Received: from cnri by ietf.org id aa16486; 4 Jun 97 15:18 EDT Received: from ANNOUNCER.ACADEM.COM by CNRI.Reston.VA.US id aa10706; 4 Jun 97 15:18 EDT Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by announcer.academ.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA29322 for ietf-nntp-outgoing; Wed, 4 Jun 1997 14:10:18 -0500 (CDT) Received: from academ.com (root@ACADEM.COM [198.137.249.2]) by announcer.academ.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA29312 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 1997 14:10:15 -0500 (CDT) Received: from doggate.exchange.microsoft.com (doggate.microsoft.com [131.107.2.63]) by academ.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA23474; Wed, 4 Jun 1997 14:10:13 -0500 (CDT) Received: from DF_IMSMAIL by doggate.exchange.microsoft.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.0.1577.8) id M27NJZA7; Wed, 4 Jun 1997 12:09:52 -0700 Received: from natba1.dns.microsoft.com - 157.55.23.225 by ims.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 4 Jun 1997 12:10:22 -0700 From: Nat Ballou To: NNTP Extensions , NNTP Working Group Subject: ietf-nntp Case sensitivity in xpat Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 12:09:00 -0700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1162 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_01BC70E0.16522A40" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <0079c2210190467DF_IMSMAIL@ims.microsoft.com> Sender: owner-ietf-nntp@academ.com Precedence: bulk This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BC70E0.16522A40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, Others have pointed out to me that existing drafts (including my search draft) are ambigous on case sensitivity of the search pattern in the xpat command. I would prefer to make this search case-insensitive. Comments? Nat ------=_NextPart_000_01BC70E0.16522A40 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi,

Others have pointed out = to me that existing drafts
(including my search draft) are ambigous = on case
sensitivity of the search pattern in the xpat
command. =  

I would prefer to make this search = case-insensitive.

Comments?

Nat

------=_NextPart_000_01BC70E0.16522A40--   Received: from cnri by ietf.org id aa17233; 4 Jun 97 15:49 EDT Received: from ANNOUNCER.ACADEM.COM by CNRI.Reston.VA.US id aa11077; 4 Jun 97 15:49 EDT Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by announcer.academ.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA29502 for ietf-nntp-outgoing; Wed, 4 Jun 1997 14:44:06 -0500 (CDT) Received: from academ.com (sob@ACADEM.COM [198.137.249.2]) by announcer.academ.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA29493 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 1997 14:44:04 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from sob@localhost) by academ.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA23641; Wed, 4 Jun 1997 14:43:59 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199706041943.OAA23641@academ.com> From: Stan Barber Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 14:43:59 CDT X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92) To: Nat Ballou , NNTP Extensions , NNTP Working Group Subject: ietf-nntp Re: nntp-extensions Case sensitivity in xpat Sender: owner-ietf-nntp@academ.com Precedence: bulk Depending on what you are searching for, case sensitivity will vary. For example, if you are searching on email addresses in the From header, there should be no case sensitivity on the right side of the @ sign, but there should be on the left side. So, universal case-sensitivity is not apropriate for any search. -- Stan | Academ Consulting Services |internet: sob@academ.com Olan | For more info on academ, see this |uucp: {mcsun|amdahl}!academ!sob Barber | URL- http://www.academ.com/academ |Opinions expressed are only mine.   Received: from cnri by ietf.org id aa17371; 4 Jun 97 15:55 EDT Received: from ANNOUNCER.ACADEM.COM by CNRI.Reston.VA.US id aa11198; 4 Jun 97 15:55 EDT Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by announcer.academ.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA29601 for ietf-nntp-outgoing; Wed, 4 Jun 1997 14:51:06 -0500 (CDT) Received: from academ.com (sob@ACADEM.COM [198.137.249.2]) by announcer.academ.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA29592 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 1997 14:51:04 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from sob@localhost) by academ.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA24306; Wed, 4 Jun 1997 14:51:01 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199706041951.OAA24306@academ.com> From: Stan Barber Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 14:51:01 CDT X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92) To: Nat Ballou , NNTP Extensions , NNTP Working Group Subject: ietf-nntp Re: nntp-extensions Case sensitivity in xpat Sender: owner-ietf-nntp@academ.com Precedence: bulk > So, universal case-sensitivity is not apropriate for any search. I mean this to read: > So, universal case-sensitivity is not appropriate for all searches. -- Stan | Academ Consulting Services |internet: sob@academ.com Olan | For more info on academ, see this |uucp: {mcsun|amdahl}!academ!sob Barber | URL- http://www.academ.com/academ |Opinions expressed are only mine.   Received: from cnri by ietf.org id aa17611; 4 Jun 97 16:08 EDT Received: from ANNOUNCER.ACADEM.COM by CNRI.Reston.VA.US id aa11373; 4 Jun 97 16:08 EDT Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by announcer.academ.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA29800 for ietf-nntp-outgoing; Wed, 4 Jun 1997 15:03:54 -0500 (CDT) Received: from academ.com (root@ACADEM.COM [198.137.249.2]) by announcer.academ.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA29790 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 1997 15:03:52 -0500 (CDT) Received: from doleh.com (mail.doleh.com [192.231.91.254]) by academ.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA24636; Wed, 4 Jun 1997 15:03:46 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from yaser@localhost) by doleh.com (8.8.5/96.03.01.0) id QAA07154; Wed, 4 Jun 1997 16:03:46 -0400 (EDT) From: "Yaser K. Doleh" Message-Id: <199706042003.QAA07154@doleh.com> Subject: Re: ietf-nntp Case sensitivity in xpat To: Nat Ballou Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 16:03:46 -0400 (EDT) Cc: nntp-extensions@academ.com, ietf-nntp@academ.com In-Reply-To: <0079c2210190467DF_IMSMAIL@ims.microsoft.com> from "Nat Ballou" at Jun 4, 97 12:09:00 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-nntp@academ.com Precedence: bulk Nat Ballou said in a letter > > Hi, > > Others have pointed out to me that existing drafts > (including my search draft) are ambigous on case > sensitivity of the search pattern in the xpat > command. > > I would prefer to make this search case-insensitive. > Why not make it an option ? > Comments? > > Nat >   Received: from cnri by ietf.org id aa23138; 4 Jun 97 21:49 EDT Received: from ANNOUNCER.ACADEM.COM by CNRI.Reston.VA.US id aa15080; 4 Jun 97 21:49 EDT Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by announcer.academ.