From v6ops-archive@ietf.org Mon Aug 2 04:00:06 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43CFA3A69B6 for ; Mon, 2 Aug 2010 04:00:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char AE hex): Subject: v6ops-archive VIAGRA \256 Official Site [...] X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -24.048 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-24.048 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=6.293, BAYES_99=3.5, DRUGS_ERECTILE=1, DRUG_ED_CAPS=0.322, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2=4.395, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_08=1.787, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_1=0.001, MANGLED_OFF=2.3, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SUBJECT_NEEDS_ENCODING=0.001, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.931, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nImuGVaUNkLh for ; Mon, 2 Aug 2010 04:00:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 66-119-112-92.pool.ukrtel.net (66-119-112-92.pool.ukrtel.net [92.112.119.66]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 9D3443A67D9 for ; Mon, 2 Aug 2010 03:59:59 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <20100802144623.2714.qmail@66-119-112-92.pool.ukrtel.net> From: v6ops-archive@ietf.org To: v6ops-archive@ietf.org Subject: v6ops-archive VIAGRA ® Official Site 42% 0FF MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 03:59:59 -0700 (PDT)
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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Aug 2 06:14:16 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E2E23A68A2 for ; Mon, 2 Aug 2010 06:14:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.083 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.083 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.052, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=1.396, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, RCVD_NUMERIC_HELO=2.067, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jDoOUlmxNm2J for ; Mon, 2 Aug 2010 06:14:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73EE13A68B8 for ; Mon, 2 Aug 2010 06:14:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ofuji-000Bfc-C0 for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Mon, 02 Aug 2010 13:07:22 +0000 Received: from [64.102.122.148] (helo=rtp-iport-1.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ofujb-000Bdq-Pf for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 02 Aug 2010 13:07:16 +0000 Authentication-Results: rtp-iport-1.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AlcGAFtfVkytJV2b/2dsb2JhbACBRJ1uWwJxphqbA4U5BIh/gj4MAYQB X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.55,302,1278288000"; d="scan'208,217";a="142232156" Received: from rcdn-core-4.cisco.com ([173.37.93.155]) by rtp-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 02 Aug 2010 13:07:14 +0000 Received: from xbh-rcd-101.cisco.com (xbh-rcd-101.cisco.com [72.163.62.138]) by rcdn-core-4.cisco.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o72D7E5f022784; Mon, 2 Aug 2010 13:07:14 GMT Received: from xmb-rcd-201.cisco.com ([72.163.62.208]) by xbh-rcd-101.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Mon, 2 Aug 2010 08:07:13 -0500 Received: from 161.44.175.133 ([161.44.175.133]) by XMB-RCD-201.cisco.com ([72.163.62.208]) with Microsoft Exchange Server HTTP-DAV ; Mon, 2 Aug 2010 13:07:13 +0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/12.25.0.100505 Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 09:07:11 -0400 Subject: Re: draft-gundavelli-v6ops-l2-unicast WGLC From: Wes Beebee To: Fred Baker , IPv6 Operations , 6man Mailing List CC: Kurt Erik Lindqvist Message-ID: Thread-Topic: draft-gundavelli-v6ops-l2-unicast WGLC Thread-Index: AcsyQ55JRvnM4P+cN0KEvZhYfGVo3A== In-Reply-To: <392017B9-C173-4A53-99E7-6FFF8BB24FEB@cisco.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="B_3363584832_147934" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 02 Aug 2010 13:07:13.0907 (UTC) FILETIME=[A004FC30:01CB3243] Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --B_3363584832_147934 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable One of the problems I have with this draft is that I don=B9t think all of the hardware platforms necessarily will support it in hardware. Saying, =B3oh well, it=B9s a layer violation=B2, is not good enough =AD we routinely look at th= e ethertype (in the L2 header) of the packet and match it up with the L3 header to prevent bogus packets from exercising paths in the router that ca= n lead to crashes. This is called =B3sanity check=B2, and it is used for both security and stability reasons. Just because the RP doesn=B9t do this kind of check (presumably for performance/layering reasons), doesn=B9t mean that the check isn=B9t being done in hardware. Good luck trying to get the hardware teams to upgrade their hardware... - Wes=20 On 7/31/10 1:54 AM, "Fred Baker" wrote: > This is to initiate a two week working group last call of > draft-gundavelli-v6ops-l2-unicast. Please read it now. If you find nits > (spelling errors, minor suggested wording changes, etc), comment to the > authors; if you find greater issues, such as disagreeing with a statement= or > finding additional issues that need to be addressed, please post your com= ments > to the combined lists. >=20 > We are looking specifically for comments on the importance of the documen= t as > well as its content. If you have read the document and believe it to be o= f > operational utility, that is also an important comment to make. > =20 >=20 >=20 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- --B_3363584832_147934 Content-type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Re: draft-gundavelli-v6ops-l2-unicast WGLC One of the problems I have with this draft is that I don’t think all= of the hardware platforms necessarily will support it in hardware.  Sa= ying, “oh well, it’s a layer violation”, is not good enoug= h – we routinely look at the ethertype (in the L2 header) of the packe= t and match it up with the L3 header to prevent bogus packets from exercisin= g paths in the router that can lead to crashes.  This is called
“sanity check”, and it is used for both security and stability = reasons.  Just because the RP doesn’t do this kind of check (pres= umably for performance/layering reasons), doesn’t mean that the check = isn’t being done in hardware.   Good luck trying to get the = hardware teams to upgrade their hardware...

- Wes


On 7/31/10 1:54 AM, "Fred Baker" <fre= d@cisco.com> wrote:

This is to initiate a two week working gro= up last call of draft-gundavelli-v6ops-l2-unicast. Please read it now. If yo= u find nits (spelling errors, minor suggested wording changes, etc), comment= to the authors; if you find greater issues, such as disagreeing with a stat= ement or finding additional issues that need to be addressed, please post yo= ur comments to the combined lists.

We are looking specifically for comments on the import= ance of the document as well as its content. If you have read the document a= nd believe it to be of operational utility, that is also an important commen= t to make.

-----------= ---------------------------------------------------------
IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
ipv6@ietf.org
Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6
--------------------------------------------------------------------
--B_3363584832_147934-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Aug 2 06:26:31 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FFE73A687A for ; Mon, 2 Aug 2010 06:26:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.664 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.664 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.236, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, RCVD_NUMERIC_HELO=2.067, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yuTwGUpKzx9U for ; Mon, 2 Aug 2010 06:26:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D1BE3A69D0 for ; Mon, 2 Aug 2010 06:26:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ofv0p-000EET-CQ for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Mon, 02 Aug 2010 13:25:03 +0000 Received: from [64.102.122.148] (helo=rtp-iport-1.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ofv0m-000EDo-Um for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 02 Aug 2010 13:25:01 +0000 Authentication-Results: rtp-iport-1.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AugFAAtkVkytJV2a/2dsb2JhbACHZ5gmAnGmM5sGhTkEiH+CPgwBhAE X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.55,302,1278288000"; d="scan'208";a="142238729" Received: from rcdn-core-3.cisco.com ([173.37.93.154]) by rtp-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 02 Aug 2010 13:24:59 +0000 Received: from xbh-rcd-201.cisco.com (xbh-rcd-201.cisco.com [72.163.62.200]) by rcdn-core-3.cisco.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o72DOxvG032037; Mon, 2 Aug 2010 13:24:59 GMT Received: from xmb-rcd-201.cisco.com ([72.163.62.208]) by xbh-rcd-201.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Mon, 2 Aug 2010 08:24:59 -0500 Received: from 161.44.175.133 ([161.44.175.133]) by XMB-RCD-201.cisco.com ([72.163.62.208]) with Microsoft Exchange Server HTTP-DAV ; Mon, 2 Aug 2010 13:24:58 +0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/12.25.0.100505 Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 09:24:57 -0400 Subject: Re: draft-gundavelli-v6ops-l2-unicast WGLC From: Wes Beebee To: Mark Smith , Fred Baker CC: IPv6 Operations , 6man Mailing List , Kurt Erik Lindqvist Message-ID: Thread-Topic: draft-gundavelli-v6ops-l2-unicast WGLC Thread-Index: AcsyRhmswAVH5r9vy0uo2OCYdJPSyQ== In-Reply-To: <20100801104025.7d43531e@opy.nosense.org> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 02 Aug 2010 13:24:59.0251 (UTC) FILETIME=[1B039430:01CB3246] Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: > As this draft is changing what has been a fundamental and fixed > assumption for a very long time (i.e. layer 3 multicast always equals > layer 2 multicast), I think it's important that use cases supporting it > are very clear in what they're trying to achieve and why allowing > multicast layer 3 addresses maps to layer 2 unicast is the best way to > solve those problems. A bit more detail in these use cases would help. As I understand it, the use case is a fast RA handover when a link first comes up. They don't want to wait for an NS(DAD) (otherwise they could just use the LLA from the NS(DAD) as the RA destination, problem solved) - so they want to be able to send packets without having a L3 unicast destination. L3 multicast allows them to do that - but then they need L2 unicast because they really want to send a unicast packet without the L3 unicast address. The L3 multicast address is just being used to make sure that the node processes the packet. The problem is that this assumption of L3 multicast comes with L2 multicast is a very deeply imbedded assumption in current implementations - and it would take analysis of the whole box including not only the software, but also the hardware, in order to see if this can be supported. As far as I know, the software analysis has been done for some implementations, but the hardware analysis has not yet been performed. - Wes From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Aug 2 06:57:22 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CBD633A68D0 for ; Mon, 2 Aug 2010 06:57:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.158 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.158 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.663, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5Mt0PvQqzgyy for ; Mon, 2 Aug 2010 06:57:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFD033A6855 for ; Mon, 2 Aug 2010 06:57:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OfvUC-000Iw2-DU for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Mon, 02 Aug 2010 13:55:24 +0000 Received: from [64.102.122.149] (helo=rtp-iport-2.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OfvU9-000IvN-Se for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 02 Aug 2010 13:55:22 +0000 Authentication-Results: rtp-iport-2.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AvsEAK1qVkxAZnwM/2dsb2JhbACgD3GmUZsHhTkEiH+CPg X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.55,302,1278288000"; d="scan'208";a="142295798" Received: from rtp-core-1.cisco.com ([64.102.124.12]) by rtp-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 02 Aug 2010 13:55:20 +0000 Received: from xbh-ams-201.cisco.com (xbh-ams-201.cisco.com [144.254.75.7]) by rtp-core-1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o72DtK4b015012; Mon, 2 Aug 2010 13:55:20 GMT Received: from xmb-ams-111.cisco.com ([144.254.74.86]) by xbh-ams-201.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Mon, 2 Aug 2010 15:55:20 +0200 Received: from 10.55.215.39 ([10.55.215.39]) by XMB-AMS-111.cisco.com ([144.254.74.86]) with Microsoft Exchange Server HTTP-DAV ; Mon, 2 Aug 2010 13:55:19 +0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/12.25.0.100505 Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 15:55:16 +0200 Subject: Re: draft-gundavelli-v6ops-l2-unicast WGLC From: Wojciech Dec To: Wes Beebee , Mark Smith , Fred Baker CC: IPv6 Operations , 6man Mailing List , Kurt Erik Lindqvist Message-ID: Thread-Topic: draft-gundavelli-v6ops-l2-unicast WGLC Thread-Index: AcsyRhmswAVH5r9vy0uo2OCYdJPSyQABDw0w In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 02 Aug 2010 13:55:20.0120 (UTC) FILETIME=[58562380:01CB324A] Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: On 02/08/2010 15:24, "Wes Beebee" wrote: >> As this draft is changing what has been a fundamental and fixed >> assumption for a very long time (i.e. layer 3 multicast always equals >> layer 2 multicast), I think it's important that use cases supporting it >> are very clear in what they're trying to achieve and why allowing >> multicast layer 3 addresses maps to layer 2 unicast is the best way to >> solve those problems. A bit more detail in these use cases would help. > > As I understand it, the use case is a fast RA handover when a link first > comes up. They don't want to wait for an NS(DAD) (otherwise they could just > use the LLA from the NS(DAD) as the RA destination, problem solved) - so > they want to be able to send packets without having a L3 unicast > destination. L3 multicast allows them to do that - but then they need L2 > unicast because they really want to send a unicast packet without the L3 > unicast address. The L3 multicast address is just being used to make sure > that the node processes the packet. That is not quite so. There are numerous L2 protocols that do not map a L3 mcast to L2, eg PPP. One could even say PPPoE. The technique has been used for years in Wifi 802.11 too, besides regular IPv4 over ethernet which is implied as the only L2 here. > > The problem is that this assumption of L3 multicast comes with L2 multicast > is a very deeply imbedded assumption in current implementations - and it > would take analysis of the whole box including not only the software, but > also the hardware, in order to see if this can be supported. As far as I > know, the software analysis has been done for some implementations, but the > hardware analysis has not yet been performed. - (as mentioned) The technique has and is being used (broadly) for IPv4 over ethernet There is nothing that is in IPv6, or IPv4, specs which makes such a check required - There is no known good reason why an implementation should check (at sw or hw) that an L2 frame containing an L3 *mcast* packet with a matching L2 *mcast* address. As such, if in some nook or cranny there is a device doing this sort of thing in hw or sw, i.e. it's likely a bug. You're welcome to point us to any documented cases where usage of such a "check" is necessary. Until these are revealed, there is hardly a case for requesting more "analysis" -Woj. > > - Wes > > From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Aug 2 07:13:24 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7BD03A67AE for ; Mon, 2 Aug 2010 07:13:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.029 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.029 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.524, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id B3kWwoLTbc+p for ; Mon, 2 Aug 2010 07:13:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FC103A6B53 for ; Mon, 2 Aug 2010 07:13:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ofvim-000LMt-NL for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Mon, 02 Aug 2010 14:10:28 +0000 Received: from [128.18.30.17] (helo=mail1.sri.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ofvij-000LM9-H7 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 02 Aug 2010 14:10:25 +0000 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-type: text/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII; format=flowed Received: from [192.168.1.137] ([unknown] [68.81.23.44]) by mail.sri.com (Sun Java(tm) System Messaging Server 7u2-7.05 32bit (built Jul 30 2009)) with ESMTPSA id <0L6J0049V3DBC320@mail.sri.com> for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 02 Aug 2010 07:10:24 -0700 (PDT) Message-id: <4C56D1D2.7040409@sri.com> Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 10:10:26 -0400 From: Ed Jankiewicz User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.9.2.7) Gecko/20100713 Thunderbird/3.1.1 To: "Latif LADID (\"The New Internet based on IPv6\")" , IPv6 Operations , 6man , IPv6 TWG Subject: IPv6 covered on Weekend Edition Sunday : NPR Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: John Curran - President ARIN discusses IPv4 exhaustion and the transition to IPv6 with Liane Hansen on the NPR Weekend Edition Sunday show on Aug 1. Mainstream media coverage of this is increasing, although the issue has not sunk in to the general public much yet. Keep spreading the word. http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=10 - Sent using Google Toolbar From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Aug 2 07:13:41 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 560FA3A6B54 for ; Mon, 2 Aug 2010 07:13:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -8.398 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-8.398 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.300, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=1.396, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id a3D9z+tCCRl6 for ; Mon, 2 Aug 2010 07:13:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C459E3A6B63 for ; Mon, 2 Aug 2010 07:13:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ofviq-000LNO-EF for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Mon, 02 Aug 2010 14:10:32 +0000 Received: from [171.68.10.87] (helo=sj-iport-5.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ofvil-000LMR-9C for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 02 Aug 2010 14:10:27 +0000 Authentication-Results: sj-iport-5.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Au4FAJduVkyrRN+J/2dsb2JhbACBRJ1uXXGmYJsJhTkEiH+CPg X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.55,303,1278288000"; d="scan'208,217";a="234108124" Received: from sj-core-3.cisco.com ([171.68.223.137]) by sj-iport-5.cisco.com with ESMTP; 02 Aug 2010 14:10:26 +0000 Received: from xbh-ams-101.cisco.com (xbh-ams-101.cisco.com [144.254.74.71]) by sj-core-3.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o72EABaV024276; Mon, 2 Aug 2010 14:10:26 GMT Received: from xmb-ams-111.cisco.com ([144.254.74.86]) by xbh-ams-101.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Mon, 2 Aug 2010 16:10:25 +0200 Received: from 10.55.215.39 ([10.55.215.39]) by XMB-AMS-111.cisco.com ([144.254.74.86]) with Microsoft Exchange Server HTTP-DAV ; Mon, 2 Aug 2010 14:10:24 +0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/12.25.0.100505 Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 16:10:21 +0200 Subject: Re: draft-gundavelli-v6ops-l2-unicast WGLC From: Wojciech Dec To: Wes Beebee , Fred Baker , IPv6 Operations , 6man Mailing List CC: Kurt Erik Lindqvist Message-ID: Thread-Topic: draft-gundavelli-v6ops-l2-unicast WGLC Thread-Index: AcsyQ55JRvnM4P+cN0KEvZhYfGVo3AACNMEr In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="B_3363610222_30380798" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 02 Aug 2010 14:10:25.0172 (UTC) FILETIME=[73CA1D40:01CB324C] Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --B_3363610222_30380798 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable On 02/08/2010 15:07, "Wes Beebee" wrote: > One of the problems I have with this draft is that I don=B9t think all of t= he > hardware platforms necessarily will support it in hardware. Saying, =B3oh = well, > it=B9s a layer violation=B2, is not good enough =AD we routinely look at the > ethertype (in the L2 header) of the packet and match it up with the L3 he= ader > to prevent bogus packets from exercising paths in the router that can lea= d to > crashes. This is called > =B3sanity check=B2, and it is used for both security and stability reasons. = Just > because the RP doesn=B9t do this kind of check (presumably for > performance/layering reasons), doesn=B9t mean that the check isn=B9t being do= ne in > hardware. Good luck trying to get the hardware teams to upgrade their > hardware... >=20 > Woj> It=B9s useful to point out that such a check is done based on L2/L3 so= urce > addresses, NOT destination. As per the other thread, we=B9d be interested t= o > hear of documented cases where such L2/L3 destination checking is used fo= r > mcast. We have not found any. >=20 > -Woj. >=20 > - Wes=20 >=20 >=20 > On 7/31/10 1:54 AM, "Fred Baker" wrote: >=20 >> This is to initiate a two week working group last call of >> draft-gundavelli-v6ops-l2-unicast. Please read it now. If you find nits >> (spelling errors, minor suggested wording changes, etc), comment to the >> authors; if you find greater issues, such as disagreeing with a statemen= t or >> finding additional issues that need to be addressed, please post your >> comments to the combined lists. >>=20 >> We are looking specifically for comments on the importance of the docume= nt as >> well as its content. If you have read the document and believe it to be = of >> operational utility, that is also an important comment to make. >> =20 >>=20 >>=20 >> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list >> ipv6@ietf.org >> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 >> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >=20 --B_3363610222_30380798 Content-type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Re: draft-gundavelli-v6ops-l2-unicast WGLC


On 02/08/2010 15:07, "Wes Beebee" <wbeebee@cisco.com> wrote:

<= SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:11pt'>One of the problems I have with this draft is th= at I don’t think all of the hardware platforms necessarily will suppor= t it in hardware.  Saying, “oh well, it’s a layer violation= ”, is not good enough – we routinely look at the ethertype (in t= he L2 header) of the packet and match it up with the L3 header to prevent bo= gus packets from exercising paths in the router that can lead to crashes. &n= bsp;This is called
“sanity check”, and it is used for both security and stability = reasons.  Just because the RP doesn’t do this kind of check (pres= umably for performance/layering reasons), doesn’t mean that the check = isn’t being done in hardware.   Good luck trying to get the = hardware teams to upgrade their hardware...

Woj> It’s useful to point out that such a check is done based on L= 2/L3 source addresses, NOT destination. As per the other threa= d, we’d be interested to hear of documented cases where such L2/L3 des= tination checking is used for mcast. We have not found any.

-Woj.

- Wes


On 7/31/10 1:54 AM, "Fred Baker" <fre= d@cisco.com> wrote:

This is to initiate a two week working gro= up last call of draft-gundavelli-v6ops-l2-unicast. Please read it now. If yo= u find nits (spelling errors, minor suggested wording changes, etc), comment= to the authors; if you find greater issues, such as disagreeing with a stat= ement or finding additional issues that need to be addressed, please post yo= ur comments to the combined lists.

We are looking specifically for comments on the import= ance of the document as well as its content. If you have read the document a= nd believe it to be of operational utility, that is also an important commen= t to make.

-----------= ---------------------------------------------------------
IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
ipv6@ietf.org
Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6
--------------------------------------------------------------------

--B_3363610222_30380798-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Aug 2 09:35:47 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCE083A6950 for ; Mon, 2 Aug 2010 09:35:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.942 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.942 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.911, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=1.396, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, RCVD_NUMERIC_HELO=2.067, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3m-sVCKO4yMY for ; Mon, 2 Aug 2010 09:35:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10E7B3A67E7 for ; Mon, 2 Aug 2010 09:35:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ofxuh-000G6L-8t for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Mon, 02 Aug 2010 16:30:55 +0000 Received: from [64.102.122.148] (helo=rtp-iport-1.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ofxuc-000G5N-KD for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 02 Aug 2010 16:30:51 +0000 Authentication-Results: rtp-iport-1.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AlAHAGePVkytJV2d/2dsb2JhbACBRJ1yWwJxqCSbIYU5BIh/gj4MAYQB X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.55,303,1278288000"; d="scan'208,217";a="142318570" Received: from rcdn-core-6.cisco.com ([173.37.93.157]) by rtp-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 02 Aug 2010 16:30:49 +0000 Received: from xbh-rcd-302.cisco.com (xbh-rcd-302.cisco.com [72.163.63.9]) by rcdn-core-6.cisco.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o72GUmr1009664; Mon, 2 Aug 2010 16:30:48 GMT Received: from xmb-rcd-201.cisco.com ([72.163.62.208]) by xbh-rcd-302.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Mon, 2 Aug 2010 11:30:48 -0500 Received: from 161.44.175.133 ([161.44.175.133]) by XMB-RCD-201.cisco.com ([72.163.62.208]) with Microsoft Exchange Server HTTP-DAV ; Mon, 2 Aug 2010 16:30:48 +0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/12.25.0.100505 Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 12:30:47 -0400 Subject: Re: draft-gundavelli-v6ops-l2-unicast WGLC From: Wes Beebee To: Fred Baker , IPv6 Operations , 6man Mailing List CC: Kurt Erik Lindqvist Message-ID: Thread-Topic: draft-gundavelli-v6ops-l2-unicast WGLC Thread-Index: AcsyYA+XD27bd40040WbXNwekFMDTQ== In-Reply-To: <392017B9-C173-4A53-99E7-6FFF8BB24FEB@cisco.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="B_3363597047_890570" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 02 Aug 2010 16:30:48.0975 (UTC) FILETIME=[10C471F0:01CB3260] Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --B_3363597047_890570 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable In case people haven=B9t had time to read the whole draft, the key standards track change to existing RFC=B9s is: =B3An IPv6 receiver node SHOULD NOT drop a received IPv6 multicast message containing a multicast destination address in the IPv6 header, but with a unicast destination address in the link-layer header, withstanding all other validity considerations as specified in the relevant IPv6 standards specifications.=B2 =B3An IPv6 sender node MAY choose to transmit an IPv6 multicast message as a link-layer unicast message.=B2 - Wes On 7/31/10 1:54 AM, "Fred Baker" wrote: > This is to initiate a two week working group last call of > draft-gundavelli-v6ops-l2-unicast. Please read it now. If you find nits > (spelling errors, minor suggested wording changes, etc), comment to the > authors; if you find greater issues, such as disagreeing with a statement= or > finding additional issues that need to be addressed, please post your com= ments > to the combined lists. >=20 > We are looking specifically for comments on the importance of the documen= t as > well as its content. If you have read the document and believe it to be o= f > operational utility, that is also an important comment to make. > =20 >=20 >=20 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- --B_3363597047_890570 Content-type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Re: draft-gundavelli-v6ops-l2-unicast WGLC In case people haven’t had time to read the whole draft, the key sta= ndards track change to existing RFC’s is:

“An IPv6 receiver node SHOULD NOT drop a received IPv= 6 multicast
 message containing a multicast destination address in the IPv6
 header, but with a unicast destination address in the link-layer
 header, withstanding all other validity considerations as
 specified in the relevant IPv6 standards specifications.”

“An IPv6 sender node MAY choose to transmit an IPv6 multicast
 message as a link-layer unicast message.”

- Wes

On 7/31/10 1:54 AM, "Fred Baker" <fre= d@cisco.com> wrote:

This is to initiate a two week working gro= up last call of draft-gundavelli-v6ops-l2-unicast. Please read it now. If yo= u find nits (spelling errors, minor suggested wording changes, etc), comment= to the authors; if you find greater issues, such as disagreeing with a stat= ement or finding additional issues that need to be addressed, please post yo= ur comments to the combined lists.

We are looking specifically for comments on the import= ance of the document as well as its content. If you have read the document a= nd believe it to be of operational utility, that is also an important commen= t to make.

-----------= ---------------------------------------------------------
IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
ipv6@ietf.org
Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6
--------------------------------------------------------------------
--B_3363597047_890570-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Aug 2 11:12:47 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC02C3A6C03 for ; Mon, 2 Aug 2010 11:12:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -109.245 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-109.245 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.750, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, RDNS_NONE=0.1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fi-gu6kYzucT for ; Mon, 2 Aug 2010 11:12:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 237AB3A6C0E for ; Mon, 2 Aug 2010 11:12:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OfzSL-0004H6-Fn for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Mon, 02 Aug 2010 18:09:45 +0000 Received: from [64.102.122.149] (helo=rtp-iport-2.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OfzSI-0004GQ-6Y for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 02 Aug 2010 18:09:42 +0000 Authentication-Results: rtp-iport-2.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.55,304,1278288000"; d="scan'208";a="142426191" Received: from rtp-core-2.cisco.com ([64.102.124.13]) by rtp-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 02 Aug 2010 18:09:28 +0000 Received: from ip212-238-53-25.hotspotsvankpn.com (rtp-vpn4-320.cisco.com [10.82.209.64]) by rtp-core-2.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o72I9Kd5017560; Mon, 2 Aug 2010 18:09:22 GMT Received: from [127.0.0.1] by ip212-238-53-25.hotspotsvankpn.com (PGP Universal service); Mon, 02 Aug 2010 20:09:28 +0200 X-PGP-Universal: processed; by ip212-238-53-25.hotspotsvankpn.com on Mon, 02 Aug 2010 20:09:28 +0200 Subject: Re: draft-gundavelli-v6ops-l2-unicast WGLC Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1081) From: Fred Baker In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 20:09:13 +0200 Cc: IPv6 Operations , 6man Mailing List , Kurt Erik Lindqvist Message-Id: <35EC7A29-8C16-4632-84C8-95988F49E92C@cisco.com> References: To: Wes Beebee X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1081) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: Can you point us to the text in RFC 3810 that says "an IPv6 Receiver = Node SHOULD drop..." and "...MAY NOT..."? The paragraphs in RFC 3810 that contain the word "unicast" read: o "source list" is an unordered list of zero or more unicast addresses from which multicast reception is desired or not desired, depending on the filter mode. An implementation MAY impose a limit on the size of source lists. When an operation causes the source list size limit to be exceeded, the service interface SHOULD return an error. The Source Address [i] fields are a vector of n unicast addresses, where n is the value in the Number of Sources (N) field. In MLDv2, General Queries are sent to the link-scope all-nodes multicast address (FF02::1). Multicast Address Specific and Multicast Address and Source Specific Queries are sent with an IP destination address equal to the multicast address of interest. *However*, a node MUST accept and process any Query whose IP Destination Address field contains *any* of the addresses (unicast or multicast) assigned to the interface on which the Query arrives. This might be useful, e.g., for debugging purposes. The Source Address [i] fields are a vector of n unicast addresses, where n is the value in this record's Number of Sources (N) field. Version 2 Multicast Listener Reports are sent with an IP destination address of FF02:0:0:0:0:0:0:16, to which all MLDv2-capable multicast routers listen (see section 11 for IANA considerations related to this special destination address). A node that operates in version 1 compatibility mode (see details in section 8) sends version 1 Reports to the multicast address specified in the Multicast Address field of the Report. In addition, a node MUST accept and process any version 1 Report whose IP Destination Address field contains *any* of the IPv6 addresses (unicast or multicast) assigned to the interface on which the Report arrives. This might be useful, e.g., for debugging purposes. What you are arguing is that a statement which is not made in the RFC is = normative in the way you interpret it, and making a statement that = disagrees with your preconception but disagrees with no statement = actually made in the RFC is a protocol error. As I read it, RFC 3810 = doesn't normally expect it (for obvious reasons) but doesn't preclude = it. This memo commits the egregious sin of making the statement and = specifying the cases in which it is argued to be appropriate. On Aug 2, 2010, at 6:30 PM, Wes Beebee wrote: > In case people haven=92t had time to read the whole draft, the key = standards track change to existing RFC=92s is: >=20 > =93An IPv6 receiver node SHOULD NOT drop a received IPv6 multicast=20 > message containing a multicast destination address in the IPv6 > header, but with a unicast destination address in the link-layer > header, withstanding all other validity considerations as > specified in the relevant IPv6 standards specifications.=94 >=20 > =93An IPv6 sender node MAY choose to transmit an IPv6 multicast > message as a link-layer unicast message.=94 >=20 > - Wes >=20 > On 7/31/10 1:54 AM, "Fred Baker" wrote: >=20 >> This is to initiate a two week working group last call of = draft-gundavelli-v6ops-l2-unicast. Please read it now. If you find nits = (spelling errors, minor suggested wording changes, etc), comment to the = authors; if you find greater issues, such as disagreeing with a = statement or finding additional issues that need to be addressed, please = post your comments to the combined lists. >>=20 >> We are looking specifically for comments on the importance of the = document as well as its content. If you have read the document and = believe it to be of operational utility, that is also an important = comment to make. >>=20 >>=20 >> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list >> ipv6@ietf.org >> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 >> -------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.ipinc.net/IPv4.GIF From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Aug 2 11:57:03 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F54A3A69D3 for ; Mon, 2 Aug 2010 11:57:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -109.237 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-109.237 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.742, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, RDNS_NONE=0.1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1+Xb4Sjtfleo for ; Mon, 2 Aug 2010 11:57:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 247CC3A6C2C for ; Mon, 2 Aug 2010 11:57:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Og0A5-000B4J-SA for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Mon, 02 Aug 2010 18:54:57 +0000 Received: from [64.102.122.148] (helo=rtp-iport-1.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Og0A2-000B3n-Nu for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 02 Aug 2010 18:54:55 +0000 Authentication-Results: rtp-iport-1.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.55,304,1278288000"; d="scan'208";a="142393623" Received: from rtp-core-2.cisco.com ([64.102.124.13]) by rtp-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 02 Aug 2010 18:54:50 +0000 Received: from ip212-238-53-25.hotspotsvankpn.com (rtp-vpn4-320.cisco.com [10.82.209.64]) by rtp-core-2.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o72Iseql003343; Mon, 2 Aug 2010 18:54:43 GMT Received: from [127.0.0.1] by ip212-238-53-25.hotspotsvankpn.com (PGP Universal service); Mon, 02 Aug 2010 20:54:50 +0200 X-PGP-Universal: processed; by ip212-238-53-25.hotspotsvankpn.com on Mon, 02 Aug 2010 20:54:50 +0200 Subject: Re: draft-gundavelli-v6ops-l2-unicast WGLC Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1081) From: Fred Baker In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 20:54:33 +0200 Cc: Mark Smith , IPv6 Operations , 6man Mailing List , Kurt Erik Lindqvist Message-Id: <511B2381-E81F-4912-BA96-66E9FBC9C09C@cisco.com> References: To: Wes Beebee X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1081) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: The other truly obvious use case, standard in IPv4 ARP, is when = refreshing an ARP/ND entry. You already know the MAC address, the = question is whether the guy is still there or not. In IPv4, we (pretty = much everybody) unicast the ARP request to the most recent MAC address; = it either responds or doesn't. If it doesn't, we broadcast the = retransmission. In IPv6, we would unicast the Neighbor Solicit and = multicast a retransmission of said request. On Aug 2, 2010, at 3:24 PM, Wes Beebee wrote: >> As this draft is changing what has been a fundamental and fixed >> assumption for a very long time (i.e. layer 3 multicast always equals >> layer 2 multicast), I think it's important that use cases supporting = it >> are very clear in what they're trying to achieve and why allowing >> multicast layer 3 addresses maps to layer 2 unicast is the best way = to >> solve those problems. A bit more detail in these use cases would = help. >=20 > As I understand it, the use case is a fast RA handover when a link = first > comes up. They don't want to wait for an NS(DAD) (otherwise they = could just > use the LLA from the NS(DAD) as the RA destination, problem solved) - = so > they want to be able to send packets without having a L3 unicast > destination. L3 multicast allows them to do that - but then they need = L2 > unicast because they really want to send a unicast packet without the = L3 > unicast address. The L3 multicast address is just being used to make = sure > that the node processes the packet. >=20 > The problem is that this assumption of L3 multicast comes with L2 = multicast > is a very deeply imbedded assumption in current implementations - and = it > would take analysis of the whole box including not only the software, = but > also the hardware, in order to see if this can be supported. As far = as I > know, the software analysis has been done for some implementations, = but the > hardware analysis has not yet been performed. >=20 > - Wes >=20 http://www.ipinc.net/IPv4.GIF From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Aug 2 13:30:17 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D794E3A6C67 for ; Mon, 2 Aug 2010 13:30:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.346 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.346 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.852, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XQJBRIO-MCWW for ; Mon, 2 Aug 2010 13:30:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E2C33A6784 for ; Mon, 2 Aug 2010 13:30:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Og1Zs-000OBn-F0 for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Mon, 02 Aug 2010 20:25:40 +0000 Received: from [64.102.122.148] (helo=rtp-iport-1.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Og1Zm-000O9h-0h for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 02 Aug 2010 20:25:34 +0000 Authentication-Results: rtp-iport-1.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AoEFAHvGVkytJV2Z/2dsb2JhbACBRJ4/caoYm0yFOQSEFocnDAE X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.55,304,1278288000"; d="scan'208,217";a="142420371" Received: from rcdn-core-2.cisco.com ([173.37.93.153]) by rtp-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 02 Aug 2010 20:25:32 +0000 Received: from xbh-rcd-102.cisco.com (xbh-rcd-102.cisco.com [72.163.62.139]) by rcdn-core-2.cisco.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o72KPWDb008377; Mon, 2 Aug 2010 20:25:32 GMT Received: from xmb-rcd-114.cisco.com ([72.163.62.156]) by xbh-rcd-102.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Mon, 2 Aug 2010 15:25:32 -0500 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01CB3280.DACA8985" Subject: RE: draft-gundavelli-v6ops-l2-unicast WGLC Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 15:24:44 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: draft-gundavelli-v6ops-l2-unicast WGLC Thread-Index: AcsyYA+XD27bd40040WbXNwekFMDTQAHdnig References: <392017B9-C173-4A53-99E7-6FFF8BB24FEB@cisco.com> From: "Hemant Singh (shemant)" To: "Wes Beebee (wbeebee)" , "Fred Baker (fred)" , "IPv6 Operations" , "6man Mailing List" Cc: "Kurt Erik Lindqvist" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 02 Aug 2010 20:25:32.0105 (UTC) FILETIME=[DAF78B90:01CB3280] Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01CB3280.DACA8985 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sri and other authors, =20 Could you please note that the key change in your document is what Wes has emailed today to us. However, I am puzzled by the normative text in your document for the key change. If a host decides to transmit an IPv6 multicast message as a link-layer unicast message, then as per your receiver specification, a receiver is still legal to drop such a message. All you have is a "SHOULD NOT drop" which an implementation can still not adhere to and drop the message. If the receiver drops this doctored multicast message, then your goal is not even met. I think only a "MUST NOT drop" meets your needs. It would be good to articulate what set of problems are we trying to solve and then we will see what solutions are needed including any changes to existing RFC's. I have already asked once in the mailer for what specifications exist in the IETF that document the problem cases enumerated by DSL folks or wireless LAN folks. =20 Thanks, =20 Hemant =20 From: ipv6-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ipv6-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Wes Beebee (wbeebee) Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 12:31 PM To: Fred Baker (fred); IPv6 Operations; 6man Mailing List Cc: Kurt Erik Lindqvist Subject: Re: draft-gundavelli-v6ops-l2-unicast WGLC =20 In case people haven't had time to read the whole draft, the key standards track change to existing RFC's is: "An IPv6 receiver node SHOULD NOT drop a received IPv6 multicast=20 message containing a multicast destination address in the IPv6 header, but with a unicast destination address in the link-layer header, withstanding all other validity considerations as specified in the relevant IPv6 standards specifications." "An IPv6 sender node MAY choose to transmit an IPv6 multicast message as a link-layer unicast message." - Wes On 7/31/10 1:54 AM, "Fred Baker" wrote: This is to initiate a two week working group last call of draft-gundavelli-v6ops-l2-unicast. Please read it now. If you find nits (spelling errors, minor suggested wording changes, etc), comment to the authors; if you find greater issues, such as disagreeing with a statement or finding additional issues that need to be addressed, please post your comments to the combined lists. We are looking specifically for comments on the importance of the document as well as its content. If you have read the document and believe it to be of operational utility, that is also an important comment to make. ________________________________ -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPv6 working group mailing list ipv6@ietf.org Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 -------------------------------------------------------------------- ------_=_NextPart_001_01CB3280.DACA8985 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: draft-gundavelli-v6ops-l2-unicast WGLC

Sri and other authors,

 

Could you please note that the key change in your = document is what Wes has emailed today to us.   However, I am puzzled by = the normative text in your document for the key change.  If a host = decides to transmit an IPv6 multicast message as a link-layer unicast message, then = as per your receiver specification, a receiver is still legal to drop such a message.   All you have is a “SHOULD NOT drop” = which an implementation can still not adhere to and drop the message.  If = the receiver drops this doctored multicast message, then your goal is not = even met.   I think only a “MUST NOT drop” meets your needs. =    It would be good to articulate what set of problems are we trying to solve = and then we will see what solutions are needed including any changes to = existing RFC’s.   I have already asked once in the mailer for what = specifications exist in the IETF that document the problem cases enumerated by DSL = folks or wireless LAN folks.

 

Thanks,

 

Hemant

 

From:= = ipv6-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ipv6-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Wes Beebee = (wbeebee)
Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 12:31 PM
To: Fred Baker (fred); IPv6 Operations; 6man Mailing List
Cc: Kurt Erik Lindqvist
Subject: Re: draft-gundavelli-v6ops-l2-unicast = WGLC

 

In case people haven’t had = time to read the whole draft, the key standards track change to existing = RFC’s is:

“An = IPv6 receiver node SHOULD NOT drop a received IPv6 multicast
 message containing a multicast destination address in the IPv6
 header, but with a unicast destination address in the = link-layer
 header, withstanding all other validity considerations as
 specified in the relevant IPv6 standards = specifications.”

“An IPv6 sender node MAY choose to transmit an IPv6 multicast
 message as a link-layer unicast message.”

- Wes

On 7/31/10 1:54 AM, "Fred Baker" <fred@cisco.com> wrote:

This is to initiate a two week = working group last call of draft-gundavelli-v6ops-l2-unicast. Please read it = now. If you find nits (spelling errors, minor suggested wording changes, etc), = comment to the authors; if you find greater issues, such as disagreeing with a statement or finding additional issues that need to be addressed, please = post your comments to the combined lists.

We are looking specifically for comments on the importance of the document = as well as its content. If you have read the document and believe it to be of operational utility, that is also an important comment to make.

=

-------------------------= -------------------------------------------
IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
ipv6@ietf.org
Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/= mailman/listinfo/ipv6
--------------------------------------------------------------------

------_=_NextPart_001_01CB3280.DACA8985-- From v6ops-archive@ietf.org Mon Aug 2 17:01:34 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A85B53A6969 for ; Mon, 2 Aug 2010 17:01:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char AE hex): Subject: v6ops-archive@ietf.org Vicodin \256 Valium 70% 0FF\n X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -28.793 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-28.793 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, DRUGS_ANXIETY=0.01, DRUGS_PAIN=0.01, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, MANGLED_OFF=2.3, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, NO_RDNS_DOTCOM_HELO=0.001, RATWARE_MS_HASH=1.398, RATWARE_OUTLOOK_NONAME=2.171, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_NONE=0.1, SUBJECT_DRUG_GAP_VA=1.014, SUBJECT_NEEDS_ENCODING=0.001, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ebp7JxICdyLx for ; Mon, 2 Aug 2010 17:01:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailin-02.mx.aol.com (unknown [113.162.54.174]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 35B8D3A6873 for ; Mon, 2 Aug 2010 17:01:27 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <10db701cb32d9$bfc14ec0$ae36a271@Delft3d-Only> From: v6ops-archive@ietf.org To: v6ops-archive@ietf.org Subject: v6ops-archive@ietf.org Vicodin ® Valium 70% 0FF MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 17:01:27 -0700 (PDT) http://bzrmh.renownquart.ru?name=v6ops-archive@ietf.org sichern. Nur wer der Welt von sich aus gar nichts Wertvolles zu schenken vermag, aber zu tun versucht, als ob er ihr wei. Gott was geben wollte, wird alles wirklich schon Gegebene hassen und am liebsten verneinen oder gar vern From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Aug 3 07:00:43 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C70C3A6894 for ; Tue, 3 Aug 2010 07:00:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.308 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.308 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.813, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id enhZ7Yh6C98M for ; Tue, 3 Aug 2010 07:00:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BF233A67D1 for ; Tue, 3 Aug 2010 07:00:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OgHwY-0000yz-MX for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Tue, 03 Aug 2010 13:54:10 +0000 Received: from [64.102.122.148] (helo=rtp-iport-1.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OgHwV-0000yb-1w for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 03 Aug 2010 13:54:07 +0000 Authentication-Results: rtp-iport-1.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AvsEAJO8V0ytJV2a/2dsb2JhbACgCnGnZ5tShTkEhBeHKwsB X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.55,309,1278288000"; d="scan'208";a="142718418" Received: from rcdn-core-3.cisco.com ([173.37.93.154]) by rtp-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 03 Aug 2010 13:54:05 +0000 Received: from xbh-rcd-202.cisco.com (xbh-rcd-202.cisco.com [72.163.62.201]) by rcdn-core-3.cisco.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o73Ds5Ze003978; Tue, 3 Aug 2010 13:54:05 GMT Received: from xmb-rcd-114.cisco.com ([72.163.62.156]) by xbh-rcd-202.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Tue, 3 Aug 2010 08:54:05 -0500 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: draft-gundavelli-v6ops-l2-unicast WGLC Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 08:54:03 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <35EC7A29-8C16-4632-84C8-95988F49E92C@cisco.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: draft-gundavelli-v6ops-l2-unicast WGLC Thread-Index: Acsybfq0w7OBP1HeRKOhabbfWPDaNgAYDchQ References: <35EC7A29-8C16-4632-84C8-95988F49E92C@cisco.com> From: "Hemant Singh (shemant)" To: "Fred Baker (fred)" , "Wes Beebee (wbeebee)" Cc: "IPv6 Operations" , "6man Mailing List" , "Kurt Erik Lindqvist" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Aug 2010 13:54:05.0201 (UTC) FILETIME=[56182810:01CB3313] Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: Fred, Snipped from RFC 3810, section 7 is the following text. [For each interface over which the router operates the MLD protocol, the router must configure that interface to listen to all link-layer multicast addresses that can be generated by IPv6 multicasts. For example, an Ethernet-attached router must set its Ethernet address reception filter to accept all Ethernet multicast addresses that start with the hexadecimal value 3333 [RFC2464]; in the case of an Ethernet interface that does not support the filtering of such a multicast address range, it must be configured to accept ALL Ethernet multicast addresses, in order to meet the requirements of MLD.] =09 I can program such a L2 multicast filter in the CAM (Content Addressable Memory) of Ethernet hardware with CAM. So if this router directly receives a multicast message with multicast destination but unicast L2, the sniffing on 3333.xxxx.xxxx fails to capture this packet and the router just failed MLDv2 gleaning of this message. One may also note that MLD is used by ND as specified in RFC 4862 and RFC 4861. So what text do we add to the Sri document to exclude MLDv2 protocol from their proposal? =20 Hemant -----Original Message----- From: ipv6-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ipv6-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Fred Baker (fred) Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 2:09 PM To: Wes Beebee (wbeebee) Cc: IPv6 Operations; 6man Mailing List; Kurt Erik Lindqvist Subject: Re: draft-gundavelli-v6ops-l2-unicast WGLC Can you point us to the text in RFC 3810 that says "an IPv6 Receiver Node SHOULD drop..." and "...MAY NOT..."? The paragraphs in RFC 3810 that contain the word "unicast" read: o "source list" is an unordered list of zero or more unicast addresses from which multicast reception is desired or not desired, depending on the filter mode. An implementation MAY impose a limit on the size of source lists. When an operation causes the source list size limit to be exceeded, the service interface SHOULD return an error. The Source Address [i] fields are a vector of n unicast addresses, where n is the value in the Number of Sources (N) field. In MLDv2, General Queries are sent to the link-scope all-nodes multicast address (FF02::1). Multicast Address Specific and Multicast Address and Source Specific Queries are sent with an IP destination address equal to the multicast address of interest. *However*, a node MUST accept and process any Query whose IP Destination Address field contains *any* of the addresses (unicast or multicast) assigned to the interface on which the Query arrives. This might be useful, e.g., for debugging purposes. The Source Address [i] fields are a vector of n unicast addresses, where n is the value in this record's Number of Sources (N) field. Version 2 Multicast Listener Reports are sent with an IP destination address of FF02:0:0:0:0:0:0:16, to which all MLDv2-capable multicast routers listen (see section 11 for IANA considerations related to this special destination address). A node that operates in version 1 compatibility mode (see details in section 8) sends version 1 Reports to the multicast address specified in the Multicast Address field of the Report. In addition, a node MUST accept and process any version 1 Report whose IP Destination Address field contains *any* of the IPv6 addresses (unicast or multicast) assigned to the interface on which the Report arrives. This might be useful, e.g., for debugging purposes. What you are arguing is that a statement which is not made in the RFC is normative in the way you interpret it, and making a statement that disagrees with your preconception but disagrees with no statement actually made in the RFC is a protocol error. As I read it, RFC 3810 doesn't normally expect it (for obvious reasons) but doesn't preclude it. This memo commits the egregious sin of making the statement and specifying the cases in which it is argued to be appropriate. From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Aug 3 07:01:53 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F94F3A6937 for ; Tue, 3 Aug 2010 07:01:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -109.547 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-109.547 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.052, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, RDNS_NONE=0.1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MYBAnAxptGBQ for ; Tue, 3 Aug 2010 07:01:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA3653A68A7 for ; Tue, 3 Aug 2010 07:01:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OgI3i-0002Dg-M4 for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Tue, 03 Aug 2010 14:01:34 +0000 Received: from [64.102.122.148] (helo=rtp-iport-1.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OgI3f-0002Cy-8h for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 03 Aug 2010 14:01:31 +0000 Authentication-Results: rtp-iport-1.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.55,309,1278288000"; d="scan'208";a="142722667" Received: from rtp-core-2.cisco.com ([64.102.124.13]) by rtp-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 03 Aug 2010 14:01:30 +0000 Received: from Freds-Computer.local ([144.254.202.16]) by rtp-core-2.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o73E1MXs028292; Tue, 3 Aug 2010 14:01:24 GMT Received: from [127.0.0.1] by Freds-Computer.local (PGP Universal service); Tue, 03 Aug 2010 16:01:28 +0200 X-PGP-Universal: processed; by Freds-Computer.local on Tue, 03 Aug 2010 16:01:28 +0200 Subject: Re: draft-gundavelli-v6ops-l2-unicast WGLC Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1081) From: Fred Baker In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 16:01:14 +0200 Cc: "Wes Beebee (wbeebee)" , "IPv6 Operations" , "6man Mailing List" , "Kurt Erik Lindqvist" Message-Id: References: <35EC7A29-8C16-4632-84C8-95988F49E92C@cisco.com> To: "Hemant Singh (shemant)" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1081) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: Let me see if I understand you correctly. You would receive the L2 = Multicast because your CAM contains the address, but you would not = receive a message sent to the system's L2 unicast address. Why? Most = ethernet chips I'm aware of will happily store any message they receive = that is directed to their configured unicast address... On Aug 3, 2010, at 3:54 PM, Hemant Singh (shemant) wrote: > Fred, >=20 > Snipped from RFC 3810, section 7 is the following text. >=20 > [For each interface over which the router operates the MLD protocol, = the > router must configure that interface to listen to all link-layer > multicast addresses that can be generated by IPv6 multicasts. For > example, an Ethernet-attached router must set its Ethernet address > reception filter to accept all Ethernet multicast addresses that start > with the hexadecimal value 3333 [RFC2464]; in the case of an Ethernet > interface that does not support the filtering of such a multicast > address range, it must be configured to accept ALL Ethernet multicast > addresses, in order to meet the requirements of MLD.] > =09 > I can program such a L2 multicast filter in the CAM (Content = Addressable > Memory) of Ethernet hardware with CAM. So if this router directly > receives a multicast message with multicast destination but unicast = L2, > the sniffing on 3333.xxxx.xxxx fails to capture this packet and the > router just failed MLDv2 gleaning of this message. One may also note > that MLD is used by ND as specified in RFC 4862 and RFC 4861. >=20 > So what text do we add to the Sri document to exclude MLDv2 protocol > from their proposal? =20 >=20 > Hemant >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: ipv6-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ipv6-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf = Of > Fred Baker (fred) > Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 2:09 PM > To: Wes Beebee (wbeebee) > Cc: IPv6 Operations; 6man Mailing List; Kurt Erik Lindqvist > Subject: Re: draft-gundavelli-v6ops-l2-unicast WGLC >=20 > Can you point us to the text in RFC 3810 that says "an IPv6 Receiver > Node SHOULD drop..." and "...MAY NOT..."? >=20 > The paragraphs in RFC 3810 that contain the word "unicast" read: >=20 > o "source list" is an unordered list of zero or more unicast > addresses from which multicast reception is desired or not > desired, depending on the filter mode. An implementation MAY > impose a limit on the size of source lists. When an operation > causes the source list size limit to be exceeded, the service > interface SHOULD return an error. >=20 > The Source Address [i] fields are a vector of n unicast addresses, > where n is the value in the Number of Sources (N) field. >=20 > In MLDv2, General Queries are sent to the link-scope all-nodes > multicast address (FF02::1). Multicast Address Specific and > Multicast Address and Source Specific Queries are sent with an IP > destination address equal to the multicast address of interest. > *However*, a node MUST accept and process any Query whose IP > Destination Address field contains *any* of the addresses (unicast = or > multicast) assigned to the interface on which the Query arrives. = This > might be useful, e.g., for debugging purposes. >=20 > The Source Address [i] fields are a vector of n unicast addresses, > where n is the value in this record's Number of Sources (N) field. >=20 > Version 2 Multicast Listener Reports are sent with an IP destination > address of FF02:0:0:0:0:0:0:16, to which all MLDv2-capable multicast > routers listen (see section 11 for IANA considerations related to > this special destination address). A node that operates in version = 1 > compatibility mode (see details in section 8) sends version 1 = Reports > to the multicast address specified in the Multicast Address field of > the Report. In addition, a node MUST accept and process any version > 1 Report whose IP Destination Address field contains *any* of the > IPv6 addresses (unicast or multicast) assigned to the interface on > which the Report arrives. This might be useful, e.g., for debugging > purposes. >=20 > What you are arguing is that a statement which is not made in the RFC = is > normative in the way you interpret it, and making a statement that > disagrees with your preconception but disagrees with no statement > actually made in the RFC is a protocol error. As I read it, RFC 3810 > doesn't normally expect it (for obvious reasons) but doesn't preclude > it. This memo commits the egregious sin of making the statement and > specifying the cases in which it is argued to be appropriate. http://www.ipinc.net/IPv4.GIF From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Aug 3 14:16:07 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34FC33A6B1D for ; Tue, 3 Aug 2010 14:16:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.661 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.661 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-2.141, BAYES_50=0.001, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, J_CHICKENPOX_32=0.6, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ctF0vZ3I0sma for ; Tue, 3 Aug 2010 14:16:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 494803A6B1C for ; Tue, 3 Aug 2010 14:16:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OgOlZ-000Cmv-Ro for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Tue, 03 Aug 2010 21:11:17 +0000 Received: from [93.17.128.19] (helo=smtp23.services.sfr.fr) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OgOlX-000CmV-D5 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 03 Aug 2010 21:11:15 +0000 Received: from filter.sfr.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by msfrf2303.sfr.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 92EFE700008B; Tue, 3 Aug 2010 23:11:13 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.0.20] (per92-10-88-166-221-144.fbx.proxad.net [88.166.221.144]) by msfrf2303.sfr.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id C718B7000087; Tue, 3 Aug 2010 23:11:10 +0200 (CEST) X-SFR-UUID: 20100803211110815.C718B7000087@msfrf2303.sfr.fr Subject: Avoiding the terminology confusion with NAT66 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1081) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?R=E9mi_Despr=E9s?= In-Reply-To: <055d01cb334d$65f478d0$31dd6a70$@com> Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 23:11:08 +0200 Cc: IPv6 v6ops , Behave WG Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <47295AD4-7F50-4751-A9EC-45D48D928CD7@free.fr> References: <4FAA72A8-6223-4956-9CB1-D3DB4E555209@cisco.com> <4C577BF2.9000807@gmail.com> <148F4D91-A203-4660-B2D1-59808D86A876@cisco.com> <3D4F97DE-E523-4206-BB87-61281C4A73B4@apnic.net> <040401cb332e$2f5ce380$8e16aa80$@com> <86F21EF8-9C98-4C2A-BAF5-29F4AD6D1426@free.fr> <055d01cb334d$65f478d0$31dd6a70$@com> To: "Dan Wing" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1081) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: Le 3 ao=FBt 2010 =E0 22:49, Dan Wing a =E9crit : ... >>> If the industry (IETF and the press and authors of books) are going >> to >>> overload the meaning of NAT66 to include Port Address Translation, = it >>> will have the same negative effect as the overloaded NAT(44) name. >>=20 >> In my understanding, this overloading is already here, and is >> unavoidable. >> It is downloading a natural and popular meaning that is IMHO a = mistake. >=20 > If so, I encourage Margaret and Fred to not use NAT66 for their=20 > specification. Rather, "IPv6 Prefix Rewriting". "6pr" almost rolls = off > the tongue. +1 for this new name Other names could do it too, e.g. PT66 for prefix translation, or SPT = for Stateless Prefix Translation, whatever Margaret and:or the majority = would prefer, provided it isn't NAT66. Regards, RD From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Aug 3 14:45:03 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FFE43A6ADF for ; Tue, 3 Aug 2010 14:45:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.976 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.976 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.277, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_32=0.6, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Gel7ZVA+jElR for ; Tue, 3 Aug 2010 14:45:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6A863A6768 for ; Tue, 3 Aug 2010 14:45:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OgPGn-000GJQ-CF for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Tue, 03 Aug 2010 21:43:33 +0000 Received: from [2001:418:1::40] (helo=ran.psg.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OgPGk-000GJ4-W0 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 03 Aug 2010 21:43:30 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=rmac.psg.com.psg.com) by ran.psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OgPGh-000KtQ-Ql; Tue, 03 Aug 2010 21:43:29 +0000 Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2010 23:43:25 +0200 Message-ID: From: Randy Bush To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?R=E9mi_Despr=E9s?= Cc: "Dan Wing" , IPv6 v6ops , Behave WG Subject: Re: Avoiding the terminology confusion with NAT66 In-Reply-To: <47295AD4-7F50-4751-A9EC-45D48D928CD7@free.fr> References: <4FAA72A8-6223-4956-9CB1-D3DB4E555209@cisco.com> <4C577BF2.9000807@gmail.com> <148F4D91-A203-4660-B2D1-59808D86A876@cisco.com> <3D4F97DE-E523-4206-BB87-61281C4A73B4@apnic.net> <040401cb332e$2f5ce380$8e16aa80$@com> <86F21EF8-9C98-4C2A-BAF5-29F4AD6D1426@free.fr> <055d01cb334d$65f478d0$31dd6a70$@com> <47295AD4-7F50-4751-A9EC-45D48D928CD7@free.fr> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 (Almost Unreal) Emacs/22.3 Mule/5.0 (SAKAKI) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI 1.14.6 - "Maruoka") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: >> If so, I encourage Margaret and Fred to not use NAT66 for their >> specification. Rather, "IPv6 Prefix Rewriting". "6pr" almost rolls >> off the tongue. > Other names could do it too, e.g. PT66 for prefix translation, or SPT > for Stateless Prefix Translation, whatever Margaret and:or the > majority would prefer, provided it isn't NAT66. since we're into deceptive marketing, why not call it chocolate ice cream? randy From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Wed Aug 4 04:58:02 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69C763A6B01 for ; Wed, 4 Aug 2010 04:58:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vvX-IM2jdzq0 for ; Wed, 4 Aug 2010 04:58:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D4513A68DA for ; Wed, 4 Aug 2010 04:58:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OgcX2-000HsT-4V for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Wed, 04 Aug 2010 11:53:12 +0000 Received: from [2001:700:1:2:158:38:152:126] (helo=ufisa.uninett.no) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OgcX0-000Hrt-0o for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 04 Aug 2010 11:53:10 +0000 Received: from [192.168.1.174] (140.94-201-80.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be [80.201.94.140]) by ufisa.uninett.no (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 52E278299; Wed, 4 Aug 2010 13:53:08 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <4C5954A4.7040402@venaas.com> Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2010 04:53:08 -0700 From: Stig Venaas User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.24 (Windows/20100228) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Fred Baker CC: IPv6 Operations , 6man Mailing List , Kurt Erik Lindqvist Subject: Re: draft-gundavelli-v6ops-l2-unicast WGLC References: <392017B9-C173-4A53-99E7-6FFF8BB24FEB@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <392017B9-C173-4A53-99E7-6FFF8BB24FEB@cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: I think this is a good document, and that it is ready, Stig From kieboso5543@comcast.net Wed Aug 4 18:47:33 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB68A3A67E5 for ; Wed, 4 Aug 2010 18:47:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -25.741 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-25.741 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_SBL=20, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MIzuTrMjpbUv for ; Wed, 4 Aug 2010 18:47:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from comcast.net (c-98-238-167-104.hsd1.ca.comcast.net [98.238.167.104]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CEA633A6784 for ; Wed, 4 Aug 2010 18:47:32 -0700 (PDT) From: To: v6ops-archive@ietf.org Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2010 18:48:05 -0700 Subject: Chicas Caliente aqui. Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-Id: <20100805014732.CEA633A6784@core3.amsl.com> Pull her skirt down and take her right there http://www.windowpoet.ru/ From rsvp-archiven@lists.ietf.org Thu Aug 5 00:15:26 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CFCF3A69FA for ; Thu, 5 Aug 2010 00:15:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.568 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.568 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_95=3, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, GB_PHARMACY=1, HELO_DYNAMIC_HCC=4.295, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2=4.395, HELO_DYNAMIC_SPLIT_IP=3.493, HELO_EQ_BR=0.955, HELO_EQ_DSL=1.129, HELO_EQ_DYNAMIC=1.144, HELO_EQ_IP_ADDR=1.119, HOST_EQ_BR=1.295, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RCVD_NUMERIC_HELO=2.067, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.931, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_RHS_DOB=1.083, URIBL_SC_SURBL=10, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Nue5-vIhlalj for ; Thu, 5 Aug 2010 00:15:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 189.27.168.202.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br (189.27.168.202.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br [189.27.168.202]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id EF14B3A6781 for ; Thu, 5 Aug 2010 00:15:17 -0700 (PDT) From: v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org To: v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org, Want better manhood's parameters? 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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Aug 5 14:46:20 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07B0C3A6B56 for ; Thu, 5 Aug 2010 14:46:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.22 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.22 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.325, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, J_CHICKENPOX_32=0.6, RDNS_NONE=0.1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JIr2KrHw3NIr for ; Thu, 5 Aug 2010 14:46:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8EED43A68D5 for ; Thu, 5 Aug 2010 14:46:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Oh8BH-000MFJ-8w for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Thu, 05 Aug 2010 21:40:51 +0000 Received: from [209.85.212.180] (helo=mail-px0-f180.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Oh8BC-000MEm-31 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 05 Aug 2010 21:40:46 +0000 Received: by pxi3 with SMTP id 3so4189126pxi.11 for ; Thu, 05 Aug 2010 14:40:43 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:subject:mime-version :content-type:from:in-reply-to:date:cc:content-transfer-encoding :message-id:references:to:x-mailer; bh=iyKXCkPBvVNqevzPGRDXkYK4KvGKfSMMfBMbr8hMuIw=; b=b9e+52GU7q1T/7gWwGdt2G/WifEX8uMorBHC/Ib2OVQmlVfI/BcrkUlJShc7YnvxAl MpVyJ2PBPbnmNM3tnpd5HffDv3i7KmXgFmdRIT1RDY6q8dem36uYY2E/rRwDoZqTRHOb H/WPDZf3xDo0Oz+79uN32W1KB1yPPpTiNgB84= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=subject:mime-version:content-type:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to:x-mailer; b=vOuVUVjkbWZgMKH0GecBKXLFPNeJ4qx6M0HV1Ekg2zotTg3bpe/PGoEsxkt2d6SxfO wiHyrL/HRNUi1zwb6RmSjO5Mc8cvcawHcJmWG0yeEsr6dU/7PAuq7hJcqWISI9tXRrGM vLi4V901s+VI1KL4NAtX7IxkSLTnMDjYLhdwE= Received: by 10.142.199.20 with SMTP id w20mr9579366wff.290.1281044443606; Thu, 05 Aug 2010 14:40:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dhcp-209.97.124.227.us.checkpoint.com ([209.97.124.227]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id w8sm608054wfd.7.2010.08.05.14.40.40 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Thu, 05 Aug 2010 14:40:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: Avoiding the terminology confusion with NAT66 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1081) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Bob Hinden In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2010 14:40:38 -0700 Cc: Bob Hinden , =?iso-8859-1?Q?R=E9mi_Despr=E9s?= , "Dan Wing" , IPv6 v6ops , Behave WG Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <4FAA72A8-6223-4956-9CB1-D3DB4E555209@cisco.com> <4C577BF2.9000807@gmail.com> <148F4D91-A203-4660-B2D1-59808D86A876@cisco.com> <3D4F97DE-E523-4206-BB87-61281C4A73B4@apnic.net> <040401cb332e$2f5ce380$8e16aa80$@com> <86F21EF8-9C98-4C2A-BAF5-29F4AD6D1426@free.fr> <055d01cb334d$65f478d0$31dd6a70$@com> <47295AD4-7F50-4751-A9EC-45D48D928CD7@free.fr> To: Randy Bush X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1081) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: Randy, On Aug 3, 2010, at 2:43 PM, Randy Bush wrote: >>> If so, I encourage Margaret and Fred to not use NAT66 for their >>> specification. Rather, "IPv6 Prefix Rewriting". "6pr" almost rolls >>> off the tongue. >> Other names could do it too, e.g. PT66 for prefix translation, or SPT >> for Stateless Prefix Translation, whatever Margaret and:or the >> majority would prefer, provided it isn't NAT66. >=20 > since we're into deceptive marketing, why not call it chocolate ice > cream? I think it's the other way around. To use your example, NAT66 is a name = many people are using to describe all flavors of ice cream. Margaret's = draft is a particular flavor of ice cream. It would be better to call = it chocolate ice cream :-) Bob From on@120babes.com Thu Aug 5 17:35:11 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6CF803A69E1 for ; Thu, 5 Aug 2010 17:35:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -12.338 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-12.338 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_95=3, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, GB_PHARMACY=1, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_NONE=0.1, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_OB_SURBL=10, URIBL_RHS_DOB=1.083, URIBL_SC_SURBL=10, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rzOGhikKYQ5h for ; Thu, 5 Aug 2010 17:35:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aglaze.com (unknown [61.19.65.53]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 70E703A6ABC for ; Thu, 5 Aug 2010 17:34:55 -0700 (PDT) From: v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org To: v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org, Lowered prices on libido-pilules MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20100806003503.70E703A6ABC@core3.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2010 17:34:55 -0700 (PDT)
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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Aug 5 17:55:08 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE6283A69E1 for ; Thu, 5 Aug 2010 17:55:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.458 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.458 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.141, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8iAKMhPJxW1Z for ; Thu, 5 Aug 2010 17:55:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F312F3A6887 for ; Thu, 5 Aug 2010 17:55:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OhB56-000KDZ-1c for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Fri, 06 Aug 2010 00:46:40 +0000 Received: from [2001:418:1::40] (helo=ran.psg.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OhB4z-000KCB-Fk for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 06 Aug 2010 00:46:33 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=rmac.psg.com.psg.com) by ran.psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OhB4t-0006lb-DE; Fri, 06 Aug 2010 00:46:27 +0000 Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2010 17:46:26 -0700 Message-ID: From: Randy Bush To: Bob Hinden Cc: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?R=E9mi_Despr=E9s?= , "Dan Wing" , IPv6 v6ops , Behave WG Subject: Re: Avoiding the terminology confusion with NAT66 In-Reply-To: References: <4FAA72A8-6223-4956-9CB1-D3DB4E555209@cisco.com> <4C577BF2.9000807@gmail.com> <148F4D91-A203-4660-B2D1-59808D86A876@cisco.com> <3D4F97DE-E523-4206-BB87-61281C4A73B4@apnic.net> <040401cb332e$2f5ce380$8e16aa80$@com> <86F21EF8-9C98-4C2A-BAF5-29F4AD6D1426@free.fr> <055d01cb334d$65f478d0$31dd6a70$@com> <47295AD4-7F50-4751-A9EC-45D48D928CD7@free.fr> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 (Almost Unreal) Emacs/22.3 Mule/5.0 (SAKAKI) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI 1.14.6 - "Maruoka") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: > I think it's the other way around. To use your example, NAT66 is a > name many people are using to describe all flavors of ice cream. > Margaret's draft is a particular flavor of ice cream. It would be > better to call it chocolate ice cream :-) if it translates addresses, that is sufficiently significant that NAT should be in the name. so chocoNAT is fine with me. or maybe cocoNAT randy From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Aug 5 18:41:33 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8231F3A6835 for ; Thu, 5 Aug 2010 18:41:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.547 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.547 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.052, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 81EJ00EFeutQ for ; Thu, 5 Aug 2010 18:41:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 846223A66B4 for ; Thu, 5 Aug 2010 18:41:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OhBue-0001N3-G8 for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Fri, 06 Aug 2010 01:39:56 +0000 Received: from [209.85.216.180] (helo=mail-qy0-f180.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OhBub-0001MX-Lr for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 06 Aug 2010 01:39:53 +0000 Received: by qyk31 with SMTP id 31so4473918qyk.11 for ; Thu, 05 Aug 2010 18:39:52 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:received:in-reply-to :references:date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=w1ZkoiXaCqMqliLISiryEUUxD5gJzGOPQlXqRgbe81c=; b=sqRPSomnt1SKG4eCNtmNPnZYezGryr6E/qO1A2BlesmnC1f16vDvbxsI4fogDpVr+f PL2KxKPi/YR5dVi1gFvdVxutMUxLaW430VK/6cVmTWLHdL18+h+6rBSoEOcFV1R9kI3j ELx5rZHILqUVivJurQIxG25IGd42aOYKVnbME= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=KUv5n0Z2LmBvih++RZDzPs04W8PC5bi6wgcOX88D8jGqvppd0KwjzqKXXD0I0bh1un fCTcTBPQT1T2Rh5Xz6ICOFUQ/+WR750OcatOs7kwe44PtnibowiFoJqnnzqj0ZAdvy+2 Bbm7tsKuumpFY/tlBSXWaZ680dlK8U4kbtBtU= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.224.18.22 with SMTP id u22mr5697220qaa.18.1281058792772; Thu, 05 Aug 2010 18:39:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.229.26.132 with HTTP; Thu, 5 Aug 2010 18:39:52 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <4FAA72A8-6223-4956-9CB1-D3DB4E555209@cisco.com> <4C577BF2.9000807@gmail.com> <148F4D91-A203-4660-B2D1-59808D86A876@cisco.com> <3D4F97DE-E523-4206-BB87-61281C4A73B4@apnic.net> <040401cb332e$2f5ce380$8e16aa80$@com> <86F21EF8-9C98-4C2A-BAF5-29F4AD6D1426@free.fr> <055d01cb334d$65f478d0$31dd6a70$@com> <47295AD4-7F50-4751-A9EC-45D48D928CD7@free.fr> Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2010 18:39:52 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Avoiding the terminology confusion with NAT66 From: Bob Hinden To: Randy Bush Cc: =?ISO-8859-1?B?UultaSBEZXNwculz?= , Dan Wing , IPv6 v6ops , Behave WG Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: On Thu, Aug 5, 2010 at 5:46 PM, Randy Bush wrote: >> I think it's the other way around. =A0To use your example, NAT66 is a >> name many people are using to describe all flavors of ice cream. >> Margaret's draft is a particular flavor of ice cream. =A0It would be >> better to call it chocolate ice cream :-) > > if it translates addresses, that is sufficiently significant that NAT > should be in the name. =A0so chocoNAT is fine with me. =A0or maybe cocoNA= T > How about pomegraNATe :-) Bob From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Aug 6 09:04:30 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B72D3A67B3 for ; Fri, 6 Aug 2010 09:04:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.814 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.814 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.143, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_EQ_AU=0.377, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GGrSPlgN3B8B for ; Fri, 6 Aug 2010 09:04:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38A623A679F for ; Fri, 6 Aug 2010 09:04:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OhPJN-0002PD-DD for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Fri, 06 Aug 2010 15:58:21 +0000 Received: from [202.136.110.251] (helo=smtp2.adam.net.au) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OhPJK-0002OX-DT; Fri, 06 Aug 2010 15:58:18 +0000 Received: from 182-239-166-126.ip.adam.com.au ([182.239.166.126] helo=opy.nosense.org) by smtp2.adam.net.au with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1OhPJ6-0002Bl-VG; Sat, 07 Aug 2010 01:28:05 +0930 Received: from opy.nosense.org (localhost.localdomain [IPv6:::1]) by opy.nosense.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD6513B325; Sat, 7 Aug 2010 01:28:05 +0930 (CST) Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2010 01:28:05 +0930 From: Mark Smith To: Bob Hinden Cc: Randy Bush , =?UTF-8?B?UsOpbWkgRGVzcHLDqXM=?= , Dan Wing , IPv6 v6ops , Behave WG Subject: Re: Avoiding the terminology confusion with NAT66 Message-ID: <20100807012805.001b574d@opy.nosense.org> In-Reply-To: References: <4FAA72A8-6223-4956-9CB1-D3DB4E555209@cisco.com> <4C577BF2.9000807@gmail.com> <148F4D91-A203-4660-B2D1-59808D86A876@cisco.com> <3D4F97DE-E523-4206-BB87-61281C4A73B4@apnic.net> <040401cb332e$2f5ce380$8e16aa80$@com> <86F21EF8-9C98-4C2A-BAF5-29F4AD6D1426@free.fr> <055d01cb334d$65f478d0$31dd6a70$@com> <47295AD4-7F50-4751-A9EC-45D48D928CD7@free.fr> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.7.6 (GTK+ 2.20.1; x86_64-unknown-linux-gnu) X-Location: Lower Mitcham, South Australia, 5062 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: On Thu, 5 Aug 2010 18:39:52 -0700 Bob Hinden wrote: > On Thu, Aug 5, 2010 at 5:46 PM, Randy Bush wrote: > >> I think it's the other way around. =C2=A0To use your example, NAT66 is= a > >> name many people are using to describe all flavors of ice cream. > >> Margaret's draft is a particular flavor of ice cream. =C2=A0It would be > >> better to call it chocolate ice cream :-) > > > > if it translates addresses, that is sufficiently significant that NAT > > should be in the name. =C2=A0so chocoNAT is fine with me. =C2=A0or mayb= e cocoNAT > > >=20 > How about pomegraNATe :-) >=20 DefiNATely! > Bob >=20 From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Aug 6 11:35:19 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16E953A69F9 for ; Fri, 6 Aug 2010 11:35:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -104.618 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-104.618 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.123, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id C2JCQ056Y6tU for ; Fri, 6 Aug 2010 11:35:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 507FE3A6A29 for ; Fri, 6 Aug 2010 11:35:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OhRhj-0001V5-Fq for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Fri, 06 Aug 2010 18:31:39 +0000 Received: from [17.254.13.22] (helo=mail-out3.apple.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OhRhd-0001UC-IF for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 06 Aug 2010 18:31:33 +0000 Received: from relay13.apple.com (relay13.apple.com [17.128.113.29]) by mail-out3.apple.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB347A1E26C1; Fri, 6 Aug 2010 11:31:32 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: 1180711d-b7c37ae0000027a8-e7-4c5c5504ca58 Received: from il0602b-dhcp167.apple.com (il0602b-dhcp167.apple.com [17.206.24.167]) (using TLS with cipher AES128-SHA (AES128-SHA/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by relay13.apple.com (Apple SCV relay) with SMTP id 46.32.10152.4055C5C4; Fri, 6 Aug 2010 11:31:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: draft-ietf-v6ops-cpe-simple-security-12.txt feedback Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1081) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: james woodyatt In-Reply-To: <20100728080009.GZ26000@cisco.com> Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2010 11:31:32 -0700 Cc: IPv6 Operations , mboned@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <99D85A94-0DDF-4950-8151-035024CE8105@apple.com> References: <20100728072319.GU26000@cisco.com> <430696D0-EA0E-438A-B46F-D6DCD00652E0@apple.com> <20100728080009.GZ26000@cisco.com> To: Toerless Eckert X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1081) X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAQAAAZE= Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: On Jul 28, 2010, at 01:00, Toerless Eckert wrote: >=20 > Not quite sure what you mean. I would like application meant to be = written > for home/SMB networks to be written to use at most site-local IPv6 = multicast > group address scopes. That's not in the ambit of the draft. The draft recommends a DEFAULT multicast scope boundary of = organization-local because we think it will be very rare for a = subscriber and their service provider to be separate sites within the = *same* organization, and moreover, we do not think that the DEFAULT = should be set so that subscribers are all expected to be within the same = organization unless they actively take steps to separate themselves by = reconfiguring the multicast scope boundary. Setting the DEFAULT multicast scope boundary to site-local, instead of = organization-local, would be profoundly wrong-headed. I would object = vigorously to making the change to the draft you propose. > When such an application is then put into an > enterprise network it is most likely to work comparably because it = will > be constrained to a site of the enterprise, like an office, which = although > usually larger in size than todays home networks, will still be = sufficiently > small in size to make ASM application fairly well workable. I get that you're worried about application developers who are unsure = what multicast scope to use, and who might see this document and = mistakenly think, "Hey! I better use organization-local scope so I get = the widest distribution possible in home networks without extending = beyond residential gateway." But those application developers are A) = mistaken, B) not our problem, and C) unsolvable. Any developer who uses organization-local multicast scope when they = really mean to use site-local, or vice-versa, is just plain wrong. If a = routed internetwork at a residential subscriber contains site-local = multicast scope boundaries, then we must assume the subscriber put them = there for a reason. We also have to expect that developers who are = careless about choosing the right multicast scope will be corrected by = other mechanisms than the functions of IPv6 CPE Simple Security. > I am not sure where the expectation was raised that application for > home networks/SMB should default to Organizational-Local scope. I don't know where you acquired that expectation either. It's certainly = not in the draft. -- james woodyatt member of technical staff, communications engineering From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Aug 6 11:50:40 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66C663A6823 for ; Fri, 6 Aug 2010 11:50:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -104.887 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-104.887 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.391, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gcrAB5MvcJvb for ; Fri, 6 Aug 2010 11:50:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61BB63A6912 for ; Fri, 6 Aug 2010 11:50:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OhRyl-00048Y-JA for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Fri, 06 Aug 2010 18:49:15 +0000 Received: from [17.254.13.23] (helo=mail-out4.apple.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OhRyh-00047C-9m for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 06 Aug 2010 18:49:11 +0000 Received: from relay15.apple.com (relay15.apple.com [17.128.113.54]) by mail-out4.apple.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1285A7A2F20; Fri, 6 Aug 2010 11:49:10 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: 11807136-b7cc9ae000004162-32-4c5c592694f9 Received: from il0602b-dhcp167.apple.com (il0602b-dhcp167.apple.com [17.206.24.167]) (using TLS with cipher AES128-SHA (AES128-SHA/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by relay15.apple.com (Apple SCV relay) with SMTP id 91.31.16738.6295C5C4; Fri, 6 Aug 2010 11:49:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [MBONED] draft-ietf-v6ops-cpe-simple-security-12.txt feedback Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1081) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: james woodyatt In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2010 11:49:10 -0700 Cc: Toerless Eckert , Fred Baker , IPv6 Operations , mboned@ietf.org, IESG IESG , Ron Bonica Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <6C258865-5A0A-4641-8434-6A66A50DB1E3@apple.com> References: <20100728072319.GU26000@cisco.com> <99F32949-6BAC-472B-B535-F6298D55DC3F@cisco.com> <20100728075127.GY26000@cisco.com> <6CCA639A-C23C-4942-BDBA-130E27BE04E0@ecs.soton.ac.uk> To: Tim Chown X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1081) X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAQAAAZE= Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: On Jul 28, 2010, at 06:31, Tim Chown wrote: > I agree that 3.1 REC-2 should say site-local scope is the default for = the context of this draft (CPE devices in homes and small offices). See my previous message on this topic for my response to that proposal. > The provider would most likely use organisation-local to scope = multicast within its whole network. As well they should do so for their private use, c.f. RFC 2365. Setting the DEFAULT multicast scope boundary at site-local would extend = service provider private multicast beyond demarcations into their = subscriber networks. For that reason, service providers will certainly = expect to use organization-local zone boundary edge routers for the same = reason we recommend that residential gateways be organization-local zone = boundary routers. The first-mile link is an organizational zone boundary. I don't = understand why this is a point of such confusion. Or do we really not = like the idea that subscribers are separate organizations from their = service providers? "We are the Internet company. All your base are = belong to us!" -- james woodyatt member of technical staff, communications engineering From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Aug 6 11:59:12 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9ACB3A69D6 for ; Fri, 6 Aug 2010 11:59:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -109.245 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-109.245 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.750, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, RDNS_NONE=0.1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OQTrkNBEZvjr for ; Fri, 6 Aug 2010 11:59:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02FC23A68A7 for ; Fri, 6 Aug 2010 11:59:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OhS7z-0005oJ-1G for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Fri, 06 Aug 2010 18:58:47 +0000 Received: from [64.102.122.149] (helo=rtp-iport-2.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OhS7w-0005ns-34 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 06 Aug 2010 18:58:44 +0000 Authentication-Results: rtp-iport-2.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.55,330,1278288000"; d="scan'208";a="144506101" Received: from rtp-core-1.cisco.com ([64.102.124.12]) by rtp-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 06 Aug 2010 18:58:42 +0000 Received: from Freds-Computer.local (dhcp-10-55-92-5.cisco.com [10.55.92.5]) by rtp-core-1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o76IwXmR016209; Fri, 6 Aug 2010 18:58:36 GMT Received: from [127.0.0.1] by Freds-Computer.local (PGP Universal service); Fri, 06 Aug 2010 20:58:42 +0200 X-PGP-Universal: processed; by Freds-Computer.local on Fri, 06 Aug 2010 20:58:42 +0200 Subject: Re: draft-ietf-v6ops-cpe-simple-security-12.txt feedback Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1081) From: Fred Baker In-Reply-To: <99D85A94-0DDF-4950-8151-035024CE8105@apple.com> Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2010 20:58:27 +0200 Cc: IPv6 Operations , mboned@ietf.org Message-Id: <0D448E93-070E-478D-911F-60606DFE3441@cisco.com> References: <20100728072319.GU26000@cisco.com> <430696D0-EA0E-438A-B46F-D6DCD00652E0@apple.com> <20100728080009.GZ26000@cisco.com> <99D85A94-0DDF-4950-8151-035024CE8105@apple.com> To: james woodyatt , Toerless Eckert X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1081) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: On Aug 6, 2010, at 8:31 PM, james woodyatt wrote: > On Jul 28, 2010, at 01:00, Toerless Eckert wrote: >>=20 >> Not quite sure what you mean. I would like application meant to be = written >> for home/SMB networks to be written to use at most site-local IPv6 = multicast >> group address scopes. >=20 > That's not in the ambit of the draft. >=20 > The draft recommends a DEFAULT multicast scope boundary of = organization-local because we think it will be very rare for a = subscriber and their service provider to be separate sites within the = *same* organization, and moreover, we do not think that the DEFAULT = should be set so that subscribers are all expected to be within the same = organization unless they actively take steps to separate themselves by = reconfiguring the multicast scope boundary. >=20 > Setting the DEFAULT multicast scope boundary to site-local, instead of = organization-local, would be profoundly wrong-headed. I would object = vigorously to making the change to the draft you propose. Dumb question, chair hat off... In the absence of a deployed multicast routing protocol, I would be = surprised at the use use of anything beyond link-local multicast. We = don't have an algorithm that will correctly route a multicast in a wider = scope (eg, deliver exactly once barring random loss), and we don't have = an algorithm besides route filtering in a routing protocol that will = contain a multi-subnet multicast within any specific boundary. As a result, in a SMB/SOHO/Residential environment and for that matter = any environment, I would expect multicasts to be *link-local* in scope = apart from configuration - at minimum configuration of a multicast = routing protocol and appropriate route filters. Why are site-local or organization-local even on the table?= From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Aug 6 12:44:08 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 722D53A6807 for ; Fri, 6 Aug 2010 12:44:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_37=0.6, NO_RELAYS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fXEQ26hqfQrU for ; Fri, 6 Aug 2010 12:44:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D57B3A6937 for ; Fri, 6 Aug 2010 12:44:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OhSmA-000EZ5-49 for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Fri, 06 Aug 2010 19:40:18 +0000 Received: from [2001:620:0:14::29] (helo=caval.switch.ch) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OhSm7-000EYF-Gc; Fri, 06 Aug 2010 19:40:15 +0000 Received: from [2001:620:0:4:226:8ff:fe05:cfee] (helo=macsl.switch.ch) by caval.switch.ch with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OhSm1-0003x3-HJ; Fri, 06 Aug 2010 21:40:09 +0200 From: Simon Leinen To: Bob Hinden Cc: Randy Bush , =?utf-8?B?UsOpbWkgRGVzcHLDqXM=?= , Dan Wing , IPv6 v6ops , Behave WG Subject: Re: Avoiding the terminology confusion with NAT66 In-Reply-To: (Bob Hinden's message of "Thu, 5 Aug 2010 18:39:52 -0700") References: <4FAA72A8-6223-4956-9CB1-D3DB4E555209@cisco.com> <4C577BF2.9000807@gmail.com> <148F4D91-A203-4660-B2D1-59808D86A876@cisco.com> <3D4F97DE-E523-4206-BB87-61281C4A73B4@apnic.net> <040401cb332e$2f5ce380$8e16aa80$@com> <86F21EF8-9C98-4C2A-BAF5-29F4AD6D1426@free.fr> <055d01cb334d$65f478d0$31dd6a70$@com> <47295AD4-7F50-4751-A9EC-45D48D928CD7@free.fr> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.2 (darwin) X-Face: 1Nk*r=:$IBBb8|TyRB'2WSY6u:BzMO7N)#id#-4_}MsU5?vTI?dez|JiutW4sKBLjp.l7,F 7QOld^hORRtpCUj)!cP]gtK_SyK5FW(+o"!or:v^C^]OxX^3+IPd\z,@ttmwYVO7l`6OXXYR` Date: Fri, 06 Aug 2010 21:40:08 +0200 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-SWITCH-SCANNER: bypassed Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: > How about pomegraNATe :-) As in "Prefix-Only Modification for Enhanced Guidance, which Ran^Hdicals Accuse of Nasty Address-Torturing Evilness"? -- Simon. From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Aug 6 13:21:43 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A31B3A67D4 for ; Fri, 6 Aug 2010 13:21:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -104.94 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-104.94 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.445, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pKldg0L6yznW for ; Fri, 6 Aug 2010 13:21:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60A793A657C for ; Fri, 6 Aug 2010 13:21:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OhTOh-000LRo-8e for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Fri, 06 Aug 2010 20:20:07 +0000 Received: from [17.254.13.22] (helo=mail-out3.apple.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OhTOe-000LQe-Mc for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 06 Aug 2010 20:20:04 +0000 Received: from relay15.apple.com (relay15.apple.com [17.128.113.54]) by mail-out3.apple.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56E90A1E726E; Fri, 6 Aug 2010 13:20:04 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: 11807136-b7cc9ae000004162-8b-4c5c6e7467f2 Received: from il0602b-dhcp167.apple.com (il0602b-dhcp167.apple.com [17.206.24.167]) (using TLS with cipher AES128-SHA (AES128-SHA/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by relay15.apple.com (Apple SCV relay) with SMTP id 9D.4A.16738.47E6C5C4; Fri, 6 Aug 2010 13:20:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: draft-ietf-v6ops-cpe-simple-security-12.txt feedback Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1081) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: james woodyatt In-Reply-To: <0D448E93-070E-478D-911F-60606DFE3441@cisco.com> Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2010 13:20:03 -0700 Cc: Toerless Eckert , IPv6 Operations , mboned@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <62860430-A9D7-46E2-8600-298810C18089@apple.com> References: <20100728072319.GU26000@cisco.com> <430696D0-EA0E-438A-B46F-D6DCD00652E0@apple.com> <20100728080009.GZ26000@cisco.com> <99D85A94-0DDF-4950-8151-035024CE8105@apple.com> <0D448E93-070E-478D-911F-60606DFE3441@cisco.com> To: Fred Baker X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1081) X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAQAAAZE= Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: On Aug 6, 2010, at 11:58, Fred Baker wrote: >=20 > Why are site-local or organization-local even on the table? An excellent question. In light of the absence, which you note, of any = kind of multicast routing to/from residential networks, it seems to me = that service provider edge routers are-- in actual practice-- global = multicast zone boundaries today. But that need not always be the case. = Call me a dreamer, but I'm not willing to stand up and recommend that we = brick up the residential side of the first-mile multicast link just yet. I'm really not sure why people seem to think that subscribers ought to = be lumped into the same organizational zone as their service provider. I = must need to be educated about operational considerations again. -- james woodyatt member of technical staff, communications engineering From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Aug 6 17:56:36 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E0333A67B4 for ; Fri, 6 Aug 2010 17:56:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.861 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.861 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.190, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_EQ_AU=0.377, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YaFx+pnkJbXG for ; Fri, 6 Aug 2010 17:56:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 277683A6359 for ; Fri, 6 Aug 2010 17:56:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OhXbO-0007BE-GV for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Sat, 07 Aug 2010 00:49:30 +0000 Received: from [202.136.110.251] (helo=smtp2.adam.net.au) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OhXbJ-0007Ak-4y for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Sat, 07 Aug 2010 00:49:25 +0000 Received: from 182-239-166-126.ip.adam.com.au ([182.239.166.126] helo=opy.nosense.org) by smtp2.adam.net.au with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1OhXbA-00035I-Qw; Sat, 07 Aug 2010 10:19:16 +0930 Received: from opy.nosense.org (localhost.localdomain [IPv6:::1]) by opy.nosense.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED3593B31E; Sat, 7 Aug 2010 10:19:12 +0930 (CST) Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2010 10:19:11 +0930 From: Mark Smith To: james woodyatt Cc: Fred Baker , Toerless Eckert , IPv6 Operations , mboned@ietf.org Subject: Re: draft-ietf-v6ops-cpe-simple-security-12.txt feedback Message-ID: <20100807101911.2dbbd430@opy.nosense.org> In-Reply-To: <62860430-A9D7-46E2-8600-298810C18089@apple.com> References: <20100728072319.GU26000@cisco.com> <430696D0-EA0E-438A-B46F-D6DCD00652E0@apple.com> <20100728080009.GZ26000@cisco.com> <99D85A94-0DDF-4950-8151-035024CE8105@apple.com> <0D448E93-070E-478D-911F-60606DFE3441@cisco.com> <62860430-A9D7-46E2-8600-298810C18089@apple.com> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.7.6 (GTK+ 2.20.1; x86_64-unknown-linux-gnu) X-Location: Lower Mitcham, South Australia, 5062 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: On Fri, 6 Aug 2010 13:20:03 -0700 james woodyatt wrote: > On Aug 6, 2010, at 11:58, Fred Baker wrote: > > > > Why are site-local or organization-local even on the table? > > An excellent question. In light of the absence, which you note, of any kind of multicast routing to/from residential networks, it seems to me that service provider edge routers are-- in actual practice-- global multicast zone boundaries today. But that need not always be the case. Call me a dreamer, but I'm not willing to stand up and recommend that we brick up the residential side of the first-mile multicast link just yet. > There's quite a lot of IPTV interest in the .au market at the moment, and one of the branded service wholesale IPTV providers to ISPs is using IPv4 multicast to deliver it. The provider is originating the multicast traffic outside the ISP networks, so in an IPv6 context I think the scope for that traffic would need to be global. To avoid using a global scope for that, it probably wouldn't be hard to re-originate the content at the IPv6 layer within the ISP's network, changing it's scope at the same time. However for that to work I think that would mean that scope for the traffic would be organization local, with the organisation including residential subscribers networks. Related to this topic, the TR-124_Issue-2.pdf document from the BBF, via Fred's ftp server, says - "LAN.MLD.ROUTED. The device MUST default to not sending MLD messages for scope of 0 through 8." > I'm really not sure why people seem to think that subscribers ought to be lumped into the same organizational zone as their service provider. I must need to be educated about operational considerations again. > > > -- > james woodyatt > member of technical staff, communications engineering > > > From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Aug 6 20:37:29 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 71E713A68B8 for ; Fri, 6 Aug 2010 20:37:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -109.238 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-109.238 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.743, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, RDNS_NONE=0.1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BhLZYc98Lh3E for ; Fri, 6 Aug 2010 20:37:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C80B3A6893 for ; Fri, 6 Aug 2010 20:37:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Oha9p-0001TS-VT for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Sat, 07 Aug 2010 03:33:13 +0000 Received: from [64.102.122.149] (helo=rtp-iport-2.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Oha9l-0001Sv-Tr for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Sat, 07 Aug 2010 03:33:10 +0000 Authentication-Results: rtp-iport-2.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.55,332,1278288000"; d="scan'208";a="144645457" Received: from rtp-core-1.cisco.com ([64.102.124.12]) by rtp-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 07 Aug 2010 03:33:08 +0000 Received: from Freds-Computer.local (dhcp-10-55-82-22.cisco.com [10.55.82.22]) by rtp-core-1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o773X1sk023134; Sat, 7 Aug 2010 03:33:02 GMT Received: from [127.0.0.1] by Freds-Computer.local (PGP Universal service); Sat, 07 Aug 2010 05:33:08 +0200 X-PGP-Universal: processed; by Freds-Computer.local on Sat, 07 Aug 2010 05:33:08 +0200 Subject: Re: draft-ietf-v6ops-cpe-simple-security-12.txt feedback Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1081) From: Fred Baker In-Reply-To: <20100807101911.2dbbd430@opy.nosense.org> Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2010 05:32:55 +0200 Cc: james woodyatt , Toerless Eckert , IPv6 Operations , mboned@ietf.org Message-Id: <2B8EFAF2-C615-43D3-A13B-7F1BFAC0BCEA@cisco.com> References: <20100728072319.GU26000@cisco.com> <430696D0-EA0E-438A-B46F-D6DCD00652E0@apple.com> <20100728080009.GZ26000@cisco.com> <99D85A94-0DDF-4950-8151-035024CE8105@apple.com> <0D448E93-070E-478D-911F-60606DFE3441@cisco.com> <62860430-A9D7-46E2-8600-298810C18089@apple.com> <20100807101911.2dbbd430@opy.nosense.org> To: Mark Smith X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1081) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: On Aug 7, 2010, at 2:49 AM, Mark Smith wrote: > Related to this topic, the TR-124_Issue-2.pdf document from the BBF, > via Fred's ftp server which btw is temporary - things I post there disappear about a month = later. Folks, please feel free to use the IETF Liaison site... http://www.ipinc.net/IPv4.GIF From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Aug 6 21:10:18 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B8BD3A6960 for ; Fri, 6 Aug 2010 21:10:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -109.231 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-109.231 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.736, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, RDNS_NONE=0.1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id e17ap5a+W26g for ; Fri, 6 Aug 2010 21:10:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54D893A6937 for ; Fri, 6 Aug 2010 21:10:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OhagC-0005wP-Pg for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Sat, 07 Aug 2010 04:06:40 +0000 Received: from [64.102.122.149] (helo=rtp-iport-2.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ohag8-0005vn-7I for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Sat, 07 Aug 2010 04:06:36 +0000 Authentication-Results: rtp-iport-2.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.55,332,1278288000"; d="scan'208";a="144650378" Received: from rtp-core-2.cisco.com ([64.102.124.13]) by rtp-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 07 Aug 2010 04:06:35 +0000 Received: from Freds-Computer.local (dhcp-10-55-82-22.cisco.com [10.55.82.22]) by rtp-core-2.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o7746QuC011779; Sat, 7 Aug 2010 04:06:28 GMT Received: from [127.0.0.1] by Freds-Computer.local (PGP Universal service); Sat, 07 Aug 2010 06:06:35 +0200 X-PGP-Universal: processed; by Freds-Computer.local on Sat, 07 Aug 2010 06:06:35 +0200 Subject: Re: draft-ietf-v6ops-cpe-simple-security-12.txt feedback Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1081) From: Fred Baker In-Reply-To: <20100807101911.2dbbd430@opy.nosense.org> Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2010 06:06:20 +0200 Cc: james woodyatt , Toerless Eckert , IPv6 Operations , mboned@ietf.org Message-Id: References: <20100728072319.GU26000@cisco.com> <430696D0-EA0E-438A-B46F-D6DCD00652E0@apple.com> <20100728080009.GZ26000@cisco.com> <99D85A94-0DDF-4950-8151-035024CE8105@apple.com> <0D448E93-070E-478D-911F-60606DFE3441@cisco.com> <62860430-A9D7-46E2-8600-298810C18089@apple.com> <20100807101911.2dbbd430@opy.nosense.org> To: Mark Smith X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1081) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: On Aug 6, 2010, at 10:20 PM, james woodyatt wrote: > I'm really not sure why people seem to think that subscribers ought to = be lumped into the same organizational zone as their service provider. I = must need to be educated about operational considerations again. On Aug 7, 2010, at 2:49 AM, Mark Smith wrote: > There's quite a lot of IPTV interest in the .au market at the moment, > and one of the branded service wholesale IPTV providers to ISPs is > using IPv4 multicast to deliver it. The provider is originating the > multicast traffic outside the ISP networks, so in an IPv6 context I > think the scope for that traffic would need to be global. OK, Mark, what are you arguing here? I *think* you are arguing that the router SHOULD be configurable by some = means (manual? UPnP? what?) to accept a multicast from the ISP and = repeat it on the (a?) local LAN, or more generally, that a CPE router = SHOULD be configurable to forward an identified class of multicast = traffic between subnets to which it is attached. Is that correct? If so, = I'll suggest we think about that recommendation for the CPE Router = discussion that we just initiated. With respect to security, which is the subject of this draft, how would = you recommend identifying the class of traffic? Are you suggesting that = a simple home firewall should prevent the home from being ddos'd using = unicast but should be default be ddos-able using multicast? Where does = this discussion lead us?= From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Aug 6 21:14:06 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D46BD3A693F for ; Fri, 6 Aug 2010 21:14:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.021 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.021 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.526, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1cZENn54HQ1x for ; Fri, 6 Aug 2010 21:14:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 417713A6937 for ; Fri, 6 Aug 2010 21:14:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OhamN-0006nM-2b for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Sat, 07 Aug 2010 04:13:03 +0000 Received: from [17.254.13.22] (helo=mail-out3.apple.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OhamH-0006gI-Et for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Sat, 07 Aug 2010 04:12:57 +0000 Received: from relay14.apple.com (relay14.apple.com [17.128.113.52]) by mail-out3.apple.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72272A1F76AF; Fri, 6 Aug 2010 21:12:56 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: 11807134-b7b36ae000004afc-72-4c5cdd45e541 Received: from [17.151.78.104] (Unknown_Domain [17.151.78.104]) (using TLS with cipher AES128-SHA (AES128-SHA/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by relay14.apple.com (Apple SCV relay) with SMTP id 93.DD.19196.74DDC5C4; Fri, 6 Aug 2010 21:12:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: draft-ietf-v6ops-cpe-simple-security-12.txt feedback Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1081) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: james woodyatt In-Reply-To: <20100807101911.2dbbd430@opy.nosense.org> Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2010 21:12:51 -0700 Cc: IPv6 Operations , mboned@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <23BDA6CF-80FE-4B00-A335-64749BB2F411@apple.com> References: <20100728072319.GU26000@cisco.com> <430696D0-EA0E-438A-B46F-D6DCD00652E0@apple.com> <20100728080009.GZ26000@cisco.com> <99D85A94-0DDF-4950-8151-035024CE8105@apple.com> <0D448E93-070E-478D-911F-60606DFE3441@cisco.com> <62860430-A9D7-46E2-8600-298810C18089@apple.com> <20100807101911.2dbbd430@opy.nosense.org> To: Mark Smith X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1081) X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAQAAAZE= Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: On Aug 6, 2010, at 17:49, Mark Smith wrote: >=20 > To avoid using a global scope for that, it probably wouldn't be hard = to re-originate the content at the IPv6 layer within the ISP's network, = changing it's scope at the same time. I fail to understand why this should be viewed as necessary. If service = providers feel the need to re-originate content at a local interface = address, they can certainly do so without changing the multicast = addressing scope. They could easily just retransmit with a = distinguished global scope address in the RFC 3305 range corresponding = to a route filter at their transit borders. Nothing requires service providers to advertise every global scope = multicast route from their network interior and subscribers all the way = out to the public default free zone. In fact, I'd be shocked and = surprised if they did. That said, I'm sorta guessing that more interest in reserving some value = of SCOP > 8 for subscriber aggregation purposes will happen when more = interest in multicast routing arises among service providers, but I'm = not sure MZAP [RFC 2776] is well-specified for operation across AS = boundaries. (Meanwhile, there is RFC 2908, which makes my head hurt.) > "LAN.MLD.ROUTED. The device MUST default to not sending MLD messages = for scope of 0 through 8." This says gateways do not join multicast groups on their LAN interfaces = unless SCOP > 8, but it says nothing about forwarding behavior. = Otherwise, this isn't that different from what our draft says. Our draft says that multicast-capable residential gateways should = default to acting as an organization-local zone boundary, i.e. they are = multicast routers that only *forward* multicast with SCOP > 8. They can = still join multicast narrower-scope groups on the LAN, but they do not = forward them into the service provider network. Likewise, they can join = narrower-scope groups on their WAN interface, but they do not forward = them into the subscriber LAN. That's because it's the forwarding behavior we care about. -- james woodyatt member of technical staff, communications engineering From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Sat Aug 7 05:34:59 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6433B3A686B for ; Sat, 7 Aug 2010 05:34:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.502 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.502 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.704, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, J_CHICKENPOX_32=0.6, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pRTLH54AzcWP for ; Sat, 7 Aug 2010 05:34:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44C173A67FC for ; Sat, 7 Aug 2010 05:34:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OhiWp-000NrP-Lf for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Sat, 07 Aug 2010 12:29:31 +0000 Received: from [93.17.128.2] (helo=smtp21.services.sfr.fr) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OhiWm-000Nqu-Pk for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Sat, 07 Aug 2010 12:29:28 +0000 Received: from filter.sfr.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by msfrf2108.sfr.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 93D177000091; Sat, 7 Aug 2010 14:29:27 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.0.20] (per92-10-88-166-221-144.fbx.proxad.net [88.166.221.144]) by msfrf2108.sfr.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 37F6E7000086; Sat, 7 Aug 2010 14:29:26 +0200 (CEST) X-SFR-UUID: 20100807122926229.37F6E7000086@msfrf2108.sfr.fr Subject: Re: Avoiding the terminology confusion with NAT66 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1081) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?R=E9mi_Despr=E9s?= In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2010 14:29:23 +0200 Cc: Randy Bush , "Dan Wing" , IPv6 v6ops , Behave WG Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <19829FFA-1B87-4906-BBA4-FE43A2AF8D3D@free.fr> References: <4FAA72A8-6223-4956-9CB1-D3DB4E555209@cisco.com> <4C577BF2.9000807@gmail.com> <148F4D91-A203-4660-B2D1-59808D86A876@cisco.com> <3D4F97DE-E523-4206-BB87-61281C4A73B4@apnic.net> <040401cb332e$2f5ce380$8e16aa80$@com> <86F21EF8-9C98-4C2A-BAF5-29F4AD6D1426@free.fr> <055d01cb334d$65f478d0$31dd6a70$@com> <47295AD4-7F50-4751-A9EC-45D48D928CD7@free.fr> To: Bob Hinden X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1081) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: Le 5 ao=FBt 2010 =E0 23:40, Bob Hinden a =E9crit : > Randy, >=20 > On Aug 3, 2010, at 2:43 PM, Randy Bush wrote: >=20 >>>> If so, I encourage Margaret and Fred to not use NAT66 for their >>>> specification. Rather, "IPv6 Prefix Rewriting". "6pr" almost = rolls >>>> off the tongue. >>> Other names could do it too, e.g. PT66 for prefix translation, or = SPT >>> for Stateless Prefix Translation, whatever Margaret and:or the >>> majority would prefer, provided it isn't NAT66. >>=20 >> since we're into deceptive marketing, why not call it chocolate ice >> cream? >=20 > I think it's the other way around. To use your example, NAT66 is a = name many people are using to describe all flavors of ice cream. =20 Right > Margaret's draft is a particular flavor of ice cream. =20 > It would be better to call it chocolate ice cream :-) +1 ;-) RD >=20 > Bob >=20 >=20 >=20 From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Sun Aug 8 03:07:16 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 697EC3A6868 for ; Sun, 8 Aug 2010 03:07:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.283 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.283 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.612, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_EQ_AU=0.377, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yQMUQ-oaOj2Y for ; Sun, 8 Aug 2010 03:07:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EAAF93A67F1 for ; Sun, 8 Aug 2010 03:07:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Oi2gs-000Oaz-9B for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Sun, 08 Aug 2010 10:01:14 +0000 Received: from [202.136.110.249] (helo=smtp3.adam.net.au) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Oi2gp-000OaY-B5 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Sun, 08 Aug 2010 10:01:11 +0000 Received: from 219-90-255-65.ip.adam.com.au ([219.90.255.65] helo=opy.nosense.org) by smtp3.adam.net.au with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1Oi2gi-0003nO-8X; Sun, 08 Aug 2010 19:31:04 +0930 Received: from opy.nosense.org (localhost.localdomain [IPv6:::1]) by opy.nosense.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54EF83B325; Sun, 8 Aug 2010 19:30:41 +0930 (CST) Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2010 19:30:40 +0930 From: Mark Smith To: Fred Baker Cc: james woodyatt , Toerless Eckert , IPv6 Operations , mboned@ietf.org Subject: Re: draft-ietf-v6ops-cpe-simple-security-12.txt feedback Message-ID: <20100808193040.1063ffb1@opy.nosense.org> In-Reply-To: References: <20100728072319.GU26000@cisco.com> <430696D0-EA0E-438A-B46F-D6DCD00652E0@apple.com> <20100728080009.GZ26000@cisco.com> <99D85A94-0DDF-4950-8151-035024CE8105@apple.com> <0D448E93-070E-478D-911F-60606DFE3441@cisco.com> <62860430-A9D7-46E2-8600-298810C18089@apple.com> <20100807101911.2dbbd430@opy.nosense.org> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.7.6 (GTK+ 2.20.1; x86_64-unknown-linux-gnu) X-Location: Lower Mitcham, South Australia, 5062 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: Hi Fred, On Sat, 7 Aug 2010 06:06:20 +0200 Fred Baker wrote: > On Aug 6, 2010, at 10:20 PM, james woodyatt wrote: > > > I'm really not sure why people seem to think that subscribers ought to be lumped into the same organizational zone as their service provider. I must need to be educated about operational considerations again. > > On Aug 7, 2010, at 2:49 AM, Mark Smith wrote: > > > There's quite a lot of IPTV interest in the .au market at the moment, > > and one of the branded service wholesale IPTV providers to ISPs is > > using IPv4 multicast to deliver it. The provider is originating the > > multicast traffic outside the ISP networks, so in an IPv6 context I > > think the scope for that traffic would need to be global. > > OK, Mark, what are you arguing here? > > I *think* you are arguing that the router SHOULD be configurable by some means (manual? UPnP? what?) to accept a multicast from the ISP and repeat it on the (a?) local LAN, or more generally, that a CPE router SHOULD be configurable to forward an identified class of multicast traffic between subnets to which it is attached. Is that correct? If so, I'll suggest we think about that recommendation for the CPE Router discussion that we just initiated. > Yes. I would assume that the multicast functionality would be achieved by having the CPE act as an MLD proxy. > With respect to security, which is the subject of this draft, how would you recommend identifying the class of traffic? Are you suggesting that a simple home firewall should prevent the home from being ddos'd using unicast but should be default be ddos-able using multicast? No. Firstly I think the upstream network's multicast forwarding capability provides a level of protection. If the upstream ISP network doesn't support multicast forwarding, then the CPE would only receive multicast traffic on it's WAN interface from on-link peers. If the CPE is acting as an MLD proxy, then that multicast traffic would only be forwarded onto the LAN ports if there were subscriptions for groups towards which this malicious multicast traffic were being sent to. So current threat from malicious multicast traffic is quite low level. Even if the upstream ISPs network is multicast enabled, the Internet isn't, so the threat isn't a global one. Secondly, when the ISPs network is configured to multicast route, for multicast traffic inbound towards the home LAN, it would seem to me that MLD / MLD proxy would in effect serve as a "multicast firewall configuration" protocol. Traffic for groups that are subscribed to, regardless of their scope, could be permitted to be forwarded by the CPE from the WAN to appropriate LAN interfaces. Any other inbound multicast traffic not be forwarded. I can't really think of a use for outbound multicast i.e. the unique multicast source is attached to the home LAN. However, with IPv6 restoring or attempting to restore the peer-to-peer communications nature of the Internet, the are probably some use cases. They're probably worth trying to avoid constraining if doing so doesn't reduce security unacceptably. In the context of this draft, I think CPE multicast security is possibly is not simple enough to just use multicast address scopes as security discriminators in determining if the traffic should be forwarded or not. It might be better to say in this draft something like, "all multicast traffic is not to be forwarded by the CPE, unless appropriate multicast traffic security mechanisms have been implemented. Such multicast security mechanisms are out of scope for this memo." (or addressed in a multicast security RFC that I'm not aware of.) Regards, Mark. From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Sun Aug 8 16:11:47 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FD283A699F for ; Sun, 8 Aug 2010 16:11:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -109.033 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-109.033 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.538, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, RDNS_NONE=0.1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xLtlm45dDQSL for ; Sun, 8 Aug 2010 16:11:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EC0A3A67D4 for ; Sun, 8 Aug 2010 16:11:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OiEwD-000HaD-RW for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Sun, 08 Aug 2010 23:05:53 +0000 Received: from [171.68.10.86] (helo=sj-iport-4.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OiEwB-000HZp-4d for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Sun, 08 Aug 2010 23:05:51 +0000 Authentication-Results: sj-iport-4.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.55,339,1278288000"; d="scan'208";a="169223185" Received: from sj-core-4.cisco.com ([171.68.223.138]) by sj-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP; 08 Aug 2010 23:05:50 +0000 Received: from stealth-10-32-244-218.cisco.com (stealth-10-32-244-218.cisco.com [10.32.244.218]) by sj-core-4.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o78N5hRi024362; Sun, 8 Aug 2010 23:05:44 GMT Received: from [127.0.0.1] by stealth-10-32-244-218.cisco.com (PGP Universal service); Sun, 08 Aug 2010 16:05:50 -0700 X-PGP-Universal: processed; by stealth-10-32-244-218.cisco.com on Sun, 08 Aug 2010 16:05:50 -0700 Subject: Re: draft-ietf-v6ops-cpe-simple-security-12.txt feedback Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1081) From: Fred Baker In-Reply-To: <20100808193040.1063ffb1@opy.nosense.org> Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2010 16:05:36 -0700 Cc: james woodyatt , Toerless Eckert , IPv6 Operations , mboned@ietf.org Message-Id: References: <20100728072319.GU26000@cisco.com> <430696D0-EA0E-438A-B46F-D6DCD00652E0@apple.com> <20100728080009.GZ26000@cisco.com> <99D85A94-0DDF-4950-8151-035024CE8105@apple.com> <0D448E93-070E-478D-911F-60606DFE3441@cisco.com> <62860430-A9D7-46E2-8600-298810C18089@apple.com> <20100807101911.2dbbd430@opy.nosense.org> <20100808193040.1063ffb1@opy.nosense.org> To: Mark Smith X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1081) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: On Aug 8, 2010, at 3:00 AM, Mark Smith wrote: > It might be better to say in this draft something like, "all > multicast traffic is not to be forwarded by the CPE, unless = appropriate > multicast traffic security mechanisms have been implemented. Such > multicast security mechanisms are out of scope for this memo." (or > addressed in a multicast security RFC that I'm not aware of.) Again, I'm wrestling with the distinction between the security draft and = the CPE Router draft. Absent the configuration of some form of multicast = routing, I would be surprised by the router forwarding anything at all. = Configuration of routing protocols or mechanisms, and routing behaviors = on or off by default, sounds more like the subject of the CPE Router = draft to me. I should think that the security draft is about filters - = "presuming that a standard router would choose to forward the datagram, = is there any other policy that would prevent it?" A standard router = doesn't do a thing with MLD unless it is configured to do so.= From zikotyqo9752@comcast.net Sun Aug 8 17:22:10 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C23533A69F0 for ; Sun, 8 Aug 2010 17:22:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.407 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.407 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_SBL=20, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8DJRVGEwlc4w for ; Sun, 8 Aug 2010 17:22:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from comcast.net (c-67-182-60-200.hsd1.ca.comcast.net [67.182.60.200]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40F963A69EB for ; Sun, 8 Aug 2010 17:22:08 -0700 (PDT) From: To: v6ops-archive@ietf.org Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2010 17:23:00 -0700 Subject: Re: your final results Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-Id: <20100809002208.40F963A69EB@core3.amsl.com> Your luxury needs will all be fulfilled here http://www.withsurprise.ru/ From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Aug 9 01:48:13 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB4AB3A6AAD for ; Mon, 9 Aug 2010 01:48:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.444 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.444 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.646, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, J_CHICKENPOX_13=0.6, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YiMZWX7GoENu for ; Mon, 9 Aug 2010 01:48:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F7F03A6855 for ; Mon, 9 Aug 2010 01:48:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OiNxB-0004f6-8Y for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Mon, 09 Aug 2010 08:43:29 +0000 Received: from [93.17.128.19] (helo=smtp23.services.sfr.fr) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OiNx8-0004eV-8C for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 09 Aug 2010 08:43:26 +0000 Received: from filter.sfr.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by msfrf2304.sfr.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 97AF77000092; Mon, 9 Aug 2010 10:43:24 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.0.20] (per92-10-88-166-221-144.fbx.proxad.net [88.166.221.144]) by msfrf2304.sfr.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id F11F67000081; Mon, 9 Aug 2010 10:43:23 +0200 (CEST) X-SFR-UUID: 20100809084323987.F11F67000081@msfrf2304.sfr.fr Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1081) Subject: draft-ietf-v6ops-cpe-simple-security-12 - default behavior From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?R=E9mi_Despr=E9s?= Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2010 10:20:55 +0200 Cc: IPv6 v6ops Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <39060BE5-9C57-4FAC-A049-012E688A9133@free.fr> References: To: James Woodyatt , Fred Baker X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1081) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: Hi, James and Fred, The mail below apparently didn't receive much attention. Yet, the subject is IMHO important. We all recognized in Anaheim that, concerning IPv6, some people prefer = NAT44-like filtering to e2e transparency, and some other people prefer = e2e transparency. The consensus as I remember it was that vendors would be free to choose = the default behavior one way or another. In my understanding, the proposed wording below (or something = equivalent) would express more accurately that consensus. Regards, RD D=E9but du message r=E9exp=E9di=E9 : > De : R=E9mi Despr=E9s > Date : 22 juin 2010 15:28:53 HAEC > =C0 : James Woodyatt > Cc : IPv6 v6ops > Objet : R=E9p : I-D Action:draft-ietf-v6ops-cpe-simple-security-11.txt=20= >=20 > Hi, James, >=20 > The current REC 43 says: >=20 > -"Gateways MUST provide an easily selected configuration option > that permits a "transparent mode" of operation that forwards > all unsolicited flows regardless of forwarding direction, > i.e. to disable the IPv6 simple security capabilities of the > gateway." >=20 > This seems to imply that, if a CPE supports the default simple = security, it should have it enabled by default.=20 > In my understanding of what was agreed, each manufacturer would decide = whether the default configuration would be "transparent mode" or not. >=20 > To reflect this, REC 43 could, for example, be: > -"Gateways that support simple security MUST provide an easily = selected configuration option that, if the default configuration has = simple security enabled, permits a "transparent mode" of operation that = forwards all unsolicited flows regardless of forwarding direction, or = that, if the default configuration has "transparent mode" enabled, = enables the filtering of unsolicited incoming flows."=20 >=20 > Regards, > RD >=20 >=20 >=20 From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Aug 9 03:43:14 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F05B3A697A for ; Mon, 9 Aug 2010 03:43:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -8.421 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-8.421 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.826, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, J_CHICKENPOX_13=0.6, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3Hko4xzXAeLN for ; Mon, 9 Aug 2010 03:43:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76D7D3A6974 for ; Mon, 9 Aug 2010 03:43:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OiPlJ-000MFR-Di for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Mon, 09 Aug 2010 10:39:21 +0000 Received: from [64.102.122.149] (helo=rtp-iport-2.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OiPlD-000MEk-Ii for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 09 Aug 2010 10:39:15 +0000 Authentication-Results: rtp-iport-2.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.55,341,1278288000"; d="scan'208";a="145370431" Received: from rtp-core-1.cisco.com ([64.102.124.12]) by rtp-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 09 Aug 2010 10:39:14 +0000 Received: from ams3-vpn-dhcp6702.cisco.com (ams3-vpn-dhcp6702.cisco.com [10.61.90.45]) by rtp-core-1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o79AdCql002538; Mon, 9 Aug 2010 10:39:12 GMT Subject: Re: draft-ietf-v6ops-cpe-simple-security-12 - default behavior Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1081) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 From: Ole Troan In-Reply-To: <39060BE5-9C57-4FAC-A049-012E688A9133@free.fr> Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2010 12:39:11 +0200 Cc: James Woodyatt , Fred Baker , IPv6 v6ops Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <4A10C30C-B4A6-416F-BB70-544EB85C069F@cisco.com> References: <39060BE5-9C57-4FAC-A049-012E688A9133@free.fr> To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?R=E9mi_Despr=E9s?= X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1081) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: > The mail below apparently didn't receive much attention. > Yet, the subject is IMHO important. > We all recognized in Anaheim that, concerning IPv6, some people prefer = NAT44-like filtering to e2e transparency, and some other people prefer = e2e transparency. > The consensus as I remember it was that vendors would be free to = choose the default behavior one way or another. >=20 > In my understanding, the proposed wording below (or something = equivalent) would express more accurately that consensus. after receiving review comments from the security directorate on the = Basic IPv6 CPE requirements document, we now have the following = requirement: S-1: The IPv6 CE router SHOULD support [I-D.ietf-v6ops-cpe-simple-security]. In particular, the IPv6 CE router SHOULD support functionality sufficient for implementing the set of recommendations in [I-D.ietf-v6ops-cpe-simple-security] section 4. Ths document takes no position on whether such functionality is enabled by default or mechanisms by which users would configure it. I also support text in the simple security draft which does make it = clear that it does not make any recommendation on a default. it simply = specifies what NAT equivalent 'security' is. cheers, Ole >=20 > D=E9but du message r=E9exp=E9di=E9 : >=20 >> De : R=E9mi Despr=E9s >> Date : 22 juin 2010 15:28:53 HAEC >> =C0 : James Woodyatt >> Cc : IPv6 v6ops >> Objet : R=E9p : I-D = Action:draft-ietf-v6ops-cpe-simple-security-11.txt=20 >>=20 >> Hi, James, >>=20 >> The current REC 43 says: >>=20 >> -"Gateways MUST provide an easily selected configuration option >> that permits a "transparent mode" of operation that forwards >> all unsolicited flows regardless of forwarding direction, >> i.e. to disable the IPv6 simple security capabilities of the >> gateway." >>=20 >> This seems to imply that, if a CPE supports the default simple = security, it should have it enabled by default.=20 >> In my understanding of what was agreed, each manufacturer would = decide whether the default configuration would be "transparent mode" or = not. >>=20 >> To reflect this, REC 43 could, for example, be: >> -"Gateways that support simple security MUST provide an easily = selected configuration option that, if the default configuration has = simple security enabled, permits a "transparent mode" of operation that = forwards all unsolicited flows regardless of forwarding direction, or = that, if the default configuration has "transparent mode" enabled, = enables the filtering of unsolicited incoming flows."=20 >>=20 >> Regards, >> RD >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 From owner@megatron.ietf.org Mon Aug 9 10:05:51 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8238A3A6B09 for ; Mon, 9 Aug 2010 10:05:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -18.414 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-18.414 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_95=3, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, GB_PHARMACY=1, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619, RDNS_NONE=0.1, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_OB_SURBL=10, URIBL_SC_SURBL=10, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id j6JCa5h8VgFD for ; Mon, 9 Aug 2010 10:05:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from amoplans.com (unknown [109.93.20.61]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id EDC963A6955 for ; Mon, 9 Aug 2010 10:05:41 -0700 (PDT) From: v6ops-archive@megatron.ietf.org To: v6ops-archive@megatron.ietf.org Subject: v6ops-archive@megatron.ietf.org, These pilules are the secret of many vigorous lovers. 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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Aug 9 15:08:43 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A551B3A69B8 for ; Mon, 9 Aug 2010 15:08:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.079 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.079 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.408, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_EQ_AU=0.377, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3xNX+wdEAJW0 for ; Mon, 9 Aug 2010 15:08:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B430A3A6AE3 for ; Mon, 9 Aug 2010 15:08:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OiaRd-000JXH-MJ for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Mon, 09 Aug 2010 22:03:45 +0000 Received: from [202.136.110.249] (helo=smtp3.adam.net.au) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OiaRb-000JWs-0H for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 09 Aug 2010 22:03:43 +0000 Received: from 219-90-255-65.ip.adam.com.au ([219.90.255.65] helo=opy.nosense.org) by smtp3.adam.net.au with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1OiaRR-0007kf-EO; Tue, 10 Aug 2010 07:33:33 +0930 Received: from opy.nosense.org (localhost.localdomain [IPv6:::1]) by opy.nosense.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B23063B31E; Tue, 10 Aug 2010 07:32:50 +0930 (CST) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 07:32:50 +0930 From: Mark Smith To: Fred Baker Cc: james woodyatt , Toerless Eckert , IPv6 Operations , mboned@ietf.org Subject: Re: draft-ietf-v6ops-cpe-simple-security-12.txt feedback Message-ID: <20100810073250.501a896d@opy.nosense.org> In-Reply-To: References: <20100728072319.GU26000@cisco.com> <430696D0-EA0E-438A-B46F-D6DCD00652E0@apple.com> <20100728080009.GZ26000@cisco.com> <99D85A94-0DDF-4950-8151-035024CE8105@apple.com> <0D448E93-070E-478D-911F-60606DFE3441@cisco.com> <62860430-A9D7-46E2-8600-298810C18089@apple.com> <20100807101911.2dbbd430@opy.nosense.org> <20100808193040.1063ffb1@opy.nosense.org> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.7.6 (GTK+ 2.20.1; x86_64-unknown-linux-gnu) X-Location: Lower Mitcham, South Australia, 5062 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: Hi Fred, On Sun, 8 Aug 2010 16:05:36 -0700 Fred Baker wrote: > > On Aug 8, 2010, at 3:00 AM, Mark Smith wrote: > > > It might be better to say in this draft something like, "all > > multicast traffic is not to be forwarded by the CPE, unless appropriate > > multicast traffic security mechanisms have been implemented. Such > > multicast security mechanisms are out of scope for this memo." (or > > addressed in a multicast security RFC that I'm not aware of.) > > Again, I'm wrestling with the distinction between the security draft and the CPE Router draft. Absent the configuration of some form of multicast routing, I would be surprised by the router forwarding anything at all. Configuration of routing protocols or mechanisms, and routing behaviors on or off by default, sounds more like the subject of the CPE Router draft to me. I should think that the security draft is about filters - "presuming that a standard router would choose to forward the datagram, is there any other policy that would prevent it?" A standard router doesn't do a thing with MLD unless it is configured to do so. I suppose that might mean there are three levels/layers of problem, with parts of the layers covered by the two drafts (and possibly are to be covered by other drafts) - what are the capabilities of the CPE (unicast routing is the baseline, capable of routing multicast is optional) - what capabilities are enabled by default - what are appropriate security measures for those capabilities, with whether they're enabled by default being an influence on what is appropriate. I suppose my comments have been a bit influenced by some of the IPv6 CPE I've been working with. They have multicast capabilities, and options relating to IGMP or MLD snooping. Since they're low end residential CPE at a low price point, inherently I think I've started to accept that their capabilities are the baseline IPv6 CPE functionality that will be common. Regards, Mark. From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Aug 9 15:08:44 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B8B83A680B for ; Mon, 9 Aug 2010 15:08:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -109.032 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-109.032 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.537, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, RDNS_NONE=0.1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bmJVD1IzqrQ8 for ; Mon, 9 Aug 2010 15:08:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2EB913A6990 for ; Mon, 9 Aug 2010 15:08:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OiaVd-000JzU-Ti for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Mon, 09 Aug 2010 22:07:53 +0000 Received: from [171.68.10.87] (helo=sj-iport-5.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OiaVb-000Jyw-Jp for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 09 Aug 2010 22:07:51 +0000 Authentication-Results: sj-iport-5.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.55,345,1278288000"; d="scan'208";a="237922891" Received: from sj-core-4.cisco.com ([171.68.223.138]) by sj-iport-5.cisco.com with ESMTP; 09 Aug 2010 22:07:50 +0000 Received: from stealth-10-32-244-218.cisco.com (stealth-10-32-244-218.cisco.com [10.32.244.218]) by sj-core-4.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o79M7h4C021108; Mon, 9 Aug 2010 22:07:45 GMT Received: from [127.0.0.1] by stealth-10-32-244-218.cisco.com (PGP Universal service); Mon, 09 Aug 2010 15:07:50 -0700 X-PGP-Universal: processed; by stealth-10-32-244-218.cisco.com on Mon, 09 Aug 2010 15:07:50 -0700 Subject: Re: draft-ietf-v6ops-cpe-simple-security-12.txt feedback Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1081) From: Fred Baker In-Reply-To: <20100810073250.501a896d@opy.nosense.org> Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2010 15:07:36 -0700 Cc: james woodyatt , Toerless Eckert , IPv6 Operations , mboned@ietf.org Message-Id: <8D610197-504E-436D-BDE1-AEBEA253A559@cisco.com> References: <20100728072319.GU26000@cisco.com> <430696D0-EA0E-438A-B46F-D6DCD00652E0@apple.com> <20100728080009.GZ26000@cisco.com> <99D85A94-0DDF-4950-8151-035024CE8105@apple.com> <0D448E93-070E-478D-911F-60606DFE3441@cisco.com> <62860430-A9D7-46E2-8600-298810C18089@apple.com> <20100807101911.2dbbd430@opy.nosense.org> <20100808193040.1063ffb1@opy.nosense.org> <20100810073250.501a896d@opy.nosense.org> To: Mark Smith X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1081) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: On Aug 9, 2010, at 3:02 PM, Mark Smith wrote: > Hi Fred, >=20 > On Sun, 8 Aug 2010 16:05:36 -0700 > Fred Baker wrote: >=20 >>=20 >> On Aug 8, 2010, at 3:00 AM, Mark Smith wrote: >>=20 >>> It might be better to say in this draft something like, "all >>> multicast traffic is not to be forwarded by the CPE, unless = appropriate >>> multicast traffic security mechanisms have been implemented. Such >>> multicast security mechanisms are out of scope for this memo." (or >>> addressed in a multicast security RFC that I'm not aware of.) >>=20 >> Again, I'm wrestling with the distinction between the security draft = and the CPE Router draft. Absent the configuration of some form of = multicast routing, I would be surprised by the router forwarding = anything at all. Configuration of routing protocols or mechanisms, and = routing behaviors on or off by default, sounds more like the subject of = the CPE Router draft to me. I should think that the security draft is = about filters - "presuming that a standard router would choose to = forward the datagram, is there any other policy that would prevent it?" = A standard router doesn't do a thing with MLD unless it is configured to = do so. >=20 > I suppose that might mean there are three levels/layers of problem, > with parts of the layers covered by the two drafts (and possibly > are to be covered by other drafts) >=20 > - what are the capabilities of the CPE (unicast routing is the > baseline, capable of routing multicast is optional) >=20 > - what capabilities are enabled by default >=20 > - what are appropriate security measures for those capabilities, with > whether they're enabled by default being an influence on what is > appropriate. >=20 > I suppose my comments have been a bit influenced by some of the IPv6 = CPE > I've been working with. They have multicast capabilities, and options > relating to IGMP or MLD snooping. Since they're low end residential > CPE at a low price point, inherently I think I've started to accept > that their capabilities are the baseline IPv6 CPE functionality that > will be common. And you may be right. That doesn't make "turn on MLD" a security = recommendation... 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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Wed Aug 11 09:16:42 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 822EA3A6987 for ; Wed, 11 Aug 2010 09:16:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.861 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.861 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.403, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id E0O30oKoKtqF for ; Wed, 11 Aug 2010 09:16:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4647E3A69C6 for ; Wed, 11 Aug 2010 09:16:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OjDto-000KY3-U8 for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Wed, 11 Aug 2010 16:11:28 +0000 Received: from web111413.mail.gq1.yahoo.com ([67.195.15.204]) by psg.com with smtp (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OjDtl-000KXV-1D for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 11 Aug 2010 16:11:26 +0000 Received: (qmail 63677 invoked by uid 60001); 11 Aug 2010 16:11:24 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s1024; t=1281543083; bh=bUuFL6jOxQHxoAjrdlalePmJvlY+Zlyrg3hLoFwz4Vc=; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Date:From:Reply-To:Subject:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=yKJ8JWpqOYB+hq66GwsrFFByLUNrYzZbP1wwdhxtKMI9JNDQa62KRZgrA11DN3Sak5SHd2KIcxG2+Z+9xy+DHuIypQUNUL/CNA2TAJl7uE4XJ3qC0IcLuDOKMa+7+2twfDQKiqw6oAeRvOD2krluo5bEahkPDa0p1PXCQapn9KM= DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Date:From:Reply-To:Subject:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=BVN1K8C+lTRVro7hzuonVs0Y8nrs5hsdCsxJyHtBDWaa6wo22yn+S7H5hllhocoRUjD/8+c/DqRwfczXo4sHy1d/+5eKaUhI5vrB7KCGLanEVLFGdl6aqxDfGV/QLT8FUmja3H6iOVPB4mAKFZU69cxzVKtC5zK9et1pIyX/rgg=; Message-ID: <943151.58329.qm@web111413.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: 3og1ovEVM1lrHI..dFFWkrKj2vkdu4MEWkBT._scgeZde7C ejX_ZpyMURePYVFIDkS.2XGuQY8aggQM2Bc5W9RSM294Lrr74iVAHE3.iQqA 6fcUiZsV5PUPRj3FQHLDgsdnGN1DJDLzekit44fvkvTWsMsgNak5Y1qeitoA sh9xz1fXDwb0qJrmy.irScP77nKBxNxptZ874nJg0xXEhgvyC5tUjauesrMV uYPq7G3.hwPGo5ngi4QoG_vcKF.qt07bc8T1f1FGVON_vBZjYq4OX1ISumPg utnw6mdpIrfnn9DBs6IahCU7qVDY9hSqRRTCwLQwe1pIgoHonE2ydXuqTUgy 51vUOddqm6nMz Received: from [206.16.17.212] by web111413.mail.gq1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 11 Aug 2010 09:11:23 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/459 YahooMailWebService/0.8.105.279950 References: <392017B9-C173-4A53-99E7-6FFF8BB24FEB@cisco.com> Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 09:11:23 -0700 (PDT) From: Behcet Sarikaya Reply-To: Behcet Sarikaya Subject: Re: draft-gundavelli-v6ops-l2-unicast WGLC To: Fred Baker , IPv6 Operations Cc: Kurt Erik Lindqvist In-Reply-To: <392017B9-C173-4A53-99E7-6FFF8BB24FEB@cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-465798579-1281543083=:58329" Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: --0-465798579-1281543083=:58329 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I think this draft has some operational utility and therefore support its adoption as WG draft. Regards, Behcet > >From: Fred Baker >To: IPv6 Operations ; 6man Mailing List >Cc: Kurt Erik Lindqvist >Sent: Sat, July 31, 2010 12:54:27 AM >Subject: draft-gundavelli-v6ops-l2-unicast WGLC > > >This is to initiate a two week working group last call of >draft-gundavelli-v6ops-l2-unicast. Please read it now. If you find nits >(spelling errors, minor suggested wording changes, etc), comment to the authors; >if you find greater issues, such as disagreeing with a statement or finding >additional issues that need to be addressed, please post your comments to the >combined lists. > > >We are looking specifically for comments on the importance of the document as >well as its content. If you have read the document and believe it to be of >operational utility, that is also an important comment to make. --0-465798579-1281543083=:58329 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
I think this draft has some operational utility and therefore support its adoption as WG draft.

Regards,

Behcet

From: Fred Baker <fred@cisco.com>
To: IPv6 Operations <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>; 6man Mailing List <ipv6@ietf.org>
Cc: Kurt Erik Lindqvist <kurtis@kurtis.pp.se>
Sent: Sat, July 31, 2010 12:54:27 AM
Subject: draft-gundavelli-v6ops-l2-unicast WGLC

This is to initiate a two week working group last call of draft-gundavelli-v6ops-l2-unicast. Please read it now. If you find nits (spelling errors, minor suggested wording changes, etc), comment to the authors; if you find greater issues, such as disagreeing with a statement or finding additional issues that need to be addressed, please post your comments to the combined lists.

We are looking specifically for comments on the importance of the document as well as its content. If you have read the document and believe it to be of operational utility, that is also an important comment to make.

