000 (GMT) Received: from ietf by stiedprstage1.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Iu8Pq-0002pO-41; Mon, 19 Nov 2007 10:20:02 -0500 Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" Mime-Version: 1.0 To: i-d-announce@ietf.org From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Message-Id: Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 10:20:02 -0500 X-Scan-Signature: b7b9551d71acde901886cc48bfc088a6 Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org Subject: I-D Action:draft-ietf-v6ops-teredo-security-concerns-01.txt X-BeenThere: i-d-announce@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Reply-To: internet-drafts@ietf.org List-Id: i-d-announce.ietf.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-AIMC-AUTH: (null) X-AIMC-MAILFROM: i-d-announce-bounces@ietf.org X-AIMC-AUTH: (null) X-AIMC-MAILFROM: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org X-Auto-Forward: jaglee@people.com.cn jag@kw.com.cn Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -1.3 (-) X-Scan-Signature: 14582b0692e7f70ce7111d04db3781c8 --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the IPv6 Operations Working Group of the IETF. Title : Teredo Security Concerns Author(s) : J. Hoagland, S. Krishnan Filename : draft-ietf-v6ops-teredo-security-concerns-01.txt Pages : 20 Date : 2007-11-16 Additional security concerns with Teredo are documented, beyond what is in RFC 4380. This is based on an independent analysis of Teredo's security implications. The primary intent of this document is to raise the awareness regarding the security issues in Teredo as deployed today. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-v6ops-teredo-security-concerns-01.txt To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce to change your subscription settings. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-ietf-v6ops-teredo-security-concerns-01.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-v6ops-teredo-security-concerns-01.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; Boundary="OtherAccess" --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; access-type="mail-server"; server="mailserv@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2007-11-19101115.I-D@ietf.org> ENCODING mime FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-v6ops-teredo-security-concerns-01.txt --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-v6ops-teredo-security-concerns-01.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2007-11-19101115.I-D\@ietf.org> --OtherAccess-- --NextPart Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ I-D-Announce mailing list I-D-Announce@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce --NextPart-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Sat Nov 24 06:59:21 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IvtfN-0006xN-I9 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 24 Nov 2007 06:59:21 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IvtfI-0007ma-Vj for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 24 Nov 2007 06:59:21 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IvtYB-0009FL-LW for v6ops-data@psg.com; Sat, 24 Nov 2007 11:51:55 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-200.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,FH_HAS_XAIMC, RDNS_NONE,USER_IN_ALL_SPAM_TO,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [202.99.23.227] (helo=people.com.cn) by psg.com with smtp (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IvtXb-0009Ci-2Y for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Sat, 24 Nov 2007 11:51:39 +0000 Received: from people.com.cn([127.0.0.1]) by people.com.cn(AIMC 2.9.5.8) with SMTP id jm12a47481de9; Sat, 24 Nov 2007 20:04:16 +0800 Received: from megatron.ietf.org([156.154.16.145]) by people.com.cn(AIMC 2.9.5.8) with SMTP id jm15247420753; Tue, 20 Nov 2007 01:27:05 +0800 Received: from megatron.ietf.org([156.154.16.145]) by people.com.cn(AIMC 2.9.5.8) with SMTP id AISP action; Tue, 20 Nov 2007 01:27:05 +0800 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=stiedprmman1.va.neustar.com) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iu8jF-0001I0-Kx; Mon, 19 Nov 2007 10:40:05 -0500 Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iu8jC-0001Hl-S8 for i-d-announce@ietf.org; Mon, 19 Nov 2007 10:40:02 -0500 Received: from ns1.neustar.com ([2001:503:c779:1a::9c9a:108a]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iu8jC-0001wO-FR for i-d-announce@ietf.org; Mon, 19 Nov 2007 10:40:02 -0500 Received: from stiedprstage1.ietf.org (stiedprstage1.va.neustar.com [10.31.47.10]) by ns1.neustar.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 498EC2AB68; Mon, 19 Nov 2007 15:40:02 +0000 (GMT) Received: from ietf by stiedprstage1.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1Iu8jC-0002xx-4M; Mon, 19 Nov 2007 10:40:02 -0500 Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" Mime-Version: 1.0 To: i-d-announce@ietf.org From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Message-Id: Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 10:40:02 -0500 X-Scan-Signature: 32b73d73e8047ed17386f9799119ce43 Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org Subject: I-D Action:draft-ietf-v6ops-scanning-implications-04.txt X-BeenThere: i-d-announce@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Reply-To: internet-drafts@ietf.org List-Id: i-d-announce.ietf.org List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-AIMC-AUTH: (null) X-AIMC-MAILFROM: i-d-announce-bounces@ietf.org X-AIMC-AUTH: (null) X-AIMC-MAILFROM: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org X-Auto-Forward: jaglee@people.com.cn jag@kw.com.cn Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -1.3 (-) X-Scan-Signature: a8a20a483a84f747e56475e290ee868e --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the IPv6 Operations Working Group of the IETF. Title : IPv6 Implications for Network Scanning Author(s) : T. Chown Filename : draft-ietf-v6ops-scanning-implications-04.txt Pages : 13 Date : 2007-11-19 The much larger default 64-bit subnet address space of IPv6 should in principle make traditional network (port) scanning techniques used by certain network worms or scanning tools less effective. While traditional network scanning probes (whether by individuals or automated via network worms) may become less common, administrators should be aware that attackers may use other techniques to discover IPv6 addresses on a target network, and thus they should also be aware of measures that are available to mitigate against them. This informational document discusses approaches that administrators could take when planning their site address allocation and management strategies as part of a defence-in-depth approach to network security. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-v6ops-scanning-implications-04.txt To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce to change your subscription settings. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-ietf-v6ops-scanning-implications-04.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-v6ops-scanning-implications-04.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; Boundary="OtherAccess" --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; access-type="mail-server"; server="mailserv@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2007-11-19103300.I-D@ietf.org> ENCODING mime FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-v6ops-scanning-implications-04.txt --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-v6ops-scanning-implications-04.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2007-11-19103300.I-D\@ietf.org> --OtherAccess-- --NextPart Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ I-D-Announce mailing list I-D-Announce@ietf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce --NextPart-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Sat Nov 24 07:32:36 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IvuBY-00005y-9Y for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 24 Nov 2007 07:32:36 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IvuBU-0000YF-Jv for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 24 Nov 2007 07:32:36 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ivu9K-000COh-E4 for v6ops-data@psg.com; Sat, 24 Nov 2007 12:30:18 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [195.30.1.100] (helo=moebius2.Space.Net) by psg.com with smtp (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ivu8l-000CKm-6c for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Sat, 24 Nov 2007 12:30:01 +0000 Received: (qmail 5707 invoked by uid 1007); 24 Nov 2007 12:29:41 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=testkey; d=space.net; b=U6+mxl5vC03+BaMFS1N1uulYcpXbh0dAQpHx2Uz02B+xqgKoME5jpCmVUiqU4pCk ; Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 13:29:41 +0100 From: Gert Doering To: David Miles Cc: Iljitsch van Beijnum , Christian Huitema , "brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com" , IPv6 Operations , marcelo bagnulo braun Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-bagnulo-v6ops-6man-nat64-pb-statement-00.txt Message-ID: <20071124122941.GW69215@Space.Net> References: <4744EFAE.4040700@cs.auckland.ac.nz> <60D3EBAB-8EAF-42EB-A3C4-F6620ABA273C@muada.com> <377916B1-F384-4361-8A5D-60ACA0951642@thetiger.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <377916B1-F384-4361-8A5D-60ACA0951642@thetiger.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-NCC-RegID: de.space Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 9182cfff02fae4f1b6e9349e01d62f32 Hi, On Sat, Nov 24, 2007 at 11:35:16AM +1100, David Miles wrote: > I'm somewhat confused - are you suggesting the operator runs two > versions of IP side by side? For the ISPs (as "Internet Operators") this is what I would expect to happen. In the core network, v4+v6 in parallel is not hard. Where it starts to cause more work is things like "getting firewall rules in sync" and such - but for the basic packet forwarding, this is really not a major problem. Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- Total number of prefixes smaller than registry allocations: 110584 SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (89) 32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Sat Nov 24 09:36:22 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ivw7K-00078S-D3 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 24 Nov 2007 09:36:22 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ivw7G-0004W6-Vt for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 24 Nov 2007 09:36:22 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ivw2H-000Lr6-85 for v6ops-data@psg.com; Sat, 24 Nov 2007 14:31:09 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.4 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [83.149.65.1] (helo=sequoia.muada.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ivw1e-000Lmz-W6 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Sat, 24 Nov 2007 14:30:49 +0000 Received: from [163.117.139.50] ([163.117.139.50]) (authenticated bits=0) by sequoia.muada.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id lAOEUKD1099447 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Sat, 24 Nov 2007 15:30:20 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from iljitsch@muada.com) Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org Message-Id: <197C9ADD-ECC7-4DAF-A529-5EFDA9FDF722@muada.com> From: Iljitsch van Beijnum To: Norbert Bollow In-Reply-To: <20071123155105.08D6D2202B6@quill.bollow.ch> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v915) Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-bagnulo-v6ops-6man-nat64-pb-statement-00.txt Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 13:12:36 +0100 References: <4744EFAE.4040700@cs.auckland.ac.nz> <60D3EBAB-8EAF-42EB-A3C4-F6620ABA273C@muada.com> <20071123155105.08D6D2202B6@quill.bollow.ch> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.915) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: a7d6aff76b15f3f56fcb94490e1052e4 On 23 nov 2007, at 16:51, Norbert Bollow wrote: > I think I'm getting convinced that your "modified NAT-PT" approach > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-van-beijnum-modified-nat-pt-02.txt > is essentially the way to go. > My only concern is that there is not much time left until IPv4 address > depletion will start causing real problems, and we don't even have a > "finished" RFC for "modified NAT-PT" yet. > How do you see the timeline with regard to getting more feedback on > this I-D, publishing the RFC, implementation and deployment? That's a good question. I haven't paid attention to any instances of the IETF moving fast with a protocol RFC, so I can pretty much only guess. But I'd say it would take about a year to reach consensus and a stable specification if there is sufficient interest, except that carving out a block of IPv4 space for the IPv4-to-IPv6 part could take more time. As for implementations: the IPv4-to-IPv6 part requires some changes to existing translators. The IPv6-to-IPv4 part probably doesn't, but I'm not completely sure about that. On the (IPv6) host side, the IPv4-to- IPv6 part can work for the most part without changes. But the IPv6-to- IPv4 part requires changes fairly deep inside the TCP/IP stack, which will probably take a considerable amount of time to roll out on operating systems like Windows and Mac OS even if Microsoft and Apple give this some priority. The problem here is that you don't get much benefit until both translators are deployed in the network and operating systems are modified to make use of them. Alternatively, individual ISPs could roll out translators in their network and provide customers with CPEs that perform IPv4-to-IPv6 translation as outlined in section 5 of the draft. These CPEs only have to implement SIIT without the NAT part plus some address management, so implementing that wouldn't have to take forever. The fact that both ends are under the control of the same entity will certainly help get things off the ground faster. 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    ------=_NextPart_000_5893_01C82EB7.A488A2D0-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Sat Nov 24 14:19:24 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iw0XE-00008g-N2 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 24 Nov 2007 14:19:24 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iw0X9-0006io-0O for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 24 Nov 2007 14:19:24 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Iw0Qw-000K74-RD for v6ops-data@psg.com; Sat, 24 Nov 2007 19:12:54 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.2 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RCVD_BAD_ID, RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [163.117.176.133] (helo=smtp03.uc3m.es) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Iw0Qe-000K5h-0d for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Sat, 24 Nov 2007 19:12:49 +0000 Received: from [192.168.1.129] (143.44.217.87.dynamic.jazztel.es [87.217.44.143])(using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits))(No client certificate requested)by smtp03.uc3m.es (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9ED6E24EF06;Sat, 24 Nov 2007 20:12:31 +0100 (CET) In-Reply-To: <4744ED7C.7020307@gmail.com> References: <4744ED7C.7020307@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Cc: IPv6 Operations Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: marcelo bagnulo braun Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-bagnulo-v6ops-6man-nat64-pb-statement-00.txt Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 20:12:30 +0100 To: Brian E Carpenter X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) X-imss-version: 2.049 X-imss-result: Passed X-imss-scanInfo: M:B L:E SM:2 X-imss-tmaseResult: TT:1 TS:-12.3252 TC:1F TRN:67 TV:5.0.1023(15566.000) X-imss-scores: Clean:100.00000 C:0 M:0 S:0 R:0 X-imss-settings: Baseline:1 C:1 M:1 S:1 R:1 (0.0000 0.0000) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Scan-Signature: b280b4db656c3ca28dd62e5e0b03daa8 El 22/11/2007, a las 3:46, Brian E Carpenter escribi=F3: > I guess we're going to discuss this draft on only > one list? This one? > >> 1. Introduction >> RFC 4966 published on July 2007 deprecates the NAT-PT tool, the >> mechanism defined by the IETF to enable communications between =20 >> IPv4 >> only nodes with IPv6 only nodes, letting the dual-stack =20 >> approach as >> the preferred mechanism to enable nodes to be able to communicate >> with v6 and v4 nodes. However, there are several reasons why the >> dual stack approach may not be adequate for a number of scenarios. >> For once, the dual-stack approach imposes the management of two >> networks in a site, the v6 one and the v4 one, increasing the =20 >> costs >> of using IPv6. > > > I think that's a very weak argument in the next few years. The vast > majority of deployments will be dual stack routing - can you seriously > imagine doing anything else? If you want to make this argument, it =20 > should > surely be made only as a long term consideration. > but if you hav to do v4, why would you even bother doing v6 at all? =20 It is merely an additional cost >> In addition, as IPv4 public address space is >> depleted, it will no longer possible to access to IPv4 public >> addresses, making dual stack nodes even less attractive. > > Well, if I was implementing a new service, I would work very hard to > get a public IPv4 address for it, so I don't think this argument > works for servers and services for many years to come. It clearly > will apply to client systems much sooner. So I'd rather see the > problem expressed as: New populations of clients (and p2p hosts) > that have no public IPv4 address, but do have plentiful public > IPv6 addresses, which need to contact legacy servers (and p2p hosts) > that have a public IPv4 address (possibly NATted) but no IPv6 =20 > capability. > > I don't think that changes the technical scenario. > >> 3. Supported application behavior >> The general purpose of NAT64 type of mechanisms is to enable >> communication between a v4-only node and a v6-only node. However, >> there is wide range of type of communication, when considering how >> they handle the IP addresses. > > That's true. But are we really aiming to solve all the scenarios > you describe? It seems to me that we probably can't, because > in any case the only safe assumption is that the legacy IPv4 system > is sitting behind a NAPT. And in any case, if we have a translator > with one IPv4 address fronting for 1000 IPv6 hosts, we automatically > inherit *all* the issues of NAPT, including dynamic port mapping > and the need for application level gateways for any address-dependent > applications. but current nat traversal mechanisms enable some of these forms of =20 communication even through nats, right? maybe the requirement should be that we support all the application =20 behavours that are currently supported by v4 nat traversal =20 techniques, (as oposed to just support the application behaviours =20 supported by v4 nats) regards, marcelo > > Therefore, is there any point in having any goals that go beyond > "doing no more damage to connectivity than NAPT44 does today"? > > In any case I am sure that we will end up with NAPT64, not NAT64. > Port mapping is inevitable. > > Brian From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Sat Nov 24 14:20:58 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iw0Yk-0001P5-7j for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 24 Nov 2007 14:20:58 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iw0Yg-0006ng-U5 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 24 Nov 2007 14:20:58 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Iw0X7-000KiF-Oo for v6ops-data@psg.com; Sat, 24 Nov 2007 19:19:17 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.2 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RCVD_BAD_ID, RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [163.117.176.132] (helo=smtp02.uc3m.es) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Iw0Ww-000Kgb-BW for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Sat, 24 Nov 2007 19:19:12 +0000 Received: from [192.168.1.129] (143.44.217.87.dynamic.jazztel.es [87.217.44.143])(using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits))(No client certificate requested)by smtp02.uc3m.es (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96F87264453;Sat, 24 Nov 2007 20:19:04 +0100 (CET) In-Reply-To: References: <4744EFAE.4040700@cs.a uckland.ac.