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA00627 for ietf-nntp-outgoing; Wed, 4 Jun 1997 20:43:20 -0500 (CDT) Received: from academ.com (root@ACADEM.COM [198.137.249.2]) by announcer.academ.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA00616 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 1997 20:43:18 -0500 (CDT) Received: from THOR.INNOSOFT.COM (SYSTEM@THOR.INNOSOFT.COM [192.160.253.66]) by academ.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA27288; Wed, 4 Jun 1997 20:43:16 -0500 (CDT) Received: from eleanor.innosoft.com ("port 56831"@ELEANOR.INNOSOFT.COM) by INNOSOFT.COM (PMDF V5.1-8 #8694) with SMTP id <01IJONUCZ3RM9X4LS5@INNOSOFT.COM>; Wed, 4 Jun 1997 18:42:10 PDT Date: Wed, 04 Jun 1997 18:43:48 -0700 (PDT) From: Chris Newman Subject: Re: ietf-nntp Case sensitivity in xpat In-reply-to: <0079c2210190467DF_IMSMAIL@ims.microsoft.com> To: Nat Ballou Cc: NNTP Extensions , NNTP Working Group Message-id: Content-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: MULTIPART/ALTERNATIVE; BOUNDARY="-559023410-630072926-865475028=:8093" Originator-Info: login-id=chris; server=thor.innosoft.com Sender: owner-ietf-nntp@academ.com Precedence: bulk This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. Send mail to mime@docserver.cac.washington.edu for more info. ---559023410-630072926-865475028=:8093 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=ISO-8859-1 Content-ID: On Wed, 4 Jun 1997, Nat Ballou wrote: > Others have pointed out to me that existing drafts > (including my search draft) are ambigous on case > sensitivity of the search pattern in the xpat > command. > > I would prefer to make this search case-insensitive. > > Comments? What is case-insensitive? How is this effected by the use of non-ASCII charsets in the body or by MIME header encoding in different languages? I'd say that you either want an octet-based comparision that's case sensitive, or you want to use the idea of a named "comparator" function that's being developed in the ACAP working group. I suppose you could just define it as English/US-ASCII-case-insensitive, but that might make some people unhappy... ---559023410-630072926-865475028=:8093--   Received: from cnri by ietf.org id aa02416; 5 Jun 97 5:33 EDT Received: from ANNOUNCER.ACADEM.COM by CNRI.Reston.VA.US id aa03639; 5 Jun 97 5:33 EDT Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by announcer.academ.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id EAA02710 for ietf-nntp-outgoing; Thu, 5 Jun 1997 04:28:27 -0500 (CDT) Received: from academ.com (root@ACADEM.COM [198.137.249.2]) by announcer.academ.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA02702 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 1997 04:28:25 -0500 (CDT) Received: from josef.ifi.unizh.ch (josef.ifi.unizh.ch [130.60.48.10]) by academ.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id EAA01741; Thu, 5 Jun 1997 04:27:39 -0500 (CDT) Received: from ifi.unizh.ch by josef.ifi.unizh.ch with SMTP (PP) id <25677-0@josef.ifi.unizh.ch>; Thu, 5 Jun 1997 11:27:21 +0200 Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 11:27:20 +0200 (MET DST) From: "Martin J. Duerst" To: "Yaser K. Doleh" cc: Nat Ballou , nntp-extensions@academ.com, ietf-nntp@academ.com Subject: Re: ietf-nntp Case sensitivity in xpat In-Reply-To: <199706042003.QAA07154@doleh.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-ietf-nntp@academ.com Precedence: bulk On Wed, 4 Jun 1997, Yaser K. Doleh wrote: > Nat Ballou said in a letter > > I would prefer to make this search case-insensitive. > > > > Why not make it an option ? Maybe there is already something about this in the current draft, maybe not. The search draft should definitely not be limited to ASCII; there are many newsgoups that use all kinds of other character encodings. In the context of worldwide text, case equivalence (or its absence) is just one kind of equivalence, there are many others. And case equivalence is language dependent and otherwise more complex than you might guess. Regards, Martin.   Received: from cnri by ietf.org id aa15504; 5 Jun 97 19:54 EDT Received: from ANNOUNCER.ACADEM.COM by CNRI.Reston.VA.US id aa14782; 5 Jun 97 19:54 EDT Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by announcer.academ.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA04394 for ietf-nntp-outgoing; Thu, 5 Jun 1997 18:47:10 -0500 (CDT) Received: from academ.com (root@ACADEM.COM [198.137.249.2]) by announcer.academ.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA04386 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 1997 18:47:08 -0500 (CDT) Received: from tide03.microsoft.com (firewall-user@tide03.microsoft.com [131.107.3.13]) by academ.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA07457; Thu, 5 Jun 1997 18:47:05 -0500 (CDT) Received: by tide03.microsoft.com; id QAA17358; Thu, 5 Jun 1997 16:47:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unknown(157.54.17.74) by tide03.microsoft.com via smap (V3.1) id xma017347; Thu, 5 Jun 97 16:46:58 -0700 Received: from IMSMAIL ([157.55.65.201]) by imail2.microsoft.com (8.7.3/8.7.1) with ESMTP id QAA02739; Thu, 5 Jun 1997 16:50:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from natba1.dns.microsoft.com - 157.55.23.225 by ims.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 5 Jun 1997 16:47:56 -0700 From: Nat Ballou To: NNTP Extensions , NNTP Working Group Subject: ietf-nntp Re: nntp-extensions Case sensitivity in xpat Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 16:46:11 -0700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1162 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_01BC71CF.F96BECE0" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <010495647230567IMSMAIL@ims.microsoft.com> Sender: owner-ietf-nntp@academ.com Precedence: bulk This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BC71CF.F96BECE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Stan, Does the best current practices document state requirements for the xpat argument? Nat ---------- > From: Stan Barber > To: Nat Ballou ; NNTP Extensions ; NNTP Working Group > Subject: Re: nntp-extensions Case sensitivity in xpat > Date: Wednesday, June 04, 1997 12:43 PM > > Depending on what you are searching for, case sensitivity will vary. > > For example, if you are searching on email addresses in the From header, > there should be no case sensitivity on the right side of the @ sign, but > there should be on the left side. > > So, universal case-sensitivity is not apropriate for any search. > > > -- > Stan | Academ Consulting Services |internet: sob@academ.com > Olan | For more info on academ, see this |uucp: {mcsun|amdahl}!academ!sob > Barber | URL- http://www.academ.com/academ |Opinions expressed are only mine. ------=_NextPart_000_01BC71CF.F96BECE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Stan,

Does the best current = practices document state requirements
for the xpat = argument?