--0-465798579-1281543083=:58329-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Wed Aug 11 10:02:02 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 348DC3A6986 for ; Wed, 11 Aug 2010 10:02:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.466 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.466 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.134, BAYES_00=-2.599, NO_RELAYS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2wmSqzlLesok for ; Wed, 11 Aug 2010 10:02:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 288173A6947 for ; Wed, 11 Aug 2010 10:02:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OjEfS-0002ha-1N for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Wed, 11 Aug 2010 17:00:42 +0000 Received: from [2001:1890:1112:1::20] (helo=mail.ietf.org) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OjEfP-0002h9-RW for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 11 Aug 2010 17:00:40 +0000 Received: by core3.amsl.com (Postfix, from userid 0) id 5E5A13A6A74; Wed, 11 Aug 2010 10:00:02 -0700 (PDT) From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org To: i-d-announce@ietf.org Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org Subject: I-D Action:draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-cpe-router-07.txt Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <20100811170002.5E5A13A6A74@core3.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 10:00:02 -0700 (PDT) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the IPv6 Operations Working Group of the IETF. Title : Basic Requirements for IPv6 Customer Edge Routers Author(s) : H. Singh, et al. Filename : draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-cpe-router-07.txt Pages : 16 Date : 2010-08-11 This document specifies requirements for an IPv6 Customer Edge (CE) router. Specifically, the current version of this document focuses on the basic provisioning of an IPv6 CE router and the provisioning of IPv6 hosts attached to it. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-cpe-router-07.txt Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-cpe-router-07.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2010-08-11094919.I-D@ietf.org> --NextPart-- From simulatorsy7@abbeycollege.ie Wed Aug 11 10:38:35 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7ADE63A69BB for ; Wed, 11 Aug 2010 10:38:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -81.774 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-81.774 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_ALMOST_IP=5.417, FH_HOST_ALMOST_IP=1.889, HELO_DYNAMIC_DHCP=1.398, HELO_EQ_DSL=1.129, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_06=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=1.396, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_HELO_EQ_DSL_3=1.022, SARE_UNI=0.591, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id s+Ub9s4fUKxi for ; Wed, 11 Aug 2010 10:38:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dsl-247-144-95.telkomadsl.co.za (dsl-247-144-95.telkomadsl.co.za [41.247.144.95]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F4963A6A86 for ; Wed, 11 Aug 2010 10:37:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 41.247.144.95 by mail.abbeycollege.ie; Wed, 11 Aug 2010 19:35:21 +0200 Message-ID: <000d01cb397b$9279af40$6400a8c0@simulatorsy7> From: "Snapfish" To: Subject: Important dates, impressive savings - calendars up to 60% off! 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------=_NextPart_000_0007_01CB397B.9279AF40-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Wed Aug 11 10:47:10 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4664728C0E5 for ; Wed, 11 Aug 2010 10:47:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.071 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.071 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.576, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jejUg1rSD690 for ; Wed, 11 Aug 2010 10:47:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A9E63A6A9F for ; Wed, 11 Aug 2010 10:47:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OjFLi-0009gs-Fq for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Wed, 11 Aug 2010 17:44:22 +0000 Received: from [64.102.122.149] (helo=rtp-iport-2.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OjFLg-0009gZ-8K for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 11 Aug 2010 17:44:20 +0000 Authentication-Results: rtp-iport-2.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AvsEAHp+YkxAZnwN/2dsb2JhbACgLHGhX5s5hToEiVA X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.55,354,1278288000"; d="scan'208";a="146530420" Received: from rtp-core-2.cisco.com ([64.102.124.13]) by rtp-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 11 Aug 2010 17:44:19 +0000 Received: from [10.0.0.8] (ams3-vpn-dhcp6343.cisco.com [10.61.88.198]) by rtp-core-2.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o7BHiI3o023214 for ; Wed, 11 Aug 2010 17:44:18 GMT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1081) Subject: Re: I-D Action:draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-cpe-router-07.txt From: Ole Troan In-Reply-To: <20100811170002.5E5A13A6A74@core3.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 19:44:17 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <5E06CE9E-7EBC-48D1-A576-D3F5C3E47476@cisco.com> References: <20100811170002.5E5A13A6A74@core3.amsl.com> To: IPv6 v6ops X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1081) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: hi, this is an update with changes asked for by the security directorate = review, the initial feedback from dhc WG, as well as W-6 and L-16 = discussed here. cheers, Ole On Aug 11, 2010, at 19:00 , Internet-Drafts@ietf.org wrote: > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts = directories. > This draft is a work item of the IPv6 Operations Working Group of the = IETF. >=20 >=20 > Title : Basic Requirements for IPv6 Customer Edge = Routers > Author(s) : H. Singh, et al. > Filename : draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-cpe-router-07.txt > Pages : 16 > Date : 2010-08-11 >=20 > This document specifies requirements for an IPv6 Customer Edge (CE) > router. Specifically, the current version of this document focuses > on the basic provisioning of an IPv6 CE router and the provisioning > of IPv6 hosts attached to it. >=20 > A URL for this Internet-Draft is: > = http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-cpe-router-07.tx= t >=20 > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ >=20 > Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader > implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the > Internet-Draft. > From uroaovok6648@comcast.net Wed Aug 11 23:37:58 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BA203A6830 for ; Wed, 11 Aug 2010 23:37:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -24.807 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-24.807 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, J_CHICKENPOX_32=0.6, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_SBL=20, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DzmoLlgOwZpZ for ; Wed, 11 Aug 2010 23:37:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from comcast.net (c-67-169-154-61.hsd1.ca.comcast.net [67.169.154.61]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5697A3A68C0 for ; Wed, 11 Aug 2010 23:37:57 -0700 (PDT) From: To: v6ops-archive@ietf.org Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 23:38:34 -0700 Subject: Are you swinging for the home run Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-Id: <20100812063757.5697A3A68C0@core3.amsl.com> Longer pen1le length equals greater pleasure, do not miss out http://www.hoursax.ru/ Barsi is situated 37 KM from saharanpur to gangoh to deoband road. Throughout the early to mid 20th century many new estates were built in areas such as Craigmillar, Niddrie, Pilton, Muirhouse, Piershill and Sighthill, linked to slum clearances in the Old Town. The Jewish community began to settle and flourish in Poland during this era (see History of the Jews in Poland). A backstory that explains the circumstances by which the character acquired his or her abilities as well as his or her motivation for becoming a superhero. After 1820, immigration gradually increased. Global Significance of Selected U. The monopoly was generated by formal meetings of the local management of coal companies agreeing to fix a minimum price for sale at dock. With the DV and ML axes shifting correspondingly. From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Aug 12 09:36:28 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23C2E3A6805 for ; Thu, 12 Aug 2010 09:36:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -100.857 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-100.857 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.362, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id l20mdRof+UW4 for ; Thu, 12 Aug 2010 09:36:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40DCB3A67F8 for ; Thu, 12 Aug 2010 09:36:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OjagM-000PWB-74 for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Thu, 12 Aug 2010 16:31:06 +0000 Received: from [209.85.216.173] (helo=mail-qy0-f173.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OjagI-000PVl-VT for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 12 Aug 2010 16:31:03 +0000 Received: by qyk33 with SMTP id 33so2010646qyk.11 for ; Thu, 12 Aug 2010 09:30:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:received:in-reply-to :references:date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=ef3MZDJFrIYqKoZdZ4hl2QRlmS5YjzpTV85oKR7vb30=; b=CuW2+JmFIdgVg6B8+EW/eKxGlTZtW/ZpGpDQ3KqElSMoDlKzwzDs4eKDUe/xNjY0wk 2TRtO/uVpYapBNKyXeGOtNmLjBTGnvmMw/UtoTfdDdpMiA9mwdzZoR3MzZC/YOBwXo5q QMH60d6MACTN4WBBwd4xwQpScJvxdUj6hby+E= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; b=jW/fumrl+Ph+8QHGt5G5fEOlYtLXYL0m04QZVHrKt9PnmjlByQTsdSmpdHcf5QZktg PFBsZPrI0TtVKVDovuUNIHN1YqjSZ5gceyxlAwNaBIptJslMYygRXeJurm9pB9kZAKXi zat/PndVbtt1MUKp9IKSotsfkLHr2RY0WodNY= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.229.184.13 with SMTP id ci13mr315867qcb.142.1281630658632; Thu, 12 Aug 2010 09:30:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.229.221.75 with HTTP; Thu, 12 Aug 2010 09:30:57 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <392017B9-C173-4A53-99E7-6FFF8BB24FEB@cisco.com> References: <392017B9-C173-4A53-99E7-6FFF8BB24FEB@cisco.com> Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 18:30:57 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: draft-gundavelli-v6ops-l2-unicast WGLC From: Jean-Michel Combes To: Fred Baker Cc: IPv6 Operations , 6man Mailing List , Kurt Erik Lindqvist Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: Hi, I support the adoption of this document as WG draft. The described solution is used in the proposal "Duplicate Address Detection Proxy" (http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-costa-6man-dad-proxy-00) to avoid multicasted messages (i.e. flooding) in a VLAN. Best regards. JMC. 2010/7/31 Fred Baker : > This is to initiate a two week working group last call of > draft-gundavelli-v6ops-l2-unicast. Please read it now. If you find nits > (spelling errors, minor suggested wording changes, etc), comment to the > authors; if you find greater issues, such as disagreeing with a statement or > finding additional issues that need to be addressed, please post your > comments to the combined lists. > We are looking specifically for comments on the importance of the document > as well as its content. If you have read the document and believe it to be > of operational utility, that is also an important comment to make. > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > From kevin.mnich@sckans.edu Thu Aug 12 10:17:43 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6485C3A698C for ; Thu, 12 Aug 2010 10:17:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.398 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.398 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=1.396] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id U+KMk0tXazmy for ; Thu, 12 Aug 2010 10:17:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail2.sckans.edu (mail2.sckans.edu [64.218.16.69]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E681C3A6359 for ; Thu, 12 Aug 2010 10:17:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from server4.sckans.edu (server4.sc.sckans.edu [10.10.0.22]) by mail2.sckans.edu (Spam & Virus Firewall) with SMTP id 8E8731CFB28; Thu, 12 Aug 2010 09:54:11 -0500 (CDT) Received: from server4.sckans.edu (server4.sc.sckans.edu [10.10.0.22]) by mail2.sckans.edu with SMTP id a7gEZ0IKYIeEp2Tl; Thu, 12 Aug 2010 09:54:11 -0500 (CDT) Received: from server5.sckans.edu ([10.10.0.23]) by server4.sckans.edu with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Thu, 12 Aug 2010 09:14:22 -0500 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01CB3A25.34E3496C" Subject: Dear Brethren. Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 08:49:38 -0500 Message-ID: <04D2403BBE1EAB49BFEC81E48ADA5372034FD3BD@server5.sc.sckans.edu> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Dear Brethren. thread-index: Acs6JTSne3FMbDBdQGKqiL2MK/axFw== From: "Kevin Mnich" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 12 Aug 2010 14:14:22.0305 (UTC) FILETIME=[A9433D10:01CB3A28] To: undisclosed-recipients:; This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01CB3A25.34E3496C Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Although, I am not comfortable discussing the content of my mail on the = internet owing to lots of unsolicited/Spam mails on the net these days. Anyway my message is that I have made up my mind to will my late = Husband's funds=20 to you so that you can use it for charity duties and good work to = humanity=20 in your country. The amount is 4million Dollars. Please get back to me = on my personal and secured email address for further information.=20 My secured email is: christinekevinmnich@gmail.com=20 God bless you. Mrs. Christine kevin mnich christinekevinmnich@gmail.com=20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01CB3A25.34E3496C Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A=
Although, I am not = comfortable discussing the content of my mail on the internet
owing = to lots of unsolicited/Spam mails on the net these days.
Anyway my = message is that I have made up my mind to will my late Husband's funds =
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------_=_NextPart_001_01CB3A25.34E3496C-- From nyzenatil8757@comcast.net Thu Aug 12 14:25:25 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CEA9B3A6A13 for ; Thu, 12 Aug 2010 14:25:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -68.86 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-68.86 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, URIBL_SBL=20, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 79xFpN4yIOkj for ; Thu, 12 Aug 2010 14:25:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from comcast.net (c-75-66-216-124.hsd1.tn.comcast.net [75.66.216.124]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C65C13A69FE for ; Thu, 12 Aug 2010 14:25:24 -0700 (PDT) From: To: v6ops-archive@ietf.org Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 16:26:00 -0500 Subject: Give better action with your tool Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-Id: <20100812212524.C65C13A69FE@core3.amsl.com> My doctor cannot help asking me how I grew so big http://www.objectemotion.ru/ The North Carolina General Assembly is the state legislature. Piezoelectric and dielectric devices for frequency control and selection. By protecting the places where animals live, human interference is limited. The Norwegian Nobel Committee based in Oslo confers the prize for peace. Type specimens are theoretically even allowed to be aberrant or deformed individuals or color variations, though this is rarely chosen to be the case, as it makes it hard to determine to which population the individual belonged. For all the riches he had acquired, Anthony van Dyck left little property, having spent everything on living magnificently, more like a prince than a painter. Development Report 2009 - HDI rankings - UNO. Used as an air bridge between the UK and the Falkland Islands. From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Aug 13 15:31:53 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 090BB3A69AD for ; Fri, 13 Aug 2010 15:31:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -109.192 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-109.192 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.697, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, RDNS_NONE=0.1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JsyoyqQ6KUKl for ; Fri, 13 Aug 2010 15:31:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B731E3A69B2 for ; Fri, 13 Aug 2010 15:31:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ok2h8-000Hbh-UA for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Fri, 13 Aug 2010 22:25:46 +0000 Received: from [171.71.176.117] (helo=sj-iport-6.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ok2h4-000Haw-H5 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 13 Aug 2010 22:25:43 +0000 Authentication-Results: sj-iport-6.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Av0EAFZjZUyrR7Ht/2dsb2JhbACDFZ0ocaQIiVKRdIEmgV0IBQaBMXMEhC2FMg X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.55,365,1278288000"; d="scan'208";a="573207200" Received: from sj-core-1.cisco.com ([171.71.177.237]) by sj-iport-6.cisco.com with ESMTP; 13 Aug 2010 22:25:41 +0000 Received: from stealth-10-32-244-220.cisco.com (stealth-10-32-244-220.cisco.com [10.32.244.220]) by sj-core-1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o7DMPYqi009995 for ; Fri, 13 Aug 2010 22:25:36 GMT Received: from [127.0.0.1] by stealth-10-32-244-220.cisco.com (PGP Universal service); Fri, 13 Aug 2010 15:25:41 -0700 X-PGP-Universal: processed; by stealth-10-32-244-220.cisco.com on Fri, 13 Aug 2010 15:25:41 -0700 From: Fred Baker Subject: Fwd: Subject: 79th IETF - Working Group/BOF Scheduling Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 15:25:27 -0700 References: <20100813193211.75FE63A6836@core3.amsl.com> To: IPv6 Operations Message-Id: <727D61D1-0895-4E95-801E-6FCDBC050F73@cisco.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1081) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1081) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: FYI. I have requested two meetings of two hours (or more) in length at = IETF 79. Expect one of them to be on Friday - that appears to be the = trend. Important dates follow. Begin forwarded message: > From: IETF Agenda > Date: August 13, 2010 12:32:11 PM PDT > To: Working Group Chairs > Cc: irsg@isi.edu > Subject: Subject: 79th IETF - Working Group/BOF Scheduling=20 >=20 > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > 79th IETF =CB=86 Beijing, China > Meeting Dates: November 7-12, 2010 > Host: Tsinghua University > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF meetings start Monday morning and run through Friday = mid-afternoon > (15:15). >=20 > We are accepting scheduling requests for all Working Groups and BOFs > starting today. The milestones and deadlines for scheduling-related > activities are as follows: >=20 > NOTE: cutoff dates are subject to change. >=20 > =EF=A3=BF 2010-09-13 (Monday): Cutoff date for BOF proposal requests = to Area > Directors at 17:00 PDT (24:00 UTC). To request a BOF, please see > instructions on Requesting a BOF.=20 > =EF=A3=BF 2010-09-27 (Monday): Cutoff date for requests to schedule = Working Group > meetings at 17:00 PDT (24:00 UTC). To request a Working Group session, = use > the IETF Meeting Session Request Tool.=20 > =EF=A3=BF 2010-09-27 (Monday): Cutoff date for Area Directors to = approve BOFs at > 17:00 PDT (24:00 UTC).=20 > =EF=A3=BF 2010-10-06 (Wednesday): Preliminary agenda published for = comment.=20 > =EF=A3=BF 2010-10-11 (Monday): Cutoff date for requests to reschedule = Working > Group and BOF meetings 17:00 PDT (24:00 UTC).=20 > =EF=A3=BF 2010-10-11 (Monday): Working Group Chair approval for = initial document > (Version -00) submissions appreciated by 17:00 PDT (24:00 UTC).=20 > =EF=A3=BF 2010-10-15 (Friday): Final agenda to be published.=20 > =EF=A3=BF 2010-10-27 (Wednesday): Draft Working Group agendas due by = 17:00 PDT > (24:00 UTC), upload using IETF Meeting Materials Management Tool.=20 > =EF=A3=BF 2010-11-01 (Monday): Revised Working Group agendas due by = 17:00 PST > (01:00 Tuesday, November 03 UTC), upload using IETF Meeting Materials > Management Tool. >=20 > Submitting Requests for Working Group and BOF Sessions >=20 > Please submit requests to schedule your Working Group sessions using = the > "IETF Meeting Session Request Tool," a Web-based tool for submitting = all > of the information that the Secretariat requires to schedule your > sessions. >=20 > The URL for the tool is: >=20 > https://datatracker.ietf.org/cgi-bin/wg/wg_session_requester.cgi >=20 > Instructions for using the tool are available at: >=20 > http://www.ietf.org/instructions/session_request_tool_instruction.html >=20 > Please send requests to schedule your BOF sessions to agenda@ietf.org.=20= > Please include the acronym of your BOF in the subject line of the = message, > and include all of the information specified in item (4) of = "Requesting > Meeting Sessions at IETF Meetings" in the body. (This document is > included below.) >=20 > Submitting Session Agendas >=20 > For the convenience of meeting attendees, we ask that you submit the > agendas for your Working Group sessions as early as possible. Draft > Working Group agendas are due Wednesday, October 27 by 17:00 PT (24:00 > UTC). Revised Working Group agendas are due no later than Monday, > November 1 at 17:00 PT (24:00 UTC). The proposed agenda for a BOF = session > should be submitted along with your request for a session. Please be = sure > to copy your Area Director on that message. >=20 > Please submit the agendas for your Working Group sessions using the = "IETF > Meeting Materials Management Tool," a Web-based tool for making your > meeting agenda, minutes, and presentation slides available to the > community before, during, and after an IETF meeting. If you are a BOF > chair, then you may use the tool to submit a revised agenda as well as > other materials for your BOF once the BOF has been approved. >=20 > The URL for the tool is: >=20 > https://datatracker.ietf.org/cgi-bin/wg/wg_proceedings.cgi >=20 > Additional information about this tool is available at: >=20 > http://www.ietf.org/instructions/meeting_materials_tool.html >=20 > Agendas submitted via the tool will be available to the public on the > "IETF Meeting Materials" Web page as soon as they are submitted. >=20 > The URL for the "IETF 79 Meeting Materials" Web page is: >=20 > = https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/meeting_materials.cgi?meeting_num=3D79= >=20 > If you are a Working Group chair, then you already have accounts on = the > "IETF Meeting Session Request Tool" and the "IETF Meeting Materials > Management Tool." The same User ID and password will work for both = tools. > If you are a BOF chair who is not also a Working Group chair, then = you > will be given an account on the "IETF Meeting Materials Management = Tool" > when your BOF has been approved. If you require assistance in using > either tool, or wish to report a bug, then please send a message to: > ietf-action@ietf.org. > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > For your convenience, comprehensive information on requesting meeting > sessions at IETF 79 is presented below: >=20 > 1. Requests to schedule Working Group sessions should be submitted = using > the "IETF Meeting Session Request Tool," a Web-based tool for = submitting > all of the information required by the Secretariat to schedule your > sessions. The URL for the tool is: >=20 > https://datatracker.ietf.org/cgi-bin/wg/wg_session_requester.cgi >=20 > Instructions for using the tool are available at: >=20 > http://www.ietf.org/instructions/session_request_tool_instruction.html >=20 > If you require an account on this tool, or assistance in using it, = then > please send a message to ietf-action@ietf.org. If you are unable to = use > the tool, then you may send your request via e-mail to = agenda@ietf.org, > with a copy to the appropriate Area Director(s). >=20 > Requests to schedule BOF sessions must be sent to agenda@ietf.org with = a > copy to the appropriate Area Director(s). >=20 > When submitting a Working Group or BOF session request by e-mail, = please > include the Working Group or BOF acronym in the Subject line. >=20 > 2. BOFs will NOT be scheduled unless the Area Director(s) approved > request is accompanied by a BOF'S FULL NAME AND ACRONYM, AREA, = CHAIR(S) > NAME(S) (given together with e-mail address(es)), AN AGENDA AND FULL > DESCRIPTION, and the information requested in (4) below. (Please read = the > BOF Procedure at: http://www.ietf.org/ietf/1bof-procedures.txt before > requesting a session for a BOF.) >=20 > 3. A Working Group may request either one or two sessions. If your > Working Group requires more than two sessions, then your request must = be > approved by an Area Director. Additional sessions will be assigned, = based > on availability, after Friday, October 11, 2010 at 17:00 PT (24:00 = UTC), > the cut-off date for requests to reschedule a session. >=20 > 4. You MUST provide the following information before a Working Group = or > BOF session will be scheduled: >=20 > a. Working Group or BOF full name with acronym in brackets:=20 >=20 > b. AREA under which Working Group or BOF appears: >=20 > c. CONFLICTS you wish to avoid, please be as specific as possible: >=20 > d. Expected Attendance: >=20 > e. Special requests: >=20 > f. Number of sessions: >=20 > g. Length of session:=20 > - 1 hour=20 > - 1 1/2 hours > - 2 hours=20 > - 2 1/2 hours >=20 > For more information on scheduling Working Group and BOF sessions, = please > refer to RFC 2418 (BCP 25), "IETF Working Group Guidelines and = Procedures" > (http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2418.txt). > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > For your convenience please find here a list of the IETF Area = Directors > with their e-mail addresses: >=20 > IETF Chair=20 > Russ Housley >=20 > Applications Area (app) > Alexey Melnikov > Peter Saint-Andre =20 >=20 > Internet Area (int)=20 > Jari Arkko > Ralph Droms =20 >=20 > Operations & Management Area (ops)=20 > Ronald Bonica > Dan Romascanu >=20 > Real-time Applications and Infrastructure Area (rai) > Gonzalo Camarillo > Robert Sparks =20 >=20 > Routing Area (rtg)=20 > Stewart Bryant > Adrian Farrel =20 >=20 > Security Area (sec)=20 > Tim Polk > Sean Turner =20 >=20 > Transport Area (tsv)=20 > Lars Eggert > David Harrington =20 > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > 78th IETF Meeting Attendance Number > We currently do not have our shipment back from Maastricht so we = will be > providing the numbers on a separate email. From ysasih5203@comcast.net Fri Aug 13 15:50:12 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22C853A6980 for ; Fri, 13 Aug 2010 15:50:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -78.811 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-78.811 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_UNI=0.591, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8A191HQi3E8o for ; Fri, 13 Aug 2010 15:50:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from comcast.net (c-24-8-130-142.hsd1.co.comcast.net [24.8.130.142]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D51C3A6995 for ; Fri, 13 Aug 2010 15:50:07 -0700 (PDT) From: Treat@core3.amsl.com, ED@core3.amsl.com, using Pfizer meds To: v6ops-archive@ietf.org Subject: Dear v6ops-archive, your 81% OFF coupon is here. Assembly Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 16:50:44 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-Id: <20100813225007.1D51C3A6995@core3.amsl.com> regularized and the KA For Newsletter
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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Aug 13 16:55:53 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 740B13A6876 for ; Fri, 13 Aug 2010 16:55:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.343 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.343 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.848, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9eaVMUPVFW4K for ; Fri, 13 Aug 2010 16:55:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F1013A67B3 for ; Fri, 13 Aug 2010 16:55:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ok43F-0000Ut-F4 for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Fri, 13 Aug 2010 23:52:41 +0000 Received: from [64.102.122.149] (helo=rtp-iport-2.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ok43C-0000U5-Q9 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 13 Aug 2010 23:52:39 +0000 Authentication-Results: rtp-iport-2.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AvsEADJ4ZUytJV2d/2dsb2JhbACgPnGjUptEhToEhC2IGA X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.55,366,1278288000"; d="scan'208";a="147590637" Received: from rcdn-core-6.cisco.com ([173.37.93.157]) by rtp-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 13 Aug 2010 23:52:25 +0000 Received: from xbh-rcd-202.cisco.com (xbh-rcd-202.cisco.com [72.163.62.201]) by rcdn-core-6.cisco.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o7DNqPmr030090; Fri, 13 Aug 2010 23:52:25 GMT Received: from xmb-rcd-114.cisco.com ([72.163.62.156]) by xbh-rcd-202.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Fri, 13 Aug 2010 18:52:25 -0500 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: draft-gundavelli-v6ops-l2-unicast WGLC Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 18:52:23 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: draft-gundavelli-v6ops-l2-unicast WGLC Thread-Index: Acsybfq0w7OBP1HeRKOhabbfWPDaNgAYDchQAhxaIuA= References: <35EC7A29-8C16-4632-84C8-95988F49E92C@cisco.com> From: "Hemant Singh (shemant)" To: "Hemant Singh (shemant)" , "Fred Baker (fred)" , "Wes Beebee (wbeebee)" , "Sri Gundavelli (sgundave)" Cc: "IPv6 Operations" , "6man Mailing List" , "Kurt Erik Lindqvist" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 13 Aug 2010 23:52:25.0031 (UTC) FILETIME=[9430FD70:01CB3B42] Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: I have made my points for pitfalls related to the rules of this document. However, since the new rules in this document have a language of SHOULD NOT drop for receive and MAY for transmit, I don't see any MUST language in the rules. The only MUST in the rules section is a MUST to apply such additional considerations where the actual considerations have no MUST. Thus if my hardware chooses to ignore the receive and transmit rules of this document and comply to RFC 2464, my hardware does not violate this document. Therefore, I support this document. However, before we forward this document to the IESG, could we please make some minor changes to text. One change is suggested below. OLD TEXT [An IPv6 receiver node SHOULD NOT drop a received IPv6 multicast message containing a multicast destination address in the IPv6 header, but with a unicast destination address in the link-layer header, withstanding all other validity considerations as specified in the relevant IPv6 standards specifications. ] NEW TEXT [An IPv6 receiver node SHOULD NOT drop a received IPv6 multicast message containing a multicast destination address in the IPv6 header, but with a unicast destination address in the link-layer header.] The reason is the use of word "relevant" in old text which appears loose to me because folks may question, well, which specific IPv6 standards specifications and the discussion protracts. I have other minor text changes to propose that I couldn't get to today. I hope to get to the other suggestions early next week. Hemant From ymapakauli9199@comcast.net Fri Aug 13 20:35:48 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA3453A683E for ; Fri, 13 Aug 2010 20:35:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -71.342 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-71.342 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, URIBL_SBL=20, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5DB+YYG-ipQS for ; Fri, 13 Aug 2010 20:35:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from comcast.net (97-116-46-241.mpls.qwest.net [97.116.46.241]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9505C3A6818 for ; Fri, 13 Aug 2010 20:35:47 -0700 (PDT) From: To: v6ops-archive@ietf.org Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2010 22:36:09 -0500 Subject: Miley Cyrus uncensored photos on Vanity Fair Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-Id: <20100814033547.9505C3A6818@core3.amsl.com> Have you ever reached as far as her cervix? If you haven't, make it happen with us. http://www.propertypal.ru/ In 2006 Smorgon took over the presidency of the Carlton Football Club. Recombinant DNA is a man-made DNA sequence that has been assembled from other DNA sequences. GFA Tournament played in Gibraltar, with the host, Isle of Man and Isle of Wight in 2004. Ten years later, in 1568, the Diet extended this freedom, declaring that "It is not allowed to anybody to intimidate anybody with captivity or expelling for his religion". While Denver is located on the Great Plains, the weather of the city and surrounding area is heavily influenced by the proximity of the Rocky Mountains to the west. Farentino was arrested in Vancouver, British Columbia, on July 23, 1991, after the Royal Canadian Mounted Police intercepted a package containing 3. Higher Education Statistics Agency online statistics. Arjuna retaliates and injures Dhritivarman but does not kill him, as per orders of Maharaj Yudhishther. From ejoqat8846@comcast.net Sat Aug 14 09:09:37 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D1153A69A4 for ; Sat, 14 Aug 2010 09:09:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.741 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.741 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_SBL=20, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id w4kJBXy8Irik for ; Sat, 14 Aug 2010 09:09:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from comcast.net (c-75-74-193-5.hsd1.fl.comcast.net [75.74.193.5]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 448233A6994 for ; Sat, 14 Aug 2010 09:09:36 -0700 (PDT) From: To: v6ops-archive@ietf.org Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2010 12:10:13 -0400 Subject: Make her come every single time Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-Id: <20100814160936.448233A6994@core3.amsl.com> Improve your circulation, increase your size easily with tried and tested herbs http://www.writerzero.ru/ The Choctaw explained that the Bald Eagle, who has direct contact with the upper world of the sun, is a symbol of peace. 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From v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org Sun Aug 15 04:22:53 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD8523A685E for ; Sun, 15 Aug 2010 04:22:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Quarantine-ID: <5hLOaz3kLb8B> X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char AE hex): Subject: ...ve@lists.ietf.org VIAGRA \256 Official Selle[...] X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -75.102 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-75.102 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, DRUGS_ERECTILE=1, DRUG_ED_CAPS=0.322, FB_GET_MEDS=2.75, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2=4.395, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SUBJECT_NEEDS_ENCODING=0.001, TVD_QUAL_MEDS=3.568, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.931, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5hLOaz3kLb8B for ; Sun, 15 Aug 2010 04:22:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 44-85-179-94.pool.ukrtel.net (44-85-179-94.pool.ukrtel.net [94.179.85.44]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96FD13A689E for ; Sun, 15 Aug 2010 04:22:49 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <20100815112321.2171.qmail@44-85-179-94.pool.ukrtel.net> To: v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org VIAGRA ® Official Seller -16% From: v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2010 04:22:49 -0700 (PDT) Dear v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org Get ready to make her happy. 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From v6ops-archive@megatron.ietf.org Sun Aug 15 04:27:56 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 166743A6851 for ; Sun, 15 Aug 2010 04:27:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char AE hex): Subject: ...megatron.ietf.org VIAGRA \256 Official Selle[...] X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -28.442 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-28.442 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=46.660, BAYES_99=3.5, DRUGS_ERECTILE=1, DRUG_ED_CAPS=0.322, FB_GET_MEDS=2.75, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2=4.395, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SUBJECT_NEEDS_ENCODING=0.001, TVD_QUAL_MEDS=3.568, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.931, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VXjU2Y04p7QA for ; Sun, 15 Aug 2010 04:27:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 44-85-179-94.pool.ukrtel.net (44-85-179-94.pool.ukrtel.net [94.179.85.44]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9CED3A684D for ; Sun, 15 Aug 2010 04:27:54 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <20100815112826.2024.qmail@44-85-179-94.pool.ukrtel.net> To: v6ops-archive@megatron.ietf.org Subject: v6ops-archive@megatron.ietf.org VIAGRA ® Official Seller -16% From: v6ops-archive@megatron.ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2010 04:27:54 -0700 (PDT) Dear v6ops-archive@megatron.ietf.org Get ready to make her happy. 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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Sun Aug 15 11:07:56 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CCAF3A682D for ; Sun, 15 Aug 2010 11:07:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -108.455 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-108.455 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.418, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, RDNS_NONE=0.1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id E9mPonMeJ-Yh for ; Sun, 15 Aug 2010 11:07:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CBC463A6403 for ; Sun, 15 Aug 2010 11:07:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OkhVT-000O1v-86 for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Sun, 15 Aug 2010 18:00:27 +0000 Received: from [171.68.10.87] (helo=sj-iport-5.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OkhVN-000Nkz-MG for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Sun, 15 Aug 2010 18:00:22 +0000 Authentication-Results: sj-iport-5.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.55,372,1278288000"; d="scan'208,217";a="240527570" Received: from sj-core-5.cisco.com ([171.71.177.238]) by sj-iport-5.cisco.com with ESMTP; 15 Aug 2010 18:00:20 +0000 Received: from stealth-10-32-244-220.cisco.com (stealth-10-32-244-220.cisco.com [10.32.244.220]) by sj-core-5.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o7FI0C3U019957; Sun, 15 Aug 2010 18:00:15 GMT Received: from [127.0.0.1] by stealth-10-32-244-220.cisco.com (PGP Universal service); Sun, 15 Aug 2010 11:00:20 -0700 X-PGP-Universal: processed; by stealth-10-32-244-220.cisco.com on Sun, 15 Aug 2010 11:00:20 -0700 Subject: draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1081) From: Fred Baker Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2010 11:00:04 -0700 Cc: kurtis@kurtis.pp.se, rbonica@juniper.net Message-Id: <018544C5-8D1E-412A-B6E4-F12623E66366@cisco.com> To: v6ops@ops.ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1081) Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: This is to initiate a two week working = group last call of 
We are = looking specifically for comments on the importance of the document as = well as its content. If you have read the document and believe it to be = of operational utility, that is also an important comment to = make.
= From isusu3534@comcast.net Mon Aug 16 00:23:17 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2B493A6811 for ; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 00:23:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -45.741 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-45.741 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_SBL=20, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lnYv4T7sgVG2 for ; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 00:23:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from comcast.net (c-98-231-39-208.hsd1.fl.comcast.net [98.231.39.208]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA3E73A6819 for ; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 00:23:16 -0700 (PDT) From: To: v6ops-archive@ietf.org Reply-To: Subject: Achieve massive length Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 03:23:53 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-Id: <20100816072316.EA3E73A6819@core3.amsl.com> Your erected size will shock everyone, including yourself http://www.riotprod.ru/ From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Aug 16 01:29:19 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CB993A680C for ; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 01:29:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.547 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.547 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.052, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xA+c6Q6RhzM2 for ; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 01:29:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4AC9A3A687F for ; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 01:29:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OkuzL-0007TB-CI for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 08:24:11 +0000 Received: from [209.85.213.194] (helo=mail-yx0-f194.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OkuzI-0007Sn-Jo for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 08:24:08 +0000 Received: by yxj4 with SMTP id 4so599013yxj.5 for ; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 01:24:06 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:sender:message-id:date:from :user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:x-enigmail-version:openpgp :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=QLhq/qvYE2XtyrKb54JT68IhwxcL/bWGlAYY0VCFO7Q=; b=XdedKQuxxqeuX8bvnv35IVgt8ZGutePbgrmgUvHMjpLoMsVppd3MCEtJcYlOLrkP2e Jf0Kr+i0pYiQIyEUGjfp8H4naQMD62PnyDQTDIoyULcUA2jELL+whQyj+s0uArwWO5vO L5WtlSh3GaaqMhfoynnAOvbn29yllxpUuPpKc= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=sender:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject :x-enigmail-version:openpgp:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=Vekh2g7eYKh3t0METWBvs76+BGzZR/uiWBnOSIKwN0cXr3NPDSnm4UiHhRBwOPVyyJ S5bQZIx5PcbqchK7/A3tc6e0B/oYddHDQfqGbufuTMJkHjPpJO90JWNrV6LMETSK9x3z 1gYmWneuDAeof2g7Xv4mCxNn2lvY5hDkgMpDk= Received: by 10.100.122.15 with SMTP id u15mr5404749anc.98.1281947045968; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 01:24:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.2.3] ([190.245.181.90]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id l6sm9952087ang.38.2010.08.16.01.24.02 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Mon, 16 Aug 2010 01:24:05 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4C68F1E1.2090003@gont.com.ar> Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 05:08:01 -0300 From: Fernando Gont User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.24 (Windows/20100228) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "ipv6@ietf.org" CC: "v6ops@ops.ietf.org" Subject: ping-pong phenomenon with p2p links & /127 prefixes X-Enigmail-Version: 0.96.0 OpenPGP: id=D076FFF1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: Folks, draft-ietf-ipngwg-p2p-pingpong-00.txt proposes a solution to the ping-pong problem with point-to-point links, which IMHO is elegant: > Check the incoming/outgoing interface of the packet. If the > interface is the same, is a point-to-point interface and the > destination address on the packet seems to be on-link (in terms of > Neighbor Discovery) on the point-to-point interface, the forwarding > router SHOULD NOT forward the packet. Also, in this case, the router > SHOULD NOT generate ICMPv6 redirect message even if the incoming > packet meets conditions in RFC2461 section 8.2. The router SHOULD > generate an ICMPv6 error message instead, with the type field being 1 > (destination unreachable), and the code field being 3 (address > unreachable). Then incorporated into RFC 4443 as follows: > One specific case in which a Destination Unreachable message is sent > with a code 3 is in response to a packet received by a router from a > point-to-point link, destined to an address within a subnet assigned > to that same link (other than one of the receiving router's own > addresses). In such a case, the packet MUST NOT be forwarded back > onto the arrival link. However, this fix allegedly has big performance implications on routers. Can anybody comment on this "claim"? P.S.: This fix doesn't prevent the use of /127s (it's orthogonal), but I'm wondering about the reasons for which this fix is not the "first line of defense" for *this* (i.e., ping-pong) vulnerability. -- yes, the Kohno et al I-D mentions other (additional) reasons for using /127 prefixes o p2p links. Thanks! Kind regards, -- Fernando Gont e-mail: fernando@gont.com.ar || fgont@acm.org PGP Fingerprint: 7809 84F5 322E 45C7 F1C9 3945 96EE A9EF D076 FFF1 From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Aug 16 01:59:41 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 820113A697D for ; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 01:59:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.395 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.395 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.205, BAYES_00=-2.599, NO_RELAYS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id c052h94iib34 for ; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 01:59:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 926823A6960 for ; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 01:59:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OkvW3-000CAH-06 for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 08:57:59 +0000 Received: from [2001:788:2:117::203] (helo=abaddon.unfix.org) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OkvW0-000C9g-8j for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 08:57:56 +0000 Received: from [IPv6:2001:1620:f42:99:216:cfff:fe00:e7d0] (spaghetti.ch.unfix.org [IPv6:2001:1620:f42:99:216:cfff:fe00:e7d0]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: jeroen) by abaddon.unfix.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4A6EF215D8; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 10:57:37 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=unfix.org; s=DKIM2009; t=1281949073; bh=ZCdYS6egTgryy2tFGn2dxJQEb7or6hCu3UBukbggFx0=; h=Message-ID:Date:From:MIME-Version:To:CC:Subject:References: In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=cAQKMcXp+2RgYf9rCrPt43pJYyyDv0tnxyiCTsoEUbnts0sreKDKbkbYHyu2nzg7G w/EhxhBEzDj8mE+tW6fMH/18C65dv2UErNj55u3IiFK3SLRgDGI4zNNSfKwdhB6fQB j7LzYN8KZ9n2AzXTZcZvub7XfGDQdNkU3rcnYCOrzLNQNqYRLcrnBr2FK4Q8wZJ299 37f/P6XPqFcbrifYb3VUG9+ON6M0narbnNPLcJnesrHZI7hrSiHSaYwHgUZ9VAtb5Q Qx7IcTdStPcJwH1ufi6qNI1aGgXnTYjEVbF6ZpnfSReX4NX+mWP5IrIwW2I8sMq/jE E5E45kP730D0Q== Message-ID: <4C68FD84.80905@unfix.org> Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 10:57:40 +0200 From: Jeroen Massar Organization: Unfix User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.9.2.8) Gecko/20100802 Thunderbird/3.1.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Fernando Gont CC: "ipv6@ietf.org" , "v6ops@ops.ietf.org" Subject: Re: ping-pong phenomenon with p2p links & /127 prefixes References: <4C68F1E1.2090003@gont.com.ar> In-Reply-To: <4C68F1E1.2090003@gont.com.ar> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.1.1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: On 2010-08-16 10:08, Fernando Gont wrote: [..] > P.S.: This fix doesn't prevent the use of /127s (it's orthogonal), Unless you configure two /128's pointing to the remote side, which will then thus not be 'on-link for neighbor discovery, the little thing called the subnet anycast address will make sure that a /127 ptp simply does not work, unless you have a platform which disables the subnet anycast address of course. Greets, Jeroen ... who is still wondering why people try to bother with anything not /64, and how many links they need in their networks. If you are going to size them a /127, even out of a /64 then you can do 2^63 = 9.223.372.036.854.775.808 /127's which is a bit insane and you will never need that either as it won't ever fit in any routing table ;) From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Aug 16 02:13:29 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 665C13A6994 for ; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 02:13:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.669 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.669 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.621, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lFS6UIxFTyNm for ; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 02:13:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD7513A698F for ; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 02:13:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Okvk5-000Eot-Rj for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 09:12:29 +0000 Received: from [195.1.209.33] (helo=bizet.nethelp.no) by psg.com with smtp (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Okvk2-000EoT-RD for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 09:12:27 +0000 Received: (qmail 45962 invoked from network); 16 Aug 2010 09:12:24 -0000 Received: from bizet.nethelp.no (HELO localhost) (195.1.209.33) by bizet.nethelp.no with SMTP; 16 Aug 2010 09:12:24 -0000 Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 11:12:24 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <20100816.111224.41652855.sthaug@nethelp.no> To: jeroen@unfix.org Cc: fernando@gont.com.ar, v6ops@ops.ietf.org, ipv6@ietf.org Subject: Re: ping-pong phenomenon with p2p links & /127 prefixes From: sthaug@nethelp.no In-Reply-To: <4C68FD84.80905@unfix.org> References: <4C68F1E1.2090003@gont.com.ar> <4C68FD84.80905@unfix.org> X-Mailer: Mew version 3.3 on Emacs 21.3 / Mule 5.0 (SAKAKI) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: > Unless you configure two /128's pointing to the remote side, which will > then thus not be 'on-link for neighbor discovery, the little thing > called the subnet anycast address will make sure that a /127 ptp simply > does not work, unless you have a platform which disables the subnet > anycast address of course. It would seem disabling the subnet anycast is fairly widespread, then. I have verified the use of /127 on several hardware forwarding platforms from Cisco and Juniper. /127 works just fine, and prevents the ping-pong. [One concrete example where /127 works: Juniper T1600 talking to Cisco CRS-1 on an OC-768/STM-256 link.] Steinar Haug, Nethelp consulting, sthaug@nethelp.no From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Aug 16 02:38:34 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54A063A688B for ; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 02:38:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.477 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.477 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.123, BAYES_00=-2.599, NO_RELAYS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 18fWqXMJdQGY for ; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 02:38:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CBF53A67DB for ; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 02:38:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Okw73-000IPH-QL for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 09:36:13 +0000 Received: from [2001:788:2:117::203] (helo=abaddon.unfix.org) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Okw6x-000ILS-0F for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 09:36:07 +0000 Received: from [IPv6:2001:1620:f42:99:216:cfff:fe00:e7d0] (spaghetti.ch.unfix.org [IPv6:2001:1620:f42:99:216:cfff:fe00:e7d0]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: jeroen) by abaddon.unfix.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A42F321A71; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 11:35:42 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=unfix.org; s=DKIM2009; t=1281951364; bh=eNa0JAHnLp8R37UuL2QBOZWDZTrExVZyx4K+vm6MYsw=; h=Message-ID:Date:From:MIME-Version:To:CC:Subject:References: In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=INftD1eL7AC07ZEFhUCWCpOafWQ1jrvt+nQP8rFyDP1cN0pm8pBDtXvXo3qLWkxGb wSqVmsJJwLJB+p2ZlJbL5NmuFUkCkzcN0ZMV514X4WNWrPrJytd2hgHZpIWG1fHIeC T+tL1idxwgFHbjpFt/SWrXWadSJqMXl4tIgJYNH2ICKPexovxUbF5hshaAmH6fUvP0 gsquzabASQkuC6hwT0oDXV8ZGIxm10E3JLiTALj+3G8x4ZHaKeTuv01xuMHATZk0ns Q/boM5BfXYX3s/UqAA9zkoPyHwyLLTHBBM0GZI+uODyds0VK2OZVv6+hBwSPclzDUj V50sm70QFqijA== Message-ID: <4C690673.1040400@unfix.org> Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 11:35:47 +0200 From: Jeroen Massar Organization: Unfix User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.9.2.8) Gecko/20100802 Thunderbird/3.1.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sthaug@nethelp.no CC: fernando@gont.com.ar, v6ops@ops.ietf.org, ipv6@ietf.org Subject: Re: ping-pong phenomenon with p2p links & /127 prefixes References: <4C68F1E1.2090003@gont.com.ar> <4C68FD84.80905@unfix.org> <20100816.111224.41652855.sthaug@nethelp.no> In-Reply-To: <20100816.111224.41652855.sthaug@nethelp.no> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.1.1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: On 2010-08-16 11:12, sthaug@nethelp.no wrote: >> Unless you configure two /128's pointing to the remote side, which will >> then thus not be 'on-link for neighbor discovery, the little thing >> called the subnet anycast address will make sure that a /127 ptp simply >> does not work, unless you have a platform which disables the subnet >> anycast address of course. > > It would seem disabling the subnet anycast is fairly widespread, then. > I have verified the use of /127 on several hardware forwarding platforms > from Cisco and Juniper. /127 works just fine, and prevents the ping-pong. > > [One concrete example where /127 works: Juniper T1600 talking to Cisco > CRS-1 on an OC-768/STM-256 link.] It is quite wide-spread indeed, and for instance Linux used to do it also until a kernel update in 2003 from 2.4.20 -> 2.4.21 and they finally implemented subnet anycast support(*) and suddenly it all started breaking as for IPng.nl at the time we used /127's and everybody with a Linux endpoint who did an upgrade of their kernels suddenly had a mysterious broken configuration. Thus, do ask Cisco and Juniper and other vendors where this now 'works' if this intentional, or if they might finally comply to the IPv6 specifications one day, as then you might better watch out for this as it will break your network. For the vendors that have it, it might maybe be an idea to have a 'disable subnetanycast' command or similar so that one can explicitly mark a prefix that way. Greets, Jeroen * = http://www.linux-ipv6.org/ml/usagi-users/msg02430.html From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Aug 16 02:41:19 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6AB7E3A6987 for ; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 02:41:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.61 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.61 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.562, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0hvalkdZdRqU for ; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 02:41:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8AC703A697D for ; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 02:41:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OkwBu-000JCR-Vx for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 09:41:15 +0000 Received: from [195.1.209.33] (helo=bizet.nethelp.no) by psg.com with smtp (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OkwBs-000JBh-97 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 09:41:12 +0000 Received: (qmail 53349 invoked from network); 16 Aug 2010 09:41:10 -0000 Received: from bizet.nethelp.no (HELO localhost) (195.1.209.33) by bizet.nethelp.no with SMTP; 16 Aug 2010 09:41:10 -0000 Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 11:41:10 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <20100816.114110.71111142.sthaug@nethelp.no> To: jeroen@unfix.org Cc: fernando@gont.com.ar, v6ops@ops.ietf.org, ipv6@ietf.org Subject: Re: ping-pong phenomenon with p2p links & /127 prefixes From: sthaug@nethelp.no In-Reply-To: <4C690673.1040400@unfix.org> References: <4C68FD84.80905@unfix.org> <20100816.111224.41652855.sthaug@nethelp.no> <4C690673.1040400@unfix.org> X-Mailer: Mew version 3.3 on Emacs 21.3 / Mule 5.0 (SAKAKI) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: > Thus, do ask Cisco and Juniper and other vendors where this now 'works' > if this intentional, or if they might finally comply to the IPv6 > specifications one day, as then you might better watch out for this as > it will break your network. For the vendors that have it, it might maybe > be an idea to have a 'disable subnetanycast' command or similar so that > one can explicitly mark a prefix that way. I have no plans to ask Cisco and Juniper about this. I want /127 to continue working, and couldn't care less about subnet anycast for my core routers. Steinar Haug, Nethelp consulting, sthaug@nethelp.no From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Aug 16 02:44:23 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC9AA3A698B for ; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 02:44:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.512 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.512 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.088, BAYES_00=-2.599, NO_RELAYS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LsrUFAHP8wk8 for ; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 02:44:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C05983A698F for ; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 02:44:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OkwEo-000JoS-RV for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 09:44:14 +0000 Received: from [2001:788:2:117::203] (helo=abaddon.unfix.org) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OkwEm-000Jnx-IE for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 09:44:12 +0000 Received: from [IPv6:2001:1620:f42:99:216:cfff:fe00:e7d0] (spaghetti.ch.unfix.org [IPv6:2001:1620:f42:99:216:cfff:fe00:e7d0]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: jeroen) by abaddon.unfix.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 5B60A20512; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 11:43:50 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=unfix.org; s=DKIM2009; t=1281951850; bh=e9lATKHiN0J1p+mMLUu+Q+ykWtr7kz+eYdZMu/P8jgY=; h=Message-ID:Date:From:MIME-Version:To:CC:Subject:References: In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=dZ1kHYe8936V9P0SQwJEm8E6I6JpaiEUz2M/GX+PuwLhksd9rYnPLcte9xDs3IpAU FoVVGszI6PYL/kW+w40JRb3ZfUoaAISOlXixdRJkhAwC+naYtfsNd6x0UgOxZcBDmE QCymmZN3O9Bp9orXVe2g4Eib3bNuA5cB1vMoZ8Sa2ROAbO6sO572+mJK0nunNv5FfO aRGzXl6FZ43LY1BfrHBENjMpRoDD7vDYyRYqyF/N3J/I0ovSNjCEvrsikFKdf1Q4mG Gilf9z1hLI1TOZKDakkcYNVay/jxyFPxXf2xz2BdfHo7u13PD3wOasHwNqlWrbPhuW ss10hZ/0oETzw== Message-ID: <4C69085A.1040706@unfix.org> Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 11:43:54 +0200 From: Jeroen Massar Organization: Unfix User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.9.2.8) Gecko/20100802 Thunderbird/3.1.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sthaug@nethelp.no CC: fernando@gont.com.ar, v6ops@ops.ietf.org, ipv6@ietf.org Subject: Re: ping-pong phenomenon with p2p links & /127 prefixes References: <4C68FD84.80905@unfix.org> <20100816.111224.41652855.sthaug@nethelp.no> <4C690673.1040400@unfix.org> <20100816.114110.71111142.sthaug@nethelp.no> In-Reply-To: <20100816.114110.71111142.sthaug@nethelp.no> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.1.1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: On 2010-08-16 11:41, sthaug@nethelp.no wrote: >> Thus, do ask Cisco and Juniper and other vendors where this now 'works' >> if this intentional, or if they might finally comply to the IPv6 >> specifications one day, as then you might better watch out for this as >> it will break your network. For the vendors that have it, it might maybe >> be an idea to have a 'disable subnetanycast' command or similar so that >> one can explicitly mark a prefix that way. > > I have no plans to ask Cisco and Juniper about this. I want /127 to > continue working, and couldn't care less about subnet anycast for my > core routers. I think you miss my point: they might finally comply with the specs one day (if you ask or not, others might) and you will have forgotten about this little subtle problem and upgrade your routers and voila your network is broken. If I where you, or anybody else who is using this 'feature' I would be wary of it and make a big big note for the test-lab to test this before shoving new versions to the live network. Greets, Jeroen From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Aug 16 02:46:28 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57E353A69A1 for ; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 02:46:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.464 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.464 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.135, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Vwd2UeMTQG5C for ; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 02:46:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80E203A67DB for ; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 02:46:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OkwH2-000KAb-S5 for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 09:46:32 +0000 Received: from [2001:418:1::40] (helo=ran.psg.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OkwH0-000K9f-NJ for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 09:46:30 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=rmac.psg.com.psg.com) by ran.psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OkwGp-0001p1-B2; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 09:46:19 +0000 Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 18:46:18 +0900 Message-ID: From: Randy Bush To: Jeroen Massar Cc: sthaug@nethelp.no, v6ops@ops.ietf.org, ipv6@ietf.org Subject: Re: ping-pong phenomenon with p2p links & /127 prefixes In-Reply-To: <4C69085A.1040706@unfix.org> References: <4C68FD84.80905@unfix.org> <20100816.111224.41652855.sthaug@nethelp.no> <4C690673.1040400@unfix.org> <20100816.114110.71111142.sthaug@nethelp.no> <4C69085A.1040706@unfix.org> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 (Almost Unreal) Emacs/22.3 Mule/5.0 (SAKAKI) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI 1.14.6 - "Maruoka") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: >> I have no plans to ask Cisco and Juniper about this. I want /127 to >> continue working, and couldn't care less about subnet anycast for my >> core routers. > > I think you miss my point: they might finally comply with the specs one > day (if you ask or not, others might) and you will have forgotten about > this little subtle problem and upgrade your routers and voila your > network is broken. then you will join us supporting the /127 document and it won't be a problem, will it. randy From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Aug 16 02:48:43 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA4F03A681F for ; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 02:48:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.547 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.547 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.052, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4g-wmu9zPrl1 for ; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 02:48:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D45523A681B for ; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 02:48:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OkwIz-000KTK-IW for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 09:48:33 +0000 Received: from [64.102.122.148] (helo=rtp-iport-1.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OkwIw-000KRS-T6 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 09:48:31 +0000 Authentication-Results: rtp-iport-1.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AvsEAC+maExAZnwM/2dsb2JhbACgQHGfOpsMhTsEiWI X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.55,375,1278288000"; d="scan'208";a="148086551" Received: from rtp-core-1.cisco.com ([64.102.124.12]) by rtp-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 16 Aug 2010 09:48:28 +0000 Received: from dhcp-osl-vl300-64-103-53-114.cisco.com (dhcp-osl-vl300-64-103-53-114.cisco.com [64.103.53.114]) by rtp-core-1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o7G9mRK4025359; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 09:48:27 GMT Subject: Re: ping-pong phenomenon with p2p links & /127 prefixes Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1081) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Ole Troan In-Reply-To: <4C690673.1040400@unfix.org> Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 11:48:41 +0200 Cc: sthaug@nethelp.no, fernando@gont.com.ar, v6ops@ops.ietf.org, ipv6@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <4C68F1E1.2090003@gont.com.ar> <4C68FD84.80905@unfix.org> <20100816.111224.41652855.sthaug@nethelp.no> <4C690673.1040400@unfix.org> To: Jeroen Massar X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1081) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: Jeroen, >>> Unless you configure two /128's pointing to the remote side, which = will >>> then thus not be 'on-link for neighbor discovery, the little thing >>> called the subnet anycast address will make sure that a /127 ptp = simply >>> does not work, unless you have a platform which disables the subnet >>> anycast address of course. >>=20 >> It would seem disabling the subnet anycast is fairly widespread, = then. >> I have verified the use of /127 on several hardware forwarding = platforms >> from Cisco and Juniper. /127 works just fine, and prevents the = ping-pong. >>=20 >> [One concrete example where /127 works: Juniper T1600 talking to = Cisco >> CRS-1 on an OC-768/STM-256 link.] >=20 > It is quite wide-spread indeed, and for instance Linux used to do it > also until a kernel update in 2003 from 2.4.20 -> 2.4.21 and they > finally implemented subnet anycast support(*) and suddenly it all > started breaking as for IPng.nl at the time we used /127's and = everybody > with a Linux endpoint who did an upgrade of their kernels suddenly had = a > mysterious broken configuration. >=20 > Thus, do ask Cisco and Juniper and other vendors where this now = 'works' > if this intentional, or if they might finally comply to the IPv6 > specifications one day, as then you might better watch out for this as > it will break your network. For the vendors that have it, it might = maybe > be an idea to have a 'disable subnetanycast' command or similar so = that > one can explicitly mark a prefix that way. it is intentional. there is a command to enable support for subnet-router anycast if use of = that is desired. is there _any_ operational experience with the use of the subnet router = anycast address? asking the question another way. is it still a good idea, or was it = ever? (for 6rd we have explicitly required support of it, for discovery of the = real BR unicast address, since we're using IPv4 anycast). cheers, Ole= From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Aug 16 02:58:46 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52C023A67DB for ; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 02:58:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.532 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.532 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.068, BAYES_00=-2.599, NO_RELAYS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CR9n4URhoBFg for ; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 02:58:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D9523A685B for ; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 02:58:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OkwS7-000MJp-3U for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 09:57:59 +0000 Received: from [2001:788:2:117::203] (helo=abaddon.unfix.org) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OkwS0-000MGp-So for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 09:57:53 +0000 Received: from [IPv6:2001:1620:f42:99:216:cfff:fe00:e7d0] (spaghetti.ch.unfix.org [IPv6:2001:1620:f42:99:216:cfff:fe00:e7d0]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: jeroen) by abaddon.unfix.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id ECC48209BE; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 11:57:24 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=unfix.org; s=DKIM2009; t=1281952670; bh=2un1Z18s4/jSRdtgfbN44FWFuenx88fnJlZE7UkwBzg=; h=Message-ID:Date:From:MIME-Version:To:CC:Subject:References: In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=XfSY311shbHIqwsXgGdhN7ZnWXRFVU0/895c0OLsdAoET/Jaf6aFRuZGp3XQEdgxz KBJPWRNa4DXfPqVcyic77s9xKWxP8RqE4LQyufhGjaui740CNfTGJU8QFYFLtKp/oZ AtwwSU7VLQcLMyIhcoQsLnnuU6YBL18sHEJdbgopvvdnbk/GQA52yth53TKyNHLL6F RR9AyGCOtrd/egvN8K4a+cgqmANIdzM6KD0UHBAvVEltW+Gvjn8A2JqjkOtCXb2957 RcozEoN0ARoqu6fTh0fUBABDlR3DVqaTGNZlzCvKT5FLkAfMWetY2FbsQTECg1rv6d Z4Yk72/5oDFkQ== Message-ID: <4C690B88.1000702@unfix.org> Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 11:57:28 +0200 From: Jeroen Massar Organization: Unfix User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.9.2.8) Gecko/20100802 Thunderbird/3.1.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Randy Bush , Ole Troan CC: sthaug@nethelp.no, v6ops@ops.ietf.org, ipv6@ietf.org Subject: Re: ping-pong phenomenon with p2p links & /127 prefixes References: <4C68FD84.80905@unfix.org> <20100816.111224.41652855.sthaug@nethelp.no> <4C690673.1040400@unfix.org> <20100816.114110.71111142.sthaug@nethelp.no> <4C69085A.1040706@unfix.org> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 1.1.1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: [two replies in once before I truly fill up every one's mailboxes ;) ] On 2010-08-16 11:46, Randy Bush wrote: >>> I have no plans to ask Cisco and Juniper about this. I want /127 to >>> continue working, and couldn't care less about subnet anycast for my >>> core routers. >> >> I think you miss my point: they might finally comply with the specs one >> day (if you ask or not, others might) and you will have forgotten about >> this little subtle problem and upgrade your routers and voila your >> network is broken. > > then you will join us supporting the /127 document and it won't be a > problem, will it. When it is changed that way, indeed it won't be a problem any more as that is then the standard and people can't be bitten by it anymore. The big 'problem' I have with it that it is yet-another-special case. Special cases should be kept to a minimum where possible. On 2010-08-16 11:48, Ole Troan wrote: [..] > it is intentional. > there is a command to enable support for subnet-router anycast if use > of that is desired. For your platform (which is then a resolved case), but maybe not others. > is there _any_ operational experience with the use of the subnet > router anycast address? I've never found a real use for it. > asking the question another way. is it still a good idea, or was it > ever? Currently I don't see the use. The only use seems to be an extra annoying slide when one is explaining all the 'good stuff about IPv6' ;) One would almost wonder about fully deprecating the subnet anycast address..... Greets, Jeroen From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Aug 16 03:02:38 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F02093A6995 for ; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 03:02:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.469 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.469 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.130, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5F7or9uvg7AU for ; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 03:02:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06D4C3A6994 for ; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 03:02:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OkwWF-000NFE-LR for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 10:02:15 +0000 Received: from [2001:418:1::40] (helo=ran.psg.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OkwWD-000NEQ-73 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 10:02:13 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=rmac.psg.com.psg.com) by ran.psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OkwWC-0001rl-JV; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 10:02:12 +0000 Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 19:02:11 +0900 Message-ID: From: Randy Bush To: Jeroen Massar Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org, 6man Mailing List Subject: Re: ping-pong phenomenon with p2p links & /127 prefixes In-Reply-To: <4C690B88.1000702@unfix.org> References: <4C68FD84.80905@unfix.org> <20100816.111224.41652855.sthaug@nethelp.no> <4C690673.1040400@unfix.org> <20100816.114110.71111142.sthaug@nethelp.no> <4C69085A.1040706@unfix.org> <4C690B88.1000702@unfix.org> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 (Almost Unreal) Emacs/22.3 Mule/5.0 (SAKAKI) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI 1.14.6 - "Maruoka") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: >> asking the question another way. is it still a good idea, or was it >> ever? > Currently I don't see the use. The only use seems to be an extra > annoying slide when one is explaining all the 'good stuff about IPv6' is anyone using ipv6's special anycast at all? i see use of v4-style anycast in v6, i.e. announcing the same prefix from varied places in the topology. but i know of no use of v6's odd anycast. but i have a narrow view of the world. randy From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Aug 16 04:32:49 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D53123A699A for ; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 04:32:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.337 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.337 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.842, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tD4B6Ui07XzM for ; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 04:32:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D496A3A687E for ; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 04:32:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OkxsK-0009xR-2p for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 11:29:08 +0000 Received: from [209.85.213.194] (helo=mail-yx0-f194.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OkxsH-0009x1-2l for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 11:29:05 +0000 Received: by yxj4 with SMTP id 4so625107yxj.5 for ; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 04:29:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:sender:message-id:date:from :user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to :x-enigmail-version:openpgp:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=4AQrfesFPr7zpFIqu87pUurqiYkUUmtOSoAzDxD2I2Y=; b=CVzfjOgz1fShuKoA40nb5lQMo3TTuX58L32iIvARI6lHCQv5cdu0TcW01x701bO9eB xTr/+KwnNq/eLi30nDd1q0Msvy8DAx6Bi2GP77aftn6fa+XMqNhV7YZsoeq2LNaeCi5I 0sRiMGwfPWl8c4I44akG9Vq5Ascwu03lRSecg= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=sender:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject :references:in-reply-to:x-enigmail-version:openpgp:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=HFuy2E0EaEpf35JPCnAH74BBQ/Qtd8u/XtqKZHSTGtHQD24cTErtMx38TVsa9RYVh3 tb/7cPSrMWhzYVAUFOCLTlBKsZJU1OnsBftoMx+uQ6sqnyrUrMGQ3ofxMQdP1YaQ7LHF dOGMpfDzjxD5ZY7zME9hYGpzZj+vSBaLSxz5I= Received: by 10.101.127.5 with SMTP id e5mr5593584ann.138.1281958143360; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 04:29:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.2.3] ([190.245.181.90]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id r7sm10256335anb.15.2010.08.16.04.29.01 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Mon, 16 Aug 2010 04:29:02 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4C6920F8.7010505@gont.com.ar> Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 08:28:56 -0300 From: Fernando Gont User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.24 (Windows/20100228) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jeroen Massar CC: "ipv6@ietf.org" , "v6ops@ops.ietf.org" Subject: Re: ping-pong phenomenon with p2p links & /127 prefixes References: <4C68F1E1.2090003@gont.com.ar> <4C68FD84.80905@unfix.org> In-Reply-To: <4C68FD84.80905@unfix.org> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.96.0 OpenPGP: id=D076FFF1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: Jeroen Massar wrote: >> P.S.: This fix doesn't prevent the use of /127s (it's orthogonal), > > Unless you configure two /128's pointing to the remote side, which will > then thus not be 'on-link for neighbor discovery, the little thing > called the subnet anycast address will make sure that a /127 ptp simply > does not work, unless you have a platform which disables the subnet > anycast address of course. [...] For the most part, i was trying to make it clear that I wasn't asking about the fix in RFC 4443 from the point-of-view of "the ping-pong issue is already fixed in RFC 4443... we don't need /127 prefixes!". (i.e., I'm not against /127 prefixes... actually, I support the idea). But I'm still interested in knowing what's the downside of the fix in RFC 4443 that I cited in my original post. Does it really kill performance? Thanks! Kind regards, -- Fernando Gont e-mail: fernando@gont.com.ar || fgont@acm.org PGP Fingerprint: 7809 84F5 322E 45C7 F1C9 3945 96EE A9EF D076 FFF1 From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Aug 16 04:55:58 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D0A13A68A0 for ; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 04:55:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.284 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.284 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.789, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FqwM8E0cF2nA for ; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 04:55:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 586CF3A685E for ; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 04:55:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OkyGy-000Dyl-58 for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 11:54:36 +0000 Received: from [64.102.122.149] (helo=rtp-iport-2.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OkyGv-000DyH-MP for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 11:54:33 +0000 Authentication-Results: rtp-iport-2.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AvsEAPLDaExAZnwN/2dsb2JhbACgQXGeSZsXhTsEiWI X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.55,375,1278288000"; d="scan'208";a="148303975" Received: from rtp-core-2.cisco.com ([64.102.124.13]) by rtp-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 16 Aug 2010 11:54:32 +0000 Received: from dhcp-osl-vl300-64-103-53-114.cisco.com (dhcp-osl-vl300-64-103-53-114.cisco.com [64.103.53.114]) by rtp-core-2.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o7GBsVOn016198; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 11:54:31 GMT Subject: Re: ping-pong phenomenon with p2p links & /127 prefixes Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1081) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Ole Troan In-Reply-To: <4C6920F8.7010505@gont.com.ar> Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 13:54:49 +0200 Cc: Jeroen Massar , "ipv6@ietf.org" , "v6ops@ops.ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <4CEBC197-B9C8-4521-8799-9B45DBADAEB3@cisco.com> References: <4C68F1E1.2090003@gont.com.ar> <4C68FD84.80905@unfix.org> <4C6920F8.7010505@gont.com.ar> To: Fernando Gont X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1081) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: >>> P.S.: This fix doesn't prevent the use of /127s (it's orthogonal), >>=20 >> Unless you configure two /128's pointing to the remote side, which = will >> then thus not be 'on-link for neighbor discovery, the little thing >> called the subnet anycast address will make sure that a /127 ptp = simply >> does not work, unless you have a platform which disables the subnet >> anycast address of course. > [...] >=20 > For the most part, i was trying to make it clear that I wasn't asking > about the fix in RFC 4443 from the point-of-view of "the ping-pong = issue > is already fixed in RFC 4443... we don't need /127 prefixes!". (i.e., > I'm not against /127 prefixes... actually, I support the idea). /127 gives you other things too. - those who use /31s for IPv4 today can continue the same practice (the = resist change argument) - operators implicitly know the address of the other end - doesn't "waste" space (yeah, yeah... I know) one could equally just make a convention to use link-locals with fe80::1 = and fe80::2 and /128s on each side if one needed global addresses for sources to = traceroute etc. > But I'm still interested in knowing what's the downside of the fix in > RFC 4443 that I cited in my original post. Does it really kill = performance? in the forwarding path one would have to check that incoming interface = equals outgoing interface (done in existing redirect check anyway) and = one would have to verify that the destination address is covered by a = connected route on the outgoing interface. this shouldn't require additional lookups, but would require changes in = silicon. cheers, Ole= From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Aug 16 06:27:26 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5904B3A6837 for ; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 06:27:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6Ybu6U6wsSxR for ; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 06:27:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C4DC3A659B for ; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 06:27:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Okzfg-0001KR-Jc for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 13:24:12 +0000 Received: from [2001:608:2:81::2] (helo=mobil.space.net) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Okzfa-0001Jx-Hn for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 13:24:06 +0000 Received: from mobil.space.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mobil.space.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24628F81A2 for ; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 15:24:03 +0200 (CEST) X-SpaceNet-Relay: true Received: from moebius3.space.net (moebius3.Space.Net [IPv6:2001:608:2:2::250]) by mobil.space.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 05359F8191 for ; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 15:24:03 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 11157 invoked by uid 1007); 16 Aug 2010 15:24:02 +0200 Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 15:24:02 +0200 From: Gert Doering To: Jeroen Massar Cc: sthaug@nethelp.no, fernando@gont.com.ar, v6ops@ops.ietf.org, ipv6@ietf.org Subject: Re: ping-pong phenomenon with p2p links & /127 prefixes Message-ID: <20100816132402.GE61734@Space.Net> References: <4C68FD84.80905@unfix.org> <20100816.111224.41652855.sthaug@nethelp.no> <4C690673.1040400@unfix.org> <20100816.114110.71111142.sthaug@nethelp.no> <4C69085A.1040706@unfix.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4C69085A.1040706@unfix.org> X-NCC-RegID: de.space User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: Hi, On Mon, Aug 16, 2010 at 11:43:54AM +0200, Jeroen Massar wrote: > I think you miss my point: they might finally comply with the specs one > day (if you ask or not, others might) and you will have forgotten about > this little subtle problem and upgrade your routers and voila your > network is broken. Cisco understands subnet-anycast, and disables this for /127s. Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- Total number of prefixes smaller than registry allocations: 155817 SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (89) 32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Aug 16 06:41:47 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B872E3A67F6 for ; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 06:41:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.108 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.108 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.437, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_EQ_AU=0.377, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GnS6r9psKZbD for ; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 06:41:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8196B3A659B for ; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 06:41:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OkzvV-0003cu-75 for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 13:40:33 +0000 Received: from [202.136.110.249] (helo=smtp3.adam.net.au) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OkzvO-0003bk-NA; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 13:40:27 +0000 Received: from 219-90-255-65.ip.adam.com.au ([219.90.255.65] helo=opy.nosense.org) by smtp3.adam.net.au with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1OkzvJ-0008NN-4a; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 23:10:21 +0930 Received: from opy.nosense.org (localhost.localdomain [IPv6:::1]) by opy.nosense.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D9C03B325; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 23:08:07 +0930 (CST) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 23:08:06 +0930 From: Mark Smith To: Randy Bush Cc: Jeroen Massar , v6ops@ops.ietf.org, ipv6@ietf.org Subject: Re: ping-pong phenomenon with p2p links & /127 prefixes Message-ID: <20100816230806.629c633a@opy.nosense.org> In-Reply-To: References: <4C68FD84.80905@unfix.org> <20100816.111224.41652855.sthaug@nethelp.no> <4C690673.1040400@unfix.org> <20100816.114110.71111142.sthaug@nethelp.no> <4C69085A.1040706@unfix.org> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.7.6 (GTK+ 2.20.1; x86_64-unknown-linux-gnu) X-Location: Lower Mitcham, South Australia, 5062 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: On Mon, 16 Aug 2010 18:46:18 +0900 Randy Bush wrote: > >> I have no plans to ask Cisco and Juniper about this. I want /127 to > >> continue working, and couldn't care less about subnet anycast for my > >> core routers. > > > > I think you miss my point: they might finally comply with the specs one > > day (if you ask or not, others might) and you will have forgotten about > > this little subtle problem and upgrade your routers and voila your > > network is broken. > > then you will join us supporting the /127 document and it won't be a > problem, will it. > Why won't you and the other authors do a proper job with it then? It doesn't address all the implications that arise. It should, point by point address, all the issues in RFC3627. It should address the points I raised here 2 weeks ago. It doesn't read to me as a proper justification of why the RFCs it contradicts should be contradicted. e.g. Where is the text explaining the implications to bits 70 and 71, if there are any, and do they need to be managed, and if so, how? Saying "it works" is not good enough. A screw driver can be used to open a paint can, so "it works" as a paint can opener, but eventually you ruin it and won't be able to use it to undo screws. /127s break things that are described in existing specifications and have been implemented. I think the /127 draft needs to justify itself against each and every one of them. I personally probably won't use them. But that doesn't mean that I don't want to understand them and that I don't want to know exactly all the implications and tradeoffs involved in using them. The draft as it stands doesn't properly provide that information. > randy > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- From upumojejam4653@comcast.net Mon Aug 16 11:48:26 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 523403A6834 for ; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 11:48:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -68.241 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-68.241 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, URIBL_SBL=20, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PpSDAWs8v5m9 for ; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 11:48:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from comcast.net (c-98-203-62-236.hsd1.fl.comcast.net [98.203.62.236]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 715803A6A13 for ; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 11:48:25 -0700 (PDT) From: To: v6ops-archive@ietf.org Reply-To: Subject: Increase your length by 2 inches, here's how Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 14:48:38 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-Id: <20100816184825.715803A6A13@core3.amsl.com> Traditional herbal remedies definitely do increase your length http://www.elfyear.ru/ From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Aug 16 11:55:31 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32F403A6407 for ; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 11:55:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.059 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.059 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.564, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id b4-MzF9dCtQi for ; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 11:55:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4852A3A682D for ; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 11:55:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ol4kx-0001Vo-4U for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 18:49:59 +0000 Received: from [64.102.122.148] (helo=rtp-iport-1.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ol4ku-0001VD-NX for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 18:49:56 +0000 Authentication-Results: rtp-iport-1.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AvsEAL8kaUxAZnwM/2dsb2JhbACgS3GkIJt0hTsEiWI X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.55,377,1278288000"; d="scan'208";a="148286431" Received: from rtp-core-1.cisco.com ([64.102.124.12]) by rtp-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 16 Aug 2010 18:49:49 +0000 Received: from dhcp-10-55-93-147.cisco.com (dhcp-10-55-93-147.cisco.com [10.55.93.147]) by rtp-core-1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o7GInkuW022644; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 18:49:47 GMT Subject: Re: ping-pong phenomenon with p2p links & /127 prefixes Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1081) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Ole Troan In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 20:49:46 +0200 Cc: Fernando Gont , "v6ops@ops.ietf.org" , "ipv6@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <9EA50843-72B1-4E16-AE0E-58AC32D9C8C9@cisco.com> References: <4C68F1E1.2090003@gont.com.ar> <4C68FD84.80905@unfix.org> <4C6920F8.7010505@gont.com.ar> <4CEBC197-B9C8-4521-8799-9B45DBADAEB3@cisco.com> To: Christopher Morrow X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1081) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: On Aug 16, 2010, at 20:34 , Christopher Morrow wrote: > On Mon, Aug 16, 2010 at 7:54 AM, Ole Troan wrote: >=20 >> one could equally just make a convention to use link-locals with = fe80::1 and fe80::2 >> and /128s on each side if one needed global addresses for sources to = traceroute etc. >=20 > no, ping/monitoring/data-collection fails in this case. (or needs to > be overhauled to collect/test/monitor in new/fun ways) how & why? please, give a more specific example. cheers, Ole= From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Aug 16 13:12:39 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1442B3A6A53 for ; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 13:12:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.051 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.051 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.556, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vTpjvKRjhUZr for ; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 13:12:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 64A783A677D for ; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 13:12:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ol5zy-000D7Q-Nl for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 20:09:34 +0000 Received: from [64.102.122.148] (helo=rtp-iport-1.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ol5zu-000D6s-Ux for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 20:09:31 +0000 Authentication-Results: rtp-iport-1.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AvsEAH83aUxAZnwM/2dsb2JhbACgS3GkUZt1hTsEiWI X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.55,378,1278288000"; d="scan'208";a="148314045" Received: from rtp-core-1.cisco.com ([64.102.124.12]) by rtp-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 16 Aug 2010 20:09:29 +0000 Received: from dhcp-10-55-93-147.cisco.com (dhcp-10-55-93-147.cisco.com [10.55.93.147]) by rtp-core-1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o7GK9S3S023747; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 20:09:29 GMT Subject: Re: ping-pong phenomenon with p2p links & /127 prefixes Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1081) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Ole Troan In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 22:09:27 +0200 Cc: Christopher Morrow , "v6ops@ops.ietf.org" , "ipv6@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <42D75C56-3B6E-47FD-936C-5AB0F54F484B@cisco.com> References: <4C68F1E1.2090003@gont.com.ar> <4C68FD84.80905@unfix.org> <4C6920F8.7010505@gont.com.ar> <4CEBC197-B9C8-4521-8799-9B45DBADAEB3@cisco.com> <9EA50843-72B1-4E16-AE0E-58AC32D9C8C9@cisco.com> To: Jared Mauch X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1081) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: Jared, > Please explain how ll would solve the problem first. Maybe the = bcp38+1918 thread on nanog on recent days would be instructive.=20 which problem? there are several. with regards to the NANOG reference, I don't quite see the similarity. I = haven't seen any implementation sourcing packets with a link-local = source and these getting anywhere. what I suggested was just to do one of: 1) link-locals only. ICMPs, traceroute etc take a suitably scoped source = address from e.g a loopback or some other interface. 2) link-locals plus a global /128 if one wants per interface addresses = for ICMPs etc. BGP peerings and what not could use link-local addresses. e.g: router A -------------- router B fe80::1 fe80::2 dead:beef::1/128 c001:cafe::2/128 no shared subnet between A and B apart from fe80::/10. cheers, Ole From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Aug 16 13:38:31 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFD8F3A6AB3 for ; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 13:38:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.046 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.046 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.551, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5HR1CiH+OUey for ; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 13:38:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1D993A6A97 for ; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 13:38:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ol6Qb-000Gvj-7b for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 20:37:05 +0000 Received: from [64.102.122.148] (helo=rtp-iport-1.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ol6QY-000GvP-Dz for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 20:37:02 +0000 Authentication-Results: rtp-iport-1.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AvsEAIY+aUxAZnwN/2dsb2JhbACgS3GlO5txhTsEiWI X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.55,378,1278288000"; d="scan'208";a="148324517" Received: from rtp-core-2.cisco.com ([64.102.124.13]) by rtp-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 16 Aug 2010 20:37:01 +0000 Received: from ams3-vpn-dhcp7054.cisco.com (ams3-vpn-dhcp7054.cisco.com [10.61.91.141]) by rtp-core-2.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o7GKa0Rs022010; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 20:37:00 GMT Subject: Re: ping-pong phenomenon with p2p links & /127 prefixes Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1081) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Ole Troan In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 22:36:59 +0200 Cc: Fernando Gont , "v6ops@ops.ietf.org" , "ipv6@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <615459EE-4132-4AFC-90EE-FF6772946B98@cisco.com> References: <4C68F1E1.2090003@gont.com.ar> <4C68FD84.80905@unfix.org> <4C6920F8.7010505@gont.com.ar> <4CEBC197-B9C8-4521-8799-9B45DBADAEB3@cisco.com> <9EA50843-72B1-4E16-AE0E-58AC32D9C8C9@cisco.com> To: Christopher Morrow X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1081) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: >>>> one could equally just make a convention to use link-locals with = fe80::1 and fe80::2 >>>> and /128s on each side if one needed global addresses for sources = to traceroute etc. >>>=20 >>> no, ping/monitoring/data-collection fails in this case. (or needs to >>> be overhauled to collect/test/monitor in new/fun ways) >>=20 >>=20 >> how & why? please, give a more specific example. >=20 > please ping my router, it's interface address is: = fe80::20e:cff:fe5c:b001/64 >=20 > my monitoring system can't ping this to ensure liveness of the > interface either :( but they can ping whatever global /128 you put on that interface, so why = doesn't that solve the problems? cheers, Ole From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Aug 16 13:54:09 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0CCE33A68DC for ; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 13:54:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.575 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.575 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.527, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 41jI5SrHtT8p for ; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 13:54:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 298983A684B for ; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 13:54:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ol6fS-000J9i-HK for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 20:52:26 +0000 Received: from [195.1.209.33] (helo=bizet.nethelp.no) by psg.com with smtp (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ol6fP-000J8u-LV for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 20:52:24 +0000 Received: (qmail 77175 invoked from network); 16 Aug 2010 20:52:21 -0000 Received: from bizet.nethelp.no (HELO localhost) (195.1.209.33) by bizet.nethelp.no with SMTP; 16 Aug 2010 20:52:21 -0000 Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 22:52:21 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <20100816.225221.74734208.sthaug@nethelp.no> To: ot@cisco.com Cc: christopher.morrow@gmail.com, v6ops@ops.ietf.org, ipv6@ietf.org Subject: Re: ping-pong phenomenon with p2p links & /127 prefixes From: sthaug@nethelp.no In-Reply-To: <615459EE-4132-4AFC-90EE-FF6772946B98@cisco.com> References: <9EA50843-72B1-4E16-AE0E-58AC32D9C8C9@cisco.com> <615459EE-4132-4AFC-90EE-FF6772946B98@cisco.com> X-Mailer: Mew version 3.3 on Emacs 21.3 / Mule 5.0 (SAKAKI) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: > > please ping my router, it's interface address is: fe80::20e:cff:fe5c:b001/64 > > > > my monitoring system can't ping this to ensure liveness of the > > interface either :( > > but they can ping whatever global /128 you put on that interface, so why doesn't that solve the problems? Because you are then using one set of addresses for protool peerings and another one for global ping - thus making life more complicated for the operator. Steinar Haug, Nethelp consulting, sthaug@nethelp.no From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Aug 16 14:01:36 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 195B83A6AB7 for ; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 14:01:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.043 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.043 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.548, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PN20Y5sPfBsh for ; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 14:01:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F7F83A6AAE for ; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 14:01:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ol6o0-000Ksc-Jb for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 21:01:16 +0000 Received: from [64.102.122.148] (helo=rtp-iport-1.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ol6nx-000Kqw-QN for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 21:01:14 +0000 Authentication-Results: rtp-iport-1.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: An8FACZEaUxAZnwN/2dsb2JhbACTN40ScaM1m2+FOwSJYg X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.55,378,1278288000"; d="scan'208";a="148335808" Received: from rtp-core-2.cisco.com ([64.102.124.13]) by rtp-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 16 Aug 2010 21:01:10 +0000 Received: from ams3-vpn-dhcp7054.cisco.com (ams3-vpn-dhcp7054.cisco.com [10.61.91.141]) by rtp-core-2.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o7GL18rJ001091; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 21:01:09 GMT Subject: Re: ping-pong phenomenon with p2p links & /127 prefixes Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1081) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Ole Troan In-Reply-To: <20100816.225221.74734208.sthaug@nethelp.no> Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2010 23:01:08 +0200 Cc: christopher.morrow@gmail.com, v6ops@ops.ietf.org, ipv6@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <2CCCB85D-8827-414F-8E5B-6D4EB57774C3@cisco.com> References: <9EA50843-72B1-4E16-AE0E-58AC32D9C8C9@cisco.com> <615459EE-4132-4AFC-90EE-FF6772946B98@cisco.com> <20100816.225221.74734208.sthaug@nethelp.no> To: sthaug@nethelp.no X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1081) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: >>> please ping my router, it's interface address is: = fe80::20e:cff:fe5c:b001/64 >>>=20 >>> my monitoring system can't ping this to ensure liveness of the >>> interface either :( >>=20 >> but they can ping whatever global /128 you put on that interface, so = why doesn't that solve the problems? >=20 > Because you are then using one set of addresses for protool peerings > and another one for global ping - thus making life more complicated > for the operator. is that any more "complicated" (I don't quite understand that argument) = than using IS-IS? cheers, Ole= From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Aug 16 14:07:11 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDDCD3A6AA8 for ; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 14:07:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.079 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.079 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.408, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_EQ_AU=0.377, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tsOkvamAtE8F for ; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 14:07:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 652603A67B5 for ; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 14:07:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ol6t4-000Ly6-Tf for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 21:06:30 +0000 Received: from [202.136.110.249] (helo=smtp3.adam.net.au) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ol6t1-000Lx8-3V for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 21:06:27 +0000 Received: from 219-90-255-65.ip.adam.com.au ([219.90.255.65] helo=opy.nosense.org) by smtp3.adam.net.au with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1Ol6ss-0003eq-KI; Tue, 17 Aug 2010 06:36:18 +0930 Received: from opy.nosense.org (localhost.localdomain [IPv6:::1]) by opy.nosense.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D6F83B31E; Tue, 17 Aug 2010 06:34:00 +0930 (CST) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 06:34:00 +0930 From: Mark Smith To: Ole Troan Cc: Jeroen Massar , v6ops@ops.ietf.org, ipv6@ietf.org Subject: Re: ping-pong phenomenon with p2p links & /127 prefixes Message-ID: <20100817063400.24b594db@opy.nosense.org> In-Reply-To: References: <4C68F1E1.2090003@gont.com.ar> <4C68FD84.80905@unfix.org> <20100816.111224.41652855.sthaug@nethelp.no> <4C690673.1040400@unfix.org> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.7.6 (GTK+ 2.20.1; x86_64-unknown-linux-gnu) X-Location: Lower Mitcham, South Australia, 5062 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: On Mon, 16 Aug 2010 11:48:41 +0200 Ole Troan wrote: > Jeroen, > > >>> Unless you configure two /128's pointing to the remote side, which will > >>> then thus not be 'on-link for neighbor discovery, the little thing > >>> called the subnet anycast address will make sure that a /127 ptp simply > >>> does not work, unless you have a platform which disables the subnet > >>> anycast address of course. > >> > >> It would seem disabling the subnet anycast is fairly widespread, then. > >> I have verified the use of /127 on several hardware forwarding platforms > >> from Cisco and Juniper. /127 works just fine, and prevents the ping-pong. > >> > >> [One concrete example where /127 works: Juniper T1600 talking to Cisco > >> CRS-1 on an OC-768/STM-256 link.] > > > > It is quite wide-spread indeed, and for instance Linux used to do it > > also until a kernel update in 2003 from 2.4.20 -> 2.4.21 and they > > finally implemented subnet anycast support(*) and suddenly it all > > started breaking as for IPng.nl at the time we used /127's and everybody > > with a Linux endpoint who did an upgrade of their kernels suddenly had a > > mysterious broken configuration. > > > > Thus, do ask Cisco and Juniper and other vendors where this now 'works' > > if this intentional, or if they might finally comply to the IPv6 > > specifications one day, as then you might better watch out for this as > > it will break your network. For the vendors that have it, it might maybe > > be an idea to have a 'disable subnetanycast' command or similar so that > > one can explicitly mark a prefix that way. > > it is intentional. > there is a command to enable support for subnet-router anycast if use of that is desired. > > is there _any_ operational experience with the use of the subnet router anycast address? > asking the question another way. is it still a good idea, or was it ever? > I think it's origins are likely Appletalk, where it was used for Name Binding Protocol. NBP is for resolving hostnames to autoconfigured Appletalk node addresses. It was constantly in use anytime an Appletalk network had a router. > (for 6rd we have explicitly required support of it, for discovery of the real BR unicast address, since we're using IPv4 anycast). > > cheers, > Ole > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Aug 16 14:17:23 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8FFE3A6AB8 for ; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 14:17:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.474 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.474 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.125, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id G5f71vqwHEBp for ; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 14:17:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 242123A6ACB for ; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 14:17:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ol71R-000Nie-JS for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 21:15:09 +0000 Received: from [2001:418:1::40] (helo=ran.psg.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ol71M-000Nhp-Fu for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 21:15:04 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=rmac.psg.com.psg.com) by ran.psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ol71J-0003WG-UH; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 21:15:02 +0000 Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 06:15:00 +0900 Message-ID: From: Randy Bush To: sthaug@nethelp.no Cc: ot@cisco.com, v6ops@ops.ietf.org, ipv6@ietf.org Subject: Re: ping-pong phenomenon with p2p links & /127 prefixes In-Reply-To: <20100816.225221.74734208.sthaug@nethelp.no> References: <9EA50843-72B1-4E16-AE0E-58AC32D9C8C9@cisco.com> <615459EE-4132-4AFC-90EE-FF6772946B98@cisco.com> <20100816.225221.74734208.sthaug@nethelp.no> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 (Almost Unreal) Emacs/22.3 Mule/5.0 (SAKAKI) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI 1.14.6 - "Maruoka") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: >> but they can ping whatever global /128 you put on that interface, so >> why doesn't that solve the problems? > Because you are then using one set of addresses for protool peerings > and another one for global ping - thus making life more complicated > for the operator. and is sure to have really fun failure modes that are exciting to debug. randy From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Aug 16 17:07:17 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B6163A67E7 for ; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 17:07:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.216 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.216 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.020, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AivwJuuno5Jy for ; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 17:07:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9414C3A6835 for ; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 17:07:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ol9dL-000IuU-8n for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Tue, 17 Aug 2010 00:02:27 +0000 Received: from [202.32.8.193] (helo=tyo201.gate.nec.co.jp) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ol9dI-000Itr-Fa for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 17 Aug 2010 00:02:24 +0000 Received: from mailgate3.nec.co.jp ([10.7.69.195]) by tyo201.gate.nec.co.jp (8.13.8/8.13.4) with ESMTP id o7H02IOV005339; Tue, 17 Aug 2010 09:02:18 +0900 (JST) Received: (from root@localhost) by mailgate3.nec.co.jp (8.11.7/3.7W-MAILGATE-NEC) id o7H02Im18281; Tue, 17 Aug 2010 09:02:18 +0900 (JST) Received: from bgas200085.sys.biglobe.nec.co.jp (bgas200085.sys.biglobe.nec.co.jp [10.82.141.45]) by mailsv4.nec.co.jp (8.13.8/8.13.4) with ESMTP id o7H02Hrn006202; Tue, 17 Aug 2010 09:02:17 +0900 (JST) Received: from mail.sys.biglobe.nec.co.jp (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by bgas200085.sys.biglobe.nec.co.jp (BINGO/BINGO/06101717) with ESMTP id o7H02H7J003194; Tue, 17 Aug 2010 09:02:17 +0900 Received: from mail.sys.biglobe.nec.co.jp (bgsx5626.sys.biglobe.nec.co.jp [10.18.151.10]) (envelope-from kawamucho@mesh.ad.jp) by mail.sys.biglobe.nec.co.jp (BINGO/BINGO/10031711) with ESMTP id o7H02HoZ024926 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 17 Aug 2010 09:02:17 +0900 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (edonet065.sys.biglobe.nec.co.jp [10.19.137.65]) (authenticated bits=0) (envelope-from kawamucho@mesh.ad.jp) by mail.sys.biglobe.nec.co.jp (BINGO/BINGO/10031711) with ESMTP id o7H02HGS030087 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 17 Aug 2010 09:02:17 +0900 Message-ID: <4C69D188.5000204@mesh.ad.jp> Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 09:02:16 +0900 From: Seiichi Kawamura User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.24 (Windows/20100228) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jared Mauch CC: Ole Troan , "v6ops@ops.ietf.org" , "ipv6@ietf.org" Subject: Re: ping-pong phenomenon with p2p links & /127 prefixes References: <9EA50843-72B1-4E16-AE0E-58AC32D9C8C9@cisco.com> <615459EE-4132-4AFC-90EE-FF6772946B98@cisco.com> <20100816.225221.74734208.sthaug@nethelp.no> <2CCCB85D-8827-414F-8E5B-6D4EB57774C3@cisco.com> <7ED0F40B-156D-4D6E-B673-731499AB9CCD@puck.nether.net> In-Reply-To: <7ED0F40B-156D-4D6E-B673-731499AB9CCD@puck.nether.net> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.96.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Jared Mauch wrote: > > Jared Mauch > > On Aug 16, 2010, at 5:01 PM, Ole Troan wrote: > >>>>> please ping my router, it's interface address is: fe80::20e:cff:fe5c:b001/64 >>>>> >>>>> my monitoring system can't ping this to ensure liveness of the >>>>> interface either :( >>>> but they can ping whatever global /128 you put on that interface, so why doesn't that solve the problems? >>> Because you are then using one set of addresses for protool peerings >>> and another one for global ping - thus making life more complicated >>> for the operator. >> is that any more "complicated" (I don't quite understand that argument) than using IS-IS? >> > > Yes. yes. I tried something close to it 5 years ago and it was hell. Regards, Seiichi -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (MingW32) iEYEARECAAYFAkxp0YgACgkQcrhTYfxyMkKmVQCdFv4RNW2SsvpEjHbk491GeY6q y6kAnRLLyg6xiSjNN6npIkwxfc0Pckna =lfuh -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Aug 16 17:34:33 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96F343A6849 for ; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 17:34:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.04 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.04 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.545, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WnZ5hY1zXrTL for ; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 17:34:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B39A33A67E3 for ; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 17:34:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OlA7E-000Miy-Bo for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Tue, 17 Aug 2010 00:33:20 +0000 Received: from [64.102.122.149] (helo=rtp-iport-2.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OlA7B-000Mi7-Oe for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 17 Aug 2010 00:33:17 +0000 Authentication-Results: rtp-iport-2.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AvsEABJ2aUxAZnwM/2dsb2JhbACgTHGkZJwJhTsEiWI X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.55,379,1278288000"; d="scan'208";a="148580506" Received: from rtp-core-1.cisco.com ([64.102.124.12]) by rtp-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 17 Aug 2010 00:33:15 +0000 Received: from ams3-vpn-dhcp7218.cisco.com (ams3-vpn-dhcp7218.cisco.com [10.61.92.49]) by rtp-core-1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o7H0XECa028748; Tue, 17 Aug 2010 00:33:15 GMT Subject: Re: ping-pong phenomenon with p2p links & /127 prefixes Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1081) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Ole Troan In-Reply-To: <4C69D188.5000204@mesh.ad.jp> Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 02:33:13 +0200 Cc: Jared Mauch , "v6ops@ops.ietf.org" , "ipv6@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <9EA50843-72B1-4E16-AE0E-58AC32D9C8C9@cisco.com> <615459EE-4132-4AFC-90EE-FF6772946B98@cisco.com> <20100816.225221.74734208.sthaug@nethelp.no> <2CCCB85D-8827-414F-8E5B-6D4EB57774C3@cisco.com> <7ED0F40B-156D-4D6E-B673-731499AB9CCD@puck.nether.net> <4C69D188.5000204@mesh.ad.jp> To: Seiichi Kawamura X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1081) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: >>>>>> please ping my router, it's interface address is: = fe80::20e:cff:fe5c:b001/64 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> my monitoring system can't ping this to ensure liveness of the >>>>>> interface either :( >>>>> but they can ping whatever global /128 you put on that interface, = so why doesn't that solve the problems? >>>> Because you are then using one set of addresses for protool = peerings >>>> and another one for global ping - thus making life more complicated >>>> for the operator. >>> is that any more "complicated" (I don't quite understand that = argument) than using IS-IS? >>>=20 >>=20 >> Yes.=20 >=20 > yes. I tried something close to it 5 years ago and it was hell. how? Jared's "Yes" doesn't exactly help my understanding why this is = operationally complex. cheers, Ole From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Aug 16 18:53:03 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CB6E3A689C for ; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 18:53:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.206 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.206 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.010, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mzefqzvtzJYV for ; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 18:53:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4DA163A6876 for ; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 18:53:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OlBIn-00070f-0e for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Tue, 17 Aug 2010 01:49:21 +0000 Received: from [202.32.8.193] (helo=tyo201.gate.nec.co.jp) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OlBIj-0006yl-SK for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 17 Aug 2010 01:49:18 +0000 Received: from mailgate4.nec.co.jp ([10.7.69.184]) by tyo201.gate.nec.co.jp (8.13.8/8.13.4) with ESMTP id o7H1nC9r029648; Tue, 17 Aug 2010 10:49:12 +0900 (JST) Received: (from root@localhost) by mailgate4.nec.co.jp (8.11.7/3.7W-MAILGATE-NEC) id o7H1nCm27037; Tue, 17 Aug 2010 10:49:12 +0900 (JST) Received: from bgas200085.sys.biglobe.nec.co.jp (bgas200085.sys.biglobe.nec.co.jp [10.82.141.45]) by mailsv4.nec.co.jp (8.13.8/8.13.4) with ESMTP id o7H1nBNU015438; Tue, 17 Aug 2010 10:49:11 +0900 (JST) Received: from mail.sys.biglobe.nec.co.jp (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by bgas200085.sys.biglobe.nec.co.jp (BINGO/BINGO/06101717) with ESMTP id o7H1nBME013189; Tue, 17 Aug 2010 10:49:11 +0900 Received: from mail.sys.biglobe.nec.co.jp (bgsx5626.sys.biglobe.nec.co.jp [10.18.151.10]) (envelope-from kawamucho@mesh.ad.jp) by mail.sys.biglobe.nec.co.jp (BINGO/BINGO/10031711) with ESMTP id o7H1nBVi026065 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 17 Aug 2010 10:49:11 +0900 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (edonet065.sys.biglobe.nec.co.jp [10.19.137.65]) (authenticated bits=0) (envelope-from kawamucho@mesh.ad.jp) by mail.sys.biglobe.nec.co.jp (BINGO/BINGO/10031711) with ESMTP id o7H1nBTZ031227 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 17 Aug 2010 10:49:11 +0900 Message-ID: <4C69EA96.9060301@mesh.ad.jp> Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 10:49:10 +0900 From: Seiichi Kawamura User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.24 (Windows/20100228) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ole Troan CC: Jared Mauch , "v6ops@ops.ietf.org" , "ipv6@ietf.org" Subject: Re: ping-pong phenomenon with p2p links & /127 prefixes References: <9EA50843-72B1-4E16-AE0E-58AC32D9C8C9@cisco.com> <615459EE-4132-4AFC-90EE-FF6772946B98@cisco.com> <20100816.225221.74734208.sthaug@nethelp.no> <2CCCB85D-8827-414F-8E5B-6D4EB57774C3@cisco.com> <7ED0F40B-156D-4D6E-B673-731499AB9CCD@puck.nether.net> <4C69D188.5000204@mesh.ad.jp> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 0.96.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hi Ole-san Ole Troan wrote: >>>>>>> please ping my router, it's interface address is: fe80::20e:cff:fe5c:b001/64 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> my monitoring system can't ping this to ensure liveness of the >>>>>>> interface either :( >>>>>> but they can ping whatever global /128 you put on that interface, so why doesn't that solve the problems? >>>>> Because you are then using one set of addresses for protool peerings >>>>> and another one for global ping - thus making life more complicated >>>>> for the operator. >>>> is that any more "complicated" (I don't quite understand that argument) than using IS-IS? >>>> >>> Yes. >> yes. I tried something close to it 5 years ago and it was hell. > > how? Jared's "Yes" doesn't exactly help my understanding why this is operationally complex. Jared's yes may be different from my yes, but (quoting your exmaple) > BGP peerings and what not could use link-local addresses. e.g: > > router A -------------- router B > fe80::1 fe80::2 > dead:beef::1/128 c001:cafe::2/128 if I get a BGP neighbor down message with fe80::2 then what address do I ping, trace? I can look at config of router A and my address is dead:beef::1. What's the other side's global address? If router B isn't mine, I may not have a clue. The challenge here is that we don't always have the knowledge of whats on the other side of the router. When you have tons of these links on one router, this is just making trouble shooting harder. Even if I did know the other side's global address, monitoring pings cannot be sent to fe80::2. We'll have to ping c001:cafe::2 and manually link that status with fe80::2 peering session on the NMS. I would hate to do that with hundreds of sessions running inside my network. That's always been a causes mistakes. We want to monitor what's acutally running and not some alias address. Regards, Seiichi -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (MingW32) iEYEARECAAYFAkxp6pUACgkQcrhTYfxyMkIwLQCgg6vbPQs6UYa+2EkbOsfnwJGR a4QAnj4WhgvKncvqeBdEtw0aGTg3WkHe =8s7k -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Aug 16 22:24:15 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 838E83A6877 for ; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 22:24:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.481 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.481 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.118, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YjcV6L-oe8zn for ; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 22:24:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C9A53A67E5 for ; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 22:24:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OlEaC-0005ZZ-PT for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Tue, 17 Aug 2010 05:19:32 +0000 Received: from [2001:418:1::40] (helo=ran.psg.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OlEaA-0005ZI-Fy for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 17 Aug 2010 05:19:30 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=rmac.psg.com.psg.com) by ran.psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OlEa9-0005Wh-Be; Tue, 17 Aug 2010 05:19:29 +0000 Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 14:19:28 +0900 Message-ID: From: Randy Bush To: Jared Mauch Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org, ipv6 deployment prevention Subject: Re: ping-pong phenomenon with p2p links & /127 prefixes In-Reply-To: <9849AB7C-2641-4D85-BA9B-1C61FDABA32A@puck.nether.net> References: <9EA50843-72B1-4E16-AE0E-58AC32D9C8C9@cisco.com> <615459EE-4132-4AFC-90EE-FF6772946B98@cisco.com> <20100816.225221.74734208.sthaug@nethelp.no> <2CCCB85D-8827-414F-8E5B-6D4EB57774C3@cisco.com> <7ED0F40B-156D-4D6E-B673-731499AB9CCD@puck.nether.net> <4C69D188.5000204@mesh.ad.jp> <9849AB7C-2641-4D85-BA9B-1C61FDABA32A@puck.nether.net> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 (Almost Unreal) Emacs/22.3 Mule/5.0 (SAKAKI) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI 1.14.6 - "Maruoka") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: > link-local addresses have a very-limited use (and in some cases no use > at all in the backbone that we operate). i fear we are talking to people who don't go past the head end. cisco is big, and folk can get tunnel vision. randy From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Aug 16 23:59:24 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 331A33A681A for ; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 23:59:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.094 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.094 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.599, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id moYNpmu2bTFC for ; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 23:59:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BCF03A63EC for ; Mon, 16 Aug 2010 23:59:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OlG5Z-000Hgr-5b for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Tue, 17 Aug 2010 06:56:01 +0000 Received: from [64.102.122.148] (helo=rtp-iport-1.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OlG5W-000HgX-Hg for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 17 Aug 2010 06:55:58 +0000 Authentication-Results: rtp-iport-1.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AvsEANfPaUxAZnwN/2dsb2JhbACgO3GhBpwZhTcEjFA X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.55,380,1278288000"; d="scan'208";a="148495229" Received: from rtp-core-2.cisco.com ([64.102.124.13]) by rtp-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 17 Aug 2010 06:55:57 +0000 Received: from xbh-ams-201.cisco.com (xbh-ams-201.cisco.com [144.254.75.7]) by rtp-core-2.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o7H6tukD005334; Tue, 17 Aug 2010 06:55:57 GMT Received: from xmb-ams-110.cisco.com ([144.254.74.85]) by xbh-ams-201.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Tue, 17 Aug 2010 08:55:56 +0200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: ping-pong phenomenon with p2p links & /127 prefixes Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 08:55:53 +0200 Message-ID: <317616CE96204D49B5A1811098BA89500290F5E6@XMB-AMS-110.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <4C69EA96.9060301@mesh.ad.jp> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: ping-pong phenomenon with p2p links & /127 prefixes Thread-Index: Acs9rxz4Rnox4SSIS6iDfX+S7H5iqQAKRljw References: <9EA50843-72B1-4E16-AE0E-58AC32D9C8C9@cisco.com> <615459EE-4132-4AFC-90EE-FF6772946B98@cisco.com> <20100816.225221.74734208.sthaug@nethelp.no> <2CCCB85D-8827-414F-8E5B-6D4EB57774C3@cisco.com> <7ED0F40B-156D-4D6E-B673-731499AB9CCD@puck.nether.net> <4C69D188.5000204@mesh.ad.jp> <4C69EA96.9060301@mesh.ad.jp> From: "Eric Vyncke (evyncke)" To: "Seiichi Kawamura" Cc: "Jared Mauch" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 17 Aug 2010 06:55:56.0709 (UTC) FILETIME=[3DF89550:01CB3DD9] Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: [Changing slightly to a different angle] I agree with most people that pingable interfaces on all core routers = are very useful/interesting to say the least (even if I do not operate a = SP network, I get the idea :-)). >From the security perspective, having hidden/not reachable router = interfaces is also very useful :)=20 There are a couple of ways of achieving this: from an infrastructure ACL = deployed at the edge (easier to do in IPv6 thanks to new addressing = plan), to using ULA on the interfaces (+ a global as ICMP source), to = using only LLA (and a few other techniques). Which technique is used nowadays in IPv6 network? I guess that infra = ACL are used (parity with IPv4) or am I wrong? Regards -=E9ric From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Aug 17 01:26:27 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F3723A6784 for ; Tue, 17 Aug 2010 01:26:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id d08kUCh2RcCY for ; Tue, 17 Aug 2010 01:26:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49AE63A6872 for ; Tue, 17 Aug 2010 01:26:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OlHQS-0004Hv-Gi for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Tue, 17 Aug 2010 08:21:40 +0000 Received: from [2001:670:86:3001::1] (helo=netcore.fi) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OlHQQ-0004HY-0q for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 17 Aug 2010 08:21:38 +0000 Received: from netcore.fi (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by netcore.fi (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id o7H8KwiF002007 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 17 Aug 2010 11:20:58 +0300 Received: from localhost (pekkas@localhost) by netcore.fi (8.13.8/8.13.8/Submit) with ESMTP id o7H8Ku8t002004; Tue, 17 Aug 2010 11:20:56 +0300 Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 11:20:56 +0300 (EEST) From: Pekka Savola To: Olivier Vautrin cc: Fernando Gont , Jeroen Massar , "v6ops@ops.ietf.org" , "ipv6@ietf.org" Subject: draft-ietf-ipngwg-p2p-pingpong-00.txt vs RFC4443 In-Reply-To: <84600D05C20FF943918238042D7670FD36D708817A@EMBX01-HQ.jnpr.net> Message-ID: References: <4C68F1E1.2090003@gont.com.ar> <4C68FD84.80905@unfix.org> <4C6920F8.7010505@gont.com.ar> <84600D05C20FF943918238042D7670FD36D708817A@EMBX01-HQ.jnpr.net> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (LRH 1167 2008-08-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; format=flowed; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.96.1 at otso.netcore.fi X-Virus-Status: Clean Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: Hi, I changed the subject, because the original intent was lost in the weeds. On Mon, 16 Aug 2010, Olivier Vautrin wrote: > It is clear that there is one more action done on the packet with > RFC4443. But this has no impact on shipping ASIC based routers. It > is difficult to say though if some smaller routers could be > impacted. This, and what Ole Troan wrote on interface lookup, is interesting. RFC4443 requires checking that destination address matches the subnet prefix. Is this the hot issue? Note that pingpong-00 document did not have this requirement; the specification was different (incoming/outgoing interface). Does this have different implications on the feasibility of implementation? FWIW, "Packet may be forwarded back on the received interface" is actually, AFAIK, used in certain PE routerscenarios where you ping yourself over a p2p link. -- Pekka Savola "You each name yourselves king, yet the Netcore Oy kingdom bleeds." Systems. Networks. Security. -- George R.R. Martin: A Clash of Kings From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Aug 17 01:54:38 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61AD83A6872 for ; Tue, 17 Aug 2010 01:54:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.143 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.143 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, RDNS_NONE=0.1, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Z4Dbbs0qwvx5 for ; Tue, 17 Aug 2010 01:54:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3706A3A6814 for ; Tue, 17 Aug 2010 01:54:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OlHuy-0009CZ-5C for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Tue, 17 Aug 2010 08:53:12 +0000 Received: from [193.251.215.91] (helo=relais-inet.francetelecom.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OlHuu-0009BY-5j for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 17 Aug 2010 08:53:08 +0000 Received: from omfedm05.si.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.1]) by omfedm10.si.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id D335D26434A; Tue, 17 Aug 2010 10:53:05 +0200 (CEST) Received: from puexch91.nanterre.francetelecom.fr (unknown [10.101.44.48]) by omfedm05.si.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id B505135C016; Tue, 17 Aug 2010 10:53:05 +0200 (CEST) Received: from PUEXCB1B.nanterre.francetelecom.fr ([10.101.44.13]) by puexch91.nanterre.francetelecom.fr ([10.101.44.48]) with mapi; Tue, 17 Aug 2010 10:53:05 +0200 From: To: "draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines@tools.ietf.org" CC: "kurtis@kurtis.pp.se" , "rbonica@juniper.net" , "v6ops@ops.ietf.org" , Fred Baker Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 10:53:04 +0200 Subject: RE: draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC Thread-Topic: draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC Thread-Index: Acs8pg+nNQajF6voTHGlZG69qKmHRABQY8TQ Message-ID: <9230_1282035185_4C6A4DF1_9230_226463_1_94C682931C08B048B7A8645303FDC9F312F735D0D7@PUEXCB1B.nanterre.francetelecom.fr> References: <018544C5-8D1E-412A-B6E4-F12623E66366@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <018544C5-8D1E-412A-B6E4-F12623E66366@cisco.com> Accept-Language: fr-FR Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: fr-FR Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_94C682931C08B048B7A8645303FDC9F312F735D0D7PUEXCB1Bnante_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-PMX-Version: 5.5.9.395186, Antispam-Engine: 2.7.2.376379, Antispam-Data: 2010.8.17.81216 Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: --_000_94C682931C08B048B7A8645303FDC9F312F735D0D7PUEXCB1Bnante_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear authors, The draft currently states the following: "4.3. IPv6-Only Core Network An emerging deployment model uses IPv6 as the dominant protocol at a service provider network, and tunnels IPv4 through this network in a manner converse to the one described in the previous section. There are several motivations for choosing this deployment model: o There may not be enough public or private IPv4 addresses to support network management functions in an end-to-end fashion, without segmenting the network into small parts with overlapping address space. o IPv4 address sharing among subscribers may involve new address translation nodes within the service provider's network. IPv6 can be used to reach these nodes. Normal IPv4 routing is insufficient for this purpose, as the same addresses would be used in several parts of the network. o It may be simpler for the service provider to employ a single- version network. The recommended tool for this model is Dual Stack Lite [I-D.ietf-softwire-dual-stack-lite]. Dual Stack Lite provides both relief for IPv4 address shortage and makes forward progress on IPv6 deployment, by moving service provider networks and IPv4 traffic over IPv6. Given this IPv6 connectivity, as a side-effect it becomes easy to provide IPv6 connectivity all the way to the end users." DS-Lite as currently defined in I-D.ietf-softwire-dual-stack-lite cannot be= used in an IPv6-only SP network unless it is located at the boundaries of = that networks (but this may have some issues such as no optimal routing pat= h for intra-domain communications). A detailed solution of the deployment o= f DS-Lite in IPv6-only domain is defined in http://tools.ietf.org/html/draf= t-boucadair-dslite-interco-v4v6-04. Adding a reference to this I-D would be more appropriate. Cheers, Med ________________________________ De : owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] De la part = de Fred Baker Envoy=E9 : dimanche 15 ao=FBt 2010 20:00 =C0 : v6ops@ops.ietf.org Cc : kurtis@kurtis.pp.se; rbonica@juniper.net Objet : draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC This is to initiate a two week working group last call of draft-arkko-ipv6-= transition-guidelines. Please read it now. If you find nits (spelling error= s, minor suggested wording changes, etc), comment to the authors; if you fi= nd greater issues, such as disagreeing with a statement or finding addition= al issues that need to be addressed, please post your comments to the list. We are looking specifically for comments on the importance of the document = as well as its content. If you have read the document and believe it to be = of operational utility, that is also an important comment to make. ********************************* This message and any attachments (the "message") are confidential and inten= ded solely for the addressees.=20 Any unauthorised use or dissemination is prohibited. Messages are susceptible to alteration.=20 France Telecom Group shall not be liable for the message if altered, change= d or falsified. If you are not the intended addressee of this message, please cancel it imm= ediately and inform the sender. ******************************** --_000_94C682931C08B048B7A8645303FDC9F312F735D0D7PUEXCB1Bnante_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear authors,
 
The draft currently states the=20 following:
 

"4.3= .  IPv6-Only Core Network

 

 = ; =20 An emerging deployment model uses IPv6 as the dominant protocol at= =20 a

 = ; =20 service provider network, and tunnels IPv4 through this network in= =20 a

 = ; =20 manner converse to the one described in the previous section. =20 There

 = ; =20 are several motivations for choosing this deployment=20 model:

 

 = ; =20 o  There may not be en= ough=20 public or private IPv4 addresses to<= /P>

      support n= etwork=20 management functions in an end-to-end=20 fashion,

      without= =20 segmenting the network into small parts with=20 overlapping

      address= =20 space.

 

 = ; =20 o  IPv4 address sharin= g among=20 subscribers may involve new address<= /P>

      translati= on=20 nodes within the service provider's network.  IPv6=20 can

      be used t= o reach=20 these nodes.  Normal IPv4 rou= ting is=20 insufficient

      for this= =20 purpose, as the same addresses would be used in=20 several

      parts of = the=20 network.

 

 = ; =20 o  It may be simpler f= or the=20 service provider to employ a single-=

      version= =20 network.

 

 = ; =20 The recommended tool for this model is Dual Stack=20 Lite

 = ; =20 [I-D.ietf-softwire-dual-stack-lite].  Dual Stack Lite provides=20 both

 = ; =20 relief for IPv4 address shortage and makes forward progress on=20 IPv6

 = ; =20 deployment, by moving service provider networks and IPv4 traffic=20 over

 = ; =20 IPv6.  Given this IPv6= =20 connectivity, as a side-effect it becomes easy<= /P>

 &nbs= p;=20 to provide IPv6 connectivity all the way to the end users."

<= /SPAN>
 
DS-Lite as currently defined in=20 I-D.ietf-softwire-dual-stack-lite cannot be used in an IPv6-only SP ne= twork=20 unless it is located at the boundaries of that networks (but this may have = some=20 issues such as no optimal routing path for intra-domain communications= ).=20 A detailed solution of the deployment of DS-Lite in IPv6-only dom= ain=20 is defined in = http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-boucadair-dslite-interco-v4v6-04.
 
Adding a reference to this I-D would be more=20 appropriate.
 
Cheers,
Med

De : owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org=20 [mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] De la part de Fred=20 Baker
Envoy=E9 : dimanche 15 ao=FBt 2010 20:00
=C0&nbs= p;:=20 v6ops@ops.ietf.org
Cc : kurtis@kurtis.pp.se;=20 rbonica@juniper.net
Objet :=20 draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC

This is to initiate a two week working group last call of draft-arkko-ipv6-transi= tion-guidelines.=20 Please read it now. If you find nits (spelling errors, minor suggested word= ing=20 changes, etc), comment to the authors; if you find greater issues, such as= =20 disagreeing with a statement or finding additional issues that need to be= =20 addressed, please post your comments to the list.

We are looking specifically for comments on the importance of the= =20 document as well as its content. If you have read the document and believe = it to=20 be of operational utility, that is also an important comment to=20 make.
*********************************
This message and any attachments (the "message") are confidential and inten=
ded solely for the addressees.=20
Any unauthorised use or dissemination is prohibited.
Messages are susceptible to alteration.=20
France Telecom Group shall not be liable for the message if altered, change=
d or falsified.
If you are not the intended addressee of this message, please cancel it imm=
ediately and inform the sender.
********************************
--_000_94C682931C08B048B7A8645303FDC9F312F735D0D7PUEXCB1Bnante_-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Aug 17 03:05:48 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9CBE23A6934 for ; Tue, 17 Aug 2010 03:05:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.196 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.196 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.701, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NPD6HuIpr+PG for ; Tue, 17 Aug 2010 03:05:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9ACC53A6877 for ; Tue, 17 Aug 2010 03:05:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OlIzq-000Kak-Iv for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Tue, 17 Aug 2010 10:02:18 +0000 Received: from [64.102.122.148] (helo=rtp-iport-1.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OlIzn-000KaL-W5 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 17 Aug 2010 10:02:16 +0000 Authentication-Results: rtp-iport-1.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AvsEADT7aUxAZnwM/2dsb2JhbACgO3GgbJwNhTcEiWc X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.55,381,1278288000"; d="scan'208";a="148545353" Received: from rtp-core-1.cisco.com ([64.102.124.12]) by rtp-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 17 Aug 2010 10:02:14 +0000 Received: from dhcp-osl-vl300-64-103-53-114.cisco.com (dhcp-osl-vl300-64-103-53-114.cisco.com [64.103.53.114]) by rtp-core-1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o7HA2D05016703; Tue, 17 Aug 2010 10:02:14 GMT Subject: Re: ping-pong phenomenon with p2p links & /127 prefixes Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1081) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Ole Troan In-Reply-To: <4C69EA96.9060301@mesh.ad.jp> Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 12:02:06 +0200 Cc: Jared Mauch , "v6ops@ops.ietf.org" , "ipv6@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <87FAAB8A-344A-4F79-A7A1-342DC0233AC5@cisco.com> References: <9EA50843-72B1-4E16-AE0E-58AC32D9C8C9@cisco.com> <615459EE-4132-4AFC-90EE-FF6772946B98@cisco.com> <20100816.225221.74734208.sthaug@nethelp.no> <2CCCB85D-8827-414F-8E5B-6D4EB57774C3@cisco.com> <7ED0F40B-156D-4D6E-B673-731499AB9CCD@puck.nether.net> <4C69D188.5000204@mesh.ad.jp> <4C69EA96.9060301@mesh.ad.jp> To: Seiichi Kawamura X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1081) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: Seiichi-san, >> BGP peerings and what not could use link-local addresses. e.g: >>=20 >> router A -------------- router B >> fe80::1 fe80::2 >> dead:beef::1/128 c001:cafe::2/128 >=20 > if > I get a BGP neighbor down message with fe80::2 > then > what address do I ping, trace? I can look at config of router A > and my address is dead:beef::1. What's the other side's global = address? > If router B isn't mine, I may not have a clue. >=20 > The challenge here is that we don't always have the knowledge of > whats on the other side of the router. When you have tons of these > links on one router, this is just making trouble shooting harder. >=20 > Even if I did know the other side's global address, monitoring pings > cannot be sent to fe80::2. We'll have to ping c001:cafe::2 and > manually link that status with fe80::2 peering session on the NMS. > I would hate to do that with hundreds of sessions running inside my = network. > That's always been a causes mistakes. We want to monitor what's > acutally running and not some alias address. yes, I see that point. how do you troubleshoot when you get a OSPFv3, RIP, or ISIS neighbor = down message? cause then you'd only have a link-local address or a CLNS address. or is = BGP troubleshooting different in some way? this is a solvable problem. it could be done through a management = system, better support in routers, a script pinging the link-local = address from the router, and I'm sure lots of other solutions. I'm trying to understand if this is "just" resistance to change (yeah, I = know both too little and too much got changed with IPv6.) with the = argument being that "this is how we have done it for the last 20 years = and we will continue to do it this way whatever argument you make", or = if there are real technical and operational issues with link-local only = (optionally with /128) p2p links. we as the IETF community need operator input and we need to understand = operational complexities. thanks for replying.=20 (and perhaps even Randy with his ever so charming ways also think so.) cheers, Ole= From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Aug 17 04:14:59 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0632F3A6926 for ; Tue, 17 Aug 2010 04:14:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.552 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.552 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.504, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oQd+TEKqPdwS for ; Tue, 17 Aug 2010 04:14:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 016693A6848 for ; Tue, 17 Aug 2010 04:14:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OlK4y-0005Ph-NE for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Tue, 17 Aug 2010 11:11:40 +0000 Received: from [195.1.209.33] (helo=bizet.nethelp.no) by psg.com with smtp (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OlK4v-0005P2-Hk for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 17 Aug 2010 11:11:38 +0000 Received: (qmail 10694 invoked from network); 17 Aug 2010 11:11:35 -0000 Received: from bizet.nethelp.no (HELO localhost) (195.1.209.33) by bizet.nethelp.no with SMTP; 17 Aug 2010 11:11:35 -0000 Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 13:11:35 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <20100817.131135.74661361.sthaug@nethelp.no> To: ot@cisco.com Cc: kawamucho@mesh.ad.jp, v6ops@ops.ietf.org, ipv6@ietf.org Subject: Re: ping-pong phenomenon with p2p links & /127 prefixes From: sthaug@nethelp.no In-Reply-To: <87FAAB8A-344A-4F79-A7A1-342DC0233AC5@cisco.com> References: <4C69EA96.9060301@mesh.ad.jp> <87FAAB8A-344A-4F79-A7A1-342DC0233AC5@cisco.com> X-Mailer: Mew version 3.3 on Emacs 21.3 / Mule 5.0 (SAKAKI) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: > > Even if I did know the other side's global address, monitoring pings > > cannot be sent to fe80::2. We'll have to ping c001:cafe::2 and > > manually link that status with fe80::2 peering session on the NMS. > > I would hate to do that with hundreds of sessions running inside my network. > > That's always been a causes mistakes. We want to monitor what's > > acutally running and not some alias address. > > yes, I see that point. > how do you troubleshoot when you get a OSPFv3, RIP, or ISIS neighbor down message? > cause then you'd only have a link-local address or a CLNS address. or is BGP troubleshooting different in some way? As of right now, we also have IPv4 addresses on the same links. The traps we receive normally include enough info (e.g. circuit id, interface name, IP address, whatever) that we can easily identify the link. Having links with only IPv6 link-local addresses *and* no further info included in the traps would be unacceptable. All our core links are configured with "normal" (global) IPv6 addresses. We are fully aware of the fact that the routers also use IPv6 link local addresses as *next hop* for most protocols (e.g. iBGP, IS-IS). We don't deal with these link local addresses at all under normal circumstances - instead we deal with the interface names that the routers also helpfully tell us. Similarly, all our IPv6 eBGP peerings are configured with global IPv6 addresses - here the IPv6 next hop is also a global IPv6 address. So, to sum up: yes, we know that the IPv6 link local addresses exist on our routers, no we don't normally "deal" with these addresses in any way. Steinar Haug, Nethelp consulting, sthaug@nethelp.no From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Aug 17 04:37:12 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38F053A68C8 for ; Tue, 17 Aug 2010 04:37:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.192 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.192 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.004, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fXI2kO1qfxUt for ; Tue, 17 Aug 2010 04:37:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE0F73A6803 for ; Tue, 17 Aug 2010 04:37:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OlKRj-000958-RX for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Tue, 17 Aug 2010 11:35:11 +0000 Received: from [202.32.8.206] (helo=tyo202.gate.nec.co.jp) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OlKRg-000934-Ml for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 17 Aug 2010 11:35:08 +0000 Received: from mailgate3.nec.co.jp ([10.7.69.193]) by tyo202.gate.nec.co.jp (8.13.8/8.13.4) with ESMTP id o7HBZ4rP027865; Tue, 17 Aug 2010 20:35:04 +0900 (JST) Received: (from root@localhost) by mailgate3.nec.co.jp (8.11.7/3.7W-MAILGATE-NEC) id o7HBZ4008697; Tue, 17 Aug 2010 20:35:04 +0900 (JST) Received: from bgas200085.sys.biglobe.nec.co.jp (bgas200085.sys.biglobe.nec.co.jp [10.82.141.45]) by mailsv4.nec.co.jp (8.13.8/8.13.4) with ESMTP id o7HBZ3P3010586; Tue, 17 Aug 2010 20:35:03 +0900 (JST) Received: from mail.sys.biglobe.nec.co.jp (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by bgas200085.sys.biglobe.nec.co.jp (BINGO/BINGO/06101717) with ESMTP id o7HBZ36b001824; Tue, 17 Aug 2010 20:35:03 +0900 Received: from mail.sys.biglobe.nec.co.jp (bgsx5626.sys.biglobe.nec.co.jp [10.18.151.10]) (envelope-from kawamucho@mesh.ad.jp) by mail.sys.biglobe.nec.co.jp (BINGO/BINGO/10031711) with ESMTP id o7HBZ3Rq031319 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 17 Aug 2010 20:35:03 +0900 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (edonet065.sys.biglobe.nec.co.jp [10.19.137.65]) (authenticated bits=0) (envelope-from kawamucho@mesh.ad.jp) by mail.sys.biglobe.nec.co.jp (BINGO/BINGO/10031711) with ESMTP id o7HBZ3KZ004115 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 17 Aug 2010 20:35:03 +0900 Message-ID: <4C6A73E6.8040105@mesh.ad.jp> Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 20:35:02 +0900 From: Seiichi Kawamura User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.24 (Windows/20100228) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ole Troan CC: Jared Mauch , "v6ops@ops.ietf.org" , "ipv6@ietf.org" Subject: Re: ping-pong phenomenon with p2p links & /127 prefixes References: <9EA50843-72B1-4E16-AE0E-58AC32D9C8C9@cisco.com> <615459EE-4132-4AFC-90EE-FF6772946B98@cisco.com> <20100816.225221.74734208.sthaug@nethelp.no> <2CCCB85D-8827-414F-8E5B-6D4EB57774C3@cisco.com> <7ED0F40B-156D-4D6E-B673-731499AB9CCD@puck.nether.net> <4C69D188.5000204@mesh.ad.jp> <4C69EA96.9060301@mesh.ad.jp> <87FAAB8A-344A-4F79-A7A1-342DC0233AC5@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <87FAAB8A-344A-4F79-A7A1-342DC0233AC5@cisco.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.96.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hi Ole-san Ole Troan wrote: > Seiichi-san, > >>> BGP peerings and what not could use link-local addresses. e.g: >>> >>> router A -------------- router B >>> fe80::1 fe80::2 >>> dead:beef::1/128 c001:cafe::2/128 >> if >> I get a BGP neighbor down message with fe80::2 >> then >> what address do I ping, trace? I can look at config of router A >> and my address is dead:beef::1. What's the other side's global address? >> If router B isn't mine, I may not have a clue. >> >> The challenge here is that we don't always have the knowledge of >> whats on the other side of the router. When you have tons of these >> links on one router, this is just making trouble shooting harder. >> >> Even if I did know the other side's global address, monitoring pings >> cannot be sent to fe80::2. We'll have to ping c001:cafe::2 and >> manually link that status with fe80::2 peering session on the NMS. >> I would hate to do that with hundreds of sessions running inside my network. >> That's always been a causes mistakes. We want to monitor what's >> acutally running and not some alias address. > > yes, I see that point. > how do you troubleshoot when you get a OSPFv3, RIP, or ISIS neighbor down message? We're sort of drifting away from the original /127 /128 discussion, but I think this is a good point so I'll make a comment on this one. My router is configured with 2001:db8:aaaa:bbbb::bbbb:1 fe80::bbbb:1 the "bbbb" wich is the 48 bit to 64 bit is copied to the next to the last 16-bit field. We do this so when we ge an ospf neighbor down, we can guess the global address easily. When we do show ipv6 ospf neighbor, we can guess the global address from the output. We still need to figure out the aaaa but that's allocated on a wider scale versus the /64 which is allocated to each link. (note: ethernet links and not /127) I don't use /127 internally, but if I did, this addressing scheme will not work. I'll need some other way to work around. I don't run RIP (not anymore), and ISIS, but that's how i do things. Some others do it other ways, like mapping the Ipv4 address to the interface identifier to achieve the same goal. I don't do that because someday I hope I won't have to operate dual stack networks and just be single stack IPv6. I would loooooooooove to have show ipv6 ospf neighbor give me a global address output. > cause then you'd only have a link-local address or a CLNS address. or is BGP troubleshooting different in some way? yes. In two ways. One, in BGP we only have to deal with a single address (not technically, but operationally we don't have to care about the link local). Two, in BGP we have to deal with the unknown. Your neighbor may not disclose all the information to you. In OSPF, its your own little world most of the time. BTW, I tried link-local BGP peering once many years ago, and swore to myself to never do it again. > this is a solvable problem. it could be done through a management system, better support in routers, a script pinging the link-local address from the router, and I'm sure lots of other solutions. yes, I understand your point. There isn't a solution available to me on my current router, but if there was better support for ospf, I would appreciate the implementation very much. However, for addressing of links, dealing with the unkown is complex enough, that having special odd addressing structures (like not setting a global or setting some odd /128)on that link does not seem like a choice that would speed up troubleshooting. That's a risk that many operators would not really want to take. Even if the link is not used by BGP and only by OSPF, having a uniform simple design throught a routing domain is essential in running a 24/365 NOC team. The requirements of the NOC team ultimately decide the happiness of the customer. > I'm trying to understand if this is "just" resistance to change (yeah, I know both too little and too much got changed with IPv6.) with the argument being that "this is how we have done it for the last 20 years and we will continue to do it this way whatever argument you make", or if there are real technical and operational issues with link-local only (optionally with /128) p2p links. > > we as the IETF community need operator input and we need to understand operational complexities. thanks for replying. Operators need IETF guidance as well. Especially in times like these. Thanks for asking :-) Regards, Seiichi > (and perhaps even Randy with his ever so charming ways also think so.) > > cheers, > Ole -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (MingW32) iEYEARECAAYFAkxqc+UACgkQcrhTYfxyMkIQzACfXHnOmqzwwoGNEivNaFy5A+Qy lGQAnR0mZW5kkEtTCJgqk+3vXaDYs1R8 =fYod -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Aug 17 04:52:39 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF1AA3A6803 for ; Tue, 17 Aug 2010 04:52:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MCdR9Zh88iWJ for ; Tue, 17 Aug 2010 04:52:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2ED993A694E for ; Tue, 17 Aug 2010 04:52:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OlKiS-000BrR-F0 for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Tue, 17 Aug 2010 11:52:28 +0000 Received: from [2001:470:8859:cafe:20c:29ff:fec5:e30a] (helo=mail.suspicious.org) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OlKiP-000Bqu-3O for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 17 Aug 2010 11:52:25 +0000 Received: from squidrock.home (pool-96-242-157-154.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net [96.242.157.154]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.suspicious.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 1D53580E4; Tue, 17 Aug 2010 07:52:22 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: ping-pong phenomenon with p2p links & /127 prefixes Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1081) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Truman Boyes In-Reply-To: <20100817.131135.74661361.sthaug@nethelp.no> Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 07:52:23 -0400 Cc: ot@cisco.com, kawamucho@mesh.ad.jp, v6ops@ops.ietf.org, ipv6@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <9DF93131-658C-48BA-A3D9-8516AAB16F07@suspicious.org> References: <4C69EA96.9060301@mesh.ad.jp> <87FAAB8A-344A-4F79-A7A1-342DC0233AC5@cisco.com> <20100817.131135.74661361.sthaug@nethelp.no> To: sthaug@nethelp.no X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1081) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: On 17/08/2010, at 7:11 AM, sthaug@nethelp.no wrote: >>> Even if I did know the other side's global address, monitoring pings >>> cannot be sent to fe80::2. We'll have to ping c001:cafe::2 and >>> manually link that status with fe80::2 peering session on the NMS. >>> I would hate to do that with hundreds of sessions running inside my = network. >>> That's always been a causes mistakes. We want to monitor what's >>> acutally running and not some alias address. >>=20 >> yes, I see that point. >> how do you troubleshoot when you get a OSPFv3, RIP, or ISIS neighbor = down message? >> cause then you'd only have a link-local address or a CLNS address. or = is BGP troubleshooting different in some way? >=20 > As of right now, we also have IPv4 addresses on the same links. The = traps > we receive normally include enough info (e.g. circuit id, interface = name, > IP address, whatever) that we can easily identify the link. Having = links > with only IPv6 link-local addresses *and* no further info included in = the > traps would be unacceptable. >=20 > All our core links are configured with "normal" (global) IPv6 = addresses. > We are fully aware of the fact that the routers also use IPv6 link = local > addresses as *next hop* for most protocols (e.g. iBGP, IS-IS). We = don't > deal with these link local addresses at all under normal circumstances = - > instead we deal with the interface names that the routers also = helpfully > tell us. >=20 > Similarly, all our IPv6 eBGP peerings are configured with global IPv6 > addresses - here the IPv6 next hop is also a global IPv6 address. >=20 > So, to sum up: yes, we know that the IPv6 link local addresses exist = on > our routers, no we don't normally "deal" with these addresses in any = way. >=20 > Steinar Haug, Nethelp consulting, sthaug@nethelp.no Greetings,=20 I share the same sentiments that Steinar has outlined in his post. In = the networks that I build, I would prefer to use IPv6 global addresses = for peering. I find any position that management systems will reduce the = operational complexity of peering with IPv6 link-locals to be academic; = the position of security in peering is an interesting one and in some = circumstances I would even consider the use of it, but I would certainly = not convert any large scale network to using link-local peering without = having the necessary code to manage all existing events.=20 I think that there will be considerable "resistance to change", and any = strong argument for the change needs to be outlined. At this time I have = not seen a strong one presented. We (all of us) have been running, = building, innovating changes to service provider networks for years and = in a market where margins become smaller and smaller, the case would = need to be presented where there was significant value in the change to = link-local peering.=20 Kind regards, Truman From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Aug 17 04:52:47 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDA343A694A for ; Tue, 17 Aug 2010 04:52:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.485 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.485 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.114, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aNAYwT012n9y for ; Tue, 17 Aug 2010 04:52:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 198743A6948 for ; Tue, 17 Aug 2010 04:52:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OlKhW-000BbO-S0 for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Tue, 17 Aug 2010 11:51:30 +0000 Received: from [2001:418:1::40] (helo=ran.psg.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OlKhU-000BZ3-H7 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 17 Aug 2010 11:51:28 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=rmac.psg.com.psg.com) by ran.psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OlKhJ-0006Q2-JU; Tue, 17 Aug 2010 11:51:17 +0000 Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 20:51:15 +0900 Message-ID: From: Randy Bush To: sthaug@nethelp.no Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org, ipv6@ietf.org Subject: Re: ping-pong phenomenon with p2p links & /127 prefixes In-Reply-To: <20100817.131135.74661361.sthaug@nethelp.no> References: <4C69EA96.9060301@mesh.ad.jp> <87FAAB8A-344A-4F79-A7A1-342DC0233AC5@cisco.com> <20100817.131135.74661361.sthaug@nethelp.no> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 (Almost Unreal) Emacs/22.3 Mule/5.0 (SAKAKI) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI 1.14.6 - "Maruoka") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: > So, to sum up: yes, we know that the IPv6 link local addresses exist > on our routers, no we don't normally "deal" with these addresses in > any way. and hope we don't have to, because they are not reachable, not uniqie, have no mapping to the way we think of and name the interfaces, ... and yes, margorie (a local name for ole), we're stuck in time wanting to think of and name interfaces in the unique and global way we have for 25 years. after all, the interfaces are unique and globally reachable. randy From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Aug 17 04:54:44 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B96F3A6952 for ; Tue, 17 Aug 2010 04:54:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.246 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.246 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.751, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9bTnEF4-Rvoa for ; 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c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=sender:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject :references:in-reply-to:x-enigmail-version:openpgp:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=GgbCt/mln7kxhsSyOw2E7X7avF2HKA9BzVjIhDn3tgWXyxMpLXKew9i09ZlMb9cZzx Ll5DY9i/0Sr4ZK0mswzMmd603yfJfAJ+cyj/xS7DzkDo5WCrG0pPEEG/1Kl8JEkRY241 /zUfQbhhQw7HV0yYfzQ7xBh/rv9aI6uQNSJGs= Received: by 10.100.109.13 with SMTP id h13mr7426382anc.193.1282046090825; Tue, 17 Aug 2010 04:54:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.2.3] ([190.245.181.90]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id t30sm12172849ann.7.2010.08.17.04.54.44 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Tue, 17 Aug 2010 04:54:49 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4C6A6C2F.1060409@gont.com.ar> Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 08:02:07 -0300 From: Fernando Gont User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.24 (Windows/20100228) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Pekka Savola CC: Olivier Vautrin , Jeroen Massar , "v6ops@ops.ietf.org" , "ipv6@ietf.org" Subject: Re: draft-ietf-ipngwg-p2p-pingpong-00.txt vs RFC4443 References: <4C68F1E1.2090003@gont.com.ar> <4C68FD84.80905@unfix.org> <4C6920F8.7010505@gont.com.ar> <84600D05C20FF943918238042D7670FD36D708817A@EMBX01-HQ.jnpr.net> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 0.96.0 OpenPGP: id=D076FFF1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: Hi, Pekka, >> It is clear that there is one more action done on the packet with >> RFC4443. But this has no impact on shipping ASIC based routers. It >> is difficult to say though if some smaller routers could be >> impacted. > > This, and what Ole Troan wrote on interface lookup, is interesting. > > RFC4443 requires checking that destination address matches the subnet > prefix. Is this the hot issue? > > Note that pingpong-00 document did not have this requirement; AFAICT, it does. It says: "....and the destination address on the packet seems to be on-link (in terms of Neighbor Discovery) on the point-to-point interface". Or am I missing something? > the > specification was different (incoming/outgoing interface). Does this > have different implications on the feasibility of implementation? It seems that the point is not really that of reduced performance, but rather that complying with this requirement would require a change in the silicon? If that's the case (i.e., no real performance implications), then it looks like an appropriate fix for this issue. -- which does not necessarily argue against /127 prefixes, as there are other reasons for using them (or, put another way, let's not correlate *this* with the fight over /127 prefixes). > FWIW, "Packet may be forwarded back on the received interface" is > actually, AFAIK, used in certain PE routerscenarios where you ping > yourself over a p2p link. Is the echo request/response really forwarded back on the received interface? (isn't the *response* that is forwarded back on the received interface?) Thanks! Kind regards, -- Fernando Gont e-mail: fernando@gont.com.ar || fgont@acm.org PGP Fingerprint: 7809 84F5 322E 45C7 F1C9 3945 96EE A9EF D076 FFF1 From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Aug 17 08:32:34 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13D693A6862 for ; Tue, 17 Aug 2010 08:32:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.196 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.196 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.701, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MFA7d3Lx9D-i for ; Tue, 17 Aug 2010 08:32:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BABAA3A6AAB for ; Tue, 17 Aug 2010 08:32:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OlO4v-000I6w-Km for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Tue, 17 Aug 2010 15:27:53 +0000 Received: from [209.85.213.66] (helo=mail-yw0-f66.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OlO4t-000I6b-57 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 17 Aug 2010 15:27:51 +0000 Received: by ywa8 with SMTP id 8so991989ywa.5 for ; Tue, 17 Aug 2010 08:27:50 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:sender:message-id:date:from :user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to :x-enigmail-version:openpgp:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=d/ZOgh2Y/ZaxjVlucuIdMZso7Wv2EnpR9QtEnM74BtY=; b=owCjIaRE1SW0EXBpGzX+ZUfvZcE8LCQRhvnDMsdrJv9ThM6m5AJu5F5MHhYehNdhIV udevmbozmacpHTa4GuX7xQu/IzbGkcP1fx6kyAXdlXM6ov1PcYvg9st4m3C/uJtPIgH3 rr1ihd9QvR3BBWLj/KgLukeL7Fouzjkf622uI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=sender:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject :references:in-reply-to:x-enigmail-version:openpgp:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=XB31OHweMKqJL64/8+fjXYSmENWZlDM2NRvTxIof5oC7k6g4vyUOaoLayZWzeBBJpZ bb8OpSVPjmCj6/PrEzta51tunjGLr8Qo7X+UuXSnWmXv+vughmLF1Y7L0uR3LuFPNGZM sJixsAmWxV/syf7rSYhDlM7Ond+fBcylJZPWo= Received: by 10.150.95.15 with SMTP id s15mr4125399ybb.13.1282058870499; Tue, 17 Aug 2010 08:27:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.2.3] ([190.245.181.90]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id t2sm1007066yba.2.2010.08.17.08.27.45 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Tue, 17 Aug 2010 08:27:49 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4C6A8B9F.1070008@gont.com.ar> Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 10:16:15 -0300 From: Fernando Gont User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.24 (Windows/20100228) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ole Troan CC: Jeroen Massar , sthaug@nethelp.no, v6ops@ops.ietf.org, ipv6@ietf.org Subject: Re: ping-pong phenomenon with p2p links & /127 prefixes References: <4C68F1E1.2090003@gont.com.ar> <4C68FD84.80905@unfix.org> <20100816.111224.41652855.sthaug@nethelp.no> <4C690673.1040400@unfix.org> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 0.96.0 OpenPGP: id=D076FFF1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: Ole Troan wrote: >> Thus, do ask Cisco and Juniper and other vendors where this now >> 'works' if this intentional, or if they might finally comply to the >> IPv6 specifications one day, as then you might better watch out for >> this as it will break your network. For the vendors that have it, >> it might maybe be an idea to have a 'disable subnetanycast' command >> or similar so that one can explicitly mark a prefix that way. > > it is intentional. there is a command to enable support for > subnet-router anycast if use of that is desired. What's the authoritative online documentation (and specific section of that document) for this behavior? Thanks! Kind regards, -- Fernando Gont e-mail: fernando@gont.com.ar || fgont@acm.org PGP Fingerprint: 7809 84F5 322E 45C7 F1C9 3945 96EE A9EF D076 FFF1 From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Aug 17 08:55:40 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B1813A6AAA for ; Tue, 17 Aug 2010 08:55:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.038 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.038 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.543, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id H1NcAgC7tD5T for ; Tue, 17 Aug 2010 08:55:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3788B3A69E7 for ; Tue, 17 Aug 2010 08:55:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OlOUr-000Lgd-Bk for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Tue, 17 Aug 2010 15:54:41 +0000 Received: from [64.102.122.149] (helo=rtp-iport-2.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OlOUp-000Lfp-0m for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 17 Aug 2010 15:54:39 +0000 Authentication-Results: rtp-iport-2.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AvsEAHZNakxAZnwN/2dsb2JhbACgPnGkWJwPhTcEhGOFBA X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.55,383,1278288000"; d="scan'208";a="148844739" Received: from rtp-core-2.cisco.com ([64.102.124.13]) by rtp-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 17 Aug 2010 15:54:37 +0000 Received: from dhcp-10-61-96-126.cisco.com (dhcp-10-61-96-126.cisco.com [10.61.96.126]) by rtp-core-2.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o7HFsanF003962; Tue, 17 Aug 2010 15:54:37 GMT Subject: Re: ping-pong phenomenon with p2p links & /127 prefixes Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1081) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Ole Troan In-Reply-To: <4C6A8B9F.1070008@gont.com.ar> Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 17:54:36 +0200 Cc: Jeroen Massar , sthaug@nethelp.no, v6ops@ops.ietf.org, ipv6@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <4C68F1E1.2090003@gont.com.ar> <4C68FD84.80905@unfix.org> <20100816.111224.41652855.sthaug@nethelp.no> <4C690673.1040400@unfix.org> <4C6A8B9F.1070008@gont.com.ar> To: Fernando Gont X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1081) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: >>> Thus, do ask Cisco and Juniper and other vendors where this now >>> 'works' if this intentional, or if they might finally comply to the >>> IPv6 specifications one day, as then you might better watch out for >>> this as it will break your network. For the vendors that have it, >>> it might maybe be an idea to have a 'disable subnetanycast' command >>> or similar so that one can explicitly mark a prefix that way. >>=20 >> it is intentional. there is a command to enable support for >> subnet-router anycast if use of that is desired. >=20 > What's the authoritative online documentation (and specific section of > that document) for this behavior? I know an oxymoron when I see one.=20 = http://www.cisco.com/en/US/docs/ios/ipv6/configuration/guide/ip6-addrg_bsc= _con.html#wp1052470 cheers, Ole= From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Aug 17 09:12:01 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D8BE3A699C for ; Tue, 17 Aug 2010 09:12:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -109.171 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-109.171 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.677, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, RDNS_NONE=0.1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id D5m180mlCl4J for ; Tue, 17 Aug 2010 09:11:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 614DE3A68EA for ; Tue, 17 Aug 2010 09:11:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OlOkL-000Nwq-UE for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Tue, 17 Aug 2010 16:10:41 +0000 Received: from [171.68.10.86] (helo=sj-iport-4.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OlOkI-000NwV-Ao for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 17 Aug 2010 16:10:38 +0000 Authentication-Results: sj-iport-4.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AlwGADdRakyrR7Ht/2dsb2JhbACYJIgacaR7nA+FNwSEMYU2 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.55,383,1278288000"; d="scan'208,217";a="173132628" Received: from sj-core-1.cisco.com ([171.71.177.237]) by sj-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP; 17 Aug 2010 16:10:37 +0000 Received: from stealth-10-32-244-220.cisco.com (stealth-10-32-244-220.cisco.com [10.32.244.220]) by sj-core-1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o7HGASBc026893; Tue, 17 Aug 2010 16:10:30 GMT Received: from [127.0.0.1] by stealth-10-32-244-220.cisco.com (PGP Universal service); Tue, 17 Aug 2010 09:10:37 -0700 X-PGP-Universal: processed; by stealth-10-32-244-220.cisco.com on Tue, 17 Aug 2010 09:10:37 -0700 Subject: Re: draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1081) From: Fred Baker In-Reply-To: <9230_1282035185_4C6A4DF1_9230_226463_1_94C682931C08B048B7A8645303FDC9F312F735D0D7@PUEXCB1B.nanterre.francetelecom.fr> Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 09:10:22 -0700 Cc: "draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines@tools.ietf.org" , "kurtis@kurtis.pp.se" , "rbonica@juniper.net" , "v6ops@ops.ietf.org" Message-Id: <3CAFA074-D243-4842-A32C-1DF66FE1B436@cisco.com> References: <018544C5-8D1E-412A-B6E4-F12623E66366@cisco.com> <9230_1282035185_4C6A4DF1_9230_226463_1_94C682931C08B048B7A8645303FDC9F312F735D0D7@PUEXCB1B.nanterre.francetelecom.fr> To: "" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1081) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-315-959028412 Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: --Apple-Mail-315-959028412 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Thanks for your comment. You are correct that there are some parameters = that need to be true of a network for ds-lite to be used in it. I'm = confused,though. Why would an individual submission that a working group = has not adopted be a better reference for a technology than the working = group draft? May I ask you to get the softwire working group chair to = support your viewpoint? On Aug 17, 2010, at 1:53 AM, = wrote: > Dear authors, > =20 > The draft currently states the following: > =20 > "4.3. IPv6-Only Core Network > =20 > An emerging deployment model uses IPv6 as the dominant protocol at = a > service provider network, and tunnels IPv4 through this network in = a > manner converse to the one described in the previous section. = There > are several motivations for choosing this deployment model: > =20 > o There may not be enough public or private IPv4 addresses to > support network management functions in an end-to-end fashion, > without segmenting the network into small parts with overlapping > address space. > =20 > o IPv4 address sharing among subscribers may involve new address > translation nodes within the service provider's network. IPv6 = can > be used to reach these nodes. Normal IPv4 routing is = insufficient > for this purpose, as the same addresses would be used in several > parts of the network. > =20 > o It may be simpler for the service provider to employ a single- > version network. > =20 > The recommended tool for this model is Dual Stack Lite > [I-D.ietf-softwire-dual-stack-lite]. Dual Stack Lite provides both > relief for IPv4 address shortage and makes forward progress on IPv6 > deployment, by moving service provider networks and IPv4 traffic = over > IPv6. Given this IPv6 connectivity, as a side-effect it becomes = easy > to provide IPv6 connectivity all the way to the end users." > =20 > DS-Lite as currently defined in I-D.ietf-softwire-dual-stack-lite = cannot be used in an IPv6-only SP network unless it is located at the = boundaries of that networks (but this may have some issues such as no = optimal routing path for intra-domain communications). A detailed = solution of the deployment of DS-Lite in IPv6-only domain is defined in = http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-boucadair-dslite-interco-v4v6-04. > =20 > Adding a reference to this I-D would be more appropriate. > =20 > Cheers, > Med >=20 > De : owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] De la = part de Fred Baker > Envoy=E9 : dimanche 15 ao=FBt 2010 20:00 > =C0 : v6ops@ops.ietf.org > Cc : kurtis@kurtis.pp.se; rbonica@juniper.net > Objet : draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC >=20 > This is to initiate a two week working group last call of = draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines. Please read it now. If you find = nits (spelling errors, minor suggested wording changes, etc), comment to = the authors; if you find greater issues, such as disagreeing with a = statement or finding additional issues that need to be addressed, please = post your comments to the list. >=20 > We are looking specifically for comments on the importance of the = document as well as its content. If you have read the document and = believe it to be of operational utility, that is also an important = comment to make. > ********************************* > This message and any attachments (the "message") are confidential and = intended solely for the addressees.=20 > Any unauthorised use or dissemination is prohibited. > Messages are susceptible to alteration.=20 > France Telecom Group shall not be liable for the message if altered, = changed or falsified. > If you are not the intended addressee of this message, please cancel = it immediately and inform the sender. > ******************************** --Apple-Mail-315-959028412 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 mohamed.boucadair@ora= nge-ftgroup.com> <mohamed.boucadair@ora= nge-ftgroup.com> wrote:

Dear = authors,
 
The draft currently = states the=20 following:
 
"4.3.  IPv6-Only Core = Network
 
  =20 An emerging deployment model uses IPv6 as the dominant protocol = at=20 a
  =20 service provider network, and tunnels IPv4 through this network = in=20 a
  =20 manner converse to the one described in the previous = section. =20 There
  =20 are several motivations for choosing this deployment=20 model:
 
  =20 o  There may not be = enough=20 public or private IPv4 addresses = to
      = support network=20 management functions in an end-to-end=20 fashion,
      without=20 segmenting the network into small parts with=20 overlapping
      address=20 space.
 
  =20 o  IPv4 address = sharing among=20 subscribers may involve new = address
      translation=20 nodes within the service provider's network.  IPv6=20 can
      be = used to reach=20 these nodes.  Normal IPv4 = routing is=20 insufficient
      for this=20 purpose, as the same addresses would be used in=20 several
      parts of the=20 network.
 
  =20 o  It may be = simpler for the=20 service provider to employ a = single-
      version=20 network.
 
  =20 The recommended tool for this model is Dual Stack=20 Lite
  =20 [I-D.ietf-softwire-dual-stack-lite].  Dual Stack Lite provides=20 both
  =20 relief for IPv4 address shortage and makes forward progress on=20 IPv6
  =20 deployment, by moving service provider networks and IPv4 traffic=20= over
  =20 IPv6.  Given this = IPv6=20 connectivity, as a side-effect it becomes = easy
  =20 to provide IPv6 connectivity all the way to the end users."
 
DS-Lite= as currently defined in=20 I-D.ietf-softwire-dual-stack-lite cannot be used in an IPv6-only SP = network=20 unless it is located at the boundaries of that networks (but this may = have some=20 issues such as no optimal routing path for intra-domain = communications).=20 A detailed solution of the deployment of DS-Lite in IPv6-only = domain=20 is defined in http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-boucadair-dslite-interco-v4v6-04.
 
Adding a reference to = this I-D would be more=20 appropriate.
 
Cheers,
Med

De : owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org=20 [mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] De la part de Fred=20 Baker
Envoy=E9 : dimanche 15 ao=FBt 2010 = 20:00
=C0 :=20 v6ops@ops.ietf.org
Cc :<= /b> kurtis@kurtis.pp.se;=20 rbonica@juniper.net
Objet&nb= sp;:=20 draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC

This is to initiate a two week working = group last call of draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines.=20 Please read it now. If you find nits (spelling errors, minor suggested = wording=20 changes, etc), comment to the authors; if you find greater issues, such = as=20 disagreeing with a statement or finding additional issues that need to = be=20 addressed, please post your comments to the list.

We are looking specifically for comments = on the importance of the=20 document as well as its content. If you have read the document and = believe it to=20 be of operational utility, that is also an important comment to=20 make.
*********************************
This message and any attachments (the "message") are confidential and =
intended solely for the addressees.=20
Any unauthorised use or dissemination is prohibited.
Messages are susceptible to alteration.=20
France Telecom Group shall not be liable for the message if altered, =
changed or falsified.
If you are not the intended addressee of this message, please cancel it =
immediately and inform the sender.
********************************

= --Apple-Mail-315-959028412-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Aug 17 09:36:14 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB5C73A6898 for ; Tue, 17 Aug 2010 09:36:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.727 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.727 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.232, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gcX-YtQ45j4r for ; Tue, 17 Aug 2010 09:36:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81D2E3A6957 for ; Tue, 17 Aug 2010 09:36:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OlP6H-0000yP-SE for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Tue, 17 Aug 2010 16:33:21 +0000 Received: from [213.123.20.127] (helo=c2bthomr09.btconnect.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OlP6F-0000y1-0e for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 17 Aug 2010 16:33:19 +0000 Received: from pc6 (host81-156-71-186.range81-156.btcentralplus.com [81.156.71.186]) by c2bthomr09.btconnect.com with SMTP id FZY83809; Tue, 17 Aug 2010 17:33:10 +0100 (BST) X-Mirapoint-IP-Reputation: reputation=Fair-1, source=Queried, refid=0001.0A0B0302.4C6AB9C6.0057, actions=tag Message-ID: <009e01cb3e20$d6a982e0$4001a8c0@gateway.2wire.net> From: "t.petch" To: "Ole Troan" Cc: "v6ops" References: <9EA50843-72B1-4E16-AE0E-58AC32D9C8C9@cisco.com> <615459EE-4132-4AFC-90EE-FF6772946B98@cisco.com> <20100816.225221.74734208.sthaug@nethelp.no> <2CCCB85D-8827-414F-8E5B-6D4EB57774C3@cisco.com><7ED0F40B-156D-4D6E-B673-731499AB9CCD@puck.nether.net><4C69D188.5000204@mesh.ad.jp><4C69EA96.9060301@mesh.ad.jp> <87FAAB8A-344A-4F79-A7A1-342DC0233AC5@cisco.com> Subject: Re: ping-pong phenomenon with p2p links & /127 prefixes Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 17:28:11 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Junkmail-Status: score=10/50, host=c2bthomr09.btconnect.com X-Junkmail-SD-Raw: score=unknown, refid=str=0001.0A0B0207.4C6AB9CC.0134,ss=1,fgs=0, ip=0.0.0.0, so=2009-07-20 21:54:04, dmn=5.7.1/2009-08-27, mode=single engine X-Junkmail-IWF: false Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: ---- Original Message ----- From: "Ole Troan" To: "Seiichi Kawamura" Cc: ; Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 12:02 PM > Seiichi-san, > > >> BGP peerings and what not could use link-local addresses. e.g: > >> > >> router A -------------- router B > >> fe80::1 fe80::2 > >> dead:beef::1/128 c001:cafe::2/128 > > > > if > > I get a BGP neighbor down message with fe80::2 > > then > > what address do I ping, trace? I can look at config of router A > > and my address is dead:beef::1. What's the other side's global address? > > If router B isn't mine, I may not have a clue. > > > > The challenge here is that we don't always have the knowledge of > > whats on the other side of the router. When you have tons of these > > links on one router, this is just making trouble shooting harder. > > > > Even if I did know the other side's global address, monitoring pings > > cannot be sent to fe80::2. We'll have to ping c001:cafe::2 and > > manually link that status with fe80::2 peering session on the NMS. > > I would hate to do that with hundreds of sessions running inside my network. > > That's always been a causes mistakes. We want to monitor what's > > acutally running and not some alias address. > > yes, I see that point. > how do you troubleshoot when you get a OSPFv3, RIP, or ISIS neighbor down message? > cause then you'd only have a link-local address or a CLNS address. or is BGP troubleshooting different in some way? I would stress that OSPF (eg) and BGP are different animals. With BGP, a boundary runs through the middle of a link, the two ends (at least of eBGP) belong to different administrations with, likely, different views of how to operate a network, potentially different equipment manufacturers etc. (Adherence to RFC matters more:-) With OSPF etc, a boundary, such as there is one, runs through the middle of a router, the link is all in one part (area, domain ...) and so the administration of the two ends is closely linked and operations can be too. Mostly there will be common operations, naming standards etc for the whole OSPF domain. The two are quite different to manage. Tom Petch > > this is a solvable problem. it could be done through a management system, better support in routers, a script pinging the link-local address from the router, and I'm sure lots of other solutions. > > I'm trying to understand if this is "just" resistance to change (yeah, I know both too little and too much got changed with IPv6.) with the argument being that "this is how we have done it for the last 20 years and we will continue to do it this way whatever argument you make", or if there are real technical and operational issues with link-local only (optionally with /128) p2p links. > > we as the IETF community need operator input and we need to understand operational complexities. thanks for replying. > (and perhaps even Randy with his ever so charming ways also think so.) > > cheers, > Ole > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Aug 17 10:47:45 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BD003A68C7 for ; Tue, 17 Aug 2010 10:47:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -8.495 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-8.495 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DeWOPsVHB1p8 for ; Tue, 17 Aug 2010 10:47:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB3893A68CC for ; Tue, 17 Aug 2010 10:47:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OlQCF-000AZs-HC for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Tue, 17 Aug 2010 17:43:35 +0000 Received: from [171.68.10.87] (helo=sj-iport-5.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OlQCD-000AZR-0F for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 17 Aug 2010 17:43:33 +0000 Authentication-Results: sj-iport-5.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AvsEAIVnakxAaMHG/2dsb2JhbACgPnGlUZwKhTcEhDGFNg X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.56,223,1280707200"; d="scan'208";a="241506890" Received: from syd-core-1.cisco.com ([64.104.193.198]) by sj-iport-5.cisco.com with ESMTP; 17 Aug 2010 17:43:07 +0000 Received: from [10.19.93.34] (sjc-mbaugher-8711.cisco.com [10.19.93.34]) by syd-core-1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o7HHh5cl020360; Tue, 17 Aug 2010 17:43:06 GMT From: Mark Baugher Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: draft-ietf-v6ops-cpe-simple-security/ Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 10:43:02 -0700 Message-Id: <60A8155D-7E38-42EA-8A0E-7C52A25F55BA@cisco.com> Cc: "Mr. Mika Saaranen" , "fabrice.fontaine@orange-ftgroup.com RD-MAPS" To: IPv6 Operations Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1081) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1081) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: I see that Publication has been requested of this draft for over 30 days = (http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-v6ops-cpe-simple-security/). Would someone kindly give me a clue as to when 'simple security' might appear as an RFC? thanks, Mark= From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Aug 17 13:50:33 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 589C03A685A for ; Tue, 17 Aug 2010 13:50:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.488 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.488 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.111, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id O4uAPoDqOBoB for ; Tue, 17 Aug 2010 13:50:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FC7E3A6868 for ; Tue, 17 Aug 2010 13:50:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OlT1l-0006Dd-8A for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Tue, 17 Aug 2010 20:44:57 +0000 Received: from [2001:418:1::40] (helo=ran.psg.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OlT1j-0006DB-28 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 17 Aug 2010 20:44:55 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=rmac.psg.com.psg.com) by ran.psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OlT1f-0007h0-Aw; Tue, 17 Aug 2010 20:44:51 +0000 Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 05:44:50 +0900 Message-ID: From: James Joyce To: Stephen Daedalus Cc: Molly Bloom , v6ops@ops.ietf.org, ipv6 deployment prevention Subject: Re: ping-pong phenomenon with p2p links & /127 prefixes In-Reply-To: <7CF277500761BD408EA4F0B131539B56024AD60C@TK5EX14MBXW653.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com> References: <4C69EA96.9060301@mesh.ad.jp> <87FAAB8A-344A-4F79-A7A1-342DC0233AC5@cisco.com> <20100817.131135.74661361.sthaug@nethelp.no> <7CF277500761BD408EA4F0B131539B56024AD60C@TK5EX14MBXW653.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 (Almost Unreal) Emacs/22.3 Mule/5.0 (SAKAKI) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI 1.14.6 - "Maruoka") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: dear stephen daedalus, > The whole point of IPv6 is to make addresses and prefixes plentiful. > If global addresses facilitate the management of peering, why exactly > would we not provide sufficient allocations to the network managers? who has said they are not provided? > Do we really believe that allocating prefixes to 100,000 or even > 1,000,000 interconnection points will deplete the stock? That would > just be less than 1 hundred thousandth or one 1 billionth of the > available space! this is off the wall. no one is talking about a lack of global addresses. we are talking about protocols which insist on not using them but use 'local' addresses insteady. james From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Aug 17 14:08:08 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7BA843A68C7 for ; Tue, 17 Aug 2010 14:08:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.49 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.49 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.109, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hwIu0FetBf1c for ; Tue, 17 Aug 2010 14:08:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CAAF3A684B for ; Tue, 17 Aug 2010 14:08:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OlTMe-00092T-V9 for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Tue, 17 Aug 2010 21:06:32 +0000 Received: from [2001:418:1::40] (helo=ran.psg.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OlTMc-00092E-Au for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 17 Aug 2010 21:06:30 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=rmac.psg.com.psg.com) by ran.psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OlTMM-0007kM-Db; Tue, 17 Aug 2010 21:06:14 +0000 Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 06:06:12 +0900 Message-ID: From: Randy Bush To: "t.petch" Cc: "Ole Troan" , "v6ops" Subject: Re: ping-pong phenomenon with p2p links & /127 prefixes In-Reply-To: <009e01cb3e20$d6a982e0$4001a8c0@gateway.2wire.net> References: <9EA50843-72B1-4E16-AE0E-58AC32D9C8C9@cisco.com> <615459EE-4132-4AFC-90EE-FF6772946B98@cisco.com> <20100816.225221.74734208.sthaug@nethelp.no> <2CCCB85D-8827-414F-8E5B-6D4EB57774C3@cisco.com> <7ED0F40B-156D-4D6E-B673-731499AB9CCD@puck.nether.net> <4C69D188.5000204@mesh.ad.jp> <4C69EA96.9060301@mesh.ad.jp> <87FAAB8A-344A-4F79-A7A1-342DC0233AC5@cisco.com> <009e01cb3e20$d6a982e0$4001a8c0@gateway.2wire.net> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 (Almost Unreal) Emacs/22.3 Mule/5.0 (SAKAKI) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI 1.14.6 - "Maruoka") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: > With OSPF etc, a boundary, such as there is one, runs through the > middle of a router, the link is all in one part (area, domain ...) and > so the administration of the two ends is closely linked and operations > can be too. igp can cross a confederation boundary which separates administrative entities. > With BGP, a boundary runs through the middle of a link, the two ends > (at least of eBGP) belong to different administrations with, likely, > different views of how to operate a network, potentially different > equipment manufacturers etc. (Adherence to RFC matters more:-) i know it will be a shock to wes and the cisco gang, but some providers are multi-vendor within a single administrative domain. :) randy From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Aug 17 17:47:41 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6E7A3A635F for ; Tue, 17 Aug 2010 17:47:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.486 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.486 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.310, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, J_CHICKENPOX_45=0.6, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HAFhHe2z3HGZ for ; Tue, 17 Aug 2010 17:47:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 578533A67E7 for ; Tue, 17 Aug 2010 17:47:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OlWk1-0004qg-J9 for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 00:42:53 +0000 Received: from [202.32.8.206] (helo=tyo202.gate.nec.co.jp) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OlWjx-0004pq-Pa for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 00:42:50 +0000 Received: from mailgate3.nec.co.jp ([10.7.69.160]) by tyo202.gate.nec.co.jp (8.13.8/8.13.4) with ESMTP id o7I0gkpC025601; 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Wed, 18 Aug 2010 09:42:45 +0900 Message-ID: <4C6B2C84.1060007@mesh.ad.jp> Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 09:42:44 +0900 From: Seiichi Kawamura User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.24 (Windows/20100228) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Eric Vyncke (evyncke)" CC: Jared Mauch , v6ops@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: ping-pong phenomenon with p2p links & /127 prefixes References: <9EA50843-72B1-4E16-AE0E-58AC32D9C8C9@cisco.com> <615459EE-4132-4AFC-90EE-FF6772946B98@cisco.com> <20100816.225221.74734208.sthaug@nethelp.no> <2CCCB85D-8827-414F-8E5B-6D4EB57774C3@cisco.com> <7ED0F40B-156D-4D6E-B673-731499AB9CCD@puck.nether.net> <4C69D188.5000204@mesh.ad.jp> <4C69EA96.9060301@mesh.ad.jp> <317616CE96204D49B5A1811098BA89500290F5E6@XMB-AMS-110.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <317616CE96204D49B5A1811098BA89500290F5E6@XMB-AMS-110.cisco.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.96.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Eric Vyncke (evyncke) wrote: > [Changing slightly to a different angle] > > I agree with most people that pingable interfaces on all core routers are very useful/interesting to say the least (even if I do not operate a SP network, I get the idea :-)). > >>From the security perspective, having hidden/not reachable router interfaces is also very useful :) > > There are a couple of ways of achieving this: from an infrastructure ACL deployed at the edge (easier to do in IPv6 thanks to new addressing plan), to using ULA on the interfaces (+ a global as ICMP source), to using only LLA (and a few other techniques). > > Which technique is used nowadays in IPv6 network? I guess that infra ACL are used (parity with IPv4) or am I wrong? Some enterprise customers using VPNs(IPsec and SSL) have this requirement. In many cases NAT plus some evil routing technique is used to hide, and ACL is used to deny reachability. This is in IPv4 world. In IPv6 world, nobody has requested VPN services and many VPN boxes still run only IPv4 so I really don't have a clue yet to what we'll do. We probably will not use ULA though. Regards, Seiichi > > Regards > > -éric > > > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (MingW32) iEYEARECAAYFAkxrLIMACgkQcrhTYfxyMkKccwCfTMxHKFrw9Q/TFiO0e3O+JA35 ifkAn06/FWbGQ3E/VFnEv3CF/5Wgh8RP =HKDE -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Aug 17 19:38:08 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04B573A6874 for ; Tue, 17 Aug 2010 19:38:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.299 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.299 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.300, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_45=0.6, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9kV2LDR9XyNG for ; Tue, 17 Aug 2010 19:38:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6ACF83A6867 for ; Tue, 17 Aug 2010 19:38:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OlYUN-000Gcy-Jq for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 02:34:51 +0000 Received: from [2001:470:8859:cafe:20c:29ff:fec5:e30a] (helo=mail.suspicious.org) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OlYUL-000GcT-3F for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 02:34:49 +0000 Received: from squidrock.home (pool-96-242-157-154.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net [96.242.157.154]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.suspicious.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 85F1880E4; Tue, 17 Aug 2010 22:34:40 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: ping-pong phenomenon with p2p links & /127 prefixes Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1081) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 From: Truman Boyes In-Reply-To: <4C6B2C84.1060007@mesh.ad.jp> Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 22:34:46 -0400 Cc: "Eric Vyncke (evyncke)" , Jared Mauch , v6ops@ops.ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <4B0E9FF6-1133-4814-AD4C-3CD6A8255986@suspicious.org> References: <9EA50843-72B1-4E16-AE0E-58AC32D9C8C9@cisco.com> <615459EE-4132-4AFC-90EE-FF6772946B98@cisco.com> <20100816.225221.74734208.sthaug@nethelp.no> <2CCCB85D-8827-414F-8E5B-6D4EB57774C3@cisco.com> <7ED0F40B-156D-4D6E-B673-731499AB9CCD@puck.nether.net> <4C69D188.5000204@mesh.ad.jp> <4C69EA96.9060301@mesh.ad.jp> <317616CE96204D49B5A1811098BA89500290F5E6@XMB-AMS-110.cisco.com> <4C6B2C84.1060007@mesh.ad.jp> To: Seiichi Kawamura X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1081) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: On 17/08/2010, at 8:42 PM, Seiichi Kawamura wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 >=20 > Eric Vyncke (evyncke) wrote: >> [Changing slightly to a different angle] >>=20 >> I agree with most people that pingable interfaces on all core routers = are very useful/interesting to say the least (even if I do not operate a = SP network, I get the idea :-)). >>=20 >>> =46rom the security perspective, having hidden/not reachable router = interfaces is also very useful :)=20 >>=20 >> There are a couple of ways of achieving this: from an infrastructure = ACL deployed at the edge (easier to do in IPv6 thanks to new addressing = plan), to using ULA on the interfaces (+ a global as ICMP source), to = using only LLA (and a few other techniques). >>=20 >> Which technique is used nowadays in IPv6 network? I guess that infra = ACL are used (parity with IPv4) or am I wrong? >=20 > Some enterprise customers using VPNs(IPsec and SSL) have this = requirement. > In many cases NAT plus some evil routing technique is used to hide, > and ACL is used to deny reachability. > This is in IPv4 world. In IPv6 world, nobody has requested > VPN services and many VPN boxes still run only IPv4 so > I really don't have a clue yet to what we'll do. > We probably will not use ULA though. >=20 > Regards, > Seiichi >=20 >>=20 >> Regards >>=20 >> -=E9ric >>=20 Hiding the internal addresses of infrastructure links in service = provider networks is generally done when the SP uses MPLS and TTL = propagation or decrementing is disabled. This works with ipv6 vpns in = MPLS today and is very common.=20 Truman From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Aug 17 23:14:44 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DDC33A69FF for ; Tue, 17 Aug 2010 23:14:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qGlq7fUZCbOR for ; Tue, 17 Aug 2010 23:14:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EEF233A68EC for ; Tue, 17 Aug 2010 23:14:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Olbqq-000B3e-JV for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 06:10:16 +0000 Received: from [2001:670:86:3001::1] (helo=netcore.fi) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Olbqn-000B37-R3 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 06:10:14 +0000 Received: from netcore.fi (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by netcore.fi (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id o7I69cMD031698 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 18 Aug 2010 09:09:38 +0300 Received: from localhost (pekkas@localhost) by netcore.fi (8.13.8/8.13.8/Submit) with ESMTP id o7I69aqQ031695; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 09:09:36 +0300 Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 09:09:36 +0300 (EEST) From: Pekka Savola To: Fernando Gont cc: Olivier Vautrin , Jeroen Massar , "v6ops@ops.ietf.org" , "ipv6@ietf.org" Subject: Re: draft-ietf-ipngwg-p2p-pingpong-00.txt vs RFC4443 In-Reply-To: <4C6A6C2F.1060409@gont.com.ar> Message-ID: References: <4C68F1E1.2090003@gont.com.ar> <4C68FD84.80905@unfix.org> <4C6920F8.7010505@gont.com.ar> <84600D05C20FF943918238042D7670FD36D708817A@EMBX01-HQ.jnpr.net> <4C6A6C2F.1060409@gont.com.ar> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (LRH 1167 2008-08-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; format=flowed; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.96.1 at otso.netcore.fi X-Virus-Status: Clean Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: On Tue, 17 Aug 2010, Fernando Gont wrote: > AFAICT, it does. It says: "....and the destination address on the packet > seems to be on-link (in terms of Neighbor Discovery) on the > point-to-point interface". Or am I missing something? Yes, you're right. I was not reading the text carefully enough. (Though "is on-link" vs "is of the same subnet prefix" are semantically two subtly different checks. Not sure if it matters in this case.) > It seems that the point is not really that of reduced performance, but > rather that complying with this requirement would require a change in > the silicon? > > If that's the case (i.e., no real performance implications), then it > looks like an appropriate fix for this issue. -- which does not > necessarily argue against /127 prefixes, as there are other reasons for > using them (or, put another way, let's not correlate *this* with the > fight over /127 prefixes). This issue was initially brought up by Google IPv6 presentation, proxying Juniper's statements, so it would probably best if either of them could clarify. >> FWIW, "Packet may be forwarded back on the received interface" is >> actually, AFAIK, used in certain PE routerscenarios where you ping >> yourself over a p2p link. > > Is the echo request/response really forwarded back on the received > interface? (isn't the *response* that is forwarded back on the received > interface?) You're probably right. I was likely confused on how this is actually done, and right now I can't find any written references on the "p2p self ping" troubleshooting technique I seem to recall. Olivier's note about the different scenario may still apply. -- Pekka Savola "You each name yourselves king, yet the Netcore Oy kingdom bleeds." Systems. Networks. Security. -- George R.R. Martin: A Clash of Kings From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Aug 17 23:14:54 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3D333A690A for ; Tue, 17 Aug 2010 23:14:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=x tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SLfP3xaZXwlN for ; Tue, 17 Aug 2010 23:14:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70A6F3A69FB for ; Tue, 17 Aug 2010 23:14:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Olbrt-000B9f-9j for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 06:11:21 +0000 Received: from [193.251.215.91] (helo=relais-inet.francetelecom.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Olbrp-000B8B-NJ for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 06:11:20 +0000 Received: from omfedm08.si.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.4]) by omfedm14.si.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 0607522C771; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 08:11:15 +0200 (CEST) Received: from PUEXCH51.nanterre.francetelecom.fr (unknown [10.101.44.31]) by omfedm08.si.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id AA323238066; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 08:11:14 +0200 (CEST) Received: from PUEXCB1B.nanterre.francetelecom.fr ([10.101.44.13]) by PUEXCH51.nanterre.francetelecom.fr ([10.101.44.31]) with mapi; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 08:11:14 +0200 From: To: Fred Baker CC: "draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines@tools.ietf.org" , "kurtis@kurtis.pp.se" , "rbonica@juniper.net" , "v6ops@ops.ietf.org" , "draft-boucadair-dslite-interco-v4v6@tools.ietf.org" Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 08:11:12 +0200 Subject: RE: draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC Thread-Topic: draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC Thread-Index: Acs+JrzYrA/ir69lTm677CbguDzaHQAcyXvg Message-ID: <26471_1282111874_4C6B7982_26471_204854_1_94C682931C08B048B7A8645303FDC9F312F735D258@PUEXCB1B.nanterre.francetelecom.fr> References: <018544C5-8D1E-412A-B6E4-F12623E66366@cisco.com> <9230_1282035185_4C6A4DF1_9230_226463_1_94C682931C08B048B7A8645303FDC9F312F735D0D7@PUEXCB1B.nanterre.francetelecom.fr> <3CAFA074-D243-4842-A32C-1DF66FE1B436@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <3CAFA074-D243-4842-A32C-1DF66FE1B436@cisco.com> Accept-Language: fr-FR Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: fr-FR Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="_004_94C682931C08B048B7A8645303FDC9F312F735D258PUEXCB1Bnante_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-PMX-Version: 5.5.9.395186, Antispam-Engine: 2.7.2.376379, Antispam-Data: 2010.8.18.55422 Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: --_004_94C682931C08B048B7A8645303FDC9F312F735D258PUEXCB1Bnante_ Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_94C682931C08B048B7A8645303FDC9F312F735D258PUEXCB1Bnante_" --_000_94C682931C08B048B7A8645303FDC9F312F735D258PUEXCB1Bnante_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Fred, My comment is technical and it is orthogonal to logistic issues (i.e., adop= tion of a WG document). DS-Lite as currently defined in the base softiwre d= ocument alone without any companion mechanism cannot fit the scenario you a= re describing in your draft. Nevertheless, this is the focus of the individ= ual draft I mentioned in my earlier message. That I-D specifies new interfa= ces and lists several options for the deployment of DS-Lite in an IPv6-only= domain while allowing for a stateless interconnection between the IPv6-onl= y domain and adjacent IPv4 ones. As for your question, we have requested to present the draft in the last IE= TF meeting, but unfortunately we didn't been allocated a slot. My co-author= can complete if required. FWIW, attached the presentation my co-authors pr= epared for the Maastricht meeting. Cheers, Med ________________________________ De : Fred Baker [mailto:fred@cisco.com] Envoy=E9 : mardi 17 ao=FBt 2010 18:10 =C0 : BOUCADAIR Mohamed NCPI/NAD/TIP Cc : draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines@tools.ietf.org; kurtis@kurtis.p= p.se; rbonica@juniper.net; v6ops@ops.ietf.org Objet : Re: draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC Thanks for your comment. You are correct that there are some parameters tha= t need to be true of a network for ds-lite to be used in it. I'm confused,t= hough. Why would an individual submission that a working group has not adop= ted be a better reference for a technology than the working group draft? Ma= y I ask you to get the softwire working group chair to support your viewpoi= nt? On Aug 17, 2010, at 1:53 AM, > > wrote: Dear authors, The draft currently states the following: "4.3. IPv6-Only Core Network An emerging deployment model uses IPv6 as the dominant protocol at a service provider network, and tunnels IPv4 through this network in a manner converse to the one described in the previous section. There are several motivations for choosing this deployment model: o There may not be enough public or private IPv4 addresses to support network management functions in an end-to-end fashion, without segmenting the network into small parts with overlapping address space. o IPv4 address sharing among subscribers may involve new address translation nodes within the service provider's network. IPv6 can be used to reach these nodes. Normal IPv4 routing is insufficient for this purpose, as the same addresses would be used in several parts of the network. o It may be simpler for the service provider to employ a single- version network. The recommended tool for this model is Dual Stack Lite [I-D.ietf-softwire-dual-stack-lite]. Dual Stack Lite provides both relief for IPv4 address shortage and makes forward progress on IPv6 deployment, by moving service provider networks and IPv4 traffic over IPv6. Given this IPv6 connectivity, as a side-effect it becomes easy to provide IPv6 connectivity all the way to the end users." DS-Lite as currently defined in I-D.ietf-softwire-dual-stack-lite cannot be= used in an IPv6-only SP network unless it is located at the boundaries of = that networks (but this may have some issues such as no optimal routing pat= h for intra-domain communications). A detailed solution of the deployment o= f DS-Lite in IPv6-only domain is defined in http://tools.ietf.org/html/draf= t-boucadair-dslite-interco-v4v6-04. Adding a reference to this I-D would be more appropriate. Cheers, Med ________________________________ De : owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owne= r-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] De la part de Fred Baker Envoy=E9 : dimanche 15 ao=FBt 2010 20:00 =C0 : v6ops@ops.ietf.org Cc : kurtis@kurtis.pp.se; rbonica@juniper.net Objet : draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC This is to initiate a two week working group last call of draft-arkko-ipv6-= transition-guidelines. Please read it now. If you find nits (spelling error= s, minor suggested wording changes, etc), comment to the authors; if you fi= nd greater issues, such as disagreeing with a statement or finding addition= al issues that need to be addressed, please post your comments to the list. We are looking specifically for comments on the importance of the document = as well as its content. If you have read the document and believe it to be = of operational utility, that is also an important comment to make. ********************************* This message and any attachments (the "message") are confidential and inten= ded solely for the addressees. Any unauthorised use or dissemination is prohibited. Messages are susceptible to alteration. France Telecom Group shall not be liable for the message if altered, change= d or falsified. If you are not the intended addressee of this message, please cancel it imm= ediately and inform the sender. ******************************** ********************************* This message and any attachments (the "message") are confidential and inten= ded solely for the addressees.=20 Any unauthorised use or dissemination is prohibited. Messages are susceptible to alteration.=20 France Telecom Group shall not be liable for the message if altered, change= d or falsified. If you are not the intended addressee of this message, please cancel it imm= ediately and inform the sender. ******************************** --_000_94C682931C08B048B7A8645303FDC9F312F735D258PUEXCB1Bnante_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear Fred,
 
My comment is technical and it is=20 orthogonal to logistic issues (i.e., adoption of a WG=20 document). DS-Lite as currently defined in the base softiwre document = alone=20 without any companion mechanism cannot fit the scenario you are= =20 describing in your draft. Nevertheless, this is the foc= us of=20 the individual draft I mentioned in my earlier message. That=20 I-D specifies new interfaces and lists several options for the deploym= ent=20 of DS-Lite in an IPv6-only domain while allowing for a stateless interconne= ction=20 between the IPv6-only domain and adjacent IPv4 ones.
 