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <0A6D2D69-8539-43FC-A4D0-8FD1DABB51FD@it.uc3m.es> Cc: "brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com" , IPv6Operations Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: marcelo bagnulo braun Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-bagnulo-v6ops-6man-nat64-pb-statement-00.txt Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 20:19:03 +0100 To: Christian Huitema X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) X-imss-version: 2.049 X-imss-result: Passed X-imss-scanInfo: M:B L:E SM:2 X-imss-tmaseResult: TT:1 TS:-15.7547 TC:1F TRN:41 TV:5.0.1023(15566.000) X-imss-scores: Clean:100.00000 C:0 M:0 S:0 R:0 X-imss-settings: Baseline:1 C:1 M:1 S:1 R:1 (0.0000 0.0000) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Scan-Signature: 769a46790fb42fbb0b0cc700c82f7081 El 22/11/2007, a las 6:46, Christian Huitema escribi=F3: >>> In addition, as IPv4 public address space is >>> depleted, it will no longer possible to access to IPv4 public >>> addresses, making dual stack nodes even less attractive. >> >> Well, if I was implementing a new service, I would work very hard to >> get a public IPv4 address for it, so I don't think this argument >> works for servers and services for many years to come. It clearly >> will apply to client systems much sooner. So I'd rather see the >> problem expressed as: New populations of clients (and p2p hosts) >> that have no public IPv4 address, but do have plentiful public >> IPv6 addresses, which need to contact legacy servers (and p2p hosts) >> that have a public IPv4 address (possibly NATted) but no IPv6 >> capability. > > What P2P hosts are we speaking of, exactly? As far as I know, there =20= > are very few PC-class hosts that cannot now run some form of IPv6, =20 > using a transition technology like Teredo or 6to4. P2P applications =20= > are thus very likely to use that. > > I suggest that we limit the scope of the problem to enabling IPv6 =20 > only hosts to contact legacy IPv4 servers, assuming that these =20 > servers in fact have a global IPv4 address. Smaller problems are =20 > easier to solve... but this is what basic NAT-PT (FC 2766) does and the actual =20 limitations why it was moved to historic don't apply to the basic NAT-=20= PT but to the extended scenario, when it supports communications from =20= v4 to v6... so, one option would be to just cut the basic nat pt of RFC 2766 and =20 just standarize that part (again) Regards, marcelo > > -- Christian Huitema > > From demuynckphu@friendship-bray.org Sat Nov 24 18:38:25 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iw4Zt-0005SI-7d for v6ops-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 24 Nov 2007 18:38:25 -0500 Received: from [75.137.249.220] (helo=unknown.al.charter.com) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iw4Zs-00018K-Ds for v6ops-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 24 Nov 2007 18:38:24 -0500 Received: from jballa24 by friendship-bray.org with ASMTP id 2D2FA138 for ; Sat, 24 Nov 2007 17:38:39 -0600 Received: from jballa24 ([128.143.176.105]) by friendship-bray.org with ESMTP id 7E21D02169D7 for ; Sat, 24 Nov 2007 17:38:39 -0600 Message-ID: <000801c82ef3$165f63e0$44fe894b@jballa24> From: "Lonnie demuynck" To: Subject: nenmrt Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 17:38:16 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0004_01C82EC0.CBC4F3E0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 2.1 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 2409bba43e9c8d580670fda8b695204a ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C82EC0.CBC4F3E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Stunning product: for less than $200 you get a quality watch! = http://www.swardy.com/ ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C82EC0.CBC4F3E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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    ------=_NextPart_000_2324E_01C82F39.3B4247E0-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Sun Nov 25 05:03:22 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IwEKg-000377-3P for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 25 Nov 2007 05:03:22 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IwEKd-0006RB-Mv for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 25 Nov 2007 05:03:22 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IwEEb-0007JG-Qv for v6ops-data@psg.com; Sun, 25 Nov 2007 09:57:05 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,DATE_IN_PAST_12_24, RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [83.149.65.1] (helo=sequoia.muada.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IwEEQ-0007Ie-PJ for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Sun, 25 Nov 2007 09:57:00 +0000 Received: from [192.168.1.8] (din-221-71-130-217.ipcom.comunitel.net [217.130.71.221] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by sequoia.muada.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id lAP9qFv6014851 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Sun, 25 Nov 2007 10:56:44 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from iljitsch@muada.com) Cc: IPv6 Operations Message-Id: <6694D10C-76CA-4CFC-9C8B-E360EC8A5F60@muada.com> From: Iljitsch van Beijnum To: David Miles In-Reply-To: <377916B1-F384-4361-8A5D-60ACA0951642@thetiger.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v915) Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-bagnulo-v6ops-6man-nat64-pb-statement-00.txt Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 22:35:57 +0100 References: <4744EFAE.4040700@cs.auckland.ac.nz> <60D3EBAB-8EAF-42EB-A3C4-F6620ABA273C@muada.com> <377916B1-F384-4361-8A5D-60ACA0951642@thetiger.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.915) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -2.2 (--) X-Scan-Signature: c1c65599517f9ac32519d043c37c5336 On 24 nov 2007, at 1:35, David Miles wrote: >>> After all, if we come up with a "translation" protocol for IPv6 to >>> IPv4 then we have not absolved ourselves from solving the issue >>> for non-IPv6 hosts. >> Which issue? > What will you do with those devices that do not support IPv6? Today, the assumption is that all services are available over IPv4. I expect this situation to continue for some time, probably even one or two years beyond the moment that the first IPv4 address request must go unsatisfied because of the depletion. During that time, IPv4-only hosts shouldn't have any problems, except of course those introduced by measures to conserve IPv4 addresses such as NAT. At some point, either some services will be available over IPv4 and some over IPv6, or the assumption will be that all services are availble over IPv6. At that point, IPv4 hosts will need to use additional mechanisms but they'll still probably have trouble reaching certain services. This is a natural consequence of not adopting new technologies within a reasonable timeframe, and I don't think the IETF should go out of its way to create workarounds for this. >>> In an IPv4 address depleted world, non-IPv6 devices still need to >>> work! >> They do, you just can't add new ones. > I'm somewhat confused - are you suggesting the operator runs two > versions of IP side by side? Every ISP that is in business today obviously runs IPv4. In my opinion, they should also be running IPv6 within the next three years. So that would be a "yes". However, if I were to build an enterprise network, I would certainly see if I could limit IPv4 to the places where the services run and only do IPv6 in the access part. Running just IPv6 is simpler because addressing issues pretty much go away: there is no need for routes running OSPF etc to have addresses in the same IP subnet. You have more subnets than VLANs, simply encode the VLAN ID in the subnet bits and you've numbered all your IP subnets. Each of those is a /64 so they can all hold as many hosts as you can cram into them, no need to think about how large to make a subnet. With EUI-64 addressesing, you don't have to keep track of which router holds the .1 address, which holds the .2 address and so on. From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Sun Nov 25 05:05:27 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IwEMh-0003MD-F6 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 25 Nov 2007 05:05:27 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IwEMe-0006Ti-26 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 25 Nov 2007 05:05:27 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IwELK-0007tn-BL for v6ops-data@psg.com; Sun, 25 Nov 2007 10:04:02 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.0 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [83.149.65.1] (helo=sequoia.muada.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IwEL9-0007t7-A9 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Sun, 25 Nov 2007 10:03:56 +0000 Received: from [192.168.1.8] (din-221-71-130-217.ipcom.comunitel.net [217.130.71.221] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by sequoia.muada.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id lAP9qFvA014851 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Sun, 25 Nov 2007 10:56:55 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from iljitsch@muada.com) Cc: IPv6 Operations Message-Id: <5594E961-2F56-44A2-A650-A3729EDF0BA9@muada.com> From: Iljitsch van Beijnum To: David Miles In-Reply-To: <377916B1-F384-4361-8A5D-60ACA0951642@thetiger.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v915) Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-bagnulo-v6ops-6man-nat64-pb-statement-00.txt Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 10:54:19 +0100 References: <4744EFAE.4040700@cs.auckland.ac.nz> <60D3EBAB-8EAF-42EB-A3C4-F6620ABA273C@muada.com> <377916B1-F384-4361-8A5D-60ACA0951642@thetiger.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.915) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: c1c65599517f9ac32519d043c37c5336 On 24 nov 2007, at 1:35, David Miles wrote: >>> After all, if we come up with a "translation" protocol for IPv6 to >>> IPv4 then we have not absolved ourselves from solving the issue >>> for non-IPv6 hosts. >> Which issue? > What will you do with those devices that do not support IPv6? Today, the assumption is that all services are available over IPv4. I expect this situation to continue for some time, probably even one or two years beyond the moment that the first IPv4 address request must go unsatisfied because of the depletion. During that time, IPv4-only hosts shouldn't have any problems, except of course those introduced by measures to conserve IPv4 addresses such as NAT. At some point, either some services will be available over IPv4 and some over IPv6, or the assumption will be that all services are availble over IPv6. At that point, IPv4 hosts will need to use additional mechanisms but they'll still probably have trouble reaching certain services. This is a natural consequence of not adopting new technologies within a reasonable timeframe, and I don't think the IETF should go out of its way to create workarounds for this. >>> In an IPv4 address depleted world, non-IPv6 devices still need to >>> work! >> They do, you just can't add new ones. > I'm somewhat confused - are you suggesting the operator runs two > versions of IP side by side? Every ISP that is in business today obviously runs IPv4. In my opinion, they should also be running IPv6 within the next three years. So that would be a "yes". However, if I were to build an enterprise network, I would certainly see if I could limit IPv4 to the places where the services run and only do IPv6 in the access part. Running just IPv6 is simpler because addressing issues pretty much go away: there is no need for routes running OSPF etc to have addresses in the same IP subnet. You have more subnets than VLANs, simply encode the VLAN ID in the subnet bits and you've numbered all your IP subnets. Each of those is a /64 so they can all hold as many hosts as you can cram into them, no need to think about how large to make a subnet. With EUI-64 addressesing, you don't have to keep track of which router holds the .1 address, which holds the .2 address and so on. 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    ------=_NextPart_000_4A77_01C82F80.83D9FD80-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Sun Nov 25 13:08:50 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IwLuU-0001Eo-Bg for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 25 Nov 2007 13:08:50 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IwLuQ-0003It-Ck for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 25 Nov 2007 13:08:50 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IwLn1-000LXm-2Z for v6ops-data@psg.com; Sun, 25 Nov 2007 18:01:07 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [193.251.214.119] (helo=out1.laposte.net) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IwLmm-000LVw-8p for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Sun, 25 Nov 2007 18:01:01 +0000 Received: from meplus.info (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mwinf8206.laposte.net (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id F36D9700008B for ; Sun, 25 Nov 2007 19:00:46 +0100 (CET) Received: from wwinf8301 (unknown [10.98.49.10]) by mwinf8206.laposte.net (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id D0EB67000089 for ; Sun, 25 Nov 2007 19:00:46 +0100 (CET) X-ME-UUID: 20071125180046855.D0EB67000089@mwinf8206.laposte.net From: "despres.remi" Reply-To: despres.remi@laposte.net To: v6ops Message-ID: <9758668.582241196013646828.JavaMail.www@wwinf8301> Subject: "DNS-4to6 automatic mapping" - No more DNS-ALGs & 6then4 DNS queries MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Originating-IP: [90.2.4.154] X-Wum-Nature: EMAIL-NATURE X-WUM-FROM: |~| X-WUM-TO: |~| X-WUM-REPLYTO: |~| Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 19:00:46 +0100 (CET) X-me-spamlevel: not-spam X-me-spamrating: 38.119253 Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 50a516d93fd399dc60588708fd9a3002 Currently proposed solutions for IPv6-only to IPv4-only connectivity include some specific DNS processing, at the application layer, outside the DNS itself : DNS-ALGs in various NAT-PTs; duplicated DNS queries (IPv6 and IPv4) in IPv6-capable applications and/or stacks). The result is significant complexity (with timers in particular), additional traffic across the network, and potential operational problems with DNS ALGs. Also, one can see on the Web recommendations that IPv6 capable applications, Firefox in particular, should DISABLE IPv6 (!!!). The reason is that DNS queries to reach IPv4-only hosts are in two steps instead of one : one for an IPv6 address, failing most of the time, and, only then, one for an IPv4 address, succeeding most of the time. All this is UNFORTUNATE but, being avoidable as shown below, IMHO SHOULD BE AVOIDED in the future). For this, let's specify that a next release of the DNS sotware (BIND and others) will have to include a DNS-4to6 AUTOMATIC MAPPING. With it, an IPv6 RR is automatically created, within the DNS, for each existing IPv4 RR, using for this the *mapped address format* of RFC 2373. There is no scalability issue, this being a "one-time" processing. Deployment of this DNS automatic mapping is simply the deployment of a new release of the DNS software (a fairly wellknown process). Then : - IPv6-only applications on dual stacks will work using IPv4 transport without knowing about it.(The answer to their IPv6 request is in fact an IPv4 address, in the format recognized by the lower layer dual stack to sel= ect IPv4 transport). - IPv4-IPv6 applications will no longer need a second DNS query to reach IPv4-only hosts. This seems to me as simple and effective as a Columbus egg. If this is wrong, please describe why. And if this is right, how could this proceed in Vancouver? (I cannot be there). Regards. R=C3=A9mi Cr=C3=A9ez votre adresse =C3=A9lectronique pr=C3=A9nom.nom@laposte.net=20 1 Go d'espace de stockage, anti-spam et anti-virus int=C3=A9gr=C3=A9s. From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Sun Nov 25 16:53:06 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IwPPW-00088r-0O for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 25 Nov 2007 16:53:06 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IwPPR-0000AL-HW for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 25 Nov 2007 16:53:05 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IwPJr-000H5L-Eq for v6ops-data@psg.com; Sun, 25 Nov 2007 21:47:15 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [131.107.115.212] (helo=smtp.microsoft.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IwPJg-000H4M-R8 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Sun, 25 Nov 2007 21:47:10 +0000 Received: from tk5-exhub-c103.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.70.186) by TK5-EXGWY-E801.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.50) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.222.3; Sun, 25 Nov 2007 13:46:34 -0800 Received: from TK5-EXMLT-W604.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com (157.54.18.7) by tk5-exhub-c103.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.70.186) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 8.1.222.3; Sun, 25 Nov 2007 13:47:04 -0800 Received: from NA-EXMSG-W602.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.196]) by TK5-EXMLT-W604.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com ([157.54.18.7]) with mapi; Sun, 25 Nov 2007 13:47:03 -0800 From: Christian Huitema To: "despres.remi@laposte.net" , v6ops Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 13:46:58 -0800 Subject: RE: "DNS-4to6 automatic mapping" - No more DNS-ALGs & 6then4 DNS queries Thread-Topic: "DNS-4to6 automatic mapping" - No more DNS-ALGs & 6then4 DNS queries Thread-Index: Acgvj4qhlfIsZiAHTJ6qA76zVp11TQAG3QGQ Message-ID: References: <9758668.582241196013646828.JavaMail.www@wwinf8301> In-Reply-To: <9758668.582241196013646828.JavaMail.www@wwinf8301> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; 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( [130.216.38.124]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id j6sm2789211wah.2007.11.25.16.36.38 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Sun, 25 Nov 2007 16:36:40 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <474A1514.5020801@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 13:36:36 +1300 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Windows/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: marcelo bagnulo braun CC: IPv6 Operations Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-bagnulo-v6ops-6man-nat64-pb-statement-00.txt References: <4744ED7C.7020307@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: a87a9cdae4ac5d3fbeee75cd0026d632 Marcelo, On 2007-11-25 08:12, marcelo bagnulo braun wrote: >=20 > El 22/11/2007, a las 3:46, Brian E Carpenter escribi=C3=B3: >=20 >> I guess we're going to discuss this draft on only >> one list? This one? >> >>> 1. Introduction >>> RFC 4966 published on July 2007 deprecates the NAT-PT tool, the >>> mechanism defined by the IETF to enable communications between IPv= 4 >>> only nodes with IPv6 only nodes, letting the dual-stack approach a= s >>> the preferred mechanism to enable nodes to be able to communicate >>> with v6 and v4 nodes. However, there are several reasons why the >>> dual stack approach may not be adequate for a number of scenarios.= >>> For once, the dual-stack approach imposes the management of two >>> networks in a site, the v6 one and the v4 one, increasing the cost= s >>> of using IPv6. >> >> >> I think that's a very weak argument in the next few years. The vast >> majority of deployments will be dual stack routing - can you seriously= >> imagine doing anything else? If you want to make this argument, it sho= uld >> surely be made only as a long term consideration. >> >=20 > but if you hav to do v4, why would you even bother doing v6 at all? It = > is merely an additional cost When an ISP can no longer assign IPv4 addresses to new customers, it will= undoubtedly run v4 and v6 in coexistence to service old and new customers= respectively. At that point it will certainly be running major services like email, http (proxy) and VoIP in dual stack mode - the question is ho= w to deal with services that aren't naturally dual stacked. >=20 >>> In addition, as IPv4 public address space is >>> depleted, it will no longer possible to access to IPv4 public >>> addresses, making dual stack nodes even less attractive. >> >> Well, if I was implementing a new service, I would work very hard to >> get a public IPv4 address for it, so I don't think this argument >> works for servers and services for many years to come. It clearly >> will apply to client systems much sooner. So I'd rather see the >> problem expressed as: New populations of clients (and p2p hosts) >> that have no public IPv4 address, but do have plentiful public >> IPv6 addresses, which need to contact legacy servers (and p2p hosts) >> that have a public IPv4 address (possibly NATted) but no IPv6 capabili= ty. >> >> I don't think that changes the technical scenario. >> >>> 3. Supported application behavior >>> The general purpose of NAT64 type of mechanisms is to enable >>> communication between a v4-only node and a v6-only node. However,= >>> there is wide range of type of communication, when considering how= >>> they handle the IP addresses. >> >> That's true. But are we really aiming to solve all the scenarios >> you describe? It seems to me that we probably can't, because >> in any case the only safe assumption is that the legacy IPv4 system >> is sitting behind a NAPT. And in any case, if we have a translator >> with one IPv4 address fronting for 1000 IPv6 hosts, we automatically >> inherit *all* the issues of NAPT, including dynamic port mapping >> and the need for application level gateways for any address-dependent >> applications. > but current nat traversal mechanisms enable some of these forms of=20 > communication even through nats, right? >=20 > maybe the requirement should be that we support all the application=20 > behavours that are currently supported by v4 nat traversal techniques, = > (as oposed to just support the application behaviours supported by v4 n= ats) Yes. It's another "first do no harm" requirement. Brian >> >> Therefore, is there any point in having any goals that go beyond >> "doing no more damage to connectivity than NAPT44 does today"? >> >> In any case I am sure that we will end up with NAPT64, not NAT64. >> Port mapping is inevitable. >> >> Brian >=20 >=20 From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Sun Nov 25 19:43:35 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IwS4V-0007Ay-Cs for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 25 Nov 2007 19:43:35 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IwS4P-0004Gc-TJ for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 25 Nov 2007 19:43:35 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IwS2w-0004gY-8t for v6ops-data@psg.com; Mon, 26 Nov 2007 00:41:58 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [209.85.198.185] (helo=rv-out-0910.