Nat

----------
> From: Stan Barber = <sob@academ.com>
> To: Nat Ballou <NatBa@MICROSOFT.com>; NNTP Extensions <nntp-extensions@academ.com>; NNTP Working Group <ietf-nntp@academ.com>
> Subject: Re: nntp-extensions Case = sensitivity in xpat
> Date: Wednesday, June 04, 1997 12:43 = PM
>
> Depending on what you are searching for, case = sensitivity will vary.
>
> For example, if you are = searching on email addresses in the From header,
> there should = be no case sensitivity on the right side of the @ sign, but
> = there should be on the left side.
>
> So, universal = case-sensitivity is not apropriate for any search.
>
> =
> --
> Stan   | Academ Consulting Services =        |internet: sob@academ.com
> = Olan   | For more info on academ, see this |uucp: = {mcsun|amdahl}!academ!sob
> Barber | URL- http://www.academ.com/academ |Opinions expressed are only mine.

------=_NextPart_000_01BC71CF.F96BECE0--   Received: from cnri by ietf.org id aa25017; 6 Jun 97 1:01 EDT Received: from ANNOUNCER.ACADEM.COM by CNRI.Reston.VA.US id aa01373; 6 Jun 97 1:01 EDT Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by announcer.academ.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA04946 for ietf-nntp-outgoing; Thu, 5 Jun 1997 23:55:59 -0500 (CDT) Received: from academ.com (root@ACADEM.COM [198.137.249.2]) by announcer.academ.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA04936 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 1997 23:55:57 -0500 (CDT) Received: from postman.opengroup.org (postman.opengroup.org [130.105.1.152]) by academ.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA08097; Thu, 5 Jun 1997 23:55:55 -0500 (CDT) Received: from sulphur.osf.org (sulphur.osf.org [130.105.1.123]) by postman.opengroup.org (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA12095; Fri, 6 Jun 1997 00:55:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from rsalz@localhost) by sulphur.osf.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA24705; Fri, 6 Jun 1997 00:55:23 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 00:55:23 -0400 (EDT) From: Rich Salz Message-Id: <199706060455.AAA24705@sulphur.osf.org> To: NatBa@microsoft.com, ietf-nntp@academ.com, nntp-extensions@academ.com Subject: ietf-nntp Re: nntp-extensions Case sensitivity in xpat Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-nntp@academ.com Precedence: bulk xpat is case sensitive.   Received: from cnri by ietf.org id aa02304; 14 Jun 97 4:58 EDT Received: from announcer.academ.com (majordomo@ANNOUNCER.ACADEM.COM [198.137.249.60]) by cnri.reston.va.us (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTPid EAA20567 for ; Sat, 14 Jun 1997 04:57:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by announcer.academ.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id DAA13411 for ietf-nntp-outgoing; Sat, 14 Jun 1997 03:50:27 -0500 (CDT) Received: from academ.com (root@ACADEM.COM [198.137.249.2]) by announcer.academ.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id DAA13406 for ; Sat, 14 Jun 1997 03:50:25 -0500 (CDT) Received: from dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.5]) by academ.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id DAA06973 for ; Sat, 14 Jun 1997 03:50:24 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id DAA06833 for ; Sat, 14 Jun 1997 03:49:52 -0500 (CDT) Received: from sfe-nm4-11.ix.netcom.com(205.184.198.139) by dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id sma006830; Sat Jun 14 03:49:36 1997 Received: from thune.mrc.org by ylum.mrc.org (8.8.5) id CAA00775; Sat, 14 Jun 1997 02:47:37 -0600 Received: by thune.mrc.org (8.8.5) id CAA03547; Sat, 14 Jun 1997 02:44:48 -0600 Message-Id: <199706140844.CAA03547@thune.mrc.org> Subject: ietf-nntp XHDR and use of ":" To: ietf-nntp@academ.com Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 02:44:47 -0600 (MDT) From: Mike Castle Content-Type: text Sender: owner-ietf-nntp@academ.com Precedence: bulk Are there any implementations of true nntp-servers that either support or require use of ":" in the header field of XHDR? Ie: xhdr subject: nnnnn Rather than: xhdr subject nnnnn A caching server I'm experimenting with (nntpcache) seems to require the ":". But INN wants it without the ":". So, I'm trying to determine if there is a precedence in any servers supporting/requiring the ":" to be present. And if so, should the draft be updated to reflect that? mrc -- Mike Castle Life is like a clock: You can work constantly dalgoda@ix.netcom.com and be right all the time, or not work at all [Note the 4 line .sig] and be right at least twice a day. -- mrc We are all of us living in the shadow of Manhattan. -- Watchmen   Received: from cnri by ietf.org id aa06503; 14 Jun 97 9:29 EDT Received: from announcer.academ.com (majordomo@ANNOUNCER.ACADEM.COM [198.137.249.60]) by cnri.reston.va.us (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTPid JAA20719 for ; Sat, 14 Jun 1997 09:28:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by announcer.academ.