As for your question, we have requested to = present=20 the draft in the last IETF meeting, but unfortunately we didn't been= =20 allocated a slot. My co-author can complete if required. FWIW, attached the= =20 presentation my co-authors prepared for the Maastricht=20 meeting. 
 
Cheers,
Med

De : Fred Baker [mailto:fred@cisco= .com]=20
Envoy=E9 : mardi 17 ao=FBt 2010 18:10
=C0 : = BOUCADAIR=20 Mohamed NCPI/NAD/TIP
Cc :=20 draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines@tools.ietf.org; kurtis@kurtis.pp.se;= =20 rbonica@juniper.net; v6ops@ops.ietf.org
Objet : Re:=20 draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC

Thanks for your comment. You are correct that there are some=20 parameters that need to be true of a network for ds-lite to be used in it. = I'm=20 confused,though. Why would an individual submission that a working group ha= s not=20 adopted be a better reference for a technology than the working group draft= ? May=20 I ask you to get the softwire working group chair to support your viewpoint?


On Aug 17, 2010, at 1:53 AM, <mohamed.boucadair@oran= ge-ftgroup.com>=20 <mohamed.boucadair@oran= ge-ftgroup.com>=20 wrote:

Dear authors,=
 
The draft currently states = the=20 following:
 
"4= .3.  IPv6-Only Core=20 Network
&nb= sp; =20 An emerging deployment model uses IPv6 as the dominant protocol at= =20 a
&nb= sp; =20 service provider network, and tunnels IPv4 through this network in= =20 a
&nb= sp; =20 manner converse to the one described in the previous section. =20 There
&nb= sp; =20 are several motivations for choosing this deployment=20 model:
&nb= sp; =20 o  There may not be = enough=20 public or private IPv4 addresses=20 to
      support= =20 network management functions in an end-to-end=20 fashion,
      without= =20 segmenting the network into small parts with=20 overlapping
      address= =20 space.
&nb= sp; =20 o  IPv4 address shar= ing=20 among subscribers may involve new=20 address
      transla= tion=20 nodes within the service provider's network.  IPv6=20 can
      be used= to=20 reach these nodes.  Normal = IPv4=20 routing is insufficient
      for thi= s=20 purpose, as the same addresses would be used in=20 several
      parts o= f the=20 network.
&nb= sp; =20 o  It may be simpler= for=20 the service provider to employ a=20 single-
      version= =20 network.
&nb= sp; =20 The recommended tool for this model is Dual Stack=20 Lite
&nb= sp; =20 [I-D.ietf-softwire-dual-stack-lite].  Dual Stack Lite provides=20 both
&nb= sp; =20 relief for IPv4 address shortage and makes forward progress on=20 IPv6
&nb= sp; =20 deployment, by moving service provider networks and IPv4 traffic= =20 over
&nb= sp; =20 IPv6.  Given this IP= v6=20 connectivity, as a side-effect it becomes=20 easy
 &n= bsp;=20 to provide IPv6 connectivity all the way to the end users."
 
DS-Lite as= currently=20 defined in I-D.ietf-softwire-dual-stack-lite cannot be used in an=20 IPv6-only SP network unless it is located at the boundaries of that netwo= rks=20 (but this may have some issues such as no optimal routing path for= =20 intra-domain communications). A detailed solution of the deploy= ment=20 of DS-Lite in IPv6-only domain is defined in http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-boucadair-dslite-interco-v4v6-04.
 
Adding a reference to this = I-D would=20 be more appropriate.
 
Cheers,
Med
=
De : owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org=20 [mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] De la part de Fred=20 Baker
Envoy=E9 : dimanche 15 ao=FBt 2010 20:00
=C0&n= bsp;:=20 v6ops@ops.ietf.org
Cc&nbs= p;:=20 kurtis@kurtis.pp.se; rbonica@juniper.net
Objet&n= bsp;:=20 draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC

This is to initiate a two week working group last call of <= SPAN=20 class=3DApple-style-span=20 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: medium; FONT-FAMILY: monospace">draft-arkko-ipv6-tran= sition-guidelines.=20 Please read it now. If you find nits (spelling errors, minor suggested wo= rding=20 changes, etc), comment to the authors; if you find greater issues, such a= s=20 disagreeing with a statement or finding additional issues that need to be= =20 addressed, please post your comments to the list.