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IwS2a-0004fc-NU for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 26 Nov 2007 00:41:52 +0000 Received: by rv-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id b22so488435rvf for ; Sun, 25 Nov 2007 16:41:32 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:organization:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=h8y14kwpTN6CnMLTDR/P5QjliNINGf0fN9sjosmi1iQ=; b=Hi1jETmJMiUQMZANXLYYzPmeFHQgJztr6qBVHFfsfDpesYvMELoVQ6EN3vRgs5Mj7M65l67dWveWnl7sToLYr4pnXkKApfjKTpsnrT4r+81eA4f/ZMWIn9Gn8hb950i3DKJn5mJlKIMEhGA5nwWFCyaMRnhAS1cQHQZHU3xJEcE= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=received:message-id:date:from:organization:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=HttmLgl6qQ+BcoLC9pW8Yi+43STGl86KwILtISr//TuECM/XKWw8JafFQRSP2SjpafRJo06x5WnhkfJo4ZqBhs5MFPcfyop1QYYKtWeOsuAArOCiOY4aqt9phcwry15DBBKu/2g68tgxPaVqnLqsaRN05H6bCg5A//H8fCSoTC8= Received: by 10.114.106.1 with SMTP id e1mr627098wac.1196037692239; Sun, 25 Nov 2007 16:41:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?130.216.38.124? ( [130.216.38.124]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id k26sm2819923waf.2007.11.25.16.41.29 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Sun, 25 Nov 2007 16:41:31 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <474A1637.3000202@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 13:41:27 +1300 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Windows/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: David Miles CC: Christian Huitema , IPv6 Operations , marcelo bagnulo braun Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-bagnulo-v6ops-6man-nat64-pb-statement-00.txt References: <4744EFAE.4040700@cs.auckland.ac.nz> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: b4a0a5f5992e2a4954405484e7717d8c On 2007-11-24 00:27, David Miles wrote: > > On 22/11/2007, at 4:46 PM, Christian Huitema wrote: > >>>> In addition, as IPv4 public address space is >>>> depleted, it will no longer possible to access to IPv4 public >>>> addresses, making dual stack nodes even less attractive. >>> >>> Well, if I was implementing a new service, I would work very hard to >>> get a public IPv4 address for it, so I don't think this argument >>> works for servers and services for many years to come. It clearly >>> will apply to client systems much sooner. So I'd rather see the >>> problem expressed as: New populations of clients (and p2p hosts) >>> that have no public IPv4 address, but do have plentiful public >>> IPv6 addresses, which need to contact legacy servers (and p2p hosts) >>> that have a public IPv4 address (possibly NATted) but no IPv6 >>> capability. >> >> What P2P hosts are we speaking of, exactly? As far as I know, there >> are very few PC-class hosts that cannot now run some form of IPv6, >> using a transition technology like Teredo or 6to4. P2P applications >> are thus very likely to use that. >> >> I suggest that we limit the scope of the problem to enabling IPv6 only >> hosts to contact legacy IPv4 servers, assuming that these servers in >> fact have a global IPv4 address. Smaller problems are easier to solve... > > I'm strongly in favour of Dual Stack for this requirement - again, why > introduce translation between IPv6 hosts and legacy servers when every > OS I can think of that supports IPv6 also supports IPv4 through dual stack. Because, as already noted, some IPv6-capable hosts (whether servers or P2P participants) may find themselves stuck in an IPv4-only world. I'd guess that many Vista hosts are in this situation today. > My view is that Dual Stack adequately addresses the need for continued > IPv4 support using existing techniques such as NAPT. After all, if we > come up with a "translation" protocol for IPv6 to IPv4 then we have not > absolved ourselves from solving the issue for non-IPv6 hosts. In an IPv4 > address depleted world, non-IPv6 devices still need to work! Why have > NAT (in the service provider) for IPv4 hosts, and IPv6-to-IPv4 > translation for other hosts (likely both existing in the same > household)? Is this not adding complexity for no obvious business benefit? > > The only scenario that I can see that we should at least discuss, is a > day when IPv4 addresses are scarce to the point that one cannot assign a > server a public v4 address, but we can assign it an IPv6 address. In > this case an IPv6 host can communicate with the IPv6 server without > issue, but an IPv4 client cannot. I have always wondered why we are so > fascinated with NAT64 instead of the reverse, NAT46? Even if we did have > NAT64 there is still a form of NAPT not dissimilar to today's IPv4 > implementations, so why not just use NAPT in the service provider with > Dual Stack? > > I'm all for limiting the scope as suggested, but I would like to table > the issue of a legacy IPv4 host wishing to connect to an server that has > a valid IPv6 address. Ie, an unsolicited inbound session from the IPv4 > "client" to an IPv6 "server". > > Does anyone consider this a reasonable scenario to consider? Absolutely, that is the inbound scenario in the Shanti draft, for example. 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    ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C8300B.863D58C0-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Nov 26 00:46:25 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IwWnZ-0001hn-5f for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 26 Nov 2007 00:46:25 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IwWnW-0002w2-KM for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 26 Nov 2007 00:46:25 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IwWhe-0000gO-G2 for v6ops-data@psg.com; Mon, 26 Nov 2007 05:40:18 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [64.233.162.226] (helo=nz-out-0506.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IwWhT-0000fe-NM for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 26 Nov 2007 05:40:12 +0000 Received: by nz-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id i11so263785nzh for ; Sun, 25 Nov 2007 21:40:07 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.142.100.1 with SMTP id x1mr192253wfb.1196055606226; Sun, 25 Nov 2007 21:40:06 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.142.246.19 with HTTP; Sun, 25 Nov 2007 21:40:06 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <67099930711252140w9322f24h2e6037e7deabad45@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 21:40:06 -0800 From: "Erik Kline" To: "Christian Huitema" Subject: Re: "DNS-4to6 automatic mapping" - No more DNS-ALGs & 6then4 DNS queries Cc: "despres.remi@laposte.net" , v6ops In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <9758668.582241196013646828.JavaMail.www@wwinf8301> Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 8abaac9e10c826e8252866cbe6766464 On 11/25/07, Christian Huitema wrote: > > For this, let's specify that a next release of the DNS sotware (BIND and > > others) will have to include a DNS-4to6 AUTOMATIC MAPPING. > > With it, an IPv6 RR is automatically created, within the DNS, for each > > existing IPv4 RR, using for this the *mapped address format* of RFC > > 2373. > > You can achieve pretty much the same result by placing the A records in the additional section of responses to AAAA queries, without creating a need for mapped addresses. This could be done very simply, but changing DNS implementations for IPv6 capable servers will only solve part of the operational problems encountered today. > > The worst case scenario happens when the target domain's server does not know about IPv6, and treat arrival of AAAA requests as some kind of error. Poorly implemented error paths lead can lead to bad behavior. For example, some servers responded with "no such name" instead of "no such record", leading clients to mistakenly abort HTTP queries. This is a much worse problem than simply having to repeat a query! > > These operational problems are direct consequences of the current IETF recommendation to always ask first for the AAAA record if the client is IPv6 capable. This is a very aggressive stance, designed to maximize the occurrence of IPv6 connections. If we wanted to smooth transition, we could take a softer stance, e.g. let dual-stack hosts only send AAAA queries if it can reasonably presume that the target server is IPv6 capable. Out of curiosity: how would a machine determine what it can "reasonably presume" to be IPv6 capable? Some locally administrated policy directives for the host's resolver? Separately: I wonder if there was any discussion of creating a DNS rr query type with the essential meaning "A*", i.e. give me A records, AAAA, A6 (while they were being tried), hence A*. (If there already is such a thing I apologize profusely for my ignorance.) The host or application can then decide what to do with the returned results according to local policy as implemented/implementable by the local resolver. Of course the same could be done with a single packet exchange if the server could be relied upon to place extra records of the non-queried-for type in the response, but saying that a multiple-address-family-capable machine makes an A* query (instead of AAAA) codifies the behaviour. Random thought, I know. -Erik From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Nov 26 04:49:09 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IwaaT-0006IL-Am for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 26 Nov 2007 04:49:09 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IwaaN-0000lg-Lz for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 26 Nov 2007 04:49:09 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IwaUs-000ILR-87 for v6ops-data@psg.com; Mon, 26 Nov 2007 09:43:22 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.4 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [83.149.65.1] (helo=sequoia.muada.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IwaUh-000IKw-4L for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 26 Nov 2007 09:43:16 +0000 Received: from nirrti.it.uc3m.es (nirrti.it.uc3m.es [163.117.139.50]) (authenticated bits=0) by sequoia.muada.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id lAQ9gNXK034805 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Mon, 26 Nov 2007 10:42:26 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from iljitsch@muada.com) Cc: "Christian Huitema" , "despres.remi@laposte.net" , v6ops Message-Id: <306EA0BF-BA92-400F-9E7C-7ED11AB6B963@muada.com> From: Iljitsch van Beijnum To: Erik Kline In-Reply-To: <67099930711252140w9322f24h2e6037e7deabad45@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v915) Subject: Re: "DNS-4to6 automatic mapping" - No more DNS-ALGs & 6then4 DNS queries Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 10:42:22 +0100 References: <9758668.582241196013646828.JavaMail.www@wwinf8301> <67099930711252140w9322f24h2e6037e7deabad45@mail.gmail.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.915) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: c3a18ef96977fc9bcc21a621cbf1174b On 26 nov 2007, at 6:40, Erik Kline wrote: >>> For this, let's specify that a next release of the DNS sotware >>> (BIND and >>> others) will have to include a DNS-4to6 AUTOMATIC MAPPING. >>> With it, an IPv6 RR is automatically created, within the DNS, for >>> each >>> existing IPv4 RR, using for this the *mapped address format* of RFC >>> 2373. The question is: do we really have a problem? Yes, people recommend turning off IPv6 on forums here and there, but this used to be because there were some DNS servers out there that would reply with an error when queried for AAAA records. That problem has been solved 99.9%, unless I'm mistaken. Also, apparently turning off IPv6 helps agains all kinds of problems that are provably IPv6- unrelated. I think any effort would be better spent by making sure OSes don't send AAAA queries when there is no IPv6 connectivity. >> You can achieve pretty much the same result by placing the A >> records in the additional section of responses to AAAA queries, >> without creating a need for mapped addresses. This could be done >> very simply, but changing DNS implementations for IPv6 capable >> servers will only solve part of the operational problems >> encountered today. Right. >> These operational problems are direct consequences of the current >> IETF recommendation to always ask first for the AAAA record if the >> client is IPv6 capable. This is a very aggressive stance, designed >> to maximize the occurrence of IPv6 connections. If we wanted to >> smooth transition, we could take a softer stance, e.g. let dual- >> stack hosts only send AAAA queries if it can reasonably presume >> that the target server is IPv6 capable. > Out of curiosity: how would a machine determine what it can > "reasonably presume" to be IPv6 capable? Some locally administrated > policy directives for the host's resolver? Indeed. There is no way to know that without asking for AAAA records. The problem with implementing new features that aren't actually used (which is what happens if you prefer A records - something Windows users can do manually using the policy table, by the way) is that over time broken behavior grows and then when usage finally occurs it doesn't work. Examples: - HTTP pipelining - ECN bits - path MTU discovery And so on. If people don't want to use IPv6 they should either disable the protocol or set up an appropriate RFC 3484 policy table. If IPv6 connectivity is available, the only reasonable thing to do is prefer that by default. > > Separately: I wonder if there was any discussion of creating a DNS rr > query type with the essential meaning "A*", i.e. give me A records, > AAAA, A6 (while they were being tried), hence A*. There already is a * query type but I gather that trouble with that is that it won't go out and make sure that copies of all possible records are available, if there is something in the cache you get that. The problem with a new query type is that you could end up asking for: A* AAAA A Which takes longer than: AAAA A But again: do we really have a problem? The first query can take some time because the delegation tree must be traversed at least partially, but after that the following query(ies) can go directly to the authorative server so the delay is minimal. From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Nov 26 07:42:30 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IwdIE-0000im-QW for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 26 Nov 2007 07:42:30 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IwdI8-0004hy-9Q for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 26 Nov 2007 07:42:30 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IwdE1-0004PE-NI for v6ops-data@psg.com; Mon, 26 Nov 2007 12:38:09 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [67.15.124.176] (helo=rakhan.thetiger.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IwdDq-0004OG-LH for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 26 Nov 2007 12:38:04 +0000 Received: from [10.0.1.100] (c211-28-94-237.smelb1.vic.optusnet.com.au [211.28.94.237]) by rakhan.thetiger.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B502B8A8651; Mon, 26 Nov 2007 05:50:48 -0600 (CST) Cc: IPv6 Operations Message-Id: <0CA776CF-3462-41E7-B7F8-94EA03C94E74@thetiger.com> From: David Miles To: Iljitsch van Beijnum In-Reply-To: <5594E961-2F56-44A2-A650-A3729EDF0BA9@muada.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v915) Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-bagnulo-v6ops-6man-nat64-pb-statement-00.txt Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 23:37:49 +1100 References: <4744EFAE.4040700@cs.auckland.ac.nz> <60D3EBAB-8EAF-42EB-A3C4-F6620ABA273C@muada.com> <377916B1-F384-4361-8A5D-60ACA0951642@thetiger.com> <5594E961-2F56-44A2-A650-A3729EDF0BA9@muada.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.915) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 3002fc2e661cd7f114cb6bae92fe88f1 I had not considered the example of the enterprise where what you describe makes a lot of sense. From a carrier perspective once we move to dual-stack it seems unlikely that we would move towards an alternative for v4 (be it NAT64 or other). I suspect that once dual-stack has been adopted a carrier would be reluctant to change as there is minimal (financial) effort. In the enterprise space it would seem reasonable to do as you suggest, to employ NAT64 given the majority of the applications would be v6- enabled. This leaves the question of NAT46 and what role it should play in a transition? Once we pass the point of v4/v6 equilibrium are there cases where legacy IPv4 devices may wish to access resources that can only support unsolicited inbound connections over IPv6 (servers). The alternative to use a public IPv4 address may not be possible if v4 is in short supply. As always adoption of technology will be driven by three related attributes: cost, complexity and benefit (or revenue for a carrier). For a new network who's applications can be mostly IPv6 (and where OS support a v6-only approach) it may make sense to avoid IPv4 completely. For a network which supports applications that are predominately IPv4 a change to IPv6 with translation would be difficult to justify, and I'd think we are more likely to see a dual- stack approach. Regards, -David On 25/11/2007, at 8:54 PM, Iljitsch van Beijnum wrote: > On 24 nov 2007, at 1:35, David Miles wrote: > >>>> After all, if we come up with a "translation" protocol for IPv6 >>>> to IPv4 then we have not absolved ourselves from solving the >>>> issue for non-IPv6 hosts. > >>> Which issue? > >> What will you do with those devices that do not support IPv6? > > Today, the assumption is that all services are available over IPv4. > I expect this situation to continue for some time, probably even one > or two years beyond the moment that the first IPv4 address request > must go unsatisfied because of the depletion. During that time, IPv4- > only hosts shouldn't have any problems, except of course those > introduced by measures to conserve IPv4 addresses such as NAT. > > At some point, either some services will be available over IPv4 and > some over IPv6, or the assumption will be that all services are > availble over IPv6. At that point, IPv4 hosts will need to use > additional mechanisms but they'll still probably have trouble > reaching certain services. This is a natural consequence of not > adopting new technologies within a reasonable timeframe, and I don't > think the IETF should go out of its way to create workarounds for > this. > >>>> In an IPv4 address depleted world, non-IPv6 devices still need to >>>> work! > >>> They do, you just can't add new ones. > >> I'm somewhat confused - are you suggesting the operator runs two >> versions of IP side by side? > > Every ISP that is in business today obviously runs IPv4. In my > opinion, they should also be running IPv6 within the next three > years. So that would be a "yes". However, if I were to build an > enterprise network, I would certainly see if I could limit IPv4 to > the places where the services run and only do IPv6 in the access > part. Running just IPv6 is simpler because addressing issues pretty > much go away: there is no need for routes running OSPF etc to have > addresses in the same IP subnet. You have more subnets than VLANs, > simply encode the VLAN ID in the subnet bits and you've numbered all > your IP subnets. Each of those is a /64 so they can all hold as many > hosts as you can cram into them, no need to think about how large to > make a subnet. With EUI-64 addressesing, you don't have to keep > track of which router holds the .1 address, which holds the .2 > address and so on. > From Kjell-tavosian@theripoffs.co.uk Mon Nov 26 10:09:44 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iwfah-0007nJ-W5 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 26 Nov 2007 10:09:44 -0500 Received: from [194.250.38.69] (helo=[194.250.38.69]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iwfah-0002gT-KO for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 26 Nov 2007 10:09:43 -0500 Received: by 10.161.137.79 with SMTP id kgqvnNvUrjQTx; Mon, 26 Nov 2007 16:09:47 +0100 (GMT) Received: by 192.168.107.195 with SMTP id wQslxyrwrGdjKp.8299693398388; Mon, 26 Nov 2007 16:09:45 +0100 (GMT) Message-ID: <000a01c8303e$5f94c4f0$4526fac2@daoNantes> From: "Kjell tavosian" To: Subject: niste Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 16:09:42 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0009_01C83046.C1592CF0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Antivirus: avast! 