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA14186 for ietf-nntp-outgoing; Sat, 14 Jun 1997 08:24:08 -0500 (CDT) Received: from academ.com (sob@ACADEM.COM [198.137.249.2]) by announcer.academ.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA14181 for ; Sat, 14 Jun 1997 08:24:06 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from sob@localhost) by academ.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA08204; Sat, 14 Jun 1997 08:24:03 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199706141324.IAA08204@academ.com> From: Stan Barber Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 08:24:03 CDT X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92) To: Mike Castle , ietf-nntp@academ.com Subject: Re: ietf-nntp XHDR and use of ":" Sender: owner-ietf-nntp@academ.com Precedence: bulk I have not seen a server that support XHDR arguements with colons. -- Stan | Academ Consulting Services |internet: sob@academ.com Olan | For more info on academ, see this |uucp: {mcsun|amdahl}!academ!sob Barber | URL- http://www.academ.com/academ |Opinions expressed are only mine.   Received: from cnri by ietf.org id aa22114; 25 Jun 97 21:37 EDT Received: from announcer.academ.com (majordomo@ANNOUNCER.ACADEM.COM [198.137.249.60]) by cnri.reston.va.us (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTPid VAA06057 for ; Wed, 25 Jun 1997 21:36:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by announcer.academ.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA02409 for ietf-nntp-outgoing; Wed, 25 Jun 1997 20:28:21 -0500 (CDT) Received: from academ.com (root@ACADEM.COM [198.137.249.2]) by announcer.academ.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA02404 for ; Wed, 25 Jun 1997 20:28:19 -0500 (CDT) Received: from ins2.netins.net (ins2.netins.net [167.142.225.2]) by academ.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA08514 for ; Wed, 25 Jun 1997 20:28:19 -0500 (CDT) Received: from worf.netins.net (grobe@worf.netins.net [167.142.225.4]) by ins2.netins.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA08054 for ; Wed, 25 Jun 1997 20:28:17 -0500 (CDT) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 20:28:17 -0500 (CDT) From: Jonathan Grobe cc: NNTP Working Group Subject: ietf-nntp What happened to the NNTP RFC draft? In-Reply-To: <0dfa41640170557IMSMAIL@ims.microsoft.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-ietf-nntp@academ.com Precedence: bulk Stan, have you discontinued work on the NNTP RFC draft? If not when will a new draft be out?   Received: from cnri by ietf.org id aa23250; 25 Jun 97 22:24 EDT Received: from announcer.academ.com (majordomo@ANNOUNCER.ACADEM.COM [198.137.249.60]) by cnri.reston.va.us (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTPid WAA06141 for ; Wed, 25 Jun 1997 22:23:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by announcer.academ.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA02591 for ietf-nntp-outgoing; Wed, 25 Jun 1997 21:19:29 -0500 (CDT) Received: from academ.com (sob@ACADEM.COM [198.137.249.2]) by announcer.academ.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA02586 for ; Wed, 25 Jun 1997 21:19:27 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from sob@localhost) by academ.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA09252; Wed, 25 Jun 1997 21:19:26 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199706260219.VAA09252@academ.com> From: Stan Barber Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 21:19:26 CDT X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92) To: Jonathan Grobe Subject: Re: ietf-nntp What happened to the NNTP RFC draft? Cc: NNTP Working Group Sender: owner-ietf-nntp@academ.com Precedence: bulk I have been waiting for the chair to publish notes on the Memphis meeting. -- Stan | Academ Consulting Services |internet: sob@academ.com Olan | For more info on academ, see this |uucp: {mcsun|amdahl}!academ!sob Barber | URL- http://www.academ.com/academ |Opinions expressed are only mine.   Received: from cnri by ietf.org id aa10012; 27 Jun 97 12:58 EDT Received: from announcer.academ.com (majordomo@ANNOUNCER.ACADEM.COM [198.137.249.60]) by cnri.reston.va.us (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTPid MAA11066 for ; Fri, 27 Jun 1997 12:57:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by announcer.academ.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA05643 for ietf-nntp-outgoing; Fri, 27 Jun 1997 11:49:41 -0500 (CDT) Received: from academ.com (root@ACADEM.COM [198.137.249.2]) by announcer.academ.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA05633 for ; Fri, 27 Jun 1997 11:49:39 -0500 (CDT) Received: from netscape.com (h-205-217-237-47.netscape.com [205.217.237.47]) by academ.