We are looking specifically for comments on the importance of th= e=20 document as well as its content. If you have read the document and believ= e it=20 to be of operational utility, that is also an important comment to=20 make.
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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Wed Aug 18 00:28:53 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CB903A690A for ; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 00:28:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -109.188 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-109.188 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.693, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, RDNS_NONE=0.1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jJ0nqWnDOOag for ; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 00:28:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45A6C3A67A7 for ; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 00:28:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Old0q-000JEd-Hu for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 07:24:40 +0000 Received: from [171.71.176.70] (helo=sj-iport-1.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Old0k-000JDq-R3 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 07:24:35 +0000 Authentication-Results: sj-iport-1.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AvsEAOYna0yrR7Ht/2dsb2JhbACgRnGhdZt9hTcEhDGFOg X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.56,226,1280707200"; d="scan'208";a="353118192" Received: from sj-core-1.cisco.com ([171.71.177.237]) by sj-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 18 Aug 2010 07:24:34 +0000 Received: from stealth-10-32-244-220.cisco.com (stealth-10-32-244-220.cisco.com [10.32.244.220]) by sj-core-1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o7I7NJVG002522 for ; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 07:24:27 GMT Received: from [127.0.0.1] by stealth-10-32-244-220.cisco.com (PGP Universal service); Wed, 18 Aug 2010 00:24:34 -0700 X-PGP-Universal: processed; by stealth-10-32-244-220.cisco.com on Wed, 18 Aug 2010 00:24:34 -0700 From: Fred Baker Subject: Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines-04 Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 00:24:27 -0700 References: <20100818072300.531D43A6A24@core3.amsl.com> To: "v6ops@ops.ietf.org Operations" Message-Id: <44288F8C-A21F-4899-9C1C-52F3B2C2A28A@cisco.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1081) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1081) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: This is in response to recent suggested text. Begin forwarded message: > From: IETF I-D Submission Tool > Date: August 18, 2010 12:22:59 AM PDT > To: fred@cisco.com > Cc: jari.arkko@piuha.net > Subject: New Version Notification for = draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines-04=20 >=20 >=20 > A new version of I-D, draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines-04.txt = has been successfully submitted by Fred Baker and posted to the IETF = repository. >=20 > Filename: draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines > Revision: 04 > Title: Guidelines for Using IPv6 Transition Mechanisms = during IPv6 Deployment > Creation_date: 2010-08-18 > WG ID: Independent Submission > Number_of_pages: 17 >=20 > Abstract: > The Internet continues to grow beyond the capabilities of IPv4. An > expansion in the address space is clearly required. With its > increase in the number of available prefixes and addresses in a > subnet, and improvements in address management, IPv6 is the only real > option on the table. Yet, IPv6 deployment requires some effort, > resources, and expertise. The availability of many different > deployment models is one reason why expertise is required. This > document discusses the IPv6 deployment models and migration tools, > and recommends ones that have been found to work well in operational > networks in many common situations. >=20 >=20 >=20 > The IETF Secretariat. >=20 >=20 From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Wed Aug 18 01:37:04 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFC203A6A6E for ; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 01:37:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.854 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.854 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.667, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_EQ_IT=0.635, J_CHICKENPOX_13=0.6, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YIBrGKSIEOJ9 for ; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 01:37:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 235FC3A6A59 for ; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 01:35:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ole2W-0000sQ-TO for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 08:30:28 +0000 Received: from [156.54.233.200] (helo=GRFEDG701BA020.telecomitalia.it) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ole2S-0000rw-H3 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 08:30:25 +0000 Received: from GRFHUB701BA020.griffon.local (10.188.101.111) by GRFEDG701BA020.telecomitalia.it (10.188.45.100) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.2.254.0; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 10:30:22 +0200 Received: from GRFMBX704BA020.griffon.local ([10.188.101.15]) by grfhub701ba020.griffon.local ([10.188.101.111]) with mapi; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 10:30:16 +0200 From: Maglione Roberta To: 'Tina TSOU' , Fred Baker , "'yiu_lee@cable.comcast.com'" CC: "v4tov6transition@ietf.org" , "'jari.arkko@piuha.net'" , "'v6ops@ops.ietf.org'" Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 10:30:16 +0200 Subject: RE: [v4tov6transition] draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC Thread-Topic: [v4tov6transition] draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC Thread-Index: Acs+df10Hl/N18MPQameas0rvrMo1QAN86gg Message-ID: <282BBE8A501E1F4DA9C775F964BB21FE3EADE5554B@GRFMBX704BA020.griffon.local> References: <018544C5-8D1E-412A-B6E4-F12623E66366@cisco.com> <3CEE3B27-7926-48A6-A4A4-BEC1B5C9AD5E@cisco.com> <4C6A14F2.9090107@mesh.ad.jp> <364D16EC-7E20-4B4B-A717-ADBED7552DA4@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: Hi Tina, Yiu and All, the question I have is why do you think we could not discuss these issu= es in v6ops WG? The current charter of 6vops says: "The IPv6 Operations Working Group (v6ops) develops guidelines for the operation of a shared IPv4/IPv6 Internet and provides operational guidance on how to deploy IPv6 into existing IPv4-only networks, as well as into new network installations." and this in my opinion is exactly what you are talking about in this thread= . Could you please clarify what is different here to require a separate BOF= or new WG? Thanks and best regards Roberta -----Original Message----- From: v4tov6transition-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:v4tov6transition-bounces@ie= tf.org] On Behalf Of Tina TSOU Sent: mercoled=EC 18 agosto 2010 3.37 To: Fred Baker; v4transition@googlegroups.com Cc: v4tov6transition@ietf.org Subject: Re: [v4tov6transition] draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC Fred, You understood the procedures and how to make things easier much more than us. Brian does also. We see two IETF ex-chairs in this group. I'm so honoured working with you. I agree with you. Now, the pieces come into a big picture. - 1 doc: Problem Statement (Yiu et al are working on it.) - multiple docs: Individual operator's use cases (Yiu, Can-Can, Lian-Yuan, Chris, Victor, Julien are working on them) - 1 doc: v4 to v6 transition framework (Brian et al are working on it.) - multiple docs: v4 to v6 transition steps/handbooks(should find a better wording, the answers of the FAQ is one of the inputs) Just my 2 cents. B. R. Tina http://tinatsou.weebly.com/index.html ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Baker" To: Cc: Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2010 4:51 AM Subject: Re: [v4tov6transition] draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC > Well, yes, but let me carefully comment here. A problem statement is a > question; an FAQ is a set of answers. If the problem statement is "we hav= e > some basic questions and need some answers", OK, the FAQ is both question > and answer. If the problem statement is something else - which I would > expect the IESG to want it to be if they are going to allocate time for a > BOF in Beijing - then an FAQ would be part of the response but not the > entire response, and I would expect it to be separate from and responsive > to the problem statement. > > Since I haven't seen a draft of the problem statement, it's hard for me t= o > assess that, and hard for me to contribute to the effort... > > On Aug 17, 2010, at 12:12 AM, Tina TSOU wrote: > >> It can also be part of the draft-lee-v4tov6transition-problem-statement, >> which we are working on. >> >> >> B. R. >> Tina >> http://tinatsou.weebly.com/index.html >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Baker" >> To: >> Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 2:59 PM >> Subject: Re: draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC >> >> >> Thanks very much, Kawmura-san. As you say, some of these questions are >> not worthy of an operator, but many are important to all of them. If we >> can get all of the questions on the table, I'm sure we can build a draft >> that we might call an "IPv6 Deployment FAQ". I wonder if you would be >> willing to co-author it with me? >> >> On Aug 16, 2010, at 9:49 PM, Seiichi Kawamura wrote: >> >>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >>> Hash: SHA1 >>> >>> Hi Fred >>> >>> Fred Baker wrote: >>>> We have a transition guideline in last call in the IPv6 Operations >>>> Working Group. Let me take this opportunity to invite all of us to joi= n >>>> v6ops@ops.ietf.org if we have not, read the document, and comment on i= t >>>> on v6ops@ops.ietf.org in the context of that last call. >>>> >>>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines >>>> "Guidelines for Using IPv6 Transition Mechanisms", Jari Arkko, Fred >>>> Baker, 12-Jul-10 >>>> >>>> I gather that the operators on this list are of the opinion that the >>>> documents on the table, which include that one and the documents it >>>> refers to - especially >>>> >>>> http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc4213.txt >>>> 4213 Basic Transition Mechanisms for IPv6 Hosts and Routers. E. >>>> Nordmark, R. Gilligan. October 2005. (Format: TXT=3D58575 bytes) >>>> (Obsoletes RFC2893) (Status: PROPOSED STANDARD) >>>> >>>> but also various other RFCs and Internet Drafts - don't give them the >>>> guidance they are looking for. On this list, would it be appropriate t= o >>>> ask operators to tell us what questions remain on the table? >>> >>> Here's my answer to this question. >>> >>> Opertors who have not yet deployed IPv6, >>> don't know what to do at all. Some want >>> guidelines like, go and get a /32, >>> register it in an IRR (if they do so with IPv4), >>> check if your router supports IPv6, and if not >>> choose a transition deployment model, route >>> the prefix, buy transit, and finally bring some server up >>> so the world can see you that you have IPv6. >>> This is ISP 101 stuff that any operator should know, >>> but some request this kind of guidance. >>> I don't really see value in having a document >>> that describes all these steps. >>> >>> However, many operators who have just started and have >>> at least some knowledge of what IPv6 is, want to know >>> traps in advance. This I think is quite important. >>> The differences between IPv4 and IPv6 that everyone stubles through. >>> I've been asked these same questions over and over again. >>> >>> How do you assign an address in your network? >>> (recommended prefix length and value of interface ID) >>> How do you use link-local? >>> Is there RFC1918 space in IPv6? >>> Is there such a thing as secondary address with IPv6? >>> What's the BGP filtering boundary in IPv6 compimenting the /24 in IPv4? >>> Is there a filtering guideline for IPv6? >>> >>> Operators with more experience have more specific thoughts. >>> >>> Why does OSPFv3 not display global scope address associated with the >>> interface? >>> Why is VRRPv3's global VIP optional and not implemented by some? >>> What FIB size should we expect with IPv6? >>> Are broacasts with IPv4 and ND with IPv6 treated the same way in my L2 >>> switch? >>> How should be use rDNS with IPv6? >>> >>> To summarize my long and rough comments (sorry) >>> "what is the difference between IPv6 and IPv4 that we should be aware >>> of?" >>> is the question that many tend to ask and is always a popular topic >>> in my local NOG (JANOG). >>> >>> Regards, >>> Seiichi >>> >>> >>>> >>>> If, for example, operators are looking for a document that describes >>>> how to use IPv4/IPv4 NATs to extend the IPv4 domain while the deploy >>>> IPv6, so that their customers continue to have some level of IPv4 >>>> support during the transition, I wonder to what extent >>>> >>>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-v6ops-incremental-cgn >>>> "An Incremental Carrier-Grade NAT (CGN) for IPv6 Transition", Sheng >>>> Jiang, Dayong Guo, Brian Carpenter, 18-Jun-10 >>>> >>>> addresses their questions. I have scheduled it for IPv6 Operations >>>> Working Group last Call starting on the 12th of September, but would b= e >>>> happy to see comments on v6ops@ops.ietf.org prior to that. >>>> >>>> Begin forwarded message: >>>> >>>>> From: Fred Baker >>>>> Date: August 15, 2010 11:00:04 AM PDT >>>>> To: v6ops@ops.ietf.org >>>>> Cc: kurtis@kurtis.pp.se, rbonica@juniper.net >>>>> Subject: draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC >>>>> >>>>> This is to initiate a two week working group last call of >>>>> draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines. Please read it now. If you >>>>> find nits (spelling errors, minor suggested wording changes, etc), >>>>> comment to the authors; if you find greater issues, such as >>>>> disagreeing with a statement or finding additional issues that need t= o >>>>> be addressed, please post your comments to the list. >>>>> >>>>> We are looking specifically for comments on the importance of the >>>>> document as well as its content. If you have read the document and >>>>> believe it to be of operational utility, that is also an important >>>>> comment to make. >>>> >>>> >>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- >>> Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (MingW32) >>> >>> iEYEARECAAYFAkxqFPIACgkQcrhTYfxyMkKR8ACeMWWs4R9yi1JO4VGrx5QrG0vV >>> 1lwAn16RYKVoGzEw3zJc67IgdvBH/7t+ >>> =3D826C >>> -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > v4tov6transition mailing list > v4tov6transition@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v4tov6transition > _______________________________________________ v4tov6transition mailing list v4tov6transition@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v4tov6transition Questo messaggio e i suoi allegati sono indirizzati esclusivamente alle per= sone indicate. La diffusione, copia o qualsiasi altra azione derivante dall= a conoscenza di queste informazioni sono rigorosamente vietate. Qualora abb= iate ricevuto questo documento per errore siete cortesemente pregati di dar= ne immediata comunicazione al mittente e di provvedere alla sua distruzione= , Grazie. This e-mail and any attachments is confidential and may contain privileged = information intended for the addressee(s) only. Dissemination, copying, pri= nting or use by anybody else is unauthorised. If you are not the intended r= ecipient, please delete this message and any attachments and advise the sen= der by return e-mail, Thanks. From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Wed Aug 18 02:48:36 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2B983A68DA for ; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 02:48:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.079 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.079 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.408, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_EQ_AU=0.377, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BXWyLiR3tjKm for ; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 02:48:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B01743A68C5 for ; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 02:48:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OlfBt-000ABu-MM for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 09:44:13 +0000 Received: from [202.136.110.249] (helo=smtp3.adam.net.au) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OlfBm-000ABI-NS for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 09:44:07 +0000 Received: from 219-90-255-65.ip.adam.com.au ([219.90.255.65] helo=opy.nosense.org) by smtp3.adam.net.au with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1OlfBO-0004ES-5s; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 19:13:42 +0930 Received: from opy.nosense.org (localhost.localdomain [IPv6:::1]) by opy.nosense.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40D263B325; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 19:11:03 +0930 (CST) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 19:11:02 +0930 From: Mark Smith To: Pekka Savola Cc: Olivier Vautrin , Fernando Gont , Jeroen Massar , "v6ops@ops.ietf.org" , "ipv6@ietf.org" Subject: Re: draft-ietf-ipngwg-p2p-pingpong-00.txt vs RFC4443 Message-ID: <20100818191102.536b1faf@opy.nosense.org> In-Reply-To: References: <4C68F1E1.2090003@gont.com.ar> <4C68FD84.80905@unfix.org> <4C6920F8.7010505@gont.com.ar> <84600D05C20FF943918238042D7670FD36D708817A@EMBX01-HQ.jnpr.net> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.7.6 (GTK+ 2.20.1; x86_64-unknown-linux-gnu) X-Location: Lower Mitcham, South Australia, 5062 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: On Tue, 17 Aug 2010 11:20:56 +0300 (EEST) Pekka Savola wrote: > Hi, > > I changed the subject, because the original intent was lost in the > weeds. > > On Mon, 16 Aug 2010, Olivier Vautrin wrote: > > It is clear that there is one more action done on the packet with > > RFC4443. But this has no impact on shipping ASIC based routers. It > > is difficult to say though if some smaller routers could be > > impacted. > > This, and what Ole Troan wrote on interface lookup, is interesting. > > RFC4443 requires checking that destination address matches the subnet > prefix. Is this the hot issue? > > Note that pingpong-00 document did not have this requirement; the > specification was different (incoming/outgoing interface). Does this > have different implications on the feasibility of implementation? > > FWIW, "Packet may be forwarded back on the received interface" is > actually, AFAIK, used in certain PE routerscenarios where you ping > yourself over a p2p link. > Would that mechanism be described in - RFC5881 - "Bidirectional Forwarding Detection (BFD) for IPv4 and IPv6 (Single Hop)" ? I'm aware of a proposal to use it for CPE to test for the absence/presence of a remote BRAS, which in the case of PPP virtual circuits, would avoid the BRAS control plane having to respond to LCP Echo Requests. That's quite attractive with BRASes now being able to carry multiple 10s of 1000s of subscribers. Regards, Mark. From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Wed Aug 18 03:53:34 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 88FF53A6A72 for ; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 03:53:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -99.735 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-99.735 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.159, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, J_CHICKENPOX_13=0.6, RDNS_NONE=0.1, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FAKNK9sprn3V for ; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 03:53:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C31353A6A38 for ; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 03:53:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OlgDe-000HIS-TG for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 10:50:06 +0000 Received: from [119.145.14.64] (helo=szxga01-in.huawei.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OlgDX-000HDF-VC for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 10:50:00 +0000 Received: from huawei.com (szxga01-in [172.24.2.3]) by szxga01-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0L7C00FDTGQURU@szxga01-in.huawei.com> for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 18:49:43 +0800 (CST) Received: from huawei.com ([172.24.2.119]) by szxga01-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0L7C0052OGQU3W@szxga01-in.huawei.com> for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 18:49:42 +0800 (CST) Received: from z00147053k ([10.70.39.122]) by szxml06-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTPA id <0L7C00A7NGQUKH@szxml06-in.huawei.com> for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 18:49:42 +0800 (CST) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 18:49:42 +0800 From: Tina TSOU Subject: Re: [v4tov6transition] draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC To: yiu_lee@cable.comcast.com, Fred Baker , Maglione Roberta Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org, jari.arkko@piuha.net, v4tov6transition@ietf.org Message-id: <55CF41D1D1344F3684F21C134E9A4B1D@china.huawei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5931 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5931 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1; reply-type=original Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal References: <018544C5-8D1E-412A-B6E4-F12623E66366@cisco.com> <3CEE3B27-7926-48A6-A4A4-BEC1B5C9AD5E@cisco.com> <4C6A14F2.9090107@mesh.ad.jp> <364D16EC-7E20-4B4B-A717-ADBED7552DA4@cisco.com> <282BBE8A501E1F4DA9C775F964BB21FE3EADE5554B@GRFMBX704BA020.griffon.local> Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: Ciao Roberta, Thank you for asking the question. We had this discussion in the Bar BoF in Maastricht, people may wanna comment on it. That was initiated from the discussion with Sheng-Yong, Lian-Yuan and Yiu. I should have invited you to the Bar BoF, just did not catch you after the talk in mic. Yes, v6ops WG is one of the most important WGs in IPv6 area. It is also very busy; usually have 2 sessions of 2 hours for each meeting. As replied in previous emails, V6OPS is the beginning, which sends the requirements to 6MAN/BEHAVE/SOFTWIRE. V6Ops focus on issues of deploying IPv6 into existing IPv4-only networks, with more advanced stages of deployment and transition a lower priority. V4TOV6TRANSITION is the end, summarizes and applies the transition technologies to the existing network. As Sheng-Yong said, in the networks his company owns, they have solutions for v4 to v6 transition, thought they need a set of official documents from IETF, to tell the concrete steps for existing network starting v6, how these transition technologies play together well, not conflicting to each other, especially for the Day 1 of v4 existing network towards v6. It might - Solicit issues/concerns from carriers with v4v6 both deployed - Provide suggestions on technology for solutions - Define "handbooks (textbook)" for the operations If possible, a short cycle, fast return, high effectiveness dedicated "cocktail" forum is needed, apart from heavily loaded WG v6ops. There is no code change request, if there is, it should go to the other WGs. It will cooperate with V6OPS/6MAN/BEHAVE/SOFTWIRE. This is the end of the beginning of v4 existing network to v6! Now we focus on the docs (problem statement, use case, transition concrete steps etc.) for Sep 22nd telepresence meeting. We will have pretty idea after Sep meeting to see if a new WG is created as a "cocktail" WG in v4 to v6 transition aspect. BTW, here are some questions through the email discussion these days. 1. From: Seiichi Kawamura How do you assign an address in your network? (recommended prefix length and value of interface ID) How do you use link-local? Is there RFC1918 space in IPv6? Is there such a thing as secondary address with IPv6? What's the BGP filtering boundary in IPv6 compimenting the /24 in IPv4? Is there a filtering guideline for IPv6? Operators with more experience have more specific thoughts. Why does OSPFv3 not display global scope address associated with the interface? Why is VRRPv3's global VIP optional and not implemented by some? What FIB size should we expect with IPv6? Are broacasts with IPv4 and ND with IPv6 treated the same way in my L2 switch? How should be use rDNS with IPv6? To summarize my long and rough comments (sorry) "what is the difference between IPv6 and IPv4 that we should be aware of?" is the question that many tend to ask and is always a popular topic in my local NOG (JANOG). 2. From: "Victor Kuarsingh" - The drafts explain many of the technology "whats" but fall short of describing the "hows" - Presentation of major (generic) use case network models which exist today, including network topologies and/or architectures - Analysis criteria on how to recognize appropriate transition technologies for the current provider network (such information should/would include information related to deployed protocols and functions which may assist and/or hinder various technologies from being deployed) - How multiple transition technologies can be deployed (simultaneously) for provider environments where access networks differ and have various capabilities - Description of how multiple technologies can co-exist during initial as subsequent stages of migration (i.e. Moving from IPv4 Only to Dual-Stack to DS-Lite to NAT64). - Considerations for legacy operation while moving to IPv6 and related transition technologies (i.e. many operators will have large caches of IPv4 only equipment which cannot be feasibly upgraded in the near future - like customer controlled/owned) - Considerations which need to be made when applying various technologies to existing networks. Included in this would be impacts to protocols, routing platforms/systems, security polices, provisioning systems, network services (i.e. DHCP, DNS etc), law enforcement procedures and more - Scaling characteristics of deployment modes for each technology model and intersections during co-existence (i.e. Some of the Network is DS-Lite and some is Dual Stack). - BCPs on generic deployment models (how this fits into a network) including major and key services (i.e. DHCP, DNS) 3. From: "Yiu L. Lee" if I was running a DSL network, what steps takes me from pure v4 to native dual-stack? How to fill the gap of the v4 exhaustion? If I chose NAT-444, what routing considerations I must consider and what are the pros and cons? I know I'm talking to you people now. I'm just a person. So my thought may not be complete. You are welcome to put things in perspective B. R. Tina http://tinatsou.weebly.com/index.html ----- Original Message ----- From: "Maglione Roberta" To: "'Tina TSOU'" ; "Fred Baker" ; Cc: ; ; Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2010 4:30 PM Subject: RE: [v4tov6transition] draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC Hi Tina, Yiu and All, the question I have is why do you think we could not discuss these issues in v6ops WG? The current charter of 6vops says: "The IPv6 Operations Working Group (v6ops) develops guidelines for the operation of a shared IPv4/IPv6 Internet and provides operational guidance on how to deploy IPv6 into existing IPv4-only networks, as well as into new network installations." and this in my opinion is exactly what you are talking about in this thread. Could you please clarify what is different here to require a separate BOF or new WG? Thanks and best regards Roberta -----Original Message----- From: v4tov6transition-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:v4tov6transition-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Tina TSOU Sent: mercoledì 18 agosto 2010 3.37 To: Fred Baker; v4transition@googlegroups.com Cc: v4tov6transition@ietf.org Subject: Re: [v4tov6transition] draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC Fred, You understood the procedures and how to make things easier much more than us. Brian does also. We see two IETF ex-chairs in this group. I'm so honoured working with you. I agree with you. Now, the pieces come into a big picture. - 1 doc: Problem Statement (Yiu et al are working on it.) - multiple docs: Individual operator's use cases (Yiu, Can-Can, Lian-Yuan, Chris, Victor, Julien are working on them) - 1 doc: v4 to v6 transition framework (Brian et al are working on it.) - multiple docs: v4 to v6 transition steps/handbooks(should find a better wording, the answers of the FAQ is one of the inputs) Just my 2 cents. B. R. Tina http://tinatsou.weebly.com/index.html ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Baker" To: Cc: Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2010 4:51 AM Subject: Re: [v4tov6transition] draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC > Well, yes, but let me carefully comment here. A problem statement is a > question; an FAQ is a set of answers. If the problem statement is "we have > some basic questions and need some answers", OK, the FAQ is both question > and answer. If the problem statement is something else - which I would > expect the IESG to want it to be if they are going to allocate time for a > BOF in Beijing - then an FAQ would be part of the response but not the > entire response, and I would expect it to be separate from and responsive > to the problem statement. > > Since I haven't seen a draft of the problem statement, it's hard for me to > assess that, and hard for me to contribute to the effort... > > On Aug 17, 2010, at 12:12 AM, Tina TSOU wrote: > >> It can also be part of the draft-lee-v4tov6transition-problem-statement, >> which we are working on. >> >> >> B. R. >> Tina >> http://tinatsou.weebly.com/index.html >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Baker" >> To: >> Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 2:59 PM >> Subject: Re: draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC >> >> >> Thanks very much, Kawmura-san. As you say, some of these questions are >> not worthy of an operator, but many are important to all of them. If we >> can get all of the questions on the table, I'm sure we can build a draft >> that we might call an "IPv6 Deployment FAQ". I wonder if you would be >> willing to co-author it with me? >> >> On Aug 16, 2010, at 9:49 PM, Seiichi Kawamura wrote: >> >>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >>> Hash: SHA1 >>> >>> Hi Fred >>> >>> Fred Baker wrote: >>>> We have a transition guideline in last call in the IPv6 Operations >>>> Working Group. Let me take this opportunity to invite all of us to join >>>> v6ops@ops.ietf.org if we have not, read the document, and comment on it >>>> on v6ops@ops.ietf.org in the context of that last call. >>>> >>>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines >>>> "Guidelines for Using IPv6 Transition Mechanisms", Jari Arkko, Fred >>>> Baker, 12-Jul-10 >>>> >>>> I gather that the operators on this list are of the opinion that the >>>> documents on the table, which include that one and the documents it >>>> refers to - especially >>>> >>>> http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc4213.txt >>>> 4213 Basic Transition Mechanisms for IPv6 Hosts and Routers. E. >>>> Nordmark, R. Gilligan. October 2005. (Format: TXT=58575 bytes) >>>> (Obsoletes RFC2893) (Status: PROPOSED STANDARD) >>>> >>>> but also various other RFCs and Internet Drafts - don't give them the >>>> guidance they are looking for. On this list, would it be appropriate to >>>> ask operators to tell us what questions remain on the table? >>> >>> Here's my answer to this question. >>> >>> Opertors who have not yet deployed IPv6, >>> don't know what to do at all. Some want >>> guidelines like, go and get a /32, >>> register it in an IRR (if they do so with IPv4), >>> check if your router supports IPv6, and if not >>> choose a transition deployment model, route >>> the prefix, buy transit, and finally bring some server up >>> so the world can see you that you have IPv6. >>> This is ISP 101 stuff that any operator should know, >>> but some request this kind of guidance. >>> I don't really see value in having a document >>> that describes all these steps. >>> >>> However, many operators who have just started and have >>> at least some knowledge of what IPv6 is, want to know >>> traps in advance. This I think is quite important. >>> The differences between IPv4 and IPv6 that everyone stubles through. >>> I've been asked these same questions over and over again. >>> >>> How do you assign an address in your network? >>> (recommended prefix length and value of interface ID) >>> How do you use link-local? >>> Is there RFC1918 space in IPv6? >>> Is there such a thing as secondary address with IPv6? >>> What's the BGP filtering boundary in IPv6 compimenting the /24 in IPv4? >>> Is there a filtering guideline for IPv6? >>> >>> Operators with more experience have more specific thoughts. >>> >>> Why does OSPFv3 not display global scope address associated with the >>> interface? >>> Why is VRRPv3's global VIP optional and not implemented by some? >>> What FIB size should we expect with IPv6? >>> Are broacasts with IPv4 and ND with IPv6 treated the same way in my L2 >>> switch? >>> How should be use rDNS with IPv6? >>> >>> To summarize my long and rough comments (sorry) >>> "what is the difference between IPv6 and IPv4 that we should be aware >>> of?" >>> is the question that many tend to ask and is always a popular topic >>> in my local NOG (JANOG). >>> >>> Regards, >>> Seiichi >>> >>> >>>> >>>> If, for example, operators are looking for a document that describes >>>> how to use IPv4/IPv4 NATs to extend the IPv4 domain while the deploy >>>> IPv6, so that their customers continue to have some level of IPv4 >>>> support during the transition, I wonder to what extent >>>> >>>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-v6ops-incremental-cgn >>>> "An Incremental Carrier-Grade NAT (CGN) for IPv6 Transition", Sheng >>>> Jiang, Dayong Guo, Brian Carpenter, 18-Jun-10 >>>> >>>> addresses their questions. I have scheduled it for IPv6 Operations >>>> Working Group last Call starting on the 12th of September, but would be >>>> happy to see comments on v6ops@ops.ietf.org prior to that. >>>> >>>> Begin forwarded message: >>>> >>>>> From: Fred Baker >>>>> Date: August 15, 2010 11:00:04 AM PDT >>>>> To: v6ops@ops.ietf.org >>>>> Cc: kurtis@kurtis.pp.se, rbonica@juniper.net >>>>> Subject: draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC >>>>> >>>>> This is to initiate a two week working group last call of >>>>> draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines. Please read it now. If you >>>>> find nits (spelling errors, minor suggested wording changes, etc), >>>>> comment to the authors; if you find greater issues, such as >>>>> disagreeing with a statement or finding additional issues that need to >>>>> be addressed, please post your comments to the list. >>>>> >>>>> We are looking specifically for comments on the importance of the >>>>> document as well as its content. If you have read the document and >>>>> believe it to be of operational utility, that is also an important >>>>> comment to make. >>>> >>>> >>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- >>> Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (MingW32) >>> >>> iEYEARECAAYFAkxqFPIACgkQcrhTYfxyMkKR8ACeMWWs4R9yi1JO4VGrx5QrG0vV >>> 1lwAn16RYKVoGzEw3zJc67IgdvBH/7t+ >>> =826C >>> -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > v4tov6transition mailing list > v4tov6transition@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v4tov6transition > _______________________________________________ v4tov6transition mailing list v4tov6transition@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v4tov6transition Questo messaggio e i suoi allegati sono indirizzati esclusivamente alle persone indicate. La diffusione, copia o qualsiasi altra azione derivante dalla conoscenza di queste informazioni sono rigorosamente vietate. 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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Wed Aug 18 07:30:03 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60AF03A688E for ; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 07:30:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.606 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.606 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.419, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_EQ_IT=0.635, J_CHICKENPOX_13=0.6, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 38LoTDkjpx2p for ; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 07:29:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7EC33A6878 for ; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 07:29:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Olja9-000K3A-Lu for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 14:25:33 +0000 Received: from [156.54.233.201] (helo=GRFEDG702BA020.telecomitalia.it) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Olja4-000K1Q-Ip for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 14:25:29 +0000 Received: from grfhub705ba020.griffon.local (10.188.101.118) by GRFEDG702BA020.telecomitalia.it (10.188.45.101) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.2.254.0; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 16:25:25 +0200 Received: from GRFMBX704BA020.griffon.local ([10.188.101.15]) by grfhub705ba020.griffon.local ([10.188.101.118]) with mapi; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 16:25:25 +0200 From: Maglione Roberta To: 'Tina TSOU' CC: "v6ops@ops.ietf.org" , "jari.arkko@piuha.net" , "v4tov6transition@ietf.org" , Fred Baker , "yiu_lee@cable.comcast.com" Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 16:25:25 +0200 Subject: RE: [v4tov6transition] draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC Thread-Topic: [v4tov6transition] draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC Thread-Index: Acs+wxTT57u0K93SQmCInGtTbpMlQAAHRCYQ Message-ID: <282BBE8A501E1F4DA9C775F964BB21FE3EADE5554F@GRFMBX704BA020.griffon.local> References: <018544C5-8D1E-412A-B6E4-F12623E66366@cisco.com> <3CEE3B27-7926-48A6-A4A4-BEC1B5C9AD5E@cisco.com> <4C6A14F2.9090107@mesh.ad.jp> <364D16EC-7E20-4B4B-A717-ADBED7552DA4@cisco.com> <282BBE8A501E1F4DA9C775F964BB21FE3EADE5554B@GRFMBX704BA020.griffon.local> <55CF41D1D1344F3684F21C134E9A4B1D@china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <55CF41D1D1344F3684F21C134E9A4B1D@china.huawei.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: Hi Tina, Thanks for your answer. I agree with you in principle, as a Service Provide= r we need some guidelines that help us with v4 to v6 co-existence an transi= tion phases, and we really need them now, but we should try to avoid fragme= nting and/or duplicating the work in different places/working groups. In my opinion the draft draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines already give= s a good overview of how the different transition mechanisms, deployed in s= oftwire/behave, could be applied to different deployment scenarios. We shou= ld use this as a starting point and to build in top what we thinks is still= missing. I agree with you that some topics like scalability and how diffe= rent technology models can co-exist and interoperate are important pieces t= o be covered, but I am not fully sure that all the questions you listed bel= ow require a new IETF document to be answered. I haven't seen the problem s= tatement, thus I may be wrong. In addition, as you probably already know, t= here are SDO's like Broadband Forum that are developing detailed documents = that explain IPv6 typical deployment scenarios and use cases, they suggest = IPv6 prefix length to be used for example for DHCPv6-PD and they also speci= fy nodal requirements to support IPv6 in Broadband networks. I would encour= age you to take a look at BBF IPv6 architectural documents like TR-187, WT-= 177 and WT-242. I'll be interested in this activity, as long as, the work is kept focused o= n key issues, hence we do not tried to cover all the possible combination o= f scenarios in an academically way. Unfortunately I won't be able to join the tele-presence meeting on Septembe= r 22nd as that week there is BBF meeting, but I'll be happy to contribute a= nd review the documents. Best regards, Roberta -----Original Message----- From: Tina TSOU [mailto:tena@huawei.com] Sent: mercoled=EC 18 agosto 2010 12.50 To: yiu_lee@cable.comcast.com; Fred Baker; Maglione Roberta Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org; jari.arkko@piuha.net; v4tov6transition@ietf.org Subject: Re: [v4tov6transition] draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC Ciao Roberta, Thank you for asking the question. We had this discussion in the Bar BoF in Maastricht, people may wanna comment on it. That was initiated from the discussion with Sheng-Yong, Lian-Yuan and Yiu. I should have invited you to the Bar BoF, just did not catch you after the talk in mic. Yes, v6ops WG is one of the most important WGs in IPv6 area. It is also ver= y busy; usually have 2 sessions of 2 hours for each meeting. As replied in previous emails, V6OPS is the beginning, which sends the requirements to 6MAN/BEHAVE/SOFTWIRE. V6Ops focus on issues of deploying IPv6 into existing IPv4-only networks, with more advanced stages of deployment and transition a lower priority. V4TOV6TRANSITION is the end, summarizes and applies the transition technologies to the existing network. As Sheng-Yong said, in the networks his company owns, they have solutions for v4 to v6 transition, thought they need a set of official documents from IETF, to tell the concrete steps for existing network starting v6, how these transition technologies play together well, not conflicting to each other, especially for the Day 1 of v= 4 existing network towards v6. It might - Solicit issues/concerns from carriers with v4v6 both deployed - Provide suggestions on technology for solutions - Define "handbooks (textbook)" for the operations If possible, a short cycle, fast return, high effectiveness dedicated "cocktail" forum is needed, apart from heavily loaded WG v6ops. There is no code change request, if there is, it should go to the other WGs. It will cooperate with V6OPS/6MAN/BEHAVE/SOFTWIRE. This is the end of the beginning of v4 existing network to v6! Now we focus on the docs (problem statement, use case, transition concrete steps etc.) for Sep 22nd telepresence meeting. We will have pretty idea after Sep meeting to see if a new WG is created as a "cocktail" WG in v4 to v6 transition aspect. BTW, here are some questions through the email discussion these days. 1. From: Seiichi Kawamura How do you assign an address in your network? (recommended prefix length and value of interface ID) How do you use link-local? Is there RFC1918 space in IPv6? Is there such a thing as secondary address with IPv6? What's the BGP filtering boundary in IPv6 compimenting the /24 in IPv4? Is there a filtering guideline for IPv6? Operators with more experience have more specific thoughts. Why does OSPFv3 not display global scope address associated with the interface? Why is VRRPv3's global VIP optional and not implemented by some? What FIB size should we expect with IPv6? Are broacasts with IPv4 and ND with IPv6 treated the same way in my L2 switch? How should be use rDNS with IPv6? To summarize my long and rough comments (sorry) "what is the difference between IPv6 and IPv4 that we should be aware of?" is the question that many tend to ask and is always a popular topic in my local NOG (JANOG). 2. From: "Victor Kuarsingh" - The drafts explain many of the technology "whats" but fall short of describing the "hows" - Presentation of major (generic) use case network models which exist today= , including network topologies and/or architectures - Analysis criteria on how to recognize appropriate transition technologies for the current provider network (such information should/would include information related to deployed protocols and functions which may assist and/or hinder various technologies from being deployed) - How multiple transition technologies can be deployed (simultaneously) for provider environments where access networks differ and have various capabilities - Description of how multiple technologies can co-exist during initial as subsequent stages of migration (i.e. Moving from IPv4 Only to Dual-Stack to DS-Lite to NAT64). - Considerations for legacy operation while moving to IPv6 and related transition technologies (i.e. many operators will have large caches of IPv4 only equipment which cannot be feasibly upgraded in the near future - like customer controlled/owned) - Considerations which need to be made when applying various technologies t= o existing networks. Included in this would be impacts to protocols, routing platforms/systems, security polices, provisioning systems, network services (i.e. DHCP, DNS etc), law enforcement procedures and more - Scaling characteristics of deployment modes for each technology model and intersections during co-existence (i.e. Some of the Network is DS-Lite and some is Dual Stack). - BCPs on generic deployment models (how this fits into a network) includin= g major and key services (i.e. DHCP, DNS) 3. From: "Yiu L. Lee" if I was running a DSL network, what steps takes me from pure v4 to native dual-stack? How to fill the gap of the v4 exhaustion? If I chose NAT-444, what routing considerations I must consider and what ar= e the pros and cons? I know I'm talking to you people now. I'm just a person. So my thought may not be complete. You are welcome to put things in perspective B. R. Tina http://tinatsou.weebly.com/index.html ----- Original Message ----- From: "Maglione Roberta" To: "'Tina TSOU'" ; "Fred Baker" ; Cc: ; ; Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2010 4:30 PM Subject: RE: [v4tov6transition] draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC Hi Tina, Yiu and All, the question I have is why do you think we could not discuss these issues in v6ops WG? The current charter of 6vops says: "The IPv6 Operations Working Group (v6ops) develops guidelines for the operation of a shared IPv4/IPv6 Internet and provides operational guidance on how to deploy IPv6 into existing IPv4-only networks, as well as into new network installations." and this in my opinion is exactly what you are talking about in this thread= . Could you please clarify what is different here to require a separate BOF o= r new WG? Thanks and best regards Roberta -----Original Message----- From: v4tov6transition-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:v4tov6transition-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Tina TSOU Sent: mercoled=EC 18 agosto 2010 3.37 To: Fred Baker; v4transition@googlegroups.com Cc: v4tov6transition@ietf.org Subject: Re: [v4tov6transition] draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC Fred, You understood the procedures and how to make things easier much more than us. Brian does also. We see two IETF ex-chairs in this group. I'm so honoured working with you. I agree with you. Now, the pieces come into a big picture. - 1 doc: Problem Statement (Yiu et al are working on it.) - multiple docs: Individual operator's use cases (Yiu, Can-Can, Lian-Yuan, Chris, Victor, Julien are working on them) - 1 doc: v4 to v6 transition framework (Brian et al are working on it.) - multiple docs: v4 to v6 transition steps/handbooks(should find a better wording, the answers of the FAQ is one of the inputs) Just my 2 cents. B. R. Tina http://tinatsou.weebly.com/index.html ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Baker" To: Cc: Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2010 4:51 AM Subject: Re: [v4tov6transition] draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC > Well, yes, but let me carefully comment here. A problem statement is a > question; an FAQ is a set of answers. If the problem statement is "we hav= e > some basic questions and need some answers", OK, the FAQ is both question > and answer. If the problem statement is something else - which I would > expect the IESG to want it to be if they are going to allocate time for a > BOF in Beijing - then an FAQ would be part of the response but not the > entire response, and I would expect it to be separate from and responsive > to the problem statement. > > Since I haven't seen a draft of the problem statement, it's hard for me t= o > assess that, and hard for me to contribute to the effort... > > On Aug 17, 2010, at 12:12 AM, Tina TSOU wrote: > >> It can also be part of the draft-lee-v4tov6transition-problem-statement, >> which we are working on. >> >> >> B. R. >> Tina >> http://tinatsou.weebly.com/index.html >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Baker" >> To: >> Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 2:59 PM >> Subject: Re: draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC >> >> >> Thanks very much, Kawmura-san. As you say, some of these questions are >> not worthy of an operator, but many are important to all of them. If we >> can get all of the questions on the table, I'm sure we can build a draft >> that we might call an "IPv6 Deployment FAQ". I wonder if you would be >> willing to co-author it with me? >> >> On Aug 16, 2010, at 9:49 PM, Seiichi Kawamura wrote: >> >>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >>> Hash: SHA1 >>> >>> Hi Fred >>> >>> Fred Baker wrote: >>>> We have a transition guideline in last call in the IPv6 Operations >>>> Working Group. Let me take this opportunity to invite all of us to joi= n >>>> v6ops@ops.ietf.org if we have not, read the document, and comment on i= t >>>> on v6ops@ops.ietf.org in the context of that last call. >>>> >>>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines >>>> "Guidelines for Using IPv6 Transition Mechanisms", Jari Arkko, Fred >>>> Baker, 12-Jul-10 >>>> >>>> I gather that the operators on this list are of the opinion that the >>>> documents on the table, which include that one and the documents it >>>> refers to - especially >>>> >>>> http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc4213.txt >>>> 4213 Basic Transition Mechanisms for IPv6 Hosts and Routers. E. >>>> Nordmark, R. Gilligan. October 2005. (Format: TXT=3D58575 bytes) >>>> (Obsoletes RFC2893) (Status: PROPOSED STANDARD) >>>> >>>> but also various other RFCs and Internet Drafts - don't give them the >>>> guidance they are looking for. On this list, would it be appropriate t= o >>>> ask operators to tell us what questions remain on the table? >>> >>> Here's my answer to this question. >>> >>> Opertors who have not yet deployed IPv6, >>> don't know what to do at all. Some want >>> guidelines like, go and get a /32, >>> register it in an IRR (if they do so with IPv4), >>> check if your router supports IPv6, and if not >>> choose a transition deployment model, route >>> the prefix, buy transit, and finally bring some server up >>> so the world can see you that you have IPv6. >>> This is ISP 101 stuff that any operator should know, >>> but some request this kind of guidance. >>> I don't really see value in having a document >>> that describes all these steps. >>> >>> However, many operators who have just started and have >>> at least some knowledge of what IPv6 is, want to know >>> traps in advance. This I think is quite important. >>> The differences between IPv4 and IPv6 that everyone stubles through. >>> I've been asked these same questions over and over again. >>> >>> How do you assign an address in your network? >>> (recommended prefix length and value of interface ID) >>> How do you use link-local? >>> Is there RFC1918 space in IPv6? >>> Is there such a thing as secondary address with IPv6? >>> What's the BGP filtering boundary in IPv6 compimenting the /24 in IPv4? >>> Is there a filtering guideline for IPv6? >>> >>> Operators with more experience have more specific thoughts. >>> >>> Why does OSPFv3 not display global scope address associated with the >>> interface? >>> Why is VRRPv3's global VIP optional and not implemented by some? >>> What FIB size should we expect with IPv6? >>> Are broacasts with IPv4 and ND with IPv6 treated the same way in my L2 >>> switch? >>> How should be use rDNS with IPv6? >>> >>> To summarize my long and rough comments (sorry) >>> "what is the difference between IPv6 and IPv4 that we should be aware >>> of?" >>> is the question that many tend to ask and is always a popular topic >>> in my local NOG (JANOG). >>> >>> Regards, >>> Seiichi >>> >>> >>>> >>>> If, for example, operators are looking for a document that describes >>>> how to use IPv4/IPv4 NATs to extend the IPv4 domain while the deploy >>>> IPv6, so that their customers continue to have some level of IPv4 >>>> support during the transition, I wonder to what extent >>>> >>>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-v6ops-incremental-cgn >>>> "An Incremental Carrier-Grade NAT (CGN) for IPv6 Transition", Sheng >>>> Jiang, Dayong Guo, Brian Carpenter, 18-Jun-10 >>>> >>>> addresses their questions. I have scheduled it for IPv6 Operations >>>> Working Group last Call starting on the 12th of September, but would b= e >>>> happy to see comments on v6ops@ops.ietf.org prior to that. >>>> >>>> Begin forwarded message: >>>> >>>>> From: Fred Baker >>>>> Date: August 15, 2010 11:00:04 AM PDT >>>>> To: v6ops@ops.ietf.org >>>>> Cc: kurtis@kurtis.pp.se, rbonica@juniper.net >>>>> Subject: draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC >>>>> >>>>> This is to initiate a two week working group last call of >>>>> draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines. Please read it now. If you >>>>> find nits (spelling errors, minor suggested wording changes, etc), >>>>> comment to the authors; if you find greater issues, such as >>>>> disagreeing with a statement or finding additional issues that need t= o >>>>> be addressed, please post your comments to the list. >>>>> >>>>> We are looking specifically for comments on the importance of the >>>>> document as well as its content. If you have read the document and >>>>> believe it to be of operational utility, that is also an important >>>>> comment to make. >>>> >>>> >>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- >>> Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (MingW32) >>> >>> iEYEARECAAYFAkxqFPIACgkQcrhTYfxyMkKR8ACeMWWs4R9yi1JO4VGrx5QrG0vV >>> 1lwAn16RYKVoGzEw3zJc67IgdvBH/7t+ >>> =3D826C >>> -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > v4tov6transition mailing list > v4tov6transition@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v4tov6transition > _______________________________________________ v4tov6transition mailing list v4tov6transition@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v4tov6transition Questo messaggio e i suoi allegati sono indirizzati esclusivamente alle persone indicate. La diffusione, copia o qualsiasi altra azione derivante dalla conoscenza di queste informazioni sono rigorosamente vietate. Qualora abbiate ricevuto questo documento per errore siete cortesemente pregati di darne immediata comunicazione al mittente e di provvedere alla sua distruzione, Grazie. This e-mail and any attachments is confidential and may contain privileged information intended for the addressee(s) only. Dissemination, copying, printing or use by anybody else is unauthorised. If you are not the intende= d recipient, please delete this message and any attachments and advise the sender by return e-mail, Thanks. Questo messaggio e i suoi allegati sono indirizzati esclusivamente alle per= sone indicate. La diffusione, copia o qualsiasi altra azione derivante dall= a conoscenza di queste informazioni sono rigorosamente vietate. Qualora abb= iate ricevuto questo documento per errore siete cortesemente pregati di dar= ne immediata comunicazione al mittente e di provvedere alla sua distruzione= , Grazie. This e-mail and any attachments is confidential and may contain privileged = information intended for the addressee(s) only. Dissemination, copying, pri= nting or use by anybody else is unauthorised. If you are not the intended r= ecipient, please delete this message and any attachments and advise the sen= der by return e-mail, Thanks. From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Wed Aug 18 10:25:26 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73C7D3A6873 for ; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 10:25:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -108.876 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-108.876 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.981, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, J_CHICKENPOX_13=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, RDNS_NONE=0.1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ltwbzg3J38Xb for ; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 10:25:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 127923A6844 for ; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 10:25:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OlmJq-000HSx-F5 for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 17:20:54 +0000 Received: from [171.68.10.87] (helo=sj-iport-5.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OlmJl-000HSQ-1l for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 17:20:49 +0000 Authentication-Results: sj-iport-5.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AvsEAFuza0yrR7H+/2dsb2JhbACgS3Gkd5wHhTcEhDEzhQk X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.56,228,1280707200"; d="scan'208";a="241993371" Received: from sj-core-2.cisco.com ([171.71.177.254]) by sj-iport-5.cisco.com with ESMTP; 18 Aug 2010 17:20:47 +0000 Received: from stealth-10-32-244-220.cisco.com (stealth-10-32-244-220.cisco.com [10.32.244.220]) by sj-core-2.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o7IHKe33009305; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 17:20:42 GMT Received: from [127.0.0.1] by stealth-10-32-244-220.cisco.com (PGP Universal service); Wed, 18 Aug 2010 10:20:47 -0700 X-PGP-Universal: processed; by stealth-10-32-244-220.cisco.com on Wed, 18 Aug 2010 10:20:47 -0700 Subject: Re: [v4tov6transition] draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1081) From: Fred Baker X-Priority: 3 In-Reply-To: <55CF41D1D1344F3684F21C134E9A4B1D@china.huawei.com> Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 10:20:34 -0700 Cc: Yiu Lee , Maglione Roberta , "v6ops@ops.ietf.org Operations" , Jari Arkko , v4tov6transition@ietf.org, Ron Bonica , Kurt Erik Lindqvist Message-Id: <12C8D7A1-ACAA-4615-9837-FFD0555D36D3@cisco.com> References: <018544C5-8D1E-412A-B6E4-F12623E66366@cisco.com> <3CEE3B27-7926-48A6-A4A4-BEC1B5C9AD5E@cisco.com> <4C6A14F2.9090107@mesh.ad.jp> <364D16EC-7E20-4B4B-A717-ADBED7552DA4@cisco.com> <282BBE8A501E1F4DA9C775F964BB21FE3EADE5554B@GRFMBX704BA020.griffon.local> <55CF41D1D1344F3684F21C134E9A4B1D@china.huawei.com> To: Tina TSOU X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1081) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: On Aug 18, 2010, at 3:49 AM, Tina TSOU wrote: > Yes, v6ops WG is one of the most important WGs in IPv6 area. It is = also very busy; usually have 2 sessions of 2 hours for each meeting. >=20 > As replied in previous emails, V6OPS is the beginning, which sends the = requirements to 6MAN/BEHAVE/SOFTWIRE. V6Ops focus on issues of deploying = IPv6 into existing IPv4-only networks, with more advanced stages of = deployment and transition a lower priority. Donning my crown as Chair IPv6 Operations, and explicitly copying my = co-chair and AD... That's actually incorrect; v6ops is about the operation of IPv6 = networks. Most IPv6 networks are right now dealing with exactly the = issues of deployment in existing IPv4 networks, and so yes operational = deployment procedures and clarification of issues is squarely within = v6ops' charter. If the reason you wanted to have this as a separate = meeting was because you thought you couldn't wedge it into v6ops, you = also didn't ask... If there is a need for a new technology, yes, v6ops sends the work, in = the form of requirements, to an appropriate working group. If the = question is how to operationally use existing technologies, the = discussion will generally stay in v6ops. I have not yet seen the = proposed problem statement or other drafts, but from the discussion I = would expect this to stay in v6ops. Personally, I don't see a need for this to be a separate BOF. I'll = support the activity wherever it occurs, but if the issue is that the = operators would like to have a meeting separate from ongoing v6ops work = to discuss the specific issues of deployment and transition, I am = capable of and willing to ask for a third slot in Beijing specifically = for the purpose. I would need some extra documentation; per the session = request tool, "Additional slot may be available after agenda scheduling = has closed and with the approval of an Area Director", which means that = I need a convincing agenda to show Ron for this to happen. Even with = that, in the past IETF there were a lot of working groups that didn't = get *second* slots due to schedule density. But yes, it can happen, and = I'm willing to make it happen or fit this discussion into the slots = v6ops gets if we can't get a third slot. I'm also willing to take the meeting on September 22nd as a = webex-supported interim meeting (as opposed to Telepresence - too many = locations) interim meeting of v6ops and let you run it. Due to the rules = regarding interim meetings, I have some scurrying to do in the next = couple of days - I need to post an announcement 30 days in advance. = Doing so makes a very clear IETF footing for the meeting, however. Up to you. http://www.ietf.org/iesg/bof-procedures.html, and the = drop-dead date for a BOF request is 2010-09-13. Oh, btw - status of documents in v6ops at this instant: Open, not expected to continue: draft-azinger-cidrv6-00.txt (probably a replacement draft) draft-sarikaya-v6ops-prefix-delegation-01.txt draft-nakibly-v6ops-tunnel-loops-02.txt Open: draft-troan-multihoming-without-nat66-00.txt draft-wbeebee-v6ops-ipv6-cpe-router-bis-03.txt draft-korhonen-v6ops-3gpp-eps-03.txt draft-jiang-v6ops-nc-protection-01.txt draft-ietf-v6ops-v6-in-mobile-networks-01.txt New: draft-vandevelde-v6ops-pref-ps-00.txt WGLC within August-October: draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines-04.txt draft-ietf-v6ops-tunnel-security-concerns-02.txt draft-ietf-v6ops-incremental-cgn-01.txt draft-narten-ipv6-3177bis-48boundary-05.txt (WG awaiting update) IESG Evaluation: draft-thaler-v6ops-teredo-extensions-07.txt draft-ietf-v6ops-ra-guard-06.txt (IESG awaiting update) draft-ietf-v6ops-rogue-ra-01.txt (IESG awaiting update) draft-ietf-v6ops-cpe-simple-security-12.txt draft-gundavelli-v6ops-l2-unicast-03.txt RFC Editor Queue: draft-krishnan-v6ops-teredo-update-10.txt draft-ietf-v6ops-v6inixp-09.txt draft-ietf-v6ops-isp-scenarios-00.txt draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-cpe-router-07.txt=20 = (http://www.rfc-editor.org/queue2.html#draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-cpe-router) draft-baker-v6ops-greynet-05.txt The point to take away from this is that while v6ops has had a lot (~24) = documents in process over the past few months, many of them are in fact = moving on. As of Beijing, I expect to have six or seven (6-7) documents = on the table, which is generally what we discuss in a single 2 or 2.5 = hour slot. I have already requested two slots, one for 2 hours and one = for 2.5. You may wonder why I spread WGLCs out over time. Basically, it's = workload management. I find it easier to get assorted folks to look at = documents if I ask them to do so within a finite amount of time (two = weeks) one document at a time. = From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Wed Aug 18 12:04:16 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDFA53A6A82 for ; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 12:04:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.208 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.208 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.393, BAYES_40=-0.185] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ku1TEaUcer7H for ; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 12:04:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED0BA3A691A for ; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 12:04:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Olnry-0003ck-Gn for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 19:00:14 +0000 Received: from n79.bullet.mail.sp1.yahoo.com ([98.136.44.39]) by psg.com with smtp (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Olnrv-0003cS-C8 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 19:00:11 +0000 Received: from [216.252.122.219] by n79.bullet.mail.sp1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 18 Aug 2010 19:00:10 -0000 Received: from [98.136.44.171] by t4.bullet.sp1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 18 Aug 2010 19:00:10 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp612.mail.sp1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 18 Aug 2010 19:00:10 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 754796.36487.bm@omp612.mail.sp1.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 40245 invoked by uid 60001); 18 Aug 2010 19:00:04 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s1024; t=1282158004; bh=lmIWFk/6vl9ULBvY//wb86saITRLB44JB2Ond0FsFWc=; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=c8FMRjoMlIcGO6kBpUtvvHTXBDc0o8bK09tT9xdskFEQvVOnoCCFPH2NstUsnqZ2h6vj1dtSlFnKUwOPUakunZQ+7MIdprlZA8hH7ovjvyaMxGngYFDH39MqAFbLPtwKY8Dw9XSevxQptoH/YiSfFt1GzKvqHKJQJ1ynkzDz0ic= DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=h6/XbNeKgDI4gOLueBLj0ZU6okqYFHqD1POd+/h1LZYR5CT+JrBo9HiyoPFrrind7yWo9+I+YoLnpszCfKZ4EFk3r99vv6lyVkWxG8K1UV2GIeH4GPVDNSsbwk4VPSb+JHmz3wAS0KtdcobEkD+d9Ci1ehSRzb9JMqtpcnhea3A=; Message-ID: <388238.39853.qm@web45507.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: vleN0KAVM1k_D0SuU.PR3lb9VrhMOYaotlpD6w0q5uo3t82 XYCPvSiP8gSFfZVZ9U4P6lH01sLZ9jfiWM8uk4dRpu57pJVL6XjDVIdA4wdz Q1gvVMcDSfu9.51wfpLKKgVXb0ccrOdxhcz8JomdUFWRMc31afY4BNq4VuWj WrWsLYn5hgYUETaG2P35p7vB_EvcEuzLCJyjpnXdKIGx4yfMaP3580_4xodR 0FhmHyjPKOnYRxepdaFcd2G2UePqT8V2gzurE4WV3rN_MazAqPK756ZNyO_C f5g-- Received: from [85.64.216.89] by web45507.mail.sp1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 12:00:03 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/470 YahooMailWebService/0.8.105.279950 Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 12:00:03 -0700 (PDT) From: Gabi Nakibly Subject: draft-nakibly-v6ops-tunnel-loops-03 To: v6ops@ops.ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: A new version of draft-nakibly-v6ops-tunnel-loops has been posted.=0AThe ne= w version follows the comments given on the list.=0AThe major change is the= addition of a Recommendation section =0Athat=A0recommends=A0preferred miti= gation measures=A0under different conditions.=0A=0AGabi=0A=0A=0A----- Forwa= rded Message ----=0A> From: IETF I-D Submission Tool =0A> To: gnakibly@yahoo.com=0A> Cc: fltemplin@acm.org=0A> Sent: Wed, Augus= t 18, 2010 9:46:46 PM=0A> Subject: New Version Notification for draft-nakib= ly-v6ops-tunnel-loops-03=0A> =0A> =0A> A new version of I-D, draft-nakibly-= v6ops-tunnel-loops-03.txt has been =0A>successfully submitted by Gabi Nakib= ly and posted to the IETF repository.=0A> =0A> Filename:=A0=A0=A0 draft-nak= ibly-v6ops-tunnel-loops=0A> Revision:=A0=A0=A0 03=0A> Title:=A0=A0=A0 =A0= =A0=A0 Routing Loop Attack using IPv6 Automatic Tunnels: Problem =0A>Statem= ent and Proposed Mitigations=0A> Creation_date:=A0=A0=A0 2010-08-18=0A> WG = ID:=A0=A0=A0 =A0=A0=A0 Independent Submission=0A> Number_of_pages: 11=0A> = =0A> Abstract:=0A> This document is concerned with security vulnerabilities= in IPv6-in-=0A> IPv4 automatic tunnels.=A0 These vulnerabilities allow an = attacker to=0A> take advantage of inconsistencies between a tunnel's overla= y IPv6=0A> routing state and the native IPv6 routing state.=A0 The attack f= orms a=0A> routing loop which can be abused as a vehicle for traffic=0A> am= plification to facilitate DoS attacks.=A0 The first aim of this=0A> documen= t is to inform on this attack and its root causes.=A0 The second=0A> aim is= to present some possible mitigation measures.=0A> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 = =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0= =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =0A>=A0 =0A>= =0A> =0A> =0A> The IETF Secretariat.=0A> =0A> =0A> =0A=0A=0A From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Wed Aug 18 12:47:53 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A5E13A69A5 for ; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 12:47:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.075 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.075 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.180, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, J_CHICKENPOX_13=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UPKbRDjO8aKa for ; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 12:47:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BD153A67AC for ; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 12:47:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OloaB-0008lr-Nd for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 19:45:55 +0000 Received: from [64.102.122.148] (helo=rtp-iport-1.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Oloa3-0008kv-CF for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 19:45:48 +0000 Authentication-Results: rtp-iport-1.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AvsEAM/Va0ytJV2a/2dsb2JhbACgU3GlIJt0hTcEhDGIKA X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.56,229,1280707200"; d="scan'208";a="149208937" Received: from rcdn-core-3.cisco.com ([173.37.93.154]) by rtp-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 18 Aug 2010 19:45:33 +0000 Received: from xbh-rcd-201.cisco.com (xbh-rcd-201.cisco.com [72.163.62.200]) by rcdn-core-3.cisco.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o7IJjXCs022338; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 19:45:33 GMT Received: from xmb-rcd-114.cisco.com ([72.163.62.156]) by xbh-rcd-201.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Wed, 18 Aug 2010 14:45:32 -0500 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [v4tov6transition] draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 14:45:31 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <55CF41D1D1344F3684F21C134E9A4B1D@china.huawei.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [v4tov6transition] draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC Thread-Index: Acs+w9fwWzLeP2njQ/+1OtC62jzYjAAR0ATw References: <018544C5-8D1E-412A-B6E4-F12623E66366@cisco.com> <3CEE3B27-7926-48A6-A4A4-BEC1B5C9AD5E@cisco.com> <4C6A14F2.9090107@mesh.ad.jp> <364D16EC-7E20-4B4B-A717-ADBED7552DA4@cisco.com> <282BBE8A501E1F4DA9C775F964BB21FE3EADE5554B@GRFMBX704BA020.griffon.local> <55CF41D1D1344F3684F21C134E9A4B1D@china.huawei.com> From: "Hemant Singh (shemant)" To: "Tina TSOU" , , "Fred Baker (fred)" , "Maglione Roberta" Cc: , , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 18 Aug 2010 19:45:32.0599 (UTC) FILETIME=[EB5BFC70:01CB3F0D] Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: None of the items in the grocery list below seem to warrant a BOF or new = WG. V6ops is fully capable and chartered to handle this list including = not being that busy to not find time for the new documents or questions. = In fact, just blast new drafts to the v6ops mailing list or ask these = questions of v6ops mailer and folks will reply. If a draft sent to the = mailer is not being discussed, let the Chairs know and they will = designate reviewers. In fact some of the questions asked can be = answered right now. How do you assign an address in your network? (recommended prefix length and value of interface ID) For hosts in your network see if SLAAC can be used in your network and = SLAAC defaults to a /64. If not SLAAC, use DHCPv6 and see what sense it = makes in your network to use for prefix length. If your network is a SP = network with edge and core routers then addressing such routers is also = a well-know operation besides the controversial /127. You have to be = more specific than the question above.=20 How do you use link-local? For ND operations and any other IPv6 control that travels over the = link-local like MLDv2, and DHCPv6.=20 Is there RFC1918 space in IPv6? The ULA. Is there such a thing as secondary address with IPv6? No. Hemant -----Original Message----- From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] On = Behalf Of Tina TSOU Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2010 6:50 AM To: yiu_lee@cable.comcast.com; Fred Baker (fred); Maglione Roberta Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org; jari.arkko@piuha.net; v4tov6transition@ietf.org Subject: Re: [v4tov6transition] draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines = WGLC Ciao Roberta, Thank you for asking the question. We had this discussion in the Bar BoF = in=20 Maastricht, people may wanna comment on it. That was initiated from the=20 discussion with Sheng-Yong, Lian-Yuan and Yiu. I should have invited you = to=20 the Bar BoF, just did not catch you after the talk in mic. Yes, v6ops WG is one of the most important WGs in IPv6 area. It is also = very=20 busy; usually have 2 sessions of 2 hours for each meeting. As replied in previous emails, V6OPS is the beginning, which sends the=20 requirements to 6MAN/BEHAVE/SOFTWIRE. V6Ops focus on issues of deploying = IPv6 into existing IPv4-only networks, with more advanced stages of=20 deployment and transition a lower priority. V4TOV6TRANSITION is the end, summarizes and applies the transition=20 technologies to the existing network. As Sheng-Yong said, in the = networks=20 his company owns, they have solutions for v4 to v6 transition, thought = they=20 need a set of official documents from IETF, to tell the concrete steps = for=20 existing network starting v6, how these transition technologies play=20 together well, not conflicting to each other, especially for the Day 1 = of v4=20 existing network towards v6. It might - Solicit issues/concerns from carriers with v4v6 both deployed - Provide suggestions on technology for solutions - Define "handbooks (textbook)" for the operations If possible, a short cycle, fast return, high effectiveness dedicated=20 "cocktail" forum is needed, apart from heavily loaded WG v6ops. There is = no=20 code change request, if there is, it should go to the other WGs. It will = cooperate with V6OPS/6MAN/BEHAVE/SOFTWIRE. This is the end of the beginning of v4 existing network to v6! Now we focus on the docs (problem statement, use case, transition = concrete=20 steps etc.) for Sep 22nd telepresence meeting. We will have pretty idea after Sep meeting to see if a new WG is created = as=20 a "cocktail" WG in v4 to v6 transition aspect. BTW, here are some questions through the email discussion these days. 1. From: Seiichi Kawamura How do you assign an address in your network? (recommended prefix length and value of interface ID) How do you use link-local? Is there RFC1918 space in IPv6? Is there such a thing as secondary address with IPv6? What's the BGP filtering boundary in IPv6 compimenting the /24 in = IPv4? Is there a filtering guideline for IPv6? Operators with more experience have more specific thoughts. Why does OSPFv3 not display global scope address associated with the=20 interface? Why is VRRPv3's global VIP optional and not implemented by some? What FIB size should we expect with IPv6? Are broacasts with IPv4 and ND with IPv6 treated the same way in my L2 = switch? How should be use rDNS with IPv6? To summarize my long and rough comments (sorry) "what is the difference between IPv6 and IPv4 that we should be aware = of?" is the question that many tend to ask and is always a popular topic in my local NOG (JANOG). 2. From: "Victor Kuarsingh" - The drafts explain many of the technology "whats" but fall short of describing the "hows" - Presentation of major (generic) use case network models which exist = today, including network topologies and/or architectures - Analysis criteria on how to recognize appropriate transition = technologies for the current provider network (such information should/would include information related to deployed protocols and functions which may assist and/or hinder various technologies from being deployed) - How multiple transition technologies can be deployed (simultaneously) = for provider environments where access networks differ and have various capabilities - Description of how multiple technologies can co-exist during initial = as subsequent stages of migration (i.e. Moving from IPv4 Only to Dual-Stack = to DS-Lite to NAT64). - Considerations for legacy operation while moving to IPv6 and related transition technologies (i.e. many operators will have large caches of = IPv4 only equipment which cannot be feasibly upgraded in the near future - = like customer controlled/owned) - Considerations which need to be made when applying various = technologies to existing networks. Included in this would be impacts to protocols, = routing platforms/systems, security polices, provisioning systems, network = services (i.e. DHCP, DNS etc), law enforcement procedures and more - Scaling characteristics of deployment modes for each technology model = and intersections during co-existence (i.e. Some of the Network is DS-Lite = and some is Dual Stack). - BCPs on generic deployment models (how this fits into a network) = including major and key services (i.e. DHCP, DNS) 3. From: "Yiu L. Lee" if I was running a DSL network, what steps takes me from pure v4 to = native=20 dual-stack? How to fill the gap of the v4 exhaustion? If I chose NAT-444, what routing considerations I must consider and what = are=20 the pros and cons? I know I'm talking to you people now. I'm just a person. So my thought = may=20 not be complete. You are welcome to put things in perspective B. R. Tina http://tinatsou.weebly.com/index.html ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Maglione Roberta" To: "'Tina TSOU'" ; "Fred Baker" ;=20 Cc: ; ;=20 Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2010 4:30 PM Subject: RE: [v4tov6transition] draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines = WGLC Hi Tina, Yiu and All, the question I have is why do you think we could not discuss these=20 issues in v6ops WG? The current charter of 6vops says: "The IPv6 Operations Working Group (v6ops) develops guidelines for the operation of a shared IPv4/IPv6 Internet and provides operational guidance on how to deploy IPv6 into existing IPv4-only networks, as well as into new network installations." and this in my opinion is exactly what you are talking about in this = thread.=20 Could you please clarify what is different here to require a separate = BOF or=20 new WG? Thanks and best regards Roberta -----Original Message----- From: v4tov6transition-bounces@ietf.org=20 [mailto:v4tov6transition-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Tina TSOU Sent: mercoled=EC 18 agosto 2010 3.37 To: Fred Baker; v4transition@googlegroups.com Cc: v4tov6transition@ietf.org Subject: Re: [v4tov6transition] draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines = WGLC Fred, You understood the procedures and how to make things easier much more = than us. Brian does also. We see two IETF ex-chairs in this group. I'm so honoured working with you. I agree with you. Now, the pieces come into a big picture. - 1 doc: Problem Statement (Yiu et al are working on it.) - multiple docs: Individual operator's use cases (Yiu, Can-Can, = Lian-Yuan, Chris, Victor, Julien are working on them) - 1 doc: v4 to v6 transition framework (Brian et al are working on it.) - multiple docs: v4 to v6 transition steps/handbooks(should find a = better wording, the answers of the FAQ is one of the inputs) Just my 2 cents. B. R. Tina http://tinatsou.weebly.com/index.html ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Baker" To: Cc: Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2010 4:51 AM Subject: Re: [v4tov6transition] draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines = WGLC > Well, yes, but let me carefully comment here. A problem statement is a > question; an FAQ is a set of answers. If the problem statement is "we = have > some basic questions and need some answers", OK, the FAQ is both = question > and answer. If the problem statement is something else - which I would > expect the IESG to want it to be if they are going to allocate time = for a > BOF in Beijing - then an FAQ would be part of the response but not the > entire response, and I would expect it to be separate from and = responsive > to the problem statement. > > Since I haven't seen a draft of the problem statement, it's hard for = me to > assess that, and hard for me to contribute to the effort... > > On Aug 17, 2010, at 12:12 AM, Tina TSOU wrote: > >> It can also be part of the = draft-lee-v4tov6transition-problem-statement, >> which we are working on. >> >> >> B. R. >> Tina >> http://tinatsou.weebly.com/index.html >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Baker" >> To: >> Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2010 2:59 PM >> Subject: Re: draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC >> >> >> Thanks very much, Kawmura-san. As you say, some of these questions = are >> not worthy of an operator, but many are important to all of them. If = we >> can get all of the questions on the table, I'm sure we can build a = draft >> that we might call an "IPv6 Deployment FAQ". I wonder if you would be >> willing to co-author it with me? >> >> On Aug 16, 2010, at 9:49 PM, Seiichi Kawamura wrote: >> >>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >>> Hash: SHA1 >>> >>> Hi Fred >>> >>> Fred Baker wrote: >>>> We have a transition guideline in last call in the IPv6 Operations >>>> Working Group. Let me take this opportunity to invite all of us to = join >>>> v6ops@ops.ietf.org if we have not, read the document, and comment = on it >>>> on v6ops@ops.ietf.org in the context of that last call. >>>> >>>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines >>>> "Guidelines for Using IPv6 Transition Mechanisms", Jari Arkko, Fred >>>> Baker, 12-Jul-10 >>>> >>>> I gather that the operators on this list are of the opinion that = the >>>> documents on the table, which include that one and the documents it >>>> refers to - especially >>>> >>>> http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc4213.txt >>>> 4213 Basic Transition Mechanisms for IPv6 Hosts and Routers. E. >>>> Nordmark, R. Gilligan. October 2005. (Format: TXT=3D58575 bytes) >>>> (Obsoletes RFC2893) (Status: PROPOSED STANDARD) >>>> >>>> but also various other RFCs and Internet Drafts - don't give them = the >>>> guidance they are looking for. On this list, would it be = appropriate to >>>> ask operators to tell us what questions remain on the table? >>> >>> Here's my answer to this question. >>> >>> Opertors who have not yet deployed IPv6, >>> don't know what to do at all. Some want >>> guidelines like, go and get a /32, >>> register it in an IRR (if they do so with IPv4), >>> check if your router supports IPv6, and if not >>> choose a transition deployment model, route >>> the prefix, buy transit, and finally bring some server up >>> so the world can see you that you have IPv6. >>> This is ISP 101 stuff that any operator should know, >>> but some request this kind of guidance. >>> I don't really see value in having a document >>> that describes all these steps. >>> >>> However, many operators who have just started and have >>> at least some knowledge of what IPv6 is, want to know >>> traps in advance. This I think is quite important. >>> The differences between IPv4 and IPv6 that everyone stubles through. >>> I've been asked these same questions over and over again. >>> >>> How do you assign an address in your network? >>> (recommended prefix length and value of interface ID) >>> How do you use link-local? >>> Is there RFC1918 space in IPv6? >>> Is there such a thing as secondary address with IPv6? >>> What's the BGP filtering boundary in IPv6 compimenting the /24 in = IPv4? >>> Is there a filtering guideline for IPv6? >>> >>> Operators with more experience have more specific thoughts. >>> >>> Why does OSPFv3 not display global scope address associated with the >>> interface? >>> Why is VRRPv3's global VIP optional and not implemented by some? >>> What FIB size should we expect with IPv6? >>> Are broacasts with IPv4 and ND with IPv6 treated the same way in my = L2 >>> switch? >>> How should be use rDNS with IPv6? >>> >>> To summarize my long and rough comments (sorry) >>> "what is the difference between IPv6 and IPv4 that we should be = aware >>> of?" >>> is the question that many tend to ask and is always a popular topic >>> in my local NOG (JANOG). >>> >>> Regards, >>> Seiichi >>> >>> >>>> >>>> If, for example, operators are looking for a document that = describes >>>> how to use IPv4/IPv4 NATs to extend the IPv4 domain while the = deploy >>>> IPv6, so that their customers continue to have some level of IPv4 >>>> support during the transition, I wonder to what extent >>>> >>>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-v6ops-incremental-cgn >>>> "An Incremental Carrier-Grade NAT (CGN) for IPv6 Transition", Sheng >>>> Jiang, Dayong Guo, Brian Carpenter, 18-Jun-10 >>>> >>>> addresses their questions. I have scheduled it for IPv6 Operations >>>> Working Group last Call starting on the 12th of September, but = would be >>>> happy to see comments on v6ops@ops.ietf.org prior to that. >>>> >>>> Begin forwarded message: >>>> >>>>> From: Fred Baker >>>>> Date: August 15, 2010 11:00:04 AM PDT >>>>> To: v6ops@ops.ietf.org >>>>> Cc: kurtis@kurtis.pp.se, rbonica@juniper.net >>>>> Subject: draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC >>>>> >>>>> This is to initiate a two week working group last call of >>>>> draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines. Please read it now. If you >>>>> find nits (spelling errors, minor suggested wording changes, etc), >>>>> comment to the authors; if you find greater issues, such as >>>>> disagreeing with a statement or finding additional issues that = need to >>>>> be addressed, please post your comments to the list. >>>>> >>>>> We are looking specifically for comments on the importance of the >>>>> document as well as its content. If you have read the document and >>>>> believe it to be of operational utility, that is also an important >>>>> comment to make. >>>> >>>> >>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- >>> Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (MingW32) >>> >>> iEYEARECAAYFAkxqFPIACgkQcrhTYfxyMkKR8ACeMWWs4R9yi1JO4VGrx5QrG0vV >>> 1lwAn16RYKVoGzEw3zJc67IgdvBH/7t+ >>> =3D826C >>> -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > v4tov6transition mailing list > v4tov6transition@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v4tov6transition > _______________________________________________ v4tov6transition mailing list v4tov6transition@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v4tov6transition Questo messaggio e i suoi allegati sono indirizzati esclusivamente alle=20 persone indicate. La diffusione, copia o qualsiasi altra azione = derivante=20 dalla conoscenza di queste informazioni sono rigorosamente vietate. = Qualora=20 abbiate ricevuto questo documento per errore siete cortesemente pregati = di=20 darne immediata comunicazione al mittente e di provvedere alla sua=20 distruzione, Grazie. This e-mail and any attachments is confidential and may contain = privileged=20 information intended for the addressee(s) only. Dissemination, copying,=20 printing or use by anybody else is unauthorised. If you are not the = intended=20 recipient, please delete this message and any attachments and advise the = sender by return e-mail, Thanks. From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Wed Aug 18 14:41:11 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BF2D3A685A for ; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 14:41:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -109.165 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-109.165 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.670, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, RDNS_NONE=0.1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vGASyxMGmqQ8 for ; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 14:41:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E063E3A67EF for ; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 14:41:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OlqJL-000NMh-Ki for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 21:36:39 +0000 Received: from [171.71.176.70] (helo=sj-iport-1.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OlqJH-000NKn-DS for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 21:36:35 +0000 Authentication-Results: sj-iport-1.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.56,229,1280707200"; d="scan'208";a="353348392" Received: from sj-core-1.cisco.com ([171.71.177.237]) by sj-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 18 Aug 2010 21:36:34 +0000 Received: from stealth-10-32-244-220.cisco.com (stealth-10-32-244-220.cisco.com [10.32.244.220]) by sj-core-1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o7ILaQ8K008678; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 21:36:28 GMT Received: from [127.0.0.1] by stealth-10-32-244-220.cisco.com (PGP Universal service); Wed, 18 Aug 2010 14:36:33 -0700 X-PGP-Universal: processed; by stealth-10-32-244-220.cisco.com on Wed, 18 Aug 2010 14:36:33 -0700 Subject: Re: draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1081) From: Fred Baker In-Reply-To: <4C6A14F2.9090107@mesh.ad.jp> Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 14:36:20 -0700 Cc: v4tov6transition@ietf.org, "v6ops@ops.ietf.org Operations" Message-Id: References: <018544C5-8D1E-412A-B6E4-F12623E66366@cisco.com> <3CEE3B27-7926-48A6-A4A4-BEC1B5C9AD5E@cisco.com> <4C6A14F2.9090107@mesh.ad.jp> To: Seiichi Kawamura , Randy Bush , Philip Smith X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1081) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: Kawamura-san, I'm going to take a crack at your questions. My reason is, = first, to put the answers in one place, but more importantly to point = out that there are answers on the table that are available. I do find = myself thinking "wiki". I suspect that there are a number of wikis = around that encapsulate this information; if not, we can create one at = the IETF site. I have no doubt that I will be corrected on numerous points :-) On Aug 16, 2010, at 9:49 PM, Seiichi Kawamura wrote: >> On this list, would it be appropriate to ask operators to tell us = what questions remain on the table? >=20 > Operators who have not yet deployed IPv6, don't know what to do at = all. OK. There's a part of me that suggests that the avenues they have = followed for IPv4 will likely serve them well for IPv6 - if they got = their IPv4 prefix from APNIC or CNNIC, that might be an obvious place to = get an IPv6 prefix, for example. But yes, we can give them some = guidelines and some educational references. > Some want guidelines like, go and get a /32, register it in an IRR (if = they do so with IPv4), check if your router supports IPv6, and if not = choose a transition deployment model, route the prefix, buy transit, and = finally bring some server up so the world can see you that you have = IPv6. This is ISP 101 stuff that any operator should know, but some = request this kind of guidance. I don't really see value in having a = document that describes all these steps. Yes: Go to your favorite RIR and get an ISP prefix (default /32, but they = want to actually ask for a prefix that will address your current = footprint. In short, they will want a prefix for each of their = customers, and have guidelines in their RIR's rules (/48 per customer, = perhaps /52, /56, or /60 options, please don't assign /64s to networks - = they are for LANs). If you need (oversimplifying dramatically, follow = the logic not the specific example) a /56 for each of more than 13 = million SMB customers (80% of 2^56 / 2^32), don't ask for a /32, ask for = a /31 or /30 or whatever you really need. Get enough addresses that you = can address all of your present customer base with one prefix. Go back = for more at some later time. RFC 3177 suggests that a company's initial = allocation should be large enough to handle their business for the = readily-foreseeable future. Do with that prefix pretty much what you did with IPv4... > However, many operators who have just started and have at least some = knowledge of what IPv6 is, want to know traps in advance. This I think = is quite important. The differences between IPv4 and IPv6 that everyone = stubles through. I've been asked these same questions over and over = again. Question. The European Commission has put together a program called = 6DEPLOY; it is 2 a 3 days in-depth on the protocols. Would it make sense = for deploying companies to take advantage of it? The modules can be found in = http://www.6deploy.eu/index.php?page=3Dtutorials An introduction into IPv6: = http://www.6deploy.eu/index.php?page=3De-learning > How do you assign an address in your network? (recommended prefix = length and value of interface ID) I think a good place to start with that is=20 http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc4291.txt 4291 IP Version 6 Addressing Architecture. R. Hinden, S. Deering. February 2006. (Format: TXT=3D52897 bytes) (Obsoletes RFC3513) = (Status: DRAFT STANDARD) and http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc3177.txt 3177 IAB/IESG Recommendations on IPv6 Address Allocations to Sites. IAB, IESG. September 2001. (Format: TXT=3D23178 bytes) (Status: INFORMATIONAL) The latter is in the process of being updated: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-narten-ipv6-3177bis-48boundary "IPv6 Address Assignment to End Sites", Thomas Narten, Geoff Huston, Rosalea Roberts, 12-Jul-10 Each of the RIRs also has a policy on prefix allocation; they are = similar but not necessarily exactly the same. RIPE's is at = http://www.ripe.net/docs/ipv6policy.html; can someone (Randy?) supply = appropriate links for all of the RIR policies? The architecture presumes that a /64 is assigned to a LAN subnet, such = as an Ethernet or WiFi domain. A recent output from 6man is found at http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc5942.txt 5942 IPv6 Subnet Model: The Relationship between Links and Subnet Prefixes. H. Singh, W. Beebee, E. Nordmark. July 2010. (Format: TXT=3D27035 bytes) (Updates RFC4861) (Status: PROPOSED STANDARD) and goes into that in some detail.=20 The architecture presumes that the remaining 64 bits are an endpoint = interface identifier. This could be the MAC Address (EUI-64 Address) in = an appropriate encoding, or it could be what is called a "privacy = address", which is a random number. You will find the most common = approach to that, for hosts, in http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc4862.txt 4862 IPv6 Stateless Address Autoconfiguration. S. Thomson, T. Narten, T. Jinmei. September 2007. (Format: TXT=3D72482 bytes) (Obsoletes RFC2462) (Status: DRAFT STANDARD) http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc4941.txt 4941 Privacy Extensions for Stateless Address Autoconfiguration in IPv6. T. Narten, R. Draves, S. Krishnan. September 2007. (Format: TXT=3D56699 bytes) (Obsoletes RFC3041) (Status: DRAFT STANDARD) There is also a DHCP option: http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc3315.txt 3315 Dynamic Host Configuration Protocol for IPv6 (DHCPv6). R. Droms, Ed., J. Bound, B. Volz, T. Lemon, C. Perkins, M. Carney. July 2003. (Format: TXT=3D231402 bytes) (Updated by RFC4361, RFC5494) (Status: PROPOSED STANDARD) That said, there are other options. One might, for example, look at http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-v6ops-v6inixp http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-v6ops-v6inixp "IPv6 Deployment in Internet Exchange Points (IXPs)", Roque Gagliano, 15-Jul-10 which suggests that in an Internet Exchange Point one might use an = address that helps in debugging routing exchanges. One could also look = at what other folks do: guess, for example, who is using the address = 2620:0:1cfe:face:b00c::3. > How do you use link-local? In general, link-local addresses are only used in well-defined contexts = such as MLDv2, routing, and so on. Not that link-local addresses are a = bad thing; they are only useful within a local subnet and therefore = there isn't a lot of point in allocating DNS names for them, for = example. I personally would use them in those places and otherwise = forget them. > Is there RFC1918 space in IPv6? The counterpart is a Unique Local Address. There is a useful web site = that will follow the prescribed algorithm and give you one that is or at = least has a high probability of being truly unique. http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc4193.txt 4193 Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Addresses. R. Hinden, B. Haberman. October 2005. (Format: TXT=3D35908 bytes) (Status: PROPOSED = STANDARD) http://www.sixxs.net/main/ Something to understand is that at least at this point, NAT as used in = IPv4 is not defined and not used in the IPv6 network, and that is = generally considered a good thing. If you want a detailed discussion of = the reasons, I'll refer you to some of my colleagues. :-) > Is there such a thing as secondary address with IPv6? To be honest, there is not a formal definition of a secondary address in = IPv4. However, in IPv6, it is normal for an interface to have several = addresses - for example, a network that internally uses a ULA and = externally has an ISP will have three addresses on every interface - a = link-local address, a ULA-based address, and a global address. If you = want to consider one of those to be "secondary", be my guest. > What's the BGP filtering boundary in IPv6 compimenting the /24 in = IPv4? Is there a filtering guideline for IPv6? That is generally an RIR recommendation. Randy or Philip, can I turn to = you again for appropriate links? In general, I think there are two considerations. One is that RIRs = allocate prefixes of various lengths, mostly /32 and /48, for specific = purposes. You don't want to filter out an RIR assignment - if they are = allocating /48 PI space in a given prefix, within that prefix you filter = to /48 at the shortest. The other is that deaggregation is generally = frowned upon and at the same time generally done. I believe (I may well = be wrong though) that ARIN suggests that a /32 prefix be filtered at = /36, to allow "reasonable" deaggregation without going crazy. The links = Randy suggests will be far better commentary on that, though. > Operators with more experience have more specific thoughts. That's why I'm asking Randy or Philip for help here. > Why does OSPFv3 not display global scope address associated with the = interface? A "why did you make this decision" question might be a better question = for the relevant working group. That said, from = http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc5340.txt 5340 OSPF for IPv6. R. Coltun, D. Ferguson, J. Moy, A. Lindem. July 2008. (Format: TXT=3D225664 bytes) (Obsoletes RFC2740) (Status: PROPOSED STANDARD) 2.3. Addition of Flooding Scope Flooding scope for LSAs has been generalized and is now explicitly coded in the LSA's LS type field. There are now three separate flooding scopes for LSAs: o Link-local scope. LSA is only flooded on the local link and no further. Used for the new link-LSA. See Section 4.4.3.8 for details. o Area scope. LSA is only flooded throughout a single OSPF area. Used for router-LSAs, network-LSAs, inter-area-prefix-LSAs, inter- area-router-LSAs, and intra-area-prefix-LSAs. o AS scope. LSA is flooded throughout the routing domain. Used for AS-external-LSAs. A router that originates AS scoped LSAs is considered an AS Boundary Router (ASBR) and will set its E-bit in router-LSAs for regular areas. On virtual links, a global scope IPv6 address MUST be used as the source address for OSPF protocol packets. I think the discussion of scope in OSPF is about the scope of an LSA = flood, not the scope of the address. Global scope addresses are in fact = mandated in some cases and are certainly supported in all. If I didn't understand your question, please feel free to ask more = particularly. > Why is VRRPv3's global VIP optional and not implemented by some? Great questions for the VRRP WG and the vendors in question. > What FIB size should we expect with IPv6? That depends. If we enumerate edge networks - if we allocate a PI prefix = to every network at the edge - we should expect the size of the FIB to = be comparable to the number of edge networks in the world. That looks a = lot like 10^7 in not-very-long. That was the point of Marla Azinger's = discussion in IETF-78 regarding http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-azinger-cidrv6 "CIDR for IPv6: Address Aggregation, Allocation, and Assignment Strategy", Marla Azinger, Tony Li, Jason Weil, 29-Jun-10 If we enumerate transit networks and have edge networks derive their = prefixes from their upstream, using PA addressing, we should expect the = size of the FIB to be some small multiple of the number of transit = providers in the world (per the CIDR Report, on the order of 5000) plus = the size of one's internal network. That varies a lot, of course, but = there are ways to aggregate that can materially help. In essence, that is the point of the locator/id split discussion in RRG, = the discussion in http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-troan-multihoming-without-nat66 "IPv6 Multihoming without Network Address Translation", Ole Troan, = David Miles, Satoru Matsushima, Tadahisa Okimoto, Dan Wing, 26-Jul-10 and the discussions in http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-mrw-behave-nat66 = and http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-rja-ilnp-dns "DNS Resource Records for ILNP", Randall Atkinson, 24-Jun-10 http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-rja-ilnp-icmp "ICMP Locator Update message", Randall Atkinson, 24-Jun-10 http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-rja-ilnp-intro "ILNP Concept of Operations", Randall Atkinson, 24-Jun-10 http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-rja-ilnp-nonce "Nonce Destination Option", Randall Atkinson, 24-Jun-10 I'm going to stop talking before I start a flame war... > Are broacasts with IPv4 and ND with IPv6 treated the same way in my L2 = switch? Link layer multicast is ignorant of the network layer, apart from = behaviors like MLD snooping. IPv4 Multicast and IPv6 Multicast work = about the same way, modulo differences related to the address itself. = That said, take a look at http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc3306.txt 3306 Unicast-Prefix-based IPv6 Multicast Addresses. B. Haberman, D. Thaler. August 2002. (Format: TXT=3D12713 bytes) (Updated by = RFC3956, RFC4489) (Status: PROPOSED STANDARD) http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc3956.txt 3956 Embedding the Rendezvous Point (RP) Address in an IPv6 Multicast Address. P. Savola, B. Haberman. November 2004. (Format: TXT=3D40136 bytes) (Updates RFC3306) (Status: PROPOSED STANDARD) > How should be use rDNS with IPv6? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reverse_DNS_lookup. It is essentially as in = IPv4, but uses ip6.arpa and enumerates hex rather than decimal digits. > To summarize my long and rough comments (sorry) "what is the = difference between IPv6 and IPv4 that we should be aware of?" is the = question that many tend to ask and is always a popular topic in my local = NOG (JANOG). JANOG of course has extensive experience here. I suspect that it also ha = a wiki in which it has captured much of this, and if JANOG has not then = RIPE, IPNIC, or someone else has.= From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Wed Aug 18 14:55:53 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BDF23A6832 for ; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 14:55:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.031 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.031 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.136, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, J_CHICKENPOX_13=0.6, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MVniWseNuvT0 for ; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 14:55:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4132A3A682E for ; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 14:55:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OlqZz-000PDr-HC for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 21:53:51 +0000 Received: from [209.85.213.180] (helo=mail-yx0-f180.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OlqZw-000PDV-0H for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 21:53:48 +0000 Received: by yxi11 with SMTP id 11so584338yxi.11 for ; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 14:53:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:received:in-reply-to :references:date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=OxOakuaxNayTewhL4XE2cLO4i1DzwdpqnQFwuuBqyD0=; b=N2gQXkV4MaCsLb1byxX3ym7zT0SsbRNydZLqiCfDtalAxdwbtm+2pjBpW1qrML8Yg4 op/aC86oT6ODQxwLr4WL5Zv82jwWfHuAdPjZocasTp24TkKx0eh2EhGY0NyF0lCVJwSw uZAkJC+J6RMMtXBHmQ5FEpFAcdftI/ABt67IA= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=oNJIzQ8HyZYC7dQWKm4FP5Y1Yx7KBIrfs0hR8t6+F5roGjuTu3r25HJegooK7O3esR sGhPjoogrCzt+mfxs+PtrbcMmFzi6QUH94vXUEvtqfq5TR41m4Xt51IE9epFaMWjdN8y 4U5Uzdxzo0SphDYG0J5LFmAGvKQIG27DdvxnQ= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.150.230.4 with SMTP id c4mr1053106ybh.255.1282168427196; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 14:53:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.12.2 with HTTP; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 14:53:47 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <018544C5-8D1E-412A-B6E4-F12623E66366@cisco.com> <3CEE3B27-7926-48A6-A4A4-BEC1B5C9AD5E@cisco.com> <4C6A14F2.9090107@mesh.ad.jp> <364D16EC-7E20-4B4B-A717-ADBED7552DA4@cisco.com> <282BBE8A501E1F4DA9C775F964BB21FE3EADE5554B@GRFMBX704BA020.griffon.local> <55CF41D1D1344F3684F21C134E9A4B1D@china.huawei.com> Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 14:53:47 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [v4tov6transition] draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC From: Cameron Byrne To: "Hemant Singh (shemant)" Cc: Tina TSOU , yiu_lee@cable.comcast.com, "Fred Baker (fred)" , Maglione Roberta , v6ops@ops.ietf.org, jari.arkko@piuha.net, v4tov6transition@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: On Wed, Aug 18, 2010 at 12:45 PM, Hemant Singh (shemant) wrote: > None of the items in the grocery list below seem to warrant a BOF or new = WG. =A0V6ops is fully capable and chartered to handle this list including n= ot being that busy to not find time for the new documents or questions. =A0= In fact, just blast new drafts to the v6ops mailing list or ask these quest= ions of v6ops mailer and folks will reply. =A0If a draft sent to the mailer= is not being discussed, let the Chairs know and they will designate review= ers. =A0In fact some of the questions asked can be answered right now. > > How do you assign an address in your network? > =A0 (recommended prefix length and value of interface ID) > > For hosts in your network see if SLAAC can be used in your network and SL= AAC defaults to a /64. If not SLAAC, use DHCPv6 and see what sense it makes= in your network to use for prefix length. =A0If your network is a SP netwo= rk with edge and core routers then addressing such routers is also a well-k= now operation besides the controversial /127. You have to be more specific = than the question above. > > =A0How do you use link-local? > > =A0 For ND operations and any other IPv6 control that travels over the li= nk-local like MLDv2, and DHCPv6. > > =A0Is there RFC1918 space in IPv6? > > =A0 The ULA. > > =A0Is there such a thing as secondary address with IPv6? > > =A0 No. These sound more like training issues that are better handled by ops folks, and ops folks generally participate more in groups like NANOG and other *NOGs. There are also some very relevant IPv6 operations mailing lists that handle tactical issues. As Hermant points out above, most of these questions have straight forward immediate answers. Generally, addressing a "HOW" is an operator specific issue that depends largely on the context and problem to be solve. Budget, existing systems, timeline ... they determine the "HOW", not the IETF. Nobody told me "HOW" to build my IPv4 networks, and if somebody tried, i am unsure the "HOW" would be universally. Also, to be frank, i do not believe the majority of the participants in the IETF even work or have current experience at network operators. The IETF folks are great and very helpful and Jari's draft is a good example of how the IETF can be helpful. Jari has helped paint the picture and catalog the options, and he has not gone further than that because there would not be value in going further. Cameron From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Wed Aug 18 14:56:07 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B478C3A6832 for ; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 14:56:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.145 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.145 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.650, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Z8wtcK5LNX1z for ; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 14:56:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B222E3A682E for ; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 14:56:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Olqbg-000PO7-8l for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 21:55:36 +0000 Received: from [130.76.64.48] (helo=slb-smtpout-01.boeing.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OlqbQ-000PMx-My; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 21:55:21 +0000 Received: from stl-av-01.boeing.com (stl-av-01.boeing.com [192.76.190.6]) by slb-smtpout-01.ns.cs.boeing.com (8.14.4/8.14.4/8.14.4/SMTPOUT) with ESMTP id o7ILt7MZ025642 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 18 Aug 2010 14:55:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stl-av-01.boeing.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by stl-av-01.boeing.com (8.14.4/8.14.4/DOWNSTREAM_RELAY) with ESMTP id o7ILt6BD004089; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 16:55:06 -0500 (CDT) Received: from XCH-NWHT-10.nw.nos.boeing.com (xch-nwht-10.nw.nos.boeing.com [130.247.25.113]) by stl-av-01.boeing.com (8.14.4/8.14.4/UPSTREAM_RELAY) with ESMTP id o7ILt4jG004034 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=OK); Wed, 18 Aug 2010 16:55:04 -0500 (CDT) Received: from XCH-NW-01V.nw.nos.boeing.com ([130.247.64.97]) by XCH-NWHT-10.nw.nos.boeing.com ([130.247.25.113]) with mapi; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 14:55:03 -0700 From: "Templin, Fred L" To: Fred Baker , Seiichi Kawamura , Randy Bush , Philip Smith CC: "v6ops@ops.ietf.org Operations" , "v4tov6transition@ietf.org" Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 14:55:01 -0700 Subject: RE: [v4tov6transition] draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC Thread-Topic: [v4tov6transition] draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC Thread-Index: Acs/HXWPZ3FCx3i+TZS8392Xc5YaRAAAj+cA Message-ID: References: <018544C5-8D1E-412A-B6E4-F12623E66366@cisco.com><3CEE3B27-7926-4 8A6-A4A4-BEC1B5C9AD5E@cisco.com><4C6A14F2.9090107@mesh.ad.jp> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-rja-ilnp-dns > "DNS Resource Records for ILNP", Randall Atkinson, 24-Jun-10 >=20 > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-rja-ilnp-icmp > "ICMP Locator Update message", Randall Atkinson, 24-Jun-10 >=20 > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-rja-ilnp-intro > "ILNP Concept of Operations", Randall Atkinson, 24-Jun-10 >=20 > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-rja-ilnp-nonce > "Nonce Destination Option", Randall Atkinson, 24-Jun-10 >=20 > I'm going to stop talking before I start a flame war... Indeed. For there to be any complete consideration of this space, one also has to look at IRON as well as ISATAP from whence it was derived. Fred fred.l.templin@boeing.com From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Wed Aug 18 15:26:20 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B9233A684B for ; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 15:26:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -109.135 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-109.135 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.640, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, RDNS_NONE=0.1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YHgOC4OknXQ4 for ; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 15:26:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BC983A67FC for ; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 15:26:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Olr2a-0002te-N6 for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 22:23:24 +0000 Received: from [171.68.10.86] (helo=sj-iport-4.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Olr2W-0002tH-9N for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 22:23:20 +0000 Authentication-Results: sj-iport-4.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.56,229,1280707200"; d="scan'208";a="173815106" Received: from sj-core-4.cisco.com ([171.68.223.138]) by sj-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP; 18 Aug 2010 22:23:19 +0000 Received: from stealth-10-32-244-220.cisco.com (stealth-10-32-244-220.cisco.com [10.32.244.220]) by sj-core-4.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o7IMNBgg010383; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 22:23:13 GMT Received: from [127.0.0.1] by stealth-10-32-244-220.cisco.com (PGP Universal service); Wed, 18 Aug 2010 15:23:19 -0700 X-PGP-Universal: processed; by stealth-10-32-244-220.cisco.com on Wed, 18 Aug 2010 15:23:19 -0700 Subject: Re: draft-ietf-v6ops-cpe-simple-security/ Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1081) From: Fred Baker In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 15:23:05 -0700 Cc: james woodyatt , "Mr. Mika Saaranen" , IPv6 Operations , "fabrice.fontaine@orange-ftgroup.com RD-MAPS" Message-Id: <1F8974D9-C7A4-457B-8781-2B6FA159414A@cisco.com> References: <60A8155D-7E38-42EA-8A0E-7C52A25F55BA@cisco.com> To: Mark Baugher , Ron Bonica X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1081) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: On Aug 18, 2010, at 2:52 PM, Mark Baugher wrote: > Fred > The UPnP Forum may need to hold up publication of its IPv6 firewall = device control protocol to await IETF publication of simple security. = The firewall DCP recommends simple security when there is a firewall = present in the device. As one would expect, the UPnP Forum does not = allow a normative reference to an IETF draft in a published DCP. = Frankly, I did not recall that simple security had completed IESG = review, but if it is simply a case of the RFC Editor posting it, someone = told me that six months sounds reasonable these days. Is that your = assessment as well? >=20 > thanks, Mark Sorry, I didn't see your note yesterday. http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-v6ops-cpe-simple-security = indicates that it is in Ron Bonica's in-basket. I have copied him on = this email. The process is generally that he reviews it and perhaps discusses it = with the author and the shepherd (me). He may request changes. It then = goes to a two week IETF last call, the discussion in which may also = require changes. It then goes onto the IESG agenda, which is always = crowded. To give you an idea of the work of the IESG, a document I am = shepherding recently required the reading of a 221 page supporting = document. I'd be careful casting aspersions on them regarding the amount = of time they take. Ron has been a busy boy of late in part due to my = efforts to ensure that his nightstand lacks no reading material. And = then, yes, it goes to the RFC Editor. The longest delays that I observe are generally in author turn-around = time on requested edits. Six months at the RFC Editor's office were once = normal, but aren't now; if it gets delayed there, it usually relates to = a normative reference to a document that is still in the pipeline. = cpe-router is in that condition right now, waiting on simple-security = and a document in 6man. > Begin forwarded message: >=20 >> From: Mark Baugher >> Date: August 17, 2010 10:43:02 AM PDT >> To: IPv6 Operations >> Cc: "Mr. Mika Saaranen" , = "fabrice.fontaine@orange-ftgroup.com RD-MAPS" = >> Subject: draft-ietf-v6ops-cpe-simple-security/ >>=20 >> I see that Publication has been requested of this draft for over 30 = days = (http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-v6ops-cpe-simple-security/). >> Would someone kindly give me a clue as to when 'simple security' = might >> appear as an RFC? >>=20 >> thanks, Mark >=20 From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Wed Aug 18 15:31:49 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7588B3A6A93 for ; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 15:31:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -109.129 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-109.129 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.634, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, RDNS_NONE=0.1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id L54smxzKqOcy for ; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 15:31:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC43D3A67FC for ; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 15:31:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Olr9P-0003ie-Pm for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 22:30:27 +0000 Received: from [171.68.10.87] (helo=sj-iport-5.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Olr9G-0003hm-BV for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 22:30:18 +0000 Authentication-Results: sj-iport-5.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.56,229,1280707200"; d="scan'208";a="242136086" Received: from sj-core-4.cisco.com ([171.68.223.138]) by sj-iport-5.cisco.com with ESMTP; 18 Aug 2010 22:30:17 +0000 Received: from stealth-10-32-244-220.cisco.com (stealth-10-32-244-220.cisco.com [10.32.244.220]) by sj-core-4.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o7IMSFhS012754; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 22:30:12 GMT Received: from [127.0.0.1] by stealth-10-32-244-220.cisco.com (PGP Universal service); Wed, 18 Aug 2010 15:30:17 -0700 X-PGP-Universal: processed; by stealth-10-32-244-220.cisco.com on Wed, 18 Aug 2010 15:30:17 -0700 Subject: Re: [v4tov6transition] draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1081) From: Fred Baker In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 15:30:11 -0700 Cc: Randy Bush , Philip Smith , "v6ops@ops.ietf.org Operations" , v4tov6transition@ietf.org Message-Id: <95EA86F8-D69D-4113-A540-1B1C95AC9F44@cisco.com> References: <018544C5-8D1E-412A-B6E4-F12623E66366@cisco.com> <3CEE3B27-7926-48A6-A4A4-BEC1B5C9AD5E@cisco.com> <4C6A14F2.9090107@mesh.ad.jp> To: Seiichi Kawamura X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1081) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: Ask and ye shall receive. Randy tells me that the wiki I was looking for = is at: http://www.civil-tongue.net/6and4/ On Aug 18, 2010, at 2:36 PM, Fred Baker wrote: > Kawamura-san, I'm going to take a crack at your questions. My reason = is, first, to put the answers in one place, but more importantly to = point out that there are answers on the table that are available. I do = find myself thinking "wiki". I suspect that there are a number of wikis = around that encapsulate this information; if not, we can create one at = the IETF site. >=20 > I have no doubt that I will be corrected on numerous points :-) >=20 > On Aug 16, 2010, at 9:49 PM, Seiichi Kawamura wrote: >>> On this list, would it be appropriate to ask operators to tell us = what questions remain on the table? >>=20 >> Operators who have not yet deployed IPv6, don't know what to do at = all. >=20 > OK. There's a part of me that suggests that the avenues they have = followed for IPv4 will likely serve them well for IPv6 - if they got = their IPv4 prefix from APNIC or CNNIC, that might be an obvious place to = get an IPv6 prefix, for example. But yes, we can give them some = guidelines and some educational references. >=20 >> Some want guidelines like, go and get a /32, register it in an IRR = (if they do so with IPv4), check if your router supports IPv6, and if = not choose a transition deployment model, route the prefix, buy transit, = and finally bring some server up so the world can see you that you have = IPv6. This is ISP 101 stuff that any operator should know, but some = request this kind of guidance. I don't really see value in having a = document that describes all these steps. >=20 > Yes: >=20 > Go to your favorite RIR and get an ISP prefix (default /32, but they = want to actually ask for a prefix that will address your current = footprint. In short, they will want a prefix for each of their = customers, and have guidelines in their RIR's rules (/48 per customer, = perhaps /52, /56, or /60 options, please don't assign /64s to networks - = they are for LANs). If you need (oversimplifying dramatically, follow = the logic not the specific example) a /56 for each of more than 13 = million SMB customers (80% of 2^56 / 2^32), don't ask for a /32, ask for = a /31 or /30 or whatever you really need. Get enough addresses that you = can address all of your present customer base with one prefix. Go back = for more at some later time. RFC 3177 suggests that a company's initial = allocation should be large enough to handle their business for the = readily-foreseeable future. >=20 > Do with that prefix pretty much what you did with IPv4... >=20 >> However, many operators who have just started and have at least some = knowledge of what IPv6 is, want to know traps in advance. This I think = is quite important. The differences between IPv4 and IPv6 that everyone = stubles through. I've been asked these same questions over and over = again. >=20 > Question. The European Commission has put together a program called = 6DEPLOY; it is 2 a 3 days in-depth on the protocols. Would it make sense = for deploying companies to take advantage of it? >=20 > The modules can be found in = http://www.6deploy.eu/index.php?page=3Dtutorials > An introduction into IPv6: = http://www.6deploy.eu/index.php?page=3De-learning >=20 >> How do you assign an address in your network? (recommended prefix = length and value of interface ID) >=20 > I think a good place to start with that is=20 >=20 > http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc4291.txt > 4291 IP Version 6 Addressing Architecture. R. Hinden, S. Deering. > February 2006. (Format: TXT=3D52897 bytes) (Obsoletes RFC3513) = (Status: > DRAFT STANDARD) >=20 > and >=20 > http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc3177.txt > 3177 IAB/IESG Recommendations on IPv6 Address Allocations to Sites. > IAB, IESG. September 2001. (Format: TXT=3D23178 bytes) (Status: > INFORMATIONAL) >=20 > The latter is in the process of being updated: > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-narten-ipv6-3177bis-48boundary > "IPv6 Address Assignment to End Sites", Thomas Narten, Geoff Huston, > Rosalea Roberts, 12-Jul-10 >=20 > Each of the RIRs also has a policy on prefix allocation; they are = similar but not necessarily exactly the same. RIPE's is at = http://www.ripe.net/docs/ipv6policy.html; can someone (Randy?) supply = appropriate links for all of the RIR policies? >=20 > The architecture presumes that a /64 is assigned to a LAN subnet, such = as an Ethernet or WiFi domain. A recent output from 6man is found at >=20 > http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc5942.txt > 5942 IPv6 Subnet Model: The Relationship between Links and Subnet > Prefixes. H. Singh, W. Beebee, E. Nordmark. July 2010. (Format: > TXT=3D27035 bytes) (Updates RFC4861) (Status: PROPOSED STANDARD) >=20 > and goes into that in some detail.=20 >=20 > The architecture presumes that the remaining 64 bits are an endpoint = interface identifier. This could be the MAC Address (EUI-64 Address) in = an appropriate encoding, or it could be what is called a "privacy = address", which is a random number. You will find the most common = approach to that, for hosts, in >=20 > http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc4862.txt > 4862 IPv6 Stateless Address Autoconfiguration. S. Thomson, T. Narten, > T. Jinmei. September 2007. (Format: TXT=3D72482 bytes) (Obsoletes > RFC2462) (Status: DRAFT STANDARD) >=20 > http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc4941.txt > 4941 Privacy Extensions for Stateless Address Autoconfiguration in > IPv6. T. Narten, R. Draves, S. Krishnan. September 2007. (Format: > TXT=3D56699 bytes) (Obsoletes RFC3041) (Status: DRAFT STANDARD) >=20 > There is also a DHCP option: >=20 > http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc3315.txt > 3315 Dynamic Host Configuration Protocol for IPv6 (DHCPv6). R. Droms, > Ed., J. Bound, B. Volz, T. Lemon, C. Perkins, M. Carney. July = 2003. > (Format: TXT=3D231402 bytes) (Updated by RFC4361, RFC5494) = (Status: > PROPOSED STANDARD) >=20 > That said, there are other options. One might, for example, look at >=20 > http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-v6ops-v6inixp > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-v6ops-v6inixp > "IPv6 Deployment in Internet Exchange Points (IXPs)", Roque Gagliano, > 15-Jul-10 >=20 > which suggests that in an Internet Exchange Point one might use an = address that helps in debugging routing exchanges. One could also look = at what other folks do: guess, for example, who is using the address = 2620:0:1cfe:face:b00c::3. >=20 >> How do you use link-local? >=20 > In general, link-local addresses are only used in well-defined = contexts such as MLDv2, routing, and so on. Not that link-local = addresses are a bad thing; they are only useful within a local subnet = and therefore there isn't a lot of point in allocating DNS names for = them, for example. I personally would use them in those places and = otherwise forget them. >=20 >> Is there RFC1918 space in IPv6? >=20 > The counterpart is a Unique Local Address. There is a useful web site = that will follow the prescribed algorithm and give you one that is or at = least has a high probability of being truly unique. >=20 > http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc4193.txt > 4193 Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Addresses. R. Hinden, B. Haberman. > October 2005. (Format: TXT=3D35908 bytes) (Status: PROPOSED = STANDARD) >=20 > http://www.sixxs.net/main/ >=20 > Something to understand is that at least at this point, NAT as used in = IPv4 is not defined and not used in the IPv6 network, and that is = generally considered a good thing. If you want a detailed discussion of = the reasons, I'll refer you to some of my colleagues. :-) >=20 >> Is there such a thing as secondary address with IPv6? >=20 > To be honest, there is not a formal definition of a secondary address = in IPv4. However, in IPv6, it is normal for an interface to have several = addresses - for example, a network that internally uses a ULA and = externally has an ISP will have three addresses on every interface - a = link-local address, a ULA-based address, and a global address. If you = want to consider one of those to be "secondary", be my guest. >=20 >> What's the BGP filtering boundary in IPv6 compimenting the /24 in = IPv4? Is there a filtering guideline for IPv6? >=20 > That is generally an RIR recommendation. Randy or Philip, can I turn = to you again for appropriate links? >=20 > In general, I think there are two considerations. One is that RIRs = allocate prefixes of various lengths, mostly /32 and /48, for specific = purposes. You don't want to filter out an RIR assignment - if they are = allocating /48 PI space in a given prefix, within that prefix you filter = to /48 at the shortest. The other is that deaggregation is generally = frowned upon and at the same time generally done. I believe (I may well = be wrong though) that ARIN suggests that a /32 prefix be filtered at = /36, to allow "reasonable" deaggregation without going crazy. The links = Randy suggests will be far better commentary on that, though. >=20 >> Operators with more experience have more specific thoughts. >=20 > That's why I'm asking Randy or Philip for help here. >=20 >> Why does OSPFv3 not display global scope address associated with the = interface? >=20 > A "why did you make this decision" question might be a better question = for the relevant working group. That said, from = http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc5340.txt > 5340 OSPF for IPv6. R. Coltun, D. Ferguson, J. Moy, A. Lindem. July > 2008. (Format: TXT=3D225664 bytes) (Obsoletes RFC2740) (Status: > PROPOSED STANDARD) >=20 > 2.3. Addition of Flooding Scope >=20 > Flooding scope for LSAs has been generalized and is now explicitly > coded in the LSA's LS type field. There are now three separate > flooding scopes for LSAs: >=20 > o Link-local scope. LSA is only flooded on the local link and no > further. Used for the new link-LSA. See Section 4.4.3.8 for > details. >=20 > o Area scope. LSA is only flooded throughout a single OSPF area. > Used for router-LSAs, network-LSAs, inter-area-prefix-LSAs, = inter- > area-router-LSAs, and intra-area-prefix-LSAs. >=20 > o AS scope. LSA is flooded throughout the routing domain. Used = for > AS-external-LSAs. A router that originates AS scoped LSAs is > considered an AS Boundary Router (ASBR) and will set its E-bit in > router-LSAs for regular areas. >=20 > On virtual links, a global scope IPv6 address MUST be used as the > source address for OSPF protocol packets. >=20 > I think the discussion of scope in OSPF is about the scope of an LSA = flood, not the scope of the address. Global scope addresses are in fact = mandated in some cases and are certainly supported in all. >=20 > If I didn't understand your question, please feel free to ask more = particularly. >=20 >> Why is VRRPv3's global VIP optional and not implemented by some? >=20 > Great questions for the VRRP WG and the vendors in question. >=20 >> What FIB size should we expect with IPv6? >=20 > That depends. If we enumerate edge networks - if we allocate a PI = prefix to every network at the edge - we should expect the size of the = FIB to be comparable to the number of edge networks in the world. That = looks a lot like 10^7 in not-very-long. That was the point of Marla = Azinger's discussion in IETF-78 regarding >=20 > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-azinger-cidrv6 > "CIDR for IPv6: Address Aggregation, Allocation, and Assignment > Strategy", Marla Azinger, Tony Li, Jason Weil, 29-Jun-10 >=20 > If we enumerate transit networks and have edge networks derive their = prefixes from their upstream, using PA addressing, we should expect the = size of the FIB to be some small multiple of the number of transit = providers in the world (per the CIDR Report, on the order of 5000) plus = the size of one's internal network. That varies a lot, of course, but = there are ways to aggregate that can materially help. >=20 > In essence, that is the point of the locator/id split discussion in = RRG, the discussion in >=20 > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-troan-multihoming-without-nat66 > "IPv6 Multihoming without Network Address Translation", Ole Troan, = David > Miles, Satoru Matsushima, Tadahisa Okimoto, Dan Wing, 26-Jul-10 >=20 > and the discussions in http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-mrw-behave-nat66 = and >=20 > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-rja-ilnp-dns > "DNS Resource Records for ILNP", Randall Atkinson, 24-Jun-10 >=20 > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-rja-ilnp-icmp > "ICMP Locator Update message", Randall Atkinson, 24-Jun-10 >=20 > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-rja-ilnp-intro > "ILNP Concept of Operations", Randall Atkinson, 24-Jun-10 >=20 > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-rja-ilnp-nonce > "Nonce Destination Option", Randall Atkinson, 24-Jun-10 >=20 > I'm going to stop talking before I start a flame war... >=20 >> Are broacasts with IPv4 and ND with IPv6 treated the same way in my = L2 switch? >=20 > Link layer multicast is ignorant of the network layer, apart from = behaviors like MLD snooping. IPv4 Multicast and IPv6 Multicast work = about the same way, modulo differences related to the address itself. = That said, take a look at > http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc3306.txt > 3306 Unicast-Prefix-based IPv6 Multicast Addresses. B. Haberman, D. > Thaler. August 2002. (Format: TXT=3D12713 bytes) (Updated by = RFC3956, > RFC4489) (Status: PROPOSED STANDARD) >=20 > http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc3956.txt > 3956 Embedding the Rendezvous Point (RP) Address in an IPv6 Multicast > Address. P. Savola, B. Haberman. November 2004. (Format: TXT=3D40136= > bytes) (Updates RFC3306) (Status: PROPOSED STANDARD) >=20 >> How should be use rDNS with IPv6? >=20 > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reverse_DNS_lookup. It is essentially as = in IPv4, but uses ip6.arpa and enumerates hex rather than decimal = digits. >=20 >> To summarize my long and rough comments (sorry) "what is the = difference between IPv6 and IPv4 that we should be aware of?" is the = question that many tend to ask and is always a popular topic in my local = NOG (JANOG). >=20 > JANOG of course has extensive experience here. I suspect that it also = ha a wiki in which it has captured much of this, and if JANOG has not = then RIPE, IPNIC, or someone else has. > _______________________________________________ > v4tov6transition mailing list > v4tov6transition@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v4tov6transition From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Wed Aug 18 16:01:29 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BC423A677D for ; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 16:01:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.111 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.111 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.994, BAYES_50=0.001, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qXnl4UzxTTJZ for ; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 16:01:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 571813A67F3 for ; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 16:01:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Olra1-0006xT-9l for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 22:57:57 +0000 Received: from [209.85.160.180] (helo=mail-gy0-f180.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OlrZw-0006wn-Gt for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 22:57:52 +0000 Received: by gye5 with SMTP id 5so627982gye.11 for ; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 15:57:51 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:received:in-reply-to :references:date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=9Kbj2CJBtJDnQcP6YRa3ahsaqBwJiAqMVgwK/BprzmU=; b=pSTv8SOFFKWY04CXs63zFLTrICBbw8ljY83Fb1HYfji9IuoeqzZ2zzh+xGfz8Gf2nX SaIdoWlsNGWfnkYBB3RO4+oFXLfLkLAzvLj8hylTkdh9zpaOS+A2tCriBAgLofbHHOw5 WJwFv8RNh4QsZHsIan+Nkm5dGbtBmjStrzXP4= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=jZ4ocjYh7dMtH+a6pL2DPlU17COjF/zS8mQVAXzB+9eKncVnlMHEETblyWZiQl+Ugw twAEhn3GpOWNKNVr5jt7gMbgi2O0/BlVuiAyAuW3Nx38e0icmJSzOf+nibsEv+rDtLAm wBzgUp0k8JWcYafHMtZYqa6enp2yjT6TJ57Ho= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.151.51.9 with SMTP id d9mr1015862ybk.354.1282172271738; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 15:57:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.12.2 with HTTP; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 15:57:51 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <018544C5-8D1E-412A-B6E4-F12623E66366@cisco.com> References: <018544C5-8D1E-412A-B6E4-F12623E66366@cisco.com> Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 15:57:51 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC From: Cameron Byrne To: Fred Baker Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org, kurtis@kurtis.pp.se, rbonica@juniper.net Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: On Sun, Aug 15, 2010 at 11:00 AM, Fred Baker wrote: > This is to initiate a two week working group last call > of=A0draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines. Please read it now. If you f= ind > nits (spelling errors, minor suggested wording changes, etc), comment to = the > authors; if you find greater issues, such as disagreeing with a statement= or > finding additional issues that need to be addressed, please post your > comments to the list. > We are looking specifically for comments on the importance of the documen= t > as well as its content. If you have read the document and believe it to b= e > of operational utility, that is also an important comment to make. Dear authors, I remain troubled that we are still pushing dual-stack as the preferred transition mechanism. I think we should add more language stating that IPv6-only + NAT64 is very viable for general use, especially in mobile, a very high growth area for IP address usage. Jari has already presented his finding, which i view as very positive, here http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/78/slides/behave-6.pdf I would like to see some of the content from his deck added to this draft. As it stands, the draft gives me the impression that IPv6-only is only for niche deployments and futuristic sensor networks. Today, IPv6-only is a real solution that i have trials going on with, and i believe it is very functional for most common users, more at http://groups.google.com/group/tmoipv6beta Also, unilateral sounds bad. Makes me feel like IPv6-only is not a cooperative or friendly path. I would say "Pure IPv6" or "IPv6 end-state deployments" which require gateways to IPv4 IMHO, traditional dual-stack is not viable for transition. There are not incentives for me to dual stack at home, work, or while mobile. Traditional dual-stack does not provide a better user experience and it does not save me any IPv4 addresses. Dual-stack + NAT44 may eventually have some benefits if I can by-pass the NAT44 with native IPv6. Same can be said for DS-lite. But, traditional dual-stack (public IPv4 and IPv6) is a non-starter. And the idealistic notion that dual-stack leads to a future where eventually everything will go IPv6 and we can just turn off IPv4 without anyone knowing stopped being viable around 2005, transition time ran out and nobody deployed it. Without incentives (carrots, sticks, other ...) dual-stack will remain a science experiment for those inclined to do so, not a real solution for end users numbering. The real solutions that real network service providers are deploying are address sharing mechanisms that favor IPv6 end to end (DS + NAT44, DS-lite, NAT64). Anything else does not have the appropriate market mechanisms (Bad CGN experience, motivate IPv6 native content to avoid CGN, uniquely numbered users for e2e multimedia) to engender change. I believe the IETF needs to be much more forceful in pushing IPv6-first solutions. Straddling the fence with traditional dual-stack in not a real solution and re-enforces the notion that "I do not have to do anything with IPv6, since dual-stack people will always have IPv4" or "IPv6-only is not ready". If we embrace a more aggressive IPv6 path (which is the reality of IPv4 exhaust), then we begin to stimulate the Internet ecosystem to understand that IPv4 is really not the best strategic investment for client to (server | cloud | client) communications. Regards, Cameron ps. Even in the face of IPv4 exhaust *you* don't need to be worried about IPv4 exhaust http://www.pcpro.co.uk/realworld/360418/why-you-shouldnt-worry-about-ipv6-j= ust-yet From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Wed Aug 18 16:29:20 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57C1D3A6823 for ; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 16:29:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -108.223 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-108.223 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.587, BAYES_20=-0.74, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, RDNS_NONE=0.1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id P7jCZJk4vm8Z for ; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 16:29:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60F633A67F6 for ; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 16:29:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ols2g-000AQO-2T for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 23:27:34 +0000 Received: from [171.68.10.86] (helo=sj-iport-4.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ols2c-000AQ8-Br for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 23:27:30 +0000 Authentication-Results: sj-iport-4.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AvsEAOcIbEyrR7Hu/2dsb2JhbACgV3GkeJt8ghKDJQSEMYU8 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.56,230,1280707200"; d="scan'208";a="173824075" Received: from sj-core-5.cisco.com ([171.71.177.238]) by sj-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP; 18 Aug 2010 23:27:29 +0000 Received: from stealth-10-32-244-220.cisco.com (stealth-10-32-244-220.cisco.com [10.32.244.220]) by sj-core-5.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o7INRM0C003535; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 23:27:24 GMT Received: from [127.0.0.1] by stealth-10-32-244-220.cisco.com (PGP Universal service); Wed, 18 Aug 2010 16:27:29 -0700 X-PGP-Universal: processed; by stealth-10-32-244-220.cisco.com on Wed, 18 Aug 2010 16:27:29 -0700 Subject: Re: draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1081) From: Fred Baker In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 16:27:15 -0700 Cc: "v6ops@ops.ietf.org Operations" , Kurt Erik Lindqvist , Ron Bonica , draft-ietf-behave-v6v4-framework@tools.ietf.org Message-Id: <00C0B23A-EF43-49BA-953C-695CC3FE6CB0@cisco.com> References: <018544C5-8D1E-412A-B6E4-F12623E66366@cisco.com> To: Cameron Byrne X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1081) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: I'd let Jari speak for himself, but he's gone for a couple of weeks. On Aug 18, 2010, at 3:57 PM, Cameron Byrne wrote: > On Sun, Aug 15, 2010 at 11:00 AM, Fred Baker wrote: >> This is to initiate a two week working group last call >> of draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines. Please read it now. If you = find >> nits (spelling errors, minor suggested wording changes, etc), comment = to the >> authors; if you find greater issues, such as disagreeing with a = statement or >> finding additional issues that need to be addressed, please post your >> comments to the list. >> We are looking specifically for comments on the importance of the = document >> as well as its content. If you have read the document and believe it = to be >> of operational utility, that is also an important comment to make. >=20 > Dear authors, >=20 > I remain troubled that we are still pushing dual-stack as the > preferred transition mechanism. I think we should add more language > stating that IPv6-only + NAT64 is very viable for general use, > especially in mobile, a very high growth area for IP address usage. I certainly tried to edit that in, in section 4.4. It does have issues, = notably in dealing with refers (if the target system tells you to = redirect your request to an IPv4 address, how do you handle that?). But = yes, it is operationally useful in those networks that have deployed it. Can I ask you to suggest text? > Jari has already presented his finding, which i view as very positive, > here http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/78/slides/behave-6.pdf Hmm. You might read = http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-arkko-ipv6-only-experience "Experiences from an IPv6-Only Network", Jari Arkko, Ari Keranen, 12-Jul-10, which is Jari's write-up on his experience. In the deck you refer to, = the key take-awways are on slide 4 and 10; there are some things that = worked, and some things that really didn't. Jari, having tried = IPv6-only, was pleased with what worked but troubled by the things that = didn't. Xing Li has also commented to me on issues that CERNET2 has. > I would like to see some of the content from his deck added to this > draft. As it stands, the draft gives me the impression that IPv6-only > is only for niche deployments and futuristic sensor networks. OK, no problem. I'll add the second recommendation on slide 10 of Jari's = deck to the draft. Oops, I don't need to - it's already there. > Today, > IPv6-only is a real solution that i have trials going on with, and i > believe it is very functional for most common users, more at > http://groups.google.com/group/tmoipv6beta >=20 > Also, unilateral sounds bad. Makes me feel like IPv6-only is not a > cooperative or friendly path. I would say "Pure IPv6" or "IPv6 > end-state deployments" which require gateways to IPv4 http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-behave-v6v4-framework "Framework for IPv4/IPv6 Translation", Fred Baker, Xing Li, Congxiao Bao, Kevin Yin, 17-Aug-10 which is on its way to RFC-dom defines: IPv6-only: An IPv6-only implementation, in this context, comprises an IPv6-enabled end system stack, applications directly or indirectly using that IPv6 stack, plus routing in the network. It implies that two application instances are capable of communicating using IPv6, but not IPv4 - they have an IPv6 stack, addresses, and network support including routing in IPv6, but some element is missing that prevents communication with IPv4 hosts. Would it be OK with you if I changed that to "IPv6-only deployment"? > IMHO, traditional dual-stack is not viable for transition. There are > not incentives for me to dual stack at home, work, or while mobile. That's interesting, given the number of networks that have followed that = route. I wonder what other operators would say about that? > Traditional dual-stack does not provide a better user experience and > it does not save me any IPv4 addresses. Dual-stack + NAT44 may > eventually have some benefits if I can by-pass the NAT44 with native > IPv6. Same can be said for DS-lite. But, traditional dual-stack > (public IPv4 and IPv6) is a non-starter. And the idealistic notion > that dual-stack leads to a future where eventually everything will go > IPv6 and we can just turn off IPv4 without anyone knowing stopped > being viable around 2005, transition time ran out and nobody deployed > it. Without incentives (carrots, sticks, other ...) dual-stack will > remain a science experiment for those inclined to do so, not a real > solution for end users numbering. The real solutions that real > network service providers are deploying are address sharing mechanisms > that favor IPv6 end to end (DS + NAT44, DS-lite, NAT64). Anything > else does not have the appropriate market mechanisms (Bad CGN > experience, motivate IPv6 native content to avoid CGN, uniquely > numbered users for e2e multimedia) to engender change. >=20 > I believe the IETF needs to be much more forceful in pushing > IPv6-first solutions. Straddling the fence with traditional > dual-stack in not a real solution and re-enforces the notion that "I > do not have to do anything with IPv6, since dual-stack people will > always have IPv4" or "IPv6-only is not ready". If we embrace a more > aggressive IPv6 path (which is the reality of IPv4 exhaust), then we > begin to stimulate the Internet ecosystem to understand that IPv4 is > really not the best strategic investment for client to (server | cloud > | client) communications. On that point I agree. That said, for the vast number of networks, the = issue is not bringing up IPv6 where IPv4 isn't; the issue is bringing up = IPv6 in the existing IPv4 network. Hence, in talks I give = (ftp://ftpeng.cisco.com/fred/nav6tf/Fred_Recent_Talk.pdf being an = example), I very explicitly tell my audience that the term "transition" = implies turning something ON and turning something OFF, and I am simply = talking about DEPLOYMENT, which involves turning something ON. I have no = problem with IPv6-only networks apart from protocols like SMTP, HTTP, = FTP, and so on that carry IP addresses at the application layer. If we = could get those to use names instead of addresses, I would be right with = you. > Regards, >=20 > Cameron >=20 > ps. Even in the face of IPv4 exhaust *you* don't need to be worried > about IPv4 exhaust > = http://www.pcpro.co.uk/realworld/360418/why-you-shouldnt-worry-about-ipv6-= just-yet From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Wed Aug 18 16:33:25 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 680C33A687D for ; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 16:33:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.367 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.367 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.472, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, J_CHICKENPOX_13=0.6, RDNS_NONE=0.1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gzvLzEJDz-EW for ; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 16:33:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE8AA3A6875 for ; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 16:33:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ols7p-000B1z-J6 for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 23:32:53 +0000 Received: from [209.85.212.52] (helo=mail-vw0-f52.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ols7m-000B1f-G3 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 23:32:50 +0000 Received: by vws14 with SMTP id 14so1556785vws.11 for ; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 16:32:49 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from :organization:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=m7tojNMMufLF41X67sl9IIYjqYNHgHhbOK+CPk7BoaA=; b=Qv7ODCrWW67zYZ936RyndqypiMqDFAsIBnP5TqaAzmKsPRdiPkXa8ALBKwqo1vn9JS QYai1C6o2868nGYTwFnpZsCeOhA9lwn5lTfPcvi0uIvARw3t8qZHeaDSh9hs+yycUHqU qOJz/7f9uEg9lUZw1+kHmq6OQNMqJb6oDUPHY= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:organization:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc :subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=NHnUpc6LhJwEczBLb3ZImTeZDecEIRkT6g2QHvkNpBOcc4DWCd8OdAIL1w30rsMovi kWF1Fn82Zr1VrCnIx8ANiEjfM7KNEF9ukZCPnv3L3Wpx/8gUbSpVYDphb3O2e+7Mp92o WSRoLJImz3QwsOiETGoHDFVYhUFeh2E2VjDr8= Received: by 10.220.167.133 with SMTP id q5mr5270829vcy.254.1282174369676; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 16:32:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [130.216.38.124] (stf-brian.sfac.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.38.124]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id u2sm386219vcr.8.2010.08.18.16.32.45 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Wed, 18 Aug 2010 16:32:48 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4C6C6D85.30507@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 11:32:21 +1200 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Windows/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Hemant Singh (shemant)" CC: Tina TSOU , yiu_lee@cable.comcast.com, "Fred Baker (fred)" , Maglione Roberta , v6ops@ops.ietf.org, jari.arkko@piuha.net, v4tov6transition@ietf.org Subject: Re: [v4tov6transition] draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC References: <018544C5-8D1E-412A-B6E4-F12623E66366@cisco.com> <3CEE3B27-7926-48A6-A4A4-BEC1B5C9AD5E@cisco.com> <4C6A14F2.9090107@mesh.ad.jp> <364D16EC-7E20-4B4B-A717-ADBED7552DA4@cisco.com> <282BBE8A501E1F4DA9C775F964BB21FE3EADE5554B@GRFMBX704BA020.griffon.local> <55CF41D1D1344F3684F21C134E9A4B1D@china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: Concatenated replies to several messages: On 2010-08-19 07:45, Hemant Singh (shemant) wrote: > None of the items in the grocery list below seem to warrant a > BOF or new WG. V6ops is fully capable and chartered to > handle this list including not being that busy to not find > time for the new documents or questions. In fact, just blast > new drafts to the v6ops mailing list or ask these questions > of v6ops mailer and folks will reply. If a draft sent to the > mailer is not being discussed, let the Chairs know and they > will designate reviewers. In fact some of the questions > asked can be answered right now. In my opinion there is an organizational problem that needs more than just blasting new drafts or asking questions. Whether it is organized as a separate BOF or a special session of V6OPS is not so important, but there are many operators who will soon face IPv6 for the first time and they badly need organized advice. We will only get that with an organized discussion. On 2010-08-19 09:36, Fred Baker wrote: > there are answers on the table that are available. I do find > myself thinking "wiki". I really don't think that meets the need for well organized advice; no disrespect to http://www.civil-tongue.net/6and4/ or its peers, but neither that nor vendors' documentation really fills the bill IMHO. On 2010-08-19 09:53, Cameron Byrne wrote: > These sound more like training issues that are better handled by ops > folks, and ops folks generally participate more in groups like NANOG > and other *NOGs. There are also some very relevant IPv6 operations > mailing lists that handle tactical issues. Correct, but again: newcomers to IPv6 need organized documents first. > > As Hermant points out above, most of these questions have straight > forward immediate answers. Generally, addressing a "HOW" is an > operator specific issue that depends largely on the context and > problem to be solve. Absolutely. I hope nobody imagines we can produce "one size fits all" documents. > Also, to be frank, i do not believe the majority of the participants > in the IETF even work or have current experience at network operators. Then we'd better get contributions from the minority that do. Brian From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Wed Aug 18 16:49:33 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0044B3A6823 for ; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 16:49:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.641 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.641 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.146, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0QtaxmTm1LS5 for ; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 16:49:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F11813A679F for ; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 16:49:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OlsMc-000CjM-3H for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 23:48:10 +0000 Received: from [209.85.212.52] (helo=mail-vw0-f52.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OlsMZ-000Cj3-3U for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 23:48:07 +0000 Received: by vws14 with SMTP id 14so1573259vws.11 for ; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 16:48:06 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from :organization:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=UKAZwg6W4Vdehn+2RmRkGrs8FNSghO5dyEGr0znsVaI=; b=Q7mNEI+mjfJ7BidBUVrn9Q1eao5ScbTTGyPpSUcfhK+4uOD35oc3beUha4CCMz4tts kX32GM7U9G71/mtti/0uuAOosvFxg/z9n89spkbcv4SPYTVH5McURDjivlHiraOuDttL KXH+bo0EQx3qe5ejnjZqhXFCkwL751YgLCRNk= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:organization:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc :subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=n/2qTWt++/x8jT2Nk0QTNWUX2uMZcd5KBVmKkO6uuC4cXWci1vO6JsQLVXr2rg4JlC p2HITYuyv4RfgRMG9XDYfQ943SHO0bSGydvKdfu28j9n9auVyWCg1/xT6UriqkfD5gu4 3R9Sa8gv9Ep5rUXjUhzCIgq4vxTHwms72Pxyo= Received: by 10.220.158.9 with SMTP id d9mr5468635vcx.33.1282175285562; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 16:48:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [130.216.38.124] (stf-brian.sfac.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.38.124]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id v11sm526946vbb.11.2010.08.18.16.48.01 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Wed, 18 Aug 2010 16:48:04 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4C6C7118.1060600@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 11:47:36 +1200 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Windows/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Cameron Byrne CC: Fred Baker , v6ops@ops.ietf.org, kurtis@kurtis.pp.se, rbonica@juniper.net Subject: Re: draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC References: <018544C5-8D1E-412A-B6E4-F12623E66366@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: On 2010-08-19 10:57, Cameron Byrne wrote: ... > IMHO, traditional dual-stack is not viable for transition. There are > not incentives for me to dual stack at home, work, or while mobile. > Traditional dual-stack does not provide a better user experience and > it does not save me any IPv4 addresses. Dual-stack + NAT44 may > eventually have some benefits if I can by-pass the NAT44 with native > IPv6. Same can be said for DS-lite. But, traditional dual-stack > (public IPv4 and IPv6) is a non-starter. And the idealistic notion > that dual-stack leads to a future where eventually everything will go > IPv6 and we can just turn off IPv4 without anyone knowing stopped > being viable around 2005, transition time ran out and nobody deployed > it. This, sadly, is true. The dual stack model assumed that IPv6 would get everyhwere before IPv4 exhaustion hit. Shame about that. However, that does not preclude a model where an ISP prefers to deploy dual stack routing and thereby ends up with 3 classes of customers - IPv4 legacy customers - dual stack customers - IPv6-only customers Many ISPs might conclude that this was actually their best option. Personally I think it's appropriate for the draft to present this as the most obvious option, but probably it should explicitly point out that the above three classes of customers will exist as a result, and there will be interoperability issues. The draft says: 4.3. IPv6-Only Core Network An emerging deployment model uses IPv6 as the dominant protocol I don't think we should be *recommending* this choice, or any other choice, but the word "emerging" makes it sound risky. Maybe we could just say "Another depolyment model..." Brian From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Wed Aug 18 17:12:21 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E3F93A6990 for ; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 17:12:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.547 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.547 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.052, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1lUJ1Ub2t3RM for ; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 17:12:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D32553A698D for ; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 17:12:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OlsfB-000Ezb-33 for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Thu, 19 Aug 2010 00:07:21 +0000 Received: from [209.85.213.194] (helo=mail-yx0-f194.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Olseo-000Ex0-Ql for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 19 Aug 2010 00:07:03 +0000 Received: by yxj4 with SMTP id 4so208818yxj.5 for ; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 17:06:57 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:sender:message-id:date:from :user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:x-enigmail-version:openpgp :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=EMSbjdYyeHa3HA/ymr/0BacS1lw8LPxVy2NhMYNzPUI=; b=OviMzWFsmgJPd2xd70CD2EKzXkSD8b+5y/xLbfADsCdaG6jPHR3/Ta9D0CXiaEVuCN xD4Hg3iAPuCfA/gEO960HMeh/3S5qn9tsBErxXSuNp60pck++Mqx1RmJMJ9KDLNb2Tw2 Lk77ITg7lbal1MA9WsgOn8cP0kNfH/86fOWOk= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=sender:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject :x-enigmail-version:openpgp:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=l4p2B6CssreaL5JUWi70UPR9vv2/aK+lf3qQ19En4gwQ7+Ze6Qhk8H+aYUSVSQRqoF 9v9a1lqyz8yz/mq5TBUzzk4NkttQuEr/cis7uuabo1Q+iuu6Yxw1pOnAQwkJHyxSGzD5 5gEeYbHamegcefGQ/HDmLlu7Pp+MkkDvIi57Q= Received: by 10.101.138.8 with SMTP id q8mr10317218ann.164.1282176417117; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 17:06:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.0.157] ([190.139.184.148]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id c19sm1245891ana.22.2010.08.18.17.06.55 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Wed, 18 Aug 2010 17:06:56 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4C6C5986.7080009@gont.com.ar> Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 19:07:02 -0300 From: Fernando Gont User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.24 (Windows/20100228) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "ipv6@ietf.org" CC: "v6ops@ops.ietf.org" Subject: Nimrod for IPv6? X-Enigmail-Version: 0.96.0 OpenPGP: id=D076FFF1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: Hi, folks, Routing Header Type 1, and option 0x8a (Endpoint Identification), are related to the Nimrod routing system. Has Nimrod for IPv6 ever been specified? If so, has there ever been any deployments? Put another way: should one expect to find occurrences of RHT1 and/or option 0x8a? Thanks! Kind regards, -- Fernando Gont e-mail: fernando@gont.com.ar || fgont@acm.org PGP Fingerprint: 7809 84F5 322E 45C7 F1C9 3945 96EE A9EF D076 FFF1 From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Wed Aug 18 18:10:11 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC9603A6909 for ; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 18:10:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.193 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.193 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.003, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fclIteoreUfF for ; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 18:10:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F28A63A68BD for ; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 18:10:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OltYv-000Ly6-SQ for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Thu, 19 Aug 2010 01:04:58 +0000 Received: from [202.32.8.193] (helo=tyo201.gate.nec.co.jp) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OltYp-000LxP-PZ; Thu, 19 Aug 2010 01:04:52 +0000 Received: from mailgate3.nec.co.jp ([10.7.69.193]) by tyo201.gate.nec.co.jp (8.13.8/8.13.4) with ESMTP id o7J14kkQ018683; Thu, 19 Aug 2010 10:04:46 +0900 (JST) Received: (from root@localhost) by mailgate3.nec.co.jp (8.11.7/3.7W-MAILGATE-NEC) id o7J14kr07616; Thu, 19 Aug 2010 10:04:46 +0900 (JST) Received: from bgas200085.sys.biglobe.nec.co.jp (bgas200085.sys.biglobe.nec.co.jp [10.82.141.45]) by mailsv4.nec.co.jp (8.13.8/8.13.4) with ESMTP id o7J14jTA017212; Thu, 19 Aug 2010 10:04:45 +0900 (JST) Received: from mail.sys.biglobe.nec.co.jp (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by bgas200085.sys.biglobe.nec.co.jp (BINGO/BINGO/06101717) with ESMTP id o7J14jtb015356; Thu, 19 Aug 2010 10:04:45 +0900 Received: from mail.sys.biglobe.nec.co.jp (bgsx5626.sys.biglobe.nec.co.jp [10.18.151.10]) (envelope-from kawamucho@mesh.ad.jp) by mail.sys.biglobe.nec.co.jp (BINGO/BINGO/10031711) with ESMTP id o7J14jgc025524 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 19 Aug 2010 10:04:45 +0900 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (edonet065.sys.biglobe.nec.co.jp [10.19.137.65]) (authenticated bits=0) (envelope-from kawamucho@mesh.ad.jp) by mail.sys.biglobe.nec.co.jp (BINGO/BINGO/10031711) with ESMTP id o7J14jSk032174 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 19 Aug 2010 10:04:45 +0900 Message-ID: <4C6C832C.2010103@mesh.ad.jp> Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 10:04:44 +0900 From: Seiichi Kawamura User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.24 (Windows/20100228) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Fred Baker CC: Randy Bush , Philip Smith , v4tov6transition@ietf.org, "v6ops@ops.ietf.org Operations" Subject: Re: draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC References: <018544C5-8D1E-412A-B6E4-F12623E66366@cisco.com> <3CEE3B27-7926-48A6-A4A4-BEC1B5C9AD5E@cisco.com> <4C6A14F2.9090107@mesh.ad.jp> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 0.96.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hi Fred To make it clear, most of those question are not from me but questions that I tend to hear from a lot of operators around me. As Brian C. has said in a different mail, the answers are not organized so I keep hearing the same questions over and over again. Rest of my comments inline. Fred Baker wrote: > Kawamura-san, I'm going to take a crack at your questions. My reason is, first, to put the answers in one place, but more importantly to point out that there are answers on the table that are available. I do find myself thinking "wiki". I suspect that there are a number of wikis around that encapsulate this information; if not, we can create one at the IETF site. > > I have no doubt that I will be corrected on numerous points :-) > > On Aug 16, 2010, at 9:49 PM, Seiichi Kawamura wrote: >>> On this list, would it be appropriate to ask operators to tell us what questions remain on the table? >> Operators who have not yet deployed IPv6, don't know what to do at all. > > OK. There's a part of me that suggests that the avenues they have followed for IPv4 will likely serve them well for IPv6 - if they got their IPv4 prefix from APNIC or CNNIC, that might be an obvious place to get an IPv6 prefix, for example. But yes, we can give them some guidelines and some educational references. > >> Some want guidelines like, go and get a /32, register it in an IRR (if they do so with IPv4), check if your router supports IPv6, and if not choose a transition deployment model, route the prefix, buy transit, and finally bring some server up so the world can see you that you have IPv6. This is ISP 101 stuff that any operator should know, but some request this kind of guidance. I don't really see value in having a document that describes all these steps. > > Yes: > > Go to your favorite RIR and get an ISP prefix (default /32, but they want to actually ask for a prefix that will address your current footprint. In short, they will want a prefix for each of their customers, and have guidelines in their RIR's rules (/48 per customer, perhaps /52, /56, or /60 options, please don't assign /64s to networks - they are for LANs). If you need (oversimplifying dramatically, follow the logic not the specific example) a /56 for each of more than 13 million SMB customers (80% of 2^56 / 2^32), don't ask for a /32, ask for a /31 or /30 or whatever you really need. Get enough addresses that you can address all of your present customer base with one prefix. Go back for more at some later time. RFC 3177 suggests that a company's initial allocation should be large enough to handle their business for the readily-foreseeable future. > > Do with that prefix pretty much what you did with IPv4... Exactly. I guess it might seem hard for some people because IPv4 networks have been around for a while and many people have never started up a brand new Interdomain routing network before. But there's nothing new here and just going to RIRs will should give you enough information on what to do. > >> However, many operators who have just started and have at least some knowledge of what IPv6 is, want to know traps in advance. This I think is quite important. The differences between IPv4 and IPv6 that everyone stubles through. I've been asked these same questions over and over again. > > Question. The European Commission has put together a program called 6DEPLOY; it is 2 a 3 days in-depth on the protocols. Would it make sense for deploying companies to take advantage of it? > > The modules can be found in http://www.6deploy.eu/index.php?page=tutorials > An introduction into IPv6: http://www.6deploy.eu/index.php?page=e-learning I haven't looked at all of these documents, but some of them are actually pretty good. The addressing case studies is a good reference and answers some of the questions (although the content needs to be updated a little... many nitty stuff) >> How do you assign an address in your network? (recommended prefix length and value of interface ID) > > I think a good place to start with that is > > http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc4291.txt > 4291 IP Version 6 Addressing Architecture. R. Hinden, S. Deering. > February 2006. (Format: TXT=52897 bytes) (Obsoletes RFC3513) (Status: > DRAFT STANDARD) > > and > > http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc3177.txt > 3177 IAB/IESG Recommendations on IPv6 Address Allocations to Sites. > IAB, IESG. September 2001. (Format: TXT=23178 bytes) (Status: > INFORMATIONAL) > > The latter is in the process of being updated: > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-narten-ipv6-3177bis-48boundary > "IPv6 Address Assignment to End Sites", Thomas Narten, Geoff Huston, > Rosalea Roberts, 12-Jul-10 I think the addressing case studies from 6deploy give the best answer to this question. > > Each of the RIRs also has a policy on prefix allocation; they are similar but not necessarily exactly the same. RIPE's is at http://www.ripe.net/docs/ipv6policy.html; can someone (Randy?) supply appropriate links for all of the RIR policies? > > The architecture presumes that a /64 is assigned to a LAN subnet, such as an Ethernet or WiFi domain. A recent output from 6man is found at > > http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc5942.txt > 5942 IPv6 Subnet Model: The Relationship between Links and Subnet > Prefixes. H. Singh, W. Beebee, E. Nordmark. July 2010. (Format: > TXT=27035 bytes) (Updates RFC4861) (Status: PROPOSED STANDARD) > > and goes into that in some detail. > > The architecture presumes that the remaining 64 bits are an endpoint interface identifier. This could be the MAC Address (EUI-64 Address) in an appropriate encoding, or it could be what is called a "privacy address", which is a random number. You will find the most common approach to that, for hosts, in > > http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc4862.txt > 4862 IPv6 Stateless Address Autoconfiguration. S. Thomson, T. Narten, > T. Jinmei. September 2007. (Format: TXT=72482 bytes) (Obsoletes > RFC2462) (Status: DRAFT STANDARD) > > http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc4941.txt > 4941 Privacy Extensions for Stateless Address Autoconfiguration in > IPv6. T. Narten, R. Draves, S. Krishnan. September 2007. (Format: > TXT=56699 bytes) (Obsoletes RFC3041) (Status: DRAFT STANDARD) > > There is also a DHCP option: > > http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc3315.txt > 3315 Dynamic Host Configuration Protocol for IPv6 (DHCPv6). R. Droms, > Ed., J. Bound, B. Volz, T. Lemon, C. Perkins, M. Carney. July 2003. > (Format: TXT=231402 bytes) (Updated by RFC4361, RFC5494) (Status: > PROPOSED STANDARD) > > That said, there are other options. One might, for example, look at > > http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-v6ops-v6inixp > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-v6ops-v6inixp > "IPv6 Deployment in Internet Exchange Points (IXPs)", Roque Gagliano, > 15-Jul-10 > > which suggests that in an Internet Exchange Point one might use an address that helps in debugging routing exchanges. One could also look at what other folks do: guess, for example, who is using the address 2620:0:1cfe:face:b00c::3. v6inixp is written very well and reviewed by many engineers from IXPs. Its a document that is based on reality. Very cool. The question that comes up these days is, what link-local address would an connecting ISP assing on their link? We can leave it as EUI, and that's most likely the default, but one down side to that is, sometimes you have to look at the neighbor table, and that only shows link local addresses. You have to go look and see which link local address is associated with the global address you are peering with. I set an address like fe80::2518:1 (2518 is my ASNUM). > >> How do you use link-local? > > In general, link-local addresses are only used in well-defined contexts such as MLDv2, routing, and so on. Not that link-local addresses are a bad thing; they are only useful within a local subnet and therefore there isn't a lot of point in allocating DNS names for them, for example. I personally would use them in those places and otherwise forget them. Sorry, the question was worded badly. Its more of a question that asks, should LL be in my ACL? should I assing static addresses instead of the automatically generated ones? etc. > >> Is there RFC1918 space in IPv6? > > The counterpart is a Unique Local Address. There is a useful web site that will follow the prescribed algorithm and give you one that is or at least has a high probability of being truly unique. > > http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc4193.txt > 4193 Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Addresses. R. Hinden, B. Haberman. > October 2005. (Format: TXT=35908 bytes) (Status: PROPOSED STANDARD) > > http://www.sixxs.net/main/ Actually I would answer no to that question. The technical differences are pretty big at this point. That includes NAT (just as you say), uniqueness, AS112, etc... But you can say that if you wanted to use an address to try in your lab and you don't have global prefix allocated to you because you are not an LIR, ULA would be one of your choices. That would more be like TEST-NET stuff wouldn't it? > Something to understand is that at least at this point, NAT as used in IPv4 is not defined and not used in the IPv6 network, and that is generally considered a good thing. If you want a detailed discussion of the reasons, I'll refer you to some of my colleagues. :-) > >> Is there such a thing as secondary address with IPv6? > > To be honest, there is not a formal definition of a secondary address in IPv4. However, in IPv6, it is normal for an interface to have several addresses - for example, a network that internally uses a ULA and externally has an ISP will have three addresses on every interface - a link-local address, a ULA-based address, and a global address. If you want to consider one of those to be "secondary", be my guest. Agree :-) > >> What's the BGP filtering boundary in IPv6 compimenting the /24 in IPv4? Is there a filtering guideline for IPv6? > > That is generally an RIR recommendation. Randy or Philip, can I turn to you again for appropriate links? I've been asking many people "what do you filter at?" recently. One would think that people filter at /48, but there are many that filter at /64, some that filter at exact allocation boudaries, and few that filter at /32. I don't think we have common religion yet. The differences in a "full routing table" are pretty big right now raging from somewher around 1800-3500. > > In general, I think there are two considerations. One is that RIRs allocate prefixes of various lengths, mostly /32 and /48, for specific purposes. You don't want to filter out an RIR assignment - if they are allocating /48 PI space in a given prefix, within that prefix you filter to /48 at the shortest. The other is that deaggregation is generally frowned upon and at the same time generally done. I believe (I may well be wrong though) that ARIN suggests that a /32 prefix be filtered at /36, to allow "reasonable" deaggregation without going crazy. The links Randy suggests will be far better commentary on that, though. > >> Operators with more experience have more specific thoughts. > > That's why I'm asking Randy or Philip for help here. > >> Why does OSPFv3 not display global scope address associated with the interface? > > A "why did you make this decision" question might be a better question for the relevant working group. That said, from http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc5340.txt > 5340 OSPF for IPv6. R. Coltun, D. Ferguson, J. Moy, A. Lindem. July > 2008. (Format: TXT=225664 bytes) (Obsoletes RFC2740) (Status: > PROPOSED STANDARD) > > 2.3. Addition of Flooding Scope > > Flooding scope for LSAs has been generalized and is now explicitly > coded in the LSA's LS type field. There are now three separate > flooding scopes for LSAs: > > o Link-local scope. LSA is only flooded on the local link and no > further. Used for the new link-LSA. See Section 4.4.3.8 for > details. > > o Area scope. LSA is only flooded throughout a single OSPF area. > Used for router-LSAs, network-LSAs, inter-area-prefix-LSAs, inter- > area-router-LSAs, and intra-area-prefix-LSAs. > > o AS scope. LSA is flooded throughout the routing domain. Used for > AS-external-LSAs. A router that originates AS scoped LSAs is > considered an AS Boundary Router (ASBR) and will set its E-bit in > router-LSAs for regular areas. > > On virtual links, a global scope IPv6 address MUST be used as the > source address for OSPF protocol packets. > > I think the discussion of scope in OSPF is about the scope of an LSA flood, not the scope of the address. Global scope addresses are in fact mandated in some cases and are certainly supported in all. > > If I didn't understand your question, please feel free to ask more particularly. ID Interface State Pri Dead 192.168.2.1 xe-0/0/0.0 Full 1 32 Neighbor-address fe80::2:1 Where's my global address? > >> Why is VRRPv3's global VIP optional and not implemented by some? > > Great questions for the VRRP WG and the vendors in question. Yes. I have asked in in the VRRP list, one person answered that global address support is implicit. This IMHO should be changed. I do know about Randy's wiki, and I think it rocks. Unfortunately, wikis only work locally. They don't get the global attention that it deserves. IETF does, which is why I think a discussion here is worthwhile. Regards, Seiichi > >> What FIB size should we expect with IPv6? > > That depends. If we enumerate edge networks - if we allocate a PI prefix to every network at the edge - we should expect the size of the FIB to be comparable to the number of edge networks in the world. That looks a lot like 10^7 in not-very-long. That was the point of Marla Azinger's discussion in IETF-78 regarding > > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-azinger-cidrv6 > "CIDR for IPv6: Address Aggregation, Allocation, and Assignment > Strategy", Marla Azinger, Tony Li, Jason Weil, 29-Jun-10 > > If we enumerate transit networks and have edge networks derive their prefixes from their upstream, using PA addressing, we should expect the size of the FIB to be some small multiple of the number of transit providers in the world (per the CIDR Report, on the order of 5000) plus the size of one's internal network. That varies a lot, of course, but there are ways to aggregate that can materially help. > > In essence, that is the point of the locator/id split discussion in RRG, the discussion in > > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-troan-multihoming-without-nat66 > "IPv6 Multihoming without Network Address Translation", Ole Troan, David > Miles, Satoru Matsushima, Tadahisa Okimoto, Dan Wing, 26-Jul-10 > > and the discussions in http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-mrw-behave-nat66 and > > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-rja-ilnp-dns > "DNS Resource Records for ILNP", Randall Atkinson, 24-Jun-10 > > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-rja-ilnp-icmp > "ICMP Locator Update message", Randall Atkinson, 24-Jun-10 > > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-rja-ilnp-intro > "ILNP Concept of Operations", Randall Atkinson, 24-Jun-10 > > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-rja-ilnp-nonce > "Nonce Destination Option", Randall Atkinson, 24-Jun-10 > > I'm going to stop talking before I start a flame war... > >> Are broacasts with IPv4 and ND with IPv6 treated the same way in my L2 switch? > > Link layer multicast is ignorant of the network layer, apart from behaviors like MLD snooping. IPv4 Multicast and IPv6 Multicast work about the same way, modulo differences related to the address itself. That said, take a look at > http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc3306.txt > 3306 Unicast-Prefix-based IPv6 Multicast Addresses. B. Haberman, D. > Thaler. August 2002. (Format: TXT=12713 bytes) (Updated by RFC3956, > RFC4489) (Status: PROPOSED STANDARD) > > http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc3956.txt > 3956 Embedding the Rendezvous Point (RP) Address in an IPv6 Multicast > Address. P. Savola, B. Haberman. November 2004. (Format: TXT=40136 > bytes) (Updates RFC3306) (Status: PROPOSED STANDARD) > >> How should be use rDNS with IPv6? > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reverse_DNS_lookup. It is essentially as in IPv4, but uses ip6.arpa and enumerates hex rather than decimal digits. > >> To summarize my long and rough comments (sorry) "what is the difference between IPv6 and IPv4 that we should be aware of?" is the question that many tend to ask and is always a popular topic in my local NOG (JANOG). > > JANOG of course has extensive experience here. I suspect that it also ha a wiki in which it has captured much of this, and if JANOG has not then RIPE, IPNIC, or someone else has. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (MingW32) iEYEARECAAYFAkxsgysACgkQcrhTYfxyMkJmbwCgj1ie+RqU0jAW+TOpu/oo9ExB 0nMAn3yAJy4QhxTKsErZ7xVP7VXYqlJW =Zj0P -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Wed Aug 18 19:21:49 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F62E3A67B1 for ; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 19:21:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tWvxVTdXfn1u for ; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 19:21:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2911D3A6781 for ; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 19:21:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Oluh5-000414-Bu for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Thu, 19 Aug 2010 02:17:27 +0000 Received: from [2001:418:1::81] (helo=nagasaki.bogus.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Oluh3-00040p-3a for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 19 Aug 2010 02:17:25 +0000 Received: from joelja-mac.local (adsl-75-36-141-218.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net [75.36.141.218]) (authenticated bits=0) by nagasaki.bogus.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id o7J2HFV9026479 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Thu, 19 Aug 2010 02:17:21 GMT (envelope-from joelja@bogus.com) Message-ID: <4C6C942C.4030604@bogus.com> Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 19:17:16 -0700 From: Joel Jaeggli User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10.6; en-US; rv:1.9.2.8) Gecko/20100802 Lightning/1.0b2 Thunderbird/3.1.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Fernando Gont , v6ops@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: Nimrod for IPv6? References: <4C6C5986.7080009@gont.com.ar> In-Reply-To: <4C6C5986.7080009@gont.com.ar> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.2 (nagasaki.bogus.com [147.28.0.81]); Thu, 19 Aug 2010 02:17:22 +0000 (UTC) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: the nimrod drafts and rfc's were done as part of the ipng process. so yeah rfc 1753 isn't really aimed at anything other than the future ipng protocol even if nimrod is/was agnostic about that... On 8/18/10 3:07 PM, Fernando Gont wrote: > Hi, folks, > > Routing Header Type 1, and option 0x8a (Endpoint Identification), are > related to the Nimrod routing system. > > Has Nimrod for IPv6 ever been specified? If so, has there ever been any > deployments? > > Put another way: should one expect to find occurrences of RHT1 and/or > option 0x8a? I would imagine not. > Thanks! > > Kind regards, From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Wed Aug 18 19:53:26 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CC4E3A6A92 for ; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 19:53:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.884 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.884 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.485, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_13=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_25=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5seN1IN8tyVi for ; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 19:53:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5131A3A683A for ; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 19:53:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OlvEA-0008am-68 for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Thu, 19 Aug 2010 02:51:38 +0000 Received: from [2001:418:1::40] (helo=ran.psg.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OlvE7-0008aV-JG for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 19 Aug 2010 02:51:35 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=rmac.psg.com.psg.com) by ran.psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OlvE6-000D7V-GJ; Thu, 19 Aug 2010 02:51:35 +0000 Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 11:51:33 +0900 Message-ID: From: Randy Bush To: v6ops@ops.ietf.org, v4tov6transition@ietf.org Subject: Re: [v4tov6transition] draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC In-Reply-To: <282BBE8A501E1F4DA9C775F964BB21FE3EADE5554F@GRFMBX704BA020.griffon.local> <4C6C6D85.30507@gmail.com> References: <018544C5-8D1E-412A-B6E4-F12623E66366@cisco.com> <3CEE3B27-7926-48A6-A4A4-BEC1B5C9AD5E@cisco.com> <4C6A14F2.9090107@mesh.ad.jp> <364D16EC-7E20-4B4B-A717-ADBED7552DA4@cisco.com> <282BBE8A501E1F4DA9C775F964BB21FE3EADE5554B@GRFMBX704BA020.griffon.local> <55CF41D1D1344F3684F21C134E9A4B1D@china.huawei.com> <282BBE8A501E1F4DA9C775F964BB21FE3EADE5554F@GRFMBX704BA020.griffon.local> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 (Almost Unreal) Emacs/22.3 Mule/5.0 (SAKAKI) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI 1.14.6 - "Maruoka") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: > Thanks for your answer. I agree with you in principle, as a Service > Provider we need some guidelines that help us with v4 to v6 > co-existence an transition phases, and we really need them now, but we > should try to avoid fragmenting and/or duplicating the work in > different places/working groups. bingo! we already did ng6trans, i think it was called. it exploded in a thousand pieces of mostly unnecessary inventions. but lots of folk did get on author lists. i would also caution against exploring the space of how to make it so that networks that have been sickly broken with things such as cgn can claim to also handle ipv6. make your bed, lie in it. let cgn have fun in behave or wherever. and the working tunnel-v6-through-v4 tools we have either work through the we-can-sell-monsterous-spof-to-carriers or they can hack on the perpetuata-ipv4-and-rfc1918-forever gadgets until the v6 tunneling tools do work. just do it under a rock where such things belong. sez Fred Baker : > That's actually incorrect; v6ops is about the operation of IPv6 networks yep. but not about how to pretend an rfc 1918 v4 network can be called a v6 network. sez From: Cameron Byrne > These sound more like training issues that are better handled by ops > folks, and ops folks generally participate more in groups like NANOG > and other *NOGs. There are also some very relevant IPv6 operations > mailing lists that handle tactical issues. > ... > Also, to be frank, i do not believe the majority of the participants > in the IETF even work or have current experience at network operators. both ears and the tail! sez Brian Carpenter: >> Also, to be frank, i do not believe the majority of the participants >> in the IETF even work or have current experience at network >> operators. > Then we'd better get contributions from the minority that do. where was that box of q-tips? sez Cameron Byrne : > IMHO, traditional dual-stack is not viable for transition. There are > not incentives for me to dual stack at home, work, or while mobile. i agree that DS is not what you want off the backbone. v6 with nat64 should be encouraged at home and at work. but i think you want the isps to have dual stack backbones for a while. randy From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Wed Aug 18 21:19:45 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 277373A6835 for ; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 21:19:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.968 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.968 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.473, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SSldHhkJ9W81 for ; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 21:19:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F0D83A6834 for ; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 21:19:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OlwXf-000Ico-T9 for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Thu, 19 Aug 2010 04:15:51 +0000 Received: from [209.85.160.180] (helo=mail-gy0-f180.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OlwXb-000Ic4-Fs for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 19 Aug 2010 04:15:47 +0000 Received: by gye5 with SMTP id 5so750073gye.11 for ; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 21:15:46 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:received:in-reply-to :references:date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=nc3VhZkYkzRVoBaHJQvR6Y6p54iV/NW1nwvSWAVLFDw=; b=fGTmzT+MVj/f5kscd2u3Nha1QgtoLsIFQjj99lLh04eLScyCi2WHrCam+ypuKI+Pd6 3GkxokkVC6UvWHfyJsLqH7x3hVU6rC4N1ImZfwx6G2hSQZ4+HhPUeyCxdo2VIQA8urwT Sngg8LBLMLL1T3q0pSErAAK/WM+Hf0EYBhsXw= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=Ljh3OwP4BK0gfb3qANz+tviKqfNXKT4PTuGHcWnz8JcfnPfSkmq4806M1lX6p/ApTo ASGkfUmaRhB8OCp1qc/l2mjPBRx6b3slFJ/fo+IchfBLHhzFbKBy8U2OwFaEokFs6E9M LedUHm6KnD+iM/0G02aTi4namEIgvuZU5HtZo= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.151.82.14 with SMTP id j14mr1221218ybl.307.1282191346611; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 21:15:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.12.2 with HTTP; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 21:15:46 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <018544C5-8D1E-412A-B6E4-F12623E66366@cisco.com> <3CEE3B27-7926-48A6-A4A4-BEC1B5C9AD5E@cisco.com> <4C6A14F2.9090107@mesh.ad.jp> <364D16EC-7E20-4B4B-A717-ADBED7552DA4@cisco.com> <282BBE8A501E1F4DA9C775F964BB21FE3EADE5554B@GRFMBX704BA020.griffon.local> <55CF41D1D1344F3684F21C134E9A4B1D@china.huawei.com> <282BBE8A501E1F4DA9C775F964BB21FE3EADE5554F@GRFMBX704BA020.griffon.local> <4C6C6D85.30507@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 21:15:46 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [v4tov6transition] draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC From: Cameron Byrne To: Randy Bush Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org, v4tov6transition@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: > > i agree that DS is not what you want off the backbone. =A0v6 with nat64 > should be encouraged at home and at work. =A0but i think you want the isp= s > to have dual stack backbones for a while. Yes, I agree. I tend to only speak for my use case in mobile wireless. The numbering problem is at the end nodes and access providers have to feel the pain (or no gain). DS backbone should be old hat for the major backbone ISPs. From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Wed Aug 18 21:43:33 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 88F693A6833 for ; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 21:43:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.92 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.92 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.425, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fHw9-skT9dqt for ; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 21:43:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC06B3A67E7 for ; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 21:43:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Olwwo-000LK2-MG for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Thu, 19 Aug 2010 04:41:50 +0000 Received: from [209.85.160.180] (helo=mail-gy0-f180.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Olwwk-000LJC-Io for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 19 Aug 2010 04:41:47 +0000 Received: by gye5 with SMTP id 5so760132gye.11 for ; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 21:41:43 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:received:in-reply-to :references:date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=+hHf4wgpiYtcVwZouED2V77rgmm8Tr7udlISejjraKY=; b=C6gb2E3GBxc9FECtZPudOwsExPeg0mIBI+WRFOC1v4N3WfY7XL/shpuJYAV7RnK7Iv KtX73MBSHgAyZJMMKdv7aTLF4A//+yCaY7L+CdvlohtfiGNM65dXSK3RX3q+z4Bx/I2P F7gDz0EMBl+cScHuOoJQ2xgwsS8HczmPX0YUQ= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=Xx3IZ/KQ6nkDvSKsnPu6z+R1W9aliKtuuprpVrwN5BK8BEAJqdGkegrj6WmgRUSTr4 Jsn7Te3X5TTX7zYTfK39w/dSuC1PreJ1reV03+Hf9k5/yfHOpCXu6KQyVIJp44vIrRBQ XPcnMu1S5vFBCl2jO/t1wc+H7UtuYP5QcdUS4= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.151.131.7 with SMTP id i7mr1254033ybn.281.1282192902915; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 21:41:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.12.2 with HTTP; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 21:41:42 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <00C0B23A-EF43-49BA-953C-695CC3FE6CB0@cisco.com> References: <018544C5-8D1E-412A-B6E4-F12623E66366@cisco.com> <00C0B23A-EF43-49BA-953C-695CC3FE6CB0@cisco.com> Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 21:41:42 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC From: Cameron Byrne To: Fred Baker Cc: "v6ops@ops.ietf.org Operations" , Kurt Erik Lindqvist , Ron Bonica , draft-ietf-behave-v6v4-framework@tools.ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: On Wed, Aug 18, 2010 at 4:27 PM, Fred Baker wrote: > I'd let Jari speak for himself, but he's gone for a couple of weeks. > > On Aug 18, 2010, at 3:57 PM, Cameron Byrne wrote: > >> On Sun, Aug 15, 2010 at 11:00 AM, Fred Baker wrote: >>> This is to initiate a two week working group last call >>> of draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines. Please read it now. If you f= ind >>> nits (spelling errors, minor suggested wording changes, etc), comment t= o the >>> authors; if you find greater issues, such as disagreeing with a stateme= nt or >>> finding additional issues that need to be addressed, please post your >>> comments to the list. >>> We are looking specifically for comments on the importance of the docum= ent >>> as well as its content. If you have read the document and believe it to= be >>> of operational utility, that is also an important comment to make. >> >> Dear authors, >> >> I remain troubled that we are still pushing dual-stack as the >> preferred transition mechanism. =A0I think we should add more language >> stating that IPv6-only + NAT64 is very viable for general use, >> especially in mobile, a very high growth area for IP address usage. > > I certainly tried to edit that in, in section 4.4. It does have issues, n= otably in dealing with refers (if the target system tells you to redirect y= our request to an IPv4 address, how do you handle that?). But yes, it is op= erationally useful in those networks that have deployed it. > Right, IPv4 literals are a problem for IPv6-only networks. But, i am trying to control the FUD that tends to steam up from this type of issue as well as resolve the root cause issues. To that end, i direct you to http://groups.google.com/group/ipv4literals. I have been IPv6-only on mobile for 6 months and i have 2 known issues in the catalog. If you know of more, please help me catalog them so that problems that can be fixed, get fixed. I know there are problems that cannot be fixed, but those applications will evolve to deal with IPv6 and IPv4 exhaust or fade away into brokeness. Please, lets keep a close eye on this IPv4 literal issue and make sure we wrap our concerns in facts and use those facts to drive action. > Can I ask you to suggest text? > >> Jari has already presented his finding, which i view as very positive, >> here http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/78/slides/behave-6.pdf > > Hmm. You might read http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-arkko-ipv6-only-expe= rience > =A0"Experiences from an IPv6-Only Network", Jari Arkko, Ari Keranen, > =A012-Jul-10, > > which is Jari's write-up on his experience. In the deck you refer to, the= key take-awways are on slide 4 and 10; there are some things that worked, = and some things that really didn't. Jari, having tried IPv6-only, was pleas= ed with what worked but troubled =A0by the things that didn't. Xing Li has = also commented to me on issues that CERNET2 has. > I am seeing a broad brush strokes here. From Jari's slide deck, i see a delta of 0.2% breakage between IPv4-only and IPv6+NAT64 for web. That is the long tail. I am willing to send that 0.2% an email and tell them they need to fix their IPv4 referrals or move to IPv6 to ensure reachability in 12 months when IPv6-only service appear in earnest. I agree that online games are an issue per Jari's report, but my mobile customers don't really do that today on their phones. It might also be relevant to say that when many ISPs add their aggregate traffic to Facebook and Google together, it starts to look like around 40% of their bits go to these 2 AS's..... and those 2 AS's have strong IPv6 efforts today.... so they don't even go via NAT64. >> I would like to see some of the content from his deck added to this >> draft. =A0As it stands, the draft gives me the impression that IPv6-only >> is only for niche deployments and futuristic sensor networks. > > OK, no problem. I'll add the second recommendation on slide 10 of Jari's = deck to the draft. Oops, I don't need to - it's already there. > >> Today, >> IPv6-only is a real solution that i have trials going on with, and i >> believe it is very functional for most common users, more at >> http://groups.google.com/group/tmoipv6beta >> >> Also, unilateral sounds bad. =A0Makes me feel like IPv6-only is not a >> cooperative or friendly path. =A0I would say "Pure IPv6" or "IPv6 >> end-state deployments" which require gateways to IPv4 > > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-behave-v6v4-framework > =A0"Framework for IPv4/IPv6 Translation", Fred Baker, Xing Li, Congxiao > =A0Bao, Kevin Yin, 17-Aug-10 > > which is on its way to RFC-dom defines: > A great effort. Thank you and the team. > =A0 IPv6-only: =A0An IPv6-only implementation, in this context, comprises > =A0 =A0 =A0an IPv6-enabled end system stack, applications directly or > =A0 =A0 =A0indirectly using that IPv6 stack, plus routing in the network.= =A0It > =A0 =A0 =A0implies that two application instances are capable of > =A0 =A0 =A0communicating using IPv6, but not IPv4 - they have an IPv6 sta= ck, > =A0 =A0 =A0addresses, and network support including routing in IPv6, but = some > =A0 =A0 =A0element is missing that prevents communication with IPv4 hosts= . > > Would it be OK with you if I changed that to "IPv6-only deployment"? > That sounds better to me. >> IMHO, traditional dual-stack is not viable for transition. =A0There are >> not incentives for me to dual stack at home, work, or while mobile. > > That's interesting, given the number of networks that have followed that = route. I wonder what other operators would say about that? > As in my note to Randy, i am just talking about end-nodes and access network, and really only mobile. Not many end-nodes and access network are dual-stack. Comcast is an outstanding example of going dual-stack. Nearly everyone else in the access space is not, hence 6RD. >> Traditional dual-stack does not provide a better user experience and >> it does not save me any IPv4 addresses. =A0Dual-stack + NAT44 may >> eventually have some benefits if I can by-pass the NAT44 with native >> IPv6. =A0Same can be said for DS-lite. =A0But, traditional dual-stack >> (public IPv4 and IPv6) is a non-starter. =A0And the idealistic notion >> that dual-stack leads to a future where eventually everything will go >> IPv6 and we can just turn off IPv4 without anyone knowing stopped >> being viable around 2005, transition time ran out and nobody deployed >> it. =A0Without incentives (carrots, sticks, other ...) dual-stack will >> remain a science experiment for those inclined to do so, not a real >> solution for end users numbering. =A0The real solutions that real >> network service providers are deploying are address sharing mechanisms >> that favor IPv6 end to end (DS + NAT44, DS-lite, NAT64). =A0Anything >> else does not have the appropriate market mechanisms (Bad CGN >> experience, motivate IPv6 native content to avoid CGN, uniquely >> numbered users for e2e multimedia) to engender change. >> >> I believe the IETF needs to be much more forceful in pushing >> IPv6-first solutions. =A0Straddling the fence with traditional >> dual-stack in not a real solution and re-enforces the notion that "I >> do not have to do anything with IPv6, since dual-stack people will >> always have IPv4" or "IPv6-only is not ready". =A0If we embrace a more >> aggressive IPv6 path (which is the reality of IPv4 exhaust), then we >> begin to stimulate the Internet ecosystem to understand that IPv4 is >> really not the best strategic investment for client to (server | cloud >> | client) communications. > > On that point I agree. That said, for the vast number of networks, the is= sue is not bringing up IPv6 where IPv4 isn't; the issue is bringing up IPv6= in the existing IPv4 network. Hence, in talks I give (ftp://ftpeng.cisco.c= om/fred/nav6tf/Fred_Recent_Talk.pdf being an example), I very explicitly te= ll my audience that the term "transition" implies turning something ON and = turning something OFF, and I am simply talking about DEPLOYMENT, which invo= lves turning something ON. I have no problem with IPv6-only networks apart = from protocols like SMTP, HTTP, FTP, and so on that carry IP addresses at t= he application layer. If we could get those to use names instead of address= es, I would be right with you. > Ok. I know 2 IPv4 literal users, they are in the catalog. Your above statement makes me feel like you know of more, please share them at http://groups.google.com/group/ipv4literals IPv4 literals will not go away on their own, but i feel like i have a good grasp on how IPv4 literals impact today's user experience, and it is negligible impact (on mobile). Amazon Video and mobile.nytimes.com may not think the impact is negligible, but i have already made a good faith attempt to educate and encourage them to resolve this issue before it becomes negatively impactful for them. Finally, customer know they have options when viewing online video and news. I know of one major IPv6 adopter that provides news and video over IPv6 today .... They are sure to work well in an IPv6-only access network. >> Regards, >> >> Cameron >> >> ps. =A0Even in the face of IPv4 exhaust *you* don't need to be worried >> about IPv4 exhaust >> http://www.pcpro.co.uk/realworld/360418/why-you-shouldnt-worry-about-ipv= 6-just-yet > > From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Wed Aug 18 23:14:00 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 790BF3A6843 for ; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 23:14:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.732 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.732 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.622, BAYES_05=-1.11] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rgwFV0D4nWbS for ; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 23:13:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20FDE3A682A for ; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 23:13:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OlyJm-0005F0-1B for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Thu, 19 Aug 2010 06:09:38 +0000 Received: from [2001:418:1::40] (helo=ran.psg.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OlyJj-0005EW-JN for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 19 Aug 2010 06:09:35 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=rmac.psg.com.psg.com) by ran.psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OlyJh-000DUm-Lj; Thu, 19 Aug 2010 06:09:34 +0000 Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 15:09:31 +0900 Message-ID: From: Randy Bush To: Cameron Byrne Cc: IPv6 v6ops , draft-ietf-behave-v6v4-framework@tools.ietf.org Subject: Re: draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC In-Reply-To: References: <018544C5-8D1E-412A-B6E4-F12623E66366@cisco.com> <00C0B23A-EF43-49BA-953C-695CC3FE6CB0@cisco.com> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 (Almost Unreal) Emacs/22.3 Mule/5.0 (SAKAKI) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI 1.14.6 - "Maruoka") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: >>> IMHO, traditional dual-stack is not viable for transition. =A0There are >>> not incentives for me to dual stack at home, work, or while mobile. >> That's interesting, given the number of networks that have followed >> that route. I wonder what other operators would say about that? > As in my note to Randy, i am just talking about end-nodes and access > network, and really only mobile. Not many end-nodes and access > network are dual-stack. the core is moving more and more to dual-stack. aside from issues as are being discussed (overuse of link local for routing protocols, lack of management support in v6, blah blah blah), it is not really hard. much of the cost is in the back office. that is, until we get big v6 traffic and find many of the routers move v6 on the slow path. the 6502 makes such a great forwarding engine. it is not clear to me that we can expect the edge to be dual-stack. big printers can get software upgrades to handle v6. small v4-only printers have low amortization value. the nt, win95, winxp, ... folk can get macs. i admit to being a bit crass here:). but really, when you build a new large lan in 2003, do you really want to make it rfc 1918? i suspect that, five years out, the edge will be bi-modal, a lot of v4-only/1918 crap and some v6/nat64. and then a bunch of disgusting kludge to deal with cgns and other devil spawn. > Comcast is an outstanding example of going dual-stack. thank you john b! > Nearly everyone else in the access space is not, hence 6RD. from 10,000m, what is 6rd but a teredo/6to4 that colludes with the provider who won't do real v6? it's a cute hack, but a hack. we have spent 15 years on hacks to punch ipv6 through the recalcitrant. now we have moved to punching it through the cgn and other foot draggers. i find it hard to become enthused. i think we should stop being reactive and get on the front of the surfboard, focus on making ipv6 easy and attractive to deploy both on the backbone and in the edge. i look forward to the day when i can tell an enterprise or backbone operator that they can enable ipv6 and not have to retrain their noc (or it department), make minimal change to their back end, make minimal change to management, make minimal change to security policy and mechanisms, ... that task is hard enough. randy From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Wed Aug 18 23:17:51 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23A523A6856 for ; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 23:17:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.467 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.467 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.132, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rEYl5nEmPCJs for ; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 23:17:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 424543A682A for ; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 23:17:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OlyRG-0006HG-Ob for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Thu, 19 Aug 2010 06:17:22 +0000 Received: from [2001:418:1::40] (helo=ran.psg.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OlyRD-0006Gs-K3 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 19 Aug 2010 06:17:19 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=rmac.psg.com.psg.com) by ran.psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OlyRC-000DWC-0e; Thu, 19 Aug 2010 06:17:18 +0000 Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 15:17:16 +0900 Message-ID: From: Randy Bush To: Cameron Byrne Cc: IPv6 v6ops , draft-ietf-behave-v6v4-framework@tools.ietf.org Subject: Re: draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC In-Reply-To: References: <018544C5-8D1E-412A-B6E4-F12623E66366@cisco.com> <00C0B23A-EF43-49BA-953C-695CC3FE6CB0@cisco.com> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 (Almost Unreal) Emacs/22.3 Mule/5.0 (SAKAKI) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI 1.14.6 - "Maruoka") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: > macs. i admit to being a bit crass here:). but really, when you build > a new large lan in 2003, do you really want to make it rfc 1918? s/2003/2013/ From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Wed Aug 18 23:25:44 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AAAC83A6809 for ; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 23:25:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -109.113 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-109.113 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.618, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, RDNS_NONE=0.1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id l69SQa4CaQXR for ; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 23:25:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F35E3A67E5 for ; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 23:25:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OlyYB-00079H-6G for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Thu, 19 Aug 2010 06:24:31 +0000 Received: from [171.71.176.117] (helo=sj-iport-6.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OlyY9-00078s-2s for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 19 Aug 2010 06:24:29 +0000 Authentication-Results: sj-iport-6.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AvsEAKNqbEyrRN+J/2dsb2JhbACgWXGgGZtwhTcEhDGFPQ X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.56,231,1280707200"; d="scan'208";a="575679010" Received: from sj-core-3.cisco.com ([171.68.223.137]) by sj-iport-6.cisco.com with ESMTP; 19 Aug 2010 06:24:28 +0000 Received: from stealth-10-32-244-220.cisco.com (stealth-10-32-244-220.cisco.com [10.32.244.220]) by sj-core-3.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o7J6OLXD005918; Thu, 19 Aug 2010 06:24:23 GMT Received: from [127.0.0.1] by stealth-10-32-244-220.cisco.com (PGP Universal service); Wed, 18 Aug 2010 23:24:28 -0700 X-PGP-Universal: processed; by stealth-10-32-244-220.cisco.com on Wed, 18 Aug 2010 23:24:28 -0700 Subject: Re: draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1081) From: Fred Baker In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 23:24:14 -0700 Cc: Cameron Byrne , IPv6 v6ops , draft-ietf-behave-v6v4-framework@tools.ietf.org Message-Id: <7345289C-2A9D-4033-8549-F5FB985213D1@cisco.com> References: <018544C5-8D1E-412A-B6E4-F12623E66366@cisco.com> <00C0B23A-EF43-49BA-953C-695CC3FE6CB0@cisco.com> To: Randy Bush X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1081) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: On Aug 18, 2010, at 11:09 PM, Randy Bush wrote: > it is not clear to me that we can expect the edge to be dual-stack. big > printers can get software upgrades to handle v6. small v4-only printers > have low amortization value. My Canon MP620, a low-end all-in-one, came from the store with both. From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Wed Aug 18 23:39:25 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A94F03A6864 for ; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 23:39:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.469 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.469 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.130, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JMP8IDyPE3F3 for ; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 23:39:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C49513A6843 for ; Wed, 18 Aug 2010 23:39:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OlylK-00092w-LD for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Thu, 19 Aug 2010 06:38:06 +0000 Received: from [2001:418:1::40] (helo=ran.psg.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OlylI-00092b-JP for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 19 Aug 2010 06:38:04 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=rmac.psg.com.psg.com) by ran.psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OlylH-000DZ7-Fx; Thu, 19 Aug 2010 06:38:03 +0000 Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 15:38:02 +0900 Message-ID: From: Randy Bush To: Fred Baker Cc: IPv6 Ops WG , draft-ietf-behave-v6v4-framework@tools.ietf.org Subject: Re: draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC In-Reply-To: <7345289C-2A9D-4033-8549-F5FB985213D1@cisco.com> References: <018544C5-8D1E-412A-B6E4-F12623E66366@cisco.com> <00C0B23A-EF43-49BA-953C-695CC3FE6CB0@cisco.com> <7345289C-2A9D-4033-8549-F5FB985213D1@cisco.com> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 (Almost Unreal) Emacs/22.3 Mule/5.0 (SAKAKI) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI 1.14.6 - "Maruoka") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: >> it is not clear to me that we can expect the edge to be dual-stack. big >> printers can get software upgrades to handle v6. small v4-only printers >> have low amortization value. > My Canon MP620, a low-end all-in-one, came from the store with both. kerzactly! my point is o weird edge (wireless etc) are agile and are or will move and will use weird kludges to get to the internet anyway. at least they have stopped trying to be walled gardens o the provider core is becoming dual stack or ipv6 except for some recalcitrant broadband providers o there are some v4-only devices in home/enterprise which will have to depreciate. but do not buy v4-only devices now with the plan that they will last more than a year or two at most. and the job of the ietf is to make this ing *easy* randy From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Aug 19 07:52:26 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12C173A6829 for ; Thu, 19 Aug 2010 07:52:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.933 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.933 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.332, BAYES_00=-2.599, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QU1zIGPK+m7m for ; Thu, 19 Aug 2010 07:52:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16C273A68C2 for ; Thu, 19 Aug 2010 07:52:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Om6Ol-000P0f-36 for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Thu, 19 Aug 2010 14:47:19 +0000 Received: from web111408.mail.gq1.yahoo.com ([67.195.15.174]) by psg.com with smtp (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Om6Oi-000P03-9H for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 19 Aug 2010 14:47:16 +0000 Received: (qmail 5910 invoked by uid 60001); 19 Aug 2010 14:47:15 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s1024; t=1282229235; bh=IU/GOLlbe6Lq1jeuUqofG492mkduYssrZvbuSxn6/xg=; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Date:From:Reply-To:Subject:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=XBcbjCabvF2GWB+LyU2z73QiK7iOmRNmZnVGHcqtVAkXa4lzQPTxObEkbCBJl84evQQ2sXadvr/B1nCc6bZuu9kBVfpCI7ZabhCaZ4gk1onz2Ozr4VYIZyKO3lA7RmmrbIljqoKILJMSThWWZ934tGfnx8bph12A6GrDPp0hZys= DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Date:From:Reply-To:Subject:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=wqO9Ew1kfEY4d+jgwX5wqPj8aw7xAFy+3cwWIOyf3Qt/YkZu4v+SU7ablsvsbmZdITHZEOr2feYS43qhLYCfr7iaddjyRk21mck+SVZmPJMrw/ZrTANP2D7aDM8IsmHCLyvdeo17laeKvwrodOB7VWGDYu5BCJQI4dlFZXj3sdg=; Message-ID: <433031.5545.qm@web111408.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: rjmYLHYVM1lXefBJteaNY_18mZ_7mOVDFkQIg1.DKZGLoD2 IqKjEyBxu4_VPfW_h13uwrvOQze0skHSiorz4QiwSselxUd97Vys64epa7uV GNLnEShGQDNYiaw4bRRRUZheYVyVhfaDPvpeMvmeA.5.SRF5uH3wYIu2OvD5 4VE.APlf.iIFO1yu1I10Dm6Xxy76m37PlhC9WH6ufnEXlrZZQB1oYLTjeg1q lL2Y_o7EKPO4vTCydOnZZgntskwbc3nAFpMAOCVUBJpIdp9zAqZDwjc2GG8A AZ7WVRxn14VceIMiRpzAw090TNrwqs4ZMmJErGdiT Received: from [206.16.17.212] by web111408.mail.gq1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 19 Aug 2010 07:47:15 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/470 YahooMailWebService/0.8.105.279950 References: <018544C5-8D1E-412A-B6E4-F12623E66366@cisco.com> Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 07:47:15 -0700 (PDT) From: Behcet Sarikaya Reply-To: Behcet Sarikaya Subject: Re: draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC To: Cameron Byrne , Fred Baker Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: Hi Cameron, > > IMHO, traditional dual-stack is not viable for transition. There are > not incentives for me to dual stack at home, work, or while mobile. > Traditional dual-stack does not provide a better user experience and > it does not save me any IPv4 addresses. Dual-stack + NAT44 may > eventually have some benefits if I can by-pass the NAT44 with native > IPv6. Same can be said for DS-lite. But, traditional dual-stack > (public IPv4 and IPv6) is a non-starter. And the idealistic notion > that dual-stack leads to a future where eventually everything will go > IPv6 and we can just turn off IPv4 without anyone knowing stopped > being viable around 2005, transition time ran out and nobody deployed > it. Without incentives (carrots, sticks, other ...) dual-stack will > remain a science experiment for those inclined to do so, not a real > solution for end users numbering. The real solutions that real > network service providers are deploying are address sharing mechanisms > that favor IPv6 end to end (DS + NAT44, DS-lite, NAT64). Anything > else does not have the appropriate market mechanisms (Bad CGN > experience, motivate IPv6 native content to avoid CGN, uniquely > numbered users for e2e multimedia) to engender change. > I agree but you need to convince 3GPP on this. If you read 23.975, they recommend dual-stack and that's it. Regards, Behcet From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Aug 19 09:00:33 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C70FF3A6A3F for ; Thu, 19 Aug 2010 09:00:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.882 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.882 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.387, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id n2dVulWgPjnt for ; Thu, 19 Aug 2010 09:00:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2EB5E3A6A27 for ; Thu, 19 Aug 2010 09:00:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Om7TL-00097k-GE for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Thu, 19 Aug 2010 15:56:07 +0000 Received: from [209.85.161.180] (helo=mail-gx0-f180.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Om7TG-00097E-W5 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 19 Aug 2010 15:56:03 +0000 Received: by gxk22 with SMTP id 22so1148214gxk.11 for ; Thu, 19 Aug 2010 08:56:01 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:received:in-reply-to :references:date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=i95g2cAJzY7Gtn5m/pl2wIW7nu+WXXap4fvClBTF9LQ=; b=GPMLmr4e0goufZEHXOxbmJd+1/h5E25JlgoOTeLHBOgeTF/Jf5CMO1uhF5PjOocIJo UwU0RY23S/oSDHlKuwXMqB7B/Bph4OskYnhXjqmYD9f3as3n+xJNqGebaFx9/Zdm2WMf V27YD0bdHJiaez+cVBs5CXEGPWFjrDqZ8alHs= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=Wa/wCGHAh6CmXEq2H/QKeCDngTP0r9BQsspToHq2pZFOGHffbdX+QLONIkBeJbBxmx yIiiwSON6OsmiGWZXocMvvhTPsPPY2zg7tl7M6NkVECDBjaKPfJJ8RKaq9A708ByveWC OwlNayXv4/JPPml/WiRLijGrZAz4WcCYwg9Do= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.150.52.11 with SMTP id z11mr433287ybz.160.1282233361426; Thu, 19 Aug 2010 08:56:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.12.2 with HTTP; Thu, 19 Aug 2010 08:56:01 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <433031.5545.qm@web111408.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <018544C5-8D1E-412A-B6E4-F12623E66366@cisco.com> <433031.5545.qm@web111408.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 08:56:01 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC From: Cameron Byrne To: Behcet Sarikaya Cc: Fred Baker , v6ops@ops.ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: On Thu, Aug 19, 2010 at 7:47 AM, Behcet Sarikaya wrote: > Hi Cameron, > > > > >> >> IMHO, traditional dual-stack is not viable for =A0transition. =A0There a= re >> not incentives for me to dual stack at home, =A0work, or while mobile. >> Traditional dual-stack does not provide a better user =A0experience and >> it does not save me any IPv4 addresses. =A0Dual-stack + =A0NAT44 may >> eventually have some benefits if I can by-pass the NAT44 with =A0native >> IPv6. =A0Same can be said for DS-lite. =A0But, traditional =A0dual-stack >> (public IPv4 and IPv6) is a non-starter. =A0And the idealistic =A0notion >> that dual-stack leads to a future where eventually everything will =A0go >> IPv6 and we can just turn off IPv4 without anyone knowing stopped >> being =A0viable around 2005, transition time ran out and nobody deployed >> it. =A0 Without incentives (carrots, sticks, other ...) dual-stack will >> remain a =A0science experiment for those inclined to do so, not a real >> solution for end =A0users numbering. =A0The real solutions that real >> network service providers =A0are deploying are address sharing mechanism= s >> that favor IPv6 end to end (DS + =A0NAT44, DS-lite, NAT64). =A0Anything >> else does not have the appropriate =A0market mechanisms (Bad CGN >> experience, motivate IPv6 native content to avoid =A0CGN, uniquely >> numbered users for e2e multimedia) to engender change. >> > > > I agree but you need to convince 3GPP on this. If you read 23.975, they > recommend dual-stack and that's it. > I don't believe i need to convince the 3GPP of anything since they are not directly involved in designing my network. Granted, it is nice when our ideas align, but the standards and gear i use to execute on my IPv6-only UE plans are already solid and my reference beta deployment is complete with 50+ IPv6-only paying customers. So, while the 3GPP is writing docs, i am deploying services. It is worth noting that IPv6-only is part of the 3GPP doc, but clearly the 3GPP world is focused on dual-stack with IPv4 addresses that providers don't have now and won't have in the future (private or public addresses). Regarding this 3GPP document you referenced: http://3gppprotocol.com/web_documents/23975-111-ipv6-migr-guide.pdf I don't like the language in it and i don't believe it accurately reflects the sentiment and agreement that was achieved at the IETF-3GPP meeting in San Francisco. http://www.3gpp.org/ftp/workshop/2010-03-01_IPv4-to-IPv6_with-IETF/Docs./IP= W100060.zip In the IPv6-only section, it seems to reference host based translation which was not popular at the meeting. I know that the host based translation supporters have a new draft ... but that does not change my perspective nor the official record on how to move forward from the joint meeting. Que sera sera. Cameron From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Aug 19 09:06:10 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1ED303A6857 for ; Thu, 19 Aug 2010 09:06:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.216, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, J_CHICKENPOX_13=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_25=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id m7v2hPYwgHgC for ; Thu, 19 Aug 2010 09:06:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E01A83A659B for ; Thu, 19 Aug 2010 09:06:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Om7c9-000AgI-2Q for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Thu, 19 Aug 2010 16:05:13 +0000 Received: from [130.76.96.56] (helo=stl-smtpout-01.boeing.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Om7c4-000Afi-5e; Thu, 19 Aug 2010 16:05:08 +0000 Received: from blv-av-01.boeing.com (blv-av-01.boeing.com [130.247.48.231]) by stl-smtpout-01.ns.cs.boeing.com (8.14.4/8.14.4/8.14.4/SMTPOUT) with ESMTP id o7JG4tHG013596 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 19 Aug 2010 11:04:56 -0500 (CDT) Received: from blv-av-01.boeing.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by blv-av-01.boeing.com (8.14.4/8.14.4/DOWNSTREAM_RELAY) with ESMTP id o7JG4tmI024360; Thu, 19 Aug 2010 09:04:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from XCH-NWHT-01.nw.nos.boeing.com (xch-nwht-01.nw.nos.boeing.com [130.247.70.222]) by blv-av-01.boeing.com (8.14.4/8.14.4/UPSTREAM_RELAY) with ESMTP id o7JG4smG024349 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=OK); Thu, 19 Aug 2010 09:04:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from XCH-NW-01V.nw.nos.boeing.com ([130.247.64.97]) by XCH-NWHT-01.nw.nos.boeing.com ([130.247.70.222]) with mapi; Thu, 19 Aug 2010 09:04:54 -0700 From: "Templin, Fred L" To: Randy Bush , "v6ops@ops.ietf.org" , "v4tov6transition@ietf.org" Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 09:04:54 -0700 Subject: RE: [v4tov6transition] draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC Thread-Topic: [v4tov6transition] draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC Thread-Index: Acs/Sq1RQzDebRexR0yje34ylS+qyAAa5AWw Message-ID: References: <018544C5-8D1E-412A-B6E4-F12623E66366@cisco.com><3CEE3B27-7926-4 8A6-A4A4-BEC1B5C9AD5E@cisco.com><4C6A14F2.9090107@mesh.ad.jp><364D16EC-7E20 -4B4B-A717-ADBED7552DA4@cisco.com><282BBE8A501E1F4DA9C775F964BB21FE3EADE555 4B@GRFMBX704BA020.griffon.local><55CF41D1D1344F3684F21C134E9A4B1D@china.hua wei.com><282BBE8A501E1F4DA9C775F964BB21FE3EADE5554F@GRFMBX704BA020.griffon.local> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] On Behal= f Of Randy Bush > Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2010 7:52 PM > To: v6ops@ops.ietf.org; v4tov6transition@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [v4tov6transition] draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WG= LC >=20 > > Thanks for your answer. I agree with you in principle, as a Service > > Provider we need some guidelines that help us with v4 to v6 > > co-existence an transition phases, and we really need them now, but we > > should try to avoid fragmenting and/or duplicating the work in > > different places/working groups. >=20 > >=20 > bingo! we already did ng6trans, i think it was called. it exploded in > a thousand pieces of mostly unnecessary inventions. but lots of folk > did get on author lists. This seems like it could be misinterpreted through exaggeration; for example, I certainly don't see thousands of pieces. It also seems to take a swipe at contributors who have helped shape the standards through consistent hard work over the course of many years. Fred fred.l.templin@boeing.com > i would also caution against exploring the space of how to make it so > that networks that have been sickly broken with things such as cgn can > claim to also handle ipv6. make your bed, lie in it. let cgn have fun > in behave or wherever. >=20 > and the working tunnel-v6-through-v4 tools we have either work through > the we-can-sell-monsterous-spof-to-carriers or they can hack on the > perpetuata-ipv4-and-rfc1918-forever gadgets until the v6 tunneling tools > do work. just do it under a rock where such things belong. >=20 > sez Fred Baker : >=20 > > That's actually incorrect; v6ops is about the operation of IPv6 network= s >=20 > yep. but not about how to pretend an rfc 1918 v4 network can be called > a v6 network. >=20 > >=20 > sez From: Cameron Byrne >=20 > > These sound more like training issues that are better handled by ops > > folks, and ops folks generally participate more in groups like NANOG > > and other *NOGs. There are also some very relevant IPv6 operations > > mailing lists that handle tactical issues. > > ... > > Also, to be frank, i do not believe the majority of the participants > > in the IETF even work or have current experience at network operators. >=20 > both ears and the tail! >=20 > sez Brian Carpenter: >=20 > >> Also, to be frank, i do not believe the majority of the participants > >> in the IETF even work or have current experience at network > >> operators. > > Then we'd better get contributions from the minority that do. >=20 > where was that box of q-tips? >=20 > sez Cameron Byrne : >=20 > > IMHO, traditional dual-stack is not viable for transition. There are > > not incentives for me to dual stack at home, work, or while mobile. >=20 > i agree that DS is not what you want off the backbone. v6 with nat64 > should be encouraged at home and at work. but i think you want the isps > to have dual stack backbones for a while. >=20 > randy From v6ops-archive@ietf.org Thu Aug 19 10:21:59 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF6763A67F1 for ; Thu, 19 Aug 2010 10:21:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char AE hex): Subject: v6ops-archive@ietf.org VIAGRA \256 Official Selle[...] X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -22.766 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-22.766 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, DRUGS_ERECTILE=1, DRUG_ED_CAPS=0.322, HELO_MISMATCH_NET=0.611, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_20=1.546, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_02=0.383, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_3=0.001, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, SUBJECT_NEEDS_ENCODING=0.001, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_SC_SURBL=10, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BamT11ruIrG7 for ; Thu, 19 Aug 2010 10:21:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sv.tolpa.net (sv.all.net.ua [195.128.230.155]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 9AC1C3A65A6 for ; Thu, 19 Aug 2010 10:21:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 2958 by uid 728); Thu, 19 Aug 2010 20:27:17 +0400 Message-Id: <20100819212221.2498.qmail@sv.tolpa.net> From: v6ops-archive@ietf.org To: v6ops-archive@ietf.org Subject: v6ops-archive@ietf.org VIAGRA ® Official Seller -44% MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Antivirus: avast! 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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Aug 19 12:03:42 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54AFB3A68A5 for ; Thu, 19 Aug 2010 12:03:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -108.808 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-108.808 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.913, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, J_CHICKENPOX_13=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, RDNS_NONE=0.1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tNuvQwbtf+mj for ; Thu, 19 Aug 2010 12:03:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9BCD33A6842 for ; Thu, 19 Aug 2010 12:03:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OmAJR-0009K5-BV for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Thu, 19 Aug 2010 18:58:05 +0000 Received: from [171.71.176.117] (helo=sj-iport-6.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OmAJO-0009Jp-6w for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 19 Aug 2010 18:58:02 +0000 Authentication-Results: sj-iport-6.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Av0EAJgbbUyrRN+K/2dsb2JhbACTBY1NcaQQm3CFNwSEM4U+ X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.56,235,1280707200"; d="scan'208";a="576000652" Received: from sj-core-4.cisco.com ([171.68.223.138]) by sj-iport-6.cisco.com with ESMTP; 19 Aug 2010 18:58:01 +0000 Received: from stealth-10-32-244-220.cisco.com (stealth-10-32-244-220.cisco.com [10.32.244.220]) by sj-core-4.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o7JIvrLb020964 for ; Thu, 19 Aug 2010 18:57:55 GMT Received: from [127.0.0.1] by stealth-10-32-244-220.cisco.com (PGP Universal service); Thu, 19 Aug 2010 11:58:01 -0700 X-PGP-Universal: processed; by stealth-10-32-244-220.cisco.com on Thu, 19 Aug 2010 11:58:01 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1081) Subject: Re: draft-nakibly-v6ops-tunnel-loops-03 From: Fred Baker In-Reply-To: <349260.75069.qm@web45512.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 11:57:46 -0700 Message-Id: <1FFF18F2-ABCE-4B37-B3DC-8B265087A3AB@cisco.com> References: <388238.39853.qm@web45507.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <85A3436D-2E48-4275-9378-FBCBBA409883@cisco.com> <349260.75069.qm@web45512.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> To: IPv6 v6ops X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1081) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: Let me repeat a question I asked before. Gaki reminds me that we = discussed, in June, adoption of his document as a WG draft. It escaped = my mind with the hubbub of the IETF meeting. There were several comments = that it should be adopted as a working group draft. Are there at this = time any objections? Barring any, I'll have him re-post as a working = group draft. On Aug 19, 2010, at 11:46 AM, Gabi Nakibly wrote: > Hi Fred, >=20 > Thanks for your input. >=20 > Regarding the new revision of the draft, I would like to remind you = that a few=20 > weeks ago I have requested you and the WG to adopt the draft as a WG = item. It=20 > has received positive reviews from Mark Townsley and Brian Carpenter. = Following=20 > the feedback we revised the draft - we removed a mitigation measure = and added a=20 > new Recommendations section that clarifies which measures should be = exercised=20 > under various conditions. The reviewers support adopting the draft = once their=20 > comments are addressed. >=20 > Regarding the purpose of the draft, I definitely agree with you that = the end=20 > game is native IPv6. But as Brian commented, tunnels will be around = for a while,=20 >=20 > weather we like it or not. So I think it would be prudent to have an=20= > informational RFC that at least informs the community on the loop = problem and to=20 >=20 > advice on measures to mitigate it (true - these are not perfect = measures, but=20 > they do the job). Otherwise operators might jeopardize their networks = when=20 > deploying the tunnels. I agree that a document is valuable only if it = helps=20 > people to deploy IPv6. But I would add - deploy securely (I note item = #2 of the=20 > v6ops charter). We certainly do not want people to suspect that IPv6 = puts their=20 > networks at risk. I believe that the draft helps people deploy IPv6 = more=20 > securely.=20 >=20 >=20 > I would like to note that 6rd is also vulnerable to the attack. = Following=20 > discussions with Remi on the list a few months back, proper mitigation = measures=20 > were devised for 6rd as documented in the Security Considerations of = RFC 5969. I=20 >=20 > think that appropriate mitigation measures for other tunnels should be = also=20 > devised. >=20 > As I understand, the ball is in your court. I truly hope that you = decide on the=20 > adoption of the draft as a WG item. >=20 > Thanks, > Gabi >=20 > ----- Original Message ---- >> From: Fred Baker >> To: Gabi Nakibly >> Sent: Wed, August 18, 2010 10:20:06 PM >> Subject: Re: draft-nakibly-v6ops-tunnel-loops-03 >>=20 >> Thanks. >>=20 >> In the note I just sent to v6ops, I noted that you didn't present at = IETF 78=20 >> and that there had not been significant working group discussion on = this on the=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >> list, and suspected that you were done with it. >>=20 >> = http://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-nakibly-v6ops-tunnel-loops-03.t= xt=20 >> shows some changes, mostly minor editing and a rework of section 3.3 = into=20 >> section 4. >>=20 >> I'll give you my personal bias, just so that I'm perfectly = transparent. I think=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> this document and Suresh's document highlight a very basic concern, = which is=20 >> that IPv6 routing is in these cases completely disjoint from IPv4 = routing, and=20 >> they are opaque to each other, but they are not independent. If IPv6 = routing is=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >> going to depend on IPv4 routing, something true of all IPv6/IPv4 = solutions, it=20 >> would be much nicer if they were also linked, as I would argue is the = case with=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >> 6rd. I don't think you're going to fix the issues until they are. >>=20 >> I also think that the end game is not to perfect the coexistence = mechanisms,=20 >> but to make the transition. Anything that keeps people busy doing = something=20 >> besides native IPv6 deployment is only valuable if it helps them to = deploy.=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> In any event, thanks for reposting, and let's discuss it on the list. >>=20 >> On Aug 18, 2010, at 12:00 PM, Gabi Nakibly wrote: >>=20 >>> A new version of draft-nakibly-v6ops-tunnel-loops has been posted. >>> The new version follows the comments given on the list. >>> The major change is the addition of a Recommendation section=20 >>> that recommends preferred mitigation measures under different = conditions. >>>=20 >>> Gabi >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> ----- Forwarded Message ---- >>>> From: IETF I-D Submission Tool >>>> To: gnakibly@yahoo.com >>>> Cc: fltemplin@acm.org >>>> Sent: Wed, August 18, 2010 9:46:46 PM >>>> Subject: New Version Notification for = draft-nakibly-v6ops-tunnel-loops-03 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> A new version of I-D, draft-nakibly-v6ops-tunnel-loops-03.txt has = been=20 >>>> successfully submitted by Gabi Nakibly and posted to the IETF = repository. >>>>=20 >>>> Filename: draft-nakibly-v6ops-tunnel-loops >>>> Revision: 03 >>>> Title: Routing Loop Attack using IPv6 Automatic Tunnels: = Problem=20 >>>> Statement and Proposed Mitigations >>>> Creation_date: 2010-08-18 >>>> WG ID: Independent Submission >>>> Number_of_pages: 11 >>>>=20 >>>> Abstract: >>>> This document is concerned with security vulnerabilities in = IPv6-in- >>>> IPv4 automatic tunnels. These vulnerabilities allow an attacker to >>>> take advantage of inconsistencies between a tunnel's overlay IPv6 >>>> routing state and the native IPv6 routing state. The attack forms = a >>>> routing loop which can be abused as a vehicle for traffic >>>> amplification to facilitate DoS attacks. The first aim of this >>>> document is to inform on this attack and its root causes. The = second >>>> aim is to present some possible mitigation measures. >>>> = =20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >>>> =20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> The IETF Secretariat. >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 From uxoewuqu1631@comcast.net Thu Aug 19 13:56:10 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 442E73A6A35 for ; Thu, 19 Aug 2010 13:56:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -35.291 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-35.291 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, DATE_IN_PAST_06_12=1.069, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_SBL=20, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id T6EAnDhBjkgZ for ; Thu, 19 Aug 2010 13:56:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from comcast.net (c-98-242-195-165.hsd1.fl.comcast.net [98.242.195.165]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 617BD3A6987 for ; Thu, 19 Aug 2010 13:56:09 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 04:56:40 -0700 To: v6ops-archive@ietf.org From: Reply-To: Subject: Take her in the ass MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-Id: <20100819205609.617BD3A6987@core3.amsl.com> If you ever dreamed of camera-bedroom action, you definitely need this. http://www.poemhand.ru/ From v6ops-archive@ietf.org Fri Aug 20 01:12:25 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1DAB3A68E8 for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 01:12:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char AE hex): Subject: v6ops-archive@ietf.org VIAGRA \256 Official Selle[...] X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -25.337 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-25.337 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, DRUGS_ERECTILE=1, DRUG_ED_CAPS=0.322, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_20=1.546, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_02=0.383, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_3=0.001, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, SUBJECT_NEEDS_ENCODING=0.001, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_SC_SURBL=10, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fx-SmxKpGhDn for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 01:12:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from proxy.im.vyshegrad.net (conference.im.vyshegrad.net [91.214.18.6]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id EFBA33A68BB for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 01:12:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 2818 by uid 249); Fri, 20 Aug 2010 11:41:10 +0400 Message-Id: <20100820111249.2978.qmail@proxy.im.vyshegrad.net> From: v6ops-archive@ietf.org To: v6ops-archive@ietf.org Subject: v6ops-archive@ietf.org VIAGRA ® Official Seller -19% MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 01:12:17 -0700 (PDT)
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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Aug 20 06:15:59 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 697F83A6768 for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 06:15:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.335 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.335 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.264, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RBwvgVh9usgL for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 06:15:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74F393A6808 for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 06:15:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OmRKU-000Awu-TW for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 13:08:18 +0000 Received: from [2001:14b8:400::130] (helo=p130.piuha.net) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OmRKR-000AwM-SG for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 13:08:16 +0000 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by p130.piuha.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 459922CCCF; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 16:08:14 +0300 (EEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at piuha.net Received: from p130.piuha.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (p130.piuha.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Y0LyhcQvNbla; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 16:08:13 +0300 (EEST) Received: from [IPv6:::1] (unknown [IPv6:2001:14b8:400::130]) by p130.piuha.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D79E2CC9A; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 16:08:11 +0300 (EEST) Message-ID: <4C6E7BF3.70208@piuha.net> Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 08:58:27 -0400 From: Jari Arkko User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.24 (X11/20100411) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brian E Carpenter CC: Fred Baker , v6ops@ops.ietf.org, kurtis@kurtis.pp.se, rbonica@juniper.net Subject: Re: draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC References: <018544C5-8D1E-412A-B6E4-F12623E66366@cisco.com> <4C6C7118.1060600@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <4C6C7118.1060600@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: Brian, > 4.3. IPv6-Only Core Network > > An emerging deployment model uses IPv6 as the dominant protocol > > I don't think we should be *recommending* this choice, or > any other choice, but the word "emerging" makes it sound > risky. Maybe we could just say "Another depolyment model..." > We can certainly say that. (But I do think that the four models in the document are things that we can recommend.) Jari From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Aug 20 06:16:05 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3F0F3A6808 for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 06:16:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.037 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.037 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.038, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_13=0.6, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Az60garv6Usr for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 06:16:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CEC9C3A6768 for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 06:16:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OmRKb-000Axp-PU for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 13:08:25 +0000 Received: from [2001:14b8:400::130] (helo=p130.piuha.net) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OmRKW-000Ax5-Ia for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 13:08:21 +0000 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by p130.piuha.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 954D52CCCF; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 16:08:19 +0300 (EEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at piuha.net Received: from p130.piuha.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (p130.piuha.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lOXTmI+sJLaQ; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 16:08:19 +0300 (EEST) Received: from [IPv6:::1] (unknown [IPv6:2001:14b8:400::130]) by p130.piuha.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 792FA2CC9A; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 16:08:16 +0300 (EEST) Message-ID: <4C6E7DD3.70308@piuha.net> Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 09:06:27 -0400 From: Jari Arkko User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.24 (X11/20100411) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brian E Carpenter CC: "Hemant Singh (shemant)" , Tina TSOU , yiu_lee@cable.comcast.com, "Fred Baker (fred)" , Maglione Roberta , v6ops@ops.ietf.org, v4tov6transition@ietf.org Subject: Re: [v4tov6transition] draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC References: <018544C5-8D1E-412A-B6E4-F12623E66366@cisco.com> <3CEE3B27-7926-48A6-A4A4-BEC1B5C9AD5E@cisco.com> <4C6A14F2.9090107@mesh.ad.jp> <364D16EC-7E20-4B4B-A717-ADBED7552DA4@cisco.com> <282BBE8A501E1F4DA9C775F964BB21FE3EADE5554B@GRFMBX704BA020.griffon.local> <55CF41D1D1344F3684F21C134E9A4B1D@china.huawei.com> <4C6C6D85.30507@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <4C6C6D85.30507@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: Brian, Fred, et al, I also think that there is plenty of work left to do in terms of providing guidance to network operators on how they should deploy IPv6. (I'm not saying that we should add all of it to draft-arkko, though :-) I very much agree with Brian that we need to have well organized answers for all the operational guidance issues. And we do not necessarily have all well organized yet. One of the questions coming from this thread appears to be where to go for advice when you are starting from ground up. But I do think that we have to take time to figure out exactly what advice we can already point to, what new work may be needed on top of that, and where that new work will happen and by whom. Its not even always clear that the IETF is the best place for all work in this space; the operational forums, various training institutions, etc. will also play a role. But one idea might be to reserve some time in the next V6OPS session (perhaps a third slot) for a discussion of this topic: what operational guidance do we have and what is missing? Sort of a high-level review of the situation as opposed to the relatively small details that we often spend most of our time on. Jari From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Aug 20 07:00:05 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 193293A67B4 for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 07:00:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.85 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.85 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.355, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0UosolTPjMXp for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 07:00:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 861693A6768 for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 07:00:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OmS5V-000ITD-Bi for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 13:56:53 +0000 Received: from [209.85.213.52] (helo=mail-yw0-f52.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OmS5R-000ISS-AX for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 13:56:49 +0000 Received: by ywl5 with SMTP id 5so1888545ywl.11 for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 06:56:48 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:received:in-reply-to :references:date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=0DgWoVMYs6YFMeRlhsTN+N6QFx8A4veWTAkFsTibTRw=; b=FKX1VJHupBQiG75kJZu+pSowqvWvPTIptg27MOYO+8RY0tmG1kgDI2mTaoxpxZdPMd kjHbP8LUpdHaD3KnrdWgRdwa4gYg9/SmT8lJAtQpOWsC2OKG220nlsMBHZpKdeHLkMFB 1sVtyIM4xqHo5qMgwQFUHl5py7tcVw7+KH9b4= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=nDB/+4pL9vDL4g8++8K4bbtwnPFv5IM6wZ/FBrCE4NvJGjzKSRB3j/Wxnk01blqYub 5Ee61bElnb9rzeSjODmEjzVck3Hx6rtAKVDIHBXbPMvvqwP/DpMSqMEvkn/+ZcJXAUNd eacETiZlH32HztcZbxT0u44Wur8tVlcW+fgXQ= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.151.69.21 with SMTP id w21mr1672902ybk.428.1282312608606; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 06:56:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.12.2 with HTTP; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 06:56:48 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <018544C5-8D1E-412A-B6E4-F12623E66366@cisco.com> References: <018544C5-8D1E-412A-B6E4-F12623E66366@cisco.com> Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 06:56:48 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC From: Cameron Byrne To: Fred Baker Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org, kurtis@kurtis.pp.se, rbonica@juniper.net Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: On Sun, Aug 15, 2010 at 11:00 AM, Fred Baker wrote: > This is to initiate a two week working group last call > of=A0draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines. Please read it now. If you f= ind > nits (spelling errors, minor suggested wording changes, etc), comment to = the > authors; if you find greater issues, such as disagreeing with a statement= or > finding additional issues that need to be addressed, please post your > comments to the list. > We are looking specifically for comments on the importance of the documen= t > as well as its content. If you have read the document and believe it to b= e > of operational utility, that is also an important comment to make. My feed back is this document, as it stands, is not an operational utility since I do not believe it helps people in operating an access network (most networks have end nodes on them, backbone ISPs know what to do). Do we need yet another anthology of IPv6 tools? I do not think there is good reason that this document should move forward since it does not add anything new or, IMHO, good advice to people with numbering problems. Here are my concerns: 1. The only reason people want to deploy IPv6 is because of IPv4 exhaust, right? Yet this document recommends dual-stack as the right approach forward. The IETF should know that DS does not solve a numbering problem and there is no incentive for folks to go dual stack. DS is pure altruism to make IPv6 easier to the stragglers and free-riders. But, even technology forward companies like Cisco and Ericsson do not have dual stack websites today, 10+ years after the IETF told everyone they should go DS. So once again, from on high, "do as I say, not as i do". 2. If this document is to take a realist view and assert the IETF position as a though leader and guide to the future, it should paint the real picture of IPv4 exhaust and provide real solutions to what happens when there is no more IPv4 to be had. It should also, for historical perspective, explain why DS did not work so people can avoid going down this path.... or at the least, know that going DS is not the end-state where we don't have to worry about IPv4 any more .... DS is just a multi-protocol network that is more expensive and more complicated. In some corners of the world, when i tell people DS does not solve the number problem, it is the first time they have looked at DS with a critical eye. 3.. Fred made it clear that deployment is turning something on. Transition is turning something off. This document is called transition but it does not recommend or articulate how to turn IPv4 off in any detail. 4. Perhaps it would be helpful to specify a scope for this document? Enterprise networks? Access networks? Transit ISPs? Regards, Cameron ps. Just for grins, i tried the once announced http://www.ipv6.cisco.com/ and it works! But, alas, it is IPv6-only not dual stack! From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Aug 20 08:00:22 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 279803A6AAA for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 08:00:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.765 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.765 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.870, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, J_CHICKENPOX_13=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ut+o01IICciQ for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 08:00:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8D663A6AA5 for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 08:00:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OmT1U-00027R-Ee for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 14:56:48 +0000 Received: from [130.76.64.48] (helo=slb-smtpout-01.boeing.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OmT1R-00026E-16 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 14:56:45 +0000 Received: from blv-av-01.boeing.com (blv-av-01.boeing.com [130.247.48.231]) by slb-smtpout-01.ns.cs.boeing.com (8.14.4/8.14.4/8.14.4/SMTPOUT) with ESMTP id o7KEudUa019114 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 20 Aug 2010 07:56:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from blv-av-01.boeing.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by blv-av-01.boeing.com (8.14.4/8.14.4/DOWNSTREAM_RELAY) with ESMTP id o7KEudRH023795; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 07:56:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from XCH-NWHT-08.nw.nos.boeing.com (xch-nwht-08.nw.nos.boeing.com [130.247.25.112]) by blv-av-01.boeing.com (8.14.4/8.14.4/UPSTREAM_RELAY) with ESMTP id o7KEuccV023788 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=OK); Fri, 20 Aug 2010 07:56:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from XCH-NW-01V.nw.nos.boeing.com ([130.247.64.97]) by XCH-NWHT-08.nw.nos.boeing.com ([130.247.25.112]) with mapi; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 07:56:38 -0700 From: "Templin, Fred L" To: Fred Baker , IPv6 v6ops Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 07:56:37 -0700 Subject: RE: draft-nakibly-v6ops-tunnel-loops-03 Thread-Topic: draft-nakibly-v6ops-tunnel-loops-03 Thread-Index: Acs/0o9ExN2zPfa1Syu1TRpI/RfteAApAd6g Message-ID: References: <388238.39853.qm@web45507.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <85A3436D-2E48-4275-9378-FBCBBA409883@cisco.com> <349260.75069.qm@web45512.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <1FFF18F2-ABCE-4B37-B3DC-8B265087A3AB@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <1FFF18F2-ABCE-4B37-B3DC-8B265087A3AB@cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: Hi Fred, > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] On Behal= f Of Fred Baker > Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2010 11:58 AM > To: IPv6 v6ops > Subject: Re: draft-nakibly-v6ops-tunnel-loops-03 >=20 > Let me repeat a question I asked before. Gaki reminds me that we discusse= d, in June, adoption of his > document as a WG draft. It escaped my mind with the hubbub of the IETF me= eting. There were several > comments that it should be adopted as a working group draft. Are there at= this time any objections? > Barring any, I'll have him re-post as a working group draft. I have no objections to posting as a wg draft. You did not ask for feedback on the (off-list?) exchange below, but regarding perfecting coexistence mechanisms I believe that the IRON proposal is pretty close to having done that. IMHO, it is worthy of a closer look. Finally, please note that the correct spelling of my colleague's name is "G-a-b-i" - an honorable man by my reckoning. Thanks - Fred fred.l.templin@boeing.com > On Aug 19, 2010, at 11:46 AM, Gabi Nakibly wrote: >=20 > > Hi Fred, > > > > Thanks for your input. > > > > Regarding the new revision of the draft, I would like to remind you tha= t a few > > weeks ago I have requested you and the WG to adopt the draft as a WG it= em. It > > has received positive reviews from Mark Townsley and Brian Carpenter. F= ollowing > > the feedback we revised the draft - we removed a mitigation measure and= added a > > new Recommendations section that clarifies which measures should be exe= rcised > > under various conditions. The reviewers support adopting the draft once= their > > comments are addressed. > > > > Regarding the purpose of the draft, I definitely agree with you that th= e end > > game is native IPv6. But as Brian commented, tunnels will be around for= a while, > > > > weather we like it or not. So I think it would be prudent to have an > > informational RFC that at least informs the community on the loop probl= em and to > > > > advice on measures to mitigate it (true - these are not perfect measure= s, but > > they do the job). Otherwise operators might jeopardize their networks w= hen > > deploying the tunnels. I agree that a document is valuable only if it h= elps > > people to deploy IPv6. But I would add - deploy securely (I note item #= 2 of the > > v6ops charter). We certainly do not want people to suspect that IPv6 pu= ts their > > networks at risk. I believe that the draft helps people deploy IPv6 mor= e > > securely. > > > > > > I would like to note that 6rd is also vulnerable to the attack. Followi= ng > > discussions with Remi on the list a few months back, proper mitigation = measures > > were devised for 6rd as documented in the Security Considerations of RF= C 5969. I > > > > think that appropriate mitigation measures for other tunnels should be = also > > devised. > > > > As I understand, the ball is in your court. I truly hope that you decid= e on the > > adoption of the draft as a WG item. > > > > Thanks, > > Gabi > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > >> From: Fred Baker > >> To: Gabi Nakibly > >> Sent: Wed, August 18, 2010 10:20:06 PM > >> Subject: Re: draft-nakibly-v6ops-tunnel-loops-03 > >> > >> Thanks. > >> > >> In the note I just sent to v6ops, I noted that you didn't present at I= ETF 78 > >> and that there had not been significant working group discussion on th= is on the > > > > > > > > > > > >> list, and suspected that you were done with it. > >> > >> http://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-nakibly-v6ops-tunnel-loops-= 03.txt > >> shows some changes, mostly minor editing and a rework of section 3.3 i= nto > >> section 4. > >> > >> I'll give you my personal bias, just so that I'm perfectly transparent= . I think > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> this document and Suresh's document highlight a very basic concern, wh= ich is > >> that IPv6 routing is in these cases completely disjoint from IPv4 rout= ing, and > >> they are opaque to each other, but they are not independent. If IPv6 r= outing is > > > > > > > > > > > >> going to depend on IPv4 routing, something true of all IPv6/IPv4 solut= ions, it > >> would be much nicer if they were also linked, as I would argue is the = case with > > > > > > > > > > > >> 6rd. I don't think you're going to fix the issues until they are. > >> > >> I also think that the end game is not to perfect the coexistence mecha= nisms, > >> but to make the transition. Anything that keeps people busy doing some= thing > >> besides native IPv6 deployment is only valuable if it helps them to de= ploy. > >> > >> > >> In any event, thanks for reposting, and let's discuss it on the list. > >> > >> On Aug 18, 2010, at 12:00 PM, Gabi Nakibly wrote: > >> > >>> A new version of draft-nakibly-v6ops-tunnel-loops has been posted. > >>> The new version follows the comments given on the list. > >>> The major change is the addition of a Recommendation section > >>> that recommends preferred mitigation measures under different conditi= ons. > >>> > >>> Gabi > >>> > >>> > >>> ----- Forwarded Message ---- > >>>> From: IETF I-D Submission Tool > >>>> To: gnakibly@yahoo.com > >>>> Cc: fltemplin@acm.org > >>>> Sent: Wed, August 18, 2010 9:46:46 PM > >>>> Subject: New Version Notification for draft-nakibly-v6ops-tunnel-loo= ps-03 > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> A new version of I-D, draft-nakibly-v6ops-tunnel-loops-03.txt has be= en > >>>> successfully submitted by Gabi Nakibly and posted to the IETF reposi= tory. > >>>> > >>>> Filename: draft-nakibly-v6ops-tunnel-loops > >>>> Revision: 03 > >>>> Title: Routing Loop Attack using IPv6 Automatic Tunnels: Prob= lem > >>>> Statement and Proposed Mitigations > >>>> Creation_date: 2010-08-18 > >>>> WG ID: Independent Submission > >>>> Number_of_pages: 11 > >>>> > >>>> Abstract: > >>>> This document is concerned with security vulnerabilities in IPv6-in- > >>>> IPv4 automatic tunnels. These vulnerabilities allow an attacker to > >>>> take advantage of inconsistencies between a tunnel's overlay IPv6 > >>>> routing state and the native IPv6 routing state. The attack forms a > >>>> routing loop which can be abused as a vehicle for traffic > >>>> amplification to facilitate DoS attacks. The first aim of this > >>>> document is to inform on this attack and its root causes. The secon= d > >>>> aim is to present some possible mitigation measures. > >>>> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> The IETF Secretariat. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > >=20 From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Aug 20 09:12:57 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 701153A6AA1 for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 09:12:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.822 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.822 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.327, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id E2sBMoyc-CM9 for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 09:12:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C54413A69AD for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 09:12:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OmU9B-000EGT-C0 for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 16:08:49 +0000 Received: from [209.85.213.180] (helo=mail-yx0-f180.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OmU98-000EG3-Cm for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 16:08:46 +0000 Received: by yxi11 with SMTP id 11so1924505yxi.11 for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 09:08:45 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:received:in-reply-to :references:date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=+HE+GPrKOqF/0RNX5IcpIAuL+pCIuZUYkyNBWwJEYYE=; b=kIw92Y61/3puDrU8JG9QuecYFEalWoYPsKp96Bb3EatG4FR5oyhUrdhZr18J3Edae/ j8TofzPuQNhhouJwhvvut3KUiCR+tdKfy5ppr25vp/4DUOGcTf+b9qeR6CNFq/jOChfQ v5N+FwjrxxC2AgY5cDORu18EFaXjKQg6ioPTk= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=U1xYxIOYxDjzhaMm6VeO8jD9lLCK1/wf8VfYREMGkH5nqTIe03q7ndQTjG+cxc4Iob bfIUSHB/U0V3MXSBhY8f0G4RfvAC7dzuNVaRRsYiLB+lBSaigYkcp6TXbrnwSFkEqxlB EKpyJa7nxyVsmjk9xEdGEESSdA1o5Y/Brpeok= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.151.69.21 with SMTP id w21mr1880402ybk.428.1282320525607; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 09:08:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.12.2 with HTTP; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 09:08:45 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <018544C5-8D1E-412A-B6E4-F12623E66366@cisco.com> Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 09:08:45 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC From: Cameron Byrne To: Fred Baker Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org, kurtis@kurtis.pp.se, rbonica@juniper.net Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 6:56 AM, Cameron Byrne wrote: > On Sun, Aug 15, 2010 at 11:00 AM, Fred Baker wrote: >> This is to initiate a two week working group last call >> of=A0draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines. Please read it now. If you = find >> nits (spelling errors, minor suggested wording changes, etc), comment to= the >> authors; if you find greater issues, such as disagreeing with a statemen= t or >> finding additional issues that need to be addressed, please post your >> comments to the list. >> We are looking specifically for comments on the importance of the docume= nt >> as well as its content. If you have read the document and believe it to = be >> of operational utility, that is also an important comment to make. > > My feed back is this document, as it stands, =A0is not an operational > utility since I do not believe it helps people in operating an access > network (most networks have end nodes on them, backbone ISPs know what > to do). =A0Do we need yet another anthology of IPv6 tools? =A0I do not > think there is good reason that this document should move forward > since it does not add anything new or, IMHO, good advice to people > with numbering problems. > > Here are my concerns: > > 1. =A0The only reason people want to deploy IPv6 is because of IPv4 > exhaust, right? =A0 Yet this document =A0recommends dual-stack as the > right approach forward. =A0The IETF should know that DS does not solve a > numbering problem and there is no incentive for folks to go dual > stack. DS is pure altruism to make IPv6 easier to the stragglers and > free-riders. =A0But, even technology forward companies like Cisco and > Ericsson do not have dual stack websites today, 10+ years after the > IETF told everyone they should go DS. =A0So once again, from on high, > "do as I say, not as i do". > > 2. =A0If this document is to take a realist view and assert the IETF > position as a though leader and guide to the future, it should paint > the real picture of IPv4 exhaust and provide real solutions to what > happens when there is no more IPv4 to be had. =A0It should also, for > historical perspective, explain why DS did not work so people can > avoid going down this path.... or at the least, know that going DS is > not the end-state where we don't have to worry about IPv4 any more > .... DS is just a multi-protocol network that is more expensive and > more complicated. =A0In some corners of the world, when i tell people DS > does not solve the number problem, it is the first time they have > looked at DS with a critical eye. > > 3.. =A0Fred made it clear that deployment is turning something on. > Transition is turning something off. =A0This document is called > transition but it does not recommend or articulate how to turn IPv4 > off in any detail. > > 4. =A0Perhaps it would be helpful to specify a scope for this document? > Enterprise networks? =A0Access networks? =A0Transit ISPs? > > Regards, > > Cameron > > ps. =A0Just for grins, i tried the once announced > http://www.ipv6.cisco.com/ and it works! =A0But, alas, it is IPv6-only > not dual stack! > Just a few more comments 1. Please reconsider explicitly recommending dual stack. Perhaps put it some verbiage about "no pain, no gain" 2. Revise statement about literals. The current unqualified and unbounded statement without context gives the wrong impression. I believe it is best not to state: " However, some applications - notably http, ftp, SIP, and others - carry IP addresses in the application layer and expect them to be useful to their peers, which require care in handling. " it may be more accurate to state that: " Communications involving IPv4 referral, in particular IPv4-literals within certain protocols and formats such at HTML, will fail when passed to IPv6-only hosts since the host does not have an IPv4 address to source the IPv4 communications or an IPv4 route. Current measurement for HTTP on the public internet show that literals break 0.2% of the world wide web. " 3. Squarely face the issue of a fragmented internet where there is ipv6.google.com, ipv6.t-mobile.com, www.ipv6.cisco.com www.v6.facebook.com as well as aaaa whitelist that Yahoo and Google are pushing. I believe the reality of these sites and the DNS whitelist are more votes against DS. From v6ops-archive@ietf.org Fri Aug 20 10:48:36 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A7A13A6B16 for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 10:48:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Quarantine-ID: <2nvZF3zANMmn> X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char AE hex): From: USA VIAGRA \256 Official ; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 10:48:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 201-43-20-155.dsl.telesp.net.br (201-43-20-155.dsl.telesp.net.br [201.43.20.155]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id A2BDC3A6B11 for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 10:48:34 -0700 (PDT) From: USA VIAGRA ® Official To: v6ops-archive@ietf.org Subject: Dear v6ops-archive@ietf.org 61% 0FF on Pfizer!!! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20100820174834.A2BDC3A6B11@core3.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 10:48:34 -0700 (PDT) Dear v6ops-archive@ietf.org! Get ready to make her happy. Discount price store: ID28688 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gtsdfszrvcen/message We do guarantee high-quality medications, instant worldwide delivery and friendly support. © 2001-2010 Pfizer Inc. All rights reserved. From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Aug 20 11:00:19 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60F563A69A2 for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 11:00:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -109.131 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-109.131 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.636, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, RDNS_NONE=0.1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JXTdTd6CGUBT for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 11:00:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CA823A6B0E for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 11:00:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OmVoO-0004wR-WC for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 17:55:29 +0000 Received: from [171.68.10.86] (helo=sj-iport-4.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OmVoK-0004vv-NV for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 17:55:24 +0000 Authentication-Results: sj-iport-4.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AvsEAI9ebkyrR7Hu/2dsb2JhbACgPXGgS5tyhTcEhDSFPw X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.56,240,1280707200"; d="scan'208";a="174747386" Received: from sj-core-5.cisco.com ([171.71.177.238]) by sj-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP; 20 Aug 2010 17:55:23 +0000 Received: from stealth-10-32-244-218.cisco.com (stealth-10-32-244-218.cisco.com [10.32.244.218]) by sj-core-5.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o7KHtEFZ016794; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 17:55:16 GMT Received: from [127.0.0.1] by stealth-10-32-244-218.cisco.com (PGP Universal service); Fri, 20 Aug 2010 10:55:22 -0700 X-PGP-Universal: processed; by stealth-10-32-244-218.cisco.com on Fri, 20 Aug 2010 10:55:22 -0700 Subject: Re: draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1081) From: Fred Baker In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 10:55:07 -0700 Cc: IPv6 v6ops , Kurt Erik Lindqvist , Ron Bonica , v4tov6transition@ietf.org Message-Id: <1E46BEA0-85C4-44B0-B76B-29CBB7515ACF@cisco.com> References: <018544C5-8D1E-412A-B6E4-F12623E66366@cisco.com> To: Cameron Byrne X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1081) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: I'd appreciate remarks on the proposed update at ftp://ftpeng.cisco.com/fred/v6ops/transition-diffs.html ftp://ftpeng.cisco.com/fred/v6ops/transition-guideline.txt ftp://ftpeng.cisco.com/fred/v6ops/transition-guideline.xml If you believe that I have addressed your concerns regarding 4.4 and = timing, I'll post that as an update-in-WGLC. I'll comment on your comments inline. On Aug 20, 2010, at 9:08 AM, Cameron Byrne wrote: > On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 6:56 AM, Cameron Byrne = wrote: >> On Sun, Aug 15, 2010 at 11:00 AM, Fred Baker wrote: >>> This is to initiate a two week working group last call >>> of draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines. Please read it now. If = you find >>> nits (spelling errors, minor suggested wording changes, etc), = comment to the >>> authors; if you find greater issues, such as disagreeing with a = statement or >>> finding additional issues that need to be addressed, please post = your >>> comments to the list. >>> We are looking specifically for comments on the importance of the = document >>> as well as its content. If you have read the document and believe it = to be >>> of operational utility, that is also an important comment to make. >>=20 >> My feed back is this document, as it stands, is not an operational >> utility since I do not believe it helps people in operating an access >> network (most networks have end nodes on them, backbone ISPs know = what >> to do). Do we need yet another anthology of IPv6 tools? I do not >> think there is good reason that this document should move forward >> since it does not add anything new or, IMHO, good advice to people >> with numbering problems. >>=20 You have seen, in the past few days, comments cross-posted to = v4tov6transition@ietf.org; I believe that you are also on that list. = This is a set of service providers that are specifically asking the IETF = for guidance on how to go about IPv6 deployment and eventual transition. = Jari originated this document because he is asked the question, and many = of us are. >> Here are my concerns: >>=20 >> 1. The only reason people want to deploy IPv6 is because of IPv4 >> exhaust, right? Yet this document recommends dual-stack as the >> right approach forward. May I invite you to look at RFC 4192? You will recall that it was = intended to be the first draft of an operational renumbering plan; if = someone wants to renumber their network or a part of it, they can look = at this for a general structure. I would expect them to draft what I = will call a "second draft", that follows the guidelines, addresses the = issues raised, and is tailored to their network and its needs. "Dual Stack" is a renumbering plan, if you will. Instead of renumbering = an IPv6 network, it renumbers an IPv4 network as an an IPv6 network. RFC = 4192 explicitly addresses business continuity on the existing numbering = plane (IPv4 in this case) during deployment, and discusses how one tells = whether and when one is ready to shift to the new numbering plan (IPv6 = in this case), and ultimately how to turn down the old numbering plan. I find your remark here confusing. Why would one disrupt one's own = business for a network reason? Why would one not seek to continue their = business operations during the change? Help me out here. >> The IETF should know that DS does not solve a >> numbering problem and there is no incentive for folks to go dual >> stack. DS is pure altruism to make IPv6 easier to the stragglers and >> free-riders. But, even technology forward companies like Cisco and >> Ericsson do not have dual stack websites today, 10+ years after the >> IETF told everyone they should go DS. So once again, from on high, >> "do as I say, not as i do". >>=20 Actually, we do have some help for IPv4 numbering issues; the = translation technology that we have developed in behave and comment on = in 4.4 enables a network to carefully husband its IPv4 address space by = allocating it (stateless translation) as IPv4-accessible IPv4-embedded = IPv6 addresses applied to servers, and deploy ipv6-only clients - = historically 40:1 over servers - that can access IPv4 servers using a = translation technology not so very different from the IPv4/IPv4 NAT in = current wide use. During the IPv6 deployment, there remains a very real = question of business continuity; there will be no flag day, which means = that there will for a period of time be systems that either have not got = IPv4 enabled or whose networks are not IPv6-clean end to end, and this = kind of thing can help. >> 2. If this document is to take a realist view and assert the IETF >> position as a though leader and guide to the future, it should paint >> the real picture of IPv4 exhaust and provide real solutions to what >> happens when there is no more IPv4 to be had. It should also, for >> historical perspective, explain why DS did not work so people can >> avoid going down this path.... or at the least, know that going DS is >> not the end-state where we don't have to worry about IPv4 any more >> .... DS is just a multi-protocol network that is more expensive and >> more complicated. In some corners of the world, when i tell people = DS >> does not solve the number problem, it is the first time they have >> looked at DS with a critical eye. >>=20 Which is to say that you have convinced them that they actually have to = turn on IPv6, and good for you. Understand that dual stack has not = failed for anyone that has tried it. What has failed is "not turning on = IPv6". >> 3.. Fred made it clear that deployment is turning something on. >> Transition is turning something off. This document is called >> transition but it does not recommend or articulate how to turn IPv4 >> off in any detail. >>=20 I believe that you are referring to the title of the document. the title = is "Guidelines for Using IPv6 Transition Mechanisms during IPv6 = Deployment", not "how to carry out an IPv4 to IPv6 transition". I = believe that RFC 5211 gives some thoughts about the latter. >> 4. Perhaps it would be helpful to specify a scope for this document? >> Enterprise networks? Access networks? Transit ISPs? >>=20 It might be, but here I would be interested in comments from people in = those various networks. In private email, you castigated me for saying anything on IPv6 = deployment at all, as in your words "Cisco is not deploying IPv6". I'll = repeat for the record the comment I sent in private email. /***** * comment from private email *****/ As you may be aware, Cisco is in the process of internal deployment; = IPv6 is deployed in parts of the company, and as I type I am on a phone = call related to the deployment itself. That deployment will be dual = stack. The reason it is dual stack is that Cisco is not stopping doing = business during the transition; we still need to communicate with = customers and business partners that have not yet deployed, and = world-wide we have roughly 100,000 people that have to do their work = during the transition. When IPv6 has been fully deployed throughout Cisco, a process started a = year ago and which I expect will take the coming year, Cisco will start = asking the question of IPv4 turn-down. That will not be a technical = decision; it will be a business decision. One by one, I would expect = Cisco to temporarily and then permanently disable IPv4 access to various = internal applications. When Cisco has no more internal applications = running that use IPv4, the only real use of IPv4 in Cisco will be access = to the outside world. At some point, I would expect Cisco to determine = that the business need to use IPv4 to do that has diminished, and IPv4 = support is no longer needed. Very honestly, the turn-down process is not a priority for Cisco. The = equipment and configurations required for IPv4 are sunk cost, and the = bandwidth is essentially the same whether IPv4 or IPv6. I expect the = turn-down process to take as long as is necessary, and probably a lot = longer. Who am I to tell people to do dual stack? Someone who is doing dual = stack, and whose corporate share-holders and management will consider = nothing else. /***** *****/ If I am incorrect, I know someone will correct me; my guess is that the = fundamental needs of enterprise, access, and transit networks are = roughly the same, although they are discussed and carried out in = different ways.=20 First, we all need enough addresses to run our businesses, whether we = are edge networks, access networks, or transit networks. Not all are feeling the address pinch yet, and a surprising number of = edge networks that I talk with don't expect an address pinch at all. The = issue of address availability applies to networks that need a flow of = address space to deploy new services or meet new customer needs; = businesses that don't require addresses to do that don't have that = requirement. So when I say that IPv4 addresses are running out, those = businesses yawn. For them, the issue that the coming few years impose is = one of accessibility to business partners that do have the issue and as = a result will deploy. Call that "denial" if you like; it's a viewpoint = that I hear expressed. Any network that does require additional address space from time to time = is looking at a continuity of business situation. Not continuity of = business with its existing infrastructure, which is paid-in-full, = operational, and working, but its new businesses, services, or customer = bases. It will deploy IPv6 to meet that new addressing need. Second, we all need to serve the needs of our customers. Those = "customers" may be employees, who need to use the network to access = applications relevant to the operation of our own business, or who need = to talk with business partners and corporate clients in the course of = doing business. They may literally be customers in the case of access = networks, or peers in the case of transit networks.=20 These face a problem - many of their employees or customers require = access to the IPv4 Internet in some form while that deployment is = happening, and turning up IPv6 requires them to audit their networks = (does the current software support what they want to do? If not, do they = need new hardware to deploy the needed new software?), prove out new = configurations, and turn them up. As you know, that is not a matter of = snapping one's fingers. If they had started when they should have, it = would literally have been a matter of turning up IPv6 in their existing = IPv4 networks; they didn't, and many are now turning to some variation = on CGN as described in draft-ietf-v6ops-incremental-cgn to keep IPv4 = services stumbling along while they deploy.=20 You would like us to tell people to, while they are turning IPv6 on, to = turn IPv4 off or in their new network zones deploy no IPv4 capability. = This doesn't work, due to business continuity. At some point in the = future, an IPv6-only service that is not a walled garden will be = feasible; today, without IPv4 service, nothing on the IPv4 Internet - by = every estimate I see larger than 95% of the Internet - is accessible. I = have above given you a very clear view of the implications of that for = an edge network; for an access network, selling a service that fails to = provide access seems an oxymoron, and for a transit network, it's a dead = end. I fail to see how any network, SOHO, SMB, Enterprise, Access, or = Transit, is served by failing to meet the needs of its employees or = customers. > 1. Please reconsider explicitly recommending dual stack. Perhaps put > it some verbiage about "no pain, no gain" In view of my argument above, what argument should I give that will = convince someone to discontinue their current business operation while = they deploy IPv6? > 2. Revise statement about literals. The current unqualified and > unbounded statement without context gives the wrong impression. I believe that I have addressed your comments in ftp://ftpeng.cisco.com/fred/v6ops/transition-guideline.txt I would appreciate your further constructive remarks. > 3. Squarely face the issue of a fragmented internet where there is > ipv6.google.com, ipv6.t-mobile.com, www.ipv6.cisco.com > www.v6.facebook.com as well as aaaa whitelist that Yahoo and Google > are pushing. I believe the reality of these sites and the DNS > whitelist are more votes against DS. http://www.ipv6.cisco.com/, like IPv6.Google.Com and IPv6.Facebook.Com, = is indeed IPv6-only. There is a reason, and it has nothing to do with = deploying a perfectly usable service. It is to test access to Cisco's = public web site using IPv6. What purpose would dual stack deployment = have in that context? In time, I fully expect the deployment of AAAA records for www.cisco.com = and its counterparts at the other companies you mention. That will not = be a "trial" scenario; it will be a "service" scenario. I think the = correct way to read the existence of sites like these that are IPv6-only = and force one to "do something different" to get to them is that the = companies don't yet consider them to be ready for prime time. Given that, I'm not sure what you are asking me to squarely face. I = would, though, invite you to squarely face the business requirements of = networks that are deploying in a dual stack configuration.=20 If you would like, we could jointly look at an RFC 4192 follow-on that = discusses the process of transition. I suspect, though, that the = "transition" part, the part where we turn down IPv4, will in most places = be as it is at Cisco - a business matter. IPv4 will stay up while there = is a business need, and will probably stay up for a period of time when = there is no remaining real business need "just in case". It will be = turned down when its day is simply over. From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Aug 20 11:50:04 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 778973A6B2C for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 11:50:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.28 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.28 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.843, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_NET=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uuhdT+n0cFk0 for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 11:50:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F08503A6B45 for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 11:49:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OmWcz-000Ch6-RK for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 18:47:45 +0000 Received: from [76.96.62.48] (helo=qmta05.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OmWcx-000CfF-6w for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 18:47:43 +0000 Received: from omta12.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.62.44]) by qmta05.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net with comcast id wi7M1e0050xGWP855iniP5; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 18:47:42 +0000 Received: from dhcp-171-70-244-118.cisco.com ([171.70.244.118]) by omta12.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net with comcast id winB1e0072ZzSm33YinHha; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 18:47:36 +0000 From: Tony Li Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Review of draft-narten-ipv6-3177bis-48boundary-05 Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 11:47:08 -0700 Message-Id: Cc: int-area@ietf.org To: IPv6 Operations Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1081) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1081) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: Hi all, This is a solicited review of draft-narten-ipv6-3177bis-48boundary-05. History: The IAB & IESG made some recommendations for v6 addressing in = RFC 3177. In particular, the recommended the assignment of /48 to a = site. This draft reconsiders that recommendation, and argues that more = flexibility would be reasonable. 1) The draft retracts the recommendation that /128's can be allocated to = sites. The text here is clear about sites, but could possibly call out = the distinction between a site and a host. Clearly /128 allocations to = a single host are a necessary alternative. Consider the case of a hot = spot service provider. Allocating a /48 or even a /64 to each laptop in = the coffee shop is not necessary or sane practice. 2) The draft calls out a specific motivation that sites should get = enough address space so that they do not feel compelled to use NAT. = While this is fine in principle, the pragmatics here are hard to defend. = A site can easily make unjustified claims to arbitrary amounts of = address space. It is unreasonable to expect that every RIR and LIR is = going to make detailed investigations for every single address space = request, so there will be established policies for address space = assignment, possibly with economic disincentives for over-allocation. = However, this will not prevent some end-sites wanting more, especially = to avoid additional costs. Thus, some sites will still feel compelled = to use NAT. We should avoid the hubris that we can dictate business = practices. 3) The draft includes a discussion about the rationale of RFC 3177's = argument in favor of /48 to simplify renumbering. It is certainly true = that renumbering from one prefix to another is greatly simplified if the = prefixes are the same size. The important point, missed in both 3177 = and this draft, is that this only argues that any given site get the = same sized prefix. This does not imply that it needs to be a /48 for = all sites. Nor is there ANY benefit from that. For example, if a site = had a /57 (bad for other reasons), then having another /57 to renumber = into satisfies this requirement. /48 is not necessary, nor is any other = fixed size. 4) The draft seems to shy away from making clear replacement = recommendations. While it recommends that policy take certain points = into consideration, this seems like mere rhetoric and lacking in any = substance. I strongly recommend that the draft make real = recommendations and very clearly call those out. If nothing else, the = draft needs to clearly and explicitly vacate the previous /48 = recommendation. This seems to be done in the Introduction, which seems = somewhat odd. 5) The draft misses the opportunity to call for work in v6 renumbering. = The fact of the matter is that sooner or later, sites will need to = renumber. Even given adequate address space, there are other compelling = events (e.g., corporate acquisitions) that drive renumbering. There's = much work to do here. If we make the assumption that renumbering WILL = be easy (and make it come to pass), then it's reasonable to argue that = renumbering into a larger prefix is easy and thus we can be more = conservative in initial site addressing. Regards, Tony Li, Ph.D. Cisco Fellow Cisco Systems, Inc. From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Aug 20 12:15:32 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7239D3A686D for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 12:15:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.849 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.849 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.354, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TfUVXlxPmuaW for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 12:15:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 095303A694D for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 12:14:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OmWzE-000G12-9e for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 19:10:44 +0000 Received: from [209.85.161.180] (helo=mail-gx0-f180.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OmWzB-000G0U-68 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 19:10:41 +0000 Received: by gxk22 with SMTP id 22so2067008gxk.11 for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 12:10:40 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:received:in-reply-to :references:date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=jY+tgJpLd2k12jw714xvxu7MNF2mNn7R9xIeExAe86s=; b=TbyHhDKd/PwJwqIGkjJQX5ejOp7Xp1t0bEbTzSYe14wId1aZIMtg0fLBpSt9XmiZdA t16WaNkpSLQtLBQbFxp19+wXiohnD2JSiUKsPwUW1h0QXHm4oTCHgy9fIJsvcDQhh2PK xbaY9r5fTKAVHVghjDyrFYUjYJ5QjSbkdkrgw= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=q6yGA5LQ2DH19tt2KHYGHAXDSy1R/nNr/En9uu8i6+61jEP1bKORCHtQNK2BiFzhcS Fe2uRW/HcfdJWzzGWlkQS2nJ9DuSpAaVPinqErjwD93GHBicqqG15V2FW/pbvsVWR2rf rAeYbuI3BdeVULTaXw6LztPkK97gc3LyHwLgc= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.151.47.4 with SMTP id z4mr2494321ybj.114.1282331440090; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 12:10:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.12.2 with HTTP; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 12:10:39 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <1E46BEA0-85C4-44B0-B76B-29CBB7515ACF@cisco.com> References: <018544C5-8D1E-412A-B6E4-F12623E66366@cisco.com> <1E46BEA0-85C4-44B0-B76B-29CBB7515ACF@cisco.com> Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 12:10:39 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC From: Cameron Byrne To: Fred Baker Cc: IPv6 v6ops , Kurt Erik Lindqvist , Ron Bonica , v4tov6transition@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: > "Dual Stack" is a renumbering plan, if you will. Instead of renumbering a= n IPv6 network, it renumbers an IPv4 network as an an IPv6 network. RFC 419= 2 explicitly addresses business continuity on the existing numbering plane = (IPv4 in this case) during deployment, and discusses how one tells whether = and when one is ready to shift to the new numbering plan (IPv6 in this case= ), and ultimately how to turn down the old numbering plan. > > I find your remark here confusing. Why would one disrupt one's own busine= ss for a network reason? Why would one not seek to continue their business = operations during the change? Help me out here. > Sorry, i have my mobile network blinders on. In the USA, generally speaking, large corporations and fixed line providers are not growing subscribers at a very fast pace. Mobile data subscribers, on the other hand, are growing very fast and with M2M they will grow faster. Not having IPv4 addresses available is a serious business continuity issue we have in the near term. Mobile providers in the USA use N*RFC1918 or BOGONs. VZW at the Google conference said they have 40*net-10, and AT&T has a similar issues, and these issues have hampered innovation in the IMS/SIP, e2e, p2p space ... lots of SIP B2BUA attempting to stitch together overlapping address space. And, as i have pointed out before in various forums, today's 3G networks require 2x the signalling and packet core cost for dual stack users (2x bearers, 2x mobility events, 2x many things ...). Yes, the costs change in LTE .... LTE will not be mainstream before IPv4 Exhaust. > > Which is to say that you have convinced them that they actually have to t= urn on IPv6, and good for you. Understand that dual stack has not failed fo= r anyone that has tried it. What has failed is "not turning on IPv6". > My free advice does not go nearly as far as codified IETF document. I cannot take credit for convince anyone of anything. Regarding dual-stack has not failed anyone, i direct you to the Yahoo and Google discussions about DNS white listing. http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/10mar/slides/dnsop-7.pdf I also site that dual-stack in 3GPP before release 9 is 2x the cost. I cannot ask "the business" guys to 2x the packet core network budget to support 2x the PDP bearers + all that IPv4 NAT. > Not all are feeling the address pinch yet, and a surprising number of edg= e networks that I talk with don't expect an address pinch at all. The issue= of address availability applies to networks that need a flow of address sp= ace to deploy new services or meet new customer needs; businesses that don'= t require addresses to do that don't have that requirement. So when I say t= hat IPv4 addresses are running out, those businesses yawn. For them, the is= sue that the coming few years impose is one of accessibility to business pa= rtners that do have the issue and as a result will deploy. Call that "denia= l" if you like; it's a viewpoint that I hear expressed. Onces again, i site my mobile focus. I understand people that have IPv4 addresses and are not experiencing exponential growth at the edge may not be concerned. > In view of my argument above, what argument should I give that will convi= nce someone to discontinue their current business operation while they depl= oy IPv6? > IPv4 is not going away. But, IPv6-only host must emerge as the edge grows (mobile ..., M2M, ...) From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Aug 20 12:53:18 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A6EA3A698E for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 12:53:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.241 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.241 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.242, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_24=0.6, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tCb7qg9XINiC for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 12:53:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B8113A68B2 for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 12:53:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OmXbm-000LEd-JE for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 19:50:34 +0000 Received: from [2a00:801::f] (helo=uplift.swm.pp.se) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OmXbk-000LDp-5e for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 19:50:32 +0000 Received: by uplift.swm.pp.se (Postfix, from userid 501) id 33D61A0; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 21:50:30 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by uplift.swm.pp.se (Postfix) with ESMTP id 331259E; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 21:50:30 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 21:50:30 +0200 (CEST) From: Mikael Abrahamsson To: Cameron Byrne cc: Fred Baker , IPv6 v6ops , Kurt Erik Lindqvist , Ron Bonica , v4tov6transition@ietf.org Subject: Re: draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <018544C5-8D1E-412A-B6E4-F12623E66366@cisco.com> <1E46BEA0-85C4-44B0-B76B-29CBB7515ACF@cisco.com> User-Agent: Alpine 1.10 (DEB 962 2008-03-14) Organization: People's Front Against WWW MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: On Fri, 20 Aug 2010, Cameron Byrne wrote: > And, as i have pointed out before in various forums, today's 3G networks > require 2x the signalling and packet core cost for dual stack users (2x > bearers, 2x mobility events, 2x many things ...). Yes, the costs change > in LTE .... LTE will not be mainstream before IPv4 Exhaust. I would like to question the 2x cost. Yes, multi-bearer per user license cost money, so does handling 2x numbers of bearer, but the number of packets isn't going to be 2x so actual packet moving hw won't be even close to 2x cost. More license, more HLR/MME/SPGW/GGSN/SGSN signalling, but not more packets. I also don't really see how LTE changes things dramatically in this aspect, to enable roaming we're going to be stuck at GTPv1 bearers for the forseeable future (IMHO), so we're still going to have to do 2x PDP context for users with IPv4 and IPv6 dual stack. It might even be that ds.lite with ipv6 only to the phone makes more sense here because I'd imagine that enables roaming with single PDP context/bearer instead of multiple, and I'd imagine the roaming network doesn't really care if the user has IPv4 or IPv6? I'm not a roaming expert though, might be wrong. -- Mikael Abrahamsson email: swmike@swm.pp.se From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Aug 20 13:19:48 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A1B53A695F for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 13:19:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -109.15 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-109.15 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.655, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, RDNS_NONE=0.1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XVzSw9SnkAaF for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 13:19:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48E9B3A659C for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 13:19:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OmY0l-000PFj-It for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 20:16:23 +0000 Received: from [171.71.176.117] (helo=sj-iport-6.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OmY0i-000PFH-Oy for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 20:16:20 +0000 Authentication-Results: sj-iport-6.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AvsEAOJ/bkyrR7Ht/2dsb2JhbACgPXGgJptdhTcEhDSFPw X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.56,241,1280707200"; d="scan'208";a="576538919" Received: from sj-core-1.cisco.com ([171.71.177.237]) by sj-iport-6.cisco.com with ESMTP; 20 Aug 2010 20:16:20 +0000 Received: from stealth-10-32-244-218.cisco.com (stealth-10-32-244-218.cisco.com [10.32.244.218]) by sj-core-1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o7KKGB19008900; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 20:16:13 GMT Received: from [127.0.0.1] by stealth-10-32-244-218.cisco.com (PGP Universal service); Fri, 20 Aug 2010 13:16:20 -0700 X-PGP-Universal: processed; by stealth-10-32-244-218.cisco.com on Fri, 20 Aug 2010 13:16:20 -0700 Subject: Re: [Int-area] Review of draft-narten-ipv6-3177bis-48boundary-05 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1081) From: Fred Baker In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 13:16:05 -0700 Cc: IPv6 Operations , int-area@ietf.org Message-Id: <28C4A15C-DE54-4DD2-A5FD-33BFF66EFE83@cisco.com> References: To: Tony Li X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1081) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: Thanks, Tony. Let me comment on one point in your review. On Aug 20, 2010, at 11:47 AM, Tony Li wrote: > 5) The draft misses the opportunity to call for work in v6 = renumbering. The fact of the matter is that sooner or later, sites will = need to renumber. Even given adequate address space, there are other = compelling events (e.g., corporate acquisitions) that drive renumbering. = There's much work to do here. If we make the assumption that = renumbering WILL be easy (and make it come to pass), then it's = reasonable to argue that renumbering into a larger prefix is easy and = thus we can be more conservative in initial site addressing. When I sat down to write what is now RFC 4192, I was really scratching = my head. Given that an IPv6 (or for that matter, an IPv4) interface can = take two or more prefixes, it seemed to me that there was an obvious = procedure for renumbering a network: 1) start with a working network that you don't like the address plan of 2) design a new address plan using a different set of numbers 3) configure the network equipment to use the new plan in addition to = the old 4) test the new plan, fixing whatever needs to be fixed ---> you now have two working networks running on the same = infrastructure <---- ---> but you are only using one, the "old" one = <---- 5) tell the hosts and their applications to use the new address plan 6) verify that the hosts and applications in fact all work using the new = plan ---> you now have two working networks running on the same = infrastructure <---- ---> and you are actively using both of them = <---- 7) stop advertising services using the old address plan ---> you now have two working networks running on the same = infrastructure <---- ---> but you are only using one, the "new" one = <---- 8) do what you like with the old plan Several of those points obviously imply waiting periods - the fact that = you removed a resource record in step 7 doesn't mean you're ready for = step 8, for example.=20 I then went to the operational community, inside and outside Cisco, and = said "OK, I already know I'm insane. What I need to understand is WHY = I'm insane." I got an education, and much of what I learned wound up explicitly = called out in the document. The thing that makes renumbering hard has = nothing to do with the procedures for renumbering. It has to do with = places where people type in numeric IP addresses, whether in router = configurations like interface addresses and route maps or in = applications that "Just Know" that the address of some system is = 192.0.2.1 or 2001:db8::12. Web pages that refer to other servers by = address instead of by name, SIP referrals, FTP (which tops it all by = having a different passive mode command and behavior for IPv6 than it = has for IPv4), and so on. To be really honest, I have concluded that every time we further = idiot-proof the world, the world makes better idiots. I'm all for improving our ability to renumber, but I'm not sure that's = something the IETF can solve technically. Vendors can help, by providing = configuration options that associate names with numbers in one common = location and then enables the administrator to use the names in = configuration files. But even those have issues. Consider this one: You have a router configured: ! ipv6 unicast-routing ipv6 general-prefix EXAMPLE 2001:0DB8:0:0::/48 ! interface foo 1 ipv6 address EXAMPLE 0:0:0:0::/64 eui-64 ipv6 enable ! interface foo 2 ipv6 address EXAMPLE 0:0:0:1::/64 eui-64 ipv6 enable ! interface foo 3 ipv6 address EXAMPLE 0:0:0:2::/64 eui-64 ipv6 enable ! Now, someone decides to renumber the network, and replaces the = general-prefix using ipv6 general-prefix EXAMPLE 2001:0DB8:1:0::/48 What happens? The network stops working for a period of time, at least = through that router; depending on the placement of the router, the = outage may prevent access to other routers that happen to be beyond it, = and certainly disrupts the operations of hosts on the networks it is = attached to. Why? Because the existing routing depended on the old = prefix, and in replacing the configuration outright it disrupted the = existing routing before the new prefix was stable in the network. What should they have done? They should have configured ! ipv6 general-prefix EXAMPLE2 2001:0DB8:1:0::/48 ! interface foo 1 ipv6 address EXAMPLE2 0:0:0:0::/64 eui-64 ! interface foo 2 ipv6 address EXAMPLE2 0:0:0:1::/64 eui-64 ! interface foo 3 ipv6 address EXAMPLE2 0:0:0:2::/64 eui-64 ! waited and tested, and at some later time when the new prefix and old = prefixes provably both worked for everyone concerned, applied no ipv6 general-prefix EXAMPLE 2001:0DB8:0:0::/48 ! interface foo 1 no ipv6 address EXAMPLE 0:0:0:0::/64 eui-64 ! interface foo 2 no ipv6 address EXAMPLE 0:0:0:1::/64 eui-64 ! interface foo 3 no ipv6 address EXAMPLE 0:0:0:2::/64 eui-64 In this case, the "better idiot" worked at a random router vendor of = your and my acquaintance. Said person thought that by providing the = general-prefix, s/he had made renumbering simple. No, s/he had at most = added a level of indirection to the routing configuration. s/he could be forgiven for the error, though; it is essentially the same = as is recommended in RFC 2894, which has the network administrator = distribute commands to, in its words instruct the router to ... remove the prefix which matched the Match-Prefix and replace it with the Use-Prefixes, or replace all global-scope prefixes with the Use-Prefixes. with the effect of disrupting the old prefix at a time that the new = prefix is not yet fully deployed or distributed in routing, neighbor = discovery, etc. Yes, it also has the option of adding a second prefix, = which is what it should have done, but it doesn't have the option of = removing a prefix. I guess you're supposed to add new prefixes, and then = replace the old prefixes with the already-added new prefixes. Maybe. Yes, we need work on renumbering. But I think it will require more than = a simple technical solution.= From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Aug 20 13:25:19 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D3BA3A6943 for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 13:25:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -109.146 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-109.146 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.651, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, RDNS_NONE=0.1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0vSmDmDQMyq6 for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 13:25:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44D313A68B6 for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 13:25:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OmY7x-00008W-Vo for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 20:23:49 +0000 Received: from [171.71.176.117] (helo=sj-iport-6.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OmY7v-00008H-Ao for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 20:23:47 +0000 Authentication-Results: sj-iport-6.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AvsEAAOBbkyrR7H+/2dsb2JhbACgPXGgJZtchTcEhDSFPw X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.56,241,1280707200"; d="scan'208";a="576543384" Received: from sj-core-2.cisco.com ([171.71.177.254]) by sj-iport-6.cisco.com with ESMTP; 20 Aug 2010 20:23:46 +0000 Received: from stealth-10-32-244-218.cisco.com (stealth-10-32-244-218.cisco.com [10.32.244.218]) by sj-core-2.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o7KKNcgE024737; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 20:23:40 GMT Received: from [127.0.0.1] by stealth-10-32-244-218.cisco.com (PGP Universal service); Fri, 20 Aug 2010 13:23:46 -0700 X-PGP-Universal: processed; by stealth-10-32-244-218.cisco.com on Fri, 20 Aug 2010 13:23:46 -0700 Subject: Re: [Int-area] Review of draft-narten-ipv6-3177bis-48boundary-05 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1081) From: Fred Baker In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 13:23:32 -0700 Cc: Tony Li , IPv6 Operations , "int-area@ietf.org" Message-Id: <188C11C5-CDBA-4213-83AC-453AE06ADAD5@cisco.com> References: To: Eric Gray X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1081) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: On Aug 20, 2010, at 12:49 PM, Eric Gray wrote: > Having multiple chunk sizes seems to me to be a recipe for in- > efficient use of address space in general. =20 speaking for myself, I think a one-size-fits-all model has the same = effect. In my home, today, I have two LANs; I could easily imagine = expanding that to half a dozen or even a dozen in various scenarios. = Giving me a /48 is a waste of address space - it's at least 4096 times = as much as I need, and would give my upstream the ability to address = 4095 more homes like mine if they were to allocate /60's. To the extent = that they are paying their RIR for address space, er, membership, it = wastes their money and increases my monthly payment.=20 I think there is a great reason to suggest that access and transit = networks to offer their downstreams /48, /52, /56, and /60 options at = various costs. It makes business sense for them, allows them to = reasonably recover their costs without burdening the downstreams, allows = for downstreams to number their networks in ways they like and = reasonably move up to shorter prefixes when they need to, and (since I = didn't mention /64) ensures that the smallest users - residential/SOHO - = have options for routing within the home as appropriate.= From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Aug 20 13:34:41 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90FE23A6A06 for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 13:34:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.489 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.489 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.994, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Js-fwSoYjnsZ for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 13:34:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42BFA3A6A41 for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 13:33:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OmYFS-000109-DT for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 20:31:34 +0000 Received: from [209.85.215.52] (helo=mail-ew0-f52.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OmYFO-0000zQ-TI for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 20:31:31 +0000 Received: by ewy20 with SMTP id 20so3101322ewy.11 for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 13:31:29 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from :organization:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=lmh8JRrr3aEClalQeba4EV6nC94Svo3dqAlSyQnMsIU=; b=dg1vaKJpo7lsOpHygI/WOIVmEIsGn0F2CuRy/2FCqacTP9U6ErmOUIv23LR5it5Dpw /S7lPQ8PAfdOKA0FZIZaFRl+wZ2YQC9wgFzajF+9HIINOLwGyGP0xOPm5f2fx+M12Rew oy9CLjgAJTM3e/3MOfmtkR0HWvd6KaGNjYBk4= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:organization:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc :subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=HF5SoPV+fhyFgic4Ecb5uDQ021oaGH5wzarx71VpOUBTIywAm4YVn7jN6wo55BKKaN nKN8ZSKb5cAIXQedK+XN4kyTB5rIh8J/H0mNEajwUsKv0lRPdyvOdegDUwj1RlVEtICN h3fY0sJWThA7xhXTgVbp6vQPdBq0piszJu/+w= Received: by 10.216.1.6 with SMTP id 6mr1755906wec.24.1282336289472; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 13:31:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.1.1.4] ([121.98.142.15]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id o84sm2091116wej.13.2010.08.20.13.31.25 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Fri, 20 Aug 2010 13:31:28 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4C6EE613.9000704@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 08:31:15 +1200 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Windows/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Fred Baker CC: Tony Li , IPv6 Operations , int-area@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Int-area] Review of draft-narten-ipv6-3177bis-48boundary-05 References: <28C4A15C-DE54-4DD2-A5FD-33BFF66EFE83@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <28C4A15C-DE54-4DD2-A5FD-33BFF66EFE83@cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: +1 to Fred's comments. For more details, see RFC 5887. Regards Brian Carpenter On 2010-08-21 08:16, Fred Baker wrote: > Thanks, Tony. > > Let me comment on one point in your review. > > On Aug 20, 2010, at 11:47 AM, Tony Li wrote: > >> 5) The draft misses the opportunity to call for work in v6 renumbering. The fact of the matter is that sooner or later, sites will need to renumber. Even given adequate address space, there are other compelling events (e.g., corporate acquisitions) that drive renumbering. There's much work to do here. If we make the assumption that renumbering WILL be easy (and make it come to pass), then it's reasonable to argue that renumbering into a larger prefix is easy and thus we can be more conservative in initial site addressing. > > When I sat down to write what is now RFC 4192, I was really scratching my head. Given that an IPv6 (or for that matter, an IPv4) interface can take two or more prefixes, it seemed to me that there was an obvious procedure for renumbering a network: > > 1) start with a working network that you don't like the address plan of > 2) design a new address plan using a different set of numbers > 3) configure the network equipment to use the new plan in addition to the old > 4) test the new plan, fixing whatever needs to be fixed > ---> you now have two working networks running on the same infrastructure <---- > ---> but you are only using one, the "old" one <---- > 5) tell the hosts and their applications to use the new address plan > 6) verify that the hosts and applications in fact all work using the new plan > ---> you now have two working networks running on the same infrastructure <---- > ---> and you are actively using both of them <---- > 7) stop advertising services using the old address plan > ---> you now have two working networks running on the same infrastructure <---- > ---> but you are only using one, the "new" one <---- > 8) do what you like with the old plan > > Several of those points obviously imply waiting periods - the fact that you removed a resource record in step 7 doesn't mean you're ready for step 8, for example. > > I then went to the operational community, inside and outside Cisco, and said "OK, I already know I'm insane. What I need to understand is WHY I'm insane." > > I got an education, and much of what I learned wound up explicitly called out in the document. The thing that makes renumbering hard has nothing to do with the procedures for renumbering. It has to do with places where people type in numeric IP addresses, whether in router configurations like interface addresses and route maps or in applications that "Just Know" that the address of some system is 192.0.2.1 or 2001:db8::12. Web pages that refer to other servers by address instead of by name, SIP referrals, FTP (which tops it all by having a different passive mode command and behavior for IPv6 than it has for IPv4), and so on. > > To be really honest, I have concluded that every time we further idiot-proof the world, the world makes better idiots. > > I'm all for improving our ability to renumber, but I'm not sure that's something the IETF can solve technically. Vendors can help, by providing configuration options that associate names with numbers in one common location and then enables the administrator to use the names in configuration files. But even those have issues. Consider this one: > > You have a router configured: > > ! > ipv6 unicast-routing > ipv6 general-prefix EXAMPLE 2001:0DB8:0:0::/48 > ! > interface foo 1 > ipv6 address EXAMPLE 0:0:0:0::/64 eui-64 > ipv6 enable > ! > interface foo 2 > ipv6 address EXAMPLE 0:0:0:1::/64 eui-64 > ipv6 enable > ! > interface foo 3 > ipv6 address EXAMPLE 0:0:0:2::/64 eui-64 > ipv6 enable > ! > > Now, someone decides to renumber the network, and replaces the general-prefix using > > ipv6 general-prefix EXAMPLE 2001:0DB8:1:0::/48 > > What happens? The network stops working for a period of time, at least through that router; depending on the placement of the router, the outage may prevent access to other routers that happen to be beyond it, and certainly disrupts the operations of hosts on the networks it is attached to. Why? Because the existing routing depended on the old prefix, and in replacing the configuration outright it disrupted the existing routing before the new prefix was stable in the network. > > What should they have done? > > They should have configured > > ! > ipv6 general-prefix EXAMPLE2 2001:0DB8:1:0::/48 > ! > interface foo 1 > ipv6 address EXAMPLE2 0:0:0:0::/64 eui-64 > ! > interface foo 2 > ipv6 address EXAMPLE2 0:0:0:1::/64 eui-64 > ! > interface foo 3 > ipv6 address EXAMPLE2 0:0:0:2::/64 eui-64 > ! > > waited and tested, and at some later time when the new prefix and old prefixes provably both worked for everyone concerned, applied > > no ipv6 general-prefix EXAMPLE 2001:0DB8:0:0::/48 > ! > interface foo 1 > no ipv6 address EXAMPLE 0:0:0:0::/64 eui-64 > ! > interface foo 2 > no ipv6 address EXAMPLE 0:0:0:1::/64 eui-64 > ! > interface foo 3 > no ipv6 address EXAMPLE 0:0:0:2::/64 eui-64 > > > In this case, the "better idiot" worked at a random router vendor of your and my acquaintance. Said person thought that by providing the general-prefix, s/he had made renumbering simple. No, s/he had at most added a level of indirection to the routing configuration. > > s/he could be forgiven for the error, though; it is essentially the same as is recommended in RFC 2894, which has the network administrator distribute commands to, in its words > > instruct the router to ... remove the prefix > which matched the Match-Prefix and replace it with the Use-Prefixes, > or replace all global-scope prefixes with the Use-Prefixes. > > with the effect of disrupting the old prefix at a time that the new prefix is not yet fully deployed or distributed in routing, neighbor discovery, etc. Yes, it also has the option of adding a second prefix, which is what it should have done, but it doesn't have the option of removing a prefix. I guess you're supposed to add new prefixes, and then replace the old prefixes with the already-added new prefixes. Maybe. > > Yes, we need work on renumbering. But I think it will require more than a simple technical solution. > _______________________________________________ > Int-area mailing list > Int-area@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/int-area > From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Aug 20 13:36:15 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 639C73A695F for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 13:36:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.457 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.457 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.962, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uGLCK7dCGc5B for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 13:36:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14A7E3A693E for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 13:36:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OmYJT-0001WD-Na for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 20:35:43 +0000 Received: from [209.85.212.52] (helo=mail-vw0-f52.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OmYJQ-0001Vr-UB for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 20:35:41 +0000 Received: by vws14 with SMTP id 14so4755978vws.11 for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 13:35:40 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from :organization:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=CmQYAgbCJ+/X6mXcTFp3PjeQIKa2KhoIONHxgY27AQs=; b=EBTUwGN/Kuqvzn+drCKZoLyfHXRgsmGAUVvL6sj/3nWaFHkb3Ed+mtJkhZXsjvqMK1 LnmCWfDExCzBp40boBWBpVc9a5VbntBC6kvKKMtgpZdzEIUehoJX2QAjUiO1l3XmdYTZ AagRcC245tWi6fA3sf+z2kB2qudYiG3+6vEzg= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:organization:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc :subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=xQSKCTMJLpK7QfpuyC7AKQ2tZihTh5cLF5sZWNMz6CSc6n5IltzGhgu8xgHvsKrRWM H6kzAZYqwtPAcuh50crXMvoq6lKldHWAhA/tC1xuTx9v7Z0kkxMfMUY4KFx+09vS+qlh a6oYbHWsKGNKSSlNed9OtOsG3+Dl0uXpGhrl0= Received: by 10.220.169.14 with SMTP id w14mr1184378vcy.157.1282336539919; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 13:35:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.1.1.4] ([121.98.142.15]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id i23sm1267529vcr.10.2010.08.20.13.35.37 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Fri, 20 Aug 2010 13:35:39 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4C6EE713.9080805@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 08:35:31 +1200 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Windows/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Fred Baker CC: Eric Gray , IPv6 Operations , "int-area@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Int-area] Review of draft-narten-ipv6-3177bis-48boundary-05 References: <188C11C5-CDBA-4213-83AC-453AE06ADAD5@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <188C11C5-CDBA-4213-83AC-453AE06ADAD5@cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: On 2010-08-21 08:23, Fred Baker wrote: > On Aug 20, 2010, at 12:49 PM, Eric Gray wrote: > >> Having multiple chunk sizes seems to me to be a recipe for in- >> efficient use of address space in general. > > speaking for myself, I think a one-size-fits-all model has the same effect. In my home, today, I have two LANs; I could easily imagine expanding that to half a dozen or even a dozen in various scenarios. Giving me a /48 is a waste of address space - it's at least 4096 times as much as I need, and would give my upstream the ability to address 4095 more homes like mine if they were to allocate /60's. To the extent that they are paying their RIR for address space, er, membership, it wastes their money and increases my monthly payment. > > I think there is a great reason to suggest that access and transit networks to offer their downstreams /48, /52, /56, and /60 options at various costs. It makes business sense for them, allows them to reasonably recover their costs without burdening the downstreams, allows for downstreams to number their networks in ways they like and reasonably move up to shorter prefixes when they need to, and (since I didn't mention /64) ensures that the smallest users - residential/SOHO - have options for routing within the home as appropriate. Another +1 to Fred. I was originally a strong advocate of Eric's view, in fact I take credit/blame for a lot of RFC3177, but I believe that experience, especially the remarkable success of CIDR in controlling the growth of PA routes for IPv4, and the acquired wisdom of the RIRs in administering CIDR, have shown that there is no efficiency benefit in fixed chunks. Brian From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Aug 20 13:42:40 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12E293A693E for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 13:42:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -109.142 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-109.142 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.647, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, RDNS_NONE=0.1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bR6rkuJKbDFj for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 13:42:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1CFA3A6943 for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 13:42:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OmYP3-0002F0-U8 for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 20:41:29 +0000 Received: from [171.71.176.117] (helo=sj-iport-6.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OmYP1-0002Ee-DS for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 20:41:27 +0000 Authentication-Results: sj-iport-6.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AvsEALOFbkyrR7Ht/2dsb2JhbACgPXGgCptchTcEhDSFPw X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.56,242,1280707200"; d="scan'208";a="576553985" Received: from sj-core-1.cisco.com ([171.71.177.237]) by sj-iport-6.cisco.com with ESMTP; 20 Aug 2010 20:41:26 +0000 Received: from stealth-10-32-244-218.cisco.com (stealth-10-32-244-218.cisco.com [10.32.244.218]) by sj-core-1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o7KKfIUl027217; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 20:41:20 GMT Received: from [127.0.0.1] by stealth-10-32-244-218.cisco.com (PGP Universal service); Fri, 20 Aug 2010 13:41:26 -0700 X-PGP-Universal: processed; by stealth-10-32-244-218.cisco.com on Fri, 20 Aug 2010 13:41:26 -0700 Subject: Re: draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1081) From: Fred Baker In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 13:41:12 -0700 Cc: IPv6 v6ops , Kurt Erik Lindqvist , Ron Bonica , v4tov6transition@ietf.org Message-Id: References: <018544C5-8D1E-412A-B6E4-F12623E66366@cisco.com> <1E46BEA0-85C4-44B0-B76B-29CBB7515ACF@cisco.com> To: Cameron Byrne X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1081) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: On Aug 20, 2010, at 12:10 PM, Cameron Byrne wrote: > IPv6-only host must emerge as the edge grows (mobile ..., M2M, ...) I certainly agree with that. Understand that mobile handsets are already = and increasingly both IPv4 and IPv6 capable. The issue is in the = network, and it is in the applications that those handsets use. The = applications like to call gethostbyname() instead of getaddrinfo(), and = as a result are IPv4-aware instead of being network layer agnostic. That = was Hui Deng's point in the two 3GPP/IETF joint workshops and in the = pnat discussion in behave. This document grew out of a powerpoint = presentation, pointed to as an informative reference, that I gave at the = first of those workshops, and summarizes both that talk and Jari's = experience using Ericsson's NAT64 solution at home. If I were king, and note that I am not at this instant wearing my shiny = working group chair crown, I'm wearing my dusty author's beret, = gethostbyname would disappear and applications that use it would be = given the option of complaining to /dev/null or fixing their code. At = some point, maybe the 3G vendors could help us out there...= From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Aug 20 14:01:08 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0B463A6A62 for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 14:01:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.429 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.429 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.934, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jGzpsfYsDdMH for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 14:01:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CBCC3A6A47 for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 14:01:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OmYeb-0004ZO-1I for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 20:57:33 +0000 Received: from [209.85.212.52] (helo=mail-vw0-f52.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OmYeY-0004Z7-MA for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 20:57:30 +0000 Received: by vws14 with SMTP id 14so4789544vws.11 for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 13:57:29 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from :organization:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=mSaayfSJ5vIcfv/FfdXfQYKV68PalXD/TBj5W6eERo8=; b=ou/rPQI++D8wiE+rw5WpC/HM8lzU5BrUEjP86sbsp4G71mGriVdil/t/Rq3qLGW153 Nebth0/Vpk/cCx0fec0hia2mnc4xVqzIVJzbZV/3FoNzukwR+o9OGPtWyryjoUCVxqXK hilMTSr2mUln4rog8Py4AFkZ60ZuFxaTT2iVE= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:organization:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc :subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=FHlxNf97qx2OsNBH4n0AFbSziE4tDbOUwNRZ3EiBGqqCt7XN8GD6uNgoEd40y6aS7j hl16l0Zk7tT1SlqAYreaWsbJLzs57Is4xxfw0/JW5t/kRQBdLIs+Qd8LCD2KsUtiJ2z9 vgpw/wrQjCO3JwWTmx13i4ENfwceHbG3zccf8= Received: by 10.220.61.199 with SMTP id u7mr1263948vch.0.1282337848960; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 13:57:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.1.1.4] ([121.98.142.15]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id e18sm1281932vcm.31.2010.08.20.13.57.26 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Fri, 20 Aug 2010 13:57:28 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4C6EEC30.5010409@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 08:57:20 +1200 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Windows/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Joel M. Halpern" CC: Fred Baker , IPv6 Operations , "int-area@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Int-area] Review of draft-narten-ipv6-3177bis-48boundary-05 References: <188C11C5-CDBA-4213-83AC-453AE06ADAD5@cisco.com> <4C6EE713.9080805@gmail.com> <4C6EE9D9.2090003@joelhalpern.com> In-Reply-To: <4C6EE9D9.2090003@joelhalpern.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: On 2010-08-21 08:47, Joel M. Halpern wrote: > There does seem to be one significant benefit for being able to get the > same size block from different providers. > If you have used one size, and change providers, if the prefix length > gets longer, you have to rework your plan. And if it gets shorter, but > you don't rework your plan, you are wasting a LOT of space. Yes. That's why there is a strong recommendation to people developing site addressing plans to use only the longest possible sub-prefix of their PA prefix, in case they later change to another ISP who gives them less PA space. > This does not mean that there should be one size for all cases.On the > other hand, telling operators that they must offer four different sizes > to all their customers (/48, /52, /56 and /60) makes the operator > bookkeeping harder, at the very least. There certainly should not be a MUST. In any case, the RIRs and ISPs would ignore it. The /48 doctrine crashed and burned among the RIRs and ISPs some years ago; 3177bis recognizes this reality. Brian > > Yours, > Joel > > Brian E Carpenter wrote: >> On 2010-08-21 08:23, Fred Baker wrote: >>> On Aug 20, 2010, at 12:49 PM, Eric Gray wrote: >>> >>>> Having multiple chunk sizes seems to me to be a recipe for in- >>>> efficient use of address space in general. >>> speaking for myself, I think a one-size-fits-all model has the same >>> effect. In my home, today, I have two LANs; I could easily imagine >>> expanding that to half a dozen or even a dozen in various scenarios. >>> Giving me a /48 is a waste of address space - it's at least 4096 >>> times as much as I need, and would give my upstream the ability to >>> address 4095 more homes like mine if they were to allocate /60's. To >>> the extent that they are paying their RIR for address space, er, >>> membership, it wastes their money and increases my monthly payment. >>> I think there is a great reason to suggest that access and transit >>> networks to offer their downstreams /48, /52, /56, and /60 options at >>> various costs. It makes business sense for them, allows them to >>> reasonably recover their costs without burdening the downstreams, >>> allows for downstreams to number their networks in ways they like and >>> reasonably move up to shorter prefixes when they need to, and (since >>> I didn't mention /64) ensures that the smallest users - >>> residential/SOHO - have options for routing within the home as >>> appropriate. >> >> Another +1 to Fred. I was originally a strong advocate of Eric's view, >> in fact I take credit/blame for a lot of RFC3177, but I believe that >> experience, especially the remarkable success of CIDR in controlling >> the growth of PA routes for IPv4, and the acquired wisdom of the RIRs >> in administering CIDR, have shown that there is no efficiency benefit >> in fixed chunks. >> >> Brian >> _______________________________________________ >> Int-area mailing list >> Int-area@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/int-area >> > From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Aug 20 14:47:22 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A0E43A68DE for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 14:47:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -109.139 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-109.139 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.644, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, RDNS_NONE=0.1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vMBPWxbqnQMy for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 14:47:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0AD3F3A68D4 for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 14:47:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OmZNY-000Aov-MO for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 21:44:00 +0000 Received: from [171.68.10.87] (helo=sj-iport-5.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OmZNV-000AoK-AH for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 21:43:57 +0000 Authentication-Results: sj-iport-5.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AvsEAEaUbkyrR7H+/2dsb2JhbACgOXGfaJtXhTcEhDSFPw X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.56,242,1280707200"; d="scan'208";a="243165658" Received: from sj-core-2.cisco.com ([171.71.177.254]) by sj-iport-5.cisco.com with ESMTP; 20 Aug 2010 21:43:53 +0000 Received: from stealth-10-32-244-218.cisco.com (stealth-10-32-244-218.cisco.com [10.32.244.218]) by sj-core-2.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o7KLhgMa026219; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 21:43:44 GMT Received: from [127.0.0.1] by stealth-10-32-244-218.cisco.com (PGP Universal service); Fri, 20 Aug 2010 14:43:52 -0700 X-PGP-Universal: processed; by stealth-10-32-244-218.cisco.com on Fri, 20 Aug 2010 14:43:52 -0700 Subject: Re: [Int-area] Review of draft-narten-ipv6-3177bis-48boundary-05 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1081) From: Fred Baker In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 14:43:36 -0700 Cc: IPv6 Operations , int-area@ietf.org Message-Id: References: To: draft-narten-ipv6-3177bis-48boundary@tools.ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1081) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: Thomas et al: Let me relay and comment on something Tony, Marla, and I discussed = (Jason, I would mention you, but you and I didn't actually talk about = this :-). One of the important points of RFC 3177 is in the opening statements: The technical principles that apply to address allocation seek to balance healthy conservation practices and wisdom with a certain ease of access... The IETF makes no comment on business issues or relationships. However, in general, we observe that technical delegation policy can have strong business impacts. A strong requirement of the address delegation plan is that it not be predicated on or unduly bias business relationships or models. This mirrors comments made in CIDR documents and in the CIDR discussion = to the effect that "gee, it would be Really Nice if we could aggregate = announcements", and which came out in code words to the RIRs and ISPs = saying "gee whiz, guys, would you consider being conservative in your = allocations and your aggregation policy wink wink nudge nudge", = recognizing their already-ongoing efforts in those directions and = expressing approval of them. These statements appear to be absent from = draft-narten-ipv6-3177bis-48boundary. Tony/Marla/Jason have a draft before the house, draft-azinger-cidrv6. = It's fundamental point is "gee, it would be Really Nice if we could = aggregate announcements", and suggests that provider-allocated address = space is a good thing. It responds to RIR behaviors in allocation of PI = address space, and asks that the RIRs tighten up the rules. Tony's = observation is that the IETF has made no such statement to the RIRs = regarding that, and such a statement might have value. If we're going to replace a document entitled "IAB/IESG Recommendations = on IPv6 Address Allocations to Sites", it might be worthwhile actually = updating the recommendations made on allocations to sites, and make a = clear statement to the effect that "we make no pretense of telling RIRs = or their members how to run their businesses, but we would humbly = request that they consider the amount of money they spend on new routers = and new memory every year, the amount of money spent on heat and heat = dissipation, and seriously consider allocating address space in a way = that promotes prefix aggregation in BGP routing." I could imagine, and = would welcome, a response from the RIRs of the form "we would really = appreciate consideration of an architecture that would address both ISP = concerns about the size of the route table and edge network concerns = about multihoming complexity and independence from their ISP". Thought for the day... Fred On Aug 20, 2010, at 11:47 AM, Tony Li wrote: > Hi all, >=20 > This is a solicited review of draft-narten-ipv6-3177bis-48boundary-05. >=20 > History: The IAB & IESG made some recommendations for v6 addressing in = RFC 3177. In particular, the recommended the assignment of /48 to a = site. >=20 > This draft reconsiders that recommendation, and argues that more = flexibility would be reasonable. >=20 > 1) The draft retracts the recommendation that /128's can be allocated = to sites. The text here is clear about sites, but could possibly call = out the distinction between a site and a host. Clearly /128 allocations = to a single host are a necessary alternative. Consider the case of a = hot spot service provider. Allocating a /48 or even a /64 to each = laptop in the coffee shop is not necessary or sane practice. >=20 > 2) The draft calls out a specific motivation that sites should get = enough address space so that they do not feel compelled to use NAT. = While this is fine in principle, the pragmatics here are hard to defend. = A site can easily make unjustified claims to arbitrary amounts of = address space. It is unreasonable to expect that every RIR and LIR is = going to make detailed investigations for every single address space = request, so there will be established policies for address space = assignment, possibly with economic disincentives for over-allocation. = However, this will not prevent some end-sites wanting more, especially = to avoid additional costs. Thus, some sites will still feel compelled = to use NAT. We should avoid the hubris that we can dictate business = practices. >=20 > 3) The draft includes a discussion about the rationale of RFC 3177's = argument in favor of /48 to simplify renumbering. It is certainly true = that renumbering from one prefix to another is greatly simplified if the = prefixes are the same size. The important point, missed in both 3177 = and this draft, is that this only argues that any given site get the = same sized prefix. This does not imply that it needs to be a /48 for = all sites. Nor is there ANY benefit from that. For example, if a site = had a /57 (bad for other reasons), then having another /57 to renumber = into satisfies this requirement. /48 is not necessary, nor is any other = fixed size. >=20 > 4) The draft seems to shy away from making clear replacement = recommendations. While it recommends that policy take certain points = into consideration, this seems like mere rhetoric and lacking in any = substance. I strongly recommend that the draft make real = recommendations and very clearly call those out. If nothing else, the = draft needs to clearly and explicitly vacate the previous /48 = recommendation. This seems to be done in the Introduction, which seems = somewhat odd. >=20 > 5) The draft misses the opportunity to call for work in v6 = renumbering. The fact of the matter is that sooner or later, sites will = need to renumber. Even given adequate address space, there are other = compelling events (e.g., corporate acquisitions) that drive renumbering. = There's much work to do here. If we make the assumption that = renumbering WILL be easy (and make it come to pass), then it's = reasonable to argue that renumbering into a larger prefix is easy and = thus we can be more conservative in initial site addressing. >=20 > Regards, > Tony Li, Ph.D. > Cisco Fellow > Cisco Systems, Inc. >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Int-area mailing list > Int-area@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/int-area From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Aug 20 15:10:15 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FDF13A699E for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 15:10:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.4 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.4 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.905, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BIZ3NGVbzefg for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 15:10:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E11EC3A69B2 for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 15:10:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OmZka-000EDB-QI for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 22:07:48 +0000 Received: from [209.85.212.52] (helo=mail-vw0-f52.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OmZkY-000ECs-BM for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 22:07:46 +0000 Received: by vws14 with SMTP id 14so4885479vws.11 for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 15:07:45 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from :organization:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=nyvxoV7zaoObSJyzAKuWtXt7K4GZM+r6OgdJmgk8DwU=; b=PWc3tR3EWO9FjSuBW6oPgdJZOI7u5ZHtbUzPvm4A5dxOKMcRPoC5qIzAVVjgfb5s42 5etBuQIA133vUJKviCN7Osx5O44NJ7kMM9AjuRSV/cSVY25c+pqNkTxwyVcLJXr99Y3B 1+z/XBZpVqHvbeYLnCi7ehNoypY9JVxZ5fGok= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:organization:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc :subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=bHph8IUlk0RRaXV6i1W0H9ijOpJgChCpMrZsmwkQU7m1Xf/VMKieydjUhBz6ekTPnF 0c6z0q8uRpe+DE2I8+ofm/aLBdF7ymv/lIZbCGgiI3pJhrFB+yYZ9VWq8QWAKCrUP0XI 4/tBlXDdgzFkzZIhLGFOw3NYToCg0w4h8Bjw4= Received: by 10.220.61.6 with SMTP id r6mr1254578vch.146.1282342065510; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 15:07:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.1.1.4] ([121.98.142.15]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id w1sm1964975vbl.8.2010.08.20.15.07.42 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Fri, 20 Aug 2010 15:07:45 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4C6EFCA9.4060409@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 10:07:37 +1200 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Windows/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Cameron Byrne CC: Fred Baker , v6ops@ops.ietf.org, kurtis@kurtis.pp.se, rbonica@juniper.net Subject: Votes against what? [ draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC] References: <018544C5-8D1E-412A-B6E4-F12623E66366@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: On 2010-08-21 04:08, Cameron Byrne wrote: ... > 3. Squarely face the issue of a fragmented internet where there is > ipv6.google.com, ipv6.t-mobile.com, www.ipv6.cisco.com > www.v6.facebook.com as well as aaaa whitelist that Yahoo and Google > are pushing. I believe the reality of these sites and the DNS > whitelist are more votes against DS. Actually they are votes against *broken* DS at the subscriber end of the wire - typically, that means a subscriber whose host is under the illusion that it has IPv6 connectivity when it doesn't. They are definitely not votes against ISPs that have done a proper dual stack deployment, since their subscribers don't have illusory connectivity. Which means they are actually votes against ISPs that have *not* deployed DS. We would definitely not be having this conversation if all ISPs had deployed a dual stack backbone already. You're completely correct that the draft should clearly define where it's talking about an ISP core and where it's talking about the access network. Brian From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Aug 20 15:50:38 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 734CD3A68A0 for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 15:50:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.248 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.248 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.811, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_NET=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id up+M9MuqkilK for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 15:50:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8DAAE3A6818 for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 15:50:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OmaMF-000J0g-3d for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 22:46:43 +0000 Received: from [76.96.62.40] (helo=qmta04.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OmaMC-000J0O-Ka for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 22:46:40 +0000 Received: from omta20.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.62.71]) by qmta04.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net with comcast id wm5G1e00A1YDfWL54mmgr1; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 22:46:40 +0000 Received: from dhcp-171-70-244-118.cisco.com ([171.70.244.118]) by omta20.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net with comcast id wmm31e0062ZzSm33gmm9No; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 22:46:35 +0000 Subject: Re: [Int-area] Review of draft-narten-ipv6-3177bis-48boundary-05 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1081) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Tony Li In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 15:45:59 -0700 Cc: Brian E Carpenter , IPv6 Operations , "int-area@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <188C11C5-CDBA-4213-83AC-453AE06ADAD5@cisco.com> <4C6EE713.9080805@gmail.com> <4C6EE9D9.2090003@joelhalpern.com> <4C6EEC30.5010409@gmail.com> To: Eric Gray X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1081) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: Hi Eric, > The second is that they can differentiate themselves by offering > address allocation sizes that do not align well with other providers, = in > an attempt to lock-in customers who will find that they can anticipate > administrative head-aches and extra costs if they ever decide they = want=20 > to go with a different service provider. This is probably a bad = thing. Alternate service providers can then respond by matching the odd address = space allocation, or providing their next quantum up. This hurts = addressing efficiency slightly, but is unlikely to be a real deterrent. Regards, Tony From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Aug 20 15:52:39 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 674C83A68EA for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 15:52:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.551 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.551 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.656, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, J_CHICKENPOX_24=0.6, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JhLe+0PRhMtH for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 15:52:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D8CD3A68A0 for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 15:52:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OmaRP-000Jcv-5e for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 22:52:03 +0000 Received: from [209.85.161.180] (helo=mail-gx0-f180.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OmaRJ-000JcJ-QZ for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 22:51:57 +0000 Received: by gxk22 with SMTP id 22so2176517gxk.11 for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 15:51:57 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:received:in-reply-to :references:date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=AqW+Y1PJ4oETkiPmYSrQcigV8YEJKM9c/CJL7VyAAYw=; b=quZoinedWbSJU24TG05Q+FFLNXl0PXWoy7OwTb4QKeWDMSNnqzRLpSoPegBPM9sHdJ zwnqdX7vCpwbvUWoQKFQ00v0GShOqCkVafhW268WXrkUgP5dXeZDR03zDRFNnJwZPB14 X9ayxtFFoHzBHfaswsGPgJ9TXtLpv9T5VvFOY= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=mzCQ/rIb2mo0lYEP2e83xEmpdBc5rHNmpUzhFikO67DOzXrRBIHDAiaPzOhK0EBXkB fjKIKybNrbjPAZUhVjDrZuU++6itl70mrttrcmONJe+RXojjoNtaQpsnvt5YRhkfFHsK 2GTEOW+8yn0qnZbAPLOGswmIIIiMbgWLeC7Vw= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.151.63.26 with SMTP id q26mr2706861ybk.193.1282344717256; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 15:51:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.12.2 with HTTP; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 15:51:57 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <018544C5-8D1E-412A-B6E4-F12623E66366@cisco.com> <1E46BEA0-85C4-44B0-B76B-29CBB7515ACF@cisco.com> Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 15:51:57 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC From: Cameron Byrne To: Mikael Abrahamsson Cc: Fred Baker , IPv6 v6ops , Kurt Erik Lindqvist , Ron Bonica , v4tov6transition@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 12:50 PM, Mikael Abrahamsson wro= te: > On Fri, 20 Aug 2010, Cameron Byrne wrote: > >> And, as i have pointed out before in various forums, today's 3G networks >> require 2x the signalling and packet core cost for dual stack users (2x >> bearers, 2x mobility events, 2x many things ...). =A0Yes, the costs chan= ge in >> LTE .... LTE will not be mainstream before IPv4 Exhaust. > > I would like to question the 2x cost. > > Yes, multi-bearer per user license cost money, so does handling 2x number= s > of bearer, but the number of packets isn't going to be 2x so actual packe= t > moving hw won't be even close to 2x cost. More license, more > HLR/MME/SPGW/GGSN/SGSN signalling, but not more packets. Agreed. The 2x cost is really just the packet core ... which is of course a lot of money to double for no tangible benefit ..... talk about no business case .... And, still have numbering issues, customer experience is the same as IPv4-only + NAT44 and approximately the same as IPv6-only + NAT64 > > I also don't really see how LTE changes things dramatically in this aspec= t, > to enable roaming we're going to be stuck at GTPv1 bearers for the > forseeable future (IMHO), so we're still going to have to do 2x PDP conte= xt > for users with IPv4 and IPv6 dual stack. > If you do dual-stack services, yes. The model i am driving for is IPv6-only when in-network and IPv4-only when roaming. I believe this is the practical approach given that billing for IPv6 roaming will be very slow. > It might even be that ds.lite with ipv6 only to the phone makes more sens= e > here because I'd imagine that enables roaming with single PDP context/bea= rer > instead of multiple, and I'd imagine the roaming network doesn't really c= are > if the user has IPv4 or IPv6? I'm not a roaming expert though, might be > wrong. > IMHO, i don't see a good fit for DSlite on traditional mobile handsets, and that i believe was the conclusion of the 3GPP-IETF meeting in San Fran. Perhap there is a good fit for DSlite + mobile hotspots (MiFi). > -- > Mikael Abrahamsson =A0 =A0email: swmike@swm.pp.se > From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Aug 20 16:03:06 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E03623A67FB for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 16:03:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -109.136 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-109.136 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.641, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, RDNS_NONE=0.1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0qANcjcUTWHM for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 16:03:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C70243A68AF for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 16:03:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OmaZn-000KkV-QV for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 23:00:43 +0000 Received: from [171.68.10.87] (helo=sj-iport-5.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OmaZl-000Kk9-09 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 23:00:41 +0000 Authentication-Results: sj-iport-5.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AvsEAAqmbkyrR7Ht/2dsb2JhbACgOnGfOJtRhTcEhDSFPw X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.56,242,1280707200"; d="scan'208";a="243197217" Received: from sj-core-1.cisco.com ([171.71.177.237]) by sj-iport-5.cisco.com with ESMTP; 20 Aug 2010 23:00:38 +0000 Received: from stealth-10-32-244-218.cisco.com (stealth-10-32-244-218.cisco.com [10.32.244.218]) by sj-core-1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o7KN0UFh003888; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 23:00:32 GMT Received: from [127.0.0.1] by stealth-10-32-244-218.cisco.com (PGP Universal service); Fri, 20 Aug 2010 16:00:37 -0700 X-PGP-Universal: processed; by stealth-10-32-244-218.cisco.com on Fri, 20 Aug 2010 16:00:37 -0700 Subject: Re: [Int-area] Review of draft-narten-ipv6-3177bis-48boundary-05 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1081) From: Fred Baker In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 16:00:24 -0700 Cc: Brian E Carpenter , IPv6 Operations , "int-area@ietf.org" Message-Id: References: <188C11C5-CDBA-4213-83AC-453AE06ADAD5@cisco.com> <4C6EE713.9080805@gmail.com> To: Eric Gray X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1081) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: On Aug 20, 2010, at 2:55 PM, Eric Gray wrote: > Following the CIDR model for IPv6 seems to allow for as > many as (on the order of) 7-10 times as many possibly usable > address allocation sizes. Well, yes, saying that "you can pick any length you like" gives the = address allocation authorities, at least in theory, 64 orders of = magnitude. There is a line of reasoning, which I subscribe to, that all of those = options really aren't needed, and that there are human factors reasons = to prefer prefix lengths on nibble (hex digit) boundaries. Not that = allocations like 192.0.2.20/30 are impossible to grok - they're not - = but if we have the opportunity to simplify things, why not? One comment that comes to mind is a recent conversation with my son. He = works for a company that makes radio-controlled model airplanes, the = kind that have a 66 foot wingspan and shoot missiles. The planes are = full of computers, and no they don't ask the DNS root to translate = names. If you're in one of those computers and need to talk with another = one, you need to know its IP address. So he is used to being in computer = A and logging into computer B as 192.0.2.17 or whatever. He and I spoke a few weeks about, and he asked "Dad, when you guys were = designing IPv6, did you think at all about how LONG those addresses = were?" ta-dum! Now ask yourself about being in my daughter's network (women enter her = home as the girl-next-door and leave beautiful), telling her that she = can use anything she likes in 2001:0db8:2775:1234/62, and having her = notice that the address of something or another is = 2001:0db8:2775:1235... In IPv4, I said "deal with it, you have to be = somewhat technical". In IPv6, I would like to not have to go there. It's = not her expertise, and she doesn't ask me to cut/color her hair either. So, yes, I tend to think that the common rabble should deal with = addresses that break on nibble boundaries. That has nothing to do with RIRs or service providers, mind you; they = are often "somewhat technical". Within their networks I expect them to = do what makes sense to them, and I regard myself more as their student = than their teacher...= From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Aug 20 16:09:57 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 682823A6818 for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 16:09:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.853 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.853 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.358, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vgh-1CvEIjtz for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 16:09:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 645533A68DE for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 16:09:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Omafm-000La6-L2 for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 23:06:54 +0000 Received: from [209.85.160.180] (helo=mail-gy0-f180.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Omafj-000LZ7-Id for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 23:06:51 +0000 Received: by gye5 with SMTP id 5so2179622gye.11 for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 16:06:51 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:received:in-reply-to :references:date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=AbfZrRMHQTeuh3dPyf/8ppMrcMemYW3g/lNtTqwtwR4=; b=UoXbUMequsjZCkoYb+fj6T8ptFS9J4Wi3SOR5yFfdutG7RXjuWcQzCbYbdD/fabCj5 3wjMNyGSKqNBONB6qReecItWvWEbQMTh7eE2EvD0JnIjkumCk/mFCuun9Ayl3WVj7oHR R0BbJDH4DbuW9/lbzLO+GNSIyr8nsDbGui0Qo= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=t3Dr89UgCHim5fBw/JMJLe/I0uMuRXapJhaYDxYoEfJaiwT6swzP2Hy+LAogK8ZZGP w6XYkOd2bDG+QnVvXJpgVQhdpj3qw6J6dka2UvKIlq6B9YWFItfc5DdEkaTQmqpbO4fp 7iG6uhFrX7uvCIzOuVq7HukGXO0cWcM3hJRjw= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.150.69.32 with SMTP id r32mr2896876yba.107.1282345610896; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 16:06:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.12.2 with HTTP; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 16:06:50 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <018544C5-8D1E-412A-B6E4-F12623E66366@cisco.com> <1E46BEA0-85C4-44B0-B76B-29CBB7515ACF@cisco.com> Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 16:06:50 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC From: Cameron Byrne To: Fred Baker Cc: IPv6 v6ops , Kurt Erik Lindqvist , Ron Bonica , v4tov6transition@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 1:41 PM, Fred Baker wrote: > > On Aug 20, 2010, at 12:10 PM, Cameron Byrne wrote: > >> IPv6-only host must emerge as the edge grows (mobile ..., M2M, ...) > > I certainly agree with that. Understand that mobile handsets are already = and increasingly both IPv4 and IPv6 capable. The issue is in the network, a= nd it is in the applications that those handsets use. The applications like= to call gethostbyname() instead of getaddrinfo(), and as a result are IPv4= -aware instead of being network layer agnostic. That was Hui Deng's point i= n the two 3GPP/IETF joint workshops and in the pnat discussion in behave. T= his document grew out of a powerpoint presentation, pointed to as an inform= ative reference, that I gave at the first of those workshops, and summarize= s both that talk and Jari's experience using Ericsson's NAT64 solution at h= ome. > Just focusing on mobile, here ... Jari states IPv6-only works well for mobile. I believe one of his docs (Google preso) states it approaches 100% functionality. PNAT did not achieve much support and was not advanced (right?), despite a strong effort from Hui. Like IPv4 literals, i believe the general issues in mobile apps are trivial. I presented my experience at the Google conference. Notice not many apps are impacted https://sites.google.com/site/ipv6implementors/2010/agenda/13_Byrne_T-Mobil= e_IPv6GoogleMeeting.pdf My FUT users, along with my own experience, is that very few apps fail when ipv6-only http://groups.google.com/group/tmoipv6beta/browse_thread/thread/6fc0633f031= 3b588 I understand that the desktop space, and in particular games and skype, have problems with IPv6-only. But, mobile is different. The SDKs for Apple, Symbian, and Android have done a good job at forcing the developers to be IP version agnostic..... which means most apps are IPv6 capable by default, not by app designers own volition. > If I were king, and note that I am not at this instant wearing my shiny w= orking group chair crown, I'm wearing my dusty author's beret, gethostbynam= e would disappear and applications that use it would be given the option of= complaining to /dev/null or fixing their code. At some point, maybe the 3G= vendors could help us out there... As far as i can tell, for the most part, your desire has been achieved. If you believe otherwise, please contact me off list to find out how you can join the IPv6-only beta. Cameron From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Aug 20 16:18:13 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC56F3A68F2 for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 16:18:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.382 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.382 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.887, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gBp4qIPNpsNi for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 16:18:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 343823A6832 for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 16:18:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Omaoh-000MqN-FF for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 23:16:07 +0000 Received: from [209.85.216.52] (helo=mail-qw0-f52.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Omaod-000Mpi-Mz for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 23:16:04 +0000 Received: by qwj8 with SMTP id 8so4677024qwj.11 for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 16:16:02 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from :organization:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=zONzgMobOXwvivQqkOd4EpSVZjdMRHnyoObLoYjc9C0=; b=IKFkp1CSGGy4uOBhAjHKpzAZ/eQhDEH6ZUm7QLPXYfGSbGAn6CjrHQ1+OAk5tbbMg0 e8LTRVBo8SVUF6RF8aXNC4YE8OOLhKrEfkr+b6fKVquEAMZRcw21eQXkFfXajCUPfvwf n7OJ7yO9ofiMctMpCF6DCNsFXjW3fujkX/pU0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:organization:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc :subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=PPxAdZ9JxMxWpqB2hEKa5s/iI+PtVsUQXnHII4SI4SftyGa8guRIOsvKOOLoMMFYIS ErdsttvpjKkPSPLWjjY7gKKZVKWkSPzX+4CwilwgFmQEvcJ8GrKFQp4wm2mncvEI9KEE MzX3wUoQ38g2PFz0xerW/qTI5uUO/yQ51UDLA= Received: by 10.229.126.222 with SMTP id d30mr944478qcs.223.1282346162779; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 16:16:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.1.1.4] ([121.98.142.15]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id r36sm3826868qcs.3.2010.08.20.16.15.59 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Fri, 20 Aug 2010 16:16:02 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4C6F0CAA.6030103@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 11:15:54 +1200 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Windows/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Fred Baker CC: draft-narten-ipv6-3177bis-48boundary@tools.ietf.org, IPv6 Operations , int-area@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Int-area] Review of draft-narten-ipv6-3177bis-48boundary-05 References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: +1 Why am I agreeing with Fred so much today? Regards Brian On 2010-08-21 09:43, Fred Baker wrote: > Thomas et al: > > Let me relay and comment on something Tony, Marla, and I discussed (Jason, I would mention you, but you and I didn't actually talk about this :-). > > One of the important points of RFC 3177 is in the opening statements: > > The technical principles that apply to address allocation seek to > balance healthy conservation practices and wisdom with a certain ease > of access... > > The IETF makes no comment on business issues or relationships. > However, in general, we observe that technical delegation policy can > have strong business impacts. A strong requirement of the address > delegation plan is that it not be predicated on or unduly bias > business relationships or models. > > This mirrors comments made in CIDR documents and in the CIDR discussion to the effect that "gee, it would be Really Nice if we could aggregate announcements", and which came out in code words to the RIRs and ISPs saying "gee whiz, guys, would you consider being conservative in your allocations and your aggregation policy wink wink nudge nudge", recognizing their already-ongoing efforts in those directions and expressing approval of them. > > These statements appear to be absent from draft-narten-ipv6-3177bis-48boundary. > > Tony/Marla/Jason have a draft before the house, draft-azinger-cidrv6. It's fundamental point is "gee, it would be Really Nice if we could aggregate announcements", and suggests that provider-allocated address space is a good thing. It responds to RIR behaviors in allocation of PI address space, and asks that the RIRs tighten up the rules. Tony's observation is that the IETF has made no such statement to the RIRs regarding that, and such a statement might have value. > > If we're going to replace a document entitled "IAB/IESG Recommendations on IPv6 Address Allocations to Sites", it might be worthwhile actually updating the recommendations made on allocations to sites, and make a clear statement to the effect that "we make no pretense of telling RIRs or their members how to run their businesses, but we would humbly request that they consider the amount of money they spend on new routers and new memory every year, the amount of money spent on heat and heat dissipation, and seriously consider allocating address space in a way that promotes prefix aggregation in BGP routing." I could imagine, and would welcome, a response from the RIRs of the form "we would really appreciate consideration of an architecture that would address both ISP concerns about the size of the route table and edge network concerns about multihoming complexity and independence from their ISP". > > Thought for the day... > Fred > > > On Aug 20, 2010, at 11:47 AM, Tony Li wrote: >> Hi all, >> >> This is a solicited review of draft-narten-ipv6-3177bis-48boundary-05. >> >> History: The IAB & IESG made some recommendations for v6 addressing in RFC 3177. In particular, the recommended the assignment of /48 to a site. >> >> This draft reconsiders that recommendation, and argues that more flexibility would be reasonable. >> >> 1) The draft retracts the recommendation that /128's can be allocated to sites. The text here is clear about sites, but could possibly call out the distinction between a site and a host. Clearly /128 allocations to a single host are a necessary alternative. Consider the case of a hot spot service provider. Allocating a /48 or even a /64 to each laptop in the coffee shop is not necessary or sane practice. >> >> 2) The draft calls out a specific motivation that sites should get enough address space so that they do not feel compelled to use NAT. While this is fine in principle, the pragmatics here are hard to defend. A site can easily make unjustified claims to arbitrary amounts of address space. It is unreasonable to expect that every RIR and LIR is going to make detailed investigations for every single address space request, so there will be established policies for address space assignment, possibly with economic disincentives for over-allocation. However, this will not prevent some end-sites wanting more, especially to avoid additional costs. Thus, some sites will still feel compelled to use NAT. We should avoid the hubris that we can dictate business practices. >> >> 3) The draft includes a discussion about the rationale of RFC 3177's argument in favor of /48 to simplify renumbering. It is certainly true that renumbering from one prefix to another is greatly simplified if the prefixes are the same size. The important point, missed in both 3177 and this draft, is that this only argues that any given site get the same sized prefix. This does not imply that it needs to be a /48 for all sites. Nor is there ANY benefit from that. For example, if a site had a /57 (bad for other reasons), then having another /57 to renumber into satisfies this requirement. /48 is not necessary, nor is any other fixed size. >> >> 4) The draft seems to shy away from making clear replacement recommendations. While it recommends that policy take certain points into consideration, this seems like mere rhetoric and lacking in any substance. I strongly recommend that the draft make real recommendations and very clearly call those out. If nothing else, the draft needs to clearly and explicitly vacate the previous /48 recommendation. This seems to be done in the Introduction, which seems somewhat odd. >> >> 5) The draft misses the opportunity to call for work in v6 renumbering. The fact of the matter is that sooner or later, sites will need to renumber. Even given adequate address space, there are other compelling events (e.g., corporate acquisitions) that drive renumbering. There's much work to do here. If we make the assumption that renumbering WILL be easy (and make it come to pass), then it's reasonable to argue that renumbering into a larger prefix is easy and thus we can be more conservative in initial site addressing. >> >> Regards, >> Tony Li, Ph.D. >> Cisco Fellow >> Cisco Systems, Inc. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Int-area mailing list >> Int-area@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/int-area > > _______________________________________________ > Int-area mailing list > Int-area@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/int-area > From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Aug 20 16:18:27 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2066F3A6832 for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 16:18:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.358 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.358 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.863, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QOco88hwTwaE for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 16:18:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BD443A6898 for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 16:18:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OmaqB-000N1I-KR for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 23:17:39 +0000 Received: from [209.85.216.173] (helo=mail-qy0-f173.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Omaq9-000N11-Kb for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 23:17:37 +0000 Received: by qyk5 with SMTP id 5so1095644qyk.11 for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 16:17:36 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from :organization:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=JY5/X/vYOcY5e13dLl2pfYKiwffqW7sjkPZd+FITdZg=; b=v2eyvJlKlh4LrqbhTZsG8sb5lkvZEIAqAmaC46/VxnsGJLrO8UlFaincUYNvkif+kN b/2HOUg4dInvjubKs9S48Y5V/8gLK6GLpwA2FCZuzjCcnHVBv7xIqAQ2Fna5HTAqvD3k 6AHTvi5yXuiSHbEJDoNxvIBJUWI1uMm0CX5ts= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:organization:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc :subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=iH1BiycYhOR/Ey7F/fw7f6ybYQ5qY2EkSnTNmAj4a7eVj8lnacIXLqLnvaZbS0Vohz anieEQKAx8Pu7e4mX8gnYmVI/HK1m3XPsXNAEtN1T1ROaB29b9x2gcSj1Wp652hMcCLN tC+YbGHTRaMHK1q5l5t6a+5VFJgjUZqW4khWw= Received: by 10.229.141.75 with SMTP id l11mr355529qcu.154.1282346256683; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 16:17:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.1.1.4] ([121.98.142.15]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id e6sm3828683qcr.5.2010.08.20.16.17.33 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Fri, 20 Aug 2010 16:17:36 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4C6F0D09.9060107@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 11:17:29 +1200 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Windows/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tony Li CC: Eric Gray , IPv6 Operations , "int-area@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Int-area] Review of draft-narten-ipv6-3177bis-48boundary-05 References: <188C11C5-CDBA-4213-83AC-453AE06ADAD5@cisco.com> <4C6EE713.9080805@gmail.com> <4C6EE9D9.2090003@joelhalpern.com> <4C6EEC30.5010409@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: On 2010-08-21 10:45, Tony Li wrote: > Hi Eric, > > >> The second is that they can differentiate themselves by offering >> address allocation sizes that do not align well with other providers, in >> an attempt to lock-in customers who will find that they can anticipate >> administrative head-aches and extra costs if they ever decide they want >> to go with a different service provider. This is probably a bad thing. > > > Alternate service providers can then respond by matching the odd address space allocation, or providing their next quantum up. This hurts addressing efficiency slightly, but is unlikely to be a real deterrent. Exactly. The market will provide. Of course, I agree with Fred that we should stick to nibble boundaries. Brian From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Aug 20 16:48:27 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA1603A6403 for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 16:48:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.869 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.869 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.374, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JqbYMe0GbHhL for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 16:48:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7F543A68CD for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 16:48:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OmbHf-0000oV-4z for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 23:46:03 +0000 Received: from [209.85.160.180] (helo=mail-gy0-f180.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OmbHc-0000nt-Dn for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 23:46:00 +0000 Received: by gye5 with SMTP id 5so2195264gye.11 for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 16:45:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:received:in-reply-to :references:date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=fjuOQnbQom1+211IKhJ59TtQyASsJI3tMbtJ3VmE9kw=; b=upoiGT/m31M8Dq9FcKBUGuQ4mWNutv69MPM6hX6EsnjmshUeiFUfT1654K+4ahVQp1 Fm6E0WAmxYFfrCxSj7U42ReVLn3xlgiM1ect59UPqHcifbJRSLFnH8e8Z2ei5xHJeCwr bIA6WaMoxyRwtd4P8eY5xVpMEKQYIX4WZzjgc= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=yCtggL7S3G6D7XgZlcdIZ8jXLmtUJcTbeaRPhw6pFUWzE9w5mvCaoMxbTG1fyWADw0 Tw91V0sE2r1sXga3cHB6qoNWIQHSbTGXpWF/yAg1o1lhwHf9Ls4mcltNl+fgRXJ4YEDw oPpRx4qdyAWpRm59MubHrsEtTZXJcjpHvrK9w= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.150.69.32 with SMTP id r32mr2921942yba.107.1282347959513; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 16:45:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.12.2 with HTTP; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 16:45:59 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 16:45:59 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [v4tov6transition] draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC From: Cameron Byrne To: "Yiu L. Lee" Cc: Mikael Abrahamsson , IPv6 v6ops , Ron Bonica , v4tov6transition@ietf.org, Kurt Erik Lindqvist Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 4:37 PM, Yiu L. Lee wro= te: > >> Agreed. =A0The 2x cost is really just the packet core ... which is of >> course a lot of money to double for no tangible benefit ..... talk >> about no business case .... And, still have numbering issues, customer >> experience is the same as IPv4-only + NAT44 and approximately the same >> as IPv6-only + NAT64 >> > Life cycle of mobile equipments could be every 2-3 years, but life cycle = of > consumer electronics could be 5+ years. Consider many large TVs with > Internet service selling today are still running IPv4-only, fixed line > operators must prepare to support them in foreseeable future. > Depends what box you are talking about, but our accountants like 5+ years for gear.... GSM gear is still around and not going anywhere for a long time. Other network functions, especially NAT and stateful IP stuff expires quicker. I can say that mobile phone lifecycle is between 9 and 24 months.... which is quick. > That said, I am not saying an operator must build a dual-stack core netwo= rk, > there are technologies such as DS-lite and Softwire Mesh available to run= a > pure IPv6 core network with dual-stack edge. All I am saying is the custo= mer > experience of IPv4-only + NAT444 could be the same as IPv6-only + NAT64, = but > the technologies and plan to offer these service are very different. Agreed. 3GPP mobile can do native v6 easy. Other network types, not so e= asy. From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Aug 20 18:02:04 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8621B3A679F for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 18:02:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -109.683 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-109.683 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.188, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, RDNS_NONE=0.1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LFGVyorw0oji for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 18:02:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45BD93A68E7 for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 18:02:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OmcO9-0009Dm-Vv for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Sat, 21 Aug 2010 00:56:50 +0000 Received: from [171.71.176.70] (helo=sj-iport-1.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OmcO6-0009Cf-JU for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Sat, 21 Aug 2010 00:56:46 +0000 Authentication-Results: sj-iport-1.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.56,242,1280707200"; d="scan'208";a="354148324" Received: from sj-core-4.cisco.com ([171.68.223.138]) by sj-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 21 Aug 2010 00:56:46 +0000 Received: from dwingWS (sjc-vpn3-708.cisco.com [10.21.66.196]) by sj-core-4.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o7L0uj7L017311; Sat, 21 Aug 2010 00:56:45 GMT From: "Dan Wing" To: "'Cameron Byrne'" , "'Fred Baker'" Cc: "'IPv6 v6ops'" , "'Ron Bonica'" , , "'Kurt Erik Lindqvist'" References: <018544C5-8D1E-412A-B6E4-F12623E66366@cisco.com> <1E46BEA0-85C4-44B0-B76B-29CBB7515ACF@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: Subject: RE: [v4tov6transition] draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 17:56:45 -0700 Message-ID: <14a601cb40cb$ba698f50$2f3cadf0$@com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0 Thread-Index: ActAvGHb6dRUbOW6Q82puU5GF4oMkgADrApQ Content-Language: en-us Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: v4tov6transition-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:v4tov6transition- > bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Cameron Byrne > Sent: Friday, August 20, 2010 4:07 PM > To: Fred Baker > Cc: IPv6 v6ops; Ron Bonica; v4tov6transition@ietf.org; Kurt Erik > Lindqvist > Subject: Re: [v4tov6transition] draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines > WGLC > > On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 1:41 PM, Fred Baker wrote: > > > > On Aug 20, 2010, at 12:10 PM, Cameron Byrne wrote: > > > >> IPv6-only host must emerge as the edge grows (mobile ..., M2M, ...) > > > > I certainly agree with that. Understand that mobile handsets are > already and increasingly both IPv4 and IPv6 capable. The issue is in > the network, and it is in the applications that those handsets use. The > applications like to call gethostbyname() instead of getaddrinfo(), and > as a result are IPv4-aware instead of being network layer agnostic. > That was Hui Deng's point in the two 3GPP/IETF joint workshops and in > the pnat discussion in behave. This document grew out of a powerpoint > presentation, pointed to as an informative reference, that I gave at > the first of those workshops, and summarizes both that talk and Jari's > experience using Ericsson's NAT64 solution at home. > > > > Just focusing on mobile, here ... Jari states IPv6-only works well for > mobile. I believe one of his docs (Google preso) states it > approaches 100% functionality. > > PNAT did not achieve much support and was not advanced (right?), > despite a strong effort from Hui. The in-host IPv4->IPv6 translation aspect of PNAT is alive, http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-huang-behave-bih-01, and is part of the currently-planned charter for BEHAVE, http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/behave/current/msg08688.html, "Apr 2011, Submit to IESG: host-based NAT46 translation for IPv4-only applications to access IPv6-only servers (std)". Send feedback to iesg@iesg.com -d > Like IPv4 literals, i believe the general issues in mobile apps are > trivial. I presented my experience at the Google conference. Notice > not many apps are impacted > https://sites.google.com/site/ipv6implementors/2010/agenda/13_Byrne_T- > Mobile_IPv6GoogleMeeting.pdf > > My FUT users, along with my own experience, is that very few apps fail > when ipv6-only > > http://groups.google.com/group/tmoipv6beta/browse_thread/thread/6fc0633 > f0313b588 > > I understand that the desktop space, and in particular games and > skype, have problems with IPv6-only. But, mobile is different. The > SDKs for Apple, Symbian, and Android have done a good job at forcing > the developers to be IP version agnostic..... which means most apps > are IPv6 capable by default, not by app designers own volition. > > > > If I were king, and note that I am not at this instant wearing my > shiny working group chair crown, I'm wearing my dusty author's beret, > gethostbyname would disappear and applications that use it would be > given the option of complaining to /dev/null or fixing their code. At > some point, maybe the 3G vendors could help us out there... > > As far as i can tell, for the most part, your desire has been > achieved. If you believe otherwise, please contact me off list to > find out how you can join the IPv6-only beta. > > Cameron > _______________________________________________ > v4tov6transition mailing list > v4tov6transition@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v4tov6transition From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Aug 20 18:36:46 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B52F33A69B4 for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 18:36:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.887 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.887 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.215, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_EQ_AU=0.377, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rlWykdgiXRl0 for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 18:36:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1E593A68E7 for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 18:36:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Omcwp-000DJw-E4 for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Sat, 21 Aug 2010 01:32:39 +0000 Received: from [202.136.110.251] (helo=smtp2.adam.net.au) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Omcwm-000DJZ-7I for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Sat, 21 Aug 2010 01:32:36 +0000 Received: from 182-239-154-130.ip.adam.com.au ([182.239.154.130] helo=opy.nosense.org) by smtp2.adam.net.au with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1Omcwe-0006GI-Ay; Sat, 21 Aug 2010 11:02:28 +0930 Received: from opy.nosense.org (localhost.localdomain [IPv6:::1]) by opy.nosense.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECB103B31E; Sat, 21 Aug 2010 10:59:12 +0930 (CST) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 10:59:12 +0930 From: Mark Smith To: Fred Baker Cc: Tony Li , IPv6 Operations , int-area@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Int-area] Review of draft-narten-ipv6-3177bis-48boundary-05 Message-ID: <20100821105912.65da34e3@opy.nosense.org> In-Reply-To: <28C4A15C-DE54-4DD2-A5FD-33BFF66EFE83@cisco.com> References: <28C4A15C-DE54-4DD2-A5FD-33BFF66EFE83@cisco.com> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.7.6 (GTK+ 2.20.1; x86_64-unknown-linux-gnu) X-Location: Lower Mitcham, South Australia, 5062 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: Hi Fred, Tony, On Fri, 20 Aug 2010 13:16:05 -0700 Fred Baker wrote: > Thanks, Tony. > > Let me comment on one point in your review. > > On Aug 20, 2010, at 11:47 AM, Tony Li wrote: > > > To be really honest, I have concluded that every time we further idiot-proof the world, the world makes better idiots. > (That made me laugh out loud when I first read it :-) ) That seems to me to be a good argument for less options and more simplicity. The less knobs there are to tweak, the less chance of them being tweaked incorrectly. This topic has made me think a bit more about why I've liked e.g. Novell's IPX, and why I think IPv6 should be at least as easy to use. Protocols like IPX and Appletalk were easier to use because they were designed to be user friendly - with the users of the protocols being both the end users and the operators of the network (if the network was large enough for them to exist). User friendliness is quite an attractive feature of a protocol once you've experienced it. I think the main reason I've liked the idea of everybody having a /48 as a minimum is that it creates more simplicity and therefore user (and operator) friendliness. It's one less thing that varies, and therefore one less thing that the better idiots are likely to get wrong. It also makes my life easier as an operator because it's one less parameter to track the value of when dealing with the majority of addressing tasks. Having a "one size fits all" approach to addressing has worked successfully with ethernet addressing and other layer 3 protocols, so I think the principle is quite sound. The cost has been more than functionally necessary addressing bits, however those bits are generally pretty cheap and have provided a good simplicity and convenience return. So while I'm not strongly against the idea of having a small variety of prefix lengths (which is a whole lot better than the 20+ in IPv4!), I think it is worth trying to pursue operational simplicity and convenience, as a priority, by fixing parameters that don't need to vary. Hopefully that will continue to raise the threshold of the quality of idiots, and the efforts they have to go to, to be successful at breaking things :-) I think most low quality idiots won't bother when things just work :-) I'd really like to see IPv6 being far more user friendly than IPv4 and at least as user friendly as more modern protocols like IPX and Appletalk. I think the original designs and parameters pursued that goal, however as the protocol has been exposed to more and more IPv4-only people, it seems to me that there is now a push to make it more like IPv4 because those people are comfortable with IPv4 and haven't experienced the user friendliness of anything else. I think this is ultimately going to make IPv6 less user friendly than it was designed to be and can be. That'd be a shame. Regards, Mark. From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Aug 20 20:54:20 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A02A3A69A1 for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 20:54:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -109.127 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-109.127 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.632, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, RDNS_NONE=0.1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uecDZAQ892F4 for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 20:54:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C9323A6781 for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 20:54:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Omf5D-00046V-TS for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Sat, 21 Aug 2010 03:49:27 +0000 Received: from [171.68.10.87] (helo=sj-iport-5.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Omf5B-000465-DS for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Sat, 21 Aug 2010 03:49:25 +0000 Authentication-Results: sj-iport-5.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AvsEAAPqbkyrR7Hu/2dsb2JhbACgO3GdIZtHhTcEhDSFPw X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.56,243,1280707200"; d="scan'208";a="243252198" Received: from sj-core-5.cisco.com ([171.71.177.238]) by sj-iport-5.cisco.com with ESMTP; 21 Aug 2010 03:49:12 +0000 Received: from stealth-10-32-244-218.cisco.com (stealth-10-32-244-218.cisco.com [10.32.244.218]) by sj-core-5.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o7L3n4Kh000322 for ; Sat, 21 Aug 2010 03:49:06 GMT Received: from [127.0.0.1] by stealth-10-32-244-218.cisco.com (PGP Universal service); Fri, 20 Aug 2010 20:49:12 -0700 X-PGP-Universal: processed; by stealth-10-32-244-218.cisco.com on Fri, 20 Aug 2010 20:49:12 -0700 From: Fred Baker Subject: Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines-05 Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 20:48:57 -0700 References: <20100821021822.AA6373A681D@core3.amsl.com> To: IPv6 Operations Message-Id: <46648749-6ACB-4D99-8BF6-12352B298AAE@cisco.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1081) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1081) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: Begin forwarded message: > From: IETF I-D Submission Tool > Date: August 20, 2010 7:18:22 PM PDT > To: fred@cisco.com > Cc: jari.arkko@piuha.net > Subject: New Version Notification for = draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines-05=20 >=20 >=20 > A new version of I-D, draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines-05.txt = has been successfully submitted by Fred Baker and posted to the IETF = repository. >=20 > Filename: draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines > Revision: 05 > Title: Guidelines for Using IPv6 Transition Mechanisms = during IPv6 Deployment > Creation_date: 2010-08-20 > WG ID: Independent Submission > Number_of_pages: 18 >=20 > Abstract: > The Internet continues to grow beyond the capabilities of IPv4. An > expansion in the address space is clearly required. With its > increase in the number of available prefixes and addresses in a > subnet, and improvements in address management, IPv6 is the only real > option on the table. Yet, IPv6 deployment requires some effort, > resources, and expertise. The availability of many different > deployment models is one reason why expertise is required. This > document discusses the IPv6 deployment models and migration tools, > and recommends ones that have been found to work well in operational > networks in many common situations. >=20 >=20 >=20 > The IETF Secretariat. >=20 >=20 From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Aug 20 21:11:23 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72E113A68FC for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 21:11:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.482 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.482 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.117, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 15xGKjmpJsjb for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 21:11:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 748073A635F for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 21:11:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OmfNy-0006ej-Hn for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Sat, 21 Aug 2010 04:08:50 +0000 Received: from [2001:418:1::40] (helo=ran.psg.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OmfNw-0006e9-G4 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Sat, 21 Aug 2010 04:08:48 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=rmac.psg.com.psg.com) by ran.psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OmfNp-000KgJ-2p; Sat, 21 Aug 2010 04:08:41 +0000 Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 13:08:39 +0900 Message-ID: From: Randy Bush To: Fred Baker Cc: draft-narten-ipv6-3177bis-48boundary@tools.ietf.org, IPv6 Operations , int-area@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Int-area] Review of draft-narten-ipv6-3177bis-48boundary-05 In-Reply-To: References: User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 (Almost Unreal) Emacs/22.3 Mule/5.0 (SAKAKI) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI 1.14.6 - "Maruoka") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: > One of the important points of RFC 3177 is in the opening statements: > > The technical principles that apply to address allocation seek to > balance healthy conservation practices and wisdom with a certain ease > of access... > > The IETF makes no comment on business issues or relationships. > However, in general, we observe that technical delegation policy can > have strong business impacts. A strong requirement of the address > delegation plan is that it not be predicated on or unduly bias > business relationships or models. observing it is just fine. mucking with it is something we got the out of the ietf and back into the hands of operators in a decade ago. we do not need to re-learn tose lessons. the ietf has no actual brief for recommendating allocation sizes that are not based on, likely ephemeral and often fallacious, beliefs about isps' business practices, operational needs, this week's st00pid hardwhere, and religios zealotry about freeing the consumer. i strongly support the draft with the careful constraints it has. randy From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Aug 20 21:11:26 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 554C33A6781 for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 21:11:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.483 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.483 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.116, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0Y0s7PH4K+Zz for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 21:11:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C21C3A635F for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 21:11:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OmfQE-0006xa-3b for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Sat, 21 Aug 2010 04:11:10 +0000 Received: from [2001:418:1::40] (helo=ran.psg.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OmfQC-0006xF-3g for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Sat, 21 Aug 2010 04:11:08 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=rmac.psg.com.psg.com) by ran.psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OmfQ8-000Kh6-JE; Sat, 21 Aug 2010 04:11:04 +0000 Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 13:11:03 +0900 Message-ID: From: Randy Bush To: Brian E Carpenter Cc: Cameron Byrne , Fred Baker , v6ops@ops.ietf.org, kurtis@kurtis.pp.se, rbonica@juniper.net Subject: Re: Votes against what? [ draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC] In-Reply-To: <4C6EFCA9.4060409@gmail.com> References: <018544C5-8D1E-412A-B6E4-F12623E66366@cisco.com> <4C6EFCA9.4060409@gmail.com> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 (Almost Unreal) Emacs/22.3 Mule/5.0 (SAKAKI) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI 1.14.6 - "Maruoka") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: > Actually they are votes there are? votes? i thought we had discussions on the merits of various engineering approaches. From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Aug 20 21:48:14 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A0D53A68EF for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 21:48:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.34 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.34 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.845, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3KD3zrcZH7H6 for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 21:48:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4F183A6838 for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 21:48:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Omfxa-000BOi-Og for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Sat, 21 Aug 2010 04:45:38 +0000 Received: from [209.85.160.180] (helo=mail-gy0-f180.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OmfxU-000BOC-Lv for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Sat, 21 Aug 2010 04:45:33 +0000 Received: by gye5 with SMTP id 5so2289544gye.11 for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 21:45:31 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from :organization:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=jaCwM3AuifKYbFHh9VEyArmo51Mpiw+FmNFFestJAyU=; b=aBfz7xiM5pbgIrcaVLOh5k8xQ9ce+z8Y7IPwwbrnHTZRPtejbmWHFxCuqUaXOxBFi9 mdRcsYMJvmZhNi6UEl6qNpIEf/4aBrezkX2MlR2oDl+5jsayHMNB3nGNhdy9uHnFdBVK zxYH0/TlIe2gFJuGZoZWGXMy7kOc5qht3SQMI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:organization:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc :subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=rlpUlU2L54dfXjxVDj6N+A6gelQjPAILNizYdAhptgIucQGmcrE/RmnhhUgKc9NruQ 0orYqKGHCivmzAvTtx9dhlUWjRpoJKwM2WArlcsHbIS4oWSZzZSDeMnb9edOOVvuW6A8 ++Dg1bV5x+awzgcsOZhkmZ9o6HCVCiKq9J/5Y= Received: by 10.100.91.1 with SMTP id o1mr2589787anb.186.1282365931786; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 21:45:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.1.1.4] ([121.98.142.15]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id t30sm5820244ann.7.2010.08.20.21.45.28 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Fri, 20 Aug 2010 21:45:31 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4C6F59E3.4030503@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 16:45:23 +1200 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Windows/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Smith CC: Fred Baker , Tony Li , IPv6 Operations , int-area@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Int-area] Review of draft-narten-ipv6-3177bis-48boundary-05 References: <28C4A15C-DE54-4DD2-A5FD-33BFF66EFE83@cisco.com> <20100821105912.65da34e3@opy.nosense.org> In-Reply-To: <20100821105912.65da34e3@opy.nosense.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: On 2010-08-21 13:29, Mark Smith wrote: .... > Protocols like IPX and Appletalk were easier to use because they were > designed to be user friendly - with the users of the protocols being > both the end users and the operators of the network (if the network > was large enough for them to exist). Oh, archaeology is called for. The direct inspiration for the /64 boundary in IPv6 was IPX (or, to be historically correct, XNS). And a lot of the thinking behind promoting /48 as the one-size-fits-all prefix length was also based on IPX/XNS (and a little bit on DECnet). IPX and Appletalk directly inspired the decision to have built-in stateless autoconfiguration as part of IPv6; ND and RA were of course invented anew, but the main goal was zero-conf ease of use. At that time, IPv4 was a manual configuration nightmare, because DHCP wasn't yet deployable. But we have moved on since then, and I believe that 3177bis hits the mark fairly accurately (given that we now have DHCPv6 where needed). Brian From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Aug 20 21:48:22 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CBE83A67F8 for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 21:48:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.538 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.538 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.061, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3ezrlIaJN2SM for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 21:48:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F6473A6838 for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 21:48:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Omfxx-000BUD-VN for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Sat, 21 Aug 2010 04:46:01 +0000 Received: from [2a00:801::f] (helo=uplift.swm.pp.se) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Omfxr-000BTi-Qs for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Sat, 21 Aug 2010 04:45:56 +0000 Received: by uplift.swm.pp.se (Postfix, from userid 501) id 40D16A1; Sat, 21 Aug 2010 06:45:54 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by uplift.swm.pp.se (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3EB14A0; Sat, 21 Aug 2010 06:45:54 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 06:45:54 +0200 (CEST) From: Mikael Abrahamsson To: Fred Baker cc: Eric Gray , Tony Li , IPv6 Operations , "int-area@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Int-area] Review of draft-narten-ipv6-3177bis-48boundary-05 In-Reply-To: <188C11C5-CDBA-4213-83AC-453AE06ADAD5@cisco.com> Message-ID: References: <188C11C5-CDBA-4213-83AC-453AE06ADAD5@cisco.com> User-Agent: Alpine 1.10 (DEB 962 2008-03-14) Organization: People's Front Against WWW MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: On Fri, 20 Aug 2010, Fred Baker wrote: > I think there is a great reason to suggest that access and transit > networks to offer their downstreams /48, /52, /56, and /60 options at > various costs. I can understand the /48 and /56 options (for corporate and residential respectively), but I don't really get the /52 and /60. What is the cost difference to the ISP that warrants a different end user price for these services, and isn't it just an extra cost to switch the user between these services (reprovisioning) when their needs change? I believe in the "give 99% of the people what just works in the long run if it doesn't cost me extra" method, and I see it as sompler operationally to just offer /56 to residential users instead of /60 AND /56. -- Mikael Abrahamsson email: swmike@swm.pp.se From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Aug 20 22:05:15 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 563803A6A1B for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 22:05:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.488 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.488 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.111, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id f-jSCFMHqVJ9 for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 22:05:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8478D3A693A for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 22:05:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OmgFX-000DtX-IU for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Sat, 21 Aug 2010 05:04:11 +0000 Received: from [2001:418:1::40] (helo=ran.psg.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OmgFR-000Dsw-PG for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Sat, 21 Aug 2010 05:04:05 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=rmac.psg.com.psg.com) by ran.psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OmgFP-000Kn9-2u; Sat, 21 Aug 2010 05:04:03 +0000 Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 14:04:00 +0900 Message-ID: From: Randy Bush To: Fred Baker Cc: Brian E Carpenter , Cameron Byrne , v6ops@ops.ietf.org, kurtis@kurtis.pp.se, rbonica@juniper.net Subject: Re: Votes against what? [ draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC] In-Reply-To: References: <018544C5-8D1E-412A-B6E4-F12623E66366@cisco.com> <4C6EFCA9.4060409@gmail.com> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 (Almost Unreal) Emacs/22.3 Mule/5.0 (SAKAKI) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI 1.14.6 - "Maruoka") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: >>> Actually they are votes >> there are? votes? i thought we had discussions on the merits of >> various engineering approaches. > These aren't IETF votes, Randy. These are network operators voting > with their hard-earned cash on how to deploy. ahhh, sorry. apologie to brian. randy From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Aug 20 22:05:21 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 784AD3A6A1B for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 22:05:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.489 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.489 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.110, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Z7haUvDlBeFO for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 22:05:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E80D83A693A for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 22:05:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OmgDO-000Ddz-La for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Sat, 21 Aug 2010 05:01:58 +0000 Received: from [2001:418:1::40] (helo=ran.psg.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OmgDI-000DdB-UC for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Sat, 21 Aug 2010 05:01:52 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=rmac.psg.com.psg.com) by ran.psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OmgDA-000KmZ-3U; Sat, 21 Aug 2010 05:01:44 +0000 Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 14:01:42 +0900 Message-ID: From: Randy Bush To: Brian E Carpenter Cc: Mark Smith , Fred Baker , Tony Li , IPv6 Operations , int-area@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Int-area] Review of draft-narten-ipv6-3177bis-48boundary-05 In-Reply-To: <4C6F59E3.4030503@gmail.com> References: <28C4A15C-DE54-4DD2-A5FD-33BFF66EFE83@cisco.com> <20100821105912.65da34e3@opy.nosense.org> <4C6F59E3.4030503@gmail.com> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 (Almost Unreal) Emacs/22.3 Mule/5.0 (SAKAKI) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI 1.14.6 - "Maruoka") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: > But we have moved on since then, and I believe that 3177bis hits > the mark fairly accurately (given that we now have DHCPv6 where > needed). not exactly. we have dhcp5.5, as we all know only too well. randy From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Aug 20 22:05:29 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 580453A6A21 for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 22:05:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.49 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.49 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.109, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id g6NvsLoRWVXc for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 22:05:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B65393A693A for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 22:05:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OmgEJ-000Dk2-Hj for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Sat, 21 Aug 2010 05:02:55 +0000 Received: from [2001:418:1::40] (helo=ran.psg.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OmgED-000Dje-Sg for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Sat, 21 Aug 2010 05:02:49 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=rmac.psg.com.psg.com) by ran.psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OmgE8-000Kmr-MX; Sat, 21 Aug 2010 05:02:44 +0000 Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 14:02:43 +0900 Message-ID: From: Randy Bush To: Mikael Abrahamsson Cc: Fred Baker , Eric Gray , Tony Li , IPv6 Operations , "int-area@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Int-area] Review of draft-narten-ipv6-3177bis-48boundary-05 In-Reply-To: References: <188C11C5-CDBA-4213-83AC-453AE06ADAD5@cisco.com> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 (Almost Unreal) Emacs/22.3 Mule/5.0 (SAKAKI) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI 1.14.6 - "Maruoka") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: >> I think there is a great reason to suggest that access and transit >> networks to offer their downstreams /48, /52, /56, and /60 options at >> various costs. > > I can understand the /48 and /56 options (for corporate and > residential respectively), but I don't really get the /52 and > /60. What is the cost difference to the ISP that warrants a different > end user price for these services, and isn't it just an extra cost to > switch the user between these services (reprovisioning) when their > needs change? and why is the ietf discussing ephemeral operator pricing models? randy From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Aug 20 22:05:38 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 569983A6A1B for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 22:05:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -109.118 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-109.118 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.623, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, RDNS_NONE=0.1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id C-36YsH6T+HV for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 22:05:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 876973A6830 for ; Fri, 20 Aug 2010 22:05:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OmgD8-000DaI-Hz for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Sat, 21 Aug 2010 05:01:42 +0000 Received: from [171.68.10.87] (helo=sj-iport-5.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OmgD2-000DXh-Ip for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Sat, 21 Aug 2010 05:01:36 +0000 Authentication-Results: sj-iport-5.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AvsEAGv6bkyrR7H+/2dsb2JhbACgQHGcWZtFhTcEhDWFQQ X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.56,243,1280707200"; d="scan'208";a="243269424" Received: from sj-core-2.cisco.com ([171.71.177.254]) by sj-iport-5.cisco.com with ESMTP; 21 Aug 2010 05:01:35 +0000 Received: from stealth-10-32-244-218.cisco.com (stealth-10-32-244-218.cisco.com [10.32.244.218]) by sj-core-2.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o7L51S47003115; Sat, 21 Aug 2010 05:01:30 GMT Received: from [127.0.0.1] by stealth-10-32-244-218.cisco.com (PGP Universal service); Fri, 20 Aug 2010 22:01:35 -0700 X-PGP-Universal: processed; by stealth-10-32-244-218.cisco.com on Fri, 20 Aug 2010 22:01:35 -0700 Subject: Re: Votes against what? [ draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC] Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1081) From: Fred Baker In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 22:01:22 -0700 Cc: Brian E Carpenter , Cameron Byrne , v6ops@ops.ietf.org, kurtis@kurtis.pp.se, rbonica@juniper.net Message-Id: References: <018544C5-8D1E-412A-B6E4-F12623E66366@cisco.com> <4C6EFCA9.4060409@gmail.com> To: Randy Bush X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1081) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: On Aug 20, 2010, at 9:11 PM, Randy Bush wrote: >> Actually they are votes >=20 > there are? votes? i thought we had discussions on the merits of > various engineering approaches. These aren't IETF votes, Randy. These are network operators voting with = their hard-earned cash on how to deploy. There are of course those that are not deploying. There is not much to = be said about them other than that. People that are doing green field networks may be implementing = IPv6-only. I have heard several mobile operators suggest it, and I know = one that has. I know of one research network, CERNET2, that has also = done so. Those that have existing IPv4 networks, to my knowledge, are not first = shutting down their IPv4 networks and then bringing up IPv6; they are = bringing ip IPv6 in the IPv4 networks. You would be a well-placed party to observe on this. What incidence have = you seen of IPv6-only deployment, and what incidence have you seen of = IPv6 being deployed in existing IPv4 networks?= From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Sat Aug 21 06:26:45 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38CD23A6816 for ; Sat, 21 Aug 2010 06:26:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.344 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.344 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.255, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0cEHfdkyPMjr for ; Sat, 21 Aug 2010 06:26:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CFAF83A6807 for ; Sat, 21 Aug 2010 06:26:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Omnzl-0006qL-H0 for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Sat, 21 Aug 2010 13:20:25 +0000 Received: from [2001:14b8:400::130] (helo=p130.piuha.net) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Omnzj-0006q3-0Y for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Sat, 21 Aug 2010 13:20:23 +0000 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by p130.piuha.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26B862CC9A; Sat, 21 Aug 2010 16:20:21 +0300 (EEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at piuha.net Received: from p130.piuha.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (p130.piuha.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ACQStfajDFpH; Sat, 21 Aug 2010 16:20:20 +0300 (EEST) Received: from [IPv6:::1] (unknown [IPv6:2001:14b8:400::130]) by p130.piuha.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC19D2CC62; Sat, 21 Aug 2010 16:20:18 +0300 (EEST) Message-ID: <4C6FD292.1070806@piuha.net> Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 09:20:18 -0400 From: Jari Arkko User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.24 (X11/20100411) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Cameron Byrne CC: Fred Baker , IPv6 v6ops , v4tov6transition@ietf.org Subject: Re: draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC References: <018544C5-8D1E-412A-B6E4-F12623E66366@cisco.com> <1E46BEA0-85C4-44B0-B76B-29CBB7515ACF@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: Cameron, > Jari states IPv6-only works well for > mobile. I believe one of his docs (Google preso) states it > approaches 100% functionality. > Yes, though for the record, draft-arkko-ipv6-only-experience does say that under certain assumptions (the ability to pick the right user devices) you reach 100% functionality. I do believe that IPv6-only (with nat64) is an excellent approach for mobile networks, and I hope we will soon see this in widespread commercial usage. Perhaps in your network :-) That being said, I do not want to give the impression that its a piece of cake either. The assumption above is a tough requirement, and for sure there'll be plenty of other work ahead as well. I do stand by my recommendation that *at this time* even for mobile operators, dual stack should be the default strategy even if some networks are going for IPv6-only. I am aware of the additional complexities on the dual stack side as well. In any case, I believe that a few years down the road the recommendation will be different, i.e., enough software and user equipment have matured so that IPv6-only can be considered as the default strategy. Of course, some networks have to be at the forefront. They will be the leaders, but will also get the initial pains from hitting various issues first. Anyway, what are we really discussing here about? The document *does* recommend all four different models. I think we do have deployment evidence that speaks in favor of dual stack being the most problem free (at the moment), so this is why it is discussed first and described as the default strategy. I would be happy to use more accurate or different wording, but I don't think that you are arguing either that some of the models should go away. Would you like us to add something more specific about types of networks (e.g., mobile) where translation-based model is recommended? Jari From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Sat Aug 21 06:26:53 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25E2F3A6877 for ; Sat, 21 Aug 2010 06:26:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.852 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.852 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.357, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MNRjX1+bzQ8C for ; Sat, 21 Aug 2010 06:26:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0248A3A68B8 for ; Sat, 21 Aug 2010 06:26:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Omo4C-0007PG-Ui for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Sat, 21 Aug 2010 13:25:01 +0000 Received: from [209.85.213.52] (helo=mail-yw0-f52.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Omo49-0007Oa-OG for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Sat, 21 Aug 2010 13:24:57 +0000 Received: by ywl5 with SMTP id 5so2469431ywl.11 for ; Sat, 21 Aug 2010 06:24:57 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:received:in-reply-to :references:date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=DPSVU/I1IPhr/yvXmIoBMpzCId4qaV+aAXck053oJnQ=; b=L8Cumjd/0D7y6/8lgJ6kfejCeWkv/xUobi227jhZ7r+rhPVGFE5KRQzabxEq8HsLzU wjgTR/pfAYHmC15z7rS16DlZArjqdBuwqytCS+ZyyY+3WzVpxatJZyGzhhKm2ce/0zPG VN1V2LQDkhGbN4FyFz016WZZiObzpFpK8lzdk= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=dkJYSiFs+gY48BARsJs+Uzl1gN8H/bwZ/1NmXjf4+/5Ok8selIA3Zxy8c5VRuVL592 rR8NYO70Rof18Hf/Y8YKk2PyZ1qD3yw5OkH4/vv8zX2miClHGOJ36LPkmAuKvAEN2Qii e5dg2UqxfFDA6dug3dkp3PU/vxVBDIbPyoS48= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.150.203.10 with SMTP id a10mr3307930ybg.8.1282397096589; Sat, 21 Aug 2010 06:24:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.189.4 with HTTP; Sat, 21 Aug 2010 06:24:56 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <018544C5-8D1E-412A-B6E4-F12623E66366@cisco.com> <4C6EFCA9.4060409@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 06:24:56 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Votes against what? [ draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC] From: Cameron Byrne To: Fred Baker Cc: Randy Bush , Brian E Carpenter , v6ops@ops.ietf.org, kurtis@kurtis.pp.se, rbonica@juniper.net Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 10:01 PM, Fred Baker wrote: > > On Aug 20, 2010, at 9:11 PM, Randy Bush wrote: > >>> Actually they are votes >> >> there are? =A0votes? =A0i thought we had discussions on the merits of >> various engineering approaches. > > These aren't IETF votes, Randy. These are network operators voting with t= heir hard-earned cash on how to deploy. > > There are of course those that are not deploying. There is not much to be= said about them other than that. > > People that are doing green field networks may be implementing IPv6-only.= I have heard several mobile operators suggest it, and I know one that has.= I know of one research network, CERNET2, that has also done so. > FYI, FWIW, my IPv6-only service is deployed on a network that is not greenfield. More on that below. > Those that have existing IPv4 networks, to my knowledge, are not first sh= utting down their IPv4 networks and then bringing up IPv6; they are bringin= g ip IPv6 in the IPv4 networks. > FYI, FWIW, i am also not shutting down IPv4. My approach is IPv6-only deployed one handset model at a time.... no disturbance to existing install base.... no boiling of the ocean. > You would be a well-placed party to observe on this. What incidence have = you seen of IPv6-only deployment, and what incidence have you seen of IPv6 = being deployed in existing IPv4 networks? Agreed. Randy is a well placed party :) He made a very insightful and very correct statement here http://ops.ietf.org/lists/v6ops/v6ops.2010/msg00978.html Wireless is a weird edge, your normal recommendations and standard LAN / WAN logic does not really apply. If you would like to take mobile networks into account, i strongly recommend that you view Mobile section from the Google conference https://sites.google.com/site/ipv6implementors/2010/agenda What has been missing from our dialog is the fact that i have already deployed IPv6-only edge (phones, not routers) nationwide in the USA without a single national network MOP, ipv6 address on a production router, or router upgrade. The radio networks is also oblivious to IPv6 services. All i had to do was deploy an anchor point in a lab with an IPv6 ISP, tweak a few user profile settings, and the rest just works. Thank you 3GPP. This is by virtue of the fact that the user's IP (v4 or v6) only really lives on the handset and the mobility anchor (GGSN). Once the IP packet leaves the handset it is tunneled all around inside of IPv4 mobility tunnels until it reaches the Internet boarder of my network, where it becomes a real IPv6 routed packet again. So, literally, the IPv6 packets are only ever exposed on the handset itself and on the mobility anchor (GGSN) facing the Internet. There are hundreds of routers in between that are oblivious to the fact that IPv6 is deployed because the mobility tunnels are all IPv4 on the outside... and will stay that way ... since it is only the edge (phones, not routers) that NEED IPv6 to grow *my* business. Dual stack routers in my network don't matter, aside from my internet peering. That said, the handset can be provisioned as "non-unique with my network" or BOGON IPv4, IPv6, or at 2x the *packet core* cost with non-unique IPv4 addresses AND IPv6. I hope this provides some clarity. For mobile, it is not about the "IP network". IPv6 vs IPv4 vs DS is only about the handset and how it instantiates its Internet communication on the mobility anchor. It is fundamentally different from a backbone ISP going to dual-stack from IPv4, which is a smart path that all my upstream ISPs have done. Regards, Cameron From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Sat Aug 21 06:51:23 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 515D13A6807 for ; Sat, 21 Aug 2010 06:51:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.866 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.866 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.371, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MgbyZv51FSSd for ; Sat, 21 Aug 2010 06:51:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 508A83A67A2 for ; Sat, 21 Aug 2010 06:51:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OmoRt-000AoA-1T for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Sat, 21 Aug 2010 13:49:29 +0000 Received: from [209.85.210.52] (helo=mail-pz0-f52.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OmoRq-000Ano-Mc for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Sat, 21 Aug 2010 13:49:26 +0000 Received: by pzk27 with SMTP id 27so2640326pzk.11 for ; Sat, 21 Aug 2010 06:49:26 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:received:in-reply-to :references:date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=70mm+UZtuZpeq2ER35jOPXyl/dzmU8pQ9cvTSATHgTg=; b=WAw9rHde0uiu4PEPrlG28cHoHLJ18Bubg8BAxhLmzSZPJH6blNrEsUWcS/lOhziQNt CPkpu0Cm8VSTCjhSzZNML3iDwWFBuMA15hduw6eh26L12Z/PrPaduifs2DDNY+iRQyko u2yE7exkkPJKnqxtvLohor1c0al226UVITCDI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; b=urx1vX11gXZc4267+6VelJ3bGyLl3xu16McFnoLKqaPe5dARszi//i1qKD+Hg6F6ja n8o8twEvQU6pxMT1Y+LktEiJQHysCm5K+Lrs+rO5ltrNKeBVO9ZxLpJn5gaam4iAsnR8 3db1B14gSjDbiaykm2Ke/9pxU9DmwPdOZ/yBU= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.142.48.18 with SMTP id v18mr2280646wfv.101.1282398566255; Sat, 21 Aug 2010 06:49:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.142.246.7 with HTTP; Sat, 21 Aug 2010 06:49:26 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <4C6FD292.1070806@piuha.net> References: <018544C5-8D1E-412A-B6E4-F12623E66366@cisco.com> <1E46BEA0-85C4-44B0-B76B-29CBB7515ACF@cisco.com> <4C6FD292.1070806@piuha.net> Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 06:49:26 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC From: Cameron Byrne To: Jari Arkko Cc: Fred Baker , IPv6 v6ops , v4tov6transition@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: > > Yes, though for the record, draft-arkko-ipv6-only-experience does say that > under certain assumptions (the ability to pick the right user devices) you > reach 100% functionality. > I would be very happy if we included the above point in the transition draft section 4.4 > I do believe that IPv6-only (with nat64) is an excellent approach for mobile > networks, and I hope we will soon see this in widespread commercial usage. And this above point too. The draft only includes a green field corporate LAN as the use case for IPv6-only.... and testing. I believe adding the above points will add mobile IPv6-only APNs as another relevant use case, not for special purpose sensor networks, but generic IPv6 capable phones with NAT64 systems to access the Internet. I am perfectly fine with saying that dual-stack is the default IETF recommended strategy as long as we also say that with some consideration and qualifications IPv6-only can be just as capable. Thanks Jari. Cameorn From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Sat Aug 21 09:45:18 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A90393A67E6 for ; Sat, 21 Aug 2010 09:45:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -108.408 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-108.408 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.310, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=1.396, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, RDNS_NONE=0.1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id n2T7DAUUgBxs for ; Sat, 21 Aug 2010 09:45:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C83E83A687F for ; Sat, 21 Aug 2010 09:45:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Omr6z-000Anc-Ns for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Sat, 21 Aug 2010 16:40:05 +0000 Received: from [171.71.176.117] (helo=sj-iport-6.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Omr6t-000AmU-3u for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Sat, 21 Aug 2010 16:40:00 +0000 Authentication-Results: sj-iport-6.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: ArQIAMadb0yrR7H+/2dsb2JhbACBRIRIjSOFCYcuW3GeR5sWhTcEgVaCX4VB X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.56,246,1280707200"; d="scan'208,217";a="576859513" Received: from sj-core-2.cisco.com ([171.71.177.254]) by sj-iport-6.cisco.com with ESMTP; 21 Aug 2010 16:38:56 +0000 Received: from stealth-10-32-244-218.cisco.com (stealth-10-32-244-218.cisco.com [10.32.244.218]) by sj-core-2.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o7LGcj5c011742; Sat, 21 Aug 2010 16:38:47 GMT Received: from [127.0.0.1] by stealth-10-32-244-218.cisco.com (PGP Universal service); Sat, 21 Aug 2010 09:38:53 -0700 X-PGP-Universal: processed; by stealth-10-32-244-218.cisco.com on Sat, 21 Aug 2010 09:38:53 -0700 From: Fred Baker Subject: Diff: draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines-05.txt - transition-guideline.txt Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 09:38:39 -0700 Message-Id: <080C7326-64E4-4562-98DA-70676636B464@cisco.com> Cc: IPv6 v6ops , v4tov6transition@ietf.org, Jari Arkko , Kurt Erik Lindqvist , Ron Bonica To: Cameron Byrne , Hui Deng Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1081) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1081) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-180--841158546 Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: --Apple-Mail-180--841158546 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Cameron: Does the following address your concerns? Fred < draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines-05.txt = transition-guideline.txt =09 =09 Network Working Group J. Arkko = Network Working Group = J. Arkko=09 Internet-Draft Ericsson = Internet-Draft = Ericsson=09 Intended status: Informational F. Baker = Intended status: Informational = F. Baker=09 Expires: February 21, 2011 Cisco Systems = Expires: February 22, 2011 Cisco = Systems=09 August 20, 2010 = August = 21, 2010=09 =09 Guidelines for Using IPv6 Transition Mechanisms during IPv6 Deployment = Guidelines for Using IPv6 Transition Mechanisms during IPv6 = Deployment=09 draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines-05 = draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines-06=09 =09 Abstract Abstract=09 =09 The Internet continues to grow beyond the capabilities of IPv4. An = The Internet continues to grow beyond the capabilities of = IPv4. An=09 expansion in the address space is clearly required. With its = expansion in the address space is clearly required. With its=09= increase in the number of available prefixes and addresses in a = increase in the number of available prefixes and addresses in = a=09 subnet, and improvements in address management, IPv6 is the only real = subnet, and improvements in address management, IPv6 is the = only real=09 option on the table. Yet, IPv6 deployment requires some effort, = option on the table. Yet, IPv6 deployment requires some = effort,=09 resources, and expertise. The availability of many different = resources, and expertise. The availability of many different=09= deployment models is one reason why expertise is required. This = deployment models is one reason why expertise is required. = This=09 =09 skipping to change at page 1, line 40 skipping to change at = page 1, line 40=09 Internet-Drafts are working documents of the Internet Engineering = Internet-Drafts are working documents of the Internet = Engineering=09 Task Force (IETF). Note that other groups may also distribute = Task Force (IETF). Note that other groups may also = distribute=09 working documents as Internet-Drafts. The list of current Internet- = working documents as Internet-Drafts. The list of current = Internet-=09 Drafts is at http://datatracker.ietf.org/drafts/current/. = Drafts is at http://datatracker.ietf.org/drafts/current/.=09 =09 Internet-Drafts are draft documents valid for a maximum of six months = Internet-Drafts are draft documents valid for a maximum of = six months=09 and may be updated, replaced, or obsoleted by other documents at any = and may be updated, replaced, or obsoleted by other documents = at any=09 time. It is inappropriate to use Internet-Drafts as reference = time. It is inappropriate to use Internet-Drafts as = reference=09 material or to cite them other than as "work in progress." = material or to cite them other than as "work in progress."=09 =09 This Internet-Draft will expire on February 21, 2011. = This Internet-Draft will expire on February 22, 2011.=09 =09 Copyright Notice Copyright Notice=09 =09 Copyright (c) 2010 IETF Trust and the persons identified as the = Copyright (c) 2010 IETF Trust and the persons identified as = the=09 document authors. All rights reserved. document = authors. All rights reserved.=09 =09 This document is subject to BCP 78 and the IETF Trust's Legal = This document is subject to BCP 78 and the IETF Trust's Legal=09= Provisions Relating to IETF Documents Provisions = Relating to IETF Documents=09 (http://trustee.ietf.org/license-info) in effect on the date of = (http://trustee.ietf.org/license-info) in effect on the date = of=09 publication of this document. Please review these documents = publication of this document. Please review these documents=09 =09 skipping to change at page 2, line 24 skipping to change at = page 2, line 24=09 2. Terminology . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 = 2. Terminology . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . = . . . 4=09 3. Principles . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 = 3. Principles . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . = . . . 4=09 3.1. Goals . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 = 3.1. Goals . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . = . . . 5=09 3.2. Choosing a Deployment Model . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 = 3.2. Choosing a Deployment Model . . . . . . . . . . . . = . . . 6=09 4. Guidelines for IPv6 Deployment . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 = 4. Guidelines for IPv6 Deployment . . . . . . . . . . . . . = . . . 7=09 4.1. Native Dual Stack . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 = 4.1. Native Dual Stack . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . = . . . 8=09 4.2. Crossing IPv4 Islands . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 10 = 4.2. Crossing IPv4 Islands . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . = . . . 10=09 4.3. IPv6-Only Core Network . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 11 = 4.3. IPv6-Only Core Network . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . = . . . 11=09 4.4. IPv6-only Deployment . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 11 = 4.4. IPv6-only Deployment . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . = . . . 11=09 5. Further Reading . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 13 = 5. Further Reading . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . = . . . 13=09 6. Security Considerations . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 13 = 6. Security Considerations . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . = . . . 14=09 7. IANA Considerations . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 14 = 7. IANA Considerations . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . = . . . 14=09 8. References . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 14 = 8. References . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . = . . . 14=09 8.1. Normative References . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 14 = 8.1. Normative References . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . = . . . 14=09 8.2. Informative References . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 14 = 8.2. Informative References . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . = . . . 15=09 Appendix A. Acknowledgments . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 17 = Appendix A. Acknowledgments . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . = . . . 18=09 Authors' Addresses . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 18 = Authors' Addresses . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . = . . . 18=09 =09 1. Introduction 1. Introduction=09 =09 The Internet continues to grow beyond the capabilities of IPv4. The = The Internet continues to grow beyond the capabilities of = IPv4. The=09 tremendous success of the Internet has strained the IPv4 address = tremendous success of the Internet has strained the IPv4 = address=09 space, which is no longer sufficient to fuel future growth. At the = space, which is no longer sufficient to fuel future growth. = At the=09 time of this writing, August 2010, the IANA "free pool" contains only = time of this writing, August 2010, the IANA "free pool" = contains only=09 14 unallocated unicast IPv4 /8 prefixes. Credible estimates based on = 14 unallocated unicast IPv4 /8 prefixes. Credible estimates = based on=09 past behavior suggest that the RIRs will exhaust their remaining = past behavior suggest that the RIRs will exhaust their = remaining=09 =09 skipping to change at page 5, line 49 skipping to change at = page 5, line 49=09 particular advantage to avoiding dealing with IPv6 as a part the = particular advantage to avoiding dealing with IPv6 as a part = the=09 normal network planning cycle. The migration tools already exist, = normal network planning cycle. The migration tools already = exist,=09 and while additional features continue to be developed it is not = and while additional features continue to be developed it is = not=09 expected that they radically change what networks have to do. In = expected that they radically change what networks have to do. = In=09 other words, there is no point in waiting for an improved design. = other words, there is no point in waiting for an improved = design.=09 =09 There are only a few exceptional networks where co-existence with = There are only a few exceptional networks where co-existence = with=09 IPv4 is not a consideration at all. These networks are typically new = IPv4 is not a consideration at all. These networks are = typically new=09 deployments, strictly controlled by a central authority, and have no = deployments, strictly controlled by a central authority, and = have no=09 need to deal with legacy devices. For example, specialized machine- = need to deal with legacy devices. For example, specialized = machine-=09 to-machine networks that communicate only to designated servers can = to-machine networks that communicate only to designated = servers, such=09 easily be deployed as IPv6-only networks. In most other networks = as Smart Grids, can easily be deployed as IPv6-only networks. = Mobile=09 telephone network operators, especially those using LTE, have=09= seriously considered IPv6-only operation, and some have = deployed it.=09 Research networks that can be separated from the IPv4 = Internet to=09 find out what happens are also a candidate. In most other = networks=09 IPv4 has to be considered. A typical requirement is that older, = IPv4 has to be considered. A typical requirement is that = older,=09 IPv4-only devices must be accommodated. Most networks that cross = IPv4-only applications, systems, or services must be = accommodated.=09 administrative boundaries or allow end user equipment have such = Most networks that cross administrative boundaries or allow = end user=09 requirements. Even in situations where the network consists of only = equipment have such requirements. Even in situations where = the=09 new, IPv6-capable devices it is typically required that the devices = network consists of only new, IPv6-capable devices it is = typically=09 can communicate with the IPv4 Internet. required that = the devices can communicate with the IPv4 Internet.=09 =09 It is expected that after a period of supporting both IPv4 and IPv6, = It is expected that after a period of supporting both IPv4 = and IPv6,=09 IPv4 can eventually be turned off. This should happen gradually. = IPv4 can eventually be turned off. This should happen = gradually.=09 For instance, a service provider network might stop providing IPv4 = For instance, a service provider network might stop providing = IPv4=09 service within its own network, while still allowing its IPv6 = service within its own network, while still allowing its IPv6=09= customers to access the rest of the IPv4 Internet through overlay or = customers to access the rest of the IPv4 Internet through = overlay or=09 proxy services. Regardless of progress in supporting IPv6, it is = proxy services. Regardless of progress in supporting IPv6, = it is=09 widely expected that some legacy applications and some networks will = widely expected that some legacy applications and some = networks will=09 continue to run only over IPv4 for many years. All deployment = continue to run only over IPv4 for many years. All = deployment=09 scenarios need to deal with this situation. scenarios = need to deal with this situation.=09 =09 skipping to change at page 11, line 51 skipping to change at = page 12, line 8=09 Our final deployment model breaks the requirement that all parties = Our final deployment model breaks the requirement that all = parties=09 must upgrade to IPv6 before any actual communications use IPv6. This = must upgrade to IPv6 before any actual communications use = IPv6. This=09 model makes sense when the following conditions are met: = model makes sense when the following conditions are met:=09 =09 o There is a fact or requirement that there be an IPv4-only domain = o There is a fact or requirement that there be an IPv4-only = domain=09 and an IPv6-only domain. and an IPv6-only domain.=09= =09 o There is a requirement that hosts in the IPv4-only domain access = o There is a requirement that hosts in the IPv4-only domain = access=09 servers or peers in the IPv6-only domain and vice versa. = servers or peers in the IPv6-only domain and vice versa.=09 =09 This is enhanced when the network operator is able to select = user=09 devices and applications, enabling him to ensure that any=09 communication exchange is in fact predictable and = translatable. In=09 such a case, full interoperability can be expected for those=09= applications the walled garden enables.=09 = =09 When we say "IPv4-only" or "IPv6-only", we mean that the applications = When we say "IPv4-only" or "IPv6-only", we mean that the = applications=09 can communicate only using IPv4 or IPv6; this might be due to lack of = can communicate only using IPv4 or IPv6; this might be due to = lack of=09 capabilities in the applications, host stacks, or the network; the = capabilities in the applications, host stacks, or the = network; the=09 effect is the same. The reason to switch to an IPv6-only network may = effect is the same. The reason to switch to an IPv6-only = network may=09 be a desire to test such a configuration, or to simplify the network. = be a desire to test such a configuration, or to simplify the = network.=09 It is expected that as IPv6 deployment progresses, the second reason = It is expected that as IPv6 deployment progresses, the second = reason=09 will become more prevalent. One particular reason for considering an = will become more prevalent. One particular reason for = considering an=09 IPv6-only domain is the effect of overlapping private address space = IPv6-only domain is the effect of overlapping private address = space=09 to applications. This is important in networks that have exhausted = to applications. This is important in networks that have = exhausted=09 both public and private IPv4 address space and where arranging an = both public and private IPv4 address space and where = arranging an=09 =09 End of changes. 8 change blocks.=20 14 lines changed or deleted 24 lines changed or added=09 This html diff was produced by rfcdiff 1.38. The latest version is = available from http://tools.ietf.org/tools/rfcdiff/=20 --Apple-Mail-180--841158546 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii =20 =20 =20 Diff: draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines-05.txt - = transition-guideline.txt=20 =20