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    ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C83046.C1592CF0-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Nov 26 13:27:07 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iwifj-0004Qv-4M for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 26 Nov 2007 13:27:07 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iwifg-0007kb-KR for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 26 Nov 2007 13:27:07 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IwiZo-0008QC-EX for v6ops-data@psg.com; Mon, 26 Nov 2007 18:21:00 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [193.251.214.121] (helo=out3.laposte.net) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IwiZd-0008OL-2D for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 26 Nov 2007 18:20:54 +0000 Received: from meplus.info (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mwinf8304.laposte.net (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 94DC17000087 for ; Mon, 26 Nov 2007 19:20:47 +0100 (CET) Received: from wwinf8203 (unknown [10.98.50.10]) by mwinf8304.laposte.net (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 3E6747000084; Mon, 26 Nov 2007 19:20:47 +0100 (CET) X-ME-UUID: 20071126182047255.3E6747000084@mwinf8304.laposte.net From: "despres.remi" Reply-To: despres.remi@laposte.net To: Christian Huitema Cc: v6ops Message-ID: <29233178.237931196101247085.JavaMail.www@wwinf8203> Subject: RE: "DNS-4to6 automatic mapping" - No more DNS-ALGs & 6then4 DNS queries MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Originating-IP: [90.44.11.114] X-Wum-Nature: EMAIL-NATURE X-WUM-FROM: |~| X-WUM-TO: |~| X-WUM-CC: |~| X-WUM-REPLYTO: |~| Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 19:20:47 +0100 (CET) X-me-spamlevel: not-spam X-me-spamrating: 58.206247 Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 082a9cbf4d599f360ac7f815372a6a15 Christian Huitema wrote : > > For this, let's specify that a next release of the DNS sotware (BIND an= d > > others) will have to include a DNS-4to6 AUTOMATIC MAPPING. > > With it, an IPv6 RR is automatically created, within the DNS, for each > > existing IPv4 RR, using for this the *mapped address format* of RFC > > 2373. In my understanding, the solution I propose has the following advantages, c= ompared to your alternative: - It lets IPv6 only applications to be "really" IPv6-only, and yet to be = able to use IPv4 transport if they are in a host having dual stack transpor= t. - Rather than"creating a need for mapped addresses", my solution is simpl= y an application of RFC 2553 section 3.7 ("Compatibility with Ipv4 nodes"). - It requires no change of any protocol (the DNS response format remains = as is). - It requires no change in host software. > You can achieve pretty much the same result by placing the A records in t= he additional section of responses to AAAA queries, without creating a need= for mapped addresses. This could be done very simply, but changing DNS imp= lementations for IPv6 capable servers will only solve part of the operation= al problems encountered today. I suppose you are not suggesting that existence of other problems, even if = they are worse, would justify not to make IPv6-only applications possible. IMO, bugged DNS servers have to be fixed (otherwise standards lose their po= wer). =20 > The worst case scenario happens when the target domain's server does not = know about IPv6, and treat arrival of AAAA requests as some kind of error. = Poorly implemented error paths lead can lead to bad behavior. For example, = some servers responded with "no such name" instead of "no such record", lea= ding clients to mistakenly abort HTTP queries. This is a much worse problem= than simply having to repeat a query! >=20 > These operational problems are direct consequences of the current IETF re= commendation to always ask first for the AAAA record if the client is IPv6 = capable. This is a very aggressive stance, designed to maximize the occurre= nce of IPv6 connections. If we wanted to smooth transition, we could take a= softer stance, e.g. let dual-stack hosts only send AAAA queries if it can = reasonably presume that the target server is IPv6 capable. The "current IETF recommendation" seems to me the "right one". It favors a return to real End-to-End operation, using IPv6, while IPv4-add= ress shortage has led to wide-spread NAT traversal. As such it can be seen as favoring progress toward the paradise of a "simpl= e again Internet". Regards. R=C3=A9mi Cr=C3=A9ez votre adresse =C3=A9lectronique pr=C3=A9nom.nom@laposte.net=20 1 Go d'espace de stockage, anti-spam et anti-virus int=C3=A9gr=C3=A9s. 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    ------=_NextPart_000_22235F_01C860EC.FEF92BB0-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Nov 27 11:52:03 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ix3fH-0001oL-OD for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 27 Nov 2007 11:52:03 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ix3fF-0006sZ-Dn for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 27 Nov 2007 11:52:03 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ix3Z4-000M9B-E8 for v6ops-data@psg.com; Tue, 27 Nov 2007 16:45:38 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [171.71.176.71] (helo=sj-iport-2.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ix3YU-000M48-NX for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 27 Nov 2007 16:45:20 +0000 Received: from sj-dkim-1.cisco.com ([171.71.179.21]) by sj-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 27 Nov 2007 08:44:58 -0800 Received: from sj-core-4.cisco.com (sj-core-4.cisco.com [171.68.223.138]) by sj-dkim-1.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id lARGiwUQ023415 for ; Tue, 27 Nov 2007 08:44:58 -0800 Received: from xbh-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-211.cisco.com [171.70.151.144]) by sj-core-4.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id lARGivnf020494 for ; Tue, 27 Nov 2007 16:44:58 GMT Received: from xfe-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com ([171.70.151.174]) by xbh-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Tue, 27 Nov 2007 08:44:57 -0800 Received: from [10.32.244.220] ([10.32.244.220]) by xfe-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Tue, 27 Nov 2007 08:44:57 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <6AA5E709-AC6F-43CA-81B0-6BD28F938112@cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed To: IETF V6OPS WG From: Fred Baker Subject: Agenda for IETF 70 Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 08:44:55 -0800 X-Pgp-Agent: GPGMail 1.1.2 (Tiger) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) X-OriginalArrivalTime: 27 Nov 2007 16:44:57.0814 (UTC) FILETIME=[D84DBF60:01C83114] DKIM-Signature: v=0.5; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=6652; t=1196181898; x=1197045898; c=relaxed/simple; s=sjdkim1004; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=fred@cisco.com; z=From:=20Fred=20Baker=20 |Subject:=20Agenda=20for=20IETF=2070 |Sender:=20; bh=sd9CAMu57Igvc3W8fVB4B8nc12mRmJ2r9empTPBlUe8=; b=qq+mHwUyCI3pw/D6GJyw3ZLj/aQ2ZFV8WZaIcPogNuK9o2FOOpWTZwS7fWgV9JuCHqRDToWV QqXMQ2Ka5waxZ8Lh3Ab2/yo3TSfpkOTqtNeAJPrSNwk6tKPF3OUnuabR30Rfh5coT7nvKfqYIR M/9yE2LC8Qmso0cYsA+veJ5OY=; Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-1; header.From=fred@cisco.com; dkim=pass (si g from cisco.com/sjdkim1004 verified; ); Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: f2984bf50fb52a9e56055f779793d783 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 IPv6 Operations will meet twice during IETF 70, once for our normal discussions, and once to discuss the status of the IPv4-IPv6 transition. This is the proposed agenda. IPv6 Operations "normal" meeting: Monday, 3 December, 3:20 PM 1. Opening 5 min - Agenda approval 2. Document status 30 mins - draft-ietf-v6ops-802-16-deployment-scenarios-04 - draft-ietf-v6ops-scanning-implications-04 - draft-ietf-v6ops-addcon-07 - draft-ietf-v6ops-addr-select-ps-02 - draft-ietf-v6ops-addr-select-req-04 - draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-for-ipv6-03 - draft-ietf-v6ops-cpe-simple-security-00 3. draft-chown-v6ops-rogue-ra-00 20 mins 4. draft-vandevelde-v6ops-ra-guard-00 20 mins 5. draft-krishnan-v6ops-teredo-update-00.txt and 20 mins draft-ietf-v6ops-teredo-security-concerns-01 IPv6 Transition discussion: Thursday 6 December, 1:00 PM 1. Opening 10 mins - Agenda Bashing - Introductory remarks 2. Requirements - Jordi Palet 10 mins current IPv6 volume (RIPE talk redux) - Marcello Bagnulo 10 mins draft-bagnulo-v6ops-6man-nat64-pb-statement - Alain Durand 10 mins draft-durand-v6ops-natv4v6v4 - Elwyn Davies 10 mins requirements based on RFC 4966 3. Possible solutions - Iljitsch van Beijnum 20 mins draft-van-beijnum-modified-nat-pt-02.txt draft-carpenter-shanti-01.txt 4. Summary of discussion 10 mins Fred Baker 5. AD-led discussion of the problems and possible solutions Jari Arkko, Ron Bonica Objective: v6ops to produce combined document describing requirements for a solution. current documents: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bagnulo-v6ops-6man-nat64-pb-statement "IPv6 - IPv4 Translators (NAT64) - Problem Statement and Analysis", Marcelo Bagnulo, 13-Nov-07, http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-chown-v6ops-rogue-ra "Rogue IPv6 Router Advertisement Problem Statement", Tim Chown, Stig Venaas, 12-Nov-07, http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-durand-v6ops-natv4v6v4 "Non dual-stack IPv6 deployments for broadband providers", Alain Durand, 13-Nov-07, http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-v6ops-addcon "IPv6 Unicast Address Assignment Considerations", Gunter Van de Velde, Chip Popoviciu, Tim Chown, Olaf Bonness, Christian Hahn, 7-Nov-07, http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-v6ops-addr-select-ps "Problem Statement of Default Address Selection in Multi-prefix Environment: Operational Issues of RFC3484 Default Rules", Arifumi Matsumoto, 12-Oct-07, http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-v6ops-addr-select-req "Requirements for address selection mechanisms", Arifumi Matsumoto, 8-Nov-07, http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-for-ipv6 "Special-Use IPv6 Addresses", Marc Blanchet, 5-Oct-07, http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-v6ops-scanning-implications "IPv6 Implications for Network Scanning", Tim Chown, 19-Nov-07, http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-v6ops-teredo-security-concerns "Teredo Security Concerns", James Hoagland, Suresh Krishnan, 16- Nov-07, http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-krishnan-v6ops-teredo-update "Teredo Security Updates", Suresh Krishnan, James Hoagland, 16- Nov-07, http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-vandevelde-v6ops-ra-guard "IPv6 RA-Guard", Gunter Van de Velde, Eric Levy-Abegnoli, Chip Popoviciu, Janos Mohacsi, 12-Nov-07, Older documents: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-arifumi-v6ops-addr-select-sol "Solution approaches for address-selection problems", Arifumi Matsumoto, 15-Jun-07, moved to 6man http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-baker-v6ops-b2b-private-routing "Business to Business Private Routing", Fred Baker, 3-Jul-07, dead, at least for the moment http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-blanchet-v6ops-tunnelbroker-tsp "IPv6 Tunnel Broker with the Tunnel Setup Protocol (TSP)", Florent Parent, Marc Blanchet, 2-Sep-05, transition http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hoagland-v6ops-teredosecconcerns "Teredo Security Concerns Beyond What Is In RFC 4380", Suresh Krishnan, James Hoagland, 12-Jul-07, to be discussed http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-v6ops-802-16-deployment-scenarios "IPv6 Deployment Scenarios in 802.16 Networks", Myung-Ki Shin, 27- Apr-07, Ron's in-box http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-v6ops-cpe-simple-security "Recommended Simple Security Capabilities in Customer Premises Equipment for Providing Residential IPv6 Internet Service", James Woodyatt, 15- Jun-07, not clear what the state is http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-massar-v6ops-heartbeat "SixXS Heartbeat Protocol", Jeroen Massar, 6-Jun-05, transition http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-nward-v6ops-teredo-server-selection "Teredo Server Selection", Nathan Ward, 3-Jul-07, transition http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-van-beijnum-v6ops-connect-method "IPv4/IPv6 Interoperation Using the HTTP CONNECT Method", Iljitsch van Beijnum, 5-Jul-07, not sure what to do with this -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iD8DBQFHTEmHbjEdbHIsm0MRAtb6AKDrYE0a35bzmF7LZ1auJpkibHAV7QCgrstD 0HeKkUzAAVEZ8xr/rFfXx80= =Yh0H -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From RolandosomeonellTran@toostupidtobepresident.com Wed Nov 28 02:17:27 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IxHAk-0003qL-Rl; Wed, 28 Nov 2007 02:17:26 -0500 Received: from 209.4.111.218.kmr02-home.tm.net.my ([218.111.4.209] helo=twmacc03.twm.server) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IxHAk-0005ti-7G; Wed, 28 Nov 2007 02:17:26 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by host11953752.toostupidtobepresident.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with SMTP id b6p5sAfg82.660460.g6n.PFB.1557024551286 for ; Wed, 28 Nov 2007 15:16:58 -0800 Message-ID: From: "Timmy Boone" To: , =20

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    ------=_NextPart_000_725C_01C8323A.C362C060-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Wed Nov 28 22:55:04 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IxaUS-0006Dr-9L for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 28 Nov 2007 22:55:04 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IxaUQ-0007kg-Rr for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 28 Nov 2007 22:55:04 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IxaNZ-0006P0-T4 for v6ops-data@psg.com; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 03:47:57 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [60.234.76.2] (helo=unobtainium.braintrust.co.nz) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IxaNO-0006NR-1P for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 03:47:51 +0000 Received: from madison.local (122-57-163-24.jetstream.xtra.co.nz [122.57.163.24]) by unobtainium.braintrust.co.nz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94E6B27DEE for ; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 16:47:43 +1300 (NZDT) Received: from localhost by madison.local (PGP Universal service); Thu, 29 Nov 2007 16:47:43 +1300 X-PGP-Universal: processed; by madison.local on Thu, 29 Nov 2007 16:47:43 +1300 Message-Id: From: Nathan Ward To: v6ops In-Reply-To: <306EA0BF-BA92-400F-9E7C-7ED11AB6B963@muada.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v915) Subject: Re: "DNS-4to6 automatic mapping" - No more DNS-ALGs & 6then4 DNS queries Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 16:45:40 +1300 References: <9758668.582241196013646828.JavaMail.www@wwinf8301> <67099930711252140w9322f24h2e6037e7deabad45@mail.gmail.com> <306EA0BF-BA92-400F-9E7C-7ED11AB6B963@muada.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.915) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: ea4ac80f790299f943f0a53be7e1a21a On 26/11/2007, at 10:42 PM, Iljitsch van Beijnum wrote: > > The question is: do we really have a problem? > > Yes, people recommend turning off IPv6 on forums here and there, but > this used to be because there were some DNS servers out there that > would reply with an error when queried for AAAA records. That > problem has been solved 99.9%, unless I'm mistaken. Also, apparently > turning off IPv6 helps agains all kinds of problems that are > provably IPv6-unrelated. > > I think any effort would be better spent by making sure OSes don't > send AAAA queries when there is no IPv6 connectivity. I agree with this. The major case that I see is Windows firing up 6to4 when it has a non- RFC1918 address, when it's connectivity is filtered or NATed. What other common cases are there, that are not due to misconfiguration (i.e. IPv6 `default' route configured on an interface/ link without IPv6 transit doesn't count). -- Nathan Ward From tenjoy@qdhuaxia.com Wed Nov 28 23:17:52 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IxaqW-0003lm-6u; Wed, 28 Nov 2007 23:17:52 -0500 Received: from [201.50.158.245] (helo=micro) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IxaqV-00033I-9p; Wed, 28 Nov 2007 23:17:52 -0500 Received: from [201.50.158.245] by mail.qdhuaxia.com; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 01:17:45 -0300 From: "Maryellen Elkins" To: Subject: Eraser Sun Software Cave Square Space Shuttle Sandwich Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 01:17:45 -0300 Message-ID: <01c83225$a58ab990$f59e32c9@tenjoy> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.3790.2663 Importance: Normal X-Spam-Score: 2.1 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 2870a44b67ee17965ce5ad0177e150f4 No need to shop anywhere else for the holidays http://alyssakohnkq.googlepages.com From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Wed Nov 28 23:30:22 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ixb2c-0001z0-Mu for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 28 Nov 2007 23:30:22 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ixb2a-0004kU-7F for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 28 Nov 2007 23:30:22 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IxazO-0008Yk-8M for v6ops-data@psg.com; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 04:27:02 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [66.210.111.62] (helo=ttfdesk.fries.net) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ixayr-0008WW-2M for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 04:26:45 +0000 Received: from ttfdesk.fries.net (todd@localhost.fries.net [127.0.0.1]) by ttfdesk.fries.net (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id lAT4QM85030439; Wed, 28 Nov 2007 22:26:22 -0600 (CST) Received: (from todd@localhost) by ttfdesk.fries.net (8.14.1/8.14.1/Submit) id lAT4QLZP009441; Wed, 28 Nov 2007 22:26:21 -0600 (CST) X-Authentication-Warning: ttfdesk.fries.net: todd set sender to todd@fries.net using -f Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 22:26:21 -0600 From: "Todd T. Fries" To: Nathan Ward Cc: v6ops Subject: Re: "DNS-4to6 automatic mapping" - No more DNS-ALGs & 6then4 DNS queries Message-ID: <20071129042620.GD12385@fries.net> Reply-To: todd@fries.net References: <9758668.582241196013646828.JavaMail.www@wwinf8301> <67099930711252140w9322f24h2e6037e7deabad45@mail.gmail.com> <306EA0BF-BA92-400F-9E7C-7ED11AB6B963@muada.