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA27944; Fri, 27 Jun 1997 11:49:37 -0500 (CDT) Received: from dredd.mcom.com (dredd.mcom.com [205.217.237.54]) by netscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA15631; Fri, 27 Jun 1997 09:49:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wintermute ([205.217.228.83]) by dredd.mcom.com (Netscape Messaging Server 3.0) with ESMTP id AAA12870; Fri, 27 Jun 1997 09:49:03 -0700 Message-ID: <33B3EED1.99F72EE2@netscape.com> Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 09:48:17 -0700 From: Brian Hernacki Organization: Netscape, Floating Point Division X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nat Ballou CC: NNTP Extensions , NNTP Working Group Subject: ietf-nntp Re: nntp-extensions Case sensitivity in xpat X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <0079c2210190467DF_IMSMAIL@ims.microsoft.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/x-pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="------------msE64BE33E7170F584108C8D1E" Sender: owner-ietf-nntp@academ.com Precedence: bulk This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------msE64BE33E7170F584108C8D1E Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Nat Ballou wrote: > > Hi, > > Others have pointed out to me that existing drafts > (including my search draft) are ambigous on case > sensitivity of the search pattern in the xpat > command. > > I would prefer to make this search case-insensitive. > > Comments? OK... very belated comments (was on vacation). I prefer case-insensitive search. I'd rather have too many hits that too few. --brian --------------msE64BE33E7170F584108C8D1E Content-Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature MIIGxQYJKoZIhvcNAQcCoIIGtjCCBrICAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMAsGCSqGSIb3DQEHAaCC BSwwggJrMIIB1KADAgECAgIA8zANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQQFADB3MQswCQYDVQQGEwJVUzEsMCoG A1UEChMjTmV0c2NhcGUgQ29tbXVuaWNhdGlvbnMgQ29ycG9yYXRpb24xHDAaBgNVBAsTE0lu Zm9ybWF0aW9uIFN5c3RlbXMxHDAaBgNVBAMTE3Jvb3RjYS5uZXRzY2FwZS5jb20wHhcNOTcw NTE1MTgzNzIxWhcNOTcxMTExMTgzNzIxWjCBijELMAkGA1UEBhMCVVMxJjAkBgNVBAoTHU5l dHNjYXBlIENvbW11bmljYXRpb25zIENvcnAuMRkwFwYDVQQDExBCcmlhbiBKIEhlcm5hY2tp MSEwHwYJKoZIhvcNAQkBFhJiaGVybkBuZXRzY2FwZS5jb20xFTATBgoJkiaJk/IsZAEBEwVi aGVybjBcMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAQUAA0sAMEgCQQDnm6RBttHdlGpLUivmNz/rn407/UcsMRpB U0ogpEAOi/102givm1bnuiqM31gwBrRF87qgB4+R/oqgJfR4g1tPAgMBAAGjNjA0MBEGCWCG SAGG+EIBAQQEAwIAoDAfBgNVHSMEGDAWgBT84FToB/GV3jr3mcau+hUMbsQukjANBgkqhkiG 9w0BAQQFAAOBgQA88Ot8Z2n0Yc77AFJj6i510WiHuy6n0SBdYKapMTyToGzEYe+Urq6OL9Zr 2JavqCBaBVex2Qc0JhpCGOJM1x0MI1UQ4njaWTe69pXs6SF4ywLfFzx8WJNvbbNwriooHpAd NDLIQ4HmNY667FJz9ru1ypsBfIQ7NNjuNJEo+/4imzCCArkwggIioAMCAQICAQEwDQYJKoZI hvcNAQEEBQAwdzELMAkGA1UEBhMCVVMxLDAqBgNVBAoTI05ldHNjYXBlIENvbW11bmljYXRp b25zIENvcnBvcmF0aW9uMRwwGgYDVQQLExNJbmZvcm1hdGlvbiBTeXN0ZW1zMRwwGgYDVQQD ExNyb290Y2EubmV0c2NhcGUuY29tMB4XDTk3MDMyNjAxNDQzOFoXDTk5MDMyNjAxNDQzOFow dzELMAkGA1UEBhMCVVMxLDAqBgNVBAoTI05ldHNjYXBlIENvbW11bmljYXRpb25zIENvcnBv cmF0aW9uMRwwGgYDVQQLExNJbmZvcm1hdGlvbiBTeXN0ZW1zMRwwGgYDVQQDExNyb290Y2Eu bmV0c2NhcGUuY29tMIGfMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAQUAA4GNADCBiQKBgQDBqj7+LT+lh8NH3/va bdgYoEU9+cebQ84ntFoTnBF9v9LyiF7Hv7KLebqn5SgLQKaOmTFVxfjOlgZeIoR2vwEiYsOp mSe7CGgRFMcKftyyh/jH4CQwAbwtloXnGcMuoZN3LDQYL/vfokiz56CvegPki4x1pC2TIIwg OVSnRbpAZQIDAQABo1UwUzARBglghkgBhvhCAQEEBAMCAAQwHQYDVR0OBBYEFPzgVOgH8ZXe OveZxq76FQxuxC6SMB8GA1UdIwQYMBaAFPzgVOgH8ZXeOveZxq76FQxuxC6SMA0GCSqGSIb3 DQEBBAUAA4GBAFn32xtcegbE5sWYYYQYzvoGSyCxJMr8WX4/GPHkvqwQ2UrSaY9u/JHK9QQc Cq65+so57E0AGaZnlMzlQFtZhCSS8AEsGeQLLzsc9g8bhUXsw5fx4LpAy91XcYngi0lwSR/d tss0b2/PLyHkU9EZZo9nYvDd7h1IKvBHe4N0h3nIMYIBYTCCAV0CAQEwfTB3MQswCQYDVQQG EwJVUzEsMCoGA1UEChMjTmV0c2NhcGUgQ29tbXVuaWNhdGlvbnMgQ29ycG9yYXRpb24xHDAa BgNVBAsTE0luZm9ybWF0aW9uIFN5c3RlbXMxHDAaBgNVBAMTE3Jvb3RjYS5uZXRzY2FwZS5j b20CAgDzMAkGBSsOAwIaBQCgfTAYBgkqhkiG9w0BCQMxCwYJKoZIhvcNAQcBMCMGCSqGSIb3 DQEJBDEWBBTJ3cUuBJfZopw9g52GCjDDo4iG5DAcBgkqhkiG9w0BCQUxDxcNOTcwNjI3MTY0 ODE3WjAeBgkqhkiG9w0BCQ8xETAPMA0GCCqGSIb3DQMCAgEoMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAQUABEA6 txhxydIha4S45Fa6CscJBIaTMMdtloe00lEauaphKXwCYk6ZUegQBCLKsYKF/hJS0JbFfoV6 hvpvOY1NtdkB --------------msE64BE33E7170F584108C8D1E--   Received: from cnri by ietf.org id aa10036; 27 Jun 97 12:58 EDT Received: from announcer.academ.com (majordomo@ANNOUNCER.ACADEM.COM [198.137.249.60]) by cnri.reston.va.us (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTPid MAA11069 for ; Fri, 27 Jun 1997 12:57:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by announcer.academ.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA05628 for ietf-nntp-outgoing; Fri, 27 Jun 1997 11:47:54 -0500 (CDT) Received: from academ.com (root@ACADEM.COM [198.137.249.2]) by announcer.academ.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA05623 for ; Fri, 27 Jun 1997 11:47:52 -0500 (CDT) Received: from netscape.com (h-205-217-237-47.netscape.com [205.217.237.47]) by academ.