Does the = following address your concerns?
Fred


=20= =20 =20 =
< draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines-05.txt&nbs= p; =  transition-guideline.txt 
Network Working Group = J. Arkko Network Working Group = J. Arkko
Internet-Draft = Ericsson Internet-Draft = Ericsson
Intended status: Informational = F. Baker Intended status: = Informational F. Baker
Expires: February 21, = 2011 Cisco Systems Expires: February 22, = 2011 Cisco Systems
= August 20, 2010 = August 21, 2010
= Guidelines for Using IPv6 Transition Mechanisms during IPv6 = Deployment Guidelines for Using IPv6 = Transition Mechanisms during IPv6 Deployment
= draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines-05 = draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines-06
Abstract Abstract
= The Internet continues to grow beyond the capabilities of IPv4. = An The Internet continues to grow = beyond the capabilities of IPv4. An
= expansion in the address space is clearly required. With its = expansion in the address space is clearly = required. With its
= increase in the number of available prefixes and addresses in a = increase in the number of available prefixes = and addresses in a
= subnet, and improvements in address management, IPv6 is the only = real subnet, and improvements in = address management, IPv6 is the only real
= option on the table. Yet, IPv6 deployment requires some = effort, option on the table. Yet, = IPv6 deployment requires some effort,
= resources, and expertise. The availability of many different = resources, and expertise. The availability = of many different
= deployment models is one reason why expertise is required. = This deployment models is one = reason why expertise is required. This
=
skipping to change at page 1, line = 40 skipping to = change at page 1, line 40
= Internet-Drafts are working documents of the Internet = Engineering Internet-Drafts are = working documents of the Internet Engineering
= Task Force (IETF). Note that other groups may also distribute = Task Force (IETF). Note that other groups = may also distribute
= working documents as Internet-Drafts. The list of current = Internet- working documents as = Internet-Drafts. The list of current Internet-
= Drafts is at http://datatracker.ie= tf.org/drafts/current/. Drafts = is at http://datatracker.ie= tf.org/drafts/current/.
= Internet-Drafts are draft documents valid for a maximum of six = months Internet-Drafts are draft = documents valid for a maximum of six months
= and may be updated, replaced, or obsoleted by other documents at = any and may be updated, replaced, = or obsoleted by other documents at any
= time. It is inappropriate to use Internet-Drafts as reference = time. It is inappropriate to use = Internet-Drafts as reference
= material or to cite them other than as "work in progress." = material or to cite them other than as "work = in progress."
= This Internet-Draft will expire on February 21, 2011. = This Internet-Draft will expire on February 22, 2011.
Copyright Notice Copyright Notice
= Copyright (c) 2010 IETF Trust and the persons identified as the = Copyright (c) 2010 IETF Trust and the = persons identified as the
= document authors. All rights reserved. = document authors. All rights reserved.
= This document is subject to BCP 78 and the IETF Trust's Legal = This document is subject to BCP 78 and the = IETF Trust's Legal
= Provisions Relating to IETF Documents = Provisions Relating to IETF Documents
= (http://trustee.ietf.org/lice= nse-info) in effect on the date of = (http://trustee.ietf.org/lice= nse-info) in effect on the date of
= publication of this document. Please review these documents = publication of this document. Please review = these documents
=
skipping to change at page 2, line = 24 skipping to = change at page 2, line 24
= 2. Terminology . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . = 4 2. Terminology . . . . . . . . = . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4
= 3. Principles . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . = 4 3. Principles . . . . . . . . . = . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4
= 3.1. Goals . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . = 5 3.1. Goals . . . . . . . . . = . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5
= 3.2. Choosing a Deployment Model . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . = 6 3.2. Choosing a Deployment = Model . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6
= 4. Guidelines for IPv6 Deployment . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . = 7 4. Guidelines for IPv6 = Deployment . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7
= 4.1. Native Dual Stack . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . = 8 4.1. Native Dual Stack . . . = . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8
= 4.2. Crossing IPv4 Islands . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . = 10 4.2. Crossing IPv4 Islands . = . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 10
= 4.3. IPv6-Only Core Network . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . = 11 4.3. IPv6-Only Core Network . = . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 11
= 4.4. IPv6-only Deployment . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . = 11 4.4. IPv6-only Deployment . . = . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 11
= 5. Further Reading . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . = 13 5. Further Reading . . . . . . = . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 13
= 6. Security Considerations . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . = 13 = 6. Security Considerations . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . = 14
= 7. IANA Considerations . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . = 14 7. IANA Considerations . . . . = . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 14
= 8. References . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . = 14 8. References . . . . . . . . . = . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 14
= 8.1. Normative References . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . = 14 8.1. Normative References . . = . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 14
= 8.2. Informative References . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . = 14 = 8.2. Informative References . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 15
= Appendix A. Acknowledgments . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . = 17 = Appendix A. Acknowledgments . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 18
= Authors' Addresses . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . = 18 Authors' Addresses . . . . . . . = . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 18
1. = Introduction 1. Introduction
= The Internet continues to grow beyond the capabilities of IPv4. = The The Internet continues to grow = beyond the capabilities of IPv4. The
= tremendous success of the Internet has strained the IPv4 = address tremendous success of the = Internet has strained the IPv4 address
= space, which is no longer sufficient to fuel future growth. At = the space, which is no longer = sufficient to fuel future growth. At the
= time of this writing, August 2010, the IANA "free pool" contains = only time of this writing, August = 2010, the IANA "free pool" contains only
= 14 unallocated unicast IPv4 /8 prefixes. Credible estimates based = on 14 unallocated unicast IPv4 /8 = prefixes. Credible estimates based on
= past behavior suggest that the RIRs will exhaust their = remaining past behavior suggest = that the RIRs will exhaust their remaining
=
skipping to change at page 5, line = 49 skipping to = change at page 5, line 49
= particular advantage to avoiding dealing with IPv6 as a part = the particular advantage to = avoiding dealing with IPv6 as a part the
= normal network planning cycle. The migration tools already = exist, normal network planning = cycle. The migration tools already exist,
= and while additional features continue to be developed it is = not and while additional features = continue to be developed it is not
= expected that they radically change what networks have to do. = In expected that they radically = change what networks have to do. In
= other words, there is no point in waiting for an improved = design. other words, there is no = point in waiting for an improved design.
= There are only a few exceptional networks where co-existence = with There are only a few = exceptional networks where co-existence with
= IPv4 is not a consideration at all. These networks are typically = new IPv4 is not a consideration at = all. These networks are typically new
= deployments, strictly controlled by a central authority, and have = no deployments, strictly controlled = by a central authority, and have no
= need to deal with legacy devices. For example, specialized = machine- need to deal with legacy = devices. For example, specialized machine-
= to-machine networks that communicate only to designated servers can = to-machine networks that communicate only to designated servers, such
= easily be deployed as IPv6-only networks. In most other = networks as = Smart Grids, can easily be deployed as IPv6-only networks. Mobile
telephone network operators, especially those using = LTE, have
seriously considered IPv6-only operation, and some = have deployed it.
Research networks that can be separated from the = IPv4 Internet to
find out what happens are also a candidate. = In most other networks
= IPv4 has to be considered. A typical requirement is that = older, IPv4 has to be considered. = A typical requirement is that older,
= IPv4-only devices must be accommodated. = Most networks that cross IPv4-only = applications, systems, or services must be = accommodated.
= administrative boundaries or allow end user equipment have = such Most networks that cross = administrative boundaries or allow end user
= requirements. Even in situations where the network consists of = only equipment have such = requirements. Even in situations where the
= new, IPv6-capable devices it is typically required that the = devices network consists of only = new, IPv6-capable devices it is typically
= can communicate with the IPv4 Internet. required that the devices can communicate with the = IPv4 Internet.
= It is expected that after a period of supporting both IPv4 and = IPv6, It is expected that after a = period of supporting both IPv4 and IPv6,
= IPv4 can eventually be turned off. This should happen = gradually. IPv4 can eventually be = turned off. This should happen gradually.
= For instance, a service provider network might stop providing = IPv4 For instance, a service = provider network might stop providing IPv4
= service within its own network, while still allowing its IPv6 = service within its own network, while still = allowing its IPv6
= customers to access the rest of the IPv4 Internet through overlay = or customers to access the rest of = the IPv4 Internet through overlay or
= proxy services. Regardless of progress in supporting IPv6, it = is proxy services. Regardless of = progress in supporting IPv6, it is
= widely expected that some legacy applications and some networks = will widely expected that some = legacy applications and some networks will
= continue to run only over IPv4 for many years. All deployment = continue to run only over IPv4 for many = years. All deployment
= scenarios need to deal with this situation. scenarios need to deal with this situation.
=
skipping to change at page 11, line = 51 skipping to = change at page 12, line 8
= Our final deployment model breaks the requirement that all = parties Our final deployment model = breaks the requirement that all parties
= must upgrade to IPv6 before any actual communications use IPv6. = This must upgrade to IPv6 before = any actual communications use IPv6. This
= model makes sense when the following conditions are met: = model makes sense when the following = conditions are met:
= o There is a fact or requirement that there be an IPv4-only = domain o There is a fact or = requirement that there be an IPv4-only domain
= and an IPv6-only domain. and = an IPv6-only domain.
= o There is a requirement that hosts in the IPv4-only domain = access o There is a requirement = that hosts in the IPv4-only domain access
= servers or peers in the IPv6-only domain and vice versa. = servers or peers in the IPv6-only domain = and vice versa.
This is enhanced when the network operator is able to = select user
devices and applications, enabling him to ensure = that any
communication exchange is in fact predictable and = translatable. In
such a case, full interoperability can be expected = for those
applications the walled garden = enables.
=
= When we say "IPv4-only" or "IPv6-only", we mean that the = applications When we say = "IPv4-only" or "IPv6-only", we mean that the applications
= can communicate only using IPv4 or IPv6; this might be due to lack = of can communicate only using IPv4 = or IPv6; this might be due to lack of
= capabilities in the applications, host stacks, or the network; = the capabilities in the = applications, host stacks, or the network; the
= effect is the same. The reason to switch to an IPv6-only network = may effect is the same. The reason = to switch to an IPv6-only network may
= be a desire to test such a configuration, or to simplify the = network. be a desire to test such a = configuration, or to simplify the network.
= It is expected that as IPv6 deployment progresses, the second = reason It is expected that as IPv6 = deployment progresses, the second reason
= will become more prevalent. One particular reason for considering = an will become more prevalent. One = particular reason for considering an
= IPv6-only domain is the effect of overlapping private address = space IPv6-only domain is the = effect of overlapping private address space
= to applications. This is important in networks that have = exhausted to applications. This is = important in networks that have exhausted
= both public and private IPv4 address space and where arranging = an both public and private IPv4 = address space and where arranging an
 End of changes. 8 change blocks. 
14 lines changed or = deleted 24 lines changed or = added

This = html diff was produced by rfcdiff 1.38. The latest version is available = from http://tools.ietf.org/to= ols/rfcdiff/
=20 =20

= --Apple-Mail-180--841158546-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Sat Aug 21 11:14:47 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61F193A68A7 for ; Sat, 21 Aug 2010 11:14:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.878 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.878 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.384, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Y-NVOcGoJn17 for ; Sat, 21 Aug 2010 11:14:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EC513A680D for ; Sat, 21 Aug 2010 11:14:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OmsWl-000OBt-Et for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Sat, 21 Aug 2010 18:10:47 +0000 Received: from [209.85.213.52] (helo=mail-yw0-f52.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OmsWe-000O9Z-Gl for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Sat, 21 Aug 2010 18:10:41 +0000 Received: by ywo32 with SMTP id 32so78831ywo.11 for ; Sat, 21 Aug 2010 11:10:39 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:received:in-reply-to :references:date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=nlrcUswgF7eCZmBQvmVSXmCcganNik3hMfYNBiQm8Ss=; b=ujHIshrnBOKAGtzKhym5H5sMPyaMni3XApUC3lG9dEP8ANZO7zGtEOFNbYXP/GFtDp bM3dDo+XFKZDz+VdlU3756rfmBeSgiZTSnMp29rnbhQ3cVnc/gIOvGtv+dbpD2kRWFUT BCujoO1npCfeNjTBCc69RE6v1l23DmCU+R3Rg= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; b=o+ylzBLI/4X6PBTmYIRWxtjB8WHaAdQZLaEWfyg0ImqFIxguk1tkDY/m46/RXaFYsp 5e02DuMBnNt6loblS4/j1lZtYdPqrZgqwv96SKz7+0ZCH3TULNXq/Y6t43KVzmeVpscG ++FR/xX3bQUhIvZ+fzgOELoZBPzuy2QTD+NO4= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.150.161.9 with SMTP id j9mr3455146ybe.201.1282414239395; Sat, 21 Aug 2010 11:10:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.189.4 with HTTP; Sat, 21 Aug 2010 11:10:39 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <080C7326-64E4-4562-98DA-70676636B464@cisco.com> References: <080C7326-64E4-4562-98DA-70676636B464@cisco.com> Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 11:10:39 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Diff: draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines-05.txt - transition-guideline.txt From: Cameron Byrne To: Fred Baker Cc: Hui Deng , IPv6 v6ops , v4tov6transition@ietf.org, Jari Arkko , Kurt Erik Lindqvist , Ron Bonica Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=000e0cd5cbf231afc1048e595563 Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: --000e0cd5cbf231afc1048e595563 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Fred, We are getting very close and i appreciate you taking the time. I hope it is clear that in the 3GPP context, the network is the easy part and generally just works. The hard part is engineering the service (NAT64, ...) to the end host. Here is my feedback. "Mobile telephone network operators, especially those using LTE, have seriously considered IPv6-only operation, and some have deployed it" --please replaces "LTE" with "3GPP". LTE is a specific radio technology, but it is the 3GPP packet core architecture that allows easy IPv6 deployments in 2G, 3G, and 4G all the same. The deployment that i have today at T-Mobile USA is 2G/3G with IPv6-only + NAT64 service. "full interoperability can be expected for those applications the walled garden enables" -- Please remove "for those applications the walled garden enables." These were not constraints that Jari specified, he did not use the term walled garden, and the constraints specified in the previous few sentences about specifically selecting applications and services adequately set the context. If we can make these changes, i will be very happy with this draft. Once again, thanks for your patience. Cameron On Sat, Aug 21, 2010 at 9:38 AM, Fred Baker wrote: > Cameron: > > Does the following address your concerns? > > Fred > > > > < > draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines-05.txt > transition-guideline.txt Network Working Group J. Arkko Network > Working Group J. Arkko Internet-Draft Ericsson Internet-Draft Ericsson Intended > status: Informational F. Baker Intended status: Informational F. Baker Expires: > February 21, 2011 Cisco Systems Expires: February 22, 2011 Cisco Systems August > 20, 2010 August 21, 2010 Guidelines for Using IPv6 Transition Mechanisms > during IPv6 Deployment Guidelines for Using IPv6 Transition Mechanisms > during IPv6 Deployment draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines-05 > draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines-06 Abstract Abstract The Internet > continues to grow beyond the capabilities of IPv4. An The Internet > continues to grow beyond the capabilities of IPv4. An expansion in the > address space is clearly required. With its expansion in the address space > is clearly required. With its increase in the number of available prefixes > and addresses in a increase in the number of available prefixes and > addresses in a subnet, and improvements in address management, IPv6 is the > only real subnet, and improvements in address management, IPv6 is the only > real option on the table. Yet, IPv6 deployment requires some effort, option > on the table. Yet, IPv6 deployment requires some effort, resources, and > expertise. The availability of many different resources, and expertise. > The availability of many different deployment models is one reason why > expertise is required. This deployment models is one reason why expertise > is required. This skipping to change at* page 1, line 40* skipping to > change at* page 1, line 40* Internet-Drafts are working documents of the > Internet Engineering Internet-Drafts are working documents of the Internet > Engineering Task Force (IETF). Note that other groups may also distribute Task > Force (IETF). Note that other groups may also distribute working documents > as Internet-Drafts. The list of current Internet- working documents as > Internet-Drafts. The list of current Internet- Drafts is at > http://datatracker.ietf.org/drafts/current/. Drafts is at > http://datatracker.ietf.org/drafts/current/. Internet-Drafts are draft > documents valid for a maximum of six months Internet-Drafts are draft > documents valid for a maximum of six months and may be updated, replaced, > or obsoleted by other documents at any and may be updated, replaced, or > obsoleted by other documents at any time. It is inappropriate to use > Internet-Drafts as reference time. It is inappropriate to use > Internet-Drafts as reference material or to cite them other than as "work > in progress." material or to cite them other than as "work in progress." This Internet-Draft will expire on February 2 > 1, 2011. This Internet-Draft will expire on February 22, 2011. Copyright > Notice Copyright Notice Copyright (c) 2010 IETF Trust and the persons > identified as the Copyright (c) 2010 IETF Trust and the persons identified > as the document authors. All rights reserved. document authors. All rights > reserved. This document is subject to BCP 78 and the IETF Trust's Legal This > document is subject to BCP 78 and the IETF Trust's Legal Provisions > Relating to IETF Documents Provisions Relating to IETF Documents ( > http://trustee.ietf.org/license-info) in effect on the date of ( > http://trustee.ietf.org/license-info) in effect on the date of publication > of this document. Please review these documents publication of this > document. Please review these documents skipping to change at* page 2, > line 24* skipping to change at* page 2, line 24* 2. Terminology . . . . . > . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 2. Terminology . . . . . . . . . > . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 3. Principles . . . . . . . . . . . . . > . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 3. Principles . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . > . . . . . . . . . . 4 3.1. Goals . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . > . . . . . 5 3.1. Goals . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . > 5 3.2. Choosing a Deployment Model . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 3.2. > Choosing a Deployment Model . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 4. Guidelines > for IPv6 Deployment . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 4. Guidelines for > IPv6 Deployment . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 4.1. Native Dual Stack . > . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 4.1. Native Dual Stack . . . . . . > . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 4.2. Crossing IPv4 Islands . . . . . . . . . > . . . . . . . . . 10 4.2. Crossing IPv4 Islands . . . . . . . . . . . . . > . . . . . 10 4.3. IPv6-Only Core Network . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . > . 11 4.3. IPv6-Only Core Network . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 11 4.4. > IPv6-only Deployment . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 11 4.4. > IPv6-only Deployment . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 11 5. Further > Reading . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 13 5. Further > Reading . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 13 6. Security > Considerations . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 13 6. Security > Considerations . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 14 7. IANA > Considerations . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 14 7. IANA > Considerations . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 14 8. References > . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 14 8. References . . . > . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 14 8.1. Normative References > . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 14 8.1. Normative References . . . . > . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 14 8.2. Informative References . . . . . . > . . . . . . . . . . . . 14 8.2. Informative References . . . . . . . . . . > . . . . . . . . 15 Appendix A. Acknowledgments . . . . . . . . . . . . . . > . . . . . 17 Appendix A. Acknowledgments . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . > . . 18 Authors' Addresses . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . > 18 Authors' Addresses . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 18 1. > Introduction 1. Introduction The Internet continues to grow beyond the > capabilities of IPv4. The The Internet continues to grow beyond the > capabilities of IPv4. The tremendous success of the Internet has strained > the IPv4 address tremendous success of the Internet has strained the IPv4 > address space, which is no longer sufficient to fuel future growth. At the space, > which is no longer sufficient to fuel future growth. At the time of this > writing, August 2010, the IANA "free pool" contains only time of this > writing, August 2010, the IANA "free pool" contains only 14 unallocated > unicast IPv4 /8 prefixes. Credible estimates based on 14 unallocated > unicast IPv4 /8 prefixes. Credible estimates based on past behavior > suggest that the RIRs will exhaust their remaining past behavior suggest > that the RIRs will exhaust their remaining skipping to change at* page 5, > line 49* skipping to change at* page 5, line 49* particular advantage to > avoiding dealing with IPv6 as a part the particular advantage to avoiding > dealing with IPv6 as a part the normal network planning cycle. The > migration tools already exist, normal network planning cycle. The > migration tools already exist, and while additional features continue to > be developed it is not and while additional features continue to be > developed it is not expected that they radically change what networks have > to do. In expected that they radically change what networks have to do. In other > words, there is no point in waiting for an improved design. other words, > there is no point in waiting for an improved design. There are only a few > exceptional networks where co-existence with There are only a few > exceptional networks where co-existence with IPv4 is not a consideration > at all. These networks are typically new IPv4 is not a consideration at > all. These networks are typically new deployments, strictly controlled by > a central authority, and have no deployments, strictly controlled by a > central authority, and have no need to deal with legacy devices. For > example, specialized machine- need to deal with legacy devices. For > example, specialized machine- to-machine networks that communicate only > to designated servers can to-machine networks that communicate only to > designated servers, such easily be deployed as IPv6-only networks. In most > other networks as Smart Grids, can easily be deployed as IPv6-only > networks. Mobile telephone network operators, especially those using LTE, > have seriously considered IPv6-only operation, and some have deployed it. Research networks that can be separated from the IPv4 Internet to find out what happens are also a candidate.In most other networks IPv4 > has to be considered. A typical requirement is that older, IPv4 has to be > considered. A typical requirement is that older, IPv4-only devices must > be accommodated. Most networks that cross IPv4-only applications, systems, > or services must be accommodated. administrative boundaries or allow end > user equipment have such Most networks that cross administrative > boundaries or allow end user requirements. Even in situations where the > network consists of only equipment have such requirements. Even in > situations where the new, IPv6-capable devices it is typically required > that the devices network consists of only new, IPv6-capable devices it is > typically can communicate with the IPv4 Internet. required that the > devices can communicate with the IPv4 Internet. It is expected that after > a period of supporting both IPv4 and IPv6, It is expected that after a > period of supporting both IPv4 and IPv6, IPv4 can eventually be turned > off. This should happen gradually. IPv4 can eventually be turned off. This > should happen gradually. For instance, a service provider network might > stop providing IPv4 For instance, a service provider network might stop > providing IPv4 service within its own network, while still allowing its > IPv6 service within its own network, while still allowing its IPv6 customers > to access the rest of the IPv4 Internet through overlay or customers to > access the rest of the IPv4 Internet through overlay or proxy services. > Regardless of progress in supporting IPv6, it is proxy services. > Regardless of progress in supporting IPv6, it is widely expected that some > legacy applications and some networks will widely expected that some > legacy applications and some networks will continue to run only over IPv4 > for many years. All deployment continue to run only over IPv4 for many > years. All deployment scenarios need to deal with this situation. scenarios > need to deal with this situation. skipping to change at* page 11, line 51 > * skipping to change at* page 12, line 8* Our final deployment model > breaks the requirement that all parties Our final deployment model breaks > the requirement that all parties must upgrade to IPv6 before any actual > communications use IPv6. This must upgrade to IPv6 before any actual > communications use IPv6. This model makes sense when the following > conditions are met: model makes sense when the following conditions are > met: o There is a fact or requirement that there be an IPv4-only domain o > There is a fact or requirement that there be an IPv4-only domain and an > IPv6-only domain. and an IPv6-only domain. o There is a requirement that > hosts in the IPv4-only domain access o There is a requirement that hosts > in the IPv4-only domain access servers or peers in the IPv6-only domain > and vice versa. servers or peers in the IPv6-only domain and vice versa. This > is enhanced when the network operator is able to select user devices and > applications, enabling him to ensure that any communication exchange is > in fact predictable and translatable. In such a case, full > interoperability can be expected for those applications the walled garden > enables. When we say "IPv4-only" or "IPv6-only", we mean that the > applications When we say "IPv4-only" or "IPv6-only", we mean that the > applications can communicate only using IPv4 or IPv6; this might be due to > lack of can communicate only using IPv4 or IPv6; this might be due to lack > of capabilities in the applications, host stacks, or the network; the capabilities > in the applications, host stacks, or the network; the effect is the same. > The reason to switch to an IPv6-only network may effect is the same. The > reason to switch to an IPv6-only network may be a desire to test such a > configuration, or to simplify the network. be a desire to test such a > configuration, or to simplify the network. It is expected that as IPv6 > deployment progresses, the second reason It is expected that as IPv6 > deployment progresses, the second reason will become more prevalent. One > particular reason for considering an will become more prevalent. One > particular reason for considering an IPv6-only domain is the effect of > overlapping private address space IPv6-only domain is the effect of > overlapping private address space to applications. This is important in > networks that have exhausted to applications. This is important in > networks that have exhausted both public and private IPv4 address space > and where arranging an both public and private IPv4 address space and > where arranging an End of changes. 8 change blocks. *14 lines changed > or deleted** **24 lines changed or added* > This html diff was produced by rfcdiff 1.38. The latest version is > available from http://tools.ietf.org/tools/rfcdiff/ > > --000e0cd5cbf231afc1048e595563 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Fred,

We are getting very close and i appreciate you taking the time= .=A0 I hope it is clear that in the 3GPP context, the network is the easy p= art and generally just works. The hard part is engineering the service (NAT= 64, ...) to the end host.

Here is my feedback.

"Mobile telephone network operators, e= specially those using LTE, have seriously considered IPv6-only operation, a= nd some have deployed it"

--please replaces "LTE" wit= h "3GPP".=A0 LTE is a specific radio technology, but it is the 3G= PP packet core architecture that allows easy IPv6 deployments in 2G, 3G, an= d 4G all the same.=A0 The deployment that i have today at T-Mobile USA is 2= G/3G with IPv6-only + NAT64 service.

=A0"full interoperability can be expected for those applications t= he walled garden enables"

-- Please remove "for those appl= ications the walled garden enables."=A0 These were not constraints tha= t Jari specified, he did not use the term walled garden, and the constraint= s specified in the previous few sentences about specifically selecting appl= ications and services adequately set the context.

If we can make these changes, i will be very happy with this draft.
=
Once again, thanks for your patience.

Cameron


On Sat, Aug 21, 2010 at 9:38 AM, Fred Baker <fred@cisco.com> wrote:
=20 =20 =20 =20 =20
Cameron:

Does the following address your concerns?

Fred



=20 =20 =20
<=A0= draft-arkko-ip= v6-transition-guidelines-05.txt=A0 =A0transition-guideline.txt=A0
Network Working Group = J. Arkko Network Working Group= J. Arkko
Internet-Draft = Ericsson Internet-Draft = Ericsson
Intended status: Informational = F. Baker Intended status: Info= rmational F. Baker
Expires: February 21, 20= 11 Cisco Systems Expires:= February 22, 2011 Cisco Syste= ms
= August 20, 2010 = August 21, 20= 10
Guidelines for Using IPv6 Transition= Mechanisms during IPv6 Deployment Guidelines for Using = IPv6 Transition Mechanisms during IPv6 Deployment
draft-arkko-ipv6-trans= ition-guidelines-05 draft-ark= ko-ipv6-transition-guidelines-06
Abstract Abstract
The Internet continues to grow bey= ond the capabilities of IPv4. An The Internet continu= es to grow beyond the capabilities of IPv4. An
expansion in the address space is = clearly required. With its expansion in the address s= pace is clearly required. With its
increase in the number of availabl= e prefixes and addresses in a increase in the number o= f available prefixes and addresses in a
subnet, and improvements in addres= s management, IPv6 is the only real subnet, and improv= ements in address management, IPv6 is the only real
option on the table. Yet, IPv6 de= ployment requires some effort, option on the table. Y= et, IPv6 deployment requires some effort,
resources, and expertise. The ava= ilability of many different resources, and expertise. = The availability of many different
deployment models is one reason wh= y expertise is required. This deployment models is on= e reason why expertise is required. This
skipping to change at page 1, line 40 = skipping to change at<= /small> page 1, line 40
Internet-Drafts are working docume= nts of the Internet Engineering Internet-Drafts are wo= rking documents of the Internet Engineering
Task Force (IETF). Note that othe= r groups may also distribute Task Force (IETF). Note = that other groups may also distribute
working documents as Internet-Draf= ts. The list of current Internet- working documents a= s Internet-Drafts. The list of current Internet-
Drafts is at http://datatracker.iet= f.org/drafts/current/. Drafts is at http://datatrac= ker.ietf.org/drafts/current/.
Internet-Drafts are draft document= s valid for a maximum of six months Internet-Drafts ar= e draft documents valid for a maximum of six months
and may be updated, replaced, or o= bsoleted by other documents at any and may be updated,= replaced, or obsoleted by other documents at any
time. It is inappropriate to use = Internet-Drafts as reference time. It is inappropriat= e to use Internet-Drafts as reference
material or to cite them other tha= n as "work in progress." material or to cite= them other than as "work in progress."
This Internet-Draft will expire on= February 21, 2011. This Internet-Draft w= ill expire on February 22, 2011.
Copyright Notice Co= pyright Notice
Copyright (c) 2010 IETF Trust and = the persons identified as the Copyright (c) 2010 IETF = Trust and the persons identified as the
document authors. All rights rese= rved. document authors. All rights reserved.
This document is subject to BCP 78= and the IETF Trust's Legal This document is subje= ct to BCP 78 and the IETF Trust's Legal
Provisions Relating to IETF Docume= nts Provisions Relating to IETF Documents
(http://trustee.ietf.org/license-info)= in effect on the date of (http://trustee.ietf.org/license-inf= o) in effect on the date of
publication of this document. Ple= ase review these documents publication of this documen= t. Please review these documents
skipping to change at page 2, line 24 = skipping to change at<= /small> page 2, line 24
2. Terminology . . . . . . . . .= . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 2. Terminology .= . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4
3. Principles . . . . . . . . . .= . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 3. Principles . .= . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4
3.1. Goals . . . . . . . . . .= . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 3.1. Goals . .= . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5
3.2. Choosing a Deployment Mode= l . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 3.2. Choosing a= Deployment Model . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6
4. Guidelines for IPv6 Deployment= . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 4. Guidelines for= IPv6 Deployment . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7
4.1. Native Dual Stack . . . .= . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 4.1. Native Dua= l Stack . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8
4.2. Crossing IPv4 Islands . .= . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 10 4.2. Crossing I= Pv4 Islands . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 10
4.3. IPv6-Only Core Network . .= . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 11 4.3. IPv6-Only = Core Network . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 11
4.4. IPv6-only Deployment . . .= . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 11 4.4. IPv6-only = Deployment . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 11
5. Further Reading . . . . . . .= . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 13 5. Further Readin= g . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 13
6. Security Considerations . . .= . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 13 6. S= ecurity Considerations . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 14
7. IANA Considerations . . . . .= . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 14 7. IANA Considera= tions . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 14
8. References . . . . . . . . . .= . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 14 8. References . .= . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 14
8.1. Normative References . . .= . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 14 8.1. Normative = References . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 14
8.2. Informative References . .= . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 14 8.2= . Informative References . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 15
Appendix A. Acknowledgments . . .= . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 17 Appen= dix A. Acknowledgments . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 18
Authors' Addresses . . . . . .= . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 18 Authors' A= ddresses . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 18
1. Introduction 1.= Introduction
The Internet continues to grow bey= ond the capabilities of IPv4. The The Internet contin= ues to grow beyond the capabilities of IPv4. The
tremendous success of the Internet= has strained the IPv4 address tremendous success of t= he Internet has strained the IPv4 address
space, which is no longer sufficie= nt to fuel future growth. At the space, which is no l= onger sufficient to fuel future growth. At the
time of this writing, August 2010,= the IANA "free pool" contains only time of = this writing, August 2010, the IANA "free pool" contains only
14 unallocated unicast IPv4 /8 pre= fixes. Credible estimates based on 14 unallocated uni= cast IPv4 /8 prefixes. Credible estimates based on
past behavior suggest that the RIR= s will exhaust their remaining past behavior suggest t= hat the RIRs will exhaust their remaining
skipping to change at page 5, line 49 = skipping to change at<= /small> page 5, line 49
particular advantage to avoiding d= ealing with IPv6 as a part the particular advantage to= avoiding dealing with IPv6 as a part the
normal network planning cycle. Th= e migration tools already exist, normal network planni= ng cycle. The migration tools already exist,
and while additional features cont= inue to be developed it is not and while additional fe= atures continue to be developed it is not
expected that they radically chang= e what networks have to do. In expected that they rad= ically change what networks have to do. In
other words, there is no point in = waiting for an improved design. other words, there is = no point in waiting for an improved design.
There are only a few exceptional n= etworks where co-existence with There are only a few e= xceptional networks where co-existence with
IPv4 is not a consideration at all= . These networks are typically new IPv4 is not a cons= ideration at all. These networks are typically new
deployments, strictly controlled b= y a central authority, and have no deployments, strict= ly controlled by a central authority, and have no
need to deal with legacy devices. = For example, specialized machine- need to deal with l= egacy devices. For example, specialized machine-
to-machine networks that communica= te only to designated servers can to-mach= ine networks that communicate only to designated servers, such=
easily be deployed as IPv6-only ne= tworks. In most other networks as Smart Grids,<= /span> can easily be deployed as IPv6-only networks. Mobile
telephone= network operators, especially those using LTE, have
seriously= considered IPv6-only operation, and some have deployed it.
Research = networks that can be separated from the IPv4 Internet to
find out = what happens are also a candidate. In most other networks
IPv4 has to be considered. A typi= cal requirement is that older, IPv4 has to be consider= ed. A typical requirement is that older,
IPv4-only devices mus= t be accommodated. Most networks that cross IPv4-only= applications, systems, or services must be accommodated.
administrative boundaries or allow= end user equipment have such Most networks that cross= administrative boundaries or allow end user
requirements. Even in situations = where the network consists of only equipment have such= requirements. Even in situations where the
new, IPv6-capable devices it is ty= pically required that the devices network consists of = only new, IPv6-capable devices it is typically
can communicate with the IPv4 Inte= rnet. required that the devices can communicate with t= he IPv4 Internet.
It is expected that after a period= of supporting both IPv4 and IPv6, It is expected that= after a period of supporting both IPv4 and IPv6,
IPv4 can eventually be turned off.= This should happen gradually. IPv4 can eventually be= turned off. This should happen gradually.
For instance, a service provider n= etwork might stop providing IPv4 For instance, a servi= ce provider network might stop providing IPv4
service within its own network, wh= ile still allowing its IPv6 service within its own net= work, while still allowing its IPv6
customers to access the rest of th= e IPv4 Internet through overlay or customers to access= the rest of the IPv4 Internet through overlay or
proxy services. Regardless of pro= gress in supporting IPv6, it is proxy services. Regar= dless of progress in supporting IPv6, it is
widely expected that some legacy a= pplications and some networks will widely expected tha= t some legacy applications and some networks will
continue to run only over IPv4 for= many years. All deployment continue to run only over= IPv4 for many years. All deployment
scenarios need to deal with this s= ituation. scenarios need to deal with this situation.<= /td>
skipping to change at page 11, line 51= skipping to change at= page 12, line 8
Our final deployment model breaks = the requirement that all parties Our final deployment = model breaks the requirement that all parties
must upgrade to IPv6 before any ac= tual communications use IPv6. This must upgrade to IP= v6 before any actual communications use IPv6. This
model makes sense when the followi= ng conditions are met: model makes sense when the foll= owing conditions are met:
o There is a fact or requirement = that there be an IPv4-only domain o There is a fact o= r requirement that there be an IPv4-only domain
and an IPv6-only domain. and an IPv6-only domain.
o There is a requirement that hos= ts in the IPv4-only domain access o There is a requir= ement that hosts in the IPv4-only domain access
servers or peers in the IPv6-on= ly domain and vice versa. servers or peers in the I= Pv6-only domain and vice versa.
This is e= nhanced when the network operator is able to select user
devices a= nd applications, enabling him to ensure that any
communica= tion exchange is in fact predictable and translatable. In
such a ca= se, full interoperability can be expected for those
applicati= ons the walled garden enables.
=
When we say "IPv4-only" = or "IPv6-only", we mean that the applications = When we say "IPv4-only" or "IPv6-only", we mean that = the applications
can communicate only using IPv4 or= IPv6; this might be due to lack of can communicate on= ly using IPv4 or IPv6; this might be due to lack of
capabilities in the applications, = host stacks, or the network; the capabilities in the a= pplications, host stacks, or the network; the
effect is the same. The reason to= switch to an IPv6-only network may effect is the same= . The reason to switch to an IPv6-only network may
be a desire to test such a configu= ration, or to simplify the network. be a desire to tes= t such a configuration, or to simplify the network.
It is expected that as IPv6 deploy= ment progresses, the second reason It is expected that= as IPv6 deployment progresses, the second reason
will become more prevalent. One p= articular reason for considering an will become more p= revalent. One particular reason for considering an
IPv6-only domain is the effect of = overlapping private address space IPv6-only domain is = the effect of overlapping private address space
to applications. This is importan= t in networks that have exhausted to applications. Th= is is important in networks that have exhausted
both public and private IPv4 addre= ss space and where arranging an both public and privat= e IPv4 address space and where arranging an
=A0End of changes. 8 change blocks.=A0
14 lines changed or deleted 24 lines changed or added

This html diff was produced= by rfcdiff 1.38. The latest version is available from http://tools.ietf.org/to= ols/rfcdiff/
=20 =20


--000e0cd5cbf231afc1048e595563-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Sat Aug 21 15:39:43 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72AB83A6845 for ; Sat, 21 Aug 2010 15:39:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.131 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.131 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.236, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, J_CHICKENPOX_13=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eJBoi+QXjAI7 for ; Sat, 21 Aug 2010 15:39:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9BA563A686B for ; Sat, 21 Aug 2010 15:39:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Omwde-00093H-GK for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Sat, 21 Aug 2010 22:34:10 +0000 Received: from [64.18.2.206] (helo=exprod7og126.obsmtp.com) by psg.com with smtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Omwdc-00092V-AG for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Sat, 21 Aug 2010 22:34:08 +0000 Received: from source ([66.129.224.36]) (using TLSv1) by exprod7ob126.postini.com ([64.18.6.12]) with SMTP ID DSNKTHBUUTVpc3XmrOh4gamMpeOVj2NyEbrm@postini.com; Sat, 21 Aug 2010 15:34:01 PDT Received: from p-emfe02-wf.jnpr.net (172.28.145.25) by P-EMHUB01-HQ.jnpr.net (172.24.192.35) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.2.254.0; Sat, 21 Aug 2010 15:20:49 -0700 Received: from EMBX01-WF.jnpr.net ([fe80::1914:3299:33d9:e43b]) by p-emfe02-wf.jnpr.net ([fe80::c126:c633:d2dc:8090%11]) with mapi; Sat, 21 Aug 2010 18:20:48 -0400 From: Ronald Bonica To: "v6ops@ops.ietf.org" CC: "fred.baker@cisco.com" , "kurtis@kurtis.pp.se" , Joel Jaeggli , IETF Secretariat Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 18:20:38 -0400 Subject: WG Chairs Thread-Topic: WG Chairs Thread-Index: ActBfxVB5Ng+K6TzR+ezBxXAQG9EYQ== Message-ID: <13205C286662DE4387D9AF3AC30EF456B00B281AB0@EMBX01-WF.jnpr.net> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-cr-hashedpuzzle: IEkc OvEX PZF4 RVMy SHVf abpL nJr3 o/Vv qSO8 qga7 tKiW t8NT uooE vD3M x5ZR zN+e;5;ZgByAGUAZAAuAGIAYQBrAGUAcgBAAGMAaQBzAGMAbwAuAGMAbwBtADsAaQBlAHQAZgAtAHMAZQBjAHIAZQB0AGEAcgBpAGEAdABAAGkAZQB0AGYALgBvAHIAZwA7AGoAbwBlAGwAagBhAEAAYgBvAGcAdQBzAC4AYwBvAG0AOwBrAHUAcgB0AGkAcwBAAGsAdQByAHQAaQBzAC4AcABwAC4AcwBlADsAdgA2AG8AcABzAEAAbwBwAHMALgBpAGUAdABmAC4AbwByAGcA;Sosha1_v1;7;{251FEBF0-DDBA-4EC5-999C-73880154574E};cgBiAG8AbgBpAGMAYQBAAGoAdQBuAGkAcABlAHIALgBuAGUAdAA=;Sat, 21 Aug 2010 22:20:38 GMT;VwBHACAAQwBoAGEAaQByAHMA x-cr-puzzleid: {251FEBF0-DDBA-4EC5-999C-73880154574E} acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: Folks, I am pleased to announce that Joel Jaeggli will be joining Fred Baker and K= urt Lindqvist as v6ops co-chair. Please join me in welcoming Joel to this n= ew position. Ron Bonica Co-chair, IETF O&M Area From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Sat Aug 21 15:51:50 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 127583A685A for ; Sat, 21 Aug 2010 15:51:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -108.792 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-108.792 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.897, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, J_CHICKENPOX_13=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, RDNS_NONE=0.1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pRVxSHLeKEL7 for ; Sat, 21 Aug 2010 15:51:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 208F63A6845 for ; Sat, 21 Aug 2010 15:51:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OmwtI-000Awa-Mp for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Sat, 21 Aug 2010 22:50:20 +0000 Received: from [171.71.176.117] (helo=sj-iport-6.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OmwtG-000AwM-N2 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Sat, 21 Aug 2010 22:50:18 +0000 Authentication-Results: sj-iport-6.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.56,248,1280707200"; d="scan'208";a="576916268" Received: from sj-core-2.cisco.com ([171.71.177.254]) by sj-iport-6.cisco.com with ESMTP; 21 Aug 2010 22:50:18 +0000 Received: from stealth-10-32-244-218.cisco.com (stealth-10-32-244-218.cisco.com [10.32.244.218]) by sj-core-2.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o7LMo9ON007414; Sat, 21 Aug 2010 22:50:11 GMT Received: from [127.0.0.1] by stealth-10-32-244-218.cisco.com (PGP Universal service); Sat, 21 Aug 2010 15:50:18 -0700 X-PGP-Universal: processed; by stealth-10-32-244-218.cisco.com on Sat, 21 Aug 2010 15:50:18 -0700 Subject: Re: WG Chairs Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1081) From: Fred Baker In-Reply-To: <13205C286662DE4387D9AF3AC30EF456B00B281AB0@EMBX01-WF.jnpr.net> Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 15:50:03 -0700 Cc: IPv6 v6ops , Fred Baker , Ronald Bonica , Kurt Erik Lindqvist , IETF Secretariat Message-Id: <2CB7DD70-6F7D-43B3-A578-9FF48FE75C1E@cisco.com> References: <13205C286662DE4387D9AF3AC30EF456B00B281AB0@EMBX01-WF.jnpr.net> To: Joel Jaeggli X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1081) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: Welcome aboard, Joel! On Aug 21, 2010, at 3:20 PM, Ronald Bonica wrote: > Folks, >=20 > I am pleased to announce that Joel Jaeggli will be joining Fred Baker = and Kurt Lindqvist as v6ops co-chair. Please join me in welcoming Joel = to this new position. >=20 > Ron Bonica > Co-chair, IETF O&M Area >=20 From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Sat Aug 21 17:08:44 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C2463A680B for ; Sat, 21 Aug 2010 17:08:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.903 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.903 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.232, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_EQ_AU=0.377, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 92tzla4GB3He for ; Sat, 21 Aug 2010 17:08:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D49E93A6403 for ; Sat, 21 Aug 2010 17:08:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Omy3C-000JnB-Iv for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Sun, 22 Aug 2010 00:04:38 +0000 Received: from [202.136.110.251] (helo=smtp2.adam.net.au) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Omy39-000JmR-2W; Sun, 22 Aug 2010 00:04:35 +0000 Received: from 182-239-154-130.ip.adam.com.au ([182.239.154.130] helo=opy.nosense.org) by smtp2.adam.net.au with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1Omy31-0008Sr-Gf; Sun, 22 Aug 2010 09:34:27 +0930 Received: from opy.nosense.org (localhost.localdomain [IPv6:::1]) by opy.nosense.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B6593B31E; Sun, 22 Aug 2010 09:30:57 +0930 (CST) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 09:30:56 +0930 From: Mark Smith To: Miya Kohno Cc: Randy Bush , , Subject: Re: ping-pong phenomenon with p2p links & /127 prefixes Message-ID: <20100822093056.3bd9710b@opy.nosense.org> In-Reply-To: References: <4C68FD84.80905@unfix.org> <20100816.111224.41652855.sthaug@nethelp.no> <4C690673.1040400@unfix.org> <20100816.114110.71111142.sthaug@nethelp.no> <4C69085A.1040706@unfix.org> <20100816230806.629c633a@opy.nosense.org> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.7.6 (GTK+ 2.20.1; x86_64-unknown-linux-gnu) X-Location: Lower Mitcham, South Australia, 5062 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: Hi Miya, On Thu, 19 Aug 2010 20:56:57 +0800 Miya Kohno wrote: > > > then you will join us supporting the /127 document and it won't be a > > > problem, will it. > > > > > > > Why won't you and the other authors do a proper job with it then? It > > doesn't address all the implications that arise. It should, point by > > point address, all the issues in RFC3627. It should address the points > > I raised here 2 weeks ago. It doesn't read to me as a proper > > justification of why the RFCs it contradicts should be contradicted. > > e.g. Where is the text explaining the implications to bits 70 and 71, > > if there are any, and do they need to be managed, and if so, how? > > *Except /127*, we support rfc3627 and the appendix B.2 of rfc5375. They > have properly addressed the implication for using longer prefix than > /64. > So where is there reference to Appendix B.2 of RFC5375 in the /127 draft? The draft does not mention anything about the 70/71 bit issue, and that RFC5375, section B 2.4, discusses what to do about it. I happen to be a contributor to that RFC, so I've read it at least twice, and I've forgotten that it is there. What about the people who haven't read it at all? (A reference to "B.2" isn't any good - when I first went to that section I came across the B.2.2 text saying /127s shouldn't be used - and that made me quite confused about what you've said above) RFC3627 effectively provides a minimum checklist of the implications that need to be specifically addressed in the /127 draft for /127s to be accepted. If the /127 draft was published as an RFC, it shouldn't be possible for a reader, who's deciding whether to adopt /127s or not, has read RFC3627, and is now reading the /127 RFC, to say "so what about this issue identified in RFC3627?" Regards, Mark. From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Sat Aug 21 18:06:44 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 223423A6832 for ; Sat, 21 Aug 2010 18:06:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.126 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.126 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.631, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BVnu0iXV1h4q for ; Sat, 21 Aug 2010 18:06:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD9733A6359 for ; Sat, 21 Aug 2010 18:06:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Omyye-0001Or-AP for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Sun, 22 Aug 2010 01:04:00 +0000 Received: from [74.125.83.66] (helo=mail-gw0-f66.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Omyya-0001OV-TI for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Sun, 22 Aug 2010 01:03:57 +0000 Received: by gwb11 with SMTP id 11so897407gwb.5 for ; Sat, 21 Aug 2010 18:03:56 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:sender:message-id:date:from :user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:x-enigmail-version:openpgp :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=S8MZ/En7hmMF4LXfzDzGP+QvbZPRnHbz38CAXLfssTI=; b=dfuAw6l2peUXDqUR1dq96oAea9ePR6U3f8ZWiNIegB65A8cgovejLJXaSW22EZPT3o FdeWm9JwX4jlOUgrF64uglbYZLVFaTsypMqFp3k5eWP32mY/s+ILJvWPjAYmlWTsRmBq SVUKHQSNiygidnKt0ovqyG6u56SHIyru9hQWo= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=sender:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject :x-enigmail-version:openpgp:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=cpvxSt7ZifP9fbFQTK5gfnDjkMk16miTVOj5Y8oZY93UfUa1D7nRI5eUiZ87f9H7a0 AP3PILUWS8jZ1pzOrNDuZUnePOi3TEt49r+TTKN5E6rkTQ/phWOfxs3XWF+HAn0O/2/Z lhjeWK5vb0EpL6exdUQX57HEakpP/lxvty8Yk= Received: by 10.151.133.15 with SMTP id k15mr3746882ybn.78.1282439035998; Sat, 21 Aug 2010 18:03:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.100] ([190.245.183.71]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id q31sm5613214ybk.13.2010.08.21.18.03.53 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Sat, 21 Aug 2010 18:03:55 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4C707777.6000309@gont.com.ar> Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 22:03:51 -0300 From: Fernando Gont User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.24 (Windows/20100228) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "v6ops@ops.ietf.org" CC: Suresh Krishnan , Dave Thaler , Jim_Hoagland@symantec.com Subject: Questions/comments about draft-krishnan-v6ops-teredo-update-10 X-Enigmail-Version: 0.96.0 OpenPGP: id=D076FFF1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: Folks, I have a few comments/questions about the aforementioned I-D. I realize that these comments may be late in terms of the IETF-process (the I-D has been approved by the IESG?), but nevertheless I'm interested in discussing these issues. ** Meta-question: It's not very clear to me if it buys anything to deprecate the cone bit. Let's put the random bits aside for a second (as their use is orthogonal to the "cone bit" issue). If an attacker knows the address of an existing Teredo client, he could e.g. send a packet to that Teredo address from an arbitrary IP address, and wait for a response. If the NAT e.g. sends an ICMP error message in response to packets for which there's no corresponding mapping, then the attacker could easily learn whether that node is behind a cone nat or not. Alternately, an attacker could scan the mapped IPv4 address through the corresponding Teredo server (provided all Teredo nodes behind that NAT use that Teredo server), by sending bubble packets. Then he wouldn't care about whether the cone bit is set or not, because his packets would nevertheless get to the Teredo node (as they'd be relayed by the Teredo server). Finally, one might argue that by deprecating the "cone bit", you actually *remove* one bit from the search space (as nodes could set the cone bit to 0 even if they were behind a cone nat). So I'm not sure if it buys anything to deprecate the cone bit... And considering the performance implications, whether this makes sense or not. Thoughts? ** Also, if the cone bit is deprecated, then I assume that Teredo nodes implementing this document should probably implement this check: "If a packet is received from an arbitrary Teredo node, there should be an entry in the List of recent Teredo peers. This would prevent attackers from trying to contact a Teredo node directly, despite the implicit requirement in this document that a Teredo bubble be previously sent through the corresponding Teredo server before contacting a Teredo node." ** In Section 3.2, the document states: > o The cone bit in the IPv6 source address of a Router Solicitation > (RS) from a client controls what IPv4 source address the server > should use when sending a Router Advertisement (RA). If this > behavior is not preserved, legacy clients will conclude that they > are behind a cone NAT even when they are not (because the client > WILL receive the RA where previously it would not, since cone bit > set to 1 requires the server to respond from another IP address). > They will then set their cone bit and lose connectivity. I would expect the Teredo client to not only check whether the RA is received, but also check the Source Address of the RA. As a result, even if the cone bit was ignored and thus the server sent an RA with the "primary address" as the source address, the Teredo client should be able to detect this (possibly failing on the "safe" side and concluding that it is not behind a cone nat). ** Appendix B of draft-krishnan-v6ops-teredo-update-10 analyzes resistance to address prediction. It argues that the search space is 16+12 bits. However, if the target NAT is a cone nat, the attacker would not try a brute force approach. He'd first find those port numbers for which there's an existing mapping in the NAT (see above), and *only* for those ports he'd try to find the right 12 random bits that result in a valid Teredo address. So this analysis might be a bit misleading. Please let me know if I'm missing something.... Thanks! Kind regards, -- Fernando Gont e-mail: fernando@gont.com.ar || fgont@acm.org PGP Fingerprint: 7809 84F5 322E 45C7 F1C9 3945 96EE A9EF D076 FFF1 From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Sat Aug 21 19:32:32 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3FB4B3A6359 for ; Sat, 21 Aug 2010 19:32:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -104.846 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-104.846 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.351, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GJhYiMfQKDNh for ; Sat, 21 Aug 2010 19:32:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D28703A67C3 for ; Sat, 21 Aug 2010 19:32:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1On0Hf-000BkH-QC for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Sun, 22 Aug 2010 02:27:43 +0000 Received: from [17.254.13.22] (helo=mail-out3.apple.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1On0Hd-000Bjg-Q3 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Sun, 22 Aug 2010 02:27:41 +0000 Received: from relay15.apple.com (relay15.apple.com [17.128.113.54]) by mail-out3.apple.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FABAA41441D for ; Sat, 21 Aug 2010 19:27:41 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: 11807136-b7cc9ae000004162-8d-4c708b1d0e87 Received: from [17.151.79.67] (Unknown_Domain [17.151.79.67]) (using TLS with cipher AES128-SHA (AES128-SHA/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by relay15.apple.com (Apple SCV relay) with SMTP id 39.71.16738.D1B807C4; Sat, 21 Aug 2010 19:27:41 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1082) Subject: Re: draft-ietf-v6ops-cpe-simple-security/ From: james woodyatt In-Reply-To: <1F8974D9-C7A4-457B-8781-2B6FA159414A@cisco.com> Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 19:27:40 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <60A8155D-7E38-42EA-8A0E-7C52A25F55BA@cisco.com> <1F8974D9-C7A4-457B-8781-2B6FA159414A@cisco.com> To: IPv6 Operations X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1082) X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAQAAAZE= Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: On Aug 18, 2010, at 15:23 , Fred Baker wrote: >=20 > The process is generally that he reviews it and perhaps discusses it = with the author and the shepherd (me).=20 I am patiently awaiting this contact. -- james woodyatt member of technical staff, communications engineering From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Sat Aug 21 19:56:49 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7407F3A6875 for ; Sat, 21 Aug 2010 19:56:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.348 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.348 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.251, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fVpR3BCGa-bI for ; Sat, 21 Aug 2010 19:56:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C8F73A684B for ; Sat, 21 Aug 2010 19:56:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1On0hv-000F9k-KD for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Sun, 22 Aug 2010 02:54:51 +0000 Received: from [2001:14b8:400::130] (helo=p130.piuha.net) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1On0ht-000F8u-6j for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Sun, 22 Aug 2010 02:54:49 +0000 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by p130.piuha.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E904F2CCC1; Sun, 22 Aug 2010 05:54:46 +0300 (EEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at piuha.net Received: from p130.piuha.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (p130.piuha.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id N6+QyNi9fA6Q; Sun, 22 Aug 2010 05:54:46 +0300 (EEST) Received: from [IPv6:::1] (unknown [IPv6:2001:14b8:400::130]) by p130.piuha.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0EF82CC62; Sun, 22 Aug 2010 05:54:43 +0300 (EEST) Message-ID: <4C709173.3050201@piuha.net> Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 22:54:43 -0400 From: Jari Arkko User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.24 (X11/20100411) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Cameron Byrne CC: Fred Baker , IPv6 v6ops , v4tov6transition@ietf.org Subject: Re: draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC References: <018544C5-8D1E-412A-B6E4-F12623E66366@cisco.com> <1E46BEA0-85C4-44B0-B76B-29CBB7515ACF@cisco.com> <4C6FD292.1070806@piuha.net> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: Cameron, > I would be very happy if we included the above point in the transition > draft section 4.4 > That's certainly fine (and Fred has already submitted a new version). > >> I do believe that IPv6-only (with nat64) is an excellent approach for mobile >> networks, and I hope we will soon see this in widespread commercial usage. >> > > And this above point too. > > The draft only includes a green field corporate LAN as the use case > for IPv6-only.... and testing. I believe adding the above points will > add mobile IPv6-only APNs as another relevant use case, not for > special purpose sensor networks, but generic IPv6 capable phones with > NAT64 systems to access the Internet. > > I am perfectly fine with saying that dual-stack is the default IETF > recommended strategy as long as we also say that with some > consideration and qualifications IPv6-only can be just as capable. > OK -- then we are on the same page! > Thanks Jari. > Thank you. Jari > Cameorn > > From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Sat Aug 21 20:22:14 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A9643A6823 for ; Sat, 21 Aug 2010 20:22:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.474 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.474 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.202, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_13=0.6, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JssM8gAOUJ0L for ; Sat, 21 Aug 2010 20:22:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 006AD3A6359 for ; Sat, 21 Aug 2010 20:22:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1On15v-000ITy-Nt for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Sun, 22 Aug 2010 03:19:39 +0000 Received: from [209.85.212.52] (helo=mail-vw0-f52.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1On15t-000ISk-9g for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Sun, 22 Aug 2010 03:19:37 +0000 Received: by vws14 with SMTP id 14so6063886vws.11 for ; Sat, 21 Aug 2010 20:19:36 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.220.129.13 with SMTP id m13mr2156645vcs.132.1282447176510; Sat, 21 Aug 2010 20:19:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.220.193.66 with HTTP; Sat, 21 Aug 2010 20:19:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Originating-IP: [24.20.113.49] In-Reply-To: <13205C286662DE4387D9AF3AC30EF456B00B281AB0@EMBX01-WF.jnpr.net> References: <13205C286662DE4387D9AF3AC30EF456B00B281AB0@EMBX01-WF.jnpr.net> Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 20:19:36 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: WG Chairs From: David Meyer To: Ronald Bonica Cc: "v6ops@ops.ietf.org" , "fred.baker@cisco.com" , "kurtis@kurtis.pp.se" , Joel Jaeggli , IETF Secretariat Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=e0cb4e887b1b662da6048e610098 Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: --e0cb4e887b1b662da6048e610098 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Excellent choice. Congrats Joel. Dave On Sat, Aug 21, 2010 at 3:20 PM, Ronald Bonica wrote: > Folks, > > I am pleased to announce that Joel Jaeggli will be joining Fred Baker and > Kurt Lindqvist as v6ops co-chair. Please join me in welcoming Joel to this > new position. > > Ron Bonica > Co-chair, IETF O&M Area > > > --e0cb4e887b1b662da6048e610098 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Excellent choice. Congrats Joel.

Dave


=
On Sat, Aug 21, 2010 at 3:20 PM, Ronald Bonica <= span dir=3D"ltr"><rbonica@juniper= .net> wrote:
Folks,

I am pleased to announce that Joel Jaeggli will be joining Fred Baker and K= urt Lindqvist as v6ops co-chair. Please join me in welcoming Joel to this n= ew position.

=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 = =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Ron Bonica
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 = =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Co-chair, IETF O&M Area



--e0cb4e887b1b662da6048e610098-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Sat Aug 21 20:41:34 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B457F3A67D1 for ; Sat, 21 Aug 2010 20:41:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -99.545 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-99.545 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.349, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_13=0.6, RDNS_NONE=0.1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4FKtuGvzP91y for ; Sat, 21 Aug 2010 20:41:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B47313A6359 for ; Sat, 21 Aug 2010 20:41:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1On1Nw-000KSt-IK for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Sun, 22 Aug 2010 03:38:16 +0000 Received: from [119.145.14.64] (helo=szxga01-in.huawei.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1On1Nu-000KSW-1X for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Sun, 22 Aug 2010 03:38:14 +0000 Received: from huawei.com (szxga01-in [172.24.2.3]) by szxga01-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0L7J00IVZBFOTR@szxga01-in.huawei.com> for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Sun, 22 Aug 2010 11:38:13 +0800 (CST) Received: from huawei.com ([172.24.2.119]) by szxga01-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0L7J00658BFOXK@szxga01-in.huawei.com> for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Sun, 22 Aug 2010 11:38:12 +0800 (CST) Received: from [192.168.5.104] ([113.116.35.38]) by szxml01-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTPA id <0L7J008K6BFNVN@szxml01-in.huawei.com>; Sun, 22 Aug 2010 11:38:12 +0800 (CST) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2010 11:38:11 +0800 From: Tina TSOU Subject: Re: WG Chairs In-reply-to: <2CB7DD70-6F7D-43B3-A578-9FF48FE75C1E@cisco.com> To: Fred Baker Cc: Joel Jaeggli , IPv6 v6ops , Fred Baker , Ronald Bonica , Kurt Erik Lindqvist , IETF Secretariat Message-id: <933A298E-16B8-4A33-8EF5-B05CB959250F@huawei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.936) Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_Lpo7H28OdTIkji0HvWlC0Q)" References: <13205C286662DE4387D9AF3AC30EF456B00B281AB0@EMBX01-WF.jnpr.net> <2CB7DD70-6F7D-43B3-A578-9FF48FE75C1E@cisco.com> Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: --Boundary_(ID_Lpo7H28OdTIkji0HvWlC0Q) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Joel has already been member of Operations Directorate. So I do not need to add him into it twice;) Double welcome! B. R. Tina http://tinatsou.weebly.com/index.html On Aug 22, 2010, at 6:50 AM, Fred Baker wrote: > Welcome aboard, Joel! > > On Aug 21, 2010, at 3:20 PM, Ronald Bonica wrote: > >> Folks, >> >> I am pleased to announce that Joel Jaeggli will be joining Fred >> Baker and Kurt Lindqvist as v6ops co-chair. Please join me in >> welcoming Joel to this new position. >> >> Ron Bonica >> Co-chair, IETF O&M Area >> > > --Boundary_(ID_Lpo7H28OdTIkji0HvWlC0Q) Content-type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Joel has already been member of Operations Directorate.
So I do not need to add him into it twice;)
Double welcome!


On Aug 22, 2010, a t 6:50 A >
Welcome aboard, Joel!

On Aug 21, 2010, at 3:20 PM, Ronald Bonica wrote:

Folks,

I am pleased to announce that Joel Jaeggli will be joining Fred Baker and Kurt Lindqvist as v6ops co-chair. Please join me in welcoming Joel to this new position.