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Operating-System: OpenBSD ttfdesk.fries.net 4.2 20071128-GENERIC X-PGP-Fingerprint: B6 3B 70 46 BC 0F 8C DD 14 D4 C7 D1 47 F6 23 FA X-URL: http://todd.fries.net X-tra-email: todd@{fries.net,OpenBSD.org} toddfries@gmail.com X-IM: toddfries:AIM 115268457:ICQ todd@fries.net:MSN X-Jabber: toddfries@gmail.com User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.17 (2007-11-01) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 538aad3a3c4f01d8b6a6477ca4248793 I'm sorry, turning off IPv6 routing does not imply the userland should not and cannot query for v6 addresses. That's just bogus. The operating system can inform the application that the v6 address has no route, and the application can try the next address, just as if it were a v4 host with multiple v4 addresses, and the first one is not reachable, only faster, because no default route means the application will get notified much sooner. Thanks, -- Todd Fries .. todd@fries.net _____________________________________________ | \ 1.636.410.0632 (voice) | Free Daemon Consulting, LLC \ 1.405.227.9094 (voice) | http://FreeDaemonConsulting.com \ 1.866.792.3418 (FAX) | "..in support of free software solutions." \ 250797 (FWD) | \ \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ 37E7 D3EB 74D0 8D66 A68D B866 0326 204E 3F42 004A http://todd.fries.net/pgp.txt Penned by Nathan Ward on 20071129 16:45.40, we have: > On 26/11/2007, at 10:42 PM, Iljitsch van Beijnum wrote: >> >> The question is: do we really have a problem? >> >> Yes, people recommend turning off IPv6 on forums here and there, but this >> used to be because there were some DNS servers out there that would reply >> with an error when queried for AAAA records. That problem has been solved >> 99.9%, unless I'm mistaken. Also, apparently turning off IPv6 helps agains >> all kinds of problems that are provably IPv6-unrelated. >> >> I think any effort would be better spent by making sure OSes don't send >> AAAA queries when there is no IPv6 connectivity. > > > I agree with this. > The major case that I see is Windows firing up 6to4 when it has a > non-RFC1918 address, when it's connectivity is filtered or NATed. > > What other common cases are there, that are not due to misconfiguration > (i.e. IPv6 `default' route configured on an interface/link without IPv6 > transit doesn't count). > > -- > Nathan Ward > > > > From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Nov 29 03:05:09 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IxeOT-0002I5-9U for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 03:05:09 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IxeOR-0005U0-HU for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 03:05:09 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IxeIk-000IdA-Hj for v6ops-data@psg.com; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 07:59:14 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [195.30.1.100] (helo=moebius2.Space.Net) by psg.com with smtp (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IxeIA-000IbN-JI for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 07:58:56 +0000 Received: (qmail 42809 invoked by uid 1007); 29 Nov 2007 07:58:34 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=testkey; d=space.net; b=YMy+O2gbIeMatxrm1j1kWSQTZ6QbigMtvVhQoyiN1HuV87Z2M5LOgJF+CA13gz95 ; Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 08:58:34 +0100 From: Gert Doering To: "Todd T. Fries" Cc: Nathan Ward , v6ops Subject: Re: "DNS-4to6 automatic mapping" - No more DNS-ALGs & 6then4 DNS queries Message-ID: <20071129075834.GP69215@Space.Net> References: <9758668.582241196013646828.JavaMail.www@wwinf8301> <67099930711252140w9322f24h2e6037e7deabad45@mail.gmail.com> <306EA0BF-BA92-400F-9E7C-7ED11AB6B963@muada.com> <20071129042620.GD12385@fries.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20071129042620.GD12385@fries.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-NCC-RegID: de.space Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: e5ba305d0e64821bf3d8bc5d3bb07228 Hi, On Wed, Nov 28, 2007 at 10:26:21PM -0600, Todd T. Fries wrote: > I'm sorry, turning off IPv6 routing does not imply the userland should not > and cannot query for v6 addresses. That's just bogus. There's a difference between "the application explicitely asks for AAAA records" and "the application wants to connect to a given host, by whatever means" in the first case, it's clear that the operating system has no reason to stand in the application's way. In the second case, querying for AAAA/A6 addresses makes not very much sense if the OS *knows* that it has no way to actually reach such an address (e.g.: the IPv6 stack is not loaded). Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- Total number of prefixes smaller than registry allocations: 110584 SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. 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    ------=_NextPart_000_8733A_01C83278.70AE6200-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Nov 29 06:23:50 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IxhUk-0004mn-3V for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 06:23:50 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IxhUh-0005sX-S1 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 06:23:50 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IxhOZ-0002Ia-Jm for v6ops-data@psg.com; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 11:17:27 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [194.242.114.73] (helo=poy.chewa.net) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IxhOO-0002I5-OD for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 11:17:22 +0000 Received: by poy.chewa.net (Postfix, from userid 33) id 2A2659681E; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 12:17:15 +0100 (CET) To: todd@fries.net Subject: Re: "DNS-4to6 automatic mapping" - No more DNS-ALGs & 6then4 DNSqueries MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 12:17:15 +0100 From: Remi Denis-Courmont Cc: Nathan Ward , v6ops Organization: Remlab.net In-Reply-To: <20071129042620.GD12385@fries.net> References: <20071129042620.GD12385@fries.net> Message-ID: <873669b00789260010a85fd50b0d6823@chewa.net> X-Sender: rdenis@simphalempin.com User-Agent: RoundCube Webmail/0.1-rc2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: b4a0a5f5992e2a4954405484e7717d8c On Wed, 28 Nov 2007 22:26:21 -0600, "Todd T. Fries" wrote: > I'm sorry, turning off IPv6 routing does not imply the userland should not > and cannot query for v6 addresses. That's just bogus. The operating > system > can inform the application that the v6 address has no route, and the > application can try the next address, just as if it were a v4 host with > multiple v4 addresses, and the first one is not reachable, only faster, > because no default route means the application will get notified much > sooner. Like it or not, just about every major dual-stackable operating system "fail" to query AAAA RRs if the host has no IPv6 address except for loopback and link-local ones. There are simply way too many broken DNS servers and somewhat-DNS-aware middleboxes in the field that screw up on AAAA queries. Besides, if an application really wants to resolve a name to an IPv6 address, it can probably request it explicitly (e.g. hints.ai_family = PF_INET6 with getaddrinfo()). Still, from a connectivity perspective, you would normally not be using DNS for loopback (::1). And you simply cannot use DNS for link-local addressing, since link-local addresses require a host-specific scope, which DNS cannot provide. Since this part of the problem is essentially fixed in the field, I think the main remaining issue is what Nathan describes - lame automatic 6to4 deployment. -- Rémi From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Nov 29 07:23:21 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IxiQL-0007ng-Nj for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 07:23:21 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IxiQK-00033r-Tp for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 07:23:21 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IxiNI-0006za-L5 for v6ops-data@psg.com; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 12:20:12 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.2 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [66.210.104.252] (helo=FreeDaemonHosting.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IxiMi-0006uh-EM for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 12:19:56 +0000 Received: from pf.FreeDaemonHosting.com (localhost.theshop.net [IPv6:::1]) by FreeDaemonHosting.com (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id lATCJSnv020596; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 06:19:28 -0600 (CST) Received: (from todd@localhost) by pf.FreeDaemonHosting.com (8.14.1/8.14.1/Submit) id lATCJPW1032690; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 06:19:25 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 06:19:25 -0600 From: "Todd T. Fries" To: Gert Doering Cc: Nathan Ward , v6ops Subject: Re: "DNS-4to6 automatic mapping" - No more DNS-ALGs & 6then4 DNS queries Message-ID: <20071129121924.GA14065@fries.net> Reply-To: todd@fries.net References: <9758668.582241196013646828.JavaMail.www@wwinf8301> <67099930711252140w9322f24h2e6037e7deabad45@mail.gmail.com> <306EA0BF-BA92-400F-9E7C-7ED11AB6B963@muada.com> <20071129042620.GD12385@fries.net> <20071129075834.GP69215@Space.Net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20071129075834.GP69215@Space.Net> X-Operating-System: OpenBSD pf.FreeDaemonHosting.com 4.2 GENERIC X-PGP-Fingerprint: B6 3B 70 46 BC 0F 8C DD 14 D4 C7 D1 47 F6 23 FA X-URL: http://todd.fries.net X-tra-email: todd@{fries.net,OpenBSD.org} toddfries@gmail.com X-IM: toddfries:AIM 115268457:ICQ todd@fries.net:MSN X-Jabber: toddfries@gmail.com User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.12-2006-07-14 X-FDH-MailScanner-Information: http://FreeDaemonHosting.com/MailScanner.html X-FDH-MailScanner: clean X-FDH-MailScanner-From: todd@pf.freedaemonhosting.com Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 3e15cc4fdc61d7bce84032741d11c8e5 Make all the distinguishing you wish. The bottom line is that OpenBSD userland unconditionally enables IPv6 regardless if the kernel supports it or not. If there is no v6 default route, v6 fails quickly and seamlessly back to v4 (telnet, ftp, ssh, etc) and behaves sanely. I do not see why mandating different is productive for a future of v6 deployment. -- Todd Fries .. todd@fries.net _____________________________________________ | \ 1.636.410.0632 (voice) | Free Daemon Consulting, LLC \ 1.405.227.9094 (voice) | http://FreeDaemonConsulting.com \ 1.866.792.3418 (FAX) | "..in support of free software solutions." \ 1.700.227.9094 (IAXTEL) | \ 250797 (FWD) \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ 37E7 D3EB 74D0 8D66 A68D B866 0326 204E 3F42 004A http://todd.fries.net/pgp.txt Penned by Gert Doering on 20071129 8:58.34, we have: | Hi, | | On Wed, Nov 28, 2007 at 10:26:21PM -0600, Todd T. Fries wrote: | > I'm sorry, turning off IPv6 routing does not imply the userland should not | > and cannot query for v6 addresses. That's just bogus. | | There's a difference between | | "the application explicitely asks for AAAA records" | | and | | "the application wants to connect to a given host, by whatever means" | | in the first case, it's clear that the operating system has no reason | to stand in the application's way. | | In the second case, querying for AAAA/A6 addresses makes not very much | sense if the OS *knows* that it has no way to actually reach such an | address (e.g.: the IPv6 stack is not loaded). | | Gert Doering | -- NetMaster | -- | Total number of prefixes smaller than registry allocations: 110584 | | SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard | Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann | D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) | Tel: +49 (89) 32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Nov 29 07:31:16 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IxiY0-0000xH-NQ for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 07:31:16 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IxiXz-0005AT-O5 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 07:31:16 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IxiWT-0007fy-V4 for v6ops-data@psg.com; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 12:29:41 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.2 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [66.210.104.252] (helo=FreeDaemonHosting.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IxiVi-0007cZ-Nb for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 12:29:25 +0000 Received: from pf.FreeDaemonHosting.com (localhost.theshop.net [IPv6:::1]) by FreeDaemonHosting.com (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id lATCSl6n021817; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 06:28:47 -0600 (CST) Received: (from todd@localhost) by pf.FreeDaemonHosting.com (8.14.1/8.14.1/Submit) id lATCSkHW018821; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 06:28:46 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 06:28:46 -0600 From: "Todd T. Fries" To: Remi Denis-Courmont Cc: Nathan Ward , v6ops Subject: Re: "DNS-4to6 automatic mapping" - No more DNS-ALGs & 6then4 DNSqueries Message-ID: <20071129122846.GC14065@fries.net> Reply-To: todd@fries.net References: <20071129042620.GD12385@fries.net> <873669b00789260010a85fd50b0d6823@chewa.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <873669b00789260010a85fd50b0d6823@chewa.net> X-Operating-System: OpenBSD pf.FreeDaemonHosting.com 4.2 GENERIC X-PGP-Fingerprint: B6 3B 70 46 BC 0F 8C DD 14 D4 C7 D1 47 F6 23 FA X-URL: http://todd.fries.net X-tra-email: todd@{fries.net,OpenBSD.org} toddfries@gmail.com X-IM: toddfries:AIM 115268457:ICQ todd@fries.net:MSN X-Jabber: toddfries@gmail.com User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.12-2006-07-14 X-FDH-MailScanner-Information: http://FreeDaemonHosting.com/MailScanner.html X-FDH-MailScanner: clean X-FDH-MailScanner-From: todd@pf.freedaemonhosting.com Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 7aafa0432175920a4b3e118e16c5cb64 fails to query AAAA records unless the application explicitly requests it? How hard are we trying to make the transition? *sigh* -- Todd Fries .. todd@fries.net _____________________________________________ | \ 1.636.410.0632 (voice) | Free Daemon Consulting, LLC \ 1.405.227.9094 (voice) | http://FreeDaemonConsulting.com \ 1.866.792.3418 (FAX) | "..in support of free software solutions." \ 1.700.227.9094 (IAXTEL) | \ 250797 (FWD) \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ 37E7 D3EB 74D0 8D66 A68D B866 0326 204E 3F42 004A http://todd.fries.net/pgp.txt Penned by Remi Denis-Courmont on 20071129 12:17.15, we have: | | On Wed, 28 Nov 2007 22:26:21 -0600, "Todd T. Fries" wrote: | > I'm sorry, turning off IPv6 routing does not imply the userland should | not | > and cannot query for v6 addresses. That's just bogus. The operating | > system | > can inform the application that the v6 address has no route, and the | > application can try the next address, just as if it were a v4 host with | > multiple v4 addresses, and the first one is not reachable, only faster, | > because no default route means the application will get notified much | > sooner. | | Like it or not, just about every major dual-stackable operating system | "fail" to query AAAA RRs if the host has no IPv6 address except for | loopback and link-local ones. | There are simply way too many broken DNS servers and somewhat-DNS-aware | middleboxes in the field that screw up on AAAA queries. | | Besides, if an application really wants to resolve a name to an IPv6 | address, it can probably request it explicitly (e.g. | hints.ai_family = PF_INET6 with getaddrinfo()). Still, from a | connectivity perspective, you would normally not be using DNS for | loopback (::1). And you simply cannot use DNS for link-local | addressing, since link-local addresses require a host-specific | scope, which DNS cannot provide. | | | Since this part of the problem is essentially fixed in the field, | I think the main remaining issue is what Nathan describes - lame | automatic 6to4 deployment. | | -- | R??mi From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Nov 29 07:54:21 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IxiuL-0004ld-Kt for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 07:54:21 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IxiuJ-0003BL-CM for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 07:54:21 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IxisO-0009UW-4b for v6ops-data@psg.com; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 12:52:20 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [195.30.1.100] (helo=moebius2.Space.Net) by psg.com with smtp (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ixira-0009R9-5G for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 12:52:01 +0000 Received: (qmail 20679 invoked by uid 1007); 29 Nov 2007 12:51:28 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=testkey; d=space.net; b=k/Xzg/4K6GlKxBz5Fcha709ESaW+NZVsX3CQX4Oej9dN7wjX7YHf6YxcVnKiWhuA ; Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 13:51:28 +0100 From: Gert Doering To: "Todd T. Fries" Cc: Gert Doering , Nathan Ward , v6ops Subject: Re: "DNS-4to6 automatic mapping" - No more DNS-ALGs & 6then4 DNS queries Message-ID: <20071129125128.GW69215@Space.Net> References: <9758668.582241196013646828.JavaMail.www@wwinf8301> <67099930711252140w9322f24h2e6037e7deabad45@mail.gmail.com> <306EA0BF-BA92-400F-9E7C-7ED11AB6B963@muada.com> <20071129042620.GD12385@fries.net> <20071129075834.GP69215@Space.Net> <20071129121924.GA14065@fries.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="TBuP4rlGZu0Ar2cT" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20071129121924.GA14065@fries.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-NCC-RegID: de.space Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 7aafa0432175920a4b3e118e16c5cb64 --TBuP4rlGZu0Ar2cT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, On Thu, Nov 29, 2007 at 06:19:25AM -0600, Todd T. Fries wrote: > Make all the distinguishing you wish. Thanks for your well-reflected views on a one-size-fits-all reality :-) > The bottom line is that OpenBSD userland unconditionally enables IPv6 > regardless if the kernel supports it or not. If there is no v6 default > route, v6 fails quickly and seamlessly back to v4 (telnet, ftp, ssh, etc) > and behaves sanely. Aah, OpenBSD. Now, of course, OpenBSD is always right, and the single point of reference on how operating systems should work. The initial topic on this thread was "can we avoid extra DNS queries that have no value, but may cause operational issues". What happens *afterward*, whether or not the connection fails "quickly"=20 or "slowly", is really of not much interest for the question under discussion. Gert Doering -- NetMaster --=20 Total number of prefixes smaller than registry allocations: 110584 SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (89) 32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 --TBuP4rlGZu0Ar2cT Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (FreeBSD) iQCVAwUBR0610KkuBuNlUUl1AQJHXgP/XDTh4QdAJDls4wHECYGwtWeNicuzQq5F GcT9BVBq8ulb4NhP8CnL+NbReGc9k0CcNC2vFshwEX4MMIdeunW8dfyqS3Z1f0ut YRH3CSkyzx2jBsa7XUndtPtOkXanfFsj7ss3+zn9FYeMPYN3wv6ERPQaZOo7hErX JTz5DVPGCTQ= =ONx2 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --TBuP4rlGZu0Ar2cT-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Nov 29 08:13:03 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IxjCR-0000qu-Sa for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 08:13:03 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IxjCR-0000GE-J9 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 08:13:03 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IxjAz-000B0c-34 for v6ops-data@psg.com; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 13:11:33 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.4 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [83.149.65.1] (helo=sequoia.muada.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IxjAn-000AzR-7f for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 13:11:27 +0000 Received: from nirrti.it.uc3m.es (nirrti.it.uc3m.es [163.117.139.66]) (authenticated bits=0) by sequoia.muada.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id lATDAZhi005906 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Thu, 29 Nov 2007 14:10:35 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from iljitsch@muada.com) Cc: Gert Doering , Nathan Ward , v6ops Message-Id: <7B35C977-5877-4717-B0B0-C7F6D721AD00@muada.com> From: Iljitsch van Beijnum To: todd@fries.net In-Reply-To: <20071129121924.GA14065@fries.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v915) Subject: Re: "DNS-4to6 automatic mapping" - No more DNS-ALGs & 6then4 DNS queries Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 14:10:30 +0100 References: <9758668.582241196013646828.JavaMail.www@wwinf8301> <67099930711252140w9322f24h2e6037e7deabad45@mail.gmail.com> <306EA0BF-BA92-400F-9E7C-7ED11AB6B963@muada.com> <20071129042620.GD12385@fries.net> <20071129075834.GP69215@Space.Net> <20071129121924.GA14065@fries.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.915) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: d6b246023072368de71562c0ab503126 On 29 nov 2007, at 13:19, Todd T. Fries wrote: > The bottom line is that OpenBSD userland unconditionally enables IPv6 > regardless if the kernel supports it or not. If there is no v6 > default > route, v6 fails quickly and seamlessly back to v4 (telnet, ftp, ssh, > etc) > and behaves sanely. > I do not see why mandating different is productive for a future of v6 > deployment. I for one am glad that my OS of choice is smart enough to avoid this unnecessary extra work. If your users don't mind this "you checked the box during installation so now I'm going to waste time for each DNS lookup even though a quick look at the routing table could avoid that" approach, I agree that the IETF should probably not force you to do things differently. From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Nov 29 08:23:29 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IxjMX-0002Pu-7l for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 08:23:29 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IxjMW-0003Vw-Fw for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 08:23:29 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IxjJa-000Bhv-3v for v6ops-data@psg.com; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 13:20:26 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.2 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [66.210.104.252] (helo=FreeDaemonHosting.