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA27937; Fri, 27 Jun 1997 11:47:46 -0500 (CDT) Received: from dredd.mcom.com (dredd.mcom.com [205.217.237.54]) by netscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA15500; Fri, 27 Jun 1997 09:47:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wintermute ([205.217.228.83]) by dredd.mcom.com (Netscape Messaging Server 3.0) with ESMTP id AAA12481; Fri, 27 Jun 1997 09:47:12 -0700 Message-ID: <33B3EE63.C987C7BD@netscape.com> Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 09:46:28 -0700 From: Brian Hernacki Organization: Netscape, Floating Point Division X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Stan Barber , Erik E Fair CC: NNTP Working Group Subject: ietf-nntp Request for WG Document Status X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/x-pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="------------ms5BD17D7187E37BC21B60F1E7" Sender: owner-ietf-nntp@academ.com Precedence: bulk This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms5BD17D7187E37BC21B60F1E7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Stan/Erik, Could you let us know what the current status of the 977bis document and the working group are? It seems from the recent lack of postings to the list that most of the debate has died down. I think it's time we get our hands on the draft again and start talking. We have an IETF coming up in about a month and a half (and the submission deadlines are fast approaching). I don't know about anyone else, but I'm anxious to get this stuff locked down so I can start developing for it. --brian --------------ms5BD17D7187E37BC21B60F1E7 Content-Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature MIIGxQYJKoZIhvcNAQcCoIIGtjCCBrICAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMAsGCSqGSIb3DQEHAaCC BSwwggJrMIIB1KADAgECAgIA8zANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQQFADB3MQswCQYDVQQGEwJVUzEsMCoG A1UEChMjTmV0c2NhcGUgQ29tbXVuaWNhdGlvbnMgQ29ycG9yYXRpb24xHDAaBgNVBAsTE0lu Zm9ybWF0aW9uIFN5c3RlbXMxHDAaBgNVBAMTE3Jvb3RjYS5uZXRzY2FwZS5jb20wHhcNOTcw NTE1MTgzNzIxWhcNOTcxMTExMTgzNzIxWjCBijELMAkGA1UEBhMCVVMxJjAkBgNVBAoTHU5l dHNjYXBlIENvbW11bmljYXRpb25zIENvcnAuMRkwFwYDVQQDExBCcmlhbiBKIEhlcm5hY2tp MSEwHwYJKoZIhvcNAQkBFhJiaGVybkBuZXRzY2FwZS5jb20xFTATBgoJkiaJk/IsZAEBEwVi aGVybjBcMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAQUAA0sAMEgCQQDnm6RBttHdlGpLUivmNz/rn407/UcsMRpB U0ogpEAOi/102givm1bnuiqM31gwBrRF87qgB4+R/oqgJfR4g1tPAgMBAAGjNjA0MBEGCWCG SAGG+EIBAQQEAwIAoDAfBgNVHSMEGDAWgBT84FToB/GV3jr3mcau+hUMbsQukjANBgkqhkiG 9w0BAQQFAAOBgQA88Ot8Z2n0Yc77AFJj6i510WiHuy6n0SBdYKapMTyToGzEYe+Urq6OL9Zr 2JavqCBaBVex2Qc0JhpCGOJM1x0MI1UQ4njaWTe69pXs6SF4ywLfFzx8WJNvbbNwriooHpAd NDLIQ4HmNY667FJz9ru1ypsBfIQ7NNjuNJEo+/4imzCCArkwggIioAMCAQICAQEwDQYJKoZI hvcNAQEEBQAwdzELMAkGA1UEBhMCVVMxLDAqBgNVBAoTI05ldHNjYXBlIENvbW11bmljYXRp b25zIENvcnBvcmF0aW9uMRwwGgYDVQQLExNJbmZvcm1hdGlvbiBTeXN0ZW1zMRwwGgYDVQQD ExNyb290Y2EubmV0c2NhcGUuY29tMB4XDTk3MDMyNjAxNDQzOFoXDTk5MDMyNjAxNDQzOFow dzELMAkGA1UEBhMCVVMxLDAqBgNVBAoTI05ldHNjYXBlIENvbW11bmljYXRpb25zIENvcnBv cmF0aW9uMRwwGgYDVQQLExNJbmZvcm1hdGlvbiBTeXN0ZW1zMRwwGgYDVQQDExNyb290Y2Eu bmV0c2NhcGUuY29tMIGfMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAQUAA4GNADCBiQKBgQDBqj7+LT+lh8NH3/va bdgYoEU9+cebQ84ntFoTnBF9v9LyiF7Hv7KLebqn5SgLQKaOmTFVxfjOlgZeIoR2vwEiYsOp mSe7CGgRFMcKftyyh/jH4CQwAbwtloXnGcMuoZN3LDQYL/vfokiz56CvegPki4x1pC2TIIwg OVSnRbpAZQIDAQABo1UwUzARBglghkgBhvhCAQEEBAMCAAQwHQYDVR0OBBYEFPzgVOgH8ZXe OveZxq76FQxuxC6SMB8GA1UdIwQYMBaAFPzgVOgH8ZXeOveZxq76FQxuxC6SMA0GCSqGSIb3 DQEBBAUAA4GBAFn32xtcegbE5sWYYYQYzvoGSyCxJMr8WX4/GPHkvqwQ2UrSaY9u/JHK9QQc Cq65+so57E0AGaZnlMzlQFtZhCSS8AEsGeQLLzsc9g8bhUXsw5fx4LpAy91XcYngi0lwSR/d tss0b2/PLyHkU9EZZo9nYvDd7h1IKvBHe4N0h3nIMYIBYTCCAV0CAQEwfTB3MQswCQYDVQQG EwJVUzEsMCoGA1UEChMjTmV0c2NhcGUgQ29tbXVuaWNhdGlvbnMgQ29ycG9yYXRpb24xHDAa BgNVBAsTE0luZm9ybWF0aW9uIFN5c3RlbXMxHDAaBgNVBAMTE3Jvb3RjYS5uZXRzY2FwZS5j b20CAgDzMAkGBSsOAwIaBQCgfTAYBgkqhkiG9w0BCQMxCwYJKoZIhvcNAQcBMCMGCSqGSIb3 DQEJBDEWBBQYQLSqpKuAp+ysiwZPQcJ1gIsX8TAcBgkqhkiG9w0BCQUxDxcNOTcwNjI3MTY0 NjI4WjAeBgkqhkiG9w0BCQ8xETAPMA0GCCqGSIb3DQMCAgEoMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAQUABEDd aOPVG8dOqDbV56oMUxMm93FlFDmqxqS9qzWwjGCTgXyzMfSX2nUytaSUYZCmHvTG1MmhE9+3 PXlY2ieMNVfU --------------ms5BD17D7187E37BC21B60F1E7--   Received: from cnri by ietf.org id aa19453; 30 Jun 97 19:01 EDT Received: from announcer.academ.com (majordomo@ANNOUNCER.ACADEM.COM [198.137.249.60]) by cnri.reston.va.us (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTPid TAA17349 for ; Mon, 30 Jun 1997 19:00:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by announcer.academ.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA17276 for ietf-nntp-outgoing; Mon, 30 Jun 1997 17:49:55 -0500 (CDT) Received: from academ.com (root@ACADEM.COM [198.137.249.2]) by announcer.academ.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA17271 for ; Mon, 30 Jun 1997 17:49:54 -0500 (CDT) Received: from freenet.msp.mn.us (root@freenet.msp.mn.us [206.8.96.2]) by academ.