                                           Ron Bonica
                            & nbsp;&nb p;         Co-chair, IETF O&M Area




--Boundary_(ID_Lpo7H28OdTIkji0HvWlC0Q)-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Sat Aug 21 21:09:46 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 774133A6827 for ; Sat, 21 Aug 2010 21:09:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.615 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.615 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.908, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_13=0.6, MISSING_HEADERS=1.292, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7X7yQ33Rb2r2 for ; Sat, 21 Aug 2010 21:09:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BD043A67F0 for ; Sat, 21 Aug 2010 21:09:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1On1qX-000O8l-M9 for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Sun, 22 Aug 2010 04:07:49 +0000 Received: from [2001:418:1::81] (helo=nagasaki.bogus.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1On1qV-000O8M-Ml for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Sun, 22 Aug 2010 04:07:47 +0000 Received: from joelja-mac.lan (c-98-234-104-156.hsd1.ca.comcast.net [98.234.104.156]) (authenticated bits=0) by nagasaki.bogus.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id o7M47kxP065982 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Sun, 22 Aug 2010 04:07:47 GMT (envelope-from joelja@bogus.com) Message-ID: <4C70A292.7090306@bogus.com> Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2010 21:07:46 -0700 From: Joel Jaeggli User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10.6; en-US; rv:1.9.2.8) Gecko/20100802 Lightning/1.0b2 Thunderbird/3.1.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 CC: "v6ops@ops.ietf.org" Subject: Re: WG Chairs References: <13205C286662DE4387D9AF3AC30EF456B00B281AB0@EMBX01-WF.jnpr.net> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.2 (nagasaki.bogus.com [147.28.0.81]); Sun, 22 Aug 2010 04:07:47 +0000 (UTC) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: Thanks all, Your forbearance and enthusiasm is greatly appreciated. joel On 8/21/10 8:47 PM, Marshall Eubanks wrote: > +1 > > Marshall > > On Aug 21, 2010, at 11:19 PM, David Meyer wrote: > >> Excellent choice. Congrats Joel. >> >> Dave >> >> >> On Sat, Aug 21, 2010 at 3:20 PM, Ronald Bonica wrote: >> Folks, >> >> I am pleased to announce that Joel Jaeggli will be joining Fred Baker and Kurt Lindqvist as v6ops co-chair. Please join me in welcoming Joel to this new position. >> >> Ron Bonica >> Co-chair, IETF O&M Area >> >> >> > > From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Sun Aug 22 14:18:21 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56B283A68F9 for ; Sun, 22 Aug 2010 14:18:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.914 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.914 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.243, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_EQ_AU=0.377, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gKDNPLkmvTcI for ; Sun, 22 Aug 2010 14:18:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A19523A68A5 for ; Sun, 22 Aug 2010 14:18:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OnHpq-00065j-BF for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Sun, 22 Aug 2010 21:12:10 +0000 Received: from [202.136.110.251] (helo=smtp2.adam.net.au) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OnHpn-00065R-4v for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Sun, 22 Aug 2010 21:12:07 +0000 Received: from 182-239-154-130.ip.adam.com.au ([182.239.154.130] helo=opy.nosense.org) by smtp2.adam.net.au with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1OnHpe-0001fA-E4; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 06:41:58 +0930 Received: from opy.nosense.org (localhost.localdomain [IPv6:::1]) by opy.nosense.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D6973B31E; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 06:38:18 +0930 (CST) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2010 06:38:17 +0930 From: Mark Smith To: Christopher Morrow Cc: Miya Kohno , v6ops@ops.ietf.org, ipv6@ietf.org Subject: Re: ping-pong phenomenon with p2p links & /127 prefixes Message-ID: <20100823063817.3de93c5f@opy.nosense.org> In-Reply-To: References: <4C68FD84.80905@unfix.org> <20100816.111224.41652855.sthaug@nethelp.no> <4C690673.1040400@unfix.org> <20100816.114110.71111142.sthaug@nethelp.no> <4C69085A.1040706@unfix.org> <20100816230806.629c633a@opy.nosense.org> <20100822093056.3bd9710b@opy.nosense.org> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.7.6 (GTK+ 2.20.1; x86_64-unknown-linux-gnu) X-Location: Lower Mitcham, South Australia, 5062 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: On Sun, 22 Aug 2010 12:30:25 -0400 Christopher Morrow wrote: > On Sun, Aug 22, 2010 at 12:09 PM, Miya Kohno wrote: > > Hi Mark, > > > >> > *Except /127*, we support rfc3627 and the appendix B.2 of rfc5375. > > They > >> > have properly addressed the implication for using longer prefix than > >> > /64. > >> > > >> > >> So where is there reference to Appendix B.2 of RFC5375 in the /127 > >> draft? The draft does not mention anything about the 70/71 bit issue, > > mark, > what is that issue? that addrarch asks that 70/71 essentially both be > 0? What's the harm in them being 1? Taking the pragmatic approach that > 'bits are bits' in these cases they are not part of the host-address > so they shouldn't matter, I think. > I think people are missing the point. I'm only using the 70/71 issue as an example of something that is discussed in RFC3627, but not discussed or referenced in the /127 draft. If the /127 draft is a rebuttal of RFC3627, and that's how I think it is presented, then I think it needs to at least rebut ever issue relevant to /127s identified in RFC3627. It doesn't do that, with an example of something missing being the discussion or reference to what to do about the 70/71 bits. Other examples - there are probably more - of things I think that should be discussed, beyond what is in RFC3627 - o what is the prefix length of link locals - should it also be /127? o do the links need link locals (I'm partly asking because I've seen some P2P link implementations (tunnels specifically) not have link locals)? o in the ethernet example, is ND NS/NA enabled (the current /127 generally says no)? If not, now is the remote end going to learn the link layer address of the peer? o if /127s mitigate the ND cache exhaustion problem, then why not have ND NS/NA enabled, making them compliant with the ND RFC, where p2p links aren't treated as anything special? This rectifies the ethernet issue too. o The anycast router address isn't the only anycast address that /127s would disable - there are 128 reserved anycast addresses in a subnet. Another one impacted is the Mobile IPv6 Home-Agents anycast. So there are 126 left for future possible use. The existing uses may not be that valuable in point-to-point link scenarios today, but what are the /127s proponent's advice on what to do of another anycast address is assigned that is useful on p2p links? There are potentially others I think. > Curious though, since lots of things seem to be encoded for mysterious > reasons in the 128 bits of an ipv6 address. > It's certainly not unique to IPv6. IPv4 did it of course, with Classes, including Class E where the forwarding mechanism is different, or 0 network meaning this network, and other protocols like Appletalk and IPX have done it too. Regards, Mark. From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Sun Aug 22 17:11:26 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FBB33A68EA for ; Sun, 22 Aug 2010 17:11:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.493 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.493 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.106, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cSXjFl9o8QG6 for ; Sun, 22 Aug 2010 17:11:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CDBA3A67FB for ; Sun, 22 Aug 2010 17:11:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OnKYz-000N7W-4j for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 00:06:57 +0000 Received: from [2001:418:1::40] (helo=ran.psg.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OnKYx-000N7E-2f for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 00:06:55 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=rmac.psg.com.psg.com) by ran.psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OnKYu-0000qK-A4; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 00:06:52 +0000 Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2010 09:06:50 +0900 Message-ID: From: Randy Bush To: Mark Smith Cc: Christopher Morrow , v6ops@ops.ietf.org, ipv6@ietf.org Subject: Re: ping-pong phenomenon with p2p links & /127 prefixes In-Reply-To: <20100823063817.3de93c5f@opy.nosense.org> References: <4C68FD84.80905@unfix.org> <20100816.111224.41652855.sthaug@nethelp.no> <4C690673.1040400@unfix.org> <20100816.114110.71111142.sthaug@nethelp.no> <4C69085A.1040706@unfix.org> <20100816230806.629c633a@opy.nosense.org> <20100822093056.3bd9710b@opy.nosense.org> <20100823063817.3de93c5f@opy.nosense.org> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 (Almost Unreal) Emacs/22.3 Mule/5.0 (SAKAKI) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI 1.14.6 - "Maruoka") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: > If the /127 draft is a rebuttal of RFC3627 and if it isn't? maybe it's just a bug report on one bit? > Other examples - there are probably more - of things I think that should > be discussed, beyond what is in RFC3627 - where is that darned immersion heater? randy From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Sun Aug 22 20:24:33 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 339703A680A for ; Sun, 22 Aug 2010 20:24:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.769 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.769 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.874, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, J_CHICKENPOX_46=0.6, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id F3kYi1WV0bKd for ; Sun, 22 Aug 2010 20:24:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDD193A679F for ; Sun, 22 Aug 2010 20:24:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OnNZv-000GiM-HY for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 03:20:07 +0000 Received: from [209.85.213.66] (helo=mail-yw0-f66.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OnNZs-000Gi0-Eg for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 03:20:04 +0000 Received: by ywg4 with SMTP id 4so970488ywg.5 for ; Sun, 22 Aug 2010 20:20:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:sender:message-id:date:from :user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:x-enigmail-version:openpgp :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=CYFuCpSLj4MDebSZrSVy4iJS7i+Bs4Bn+YijflhjrtQ=; b=BzpWRPpuDfbqrd7zUYa4culTcSR0apN/7jcSUuulKezhGLNUOyISpwcy1gAeFn3GeS DAhY6Y1EoRFa2Cd3IEbQbZ9DtlQrGe8Kfw+WJ3IY6mTRcIqSqa8xfgFeLx2JM4FDzjb9 jhJmladEkgzy+gvNAuTGIiBy/acXhmrRQZexg= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=sender:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject :x-enigmail-version:openpgp:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=w0GIhS2JCBNpT0Nd8npQ0X/+EnY+QodsIum81xpdjnmq50ifvvZIrsBTCx0wTGgH7S ZakK+BbArw8x+8zmAed3wXjhw6YULInU0bwyOK4qB5waTFb3pd1+kt9cmaPb/0XmvylC Rm1zwJL6PEgp2xA9W5+Nlw+CUppnbyxbR5UNE= Received: by 10.100.163.13 with SMTP id l13mr4556798ane.267.1282533601750; Sun, 22 Aug 2010 20:20:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.100] ([190.245.183.71]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id p12sm9934271ane.14.2010.08.22.20.19.59 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Sun, 22 Aug 2010 20:20:01 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4C71E8DC.7020005@gont.com.ar> Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2010 00:19:56 -0300 From: Fernando Gont User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.24 (Windows/20100228) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "v6ops@ops.ietf.org" CC: fltemplin@acm.org, gnakibly@yahoo.com Subject: Comments on draft-nakibly-v6ops-tunnel-loops X-Enigmail-Version: 0.96.0 OpenPGP: id=D076FFF1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: Hi Gabi & Fred, Some comments/questions on/about the aforementioned I-D: **** 1) Page 3. The I-D states: " Ref. [USENIX09] pointed out the existence of a vulnerability in the design of IPv6 automatic tunnels." I've read the aforementioned reference ([USENIX09]), and while it is an interesting read, it seems misleading in some aspects. First of all, I'd argue that the vulnerabilities that it discusses may be real, they do not really have to do with "vulnerabilities in the design of IPv6 automatic tunnels". I'd argue that they have to do either with poor operations practices, or with dumb implementation practices (although possibly still IETF-spec-compliant). Please let me exemplify (these a)-e) comments are really about the Nakibly & Arov paper, but clearly related to this I-D) : a) "Attack #1: 6to4 Relay to ISATAP Router" discussed in [USENIX09] implies that an ISATAP router will receive an encapsulated IPv6 packet on its *external* interface, destined to an IPv6 address that does not belong to that site, but nevertheless forward it on the native IPv6 network. The rule here should be simple: tunneled packets should only be received on the internal interface. Furthermore, ingress filtering should prevent processing a packet with an *internal* src addr that was received on an *external* interface. b) "Attack #2: ISATAP Router to 6to4 Relay" This one implies that the ISATAP router will send a tunneled packet on its *external* interface. Being ISATAP an *Intra-site* tunneling protocol, this clearly shouldn't happen (but Fred Templin is certainly in a much better position than me to correct me if I'm wrong). Both in this case and in Attack #1 above, there should never be a case in which a packet is received on the external physical interface, and forwarded back on that external physical interface. c) Attack #3: ISATAP Router to ISATAP Router Same as above. d) "Attack #4: Teredo Client to NAT" This not only implies that a Teredo client will accept packets on its Teredo interface, but also that it will forward them. Both behaviors seem to be ill-advised (despite the fact that Windows allegedly implements them). The countermeasure here is straightforward: drop packets received on the Teredo interface that are not received to your nodes. Never forward packets on the Teredo interface that have not originated in your own node. e) "E. Attack #5: Teredo Server" This one is probably trickier. Although one should probably argue that packets received on a physical interface for a unicast address, with a src addr that belongs to the host should be dropped. (such packets would typically be forwarded internally). **** 2) Section 1: "This assumption poses a security vulnerability since it may result in an inconsistency between a tunnel's overlay IPv6 routing state and the native IPv6 routing state there by allowing a routing loop to be formed." I'm not sure this terminology is clear. i.e., overlay IPv6 routing state vs. native IPv6 routing state. **** 3) Section 1 (nit): "The loop terminates only when the Hop Limit field in the IPv6 header of the packet is zeroed out." s/zeroed out/is decremented to zero/ (sounds better to me) **** 4) Section 1 (nit): "SP network" s/SP/Service Provider (SP)/ **** 5) Section 2, first para: " In this section we shall denote an IPv6 address of a node reached via a given tunnel by the prefix of the tunnel and the IPv4 address of the node, i.e., Addr(Prefix, IPv4)." This seems misleading. the IPv4 address (IPv4) corresponds to the tunnel end-point, and not to the node that is reachable by the given tunnel. **** 6) Section 2, page 4 (nit): ".... they are either both public or both private and belong to the same internal network." It might make snse to insert a comma between "public" and "or". **** 7) Section 2 (nit): " The source address of the packet is a T1 address with Prf1 as the prefix and IP2 as the embedded IPv4 address, i.e., Addr(Prf1, IP2)." While I do understand what you're talking about, this is the first time you mention that of "embedded address". Therefore, that of "embedded addresses" should be clarified/explained. **** 8) Section 2, Figure 1: It would be of much help to have a network diagram. I read this document before reading [USENIX09], and needed to draw a network diagram myself to better understand the issues you're discussing. Providing such a diagram in the I-D would be a plus. (native IPv6 network, IPv4 network over which packets are tunneled, etc.) **** 9) Section 3.1 (meta-comment): See the "counter-measures" I suggested when discussing each of the attack vectors above. They seem to be simpler than the ones you're proposing here.... **** 10) Sections 3.1/3.1.1 It's not clear to me if the advice in Section 3.1 is supposed to be different from that in Section 3.1.1. Is Section 3.1.1. simply being more detailed than Section 3.1? **** 11) Section 3.2.1 This section talks about the "Neighbor Cache Check". Does such a thing necessarily exist for, e.g., ISATAP? I guess that in the case of Teredo, you're really talking about the "List of recent Teredo peers"? Thanks! Kind regards, -- Fernando Gont e-mail: fernando@gont.com.ar || fgont@acm.org PGP Fingerprint: 7809 84F5 322E 45C7 F1C9 3945 96EE A9EF D076 FFF1 From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Sun Aug 22 21:35:46 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 769E63A685A for ; Sun, 22 Aug 2010 21:35:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.548 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.548 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.053, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id O8EsfcTypzZK for ; Sun, 22 Aug 2010 21:35:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E744B3A6985 for ; Sun, 22 Aug 2010 21:35:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OnOhV-000Nll-Em for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 04:32:01 +0000 Received: from [198.24.6.13] (helo=imr3.ericy.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OnOhP-000Nl6-CQ for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 04:31:58 +0000 Received: from eusaamw0706.eamcs.ericsson.se ([147.117.20.31]) by imr3.ericy.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id o7N4VXWO020842 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Sun, 22 Aug 2010 23:31:33 -0500 Received: from [142.133.10.113] (147.117.20.213) by eusaamw0706.eamcs.ericsson.se (147.117.20.91) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 8.2.234.1; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 00:31:33 -0400 Message-ID: <4C71F91F.3030604@ericsson.com> Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2010 00:29:19 -0400 From: Suresh Krishnan User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.24 (X11/20100411) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Fernando Gont CC: "v6ops@ops.ietf.org" , Dave Thaler , "Jim_Hoagland@symantec.com" Subject: Re: Questions/comments about draft-krishnan-v6ops-teredo-update-10 References: <4C707777.6000309@gont.com.ar> In-Reply-To: <4C707777.6000309@gont.com.ar> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: Hi Fernando, Thanks for your comments. Please see responses inline. On 10-08-21 09:03 PM, Fernando Gont wrote: > Folks, > > I have a few comments/questions about the aforementioned I-D. I realize > that these comments may be late in terms of the IETF-process (the I-D > has been approved by the IESG?), but nevertheless I'm interested in > discussing these issues. > > ** Meta-question: > > It's not very clear to me if it buys anything to deprecate the cone bit. I think it does. Here's why. The cone bit tells the attacker whether a bubble is needed to create a connection. It also has some value in terms of profiling to the extent that it reveals the security posture of the network. If the cone bit is set, the attacker may decide that it is worthwhile to port scan the embedded external IPv4 address and others associated with the same organization, looking for open ports. > > Let's put the random bits aside for a second (as their use is orthogonal > to the "cone bit" issue). If an attacker knows the address of an > existing Teredo client, he could e.g. send a packet to that Teredo > address from an arbitrary IP address, and wait for a response. If the > NAT e.g. sends an ICMP error message in response to packets for which > there's no corresponding mapping, then the attacker could easily learn > whether that node is behind a cone nat or not. > > Alternately, an attacker could scan the mapped IPv4 address through the > corresponding Teredo server (provided all Teredo nodes behind that NAT > use that Teredo server), by sending bubble packets. Then he wouldn't > care about whether the cone bit is set or not, because his packets would > nevertheless get to the Teredo node (as they'd be relayed by the Teredo > server). > > Finally, one might argue that by deprecating the "cone bit", you > actually *remove* one bit from the search space (as nodes could set the > cone bit to 0 even if they were behind a cone nat). You are right. The cone bit deprecation was done to conceal the posture of the network. The intent was not to increase the search space. > > So I'm not sure if it buys anything to deprecate the cone bit... And > considering the performance implications, whether this makes sense or not. > > Thoughts? > > > ** Also, if the cone bit is deprecated, then I assume that Teredo nodes > implementing this document should probably implement this check: > > "If a packet is received from an arbitrary Teredo node, there should be > an entry in the List of recent Teredo peers. This would prevent > attackers from trying to contact a Teredo node directly, despite the > implicit requirement in this document that a Teredo bubble be previously > sent through the corresponding Teredo server before contacting a Teredo > node." Wouldn't section 5.2.3 of RFC4380 cover this check already? > > > ** In Section 3.2, the document states: > >> o The cone bit in the IPv6 source address of a Router Solicitation >> (RS) from a client controls what IPv4 source address the server >> should use when sending a Router Advertisement (RA). If this >> behavior is not preserved, legacy clients will conclude that they >> are behind a cone NAT even when they are not (because the client >> WILL receive the RA where previously it would not, since cone bit >> set to 1 requires the server to respond from another IP address). >> They will then set their cone bit and lose connectivity. > > I would expect the Teredo client to not only check whether the RA is > received, but also check the Source Address of the RA. As a result, even > if the cone bit was ignored and thus the server sent an RA with the > "primary address" as the source address, the Teredo client should be > able to detect this (possibly failing on the "safe" side and concluding > that it is not behind a cone nat). > > > ** Appendix B of draft-krishnan-v6ops-teredo-update-10 analyzes > resistance to address prediction. It argues that the search space is > 16+12 bits. However, if the target NAT is a cone nat, the attacker would > not try a brute force approach. He'd first find those port numbers for > which there's an existing mapping in the NAT (see above), and *only* for > those ports he'd try to find the right 12 random bits that result in a > valid Teredo address. So this analysis might be a bit misleading. I am not sure why you think this is misleading. It talks about a scenario where the attacker does not know the port (i.e. Not the scenario you are considering). The following text in the Security Considerations section covers your scenario, doesn't it? "As a result, even if a malicious user were able to determine the external (mapped) IPv4 address and port assigned to the Teredo client, the malicious user would still need to attack a range of 4,096 IPv6 addresses to determine the actual Teredo IPv6 address of the client." Thanks Suresh From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Sun Aug 22 22:06:46 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5E163A67E3 for ; Sun, 22 Aug 2010 22:06:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.996 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.996 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.501, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2owx8XYDLNnZ for ; Sun, 22 Aug 2010 22:06:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 504853A635F for ; Sun, 22 Aug 2010 22:06:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OnPDW-0001AX-82 for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 05:05:06 +0000 Received: from [74.125.83.66] (helo=mail-gw0-f66.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OnPDT-0001AB-2z for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 05:05:03 +0000 Received: by gwb11 with SMTP id 11so1063856gwb.5 for ; Sun, 22 Aug 2010 22:05:00 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:sender:message-id:date:from :user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to :x-enigmail-version:openpgp:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=k1Z1ph/46QDzG2my1O00DK5vgId0/AYZs0qqiZG36y4=; b=U1NpgBTd94dDeVi27nr+iQ1IiiXwfdMUTVbq2NefU2XtbpRgBiL10GXsgaseY9ChEi ZaIPV4GgiBirp7GTuHBuSq37aKoleTZ/vtK8qQMGi2sXMQ3vsnyUpngnCXcZtmh5viCm gf4Fd4hwA83Hg5x5a1yhOMuR/loQHTQIaeQgA= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=sender:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject :references:in-reply-to:x-enigmail-version:openpgp:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=H8DV21ZFMpq0YGz8FyKLhIXeZ5Ye9inRuFSCU/O5BS74pyTn//UoAijBm5SHC8rznN qPqdSBip3+0DO4ySllCgsLeKEi7VolcrI2uEwRi1hbRr9zV6dPa84cdwObHLU6WCVKmB fpslo0YVJUjRpUNWbqQ3zlww2Y9WKuYS4aCzE= Received: by 10.150.96.8 with SMTP id t8mr4888693ybb.1.1282539900685; Sun, 22 Aug 2010 22:05:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.100] ([190.245.183.71]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id m11sm6856616ybn.4.2010.08.22.22.04.58 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Sun, 22 Aug 2010 22:05:00 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4C720177.2080805@gont.com.ar> Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2010 02:04:55 -0300 From: Fernando Gont User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.24 (Windows/20100228) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Suresh Krishnan CC: "v6ops@ops.ietf.org" , Dave Thaler , "Jim_Hoagland@symantec.com" Subject: Re: Questions/comments about draft-krishnan-v6ops-teredo-update-10 References: <4C707777.6000309@gont.com.ar> <4C71F91F.3030604@ericsson.com> In-Reply-To: <4C71F91F.3030604@ericsson.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.96.0 OpenPGP: id=D076FFF1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: Hi, Suresh, Thanks so much for your response. Please find my comments inline.... >> It's not very clear to me if it buys anything to deprecate the cone bit. > > I think it does. Here's why. The cone bit tells the attacker whether a > bubble is needed to create a connection. Isn't it trivial to learn this information, anyway? And if it is, does it make sense to deprecate the cone bit? > It also has some value in > terms of profiling to the extent that it reveals the security posture of > the network. If the cone bit is set, the attacker may decide that it is > worthwhile to port scan the embedded external IPv4 address and others > associated with the same organization, looking for open ports. Please see my earlier comment about this. Regardless the deprecation of the cone bit, an attacker can nevertheless do this. >> ** Also, if the cone bit is deprecated, then I assume that Teredo nodes >> implementing this document should probably implement this check: >> >> "If a packet is received from an arbitrary Teredo node, there should be >> an entry in the List of recent Teredo peers. This would prevent >> attackers from trying to contact a Teredo node directly, despite the >> implicit requirement in this document that a Teredo bubble be previously >> sent through the corresponding Teredo server before contacting a Teredo >> node." > > Wouldn't section 5.2.3 of RFC4380 cover this check already? No. The relevant piece of RFC 4380 is: > 3) If the source IPv6 address is a Teredo address, the client > compares the mapped IPv4 address and mapped port in the source > address with the source IPv4 address and source port of the packet. > If the values match, the client MUST create a peer entry for the IPv6 > source address in the list of peers; it should update the entry if > one already existed; the mapped IPv4 address and mapped port in the > entry should be set to the value from which the packet was received, > and the status should be set to "trusted". That is, the Teredo client will trust unsolicited packets, instead of requiring a bubble beforehand. >> ** In Section 3.2, the document states: >> >>> o The cone bit in the IPv6 source address of a Router Solicitation >>> (RS) from a client controls what IPv4 source address the server >>> should use when sending a Router Advertisement (RA). If this >>> behavior is not preserved, legacy clients will conclude that they >>> are behind a cone NAT even when they are not (because the client >>> WILL receive the RA where previously it would not, since cone bit >>> set to 1 requires the server to respond from another IP address). >>> They will then set their cone bit and lose connectivity. >> >> I would expect the Teredo client to not only check whether the RA is >> received, but also check the Source Address of the RA. As a result, even >> if the cone bit was ignored and thus the server sent an RA with the >> "primary address" as the source address, the Teredo client should be >> able to detect this (possibly failing on the "safe" side and concluding >> that it is not behind a cone nat). This one remains unanswered ;-) >> ** Appendix B of draft-krishnan-v6ops-teredo-update-10 analyzes >> resistance to address prediction. It argues that the search space is >> 16+12 bits. However, if the target NAT is a cone nat, the attacker would >> not try a brute force approach. He'd first find those port numbers for >> which there's an existing mapping in the NAT (see above), and *only* for >> those ports he'd try to find the right 12 random bits that result in a >> valid Teredo address. So this analysis might be a bit misleading. > > I am not sure why you think this is misleading. This would imply that in order to find all Teredo nodes the search space would be 16+12 bits. In practice, it isn't. Firstly, you'd find open ports at the NAT, with a search space of 16 bits. Then, *only* for each open port the search space would be 12 bits. > It talks about a > scenario where the attacker does not know the port (i.e. Not the > scenario you are considering). The following text in the Security > Considerations section covers your scenario, doesn't it? > > "As a result, even if a malicious user were able to determine the > external (mapped) > IPv4 address and port assigned to the Teredo client, the malicious > user would still need to attack a range of 4,096 IPv6 addresses to > determine the actual Teredo IPv6 address of the client." Yes, but see the small nit above. Thanks! Kin regards, -- Fernando Gont e-mail: fernando@gont.com.ar || fgont@acm.org PGP Fingerprint: 7809 84F5 322E 45C7 F1C9 3945 96EE A9EF D076 FFF1 From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Aug 23 00:51:40 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DF823A67CC for ; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 00:51:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -109.078 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-109.078 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.583, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, RDNS_NONE=0.1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XJ9f4pm1KAUe for ; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 00:51:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A6303A698E for ; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 00:51:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OnRkI-000J99-PO for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 07:47:06 +0000 Received: from [171.68.10.87] (helo=sj-iport-5.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OnRkG-000J8n-Ev for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 07:47:04 +0000 Authentication-Results: sj-iport-5.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AvsEABbEcUyrR7Hu/2dsb2JhbACgL3GcCpp8hTcEhDWFQQ X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.56,256,1280707200"; d="scan'208";a="243732246" Received: from sj-core-5.cisco.com ([171.71.177.238]) by sj-iport-5.cisco.com with ESMTP; 23 Aug 2010 07:46:01 +0000 Received: from stealth-10-32-244-218.cisco.com (stealth-10-32-244-218.cisco.com [10.32.244.218]) by sj-core-5.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o7N7jsUm001708 for ; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 07:45:56 GMT Received: from [127.0.0.1] by stealth-10-32-244-218.cisco.com (PGP Universal service); Mon, 23 Aug 2010 00:46:01 -0700 X-PGP-Universal: processed; by stealth-10-32-244-218.cisco.com on Mon, 23 Aug 2010 00:46:01 -0700 From: Fred Baker Subject: Fwd: [v4tov6transition] [Fwd: I-D Action:draft-carpenter-v4v6tran-framework-00.txt] Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2010 00:45:48 -0700 References: <4C6C8B8A.6040701@gmail.com> To: IPv6 v6ops Message-Id: <737ADBF4-B46B-4D5A-8467-1E9CDBF5E8F3@cisco.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1081) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1081) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: I would invite comment on this draft... Begin forwarded message: > From: Brian E Carpenter > Date: August 18, 2010 6:40:26 PM PDT > To: v4tov6transition@ietf.org > Subject: [v4tov6transition] [Fwd: I-D = Action:draft-carpenter-v4v6tran-framework-00.txt] >=20 > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: I-D Action:draft-carpenter-v4v6tran-framework-00.txt > Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 18:30:02 -0700 (PDT) > From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org > Reply-To: internet-drafts@ietf.org > To: i-d-announce@ietf.org >=20 > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts = directories. >=20 > Title : Framework for IP Version Transition Scenarios > Author(s) : B. Carpenter, et al. > Filename : draft-carpenter-v4v6tran-framework-00.txt > Pages : 7 > Date : 2010-08-18 >=20 > This document sets out a framework for the presentation of scenarios > and recommendations for a variety of approaches to the transition > from IPv4 to IPv6, given the necessity for a long period of co- > existence of the two protocols. >=20 > A URL for this Internet-Draft is: > = http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-carpenter-v4v6tran-framework-00.= txt >=20 > _______________________________________________ > v4tov6transition mailing list > v4tov6transition@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v4tov6transition From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Aug 23 03:17:00 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3FCD23A6809 for ; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 03:17:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.524 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.524 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.075, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qfnJ7kQ8d7ez for ; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 03:16:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1B533A67DB for ; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 03:16:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OnU1b-000D0x-Np for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 10:13:07 +0000 Received: from [2a00:801::f] (helo=uplift.swm.pp.se) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OnU1U-000ClT-K2 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 10:13:00 +0000 Received: by uplift.swm.pp.se (Postfix, from userid 501) id B0EE4A2; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 12:12:58 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by uplift.swm.pp.se (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0619A1; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 12:12:58 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2010 12:12:58 +0200 (CEST) From: Mikael Abrahamsson To: Fred Baker cc: IPv6 v6ops Subject: Re: Fwd: [v4tov6transition] [Fwd: I-D Action:draft-carpenter-v4v6tran-framework-00.txt] In-Reply-To: <737ADBF4-B46B-4D5A-8467-1E9CDBF5E8F3@cisco.com> Message-ID: References: <4C6C8B8A.6040701@gmail.com> <737ADBF4-B46B-4D5A-8467-1E9CDBF5E8F3@cisco.com> User-Agent: Alpine 1.10 (DEB 962 2008-03-14) Organization: People's Front Against WWW MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; format=flowed; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: On Mon, 23 Aug 2010, Fred Baker wrote: > I would invite comment on this draft... I think it's a sane amount of requirements, I like especially that it requires bringing up security concerns so that we get deployment scenarios that have spoofing concerns, RA-guard etc into the deployment scenarios, since historically this has been an area that has been lacking when it comes to IETF standardization. -- Mikael Abrahamsson email: swmike@swm.pp.se From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Aug 23 03:35:47 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 772C73A68FA for ; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 03:35:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -99.948 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-99.948 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.547, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id a8JGiFDa5qzv for ; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 03:35:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3EA6E3A69D3 for ; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 03:35:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OnUMR-000Fv4-ND for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 10:34:39 +0000 Received: from [119.145.14.65] (helo=szxga02-in.huawei.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OnUMP-000Fuk-07 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 10:34:37 +0000 Received: from huawei.com (szxga02-in [172.24.2.6]) by szxga02-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0L7L00K7TPDN40@szxga02-in.huawei.com> for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 18:34:35 +0800 (CST) Received: from huawei.com ([172.24.2.119]) by szxga02-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0L7L009IIPDN75@szxga02-in.huawei.com> for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 18:34:35 +0800 (CST) Received: from z00147053k ([10.70.39.122]) by szxml04-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTPA id <0L7L0072SPDN87@szxml04-in.huawei.com> for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 18:34:35 +0800 (CST) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2010 18:34:35 +0800 From: Tina TSOU Subject: Re: Fwd: [v4tov6transition] [Fwd: I-D Action:draft-carpenter-v4v6tran-framework-00.txt] To: Mikael Abrahamsson , Fred Baker Cc: IPv6 v6ops , v4tov6transition@ietf.org Message-id: <387DF50F67324DB4B2F9B240B3B792DF@china.huawei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5931 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5931 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1; reply-type=response Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal References: <4C6C8B8A.6040701@gmail.com> <737ADBF4-B46B-4D5A-8467-1E9CDBF5E8F3@cisco.com> Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: B. R. Tina http://tinatsou.weebly.com/index.html ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mikael Abrahamsson" To: "Fred Baker" Cc: "IPv6 v6ops" Sent: Monday, August 23, 2010 6:12 PM Subject: Re: Fwd: [v4tov6transition] [Fwd: I-D Action:draft-carpenter-v4v6tran-framework-00.txt] > On Mon, 23 Aug 2010, Fred Baker wrote: > >> I would invite comment on this draft... > > I think it's a sane amount of requirements, I like especially that it > requires bringing up security concerns so that we get deployment scenarios > that have spoofing concerns, RA-guard etc into the deployment scenarios, > since historically this has been an area that has been lacking when it > comes to IETF standardization. Good observation. Cc the v4tov6transition. > > -- > Mikael Abrahamsson email: swmike@swm.pp.se > > From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Aug 23 04:15:46 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5EAA13A6955 for ; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 04:15:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.494 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.494 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.105, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id f7ShBAwYEyG0 for ; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 04:15:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 305403A6841 for ; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 04:15:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OnUxk-0002Kr-Qq for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 11:13:12 +0000 Received: from [2001:418:1::40] (helo=ran.psg.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OnUxi-0002KJ-By for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 11:13:10 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=rmac.psg.com.psg.com) by ran.psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OnUxg-0002xo-Tb; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 11:13:09 +0000 Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2010 20:13:08 +0900 Message-ID: From: Randy Bush To: Fred Baker Cc: IPv6 v6ops , my-oh-so-special-list@bogus.com Subject: Re: Fwd: [v4tov6transition] [Fwd: I-D Action:draft-carpenter-v4v6tran-framework-00.txt] In-Reply-To: <737ADBF4-B46B-4D5A-8467-1E9CDBF5E8F3@cisco.com> References: <4C6C8B8A.6040701@gmail.com> <737ADBF4-B46B-4D5A-8467-1E9CDBF5E8F3@cisco.com> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 (Almost Unreal) Emacs/22.3 Mule/5.0 (SAKAKI) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI 1.14.6 - "Maruoka") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-carpenter-v4v6tran-framework-00.txt those who do not remember ngtrans are doomed to repeat it. what can we do to be better and more productive this time? copying my special list randy From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Aug 23 04:55:45 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D0803A6A15 for ; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 04:55:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.755 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.755 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.399, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_EQ_AU=0.377, RDNS_NONE=0.1, SARE_MILLIONSOF=0.315] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FtAvbxhl-Vf3 for ; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 04:55:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 002453A6A0F for ; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 04:55:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OnVaP-00079K-Cn for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 11:53:09 +0000 Received: from [202.136.110.251] (helo=smtp2.adam.net.au) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OnVaK-00077x-5N; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 11:53:04 +0000 Received: from 182-239-154-130.ip.adam.com.au ([182.239.154.130] helo=opy.nosense.org) by smtp2.adam.net.au with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1OnVaE-0008Sn-9x; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 21:22:58 +0930 Received: from opy.nosense.org (localhost.localdomain [IPv6:::1]) by opy.nosense.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9DA03B325; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 21:19:09 +0930 (CST) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2010 21:19:09 +0930 From: Mark Smith To: Randy Bush Cc: Christopher Morrow , v6ops@ops.ietf.org, ipv6@ietf.org Subject: Re: ping-pong phenomenon with p2p links & /127 prefixes Message-ID: <20100823211909.279cd620@opy.nosense.org> In-Reply-To: References: <4C68FD84.80905@unfix.org> <20100816.111224.41652855.sthaug@nethelp.no> <4C690673.1040400@unfix.org> <20100816.114110.71111142.sthaug@nethelp.no> <4C69085A.1040706@unfix.org> <20100816230806.629c633a@opy.nosense.org> <20100822093056.3bd9710b@opy.nosense.org> <20100823063817.3de93c5f@opy.nosense.org> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.7.6 (GTK+ 2.20.1; x86_64-unknown-linux-gnu) X-Location: Lower Mitcham, South Australia, 5062 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: On Mon, 23 Aug 2010 09:06:50 +0900 Randy Bush wrote: > > If the /127 draft is a rebuttal of RFC3627 > > and if it isn't? maybe it's just a bug report on one bit? > Well, firstly, this is the text in the /127 draft which seems to suggest to me it is: "This document provides rationale for using 127-bit prefix lengths, reevaluates the reasons why doing so was considered harmful, and specifies that /127 prefixes MUST be supported on inter-router links configured for use as point-to-point links." The MUST in capitals is the key word. The Interface ID has been 64 bits in length since RFC2373 (July 1998) for global prefixes. Many RFCs rely on that. This draft is setting itself up to be the new authoritative statement on an exception to all the prior RFCs that have followed the 64 IID specification. I think therefore it is obligated to address all the issues that an exception creates. Alternatively, if it was published as an Informational RFC, I think the threshold of detail required could be lower. IMHO, where the real problem lies isn't the /64 prefix length, it's in the neighbor discovery neighbor solicitation/neighbor advertisement mechanism, and even more specifically, it's caused by these two requirements in the Neighbor Discovery RFC, "7.2.2. Sending Neighbor Solicitations" - " While waiting for address resolution to complete, the sender MUST, for each neighbor, retain a small queue of packets waiting for address resolution to complete. The queue MUST hold at least one packet, and MAY contain more. However, the number of queued packets per neighbor SHOULD be limited to some small value. When a queue overflows, the new arrival SHOULD replace the oldest entry. Once address resolution completes, the node transmits any queued packets." and "If no Neighbor Advertisement is received after MAX_MULTICAST_SOLICIT solicitations, address resolution has failed. The sender MUST return ICMP destination unreachable indications with code 3 (Address Unreachable) for each packet queued awaiting address resolution." The MUST of holding a queue of NS triggering packets, and the MUST of returning an ICMP destination unreachable create remotely exploitable state on a router's interface. Switching off NS/NA on links where it could be (i.e. point-to-point links), mitigates that, however it then creates the ping-pong problem. /127s is a mitigation for that, however it isn't a solution for links containing end-nodes i.e. LANs. There'll still be millions of them that are remotely exploitable from offlink sources. So /127s are very much a partial rather than full solution. Lengthening the prefix length/shortening the IID is always a mitigation, not a solution to the remote exploitable state. I think there are two realities which reduce the usefulness of these MUST implement mechanisms - o the Internet is best effort, so if a source node wants to be confident that the packet arrived, it needs to be prepared to re-transmit it. Queueing it on a router while NS/NA takes place helps but doesn't avoid a node having to be prepared to retransmit. o Also due to the best effort nature of the Internet, there is a possibility that the ICMP destination unreachable won't make it back to the original packet's source, with perimeter firewalls being one of the causes. If those MUSTs were loosened to SHOULDs or MAYs, then it would be acceptable to avoid having a router maintain state while the ND NS/NA transaction takes place. Once that state requirement is removed, I think there are a number of ways to solve the layer 3 to layer 2 address mapping function on a link - o have nodes periodically announce themselves via unsolicited multicasts - the ES-IS model. o have nodes register there presence via a two way transaction - the 6lowpan ND optimisation mechanism might be a candidate. o use an NS/NA transaction, with the NS containing a magic cookie in the flow label field or maybe an ND option that is copied into the NA, and verified by the NS originator. The number of NSes per second might be rate limited to avoid creating a CPU DoS because of cookie generation. Source nodes will eventually retransmit their packets if the NS doesn't occur because the cookie generation rate limit was exceeded. o use an NS/NA transaction, and just accept NAs when ever they arrive. There are more trust issues here because on the onlink nodes could DoS the router with NAs - however they have far more of an incentive to not do it because they're likely to be DoSing the router that provides them with offlink connectivity. This is essentially a passive/solicited version of the ES-IS model. It could also be considered a "loose" or existing ND NS/NA "compatibility" mode of the more "strict" NS/NA cookie transaction mode. These mechanisms are applicable to any type of link, would preserve the simplicity of universal 64 bit IIDs and the other benefits of them e.g. CGAs, as well as avoiding the ping-pong problem. > > Other examples - there are probably more - of things I think that should > > be discussed, beyond what is in RFC3627 - > > where is that darned immersion heater? > No sure what they do. Can I buy one that runs IPv6? Regards, Mark. From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Aug 23 05:12:42 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FC473A69E3 for ; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 05:12:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.572 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.572 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.524, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MFbYhlNO0Vmf for ; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 05:12:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDDD23A69A0 for ; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 05:12:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OnVrr-000A54-6b for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 12:11:11 +0000 Received: from [195.1.209.33] (helo=bizet.nethelp.no) by psg.com with smtp (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OnVrn-000A4E-48 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 12:11:07 +0000 Received: (qmail 39134 invoked from network); 23 Aug 2010 12:11:04 -0000 Received: from bizet.nethelp.no (HELO localhost) (195.1.209.33) by bizet.nethelp.no with SMTP; 23 Aug 2010 12:11:04 -0000 Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2010 14:11:04 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <20100823.141104.74704994.sthaug@nethelp.no> To: ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org Cc: randy@psg.com, v6ops@ops.ietf.org, ipv6@ietf.org Subject: Re: ping-pong phenomenon with p2p links & /127 prefixes From: sthaug@nethelp.no In-Reply-To: <20100823211909.279cd620@opy.nosense.org> References: <20100823063817.3de93c5f@opy.nosense.org> <20100823211909.279cd620@opy.nosense.org> X-Mailer: Mew version 3.3 on Emacs 21.3 / Mule 5.0 (SAKAKI) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: > These mechanisms are applicable to any type of link, would preserve the > simplicity of universal 64 bit IIDs and the other benefits of them e.g. > CGAs, as well as avoiding the ping-pong problem. IMHO, the "universality" of 64 bit IIDs went down the drain the moment router vendors allowed longer than 64 bit netmasks to be configured. For the routers I am most familiar with (Juniper, Cisco), longer than 64 bit netmasks have been configurable for many years. And such masks are heavily used for provider backbone links. The IPv6 standards community can of course continue to pretend a belief in universal 64 bit IIDs - thus ensuring that they are out of touch with IPv6 reality... Steinar Haug, Nethelp consulting, sthaug@nethelp.no From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Aug 23 06:24:52 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2AA43A6A4F for ; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 06:24:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.911 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.911 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.240, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_EQ_AU=0.377, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TCMG9s8DOk20 for ; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 06:24:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11B5E3A6A49 for ; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 06:24:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OnWxy-000LqF-CZ for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 13:21:34 +0000 Received: from [202.136.110.251] (helo=smtp2.adam.net.au) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OnWxw-000LpD-82; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 13:21:32 +0000 Received: from 182-239-154-130.ip.adam.com.au ([182.239.154.130] helo=opy.nosense.org) by smtp2.adam.net.au with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1OnWxp-0003w4-Sp; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 22:51:25 +0930 Received: from opy.nosense.org (localhost.localdomain [IPv6:::1]) by opy.nosense.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA74B3B325; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 22:47:36 +0930 (CST) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2010 22:47:36 +0930 From: Mark Smith To: sthaug@nethelp.no Cc: randy@psg.com, v6ops@ops.ietf.org, ipv6@ietf.org Subject: Re: ping-pong phenomenon with p2p links & /127 prefixes Message-ID: <20100823224736.74b0747f@opy.nosense.org> In-Reply-To: <20100823.141104.74704994.sthaug@nethelp.no> References: <20100823063817.3de93c5f@opy.nosense.org> <20100823211909.279cd620@opy.nosense.org> <20100823.141104.74704994.sthaug@nethelp.no> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.7.6 (GTK+ 2.20.1; x86_64-unknown-linux-gnu) X-Location: Lower Mitcham, South Australia, 5062 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: On Mon, 23 Aug 2010 14:11:04 +0200 (CEST) sthaug@nethelp.no wrote: > > These mechanisms are applicable to any type of link, would preserve the > > simplicity of universal 64 bit IIDs and the other benefits of them e.g. > > CGAs, as well as avoiding the ping-pong problem. > > IMHO, the "universality" of 64 bit IIDs went down the drain the moment > router vendors allowed longer than 64 bit netmasks to be configured. > So how does that prevent those prefix lengths being changed to /64? > For the routers I am most familiar with (Juniper, Cisco), longer than > 64 bit netmasks have been configurable for many years. And such masks > are heavily used for provider backbone links. > As before, how does that prevent those prefix lengths being changed to /64? > The IPv6 standards community can of course continue to pretend a belief > in universal 64 bit IIDs - thus ensuring that they are out of touch > with IPv6 reality... > Maybe that's your reality, but it isn't everybody's. From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Aug 23 06:27:48 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A442F3A6A38 for ; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 06:27:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.497 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.497 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.102, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TRFFf7EihBjz for ; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 06:27:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACBE53A6A1A for ; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 06:27:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OnX3r-000Mlw-Qg for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 13:27:39 +0000 Received: from [2001:418:1::40] (helo=ran.psg.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OnX3p-000Mla-Q8 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 13:27:37 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=rmac.psg.com.psg.com) by ran.psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OnX3h-0003Id-9n; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 13:27:29 +0000 Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2010 22:27:27 +0900 Message-ID: From: Randy Bush To: Mark Smith Cc: sthaug@nethelp.no, v6ops@ops.ietf.org, ipv6@ietf.org Subject: Re: ping-pong phenomenon with p2p links & /127 prefixes In-Reply-To: <20100823224736.74b0747f@opy.nosense.org> References: <20100823063817.3de93c5f@opy.nosense.org> <20100823211909.279cd620@opy.nosense.org> <20100823.141104.74704994.sthaug@nethelp.no> <20100823224736.74b0747f@opy.nosense.org> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 (Almost Unreal) Emacs/22.3 Mule/5.0 (SAKAKI) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI 1.14.6 - "Maruoka") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: >> The IPv6 standards community can of course continue to pretend a >> belief in universal 64 bit IIDs - thus ensuring that they are out of >> touch with IPv6 reality... > > Maybe that's your reality, but it isn't everybody's. as you demonstrate so clearly but those of us who are operators and actually use routers and actually use /127s etc. kinda like the reality we're experiencing and will play whack-a-vendor to keep it if we need to steinar's point is that this draft attempts to codify the operational reality in the normal way such is done in the ietf it's really pretty simple randy From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Aug 23 06:51:57 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C3103A6A64 for ; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 06:51:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.918 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.918 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.247, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_EQ_AU=0.377, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JVvrcTZquoxa for ; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 06:51:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2EDD13A6A56 for ; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 06:51:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OnXQQ-0000Oj-Ij for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 13:50:58 +0000 Received: from [202.136.110.251] (helo=smtp2.adam.net.au) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OnXQN-0000O5-Q4; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 13:50:56 +0000 Received: from 182-239-154-130.ip.adam.com.au ([182.239.154.130] helo=opy.nosense.org) by smtp2.adam.net.au with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1OnXQC-00051y-2z; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 23:20:44 +0930 Received: from opy.nosense.org (localhost.localdomain [IPv6:::1]) by opy.nosense.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D13A33B325; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 23:16:54 +0930 (CST) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2010 23:16:54 +0930 From: Mark Smith To: Randy Bush Cc: sthaug@nethelp.no, v6ops@ops.ietf.org, ipv6@ietf.org Subject: Re: ping-pong phenomenon with p2p links & /127 prefixes Message-ID: <20100823231654.59ee3502@opy.nosense.org> In-Reply-To: References: <20100823063817.3de93c5f@opy.nosense.org> <20100823211909.279cd620@opy.nosense.org> <20100823.141104.74704994.sthaug@nethelp.no> <20100823224736.74b0747f@opy.nosense.org> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.7.6 (GTK+ 2.20.1; x86_64-unknown-linux-gnu) X-Location: Lower Mitcham, South Australia, 5062 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: On Mon, 23 Aug 2010 22:27:27 +0900 Randy Bush wrote: > >> The IPv6 standards community can of course continue to pretend a > >> belief in universal 64 bit IIDs - thus ensuring that they are out of > >> touch with IPv6 reality... > > > > Maybe that's your reality, but it isn't everybody's. > > as you demonstrate so clearly > > but those of us who are operators Why do you assume I'm not? > and actually use routers So that's what they call those things I keep configuring to forward packets. Thanks for the tip. > and actually > use /127s etc. kinda like the reality we're experiencing and will play > whack-a-vendor to keep it if we need to > And all you'll end up with is IPv4 with bigger addresses. You really should catch up with the useful features of protocols that were designed in the late 80s / early 90s, like IPX, Appletalk, DECNet and CLNS. > steinar's point is that this draft attempts to codify the operational > reality in the normal way such is done in the ietf > I think the normal way is also to make sure the RFCs can be used to implement protocols, and can also be used as authoritative references on how devices that claim compliance with them should behave. That's what I use them for when lodging bugs with vendors, or providing feedback to vendors on IPv6 functionality, as I'm doing now with a couple of CPE vendors. > it's really pretty simple > Rarely is anything simple. > randy From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Aug 23 08:28:04 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CF4A3A6879 for ; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 08:28:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.556 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.556 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.508, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Jq4YbcOBfBpV for ; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 08:28:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 735E53A6816 for ; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 08:28:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OnYse-000DX6-Eq for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 15:24:12 +0000 Received: from [195.1.209.33] (helo=bizet.nethelp.no) by psg.com with smtp (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OnYsb-000DVl-PJ for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 15:24:10 +0000 Received: (qmail 82232 invoked from network); 23 Aug 2010 15:24:00 -0000 Received: from bizet.nethelp.no (HELO localhost) (195.1.209.33) by bizet.nethelp.no with SMTP; 23 Aug 2010 15:24:00 -0000 Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2010 17:24:00 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <20100823.172400.74676472.sthaug@nethelp.no> To: ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org Cc: randy@psg.com, v6ops@ops.ietf.org, ipv6@ietf.org Subject: Re: ping-pong phenomenon with p2p links & /127 prefixes From: sthaug@nethelp.no In-Reply-To: <20100823231654.59ee3502@opy.nosense.org> References: <20100823224736.74b0747f@opy.nosense.org> <20100823231654.59ee3502@opy.nosense.org> X-Mailer: Mew version 3.3 on Emacs 21.3 / Mule 5.0 (SAKAKI) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: > And all you'll end up with is IPv4 with bigger addresses. You really > should catch up with the useful features of protocols that were > designed in the late 80s / early 90s, like IPX, Appletalk, DECNet and > CLNS. For me "more addresses" is the *only* justification for IPv6. All the other "useful" features are either uninteresting or even *unwanted*. I'm sort of okay with RA on customer links (though I would much rather have a more featureful DHCPv6). For my backbone links RA is simply out of the picture, not even interesting to discuss. The "failover" capabilities of IPv6 with RA I would much rather solve with HSRP/VRRP. etc. Steinar Haug, Nethelp consulting, sthaug@nethelp.no From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Aug 23 09:30:43 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28AF93A67B4 for ; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 09:30:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_13=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id N+9zsZEMu8ME for ; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 09:30:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 143093A689C for ; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 09:30:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OnZrS-000NKl-RB for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 16:27:02 +0000 Received: from web51604.mail.re2.yahoo.com ([206.190.38.209]) by psg.com with smtp (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OnZrM-000NJ0-Q2 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 16:26:57 +0000 Received: (qmail 40579 invoked by uid 60001); 23 Aug 2010 16:26:45 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s1024; t=1282580805; bh=pabO3avRvKrwmirWe2/C69kPNREBk+Z5nZtL4Gqw5Xo=; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:Date:From:Subject:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=DaHJrGS18YbMT7jvqHW4gXelUaqi1ogBGDbg9LLL/w8JghiqQ1XwV6J+3x0ouWeKzjDaa6tRx+DQWSlR5Gh2O5hAPijobciYYEJnsNdd3f7ult6gniRUXSe3v7zoo3ul3QMsG0XEHS6j2wvXAoPVCMpAwW2PFK4c6BRF/qQFRRI= DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:Date:From:Subject:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=Wf58p+rFYGc6ghNKtRpMsAtG01+mLXb8r/2rppPcTdWcxbndvbGzoU1yzkhiZKxUHNlXb+RVXvlgdJLUDSILW8ICB9PLZw3r2OO4EYp/55H5OTSK8VMr6FaBG03DFB8PVpgW2lMq9Z25vgUB7g8eJdt2nsTs+fCwB2XmwT/xYZk=; Message-ID: <755172.40351.qm@web51604.mail.re2.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: rzmFnk0VM1nrY1nk8xoTLdXY.su6yk3925gdk1BOJm.1ATf mR0CScXJkD.wls0_mtqHSPsck6AduQVzwz1W.ubodUuFaj9GoL5UbKuZhyaU HBDAD24cpFqQv7VGfw1bGte9U3jvnzi5SMOMbqSULuTCcNa.xE9X7kDbc8Gl QjHOoMnnm8nbcp_eBdwNuNrKIXXnZHFrVQhlIkq6HyQuZVJDn04yJJtaSsPJ PJLWSqJedxFFKviBCJ2b9wq43h37n19Lp4L9WJteI87bqdcSykFcjkzdYr5y OeaGIwmQ5o_ERSe9hbFrUBqpFBoe9MDWoSNkhNnVjJujYQ.aMhG79vamDDQA 8poR.HAjC61TvmfCkHat7XpcM1r0- Received: from [114.56.232.175] by web51604.mail.re2.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 09:26:45 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailClassic/11.3.2 YahooMailWebService/0.8.105.279950 Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2010 09:26:45 -0700 (PDT) From: Goutama Bachtiar Subject: Re: WG Chairs To: Joel Jaeggli , Fred Baker Cc: IPv6 v6ops , Fred Baker , Ronald Bonica , Kurt Erik Lindqvist , IETF Secretariat In-Reply-To: <2CB7DD70-6F7D-43B3-A578-9FF48FE75C1E@cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-923727965-1282580805=:40351" Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: --0-923727965-1282580805=:40351 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Congrats Joel for the new assignment.=A0 --- On Sun, 22/8/10, Fred Baker wrote: From: Fred Baker Subject: Re: WG Chairs To: "Joel Jaeggli" Cc: "IPv6 v6ops" , "Fred Baker" ,= "Ronald Bonica" , "Kurt Erik Lindqvist" , "IETF Secretariat" Date: Sunday, 22 August, 2010, 5:50 Welcome aboard, Joel! On Aug 21, 2010, at 3:20 PM, Ronald Bonica wrote: > Folks, >=20 > I am pleased to announce that Joel Jaeggli will be joining Fred Baker and= Kurt Lindqvist as v6ops co-chair. Please join me in welcoming Joel to this= new position. >=20 >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 = =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0=A0=A0Ron Bonica >=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 = =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0=A0=A0Co-chair, IETF O&M Area >=20 =0A=0A=0A --0-923727965-1282580805=:40351 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Congrats Joel for the new assignment. 
--- On Sun, 22/8/10, Fred Baker <fred@cisco.com> = wrote:

From: Fred Baker <fred@cisco.com&= gt;
Subject: Re: WG Chairs
To: "Joel Jaeggli" <joelja@bogus.com>= ;
Cc: "IPv6 v6ops" <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>, "Fred Baker" <fred.bak= er@cisco.com>, "Ronald Bonica" <rbonica@juniper.net>, "Kurt Erik L= indqvist" <kurtis@kurtis.pp.se>, "IETF Secretariat" <ietf-secretar= iat@ietf.org>
Date: Sunday, 22 August, 2010, 5:50

Welcome aboard, Joel!

On Aug 21, 2010, at 3:20 PM, Ro= nald Bonica wrote:

> Folks,
>
> I am pleased to anno= unce that Joel Jaeggli will be joining Fred Baker and Kurt Lindqvist as v6o= ps co-chair. Please join me in welcoming Joel to this new position.
> <= br>>                   = ;                     &nb= sp;    Ron Bonica
>          =                      = ;              Co-chair, IETF O&= ;M Area
>



=0A=0A= =0A=0A --0-923727965-1282580805=:40351-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Aug 23 09:48:24 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E6CC3A6922 for ; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 09:48:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -108.78 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-108.78 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.885, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, J_CHICKENPOX_13=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, RDNS_NONE=0.1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Vx3nIEjoHELa for ; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 09:48:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 722143A689C for ; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 09:48:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OnaAe-0000Dp-Ix for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 16:46:52 +0000 Received: from [171.68.10.86] (helo=sj-iport-4.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OnaAa-0000D3-Qk for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 16:46:49 +0000 Authentication-Results: sj-iport-4.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-Files: IPv4:IPv6 Transition Discus.ics : 2846 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AvsEAKZCckyrR7Hu/2dsb2JhbACgL3GIJJhmjHGOcYJ3CQcBBYIqBIQ1hUGKOA X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.56,258,1280707200"; d="ics'?scan'208";a="175646242" Received: from sj-core-5.cisco.com ([171.71.177.238]) by sj-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP; 23 Aug 2010 16:46:48 +0000 Received: from stealth-10-32-244-218.cisco.com (stealth-10-32-244-218.cisco.com [10.32.244.218]) by sj-core-5.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o7NGkdHN004011 for ; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 16:46:41 GMT Received: from [127.0.0.1] by stealth-10-32-244-218.cisco.com (PGP Universal service); Mon, 23 Aug 2010 09:46:47 -0700 X-PGP-Universal: processed; by stealth-10-32-244-218.cisco.com on Mon, 23 Aug 2010 09:46:47 -0700 From: Fred Baker Subject: Fwd: Meeting scheduled: IPv4/IPv6 Transition Discussion Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2010 09:46:33 -0700 References: To: IPv6 v6ops Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1081) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1081) Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary=Apple-Mail-133--667884346 Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: --Apple-Mail-133--667884346 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Forwarding this to v6ops. This is not formally an interim meeting of = v6ops; it is a meeting of Tina's v4tov6transition@ietf.org folks. = However, I suspect that people in v6ops have things to contribute there, = so if you're so inclined you may join. Begin forwarded message: > From: Fred Baker > Date: August 23, 2010 9:43:25 AM PDT > To: v4tov6transition@ietf.org > Subject: Fwd: Meeting scheduled: IPv4/IPv6 Transition Discussion >=20 > I offered to host a meeting for this group. I started to set up = telepresence, but between the number of sites and the issues of access = to the equipment, I have concluded that webex would make more sense. So = that is what I have set up. As agreed on Doodle, this is: >=20 > 10:00-12:00 22 September China Standard Time > 19:00-21:00 21 September Pacific Daylight Time > 22:00-24:00 21 September Eastern Daylight Time > 4:00- 6:00 22 September Central European Summer Time > 5:00- 7:00 22 September in Helsinki, whatever that time is called >=20 > I presume that Tina is running the meeting. >=20 --Apple-Mail-133--667884346 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="IPv4:IPv6 Transition Discus.ics" Content-Type: text/calendar; name="IPv4:IPv6 Transition Discus.ics" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BEGIN:VCALENDAR=0D=0AVERSION:2.0=0D=0APRODID:-//Apple=20Inc.//iCal=20= 4.0.3//EN=0D=0ACALSCALE:GREGORIAN=0D=0ABEGIN:VTIMEZONE=0D=0A= TZID:Asia/Shanghai=0D=0ABEGIN:STANDARD=0D=0ATZOFFSETFROM:+0900=0D=0A= RRULE:FREQ=3DYEARLY;UNTIL=3D19910914T150000Z;BYMONTH=3D9;BYDAY=3D3SU=0D=0A= DTSTART:19890917T000000=0D=0ATZNAME:GMT+08:00=0D=0ATZOFFSETTO:+0800=0D=0A= END:STANDARD=0D=0ABEGIN:DAYLIGHT=0D=0ATZOFFSETFROM:+0800=0D=0A= DTSTART:19910414T000000=0D=0ATZNAME:GMT+08:00=0D=0ATZOFFSETTO:+0900=0D=0A= RDATE:19910414T000000=0D=0AEND:DAYLIGHT=0D=0AEND:VTIMEZONE=0D=0A= BEGIN:VEVENT=0D=0ADTEND;TZID=3DAsia/Shanghai:20100922T120000=0D=0A= TRANSP:OPAQUE=0D=0AORGANIZER;CN=3D"Fred=20Baker":mailto:fred@cisco.com=0D= =0AUID:AF430C19-7F3D-4A7C-B07A-EAF58342E32E=0D=0A= DTSTAMP:20100823T162754Z=0D=0ALOCATION:WebEx=20-=20208=20721=20201=0D=0A= DESCRIPTION:-----=20WebEx=20Invite=20-----\n\nMeeting=20Number:=20= 208721201\nPassw=0D=0A=20ord:=203L5geCNo\n\n------------------------\nTo=20= join=20the=20meeting=20online\n-=0D=0A=20-----------------------\n1.=20= Go=20to=20https://cisco.webex.com/cisco/j.php?ED=0D=0A=20= =3D146918382&UID=3D0&PW=3DNYjJiZDY4MzVh&RT=3DMiMyMg%3D%3D\n2.=20Enter=20= your=20name=20an=0D=0A=20d=20email=20address.\n3.=20Enter=20the=20= meeting=20password:=203L5geCNo\n4.=20Click=20"Joi=0D=0A=20n".\n5.=20If=20= the=20meeting=20includes=20a=20teleconference\,=20follow=20the=20= instructio=0D=0A=20ns=20that=20appear=20on=20your=20= screen.\n\n------------------------\nTo=20join=20the=20=0D=0A=20= teleconference=20only=20\n------------------------\n1.=20Dial=20into=20= Cisco=20WebEx=0D=0A=20=20-=20view=20all=20Global=20Access=20Numbers=20at=20= \nhttp://cisco.com/en/US/about/doin=0D=0A=20= g_business/conferencing/index.html=20\n2.=20Follow=20the=20prompts=20to=20= enter=20the=20=0D=0A=20Meeting=20Number=20(listed=20above)=20or=20Access=20= Code=20followed=20by=20the=20#=20sign.=20\n\=0D=0A=20nSan=20Jose\,=20CA:=20= +1.408.525.6800=20RTP:=20+1.919.392.3330=20\nUS/Canada:=20+1.866=0D=0A=20= .432.9903=20United=20Kingdom:=20+44.20.8824.0117=20\nIndia:=20= +91.80.4350.1111=20Ger=0D=0A=20many:=20+49.619.6773.9002=20\nJapan:=20= +81.3.5763.9394=20China:=20+86.10.8515.5666=0D=0A=20=20\n\nAccess=20= code:=20208721201\n\nSign=20up=20for=20a=20free=20trial=20of=20= WebEx\nhttp:/=0D=0A=20/www.webex.com/go/mcemfreetrial\n\nIMPORTANT=20= NOTICE:=20This=20WebEx=20service=20=0D=0A=20includes=20a=20feature=20= that=20allows=20audio=20and=20any=20documents=20and=20other=20materia=0D=0A= =20ls=20exchanged=20or=20viewed=20during=20the=20session=20to=20be=20= recorded.=20By=20joining=20thi=0D=0A=20s=20session\,=20you=20= automatically=20consent=20to=20such=20recordings.=20If=20you=20do=20not=20= =0D=0A=20consent=20to=20the=20recording\,=20do=20not=20join=20the=20= session.=0D=0A= URL;VALUE=3DURI:https://cisco.webex.com/cisco/j.php?ED=3D146918382&UID=3D0= &PW=3D=0D=0A=20NYjJiZDY4MzVh&RT=3DMiMyMg=3D=3D=0D=0ASEQUENCE:14=0D=0A= SUMMARY:IPv4/IPv6=20Transition=20Discussion=0D=0A= DTSTART;TZID=3DAsia/Shanghai:20100922T100000=0D=0A= CREATED:20100818T192803Z=0D=0AATTENDEE;CN=3D"Fred=20= Baker";CUTYPE=3DINDIVIDUAL;PARTSTAT=3DACCEPTED:mailto:fred=0D=0A=20= @cisco.com=0D=0A= ATTENDEE;CN=3D"v6ops@ietf.org";CUTYPE=3DINDIVIDUAL;PARTSTAT=3DNEEDS-ACTION= ;RSV=0D=0A=20P=3DTRUE:mailto:v6ops@ietf.org=0D=0A= ATTENDEE;CN=3D"V4tov6transition@ietf.org";CUTYPE=3DINDIVIDUAL;PARTSTAT=3DN= EEDS=0D=0A=20-ACTION;RSVP=3DTRUE:mailto:V4tov6transition@ietf.org=0D=0A= BEGIN:VALARM=0D=0AX-WR-ALARMUID:14705E53-90B3-4473-8A29-F17AAFDFE326=0D=0A= TRIGGER:-PT5M=0D=0AATTACH;VALUE=3DURI:Basso=0D=0AACTION:AUDIO=0D=0A= END:VALARM=0D=0AEND:VEVENT=0D=0AEND:VCALENDAR=0D=0A= --Apple-Mail-133--667884346 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >=20 >=20 > Begin forwarded message: >=20 >> From: >> Date: August 23, 2010 9:27:05 AM PDT >> To: fred@cisco.com >> Subject: Meeting scheduled: IPv4/IPv6 Transition Discussion >> Reply-To: fred@cisco.com >>=20 >> You are the host for this online meeting. >>=20 >> Topic: IPv4/IPv6 Transition Discussion >> Date: Tuesday, September 21, 2010 >> Time: 7:00 pm, Pacific Daylight Time (San Francisco, GMT-07:00) >> Meeting Number: 208 721 201 >> Meeting Password: 3L5geCNo >> Host Key: 542532 (Use this to reclaim host privileges.) >>=20 >> ------------------------------------------------------- >> To start the online meeting >> ------------------------------------------------------- >> 1. Go to https://cisco.webex.com/ciscosales/j.php?ED=3D146918382 >> 2. Log in to your account. >> 3. Click "Start Now". >> 4. Follow the instructions that appear on your screen. >>=20 >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> ALERT:Toll-Free Dial Restrictions for (408) and (919) Area Codes >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>=20 >> The affected toll free numbers are: (866) 432-9903 for the San = Jose/Milpitas area and (866) 349-3520 for the RTP area. >>=20 >> Please dial the local access number for your area from the list = below: >> - San Jose/Milpitas (408) area: 525-6800 >> - RTP (919) area: 392-3330 >>=20 >> -------------------------------------------------------=20 >> To join the teleconference only=20 >> -------------------------------------------------------=20 >> 1. Dial into Cisco WebEx (view all Global Access Numbers at=20 >> http://cisco.com/en/US/about/doing_business/conferencing/index.html=20= >> 2. Follow the prompts to enter the Meeting Number (listed above) or = Access Code followed by the # sign.=20 >>=20 >> San Jose, CA: +1.408.525.6800 RTP: +1.919.392.3330=20 >>=20 >> US/Canada: +1.866.432.9903 United Kingdom: +44.20.8824.0117=20 >>=20 >> India: +91.80.4350.1111 Germany: +49.619.6773.9002=20 >>=20 >> Japan: +81.3.5763.9394 China: +86.10.8515.5666 >>=20 >> ------------------------------------------------------- >> For assistance >> ------------------------------------------------------- >> 1. Go to https://cisco.webex.com/ciscosales/mc >> 2. On the left navigation bar, click "Support". >> To add this meeting to your calendar program (for example Microsoft = Outlook), click this link: >> = https://cisco.webex.com/ciscosales/j.php?ED=3D146918382&UID=3D484311977&IC= S=3DMS&LD=3D1&RD=3D2&ST=3D1&SHA2=3Dc6p//qOKC2JMExDh0ytf95jXLgH/qF-SIXSdZ9T= iPSs=3D >>=20 >> To check whether you have the appropriate players installed for UCF = (Universal Communications Format) rich media files, go to = https://cisco.webex.com/ciscosales/systemdiagnosis.php >>=20 >> http://www.webex.com >> We've got to start meeting like this(TM) >>=20 >> %ConfCallModerator% >>=20 >> ------------------------------------------------------- >> To invite others to join >> ------------------------------------------------------- >>=20 >> ....................Start copying here................... >>=20 >> Topic: IPv4/IPv6 Transition Discussion >> Date: Tuesday, September 21, 2010 >> Time: 7:00 pm, Pacific Daylight Time (San Francisco, GMT-07:00) >> Meeting Number: 208 721 201 >> Password: 3L5geCNo >>=20 >> ------------------------------------------------------- >> To join the meeting online >> ------------------------------------------------------- >> 1. Go to https://cisco.webex.com/ciscosales/j.php?ED=3D146918382&UID=3D= 0 >> 2. Enter your name and email address. >> 3. Enter the meeting password: 3L5geCNo >> 4. Click "Join". >> 5. If the meeting includes a teleconference, follow the instructions = that appear on your screen. >>=20 >> ------------------------------------------------------- >> To join the teleconference only >> ------------------------------------------------------- >> Provide your phone number when you join the meeting to receive a call = back. Or, call the number below and enter the meeting number.=20 >> Call-in toll-free number (US/Canada): +1-866-432-9903 >> Call-in toll number (US/Canada): +1-408-525-6800 >> Toll-free dialing restrictions: = http://www.webex.com/pdf/tollfree_restrictions.pdf >> Access code: 208 721 201 >>=20 >> Sign up for a free trial of WebEx >> http://www.webex.com/go/mcemfreetrial >>=20 >> IMPORTANT NOTICE: This WebEx service includes a feature that allows = audio and any documents and other materials exchanged or viewed during = the session to be recorded. By joining this session, you automatically = consent to such recordings. If you do not consent to the recording, do = not join the session. >> ....................Stop copying here ................... >=20 --Apple-Mail-133--667884346-- From v6ops-archive@ietf.org Mon Aug 23 10:18:14 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78CD53A68F3 for ; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 10:18:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Quarantine-ID: <1K5nRPwLHKQb> X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char AE hex): From: USA VIAGRA \256 Official ; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 10:18:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from h178-129-51-117.dyn.bashtel.ru (h178-129-51-117.dyn.bashtel.ru [178.129.51.117]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id EB8503A6829 for ; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 10:18:11 -0700 (PDT) From: USA VIAGRA ® Official To: v6ops-archive@ietf.org Subject: v6ops-archive@ietf.org VIAGRA ® Official Seller -61% MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20100823171811.EB8503A6829@core3.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2010 10:18:11 -0700 (PDT)
Click here!

From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Aug 23 13:19:30 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB2023A6AEB for ; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 13:19:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.626 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.626 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.027, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Sg0mseE8FWZ9 for ; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 13:19:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CBB3E3A6AEA for ; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 13:19:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OndQd-0006Ac-S7 for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 20:15:36 +0000 Received: from [2001:418:1::81] (helo=nagasaki.bogus.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OndQX-00069i-Dt; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 20:15:29 +0000 Received: from dhcp-176.nokia.net (dhcp-176.nokia.net [192.103.16.176] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by nagasaki.bogus.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id o7NKFF8C094174 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Mon, 23 Aug 2010 20:15:16 GMT (envelope-from joelja@bogus.com) Message-ID: <4C72D6D3.6030308@bogus.com> Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2010 13:15:15 -0700 From: Joel Jaeggli User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10.6; en-US; rv:1.9.2.8) Gecko/20100802 Lightning/1.0b2 Thunderbird/3.1.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sthaug@nethelp.no CC: ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org, randy@psg.com, v6ops@ops.ietf.org, ipv6@ietf.org Subject: Re: ping-pong phenomenon with p2p links & /127 prefixes References: <20100823063817.3de93c5f@opy.nosense.org> <20100823211909.279cd620@opy.nosense.org> <20100823.141104.74704994.sthaug@nethelp.no> In-Reply-To: <20100823.141104.74704994.sthaug@nethelp.no> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.2 (nagasaki.bogus.com [147.28.0.81]); Mon, 23 Aug 2010 20:15:17 +0000 (UTC) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: On 8/23/10 5:11 AM, sthaug@nethelp.no wrote: >> These mechanisms are applicable to any type of link, would preserve the >> simplicity of universal 64 bit IIDs and the other benefits of them e.g. >> CGAs, as well as avoiding the ping-pong problem. > > IMHO, the "universality" of 64 bit IIDs went down the drain the moment > router vendors allowed longer than 64 bit netmasks to be configured. > > For the routers I am most familiar with (Juniper, Cisco), longer than > 64 bit netmasks have been configurable for many years. And such masks > are heavily used for provider backbone links. > > The IPv6 standards community can of course continue to pretend a belief > in universal 64 bit IIDs - thus ensuring that they are out of touch > with IPv6 reality... I think it can be demonstrated that reality includes longer prefixes than /64. The document needs to be unequivocal about that fact. or more to the point that it is altering that specifications as they stand now. > Steinar Haug, Nethelp consulting, sthaug@nethelp.no > From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Aug 23 13:40:05 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3C763A6AEB for ; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 13:40:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -109.07 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-109.07 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.575, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, RDNS_NONE=0.1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gRMRlg2qGg+D for ; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 13:40:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83AE63A6B36 for ; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 13:38:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OndlM-0008xE-Av for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 20:37:00 +0000 Received: from [171.68.10.87] (helo=sj-iport-5.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OndlJ-0008vh-QJ for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 20:36:57 +0000 Authentication-Results: sj-iport-5.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AvsEAI94ckyrR7H+/2dsb2JhbACgOnGhbZwChTcEhDWFQQ X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.56,259,1280707200"; d="scan'208";a="244087461" Received: from sj-core-2.cisco.com ([171.71.177.254]) by sj-iport-5.cisco.com with ESMTP; 23 Aug 2010 20:36:57 +0000 Received: from stealth-10-32-244-218.cisco.com (stealth-10-32-244-218.cisco.com [10.32.244.218]) by sj-core-2.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o7NKanbE008770; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 20:36:50 GMT Received: from [127.0.0.1] by stealth-10-32-244-218.cisco.com (PGP Universal service); Mon, 23 Aug 2010 13:36:57 -0700 X-PGP-Universal: processed; by stealth-10-32-244-218.cisco.com on Mon, 23 Aug 2010 13:36:57 -0700 Subject: Re: ping-pong phenomenon with p2p links & /127 prefixes Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1081) From: Fred Baker In-Reply-To: <4C72D6D3.6030308@bogus.com> Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2010 13:36:42 -0700 Cc: sthaug@nethelp.no, ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org, randy@psg.com, v6ops@ops.ietf.org, ipv6@ietf.org Message-Id: References: <20100823063817.3de93c5f@opy.nosense.org> <20100823211909.279cd620@opy.nosense.org> <20100823.141104.74704994.sthaug@nethelp.no> <4C72D6D3.6030308@bogus.com> To: Joel Jaeggli X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1081) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: On Aug 23, 2010, at 1:15 PM, Joel Jaeggli wrote: > On 8/23/10 5:11 AM, sthaug@nethelp.no wrote: >>> These mechanisms are applicable to any type of link, would preserve = the >>> simplicity of universal 64 bit IIDs and the other benefits of them = e.g. >>> CGAs, as well as avoiding the ping-pong problem. >>=20 >> IMHO, the "universality" of 64 bit IIDs went down the drain the = moment >> router vendors allowed longer than 64 bit netmasks to be configured. >>=20 >> For the routers I am most familiar with (Juniper, Cisco), longer than >> 64 bit netmasks have been configurable for many years. And such masks >> are heavily used for provider backbone links. >>=20 >> The IPv6 standards community can of course continue to pretend a = belief >> in universal 64 bit IIDs - thus ensuring that they are out of touch >> with IPv6 reality... >=20 > I think it can be demonstrated that reality includes longer prefixes > than /64. The document needs to be unequivocal about that fact. or = more > to the point that it is altering that specifications as they stand = now. I agree, but I think I would phrase it differently. The point is that an = IPv6 address is a CIDR prefix with an interface ID. As allocated by = SLAAC, it will be a /64 prefix and a 64 bit IID. But SLACK is not the = only allocation paradigm. Addresses that are allocated by other = paradigms are not bound by the SLACK paradigm, only by the need to = perform and respond to duplicate address detection and as a result = guarantee the local uniqueness of the IID.= From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Aug 23 13:54:23 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 648383A6B07 for ; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 13:54:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.609 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.609 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.538, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_EQ_AU=0.377, J_CHICKENPOX_13=0.6, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id m23-cfFns4qt for ; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 13:54:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 701D73A6AE3 for ; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 13:54:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1One0t-000BDF-V6 for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 20:53:04 +0000 Received: from [202.136.110.251] (helo=smtp2.adam.net.au) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1One0q-000BCn-SP for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 20:53:01 +0000 Received: from 182-239-154-130.ip.adam.com.au ([182.239.154.130] helo=opy.nosense.org) by smtp2.adam.net.au with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1One0l-0000F8-BJ; Tue, 24 Aug 2010 06:22:55 +0930 Received: from opy.nosense.org (localhost.localdomain [IPv6:::1]) by opy.nosense.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B56B83B31E; Tue, 24 Aug 2010 06:19:01 +0930 (CST) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 06:19:01 +0930 From: Mark Smith To: Jared Mauch Cc: sthaug@nethelp.no, v6ops@ops.ietf.org, ipv6@ietf.org Subject: Re: ping-pong phenomenon with p2p links & /127 prefixes Message-ID: <20100824061901.659fb937@opy.nosense.org> In-Reply-To: References: <20100823063817.3de93c5f@opy.nosense.org> <20100823211909.279cd620@opy.nosense.org> <20100823.141104.74704994.sthaug@nethelp.no> <20100823224736.74b0747f@opy.nosense.org> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.7.6 (GTK+ 2.20.1; x86_64-unknown-linux-gnu) X-Location: Lower Mitcham, South Australia, 5062 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: On Mon, 23 Aug 2010 09:55:48 -0400 Jared Mauch wrote: > > On Aug 23, 2010, at 9:17 AM, Mark Smith wrote: > > > On Mon, 23 Aug 2010 14:11:04 +0200 (CEST) > > sthaug@nethelp.no wrote: > > > >>> These mechanisms are applicable to any type of link, would preserve the > >>> simplicity of universal 64 bit IIDs and the other benefits of them e.g. > >>> CGAs, as well as avoiding the ping-pong problem. > >> > >> IMHO, the "universality" of 64 bit IIDs went down the drain the moment > >> router vendors allowed longer than 64 bit netmasks to be configured. > >> > > > > So how does that prevent those prefix lengths being changed to /64? > > Because you would then end up with overlapping address space that is unreachable in a production deployment. > Not necessarily. If I were to deploy /127s, I'd be allocating /64s to the links. > But that would be an operational item and not an standards body item? > This has been cross posted to v6ops. > - Jared From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Aug 23 14:18:08 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49A013A686D for ; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 14:18:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.231, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_EQ_AU=0.377, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JuGUgFl9Y9Cc for ; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 14:17:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53ED93A6873 for ; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 14:17:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OneMS-000Eer-9I for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 21:15:20 +0000 Received: from [202.136.110.251] (helo=smtp2.adam.net.au) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OneMP-000Ee8-Ak; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 21:15:17 +0000 Received: from 182-239-154-130.ip.adam.com.au ([182.239.154.130] helo=opy.nosense.org) by smtp2.adam.net.au with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1OneMK-0000wM-J0; Tue, 24 Aug 2010 06:45:12 +0930 Received: from opy.nosense.org (localhost.localdomain [IPv6:::1]) by opy.nosense.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 453073B31E; Tue, 24 Aug 2010 06:41:19 +0930 (CST) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 06:41:18 +0930 From: Mark Smith To: sthaug@nethelp.no Cc: randy@psg.com, v6ops@ops.ietf.org, ipv6@ietf.org Subject: Re: ping-pong phenomenon with p2p links & /127 prefixes Message-ID: <20100824064118.75effea7@opy.nosense.org> In-Reply-To: <20100823.172400.74676472.sthaug@nethelp.no> References: <20100823224736.74b0747f@opy.nosense.org> <20100823231654.59ee3502@opy.nosense.org> <20100823.172400.74676472.sthaug@nethelp.no> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.7.6 (GTK+ 2.20.1; x86_64-unknown-linux-gnu) X-Location: Lower Mitcham, South Australia, 5062 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: On Mon, 23 Aug 2010 17:24:00 +0200 (CEST) sthaug@nethelp.no wrote: > > And all you'll end up with is IPv4 with bigger addresses. You really > > should catch up with the useful features of protocols that were > > designed in the late 80s / early 90s, like IPX, Appletalk, DECNet and > > CLNS. > > For me "more addresses" is the *only* justification for IPv6. All the > other "useful" features are either uninteresting or even *unwanted*. > Just so I know, are you confirming that you've only ever used IPv4, and know nothing about any other protocols and how they worked? Your view seems to me to be a bit like saying, "I'm perfectly happy with my 1970s car, it gets me from A to B, and I see no reason to have electric windows, anti-lock brakes, electronic fuel injection, or a GPS, because my 1970s car doesn't have them". > I'm sort of okay with RA on customer links (though I would much rather > have a more featureful DHCPv6). For my backbone links RA is simply out > of the picture, not even interesting to discuss. > > The "failover" capabilities of IPv6 with RA I would much rather solve > with HSRP/VRRP. > > etc. > > Steinar Haug, Nethelp consulting, sthaug@nethelp.no From iapuwax8669@comcast.net Mon Aug 23 14:30:50 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 971093A6966 for ; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 14:30:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -20.483 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-20.483 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_MLH_Stock1=0.87, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_SBL=20, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Q3+jPmdl+mcD for ; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 14:30:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from comcast.net (c-75-64-8-183.hsd1.tn.comcast.net [75.64.8.183]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1AAB3A67B2 for ; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 14:30:48 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2010 16:31:18 -0500 To: v6ops-archive@ietf.org From: Reply-To: Subject: Major stock crisis news forthcoming MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-Id: <20100823213048.B1AAB3A67B2@core3.amsl.com> Wonders of the world for men http://www.beastsummer.ru/ From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Aug 23 14:46:31 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13B023A6966 for ; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 14:46:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.284 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.284 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.813, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_EQ_AU=0.377, J_CHICKENPOX_13=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_51=0.6, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0AUBYQo7CLTb for ; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 14:46:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B61C3A6B09 for ; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 14:46:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Onemp-000IJB-My for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 21:42:35 +0000 Received: from [202.136.110.251] (helo=smtp2.adam.net.au) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Onemk-000IIL-0w for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 21:42:30 +0000 Received: from 182-239-154-130.ip.adam.com.au ([182.239.154.130] helo=opy.nosense.org) by smtp2.adam.net.au with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1Oneme-0001qc-EJ; Tue, 24 Aug 2010 07:12:24 +0930 Received: from opy.nosense.org (localhost.localdomain [IPv6:::1]) by opy.nosense.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E3D53B31E; Tue, 24 Aug 2010 07:08:30 +0930 (CST) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 07:08:30 +0930 From: Mark Smith To: Jared Mauch Cc: sthaug@nethelp.no, v6ops@ops.ietf.org, ipv6@ietf.org Subject: Re: ping-pong phenomenon with p2p links & /127 prefixes Message-ID: <20100824070830.0f3e2ff0@opy.nosense.org> In-Reply-To: <8D7C8AE6-0D11-4896-B51C-A91668D45E4C@puck.nether.net> References: <20100823063817.3de93c5f@opy.nosense.org> <20100823211909.279cd620@opy.nosense.org> <20100823.141104.74704994.sthaug@nethelp.no> <20100823224736.74b0747f@opy.nosense.org> <20100824061901.659fb937@opy.nosense.org> <8D7C8AE6-0D11-4896-B51C-A91668D45E4C@puck.nether.net> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.7.6 (GTK+ 2.20.1; x86_64-unknown-linux-gnu) X-Location: Lower Mitcham, South Australia, 5062 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: On Mon, 23 Aug 2010 17:23:09 -0400 Jared Mauch wrote: > > On Aug 23, 2010, at 4:49 PM, Mark Smith wrote: > > > On Mon, 23 Aug 2010 09:55:48 -0400 > > Jared Mauch wrote: > > > >> > >> On Aug 23, 2010, at 9:17 AM, Mark Smith wrote: > >> > >>> On Mon, 23 Aug 2010 14:11:04 +0200 (CEST) > >>> sthaug@nethelp.no wrote: > >>> > >>>>> These mechanisms are applicable to any type of link, would preserve the > >>>>> simplicity of universal 64 bit IIDs and the other benefits of them e.g. > >>>>> CGAs, as well as avoiding the ping-pong problem. > >>>> > >>>> IMHO, the "universality" of 64 bit IIDs went down the drain the moment > >>>> router vendors allowed longer than 64 bit netmasks to be configured. > >>>> > >>> > >>> So how does that prevent those prefix lengths being changed to /64? > >> > >> Because you would then end up with overlapping address space that is unreachable in a production deployment. > >> > > > > Not necessarily. If I were to deploy /127s, I'd be allocating /64s to > > the links. > > You may put a /64 on your /127 links in addition, but most people only put > one IP subnet on a link, otherwise they might want redirects ;) > I meant reserving a /64 for the link and then configuring a /127 prefix length on it. If my concerns about /64s were resolved, all I'd need to do would be change the prefix length back to a /64. > >> But that would be an operational item and not an standards body item? > >> > > > > This has been cross posted to v6ops. > > Operationally the vendors may be violating some RFC, so lets publish what is > relevant and working today so we can all move on? We can deal with > any additional updates and items with "how IPv6" works elsewhere or in a > new document so we can move /127 on p2p links along? > So that leaves the problem still existing on network edge LANs and virtual P2P links between customer aggregation routers and CPE, of which there'l be millions. Maybe you, Steinar and Randy don't have to worry about those types of links, but others of us do. A complete solution would solve the problem for all link types, not just mitigate it for point-to-point links in the backbone. Regards, Mark. From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Aug 23 14:58:48 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 112263A6B02 for ; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 14:58:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.544 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.544 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.496, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id efSQ+I3nbznw for ; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 14:58:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F1C63A688B for ; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 14:58:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Onf1b-000KcD-Uq for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 21:57:51 +0000 Received: from [195.1.209.33] (helo=bizet.nethelp.no) by psg.com with smtp (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Onf1V-000Kbb-P3 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 21:57:46 +0000 Received: (qmail 60245 invoked from network); 23 Aug 2010 21:57:43 -0000 Received: from bizet.nethelp.no (HELO localhost) (195.1.209.33) by bizet.nethelp.no with SMTP; 23 Aug 2010 21:57:43 -0000 Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2010 23:57:43 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <20100823.235743.41709825.sthaug@nethelp.no> To: ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org Cc: randy@psg.com, v6ops@ops.ietf.org, ipv6@ietf.org Subject: Re: ping-pong phenomenon with p2p links & /127 prefixes From: sthaug@nethelp.no In-Reply-To: <20100824064118.75effea7@opy.nosense.org> References: <20100823231654.59ee3502@opy.nosense.org> <20100823.172400.74676472.sthaug@nethelp.no> <20100824064118.75effea7@opy.nosense.org> X-Mailer: Mew version 3.3 on Emacs 21.3 / Mule 5.0 (SAKAKI) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: > > > And all you'll end up with is IPv4 with bigger addresses. You really > > > should catch up with the useful features of protocols that were > > > designed in the late 80s / early 90s, like IPX, Appletalk, DECNet and > > > CLNS. > > > > For me "more addresses" is the *only* justification for IPv6. All the > > other "useful" features are either uninteresting or even *unwanted*. > > > > Just so I know, are you confirming that you've only ever used IPv4, and > know nothing about any other protocols and how they worked? No. I've used DECnet both as an end user, as a network programmer and as a network admin. Appletalk as an end user and network admin, XNS only as a network admin. CLNS is still alive and well in our backbone, used for IS-IS. We even have a little bit of CLNS routing, over on the SDH/WDM side. > Your view seems to me to be a bit like saying, "I'm perfectly happy > with my 1970s car, it gets me from A to B, and I see no reason to have > electric windows, anti-lock brakes, electronic fuel injection, or a GPS, > because my 1970s car doesn't have them". I don't claim to represent all views on IPv6. I *do* claim that a view that "more addresses" is the only justification for IPv6 is reasonably widespread. I also claim that in my backbone the IPv6 RA baggage is an unwanted feature, and I'd much rather solve the problems with a more featureful DHCPv6, HSRP/VRRP etc. I'm quite willing to believe that there are large networks that want IPv6 RA functionality, want LAN segments to be locked to 64 bits, etc. But please don't assume these views universal - and I won't assume that *my* views are universal. Thank you. Steinar Haug, Nethelp consulting, sthaug@nethelp.no From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Aug 23 15:12:27 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22BE23A6B30 for ; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 15:12:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.499 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.499 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.100, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sGYlmMK-hIAx for ; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 15:12:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFBC93A6B24 for ; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 15:12:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OnfEe-000MXH-L5 for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 22:11:20 +0000 Received: from [2001:418:1::40] (helo=ran.psg.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OnfEb-000MWz-Vw for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 22:11:18 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=rmac.psg.com.psg.com) by ran.psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OnfEb-0005DJ-En; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 22:11:17 +0000 Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 07:11:16 +0900 Message-ID: From: Randy Bush To: sthaug@nethelp.no Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org, ipv6@ietf.org Subject: Re: ping-pong phenomenon with p2p links & /127 prefixes In-Reply-To: <20100823.235743.41709825.sthaug@nethelp.no> References: <20100823231654.59ee3502@opy.nosense.org> <20100823.172400.74676472.sthaug@nethelp.no> <20100824064118.75effea7@opy.nosense.org> <20100823.235743.41709825.sthaug@nethelp.no> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 (Almost Unreal) Emacs/22.3 Mule/5.0 (SAKAKI) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI 1.14.6 - "Maruoka") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: > I don't claim to represent all views on IPv6. I *do* claim that a view > that "more addresses" is the only justification for IPv6 is reasonably > widespread. you don't want mandatory ipsec, longer battery life, ...? :) 96 more bits, no magic -- gaurab the problems existing operators (who just want to add v6 and not go to the cathedral of ipv6 religion) hit in deployment are 96 more bits and not all the features they use in ipv4. dhcp and vrrp, as you mention. but net management would be nice too, though that is not as much ietf issue. again, we need to make it EASY for people to deploy ipv6 on their networks. randy From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Aug 23 15:12:35 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A50D93A6B0D for ; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 15:12:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.869 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.869 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.198, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_EQ_AU=0.377, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zMP9BllIMAs1 for ; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 15:12:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C41CD3A6958 for ; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 15:12:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OnfEp-000MYI-5z for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 22:11:31 +0000 Received: from [202.136.110.251] (helo=smtp2.adam.net.au) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OnfEm-000MXt-Ax for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 22:11:28 +0000 Received: from 182-239-154-130.ip.adam.com.au ([182.239.154.130] helo=opy.nosense.org) by smtp2.adam.net.au with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1OnfEg-0002sU-18; Tue, 24 Aug 2010 07:41:22 +0930 Received: from opy.nosense.org (localhost.localdomain [IPv6:::1]) by opy.nosense.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FB1A3B31E; Tue, 24 Aug 2010 07:37:27 +0930 (CST) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 07:37:27 +0930 From: Mark Smith To: Jared Mauch Cc: sthaug@nethelp.no, v6ops@ops.ietf.org, ipv6@ietf.org Subject: Re: ping-pong phenomenon with p2p links & /127 prefixes Message-ID: <20100824073727.4081f64f@opy.nosense.org> In-Reply-To: References: <20100823224736.74b0747f@opy.nosense.org> <20100823231654.59ee3502@opy.nosense.org> <20100823.172400.74676472.sthaug@nethelp.no> <20100824064118.75effea7@opy.nosense.org> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.7.6 (GTK+ 2.20.1; x86_64-unknown-linux-gnu) X-Location: Lower Mitcham, South Australia, 5062 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: On Mon, 23 Aug 2010 17:19:26 -0400 Jared Mauch wrote: > > On Aug 23, 2010, at 5:11 PM, Mark Smith wrote: > > > On Mon, 23 Aug 2010 17:24:00 +0200 (CEST) > > sthaug@nethelp.no wrote: > > > >>> And all you'll end up with is IPv4 with bigger addresses. You really > >>> should catch up with the useful features of protocols that were > >>> designed in the late 80s / early 90s, like IPX, Appletalk, DECNet and > >>> CLNS. > >> > >> For me "more addresses" is the *only* justification for IPv6. All the > >> other "useful" features are either uninteresting or even *unwanted*. > >> > > > > Just so I know, are you confirming that you've only ever used IPv4, and > > know nothing about any other protocols and how they worked? > > > > Your view seems to me to be a bit like saying, "I'm perfectly happy > > with my 1970s car, it gets me from A to B, and I see no reason to have > > electric windows, anti-lock brakes, electronic fuel injection, or a GPS, > > because my 1970s car doesn't have them". > > If customers were saying they wanted "network based security" more people > would be offering it. Problem is that most providers set the price of > $security_thing (either 2547-style vpn, etc..) as something too costly > or external auditors don't sign-off on it, so they say: > > give me $dumb_pipe @ 5G/s and toss their own IPSec/VPN/whatnot > device/appliance on-top of it. > > The biggest feedback I hear from people about IPv6 (besides the extra > bits for addressses) is "Security", but they generally don't know what > that is outside marketing speak. Saying that your 1970's car doesn't > have an onboard GPS is correct, but that doesn't mean the customer won't > just get a $200 aftermarket at walmart. Well, GPS was only one of the examples I used, and I was envisioning one that is built into the dash. To continue with the analogy, how many people would buy and install after-market electric windows, anti-lock brakes, electronic fuel injection etc.? > Is that ideal for the $car_mfg? > Surely it is a hit on the profit margin, but overall customers are just > asking for $dumb_pipe @ 5Gb/s @ $low_low_price_per_meg. > I think you haven't really realised who the customers are of IPv6 or more generally Internet technologies. It isn't the people who pay ISPs or indirectly pay to access the Internet via corporate networks. They're customers of Internet services. More specifically they're customers of the function of allowing applications or processes to intercommunicate internationally. They don't and shouldn't have to care about the technology that makes it work. That's what operators are for. Thats why the "cloud" analogy for networks is a good one - it represents a concept of "don't worry about that magic inside, just assume your data will get from one side to the other". (no I'm not talking about "cloud computing") The people who buy, deploy and operate the technology of the Internet are the customers of IPv6. That's not the general public, that's people like you and I. Our job is to use Internet technologies to deliver Internet services to our customers. So when I say I think this is what I'd like IPv6 to do, or it shouldn't work like IPv4 because there are potentially better ways to do it, I'm the customer. So when I ask for simplicity, I'm asking for it so that my job is easier and quicker, and therefore cheaper in time or money for my customers - the end-users of Internet services. I'm even asking for it so that they don't even have to employ me to get basic connectivity going on a small scale, even without understanding the technology. (I'm also asking for it so that I won't have relatives ask me to help setup their Internet connections at home - as if I want to do my job unpaid on the weekend as well ...) Protocols like IPX and Appletalk demonstrated how easily deployable protocols could be made on a small to medium scale, and they did it in the 1990s. They define the minimum of what any protocol designed since then should be able to achieve in user friendliness. IPv4 doesn't. To paraphrase Soylent Green, "IPv6 customers is operators!" Regards, Mark. From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Aug 23 15:56:05 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A0A13A6B3D for ; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 15:56:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -109.074 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-109.074 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.579, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, RDNS_NONE=0.1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kLFnL8AMgaE2 for ; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 15:56:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4514B3A6B3A for ; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 15:56:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Onfsb-0002Cq-Hd for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 22:52:37 +0000 Received: from [171.71.176.117] (helo=sj-iport-6.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OnfsY-0002CU-Db for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 22:52:34 +0000 Authentication-Results: sj-iport-6.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AvsEAKyYckyrR7Ht/2dsb2JhbACgOnGhEpwNhTcEhDWFQQ X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.56,259,1280707200"; d="scan'208";a="577708666" Received: from sj-core-1.cisco.com ([171.71.177.237]) by sj-iport-6.cisco.com with ESMTP; 23 Aug 2010 22:52:33 +0000 Received: from stealth-10-32-244-218.cisco.com (sjc-vpn5-1276.cisco.com [10.21.92.252]) by sj-core-1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o7NMqPVR013956; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 22:52:27 GMT Received: from [127.0.0.1] by stealth-10-32-244-218.cisco.com (PGP Universal service); Mon, 23 Aug 2010 15:52:33 -0700 X-PGP-Universal: processed; by stealth-10-32-244-218.cisco.com on Mon, 23 Aug 2010 15:52:33 -0700 Subject: Re: ping-pong phenomenon with p2p links & /127 prefixes Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1081) From: Fred Baker In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2010 15:51:59 -0700 Cc: Jared Mauch , "v6ops@ops.ietf.org" , "ipv6@ietf.org" Message-Id: References: <20100823224736.74b0747f@opy.nosense.org><20100823231654.59ee3502@opy.nosense.org><20100823.172400.74676472.st haug@nethelp.no><20100824064118.75effea7@opy.nosense.org> To: "Manfredi, Albert E" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1081) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: On Aug 23, 2010, at 2:53 PM, Manfredi, Albert E wrote: > Jared Mauch: >=20 >> The biggest feedback I hear from people about IPv6 (besides the extra >> bits for addressses) is "Security", but they generally don't know = what >> that is outside marketing speak. >=20 > +1, in spades. Nor do these folk seem to appreciate that it's not the = network that bears the greatest burden in providing that security. It is = the clients. They also don't get that it doesn't buy you anything if you don't use = it, or that it is generally available on IPv4 systems as well. Do a = packet capture on your favorite LAN and measure the percentage of = IPsec-protected traffic. Then ask yourself how many of those systems in = fact implement IPsec code. It's largely about the distribution of = certificates and "turning it on". > And that this is also true with IPv4. You don't get security if only = the network is secure. Conversely, you can get security if the network = is not secure. >=20 > The /64 limitation only applies for SLAAC. Seems to me that there are = many service providers with examples of links where SLAAC isn't = applicable. I don't see why models that work with IPv4, like CIDR, must = be rejected out of hand. Making IPv6 "less different" from IPv4 can only = help its implementation, IMO. >=20 > And too, good IPv6 ideas, like multiple addresses per client, also = create new problems and new mechanisms for non-reachability, which are = still having to be solved. >=20 > Bert > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- From ibyxaohor5684@comcast.net Mon Aug 23 19:00:24 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56A073A6B4F for ; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 19:00:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -16.026 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-16.026 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_SBL=20, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id r3lIdQc8bZDk for ; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 19:00:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from comcast.net (c-67-168-121-18.hsd1.wa.comcast.net [67.168.121.18]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C1393A697B for ; Mon, 23 Aug 2010 19:00:23 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2010 19:00:44 -0700 To: v6ops-archive@ietf.org From: Reply-To: Subject: Victory is yours when its big MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-Id: <20100824020023.7C1393A697B@core3.amsl.com> Nothing is impossible. Here’s the proof http://www.amprebel.ru/ From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Aug 24 07:57:21 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B51F93A6B65 for ; Tue, 24 Aug 2010 07:57:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.364 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.364 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.869, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id McWV-1sHnzXb for ; Tue, 24 Aug 2010 07:57:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9CFA3A6B61 for ; Tue, 24 Aug 2010 07:57:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Onuqs-000Kdv-NB for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Tue, 24 Aug 2010 14:51:50 +0000 Received: from [64.102.122.149] (helo=rtp-iport-2.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Onuqp-000Kck-8i for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Aug 2010 14:51:47 +0000 Authentication-Results: rtp-iport-2.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AvsEADJ5c0ytJV2c/2dsb2JhbACgQHGfK5twgnCCRwSENYgy X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.56,263,1280707200"; d="scan'208";a="151315471" Received: from rcdn-core-5.cisco.com ([173.37.93.156]) by rtp-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 24 Aug 2010 14:51:45 +0000 Received: from xbh-rcd-302.cisco.com (xbh-rcd-302.cisco.com [72.163.63.9]) by rcdn-core-5.cisco.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o7OEpjTl004374; Tue, 24 Aug 2010 14:51:45 GMT Received: from xmb-rcd-114.cisco.com ([72.163.62.156]) by xbh-rcd-302.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Tue, 24 Aug 2010 09:51:45 -0500 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: ping-pong phenomenon with p2p links & /127 prefixes Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 09:51:41 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20100823.235743.41709825.sthaug@nethelp.no> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: ping-pong phenomenon with p2p links & /127 prefixes Thread-Index: ActDDj3keIkaoqvpTG+x8gk0roF6QgAWb3EQ References: <20100823231654.59ee3502@opy.nosense.org><20100823.172400.74676472.sthaug@nethelp.no><20100824064118.75effea7@opy.nosense.org> <20100823.235743.41709825.sthaug@nethelp.no> From: "Hemant Singh (shemant)" To: , Cc: , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 24 Aug 2010 14:51:45.0453 (UTC) FILETIME=[DF3D75D0:01CB439B] Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: -----Original Message----- From: ipv6-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ipv6-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of sthaug@nethelp.no Sent: Monday, August 23, 2010 5:58 PM To: ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org; ipv6@ietf.org Subject: Re: ping-pong phenomenon with p2p links & /127 prefixes >I'm quite willing to believe that there are large networks that want >IPv6 RA functionality, want LAN segments to be locked to 64 bits, etc. >But please don't assume these views universal - and I won't assume >that *my* views are universal. Thank you. Since when does an ND RA locks LAN segments to 64 bits? I have already mailed this /127 thread during the IETF 78 week that an RA can be configured such that the RA does not send any PIO and signals the clients on the link to send traffic to the default router. Some SP networks such as the cable broadband network has host behind two different cable modems as off-link to each other and such networks do provision the RA with no PIO. I also pointed to our document in RFC 5942 that discusses ND off-link. Hemant From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Aug 24 13:19:11 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04B713A6A0A for ; Tue, 24 Aug 2010 13:19:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.895 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.895 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.104, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_46=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8xlBZOnNMzn6 for ; Tue, 24 Aug 2010 13:19:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF1903A694C for ; Tue, 24 Aug 2010 13:19:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Onzs6-0006hr-Jk for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Tue, 24 Aug 2010 20:13:26 +0000 Received: from n62.bullet.mail.sp1.yahoo.com ([98.136.44.35]) by psg.com with smtp (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Onzrv-0006O9-Fd for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 24 Aug 2010 20:13:17 +0000 Received: from [216.252.122.217] by n62.bullet.mail.sp1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 24 Aug 2010 20:13:14 -0000 Received: from [98.136.44.161] by t2.bullet.sp1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 24 Aug 2010 20:13:14 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp602.mail.sp1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 24 Aug 2010 20:13:14 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 881661.54022.bm@omp602.mail.sp1.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 69427 invoked by uid 60001); 24 Aug 2010 20:13:13 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s1024; t=1282680793; bh=cSmNTUKpIwKcQaNQtp+WTEUWC0fQxsbUNwLSFMAt5t4=; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Date:From:Subject:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=imQ6k4TdZ5hKojRBJ2YRLeQb7oiGX9k7GzkxhrulYj0EPU4EqQYUGbFDc3Oor4V4QNid9qQagMp2CguvfQ3lR+lis5emsMnnH5me/Z7xR2CWPXW/cVbmsy0sEkxQQ8Xtm/25QPpFXS5C8z3oPSTQOwt6Qy7QSrs3oj9kImhw2u8= DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Date:From:Subject:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=Pc5sofFi9Tf17HT2Z08nr8hkp81zID2/Vk/QqgZbU6NOoIxzNTWEKjJHdsA1u4Q2KhSmz5mJVW9XICVByRRYrN+Z/Q6tZEuAXDhgWBUfTDKxzNhO6UJD6kOTH3AlogcP/jCPqhULfopMZ1T18gdPsU3E86qYgOFQERrs3VYOJts=; Message-ID: <586778.68736.qm@web45501.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: 4dHA9bIVM1muZSdsOekfhcWzVJqjU_vIFa7E5Y.cVy.EFmo iGuZ.hVkCu6mDPbjSdxJpBoSWjkbo59.a86Zd4WxADDxj1YbxLzrWWBRAWYX _AuHRWwqS6.QBHA7QlHtXN4QCn1cBrrZfPDSAEmvLuJMruNQHBwyI4IMVg0s 5lGk2OqUCwJJ5GhOplSrHb0SO3NvxW.LPn7ZZohjIu47PxjhLu6prfn.4CQK 23hFScd1f.qm6WqqSs42pQF3v598AGbKlcEphEcS4IkfgK7FkH3tzV92dbYe buW4IKy.UBAYr0IAet3jp1nY- Received: from [85.64.216.89] by web45501.mail.sp1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 24 Aug 2010 13:13:13 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/470 YahooMailWebService/0.8.105.279950 References: <4C71E8DC.7020005@gont.com.ar> Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 13:13:13 -0700 (PDT) From: Gabi Nakibly Subject: Re: Comments on draft-nakibly-v6ops-tunnel-loops To: Fernando Gont , "v6ops@ops.ietf.org" Cc: fltemplin@acm.org In-Reply-To: <4C71E8DC.7020005@gont.com.ar> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: Hi Fernando,=0AThanks=A0for your valuable input. Please see our response in= line.=0A=0AFred & Gabi=0A=0A=0A=0A----- Original Message ----=0A> From: Fer= nando Gont =0A> To: "v6ops@ops.ietf.org" =0A> Cc: fltemplin@acm.org; gnakibly@yahoo.com=0A> Sent: Mon, Augus= t 23, 2010 6:19:56 AM=0A> Subject: Comments on draft-nakibly-v6ops-tunnel-l= oops=0A> =0A> Hi Gabi & Fred,=0A> =0A> Some comments/questions on/about the= aforementioned I-D:=0A> =0A> **** 1) Page 3. The I-D states:=0A> =0A> " Re= f. [USENIX09] pointed out the existence of a=0A> =A0 vulnerability in the d= esign of IPv6 automatic tunnels."=0A> =0A> I've read the aforementioned ref= erence ([USENIX09]), and while it is an=0A> interesting read, it seems misl= eading in some aspects. First of all, I'd=0A> argue that the vulnerabilitie= s that it discusses may be real, they do=0A> not really have to do with "vu= lnerabilities in the design of IPv6=0A> automatic tunnels". I'd argue that = they have to do either with poor=0A> operations practices, or with dumb imp= lementation practices (although=0A> possibly still IETF-spec-compliant).=0A= > =0A> Please let me exemplify (these a)-e) comments are really about the= =0A> Nakibly & Arov paper, but clearly related to this I-D) :=0A> =0A> a) "= Attack #1: 6to4 Relay to ISATAP Router" discussed in [USENIX09]=0A> implies= that an ISATAP router will receive an encapsulated IPv6 packet=0A> on its = *external* interface, destined to an IPv6 address that does not=0A> belong = to that site, but nevertheless forward it on the native IPv6 network.=0A> = =0A> The rule here should be simple: tunneled packets should only be receiv= ed=0A> on the internal interface. Furthermore, ingress filtering should pre= vent=0A> processing a packet with an *internal* src addr that was received = on an=0A> *external* interface.=0A> =0A=0AWe=A0agree with your observation.= However, please note that the ISATAP router will=0Anot always receive the = attack packet (packet #0) on its external interface.=0AThe=A0packet may ent= er the inside network=A0through=A0a border router which is not the=0AISATAP= router.=A0=A0Let's take for example a network with two border routers. The= =0Afirst border router is an ISATAP router that borders with a native IPv6 = network=0Aand a second border router that borders with an IPv4 network. The= attack packet=0Amay enter the network through the second router and the IS= ATAP router may=0Areceive it on its *internal* interface. The rule you prop= ose can not mitigate=0Athe attack in this case.=0A=0A> =0A> b) "Attack #2: = ISATAP Router to 6to4 Relay"=0A> =0A> This one implies that the ISATAP rout= er will send a tunneled packet on=0A> its *external* interface. Being ISATA= P an *Intra-site* tunneling=0A> protocol, this clearly shouldn't happen (bu= t Fred Templin is certainly=0A> in a much better position than me to correc= t me if I'm wrong).=0A> =0A> Both in this case and in Attack #1 above, ther= e should never be a case=0A> in which a packet is received on the external = physical interface, and=0A> forwarded back on that external physical interf= ace.=0A>=0A=0ASimilarly to=A0the case=A0we described above, the packet will= indeed be forwarded by=0Athe ISATAP router=A0over its internal interface, = but the packet will find its way=0Aout through=A0the second border router a= nd loop will continue.=0A=A0=0A> =0A> c) Attack #3: ISATAP Router to ISATAP= Router=0A> =0A> Same as above.=0A> =0A=0ASame as above.=0A=0A> =0A> d) "At= tack #4: Teredo Client to NAT"=0A> =0A> This not only implies that a Teredo= client will accept packets on its=0A> Teredo interface, but also that it w= ill forward them. Both behaviors=0A> seem to be ill-advised (despite the fa= ct that Windows allegedly=0A> implements them).=0A> =0A> The countermeasure= here is straightforward: drop packets received on the=0A> Teredo interface= that are not received to your nodes. Never forward=0A> packets on the Tere= do interface that have not originated in your own node.=0A> =0A> e) "E. Att= ack #5: Teredo Server"=0A> =0A> This one is probably trickier. Although one= should probably argue that=0A> packets received on a physical interface fo= r a unicast address, with a=0A> src addr that belongs to the host should be= dropped. (such packets would=0A> typically be forwarded internally).=0A> = =0A> =0A=0ARegarding the last two Teredo attacks, please note that the draf= t does=A0NOT=0Aaddress them. The nature of these two attacks are different = from the previous=0Aones, hence to make the draft more coherent and simple= =A0it only addresses=0Aprotocol-41 tunnel-based loops.=0AAs to the counterm= easure you proposed for attack #4, I think=A0that=A0it may not be=0Asuitabl= e for Teredo=A0clients that=A0do need to forward packets. For example, a=0A= router that serves as a gateway to an internal IPv6 network while the=A0rou= ter's=0Aexternal IPv6 connectivity is achieved via Teredo. However,=A0we do= agree that a=0Asimple countermeasure similar to the one you proposed can b= e devised.=0ABut, again, this is not related to the draft. If=A0the list fe= els that these =0Aattacks=0Ashould be addressed,=A0suitable=A0updates to Te= redo can be proposed. If yes, =0AI welcome any comments.=0A=0A> **** 2) Sec= tion 1:=0A> =A0 "This assumption poses a=0A> =A0 security vulnerability sin= ce it may result in an inconsistency=0A> =A0 between a tunnel's overlay IPv= 6 routing state and the native IPv6=0A> =A0 routing state there by allowing= a routing loop to be formed."=0A> =0A> I'm not sure this terminology is cl= ear. i.e., overlay IPv6 routing state=0A> vs. native IPv6 routing state.=0A= >=0A=0AThe text will be revised to make=A0this clearer.=0A=A0=0A> =0A> ****= 3) Section 1 (nit):=0A> =A0 "The loop terminates only when=0A> =A0 the Hop= Limit field in the IPv6 header of the packet is zeroed out."=0A> =0A> s/ze= roed out/is decremented to zero/=A0 (sounds better to me)=0A> =0A=0AYes, th= is change will be made.=0A=0A> =0A> **** 4) Section 1 (nit):=0A> "SP networ= k"=0A> =0A> s/SP/Service Provider (SP)/=0A> =0A=0AWe will change this.=0A= =0A> =0A> **** 5) Section 2, first para:=0A> "=A0 In this section we shall = denote an IPv6 address of a node reached via=0A> =A0 a given tunnel by the = prefix of the tunnel and the IPv4 address of=0A> =A0 the node, i.e., Addr(P= refix, IPv4)."=0A> =0A> This seems misleading. the IPv4 address (IPv4) corr= esponds to the tunnel=0A> end-point, and not to the node that is reachable = by the given tunnel.=0A> =0A=0AGood point, but to be more precise the IPv4 = address corresponds to an =0A(IPv4) interface associated with the tunnel en= dpoint. The tunnel endpoint =0Amay associate multiple such interfaces with = the tunnel endpoint, however, =0Aso the proposed resolution is to change "t= he IPv4 address" to "an IPv4 address".=0AWe will change this to make it cle= arer.=0A=0A> =0A> **** 6) Section 2, page 4 (nit):=0A> =0A> "....=A0 they a= re either both public or both private and belong to the=0A> same internal n= etwork."=0A> =0A> It might make snse to insert a comma between "public" and= "or".=0A> =0A=0AYes, this change will be made.=0A=0A> =0A> **** 7) Section= 2 (nit):=0A> "=A0 The source address of the packet is a T1=0A> =A0 address= with Prf1 as the prefix and IP2 as the embedded IPv4 address,=0A> =A0 i.e.= , Addr(Prf1, IP2)."=0A> =0A> While I do understand what you're talking abou= t, this is the first time=0A> you mention that of "embedded address". There= fore, that of "embedded=0A> addresses" should be clarified/explained.=0A> = =0A=0AOK. By way of clarification, the third sentence of Section 1 will be = changed to =0Athe following:=0A=0A=A0"Automatic tunnels form a category of = tunnels in which a=0A=A0 packet's egress node's IPv4 address is embedded wi= thin the=0A=A0 destination IPv6 address of the packet."=0A=0A> =0A> **** 8)= Section 2, Figure 1:=0A> =0A> It would be of much help to have a network d= iagram. I read this document=0A> before reading [USENIX09], and needed to d= raw a network diagram myself=0A> to better understand the issues you're dis= cussing. Providing such a=0A> diagram in the I-D would be a plus. (native I= Pv6 network, IPv4 network=0A> over which packets are tunneled, etc.)=0A>=0A= =0AOK. The next version will provide a network diagram.=0A=A0=0A> =0A> ****= 9) Section 3.1 (meta-comment):=0A> =0A> See the "counter-measures" I sugge= sted when discussing each of the=0A> attack vectors above. They seem to be = simpler than the ones you're=0A> proposing here....=0A> =0A=0AYes, but only= if it can be operationally assured that the case we described =0Aabove is = avoided. =0A=0AWe will=A0add these countermeasures in the draft with this r= eservation.=0A=0A> =0A> **** 10) Sections 3.1/3.1.1=0A> =0A> It's not clear= to me if the advice in Section 3.1 is supposed to be=0A> different from th= at in Section 3.1.1. Is Section 3.1.1. simply being=0A> more detailed than = Section 3.1?=0A> =0A=0AThe final two paragraphs of Section 3.1=0Adescribe a= sub-case that must be addressed in more detail and=0Aprovide a lead-in to = Section 3.1.1 which provides the details.=0AHence, we would prefer to retai= n the existing text and section=0Aorganization.=0A=0A> =0A> **** 11) Sectio= n 3.2.1=0A> =0A> This section talks about the "Neighbor Cache Check". Does = such a thing=0A> necessarily exist for, e.g., ISATAP?=0A> =0A> I guess that= in the case of Teredo, you're really talking about the=0A> "List of recent= Teredo peers"?=0A>=0A=0AAs mentioned above, Teredo is not addressed by the= draft.=0A=A0=0A> =0A> Thanks!=0A=0AThank you.=0A=0A> =0A> Kind regards,=0A= > -- =0A> Fernando Gont=0A> e-mail: fernando@gont.com.ar || fgont@acm.org= =0A> PGP Fingerprint: 7809 84F5 322E 45C7 F1C9 3945 96EE A9EF D076 FFF1=0A>= =0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> =0A=0A=0A From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Wed Aug 25 02:18:31 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DE173A6A96 for ; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 02:18:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.579 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.579 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.908, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, GB_AFFORDABLE=1, HELO_EQ_AU=0.377, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NNkb2Ffel1pT for ; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 02:18:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6AB853A6A7C for ; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 02:18:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OoC1g-000D0Q-Pd for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 09:12:08 +0000 Received: from [202.136.110.253] (helo=smtp1.adam.net.au) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OoC1a-000Cyh-Ma for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 09:12:03 +0000 Received: from 114-30-113-67.ip.adam.com.au ([114.30.113.67] helo=opy.nosense.org) by smtp1.adam.net.au with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1OoC1S-0002kD-5Z; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 18:41:54 +0930 Received: from opy.nosense.org (localhost.localdomain [IPv6:::1]) by opy.nosense.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C67953B325; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 18:37:45 +0930 (CST) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 18:37:45 +0930 From: Mark Smith To: "Manfredi, Albert E" Cc: "v6ops@ops.ietf.org" , "ipv6@ietf.org" Subject: Re: ping-pong phenomenon with p2p links & /127 prefixes Message-ID: <20100825183745.328aa00a@opy.nosense.org> In-Reply-To: References: <20100823224736.74b0747f@opy.nosense.org> <20100823231654.59ee3502@opy.nosense.org> <20100823.172400.74676472.st haug@nethelp.no> <20100824064118.75effea7@opy.nosense.org> <20100824073727.4081f64f@opy.nosense.org> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.7.6 (GTK+ 2.20.1; x86_64-unknown-linux-gnu) X-Location: Lower Mitcham, South Australia, 5062 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: On Mon, 23 Aug 2010 17:19:03 -0500 "Manfredi, Albert E" wrote: > Mark Smith: > > > Well, GPS was only one of the examples I used, and I was envisioning > > one that is built into the dash. To continue with the > > analogy, how many > > people would buy and install after-market electric windows, anti-lock > > brakes, electronic fuel injection etc.? > > Analogies work both ways. In the '50s, a "great idea" was the helicopter parked in everyone's driveway. Or at the very least, nuclear powered cars. Yet here we are today, still driving on four wheels and four pneumatic tires, with internal combustion engines. > All the technologies I listed both exist today and are common in cars that are designed today. Those technologies didn't exist in the 1970s, or if they did, were probably so prohibitively expensive that they either weren't even considered for cars or weren't affordable to put into cars. If you were to design a car today, would you limit it's design to incorporating technologies that were available 30 years ago? Possibly it will be surprising to a number of people on this list, but some of the ideas in IPv6 are over 30 years old, such as single, fixed size network and node portions, and using link layer addresses as layer 3 node addresses - "Address Mappings", Jonathan B. Postel, 2 May 1979 http://www.ietf.org/rfc/ien/ien91.txt > > The people who buy, deploy and operate the technology of the Internet > > are the customers of IPv6. > > See, that's not entirely the case. They are also people who merely specify the use of IPv6, without appreciating exactly what that means. > > And then there are those who must make that happen intelligently, so everything still works right and operates safely. > > Bert From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Wed Aug 25 02:55:32 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2079A3A6AB5 for ; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 02:55:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.37 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.37 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.899, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_EQ_AU=0.377, J_CHICKENPOX_13=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_51=0.6, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HCrZc1MYMEub for ; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 02:55:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1AD63A6AB4 for ; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 02:55:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OoCfq-000IdW-SL for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 09:53:38 +0000 Received: from [202.136.110.253] (helo=smtp1.adam.net.au) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OoCfn-000Icw-Hv for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 09:53:36 +0000 Received: from 114-30-113-67.ip.adam.com.au ([114.30.113.67] helo=opy.nosense.org) by smtp1.adam.net.au with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1OoCfh-0004mB-VM; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 19:23:30 +0930 Received: from opy.nosense.org (localhost.localdomain [IPv6:::1]) by opy.nosense.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F26F03B325; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 19:19:23 +0930 (CST) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 19:19:23 +0930 From: Mark Smith To: Christopher Morrow Cc: Jared Mauch , v6ops@ops.ietf.org, ipv6@ietf.org Subject: Re: ping-pong phenomenon with p2p links & /127 prefixes Message-ID: <20100825191923.3d7ee705@opy.nosense.org> In-Reply-To: References: <20100823063817.3de93c5f@opy.nosense.org> <20100823211909.279cd620@opy.nosense.org> <20100823.141104.74704994.sthaug@nethelp.no> <20100823224736.74b0747f@opy.nosense.org> <20100824061901.659fb937@opy.nosense.org> <8D7C8AE6-0D11-4896-B51C-A91668D45E4C@puck.nether.net> <20100824070830.0f3e2ff0@opy.nosense.org> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.7.6 (GTK+ 2.20.1; x86_64-unknown-linux-gnu) X-Location: Lower Mitcham, South Australia, 5062 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: On Wed, 25 Aug 2010 00:55:34 -0400 Christopher Morrow wrote: > On Mon, Aug 23, 2010 at 5:38 PM, Mark Smith > wrote: > > On Mon, 23 Aug 2010 17:23:09 -0400 > > Jared Mauch wrote: > > > >> > >> On Aug 23, 2010, at 4:49 PM, Mark Smith wrote: > >> > >> > On Mon, 23 Aug 2010 09:55:48 -0400 > >> > Jared Mauch wrote: > >> > > >> >> > >> >> On Aug 23, 2010, at 9:17 AM, Mark Smith wrote: > >> >> > >> >>> On Mon, 23 Aug 2010 14:11:04 +0200 (CEST) > >> >>> sthaug@nethelp.no wrote: > >> >>> > >> >>>>> These mechanisms are applicable to any type of link, would prese= rve the > >> >>>>> simplicity of universal 64 bit IIDs and the other benefits of th= em e.g. > >> >>>>> CGAs, as well as avoiding the ping-pong problem. > >> >>>> > >> >>>> IMHO, the "universality" of 64 bit IIDs went down the drain the m= oment > >> >>>> router vendors allowed longer than 64 bit netmasks to be configur= ed. > >> >>>> > >> >>> > >> >>> So how does that prevent those prefix lengths being changed to /64? > >> >> > >> >> Because you would then end up with overlapping address space that i= s unreachable in a production deployment. > >> >> > >> > > >> > Not necessarily. If I were to deploy /127s, I'd be allocating /64s to > >> > the links. > >> > >> You may put a /64 on your /127 links in addition, but most people only= put > >> one IP subnet on a link, otherwise they might want redirects ;) > >> > > > > I meant reserving a /64 for the link and then configuring a /127 prefix > > length on it. If my concerns about /64s were resolved, all I'd need to > > do would be change the prefix length back to a /64. >=20 > this means you're already doing what the draft is asking to codify? No I'm not. If somebody was to ask me what my advice was I'd recommend /64s for all links. I'd also point out the issue that /127s is trying to mitigate. I'd point out that I think there are feasible solutions that properly address this issue for all link types. I'd then recommend that if they want to use /127s, they reserve a /64 for those links, so that if and when those solutions become available, they can merely change the prefix length back to /64. > So, in short you support the idea of the draft you just have some > reservations about it covering all the bases you feel are important. >=20 What I'm against is unnecessary complexity, because, to quote "anonymous" on slashdot, "complex =3D more things that can break". Variable length interface identifiers, if they're unnecessary, only create more complexity and therefore more things that can break. If the interface identifier is universally the same size, then it'd be pretty hard for people to get the size wrong. The other thing that complexity creates is more choice. Technical people like choice. The problem with too much choice, however, is choice paralysis. If there are too many choices, it can become too risky to make one. With too much choice, it may not be possible to adequately weigh up the positive and negative consequences of all of the choices, and in particular the consequences of making a wrong choice. So not making a choice becomes less risky than making the wrong one. So, if we have /64s everywhere, and have them not vulnerable to issues that /127s mitigates (but only on point-to-point links), then I think /127s are unnecessary. That's one less unnecessary complexity. > > > >> >> But that would be an operational item and not an standards body ite= m? > >> >> > >> > > >> > This has been cross posted to v6ops. > >> > >> Operationally the vendors may be violating some RFC, so lets publish w= hat is > >> relevant and working today so we can all move on? =C2=A0We can deal wi= th > >> any additional updates and items with "how IPv6" works elsewhere or in= a > >> new document so we can move /127 on p2p links along? > >> > > > > So that leaves the problem still existing on network edge LANs and > > virtual P2P links between customer aggregation routers and CPE, of > > which there'l be millions. Maybe you, Steinar and Randy don't > > have to worry about those types of links, but others of us do. >=20 > are cable/dsl providers going to provision each p2p link to the end > customer with a /64? It's likely to be the common model. It's the simplest and most widely available option because it uses no more than the basic IPv6 RA/PIO mechanism and SLAAC, and therefore would be a baseline functionality expectation in both CPE and customer aggregation routers. > won't that just be 2 off-link /128's (today I see > mostly 2 off-link /32's I think?) and PD to send down the prefix the > operator decides is appropriate for in-home use? >=20 > If so, the /127 discussion isn't involved here, I think. >=20 > > A complete solution would solve the problem for all link types, not > > just mitigate it for point-to-point links in the backbone. >=20 > I think the only thing that's being addressed in this one draft is > codifying what's happening in practice today. So that vendors don't > accidentally 'fix' the 'bug' that permits /127's to work just fine. > since you stated earlier you already do this, No I don't use them, as mentioned earlier. > that seems to fit with your requirements as well, yes? >=20 > -chris From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Wed Aug 25 03:24:30 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCF693A6AAC for ; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 03:24:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.928 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.928 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.257, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_EQ_AU=0.377, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id y7ZksUSc6hSB for ; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 03:24:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6C5F3A6AC1 for ; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 03:24:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OoD6W-000MHN-7f for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 10:21:12 +0000 Received: from [202.136.110.253] (helo=smtp1.adam.net.au) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OoD6T-000MG1-Dr for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 10:21:09 +0000 Received: from 114-30-113-67.ip.adam.com.au ([114.30.113.67] helo=opy.nosense.org) by smtp1.adam.net.au with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1OoD6K-00061j-Rz; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 19:51:00 +0930 Received: from opy.nosense.org (localhost.localdomain [IPv6:::1]) by opy.nosense.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 31C663B325; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 19:46:55 +0930 (CST) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 19:46:55 +0930 From: Mark Smith To: Christopher Morrow Cc: Jared Mauch , v6ops@ops.ietf.org, ipv6@ietf.org Subject: Re: ping-pong phenomenon with p2p links & /127 prefixes Message-ID: <20100825194655.76f9b2f0@opy.nosense.org> In-Reply-To: References: <20100823063817.3de93c5f@opy.nosense.org> <20100823211909.279cd620@opy.nosense.org> <20100823.141104.74704994.sthaug@nethelp.no> <20100823224736.74b0747f@opy.nosense.org> <20100824061901.659fb937@opy.nosense.org> <8D7C8AE6-0D11-4896-B51C-A91668D45E4C@puck.nether.net> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.7.6 (GTK+ 2.20.1; x86_64-unknown-linux-gnu) X-Location: Lower Mitcham, South Australia, 5062 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: On Wed, 25 Aug 2010 00:57:12 -0400 Christopher Morrow wrote: > On Mon, Aug 23, 2010 at 5:23 PM, Jared Mauch wrot= e: > > Operationally the vendors may be violating some RFC, so lets publish wh= at is > > relevant and working today so we can all move on? =C2=A0We can deal with > > any additional updates and items with "how IPv6" works elsewhere or in a > > new document so we can move /127 on p2p links along? >=20 > I like this as well.. if other link types would like special handling > can't they also gin up some rfc-text and refer to the work done here > as a stepping stone to their answer? >=20 If they did, I think they'd be missing the idea of implementing layer 3 to layer 2 address resolution within ICMPv6, instead of following the IPv4 model of having parallel and separate address resolution protocol like ARP. (Maybe ARP would have been implemented in ICMP if they hadn't decided to make it a more general purpose protocol that could suit Ethernet address resolution for multiple layer 3 protocols, such as Chaosnet, IPv4 and Xerox PUP) The idea in IPv6 is to try as much as possible to avoid treating link types specially, so that for new link types, new layer 3 to layer 2 protocols don't have to be developed. The only link layer capabilities Neighbor Discovery Address Resolution requires is unicast and multicast. If they can be provided, or emulated, such as in the cast of multicast over point-to-point links, then there isn't any need to create new protocols and additional complexity (because complex =3D more things that can break). It is simpler, when you can, to treat everything the same. Regards, Mark. From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Wed Aug 25 07:23:46 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A28E3A6AFA for ; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 07:23:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -108.569 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-108.569 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.075, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_BACKHAIR_11=1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, RDNS_NONE=0.1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3DGLzflNPsvb for ; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 07:23:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A65B3A6B06 for ; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 07:23:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OoGoD-0000Hn-BG for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 14:18:33 +0000 Received: from [171.71.176.70] (helo=sj-iport-1.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OoGo9-0000H2-Ne for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 14:18:29 +0000 Authentication-Results: sj-iport-1.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AnQFAMfCdEyrR7Ht/2dsb2JhbACBQ5FijR9xn1icDIU3BIFXgmOFSQ X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.56,268,1280707200"; d="scan'208,217";a="355214494" Received: from sj-core-1.cisco.com ([171.71.177.237]) by sj-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 25 Aug 2010 14:18:29 +0000 Received: from stealth-10-32-244-222.cisco.com (stealth-10-32-244-222.cisco.com [10.32.244.222]) by sj-core-1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o7PEILhB000939; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 14:18:23 GMT Received: from [127.0.0.1] by stealth-10-32-244-222.cisco.com (PGP Universal service); Wed, 25 Aug 2010 07:18:28 -0700 X-PGP-Universal: processed; by stealth-10-32-244-222.cisco.com on Wed, 25 Aug 2010 07:18:28 -0700 Subject: Re: [v4tov6transition] draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1081) From: Fred Baker In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 07:18:14 -0700 Cc: huang cancan , Kurt Erik Lindqvist , IPv6 v6ops , v4tov6transition@ietf.org Message-Id: References: To: "Yiu L. Lee" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1081) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-9--503982943 Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: --Apple-Mail-9--503982943 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 On Aug 25, 2010, at 7:05 AM, Yiu L. Lee wrote: > =46rom user=92s perspective, do they care IPv4 or IPv6? Most don=92t. = For example: a casual web user wants to access his/her favorite = IPv4-only website. If his web client and PC support IPv6 and on an = IPv6-only network with NAT64, the web traffic will go through the NAT = once. If his web client and PC support IPv4-only on an IPv4 network with = NAT444, the web traffic will go through the NAT twice. In the end, = he/she still gets the same content. =46rom this perspective, both = experience =93could be=94 very similar.=20 Yes and no. For the web, which is a client-server protocol, you are = correct. Any protocol that requires the receiver to have a stable = address at the time the sender decides to send to it - a server of any = kind, or a peer-to-peer protocol like SIP - one has to have some kind of = NAT-traversal mechanism to cross it - it pretty much becomes a service = the user is sold or (think bittorrent) the application goes through some = kind of hijinks to evade the service provider. For the user, the freedom = of being able to use such applications without heaving to have them as a = service has been one of the drivers of p2p applications. > However, this use case is rather limited and not applicable to many = applications. This is why I said =93could be=94. Also, both Cameron and = I agree that this is easier to implement IPv6-only on mobile network = than on fixed network because mobile operators have more control over = the devices and apps. IMHO, it will take longer time for fixed network = operators to support NAT64 only solution in the network. CERNET/CERNET2 started from stateless translation, and is a fixed = network. So I would be careful saying "never". But frankly, the solution = for the fixed operators is not translation 6<->4; it is IPv6 deployment. On 8/25/10 9:41 AM, "huang cancan" wrote: >> well, I mean: why customer experience of IPv4-only + NAT444 could be = the same as IPv6-only + NAT64? >>=20 >> On Wed, Aug 25, 2010 at 9:24 PM, Yiu L. Lee = wrote: >>> In order to deploy IPv6-only + NAT64, the client and network must = talk IPv6. It also requires DNS64. These requirements are not needed for = IPv4-only + NAT444. =46rom the deployment point of view, they are very = different technologies.=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> On 8/25/10 7:13 AM, "huang cancan" > wrote: >>>=20 >>>> hi,Yiu: >>>> As you mentioned below: >>>> > All I am saying is the customer >>>> > experience of IPv4-only + NAT444 could be the same as IPv6-only + = NAT64, but >>>> > the technologies and plan to offer these service are very = different. >>>> =20 >>>> Do you have any test data to support this conclusion? >>>> =20 >>>> Can-can Huang >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> On Sat, Aug 21, 2010 at 7:37 AM, Yiu L. Lee = > wrote: >>>>>=20 >>>>> > Agreed. The 2x cost is really just the packet core ... which is = of >>>>> > course a lot of money to double for no tangible benefit ..... = talk >>>>> > about no business case .... And, still have numbering issues, = customer >>>>> > experience is the same as IPv4-only + NAT44 and approximately = the same >>>>> > as IPv6-only + NAT64 >>>>> > >>>>> Life cycle of mobile equipments could be every 2-3 years, but life = cycle of >>>>> consumer electronics could be 5+ years. Consider many large TVs = with >>>>> Internet service selling today are still running IPv4-only, fixed = line >>>>> operators must prepare to support them in foreseeable future. >>>>>=20 >>>>> That said, I am not saying an operator must build a dual-stack = core network, >>>>> there are technologies such as DS-lite and Softwire Mesh available = to run a >>>>> pure IPv6 core network with dual-stack edge. All I am saying is = the customer >>>>> experience of IPv4-only + NAT444 could be the same as IPv6-only + = NAT64, but >>>>> the technologies and plan to offer these service are very = different. >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> v4tov6transition mailing list >>>>> v4tov6transition@ietf.org =20 >>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v4tov6transition >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>=20 >>=20 > _______________________________________________ > v4tov6transition mailing list > v4tov6transition@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v4tov6transition --Apple-Mail-9--503982943 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252
=46rom user=92s perspective, do they care IPv4 = or IPv6? Most don=92t. For example: a casual web user wants to access = his/her favorite IPv4-only website. If his web client and PC support = IPv6 and on an IPv6-only network with NAT64, the web traffic will go = through the NAT once. If his web client and PC support IPv4-only on an = IPv4 network with NAT444, the web traffic will go through the NAT twice. = In the end, he/she still gets the same content. =46rom this perspective, = both experience =93could be=94 very similar. =

Yes and no. For the web, which is = a client-server protocol, you are correct. Any protocol that requires = the receiver to have a stable address at the time the sender decides to = send to it - a server of any kind, or a peer-to-peer protocol like SIP - = one has to have some kind of NAT-traversal mechanism to cross it - it = pretty much becomes a service the user is sold or (think bittorrent) the = application goes through some kind of hijinks to evade the service = provider. For the user, the freedom of being able to use such = applications without heaving to have them as a service has been one of = the drivers of p2p applications.

However, this use case is rather limited and not applicable to many = applications. This is why I said =93could be=94. Also, both Cameron and = I agree that this is easier to implement IPv6-only on mobile network = than on fixed network because mobile operators have more control over = the devices and apps. IMHO, it will take longer time for fixed network = operators to support NAT64 only solution in the = network.

CERNET/CERNET2 = started from stateless translation, and is a fixed network. So I would = be careful saying "never". But frankly, the solution for the fixed = operators is not translation 6<->4; it is IPv6 = deployment.

On 8/25/10 9:41 AM, "huang cancan" <cancanhuang110@gmail.com= > wrote:

well, I mean: why customer experience of IPv4-only + NAT444 = could be the same as IPv6-only + NAT64?

On Wed, Aug 25, 2010 at 9:24 PM, Yiu L. Lee <yiu_lee@cable.comcast.com> wrote:
In order to deploy = IPv6-only + NAT64, the client and network must talk IPv6. It also = requires DNS64. These requirements are not needed for IPv4-only + = NAT444. =46rom the deployment point of view, they are very different = technologies.



On 8/25/10 7:13 AM, "huang cancan" <cancanhuang110@gmail.com= <http://cancanhuang110@gmail.com<= /a>> > wrote:

hi,Yiu:
  As you mentioned below:
> All I am saying is the customer
> experience of IPv4-only + NAT444 could be the same as IPv6-only + = NAT64, but
> the technologies and plan to offer these service are very = different.
 
  Do you have any test data to support this conclusion?
 
Can-can Huang


On Sat, Aug 21, 2010 at 7:37 AM, Yiu L. Lee <yiu_lee@cable.comcast.com <http://yiu_lee@cable.comcast.co= m> > wrote:

> Agreed.  The 2x cost is really just the packet core ... which = is of
> course a lot of money to double for no tangible benefit ..... = talk
> about no business case .... And, still have numbering issues, = customer
> experience is the same as IPv4-only + NAT44 and approximately the = same
> as IPv6-only + NAT64
>
Life cycle of mobile equipments could be every 2-3 years, but life cycle = of
consumer electronics could be 5+ years. Consider many large TVs with
Internet service selling today are still running IPv4-only, fixed = line
operators must prepare to support them in foreseeable future.

That said, I am not saying an operator must build a dual-stack core = network,
there are technologies such as DS-lite and Softwire Mesh available to = run a
pure IPv6 core network with dual-stack edge. All I am saying is the = customer
experience of IPv4-only + NAT444 could be the same as IPv6-only + NAT64, = but
the technologies and plan to offer these service are very different.



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v4tov6transition mailing list
v4tov6transition@ietf.org <http://v4tov6transition@ietf.or= g>
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= --Apple-Mail-9--503982943-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Wed Aug 25 07:50:49 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27E223A6B0F for ; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 07:50:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.114 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.114 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.014, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_BACKHAIR_11=1, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LXlVFD56IkvO for ; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 07:50:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86FCC3A6AF9 for ; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 07:50:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OoHHp-0004Kt-Sv for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 14:49:09 +0000 Received: from [209.85.210.52] (helo=mail-pz0-f52.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OoHHn-0004KR-Ni for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 14:49:07 +0000 Received: by pzk27 with SMTP id 27so373989pzk.11 for ; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 07:49:04 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.115.18.12 with SMTP id v12mr6844712wai.114.1282747744151; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 07:49:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.220.193.66 with HTTP; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 07:49:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Originating-IP: [128.223.156.117] In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 07:49:03 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [v4tov6transition] draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC From: David Meyer To: Fred Baker Cc: "Yiu L. Lee" , huang cancan , Kurt Erik Lindqvist , IPv6 v6ops , v4tov6transition@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016363b9698a087a9048ea6fb82 Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: --0016363b9698a087a9048ea6fb82 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 CERNET/CERNET2 started from stateless translation, and is a fixed network. > So I would be careful saying "never". But frankly, the solution for the > fixed operators is not translation 6<->4; it is IPv6 deployment. > I have to agree with Fred here. While there may be advantages to PT in some cases, native IPv6 deployment has the advantage of preserving end-to-end (choose your definition of e2e), among others. Dave --0016363b9698a087a9048ea6fb82 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

= CERNET/CERNET2 started from stateless translation, and is a fixed network. = So I would be careful saying "never". But frankly, the solution f= or the fixed operators is not translation 6<->4; it is IPv6 deploymen= t.

I have to agree with Fred here= . While there may be advantages to
PT in some cases, native IPv6 = deployment has the advantage of
preserving end-to-end (choose you= r definition of e2e), among others.=A0


Dave

=A0
<= /div>
--0016363b9698a087a9048ea6fb82-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Wed Aug 25 08:10:30 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 486B03A6B27 for ; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 08:10:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.307 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.307 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.435, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8ANUynN78IPK for ; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 08:10:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4205F3A6B12 for ; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 08:10:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OoHb9-00075y-5u for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 15:09:07 +0000 Received: from [209.85.212.180] (helo=mail-px0-f180.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OoHb6-000759-WD for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 15:09:05 +0000 Received: by pxi7 with SMTP id 7so382443pxi.11 for ; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 08:09:04 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.142.192.9 with SMTP id p9mr3631662wff.46.1282748944254; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 08:09:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.220.193.66 with HTTP; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 08:09:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Originating-IP: [128.223.156.117] In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 08:09:04 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [v4tov6transition] draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC From: David Meyer To: "Yiu L. Lee" Cc: Fred Baker , huang cancan , Kurt Erik Lindqvist , IPv6 v6ops , v4tov6transition@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=000e0cd23b842886d2048ea7432c Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: --000e0cd23b842886d2048ea7432c Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Yiu, On Wed, Aug 25, 2010 at 8:00 AM, Yiu L. Lee wrote: > e2e IPv6 is the goal, nobody argues with it. However, China Telecom said > they would put 100+ million customers in the next 3 years. Obviously neither > they would get 100+ million public IPv4 addresses nor all the services in > the world would be IPv6 ready. Yes 6->4 may not be an immediate problem we > try to solve, but IPv4 exhaustion problem is immediate. I guess we are all > here to find out the real problems and give guidelines to solve the IPv4 > exhaustion problem and deploy IPv6 in parallel. > > Sure, and this seems like exactly the use case where you might need PT (6to4), since as you say, you need IPv6 to address the 10^8 hosts but those hosts will want to talk to some non-zero number of IPv4 services. Dave --000e0cd23b842886d2048ea7432c Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yiu,

On Wed, Aug 25, 2010 at 8:00 AM, Yiu= L. Lee <= yiu_lee@cable.comcast.com> wrote:
e2e IPv6 is the goal, nobody argues with it. However, China Telecom s= aid they would put 100+ million customers in the next 3 years. Obviously ne= ither they would get 100+ million public IPv4 addresses nor all the service= s in the world would be IPv6 ready. Yes 6->4 may not be an immediate pro= blem we try to solve, but IPv4 exhaustion problem is immediate. I guess we = are all here to find out the real problems and give guidelines to solve the= IPv4 exhaustion problem and deploy IPv6 in parallel.


Sure, and this see= ms like exactly the use case where you might
need PT (6to4), sinc= e as you say, you need IPv6 to address the=A0
10^8 hosts but thos= e hosts will want to talk to some non-zero
number of IPv4 services.