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IxjJ2-000BdD-Uk for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 13:20:09 +0000 Received: from pf.FreeDaemonHosting.com (localhost.theshop.net [IPv6:::1]) by FreeDaemonHosting.com (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id lATDJcGD032018; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 07:19:38 -0600 (CST) Received: (from todd@localhost) by pf.FreeDaemonHosting.com (8.14.1/8.14.1/Submit) id lATDJbO1014498; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 07:19:37 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 07:19:37 -0600 From: "Todd T. Fries" To: Gert Doering Cc: Nathan Ward , v6ops Subject: Re: "DNS-4to6 automatic mapping" - No more DNS-ALGs & 6then4 DNS queries Message-ID: <20071129131937.GD14065@fries.net> Reply-To: todd@fries.net References: <9758668.582241196013646828.JavaMail.www@wwinf8301> <67099930711252140w9322f24h2e6037e7deabad45@mail.gmail.com> <306EA0BF-BA92-400F-9E7C-7ED11AB6B963@muada.com> <20071129042620.GD12385@fries.net> <20071129075834.GP69215@Space.Net> <20071129121924.GA14065@fries.net> <20071129125128.GW69215@Space.Net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20071129125128.GW69215@Space.Net> X-Operating-System: OpenBSD pf.FreeDaemonHosting.com 4.2 GENERIC X-PGP-Fingerprint: B6 3B 70 46 BC 0F 8C DD 14 D4 C7 D1 47 F6 23 FA X-URL: http://todd.fries.net X-tra-email: todd@{fries.net,OpenBSD.org} toddfries@gmail.com X-IM: toddfries:AIM 115268457:ICQ todd@fries.net:MSN X-Jabber: toddfries@gmail.com User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.12-2006-07-14 X-FDH-MailScanner-Information: http://FreeDaemonHosting.com/MailScanner.html X-FDH-MailScanner: clean X-FDH-MailScanner-From: todd@pf.freedaemonhosting.com Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: c3a18ef96977fc9bcc21a621cbf1174b I guess the concept of just working is overrated also. I do not think we have time to debate the finer points of eeking operational overhead by asking vendors to not query AAAA just because a v6 stack/default route is not enabled.... versus telling vendors where dns servers are broken and fixing things to pave the way for adoption of v6 wholesale. I am sorry you see me as a one size fits all mentality associated with OpenBSD. I simply mention it as one os vendor that does the opposite of what you suggest. I would be surprised if there are not others. To me, removing AAAA queries based upon conditions adds more complexity and does not provide a consistent user experience and is a step backwards rather than a step forwards. You will, however, get no complaints from me regarding BCP of not querying A6; this was deprecated years ago... Think about it, you want userland to query the kernel for v6 support and further for a v6 default route before each potential AAAA query? This seems rather complex and fragile and has overhead that to me is worse than unconditionally sending the AAAA requests. You want a user to note that a host has no v6 record, on a v4 only node, yet suddenly discover there is a v6 record on a v6 enabled node? How insane is this? Suddenly starting to pull wool across eyes is what this sounds like. I much prefer to verify my dns is sending out v6 results even from a v4 only node than to alter something that I (and I suspect I am not alone) expect to work today. How can asking vendors to add more special casing to v6 code to hide v6 rather than enabling it by default be a step forward? I for one, regardless of my os of choice, see the scenario you propose to be a giant leap backwards. Thanks, -- Todd Fries .. todd@fries.net _____________________________________________ | \ 1.636.410.0632 (voice) | Free Daemon Consulting, LLC \ 1.405.227.9094 (voice) | http://FreeDaemonConsulting.com \ 1.866.792.3418 (FAX) | "..in support of free software solutions." \ 1.700.227.9094 (IAXTEL) | \ 250797 (FWD) \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ 37E7 D3EB 74D0 8D66 A68D B866 0326 204E 3F42 004A http://todd.fries.net/pgp.txt Penned by Gert Doering on 20071129 13:51.28, we have: | Hi, | | On Thu, Nov 29, 2007 at 06:19:25AM -0600, Todd T. Fries wrote: | > Make all the distinguishing you wish. | | Thanks for your well-reflected views on a one-size-fits-all reality :-) | | > The bottom line is that OpenBSD userland unconditionally enables IPv6 | > regardless if the kernel supports it or not. If there is no v6 default | > route, v6 fails quickly and seamlessly back to v4 (telnet, ftp, ssh, etc) | > and behaves sanely. | | Aah, OpenBSD. Now, of course, OpenBSD is always right, and the single | point of reference on how operating systems should work. | | The initial topic on this thread was "can we avoid extra DNS queries that | have no value, but may cause operational issues". | | What happens *afterward*, whether or not the connection fails "quickly" | or "slowly", is really of not much interest for the question under | discussion. | | Gert Doering | -- NetMaster | -- | Total number of prefixes smaller than registry allocations: 110584 | | SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard | Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann | D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) | Tel: +49 (89) 32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Nov 29 08:27:31 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IxjQR-0007Zh-Ce for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 08:27:31 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IxjQQ-0004om-RO for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 08:27:31 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IxjOn-000C9N-0R for v6ops-data@psg.com; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 13:25:49 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.3 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [66.210.104.252] (helo=FreeDaemonHosting.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IxjOF-000C67-2T for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 13:25:32 +0000 Received: from pf.FreeDaemonHosting.com (localhost.theshop.net [IPv6:::1]) by FreeDaemonHosting.com (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id lATDOjie014955; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 07:24:45 -0600 (CST) Received: (from todd@localhost) by pf.FreeDaemonHosting.com (8.14.1/8.14.1/Submit) id lATDOjvJ019859; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 07:24:45 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 07:24:45 -0600 From: "Todd T. Fries" To: Iljitsch van Beijnum Cc: Gert Doering , Nathan Ward , v6ops Subject: Re: "DNS-4to6 automatic mapping" - No more DNS-ALGs & 6then4 DNS queries Message-ID: <20071129132445.GE14065@fries.net> Reply-To: todd@fries.net References: <9758668.582241196013646828.JavaMail.www@wwinf8301> <67099930711252140w9322f24h2e6037e7deabad45@mail.gmail.com> <306EA0BF-BA92-400F-9E7C-7ED11AB6B963@muada.com> <20071129042620.GD12385@fries.net> <20071129075834.GP69215@Space.Net> <20071129121924.GA14065@fries.net> <7B35C977-5877-4717-B0B0-C7F6D721AD00@muada.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <7B35C977-5877-4717-B0B0-C7F6D721AD00@muada.com> X-Operating-System: OpenBSD pf.FreeDaemonHosting.com 4.2 GENERIC X-PGP-Fingerprint: B6 3B 70 46 BC 0F 8C DD 14 D4 C7 D1 47 F6 23 FA X-URL: http://todd.fries.net X-tra-email: todd@{fries.net,OpenBSD.org} toddfries@gmail.com X-IM: toddfries:AIM 115268457:ICQ todd@fries.net:MSN X-Jabber: toddfries@gmail.com User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.12-2006-07-14 X-FDH-MailScanner-Information: http://FreeDaemonHosting.com/MailScanner.html X-FDH-MailScanner: clean X-FDH-MailScanner-From: todd@pf.freedaemonhosting.com Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 9ed51c9d1356100bce94f1ae4ec616a9 What box? There is no box to enable v6 on OpenBSD. The only place in OpenBSD that does not have v6 enabled by default is in a few install media kernels, which do not have space for v6. The userland ftp utility, used for retrieving images, fails most gracefully when given a hostname that has both v4 and v6 addresses, it tries the v6, fails immediately, and then uses the v4 address. I guess you have not tried OpenBSD since you seem to think there are options check boxes that enable/disable v6 entirely during the installation. -- Todd Fries .. todd@fries.net _____________________________________________ | \ 1.636.410.0632 (voice) | Free Daemon Consulting, LLC \ 1.405.227.9094 (voice) | http://FreeDaemonConsulting.com \ 1.866.792.3418 (FAX) | "..in support of free software solutions." \ 1.700.227.9094 (IAXTEL) | \ 250797 (FWD) \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ 37E7 D3EB 74D0 8D66 A68D B866 0326 204E 3F42 004A http://todd.fries.net/pgp.txt Penned by Iljitsch van Beijnum on 20071129 14:10.30, we have: | On 29 nov 2007, at 13:19, Todd T. Fries wrote: | | >The bottom line is that OpenBSD userland unconditionally enables IPv6 | >regardless if the kernel supports it or not. If there is no v6 | >default | >route, v6 fails quickly and seamlessly back to v4 (telnet, ftp, ssh, | >etc) | >and behaves sanely. | | >I do not see why mandating different is productive for a future of v6 | >deployment. | | I for one am glad that my OS of choice is smart enough to avoid this | unnecessary extra work. If your users don't mind this "you checked the | box during installation so now I'm going to waste time for each DNS | lookup even though a quick look at the routing table could avoid that" | approach, I agree that the IETF should probably not force you to do | things differently. From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Nov 29 13:24:42 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ixo42-0006X9-L2 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 13:24:42 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ixo40-00068U-S2 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 13:24:42 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IxnzG-00064H-CT for v6ops-data@psg.com; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 18:19:46 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.3 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [66.210.104.252] (helo=FreeDaemonHosting.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ixnyg-00062G-M7 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 18:19:29 +0000 Received: from ispdesk.fries.net ([IPv6:2001:240:58a:100::41]) by FreeDaemonHosting.com (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id lATIJ0P6030738; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 12:19:00 -0600 (CST) Received: from ispdesk.fries.net (todd@localhost.fries.net [127.0.0.1]) by ispdesk.fries.net (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id lATIIxid029770; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 12:18:59 -0600 (CST) Received: (from todd@localhost) by ispdesk.fries.net (8.14.1/8.14.1/Submit) id lATIIxrx029821; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 12:18:59 -0600 (CST) X-Authentication-Warning: ispdesk.fries.net: todd set sender to todd@fries.net using -f Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 12:18:59 -0600 From: todd@fries.net To: R?mi Denis-Courmont Cc: Gert Doering , Nathan Ward , v6ops Subject: Re: "DNS-4to6 automatic mapping" - No more DNS-ALGs & 6then4 DNS queries Message-ID: <20071129181859.GA6333@fries.net> Reply-To: todd@fries.net References: <9758668.582241196013646828.JavaMail.www@wwinf8301> <20071129075834.GP69215@Space.Net> <20071129121924.GA14065@fries.net> <200711292017.36225.rdenis@simphalempin.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200711292017.36225.rdenis@simphalempin.com> X-Operating-System: OpenBSD ispdesk.fries.net 4.2 GENERIC X-PGP-Fingerprint: B6 3B 70 46 BC 0F 8C DD 14 D4 C7 D1 47 F6 23 FA X-URL: http://todd.fries.net X-tra-email: todd@{fries.net,OpenBSD.org} toddfries@gmail.com X-IM: toddfries:AIM 115268457:ICQ todd@fries.net:MSN X-Jabber: toddfries@gmail.com User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.17 (2007-11-01) X-FDH-MailScanner-Information: http://FreeDaemonHosting.com/MailScanner.html X-FDH-MailScanner: clean X-FDH-MailScanner-From: todd@fries.net Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 9ed51c9d1356100bce94f1ae4ec616a9 So we hack the os to fix the broken dns servers. whee! Progress! -- Todd Fries .. todd@fries.net _____________________________________________ | \ 1.636.410.0632 (voice) | Free Daemon Consulting, LLC \ 1.405.227.9094 (voice) | http://FreeDaemonConsulting.com \ 1.866.792.3418 (FAX) | "..in support of free software solutions." \ 250797 (FWD) | \ \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ 37E7 D3EB 74D0 8D66 A68D B866 0326 204E 3F42 004A http://todd.fries.net/pgp.txt Penned by R?mi Denis-Courmont on 20071129 20:17.33, we have: | Le Thursday 29 November 2007 14:19:25 Todd T. Fries, vous avez ?crit?: | > The bottom line is that OpenBSD userland unconditionally enables IPv6 | > regardless if the kernel supports it or not. If there is no v6 default | > route, v6 fails quickly and seamlessly back to v4 (telnet, ftp, ssh, etc) | > and behaves sanely. | | Great, so lets put said OpenBSD behind one of many cheap CPE that drops or | otherwise screws up DNS AAAA query packets. | | I fail to see how not having a default v6 route saves you from waiting for the | DNS query timeout (remember the DNS AAAA request will be sent over IPv4). | | > I do not see why mandating different is productive for a future of v6 | > deployment. | | Because it avoids lengthy time outs when AAAA DNS breaks. Without this hack, | more people will be annoyed by the dual stack nature of their OS and learn to | disable IPv6 *completely*. | | See also RFC4472. | | -- | R?mi Denis-Courmont | http://www.remlab.net/ From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Nov 29 13:25:15 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ixo4Z-0000NW-Sv for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 13:25:15 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ixo4Z-0006FW-CD for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 13:25:15 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ixo0E-0006Ap-Aj for v6ops-data@psg.com; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 18:20:46 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [194.242.114.73] (helo=poy.chewa.net) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IxnzS-000652-JE for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 18:20:30 +0000 Received: from basile.remlab.net (unknown [IPv6:2002:3e4e:969c:0:211:11ff:fe25:e6b4]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: remi) by poy.chewa.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE07E96810; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 19:19:57 +0100 (CET) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?R=E9mi_Denis-Courmont?= Organization: Remlab.net To: todd@fries.net Subject: Re: "DNS-4to6 automatic mapping" - No more DNS-ALGs & 6then4 DNSqueries Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 20:19:56 +0200 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.7 Cc: v6ops References: <20071129042620.GD12385@fries.net> <873669b00789260010a85fd50b0d6823@chewa.net> <20071129122846.GC14065@fries.net> In-Reply-To: <20071129122846.GC14065@fries.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200711292019.56452.rdenis@simphalempin.com> Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: cf4fa59384e76e63313391b70cd0dd25 Le Thursday 29 November 2007 14:28:46 Todd T. Fries, vous avez =E9crit=A0: > fails to query AAAA records unless the application explicitly requests it? > > How hard are we trying to make the transition? How hard are you trying to misrepresent my comment? I said *IF* there are no IPv6 addresses beyond loopback and link-local ones= ,=20 didn't I? What's the use of querying by *default* if we know IPv6=20 connectivity is absent? =2D-=20 R=E9mi Denis-Courmont http://www.remlab.net/ From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Nov 29 13:25:36 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ixo4u-0001Ao-1M for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 13:25:36 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ixo4t-0006KH-KW for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 13:25:36 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ixnxp-0005zJ-H2 for v6ops-data@psg.com; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 18:18:17 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [194.242.114.73] (helo=poy.chewa.net) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IxnxF-0005xP-Vy for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 18:18:01 +0000 Received: from basile.remlab.net (unknown [IPv6:2002:3e4e:969c:0:211:11ff:fe25:e6b4]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: remi) by poy.chewa.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14C0996810; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 19:17:38 +0100 (CET) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?R=E9mi_Denis-Courmont?= Organization: Remlab.net To: todd@fries.net Subject: Re: "DNS-4to6 automatic mapping" - No more DNS-ALGs & 6then4 DNS queries Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 20:17:33 +0200 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.7 Cc: Gert Doering , Nathan Ward , v6ops References: <9758668.582241196013646828.JavaMail.www@wwinf8301> <20071129075834.GP69215@Space.Net> <20071129121924.GA14065@fries.net> In-Reply-To: <20071129121924.GA14065@fries.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="nextPart1275978.nbGzMJ9DBj"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200711292017.36225.rdenis@simphalempin.com> Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 50a516d93fd399dc60588708fd9a3002 --nextPart1275978.nbGzMJ9DBj Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Le Thursday 29 November 2007 14:19:25 Todd T. Fries, vous avez =E9crit=A0: > The bottom line is that OpenBSD userland unconditionally enables IPv6 > regardless if the kernel supports it or not. If there is no v6 default > route, v6 fails quickly and seamlessly back to v4 (telnet, ftp, ssh, etc) > and behaves sanely. Great, so lets put said OpenBSD behind one of many cheap CPE that drops or= =20 otherwise screws up DNS AAAA query packets. I fail to see how not having a default v6 route saves you from waiting for = the=20 DNS query timeout (remember the DNS AAAA request will be sent over IPv4). > I do not see why mandating different is productive for a future of v6 > deployment. Because it avoids lengthy time outs when AAAA DNS breaks. Without this hack= ,=20 more people will be annoyed by the dual stack nature of their OS and learn = to=20 disable IPv6 *completely*. See also RFC4472. =2D-=20 R=E9mi Denis-Courmont http://www.remlab.net/ --nextPart1275978.nbGzMJ9DBj Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iEYEABECAAYFAkdPAkAACgkQw+xtvt1tEr0KxwCg47d4H0em9+wcHaPhCVWSdvGn ZNMAnRngiS422dgq//YJcHfSSR2WzDGW =5ekA -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --nextPart1275978.nbGzMJ9DBj-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Nov 29 13:31:42 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IxoAo-0006Z3-Gl for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 13:31:42 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IxoAn-0007ak-3D for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 13:31:42 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ixo9H-0006rJ-8w for v6ops-data@psg.com; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 18:30:07 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.3 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [66.210.104.252] (helo=FreeDaemonHosting.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ixo7o-0006iS-Uh for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 18:29:27 +0000 Received: from ispdesk.fries.net ([IPv6:2001:240:58a:100::41]) by FreeDaemonHosting.com (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id lATISXqX013735; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 12:28:33 -0600 (CST) Received: from ispdesk.fries.net (todd@localhost.fries.net [127.0.0.1]) by ispdesk.fries.net (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id lATISXlQ024803; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 12:28:33 -0600 (CST) Received: (from todd@localhost) by ispdesk.fries.net (8.14.1/8.14.1/Submit) id lATISXx8008880; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 12:28:33 -0600 (CST) X-Authentication-Warning: ispdesk.fries.net: todd set sender to todd@fries.net using -f Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 12:28:33 -0600 From: todd@fries.net To: R?mi Denis-Courmont Cc: v6ops Subject: Re: "DNS-4to6 automatic mapping" - No more DNS-ALGs & 6then4 DNSqueries Message-ID: <20071129182832.GB6333@fries.net> Reply-To: todd@fries.net References: <20071129042620.GD12385@fries.net> <873669b00789260010a85fd50b0d6823@chewa.net> <20071129122846.GC14065@fries.net> <200711292019.56452.rdenis@simphalempin.