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA05166 for ; Mon, 30 Jun 1997 17:49:41 -0500 (CDT) Received: from infinia ([198.174.133.64]) by freenet.msp.mn.us (8.7.3/8.6.10) with SMTP id WAA08933 for ; Mon, 30 Jun 1997 22:48:03 GMT Message-Id: <199706302248.WAA08933@freenet.msp.mn.us> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Steven Clift To: ietf-nntp@academ.com Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 17:47:41 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: ietf-nntp Newsgroups - Geographic Directories, E-mail/WWW Gateways Reply-to: clift@freenet.msp.mn.us X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54) Sender: owner-ietf-nntp@academ.com Precedence: bulk Greetings, I just discovered the archive for ietf-nntp. From a news group hierarchy non-technical developers perspective (gov., future mncc) what you are doing seems important. I wanted to ask your advice about the second part of my enclosed message on "Making the Internet a Communities Network". Basically I am working with folks in Minnesota to build an interactive grid for community conferencing - using the tools of the global Internet to create "digital crossroads" for people, potential down to the block club level to communicate. I want to make this part of the Internet, not just some specialized, unsustainable WWW conference. It seems that news with well designed e-mail and WWW gateways (to allow people to choose their preferred interaction technology - leaving the different cultures that seem to emerge base on the technological implementations) could provide the necessary platform. I'd like to hear (privately is fine, if this is out of the scope of this list) your reaction to my concepts below and any nuggets of truth about how the next generation of nntp will make community conferencing with geography and mulitple interfaces a reality. Thanks, Steven Clift clift@freenet.msp.mn.us http://freenet.msp.mn.us/people/clift Democracies Online Co-Editor G7 Government Online and Democracy White Paper From: Steven Clift To: edem-elect@mtn.org, ispo@www.ispo.cec.be, iacn@sheffield.ac.uk, communet@list.uvm.edu, mcowork@mtn.org Date sent: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 15:01:20 +0000 Subject: Making the Internet a Communites Network Making the Internet a Communities Network ----------------------------------------- I collected e-mail addresses at my block picnic the other week. In fact I have heard about a number of spontaneous collections across the Twin Cities. Imagine ... "Does anyone have a a cup of sugar?" "Who has my hammer?" "My car was broken into last night, did anyone see anything?" When it comes to building online local civic interactive spaces or Internet directories, I think we need to do some creative thinking. Relying on only manually maintained directories of WWW sites, newsgroups, e-mail lists, and WWW boards is not very sustainable nor effective. I think proposals to Internet standards bodies could make the Internet as a whole a foundation for online communities where _geography_ matters! The true lesson of the Internet is that open and scalable standards create the opportunity for information sharing and participation. We tend to think about how the WWW makes providing information so much easier, but we often forget that there are ways that we can make locating information and creation of interactive spaces easier through widely used standards. It is time to move from just Hyper-text Transfer Protocal (HTTP) to a Hyper-text Community Location Protocol. :-) Here is what I'd like to see: 1. Comprehensive Internet directories that allow someone to locate an Internet resource (WWW, e-mail list, newsgroup, chat, etc.) based on geographical attributes. 2. A "Global Grid for Community Conferencing" that combines standard geographical naming spaces with standard protocols for exchanging messages among news groups, WWW boards, and e-mail lists. Directories ----------- There is a desperate need for standardized "meta data" to be collected and shared about WWW sites, servers, e-mail lists, etc.. I wonder if details on a WWW server could be inputed to tell the world about their location (or preferred public locus). I wonder what kinds of files with meta data could be positioned for WWW harvesters to use to allow map based access to the files they have gathered? What we need is a standardized file that contains information about a specific Internet "event". Items might include the name of the site, key words, language(s), and something like a Global Positioning System attribute that pin points the geographical center of a service and allows for definition of geographic parameters for the target audience (which could be from the neighborhood up to world wide.) Then the basic standard would encourage Internet indices to compete based on designing systems with the information available versus who happened to have it submitted or not. Ideally a special WWW page with the proper META tags or some other standard way I don't know about, could exist that would indicate information about a WWW site, sub-site or other Internet items so that manual submission could be avoided. I doubt that Yahoo and other groups could agree to a standardized subject word scheme, so let's assume that people would still have to submit information to subject tree based WWW directories like that. So does anyone have any clue as to who might be interested in this idea? Which Internet standards groups should/are taking this on? Who are some big thinkers in the right