Dave

<= /div>

=A0

--000e0cd23b842886d2048ea7432c-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Wed Aug 25 08:28:28 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCD543A69DA for ; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 08:28:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.002 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.002 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.403, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_BACKHAIR_11=1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sx8INpEB3RV7 for ; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 08:28:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01FBC3A6885 for ; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 08:28:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OoHr2-0009by-Oy for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 15:25:32 +0000 Received: from [2001:418:1::40] (helo=ran.psg.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OoHr0-0009bd-NM for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 15:25:30 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=rmac.psg.com.psg.com) by ran.psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OoHqr-000CMC-8j; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 15:25:21 +0000 Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 00:25:20 +0900 Message-ID: From: Randy Bush To: Fred Baker Cc: "Yiu L. Lee" , huang cancan , Kurt Erik Lindqvist , IPv6 v6ops , v4tov6transition@ietf.org Subject: Re: [v4tov6transition] draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC In-Reply-To: References: User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 (Almost Unreal) Emacs/22.3 Mule/5.0 (SAKAKI) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI 1.14.6 - "Maruoka") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: > the solution for the fixed operators is not translation 6<->4; it is > IPv6 deployment. i suspect we do not disagree, but just to clarify. fixed operators (in the non-wireless-phone sense) need to support home, enterprise, etc. customers who will have both ipv4 and, we hope, ipv6 needs for a while. so we need to deploy ipv6 *along side* ipv4, i.e. dual stack. stateless translation tools do not scale or perform well at isp backbone scale. our dual stack edge customers will use our dual stack backbones in a simple fashion, no impedance matching needed. the ipv6-only customer will need nat64/dns64 to reach legacy ipv4-only destinations. the ipv4-only customer will use ______ to reach ipv6-only destinations? randy From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Wed Aug 25 08:30:44 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F251F3A69DA for ; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 08:30:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -109.068 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-109.068 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.573, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, RDNS_NONE=0.1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cSnth8ZJCKnb for ; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 08:30:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 262653A6A4C for ; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 08:30:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OoHw1-000AGm-Bi for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 15:30:41 +0000 Received: from [171.71.176.70] (helo=sj-iport-1.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OoHvz-000AGG-2t for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 15:30:39 +0000 Authentication-Results: sj-iport-1.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AvsEABLUdEyrR7Ht/2dsb2JhbACgP3GgPJwYhTcEhDqFSQ X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.56,269,1280707200"; d="scan'208";a="355239883" Received: from sj-core-1.cisco.com ([171.71.177.237]) by sj-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 25 Aug 2010 15:30:38 +0000 Received: from stealth-10-32-244-222.cisco.com (stealth-10-32-244-222.cisco.com [10.32.244.222]) by sj-core-1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o7PFUVk6011805; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 15:30:33 GMT Received: from [127.0.0.1] by stealth-10-32-244-222.cisco.com (PGP Universal service); Wed, 25 Aug 2010 08:30:38 -0700 X-PGP-Universal: processed; by stealth-10-32-244-222.cisco.com on Wed, 25 Aug 2010 08:30:38 -0700 Subject: Re: [v4tov6transition] draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1081) From: Fred Baker In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 08:30:24 -0700 Cc: "Yiu L. Lee" , huang cancan , Kurt Erik Lindqvist , IPv6 v6ops , v4tov6transition@ietf.org Message-Id: References: To: Randy Bush X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1081) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: On Aug 25, 2010, at 8:25 AM, Randy Bush wrote: > the ipv4-only customer will use ______ to reach ipv6-only destinations? that of course would have to be stateless translation or ds-lite. From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Wed Aug 25 08:48:17 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 313533A6B0E for ; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 08:48:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.498 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.498 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.101, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TU8Pzzl+gLeP for ; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 08:48:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D54E3A6AD0 for ; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 08:48:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OoIBt-000CTe-4l for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 15:47:05 +0000 Received: from [2001:418:1::40] (helo=ran.psg.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OoIBr-000CTL-7t for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 15:47:03 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=rmac.psg.com.psg.com) by ran.psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OoIBq-000CQS-JD; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 15:47:02 +0000 Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 00:47:01 +0900 Message-ID: From: Randy Bush To: Alain Durand Cc: IPv6 v6ops Subject: Re: [v4tov6transition] draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC In-Reply-To: <074F8B90-7793-4DBC-ABEF-1864CE1277A9@juniper.net> References: <074F8B90-7793-4DBC-ABEF-1864CE1277A9@juniper.net> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 (Almost Unreal) Emacs/22.3 Mule/5.0 (SAKAKI) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI 1.14.6 - "Maruoka") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: >>> the ipv4-only customer will use ______ to reach ipv6-only destinations? >> that of course would have to be stateless translation or ds-lite > > Wrong direction... DS-lite would enable a customer that is physically > connected to a v6-only network to contact v4 nodes using his v4 apps. > > Think more 6rd in that case to make that customer v6 capable no thanks. i have a dual stack backbone. i don't need or want to fake v6. > or some variation on NAT46. is nat46 in the cards? i thought that died in montreal or shortly thereafter. randy From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Wed Aug 25 09:02:11 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F3943A6B2C for ; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 09:02:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.499 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.499 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.100, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qOb34GNvmTf1 for ; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 09:02:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81C013A6B28 for ; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 09:02:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OoIPk-000EVV-Fv for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 16:01:24 +0000 Received: from [2001:418:1::40] (helo=ran.psg.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OoIPi-000EVF-IN for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 16:01:22 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=rmac.psg.com.psg.com) by ran.psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OoIPi-000CT0-4V; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 16:01:22 +0000 Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 01:01:21 +0900 Message-ID: From: Randy Bush To: Victor Kuarsingh Cc: IPv6 v6ops Subject: Re: [v4tov6transition] draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC In-Reply-To: References: User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 (Almost Unreal) Emacs/22.3 Mule/5.0 (SAKAKI) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI 1.14.6 - "Maruoka") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: >> the ipv4-only customer will use ______ to reach ipv6-only >> destinations? > If what we mean here is the the operator only provided an IPv4 address > to a IPv6-capable device that is not what i meant. i meant ... > If what we mean here is that the end device is addressed with > IPv4-only and is also IPv4-only-capable (i.e. XP without v6 stack > enabled), then this is not longer just a network connectivity issue. > We are now looking at how to make IPv6 content (for example) available > to IPv4 endpoints (proxy? NAT46 [scary?], Other mechanisms?). exactly. i would add 'disgusting.' but i am not known for tact. i was just enumerating the cases. and they all exist. of course a v4 customer wanting access to v6 only content over my dual stack backbone may be a while off. but we do hope it will come. and when it does, how do we support it? randy From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Wed Aug 25 09:05:23 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 876853A6B4D for ; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 09:05:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.052 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.052 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.557, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QUZpsNydThTf for ; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 09:04:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4C1D3A6B21 for ; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 09:04:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OoISa-000EwC-Ce for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 16:04:20 +0000 Received: from [74.125.83.52] (helo=mail-gw0-f52.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OoISY-000Evk-6O for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 16:04:18 +0000 Received: by gwj20 with SMTP id 20so379840gwj.11 for ; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 09:04:17 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:received:in-reply-to :references:date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=29N50NLRLqZgauFDP/XLs78lgZu68YFGPAk13NSU7f4=; b=cU3F3YOX3+x0nYfM7rShC7Njym37yn4q2JBZOt7bZ7kkMp+4z3pKG5LuLE7r0TJcL4 2f6sHtEG94TF2HakeKUyKClBOCs3NwBngtfgGmZkebIjbRUDHNtBpuWYLRMuGOLI/RaZ iB+Av6pABwW+bc3XPqcXZRX2LHJXojvbEoK1E= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; b=FziiPPEzNrq+asYjGUTL9JNx7ZTkM8aCaFLfCkQe5GZgKiwWAqrNgCJk+LTiVQZ2Wv vvpulerCr+nUZFpE0B4R6K74W2apqlkh/+nD6XX4yF3r6hHlsMp1C1ksoiC2qST8ELPE LG4ZXSQnhTg4yUgaAtqm4FtBQtuAfZomHRYKQ= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.151.62.21 with SMTP id p21mr9207963ybk.170.1282752256990; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 09:04:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.189.4 with HTTP; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 09:04:16 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 09:04:16 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [v4tov6transition] draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC From: Cameron Byrne To: "Yiu L. Lee" Cc: David Meyer , Fred Baker , IPv6 v6ops , v4tov6transition@ietf.org, Kurt Erik Lindqvist Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: On Wed, Aug 25, 2010 at 8:00 AM, Yiu L. Lee wrote: > e2e IPv6 is the goal, nobody argues with it. However, China Telecom said > they would put 100+ million customers in the next 3 years. Obviously neither > they would get 100+ million public IPv4 addresses nor all the services in > the world would be IPv6 ready. Yes 6->4 may not be an immediate problem we > try to solve, but IPv4 exhaustion problem is immediate. I guess we are all > here to find out the real problems and give guidelines to solve the IPv4 > exhaustion problem and deploy IPv6 in parallel. > +1 For me, the problem is uniquely numbering a very large number of NEW (m2m, mobile web, current BOGON mess, current n*RFC1918 mess...) hosts given that IPv4 (public and private), for all intents and purposes, is strategically (think current planning cycle) exhausted. My belief is that the reality of edge growth (especially in mobile) will force IPv6 deployments instead of counter-productive NAT444 and RFC1918 version 2. IPv6-only edge deployments will force NAT64 (more in mobile) and DSlite (more in fixed). The obvious disadvantages of DSlite and NAT64 will encourage all parties involved (users, SP, content) to earnestly TRANSITION to IPv6. And, hopefully, NAT64 and DSlite will only be a crutch for the long-tail. For my users in the USA, that fact that Facebook and Google / Youtube are already IPv6 make my last statement very close to being true today. From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Wed Aug 25 09:10:41 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D3BB3A6B48 for ; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 09:10:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.5 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.099, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4iwpxI4UtNqG for ; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 09:10:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 861A63A6879 for ; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 09:10:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OoIYD-000Fn5-SX for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 16:10:09 +0000 Received: from [2001:418:1::40] (helo=ran.psg.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OoIYB-000Fmp-VU for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 16:10:07 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=rmac.psg.com.psg.com) by ran.psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OoIYB-000CUf-Cg; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 16:10:07 +0000 Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 01:10:06 +0900 Message-ID: From: Randy Bush To: Cameron Byrne Cc: IPv6 v6ops Subject: Re: [v4tov6transition] draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC In-Reply-To: References: User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 (Almost Unreal) Emacs/22.3 Mule/5.0 (SAKAKI) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI 1.14.6 - "Maruoka") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: > My belief is that the reality of edge growth (especially in mobile) > will force IPv6 deployments instead of counter-productive NAT444 and > RFC1918 version 2. i wish i had your optimism. that would be sooooo coooool! randy From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Wed Aug 25 09:10:42 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F9083A68AE for ; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 09:10:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.911 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.911 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.416, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HnQHp-YNNY+s for ; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 09:10:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9BE553A6B46 for ; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 09:10:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OoIYN-000FoY-EH for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 16:10:19 +0000 Received: from [209.85.160.180] (helo=mail-gy0-f180.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OoIYK-000Fo4-Vp for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 16:10:17 +0000 Received: by gyh3 with SMTP id 3so185676gyh.11 for ; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 09:10:15 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:received:in-reply-to :references:date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=/+NcwgAp//Jtnzygs9zCYgrjTkBw73dd57zcwcEHGsY=; b=sAYYDMR3ArGK9E18Etx1c5leQu0zQsmCFUbxP1GZmsrPEyjqHSvNxUt22hkRDZEEyw sQl+nI+l86s+p26wKG0eSpAfiRC/Mq2SGoMDqdZ6/paStppkM7g7peGTa7S3XxKThDGn l7edW+6LB5GxYM+3oUV29gG0LmK8cnG7THQCc= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=sgg47n93kfpGiqpBpdX+HFU4Xb66lY+TSvnmoxqvCciJOnxImAtmCO+Kq2AT2hcGcw l78qPol02YFEktt0tAOMsz/pN09nN1OsAgmEwOUwhF136inJ73buZxxtFI4SynY3ftKs RvF550cX0V9G+W86LOO47NCfiOUPN8ySGpzpc= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.150.201.15 with SMTP id y15mr4624461ybf.316.1282752613673; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 09:10:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.189.4 with HTTP; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 09:10:13 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 09:10:13 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [v4tov6transition] draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC From: Cameron Byrne To: "Yiu L. Lee" Cc: David Meyer , Erik Lindqvist , IPv6 v6ops , Kurt@core3.amsl.com, v4tov6transition@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: On Wed, Aug 25, 2010 at 9:03 AM, Yiu L. Lee wro= te: > Hi Dave, > > Well, I can=92t imagine an operator can launch an IPv6-only service with = NAT64 > to its customers in the next 3 years even the projection of growth is 10^= 8. > =A0The roadblock is the legacy IPv4-only hosts (TV, xbox, PS3, WinXP, etc= ) in > customer=92s homes. > T-Mobile USA will launch IPv6-only + NAT64 in the next ~12 months for a controlled set of new handsets models directed at consumers. The service is up and running today and you can try it if you like at http://groups.google.com/group/tmoipv6beta I have been using IPv6-only + NAT64 for the past 6 months, no major issues. ~99% of apps work (thank you IP version agnostic API / SDK), content works (very few IPv4 literals), .... It's really not the problem that many may think it is .... especially if you are a mobile operator. For mobile, LSN is not a new and neither is RFC1918 exhaust. Regards, Cameron From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Wed Aug 25 09:29:35 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E3F23A6AFC for ; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 09:29:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -108.553 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-108.553 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.058, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, J_BACKHAIR_11=1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, RDNS_NONE=0.1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AxmgQlfa8kYV for ; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 09:29:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 053353A6896 for ; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 09:29:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OoIo2-000IP7-Mr for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 16:26:30 +0000 Received: from [171.71.176.71] (helo=sj-iport-2.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OoInz-000IOg-Un for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 16:26:28 +0000 Authentication-Results: sj-iport-2.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AvsEAHnhdEyrR7Hu/2dsb2JhbACgPXGhL5wZhTcEhDqFSQ X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.56,269,1280707200"; d="scan'208";a="274550609" Received: from sj-core-5.cisco.com ([171.71.177.238]) by sj-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 25 Aug 2010 16:26:27 +0000 Received: from stealth-10-32-244-222.cisco.com (stealth-10-32-244-222.cisco.com [10.32.244.222]) by sj-core-5.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o7PGQ7YG026957; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 16:26:11 GMT Received: from [127.0.0.1] by stealth-10-32-244-222.cisco.com (PGP Universal service); Wed, 25 Aug 2010 09:26:23 -0700 X-PGP-Universal: processed; by stealth-10-32-244-222.cisco.com on Wed, 25 Aug 2010 09:26:23 -0700 Subject: Re: [v4tov6transition] draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1081) From: Fred Baker In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 09:25:58 -0700 Cc: David Meyer , huang cancan , Kurt Erik Lindqvist , IPv6 v6ops , Message-Id: <1267DE09-3BBB-45C7-897C-6F8620F22AB4@cisco.com> References: To: "Yiu L. Lee" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1081) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: On Aug 25, 2010, at 8:00 AM, Yiu L. Lee wrote: > e2e IPv6 is the goal, nobody argues with it. However, China Telecom = said they would put 100+ million customers in the next 3 years. = Obviously neither they would get 100+ million public IPv4 addresses nor = all the services in the world would be IPv6 ready. Yes 6->4 may not be = an immediate problem we try to solve, but IPv4 exhaustion problem is = immediate. I guess we are all here to find out the real problems and = give guidelines to solve the IPv4 exhaustion problem and deploy IPv6 in = parallel. Yes. =46rom my admittedly-narrow perspective, it's primarily about = turning on IPv6; you're not going to "solve" IPv4 exhaustion - it's not = going to somehow become less exhausted. So if I may rephrase; it's about = how to keep your IPv4 business running while you deploy IPv6. If you = have an IPv4 network now, I would add "in your IPv4 network". If you = have a green field, we built the translation technology in behave and it = is now available from at least one vendor, and we have tunneling = capabilities. What I find a lot of is people letting the "how will I = access IPv4" question get in the way of deploying IPv6. It brings to my mind a joke common in the US that may not be in China. I = googled to find the canonical image, and mostly found US political = humor. So I'll describe it. The picture shows either a person walking = through a swamp and therefore waist-deep or chest-deep in water, or = (funnier version) someone climbing a small tree in a swamp, desperately = trying to get away from what is below. Caption: "when you're up to your = ass in alligators (or snakes), it's hard to remember that you set out to = drain the swamp". Based on the image, you will find Americans frequently = talk about solving a big problem in terms of "draining the swamp". In this case, "draining the swamp" is IPv6 deployment. At the point = where we have universal deployment, this entire discussion will seem to = have been a little pointless. Right now, the pressures of IPv4 access = can seem overwhelming.=20 The point of the joke is an object lesson in problem-solving. Yes, = alligators and snakes are a problem, and have to be dealt with. If you = let the issues consume you, that's all that will happen - you will be = caught in the middle in perpetuity. If you focus on the objective, which = is solving the "big problem", in this case IPv6 deployment, in time you = will find that you have also solved the other. So yes, deal with what = you have to, but don't let yourself be distracted from the real problem = at hand. In this case, deal with IPv4 of course, but don't let that = concern slow you down in deploying IPv6. If you have an existing IPv4 network, Free.FR deployed an IPv6 service = in their existing IPv4 network using 6rd with a team of a couple of = people and a month's time if I have the story straight. That involved = almost no actual native IPv6; 6rd is an IPv6/IPv4 tunnel infrastructure. = But it allowed them to provide both IPv4 and IPv6 *services* to their = customers while they took time to think about what they wanted to do = natively. They can change their network under the hood, so to speak, an = their own schedule. Changing the network under the hood - that is the process hardware and = software audit and upgrade, proving out configurations, and applying = them where needed. No intention to trivialize, but if one can separate = "delivery of the service" from "deployment of the technology", it might = make the road a little easier. Comcast has been a proponent of ds-lite. In this some portion of the = network (at least one router or one link, but I should think more in = practice) is converted to IPv6-only, and IPv4/IPv6 tunneling is used to = carry IPv4 over that infrastructure to an IPv4/IPv4 NAT. IPv4 service is = provided by tunnel while IPv6 is deployed natively. 3GPP has expressed = interest in this approach, and specifically gateway-initiated ds-lite; = in green field networks, several carriers (T-Mobile and Sprint that I = know of, and I know of more that have talked about it) have deployed = IPv6-only and used some form of tunnel infrastructure to provide IPv4 = access, again through IPv4/IPv4 NAT. The number of wireline networks that have literally turned up IPv6 = within their existing IPv4 networks is pretty large. Many of them are on = this list - Randy's comment a moment ago epitomizes their viewpoint. I = don't think any of them would describe it as "without challenges", but I = do get a lot of them quizzically wondering what the question here is. = "So you have IPv4 access to IPv4 systems, and you have IPv6 access to = IPv6 systems. Your point is what precisely?" Comments I get suggest that = solutions like 6to4 and ISATAP are interesting ways to prototype the = service, but if you need to do a build-out, they are science fair = projects by comparison, primarily useful for testing IPv6 applications = in a pre-IPv6 network. And yes, CERNET's case demonstrates that stateless translation between = an IPv4-only infrastructure and an IPv6-only infrastructure in fact = works. If it were my network to deploy in - and yes, this is the advice I am = giving in my own shop - I think there are solutions on the table that = have been shown to work. I would say "Pick one and do it". The hardest = step in any journey is the first one. Take it, and you're that much = closer to the destination. > Yiu >=20 > On 8/25/10 10:49 AM, "David Meyer" wrote: >=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>> CERNET/CERNET2 started from stateless translation, and is a fixed = network. So I would be careful saying "never". But frankly, the solution = for the fixed operators is not translation 6<->4; it is IPv6 deployment. >>=20 >> I have to agree with Fred here. While there may be advantages to >> PT in some cases, native IPv6 deployment has the advantage of >> preserving end-to-end (choose your definition of e2e), among others.=20= >>=20 >>=20 >> Dave >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >>=20 From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Wed Aug 25 09:30:12 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9ECD3A6879 for ; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 09:30:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -109.047 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-109.047 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.552, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, RDNS_NONE=0.1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QUjrcZL99oOh for ; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 09:30:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E71473A6887 for ; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 09:30:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OoIrd-000Iue-CZ for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 16:30:13 +0000 Received: from [171.71.176.70] (helo=sj-iport-1.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OoIrb-000IuM-3J for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 16:30:11 +0000 Authentication-Results: sj-iport-1.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AvsEAGHidEyrR7H+/2dsb2JhbACgPXGhPpwYhTcEhDqFSQ X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.56,269,1280707200"; d="scan'208";a="355266243" Received: from sj-core-2.cisco.com ([171.71.177.254]) by sj-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 25 Aug 2010 16:30:10 +0000 Received: from stealth-10-32-244-222.cisco.com (stealth-10-32-244-222.cisco.com [10.32.244.222]) by sj-core-2.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o7PGTsYZ002838; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 16:29:58 GMT Received: from [127.0.0.1] by stealth-10-32-244-222.cisco.com (PGP Universal service); Wed, 25 Aug 2010 09:30:08 -0700 X-PGP-Universal: processed; by stealth-10-32-244-222.cisco.com on Wed, 25 Aug 2010 09:30:08 -0700 Subject: Re: [v4tov6transition] draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1081) From: Fred Baker In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 09:29:46 -0700 Cc: Cameron Byrne , David Meyer , IPv6 v6ops , , Kurt Erik Lindqvist Message-Id: <7EDE5F60-13BD-4546-9870-0B1860F7765A@cisco.com> References: To: "Yiu L. Lee" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1081) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: On Aug 25, 2010, at 9:23 AM, Yiu L. Lee wrote: > I see NAT64 and DS-lite are like Win9x technology. After few years, = most > people saw the benefits of the new kernel and most developers found it > expensive to build/support two code streams for the same application. > Eventually, almost every Windows user and developer migrated to 2000, = XP, > Vista, 7, etc. I hope IPv6 will happen the same way. That is exactly the intention of each of these so-called "transition" = technologies. They are in fact not for the purpose of transition, they = are for the purpose of coexistence. But at the point that coexistence is = no longer an issue - when either you have a dual stack deployment and = can happily talk with either or when the vast majority of the network is = in fact capable of using IPv6 end to end and IPv4 is therefore less of = an issue - I expect they will be lost in the dust of time.= From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Wed Aug 25 12:49:01 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12CE03A6B55 for ; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 12:49:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.695 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.695 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.029, BAYES_00=-2.599, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, J_CHICKENPOX_14=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id h6DQIQJZe1Rw for ; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 12:49:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09ADE3A692C for ; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 12:49:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OoLtC-000H4I-4z for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 19:44:02 +0000 Received: from web111406.mail.gq1.yahoo.com ([67.195.15.162]) by psg.com with smtp (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OoLt6-000H3o-Az for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 19:43:59 +0000 Received: (qmail 40054 invoked by uid 60001); 25 Aug 2010 19:43:54 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s1024; t=1282765434; bh=/0BzC4M8nIWpWfX3/Os8RhcQQuxsMclG6KVX5W1P+RY=; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Date:From:Reply-To:Subject:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=LwfX8T71gWaoKsiOiqfBgH0Fm9X2HU1KpqaFTzoVF9X1xv+LUeu79HrZSTaxOqwr0PY2XEBl9Z01Lu5ZU9FG+q87w/Pbc1wzR0N0f1YX5/RhXfffnxQNKsPcdL2JJeyJprC6aQ14lC+jPHxU5ARarBUVz1IQMGgfewNgCEu55Bo= DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Date:From:Reply-To:Subject:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=0tbSvfXYo9/x/NJd/cu4PtvAhrN+lSaU0lsm2Mhjfwlg8a9l75keoRakCUd8EJcUnQxuyfYZU0YQVUpSxYemcBS39pRtTW9RIZEYop7Kcx97R0zQqUsBQLCEwnui7FHP5oB4mNV+ksy0PFbM4V42PraYoURRS/AkeNziNjXMMNI=; Message-ID: <456387.38065.qm@web111406.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: 5Mkl86IVM1ms3XVe8G_mcjTlfQTOJsSz44lZHgLlAQQ2ZLd KqDNjZXNYKcKRHbcVVHlYcQ5oTwgYVaPJRAFEKJCPsr4bhPc1A4CSXNGUJ3M ssa454Ojz1QMfkxtyNtw7tsaejFrIj2Ehho99.ygCWTX6dUrj9t6Smn4h_8u npWaYWnM83rdZhT.ErGWmt_ANcBeWVrNOVr8GVJjdnLLJsawDuG_uO90tAyP GsegSUXBtRWr2lQVRO7KanviVi.6NPR52mhlz5cMoCvZyXJdwpTpS8txIwpN tdnqYM.KQ9VOvLQJvq_42ptTAUJ1k0x1WzpewYKQd9n8OUNbMp8QPavz_5Od FQrlSmhkVTF2G Received: from [206.16.17.212] by web111406.mail.gq1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 12:43:54 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/470 YahooMailWebService/0.8.105.279950 References: Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 12:43:54 -0700 (PDT) From: Behcet Sarikaya Reply-To: Behcet Sarikaya Subject: Re: [v4tov6transition] draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC To: Cameron Byrne Cc: IPv6 v6ops , v4tov6transition@ietf.org In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: =0A=0A=0A=0A----- Original Message ----=0A> From: Cameron Byrne =0A> To: Yiu L. Lee =0A> Cc: David Meye= r ; Erik Lindqvist ; IPv6 =0A>v6ops ; Kurt@core3.amsl.com; v4tov6transition@ietf.org=0A> Sent:= Wed, August 25, 2010 11:10:13 AM=0A> Subject: Re: [v4tov6transition] draft= -arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC=0A> =0A> On Wed, Aug 25, 2010 at 9:0= 3 AM, Yiu L. Lee =0Awrote:=0A> > Hi Dave,=0A> = >=0A> > Well, I can=E2=80=99t imagine an operator can launch an IPv6-only = service with =0ANAT64=0A> > to its customers in the next 3 years even the = projection of growth is 10^8.=0A> > The roadblock is the legacy IPv4-only= hosts (TV, xbox, PS3, WinXP, etc) in=0A> > customer=E2=80=99s homes.=0A> = >=0A> =0A> T-Mobile USA will launch IPv6-only + NAT64 in the next ~12 mont= hs for=0A> a controlled set of new handsets models directed at consumers.= =0A=0AThis is good news indeed and shows some real good progress.=0AI tried= my IPhone 4 on v6only AP in Maastrict and it did not work, =0AI think that= contrary to what I hear, IPhone 4 does not seem to support IPv6.=0A=0A=0A= =0ARegards,=0A=0ABehcet=0A=0A=0A=0A From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Wed Aug 25 14:58:03 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE1773A6837 for ; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 14:58:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.528 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.528 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.690, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, J_CHICKENPOX_14=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OULTMD8cabwn for ; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 14:58:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD67E3A63C9 for ; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 14:58:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OoNvA-00064c-Fm for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 21:54:12 +0000 Received: from [64.78.22.237] (helo=EXPFE100-2.exc.icann.org) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OoNv8-00064M-B0 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 21:54:10 +0000 Received: from EXVPMBX100-1.exc.icann.org ([64.78.22.232]) by EXPFE100-2.exc.icann.org ([64.78.22.237]) with mapi; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 14:54:09 -0700 From: Leo Vegoda To: Behcet Sarikaya CC: Cameron Byrne , IPv6 v6ops , "v4tov6transition@ietf.org" Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 14:54:08 -0700 Subject: Re: [v4tov6transition] draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC Thread-Topic: [v4tov6transition] draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC Thread-Index: ActEoAtCLq1+1TDAQuOCTlwhG5K32Q== Message-ID: <9E58188E-1B32-4FE1-A200-F53CD8A71315@icann.org> References: <456387.38065.qm@web111406.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <456387.38065.qm@web111406.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: On 25 Aug 2010, at 12:43, Behcet Sarikaya wrote: [...] > This is good news indeed and shows some real good progress. > I tried my IPhone 4 on v6only AP in Maastrict and it did not work,=20 > I think that contrary to what I hear, IPhone 4 does not seem to support I= Pv6. It works in the sense that it will load web pages, etc... over IPv6. See: http://twitpic.com/2i50fj I suspect it relies on DHCP for DNS resolver configuration though and so fa= ils to work for most purposes in IPv6-only at the moment. Regards, Leo= From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Wed Aug 25 15:27:32 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC6533A67B2 for ; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 15:27:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -8.99 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-8.99 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.495, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id f-e9BnLYY8QE for ; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 15:27:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57A1F3A63C9 for ; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 15:27:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OoOQ3-0009ga-6M for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 22:26:07 +0000 Received: from [64.102.122.149] (helo=rtp-iport-2.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OoOPz-0009g5-Bi for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 22:26:03 +0000 Authentication-Results: rtp-iport-2.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.56,270,1280707200"; d="scan'208";a="151926473" Received: from rtp-core-1.cisco.com ([64.102.124.12]) by rtp-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 25 Aug 2010 22:26:02 +0000 Received: from ams3-vpn-dhcp7318.cisco.com (ams3-vpn-dhcp7318.cisco.com [10.61.92.149]) by rtp-core-1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o7PMQ0eY015597; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 22:26:01 GMT Subject: Re: [Int-area] Review of draft-narten-ipv6-3177bis-48boundary-05 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1081) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Ole Troan In-Reply-To: <28C4A15C-DE54-4DD2-A5FD-33BFF66EFE83@cisco.com> Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 00:26:00 +0200 Cc: Tony Li , IPv6 Operations , int-area@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <2380D029-A0BA-40F8-89C7-9C4C34C4962D@cisco.com> References: <28C4A15C-DE54-4DD2-A5FD-33BFF66EFE83@cisco.com> To: Fred Baker X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1081) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: > Thanks, Tony. >=20 > Let me comment on one point in your review. >=20 > On Aug 20, 2010, at 11:47 AM, Tony Li wrote: >=20 >> 5) The draft misses the opportunity to call for work in v6 = renumbering. The fact of the matter is that sooner or later, sites will = need to renumber. Even given adequate address space, there are other = compelling events (e.g., corporate acquisitions) that drive renumbering. = There's much work to do here. If we make the assumption that = renumbering WILL be easy (and make it come to pass), then it's = reasonable to argue that renumbering into a larger prefix is easy and = thus we can be more conservative in initial site addressing. >=20 > When I sat down to write what is now RFC 4192, I was really scratching = my head. Given that an IPv6 (or for that matter, an IPv4) interface can = take two or more prefixes, it seemed to me that there was an obvious = procedure for renumbering a network: >=20 > 1) start with a working network that you don't like the address plan = of > 2) design a new address plan using a different set of numbers > 3) configure the network equipment to use the new plan in addition to = the old > 4) test the new plan, fixing whatever needs to be fixed > ---> you now have two working networks running on the same = infrastructure <---- > ---> but you are only using one, the "old" one = <---- > 5) tell the hosts and their applications to use the new address plan > 6) verify that the hosts and applications in fact all work using the = new plan > ---> you now have two working networks running on the same = infrastructure <---- > ---> and you are actively using both of them = <---- > 7) stop advertising services using the old address plan > ---> you now have two working networks running on the same = infrastructure <---- > ---> but you are only using one, the "new" one = <---- > 8) do what you like with the old plan >=20 > Several of those points obviously imply waiting periods - the fact = that you removed a resource record in step 7 doesn't mean you're ready = for step 8, for example.=20 >=20 > I then went to the operational community, inside and outside Cisco, = and said "OK, I already know I'm insane. What I need to understand is = WHY I'm insane." >=20 > I got an education, and much of what I learned wound up explicitly = called out in the document. The thing that makes renumbering hard has = nothing to do with the procedures for renumbering. It has to do with = places where people type in numeric IP addresses, whether in router = configurations like interface addresses and route maps or in = applications that "Just Know" that the address of some system is = 192.0.2.1 or 2001:db8::12. Web pages that refer to other servers by = address instead of by name, SIP referrals, FTP (which tops it all by = having a different passive mode command and behavior for IPv6 than it = has for IPv4), and so on. >=20 > To be really honest, I have concluded that every time we further = idiot-proof the world, the world makes better idiots. >=20 > I'm all for improving our ability to renumber, but I'm not sure that's = something the IETF can solve technically. Vendors can help, by providing = configuration options that associate names with numbers in one common = location and then enables the administrator to use the names in = configuration files. But even those have issues. Consider this one: >=20 > You have a router configured: >=20 > ! > ipv6 unicast-routing > ipv6 general-prefix EXAMPLE 2001:0DB8:0:0::/48 > ! > interface foo 1 > ipv6 address EXAMPLE 0:0:0:0::/64 eui-64 > ipv6 enable > ! > interface foo 2 > ipv6 address EXAMPLE 0:0:0:1::/64 eui-64 > ipv6 enable > ! > interface foo 3 > ipv6 address EXAMPLE 0:0:0:2::/64 eui-64 > ipv6 enable > ! >=20 > Now, someone decides to renumber the network, and replaces the = general-prefix using >=20 > ipv6 general-prefix EXAMPLE 2001:0DB8:1:0::/48 >=20 > What happens? The network stops working for a period of time, at least = through that router; depending on the placement of the router, the = outage may prevent access to other routers that happen to be beyond it, = and certainly disrupts the operations of hosts on the networks it is = attached to. Why? Because the existing routing depended on the old = prefix, and in replacing the configuration outright it disrupted the = existing routing before the new prefix was stable in the network. >=20 > What should they have done? >=20 > They should have configured >=20 > ! > ipv6 general-prefix EXAMPLE2 2001:0DB8:1:0::/48 > ! > interface foo 1 > ipv6 address EXAMPLE2 0:0:0:0::/64 eui-64 > ! > interface foo 2 > ipv6 address EXAMPLE2 0:0:0:1::/64 eui-64 > ! > interface foo 3 > ipv6 address EXAMPLE2 0:0:0:2::/64 eui-64 > ! >=20 > waited and tested, and at some later time when the new prefix and old = prefixes provably both worked for everyone concerned, applied >=20 > no ipv6 general-prefix EXAMPLE 2001:0DB8:0:0::/48 > ! > interface foo 1 > no ipv6 address EXAMPLE 0:0:0:0::/64 eui-64 > ! > interface foo 2 > no ipv6 address EXAMPLE 0:0:0:1::/64 eui-64 > ! > interface foo 3 > no ipv6 address EXAMPLE 0:0:0:2::/64 eui-64 >=20 >=20 > In this case, the "better idiot" worked at a random router vendor of = your and my acquaintance. Said person thought that by providing the = general-prefix, s/he had made renumbering simple. No, s/he had at most = added a level of indirection to the routing configuration. as said person is one of my better acquaintances, I can with certainty = say that said person thought no such thing. the mechanism above handles indirection via a single "name" to multiple = prefixes with differing lifetimes, but only with a dynamically acquired = prefix, not with manual configuration. file a bug. but that fact doesn't matter much, as the IETF hasn't figured out how a = network with multiple prefixes should work. i.e multi-prefix = multi-homing. cheers, Ole >=20 > s/he could be forgiven for the error, though; it is essentially the = same as is recommended in RFC 2894, which has the network administrator = distribute commands to, in its words >=20 > instruct the router to ... remove the prefix > which matched the Match-Prefix and replace it with the Use-Prefixes, > or replace all global-scope prefixes with the Use-Prefixes. >=20 > with the effect of disrupting the old prefix at a time that the new = prefix is not yet fully deployed or distributed in routing, neighbor = discovery, etc. Yes, it also has the option of adding a second prefix, = which is what it should have done, but it doesn't have the option of = removing a prefix. I guess you're supposed to add new prefixes, and then = replace the old prefixes with the already-added new prefixes. Maybe. >=20 > Yes, we need work on renumbering. But I think it will require more = than a simple technical solution. From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Wed Aug 25 16:11:32 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21C8E3A68E0 for ; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 16:11:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.608 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.608 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.113, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id czQA7nmYMFiu for ; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 16:11:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87A643A6A7D for ; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 16:11:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OoP46-000ENh-5d for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 23:07:30 +0000 Received: from [209.85.212.52] (helo=mail-vw0-f52.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OoP42-000ENG-8C for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 23:07:26 +0000 Received: by vws14 with SMTP id 14so1539633vws.11 for ; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 16:07:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from :organization:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=exAYDoFumKivFQHA5UPJD+EvfhpLs7rOgYWO5lYPbFw=; b=dM2vJ7oUhQSae2ujXbyHmvGLVWxIjYdiXR7yUJG/KR90RbQ3y5llRdCgMUF+8t6nDf uT7gdU358Edn6P5aBYZRqdR1mltGTizMONVBj089YGffcWjqTE6bT2MZDTjsGRZKXTBm eWBKX/5WAI1xf+QMK9bj+CQKShNYQmy5nA24k= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:organization:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc :subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=cPW/JDQzjKJQbPcYLG39wYj1VQjGOWTLR/PC79mzE8L/ScGtNjGMOgKx3nFEt/kFHf 5384rlCK0pE1augXuck923W4tHqxAt0nNRkUsWWqd1KsNObX+COAc/e0BsVVJ6t3YcMs 4x8AyXi5oklgdyvbUPRIfEJ8C+ILQreP5Q/vs= Received: by 10.220.127.4 with SMTP id e4mr5719235vcs.95.1282777645062; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 16:07:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [130.216.38.124] (stf-brian.sfac.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.38.124]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id m31sm894749vcf.37.2010.08.25.16.07.22 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Wed, 25 Aug 2010 16:07:24 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4C75A228.20809@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 11:07:20 +1200 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Windows/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: huang cancan CC: "Yiu L. Lee" , Kurt Erik Lindqvist , IPv6 v6ops , v4tov6transition@ietf.org Subject: NAT444 v NAT64 References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: On 2010-08-26 01:41, huang cancan wrote: > well, I mean: why customer experience of IPv4-only + NAT444 could be the > same as IPv6-only + NAT64? There are application scenarios that will work through a single layer of NAT and fail through a double layer of NAT. I would have thought this would have considerable impact on customer experience. There are other negative impacts on content providers too, that were discussed in a bar BOF in Anaheim. Brian From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Wed Aug 25 19:35:32 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 794933A68C3 for ; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 19:35:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.502 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.502 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.097, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MNmPrL6nfpOp for ; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 19:35:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C2B33A6847 for ; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 19:35:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OoSEd-0008Ef-RG for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Thu, 26 Aug 2010 02:30:35 +0000 Received: from [2001:418:1::40] (helo=ran.psg.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OoSEb-0008ER-Ev for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Aug 2010 02:30:33 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=rmac.psg.com.psg.com) by ran.psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OoSEa-000EU4-OM; Thu, 26 Aug 2010 02:30:33 +0000 Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 11:30:32 +0900 Message-ID: From: Randy Bush To: Fred Baker Cc: IPv6 v6ops Subject: Re: [v4tov6transition] draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC In-Reply-To: <1267DE09-3BBB-45C7-897C-6F8620F22AB4@cisco.com> References: <1267DE09-3BBB-45C7-897C-6F8620F22AB4@cisco.com> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 (Almost Unreal) Emacs/22.3 Mule/5.0 (SAKAKI) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI 1.14.6 - "Maruoka") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: > Free.FR deployed an IPv6 service in their existing IPv4 network using > 6rd with a team of a couple of people and a month's time if I have the > story straight. first, all free.fr stories are one engineer in two weeks. second, we should not confuse this with ipv6 deployment, as your words are very careful to hint. this is one way to hack ipv6 service when you do not deploy ipv6 in your network. i do not mean to dis free.fr. really great isp (with abyssmal customer service). but we really need to differentiiate ipv6 deployment from hacks to get around non-deployment. and they are not 'transition' mechanisms, as the network is not being transitioned to ipv6. just another hack to get around non-transition. but a lot better than teredo, 6to4, ... > That involved almost no actual native IPv6; 6rd is an IPv6/IPv4 tunnel > infrastructure. But it allowed them to provide both IPv4 and IPv6 > *services* to their customers while they took time to think about what > they wanted to do natively. They can change their network under the > hood, so to speak, an their own schedule. yep. one good strategy if you do not want to deploy ipv6. > Comcast has been a proponent of ds-lite. well, alain was. i would judge comcast by what it actually has done. > And yes, CERNET's case demonstrates that stateless translation between > an IPv4-only infrastructure and an IPv6-only infrastructure in fact > works. well, with some difficulty, as there are a lot of tunnels to get to the ipv4 internet. randy From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Wed Aug 25 22:49:42 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C78033A682D for ; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 22:49:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.956 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.956 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.357, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_BACKHAIR_11=1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ugcXf9fr20aB for ; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 22:49:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A8D53A6403 for ; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 22:49:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OoVGL-0000Dm-Kw for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Thu, 26 Aug 2010 05:44:33 +0000 Received: from [2001:418:1::81] (helo=nagasaki.bogus.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OoVGI-0000DR-Sx; Thu, 26 Aug 2010 05:44:30 +0000 Received: from joelja-mac.lan (c-98-234-104-156.hsd1.ca.comcast.net [98.234.104.156]) (authenticated bits=0) by nagasaki.bogus.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id o7Q5iJTc081690 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Thu, 26 Aug 2010 05:44:20 GMT (envelope-from joelja@bogus.com) Message-ID: <4C75FF32.9010702@bogus.com> Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 22:44:18 -0700 From: Joel Jaeggli User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10.6; en-US; rv:1.9.2.8) Gecko/20100802 Lightning/1.0b2 Thunderbird/3.1.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Randy Bush CC: Fred Baker , "Yiu L. Lee" , huang cancan , Kurt Erik Lindqvist , IPv6 v6ops , v4tov6transition@ietf.org Subject: Re: [v4tov6transition] draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.2 (nagasaki.bogus.com [147.28.0.81]); Thu, 26 Aug 2010 05:44:20 +0000 (UTC) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: On 8/25/10 8:25 AM, Randy Bush wrote: >> the solution for the fixed operators is not translation 6<->4; it is >> IPv6 deployment. > > i suspect we do not disagree, but just to clarify. > > fixed operators (in the non-wireless-phone sense) need to support home, > enterprise, etc. customers who will have both ipv4 and, we hope, ipv6 > needs for a while. so we need to deploy ipv6 *along side* ipv4, i.e. > dual stack. stateless translation tools do not scale or perform well at > isp backbone scale. > > our dual stack edge customers will use our dual stack backbones in a > simple fashion, no impedance matching needed. the ipv6-only customer > will need nat64/dns64 to reach legacy ipv4-only destinations. > > the ipv4-only customer will use ______ to reach ipv6-only destinations? prayer. you're back to the typical problem, you make a query, you get back only a aaaa record, so you're dead. since the likelyhood of you changing the v4 only customer's stack is limited you're stuck with alg's, and presumably only for a limited subset of applications. > randy > From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Wed Aug 25 23:14:07 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08A713A6817 for ; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 23:14:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.504 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.504 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.095, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fzpdtupikUBd for ; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 23:14:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02B353A6403 for ; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 23:14:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OoVhQ-00035L-UA for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Thu, 26 Aug 2010 06:12:33 +0000 Received: from [2001:418:1::40] (helo=ran.psg.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OoVhO-000356-Q9; Thu, 26 Aug 2010 06:12:30 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=rmac.psg.com.psg.com) by ran.psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OoVhO-000EyJ-HN; Thu, 26 Aug 2010 06:12:30 +0000 Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 15:12:29 +0900 Message-ID: From: Randy Bush To: Joel Jaeggli Cc: IPv6 v6ops Subject: Re: [v4tov6transition] draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC In-Reply-To: <4C75FF32.9010702@bogus.com> References: <4C75FF32.9010702@bogus.com> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 (Almost Unreal) Emacs/22.3 Mule/5.0 (SAKAKI) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI 1.14.6 - "Maruoka") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: >> the ipv4-only customer will use ______ to reach ipv6-only destinations? > you're back to the typical problem, you make a query, you get back only > a aaaa record, so you're dead. well, the dns64 hack for those hiding behind a nat64 won't work here, as you can't kludge the v6 address inside a v4 address. so no stateless solution. > since the likelyhood of you changing the v4 only customer's stack is > limited you're stuck with alg's, and presumably only for a limited > subset of applications. sigh. i just don't have a happy business model that includes forcing customers to make significant change. especially not when the change consists of giving their money to someone else :) randy From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Wed Aug 25 23:49:55 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A8343A6887 for ; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 23:49:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.802 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.802 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.403, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_13=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_14=0.6, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id abGSCnDlGPV3 for ; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 23:49:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F3F83A684B for ; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 23:49:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OoWEb-0006w4-1B for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Thu, 26 Aug 2010 06:46:49 +0000 Received: from [2001:418:1::81] (helo=nagasaki.bogus.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OoWEY-0006vj-FX for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 26 Aug 2010 06:46:46 +0000 Received: from joelja-mac.lan (c-98-234-104-156.hsd1.ca.comcast.net [98.234.104.156]) (authenticated bits=0) by nagasaki.bogus.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id o7Q6kdmB085108 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Thu, 26 Aug 2010 06:46:40 GMT (envelope-from joelja@bogus.com) Message-ID: <4C760DCF.3050101@bogus.com> Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 23:46:39 -0700 From: Joel Jaeggli User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10.6; en-US; rv:1.9.2.8) Gecko/20100802 Lightning/1.0b2 Thunderbird/3.1.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Behcet Sarikaya CC: Behcet Sarikaya , Cameron Byrne , IPv6 v6ops , v4tov6transition@ietf.org Subject: Re: [v4tov6transition] draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC References: <456387.38065.qm@web111406.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <456387.38065.qm@web111406.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.2 (nagasaki.bogus.com [147.28.0.81]); Thu, 26 Aug 2010 06:46:40 +0000 (UTC) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: On 8/25/10 12:43 PM, Behcet Sarikaya wrote: > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- >> From: Cameron Byrne >> To: Yiu L. Lee >> Cc: David Meyer ; Erik Lindqvist ; IPv6 >> v6ops ; Kurt@core3.amsl.com; v4tov6transition@ietf.org >> Sent: Wed, August 25, 2010 11:10:13 AM >> Subject: Re: [v4tov6transition] draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC >> >> On Wed, Aug 25, 2010 at 9:03 AM, Yiu L. Lee > wrote: >>> Hi Dave, >>> >>> Well, I can’t imagine an operator can launch an IPv6-only service with > NAT64 >>> to its customers in the next 3 years even the projection of growth is 10^8. >>> The roadblock is the legacy IPv4-only hosts (TV, xbox, PS3, WinXP, etc) in >>> customer’s homes. >>> >> >> T-Mobile USA will launch IPv6-only + NAT64 in the next ~12 months for >> a controlled set of new handsets models directed at consumers. > > This is good news indeed and shows some real good progress. > I tried my IPhone 4 on v6only AP in Maastrict and it did not work, > I think that contrary to what I hear, IPhone 4 does not seem to support IPv6. A lot of consumer oriented devices continue to operate under the assumption that if they were unable to dhcp v4 that they should try another available network. That's not a problem from the cellular operator's vantage point, but if you happen to be planning an ipv6 only wireless lan you should take it under advisement. > > > Regards, > > Behcet > > > > > > From v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org Thu Aug 26 05:05:02 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E5FB3A698C for ; Thu, 26 Aug 2010 05:05:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char AE hex): Subject: ...ve@lists.ietf.org V|AGRA \256 Official Selle[...] X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.022 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.022 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=16.564, BAYES_99=3.5, DRUGS_ERECTILE=1, DRUGS_ERECTILE_OBFU=1.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, FUZZY_VPILL=0.687, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR=2.426, HELO_EQ_RU=0.595, HOST_EQ_RU=0.875, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_08=1.787, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_1=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_14=0.6, MANGLED_VIAGRA=2.5, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_OBFU_VIAGRA=1.666, SUBJECT_NEEDS_ENCODING=0.001, TT_OBSCURED_VIAGRA=1.652, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id awxPfHSHYN3h for ; Thu, 26 Aug 2010 05:05:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from h178-129-10-170.dyn.bashtel.ru (h178-129-10-170.dyn.bashtel.ru [178.129.10.170]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2FAF3A6838 for ; Thu, 26 Aug 2010 05:05:00 -0700 (PDT) From: v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org To: v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org V|AGRA ® Official Seller -82% MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20100826120500.B2FAF3A6838@core3.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 05:05:00 -0700 (PDT)
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From v6ops-archive@ietf.org Thu Aug 26 05:05:02 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 532D03A6A96 for ; Thu, 26 Aug 2010 05:05:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char AE hex): Subject: v6ops-archive@ietf.org V|AGRA \256 Official Selle[...] X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -30.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-30.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-8.812, BAYES_95=3, DRUGS_ERECTILE=1, DRUGS_ERECTILE_OBFU=1.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, FUZZY_VPILL=0.687, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR=2.426, HELO_EQ_RU=0.595, HOST_EQ_RU=0.875, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_08=1.787, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_1=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_14=0.6, MANGLED_VIAGRA=2.5, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_OBFU_VIAGRA=1.666, SUBJECT_NEEDS_ENCODING=0.001, TT_OBSCURED_VIAGRA=1.652, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dfLfGGxEgTCp for ; Thu, 26 Aug 2010 05:05:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from h178-129-10-170.dyn.bashtel.ru (h178-129-10-170.dyn.bashtel.ru [178.129.10.170]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B97803A6982 for ; Thu, 26 Aug 2010 05:05:00 -0700 (PDT) From: v6ops-archive@ietf.org To: v6ops-archive@ietf.org Subject: v6ops-archive@ietf.org V|AGRA ® Official Seller -82% MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20100826120500.B97803A6982@core3.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 05:05:00 -0700 (PDT)
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From sodulig8422@comcast.net Thu Aug 26 07:41:04 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E43253A697D for ; Thu, 26 Aug 2010 07:41:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.407 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.407 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_SBL=20, URIBL_SC_SURBL=10, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qC9QiCaoFCr6 for ; Thu, 26 Aug 2010 07:41:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from comcast.net (c-69-142-226-159.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [69.142.226.159]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 009933A67ED for ; Thu, 26 Aug 2010 07:41:03 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 10:41:35 -0400 To: v6ops-archive@ietf.org From: Reply-To: Subject: Spray her with your new tool MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-Id: <20100826144104.009933A67ED@core3.amsl.com> Attain your true length for your organ in just 2 months http://www.raypoem.ru/ From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Aug 26 08:50:51 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BA9C3A6852 for ; Thu, 26 Aug 2010 08:50:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.813 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.813 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.918, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, J_CHICKENPOX_13=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id W8+LeLmchOhk for ; Thu, 26 Aug 2010 08:50:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF81B3A6843 for ; Thu, 26 Aug 2010 08:50:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OoedJ-000IRT-Rr for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Thu, 26 Aug 2010 15:44:53 +0000 Received: from [130.76.32.69] (helo=blv-smtpout-01.boeing.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OoedH-000IRC-0e; Thu, 26 Aug 2010 15:44:51 +0000 Received: from blv-av-01.boeing.com (blv-av-01.boeing.com [130.247.48.231]) by blv-smtpout-01.ns.cs.boeing.com (8.14.4/8.14.4/8.14.4/SMTPOUT) with ESMTP id o7QFijrA028851 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 26 Aug 2010 08:44:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from blv-av-01.boeing.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by blv-av-01.boeing.com (8.14.4/8.14.4/DOWNSTREAM_RELAY) with ESMTP id o7QFij2s014725; Thu, 26 Aug 2010 08:44:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from XCH-NWHT-04.nw.nos.boeing.com (xch-nwht-04.nw.nos.boeing.com [130.247.64.250]) by blv-av-01.boeing.com (8.14.4/8.14.4/UPSTREAM_RELAY) with ESMTP id o7QFijwU014707 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=OK); Thu, 26 Aug 2010 08:44:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from XCH-NW-01V.nw.nos.boeing.com ([130.247.64.97]) by XCH-NWHT-04.nw.nos.boeing.com ([130.247.64.250]) with mapi; Thu, 26 Aug 2010 08:44:45 -0700 From: "Templin, Fred L" To: Randy Bush , Fred Baker CC: IPv6 v6ops Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 08:44:44 -0700 Subject: RE: [v4tov6transition] draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC Thread-Topic: [v4tov6transition] draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC Thread-Index: ActEyMqaM/EngjduTfiYu5xP3YarmAAa+eWw Message-ID: References: <1267DE09-3BBB-45C7-897C-6F8620F22AB4@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] On Behal= f Of Randy Bush > Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2010 7:31 PM > To: Fred Baker > Cc: IPv6 v6ops > Subject: Re: [v4tov6transition] draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WG= LC >=20 > > Free.FR deployed an IPv6 service in their existing IPv4 network using > > 6rd with a team of a couple of people and a month's time if I have the > > story straight. >=20 > first, all free.fr stories are one engineer in two weeks. >=20 > second, we should not confuse this with ipv6 deployment, as your words > are very careful to hint. this is one way to hack ipv6 service when you > do not deploy ipv6 in your network. >=20 > i do not mean to dis free.fr. really great isp (with abyssmal customer > service). but we really need to differentiiate ipv6 deployment from > hacks to get around non-deployment. >=20 > and they are not 'transition' mechanisms, as the network is not being > transitioned to ipv6. just another hack to get around non-transition. > but a lot better than teredo, 6to4, ... Coexistence does not need to be through dint of hackery. Coexistence need not even stand in the way of transition. Coexistence faces up to the fact that there are billions of pieces of legacy network equipment out in the wild that will take years/decades/centuries to change out. It takes ownership of the legacy lemons and makes lemonade. Fred fred.l.templin@boeing.com=20 > > That involved almost no actual native IPv6; 6rd is an IPv6/IPv4 tunnel > > infrastructure. But it allowed them to provide both IPv4 and IPv6 > > *services* to their customers while they took time to think about what > > they wanted to do natively. They can change their network under the > > hood, so to speak, an their own schedule. >=20 > yep. one good strategy if you do not want to deploy ipv6. >=20 > > Comcast has been a proponent of ds-lite. >=20 > well, alain was. i would judge comcast by what it actually has done. >=20 > > And yes, CERNET's case demonstrates that stateless translation between > > an IPv4-only infrastructure and an IPv6-only infrastructure in fact > > works. >=20 > well, with some difficulty, as there are a lot of tunnels to get to the > ipv4 internet. >=20 > randy From iaivaqa6089@comcast.net Thu Aug 26 18:28:44 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 033C43A6B2F for ; Thu, 26 Aug 2010 18:28:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -68.771 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-68.771 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_UNI=0.591, URIBL_BLACK=20, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id N2X3woEaIoYc for ; Thu, 26 Aug 2010 18:28:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from comcast.net (c-24-19-178-243.hsd1.wa.comcast.net [24.19.178.243]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BDB33A6B2A for ; Thu, 26 Aug 2010 18:28:42 -0700 (PDT) From: Top boosters of arousal To: v6ops-archive@ietf.org Subject: Mr. v6ops-archive, Receive your 80% discount.. FC of Miller Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 18:29:16 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-Id: <20100827012842.4BDB33A6B2A@core3.amsl.com> Faculty exposed the of
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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Aug 27 01:16:42 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2584D3A68FC for ; Fri, 27 Aug 2010 01:16:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.396 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.396 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.101, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, J_CHICKENPOX_13=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_46=0.6, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PHnDlC2u0kgy for ; Fri, 27 Aug 2010 01:16:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F35DD3A6A24 for ; Fri, 27 Aug 2010 01:16:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Oou13-0007Sj-5g for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Fri, 27 Aug 2010 08:10:25 +0000 Received: from [209.85.213.66] (helo=mail-yw0-f66.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Oou0y-0007SG-N8 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Aug 2010 08:10:21 +0000 Received: by ywg4 with SMTP id 4so472018ywg.5 for ; Fri, 27 Aug 2010 01:10:20 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:sender:message-id:date:from :user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to :x-enigmail-version:openpgp:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Qb95i868VAHlyDcA2LW0//tc7asogujPPdwyBY8IrD8=; b=iFGXEmJbuU4O2ox7qG+mjYvcoZ8XBXfGkqN6MEfhmwdqyBjDwXJO0EqCR9ucorv5MF 9OvCvYf9BBYMV1a6KGov0UyFjFFdwfEJf5BqM1tRv0Klk7t3OHNcP2eRAYEgE3GdDEaz RkC/sKdlY72LF1M6bDmHTyGDzg3s+7eBEuE0Y= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=sender:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject :references:in-reply-to:x-enigmail-version:openpgp:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=xm1/85alMQbsbLuraW0F/fu5ixUWFbrDbQdXsRBs+eC4pvnRx9CejzkN6x/DXvgl+n G0eC1kOsC/xAcmJM1OgXUYIAqf7K+Q2TZtOHjfiKJqZNrOTgjSiHle7Nkyv9qPhWgM2M niywwYYodm1CjDraSFC2qboGHCRBSLpiI4eKU= Received: by 10.100.215.13 with SMTP id n13mr430045ang.229.1282896620004; Fri, 27 Aug 2010 01:10:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.2.11] ([190.245.181.90]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id n7sm5245841ane.1.2010.08.27.01.10.16 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Fri, 27 Aug 2010 01:10:18 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4C77700B.5050807@gont.com.ar> Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 04:58:03 -0300 From: Fernando Gont User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.24 (Windows/20100228) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Gabi Nakibly CC: "v6ops@ops.ietf.org" , fltemplin@acm.org Subject: Re: Comments on draft-nakibly-v6ops-tunnel-loops References: <4C71E8DC.7020005@gont.com.ar> <586778.68736.qm@web45501.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <586778.68736.qm@web45501.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.96.0 OpenPGP: id=D076FFF1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: Hi, Gabi, Thanks so much for your response. Please find my comments inline.... >> a) "Attack #1: 6to4 Relay to ISATAP Router" discussed in [USENIX09] >> implies that an ISATAP router will receive an encapsulated IPv6 packet >> on its *external* interface, destined to an IPv6 address that does not >> belong to that site, but nevertheless forward it on the native IPv6 network. >> >> The rule here should be simple: tunneled packets should only be received >> on the internal interface. Furthermore, ingress filtering should prevent >> processing a packet with an *internal* src addr that was received on an >> *external* interface. >> > > We agree with your observation. However, please note that the ISATAP router will > not always receive the attack packet (packet #0) on its external interface. > The packet may enter the inside network through a border router which is not the > ISATAP router. Let's take for example a network with two border routers. The > first border router is an ISATAP router that borders with a native IPv6 network > and a second border router that borders with an IPv4 network. The attack packet > may enter the network through the second router and the ISATAP router may > receive it on its *internal* interface. The rule you propose can not mitigate > the attack in this case. In this scenario, the second router should be doing ingress filtering. I'd argue that having such a scenario and not doing ingress filtering is opening the door to lots of trouble -- not just this only issue. Nevertheless, it should be clarified in the I-D this possible scenario. Because for other scenarios, the check I've mentioned would solve this issue. (Note, nevertheless, that ingress filtering on the second router, plus the check I've mentioned fix this potential problem, with no magic) > >> b) "Attack #2: ISATAP Router to 6to4 Relay" >> >> This one implies that the ISATAP router will send a tunneled packet on >> its *external* interface. Being ISATAP an *Intra-site* tunneling >> protocol, this clearly shouldn't happen (but Fred Templin is certainly >> in a much better position than me to correct me if I'm wrong). >> >> Both in this case and in Attack #1 above, there should never be a case >> in which a packet is received on the external physical interface, and >> forwarded back on that external physical interface. > > Similarly to the case we described above, the packet will indeed be forwarded by > the ISATAP router over its internal interface, but the packet will find its way > out through the second border router and loop will continue. This scenario should be clearly explained, then. -- Even then, being a border router the ISATAP router probably knows the IP address block that's used within the site. Therefore, it should probably filter those packets that would need to be tunneled off-site. But, again: it should be made clear that you're thinking about a two-border-router scenario. >> c) Attack #3: ISATAP Router to ISATAP Router >> >> Same as above. >> > > Same as above. Same as above. :-) >> d) "Attack #4: Teredo Client to NAT" >> >> This not only implies that a Teredo client will accept packets on its >> Teredo interface, but also that it will forward them. Both behaviors >> seem to be ill-advised (despite the fact that Windows allegedly >> implements them). >> >> The countermeasure here is straightforward: drop packets received on the >> Teredo interface that are not received to your nodes. Never forward >> packets on the Teredo interface that have not originated in your own node. >> >> e) "E. Attack #5: Teredo Server" >> >> This one is probably trickier. Although one should probably argue that >> packets received on a physical interface for a unicast address, with a >> src addr that belongs to the host should be dropped. (such packets would >> typically be forwarded internally). > > > Regarding the last two Teredo attacks, please note that the draft does NOT > address them. The nature of these two attacks are different from the previous > ones, hence to make the draft more coherent and simple it only addresses > protocol-41 tunnel-based loops. > As to the countermeasure you proposed for attack #4, I think that it may not be > suitable for Teredo clients that do need to forward packets. Are there any of these available? For instance, does RFC 4380 support this? - I don't think that's the case (of the top of my head, though) > For example, a > router that serves as a gateway to an internal IPv6 network while the router's > external IPv6 connectivity is achieved via Teredo. This setup would be really broken. If there's an IPv6 island, then the border router of that island should be doing 6to4, or a configured tunnel or the like. > However, we do agree that a > simple countermeasure similar to the one you proposed can be devised. > But, again, this is not related to the draft. If the list feels that these > attacks should be addressed, suitable updates to Teredo can be proposed. If yes, > I welcome any comments. IMHO, if you mention the attack, you should probably point a possible way to fix this. -- although I understand that in this particular case this would be more in the scope of 6man than v6ops. >> **** 5) Section 2, first para: >> " In this section we shall denote an IPv6 address of a node reached via >> a given tunnel by the prefix of the tunnel and the IPv4 address of >> the node, i.e., Addr(Prefix, IPv4)." >> >> This seems misleading. the IPv4 address (IPv4) corresponds to the tunnel >> end-point, and not to the node that is reachable by the given tunnel. > > Good point, but to be more precise the IPv4 address corresponds to an > (IPv4) interface associated with the tunnel endpoint. The tunnel endpoint > may associate multiple such interfaces with the tunnel endpoint, however, > so the proposed resolution is to change "the IPv4 address" to "an IPv4 address". > We will change this to make it clearer. Looking at the text again, I realize that I looked confusion to me in this aspect: "node reached via a given tunnel" sounded to me more like e.g. a node in a network that was accessed through a tunnel (this "node" was different from the node/router that was the tunnel endpoint) -- hence the confusion. Again, a network diagram would be helpful here. > >> **** 7) Section 2 (nit): >> " The source address of the packet is a T1 >> address with Prf1 as the prefix and IP2 as the embedded IPv4 address, >> i.e., Addr(Prf1, IP2)." >> >> While I do understand what you're talking about, this is the first time >> you mention that of "embedded address". Therefore, that of "embedded >> addresses" should be clarified/explained. >> > > OK. By way of clarification, the third sentence of Section 1 will be changed to > the following: > > "Automatic tunnels form a category of tunnels in which a > packet's egress node's IPv4 address is embedded within the > destination IPv6 address of the packet." Great. >> **** 9) Section 3.1 (meta-comment): >> >> See the "counter-measures" I suggested when discussing each of the >> attack vectors above. They seem to be simpler than the ones you're >> proposing here.... > > Yes, but only if it can be operationally assured that the case we described > above is avoided. > > We will add these countermeasures in the draft with this reservation. Ok. >> **** 11) Section 3.2.1 >> >> This section talks about the "Neighbor Cache Check". Does such a thing >> necessarily exist for, e.g., ISATAP? >> >> I guess that in the case of Teredo, you're really talking about the >> "List of recent Teredo peers"? > > As mentioned above, Teredo is not addressed by the draft. What about ISATAP? Thanks! Kind regards, -- Fernando Gont e-mail: fernando@gont.com.ar || fgont@acm.org PGP Fingerprint: 7809 84F5 322E 45C7 F1C9 3945 96EE A9EF D076 FFF1 From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Aug 27 03:33:10 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D63843A6B73 for ; Fri, 27 Aug 2010 03:33:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -98.152 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-98.152 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.272, BAYES_40=-0.185, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_13=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_75=0.6, RDNS_NONE=0.1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aHVFH7BMwDZW for ; Fri, 27 Aug 2010 03:33:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 335CF3A69F0 for ; Fri, 27 Aug 2010 03:33:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OowBY-000Ltn-MK for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Fri, 27 Aug 2010 10:29:24 +0000 Received: from [119.145.14.67] (helo=szxga04-in.huawei.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OowBT-000Lt2-96 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Aug 2010 10:29:20 +0000 Received: from huawei.com (szxga04-in [172.24.2.12]) by szxga04-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0L7T007MX3SR84@szxga04-in.huawei.com> for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Aug 2010 18:29:15 +0800 (CST) Received: from huawei.com ([172.24.2.119]) by szxga04-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0L7T006403SRDI@szxga04-in.huawei.com> for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Aug 2010 18:29:15 +0800 (CST) Received: from z00147053k ([10.70.39.122]) by szxml04-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTPA id <0L7T00D6X3SPVO@szxml04-in.huawei.com> for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Aug 2010 18:29:15 +0800 (CST) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 18:29:13 +0800 From: Tina TSOU Subject: Re: [v4tov6transition] Some opinions about establish a new WG To: joanthan Peng , v4tov6transition@ietf.org, IPv6 v6ops Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5931 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5931 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_+DI3Fhza8keSi2KCEZriLg)" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal References: Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_+DI3Fhza8keSi2KCEZriLg) Content-type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Hi, Creation of a working group is subject to the conditions of RFC 2418 = section 2.1 and is the responsibility of the IESG. The participants are responsible for satisfying the conditions of = 2.1. 2.1. Criteria for formation When determining whether it is appropriate to create a working group, the Area Director(s) and the IESG will consider several issues: - Are the issues that the working group plans to address clear and relevant to the Internet community? - Are the goals specific and reasonably achievable, and achievable within a reasonable time frame? - What are the risks and urgency of the work, to determine the level of effort required? - Do the working group's activities overlap with those of another working group? If so, it may still be appropriate to create the working group, but this question must be considered carefully by the Area Directors as subdividing efforts often dilutes the available technical expertise. - Is there sufficient interest within the IETF in the working group's topic with enough people willing to expend the effort to produce the desired result (e.g., a protocol specification)? Working groups require considerable effort, including management of the working group process, editing of working group documents, and contributing to the document text. IETF experience suggests that these roles typically cannot all be handled by one person; a minimum of four or five active participants in the management positions are typically required in addition to a minimum of one or two dozen people that will attend the working group meetings and contribute on the mailing list. NOTE: The interest must be broad enough that a working group would not be seen as merely the activity of a single vendor. - Is there enough expertise within the IETF in the working group's topic, and are those people interested in contributing in the working group? - Does a base of interested consumers (end-users) appear to exist for the planned work? Consumer interest can be measured by participation of end-users within the IETF process, as well as by less direct means. - Does the IETF have a reasonable role to play in the determination of the technology? There are many Internet-related technologies that may be interesting to IETF members but in some cases the IETF may not be in a position to effect the course of the technology in the "real world". This can happen, for example, if the technology is being developed by another standards body or an industry consortium. - Are all known intellectual property rights relevant to the proposed working group's efforts issues understood? - Is the proposed work plan an open IETF effort or is it an attempt to "bless" non-IETF technology where the effect of input from IETF participants may be limited? - Is there a good understanding of any existing work that is relevant to the topics that the proposed working group is to pursue? This includes work within the IETF and elsewhere. - Do the working group's goals overlap with known work in another standards body, and if so is adequate liaison in place? Considering the above criteria, the Area Director(s), using his or her best judgment, will decide whether to pursue the formation of the group through the chartering process. B. R. Tina http://tinatsou.weebly.com/index.html ----- Original Message -----=20 From: joanthan Peng=20 To: v4tov6transition@ietf.org ; IPv6 v6ops=20 Sent: Friday, August 27, 2010 4:34 PM Subject: Re: [v4tov6transition] Some opinions about establish a new WG Hi all, I totally agree with Cancan opinion. In ISP's point of view, there are = so many problems we need to handle when transitioning v4 to v6, and some = of these problems may be not "very" technical, like how to do IPv6 = address planning and what elements should be considered, or in the case = of China Telecom's network, which technics should be selected to deploy = to CT's network and what elements should be considered, etc.=20 I think the answers for these problems are very valuable for other = ISPs, and worth our discussion. On Fri, Aug 27, 2010 at 12:46 PM, huang cancan = wrote: hi, folks: As a person who have worked in telecom operator for many years, = I do appreciate the thousands of rfcs the IETF provide us and they do = help us a lot when we deploy technologies in our network. However, I am = here to argue that is very necessary to establish a new WG which is = really focus on the operator's need and solve our problems.=20 At first, I want to make it clear that what is the operator = really need when they starting v4 to v6 transition. Why I emphasize the = topic of v6 transition is because this item is quite different from any = other projects. It is just like to establish a new Internet world!!! It = is definitely a huge systematic work other than how to deploy DS-lite in = the network. When we start this project, we first have to show our boss = the migration strategies and paths, tell him what will happen at what = time and what we can do to solve that problems step by step. When we = start to do a thing we need a road map, isn't it? So, the real = requirement of a operator to start his tour on IPv6 transition is to = work out the strategies. And this is what 6ops cannot provide us because = they say it is our own business problem. However, hey, the business = problem is the foremost problem, isn't it? Without solve this problem, = we even cannot start our tour~~~ The evidence is as below: = -------------------------------------------------------------------------= -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----------------------------------------------- How to decide the = scale of the IPv6 address space we need? For example, China telecom will = have 100+ millions subscribers in the next 3 years, and M2M service will = come soon, so we should apply for /24 or shorter? Since IPv6 address space is large, you can start with a = longer prefix and grow. If the APNIC=92s policy allows you to get a /24, = you can ask for it. What kind of address allocation schemes should be deployed in = enterprise networks? Provider aggregatable address, provider independent = address or local address? If PA address, how to avoid renumbering when = the enterprise network change site or provider? If PI address, how to = reduce routing table? If local address, how to make sure all of the = computers can access internet, NAT66 is a good choice or not? I think this is more like a business decision than technology = decision. An ISP can definitely offer service to give enterprises an IP = prefix from its own aggregate. However, some enterprise won=92t like it = because of the renumber problem you mentioned by switching provider.=20 = -------------------------------------------------------------------------= -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- Well, it is not the answer we need. What we need is what = length of prefix we should apply, which is appropriate for us. You = cannot suggest every operator that them can start a longer prefix...... = What we need is: is there any model or formula to calculate the prefix = length that we need or address architecture planning with the = considerations of the subscriber scale and increase rate? And how can = operators to utilize the address bits before /56 and after /56 to = distinguish different type of service or different metropolitan area = network in order to optimize the routing or management. You may said it is our own business problem,depend which one we = like...... I do believe this answer can not solve the operator's = problem. If 6ops continues gave us that answer, I don't believe the = final guideline 6ops provide us will meet our requirements. If the so called business problem,which is the most important = factor to make a strategy, is not concerned by 6ops, can we gather some = people working in the operator who is interest about that to discuss our = business problem in another WG, in which business problem will not be = ignored? Can-can Huang _______________________________________________ v4tov6transition mailing list v4tov6transition@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v4tov6transition -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- _______________________________________________ v4tov6transition mailing list v4tov6transition@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v4tov6transition --Boundary_(ID_+DI3Fhza8keSi2KCEZriLg) Content-type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,
Creation of a working group is subject to the = conditions of=20 RFC 2418 section 2.1 and is the responsibility of the
IESG. The = participants=20 are responsible for satisfying the conditions of 2.1.
2.1. Criteria for=20 formation

   When = determining whether it is appropriate to create a working = group,
  =20 the Area Director(s) and the IESG will consider several=20 issues:

    - Are the issues that the working = group plans=20 to address clear and
      relevant to the = Internet=20 community?

    - Are the goals specific and = reasonably=20 achievable, and achievable
      within a = reasonable=20 time frame?
 
    - What are the risks and urgency = of the=20 work, to determine the level
      of effort = required?

    - Do the working group's activities = overlap=20 with those of another
      working = group?  If=20 so, it may still be appropriate to create = the
     =20 working group, but this question must be considered carefully=20 by
      the Area Directors as subdividing = efforts=20 often dilutes the
      available technical=20 expertise.

    - Is there sufficient interest = within the=20 IETF in the working
      group's topic with = enough=20 people willing to expend the effort to
      = produce=20 the desired result (e.g., a protocol=20 specification)?
      Working groups require = considerable effort, including = management
      of=20 the working group process, editing of working group=20 documents,
      and contributing to the = document=20 text.  IETF experience suggests
      = that=20 these roles typically cannot all be handled by one person;=20 a
      minimum of four or five active = participants=20 in the management
      positions are = typically=20 required in addition to a minimum of = one
      or=20 two dozen people that will attend the working group=20 meetings
      and contribute on the mailing = list.  NOTE: The interest must be
      = broad=20 enough that a working group would not be seen as merely=20 the
      activity of a single=20 vendor.

    - Is there enough expertise within the = IETF in=20 the working group's
      topic, and are = those=20 people interested in contributing in = the
     =20 working group?

    - Does a base of interested = consumers=20 (end-users) appear to exist
      for the = planned=20 work?  Consumer interest can be measured=20 by
      participation of end-users within = the IETF=20 process, as well as by
      less direct=20 means.

    - Does the IETF have a reasonable role = to play=20 in the determination
      of the = technology? =20 There are many Internet-related = technologies
     =20 that may be interesting to IETF members but in some cases the=20 IETF
      may not be in a position to = effect the=20 course of the technology in
      the "real=20 world".  This can happen, for example, if the=20 technology
      is being developed by = another=20 standards body or an industry
     =20 consortium.

    - Are all known intellectual = property=20 rights relevant to the
      proposed = working=20 group's efforts issues understood?

    - Is the = proposed=20 work plan an open IETF effort or is it an=20 attempt
      to "bless" non-IETF technology = where=20 the effect of input from IETF
      = participants may=20 be limited?

    - Is there a good = understanding of any=20 existing work that is
      relevant to the = topics=20 that the proposed working group is to
     =20 pursue?  This includes work within the IETF and=20 elsewhere.

    - Do the working group's goals = overlap with=20 known work in another
      standards body, = and if=20 so is adequate liaison in place?

   Considering the = above=20 criteria, the Area Director(s), using his or
   her best = judgment,=20 will decide whether to pursue the formation of
   the group = through=20 the chartering process.
 
B. R.
Tina
http://tinatsou.weebly.com= /index.html
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 joanthan=20 Peng
To: v4tov6transition@ietf.org = ; IPv6 = v6ops=20
Sent: Friday, August 27, 2010 = 4:34=20 PM
Subject: Re: [v4tov6transition] = Some=20 opinions about establish a new WG

Hi all,
I totally agree with Cancan opinion. In ISP's point of view, = there are so=20 many problems we need to handle when transitioning v4 to v6, and some = of these=20 problems may be not "very" technical, like how to do IPv6 address = planning and=20 what elements should be considered, or in the case of China Telecom's = network,=20 which technics should be selected to deploy to CT's network = and what=20 elements should be considered, etc. 

I think the answers for these problems are very valuable for = other ISPs,=20 and worth our discussion.

On Fri, Aug 27, 2010 at 12:46 PM, huang = cancan <cancanhuang110@gmail.com> wrote:
hi, folks:
    As a person who have worked in telecom = operator for=20 many years, I do appreciate the thousands of rfcs the IETF provide = us and=20 they do help us a lot when we deploy  technologies in our = network.=20 However, I am here to argue that is very necessary to establish a = new WG=20 which is really focus on the operator's need and solve our problems. =
 
    At first, I want to make it=20 clear that what is the operator really need when they = starting v4=20 to v6 transition. Why I emphasize the topic of v6 transition is = because=20 this item is quite different from any other projects. It is = just like=20 to establish a new Internet world!!!  It is definitely a = huge=20 systematic work other than how to deploy DS-lite in the network. = When we=20 start this project, we  first have to show our boss = the=20 migration strategies and paths, tell him what will happen at what = time and=20 what we can do to solve that problems step by step. When we start to = do a=20 thing we need a road map, isn't it?  So, the real = requirement of a=20 operator to start his tour on IPv6 transition is to work out the = strategies.=20 And this is what 6ops cannot provide us because they say it = is our=20 own business problem. However, hey, the business problem is the = foremost problem, isn't it? Without solve this problem, we even = cannot start=20 our tour~~~   The evidence is as below:
=
--------------------------------------------------------------------= -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----------------------------------------------------     How to decide the scale of the IPv6 = address space we=20 need? For example, China telecom will have 100+ millions subscribers = in the=20 next 3 years, and M2M service will come soon, so we should apply for = /24 or=20 shorter?
        Since IPv6 address space is = large,=20 you can start with a longer prefix and grow. If the APNIC=92s policy = allows=20 you to get a /24, you can ask for it.
 
     What kind of = address=20 allocation schemes should be deployed in enterprise networks? = Provider=20 aggregatable address, provider independent address or local address? = If PA=20 address, how to avoid renumbering when the enterprise network change = site or=20 provider? If PI address, how to reduce routing table? If local = address, how=20 to make sure all of the computers can access internet, NAT66 is a = good=20 choice or not?
     I think this is = more like=20 a business decision than technology decision. An ISP can definitely = offer=20 service to give enterprises an IP prefix from its own aggregate. = However,=20 some enterprise won=92t like it because of the renumber problem you = mentioned=20 by switching provider.
 
  ---------------------------------------------------------= -------------------------------------------------------------------------= -----------------------
      Well, it is not = the answer=20 we need. What we need is what length of prefix we should apply, = which is=20 appropriate for us.  You cannot suggest every operator that = them can=20 start a longer prefix...... What we need is: is there any model = or=20 formula to calculate the prefix length that we need or address = architecture=20 planning with the considerations of the subscriber scale and = increase rate?=20 And how can operators to utilize the address bits before /56 and = after /56=20 to distinguish different type of service or different metropolitan = area=20 network in order to optimize the routing or management.
You may = said it=20 is our own business problem,depend which one we like...... I do = believe this=20 answer can not solve the operator's problem. If 6ops continues = gave us=20 that answer, I don't believe the final guideline 6ops provide us = will meet=20 our requirements.
      If the so = called=20 business problem,which is the most important factor = to make a=20 strategy, is not concerned by 6ops, can we gather some people = working=20 in the operator who is interest about that to discuss our business = problem=20 in another WG, in which business problem will not be=20 ignored?
 
Can-can Huang
 

____________________= ___________________________
v4tov6transition=20 mailing list
v4tov6transition@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v4tov6transition


=

_______________________________________________
v4tov6transitio= n=20 mailing=20 = list
v4tov6transition@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinf= o/v4tov6transition
--Boundary_(ID_+DI3Fhza8keSi2KCEZriLg)-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Aug 27 07:47:50 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D276A3A6984 for ; Fri, 27 Aug 2010 07:47:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -108.744 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-108.744 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.849, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, J_CHICKENPOX_13=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, RDNS_NONE=0.1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id x1CSv62k1Isw for ; Fri, 27 Aug 2010 07:47:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CBDCF3A698D for ; Fri, 27 Aug 2010 07:47:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Op08i-000Mgh-Su for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Fri, 27 Aug 2010 14:42:44 +0000 Received: from [171.68.10.87] (helo=sj-iport-5.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Op08f-000MgI-NK for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Aug 2010 14:42:42 +0000 Authentication-Results: sj-iport-5.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AvsEANNrd0yrR7Ht/2dsb2JhbACgWXGfb5t/gm2CSgSEO4VO X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.56,278,1280707200"; d="scan'208";a="246301176" Received: from sj-core-1.cisco.com ([171.71.177.237]) by sj-iport-5.cisco.com with ESMTP; 27 Aug 2010 14:42:40 +0000 Received: from stealth-10-32-244-222.cisco.com (stealth-10-32-244-222.cisco.com [10.32.244.222]) by sj-core-1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o7REgXJm028441; Fri, 27 Aug 2010 14:42:35 GMT Received: from [127.0.0.1] by stealth-10-32-244-222.cisco.com (PGP Universal service); Fri, 27 Aug 2010 07:42:40 -0700 X-PGP-Universal: processed; by stealth-10-32-244-222.cisco.com on Fri, 27 Aug 2010 07:42:40 -0700 Subject: Re: [v4tov6transition] Some opinions about establish a new WG Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1081) From: Fred Baker In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 07:42:27 -0700 Cc: Tina TSOU , IPv6 v6ops , v4tov6transition@ietf.org, Ron Bonica Message-Id: References: To: huang cancan X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1081) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: Copying my AD. He's on the list, but I know I monitor more closely = discussions I am copied on, and I suspect he does as well. On Aug 27, 2010, at 6:51 AM, huang cancan wrote: > - Do the working group's activities overlap with those of another > working group? If so, it may still be appropriate to create the > working group, but this question must be considered carefully by > the Area Directors as subdividing efforts often dilutes the > available technical expertise. > //This question was also discussed in the side group. I only copy them = here. >=20 > 1) V6ops has not implemented item 4 in its charter and that it is = better to split the work into two WGs, to spread the workload. >=20 > " 4. Publish Informational or BCP RFCs that identify and analyze = solutions for deploying IPv6 within common network environments, such as = ISP Networks, Enterprise Networks, Unmanaged Networks (Home/Small = Office), and Cellular Networks. " You no doubt went to http://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/v6ops/charter/ to = find the charter. May I request that you select "documents" on that page = or (equivalent) go to http://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/v6ops/ and survey = the RFCs output by the working group? It has gone to some lengths to do = this. > 2)I see the following text in v6ops charter: >=20 >> The main focus of the v6ops WG is to look at the immediate deployment = issues; more advanced stages of deployment and transition are a lower = priority. >=20 > I want to work on "more advanced stages of transition" that is out of = scope for v6ops. Some operators would like to focus on operational = issues related to the final phases of transition of v4 networks to v6, = i.e. the protection of v4 applications that need to continue to be = operational for all users while the networks are gradually transitioned = from v4 to v6. Let me put this in context. When Kurtis and I took over the working group in 2004, there were quite = a number of people that really wanted to talk about their favorite cool = tool for helping people make the transition. There was discussion at the = time of a separate working group for the purpose, and in any event v6ops = was instructed to not build protocols and with respect to transition = tool, to only generate requirements. That work eventually went to behave = and softwire. You will hear me tell people with some regularity to take = a draft to a different working group due to charter issues, and this = will be the usual reason. The continuation of IPv4 service during transition, what I call the = "coexistence phase", is at this point very near term transition issue, = and is the subject in part of=20 http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-v6ops-incremental-cgn http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-v6ops-incremental-cgn "An Incremental Carrier-Grade NAT (CGN) for IPv6 Transition", Sheng Jiang, Dayong Guo, Brian Carpenter, 18-Jun-10, which will go into working group last call on 12 September. I would = encourage the operators to read and comment on it. Frankly, the final = phases of transition will not be about "keeping IPv4 alive" as much as = "how best to turn it off". In any event, it has been a while since we updated the charter; if the = charter itself is at issue, we should discuss that. You are correct that = the question is no longer, if it ever actually was actually, "how to = deploy IPv6". The current phase is "coexistence" more than "deployment", = and perhaps the charter needs to say that.= From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Aug 27 08:17:09 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50D063A682D for ; Fri, 27 Aug 2010 08:17:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.67 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.67 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.775, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, J_CHICKENPOX_13=0.6, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4jzPSk156QAU for ; Fri, 27 Aug 2010 08:17:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 719B73A672E for ; Fri, 27 Aug 2010 08:17:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Op0eb-0000CE-Fy for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Fri, 27 Aug 2010 15:15:41 +0000 Received: from [128.18.30.17] (helo=mail1.sri.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Op0eZ-0000Bv-Ck for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Aug 2010 15:15:39 +0000 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-type: text/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII; format=flowed Received: from [192.168.1.144] ([unknown] [69.248.172.73]) by mail.sri.com (Sun Java(tm) System Messaging Server 7u2-7.05 32bit (built Jul 30 2009)) with ESMTPSA id <0L7T006KGH20BAH1@mail.sri.com> for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Aug 2010 08:15:37 -0700 (PDT) Message-id: <4C77D69C.1080601@sri.com> Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 11:15:40 -0400 From: Ed Jankiewicz User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.9.2.8) Gecko/20100802 Thunderbird/3.1.2 To: Fred Baker Cc: huang cancan , IPv6 v6ops , Ron Bonica , v4tov6transition@ietf.org Subject: Re: [v4tov6transition] Some opinions about establish a new WG References: In-reply-to: Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: I believe this mailing list is surfacing some really good information and has the potential to fill in a lot of blanks for network operators. Can-can has emphatically described some of the problems an operator faces and made a good case for the need for guidance. I support continuing this work and as Fred and others have pointed out, it should certainly build upon the already large body of RFCs, active and expired drafts in v6ops, 6man, softwires and behave. An annotated bibliography (of all the transition/coexistence docs) would help and if no one has one I might take a crack at that - I had done that before the behave interim meeting on transition scenarios, but have not kept it up to date. It is good to have a focused discussion to pull together problem statements, use cases and prior work that may address them. I don't have a strong opinion on creating a new WG, holding a BoF at IETF79 or doing the work under an existing charter such as v6ops. I will try to contribute and review the work regardless of where it is done. I hope we don't waste time debating logistics and organizational matters - the time could be better spent on the real problem and solutions. Ed J SRI International From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Aug 27 08:56:11 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 628A03A6AAA for ; Fri, 27 Aug 2010 08:56:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -108.738 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-108.738 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.843, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, J_CHICKENPOX_13=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, RDNS_NONE=0.1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Kgwzco4cIgD3 for ; Fri, 27 Aug 2010 08:56:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95B173A6A1B for ; Fri, 27 Aug 2010 08:56:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Op1Es-0004Op-T6 for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Fri, 27 Aug 2010 15:53:10 +0000 Received: from [171.71.176.117] (helo=sj-iport-6.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Op1Eq-0004OX-V3 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Aug 2010 15:53:09 +0000 Authentication-Results: sj-iport-6.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AvsEAHd8d0yrR7Hu/2dsb2JhbACgWXGgUZwAhTcEhDuFTg X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.56,279,1280707200"; d="scan'208";a="579666906" Received: from sj-core-5.cisco.com ([171.71.177.238]) by sj-iport-6.cisco.com with ESMTP; 27 Aug 2010 15:53:08 +0000 Received: from stealth-10-32-244-222.cisco.com (stealth-10-32-244-222.cisco.com [10.32.244.222]) by sj-core-5.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o7RFqx8P024238; Fri, 27 Aug 2010 15:53:01 GMT Received: from [127.0.0.1] by stealth-10-32-244-222.cisco.com (PGP Universal service); Fri, 27 Aug 2010 08:53:08 -0700 X-PGP-Universal: processed; by stealth-10-32-244-222.cisco.com on Fri, 27 Aug 2010 08:53:08 -0700 Subject: Re: [v4tov6transition] Some opinions about establish a new WG Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1081) From: Fred Baker In-Reply-To: <4C77D69C.1080601@sri.com> Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 08:52:53 -0700 Cc: huang cancan , IPv6 v6ops , Ron Bonica , v4tov6transition@ietf.org Message-Id: <964A58AE-BF21-4587-AAAC-A9C77715D3AE@cisco.com> References: <4C77D69C.1080601@sri.com> To: Ed Jankiewicz X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1081) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: On Aug 27, 2010, at 8:15 AM, Ed Jankiewicz wrote: > It is good to have a focused discussion to pull together problem = statements, use cases and prior work that may address them. I don't = have a strong opinion on creating a new WG, holding a BoF at IETF79 or = doing the work under an existing charter such as v6ops. I will try to = contribute and review the work regardless of where it is done. I hope = we don't waste time debating logistics and organizational matters - the = time could be better spent on the real problem and solutions. I'm pretty much in the same boat. From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Aug 27 09:45:43 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 223583A6994 for ; Fri, 27 Aug 2010 09:45:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.105 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.105 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.196, BAYES_05=-1.11, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OWkFSvyAo5DY for ; Fri, 27 Aug 2010 09:45:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B4143A6843 for ; Fri, 27 Aug 2010 09:45:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Op225-000AaZ-0z for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Fri, 27 Aug 2010 16:44:01 +0000 Received: from [93.17.128.11] (helo=smtp22.services.sfr.fr) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Op222-000AaE-He for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Aug 2010 16:43:59 +0000 Received: from filter.sfr.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by msfrf2222.sfr.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 8B3DA7000092; Fri, 27 Aug 2010 18:43:55 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.0.20] (per92-10-88-166-221-144.fbx.proxad.net [88.166.221.144]) by msfrf2222.sfr.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 3AE507000087; Fri, 27 Aug 2010 18:43:54 +0200 (CEST) X-SFR-UUID: 20100827164354241.3AE507000087@msfrf2222.sfr.fr Subject: Re: [v4tov6transition] draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1081) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?R=E9mi_Despr=E9s?= In-Reply-To: <1267DE09-3BBB-45C7-897C-6F8620F22AB4@cisco.com> Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 18:43:53 +0200 Cc: Yiu Lee , David Meyer , IPv6 v6ops , Kurt Erik Lindqvist Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <1267DE09-3BBB-45C7-897C-6F8620F22AB4@cisco.com> To: Fred Baker , v4tov6transition@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1081) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: Le 25 ao=FBt 2010 =E0 18:25, Fred Baker a =E9crit : > ... > If you have an existing IPv4 network, Free.FR deployed an IPv6 service = in their existing IPv4 network using 6rd with a team of a couple of = people and a month's time if I have the story straight. Not in a month's time, to be accurate, but still in only 5 weeks!=20 IMHO, everyone involved in IPv6 deployment should be interested in this = story. For more details: - tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5569=20 - www.ripe.net/ripe/meetings/ripe-58/content/presentations/ipv6-free =20 Regards, RD > That involved almost no actual native IPv6; 6rd is an IPv6/IPv4 tunnel = infrastructure. But it allowed them to provide both IPv4 and IPv6 = *services* to their customers while they took time to think about what = they wanted to do natively. They can change their network under the = hood, so to speak, an their own schedule. >=20 > Changing the network under the hood - that is the process hardware and = software audit and upgrade, proving out configurations, and applying = them where needed. No intention to trivialize, but if one can separate = "delivery of the service" from "deployment of the technology", it might = make the road a little easier. > ... From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Aug 27 10:32:12 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01A833A6A10 for ; Fri, 27 Aug 2010 10:32:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.069 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.069 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-2.147, BAYES_40=-0.185, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, J_CHICKENPOX_13=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_75=0.6, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Cj88NMQbZ5SS for ; Fri, 27 Aug 2010 10:32:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 477243A69E9 for ; Fri, 27 Aug 2010 10:31:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Op2j4-000G9X-H8 for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Fri, 27 Aug 2010 17:28:26 +0000 Received: from [93.17.128.11] (helo=smtp22.services.sfr.fr) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Op2j0-000G96-Et for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Aug 2010 17:28:23 +0000 Received: from filter.sfr.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by msfrf2222.sfr.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id E8F7D700009D; Fri, 27 Aug 2010 19:28:20 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.0.20] (per92-10-88-166-221-144.fbx.proxad.net [88.166.221.144]) by msfrf2222.sfr.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 931D070000A1; Fri, 27 Aug 2010 19:28:20 +0200 (CEST) X-SFR-UUID: 20100827172820602.931D070000A1@msfrf2222.sfr.fr Subject: Re: [v4tov6transition] Some opinions about establish a new WG Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1081) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?R=E9mi_Despr=E9s?= In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 19:28:20 +0200 Cc: IPv6 v6ops , joanthan Peng Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <32807B28-C3C0-47AC-9916-3C9048041F94@free.fr> References: To: v4tov6transition@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1081) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: Hi all, I support Tina's proposal to have a FAQ document on IPv6 deployments. IETF is in my understanding the right place to work on official answers = to these questions, in an easily readable format. If v6ops isn't the place to do this work, and write consensus answers to = ALL questions that people involved in IPv6 deployments may ask, then a = new WG is IMHO the right solution. - Answers may be pointers to other bodies. - Questions, shouldn't be limited to Operations-and-Management = considerations; they should include some customer-oriented ones. Regards, RD > Hi all, > I totally agree with Cancan opinion. In ISP's point of view, there are = so many problems we need to handle when transitioning v4 to v6, and some = of these problems may be not "very" technical, like how to do IPv6 = address planning and what elements should be considered, or in the case = of China Telecom's network, which technics should be selected to deploy = to CT's network and what elements should be considered, etc.=20 >=20 > I think the answers for these problems are very valuable for other = ISPs, and worth our discussion. >=20 > On Fri, Aug 27, 2010 at 12:46 PM, huang cancan = wrote: > hi, folks: > As a person who have worked in telecom operator for many years, I = do appreciate the thousands of rfcs the IETF provide us and they do help = us a lot when we deploy technologies in our network. However, I am here = to argue that is very necessary to establish a new WG which is really = focus on the operator's need and solve our problems. > =20 > At first, I want to make it clear that what is the operator really = need when they starting v4 to v6 transition. Why I emphasize the topic = of v6 transition is because this item is quite different from any other = projects. It is just like to establish a new Internet world!!! It is = definitely a huge systematic work other than how to deploy DS-lite in = the network. When we start this project, we first have to show our boss = the migration strategies and paths, tell him what will happen at what = time and what we can do to solve that problems step by step. When we = start to do a thing we need a road map, isn't it? So, the real = requirement of a operator to start his tour on IPv6 transition is to = work out the strategies. And this is what 6ops cannot provide us because = they say it is our own business problem. However, hey, the business = problem is the foremost problem, isn't it? Without solve this problem, = we even cannot start our tour~~~ The evidence is as below: > = --------------------------------------------------------------------------= --------------------------------------------------------------------------= --------------------------------------------- How to decide the = scale of the IPv6 address space we need? For example, China telecom will = have 100+ millions subscribers in the next 3 years, and M2M service will = come soon, so we should apply for /24 or shorter? > Since IPv6 address space is large, you can start with a longer = prefix and grow. If the APNIC=92s policy allows you to get a /24, you = can ask for it. > =20 > What kind of address allocation schemes should be deployed in = enterprise networks? Provider aggregatable address, provider independent = address or local address? If PA address, how to avoid renumbering when = the enterprise network change site or provider? If PI address, how to = reduce routing table? If local address, how to make sure all of the = computers can access internet, NAT66 is a good choice or not? > I think this is more like a business decision than technology = decision. An ISP can definitely offer service to give enterprises an IP = prefix from its own aggregate. However, some enterprise won=92t like it = because of the renumber problem you mentioned by switching provider. > =20 > = --------------------------------------------------------------------------= --------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- > Well, it is not the answer we need. What we need is what length = of prefix we should apply, which is appropriate for us. You cannot = suggest every operator that them can start a longer prefix...... What we = need is: is there any model or formula to calculate the prefix length = that we need or address architecture planning with the considerations of = the subscriber scale and increase rate? And how can operators to utilize = the address bits before /56 and after /56 to distinguish different type = of service or different metropolitan area network in order to optimize = the routing or management. > You may said it is our own business problem,depend which one we = like...... I do believe this answer can not solve the operator's = problem. If 6ops continues gave us that answer, I don't believe the = final guideline 6ops provide us will meet our requirements. > If the so called business problem,which is the most important = factor to make a strategy, is not concerned by 6ops, can we gather some = people working in the operator who is interest about that to discuss our = business problem in another WG, in which business problem will not be = ignored? > =20 > Can-can Huang > =20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > v4tov6transition mailing list > v4tov6transition@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v4tov6transition >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > v4tov6transition mailing list > v4tov6transition@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v4tov6transition From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Aug 27 12:20:29 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF1A23A6AC0 for ; Fri, 27 Aug 2010 12:20:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.612 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.612 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.417, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OmhUwS2C2SZ8 for ; Fri, 27 Aug 2010 12:20:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9929E3A6ABB for ; Fri, 27 Aug 2010 12:20:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Op4Pq-0002ki-WF for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Fri, 27 Aug 2010 19:16:43 +0000 Received: from [128.18.30.17] (helo=mail1.sri.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Op4Po-0002kT-Hn for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Aug 2010 19:16:40 +0000 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Received: from [192.168.1.144] ([unknown] [69.248.172.73]) by mail.sri.com (Sun Java(tm) System Messaging Server 7u2-7.05 32bit (built Jul 30 2009)) with ESMTPSA id <0L7T00FAYS7PJI60@mail.sri.com> for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Aug 2010 12:16:38 -0700 (PDT) Message-id: <4C780F18.5000709@sri.com> Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 15:16:40 -0400 From: Ed Jankiewicz User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.9.2.8) Gecko/20100802 Thunderbird/3.1.2 To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?R=E9mi_Despr=E9s?= Cc: Fred Baker , v4tov6transition@ietf.org, David Meyer , IPv6 v6ops , Kurt Erik Lindqvist Subject: Re: [v4tov6transition] draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC References: <1267DE09-3BBB-45C7-897C-6F8620F22AB4@cisco.com> In-reply-to: Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: Not an endorsement, merely a data point: I am currently using 6rd for IPv6 access as part of a trial deployment by Comcast. The shipped me the 6rd-enhanced router, and it was plug-and-play. If not for the dancing turtle (and Google and Facebook via IPv6) I would hardly notice a difference from my baseline service. WFM, YMMV. This is a methodology to consider if modification of CPE is reasonable in your network. If not, there are variants being discussed that will work with unmodified CPE. http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5569 http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5969 http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-despres-softwire-6rdplus-00 http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-lee-softwire-6rd-udp-02 Ed J On 8/27/2010 12:43 PM, Rémi Després wrote: > Le 25 août 2010 à 18:25, Fred Baker a écrit : >> ... >> If you have an existing IPv4 network, Free.FR deployed an IPv6 service in their existing IPv4 network using 6rd with a team of a couple of people and a month's time if I have the story straight. > Not in a month's time, to be accurate, but still in only 5 weeks! > IMHO, everyone involved in IPv6 deployment should be interested in this story. > For more details: > - tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5569 > - www.ripe.net/ripe/meetings/ripe-58/content/presentations/ipv6-free > > Regards, > RD > > >> That involved almost no actual native IPv6; 6rd is an IPv6/IPv4 tunnel infrastructure. But it allowed them to provide both IPv4 and IPv6 *services* to their customers while they took time to think about what they wanted to do natively. They can change their network under the hood, so to speak, an their own schedule. >> >> Changing the network under the hood - that is the process hardware and software audit and upgrade, proving out configurations, and applying them where needed. No intention to trivialize, but if one can separate "delivery of the service" from "deployment of the technology", it might make the road a little easier. >> ... > > _______________________________________________ > v4tov6transition mailing list > v4tov6transition@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v4tov6transition From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Aug 27 13:59:37 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 594C33A6828 for ; Fri, 27 Aug 2010 13:59:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.324 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.324 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.829, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GAl0seMVf+CG for ; Fri, 27 Aug 2010 13:59:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12CA93A67B5 for ; Fri, 27 Aug 2010 13:59:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Op5xr-000DJU-Iw for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Fri, 27 Aug 2010 20:55:55 +0000 Received: from [209.85.215.180] (helo=mail-ey0-f180.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Op5xo-000DJD-NA for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Aug 2010 20:55:53 +0000 Received: by eya25 with SMTP id 25so2985675eya.11 for ; Fri, 27 Aug 2010 13:55:48 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from :organization:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=yOUms34hL2S8597Cn4mdmRU/dZVLvx79OUrBqUdZito=; b=hrJESFS2huNxr3ryxFhGhk1qqJOeph68ulaG1tfytNHWZrwzmt9jcqQ7OdDBsav+WO 48NQbTyQfkw5/TK9955QVGSTs9ApAUwIyXsEeqbp35GB0fBF7p798o+m57MTCXSOWYbP PX1pi2ps2SHnc44/PNO9T8qvUm+oC5EecDSSY= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:organization:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc :subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=muFBFVXbWVuyLuKqZhj2jqOu2g6O2dXo972SxngMZYxWoOb7+WpE7VFIM4lo/dZYqN gxTagc1oA217/BveHNm/J5Xlv8AnrSIdz2YgpY1phsbhPaxlyeWhnv0Hxtv/UhDDCXhF 8L/7ccpwYeajGJ25nwnUC3OAzx77rCX3PZCi0= Received: by 10.213.4.130 with SMTP id 2mr3058351ebr.10.1282942548608; Fri, 27 Aug 2010 13:55:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.1.1.4] ([121.98.142.15]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id z55sm6806792eeh.15.2010.08.27.13.55.43 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Fri, 27 Aug 2010 13:55:47 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4C782649.2000903@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2010 08:55:37 +1200 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Windows/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ed Jankiewicz CC: =?UTF-8?B?UsOpbWkgRGVzcHLDqXM=?= , David Meyer , IPv6 v6ops , Kurt Erik Lindqvist , v4tov6transition@ietf.org Subject: Re: [v4tov6transition] draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC References: <1267DE09-3BBB-45C7-897C-6F8620F22AB4@cisco.com> <4C780F18.5000709@sri.com> In-Reply-To: <4C780F18.5000709@sri.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: Ed, To your list of alternatives, please add http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-carpenter-softwire-sample Regards Brian Carpenter On 2010-08-28 07:16, Ed Jankiewicz wrote: > Not an endorsement, merely a data point: I am currently using 6rd for= > IPv6 access as part of a trial deployment by Comcast. The shipped me > the 6rd-enhanced router, and it was plug-and-play. If not for the > dancing turtle (and Google and Facebook via IPv6) I would hardly notice= > a difference from my baseline service. WFM, YMMV. >=20 > This is a methodology to consider if modification of CPE is reasonable > in your network. If not, there are variants being discussed that will > work with unmodified CPE. >=20 > http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5569 > http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5969 > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-despres-softwire-6rdplus-00 > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-lee-softwire-6rd-udp-02 >=20 > Ed J > On 8/27/2010 12:43 PM, R=C3=A9mi Despr=C3=A9s wrote: >> Le 25 ao=C3=BBt 2010 =C3=A0 18:25, Fred Baker a =C3=A9crit : >>> ... >>> If you have an existing IPv4 network, Free.FR deployed an IPv6 >>> service in their existing IPv4 network using 6rd with a team of a >>> couple of people and a month's time if I have the story straight. >> Not in a month's time, to be accurate, but still in only 5 weeks! >> IMHO, everyone involved in IPv6 deployment should be interested in >> this story. >> For more details: >> - tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5569 >> - www.ripe.net/ripe/meetings/ripe-58/content/presentations/ipv6-free >> >> Regards, >> RD >> >> >>> That involved almost no actual native IPv6; 6rd is an IPv6/IPv4 >>> tunnel infrastructure. But it allowed them to provide both IPv4 and >>> IPv6 *services* to their customers while they took time to think >>> about what they wanted to do natively. They can change their network >>> under the hood, so to speak, an their own schedule. >>> >>> Changing the network under the hood - that is the process hardware >>> and software audit and upgrade, proving out configurations, and >>> applying them where needed. No intention to trivialize, but if one >>> can separate "delivery of the service" from "deployment of the >>> technology", it might make the road a little easier. >>> ... >> >> _______________________________________________ >> v4tov6transition mailing list >> v4tov6transition@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v4tov6transition >=20 > _______________________________________________ > v4tov6transition mailing list > v4tov6transition@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v4tov6transition >=20 From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Aug 27 14:40:02 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F65B3A687F for ; Fri, 27 Aug 2010 14:40:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.78 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.78 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.285, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ONWKVPWpVObF for ; Fri, 27 Aug 2010 14:40:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D55D3A687E for ; Fri, 27 Aug 2010 14:40:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Op6cQ-000Hp7-9L for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Fri, 27 Aug 2010 21:37:50 +0000 Received: from [128.18.30.17] (helo=mail1.sri.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Op6cN-000Hog-Qf for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Aug 2010 21:37:48 +0000 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-type: text/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII; format=flowed Received: from [192.168.1.144] ([unknown] [69.248.172.73]) by mail.sri.com (Sun Java(tm) System Messaging Server 7u2-7.05 32bit (built Jul 30 2009)) with ESMTPSA id <0L7T00FRTYQYCQC0@mail.sri.com> for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Aug 2010 14:37:47 -0700 (PDT) Message-id: <4C78302C.2060306@sri.com> Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 17:37:48 -0400 From: Ed Jankiewicz User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.9.2.8) Gecko/20100802 Thunderbird/3.1.2 To: IPv6 v6ops Cc: Brian E Carpenter , v4tov6transition@ietf.org Subject: Annotated Bibliography of v4v6 Transition Docs References: <1267DE09-3BBB-45C7-897C-6F8620F22AB4@cisco.com> <4C780F18.5000709@sri.com> <4C782649.2000903@gmail.com> In-reply-to: <4C782649.2000903@gmail.com> Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: As I said, that comment was just one data point; there are a lot of proposals and alternatives and I'm sure we are all swamped. I am willing to try to collate all the docs floating around the topic into a comprehensive (eventually) annotated bibliography for this group to consider. This should help authors find each other, avoid duplication and cite related work. I am accepting any and all suggestions and pointers. Please reply on this thread, either just directly to me, or to the v4tov6transition@ietf.org if it might be of interest to all. Internet-Drafts, RFCs, other publications and websites on topics of interest: transition problem statements network operator experience, implementation reports experiments, trials and prototypes vendor/operator white papers, how-to, FAQs coexistence and transition tools and anything that you think is relevant Thanks Ed J. On 8/27/2010 4:55 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > Ed, > > To your list of alternatives, please add > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-carpenter-softwire-sample > > Regards > Brian Carpenter From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Aug 27 14:53:19 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10FAE3A683E for ; Fri, 27 Aug 2010 14:53:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.051 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.051 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.352, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_13=0.6, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EImVTIkMFQnN for ; Fri, 27 Aug 2010 14:53:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F8E03A67E6 for ; Fri, 27 Aug 2010 14:53:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Op6qU-000JK5-Aq for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Fri, 27 Aug 2010 21:52:22 +0000 Received: from [2001:418:1::40] (helo=ran.psg.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Op6qS-000JJu-8w for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Aug 2010 21:52:20 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=rmac.psg.com.psg.com) by ran.psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Op6qP-000IZs-3L; Fri, 27 Aug 2010 21:52:17 +0000 Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2010 06:52:16 +0900 Message-ID: From: Randy Bush To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?R=E9mi_Despr=E9s?= Cc: v4tov6transition@ietf.org, IPv6 v6ops , joanthan Peng Subject: Re: [v4tov6transition] Some opinions about establish a new WG In-Reply-To: <32807B28-C3C0-47AC-9916-3C9048041F94@free.fr> References: <32807B28-C3C0-47AC-9916-3C9048041F94@free.fr> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 (Almost Unreal) Emacs/22.3 Mule/5.0 (SAKAKI) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI 1.14.6 - "Maruoka") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: > If v6ops isn't the place to do this work, and write consensus answers > to ALL questions that people involved in IPv6 deployments may ask then why the heck would v6ops exist? randy From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Aug 27 15:04:45 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6AC033A687B for ; Fri, 27 Aug 2010 15:04:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.498 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.498 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.101, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yx0STuc0R36V for ; Fri, 27 Aug 2010 15:04:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5DE53A683E for ; Fri, 27 Aug 2010 15:04:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Op705-000KlA-BI for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Fri, 27 Aug 2010 22:02:17 +0000 Received: from [2001:418:1::40] (helo=ran.psg.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Op702-000KkT-TR for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Aug 2010 22:02:14 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=rmac.psg.com.psg.com) by ran.psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Op702-000Ic5-Ms; Fri, 27 Aug 2010 22:02:14 +0000 Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2010 07:02:13 +0900 Message-ID: From: Randy Bush To: Fred Baker Cc: IPv6 v6ops Subject: Re: [v4tov6transition] Some opinions about establish a new WG In-Reply-To: References: User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 (Almost Unreal) Emacs/22.3 Mule/5.0 (SAKAKI) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI 1.14.6 - "Maruoka") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: > The continuation of IPv4 service during transition, what I call the > "coexistence phase", is at this point very near term transition issue, > and is the subject in part of > > http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-v6ops-incremental-cgn my apologies for being picky again. but is this really about transition, or more about yet another complex solution for how to hack ipv6 through a severely damaged ipv4 network? i.e. it's a we're-not-gonna-transition draft. maybe we should call it ipv4 'intransigent' technology :) > I would encourage the operators to read and comment on it. are you sure you want to encourage me further? :) > Frankly, the final phases of transition will not be about "keeping > IPv4 alive" as much as "how best to turn it off". yep. and analogously, are not the intial phases about actually turning ipv6 on? for real. like not tunnels, not hacks. randy From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Aug 27 15:22:56 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F0893A683E for ; Fri, 27 Aug 2010 15:22:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.427 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.427 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, RCVD_NUMERIC_HELO=2.067, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id whFhuiUXi6yP for ; Fri, 27 Aug 2010 15:22:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DB073A687B for ; Fri, 27 Aug 2010 15:22:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Op7I3-000NPM-Lu for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Fri, 27 Aug 2010 22:20:51 +0000 Received: from [171.71.176.70] (helo=sj-iport-1.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Op7I1-000NOu-6E for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Aug 2010 22:20:49 +0000 Authentication-Results: sj-iport-1.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AoUHAGfXd0yrRN+K/2dsb2JhbACDFZAjhRcBiAoCcaFHiWqRboEigyJzBIQ7hU6Ccw X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.56,280,1280707200"; d="scan'208";a="356007119" Received: from sj-core-4.cisco.com ([171.68.223.138]) by sj-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 27 Aug 2010 22:20:48 +0000 Received: from xbh-sjc-231.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-231.cisco.com [128.107.191.100]) by sj-core-4.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o7RMKmC6011179 for ; Fri, 27 Aug 2010 22:20:48 GMT Received: from xmb-sjc-232.amer.cisco.com ([128.107.191.41]) by xbh-sjc-231.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Fri, 27 Aug 2010 15:20:48 -0700 Received: from 72.163.62.136 ([72.163.62.136]) by xmb-sjc-232.amer.cisco.com ([128.107.191.41]) with Microsoft Exchange Server HTTP-DAV ; Fri, 27 Aug 2010 22:20:46 +0000 Message-ID: <53ADA6FA-34C8-41DE-813B-01CC9F2DB9FB@cisco.com> From: "Brad Stewart (brastewa)" Thread-Topic: [v4tov6transition] Some opinions about establish a new WG thread-index: ActGNhhKShVIVwitS3GWLkVtmbqs0A== To: "Fred Baker" Cc: "IPv6 v6ops" Subject: [v4tov6transition] Some opinions about establish a new WG Importance: Normal MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_1_1282947659399"; charset="utf-8" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 27 Aug 2010 22:20:48.0246 (UTC) FILETIME=[19A2A960:01CB4636] Date: 27 Aug 2010 15:20:48 -0700 Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: ------=_Part_1_1282947659399 Content-Type: text/plain; charset= utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline > The continuation of IPv4 service during transition, what I call the > "coexistence phase", is at this point very near term transition issue, > and is the subject in part of > > http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-v6ops-incremental-cgn my apologies for being picky again. but is this really about transition, or more about yet another complex solution for how to hack ipv6 through a severely damaged ipv4 network? i.e. it's a we're-not-gonna-transition draft. maybe we should call it ipv4 'intransigent' technology :) > I would encourage the operators to read and comment on it. are you sure you want to encourage me further? :) > Frankly, the final phases of transition will not be about "keeping > IPv4 alive" as much as "how best to turn it off". yep. and analogously, are not the intial phases about actually turning ipv6 on? for real. like not tunnels, not hacks. randy ------=_Part_1_1282947659399 Content-Type: text/html; charset= utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline > The continuation of IPv4 service during transition, what I call the
> "coexistence phase", is at this point very near term transition issue,
> and is the subject in part of
>
> http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-v6ops-incremental-cgn

my apologies for being picky again.  but is this really about
transition, or more about yet another complex solution for how to
hack ipv6 through a severely damaged ipv4 network?  i.e. it's a
we're-not-gonna-transition draft.  maybe we should call it ipv4
'intransigent' technology :)

> I would encourage the operators to read and comment on it.

are you sure you want to encourage me further?  :)

> Frankly, the final phases of transition will not be about "keeping
> IPv4 alive" as much as "how best to turn it off".

yep.  and analogously, are not the intial phases about actually
turning ipv6 on?  for real.  like not tunnels, not hacks.

randy

------=_Part_1_1282947659399-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Aug 27 15:29:55 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DEE143A687B for ; Fri, 27 Aug 2010 15:29:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -108.739 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-108.739 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.844, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, J_CHICKENPOX_13=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, RDNS_NONE=0.1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KaPE8K65-j-q for ; Fri, 27 Aug 2010 15:29:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4895A3A68AF for ; Fri, 27 Aug 2010 15:29:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Op7QO-000OJJ-8A for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Fri, 27 Aug 2010 22:29:28 +0000 Received: from [171.68.10.87] (helo=sj-iport-5.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Op7QL-000OJ1-PI for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Aug 2010 22:29:25 +0000 Authentication-Results: sj-iport-5.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AvsEAM7Yd0yrR7Ht/2dsb2JhbACgXHGhQ5tYhTcEhDuFTg X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.56,280,1280707200"; d="scan'208";a="246489018" Received: from sj-core-1.cisco.com ([171.71.177.237]) by sj-iport-5.cisco.com with ESMTP; 27 Aug 2010 22:29:25 +0000 Received: from stealth-10-32-244-222.cisco.com (stealth-10-32-244-222.cisco.com [10.32.244.222]) by sj-core-1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o7RMTGB7016041; Fri, 27 Aug 2010 22:29:18 GMT Received: from [127.0.0.1] by stealth-10-32-244-222.cisco.com (PGP Universal service); Fri, 27 Aug 2010 15:29:25 -0700 X-PGP-Universal: processed; by stealth-10-32-244-222.cisco.com on Fri, 27 Aug 2010 15:29:25 -0700 Subject: Re: [v4tov6transition] Some opinions about establish a new WG Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1081) From: Fred Baker In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 15:29:10 -0700 Cc: IPv6 v6ops Message-Id: <0DE40875-031E-4CE8-94CD-1F1E9B0CE5A2@cisco.com> References: To: Randy Bush X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1081) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: On Aug 27, 2010, at 3:02 PM, Randy Bush wrote: >> The continuation of IPv4 service during transition, what I call the = "coexistence phase", is at this point very near term transition issue, = and is the subject in part of >>=20 >> http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-v6ops-incremental-cgn >=20 > my apologies for being picky again. but is this really about = transition, or more about yet another complex solution for how to hack = ipv6 through a severely damaged ipv4 network? i.e. it's a = we're-not-gonna-transition draft. maybe we should call it ipv4 = 'intransigent' technology :) That's not how I read it. I read it as pretty responsive to what the = operators on v4tov6transition@ietf.org are asking: "while we deploy IPv6 = with global addressing, we have an existing IPv4 business to maintain. = We have issues in how we do that. How should we do that?" It says, in essence, "run two networks in parallel". One is a vanilla = IPv6 network. The other is, gak, an IPv4 network in which several = instances of RFC 1918 address space are run in parallel to IPv4/IPv4 = NATs within the SP. Examples of such exist in many networks; at the = recent Google symposium, Verizon is quoted (I wasn't there) as saying = they had 70 instances of such running in parallel. Since homes = frequently use 192.168.0.0/16 or 10.0.0.0/8, I would expect ISPs might = use 172.16.0.0/12 in their layer. It has all the issues of NAT'd address = space, and being dual layer, has them even more so, so it's not a very = wonderful service. But, for client/server applications whose servers are = in the global address space and for p2p applications with supernodes and = meet-me points in the global address space, it works. It permits the ISP = to keep its business functional while deploying IPv6. Having deployed = IPv6, and having their customers upgrade CPE software and/or hardware to = be able to use it, they will have a much better network and better = service.=20 I opened a discussion this morning with my AD on this topic; I will = argue that it is perhaps in a grey area of the charter (it is an issue = related to deployment and transition, which is in scope but per the = charter of less emphasis). We as a working group will probably wind up = amending the charter to make this more clear. I don't think, though, that v6ops - an operationally-focussed working = group - can practically say "we're only going to look at the issues of = networks that have finished deployment; we will not look at the issues = of networks that want to deploy and have problems". I understand = legitimate problems to be in scope, and this is a problem that they = legitimately have. In any event, once the WGLC is completed and the document is off to the = IESG, we won't need to have this discussion regarding it.=20= From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Aug 27 16:19:24 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72F323A688F for ; Fri, 27 Aug 2010 16:19:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -108.736 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-108.736 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.841, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, J_CHICKENPOX_13=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, RDNS_NONE=0.1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id v39tBnVtRel4 for ; Fri, 27 Aug 2010 16:19:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0AE533A68DE for ; Fri, 27 Aug 2010 16:19:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Op89F-0003UE-Ep for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Fri, 27 Aug 2010 23:15:49 +0000 Received: from [171.71.176.72] (helo=sj-iport-3.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Op89C-0003Tz-Su for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 27 Aug 2010 23:15:46 +0000 Authentication-Results: sj-iport-3.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AvsEAErkd0yrR7H+/2dsb2JhbACgXnGhJptOhTcEhDuFTg X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.56,280,1280707200"; d="scan'208";a="235843013" Received: from sj-core-2.cisco.com ([171.71.177.254]) by sj-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP; 27 Aug 2010 23:15:46 +0000 Received: from stealth-10-32-244-222.cisco.com (stealth-10-32-244-222.cisco.com [10.32.244.222]) by sj-core-2.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o7RNFc7c014971; Fri, 27 Aug 2010 23:15:39 GMT Received: from [127.0.0.1] by stealth-10-32-244-222.cisco.com (PGP Universal service); Fri, 27 Aug 2010 16:15:46 -0700 X-PGP-Universal: processed; by stealth-10-32-244-222.cisco.com on Fri, 27 Aug 2010 16:15:46 -0700 Subject: Re: [v4tov6transition] Some opinions about establish a new WG Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1081) From: Fred Baker In-Reply-To: <0DE40875-031E-4CE8-94CD-1F1E9B0CE5A2@cisco.com> Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 16:15:31 -0700 Cc: IPv6 v6ops Message-Id: <2FE692E5-4B1D-4F2E-8A6B-083FDCF8FF44@cisco.com> References: <0DE40875-031E-4CE8-94CD-1F1E9B0CE5A2@cisco.com> To: Randy Bush X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1081) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: I'll remind you, btw, that "draft-ietf-v6ops..." means that the working = group was asked if they wanted to support it, and said "yes". I'm = willing to talk about why it's in the WG, but - it's in the WG. On Aug 27, 2010, at 3:29 PM, Fred Baker wrote: > On Aug 27, 2010, at 3:02 PM, Randy Bush wrote: >>> The continuation of IPv4 service during transition, what I call the = "coexistence phase", is at this point very near term transition issue, = and is the subject in part of >>>=20 >>> http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-v6ops-incremental-cgn >>=20 >> my apologies for being picky again. but is this really about = transition, or more about yet another complex solution for how to hack = ipv6 through a severely damaged ipv4 network? i.e. it's a = we're-not-gonna-transition draft. maybe we should call it ipv4 = 'intransigent' technology :) >=20 > That's not how I read it. I read it as pretty responsive to what the = operators on v4tov6transition@ietf.org are asking: "while we deploy IPv6 = with global addressing, we have an existing IPv4 business to maintain. = We have issues in how we do that. How should we do that?" >=20 > It says, in essence, "run two networks in parallel". One is a vanilla = IPv6 network. The other is, gak, an IPv4 network in which several = instances of RFC 1918 address space are run in parallel to IPv4/IPv4 = NATs within the SP. Examples of such exist in many networks; at the = recent Google symposium, Verizon is quoted (I wasn't there) as saying = they had 70 instances of such running in parallel. Since homes = frequently use 192.168.0.0/16 or 10.0.0.0/8, I would expect ISPs might = use 172.16.0.0/12 in their layer. It has all the issues of NAT'd address = space, and being dual layer, has them even more so, so it's not a very = wonderful service. But, for client/server applications whose servers are = in the global address space and for p2p applications with supernodes and = meet-me points in the global address space, it works. It permits the ISP = to keep its business functional while deploying IPv6. Having deployed = IPv6, and having their customers upgrade CPE software and/or hardware to = be able to use it, they will have a much better network and better = service.=20 >=20 > I opened a discussion this morning with my AD on this topic; I will = argue that it is perhaps in a grey area of the charter (it is an issue = related to deployment and transition, which is in scope but per the = charter of less emphasis). We as a working group will probably wind up = amending the charter to make this more clear. >=20 > I don't think, though, that v6ops - an operationally-focussed working = group - can practically say "we're only going to look at the issues of = networks that have finished deployment; we will not look at the issues = of networks that want to deploy and have problems". I understand = legitimate problems to be in scope, and this is a problem that they = legitimately have. >=20 > In any event, once the WGLC is completed and the document is off to = the IESG, we won't need to have this discussion regarding it.=20 From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Aug 27 19:58:32 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74F4D3A677E for ; Fri, 27 Aug 2010 19:58:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.200, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_13=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id potC9OEZmK1a for ; Fri, 27 Aug 2010 19:58:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 757F23A677C for ; Fri, 27 Aug 2010 19:58:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OpBXe-000LEo-Iz for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Sat, 28 Aug 2010 02:53:14 +0000 Received: from [2001:418:1::40] (helo=ran.psg.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OpBXZ-000LEP-5d for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Sat, 28 Aug 2010 02:53:10 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=rmac.psg.com.psg.com) by ran.psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OpBXX-000KMc-GV; Sat, 28 Aug 2010 02:53:07 +0000 Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2010 11:53:05 +0900 Message-ID: From: Randy Bush To: Fred Baker Cc: IPv6 v6ops Subject: Re: [v4tov6transition] Some opinions about establish a new WG In-Reply-To: <0DE40875-031E-4CE8-94CD-1F1E9B0CE5A2@cisco.com> References: <0DE40875-031E-4CE8-94CD-1F1E9B0CE5A2@cisco.com> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 (Almost Unreal) Emacs/22.3 Mule/5.0 (SAKAKI) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI 1.14.6 - "Maruoka") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: will it cause you pain if i send this? randy -- From: Randy Bush To: Fred Baker Subject: Re: [v4tov6transition] Some opinions about establish a new WG i think we are actually in agreement. as i said, i was only picking on terminology. and if mrs. greenberg has to be loaded on the train, who better than we? >> my apologies for being picky again. but is this really about >> transition, or more about yet another complex solution for how to >> hack ipv6 through a severely damaged ipv4 network? i.e. it's a >> we're-not-gonna-transition draft. maybe we should call it ipv4 >> 'intransigent' technology :) > That's not how I read it. I read it as pretty responsive to what the > operators on v4tov6transition@ietf.org are asking: "while we deploy > IPv6 with global addressing, we have an existing IPv4 business to > maintain. We have issues in how we do that. How should we do that?" the problem is that, as far as i know, it is s/while/until/. i.e. the nat444 (and similar) networks are not actually deploying ipv6 with global addressing. it is not that i am objecting to this work being done, someone needs to rescue their vic^h^h^hcustomers. i just have a problem calling it 'transition' when the network is not actually being transitioned. the vic^h^h^hcustomers are being given strange tools to tunnel over/through ever more damaged ipv4 networks. > It says, in essence, "run two networks in parallel". does it? or does it say, run a heavily natted rfc1918 network and provide tunnel overlays for ipv6? dual-stack is two networks in parallel. and, btw, we have seen that, where the two networks of a dual-stack deployment are non-congruent, noc calls breed [0]. and tunnels are non-congruent, and have similar employment opportunities for noccers. > I don't think, though, that v6ops - an operationally-focussed working > group - can practically say "we're only going to look at the issues of > networks that have finished deployment; i guess, if it has to happen, it should be in v6ops. my altzheimer's device is saying that i chartered ngtrans, and i did read george santayana back in school. randy --- [0] - just try turning on multi-protocol is-is on a local c7200 image, for a fun example. From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Aug 27 23:05:54 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E9033A6774 for ; Fri, 27 Aug 2010 23:05:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.336 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.336 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.538, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, J_CHICKENPOX_13=0.6, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id X089pJ0eba1U for ; Fri, 27 Aug 2010 23:05:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3387A3A63D3 for ; Fri, 27 Aug 2010 23:05:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OpETD-0007lc-EA for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Sat, 28 Aug 2010 06:00:51 +0000 Received: from [93.17.128.19] (helo=smtp23.services.sfr.fr) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OpETB-0007lL-8N for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Sat, 28 Aug 2010 06:00:49 +0000 Received: from filter.sfr.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by msfrf2304.sfr.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id B4C5A7000094; Sat, 28 Aug 2010 08:00:47 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.0.20] (per92-10-88-166-221-144.fbx.proxad.net [88.166.221.144]) by msfrf2304.sfr.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id DE72D7000087; Sat, 28 Aug 2010 08:00:46 +0200 (CEST) X-SFR-UUID: 20100828060046911.DE72D7000087@msfrf2304.sfr.fr Subject: Re: [v4tov6transition] Some opinions about establish a new WG Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1081) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?R=E9mi_Despr=E9s?= In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2010 08:00:44 +0200 Cc: v4tov6transition@ietf.org, IPv6 v6ops , joanthan Peng Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <08792D62-872C-4034-8000-8D22A03733F2@free.fr> References: <32807B28-C3C0-47AC-9916-3C9048041F94@free.fr> To: Randy Bush X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1081) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: Le 27 ao=FBt 2010 =E0 23:52, Randy Bush a =E9crit : >> If v6ops isn't the place to do this work, and write consensus answers >> to ALL questions that people involved in IPv6 deployments may ask >=20 > then why the heck would v6ops exist? Whether v6ops is the place not only for OAM questions, but ALSO for = customer and product-vendor considerations, is IMHO still unclear. Making official where the work on a comprehensive and easily readable = FAQ-document may start would be welcome. RD =20 >=20 > randy From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Sat Aug 28 00:44:09 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FFC53A680E for ; Sat, 28 Aug 2010 00:44:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -108.73 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-108.73 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.836, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_13=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, RDNS_NONE=0.1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KhMyMRqQeIba for ; Sat, 28 Aug 2010 00:44:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7AE853A680D for ; Sat, 28 Aug 2010 00:44:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OpG1p-000F2Z-4j for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Sat, 28 Aug 2010 07:40:41 +0000 Received: from [171.71.176.72] (helo=sj-iport-3.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OpG1k-000F1v-7N for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Sat, 28 Aug 2010 07:40:36 +0000 Authentication-Results: sj-iport-3.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AlwFAKZaeEyrR7H+/2dsb2JhbACBQoFTlT2IDXGeNolkCJFahEB3BIQ7hU4 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.56,283,1280707200"; d="scan'208,217";a="235864900" Received: from sj-core-2.cisco.com ([171.71.177.254]) by sj-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP; 28 Aug 2010 07:40:35 +0000 Received: from stealth-10-32-244-222.cisco.com (stealth-10-32-244-222.cisco.com [10.32.244.222]) by sj-core-2.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o7S7eSA9015754; Sat, 28 Aug 2010 07:40:29 GMT Received: from [127.0.0.1] by stealth-10-32-244-222.cisco.com (PGP Universal service); Sat, 28 Aug 2010 00:40:35 -0700 X-PGP-Universal: processed; by stealth-10-32-244-222.cisco.com on Sat, 28 Aug 2010 00:40:35 -0700 Subject: Re: [v4tov6transition] I-Ds in the pipeline Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1081) From: Fred Baker X-Priority: 3 In-Reply-To: <8CE4E74D3087453FBE85836713BD2FC5@china.huawei.com> Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2010 00:40:21 -0700 Cc: v4tov6transition@ietf.org, IPv6 v6ops Message-Id: References: <8CE4E74D3087453FBE85836713BD2FC5@china.huawei.com> To: Tina TSOU X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1081) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-593--268656405 Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: --Apple-Mail-593--268656405 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Thanks, Tina. Copying v6ops. On Aug 27, 2010, at 11:57 PM, Tina TSOU wrote: > Hi all, > There are I-Ds in the pipeline. They were discussed in 3 ad hoc = meetings in Maastricht. The 3rd ad hoc meeting was the name of = v4tov6transition Bar BoF. It was clear for the people who participated = in, mainly the people from v4transition@googlegroups.com. Fred suggested = making it more open. Here we go. > =20 > The summary below might not be precise, so please correct me if = needed. > =20 > draft-lee-v4v6tran-problem-statemetn-00 (Interested people can contact = the editor Yiu yiu_Lee@Cable.Comcast.com for your contribution) > =20 > draft-yang-v4v6tran-use-case (affiliation China Telecom, Interested = people can contact the editors Guo-Liang yanggl@gsta.com and Can-can = huangcc@gsta.com for your contribution) > =20 > draft-lee-v4v6tran-use-case-na-cable (affiliation Cable Labs, Rogers, = Cable Labs, Cox, Interested people can contact the editors = Yiuyiu_Lee@Cable.Comcast.com and Victor victor.kuarsingh@rci.rogers.com = for your contribution) > =20 > draft-li-v4v6tran-use-case (affiliation China Mobile, Interested = people can contact the editor Lian-Yuan lilianyuan@chinamobile.com ; = Qiong-Fang maqiongfang@chinamobile.com; and Gang = chengang@chinamobile.com for your contribution) > =20 > draft-carpenter-v4v6tran-framework-00 (Interested people can contact = the editor Brian brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com for your contribution) > =20 > draft-yang-v4v6tran-migration-guide-for-scenario-1 (Interested people = can contact the editors Guo-Liang yanggl@gsta.com and Can-can = huangcc@gsta.com for your contribution) > =20 > draft-lee-v4v6tran-migration-guide-for-scenario-2 (Interested people = can contact the editors Yiu yiu_Lee@Cable.Comcast.com and Victor = victor.kuarsingh@rci.rogers.com for your contribution) > =20 > draft-jankiewicz-v4v6tran-annotated-bibliography (Interested people = can contact the editor Ed edward.jankiewicz@sri.com for your = contribution) > =20 > More is coming on the way...... > =20 > =20 > B. R. > Tina > http://tinatsou.weebly.com/index.html > _______________________________________________ > v4tov6transition mailing list > v4tov6transition@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v4tov6transition --Apple-Mail-593--268656405 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=GB2312 Thanks, Tina. Copying = v6ops.

On Aug 27, 2010, at 11:57 PM, Tina = TSOU wrote:

Hi = all,
There are I-Ds in the pipeline. They were discussed in 3 ad hoc = meetings in Maastricht. = The 3rd ad hoc meeting was the name of v4tov6transition Bar BoF. It was = clear for the people who participated in, mainly the people from . Fred suggested making = it more open. Here we go.

The = summary below might not be precise, so please correct me if = needed.

 
 yanggl@gsta.com and Can-can huangcc@gsta.com for your = contribution)
 
draft-lee-v4v6tran-use-case-na-cable (affiliation = Cable Labs, Rogers, Cable Labs, Cox, Interested people can contact the = editors Yiuyiu_Lee@Cable.Comcast.com and = Victor victor.kuarsingh@rci.rogers.com for = your contribution)
 
draft-li-v4v6tran-use-case (affiliation China Mobile, = Interested people can contact the editor Lian-Yuan lilianyuan@chinamobile.com ; = Qiong-Fang maqiongfang@chinamobile.com; and Gang chengang@chinamobile.com = ;for your contribution)
 
draft-carpenter-v4v6tran-framework-00 (Interested = people can contact the editor Brian brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com for = your contribution)
 
 yanggl@gsta.com and Can-can huangcc@gsta.com for your = contribution)
 
draft-lee-v4v6tran-migration-guide-for-scenario-2 = (Interested people can contact the editors Yiu yiu_Lee@Cable.Comcast.com and = Victor victor.kuarsingh@rci.rogers.com for = your contribution)
 
draft-jankiewicz-v4v6tran-annotated-bibliography (Interested = people can contact the editor Ed edward.jankiewicz@sri.com&nb= sp;for your contribution)
 
More is coming on the way......
 
 

= --Apple-Mail-593--268656405-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Sat Aug 28 14:24:55 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7BA3C3A681F for ; Sat, 28 Aug 2010 14:24:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.127 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.127 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.232, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, J_CHICKENPOX_13=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zPXXrEo9bndC for ; Sat, 28 Aug 2010 14:24:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3EAFD3A681E for ; Sat, 28 Aug 2010 14:24:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OpSna-00060k-LC for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Sat, 28 Aug 2010 21:18:50 +0000 Received: from [64.18.2.169] (helo=exprod7og108.obsmtp.com) by psg.com with smtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OpSnX-000605-Tz for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Sat, 28 Aug 2010 21:18:48 +0000 Received: from source ([66.129.224.36]) (using TLSv1) by exprod7ob108.postini.com ([64.18.6.12]) with SMTP ID DSNKTHl9M8PBKha9Uh2MjJxykaGe7kHLW1DL@postini.com; Sat, 28 Aug 2010 14:18:47 PDT Received: from p-emfe02-wf.jnpr.net (172.28.145.25) by P-EMHUB03-HQ.jnpr.net (172.24.192.37) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.2.254.0; Sat, 28 Aug 2010 14:11:46 -0700 Received: from EMBX01-WF.jnpr.net ([fe80::1914:3299:33d9:e43b]) by p-emfe02-wf.jnpr.net ([fe80::c126:c633:d2dc:8090%11]) with mapi; Sat, 28 Aug 2010 17:11:46 -0400 From: Ronald Bonica To: Fred Baker , huang cancan CC: IPv6 v6ops , Ron Bonica , "v4tov6transition@ietf.org" Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2010 17:11:45 -0400 Subject: RE: [v4tov6transition] Some opinions about establish a new WG Thread-Topic: [v4tov6transition] Some opinions about establish a new WG Thread-Index: ActF9hy5IDt3oRggRqWNxRFzASDhhAA/u+XA Message-ID: <13205C286662DE4387D9AF3AC30EF456B0151C78EF@EMBX01-WF.jnpr.net> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: Fred, I am monitoring the conversation, but have been a bit slow responding to em= ail. For the last two days I have been distracted, delivering both of my ki= ds to college.=20 Ron > -----Original Message----- > From: v4tov6transition-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:v4tov6transition- > bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Fred Baker > Sent: Friday, August 27, 2010 10:42 AM > To: huang cancan > Cc: IPv6 v6ops; Ron Bonica; v4tov6transition@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [v4tov6transition] Some opinions about establish a new WG >=20 > Copying my AD. He's on the list, but I know I monitor more closely > discussions I am copied on, and I suspect he does as well. >=20 > On Aug 27, 2010, at 6:51 AM, huang cancan wrote: >=20 > > - Do the working group's activities overlap with those of another > > working group? If so, it may still be appropriate to create > the > > working group, but this question must be considered carefully > by > > the Area Directors as subdividing efforts often dilutes the > > available technical expertise. > > //This question was also discussed in the side group. I only copy > them here. > > > > 1) V6ops has not implemented item 4 in its charter and that it is > better to split the work into two WGs, to spread the workload. > > > > " 4. Publish Informational or BCP RFCs that identify and analyze > solutions for deploying IPv6 within common network environments, such > as ISP Networks, Enterprise Networks, Unmanaged Networks (Home/Small > Office), and Cellular Networks. " >=20 > You no doubt went to http://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/v6ops/charter/ to > find the charter. May I request that you select "documents" on that > page or (equivalent) go to http://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/v6ops/ and > survey the RFCs output by the working group? It has gone to some > lengths to do this. >=20 > > 2)I see the following text in v6ops charter: > > > >> The main focus of the v6ops WG is to look at the immediate > deployment issues; more advanced stages of deployment and transition > are a lower priority. > > > > I want to work on "more advanced stages of transition" that is out of > scope for v6ops. Some operators would like to focus on operational > issues related to the final phases of transition of v4 networks to v6, > i.e. the protection of v4 applications that need to continue to be > operational for all users while the networks are gradually transitioned > from v4 to v6. >=20 > Let me put this in context. >=20 > When Kurtis and I took over the working group in 2004, there were quite > a number of people that really wanted to talk about their favorite cool > tool for helping people make the transition. There was discussion at > the time of a separate working group for the purpose, and in any event > v6ops was instructed to not build protocols and with respect to > transition tool, to only generate requirements. That work eventually > went to behave and softwire. You will hear me tell people with some > regularity to take a draft to a different working group due to charter > issues, and this will be the usual reason. >=20 > The continuation of IPv4 service during transition, what I call the > "coexistence phase", is at this point very near term transition issue, > and is the subject in part of >=20 > http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-v6ops-incremental-cgn > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-v6ops-incremental-cgn > "An Incremental Carrier-Grade NAT (CGN) for IPv6 Transition", Sheng > Jiang, Dayong Guo, Brian Carpenter, 18-Jun-10, > >=20 > which will go into working group last call on 12 September. I would > encourage the operators to read and comment on it. Frankly, the final > phases of transition will not be about "keeping IPv4 alive" as much as > "how best to turn it off". >=20 > In any event, it has been a while since we updated the charter; if the > charter itself is at issue, we should discuss that. You are correct > that the question is no longer, if it ever actually was actually, "how > to deploy IPv6". The current phase is "coexistence" more than > "deployment", and perhaps the charter needs to say that. > _______________________________________________ > v4tov6transition mailing list > v4tov6transition@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v4tov6transition From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Sat Aug 28 16:42:41 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B491A3A679F for ; Sat, 28 Aug 2010 16:42:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.079 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.079 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.408, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_EQ_AU=0.377, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4yL20AdyUBZJ for ; Sat, 28 Aug 2010 16:42:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 598493A681F for ; Sat, 28 Aug 2010 16:42:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OpUyu-000GsV-Dm for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Sat, 28 Aug 2010 23:38:40 +0000 Received: from [202.136.110.249] (helo=smtp3.adam.net.au) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OpUyr-000GsI-LD for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Sat, 28 Aug 2010 23:38:38 +0000 Received: from 219-90-190-92.ip.adam.com.au ([219.90.190.92] helo=opy.nosense.org) by smtp3.adam.net.au with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1OpUyk-0006YP-AJ; Sun, 29 Aug 2010 09:08:30 +0930 Received: from opy.nosense.org (localhost.localdomain [IPv6:::1]) by opy.nosense.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 766383B31E; Sun, 29 Aug 2010 09:04:35 +0930 (CST) Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2010 09:04:34 +0930 From: Mark Smith To: "Manfredi, Albert E" Cc: "v6ops@ops.ietf.org" , "ipv6@ietf.org" Subject: Re: ping-pong phenomenon with p2p links & /127 prefixes Message-ID: <20100829090434.64e1e660@opy.nosense.org> In-Reply-To: References: <20100823224736.74b0747f@opy.nosense.org> <20100823231654.59ee3502@opy.nosense.org> <20100823.172400.74676472.st haug@nethelp.no> <20100824064118.75effea7@opy.nosense.org> <20100824073727.4081f64f@opy.nosense.or g> <20100825183745.328aa00a@opy.nosense.org> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.7.6 (GTK+ 2.20.1; x86_64-unknown-linux-gnu) X-Location: Lower Mitcham, South Australia, 5062 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: Hi Bert, On Wed, 25 Aug 2010 14:44:31 -0500 "Manfredi, Albert E" wrote: > Mark Smith: > > > Possibly it will be surprising to a number of people on this list, but > > some of the ideas in IPv6 are over 30 years old, such as single, fixed > > size network and node portions, and using link layer > > addresses as layer > > 3 node addresses - > > > > "Address Mappings", Jonathan B. Postel, 2 May 1979 > > http://www.ietf.org/rfc/ien/ien91.txt > > Doesn't surprise me at all. > > I take it, your position is that if an address can have a 64-bit prefix and a 64-bit host ID, then all you should need or want is classful addressing. And only one class at that. Does that sum it up? > When it is possible, it is simpler to have a single sized node address, which also means the same sized prefix length. Simplicity benefits everybody - protocol developers, implementers, operators and end-users. In IPv4 it isn't possible anymore, and hasn't been since around 1981/82 (i.e. somewhere between rfc760 and rfc791), because there weren't enough addressing bits. Classes were a work around, and were the first of the "elegant hacks" used to overcome IPv4's limited address size as the scale of it's deployment started to exceed the original design assumptions. Fixed length subnets, then variable length subnets, then classless inter-domain routing were subsequent elegant hacks to get around these limitations.* With IPv6 we can have that simplicity back, because the address size constraint has been removed. We don't need to redeploy the complexities of IPv4 that we've become comfortable with - we've only become comfortable with them because we didn't have a choice. We're used to paying the price of that complexity, and don't notice it, because it was an essential cost of growing and operating the Internet. (* if you defined a protocol version change as occurring when the way packets are processed is changed at a fundamental level, e.g. address lookups, and software/firmware or hardware replacement needs to take place to facilitate that change, then each of these "elegant hacks" could have been a new version of IP - IPv6 might actually be IPv10 (allowing for IPv5 / Internet Stream Protocol)) > What's old is new again. We could almost revert back to RIPv1. > > I don't necessarily disagree, and I got that same message from others on the list in the past. And I also wouldn't suggest that prefixes shorter than 64 should be in heavy demand (except in assigning address blocks). It's just that the restriction seems unnecessary, especially given that /127s and /128s are already in use, that CIDR has been invented and everyone knows how it works, and also because the /64 restriction only matters for SLAAC. > I think IPv6 "CIDR" i.e. longest match rule across the whole 128 bits is really only insurance against having to perform a whole of Internet upgrade, similar to what had to happen when CIDR was introduced, should the chosen boundary between the network and interface id portions end up being incorrect. Its likely it won't be necessary to use, as all the address sizing calculations, e.g. RFC3177, RIR policies etc., are based on the assumption of 64 bit interface ids. I think that is a wise decision, however it is only insurance - something you use if the unexpected occurs. Regards, Mark. From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Sat Aug 28 20:38:22 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D6FE3A6973 for ; Sat, 28 Aug 2010 20:38:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.067 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.067 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.396, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_EQ_AU=0.377, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MmD6L-o+2wne for ; Sat, 28 Aug 2010 20:38:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81A3F3A6971 for ; Sat, 28 Aug 2010 20:36:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OpYbI-0008RN-SP for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Sun, 29 Aug 2010 03:30:33 +0000 Received: from [202.136.110.249] (helo=smtp3.adam.net.au) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OpYbF-0008R3-9I for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Sun, 29 Aug 2010 03:30:29 +0000 Received: from 219-90-190-92.ip.adam.com.au ([219.90.190.92] helo=opy.nosense.org) by smtp3.adam.net.au with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1OpYb7-0005ku-JD; Sun, 29 Aug 2010 13:00:21 +0930 Received: from opy.nosense.org (localhost.localdomain [IPv6:::1]) by opy.nosense.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A91E3B31E; Sun, 29 Aug 2010 12:56:27 +0930 (CST) Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2010 12:56:26 +0930 From: Mark Smith To: Christopher Morrow Cc: "Manfredi, Albert E" , "v6ops@ops.ietf.org" , "ipv6@ietf.org" Subject: Re: ping-pong phenomenon with p2p links & /127 prefixes Message-ID: <20100829125626.7983d3ff@opy.nosense.org> In-Reply-To: References: <20100823224736.74b0747f@opy.nosense.org> <20100823231654.59ee3502@opy.nosense.org> <20100824064118.75effea7@opy.nosense.org> <20100825183745.328aa00a@opy.nosense.org> <20100829090434.64e1e660@opy.nosense.org> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.7.6 (GTK+ 2.20.1; x86_64-unknown-linux-gnu) X-Location: Lower Mitcham, South Australia, 5062 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: On Sat, 28 Aug 2010 22:43:21 -0400 Christopher Morrow wrote: > On Sat, Aug 28, 2010 at 7:34 PM, Mark Smith > wrote: > > > I think IPv6 "CIDR" i.e. longest match rule across the whole 128 bits is > > really only insurance against having to perform a whole of Internet > > upgrade, similar to what had to happen when CIDR was introduced, should > > folk are already holding (internally) /128's for things, I suppose > they could have /64's, but that means dedicating a 'LAN' to some task > (anycast of a nameserver, for instance) when you really only want to > use a 'host' for that. > This is one of the issues. People are being unnecessarily precious about address space. What real benefit do they gain? It seems that their IPv4 "must conserve address space" mentality is so ingrained that they can't even conceive of anything else. That's what makes me think that they haven't experienced any other protocols that trade addressing bits for operational convenience. Of course they've probably used Ethernet, and never or rarely set MAC addresses, so they've already experienced that sort of operational convenience, but somehow don't realise that it can also exist at layer 3. > It means using a 'LAN' for each 'host' you want to anycast... or > losing some flexibility in your service management/offering. > > moving back to 'classful' addressing isn't a move forward, or not such > that it's worth the move with the additional overhead incurred. That's not what I'm advocating. If I was, I'd be advocating separate network and node fields in the IPv6 header - as IPX/XNS/Appletalk etc. implemented. > I > agree that making almost all 'LAN' segments a /64 is a fine plan, So why isn't it a fine plan for all links in a network? We can afford the address space. > some > folks may choose other boundaries and in those cases will not get RA > or other things, they may not need those things though. > A number of innovations are possible and have been developed in IPv6 because the single and soft boundary between the network and node portions at the 64 bit mark. These innovations would not have been possible if that soft boundary hadn't been chosen in the past. If that soft boundary is now eliminated, then what useful innovations won't be possible in the future? Maybe somebody will come up with an innovation that would be of real benefit on point-to-point links between routers, however it needs 64 bit identifiers. Yet if /127s are widely deployed, then that innovation may never be worth developing because it can't be widely deployed. It may even never be thought of, because people will become ingrained in "point-to-point" links are only /127s. One of my concerns about /127s is that it'll become the thin edge of the wedge for also eliminating the /64 boundary on LANs. Then we'll have spotty SLAAC support, different devices with different prefix lengths etc., - all the problems we've had with incorrect subnet masks in IPv4, as well as new ones like SLAAC not working. Fundamentally, people seem to be wanting to introduce constraints into IPv6 that seem to have no other reason to be other than "that's how we did it in IPv4". Yet there doesn't seem to be any questioning of why those methods had to be implemented in IPv4, and if the design of IPv6 eliminates those IPv4 constraints - and if we'd had a choice in IPv4, would we have accepted them in the first place. Regards, Mark. From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Sat Aug 28 21:21:54 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 564113A6784 for ; Sat, 28 Aug 2010 21:21:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.419 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.419 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.961, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_EQ_AU=0.377, RDNS_NONE=0.1, SARE_OBFU_MILLIONS=1.213] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8Rjt3WSStmqn for ; Sat, 28 Aug 2010 21:21:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA8E83A6783 for ; Sat, 28 Aug 2010 21:21:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OpZNI-000CCm-J1 for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Sun, 29 Aug 2010 04:20:08 +0000 Received: from [202.136.110.249] (helo=smtp3.adam.net.au) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OpZNF-000CC5-8B for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Sun, 29 Aug 2010 04:20:05 +0000 Received: from 219-90-190-92.ip.adam.com.au ([219.90.190.92] helo=opy.nosense.org) by smtp3.adam.net.au with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1OpZN6-0007DI-7g; Sun, 29 Aug 2010 13:49:56 +0930 Received: from opy.nosense.org (localhost.localdomain [IPv6:::1]) by opy.nosense.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 584C43B31E; Sun, 29 Aug 2010 13:46:02 +0930 (CST) Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2010 13:46:02 +0930 From: Mark Smith To: Christopher Morrow Cc: "Manfredi, Albert E" , "v6ops@ops.ietf.org" , "ipv6@ietf.org" Subject: Re: ping-pong phenomenon with p2p links & /127 prefixes Message-ID: <20100829134602.0218bd6a@opy.nosense.org> In-Reply-To: References: <20100823224736.74b0747f@opy.nosense.org> <20100823231654.59ee3502@opy.nosense.org> <20100824064118.75effea7@opy.nosense.org> <20100825183745.328aa00a@opy.nosense.org> <20100829090434.64e1e660@opy.nosense.org> <20100829125626.7983d3ff@opy.nosense.org> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.7.6 (GTK+ 2.20.1; x86_64-unknown-linux-gnu) X-Location: Lower Mitcham, South Australia, 5062 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: I don't agree with any of your points I'm afraid, and I don't think they'd stand up to any thorough analysis (e.g. /128s verses /64s don't have any significant impact on HD ratios when an ISP gets a _minimum_ of a /32 or 4 billion /64s) However, I don't think this conversation is making any progress. People do what they want to do, including sometimes making life harder for themselves than it needs to be. C'est la vie. On Sat, 28 Aug 2010 23:56:07 -0400 Christopher Morrow wrote: > On Sat, Aug 28, 2010 at 11:26 PM, Mark Smith > wrote: > > On Sat, 28 Aug 2010 22:43:21 -0400 > > Christopher Morrow wrote: > > > >> On Sat, Aug 28, 2010 at 7:34 PM, Mark Smith > >> wrote: > >> > >> > I think IPv6 "CIDR" i.e. longest match rule across the whole 128 bits is > >> > really only insurance against having to perform a whole of Internet > >> > upgrade, similar to what had to happen when CIDR was introduced, should > >> > >> folk are already holding (internally) /128's for things, I suppose > >> they could have /64's, but that means dedicating a 'LAN' to some task > >> (anycast of a nameserver, for instance) when you really only want to > >> use a 'host' for that. > >> > > > > This is one of the issues. People are being unnecessarily precious about > > address space. What real benefit do they gain? It seems that their > > not precious with address space, precious with opex costs... > > if you put each service address on it's own /64 that may be fine for > some folks but will run afoul of hd-ratio and other measures of how > 'full' your use of the address space you'd been allocated may be. > > if you put multiple service-addrs on a single /64 you have to > maintenance all of these service-addrs at the same time or suffer > spotty service coverage. > > If you value resilient services (dns and ntp for two simple examples) > spotty coverage isn't really an option. > > >> I > >> agree that making almost all 'LAN' segments a /64 is a fine plan, > > > > So why isn't it a fine plan for all links in a network? We can afford > > the address space. > > not every link needs it and there are some pretty scary implications > of using /64's on some link types (ptp links, for the /127 example > here), plus complexity and headache that's just not necessary when you > aim to put the 2 ends of the ptp link on well known (to you) and well > defined addresses. SLAAC is just un-useful in this case, RA and ND and > other functions are just a waste of CPU time I want to be used making > RIB/FIB updates go faster. > > > > >> some > >> folks may choose other boundaries and in those cases will not get RA > >> or other things, they may not need those things though. > >> > > > > A number of innovations are possible and have been developed in IPv6 > > because the single and soft boundary between the network and node > > portions at the 64 bit mark. These innovations would not have been > > possible if that soft boundary hadn't been chosen in the past. If that > > soft boundary is now eliminated, then what useful innovations won't be > > possible in the future? Maybe somebody will come up with an innovation > > that would be of real benefit on point-to-point links between routers, > > maybe, though we've been using the same (essentially) technology for > this for ~30 years and ... the largest change has been /30 -> /31 > migrations. this part of the network isn't where 'innovation' is > supposed to happen. the edge can do that just fine... operating a > cheap (very, very cheap), fast (very, very fast) and simple core is > the goal. 'innovation' in the core isn't a super good plan for the 2 > other parts (cheap/fast). > > Today, and in the past number of years, the operational reality and > migration of the industry has been to fast, cheap core wherever > possible. Costs added to operations or capital in the core just don't > happen. Ask VZB/UUNET how many 'network engineers' are doing 'network > engineering' for their global public ip backbone today? far fewer than > in years past. I suspect you'll see the same story at Level3, ATT, > Comcast, Telia, NTT etc... > > > however it needs 64 bit identifiers. Yet if /127s are widely deployed, > > then that innovation may never be worth developing because it can't be > > widely deployed. It may even never be thought of, because people will > > core links are, by numbers, I imagine far fewer than edge links... > Enterprises make up the vast majority of edge network user cases, > equipment buys, etc. Heck, Comcast has ~20m end users, that's got to > be a few orders of magnitude more than their core links, right? :) > > > become ingrained in "point-to-point" links are only /127s. > > they are. > > > One of my concerns about /127s is that it'll become the thin edge of > > the wedge for also eliminating the /64 boundary on LANs. Then we'll > > for LANs, SLAAC works fine for getting addresses and default-gw pushed > out. Until ~3 years ago (thanks to thaler, nartens, et-al for the > change then) it was useless for pretty much everything else :( > > I don't think folks really want to change LAN architecture... it does > seem to 'just work'. > > > have spotty SLAAC support, different devices with different prefix > > lengths etc., - all the problems we've had with incorrect subnet masks > > in IPv4, as well as new ones like SLAAC not working. > > > > Fundamentally, people seem to be wanting to introduce constraints into > > IPv6 that seem to have no other reason to be other than "that's how we > > did it in IPv4". Yet there doesn't seem to be any questioning of why > > "thats how our operations model works today, that's where the money is > driving this train, that's what operations folks are asking for." > > > those methods had to be implemented in IPv4, and if the design of IPv6 > > eliminates those IPv4 constraints - and if we'd had a choice in IPv4, > > would we have accepted them in the first place. > > I do think folks asked these questions, they did so sometime in the > past... they now have implemented a bunch of stuff and want to keep > operating their networks in the manner they are today. Adding more > complications isn't the right direction here. > > Understanding that 10+ years ago when ipv6 was designed the world was > a very different place is what we all need to keep in mind. Today > billiions (at least) of dollars depend on a reliable, scalable, useful > network. screwing with that is not in anyone's best interest. I think > what the authors are trying to do here is to document what they've got > working, why it's working that way and push that forward (since there > seems to be a decent amount of agreement among folks that operate > networks, worldwide) as an acceptable method. > > -chris From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Sat Aug 28 23:13:12 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A13DF3A67D6 for ; Sat, 28 Aug 2010 23:13:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -107.482 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-107.482 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-2.037, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, J_CHICKENPOX_13=0.6, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, RDNS_NONE=0.1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bpnWvG1I8kDK for ; Sat, 28 Aug 2010 23:13:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21C573A67BE for ; Sat, 28 Aug 2010 23:13:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Opb4u-000KfA-Hz for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Sun, 29 Aug 2010 06:09:16 +0000 Received: from [171.68.10.87] (helo=sj-iport-5.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Opb4r-000Key-Fz for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Sun, 29 Aug 2010 06:09:13 +0000 Authentication-Results: sj-iport-5.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Av0EADGWeUyrR7Ht/2dsb2JhbACDF51GcZ1XiWcIkGCBHoMidwSEHxyFTg X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.56,286,1280707200"; d="scan'208";a="246746139" Received: from sj-core-1.cisco.com ([171.71.177.237]) by sj-iport-5.cisco.com with ESMTP; 29 Aug 2010 06:09:12 +0000 Received: from stealth-10-32-244-222.cisco.com (stealth-10-32-244-222.cisco.com [10.32.244.222]) by sj-core-1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o7T694ik004755; Sun, 29 Aug 2010 06:09:06 GMT Received: from [127.0.0.1] by stealth-10-32-244-222.cisco.com (PGP Universal service); Sat, 28 Aug 2010 23:09:12 -0700 X-PGP-Universal: processed; by stealth-10-32-244-222.cisco.com on Sat, 28 Aug 2010 23:09:12 -0700 Subject: Re: [v4tov6transition] draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1081) From: Fred Baker In-Reply-To: <002a01cb4712$d9f72fb0$8de58f10$@com> Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2010 23:08:58 -0700 Cc: "Yiu L. Lee" , huang cancan , IPv6 v6ops , v4tov6transition@ietf.org, Kurt Erik Lindqvist , Behave WG Message-Id: References: <002a01cb4712$d9f72fb0$8de58f10$@com> To: YangGL X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1081) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=GB2312 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: May I ask a question? When you say you tested it with NAT64, what did you test with? There are two modes for translation between IPv4 and IPv6. The stateful = mode, described in draft-ietf-behave-v6v4-xlate-stateful, is essentially = identical in function to IPv4/IPv4 NAT, and allows IPv6 systems to = connect to IPv4 systems but not the reverse. The stateless mode, = described in draft-ietf-behave-v6v4-xlate, allows connections to be = initiated in either direction. The downside of the stateless mode is = that it requires a direct mapping between an IPv4 and an IPv6 address. = The are two parts of a common framework, use the same addressing plan, = and the same DNS extension. Are you running both modes, or only the stateful mode? If you are only = running the stateful mode, that what you're reporting is what we have = been saying for some time it will behave like. http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-behave-address-format http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-behave-address-format "IPv6 Addressing of IPv4/IPv6 Translators", Congxiao Bao, Christian Huitema, Marcelo Bagnulo, Mohammed Boucadair, Xing Li, 15-Aug-10, http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-behave-dns64 http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-behave-dns64 "DNS64: DNS extensions for Network Address Translation from IPv6 = Clients to IPv4 Servers", Marcelo Bagnulo, Andrew Sullivan, Philip Matthews, Iljitsch van Beijnum, 5-Jul-10, http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-behave-v6v4-framework http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-behave-v6v4-framework "Framework for IPv4/IPv6 Translation", Fred Baker, Xing Li, Congxiao Bao, Kevin Yin, 17-Aug-10, http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-behave-v6v4-xlate http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-behave-v6v4-xlate "IP/ICMP Translation Algorithm", Xing Li, Congxiao Bao, Fred Baker, 22-Aug-10, http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-behave-v6v4-xlate-stateful http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-behave-v6v4-xlate-stateful "Stateful NAT64: Network Address and Protocol Translation from IPv6 Clients to IPv4 Servers", Marcelo Bagnulo, Philip Matthews, Iljitsch = van Beijnum, 12-Jul-10, On Aug 28, 2010, at 5:40 PM, YangGL wrote: > Tests in my lab have proved that many popular applications cannot work = on IPv6-only network with NAT64, such as IM, P2P, games, and part of = video. WEB and part of mail (Outlook and Outlook express) are the only = applications we can find working properly with NAT64. But there are more = than 50% traffic is P2P, WEB traffic is less than 20% on CT=A1=AFs = network. I think it is not a good news to NAT64. > Tests also prove that almost all of popular applications on Internet = can work on IPv4-only network with single level and double level NAT44, = such as WEB, mail, IM, P2P, games, video and etc. > NAT64 and NAT44 are similar in theory. But what make the difference of = application support? I think it should be timing. NAT44 appears ten = years ago. There are a few applications on internet at that time. = Subsequent applications, such as IM, P2P, were designed to work with = NAT44. NAT64 come after this popular applications, situation is totally = different. If NAT64 is deployed on commercial network now, CT=A1=AFs = network traffic will cut down 70% immediately, and most applications = will release a new version for IPv6-only or NAT64 in the next one year. = But it is not a good idea to providers. > =20 > Best regards, > Yang Guoliang > =20 > =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: v4tov6transition-bounces@ietf.org = [mailto:v4tov6transition-bounces@ietf.org] =B4=FA=B1=ED Yiu L. Lee > =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2010=C4=EA8=D4=C225=C8=D5 22:05 > =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: huang cancan > =B3=AD=CB=CD: Kurt Erik Lindqvist; IPv6 v6ops; = v4tov6transition@ietf.org > =D6=F7=CC=E2: Re: [v4tov6transition] = draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC > =20 > =46rom user=A1=AFs perspective, do they care IPv4 or IPv6? Most = don=A1=AFt. For example: a casual web user wants to access his/her = favorite IPv4-only website. If his web client and PC support IPv6 and on = an IPv6-only network with NAT64, the web traffic will go through the NAT = once. If his web client and PC support IPv4-only on an IPv4 network with = NAT444, the web traffic will go through the NAT twice. In the end, = he/she still gets the same content. =46rom this perspective, both = experience =A1=B0could be=A1=B1 very similar.=20 >=20 > However, this use case is rather limited and not applicable to many = applications. This is why I said =A1=B0could be=A1=B1. Also, both = Cameron and I agree that this is easier to implement IPv6-only on mobile = network than on fixed network because mobile operators have more control = over the devices and apps. IMHO, it will take longer time for fixed = network operators to support NAT64 only solution in the network. >=20 >=20 > On 8/25/10 9:41 AM, "huang cancan" wrote: >=20 > well, I mean: why customer experience of IPv4-only + NAT444 could be = the same as IPv6-only + NAT64? >=20 > On Wed, Aug 25, 2010 at 9:24 PM, Yiu L. Lee = wrote: > In order to deploy IPv6-only + NAT64, the client and network must talk = IPv6. It also requires DNS64. These requirements are not needed for = IPv4-only + NAT444. =46rom the deployment point of view, they are very = different technologies.=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > On 8/25/10 7:13 AM, "huang cancan" > wrote: >=20 > hi,Yiu: > As you mentioned below: > > All I am saying is the customer > > experience of IPv4-only + NAT444 could be the same as IPv6-only + = NAT64, but > > the technologies and plan to offer these service are very different. > =20 > Do you have any test data to support this conclusion? > =20 > Can-can Huang >=20 >=20 > On Sat, Aug 21, 2010 at 7:37 AM, Yiu L. Lee > wrote: >=20 > > Agreed. The 2x cost is really just the packet core ... which is of > > course a lot of money to double for no tangible benefit ..... talk > > about no business case .... And, still have numbering issues, = customer > > experience is the same as IPv4-only + NAT44 and approximately the = same > > as IPv6-only + NAT64 > > > Life cycle of mobile equipments could be every 2-3 years, but life = cycle of > consumer electronics could be 5+ years. Consider many large TVs with > Internet service selling today are still running IPv4-only, fixed line > operators must prepare to support them in foreseeable future. >=20 > That said, I am not saying an operator must build a dual-stack core = network, > there are technologies such as DS-lite and Softwire Mesh available to = run a > pure IPv6 core network with dual-stack edge. All I am saying is the = customer > experience of IPv4-only + NAT444 could be the same as IPv6-only + = NAT64, but > the technologies and plan to offer these service are very different. >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > v4tov6transition mailing list > v4tov6transition@ietf.org =20 > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v4tov6transition > =20 >=20 > =20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > v4tov6transition mailing list > v4tov6transition@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v4tov6transition From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Sat Aug 28 23:23:23 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 849F43A67B4 for ; Sat, 28 Aug 2010 23:23:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.621 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.621 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.775, BAYES_00=-2.599, MIME_BASE64_TEXT=1.753] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aWgiluVv3jRv for ; Sat, 28 Aug 2010 23:23:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A34753A67B7 for ; Sat, 28 Aug 2010 23:23:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OpbHd-000Lm4-DC for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Sun, 29 Aug 2010 06:22:25 +0000 Received: from [2001:418:1::40] (helo=ran.psg.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OpbHb-000Llo-5W for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Sun, 29 Aug 2010 06:22:23 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=rmac.psg.com.psg.com) by ran.psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OpbHa-000OS2-9S; Sun, 29 Aug 2010 06:22:22 +0000 Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2010 15:22:21 +0900 Message-ID: From: Randy Bush To: YangGL Cc: IPv6 v6ops Subject: Re: [v4tov6transition] draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC In-Reply-To: References: <002a01cb4712$d9f72fb0$8de58f10$@com> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 (Almost Unreal) Emacs/22.3 Mule/5.0 (SAKAKI) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI 1.14.6 - "Maruoka") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=GB2312 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: WyBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3RzIHRyaW1tZWQgXQ0KDQo+IE9uIEF1ZyAyOCwgMjAxMCwgYXQgNTo0MCBQ TSwgWWFuZ0dMIHdyb3RlOg0KPj4gVGVzdHMgaW4gbXkgbGFiIGhhdmUgcHJvdmVkIHRoYXQgbWFu eSBwb3B1bGFyIGFwcGxpY2F0aW9ucyBjYW5ub3QNCj4+IHdvcmsgb24gSVB2Ni1vbmx5IG5ldHdv cmsgd2l0aCBOQVQ2NCwgc3VjaCBhcyBJTSwgUDJQLCBnYW1lcywgYW5kDQo+PiBwYXJ0IG9mIHZp ZGVvLiBXRUIgYW5kIHBhcnQgb2YgbWFpbCAoT3V0bG9vayBhbmQgT3V0bG9vayBleHByZXNzKSBh cmUNCj4+IHRoZSBvbmx5IGFwcGxpY2F0aW9ucyB3ZSBjYW4gZmluZCB3b3JraW5nIHByb3Blcmx5 IHdpdGggTkFUNjQuIEJ1dA0KPj4gdGhlcmUgYXJlIG1vcmUgdGhhbiA1MCUgdHJhZmZpYyBpcyBQ MlAsIFdFQiB0cmFmZmljIGlzIGxlc3MgdGhhbiAyMCUNCj4+IG9uIENUoa9zIG5ldHdvcmsuIEkg dGhpbmsgaXQgaXMgbm90IGEgZ29vZCBuZXdzIHRvIE5BVDY0Lg0KDQpjYW4geW91IHBsZWFzZSBl eHBsYWluIHRoZSBuYW5vZywgbWVub2csIGFwcmljb3QsIC4uLiBleHBlcmltZW50cz8gIHdlcmUN CnRoZWlyIGRydWdzIGluIHRoZSBkcmlua2luZyB3YXRlcj8NCg0KcmFuZHk= From edunydigoj4534@comcast.net Sun Aug 29 04:38:03 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52F433A67FC for ; Sun, 29 Aug 2010 04:38:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -35.949 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-35.949 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4DyEiAuJcC9t for ; Sun, 29 Aug 2010 04:38:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from comcast.net (c-67-161-171-105.hsd1.ca.comcast.net [67.161.171.105]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 103EF3A67F1 for ; Sun, 29 Aug 2010 04:38:01 -0700 (PDT) From: "TopPfizer's Products" To: v6ops-archive@ietf.org Subject: Hey v6ops-archive 80% OFF. of Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2010 04:37:56 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-Id: <20100829113801.103EF3A67F1@core3.amsl.com> Newsletter
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An observant traveller in the South in 1865 said that in his belief seven-tenths of all persons above the age of twelve years, both male and female, used tobacco in some form.
The Chronicle of Henry of Livonia mentions Tharapita as the superior god of Oeselians (inhabitants of Saaremaa island), also well known to Vironian tribes in northern Estonia.
The Estonian National Defence Policy aim is to guarantee the preservation of the independence and sovereignty of the state, the integrity of its land, territorial waters, airspace and its constitutional order.
Cimmerians and other pastoralists roamed through the area by 1000 BCE.
Handbook to Life in the Ancient Mayan World.
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The Rogers Plan, as it has come to be known, reflected the German research university model, emphasizing an independent faculty engaged in research as well as instruction oriented around seminars and laboratories.
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The duration of abstinence increased from an average of 32 days prior to treatment to 217 days during treatment.
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These groups share the presence of complex jaws, from which they are called the Gnathifera.
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The current birth rate in Ukraine is 9.
For example, it is safe to argue that most people would not consider an anvil, a brake drum (the circular hub which houses the brake on the wheel of a motor vehicle), or a fifty-five gallon oil barrel to be musical instruments, yet these objects are used regularly by composers and percussionists of modern music.
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 From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Sun Aug 29 05:06:25 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02E993A6808 for ; Sun, 29 Aug 2010 05:06:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -110.194 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-110.194 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.404, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TzwES6-9IaTw for ; Sun, 29 Aug 2010 05:06:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E40283A6811 for ; Sun, 29 Aug 2010 05:06:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OpgYp-000OzO-Bs for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Sun, 29 Aug 2010 12:00:31 +0000 Received: from sj-iport-3.cisco.com ([171.71.176.72]) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OpgYi-000OwK-S9 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Sun, 29 Aug 2010 12:00:25 +0000 Authentication-Results: sj-iport-3.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AggGABfpeUyrRN+J/2dsb2JhbACBQ5FhjSZxnQaaY4U3BIQ7hU4 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.56,286,1280707200"; d="scan'208,217";a="235901397" Received: from sj-core-3.cisco.com ([171.68.223.137]) by sj-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP; 29 Aug 2010 12:00:24 +0000 Received: from stealth-10-32-244-222.cisco.com (stealth-10-32-244-222.cisco.com [10.32.244.222]) by sj-core-3.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o7TC0FMx017213; Sun, 29 Aug 2010 12:00:17 GMT Received: from [127.0.0.1] by stealth-10-32-244-222.cisco.com (PGP Universal service); Sun, 29 Aug 2010 05:00:23 -0700 X-PGP-Universal: processed; by stealth-10-32-244-222.cisco.com on Sun, 29 Aug 2010 05:00:23 -0700 From: Fred Baker Subject: draft-ietf-v6ops-tunnel-security WGLC Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2010 05:00:08 -0700 Message-Id: <1AB78814-4BDA-41A0-A60E-90F9EA0E3DFD@cisco.com> Cc: v6ops-chairs@tools.ietf.org, Ron Bonica To: v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1081) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1081) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-7--166669632 Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: --Apple-Mail-7--166669632 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii This is to initiate a two week working group last call of = draft-ietf-v6ops-tunnel-security. Please read it now. If you find nits = (spelling errors, minor We are looking specifically for comments on the importance of the = document as well as its content. If you have read the document and = believe it to be of operational utility, that is also an important = comment to make.= --Apple-Mail-7--166669632 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii This is to initiate a two week working = group last call of draft-ietf-v6ops-tunnel-security. Please read it = now. If you find nits (spelling errors, minor

We are = looking specifically for comments on the importance of the document as = well as its content. If you have read the document and believe it to be = of operational utility, that is also an important comment to = make.
= --Apple-Mail-7--166669632-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Sun Aug 29 10:59:39 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E1F33A682D for ; Sun, 29 Aug 2010 10:59:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.926 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.926 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.227, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_13=0.6, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SriYEcXK6ih9 for ; Sun, 29 Aug 2010 10:59:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2951F3A684D for ; Sun, 29 Aug 2010 10:59:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Opm4i-0007yi-JB for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Sun, 29 Aug 2010 17:53:48 +0000 Received: from nagasaki.bogus.com ([2001:418:1::81]) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Opm4c-0007yD-Cv; Sun, 29 Aug 2010 17:53:42 +0000 Received: from joelja-mac.lan (c-98-234-104-156.hsd1.ca.comcast.net [98.234.104.156]) (authenticated bits=0) by nagasaki.bogus.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id o7THrYo9049270 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Sun, 29 Aug 2010 17:53:35 GMT (envelope-from joelja@bogus.com) Message-ID: <4C7A9E9E.8060205@bogus.com> Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2010 10:53:34 -0700 From: Joel Jaeggli User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10.6; en-US; rv:1.9.2.8) Gecko/20100802 Lightning/1.0b2 Thunderbird/3.1.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?R=E9mi_Despr=E9s?= CC: Randy Bush , v4tov6transition@ietf.org, IPv6 v6ops , joanthan Peng Subject: Re: [v4tov6transition] Some opinions about establish a new WG References: <32807B28-C3C0-47AC-9916-3C9048041F94@free.fr> <08792D62-872C-4034-8000-8D22A03733F2@free.fr> In-Reply-To: <08792D62-872C-4034-8000-8D22A03733F2@free.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.2 (nagasaki.bogus.com [147.28.0.81]); Sun, 29 Aug 2010 17:53:36 +0000 (UTC) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: On 8/27/10 11:00 PM, Rémi Després wrote: > > Le 27 août 2010 à 23:52, Randy Bush a écrit : > >>> If v6ops isn't the place to do this work, and write consensus >>> answers to ALL questions that people involved in IPv6 deployments >>> may ask >> >> then why the heck would v6ops exist? > > Whether v6ops is the place not only for OAM questions, but ALSO for > customer and product-vendor considerations, is IMHO still unclear. > Making official where the work on a comprehensive and easily readable > FAQ-document may start would be welcome. I'll just leave items 1 and 4 from the v6ops charter here: 1. Solicit input from network operators and users to identify operational issues with the IPv4/IPv6 Internet, and determine solutions or workarounds to those issues. These issues will be documented in Informational or BCP RFCs, or in Internet-Drafts. This work should primarily be conducted by those areas and WGs which are responsible and best fit to analyze these problems, but v6ops may also cooperate in focusing such work. 4. Publish Informational or BCP RFCs that identify and analyze solutions for deploying IPv6 within common network environments, such as ISP Networks, Enterprise Networks, Unmanaged Networks (Home/Small Office), and Cellular Networks. Regarding a comprehensive FAQ I'm not an encyclopedist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Encyclop%C3%A9die) but I have some experience with shepherding large documents through the ietf, and I will say that large interdependant document series can be challenging to get through the process in a timely fashion, get proper review on and or build consenus for. and thus I tend to favor dsicrete documents. Randy and Lucy built a lovely wiki for the purpose of generating a faq something like 2 years ago, which had more than few contributors from this community. there are limits as to the utility of a faq without regular updates. > RD > > > >> >> randy > > > > From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Sun Aug 29 18:18:49 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7ED063A659B for ; Sun, 29 Aug 2010 18:18:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.16 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.16 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.162, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_13=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mhsrRg22KdHT for ; Sun, 29 Aug 2010 18:18:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2907A3A63C9 for ; Sun, 29 Aug 2010 18:18:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Opsuo-0003xm-B7 for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Mon, 30 Aug 2010 01:12:02 +0000 Received: from exprod7og106.obsmtp.com ([64.18.2.165]) by psg.com with smtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Opsuh-0003vG-3L for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 30 Aug 2010 01:11:55 +0000 Received: from source ([66.129.224.36]) (using TLSv1) by exprod7ob106.postini.com ([64.18.6.12]) with SMTP ID DSNKTHsFVz9Mw7nFS5ptq6qPIvv3Ic6PB914@postini.com; Sun, 29 Aug 2010 18:11:55 PDT Received: from p-emfe02-wf.jnpr.net (172.28.145.25) by P-EMHUB01-HQ.jnpr.net (172.24.192.35) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.2.254.0; Sun, 29 Aug 2010 17:55:54 -0700 Received: from EMBX01-WF.jnpr.net ([fe80::1914:3299:33d9:e43b]) by p-emfe02-wf.jnpr.net ([fe80::c126:c633:d2dc:8090%11]) with mapi; Sun, 29 Aug 2010 20:55:53 -0400 From: Ronald Bonica To: Tina TSOU , joanthan Peng , "v4tov6transition@ietf.org" , IPv6 v6ops Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2010 20:55:52 -0400 Subject: RE: [v4tov6transition] Some opinions about establish a new WG Thread-Topic: [v4tov6transition] Some opinions about establish a new WG Thread-Index: ActF0r6Rfpp+EbHYRqmJTi6FDeFzIwBRiiJw Message-ID: <13205C286662DE4387D9AF3AC30EF456B01618FF3F@EMBX01-WF.jnpr.net> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_13205C286662DE4387D9AF3AC30EF456B01618FF3FEMBX01WFjnprn_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: --_000_13205C286662DE4387D9AF3AC30EF456B01618FF3FEMBX01WFjnprn_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Tina, It appears that there are two distinct issues being debated here. These are= : - Is there interesting work to be done? - Do we need a new WG in which to do this work? The IETF has procedures to address both questions. In order to determine th= e answer to the first question, the DT should submit its problem statement,= framework and (possibly) an annotated bibliography to the v6ops wg. They a= re clearly within the charter of the v6ops and the v6ops chairs have indica= ted a willingness to entertain these drafts. If the wg adopts and progresse= s this drafts, the framework will be set for subsequent drafts. At this time, I don't see any need for a new WG. The operational expertise = that we need to review these documents lives in v6 ops, and if we were to s= pin off an new working group, it would probably be populated by the same pe= ople who populate v6ops today. However, I will keep a eye on this situation= to see if it changes. = Your friendly AD, = Ron --_000_13205C286662DE4387D9AF3AC30EF456B01618FF3FEMBX01WFjnprn_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 

Tina,

 

It appears that there are two distinct issues being debated here. These are:

 

-&nb= sp;         Is there interesting work to be done?

-&nb= sp;         Do we need a new WG in which to do this work?

 

The IETF has procedures to address both questions. In order = to determine the answer to the first question, the DT should submit its proble= m statement, framework and (possibly) an annotated bibliography to the v6ops = wg. They are clearly within the charter of the v6ops and the v6ops chairs have indicated a willingness to entertain these drafts. If the wg adopts and progresses this drafts, the framework will be set for subsequent drafts.