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200711292019.56452.rdenis@simphalempin.com> X-Operating-System: OpenBSD ispdesk.fries.net 4.2 GENERIC X-PGP-Fingerprint: B6 3B 70 46 BC 0F 8C DD 14 D4 C7 D1 47 F6 23 FA X-URL: http://todd.fries.net X-tra-email: todd@{fries.net,OpenBSD.org} toddfries@gmail.com X-IM: toddfries:AIM 115268457:ICQ todd@fries.net:MSN X-Jabber: toddfries@gmail.com User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.17 (2007-11-01) X-FDH-MailScanner-Information: http://FreeDaemonHosting.com/MailScanner.html X-FDH-MailScanner: clean X-FDH-MailScanner-From: todd@fries.net Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: cab78e1e39c4b328567edb48482b6a69 I know exactly what you said. The use is, if I have some app that is generating reports or doing things other than connecting to IPv6 addresses where returning IPv6 addresses would be useful. Don't presume the only thing dns resolution is for is to connect to the addresses being resolved. What if you want to debug the dns output of your dns server from a v4 only node, but want to verify it's outputing v6 records? By your semantics, you'd not see the v6 on a v4 only node. I don't think this is right. -- Todd Fries .. todd@fries.net _____________________________________________ | \ 1.636.410.0632 (voice) | Free Daemon Consulting, LLC \ 1.405.227.9094 (voice) | http://FreeDaemonConsulting.com \ 1.866.792.3418 (FAX) | "..in support of free software solutions." \ 250797 (FWD) | \ \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ 37E7 D3EB 74D0 8D66 A68D B866 0326 204E 3F42 004A http://todd.fries.net/pgp.txt Penned by R?mi Denis-Courmont on 20071129 20:19.56, we have: | Le Thursday 29 November 2007 14:28:46 Todd T. Fries, vous avez ?crit?: | > fails to query AAAA records unless the application explicitly requests it? | > | > How hard are we trying to make the transition? | | How hard are you trying to misrepresent my comment? | | I said *IF* there are no IPv6 addresses beyond loopback and link-local ones, | didn't I? What's the use of querying by *default* if we know IPv6 | connectivity is absent? | | -- | R?mi Denis-Courmont | http://www.remlab.net/ From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Nov 29 13:32:32 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IxoBc-0006oE-2k for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 13:32:32 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IxoBb-0007ki-Bh for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 13:32:32 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IxoA8-0006wG-Oi for v6ops-data@psg.com; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 18:31:00 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [194.242.114.73] (helo=poy.chewa.net) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ixo93-0006oc-Vg for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 18:30:25 +0000 Received: from basile.remlab.net (unknown [IPv6:2002:3e4e:969c:0:211:11ff:fe25:e6b4]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: remi) by poy.chewa.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C041E9680B; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 19:29:52 +0100 (CET) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?R=E9mi_Denis-Courmont?= Organization: Remlab.net To: todd@fries.net Subject: Re: "DNS-4to6 automatic mapping" - No more DNS-ALGs & 6then4 DNS queries Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 20:29:48 +0200 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.7 Cc: v6ops References: <9758668.582241196013646828.JavaMail.www@wwinf8301> <200711292017.36225.rdenis@simphalempin.com> <20071129181859.GA6333@fries.net> In-Reply-To: <20071129181859.GA6333@fries.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="nextPart1444653.LnFMaAGOkG"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200711292029.51218.rdenis@simphalempin.com> Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 21c69d3cfc2dd19218717dbe1d974352 --nextPart1444653.LnFMaAGOkG Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Le Thursday 29 November 2007 20:18:59 todd@fries.net, vous avez =E9crit=A0: > So we hack the os to fix the broken dns servers. whee! Progress! Does OpenBSD refuse to work behind a NAT because it is not legal from RFC=20 perspective? Silly me, I almost forgot the pf own NAT implementation did no= t=20 even remotely match the IETF BEHAVE specifications. There is a (rather small) market for OSes that do everything "right" from a= =20 technical perspective, and there is a (rather large) market for OSes that=20 just works. As it happens, OpenBSD can afford to aim only at the first=20 market - good for you! Conversely, most computer users cannot afford to use= =20 OpenBSD. As such, I don't think we want to limit the relevance of IETF to *only* the= =20 do-things-right market. =2D-=20 R=E9mi Denis-Courmont http://www.remlab.net/ --nextPart1444653.LnFMaAGOkG Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iEYEABECAAYFAkdPBR8ACgkQw+xtvt1tEr2/RACfc76ZKn82Nlkf3oAgjrGkjSzY J7MAmgOzW82fHfRWpWii4hEbZCfIhlkD =ah1z -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --nextPart1444653.LnFMaAGOkG-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Nov 29 13:37:42 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IxoGc-0001ME-Ii for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 13:37:42 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IxoGc-0000FN-6z for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 13:37:42 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IxoDk-0007Gu-5G for v6ops-data@psg.com; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 18:34:44 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [194.242.114.73] (helo=poy.chewa.net) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IxoCJ-00077U-Bu for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 18:33:52 +0000 Received: from basile.remlab.net (unknown [IPv6:2002:3e4e:969c:0:211:11ff:fe25:e6b4]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: remi) by poy.chewa.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E350296814; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 19:33:13 +0100 (CET) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?R=E9mi_Denis-Courmont?= Organization: Remlab.net To: todd@fries.net Subject: Re: "DNS-4to6 automatic mapping" - No more DNS-ALGs & 6then4 DNSqueries Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 20:33:09 +0200 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.7 Cc: v6ops References: <20071129042620.GD12385@fries.net> <200711292019.56452.rdenis@simphalempin.com> <20071129182832.GB6333@fries.net> In-Reply-To: <20071129182832.GB6333@fries.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="nextPart11848415.1e1AlymMaA"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <200711292033.12446.rdenis@simphalempin.com> Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: cab78e1e39c4b328567edb48482b6a69 --nextPart11848415.1e1AlymMaA Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Le Thursday 29 November 2007 20:28:33 todd@fries.net, vous avez =E9crit=A0: > The use is, if I have some app that is generating reports or doing things > other than connecting to IPv6 addresses where returning IPv6 addresses > would be useful. > > Don't presume the only thing dns resolution is for is to connect to the > addresses being resolved. > > What if you want to debug the dns output of your dns server from a v4 only > node, but want to verify it's outputing v6 records? Then you are probably capable of setting up OpenBSD, or alternatively using= =20 ISC BIND dig to query AAAA, A and ANY RR types explicitly (or both). > By your semantics, you'd not see the v6 on a v4 only node. > I don't think this is right. I *know* it's not right. However, I claim it's pragmatic. =2D-=20 R=E9mi Denis-Courmont http://www.remlab.net/ --nextPart11848415.1e1AlymMaA Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iEYEABECAAYFAkdPBegACgkQw+xtvt1tEr0idwCeO/NAARtgZ0+DiQ2vATjyz+XH 5oUAn1CpdiP092Z+DS5Ml8qkjrXXQq3b =XIeh -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --nextPart11848415.1e1AlymMaA-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Nov 29 13:40:47 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IxoJb-00030e-DT for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 13:40:47 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IxoJa-0000jG-V9 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 13:40:47 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IxoHq-0007hr-Ro for v6ops-data@psg.com; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 18:38:58 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.3 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [66.210.104.252] (helo=FreeDaemonHosting.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IxoFa-0007Ug-7X for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 18:38:08 +0000 Received: from ispdesk.fries.net ([IPv6:2001:240:58a:100::41]) by FreeDaemonHosting.com (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id lATIaYfh015881; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 12:36:34 -0600 (CST) Received: from ispdesk.fries.net (todd@localhost.fries.net [127.0.0.1]) by ispdesk.fries.net (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id lATIaY1f010321; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 12:36:34 -0600 (CST) Received: (from todd@localhost) by ispdesk.fries.net (8.14.1/8.14.1/Submit) id lATIaYcp009720; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 12:36:34 -0600 (CST) X-Authentication-Warning: ispdesk.fries.net: todd set sender to todd@fries.net using -f Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 12:36:34 -0600 From: todd@fries.net To: R?mi Denis-Courmont Cc: v6ops Subject: Re: "DNS-4to6 automatic mapping" - No more DNS-ALGs & 6then4 DNSqueries Message-ID: <20071129183633.GC6333@fries.net> Reply-To: todd@fries.net References: <20071129042620.GD12385@fries.net> <200711292019.56452.rdenis@simphalempin.com> <20071129182832.GB6333@fries.net> <200711292033.12446.rdenis@simphalempin.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <200711292033.12446.rdenis@simphalempin.com> X-Operating-System: OpenBSD ispdesk.fries.net 4.2 GENERIC X-PGP-Fingerprint: B6 3B 70 46 BC 0F 8C DD 14 D4 C7 D1 47 F6 23 FA X-URL: http://todd.fries.net X-tra-email: todd@{fries.net,OpenBSD.org} toddfries@gmail.com X-IM: toddfries:AIM 115268457:ICQ todd@fries.net:MSN X-Jabber: toddfries@gmail.com User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.17 (2007-11-01) X-FDH-MailScanner-Information: http://FreeDaemonHosting.com/MailScanner.html X-FDH-MailScanner: clean X-FDH-MailScanner-From: todd@fries.net Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: cab78e1e39c4b328567edb48482b6a69 So any app that needs to resolve things in a consistent manner must fork and exec dig? Nice. -- Todd Fries .. todd@fries.net _____________________________________________ | \ 1.636.410.0632 (voice) | Free Daemon Consulting, LLC \ 1.405.227.9094 (voice) | http://FreeDaemonConsulting.com \ 1.866.792.3418 (FAX) | "..in support of free software solutions." \ 250797 (FWD) | \ \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ 37E7 D3EB 74D0 8D66 A68D B866 0326 204E 3F42 004A http://todd.fries.net/pgp.txt Penned by R?mi Denis-Courmont on 20071129 20:33.09, we have: | Le Thursday 29 November 2007 20:28:33 todd@fries.net, vous avez ?crit?: | > The use is, if I have some app that is generating reports or doing things | > other than connecting to IPv6 addresses where returning IPv6 addresses | > would be useful. | > | > Don't presume the only thing dns resolution is for is to connect to the | > addresses being resolved. | > | > What if you want to debug the dns output of your dns server from a v4 only | > node, but want to verify it's outputing v6 records? | | Then you are probably capable of setting up OpenBSD, or alternatively using | ISC BIND dig to query AAAA, A and ANY RR types explicitly (or both). | | > By your semantics, you'd not see the v6 on a v4 only node. | | > I don't think this is right. | | I *know* it's not right. However, I claim it's pragmatic. | | -- | R?mi Denis-Courmont | http://www.remlab.net/ From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Nov 29 13:50:56 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IxoTQ-0003dr-PK for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 13:50:56 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IxoTO-0002We-TN for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 13:50:56 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IxoRS-0008a0-67 for v6ops-data@psg.com; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 18:48:54 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [195.30.1.100] (helo=moebius2.Space.Net) by psg.com with smtp (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IxoQs-0008Vv-8d for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 18:48:36 +0000 Received: (qmail 66670 invoked by uid 1007); 29 Nov 2007 18:48:14 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=testkey; d=space.net; b=tkXQEv2WzrePugAf6ON4piiLTEsyHPP6KkHoGTy+gGCmaEOoMv1WAoOPC3jyMqha ; Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 19:48:14 +0100 From: Gert Doering To: todd@fries.net Cc: R?mi Denis-Courmont , v6ops Subject: Re: "DNS-4to6 automatic mapping" - No more DNS-ALGs & 6then4 DNSqueries Message-ID: <20071129184814.GH69215@Space.Net> References: <20071129042620.GD12385@fries.net> <873669b00789260010a85fd50b0d6823@chewa.net> <20071129122846.GC14065@fries.net> <200711292019.56452.rdenis@simphalempin.com> <20071129182832.GB6333@fries.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20071129182832.GB6333@fries.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-NCC-RegID: de.space Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 9182cfff02fae4f1b6e9349e01d62f32 Hi, On Thu, Nov 29, 2007 at 12:28:33PM -0600, todd@fries.net wrote: > I know exactly what you said. > > The use is, if I have some app that is generating reports or doing things > other than connecting to IPv6 addresses where returning IPv6 addresses > would be useful. There is a difference between an app querying *for IPv6 addresses* and an app querying "give me something to connect to". Please try to get that into your head. Nobody is trying to refuse an app's explicit AAAA queries. Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- Total number of prefixes smaller than registry allocations: 110584 SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (89) 32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Nov 29 13:53:32 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IxoVw-0005qn-IQ for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 13:53:32 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IxoVv-00034t-Pw for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 13:53:32 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IxoTz-0008pd-Jw for v6ops-data@psg.com; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 18:51:31 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.3 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [66.210.104.252] (helo=FreeDaemonHosting.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IxoT0-0008k3-Rl for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 18:50:59 +0000 Received: from ispdesk.fries.net ([IPv6:2001:240:58a:100::41]) by FreeDaemonHosting.com (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id lATIoOSb008067; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 12:50:24 -0600 (CST) Received: from ispdesk.fries.net (todd@localhost.fries.net [127.0.0.1]) by ispdesk.fries.net (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id lATIoOTk000451; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 12:50:24 -0600 (CST) Received: (from todd@localhost) by ispdesk.fries.net (8.14.1/8.14.1/Submit) id lATIoOa4020795; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 12:50:24 -0600 (CST) X-Authentication-Warning: ispdesk.fries.net: todd set sender to todd@fries.net using -f Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 12:50:24 -0600 From: todd@fries.net To: Gert Doering Cc: R?mi Denis-Courmont , v6ops Subject: Re: "DNS-4to6 automatic mapping" - No more DNS-ALGs & 6then4 DNSqueries Message-ID: <20071129185023.GE6333@fries.net> Reply-To: todd@fries.net References: <20071129042620.GD12385@fries.net> <873669b00789260010a85fd50b0d6823@chewa.net> <20071129122846.GC14065@fries.net> <200711292019.56452.rdenis@simphalempin.com> <20071129182832.GB6333@fries.net> <20071129184814.GH69215@Space.Net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20071129184814.GH69215@Space.Net> X-Operating-System: OpenBSD ispdesk.fries.net 4.2 GENERIC X-PGP-Fingerprint: B6 3B 70 46 BC 0F 8C DD 14 D4 C7 D1 47 F6 23 FA X-URL: http://todd.fries.net X-tra-email: todd@{fries.net,OpenBSD.org} toddfries@gmail.com X-IM: toddfries:AIM 115268457:ICQ todd@fries.net:MSN X-Jabber: toddfries@gmail.com User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.17 (2007-11-01) X-FDH-MailScanner-Information: http://FreeDaemonHosting.com/MailScanner.html X-FDH-MailScanner: clean X-FDH-MailScanner-From: todd@fries.net Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 21c69d3cfc2dd19218717dbe1d974352 Why does an app have to explicitly ask for AAAA queries? Why can I not write apps that expect that getaddrinfo() when passed a hint of AF_UNSPEC .. will return all addresses, v6 or v4? -- Todd Fries .. todd@fries.net _____________________________________________ | \ 1.636.410.0632 (voice) | Free Daemon Consulting, LLC \ 1.405.227.9094 (voice) | http://FreeDaemonConsulting.com \ 1.866.792.3418 (FAX) | "..in support of free software solutions." \ 250797 (FWD) | \ \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ 37E7 D3EB 74D0 8D66 A68D B866 0326 204E 3F42 004A http://todd.fries.net/pgp.txt Penned by Gert Doering on 20071129 19:48.14, we have: | Hi, | | On Thu, Nov 29, 2007 at 12:28:33PM -0600, todd@fries.net wrote: | > I know exactly what you said. | > | > The use is, if I have some app that is generating reports or doing things | > other than connecting to IPv6 addresses where returning IPv6 addresses | > would be useful. | | There is a difference between an app querying *for IPv6 addresses* and | an app querying "give me something to connect to". Please try to get that | into your head. | | Nobody is trying to refuse an app's explicit AAAA queries. | | Gert Doering | -- NetMaster | -- | Total number of prefixes smaller than registry allocations: 110584 | | SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard | Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann | D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) | Tel: +49 (89) 32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Nov 29 14:02:25 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IxoeX-0007gJ-8E for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 14:02:25 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IxoeW-0004nF-T8 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 14:02:25 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ixod6-0009kC-Hf for v6ops-data@psg.com; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 19:00:56 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [194.1.163.39] (helo=abaddon.unfix.org) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ixocv-0009j9-Ay for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 19:00:50 +0000 Received: from [192.0.2.67] (87-58.0-85.cust.bluewin.ch [85.0.58.87]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: jeroen) by abaddon.unfix.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85D142A6ACD; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 20:00:41 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <474F0C5D.7030208@spaghetti.zurich.ibm.com> Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 20:00:45 +0100 From: Jeroen Massar Organization: Unfix User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.8.1.9) Gecko/20071031 Thunderbird/2.0.0.9 Mnenhy/0.7.5.666 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Gert Doering CC: todd@fries.net, R?mi Denis-Courmont , v6ops Subject: Re: "DNS-4to6 automatic mapping" - No more DNS-ALGs & 6then4 DNSqueries References: <20071129042620.GD12385@fries.net> <873669b00789260010a85fd50b0d6823@chewa.net> <20071129122846.GC14065@fries.net> <200711292019.56452.rdenis@simphalempin.com> <20071129182832.GB6333@fries.net> <20071129184814.GH69215@Space.Net> In-Reply-To: <20071129184814.GH69215@Space.Net> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.5 OpenPGP: id=333E7C23 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enig70F8B6EDA070728A9C46D3FE" X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.91.2, clamav-milter version 0.91.2 on abaddon.unfix.org X-Virus-Status: Clean Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 082a9cbf4d599f360ac7f815372a6a15 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enig70F8B6EDA070728A9C46D3FE Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Gert Doering wrote: > Hi, >=20 > On Thu, Nov 29, 2007 at 12:28:33PM -0600, todd@fries.net wrote: >> I know exactly what you said. >> >> The use is, if I have some app that is generating reports or doing thi= ngs >> other than connecting to IPv6 addresses where returning IPv6 addresses= >> would be useful. >=20 > There is a difference between an app querying *for IPv6 addresses* and > an app querying "give me something to connect to". Please try to get t= hat > into your head. >=20 > Nobody is trying to refuse an app's explicit AAAA queries. But from an application perspective there is no such thing. Applications are nowdays supposed to use getaddrinfo() / getnameinfo(), the first one is patched in eg glibc to not return AAAA's when the caller asks for an ANY record, eg "please show me all the records for example.com", if that is for connecting or not. Apps that need to connect (the ones we are discussing here) have to specify AI_ADDRCONFIG. Apps that don't (the ones Todd mention) As such this is already present, BUT a lot of applications (including quite a few of mine) don't use it, as it is a relatively new flag. That flag was also only introduced in glibc 2.3.3. The real fix to this discussion: fix the apps. Fixing the DNS would also help of course but that is even more cumbersome= =2E Greets, Jeroen --------------enig70F8B6EDA070728A9C46D3FE Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (MingW32) iD8DBQFHTwxeKaooUjM+fCMRApNvAJ98EeYcY5rKAYqEBE3lid8bA2/o4wCgqAsE 9iqCSP2WsKqq3qemu9dkXXc= =GVXV -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enig70F8B6EDA070728A9C46D3FE-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Nov 29 15:14:43 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IxpmV-0000YM-Ds for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 15:14:43 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IxpmU-0007Do-TI for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 15:14:43 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IxpjU-000FLc-7B for v6ops-data@psg.com; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 20:11:36 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [195.30.1.100] (helo=moebius2.Space.Net) by psg.com with smtp (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ixpit-000FJU-Rf for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 20:11:18 +0000 Received: (qmail 48560 invoked by uid 1007); 29 Nov 2007 20:10:58 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=testkey; d=space.net; b=EC25+mi4laZcs/OxQIWnrKixcxY43SHQB11oOw27lPDWbrGwY2Hvc/aEpNFO3laO ; Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 21:10:58 +0100 From: Gert Doering To: todd@fries.net Cc: Gert Doering , R?mi Denis-Courmont , v6ops Subject: Re: "DNS-4to6 automatic mapping" - No more DNS-ALGs & 6then4 DNSqueries Message-ID: <20071129201058.GI69215@Space.Net> References: <20071129042620.GD12385@fries.net> <873669b00789260010a85fd50b0d6823@chewa.net> <20071129122846.GC14065@fries.net> <200711292019.56452.rdenis@simphalempin.com> <20071129182832.GB6333@fries.net> <20071129184814.GH69215@Space.Net> <20071129185023.GE6333@fries.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="G7BEQ6hh4hbLVn4t" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20071129185023.GE6333@fries.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-NCC-RegID: de.space Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 538aad3a3c4f01d8b6a6477ca4248793 --G7BEQ6hh4hbLVn4t Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, On Thu, Nov 29, 2007 at 12:50:24PM -0600, todd@fries.net wrote: > Why does an app have to explicitly ask for AAAA queries? >=20 > Why can I not write apps that expect that getaddrinfo() when passed a hint > of AF_UNSPEC .. will return all addresses, v6 or v4? Sure you can, but what's the benefit for that application? Actually this is nitpicking. The *real* problem is that the systems need a "connect me to this host*name*" system/library call, that will handle all= =20 the underlying combinations and do the right thing, depending on system preferences and capabilities. Forcing each application to invent its own getaddrinfo()/loop-over-addresses loop, possibly delaying connections due to IPv6 or IPv4 blackholes "out there" (because normally this isn't done in parallel, but in sequence), is just "last century coding". Gert Doering -- NetMaster --=20 Total number of prefixes smaller than registry allocations: 110584 SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. 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    ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C832E5.1BF41620-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Nov 29 22:27:45 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IxwXZ-0001X1-A6 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 22:27:45 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IxwXY-0003yr-Pj for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 22:27:45 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IxwS1-000LIe-Vo for v6ops-data@psg.com; Fri, 30 Nov 2007 03:22:01 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [171.71.176.117] (helo=sj-iport-6.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IxwRV-000LGb-6m for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 30 Nov 2007 03:21:45 +0000 Received: from sj-dkim-4.cisco.com ([171.71.179.196]) by sj-iport-6.cisco.com with ESMTP; 29 Nov 2007 19:21:28 -0800 Received: from sj-core-2.cisco.com (sj-core-2.cisco.com [171.71.177.254]) by sj-dkim-4.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id lAU3LSvD030373; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 19:21:28 -0800 Received: from xbh-sjc-231.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-231.cisco.com [128.107.191.100]) by sj-core-2.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id lAU3LN75025280; Fri, 30 Nov 2007 03:21:24 GMT Received: from xfe-sjc-212.amer.cisco.com ([171.70.151.187]) by xbh-sjc-231.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 29 Nov 2007 19:21:24 -0800 Received: from [216.141.82.44] ([10.21.127.179]) by xfe-sjc-212.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 29 Nov 2007 19:21:23 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) References: <474F7CC4.6010501@wide.ad.jp> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Fred Baker Subject: Fwd: Itojun gathering at 70th IETF Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 22:21:16 -0500 To: IETF V6OPS WG X-Pgp-Agent: GPGMail 1.1.2 (Tiger) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) X-OriginalArrivalTime: 30 Nov 2007 03:21:23.0491 (UTC) FILETIME=[15912730:01C83300] DKIM-Signature: v=0.5; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=1971; t=1196392888; x=1197256888; c=relaxed/simple; s=sjdkim4002; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=fred@cisco.com; z=From:=20Fred=20Baker=20 |Subject:=20Fwd=3A=20Itojun=20gathering=20at=2070th=20IETF |Sender:=20; bh=wwVT8LowTrxQCXm3n7x6ez9YszfzsEA6Q7tHVK2DDYY=; b=RJoZKfVhfKjWjT8UbdMqMkNISNgv383GUmt0cL1xx1OqeQG26hJuyi8K27ueljur0b061Ngp +/ua/R5YVwftY6mbUZKgkZXIH0DAbMrP16gKwFQ5eZzatE/2hH0tJ3I4; Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-4; header.From=fred@cisco.com; dkim=pass (si g from cisco.com/sjdkim4002 verified; ); Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 3e15cc4fdc61d7bce84032741d11c8e5 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 FYI Begin forwarded message: > From: Jun Murai > Date: November 29, 2007 10:00:20 PM EST > To: bob.hinden@nokia.com, "fred@cisco. com" , Kurt > Lindqvist , Brian Haberman > , Elwyn Davies , > Jari Arkko , Vixie > Cc: Jun Murai > Subject: Itojun gathering at 70th IETF > Reply-To: junsec > > Dear Friends, > > As many may have heard of the sad news, Itojun (Dr. Junichiro > Hagino) known to the IETF community as the Chair of the IPv6 > working group, active IAB Member, and dedicated researcher to the > deployment of IPv6 standards, passed away on October 29, 2007. > > Itojun has been an important member of the WIDE community, making > numerous worldwide contributions in the field of network computing. > We would like to invite the IETF community to spend time with his > friends and fellow researchers in remembering Itojun. > > The WIDE Project will be holding a gathering to commemorate Itojun > at this upcoming 70th IETF meeting in Vancouver. Please drop by the > Westin Bayshore "Chairman" room on the 2nd floor between > 17:30pm-21:00pm (December 3, 2007) > > If you could share this information with his friends, appreciated. > > We look forward to seeing you there. > > Jun Murai (WIDE Project) > > ---Gathering in Memory of ItoJun--- > Date: December 3, 2007 > Time: 17:30pm-21:00pm (Refreshments and snacks will be served) > Place: Westin Bayshore "Chairman" room on the 2nd floor > > http://www.starwoodhotels.com/westin/property/meetings/ > floor_map_chart.html?propertyID=1080&buildingKey=1001023468&floorKey=2 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iD8DBQFHT4GsbjEdbHIsm0MRAmxUAJ0fswKytZr//gehaZSz+j0eWHIGLgCfT53Y CSJ+yGjAcPNdpRvJjOIwMsY= =bkWP -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Nov 30 01:46:40 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ixze4-0007UL-JD for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 30 Nov 2007 01:46:40 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ixze4-0003X7-9i for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 30 Nov 2007 01:46:40 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IxzYk-0009E2-Aq for v6ops-data@psg.com; Fri, 30 Nov 2007 06:41:10 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [131.107.115.215] (helo=smtp.microsoft.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IxzYZ-0009DU-Lh for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 30 Nov 2007 06:41:04 +0000 Received: from tk1-exhub-c103.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.56.116.114) by TK5-EXGWY-E802.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.168) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.222.3; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 22:40:25 -0800 Received: from TK5-EXMLT-W603.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com (157.54.18.6) by tk1-exhub-c103.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.56.116.114) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 8.1.222.3; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 22:40:59 -0800 Received: from NA-EXMSG-W602.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.198]) by TK5-EXMLT-W603.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com ([157.54.18.6]) with mapi; Thu, 29 Nov 2007 22:40:58 -0800 From: Christian Huitema To: Gert Doering , "todd@fries.net" CC: R?mi Denis-Courmont , v6ops Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 22:40:48 -0800 Subject: RE: "DNS-4to6 automatic mapping" - No more DNS-ALGs & 6then4 DNSqueries Thread-Topic: "DNS-4to6 automatic mapping" - No more DNS-ALGs & 6then4 DNSqueries Thread-Index: Acgy8OYc8De/d6EJSw2VFB9lTW81UwAKqVCA Message-ID: References: <20071129042620.GD12385@fries.net> <873669b00789260010a85fd50b0d6823@chewa.net> <20071129122846.GC14065@fries.net> <200711292019.56452.rdenis@simphalempin.com> <20071129182832.GB6333@fries.net> <20071129184814.GH69215@Space.Net> <20071129185023.GE6333@fries.net> <20071129201058.GI69215@Space.Net> In-Reply-To: <20071129201058.GI69215@Space.Net> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-cr-hashedpuzzle: XV8= Dj9X G46U JTZj OepM Rc1F Z5kI cfOM do17 d8wx gICo lUB6 mJs8 mj/r obmZ sMJb;4;ZwBlAHIAdABAAHMAcABhAGMAZQAuAG4AZQB0ADsAcgBkAGUAbgBpAHMAQABzAGkAbQBwAGgAYQBsAGUAbQBwAGkAbgAuAGMAbwBtADsAdABvAGQAZABAAGYAcgBpAGUAcwAuAG4AZQB0ADsAdgA2AG8AcABzAEAAbwBwAHMALgBpAGUAdABmAC4AbwByAGcA;Sosha1_v1;7;{A88614C8-F250-449D-9FD1-04CC4AFC3B9C};aAB1AGkAdABlAG0AYQBAAHcAaQBuAGQAbwB3AHMALgBtAGkAYwByAG8AcwBvAGYAdAAuAGMAbwBtAA==;Fri, 30 Nov 2007 06:40:48 GMT;UgBFADoAIAAiAEQATgBTAC0ANAB0AG8ANgAgAGEAdQB0AG8AbQBhAHQAaQBjACAAbQBhAHAAcABpAG4AZwAiACAALQAgAE4AbwAgAG0AbwByAGUAIABEAE4AUwAtAEEATABHAHMAIAAmACAANgB0AGgAZQBuADQAIABEAE4AUwBxAHUAZQByAGkAZQBzAA== x-cr-puzzleid: {A88614C8-F250-449D-9FD1-04CC4AFC3B9C} acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 1ac7cc0a4cd376402b85bc1961a86ac2 > Actually this is nitpicking. The *real* problem is that the systems > need a "connect me to this host*name*" system/library call, that will > handle all the underlying combinations and do the right thing, depending > on system preferences and capabilities. Do you mean something like WSAConnectByName (http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-= us/library/ms741557.aspx)? Or maybe "TcpClient.Connect (String, Int32)" (ht= tp://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/system.net.sockets.tcpclient.connect= .aspx)? -- Christian Huitema From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Nov 30 02:58:59 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iy0m3-0007uV-5h for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 30 Nov 2007 02:58:59 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iy0m2-0000CO-OS for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 30 Nov 2007 02:58:59 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Iy0iw-000ENM-Qe for v6ops-data@psg.com; Fri, 30 Nov 2007 07:55:46 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [195.30.1.100] (helo=moebius2.Space.Net) by psg.com with smtp (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Iy0iN-000EJZ-PF for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 30 Nov 2007 07:55:29 +0000 Received: (qmail 96590 invoked by uid 1007); 30 Nov 2007 07:55:10 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=testkey; d=space.net; b=QpBsxdSpOCTUn6DDGVGpsmcoqIt8o2wj3GAuhHsossY6ky67Aby8UmewL7zlPrdQ ; Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 08:55:10 +0100 From: Gert Doering To: Christian Huitema Cc: Gert Doering , "todd@fries.net" , R?mi Denis-Courmont , v6ops Subject: Re: "DNS-4to6 automatic mapping" - No more DNS-ALGs & 6then4 DNSqueries Message-ID: <20071130075510.GL69215@Space.Net> References: <20071129042620.GD12385@fries.net> <873669b00789260010a85fd50b0d6823@chewa.net> <20071129122846.GC14065@fries.net> <200711292019.56452.rdenis@simphalempin.com> <20071129182832.GB6333@fries.net> <20071129184814.GH69215@Space.Net> <20071129185023.GE6333@fries.net> <20071129201058.GI69215@Space.Net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="sIVabKf+JygxgFgo" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-NCC-RegID: de.space Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 7aafa0432175920a4b3e118e16c5cb64 --sIVabKf+JygxgFgo Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, On Thu, Nov 29, 2007 at 10:40:48PM -0800, Christian Huitema wrote: > > Actually this is nitpicking. The *real* problem is that the systems > > need a "connect me to this host*name*" system/library call, that will > > handle all the underlying combinations and do the right thing, depending > > on system preferences and capabilities. >=20 > Do you mean something like WSAConnectByName (http://msdn2.microsoft.com/e= n-us/library/ms741557.aspx)? Or maybe "TcpClient.Connect (String, Int32)"= =20 > (http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/system.net.sockets.tcpclient.co= nnect.aspx)? Exactly something like this. (A bit more generic than "TcpClient.Connect", though. Why TCP only? What about SCTP?) And not only for windows, but standardized across all platforms in more widespread use. Gert Doering -- NetMaster --=20 Total number of prefixes smaller than registry allocations: 110584 SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (89) 32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 --sIVabKf+JygxgFgo Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (FreeBSD) iQCVAwUBR0/B3qkuBuNlUUl1AQJRPwP/fCg/dOCjGi+GAdUr+nJ9fT1G6oi3H0ie of7TdJ61wqkpybQOeev+d/OMEnNdJtdLyphMc7YJIvg9GlQcEfTjfK6WQnYv9AHG aotrtOfsIyuggaIyyJpa1qOK86qd81/jcQLk22PK0dc0R8sy+bt0dxtCICAji0CV AKZjHfzHFj4= =6aWO -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --sIVabKf+JygxgFgo-- From Cyndi@i-zoa.co.kr Fri Nov 30 05:13:02 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iy2rm-0002xS-O7 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 30 Nov 2007 05:13:02 -0500 Received: from chello089078134090.chello.pl ([89.78.134.90]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iy2rm-0000I4-7g for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 30 Nov 2007 05:13:02 -0500 Received: from mateusz ([198.108.19.99] helo=mateusz) by [89.78.134.90] ( sendmail 8.13.3/8.13.1) with esmtpa id 1JIXud-000LKQ-XZ for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 30 Nov 2007 11:13:18 +0100 Message-ID: <000e01c83339$989e9020$5a864e59@mateusz> From: "Cyndi Stuever" To: v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: seuche Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 11:13:04 +0100 Message-ID: <000e01c83339$989e9020$5a864e59@mateusz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 X-Spam-Score: 3.1 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 0f1ff0b0158b41ac6b9548d0972cdd31 if you have trouble keeping it hard how will you survive? http://www.lczbgg.com/ From Brisbygnt@canadianimmigration.org Fri Nov 30 09:03:30 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iy6So-0007zT-K0 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 30 Nov 2007 09:03:30 -0500 Received: from i59f75039.versanet.de ([89.247.80.57]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iy6So-0000yW-2C for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 30 Nov 2007 09:03:30 -0500 Received: from vivien-se6stord ([145.143.11.8] helo=vivien-se6stord) by i59F75039.versanet.de ( sendmail 8.13.3/8.13.1) with esmtpa id 1NjgFN-000LPC-ER for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 30 Nov 2007 15:03:54 +0100 Message-ID: <000601c83359$cc09cf40$3950f759@viviense6stord> From: "Dahn Brisby" To: v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: m|rtslra Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 15:03:34 +0100 Message-ID: <000601c83359$cc09cf40$3950f759@viviense6stord> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 X-Spam-Score: 3.1 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 0f1ff0b0158b41ac6b9548d0972cdd31 Size does matter. 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    ------=_NextPart_000_123F63_01C8337A.0943E3D0-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Nov 30 13:26:31 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IyAZL-0005yI-7h for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 30 Nov 2007 13:26:31 -0500 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IyAZK-0000QL-Qq for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 30 Nov 2007 13:26:31 -0500 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IyAUV-000Brw-Aw for v6ops-data@psg.com; Fri, 30 Nov 2007 18:21:31 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [192.18.43.25] (helo=sca-ea-mail-2.sun.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:DES-CBC3-SHA:168) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IyAUH-000Bqv-CR for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 30 Nov 2007 18:21:25 +0000 Received: from jurassic.eng.sun.com ([129.146.68.36]) by sca-ea-mail-2.sun.com (8.13.7+Sun/8.12.9) with ESMTP id lAUIKg3C004378; Fri, 30 Nov 2007 18:20:42 GMT Received: from [10.7.251.248] (punchin-nordmark.SFBay.Sun.COM [10.7.251.248]) by jurassic.eng.sun.com (8.13.8+Sun/8.13.8) with ESMTP id lAUIK7tT465736 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 30 Nov 2007 10:20:08 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <47505457.6040701@sun.com> Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 10:20:07 -0800 From: Erik Nordmark User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.4 (X11/20070723) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Christian Huitema CC: Gert Doering , "todd@fries.net" , R?mi Denis-Courmont , v6ops Subject: Re: "DNS-4to6 automatic mapping" - No more DNS-ALGs & 6then4 DNSqueries References: <20071129042620.GD12385@fries.net> <873669b00789260010a85fd50b0d6823@chewa.net> <20071129122846.GC14065@fries.net> <200711292019.56452.rdenis@simphalempin.com> <20071129182832.GB6333@fries.net> <20071129184814.GH69215@Space.Net> <20071129185023.GE6333@fries.net> <20071129201058.GI69215@Space.Net> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 7d33c50f3756db14428398e2bdedd581 Christian Huitema wrote: >> Actually this is nitpicking. The *real* problem is that the systems >> need a "connect me to this host*name*" system/library call, that will >> handle all the underlying combinations and do the right thing, depending >> on system preferences and capabilities. > > Do you mean something like WSAConnectByName (http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms741557.aspx)? Or maybe "TcpClient.Connect (String, Int32)" (http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/system.net.sockets.tcpclient.connect.aspx)? Or something like: https://java.sun.com/j2se/1.4.2/docs/api/java/net/Socket.html#Socket(java.lang.String,%20int) TCP is trivial to do. Providing the same capability for applications that use UDP is harder, since one would have to involve the application to get feedback whether a particular IP address worked or not; TCP gets this from the SYN|ACK without application involvement. Erik From IsabelleperHam@ottawaherald.com Fri Nov 30 13:50:15 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IyAwJ-0003XE-1g; Fri, 30 Nov 2007 13:50:15 -0500 Received: from cpe-76-179-151-188.maine.res.rr.com ([76.179.151.188] helo=chad) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IyAwI-0004kI-O9; Fri, 30 Nov 2007 13:50:14 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by host98893262.ottawaherald.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with SMTP id Sbxug6gt32.469853.X6l.tTi.0212536630179 for ; Fri, 30 Nov 2007 13:49:52 +0500 Message-ID: From: "Elise Peacock" To: , =20

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