 

At this time, I don’t see any need for a new WG. The operational expertise that we need to review these documents lives in v6 op= s, and if we were to spin off an new working group, it would probably be popul= ated by the same people who populate v6ops today. However, I will keep a eye on = this situation to see if it changes.

 

          =             &nb= sp;            =             &nb= sp;            =             &nb= sp;            =     Your friendly AD,

          =             &nb= sp;            =             &nb= sp;            =                  &nb= sp;            =    Ron

--_000_13205C286662DE4387D9AF3AC30EF456B01618FF3FEMBX01WFjnprn_-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Aug 30 01:25:18 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC5953A688D for ; Mon, 30 Aug 2010 01:25:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.13 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.13 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.640, BAYES_20=-0.74, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, J_CHICKENPOX_13=0.6, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zjQLEOWL5j5W for ; Mon, 30 Aug 2010 01:25:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 792C73A6835 for ; Mon, 30 Aug 2010 01:25:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Opzak-0000WP-Kn for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Mon, 30 Aug 2010 08:19:46 +0000 Received: from smtp22.services.sfr.fr ([93.17.128.11]) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Opzad-0000Vg-Qu for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 30 Aug 2010 08:19:40 +0000 Received: from filter.sfr.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by msfrf2222.sfr.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 95D427000091; Mon, 30 Aug 2010 10:19:37 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.0.20] (per92-10-88-166-221-144.fbx.proxad.net [88.166.221.144]) by msfrf2222.sfr.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id A66F77000090; Mon, 30 Aug 2010 10:19:36 +0200 (CEST) X-SFR-UUID: 20100830081936681.A66F77000090@msfrf2222.sfr.fr Subject: Re: [v4tov6transition] Some opinions about establish a new WG Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1081) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?R=E9mi_Despr=E9s?= In-Reply-To: <4C7A9E9E.8060205@bogus.com> Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2010 10:19:35 +0200 Cc: Randy Bush , v4tov6transition@ietf.org, IPv6 v6ops , joanthan Peng Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <1AD50821-64CD-48D5-834E-17CF2007DA60@free.fr> References: <32807B28-C3C0-47AC-9916-3C9048041F94@free.fr> <08792D62-872C-4034-8000-8D22A03733F2@free.fr> <4C7A9E9E.8060205@bogus.com> To: Joel Jaeggli X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1081) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: Hi Joel, Thanks for your reaction, Further comments below. =20 Le 29 ao=FBt 2010 =E0 19:53, Joel Jaeggli a =E9crit : > On 8/27/10 11:00 PM, R=E9mi Despr=E9s wrote: >>=20 >> Le 27 ao=FBt 2010 =E0 23:52, Randy Bush a =E9crit : >>=20 >>>> If v6ops isn't the place to do this work, and write consensus >>>> answers to ALL questions that people involved in IPv6 deployments >>>> may ask >>>=20 >>> then why the heck would v6ops exist? >>=20 >> Whether v6ops is the place not only for OAM questions, but ALSO for >> customer and product-vendor considerations, is IMHO still unclear.=20 >> Making official where the work on a comprehensive and easily readable >> FAQ-document may start would be welcome. >=20 > I'll just leave items 1 and 4 from the v6ops charter here: >=20 > 1. Solicit input from network operators and users to identify > operational issues with the IPv4/IPv6 Internet, and > determine solutions or workarounds to those issues. These issues > will be documented in Informational or BCP RFCs, or in > Internet-Drafts. Limited to "Operational issues". This doesn't include, in my understanding, questions like "Are there reasons for users to ask for IPv6, in addition to IPv4, if = their providers continues to offer IPv4 (be it across cascades of NATs? = If yes, what are these reasons?" "What are the security implications for a user of e-mail and of the web, = with one of the main OSes, if it has IPv6 enabled?"=20 Permitting v6ops, or a new group, to provide simple answers to such = questions would IMHO facilitate IPv6 deployment. =20 > This work should primarily be conducted by those areas and WGs > which are responsible and best fit to analyze these problems, but > v6ops may also cooperate in focusing such work. > 4. Publish Informational or BCP RFCs that identify and analyze > solutions > for deploying IPv6 within common network environments, such as > ISP Networks, Enterprise Networks, Unmanaged Networks (Home/Small > Office), and Cellular Networks. >=20 > Regarding a comprehensive FAQ >=20 > I'm not an encyclopedist Neither am I. I just noted that, on many subjects, FAQ answers are very convenient. > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Encyclop%C3%A9die) >=20 > but I have some experience with shepherding large documents through = the > ietf, and I will say that large interdependant document series can be > challenging to get through the process in a timely fashion, get proper > review on and or build consenus for. and thus I tend to favor dsicrete > documents. >=20 > Randy and Lucy built a lovely wiki for the purpose of generating a faq > something like 2 years ago, which had more than few contributors from > this community. > there are limits as to the utility of a faq without > regular updates. Same view here. One update per year, for example, could be a reasonable target. A reader-friendly way to number successive versions shouldn't be = difficult to adopt (RFC 99nnnn for version nnnn, or RFCxxxx-nnnn, are = examples of what could be done if there is the will). A different production and approval procedure than that of other RFCs = isn't needed. Regards, RD =20 >=20 >> RD >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>>=20 >>> randy >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >=20 From ogyanu2872@comcast.net Mon Aug 30 04:57:40 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0000F3A69A9 for ; Mon, 30 Aug 2010 04:57:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -57.16 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-57.16 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yqMa03m37-X8 for ; Mon, 30 Aug 2010 04:57:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from comcast.net (c-98-249-249-214.hsd1.fl.comcast.net [98.249.249.214]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E9F43A69AA for ; Mon, 30 Aug 2010 04:57:22 -0700 (PDT) From: "BestPfizer's Shop" To: v6ops-archive@ietf.org Subject: User v6ops-archive gets 70% off. Their about of Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2010 07:56:55 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-Id: <20100830115723.0E9F43A69AA@core3.amsl.com> Newsletter
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 From v6ops-archive@ietf.org Mon Aug 30 07:56:39 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 637DC3A6819 for ; Mon, 30 Aug 2010 07:56:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char AE hex): Subject: v6ops-archive@ietf.org V|AGRA \256 Official Selle[...] X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -11.859 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-11.859 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_95=3, DRUGS_ERECTILE=1, DRUGS_ERECTILE_OBFU=1.5, FUZZY_VPILL=0.687, HELO_EQ_DYNAMIC=1.144, HELO_EQ_RU=0.595, HOST_EQ_RU=0.875, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_08=1.787, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_1=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_14=0.6, MANGLED_VIAGRA=2.5, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_OBFU_VIAGRA=1.666, SUBJECT_NEEDS_ENCODING=0.001, TT_OBSCURED_VIAGRA=1.652, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_SC_SURBL=10, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vVEaO-UE8zea for ; Mon, 30 Aug 2010 07:56:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 5f448e40.dynamic.mv.ru (5f448e40.dynamic.mv.ru [95.68.142.64]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id C2D3F3A6842 for ; Mon, 30 Aug 2010 07:56:32 -0700 (PDT) From: v6ops-archive@ietf.org To: v6ops-archive@ietf.org Subject: v6ops-archive@ietf.org V|AGRA ® Official Seller -50% MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20100830145632.C2D3F3A6842@core3.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2010 07:56:32 -0700 (PDT)
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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Aug 30 08:49:54 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB2E23A676A for ; Mon, 30 Aug 2010 08:49:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KIBN-2fc+zmI for ; Mon, 30 Aug 2010 08:49:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B87A23A67CC for ; Mon, 30 Aug 2010 08:49:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Oq6XI-000Cyh-GU for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Mon, 30 Aug 2010 15:44:40 +0000 Received: from eunet-gw.ipv6.netcore.fi ([2001:670:86:3001::1] helo=netcore.fi) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Oq6XB-000Cxr-2u for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 30 Aug 2010 15:44:33 +0000 Received: from netcore.fi (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by netcore.fi (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id o7UFiTcL016795 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 30 Aug 2010 18:44:29 +0300 Received: from localhost (pekkas@localhost) by netcore.fi (8.13.8/8.13.8/Submit) with ESMTP id o7UFiSps016792 for ; Mon, 30 Aug 2010 18:44:29 +0300 Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2010 18:44:28 +0300 (EEST) From: Pekka Savola To: v6ops@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: draft-carpenter-v4v6tran-framework In-Reply-To: <201008271653.o7RGrDl00592@irp-view13.cisco.com> Message-ID: References: <201008271653.o7RGrDl00592@irp-view13.cisco.com> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (LRH 1167 2008-08-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; format=flowed; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.96.1 at otso.netcore.fi X-Virus-Status: Clean Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: Hi, I was solicited to send comments on this so here we come. This sounds awfully familiar to the scenarios/analysis work we did some 5-7 years ago back here, though goal seems to produce more detailed, and more future-proof documents. A challenge here is that information, in order to be useful requires including vendor-specific and/or configuration detail which may be issue from multiple perspectives. I applaud any and all such work, but I will note that I'm somewhat skeptical of another IETF effort in this front. The previous experience was a challenge enough. I wonder if similar goals could be met by working on documenting these in a wiki. Write drafts if it helps focus discussion, but turning the crank to produce 10+ RFCs that will get outdated soon enough doesn't seem like worth the effort. -- Pekka Savola "You each name yourselves king, yet the Netcore Oy kingdom bleeds." Systems. Networks. Security. -- George R.R. Martin: A Clash of Kings From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Aug 30 15:11:35 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79D0F3A69F8 for ; Mon, 30 Aug 2010 15:11:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.949 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.949 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.650, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nzD4QXVcqqlO for ; Mon, 30 Aug 2010 15:11:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 654B53A6897 for ; Mon, 30 Aug 2010 15:11:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OqCVk-000Mm1-V6 for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Mon, 30 Aug 2010 22:07:28 +0000 Received: from mail-gy0-f179.google.com ([209.85.160.179]) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OqCVe-000MlQ-Li for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 30 Aug 2010 22:07:22 +0000 Received: by gyh4 with SMTP id 4so3014225gyh.24 for ; Mon, 30 Aug 2010 15:07:19 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:received:in-reply-to :references:date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=2OiB6POppP+usENonDZIR5N7SdRTRdE8QbQ3+XXhiZM=; b=cfKwm8OXKrLitQEVn4r7hhd93EBhyEZV6iT88BP8kma4DbefL8/r3dVPAZE5ljXP3a C0u7PfBiwj6F0kY2tOGVwoASmQh8fAoWdU/yG442WrQcrVFl9PuudpSOy54WN0dha1uI VCzGO7euVzv20RswubQwv8wQKcS2rQGdVpYkU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=EDszNCWqrWy2PE1b/XxI2P7sG7VdYffSijQkOtAm5NWRfj40O0lS71hA7pR/Wg+Kz6 tjOfnMqrAOYea1SU5Nq9a+PduFsb+1tHGcM0uvO/PD/7O/QHClNTvinIneyNsWtuBL4H NYZkahLcfs6JzCZIFDWT4w43k7m1Fdw8zPll4= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.151.133.10 with SMTP id k10mr693498ybn.260.1283206038790; Mon, 30 Aug 2010 15:07:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.189.4 with HTTP; Mon, 30 Aug 2010 15:07:18 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <201008271653.o7RGrDl00592@irp-view13.cisco.com> Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2010 15:07:18 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: draft-carpenter-v4v6tran-framework From: Cameron Byrne To: Pekka Savola Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: On Mon, Aug 30, 2010 at 8:44 AM, Pekka Savola wrote: > Hi, > > I was solicited to send comments on this so here we come. > > This sounds awfully familiar to the scenarios/analysis work we did some 5= -7 > years ago back here, though goal seems to produce more detailed, and more > future-proof documents. =A0A challenge here is that information, in order= to > be useful requires including vendor-specific and/or configuration detail > which may be issue from multiple perspectives. > > I applaud any and all such work, but I will note that I'm somewhat skepti= cal > of another IETF effort in this front. =A0The previous experience was a > challenge enough. > > I wonder if similar goals could be met by working on documenting these in= a > wiki. Write drafts if it helps focus discussion, but turning the crank to > produce 10+ RFCs that will get outdated soon enough doesn't seem like wor= th > the effort. I completely agree. A wiki would be more timely, relevant, and accessible. The reality of the IETF is that the people doing tactical deployment and testing don't care what the RFC / SDO says (IPv6 mandatory in 3GPP IMS ....). Many operators just write an RFP for what they want. In my experience, vendors build to RFP, not RFC. Just think of how many RFCs have never shipped in production code. The danger is that once an RFC is written, regardless of standards track, working group, or not .... it then becomes a reference to justify all kinds of things that are very unnatural and unintended, especially when we are talking about thins other than protocol specifics. The fact is, in rolling out my own (IMHO wildy successful) pilot, i used wikis and search engines (for NANOG presentations...) , books, and manuals, not RFCs. I think this is how most hands on folks operate. RFC are only involved when going after a vendor for bugs, interoperability, and features. Most telcos are big companies with lots of resources. How the resources are handed out is another matter entirely, and the IETF cannot help there either. Cameron ps. Sorry if this is more of a rant about the suggested v4v6transition working group than this individual draft. From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Aug 30 15:37:42 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E85F3A6887 for ; Mon, 30 Aug 2010 15:37:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.34 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.34 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.341, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_13=0.6, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7ypNAUDLRh0c for ; Mon, 30 Aug 2010 15:37:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C3453A67B6 for ; Mon, 30 Aug 2010 15:37:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OqCxk-0001Zn-Ks for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Mon, 30 Aug 2010 22:36:24 +0000 Received: from mail-qy0-f173.google.com ([209.85.216.173]) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OqCxe-0001ZG-9b for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 30 Aug 2010 22:36:18 +0000 Received: by qyk5 with SMTP id 5so3609614qyk.11 for ; Mon, 30 Aug 2010 15:36:17 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from :organization:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=1Set7Gdq6x3Kq38z8UCiQJZ+s1xSAbEYnRpaOYP8xgU=; b=hC+VINGYFthgtpGTUkaNCionSuXynhPFUhv/NBWcGD4qxK24AqBhz7eXxd014ZnU/m yLWBhGwHwN8mUKRUiPOAytKe1pKv+GprTRtbG9iMhfJl0RK3ApqATWm5Kg0wI4X0aSVA JvtB8WPyQ58tLpLaGcjUkV50GQm4FXTXHokws= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:organization:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc :subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=HuwYj8Wc+fU1RkTsZZIfubjXW27qZEcNL5WIxAW3FLPGkYBOyv6yUjzw4l+sZS9QmT KYUsSlUtQs1ndFrUYK6fa8kyuY6fw1Nsr+lcJ66wX9TD+ssnED9ogF9KOIjqWgtw5dc0 Q6Ke7LuxI7w/QurjWW3gNBNeOVlC8TTTA6f70= Received: by 10.220.161.200 with SMTP id s8mr3654908vcx.216.1283207777259; Mon, 30 Aug 2010 15:36:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [130.216.38.124] (stf-brian.sfac.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.38.124]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id a16sm2647880vcm.18.2010.08.30.15.36.12 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Mon, 30 Aug 2010 15:36:14 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4C7C3259.9070304@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2010 10:36:09 +1200 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Windows/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Pekka Savola CC: v6ops@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: draft-carpenter-v4v6tran-framework References: <201008271653.o7RGrDl00592@irp-view13.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: Pekka, Thanks. Yes, this is not so different from the earliest goals of v6ops, but the difference now is that we have many ISPs who are strongly motivated, and also a clear understanding that the address runout is visible within current planning cycles. Personally I don't believe that a wiki is going to meet the needs. Wikis can and do serve as useful repositories and I'm all for them, for reasons that Cameron has stated in his message, but they are not solid enough for the target audience. We need both. Regards Brian Carpenter On 2010-08-31 03:44, Pekka Savola wrote: > Hi, > > I was solicited to send comments on this so here we come. > > This sounds awfully familiar to the scenarios/analysis work we did some > 5-7 years ago back here, though goal seems to produce more detailed, and > more future-proof documents. A challenge here is that information, in > order to be useful requires including vendor-specific and/or > configuration detail which may be issue from multiple perspectives. > > I applaud any and all such work, but I will note that I'm somewhat > skeptical of another IETF effort in this front. The previous experience > was a challenge enough. > > I wonder if similar goals could be met by working on documenting these > in a wiki. Write drafts if it helps focus discussion, but turning the > crank to produce 10+ RFCs that will get outdated soon enough doesn't > seem like worth the effort. > From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Aug 30 15:41:09 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F17F3A69EC for ; Mon, 30 Aug 2010 15:41:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.631 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.631 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.032, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NNTXnHfiMvi4 for ; Mon, 30 Aug 2010 15:40:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 862EB3A68D0 for ; Mon, 30 Aug 2010 15:40:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OqD1j-0002Fx-JW for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Mon, 30 Aug 2010 22:40:31 +0000 Received: from mail-qy0-f173.google.com ([209.85.216.173]) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OqD1d-0002Fc-0T for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 30 Aug 2010 22:40:25 +0000 Received: by qyk5 with SMTP id 5so3615382qyk.11 for ; Mon, 30 Aug 2010 15:40:24 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from :organization:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=p3RZbKfhdwwrmbbk3lJbT2UE76CRxyLUen/qMUFIbTY=; b=efetcWoXMGyiHN0izs3sorqd8e9xkfZsS2w2boPjfTrpE4KkON9wt/QhEnQuqCAPS6 EUbisJTBshZEwnsTMP7fyjIlNnih0w+vXUlvfEkjIo48qvERa6gewinHhjdwozwdpM8J AXdi8TaoC9BaeqR2/R25HenYAFGXZSOLjXtZw= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:organization:user-agent:mime-version:to :subject:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=cwmAvJGZF1Ww5RgEpcexBVMGRFDuvSCoNbOeAJPwLs7iHqsKQzPcMKBJD2mOO9EgH/ w9BeTxsY2mjU7CCuXit3Fym0feySXG81aQNvUjto54nmdbi+9F2vcmPVQH8arz09B1te i6vBrp/LH7F1lr4c66Ru10Biw1FmMPvzl2L+s= Received: by 10.220.129.13 with SMTP id m13mr3075485vcs.132.1283208022315; Mon, 30 Aug 2010 15:40:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [130.216.38.124] (stf-brian.sfac.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.38.124]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id m30sm4581460vbr.19.2010.08.30.15.40.20 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Mon, 30 Aug 2010 15:40:21 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4C7C334A.8070606@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2010 10:40:10 +1200 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Windows/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: IPv6 Operations Subject: [Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-lee-v4v6tran-problem-00] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: This should help to clarify the reasons for publishing draft-carpenter-v4v6tran-framework Brian -------- Original Message -------- Subject: [v4tov6transition] FW: New Version Notification for draft-lee-v4v6tran-problem-00 Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2010 17:39:02 -0400 From: Yiu L. Lee To: ------ Forwarded Message From: IETF I-D Submission Tool Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2010 14:24:03 -0700 To: Yiu Leung Lee Subject: New Version Notification for draft-lee-v4v6tran-problem-00 A new version of I-D, draft-lee-v4v6tran-problem-00.txt has been successfully submitted by Yiu Lee and posted to the IETF repository. Filename: draft-lee-v4v6tran-problem Revision: 00 Title: Problem Statements of IPv6 Transition of ISP Creation_date: 2010-08-30 WG ID: Independent Submission Number_of_pages: 10 Abstract: The IETF has defined a number of technologies and techniques that targets the transition from IPv4 to IPv6. Documented techniques identify high level use cases and generalized options for networks. Operators may have difficulty attempting to apply the documented techniques to their networks since each network and system operates uniquely within the global Internet. Operators may require guidance on how to identify the appropriate technology, or technologies, and apply them to their specific environments. This memo describes the problem statements related to the transition of operator's networks to IPv6. The IETF Secretariat. ------ End of Forwarded Message _______________________________________________ v4tov6transition mailing list v4tov6transition@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v4tov6transition From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Aug 30 15:42:46 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD18C3A68AD for ; Mon, 30 Aug 2010 15:42:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.961 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.961 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.638, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6vl1ahsjiv5c for ; Mon, 30 Aug 2010 15:42:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 808423A689E for ; Mon, 30 Aug 2010 15:42:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OqD3Y-0002bZ-N3 for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Mon, 30 Aug 2010 22:42:24 +0000 Received: from mail-gx0-f180.google.com ([209.85.161.180]) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OqD3S-0002ax-JC for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 30 Aug 2010 22:42:18 +0000 Received: by gxk4 with SMTP id 4so1531058gxk.11 for ; Mon, 30 Aug 2010 15:42:17 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:received:in-reply-to :references:date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=MZEInki4js7zvnHY5rKe3LnhNYdBzgW6Fxq7j8vhIEQ=; b=gJr5OT0PVkEZn19Y0gGcjS6+tmZMndvV9+6CTcj0Pvk3bKBrLDvw0XKBdPymd5NSvC 8V05liv4YBdPR+VH81aHayya140z3k7bgCQ0E9B5O2P9sHSCGCZPLNJTlqXjc2Nlyclg 57aArTi+ukAyPBn+plxNasZaLIGjyajmhEGpw= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=nS9XjCwWOzWzVKx5jse/7luX/tQWKT27Qf231P72yDFM9vgINd+Z//4SzBZTTd4yjk Pyx0MfpmWzNWyS6RAJ5ZyEiei4/cst5fN2P2SLKLaM8J6u+TK99LRXKVqs1RYHtvnK8p n/Jwrh+bDJbRF/8nEn5CzxqS8xLARbH0jp7eg= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.151.132.21 with SMTP id j21mr665879ybn.104.1283208137051; Mon, 30 Aug 2010 15:42:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.189.4 with HTTP; Mon, 30 Aug 2010 15:42:16 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <002a01cb4712$d9f72fb0$8de58f10$@com> References: <002a01cb4712$d9f72fb0$8de58f10$@com> Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2010 15:42:16 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [v4tov6transition] draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC From: Cameron Byrne To: YangGL Cc: "Yiu L. Lee" , huang cancan , IPv6 v6ops , v4tov6transition@ietf.org, Kurt Erik Lindqvist Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: 2010/8/28 YangGL : > Tests in my lab have proved that many popular applications cannot work on > IPv6-only network with NAT64, such as IM, P2P, games, and part of video. = WEB > and part of mail (Outlook and Outlook express) are the only applications = we > can find working properly with NAT64. But there are more than 50% traffic= is > P2P, WEB traffic is less than 20% on CT=92s network. I think it is not a = good > news to NAT64. > I agree, NAT64 is not great for fixed line operators today, but i am sure someone has suggested DS-lite to you. Mobile wireless in the USA is a different case, 90+% of my traffic is Web (tcp 80 and 443) and Email (pop,smtp, imap ...). And, 40+% of my overall aggregate ISP bandwidth goes to content providers that have substantial capability to deliver IPv6 content today (Google, Facebook, ...). As draft-arkko-ipv6-only-experience states, mobile can reach near 100% functionality today with IPv6-only on the handsets. The expedience varies greatly between handset manufactures, but the gap is closing quickly. Most folks know Nokia is a leader in IPv6, and now we see substantial IPv6 efforts from Android and Apple (Windows phone 7?). >From an access network perspective, i have found it is extremely important to partner with content providers as well as applications developers and have an open dialog about native IPv6 as well as how transition mechanisms will impact the user experience. In my real world experience, the content providers take user experience very seriously, and they know CGN is harmful and IPv6 is a near term reality. And, i have taken the wiki approach to fix IPv4 literals http://groups.google.com/group/ipv4literals , at least the ones that can be fixed as i encounter them in my real world pilot network. I believe the point here, as someone else likely said, there is no one size fits all. Using a search engine, you can find enough general and enough specific information to find what works best for you. Review it with your vendors, do labs, trials, pilots, betas .... learn, repeat, deploy at small scale, learn, then deploy at large scale, monitor, learn, fix ... probably need to do training in there somewhere too. From a technology evolution and process perspective, there is nothing new with IPv6. Finally, it is interesting you said that 50% of the traffic is P2P and you are concerned P2P will not work with IPv6. According to this link, P2P traffic is driving IPv6 growth http://tinyurl.com/lkjwhq and http://tinyurl.com/25ka5jp From the operators that i have talked to, rolling out IPv6 natively in the fixed-line environment reveals a substantial amount of P2P IPv6 traffic. uTorrent is an IPv6 vanguard. Others will follow if they have not already in making their apps work with IPv6. Once again, the knife cuts both ways. Some P2P applications will thrive in IPv6 (seems obvious given e2e nature of things) while others will be forced to evolve or be deprecated by their users. Regards, Cameron =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D http://groups.google.com/group/tmoipv6beta =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Aug 30 15:43:51 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1E4D3A68AE for ; Mon, 30 Aug 2010 15:43:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.33 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.33 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.331, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_13=0.6, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dudCsHnKwORQ for ; Mon, 30 Aug 2010 15:43:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35DE13A689E for ; Mon, 30 Aug 2010 15:43:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OqD4t-0002qa-9F for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Mon, 30 Aug 2010 22:43:47 +0000 Received: from mail-qy0-f173.google.com ([209.85.216.173]) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OqD4m-0002pj-C1 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 30 Aug 2010 22:43:40 +0000 Received: by qyk5 with SMTP id 5so3619918qyk.11 for ; Mon, 30 Aug 2010 15:43:39 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from :organization:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=nXn+KdsWC7qSLuFKuigjB0HbxKtO9YV2kr1gQ0/dHts=; b=n15UePCbp2p7yPcyTzpOs4eqNr8DMYoW77JqRfmw3nRvsUHVqYxq9W4iYusivBKrtW Zte4caGtXQtAcD2asgz1El1cI576GX/rAyljn3GxqP90M4mDLtBFNdj3HVTSo50FXUqE wFb/McQNsL931c1MchbAFUGDVZJAeFXG8UK6A= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:organization:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc :subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=Nj9iOa+9ARx+BwyV2NzCUOMkQ/igjlK1NwNbRWspH83BXHgsZu/erz2AKWdWSmub6Z tlAxSL45tw+f39Cpwe9kvup6Do5mprc/IDZIEPSJollGVAj1Oa2yAq9LZeZLEAtq1aM/ N4SM/fzRkVTPLpcuTMevbxZOGPvhpqWeL36Vs= Received: by 10.220.49.202 with SMTP id w10mr3166095vcf.70.1283207898220; Mon, 30 Aug 2010 15:38:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [130.216.38.124] (stf-brian.sfac.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.38.124]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id s29sm2649747vcr.23.2010.08.30.15.38.13 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Mon, 30 Aug 2010 15:38:15 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4C7C32D2.70909@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2010 10:38:10 +1200 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Windows/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: huang cancan CC: Fred Baker , Behave WG , Kurt Erik Lindqvist , IPv6 v6ops , v4tov6transition@ietf.org Subject: Re: [v4tov6transition] draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC References: <002a01cb4712$d9f72fb0$8de58f10$@com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: Hi, On 2010-08-30 21:26, huang cancan wrote: > Another reason why we don't test stateless NAT64 is that there are few > application clients support IPv6, we can only test web or mail applicat= ions > which are also OK with the stateful one. But you reported other applications failing. How can they fail with NAT64= if they have no IPv6 support in the first place? Brian > 2010/8/29 Fred Baker >=20 >> >> >> >> May I ask a question? >> >> When you say you tested it with NAT64, what did you test with? >> >> There are two modes for translation between IPv4 and IPv6. The statefu= l >> mode, described in draft-ietf-behave-v6v4-xlate-stateful, is essential= ly >> identical in function to IPv4/IPv4 NAT, and allows IPv6 systems to con= nect >> to IPv4 systems but not the reverse. The stateless mode, described in >> draft-ietf-behave-v6v4-xlate, allows connections to be initiated in ei= ther >> direction. The downside of the stateless mode is that it requires a di= rect >> mapping between an IPv4 and an IPv6 address. The are two parts of a co= mmon >> framework, use the same addressing plan, and the same DNS extension. >> >> Are you running both modes, or only the stateful mode? If you are only= >> running the stateful mode, that what you're reporting is what we have = been >> saying for some time it will behave like. >> >> http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-behave-address-format >> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-behave-address-format >> "IPv6 Addressing of IPv4/IPv6 Translators", Congxiao Bao, Christian >> Huitema, Marcelo Bagnulo, Mohammed Boucadair, Xing Li, 15-Aug-10, >> >> >> http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-behave-dns64 >> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-behave-dns64 >> "DNS64: DNS extensions for Network Address Translation from IPv6 Clie= nts >> to IPv4 Servers", Marcelo Bagnulo, Andrew Sullivan, Philip Matthews, >> Iljitsch van Beijnum, 5-Jul-10, >> >> http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-behave-v6v4-framework >> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-behave-v6v4-framework >> "Framework for IPv4/IPv6 Translation", Fred Baker, Xing Li, Congxiao >> Bao, Kevin Yin, 17-Aug-10, >> >> http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-behave-v6v4-xlate >> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-behave-v6v4-xlate >> "IP/ICMP Translation Algorithm", Xing Li, Congxiao Bao, Fred Baker, >> 22-Aug-10, >> >> http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-behave-v6v4-xlate-stateful >> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-behave-v6v4-xlate-stateful >> "Stateful NAT64: Network Address and Protocol Translation from IPv6 >> Clients to IPv4 Servers", Marcelo Bagnulo, Philip Matthews, Iljitsch = van >> Beijnum, 12-Jul-10, >> >> >> On Aug 28, 2010, at 5:40 PM, YangGL wrote: >> >>> Tests in my lab have proved that many popular applications cannot wor= k on >> IPv6-only network with NAT64, such as IM, P2P, games, and part of vide= o. WEB >> and part of mail (Outlook and Outlook express) are the only applicatio= ns we >> can find working properly with NAT64. But there are more than 50% traf= fic is >> P2P, WEB traffic is less than 20% on CT=E2=80=99s network. I think it = is not a good >> news to NAT64. >>> Tests also prove that almost all of popular applications on Internet = can >> work on IPv4-only network with single level and double level NAT44, su= ch as >> WEB, mail, IM, P2P, games, video and etc. >>> NAT64 and NAT44 are similar in theory. But what make the difference o= f >> application support? I think it should be timing. NAT44 appears ten ye= ars >> ago. There are a few applications on internet at that time. Subsequent= >> applications, such as IM, P2P, were designed to work with NAT44. NAT64= come >> after this popular applications, situation is totally different. If NA= T64 is >> deployed on commercial network now, CT=E2=80=99s network traffic will = cut down 70% >> immediately, and most applications will release a new version for IPv6= -only >> or NAT64 in the next one year. But it is not a good idea to providers.= >>> Best regards, >>> Yang Guoliang >>> >>> =E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: v4tov6transition-bounces@ietf.org [mailt= o: >> v4tov6transition-bounces@ietf.org] =E4=BB=A3=E8=A1=A8 Yiu L. Lee >>> =E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4: 2010=E5=B9=B48=E6=9C=8825=E6=97= =A5 22:05 >>> =E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: huang cancan >>> =E6=8A=84=E9=80=81: Kurt Erik Lindqvist; IPv6 v6ops; v4tov6transition= @ietf.org >>> =E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98: Re: [v4tov6transition] draft-arkko-ipv6-transitio= n-guidelines WGLC >>> >>> From user=E2=80=99s perspective, do they care IPv4 or IPv6? Most don=E2= =80=99t. For >> example: a casual web user wants to access his/her favorite IPv4-only >> website. If his web client and PC support IPv6 and on an IPv6-only net= work >> with NAT64, the web traffic will go through the NAT once. If his web c= lient >> and PC support IPv4-only on an IPv4 network with NAT444, the web traff= ic >> will go through the NAT twice. In the end, he/she still gets the same >> content. From this perspective, both experience =E2=80=9Ccould be=E2=80= =9D very similar. >>> However, this use case is rather limited and not applicable to many >> applications. This is why I said =E2=80=9Ccould be=E2=80=9D. Also, bot= h Cameron and I agree >> that this is easier to implement IPv6-only on mobile network than on f= ixed >> network because mobile operators have more control over the devices an= d >> apps. IMHO, it will take longer time for fixed network operators to su= pport >> NAT64 only solution in the network. >>> >>> On 8/25/10 9:41 AM, "huang cancan" wrote: >>> >>> well, I mean: why customer experience of IPv4-only + NAT444 could be = the >> same as IPv6-only + NAT64? >>> On Wed, Aug 25, 2010 at 9:24 PM, Yiu L. Lee >> wrote: >>> In order to deploy IPv6-only + NAT64, the client and network must tal= k >> IPv6. It also requires DNS64. These requirements are not needed for >> IPv4-only + NAT444. From the deployment point of view, they are very >> different technologies. >>> >>> >>> On 8/25/10 7:13 AM, "huang cancan" > http://cancanhuang110@gmail.com> > wrote: >>> hi,Yiu: >>> As you mentioned below: >>>> All I am saying is the customer >>>> experience of IPv4-only + NAT444 could be the same as IPv6-only + >> NAT64, but >>>> the technologies and plan to offer these service are very different.= >>> Do you have any test data to support this conclusion? >>> >>> Can-can Huang >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Aug 21, 2010 at 7:37 AM, Yiu L. Lee > http://yiu_lee@cable.comcast.com> > wrote: >>>> Agreed. The 2x cost is really just the packet core ... which is of >>>> course a lot of money to double for no tangible benefit ..... talk >>>> about no business case .... And, still have numbering issues, custom= er >>>> experience is the same as IPv4-only + NAT44 and approximately the sa= me >>>> as IPv6-only + NAT64 >>>> >>> Life cycle of mobile equipments could be every 2-3 years, but life cy= cle >> of >>> consumer electronics could be 5+ years. Consider many large TVs with >>> Internet service selling today are still running IPv4-only, fixed lin= e >>> operators must prepare to support them in foreseeable future. >>> >>> That said, I am not saying an operator must build a dual-stack core >> network, >>> there are technologies such as DS-lite and Softwire Mesh available to= run >> a >>> pure IPv6 core network with dual-stack edge. All I am saying is the >> customer >>> experience of IPv4-only + NAT444 could be the same as IPv6-only + NAT= 64, >> but >>> the technologies and plan to offer these service are very different. >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> v4tov6transition mailing list >>> v4tov6transition@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v4tov6transition >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> v4tov6transition mailing list >>> v4tov6transition@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v4tov6transition >> >=20 >=20 > -----------------------------------------------------------------------= - >=20 > _______________________________________________ > v4tov6transition mailing list > v4tov6transition@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v4tov6transition From v6ops-archive@ietf.org Mon Aug 30 15:52:37 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E6FB3A6814 for ; Mon, 30 Aug 2010 15:52:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char AE hex): Subject: v6ops-archive@ietf.org V|AGRA \256 Official Selle[...] X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.985 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.985 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_95=3, DRUGS_ERECTILE=1, DRUGS_ERECTILE_OBFU=1.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, FUZZY_VPILL=0.687, HELO_DYNAMIC_DHCP=1.398, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR=2.426, HELO_EQ_PL=1.135, HOST_EQ_PL=1.95, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_08=1.787, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_1=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_14=0.6, MANGLED_VIAGRA=2.5, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_OBFU_VIAGRA=1.666, SUBJECT_NEEDS_ENCODING=0.001, TT_OBSCURED_VIAGRA=1.652, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hScWbfuVoPMD for ; Mon, 30 Aug 2010 15:52:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from CMPC-089-239-124-159.CNet.Gawex.PL (CMPC-089-239-124-159.CNet.Gawex.PL [89.239.124.159]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id EB2DA3A67F9 for ; Mon, 30 Aug 2010 15:52:33 -0700 (PDT) From: v6ops-archive@ietf.org To: v6ops-archive@ietf.org Subject: v6ops-archive@ietf.org V|AGRA ® Official Seller -34% MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20100830225233.EB2DA3A67F9@core3.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2010 15:52:33 -0700 (PDT)
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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Aug 30 16:30:56 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E6E83A68CF for ; Mon, 30 Aug 2010 16:30:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.983 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.983 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.616, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id F8FcT8e2vMxe for ; Mon, 30 Aug 2010 16:30:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6EE773A68C5 for ; Mon, 30 Aug 2010 16:30:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OqDlW-000AEG-0j for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Mon, 30 Aug 2010 23:27:50 +0000 Received: from mail-gx0-f194.google.com ([209.85.161.194]) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OqDlP-000ADm-N3 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 30 Aug 2010 23:27:43 +0000 Received: by gxk23 with SMTP id 23so1180095gxk.5 for ; Mon, 30 Aug 2010 16:27:43 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:sender:message-id:date:from :user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to :x-enigmail-version:openpgp:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=GGfVSUsTwUJqNhzCRH1L7vTHhSpN0gehuOaXzBs72yI=; b=X3QnSfMj2kKqBRDLiBkIhxlmyaOD2iZiT+LSz/VixaJJ9ewqCtk6ObRNNNnpayD/1p 7snnpwlhqdecSIQJfCWpVXN4Pl+NgwUQIxsGw8txB95SbGQxyM6//Agj3pbNvf2pyHL7 z8rYtDWsRzIYU93I+WrWwJkBBagzzKFdHkYIQ= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=sender:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject :references:in-reply-to:x-enigmail-version:openpgp:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=hlTqw+mw8PIBo9qi1kjmY1mzqcj230S6mrNVYtNmfccFH8quHSU3w9iDoBylO38uFV bLF5WbmGcWyAv3FH40RM8Ya/IXON1YpJ+e7qaGl9xWWuggcH6Hcj1Ezls+UTmaeoAKfN 3ayafWV2tRoz3yxy+bKmkca5voDf3zoAdFoWY= Received: by 10.100.137.11 with SMTP id k11mr5432857and.103.1283210863078; Mon, 30 Aug 2010 16:27:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.2.11] ([190.245.181.90]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id x33sm13449346ana.13.2010.08.30.16.27.38 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Mon, 30 Aug 2010 16:27:42 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4C7C3846.3090905@gont.com.ar> Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2010 20:01:26 -0300 From: Fernando Gont User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.24 (Windows/20100228) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Fred Baker CC: v6ops@ops.ietf.org, v6ops-chairs@tools.ietf.org, Ron Bonica Subject: Re: draft-ietf-v6ops-tunnel-security WGLC References: <1AB78814-4BDA-41A0-A60E-90F9EA0E3DFD@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <1AB78814-4BDA-41A0-A60E-90F9EA0E3DFD@cisco.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.96.0 OpenPGP: id=D076FFF1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: Hi, Fred, I have recently sent feedback for the aforementioned I-D (on-list, but also CC'ed the authors). Please consider those comments as part of the WGLC of this document. Thanks! Kind regards, Fernando Fred Baker wrote: > This is to initiate a two week working group last call > of draft-ietf-v6ops-tunnel-security. Please read it now. If you find > nits (spelling errors, minor > > We are looking specifically for comments on the importance of the > document as well as its content. If you have read the document and > believe it to be of operational utility, that is also an important > comment to make. -- Fernando Gont e-mail: fernando@gont.com.ar || fgont@acm.org PGP Fingerprint: 7809 84F5 322E 45C7 F1C9 3945 96EE A9EF D076 FFF1 From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Aug 30 16:38:07 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EACB3A6882 for ; Mon, 30 Aug 2010 16:38:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.49 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.49 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.109, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cJQGgJN5jo7Q for ; Mon, 30 Aug 2010 16:38:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B3F83A6859 for ; Mon, 30 Aug 2010 16:38:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OqDv4-000BlT-Gt for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Mon, 30 Aug 2010 23:37:42 +0000 Received: from ssh.psg.com ([2001:418:1::40] helo=ran.psg.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OqDuy-000BiK-J9 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 30 Aug 2010 23:37:36 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=rmac.psg.com.psg.com) by ran.psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OqDux-00041P-07; Mon, 30 Aug 2010 23:37:36 +0000 Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2010 08:37:34 +0900 Message-ID: From: Randy Bush To: Pekka Savola Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: draft-carpenter-v4v6tran-framework In-Reply-To: References: <201008271653.o7RGrDl00592@irp-view13.cisco.com> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 (Almost Unreal) Emacs/22.3 Mule/5.0 (SAKAKI) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI 1.14.6 - "Maruoka") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: > I applaud any and all such work, but I will note that I'm somewhat > skeptical of another IETF effort in this front. The previous > experience was a challenge enough. those who do not remember ngtrans are doomed to repeat it. > I wonder if similar goals could be met by working on documenting these > in a wiki. Write drafts if it helps focus discussion, but turning the > crank to produce 10+ RFCs that will get outdated soon enough doesn't > seem like worth the effort. agree. my guess is that documentation is either un-useful pontification which lacks detail or is useful but ephemeral. randy From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Aug 30 16:42:05 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 800F33A6882 for ; Mon, 30 Aug 2010 16:42:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.491 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.491 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.108, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Cd2+h9edf2nt for ; Mon, 30 Aug 2010 16:42:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF8443A6859 for ; Mon, 30 Aug 2010 16:42:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OqDyn-000CBJ-NF for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Mon, 30 Aug 2010 23:41:33 +0000 Received: from ssh.psg.com ([2001:418:1::40] helo=ran.psg.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OqDyh-000CAi-V3 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 30 Aug 2010 23:41:27 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=rmac.psg.com.psg.com) by ran.psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OqDyh-00041p-0O; Mon, 30 Aug 2010 23:41:27 +0000 Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2010 08:41:26 +0900 Message-ID: From: Randy Bush To: Brian E Carpenter Cc: IPv6 Operations Subject: Re: [Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-lee-v4v6tran-problem-00] In-Reply-To: <4C7C334A.8070606@gmail.com> References: <4C7C334A.8070606@gmail.com> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 (Almost Unreal) Emacs/22.3 Mule/5.0 (SAKAKI) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI 1.14.6 - "Maruoka") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: > This should help to clarify the reasons for publishing > draft-carpenter-v4v6tran-framework > o What is the recommended prefix length for a large operator? > > o What is the recommended prefix length for a medium operator? > > o What is the recommended prefix length to hand out to customers? > > o What is the recommended longest prefix length an operator should > accept from customers? you gotta love it. we spend a decade getting the ietf out of telling operators how to run our business, and here we go again. randy From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Aug 30 17:45:14 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFC203A68B1 for ; Mon, 30 Aug 2010 17:45:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.624 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.624 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.025, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vm5uYrPK59oT for ; Mon, 30 Aug 2010 17:45:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0C5B3A68C0 for ; Mon, 30 Aug 2010 17:45:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OqEuc-000Jk1-G9 for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Tue, 31 Aug 2010 00:41:20 +0000 Received: from mail-gw0-f52.google.com ([74.125.83.52]) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OqEuS-000JfF-1J for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 31 Aug 2010 00:41:08 +0000 Received: by gwj20 with SMTP id 20so3249307gwj.11 for ; Mon, 30 Aug 2010 17:40:50 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from :organization:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=+Pe66V6yuP1n/9HQVYQqFz4udt51Vrg2awyLu4IpHUM=; b=q/NkIRzAgG6XeBwO4DmUg+Yv/UuwVt0iCV1uuryCluY+S5CLAJxsaCk3iYUihx30sk Y7CinZE9HqZiVsdgy4uwINvWjLtfU12Boc7dRV+Vi4OVdEtvlPIpZvK6Yg1e2SypglyE o1X8PW4UzKhrDmMh4ZRG8GnQNbYhcBdBdH9ws= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:organization:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc :subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=gRznjISa2Y14jBaXzqLRtpzSC06ZqvGqGQQLiLWiPkirm7eBDuma8YWkfKBL0xN+tg In4RDiqbIJcZStYGIlbLPTTDQ4ULza+ypTc5FGB/VXj0zZ/1f6KandXAr5XSmxnierjC CuWIe0Y622wQi5/rczKnDxOliMadmqHMMHqJ4= Received: by 10.220.122.151 with SMTP id l23mr3131120vcr.162.1283215249912; Mon, 30 Aug 2010 17:40:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [130.216.38.124] (stf-brian.sfac.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.38.124]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id w1sm4663381vbl.18.2010.08.30.17.40.48 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Mon, 30 Aug 2010 17:40:49 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4C7C4F98.1050809@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2010 12:40:56 +1200 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Windows/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Randy Bush CC: IPv6 Operations Subject: Re: [Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-lee-v4v6tran-problem-00] References: <4C7C334A.8070606@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: On 2010-08-31 11:41, Randy Bush wrote: >> This should help to clarify the reasons for publishing >> draft-carpenter-v4v6tran-framework > >> o What is the recommended prefix length for a large operator? >> >> o What is the recommended prefix length for a medium operator? >> >> o What is the recommended prefix length to hand out to customers? >> >> o What is the recommended longest prefix length an operator should >> accept from customers? > > you gotta love it. we spend a decade getting the ietf out of telling > operators how to run our business, and here we go again. I agree that the end product in this case shouldn't be firm recommendations (see draft-narten-ipv6-3177bis-48boundary for the discussion). But the reasons why different lengths suit different cases are worth describing. Brian From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Aug 30 20:20:28 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E02F3A6894 for ; Mon, 30 Aug 2010 20:20:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -99.417 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-99.417 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.131, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_13=0.6, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id njtkqAGDfPTy for ; Mon, 30 Aug 2010 20:20:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19F223A6452 for ; Mon, 30 Aug 2010 20:20:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OqHIk-000FCn-W1 for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Tue, 31 Aug 2010 03:14:23 +0000 Received: from szxga04-in.huawei.com ([119.145.14.67] helo=szxga05-in.huawei.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OqHIc-000F5t-N4 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 31 Aug 2010 03:14:15 +0000 Received: from huawei.com (szxga05-in [172.24.2.49]) by szxga05-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0L7Z00MPKY9OML@szxga05-in.huawei.com> for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 31 Aug 2010 11:13:00 +0800 (CST) Received: from huawei.com ([172.24.2.119]) by szxga05-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0L7Z00GA4Y9NKA@szxga05-in.huawei.com> for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 31 Aug 2010 11:12:59 +0800 (CST) Received: from z00147053k ([10.70.39.122]) by szxml06-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTPA id <0L7Z00MV7Y9MO4@szxml06-in.huawei.com> for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 31 Aug 2010 11:12:59 +0800 (CST) Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2010 11:12:58 +0800 From: Tina TSOU Subject: Re: [v4tov6transition] draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC To: 'Fred Baker' , YangGL Cc: v4tov6transition@ietf.org, 'IPv6 v6ops' , 'Kurt Erik Lindqvist' , 'Behave WG' Message-id: <0D2B9D8C199A4D7B80B3B8E2E2389380@china.huawei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5931 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5931 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=gb2312; reply-type=original Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal References: <002a01cb4712$d9f72fb0$8de58f10$@com> <00a701cb48b4$08ff66e0$1afe34a0$@com> Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: Technically, these drafts are well written and very useful. It is really appreciated. Fred, would you explicitly point out the answers of the following questions from these drafts? Thanks. 1) There are some applications, server, clients don¡¯t support IPv6. These situations will be met regardless of stateful or stateless NAT64. No one has right to request these applications must support IPv6 (Monocrat may have), but these applications have existed and been used for many people. In the migration to IPv6, if these users can¡¯t use these service and applications, it will result in the losing of subscribers for operators, unless all the operators of the world support IPv6 at the same moment. 2) Some applications have supported NAT44 traversal maturely, but in a long period of time in the future these applications would unlikely to support NAT64¡¯s traversal. If adopting NAT64, these applications would be impacted. No one has the right to request these applications must support NAT64 traversal, so after the usage of NAT64, these application will conk out inevitably. Both stateful and stateless NAT64 have the same issues. 3) Some applications contain the senders¡¯ IP address in the packet payload, even in the encrypted packet case. These will have problems when using NAT64. Since these applications are existing applications, no one has right to requesting stop using these applications. These issues will be encountered when using NAT64 (both stateful and stateless ones have the same problem). 4) No one has the right to force all the UE to support IPV6, therefore from the technology evolution point of view, we don't have to consider IPV4 only user actively visits IPv6 only service, but in the actual use people have to consider it, otherwise it may result in the subscriber losing. Yes, it is not NAT64. 5) For some P2P application, after using NAT64, IPv4 only peer is not able to actively scan the IPv6 only peer; some P2P applications don¡¯t consider NAT64 traversal for the time being. Again, these drafts are very practical drafts, any way. B. R. Tina http://tinatsou.weebly.com/index.html ----- Original Message ----- From: "YangGL" To: "'Fred Baker'" Cc: "'Behave WG'" ; "'Kurt Erik Lindqvist'" ; "'IPv6 v6ops'" ; Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2010 10:27 AM Subject: Re: [v4tov6transition] draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC > Hi Fred, > You are really the dictionary of IPv6! Your mail always make me feel > difficult to answer, too many references to read, give me some time, I > will > come back after reading those documents mentioned in your mail. > > > Best regards, > Yang Guoliang > > > > > > May I ask a question? > > When you say you tested it with NAT64, what did you test with? > > There are two modes for translation between IPv4 and IPv6. The stateful > mode, described in draft-ietf-behave-v6v4-xlate-stateful, is essentially > identical in function to IPv4/IPv4 NAT, and allows IPv6 systems to connect > to IPv4 systems but not the reverse. The stateless mode, described in > draft-ietf-behave-v6v4-xlate, allows connections to be initiated in either > direction. The downside of the stateless mode is that it requires a direct > mapping between an IPv4 and an IPv6 address. The are two parts of a common > framework, use the same addressing plan, and the same DNS extension. > > Are you running both modes, or only the stateful mode? If you are only > running the stateful mode, that what you're reporting is what we have been > saying for some time it will behave like. > > http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-behave-address-format > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-behave-address-format > "IPv6 Addressing of IPv4/IPv6 Translators", Congxiao Bao, Christian > Huitema, Marcelo Bagnulo, Mohammed Boucadair, Xing Li, 15-Aug-10, > > > http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-behave-dns64 > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-behave-dns64 > "DNS64: DNS extensions for Network Address Translation from IPv6 Clients > to IPv4 Servers", Marcelo Bagnulo, Andrew Sullivan, Philip Matthews, > Iljitsch van Beijnum, 5-Jul-10, > > http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-behave-v6v4-framework > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-behave-v6v4-framework > "Framework for IPv4/IPv6 Translation", Fred Baker, Xing Li, Congxiao > Bao, Kevin Yin, 17-Aug-10, > > http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-behave-v6v4-xlate > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-behave-v6v4-xlate > "IP/ICMP Translation Algorithm", Xing Li, Congxiao Bao, Fred Baker, > 22-Aug-10, > > http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-behave-v6v4-xlate-stateful > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-behave-v6v4-xlate-stateful > "Stateful NAT64: Network Address and Protocol Translation from IPv6 > Clients to IPv4 Servers", Marcelo Bagnulo, Philip Matthews, Iljitsch van > Beijnum, 12-Jul-10, > > > On Aug 28, 2010, at 5:40 PM, YangGL wrote: > >> Tests in my lab have proved that many popular applications cannot work on > IPv6-only network with NAT64, such as IM, P2P, games, and part of video. > WEB > and part of mail (Outlook and Outlook express) are the only applications > we > can find working properly with NAT64. But there are more than 50% traffic > is > P2P, WEB traffic is less than 20% on CT¡¯s network. I think it is not a > good > news to NAT64. >> Tests also prove that almost all of popular applications on Internet can > work on IPv4-only network with single level and double level NAT44, such > as > WEB, mail, IM, P2P, games, video and etc. >> NAT64 and NAT44 are similar in theory. But what make the difference of > application support? I think it should be timing. NAT44 appears ten years > ago. There are a few applications on internet at that time. Subsequent > applications, such as IM, P2P, were designed to work with NAT44. NAT64 > come > after this popular applications, situation is totally different. If NAT64 > is > deployed on commercial network now, CT¡¯s network traffic will cut down > 70% > immediately, and most applications will release a new version for > IPv6-only > or NAT64 in the next one year. But it is not a good idea to providers. >> >> Best regards, >> Yang Guoliang >> >> ·¢¼þÈË: v4tov6transition-bounces@ietf.org > [mailto:v4tov6transition-bounces@ietf.org] ´ú±í Yiu L. Lee >> ·¢ËÍʱ¼ä: 2010Äê8ÔÂ25ÈÕ 22:05 >> ÊÕ¼þÈË: huang cancan >> ³­ËÍ: Kurt Erik Lindqvist; IPv6 v6ops; v4tov6transition@ietf.org >> Ö÷Ìâ: Re: [v4tov6transition] draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC >> >> From user¡¯s perspective, do they care IPv4 or IPv6? Most don¡¯t. For > example: a casual web user wants to access his/her favorite IPv4-only > website. If his web client and PC support IPv6 and on an IPv6-only network > with NAT64, the web traffic will go through the NAT once. If his web > client > and PC support IPv4-only on an IPv4 network with NAT444, the web traffic > will go through the NAT twice. In the end, he/she still gets the same > content. From this perspective, both experience ¡°could be¡± very similar. >> >> However, this use case is rather limited and not applicable to many > applications. This is why I said ¡°could be¡±. Also, both Cameron and I > agree that this is easier to implement IPv6-only on mobile network than on > fixed network because mobile operators have more control over the devices > and apps. IMHO, it will take longer time for fixed network operators to > support NAT64 only solution in the network. >> >> >> On 8/25/10 9:41 AM, "huang cancan" wrote: >> >> well, I mean: why customer experience of IPv4-only + NAT444 could be the > same as IPv6-only + NAT64? >> >> On Wed, Aug 25, 2010 at 9:24 PM, Yiu L. Lee > wrote: >> In order to deploy IPv6-only + NAT64, the client and network must talk > IPv6. It also requires DNS64. These requirements are not needed for > IPv4-only + NAT444. From the deployment point of view, they are very > different technologies. >> >> >> >> On 8/25/10 7:13 AM, "huang cancan" > wrote: >> >> hi,Yiu: >> As you mentioned below: >> > All I am saying is the customer >> > experience of IPv4-only + NAT444 could be the same as IPv6-only + >> > NAT64, > but >> > the technologies and plan to offer these service are very different. >> >> Do you have any test data to support this conclusion? >> >> Can-can Huang >> >> >> On Sat, Aug 21, 2010 at 7:37 AM, Yiu L. Lee > wrote: >> >> > Agreed. The 2x cost is really just the packet core ... which is of >> > course a lot of money to double for no tangible benefit ..... talk >> > about no business case .... And, still have numbering issues, customer >> > experience is the same as IPv4-only + NAT44 and approximately the same >> > as IPv6-only + NAT64 >> > >> Life cycle of mobile equipments could be every 2-3 years, but life cycle > of >> consumer electronics could be 5+ years. Consider many large TVs with >> Internet service selling today are still running IPv4-only, fixed line >> operators must prepare to support them in foreseeable future. >> >> That said, I am not saying an operator must build a dual-stack core > network, >> there are technologies such as DS-lite and Softwire Mesh available to run > a >> pure IPv6 core network with dual-stack edge. All I am saying is the > customer >> experience of IPv4-only + NAT444 could be the same as IPv6-only + NAT64, > but >> the technologies and plan to offer these service are very different. >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> v4tov6transition mailing list >> v4tov6transition@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v4tov6transition >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> v4tov6transition mailing list >> v4tov6transition@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v4tov6transition > > _______________________________________________ > v4tov6transition mailing list > v4tov6transition@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v4tov6transition > From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Aug 30 21:27:57 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 848513A68C7 for ; Mon, 30 Aug 2010 21:27:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -100.475 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-100.475 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.526, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_13=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_83=0.6, MIME_CHARSET_FARAWAY=2.45, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9aAs-WdGKbyq for ; Mon, 30 Aug 2010 21:27:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B05DC3A672F for ; Mon, 30 Aug 2010 21:27:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OqIOo-000Pjb-7Z for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Tue, 31 Aug 2010 04:24:42 +0000 Received: from nagasaki.bogus.com ([2001:418:1::81]) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OqIOf-000PhL-V6 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 31 Aug 2010 04:24:34 +0000 Received: from joelja-mac.lan (c-98-234-104-156.hsd1.ca.comcast.net [98.234.104.156]) (authenticated bits=0) by nagasaki.bogus.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id o7V4NaLe059422 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Tue, 31 Aug 2010 04:23:37 GMT (envelope-from joelja@bogus.com) Message-ID: <4C7C83C8.9060201@bogus.com> Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2010 21:23:36 -0700 From: Joel Jaeggli User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10.6; en-US; rv:1.9.2.8) Gecko/20100802 Lightning/1.0b2 Thunderbird/3.1.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tina TSOU CC: "'Fred Baker'" , YangGL , "'IPv6 v6ops'" , "'Behave WG'" , v4tov6transition@ietf.org Subject: Re: [BEHAVE] [v4tov6transition] draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC References: <002a01cb4712$d9f72fb0$8de58f10$@com> <00a701cb48b4$08ff66e0$1afe34a0$@com> <0D2B9D8C199A4D7B80B3B8E2E2389380@china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <0D2B9D8C199A4D7B80B3B8E2E2389380@china.huawei.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=GB2312 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.2 (nagasaki.bogus.com [147.28.0.81]); Tue, 31 Aug 2010 04:23:38 +0000 (UTC) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: Just a few observations without the wg-cochair hat on. On 8/30/10 8:12 PM, Tina TSOU wrote: > Technically, these drafts are well written and very useful. It is really > appreciated. Fred, would you explicitly point out the answers of the > following questions from these drafts? Thanks. > > 1) There are some applications, server, clients don¡¯t support IPv6. > These situations will be met regardless of stateful or stateless NAT64. > No one has right to request these applications must support IPv6 > (Monocrat may have), but these applications have existed and been used > for many people. In the migration to IPv6, if these users can¡¯t use > these service and applications, it will result in the losing of > subscribers for operators, unless all the operators of the world support > IPv6 at the same moment. Legacy ipv4 only apps aren't going to support v6 period, it has nothing to do with when operators support or don't support ipv6. legacy applications do not become new again. see (3) for dicussion of rights. > 2) Some applications have supported NAT44 traversal maturely, but in a > long period of time in the future these applications would unlikely to > support NAT64¡¯s traversal. If adopting NAT64, these applications would > be impacted. No one has the right to request these applications must > support NAT64 traversal, so after the usage of NAT64, these application > will conk out inevitably. Both stateful and stateless NAT64 have the > same issues. An application that supports nat64 traversal is fact a native ipv6 application that isn't dependent on layer violations for it's signaling of among other things ip address port numbers or security bindings. You sort of characterized this in (3). > 3) Some applications contain the senders¡¯ IP address in the packet > payload, even in the encrypted packet case. These will have problems > when using NAT64. Since these applications are existing applications, no > one has right to requesting stop using these applications. These issues > will be encountered when using NAT64 (both stateful and stateless ones > have the same problem). The word "right" is a challenge to me here. Supporting a protocol on a network is a business decision(for example, when do I add ipv6 aaaa records to a service in my network). It is is in the interests of internet service providers to induce as little deliberate breakage into the network as possible. As a content and services provider (which is what I do) if I don't adhere to this axiom I get to look for a new job. > 4) No one has the right to force all the UE to support IPV6, therefore > from the technology evolution point of view, we don't have to consider > IPV4 only user actively visits IPv6 only service, but in the actual use > people have to consider it, otherwise it may result in the subscriber > losing. Yes, it is not NAT64. There is going to be a time where ipv4 only users cannot access a resource because it only accessible via v6, in superficial cases this happens all the time. It is in the interests of most if perhaps not all network operators, application vendors and end users, to push the time in which that occurs routinely, beyond the window in which ipv6 deployment largely occurs. That said it seems like that workarounds associated with ipv4 support post-runout will result in a gradually less usable ipv4 network, which is if anything and incentive against holding out to the bitter end. > 5) For some P2P application, after using NAT64, IPv4 only peer is not > able to actively scan the IPv6 only peer; some P2P applications don¡¯t > consider NAT64 traversal for the time being. p2p applications have a built-in assumption of the existence of usable endpoint identifiers. To the extent that ipv4 identifiers become progressively less usable, p2p applications will prefer ipv6, that will require upgrade or substitution. > Again, these drafts are very practical drafts, any way. It is useful to understand what on a v6 native host is not going to work well through a 6to4 gateway. It is not so useful to have an existence-proof for problems with ipv4 only applications, given that we have ipv4-only-hosts to support into the immediately forseeable future. The assumption that I make with those devices be they embedded systems, pc's, mobile phones, etc, Is that I have the luxury of zero stack change. > B. R. > Tina > http://tinatsou.weebly.com/index.html > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "YangGL" > To: "'Fred Baker'" > Cc: "'Behave WG'" ; "'Kurt Erik Lindqvist'" > ; "'IPv6 v6ops'" ; > > Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2010 10:27 AM > Subject: Re: [v4tov6transition] draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC > > >> Hi Fred, >> You are really the dictionary of IPv6! Your mail always make me feel >> difficult to answer, too many references to read, give me some time, I >> will >> come back after reading those documents mentioned in your mail. >> >> >> Best regards, >> Yang Guoliang >> >> >> >> >> >> May I ask a question? >> >> When you say you tested it with NAT64, what did you test with? >> >> There are two modes for translation between IPv4 and IPv6. The stateful >> mode, described in draft-ietf-behave-v6v4-xlate-stateful, is essentially >> identical in function to IPv4/IPv4 NAT, and allows IPv6 systems to >> connect >> to IPv4 systems but not the reverse. The stateless mode, described in >> draft-ietf-behave-v6v4-xlate, allows connections to be initiated in >> either >> direction. The downside of the stateless mode is that it requires a >> direct >> mapping between an IPv4 and an IPv6 address. The are two parts of a >> common >> framework, use the same addressing plan, and the same DNS extension. >> >> Are you running both modes, or only the stateful mode? If you are only >> running the stateful mode, that what you're reporting is what we have >> been >> saying for some time it will behave like. >> >> http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-behave-address-format >> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-behave-address-format >> "IPv6 Addressing of IPv4/IPv6 Translators", Congxiao Bao, Christian >> Huitema, Marcelo Bagnulo, Mohammed Boucadair, Xing Li, 15-Aug-10, >> >> >> http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-behave-dns64 >> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-behave-dns64 >> "DNS64: DNS extensions for Network Address Translation from IPv6 Clients >> to IPv4 Servers", Marcelo Bagnulo, Andrew Sullivan, Philip Matthews, >> Iljitsch van Beijnum, 5-Jul-10, >> >> http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-behave-v6v4-framework >> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-behave-v6v4-framework >> "Framework for IPv4/IPv6 Translation", Fred Baker, Xing Li, Congxiao >> Bao, Kevin Yin, 17-Aug-10, >> >> http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-behave-v6v4-xlate >> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-behave-v6v4-xlate >> "IP/ICMP Translation Algorithm", Xing Li, Congxiao Bao, Fred Baker, >> 22-Aug-10, >> >> http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-behave-v6v4-xlate-stateful >> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-behave-v6v4-xlate-stateful >> "Stateful NAT64: Network Address and Protocol Translation from IPv6 >> Clients to IPv4 Servers", Marcelo Bagnulo, Philip Matthews, Iljitsch van >> Beijnum, 12-Jul-10, >> >> >> On Aug 28, 2010, at 5:40 PM, YangGL wrote: >> >>> Tests in my lab have proved that many popular applications cannot >>> work on >> IPv6-only network with NAT64, such as IM, P2P, games, and part of >> video. WEB >> and part of mail (Outlook and Outlook express) are the only >> applications we >> can find working properly with NAT64. But there are more than 50% >> traffic is >> P2P, WEB traffic is less than 20% on CT¡¯s network. I think it is not a >> good >> news to NAT64. >>> Tests also prove that almost all of popular applications on Internet can >> work on IPv4-only network with single level and double level NAT44, >> such as >> WEB, mail, IM, P2P, games, video and etc. >>> NAT64 and NAT44 are similar in theory. But what make the difference of >> application support? I think it should be timing. NAT44 appears ten years >> ago. There are a few applications on internet at that time. Subsequent >> applications, such as IM, P2P, were designed to work with NAT44. NAT64 >> come >> after this popular applications, situation is totally different. If >> NAT64 is >> deployed on commercial network now, CT¡¯s network traffic will cut down >> 70% >> immediately, and most applications will release a new version for >> IPv6-only >> or NAT64 in the next one year. But it is not a good idea to providers. >>> >>> Best regards, >>> Yang Guoliang >>> >>> ·¢¼þÈË: v4tov6transition-bounces@ietf.org >> [mailto:v4tov6transition-bounces@ietf.org] ´ú±í Yiu L. Lee >>> ·¢ËÍʱ¼ä: 2010Äê8ÔÂ25ÈÕ 22:05 >>> ÊÕ¼þÈË: huang cancan >>> ³­ËÍ: Kurt Erik Lindqvist; IPv6 v6ops; v4tov6transition@ietf.org >>> Ö÷Ìâ: Re: [v4tov6transition] draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC >>> >>> From user¡¯s perspective, do they care IPv4 or IPv6? Most don¡¯t. For >> example: a casual web user wants to access his/her favorite IPv4-only >> website. If his web client and PC support IPv6 and on an IPv6-only >> network >> with NAT64, the web traffic will go through the NAT once. If his web >> client >> and PC support IPv4-only on an IPv4 network with NAT444, the web traffic >> will go through the NAT twice. In the end, he/she still gets the same >> content. From this perspective, both experience ¡°could be¡± very similar. >>> >>> However, this use case is rather limited and not applicable to many >> applications. This is why I said ¡°could be¡±. Also, both Cameron and I >> agree that this is easier to implement IPv6-only on mobile network >> than on >> fixed network because mobile operators have more control over the devices >> and apps. IMHO, it will take longer time for fixed network operators to >> support NAT64 only solution in the network. >>> >>> >>> On 8/25/10 9:41 AM, "huang cancan" wrote: >>> >>> well, I mean: why customer experience of IPv4-only + NAT444 could be the >> same as IPv6-only + NAT64? >>> >>> On Wed, Aug 25, 2010 at 9:24 PM, Yiu L. Lee >> wrote: >>> In order to deploy IPv6-only + NAT64, the client and network must talk >> IPv6. It also requires DNS64. These requirements are not needed for >> IPv4-only + NAT444. From the deployment point of view, they are very >> different technologies. >>> >>> >>> >>> On 8/25/10 7:13 AM, "huang cancan" > > wrote: >>> >>> hi,Yiu: >>> As you mentioned below: >>> > All I am saying is the customer >>> > experience of IPv4-only + NAT444 could be the same as IPv6-only + > >>> NAT64, >> but >>> > the technologies and plan to offer these service are very different. >>> >>> Do you have any test data to support this conclusion? >>> >>> Can-can Huang >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Aug 21, 2010 at 7:37 AM, Yiu L. Lee > > wrote: >>> >>> > Agreed. The 2x cost is really just the packet core ... which is of >>> > course a lot of money to double for no tangible benefit ..... talk >>> > about no business case .... And, still have numbering issues, customer >>> > experience is the same as IPv4-only + NAT44 and approximately the same >>> > as IPv6-only + NAT64 >>> > >>> Life cycle of mobile equipments could be every 2-3 years, but life cycle >> of >>> consumer electronics could be 5+ years. Consider many large TVs with >>> Internet service selling today are still running IPv4-only, fixed line >>> operators must prepare to support them in foreseeable future. >>> >>> That said, I am not saying an operator must build a dual-stack core >> network, >>> there are technologies such as DS-lite and Softwire Mesh available to >>> run >> a >>> pure IPv6 core network with dual-stack edge. All I am saying is the >> customer >>> experience of IPv4-only + NAT444 could be the same as IPv6-only + NAT64, >> but >>> the technologies and plan to offer these service are very different. >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> v4tov6transition mailing list >>> v4tov6transition@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v4tov6transition >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> v4tov6transition mailing list >>> v4tov6transition@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v4tov6transition >> >> _______________________________________________ >> v4tov6transition mailing list >> v4tov6transition@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v4tov6transition >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Behave mailing list > Behave@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/behave > From eoadode7160@comcast.net Tue Aug 31 01:24:50 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E91C33A6956 for ; Tue, 31 Aug 2010 01:24:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -66.283 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-66.283 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, URIBL_BLACK=20, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mVO+3QwXCXsd for ; Tue, 31 Aug 2010 01:24:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from comcast.net (c-76-125-46-253.hsd1.ca.comcast.net [76.125.46.253]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1B933A6783 for ; Tue, 31 Aug 2010 01:24:48 -0700 (PDT) From: "SuperPfizer's e-Shop" To: v6ops-archive@ietf.org Subject: Dear v6ops-archive 77% Off. defeated Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2010 01:24:28 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-Id: <20100831082448.A1B933A6783@core3.amsl.com> Newsletter
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The concert was recorded on May 21, 2001.
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Cycling News, December 1999, Race organisers support superleague.
The Communist Party has sought to play an active role in the US labor movement since its origins as part of its effort to build a mass movement of American workers to bring about their own liberation through socialist revolution.
Rik van Steenbergen of Belgium led in the bunch after a stage of 340km from Nancy.
In more recent years, legspinner Anil Kumble (now retired) and, in fewer instances, offspinner Harbhajan Singh (currently playing), have created match-winning circumstances for India, both at home and abroad.
A b "A peaceful Europe - the beginnings of cooperation".
Overall, the Phase I data demonstrated that high doses of human neural stem cells, delivered by a direct transplantation procedure into multiple sites within the brain, followed by twelve months of immunosuppression, were well tolerated by all six patients enrolled in the trial.
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 From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Aug 31 09:11:33 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A750A3A689B for ; Tue, 31 Aug 2010 09:11:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.151 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.151 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.616, BAYES_40=-0.185, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id u3UAfrEm5vsE for ; Tue, 31 Aug 2010 09:11:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97A313A6827 for ; Tue, 31 Aug 2010 09:11:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OqTMO-000F2C-Lj for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Tue, 31 Aug 2010 16:06:56 +0000 Received: from smtp23.services.sfr.fr ([93.17.128.21]) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OqTMI-000F1Q-3u for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 31 Aug 2010 16:06:50 +0000 Received: from filter.sfr.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by msfrf2313.sfr.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 024B570000A5; Tue, 31 Aug 2010 18:06:47 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.0.20] (per92-10-88-166-221-144.fbx.proxad.net [88.166.221.144]) by msfrf2313.sfr.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 61BD070000A3; Tue, 31 Aug 2010 18:06:45 +0200 (CEST) X-SFR-UUID: 20100831160646400.61BD070000A3@msfrf2313.sfr.fr Subject: Re: draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1081) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?R=E9mi_Despr=E9s?= In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2010 18:06:45 +0200 Cc: Cameron Byrne , IPv6 v6ops Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <58F090EC-8F09-4E49-B072-3FE45A8EEA0A@free.fr> References: <018544C5-8D1E-412A-B6E4-F12623E66366@cisco.com> <00C0B23A-EF43-49BA-953C-695CC3FE6CB0@cisco.com> To: Randy Bush X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1081) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: Le 19 ao=FBt 2010 =E0 08:09, Randy Bush a =E9crit : > from 10,000m, what is 6rd but a teredo/6to4 that colludes with the > provider who won't do real v6? it's a cute hack, but a hack. Descending to 100m, one can see that, unlike Teredo and 6to4, 6rd = provides native IPv6 prefixes to customer sites, unlike Teredo and 6to4: - Hosts behind a 6rd CPE are on a dual-stack LAN, and can't determine = whether the ISP network is dual stack throughout or 6rd. - =46rom 6rd sites, connectivity with other IPv6 native addresses is = guaranteed, which is the case with neither Teredo nor 6to4. You told me once that, for you, "hack" had no negative connotation. Then, "cute hack" can nicely be taken positively, thanks ;-). Cheers, RD PS: Note that I have absolutely no financial interest in any of its = actual applications, just being proud of having originated a useful = mechanism.= From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Aug 31 09:33:25 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E7933A69DF for ; Tue, 31 Aug 2010 09:33:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -11.111 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-11.111 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.412, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_13=0.6, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Yhy4eNEQ6Hl5 for ; Tue, 31 Aug 2010 09:33:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 035263A6A4A for ; Tue, 31 Aug 2010 09:33:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OqTkP-000JhB-49 for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Tue, 31 Aug 2010 16:31:45 +0000 Received: from rtp-iport-1.cisco.com ([64.102.122.148]) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OqTkI-000JgX-IB for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 31 Aug 2010 16:31:38 +0000 Authentication-Results: rtp-iport-1.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AvsEAKvKfExAZnwN/2dsb2JhbACgV3GkBZwOhTcEjQw X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.56,299,1280707200"; d="scan'208";a="153734819" Received: from rtp-core-2.cisco.com ([64.102.124.13]) by rtp-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 31 Aug 2010 16:31:37 +0000 Received: from xbh-ams-201.cisco.com (xbh-ams-201.cisco.com [144.254.75.7]) by rtp-core-2.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o7VGVaBs001552; Tue, 31 Aug 2010 16:31:37 GMT Received: from xmb-ams-101.cisco.com ([144.254.74.76]) by xbh-ams-201.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Tue, 31 Aug 2010 18:31:36 +0200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2010 18:31:34 +0200 Message-ID: <4269EA985EACD24987D82DAE2FEC62E5021A96B3@XMB-AMS-101.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <58F090EC-8F09-4E49-B072-3FE45A8EEA0A@free.fr> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC Thread-Index: ActJJ/yIZCH984HwSMKoCQZuXeXYtgAAcFcw References: <018544C5-8D1E-412A-B6E4-F12623E66366@cisco.com> <00C0B23A-EF43-49BA-953C-695CC3FE6CB0@cisco.com> <58F090EC-8F09-4E49-B072-3FE45A8EEA0A@free.fr> From: "Gunter Van de Velde (gvandeve)" To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?R=E9mi_Despr=E9s?= , "Randy Bush" Cc: "Cameron Byrne" , "IPv6 v6ops" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 31 Aug 2010 16:31:36.0561 (UTC) FILETIME=[FB1C3E10:01CB4929] Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: Next to that... teredo and 6to4 are non-managed services, while 6rd is a = managed service... big difference for the user experience. http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-vandevelde-v6ops-harmful-tunnels-01 G/ -----Original Message----- From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] On = Behalf Of R=E9mi Despr=E9s Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2010 6:07 PM To: Randy Bush Cc: Cameron Byrne; IPv6 v6ops Subject: Re: draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC Le 19 ao=FBt 2010 =E0 08:09, Randy Bush a =E9crit : > from 10,000m, what is 6rd but a teredo/6to4 that colludes with the > provider who won't do real v6? it's a cute hack, but a hack. Descending to 100m, one can see that, unlike Teredo and 6to4, 6rd = provides native IPv6 prefixes to customer sites, unlike Teredo and 6to4: - Hosts behind a 6rd CPE are on a dual-stack LAN, and can't determine = whether the ISP network is dual stack throughout or 6rd. - From 6rd sites, connectivity with other IPv6 native addresses is = guaranteed, which is the case with neither Teredo nor 6to4. You told me once that, for you, "hack" had no negative connotation. Then, "cute hack" can nicely be taken positively, thanks ;-). Cheers, RD PS: Note that I have absolutely no financial interest in any of its = actual applications, just being proud of having originated a useful = mechanism. From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Aug 31 09:54:58 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A2263A6A43 for ; Tue, 31 Aug 2010 09:54:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -99.112 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-99.112 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.308, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_HU=1.35, HOST_EQ_HU=1.245, J_CHICKENPOX_13=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_21=0.6, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id E7358i6cTlgZ for ; Tue, 31 Aug 2010 09:54:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55BD53A6A3F for ; Tue, 31 Aug 2010 09:54:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OqU5f-000Nin-HQ for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Tue, 31 Aug 2010 16:53:43 +0000 Received: from mail.ki.iif.hu ([2001:738:0:411::241]) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OqU5Z-000Nhk-8w for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 31 Aug 2010 16:53:37 +0000 Received: from cirkusz.lvs.iif.hu (cirkusz.lvs.iif.hu [193.225.14.182]) by mail.ki.iif.hu (Postfix) with ESMTP id E13EE85159; Tue, 31 Aug 2010 18:53:34 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at cirkusz.lvs.iif.hu Received: from mail.ki.iif.hu ([IPv6:::ffff:193.6.222.241]) by cirkusz.lvs.iif.hu (cirkusz.lvs.iif.hu [::ffff:193.225.14.72]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vkxUGFNZmx+T; Tue, 31 Aug 2010 18:53:28 +0200 (CEST) Received: by mail.ki.iif.hu (Postfix, from userid 9002) id 696FB85297; Tue, 31 Aug 2010 18:53:28 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.ki.iif.hu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67AA185291; Tue, 31 Aug 2010 18:53:28 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2010 18:53:28 +0200 (CEST) From: Mohacsi Janos X-X-Sender: mohacsi@mignon.ki.iif.hu To: "Gunter Van de Velde (gvandeve)" cc: =?ISO-8859-15?Q?R=E9mi_Despr=E9s?= , Randy Bush , Cameron Byrne , IPv6 v6ops Subject: RE: draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC In-Reply-To: <4269EA985EACD24987D82DAE2FEC62E5021A96B3@XMB-AMS-101.cisco.com> Message-ID: References: <018544C5-8D1E-412A-B6E4-F12623E66366@cisco.com> <00C0B23A-EF43-49BA-953C-695CC3FE6CB0@cisco.com> <58F090EC-8F09-4E49-B072-3FE45A8EEA0A@free.fr> <4269EA985EACD24987D82DAE2FEC62E5021A96B3@XMB-AMS-101.cisco.com> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (BSF 1167 2008-08-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: MULTIPART/MIXED; BOUNDARY="0-295855370-1283273608=:46553" Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. --0-295855370-1283273608=:46553 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT On Tue, 31 Aug 2010, Gunter Van de Velde (gvandeve) wrote: > Next to that... teredo and 6to4 are non-managed services, while 6rd is a managed service... big difference for the user experience. > > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-vandevelde-v6ops-harmful-tunnels-01 What do you mean about managed service? I think 6to4 and teredo can be managed.... Best Regards, Janos Mohacsi > > G/ > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Rémi Després > Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2010 6:07 PM > To: Randy Bush > Cc: Cameron Byrne; IPv6 v6ops > Subject: Re: draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC > > > Le 19 ao?t 2010 ? 08:09, Randy Bush a écrit : > >> from 10,000m, what is 6rd but a teredo/6to4 that colludes with the >> provider who won't do real v6? it's a cute hack, but a hack. > > Descending to 100m, one can see that, unlike Teredo and 6to4, 6rd provides native IPv6 prefixes to customer sites, unlike Teredo and 6to4: > - Hosts behind a 6rd CPE are on a dual-stack LAN, and can't determine whether the ISP network is dual stack throughout or 6rd. > - From 6rd sites, connectivity with other IPv6 native addresses is guaranteed, which is the case with neither Teredo nor 6to4. > > You told me once that, for you, "hack" had no negative connotation. > Then, "cute hack" can nicely be taken positively, thanks ;-). > > Cheers, > RD > > PS: Note that I have absolutely no financial interest in any of its actual applications, just being proud of having originated a useful mechanism. > > > --0-295855370-1283273608=:46553-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Aug 31 10:23:41 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 350503A68DF for ; Tue, 31 Aug 2010 10:23:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.255 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.255 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.856, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_13=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_21=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xaRrg82nZEuL for ; Tue, 31 Aug 2010 10:23:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B74A13A683C for ; Tue, 31 Aug 2010 10:23:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OqUWG-0003cE-EO for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Tue, 31 Aug 2010 17:21:12 +0000 Received: from rtp-iport-1.cisco.com ([64.102.122.148]) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OqUW9-0003Ux-RK for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 31 Aug 2010 17:21:06 +0000 Authentication-Results: rtp-iport-1.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AvsEAGTWfEytJV2Y/2dsb2JhbACgV3GkI5wQhTcEjQw X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.56,299,1280707200"; d="scan'208";a="153757594" Received: from rcdn-core-1.cisco.com ([173.37.93.152]) by rtp-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 31 Aug 2010 17:21:04 +0000 Received: from xbh-ams-101.cisco.com (xbh-ams-101.cisco.com [144.254.74.71]) by rcdn-core-1.cisco.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o7VHL2YD030756; Tue, 31 Aug 2010 17:21:03 GMT Received: from xmb-ams-101.cisco.com ([144.254.74.76]) by xbh-ams-101.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Tue, 31 Aug 2010 19:21:03 +0200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2010 19:21:02 +0200 Message-ID: <4269EA985EACD24987D82DAE2FEC62E5021A96D4@XMB-AMS-101.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC Thread-Index: ActJLRepx8EMDgC1SgCg0WJbqsmKpgAA5vGw References: <018544C5-8D1E-412A-B6E4-F12623E66366@cisco.com> <00C0B23A-EF43-49BA-953C-695CC3FE6CB0@cisco.com> <58F090EC-8F09-4E49-B072-3FE45A8EEA0A@free.fr> <4269EA985EACD24987D82DAE2FEC62E5021A96B3@XMB-AMS-101.cisco.com> From: "Gunter Van de Velde (gvandeve)" To: "Mohacsi Janos" Cc: =?iso-8859-1?Q?R=E9mi_Despr=E9s?= , "Randy Bush" , "Cameron Byrne" , "IPv6 v6ops" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 31 Aug 2010 17:21:03.0142 (UTC) FILETIME=[E3549460:01CB4930] Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: Can be mananaged... but... if you use 6to4, then do you know the person = running the relays? Do you even know who is running the relays? And why = should the people running the relays care about you if you are not there = direct customer? G/ -----Original Message----- From: Mohacsi Janos [mailto:mohacsi@niif.hu]=20 Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2010 6:53 PM To: Gunter Van de Velde (gvandeve) Cc: R=E9mi Despr=E9s; Randy Bush; Cameron Byrne; IPv6 v6ops Subject: RE: draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC On Tue, 31 Aug 2010, Gunter Van de Velde (gvandeve) wrote: > Next to that... teredo and 6to4 are non-managed services, while 6rd is = a managed service... big difference for the user experience. > > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-vandevelde-v6ops-harmful-tunnels-01 What do you mean about managed service? I think 6to4 and teredo can be=20 managed.... Best Regards, Janos Mohacsi > > G/ > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] On = Behalf Of R=E9mi Despr=E9s > Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2010 6:07 PM > To: Randy Bush > Cc: Cameron Byrne; IPv6 v6ops > Subject: Re: draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC > > > Le 19 ao?t 2010 ? 08:09, Randy Bush a =E9crit : > >> from 10,000m, what is 6rd but a teredo/6to4 that colludes with the >> provider who won't do real v6? it's a cute hack, but a hack. > > Descending to 100m, one can see that, unlike Teredo and 6to4, 6rd = provides native IPv6 prefixes to customer sites, unlike Teredo and 6to4: > - Hosts behind a 6rd CPE are on a dual-stack LAN, and can't determine = whether the ISP network is dual stack throughout or 6rd. > - From 6rd sites, connectivity with other IPv6 native addresses is = guaranteed, which is the case with neither Teredo nor 6to4. > > You told me once that, for you, "hack" had no negative connotation. > Then, "cute hack" can nicely be taken positively, thanks ;-). > > Cheers, > RD > > PS: Note that I have absolutely no financial interest in any of its = actual applications, just being proud of having originated a useful = mechanism. > > > From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Aug 31 10:36:26 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7D9F3A68DC for ; Tue, 31 Aug 2010 10:36:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -99.073 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-99.073 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.269, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_HU=1.35, HOST_EQ_HU=1.245, J_CHICKENPOX_13=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_21=0.6, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FVPmWVkET5H2 for ; Tue, 31 Aug 2010 10:36:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0EF6A3A6838 for ; Tue, 31 Aug 2010 10:36:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OqUjg-00067U-Ib for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Tue, 31 Aug 2010 17:35:04 +0000 Received: from mail.ki.iif.hu ([2001:738:0:411::241]) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OqUjZ-00066V-GG for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 31 Aug 2010 17:34:58 +0000 Received: from cirkusz.lvs.iif.hu (cirkusz.lvs.iif.hu [193.225.14.182]) by mail.ki.iif.hu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F66A85239; Tue, 31 Aug 2010 19:34:55 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at cirkusz.lvs.iif.hu Received: from mail.ki.iif.hu ([IPv6:::ffff:193.6.222.241]) by cirkusz.lvs.iif.hu (cirkusz.lvs.iif.hu [::ffff:193.225.14.72]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id g0ayMY0fNtfX; Tue, 31 Aug 2010 19:34:48 +0200 (CEST) Received: by mail.ki.iif.hu (Postfix, from userid 9002) id 301538521F; Tue, 31 Aug 2010 19:34:48 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.ki.iif.hu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E19B8514E; Tue, 31 Aug 2010 19:34:48 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2010 19:34:48 +0200 (CEST) From: Mohacsi Janos X-X-Sender: mohacsi@mignon.ki.iif.hu To: "Gunter Van de Velde (gvandeve)" cc: =?ISO-8859-15?Q?R=E9mi_Despr=E9s?= , Randy Bush , Cameron Byrne , IPv6 v6ops Subject: RE: draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC In-Reply-To: <4269EA985EACD24987D82DAE2FEC62E5021A96D4@XMB-AMS-101.cisco.com> Message-ID: References: <018544C5-8D1E-412A-B6E4-F12623E66366@cisco.com> <00C0B23A-EF43-49BA-953C-695CC3FE6CB0@cisco.com> <58F090EC-8F09-4E49-B072-3FE45A8EEA0A@free.fr> <4269EA985EACD24987D82DAE2FEC62E5021A96B3@XMB-AMS-101.cisco.com> <4269EA985EACD24987D82DAE2FEC62E5021A96D4@XMB-AMS-101.cisco.com> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (BSF 1167 2008-08-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: MULTIPART/MIXED; BOUNDARY="0-613808874-1283276088=:46553" Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. --0-613808874-1283276088=:46553 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT On Tue, 31 Aug 2010, Gunter Van de Velde (gvandeve) wrote: > Can be mananaged... but... if you use 6to4, then do you know the person > running the relays? Do you even know who is running the relays? And why > should the people running the relays care about you if you are not there > direct customer? If a provider is encouraging to use 6to4, it will provide 6to4 relay for their customers: announcing anycast 6to4 relay address to them (probably only for them). Provider is monitoring operational status of 6to4 relay, traffic volume etc. plus help debugging MTU problems... Yes I know, this is can be done only for outgoing direction.... But if every 6to4 relay provider would be doing the same.... For example I used to know who is running the 6to4 relay used by me...(me and network operation team). For 1.5 years I don't care much about 6to4 relay anymore since I am using native IPv6 both at home and at work. Best Regards, Janos Mohacsi > > G/ > > -----Original Message----- > From: Mohacsi Janos [mailto:mohacsi@niif.hu] > Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2010 6:53 PM > To: Gunter Van de Velde (gvandeve) > Cc: Rémi Després; Randy Bush; Cameron Byrne; IPv6 v6ops > Subject: RE: draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC > > > > > On Tue, 31 Aug 2010, Gunter Van de Velde (gvandeve) wrote: > >> Next to that... teredo and 6to4 are non-managed services, while 6rd is a managed service... big difference for the user experience. >> >> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-vandevelde-v6ops-harmful-tunnels-01 > > What do you mean about managed service? I think 6to4 and teredo can be > managed.... > > Best Regards, > Janos Mohacsi > >> >> G/ >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Rémi Després >> Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2010 6:07 PM >> To: Randy Bush >> Cc: Cameron Byrne; IPv6 v6ops >> Subject: Re: draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC >> >> >> Le 19 ao?t 2010 ? 08:09, Randy Bush a écrit : >> >>> from 10,000m, what is 6rd but a teredo/6to4 that colludes with the >>> provider who won't do real v6? it's a cute hack, but a hack. >> >> Descending to 100m, one can see that, unlike Teredo and 6to4, 6rd provides native IPv6 prefixes to customer sites, unlike Teredo and 6to4: >> - Hosts behind a 6rd CPE are on a dual-stack LAN, and can't determine whether the ISP network is dual stack throughout or 6rd. >> - From 6rd sites, connectivity with other IPv6 native addresses is guaranteed, which is the case with neither Teredo nor 6to4. >> >> You told me once that, for you, "hack" had no negative connotation. >> Then, "cute hack" can nicely be taken positively, thanks ;-). >> >> Cheers, >> RD >> >> PS: Note that I have absolutely no financial interest in any of its actual applications, just being proud of having originated a useful mechanism. >> >> >> > --0-613808874-1283276088=:46553-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Aug 31 10:39:19 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16FBF3A699A for ; Tue, 31 Aug 2010 10:39:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.97 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.97 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.571, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_13=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_21=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BLxs4IR+c6+Q for ; Tue, 31 Aug 2010 10:39:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CC6A3A6A7B for ; Tue, 31 Aug 2010 10:39:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OqUnS-0006uB-3W for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Tue, 31 Aug 2010 17:38:58 +0000 Received: from rtp-iport-1.cisco.com ([64.102.122.148]) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OqUnK-0006tM-T4 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 31 Aug 2010 17:38:51 +0000 Authentication-Results: rtp-iport-1.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AvsEABPbfExAZnwN/2dsb2JhbACgV3GkOJwNhTcEjQw X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.56,299,1280707200"; d="scan'208";a="153765497" Received: from rtp-core-2.cisco.com ([64.102.124.13]) by rtp-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 31 Aug 2010 17:38:49 +0000 Received: from xbh-ams-201.cisco.com (xbh-ams-201.cisco.com [144.254.75.7]) by rtp-core-2.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o7VHcnuI026033; Tue, 31 Aug 2010 17:38:49 GMT Received: from xmb-ams-101.cisco.com ([144.254.74.76]) by xbh-ams-201.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Tue, 31 Aug 2010 19:38:49 +0200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Non-Managed tunnl services [WAS: RE: draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC] Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2010 19:38:48 +0200 Message-ID: <4269EA985EACD24987D82DAE2FEC62E5021A96E1@XMB-AMS-101.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Non-Managed tunnl services [WAS: RE: draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC] Thread-Index: ActJMuHY6LlKxeXOR8ipuH206XjjbwAABoNw References: <018544C5-8D1E-412A-B6E4-F12623E66366@cisco.com> <00C0B23A-EF43-49BA-953C-695CC3FE6CB0@cisco.com> <58F090EC-8F09-4E49-B072-3FE45A8EEA0A@free.fr> <4269EA985EACD24987D82DAE2FEC62E5021A96B3@XMB-AMS-101.cisco.com> <4269EA985EACD24987D82DAE2FEC62E5021A96D4@XMB-AMS-101.cisco.com> From: "Gunter Van de Velde (gvandeve)" To: "Mohacsi Janos" Cc: =?iso-8859-1?Q?R=E9mi_Despr=E9s?= , "Randy Bush" , "Cameron Byrne" , "IPv6 v6ops" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 31 Aug 2010 17:38:49.0055 (UTC) FILETIME=[5EA9FEF0:01CB4933] Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: The thing is... you can't control the return path... so its non-managed = and one relies upon the good-will of other people to have a good = behaving 6to4 relay. It may work now, and I do know people being super happy with 6to4, but = if there would be 10000 people using same relay, the service may be = degraded if it is just a sponsored service with revenue... It is a = result of business reality. G/ -----Original Message----- From: Mohacsi Janos [mailto:mohacsi@niif.hu]=20 Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2010 7:35 PM To: Gunter Van de Velde (gvandeve) Cc: R=E9mi Despr=E9s; Randy Bush; Cameron Byrne; IPv6 v6ops Subject: RE: draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC On Tue, 31 Aug 2010, Gunter Van de Velde (gvandeve) wrote: > Can be mananaged... but... if you use 6to4, then do you know the = person=20 > running the relays? Do you even know who is running the relays? And = why=20 > should the people running the relays care about you if you are not = there=20 > direct customer? If a provider is encouraging to use 6to4, it will provide 6to4 relay for = their customers: announcing anycast 6to4 relay address to them (probably = only for them). Provider is monitoring operational status of 6to4 relay, = traffic volume etc. plus help debugging MTU problems... Yes I know, this = is can be done only for outgoing direction.... But if every 6to4 relay=20 provider would be doing the same.... For example I used to know who is running the 6to4 relay used by = me...(me=20 and network operation team). For 1.5 years I don't care much about 6to4 = relay anymore since I am using native IPv6 both at home and at work. Best Regards, Janos Mohacsi > > G/ > > -----Original Message----- > From: Mohacsi Janos [mailto:mohacsi@niif.hu] > Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2010 6:53 PM > To: Gunter Van de Velde (gvandeve) > Cc: R=E9mi Despr=E9s; Randy Bush; Cameron Byrne; IPv6 v6ops > Subject: RE: draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC > > > > > On Tue, 31 Aug 2010, Gunter Van de Velde (gvandeve) wrote: > >> Next to that... teredo and 6to4 are non-managed services, while 6rd = is a managed service... big difference for the user experience. >> >> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-vandevelde-v6ops-harmful-tunnels-01 > > What do you mean about managed service? I think 6to4 and teredo can be > managed.... > > Best Regards, > Janos Mohacsi > >> >> G/ >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] On = Behalf Of R=E9mi Despr=E9s >> Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2010 6:07 PM >> To: Randy Bush >> Cc: Cameron Byrne; IPv6 v6ops >> Subject: Re: draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC >> >> >> Le 19 ao?t 2010 ? 08:09, Randy Bush a =E9crit : >> >>> from 10,000m, what is 6rd but a teredo/6to4 that colludes with the >>> provider who won't do real v6? it's a cute hack, but a hack. >> >> Descending to 100m, one can see that, unlike Teredo and 6to4, 6rd = provides native IPv6 prefixes to customer sites, unlike Teredo and 6to4: >> - Hosts behind a 6rd CPE are on a dual-stack LAN, and can't determine = whether the ISP network is dual stack throughout or 6rd. >> - From 6rd sites, connectivity with other IPv6 native addresses is = guaranteed, which is the case with neither Teredo nor 6to4. >> >> You told me once that, for you, "hack" had no negative connotation. >> Then, "cute hack" can nicely be taken positively, thanks ;-). >> >> Cheers, >> RD >> >> PS: Note that I have absolutely no financial interest in any of its = actual applications, just being proud of having originated a useful = mechanism. >> >> >> > From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Aug 31 10:44:14 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6FF93A6842 for ; Tue, 31 Aug 2010 10:44:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -99.044 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-99.044 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.239, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_HU=1.35, HOST_EQ_HU=1.245, J_CHICKENPOX_13=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_21=0.6, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MAL-IwlN2Y2x for ; Tue, 31 Aug 2010 10:44:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D8D13A6840 for ; Tue, 31 Aug 2010 10:44:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OqUs6-0007vJ-AN for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Tue, 31 Aug 2010 17:43:46 +0000 Received: from mail.ki.iif.hu ([2001:738:0:411::241]) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OqUrz-0007uL-3w for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 31 Aug 2010 17:43:39 +0000 Received: from bolha.lvs.iif.hu (bolha.lvs.iif.hu [193.225.14.181]) by mail.ki.iif.hu (Postfix) with ESMTP id D793C85299; Tue, 31 Aug 2010 19:43:36 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at bolha.lvs.iif.hu Received: from mail.ki.iif.hu ([IPv6:::ffff:193.6.222.241]) by bolha.lvs.iif.hu (bolha.lvs.iif.hu [::ffff:193.225.14.72]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 82dB7Kk744a1; Tue, 31 Aug 2010 19:43:30 +0200 (CEST) Received: by mail.ki.iif.hu (Postfix, from userid 9002) id 2F02085239; Tue, 31 Aug 2010 19:43:30 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.ki.iif.hu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C5088521F; Tue, 31 Aug 2010 19:43:30 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2010 19:43:30 +0200 (CEST) From: Mohacsi Janos X-X-Sender: mohacsi@mignon.ki.iif.hu To: "Gunter Van de Velde (gvandeve)" cc: =?ISO-8859-15?Q?R=E9mi_Despr=E9s?= , Randy Bush , Cameron Byrne , IPv6 v6ops Subject: Re: Non-Managed tunnl services [WAS: RE: draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC] In-Reply-To: <4269EA985EACD24987D82DAE2FEC62E5021A96E1@XMB-AMS-101.cisco.com> Message-ID: References: <018544C5-8D1E-412A-B6E4-F12623E66366@cisco.com> <00C0B23A-EF43-49BA-953C-695CC3FE6CB0@cisco.com> <58F090EC-8F09-4E49-B072-3FE45A8EEA0A@free.fr> <4269EA985EACD24987D82DAE2FEC62E5021A96B3@XMB-AMS-101.cisco.com> <4269EA985EACD24987D82DAE2FEC62E5021A96D4@XMB-AMS-101.cisco.com> <4269EA985EACD24987D82DAE2FEC62E5021A96E1@XMB-AMS-101.cisco.com> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (BSF 1167 2008-08-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: MULTIPART/MIXED; BOUNDARY="0-1116040593-1283276610=:46553" Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. --0-1116040593-1283276610=:46553 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT On Tue, 31 Aug 2010, Gunter Van de Velde (gvandeve) wrote: > The thing is... you can't control the return path... so its non-managed > and one relies upon the good-will of other people to have a good > behaving 6to4 relay. Yes I know as I wrote. But if every 6to4 relay operator cares about the service.... > > It may work now, and I do know people being super happy with 6to4, but > if there would be 10000 people using same relay, the service may be > degraded if it is just a sponsored service with revenue... It is a > result of business reality. Same for any relay. As you might notice you announce your 6to4 relay only for your customers.... And you monitor the operational status of your 6to4 relay, if ther is a need you deploy more.... Best Regards, Janos > > G/ > > -----Original Message----- > From: Mohacsi Janos [mailto:mohacsi@niif.hu] > Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2010 7:35 PM > To: Gunter Van de Velde (gvandeve) > Cc: Rémi Després; Randy Bush; Cameron Byrne; IPv6 v6ops > Subject: RE: draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC > > > > > On Tue, 31 Aug 2010, Gunter Van de Velde (gvandeve) wrote: > >> Can be mananaged... but... if you use 6to4, then do you know the person >> running the relays? Do you even know who is running the relays? And why >> should the people running the relays care about you if you are not there >> direct customer? > > If a provider is encouraging to use 6to4, it will provide 6to4 relay for > their customers: announcing anycast 6to4 relay address to them (probably > only for them). Provider is monitoring operational status of 6to4 relay, > traffic volume etc. plus help debugging MTU problems... Yes I know, this > is can be done only for outgoing direction.... But if every 6to4 relay > provider would be doing the same.... > > For example I used to know who is running the 6to4 relay used by me...(me > and network operation team). For 1.5 years I don't care much about 6to4 > relay anymore since I am using native IPv6 both at home and at work. > > Best Regards, > Janos Mohacsi > > >> >> G/ >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Mohacsi Janos [mailto:mohacsi@niif.hu] >> Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2010 6:53 PM >> To: Gunter Van de Velde (gvandeve) >> Cc: Rémi Després; Randy Bush; Cameron Byrne; IPv6 v6ops >> Subject: RE: draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, 31 Aug 2010, Gunter Van de Velde (gvandeve) wrote: >> >>> Next to that... teredo and 6to4 are non-managed services, while 6rd is a managed service... big difference for the user experience. >>> >>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-vandevelde-v6ops-harmful-tunnels-01 >> >> What do you mean about managed service? I think 6to4 and teredo can be >> managed.... >> >> Best Regards, >> Janos Mohacsi >> >>> >>> G/ >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Rémi Després >>> Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2010 6:07 PM >>> To: Randy Bush >>> Cc: Cameron Byrne; IPv6 v6ops >>> Subject: Re: draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC >>> >>> >>> Le 19 ao?t 2010 ? 08:09, Randy Bush a écrit : >>> >>>> from 10,000m, what is 6rd but a teredo/6to4 that colludes with the >>>> provider who won't do real v6? it's a cute hack, but a hack. >>> >>> Descending to 100m, one can see that, unlike Teredo and 6to4, 6rd provides native IPv6 prefixes to customer sites, unlike Teredo and 6to4: >>> - Hosts behind a 6rd CPE are on a dual-stack LAN, and can't determine whether the ISP network is dual stack throughout or 6rd. >>> - From 6rd sites, connectivity with other IPv6 native addresses is guaranteed, which is the case with neither Teredo nor 6to4. >>> >>> You told me once that, for you, "hack" had no negative connotation. >>> Then, "cute hack" can nicely be taken positively, thanks ;-). >>> >>> Cheers, >>> RD >>> >>> PS: Note that I have absolutely no financial interest in any of its actual applications, just being proud of having originated a useful mechanism. >>> >>> >>> >> > --0-1116040593-1283276610=:46553-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Aug 31 10:52:28 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 409E63A684B for ; Tue, 31 Aug 2010 10:52:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ah7dJuS1Ag91 for ; Tue, 31 Aug 2010 10:52:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D7E83A6847 for ; Tue, 31 Aug 2010 10:52:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OqUzV-0009ap-2C for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Tue, 31 Aug 2010 17:51:25 +0000 Received: from mobil.space.net ([2001:608:2:81::2]) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OqUzO-0009XK-76 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 31 Aug 2010 17:51:18 +0000 Received: from mobil.space.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mobil.space.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B14CF81E3 for ; Tue, 31 Aug 2010 19:51:16 +0200 (CEST) X-SpaceNet-Relay: true Received: from moebius3.space.net (moebius3.Space.Net [IPv6:2001:608:2:2::250]) by mobil.space.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 635BBF81F9 for ; Tue, 31 Aug 2010 19:51:16 +0200 (CEST) Received: (qmail 8421 invoked by uid 1007); 31 Aug 2010 19:51:16 +0200 Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2010 19:51:16 +0200 From: Gert Doering To: Mohacsi Janos Cc: "Gunter Van de Velde \(gvandeve\)" , =?iso-8859-1?Q?R=E9mi_Despr=E9s?= , Randy Bush , Cameron Byrne , IPv6 v6ops Subject: Re: draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC Message-ID: <20100831175116.GY61734@Space.Net> References: <018544C5-8D1E-412A-B6E4-F12623E66366@cisco.com> <00C0B23A-EF43-49BA-953C-695CC3FE6CB0@cisco.com> <58F090EC-8F09-4E49-B072-3FE45A8EEA0A@free.fr> <4269EA985EACD24987D82DAE2FEC62E5021A96B3@XMB-AMS-101.cisco.com> <4269EA985EACD24987D82DAE2FEC62E5021A96D4@XMB-AMS-101.cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-NCC-RegID: de.space User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: Hi, On Tue, Aug 31, 2010 at 07:34:48PM +0200, Mohacsi Janos wrote: > On Tue, 31 Aug 2010, Gunter Van de Velde (gvandeve) wrote: > > Can be mananaged... but... if you use 6to4, then do you know the person > > running the relays? Do you even know who is running the relays? And why > > should the people running the relays care about you if you are not there > > direct customer? > > If a provider is encouraging to use 6to4, it will provide 6to4 relay for > their customers: announcing anycast 6to4 relay address to them (probably > only for them). Provider is monitoring operational status of 6to4 relay, And the response traffic takes this relay, because...? > traffic volume etc. plus help debugging MTU problems... Yes I know, this > is can be done only for outgoing direction.... But if every 6to4 relay > provider would be doing the same.... "If". But this is not so, and therefore, 6to4 with anycast relay is just not something that makes sense for global traffic. > For example I used to know who is running the 6to4 relay used by me...(me > and network operation team). For 1.5 years I don't care much about 6to4 > relay anymore since I am using native IPv6 both at home and at work. Our (well-maintained!!) 6to4 relay works very well for traffic between our users and our IPv6-enabled machines - but as soon as the users have native IPv6, no more need for the relay... Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- Total number of prefixes smaller than registry allocations: 155817 SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (89) 32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Aug 31 12:24:29 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE1813A69E3 for ; Tue, 31 Aug 2010 12:24:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.863 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.863 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.136, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_13=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xzX2n3xjgq1v for ; Tue, 31 Aug 2010 12:24:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44F893A6A69 for ; Tue, 31 Aug 2010 12:24:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OqWNa-0000qE-Gw for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Tue, 31 Aug 2010 19:20:22 +0000 Received: from stl-smtpout-01.boeing.com ([130.76.96.56]) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OqWNT-0000pd-BE; Tue, 31 Aug 2010 19:20:15 +0000 Received: from slb-av-01.boeing.com (slb-av-01.boeing.com [129.172.13.4]) by stl-smtpout-01.ns.cs.boeing.com (8.14.4/8.14.4/8.14.4/SMTPOUT) with ESMTP id o7VJJnsI024456 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 31 Aug 2010 14:19:52 -0500 (CDT) Received: from slb-av-01.boeing.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by slb-av-01.boeing.com (8.14.4/8.14.4/DOWNSTREAM_RELAY) with ESMTP id o7VJJnxQ008383; Tue, 31 Aug 2010 12:19:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from XCH-NWHT-09.nw.nos.boeing.com (xch-nwht-09.nw.nos.boeing.com [130.247.25.115]) by slb-av-01.boeing.com (8.14.4/8.14.4/UPSTREAM_RELAY) with ESMTP id o7VJJnaX008362 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=OK); Tue, 31 Aug 2010 12:19:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from XCH-NW-01V.nw.nos.boeing.com ([130.247.64.120]) by XCH-NWHT-09.nw.nos.boeing.com ([130.247.25.115]) with mapi; Tue, 31 Aug 2010 12:19:49 -0700 From: "Templin, Fred L" To: Gert Doering , Mohacsi Janos CC: "Gunter Van de Velde (gvandeve)" , =?iso-8859-1?Q?R=E9mi_Despr=E9s?= , Randy Bush , Cameron Byrne , IPv6 v6ops Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2010 12:19:47 -0700 Subject: RE: draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC Thread-Topic: draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC Thread-Index: ActJNjBxUeiNfETGQp6bPUlfoNMkQgACgccg Message-ID: References: <018544C5-8D1E-412A-B6E4-F12623E66366@cisco.com><00C0B23A-EF43-49BA-953C-695C C3FE6CB0@cisco.com><58F090EC-8F09-4E49-B072-3FE45A8EEA0A@fr ee.fr><4269EA985EACD24987D82DAE2FEC62E5021A96B3@XMB-AMS-101.cisco.com><4269EA985EACD24987D82DAE2 FEC62E5021A96D4@XMB-AMS-101.cisco.com> <20100831175116.GY61734@Space.Net> In-Reply-To: <20100831175116.GY61734@Space.Net> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: This whole thread reminds me of the Adventure endgame where it says "CAVE DOOR CLOSING" - the end of all things and time to take inventory. We have gathered 6to4, teredo, 6rd, and maybe even a little isatap and tunnel broker in our collective treasure bag. Now mix them all up, shake well, and what pops out is the Internet Routing Overlay Network (IRON). Fred fred.l.templin@boeing.com=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] On Behal= f Of Gert Doering > Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2010 10:51 AM > To: Mohacsi Janos > Cc: Gunter Van de Velde (gvandeve); R=E9mi Despr=E9s; Randy Bush; Cameron= Byrne; IPv6 v6ops > Subject: Re: draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC >=20 > Hi, >=20 > On Tue, Aug 31, 2010 at 07:34:48PM +0200, Mohacsi Janos wrote: > > On Tue, 31 Aug 2010, Gunter Van de Velde (gvandeve) wrote: > > > Can be mananaged... but... if you use 6to4, then do you know the pers= on > > > running the relays? Do you even know who is running the relays? And w= hy > > > should the people running the relays care about you if you are not th= ere > > > direct customer? > > > > If a provider is encouraging to use 6to4, it will provide 6to4 relay fo= r > > their customers: announcing anycast 6to4 relay address to them (probabl= y > > only for them). Provider is monitoring operational status of 6to4 relay= , >=20 > And the response traffic takes this relay, because...? >=20 > > traffic volume etc. plus help debugging MTU problems... Yes I know, thi= s > > is can be done only for outgoing direction.... But if every 6to4 relay > > provider would be doing the same.... >=20 > "If". But this is not so, and therefore, 6to4 with anycast relay is > just not something that makes sense for global traffic. >=20 > > For example I used to know who is running the 6to4 relay used by me...(= me > > and network operation team). For 1.5 years I don't care much about 6to= 4 > > relay anymore since I am using native IPv6 both at home and at work. >=20 > Our (well-maintained!!) 6to4 relay works very well for traffic between > our users and our IPv6-enabled machines - but as soon as the users have > native IPv6, no more need for the relay... >=20 > Gert Doering > -- NetMaster > -- > Total number of prefixes smaller than registry allocations: 155817 >=20 > SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard > Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culema= nn > D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) > Tel: +49 (89) 32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Aug 31 12:49:13 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E70F3A6A49 for ; Tue, 31 Aug 2010 12:49:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.963 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.963 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.436, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_13=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_46=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ul2pqhvcCxPX for ; Tue, 31 Aug 2010 12:49:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE8723A6A08 for ; Tue, 31 Aug 2010 12:49:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OqWny-0005px-QB for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Tue, 31 Aug 2010 19:47:38 +0000 Received: from n78.bullet.mail.sp1.yahoo.com ([98.136.44.42]) by psg.com with smtp (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OqWnr-0005pc-4n for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 31 Aug 2010 19:47:31 +0000 Received: from [69.147.84.145] by n78.bullet.mail.sp1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 31 Aug 2010 19:47:30 -0000 Received: from [98.136.44.163] by t8.bullet.mail.sp1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 31 Aug 2010 19:47:30 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp604.mail.sp1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 31 Aug 2010 19:47:30 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 301941.70574.bm@omp604.mail.sp1.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 93697 invoked by uid 60001); 31 Aug 2010 19:47:30 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s1024; t=1283284050; bh=PjiOS75gtm1nypob4PPde8maNgHCatZHnZ96FBy00Ks=; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Date:From:Subject:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=W/cp31j8XRr5VPOACoZ0a0aaR0hTATlCuAVcnXhHC8Z5twR1j3CaLkDtpXV1evDIEEma/prQSrxL5n3vONroXVZMYHKo9GweSibbzUknz/RgmKW8oAyCt+x1OEY45oNJtvjZtrGFHrFRdywzCzvXxHIZzRqSKIisjM2cU9H+uI0= DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Date:From:Subject:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=sWd+4xHDyP6STXs6IcJ/Ztuiik/3MVcFEuiUwBx35DQ93127SUD3xHpa1/8/Af3bHoEmOnWEtLNXDYGJHiSQlvpZxuaKTMWxLkx+OdPkpqRcp8hd6RoiMEKhzExS7vJCPFXQeJxmvzVCl/m21C5gZmgTUtXXXMlEREpff6SU8cw=; Message-ID: <141984.91800.qm@web45509.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: QfylO20VM1kaoW2kWqws9MGzhchPqJJO6JE31PrqbxTfwl5 LIk62wgc6UUTYPJg_wBCdug1ea9Fh9nQjri8qwJlFYMWH5JSAtJkT.7TuJTO 4O7zxUiFZAjLBD5yV9qYd1qb06potEDKJ4YTKvau.RqDEBJhJ78PpmEIZKZC vrBNBlS4gmc6.gFia2lzu7ZKxWSlPon8Cqz5XQJ7kNYaSQKR79rGl2IXt6tA FsScIxfnUrXzhIS9VzPX4odDVYkFWbsDVZeFVSBVLa.Ecosb0MlB39WI29YI np.KhCGqyN.2W4OWoT3a4EIk- Received: from [85.64.216.89] by web45509.mail.sp1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 31 Aug 2010 12:47:29 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/470 YahooMailWebService/0.8.105.279950 References: <4C71E8DC.7020005@gont.com.ar> <586778.68736.qm@web45501.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4C77700B.5050807@gont.com.ar> Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2010 12:47:29 -0700 (PDT) From: Gabi Nakibly Subject: Re: Comments on draft-nakibly-v6ops-tunnel-loops To: Fernando Gont Cc: "v6ops@ops.ietf.org" , fltemplin@acm.org In-Reply-To: <4C77700B.5050807@gont.com.ar> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: Hi Fernando,=0AWe shall include your proposed mitigation in the draft. =0AS= ee our response inline.=0A=0AFred & Gabi=0A=0A=0A=0A----- Original Message = ----=0A> From: Fernando Gont =0A> To: Gabi Nakibly =0A> Cc: "v6ops@ops.ietf.org" ; fltem= plin@acm.org=0A> Sent: Fri, August 27, 2010 10:58:03 AM=0A> Subject: Re: Co= mments on draft-nakibly-v6ops-tunnel-loops=0A> =0A> Hi, Gabi,=0A> =0A> Than= ks so much for your response. Please find my comments inline....=0A> =0A> >= > a) "Attack #1: 6to4 Relay to ISATAP Router" discussed in [USENIX09]=0A> >= > implies that an ISATAP router will receive an encapsulated IPv6 packet=0A= > >> on its *external* interface, destined to an IPv6 address that does not= =0A> >> belong to that site, but nevertheless forward it on the native IPv6= =0Anetwork.=0A> >>=0A> >> The rule here should be simple: tunneled packets= should only be received=0A> >> on the internal interface. Furthermore, ing= ress filtering should prevent=0A> >> processing a packet with an *internal*= src addr that was received on an=0A> >> *external* interface.=0A> >>=0A> >= =0A> > We agree with your observation. However, please note that the ISATA= P router =0A>will=0A> > not always receive the attack packet (packet #0) on= its external interface.=0A> > The packet may enter the inside network thro= ugh a border router which is not =0A>the=0A> > ISATAP router.=A0 Let's take= for example a network with two border routers. =0AThe=0A> > first border r= outer is an ISATAP router that borders with a native IPv6 =0A>network=0A> >= and a second border router that borders with an IPv4 network. The attack = =0A>packet=0A> > may enter the network through the second router and the IS= ATAP router may=0A> > receive it on its *internal* interface. The rule you = propose can not =0Amitigate=0A> > the attack in this case.=0A> =0A> In this= scenario, the second router should be doing ingress filtering.=0A> I'd arg= ue that having such a scenario and not doing ingress filtering is=0A> openi= ng the door to lots of trouble -- not just this only issue.=0A> =0A> Nevert= heless, it should be clarified in the I-D this possible scenario.=0A> Becau= se for other scenarios, the check I've mentioned would solve this=0A> issue= .=0A> =0A> (Note, nevertheless, that ingress filtering on the second router= , plus=0A> the check I've mentioned fix this potential problem, with no mag= ic)=0A> =0A=0AWe shall note this=A0in the draft.=0A=0A> =0A> =0A> > =0A> >>= b) "Attack #2: ISATAP Router to 6to4 Relay"=0A> >>=0A> >> This one implies= that the ISATAP router will send a tunneled packet on=0A> >> its *external= * interface. Being ISATAP an *Intra-site* tunneling=0A> >> protocol, this c= learly shouldn't happen (but Fred Templin is certainly=0A> >> in a much bet= ter position than me to correct me if I'm wrong).=0A> >>=0A> >> Both in thi= s case and in Attack #1 above, there should never be a case=0A> >> in which= a packet is received on the external physical interface, and=0A> >> forwar= ded back on that external physical interface.=0A> > =0A> > Similarly to the= case we described above, the packet will indeed be forwarded =0A>by=0A> > = the ISATAP router over its internal interface, but the packet will find its= =0A>way=0A> > out through the second border router and loop will continue.= =0A> =0A> This scenario should be clearly explained, then. -- Even then, be= ing a=0A> border router the ISATAP router probably knows the IP address blo= ck=0A> that's used within the site. Therefore, it should probably filter th= ose=0A> packets that would need to be tunneled off-site.=0A=0AAn ISATAP rou= ter doesn't do that by default. We =0Asuggest=A0similar measure to this =A0= in the Neighbor Cache Check.=0A=0A> =0A> But, again: it should be made clea= r that you're thinking about a=0A> two-border-router scenario.=0A> =0A> =0A= > =0A> >> c) Attack #3: ISATAP Router to ISATAP Router=0A> >>=0A> >> Same a= s above.=0A> >>=0A> > =0A> > Same as above.=0A> =0A> Same as above. :-)=0A>= =0A> =0A> =0A> >> d) "Attack #4: Teredo Client to NAT"=0A> >>=0A> >> This = not only implies that a Teredo client will accept packets on its=0A> >> Ter= edo interface, but also that it will forward them. Both behaviors=0A> >> se= em to be ill-advised (despite the fact that Windows allegedly=0A> >> implem= ents them).=0A> >>=0A> >> The countermeasure here is straightforward: drop = packets received on the=0A> >> Teredo interface that are not received to yo= ur nodes. Never forward=0A> >> packets on the Teredo interface that have no= t originated in your own node.=0A> >>=0A> >> e) "E. Attack #5: Teredo Serve= r"=0A> >>=0A> >> This one is probably trickier. Although one should probabl= y argue that=0A> >> packets received on a physical interface for a unicast = address, with a=0A> >> src addr that belongs to the host should be dropped.= (such packets would=0A> >> typically be forwarded internally).=0A> >=0A> >= =0A> > Regarding the last two Teredo attacks, please note that the draft d= oes NOT=0A> > address them. The nature of these two attacks are different f= rom the =0Aprevious=0A> > ones, hence to make the draft more coherent and s= imple it only addresses=0A> > protocol-41 tunnel-based loops.=0A> > As to t= he countermeasure you proposed for attack #4, I think that it may not =0A>b= e=0A> > suitable for Teredo clients that do need to forward packets.=0A> = =0A> Are there any of these available? For instance, does RFC 4380 support= =0A> this? - I don't think that's the case (of the top of my head, though)= =0A>=0A=0ARFC 4380's definition of a Teredo Client:=0A=0A=A0=A0 "A node tha= t has some access to the IPv4 Internet and wants to gain=0A=A0=A0 access to= the IPv6 Internet."=0A=0AA node=A0is a host or a router. From this we dedu= ce that the RFC does not =0Aexclude forwarding on a Teredo client.=0A=A0=0A= > =0A> > For example, a=0A> > router that serves as a gateway to an interna= l IPv6 network while the =0A>router's=0A> > external IPv6 connectivity is a= chieved via Teredo. =0A> =0A> This setup would be really broken. If there's= an IPv6 island, then the=0A> border router of that island should be doing = 6to4, or a configured=0A> tunnel or the like.=0A>=0A=0AUnless the IPv6 isla= nd is behind a NAT.=0A=A0=0A> =0A> =0A> > However, we do agree that a=0A> >= simple countermeasure similar to the one you proposed can be devised.=0A> = > But, again, this is not related to the draft. If the list feels that thes= e =0A> > attacks should be addressed, suitable updates to Teredo can be pro= posed. If =0A>yes, =0A>=0A> > I welcome any comments.=0A> =0A> IMHO, if you= mention the attack, you should probably point a possible=0A> way to fix th= is. -- although I understand that in this particular case=0A> this would be= more in the scope of 6man than v6ops.=0A>=0A=0APlease note that although t= he=A0draft references [USENIX09] =0Ait does not=A0mention the Teredo attack= s.=0A=A0=0A> =0A> =0A> >> **** 5) Section 2, first para:=0A> >> "=A0 In thi= s section we shall denote an IPv6 address of a node reached via=0A> >>=A0 a= given tunnel by the prefix of the tunnel and the IPv4 address of=0A> >>=A0= the node, i.e., Addr(Prefix, IPv4)."=0A> >>=0A> >> This seems misleading. = the IPv4 address (IPv4) corresponds to the tunnel=0A> >> end-point, and not= to the node that is reachable by the given tunnel.=0A> > =0A> > Good point= , but to be more precise the IPv4 address corresponds to an =0A> > (IPv4) i= nterface associated with the tunnel endpoint. The tunnel endpoint =0A> > ma= y associate multiple such interfaces with the tunnel endpoint, however, =0A= > > so the proposed resolution is to change "the IPv4 address" to "an IPv4 = =0A>address".=0A> > We will change this to make it clearer.=0A> =0A> Lookin= g at the text again, I realize that I looked confusion to me in=0A> this as= pect: "node reached via a given tunnel" sounded to me more like=0A> e.g. a= =A0 node in a network that was accessed through a tunnel (this=0A> "node" w= as different from the node/router that was the tunnel endpoint)=0A> -- henc= e the confusion.=0A> =0A> Again, a network diagram would be helpful here.= =0A> =0A> =0A> > =0A> >> **** 7) Section 2 (nit):=0A> >> "=A0 The source ad= dress of the packet is a T1=0A> >>=A0 address with Prf1 as the prefix and I= P2 as the embedded IPv4 address,=0A> >>=A0 i.e., Addr(Prf1, IP2)."=0A> >>= =0A> >> While I do understand what you're talking about, this is the first = time=0A> >> you mention that of "embedded address". Therefore, that of "emb= edded=0A> >> addresses" should be clarified/explained.=0A> >>=0A> > =0A> > = OK. By way of clarification, the third sentence of Section 1 will be change= d =0A>to =0A>=0A> > the following:=0A> > =0A> >=A0 "Automatic tunnels form = a category of tunnels in which a=0A> >=A0 packet's egress node's IPv4 addre= ss is embedded within the=0A> >=A0 destination IPv6 address of the packet."= =0A> =0A> Great.=0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> >> **** 9) Section 3.1 (meta-comment):= =0A> >>=0A> >> See the "counter-measures" I suggested when discussing each = of the=0A> >> attack vectors above. They seem to be simpler than the ones y= ou're=0A> >> proposing here....=0A> > =0A> > Yes, but only if it can be ope= rationally assured that the case we described =0A> > above is avoided. =0A>= > =0A> > We will add these countermeasures in the draft with this reservat= ion.=0A> =0A> Ok.=0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> >> **** 11) Section 3.2.1=0A> >>=0A> >= > This section talks about the "Neighbor Cache Check". Does such a thing=0A= > >> necessarily exist for, e.g., ISATAP?=0A> >>=0A> >> I guess that in the= case of Teredo, you're really talking about the=0A> >> "List of recent Ter= edo peers"?=0A> > =0A> > As mentioned above, Teredo is not addressed by the= draft.=0A> =0A> What about ISATAP?=0A=0ASorry, due to an oversight the res= ponse for the=A0ISATAP case was not=A0=0Aincluded in our last email. Here i= t is:=0ARFC4861 discusses the neighbor cache wrt all=0AIPv6 interfaces, but= by implication a router may omit the neighbor=0Acache in order to reduce s= tate. Section 8.4 of RFC5214 says:=0A=0A=A0"After address resolution, ISATA= P hosts SHOULD perform an initial=0A=A0 reachability confirmation by sendin= g Neighbor Solicitation messages=0A=A0 and receiving a Neighbor Advertiseme= nt message.=A0 ISATAP routers MAY=0A=A0 perform this initial reachability c= onfirmation, but this might not=0A=A0 scale in all environments."=0A=0AThis= calls for the ISATAP router to maintain at least a minimal=0Aneighbor cach= e if it elects to perform initial reachability=0Aconfirmations, so there is= at least one published case in which=0Aan ISATAP router is implicitly requ= ired to maintain a neighbor=0Acache. Section 3.2.1 simply describes a secon= d case in which an=0AISATAP router is implicitly required to maintain a nei= ghbor cache;=0Ahence, there does not seem to be a need to mention this expl= icitly=0Ain this document.=0A=0A> =0A> Thanks!=0A> =0A> Kind regards,=0A> -= - =0A> Fernando Gont=0A> e-mail: fernando@gont.com.ar || fgont@acm.org=0A> = PGP Fingerprint: 7809 84F5 322E 45C7 F1C9 3945 96EE A9EF D076 FFF1=0A> =0A>= =0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> =0A=0A=0A From iberu2110@comcast.net Tue Aug 31 13:34:25 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D7693A6AF0 for ; Tue, 31 Aug 2010 13:34:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -36.283 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-36.283 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vkVWnHiE4Nlo for ; Tue, 31 Aug 2010 13:34:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from comcast.net (c-71-57-21-188.hsd1.in.comcast.net [71.57.21.188]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E5093A6B12 for ; Tue, 31 Aug 2010 13:32:37 -0700 (PDT) From: "SuperPfizer's e-Shop" To: v6ops-archive@ietf.org Subject: Dear v6ops-archive 77% Off. 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 From v6ops-archive@ietf.org Tue Aug 31 14:12:36 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 563D63A6B0B for ; Tue, 31 Aug 2010 14:12:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char AE hex): Subject: v6ops-archive@ietf.org V|AGRA \256 Official Selle[...] X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -8.351 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-8.351 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_95=3, DRUGS_ERECTILE=1, DRUGS_ERECTILE_OBFU=1.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, FUZZY_VPILL=0.687, HELO_DYNAMIC_HCC=4.295, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2=4.395, HELO_EQ_DSL=1.129, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_08=1.787, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_1=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_14=0.6, MANGLED_VIAGRA=2.5, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_OBFU_VIAGRA=1.666, SUBJECT_NEEDS_ENCODING=0.001, TT_OBSCURED_VIAGRA=1.652, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.931, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rCXCCcHJAMyW for ; Tue, 31 Aug 2010 14:12:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 114-140-10-141.adsl.fetnet.net (114-140-10-141.adsl.fetnet.net [114.140.10.141]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id B123C3A6A88 for ; Tue, 31 Aug 2010 14:12:33 -0700 (PDT) From: v6ops-archive@ietf.org To: v6ops-archive@ietf.org Subject: v6ops-archive@ietf.org V|AGRA ® Official Seller -23% MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20100831211233.B123C3A6A88@core3.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2010 14:12:33 -0700 (PDT)
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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Aug 31 15:27:02 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 977983A6863 for ; Tue, 31 Aug 2010 15:27:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.624 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.624 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.025, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zHIORf8CS2Mq for ; Tue, 31 Aug 2010 15:27:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 464773A686E for ; Tue, 31 Aug 2010 15:27:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OqZE3-0008SQ-4k for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Tue, 31 Aug 2010 22:22:43 +0000 Received: from mail-ey0-f180.google.com ([209.85.215.180]) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OqZDw-0008Q3-IF for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 31 Aug 2010 22:22:36 +0000 Received: by eya25 with SMTP id 25so5048127eya.11 for ; Tue, 31 Aug 2010 15:22:33 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from :organization:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=2FIuH/OZODjeTYbdY/JHgd88W7Ry2Me917W/shqCl40=; b=xSpoenx5KRhiGUjXR5841pTyXDpHhUUaYUP34FRztBAYpozjqnFt1dzSf13tb93j4i JKMq8QiFynwKJhth2WZ7pAHImO8he+m26u1B6EsD6cV+GSsyAxp28WAPb+F2HIe+VEkv 2liikyPfsRQQJPbhEBhIZhdZ6kAQtpWKLLRtg= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:organization:user-agent:mime-version:to :subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=mKUhQ5lcnIKADs1SR0JyXFQBDnqNDm+iyyoRYjNVParTtTIHuTfItmDydmZy99htz9 6mPgrtmsgvgXHUg9pOl7OI2kOznzcncHQoaLgZ/y0Meg9M82OFIYOP5sFhiJAYWUdyOS bR57m8PaT1YHyNBS7U9IYfzphbOVYX8khHKgk= Received: by 10.213.34.195 with SMTP id m3mr10799667ebd.39.1283293340515; Tue, 31 Aug 2010 15:22:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [130.216.38.124] (stf-brian.sfac.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.38.124]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id v8sm14846156eeh.14.2010.08.31.15.22.17 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Tue, 31 Aug 2010 15:22:19 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4C7D8097.2060603@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2010 10:22:15 +1200 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Windows/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: IPv6 Operations Subject: Re: I-D Action:draft-vandevelde-v6ops-harmful-tunnels-01.txt References: <20100831081506.5827A3A6956@core3.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <20100831081506.5827A3A6956@core3.amsl.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: I am troubled by this draft. It makes broad assertions without giving detailed scenarios, and it doesn't offer any solutions. For example, the reference given for 6to4 is RFC 3056. As far as I know, 6to4 as described in RFC 3056 has been deployed very little. But that is a *managed* scenario, no so different from 6rd, which requires 6to4 routers and relay routers to be configured according to certain guidelines, designed to prevent exactly the sort of problems this draft is complaining about. What has been deployed reasonably widely is a completely different scenario, host-based 6to4 relying on an anycast mechanism for finding a relay router, as defined in RFC 3068, which isn't even referenced. There are well-known problems with that model, resulting in one-way connectivity in many cases. If that is what the draft wants to condemn, that model should be described in detail and its failure modes given in detail. The same applies to Teredo. We need a more carefully described scenario and an explanation of the failure modes. Some positive proposals for how to correct these failure modes would be more productive than a "considered harmful" conclusion, too. 6to4 exists to bypass IPv4-only ISPs; Teredo exists to bypass IPv4-only CPEs; these are real world problems that need solutions. Regards Brian Carpenter From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Aug 31 15:38:42 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4B7E3A6839 for ; Tue, 31 Aug 2010 15:38:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.024 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.024 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.625, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_13=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_21=0.6, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kEEi6AT-sgqf for ; Tue, 31 Aug 2010 15:38:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 780583A681F for ; Tue, 31 Aug 2010 15:38:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OqZSa-000B5Y-0E for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Tue, 31 Aug 2010 22:37:44 +0000 Received: from mail-vw0-f52.google.com ([209.85.212.52]) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1OqZST-000B52-Cr for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 31 Aug 2010 22:37:37 +0000 Received: by vws14 with SMTP id 14so7989619vws.11 for ; Tue, 31 Aug 2010 15:37:36 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from :organization:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=JniiiKTu3+4hpAbz6YRO1M/WwI5qHcoiDcagBnUERmE=; b=aypyAPkHj7ilpwQejpNgMkpopAyFdDt8HipiRmGTOie0QQGLf1k1KZFA1ctmNf8/3f ImZ2Lwweqz6haKWSci6v5AHJZt9icX4VjjjFlT09iGLBk1ma9LGh2biNPpaxqPoIOJVu yUoeOttKEv2nYWe+Twn/yqLmD5ua+h6KrUgec= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:organization:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc :subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=icjO0AnvMa6TQzYZdh2zo5EbvE2GuKBJZAqMuF/h8Y6G0aRYm98cwuJike57rel8rv 0yeT3zpNPkZRUlOe6K9IK8eRbPERLPeVl42wZvkCzFSMO87j9rs4L+gkuxGfJKH/f1/x A35lWmR+ces2VwG5kypdIEGMVjFEXAoYU/E4k= Received: by 10.220.168.12 with SMTP id s12mr4606868vcy.240.1283294256389; Tue, 31 Aug 2010 15:37:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [130.216.38.124] (stf-brian.sfac.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.38.124]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id w31sm5347852vbs.15.2010.08.31.15.37.32 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Tue, 31 Aug 2010 15:37:35 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4C7D842B.2060307@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2010 10:37:31 +1200 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Windows/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mohacsi Janos CC: "Gunter Van de Velde (gvandeve)" , =?UTF-8?B?UsOp?= =?UTF-8?B?bWkgRGVzcHLDqXM=?= , Randy Bush , Cameron Byrne , IPv6 v6ops Subject: Re: draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC References: <018544C5-8D1E-412A-B6E4-F12623E66366@cisco.com> <00C0B23A-EF43-49BA-953C-695CC3FE6CB0@cisco.com> <58F090EC-8F09-4E49-B072-3FE45A8EEA0A@free.fr> <4269EA985EACD24987D82DAE2FEC62E5021A96B3@XMB-AMS-101.cisco.com> <4269EA985EACD24987D82DAE2FEC62E5021A96D4@XMB-AMS-101.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: On 2010-09-01 05:34, Mohacsi Janos wrote: >=20 >=20 >=20 > On Tue, 31 Aug 2010, Gunter Van de Velde (gvandeve) wrote: >=20 >> Can be mananaged... but... if you use 6to4, then do you know the >> person running the relays? Do you even know who is running the relays?= >> And why should the people running the relays care about you if you are= >> not there direct customer? >=20 > If a provider is encouraging to use 6to4, it will provide 6to4 relay fo= r > their customers: announcing anycast 6to4 relay address to them (probabl= y > only for them). Provider is monitoring operational status of 6to4 relay= , > traffic volume etc. plus help debugging MTU problems... Yes I know, thi= s > is can be done only for outgoing direction.... But if every 6to4 relay > provider would be doing the same.... Exactly. RFC 3056 describes how to manage 6to4. Unfortunately, RFC 3068 describes how to not manage it. Gunter's comment can apply to RFC 3068 but not to 6to4 as originally defined. Brian >=20 > For example I used to know who is running the 6to4 relay used by > me...(me and network operation team). For 1.5 years I don't care much > about 6to4 relay anymore since I am using native IPv6 both at home and > at work. >=20 > Best Regards, > Janos Mohacsi >=20 >=20 >> >> G/ >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Mohacsi Janos [mailto:mohacsi@niif.hu] >> Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2010 6:53 PM >> To: Gunter Van de Velde (gvandeve) >> Cc: R=C3=A9mi Despr=C3=A9s; Randy Bush; Cameron Byrne; IPv6 v6ops >> Subject: RE: draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, 31 Aug 2010, Gunter Van de Velde (gvandeve) wrote: >> >>> Next to that... teredo and 6to4 are non-managed services, while 6rd >>> is a managed service... big difference for the user experience. >>> >>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-vandevelde-v6ops-harmful-tunnels-01 >> >> What do you mean about managed service? I think 6to4 and teredo can be= >> managed.... >> >> Best Regards, >> Janos Mohacsi >> >>> >>> G/ >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] On >>> Behalf Of R=C3=A9mi Despr=C3=A9s >>> Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2010 6:07 PM >>> To: Randy Bush >>> Cc: Cameron Byrne; IPv6 v6ops >>> Subject: Re: draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC >>> >>> >>> Le 19 ao?t 2010 ? 08:09, Randy Bush a =C3=A9crit : >>> >>>> from 10,000m, what is 6rd but a teredo/6to4 that colludes with the >>>> provider who won't do real v6? it's a cute hack, but a hack. >>> >>> Descending to 100m, one can see that, unlike Teredo and 6to4, 6rd >>> provides native IPv6 prefixes to customer sites, unlike Teredo and 6t= o4: >>> - Hosts behind a 6rd CPE are on a dual-stack LAN, and can't determine= >>> whether the ISP network is dual stack throughout or 6rd. >>> - From 6rd sites, connectivity with other IPv6 native addresses is >>> guaranteed, which is the case with neither Teredo nor 6to4. >>> >>> You told me once that, for you, "hack" had no negative connotation. >>> Then, "cute hack" can nicely be taken positively, thanks ;-). >>> >>> Cheers, >>> RD >>> >>> PS: Note that I have absolutely no financial interest in any of its >>> actual applications, just being proud of having originated a useful >>> mechanism. >>> >>> >>> >> From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Aug 31 16:03:26 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89A383A68B5 for ; 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Tue, 31 Aug 2010 16:01:55 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4C7D89DD.6000608@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2010 11:01:49 +1200 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Windows/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Gert Doering CC: Mohacsi Janos , "Gunter Van de Velde (gvandeve)" , =?UTF-8?B?UsOpbWkgRGVzcHLDqXM=?= , Randy Bush , Cameron Byrne , IPv6 v6ops Subject: Re: draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines WGLC References: <018544C5-8D1E-412A-B6E4-F12623E66366@cisco.com> <00C0B23A-EF43-49BA-953C-695CC3FE6CB0@cisco.com> <58F090EC-8F09-4E49-B072-3FE45A8EEA0A@free.fr> <4269EA985EACD24987D82DAE2FEC62E5021A96B3@XMB-AMS-101.cisco.com> <4269EA985EACD24987D82DAE2FEC62E5021A96D4@XMB-AMS-101.cisco.com> <20100831175116.GY61734@Space.Net> In-Reply-To: <20100831175116.GY61734@Space.Net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: On 2010-09-01 05:51, Gert Doering wrote: > Hi, > > On Tue, Aug 31, 2010 at 07:34:48PM +0200, Mohacsi Janos wrote: >> On Tue, 31 Aug 2010, Gunter Van de Velde (gvandeve) wrote: >>> Can be mananaged... but... if you use 6to4, then do you know the person >>> running the relays? Do you even know who is running the relays? And why >>> should the people running the relays care about you if you are not there >>> direct customer? >> If a provider is encouraging to use 6to4, it will provide 6to4 relay for >> their customers: announcing anycast 6to4 relay address to them (probably >> only for them). Provider is monitoring operational status of 6to4 relay, > > And the response traffic takes this relay, because...? Actually, it doesn't. It takes whatever relay 2002::/16 happens to be routed to at the remote host's location. It's when there is no such route to a "willing" relay that 6to4 fails. That is the analysis that's missing in draft-vandevelde-v6ops-harmful-tunnels. >> traffic volume etc. plus help debugging MTU problems... Yes I know, this >> is can be done only for outgoing direction.... But if every 6to4 relay >> provider would be doing the same.... > > "If". But this is not so, and therefore, 6to4 with anycast relay is > just not something that makes sense for global traffic. Well, the problem is usually not the anycast relay, but the return path. However, I agree; the problem cases seem to be caused by RFC 3068. Brian > >> For example I used to know who is running the 6to4 relay used by me...(me >> and network operation team). For 1.5 years I don't care much about 6to4 >> relay anymore since I am using native IPv6 both at home and at work. > > Our (well-maintained!!) 6to4 relay works very well for traffic between > our users and our IPv6-enabled machines - but as soon as the users have > native IPv6, no more need for the relay... > > Gert Doering > -- NetMaster From paruserika6640@comcast.net Tue Aug 31 18:03:37 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 497D63A6882 for ; Tue, 31 Aug 2010 18:03:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -37.16 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-37.16 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YkJqe6d3VNlC for ; Tue, 31 Aug 2010 18:03:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from comcast.net (c-174-59-174-178.hsd1.pa.comcast.net [174.59.174.178]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95AAA3A686C for ; Tue, 31 Aug 2010 18:03:30 -0700 (PDT) From: "SuperPfizer's e-Shop" To: v6ops-archive@ietf.org Subject: Dear v6ops-archive 77% Off. 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World Trade Center Pregnancy Study.
The energy for the Green Revolution was provided by fossil fuels in the form of fertilizers (natural gas), pesticides (oil), and hydrocarbon -fueled irrigation.
The Road to episodes are a series are a Hallmark of the show "Family Guy".
List of education articles by country.
In 1953, Davis Business College was among the first to be accredited by the Accrediting Commission for Business Schools.
While many cities in England are quite large in size, such as Birmingham, Manchester, Liverpool, Leeds, Newcastle, Bradford, Nottingham and others, a large population is not necessarily a prerequisite for a settlement to be afforded city status.
Merrin is believed to be the youngest elected mayor in Ohio.
These grenades are usually classed as offensive weapons because the effective casualty radius is smaller than the distance it can be thrown.
These missions returned a wealth of scientific data and 381.
The change was not well-received by liberal readers, many of whom accused the newspaper of trying to silence liberal voices and remove controversial writers.
The original text of the Constitution establishes the structure and responsibilities of the federal government and its relationship with the individual states.
The Type 68 had a penetration of 50 mm of armor plating, which was astonishing for 1940.
These all derive from writings found in the New Testament.
Accurately measuring circumference or diameter is difficult in species with the large buttresses that are especially characteristic in many species of rainforest trees.
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 From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Aug 31 18:19:59 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 211793A68AE for ; Tue, 31 Aug 2010 18:19:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.137 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.137 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.462, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bLN2b+GRBtlI for ; Tue, 31 Aug 2010 18:19:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E522D3A6882 for ; Tue, 31 Aug 2010 18:19:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Oqbw1-000DSB-BL for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Wed, 01 Sep 2010 01:16:17 +0000 Received: from mail-gw0-f66.google.com ([74.125.83.66]) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Oqbvv-000DRo-2w for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 01 Sep 2010 01:16:11 +0000 Received: by gwb11 with SMTP id 11so1328223gwb.5 for ; Tue, 31 Aug 2010 18:16:09 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:sender:message-id:date:from :user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to :x-enigmail-version:openpgp:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=SDm1lrhdcpWJz2nawNT8MHhvNbadTyjo8UBfxPxqBqE=; b=Dy4nq2UHI69z5/lmKY3mrJRT7m+WL1fcepPibK2+YjR+rnyCAE3VM+zvv/LYIDYWoW aDlCXMmxEEkyYFSyu2Y6QtvMDzkP1Boli94RSiIypHzdJQDUTnJoKwbwxMT2WN8sTolR x/qDyEGQy/FTHuZxsOpwm0pcpEMb8ZxZiXPbg= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=sender:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject :references:in-reply-to:x-enigmail-version:openpgp:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=R4N92Ay8mXtnB1lnxOvVlR6dWZnnQ64F58/66K5A32mOT0WfjvyaqwwyMY/itkZ8XN b95hNKCg6tgRx6ZPCDFbwfvy0THo10ae3xAjEfWlpajkmkHytAjsehOExRYT4E1tEcWL zSrzAvJ84kyg7fKv4xIgyoq9nJycTJSLqVt5Y= Received: by 10.101.154.30 with SMTP id g30mr7396305ano.256.1283303769815; Tue, 31 Aug 2010 18:16:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [190.48.215.149] ([190.48.215.149]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id w1sm15584535ana.36.2010.08.31.18.16.04 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Tue, 31 Aug 2010 18:16:08 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4C7DA5D3.3060007@gont.com.ar> Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2010 22:01:07 -0300 From: Fernando Gont User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.24 (Windows/20100228) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Gert Doering CC: Jeroen Massar , sthaug@nethelp.no, v6ops@ops.ietf.org, ipv6@ietf.org Subject: Re: ping-pong phenomenon with p2p links & /127 prefixes References: <4C68FD84.80905@unfix.org> <20100816.111224.41652855.sthaug@nethelp.no> <4C690673.1040400@unfix.org> <20100816.114110.71111142.sthaug@nethelp.no> <4C69085A.1040706@unfix.org> <20100816132402.GE61734@Space.Net> In-Reply-To: <20100816132402.GE61734@Space.Net> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.96.0 OpenPGP: id=D076FFF1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: Hi, Gert, >> I think you miss my point: they might finally comply with the specs one >> day (if you ask or not, others might) and you will have forgotten about >> this little subtle problem and upgrade your routers and voila your >> network is broken. > > Cisco understands subnet-anycast, and disables this for /127s. Only for /127s, and automagically? What about Junipers? Thanks! Kind regards, -- Fernando Gont e-mail: fernando@gont.com.ar || fgont@acm.org PGP Fingerprint: 7809 84F5 322E 45C7 F1C9 3945 96EE A9EF D076 FFF1 From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Aug 31 21:43:19 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2EBF3A67BE for ; Tue, 31 Aug 2010 21:43:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.718 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.718 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.281, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_13=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id u98k-PyR2nrT for ; Tue, 31 Aug 2010 21:43:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3B2E3A6860 for ; Tue, 31 Aug 2010 21:43:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Oqf4W-000LU3-LS for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Wed, 01 Sep 2010 04:37:16 +0000 Received: from mail-yw0-f66.google.com ([209.85.213.66]) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Oqf4O-000LTC-Cp for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 01 Sep 2010 04:37:08 +0000 Received: by ywg4 with SMTP id 4so1358194ywg.5 for ; Tue, 31 Aug 2010 21:37:07 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:sender:message-id:date:from :user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to :x-enigmail-version:openpgp:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=eQYAkqjyMBJwy79zWpXVz4P2Iiv4Iy+2hLZK3dLZpYA=; b=K7vxLHgXcZiuogLwishGyD7I0anekqNWjyw+UV1mxrD/5IHYiEyDRndXY4i6O3sr6z HJVNaD9OrJ7A3M2QCPEm0O9yTH82oVGUpktFRPr1YimbMKhtyw+M8Gn4ISldiv9f5PjC di2XV4SHWP50tY73A0HkJvoQ5uPWguvcaTvyw= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=sender:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject :references:in-reply-to:x-enigmail-version:openpgp:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=DBonlM1qIC2st2MsQhWTDfWyIebXqtlKETmLEgClFZXZhXhfLwKJ5Fi9Pyd8vbpfQM hbWaTzRagDP7+YUvsfQ/HcmmG/PxdeW23dQALJsZWZ4tW3X+ii9VWpjheql6nutBtJ5j lfhZyFfEPjkjgsrXIdbXZzmwTMypGFLtc7wGE= Received: by 10.151.62.30 with SMTP id p30mr2832741ybk.328.1283315826817; Tue, 31 Aug 2010 21:37:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.2.7] ([190.245.181.90]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id t20sm362370ybm.5.2010.08.31.21.37.02 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Tue, 31 Aug 2010 21:37:05 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4C7DD861.8030705@gont.com.ar> Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2010 01:36:49 -0300 From: Fernando Gont User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.24 (Windows/20100228) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Gabi Nakibly CC: "v6ops@ops.ietf.org" , fltemplin@acm.org Subject: Re: Comments on draft-nakibly-v6ops-tunnel-loops References: <4C71E8DC.7020005@gont.com.ar> <586778.68736.qm@web45501.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4C77700B.5050807@gont.com.ar> <141984.91800.qm@web45509.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <141984.91800.qm@web45509.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.96.0 OpenPGP: id=D076FFF1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: Hi, Gabi, Please find my comments inline... >>>> b) "Attack #2: ISATAP Router to 6to4 Relay" >>>> >>>> This one implies that the ISATAP router will send a tunneled packet on >>>> its *external* interface. Being ISATAP an *Intra-site* tunneling >>>> protocol, this clearly shouldn't happen (but Fred Templin is certainly >>>> in a much better position than me to correct me if I'm wrong). >>>> >>>> Both in this case and in Attack #1 above, there should never be a case >>>> in which a packet is received on the external physical interface, and >>>> forwarded back on that external physical interface. >>> Similarly to the case we described above, the packet will indeed be forwarded >> by >>> the ISATAP router over its internal interface, but the packet will find its >> way >>> out through the second border router and loop will continue. >> This scenario should be clearly explained, then. -- Even then, being a >> border router the ISATAP router probably knows the IP address block >> that's used within the site. Therefore, it should probably filter those >> packets that would need to be tunneled off-site. > > An ISATAP router doesn't do that by default. One would expect the ISATAP router to omplement some kind of access control that determines who can make use of the ISATAP service. In the abscense of "strong" authentication, one would expect that ISATAP router to implement IP_address-based "authentication". -- One might argue that it's an implementation detail that is simply not addresses in the ISATAP spec (in the same way that the spec does not specify how ISATAP hosts discover the ISATAP router in the first place...) >>>> d) "Attack #4: Teredo Client to NAT" >>>> >>>> This not only implies that a Teredo client will accept packets on its >>>> Teredo interface, but also that it will forward them. Both behaviors >>>> seem to be ill-advised (despite the fact that Windows allegedly >>>> implements them). >>>> >>>> The countermeasure here is straightforward: drop packets received on the >>>> Teredo interface that are not received to your nodes. Never forward >>>> packets on the Teredo interface that have not originated in your own node. >>>> >>>> e) "E. Attack #5: Teredo Server" >>>> >>>> This one is probably trickier. Although one should probably argue that >>>> packets received on a physical interface for a unicast address, with a >>>> src addr that belongs to the host should be dropped. (such packets would >>>> typically be forwarded internally). >>> >>> Regarding the last two Teredo attacks, please note that the draft does NOT >>> address them. The nature of these two attacks are different from the > previous >>> ones, hence to make the draft more coherent and simple it only addresses >>> protocol-41 tunnel-based loops. >>> As to the countermeasure you proposed for attack #4, I think that it may not >> be >>> suitable for Teredo clients that do need to forward packets. >> Are there any of these available? For instance, does RFC 4380 support >> this? - I don't think that's the case (of the top of my head, though) >> > > RFC 4380's definition of a Teredo Client: > > "A node that has some access to the IPv4 Internet and wants to gain > access to the IPv6 Internet." > > A node is a host or a router. From this we deduce that the RFC does not > exclude forwarding on a Teredo client. Forwarding IPv6 packets would mean that the check of the source IPv4 address of the outer packet wrt the embedded IPv4 addresses in the source IPv6 address would fail. Also, Teredo is supposed to be "last resort". so it seems unlikely that a router is connected to a network that provides IPv6 connectivity to the hosts connected to that network, but not to the router. Finally, forwarding packets over the Teredo tunnel would not work if RPF is deployed. >>> For example, a >>> router that serves as a gateway to an internal IPv6 network while the >> router's >>> external IPv6 connectivity is achieved via Teredo. >> This setup would be really broken. If there's an IPv6 island, then the >> border router of that island should be doing 6to4, or a configured >> tunnel or the like. > > Unless the IPv6 island is behind a NAT. See above. Nevertheless, Teredo provides connectivity for hosts, not for networks. >>> I welcome any comments. >> IMHO, if you mention the attack, you should probably point a possible >> way to fix this. -- although I understand that in this particular case >> this would be more in the scope of 6man than v6ops. > > Please note that although the draft references [USENIX09] > it does not mention the Teredo attacks. You're right -- my fault. >>>> **** 11) Section 3.2.1 >>>> >>>> This section talks about the "Neighbor Cache Check". Does such a thing >>>> necessarily exist for, e.g., ISATAP? >>>> >>>> I guess that in the case of Teredo, you're really talking about the >>>> "List of recent Teredo peers"? >>> As mentioned above, Teredo is not addressed by the draft. >> What about ISATAP? > > Sorry, due to an oversight the response for the ISATAP case was not > included in our last email. Here it is: > RFC4861 discusses the neighbor cache wrt all > IPv6 interfaces, but by implication a router may omit the neighbor > cache in order to reduce state. Section 8.4 of RFC5214 says: > > "After address resolution, ISATAP hosts SHOULD perform an initial > reachability confirmation by sending Neighbor Solicitation messages > and receiving a Neighbor Advertisement message. ISATAP routers MAY > perform this initial reachability confirmation, but this might not > scale in all environments." > > This calls for the ISATAP router to maintain at least a minimal > neighbor cache if it elects to perform initial reachability > confirmations, so there is at least one published case in which > an ISATAP router is implicitly required to maintain a neighbor > cache. In this case the NC would contain the corresponding IPv4 addresses, and reachable state, or what? Thanks! Kind regards, -- Fernando Gont e-mail: fernando@gont.com.ar || fgont@acm.org PGP Fingerprint: 7809 84F5 322E 45C7 F1C9 3945 96EE A9EF D076 FFF1 From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Aug 31 23:53:52 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01EC03A68CE for ; Tue, 31 Aug 2010 23:53:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.492 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.492 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.107, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7wgsUBVX2IpC for ; Tue, 31 Aug 2010 23:53:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 025623A67B4 for ; Tue, 31 Aug 2010 23:53:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Oqh9m-000JVv-Od for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Wed, 01 Sep 2010 06:50:50 +0000 Received: from ssh.psg.com ([2001:418:1::40] helo=ran.psg.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Oqh9e-000JPR-UJ for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 01 Sep 2010 06:50:43 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=rmac.psg.com.psg.com) by ran.psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.72 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Oqh9e-0008wk-Go for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 01 Sep 2010 06:50:42 +0000 Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2010 15:50:41 +0900 Message-ID: From: Randy Bush To: IPv6 v6ops Subject: ipv6 anycast User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 (Almost Unreal) Emacs/22.3 Mule/5.0 (SAKAKI) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI 1.14.6 - "Maruoka") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: anyone have pointers to production operational use of ipv6 anycast on the real interwebz? randy