place that could make something happen here? I am just throwing this idea out there, feel free to grab it and make it happen. Global Grid for Community Conferencing -------------------------------------- While the commercial world races to invent the perfect WWW conferencing system that makes them rich by becoming the standard, I suggest the problem is more about building and maintaining participation than perfecting technology. When I talk about community conferencing am not talking about "groupware" nor the attributes required for decision-making or sharing of working documents. I am interested in basic text communication. It all comes back to my block club and we don't need anything fancy. While we could include all of our e-mail addresses in the To: field into the next century, might there be a way that we can leverage the fact the in the next few years millions of block clubs will be looking to use interactive online spaces? Two images that illustrate the "Civic Participation Center" we have experienced to some extent with the MN-POLITICS forum are at: http://www.e-democracy.org/intl/library/models/circles1.gif http://www.e-democracy.org/intl/library/models/circles2.gif Let's take this concept right down to the block level! Here is what conceptually I'd like to see in a lower common denominator community conferencing system: 1. The ability to choose your preferred interaction technology - e-mail, news, or WWW. 2. Allow the commitment and convenience of e-mail. 3. Leverage news style group nomination (for online interactive spaces) and name space with strong geographical attributes, and the store and forward distribution. 4. Allow for group directory search and archive retrieval and posting through the WWW. A potential WWW directory of participants would be very useful. There are scores of gateway products between mail-to-news or mail-to-WWW, but I have yet to find a product that attempts to weave all three together in an optimized fashion. I'll hold off on my other detailed thoughts, and instead suggest how my block club might find itself listed someday in a community conferencing system (I don't think you would want to have global distribution down to this level, around Minnesota is fine): mncc.ci.minneapolis.nb.carag.bc.3400fremontaves mncc - Minnesota Communities Conference (Made up) ci - city based on U.S. domain (co - county, tn - township, etc.) minneapolis - we have 826 cities and 87 counties in MN nb - neighborhood carag - there are something like 80 neighborhoods here bc - block club or building club 3400fremontaves - I live on the 3400 block Now at any level you could have "topic" or "group" terms to encourage issue and interest based discussions. You could also create generalist forums. Assuming from the start that lots of people will prefer e-mail access you need to scope volume and types of interaction into different forums. At the city level perhaps might might have the following general forums: mncc.ci.minneapolis.bulletin - Community Announcement Bulletin Board mncc.ci.minneapolis.commons - Minneapolis Community Issues Commons mncc.ci.minneapolis.open - Minneapolitan Open Discussion The bulletin would be for one-way announcements, the commons would be the primary community issues discussion forum with a facilitator and specific posting guidelines (like no more than two posts person per day - assuming lots of e-mail subscribers that would leave if the volume was too high), and the open group would be the free speech space for people in Minneapolis to talk about whatever they want (due to volume it would be assumed that you would have few e-mail subscribers). A lot of my thinking on this comes from my participation in the GOVNEWS effort (http://www.govnews.org). The approach above is sort of a bubble up complement that assumes that at the local level community issues are more people to people issues than governmental or at least that government would join the conversation, but not technically be deeply involved for some time. What do folks think about this idea? Sometime in the next year I will likely propose to the Minnesota E-Democracy board that we initiate a Minnesota-wide project with many partners (non-profit, public, and private) to develop such a community-oriented system. If others parts of the world are considering similar projects, we should link up. While the structural implementation might vary tremendously from area to area, the basic tools and experiences will have universal application. Thanks for reading this far. Cheers, Steven Clift Board Chair Minnesota E-Democracy clift@freenet.msp.mn.us -------------------------------------------------------- Steven L. Clift - clift@freenet.msp.mn.us Minneapolis, Minnesota - 612-824-3747 http://freenet.msp.mn.us/people/clift/ - Home Page http://www.e-democracy.org - Minnesota E-Democracy http://www.hhh.umn.edu/PUBPOL/ - Public Policy Network -------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------- Steven L. Clift - clift@freenet.msp.mn.us Minneapolis, Minnesota - 612-824-3747 http://freenet.msp.mn.us/people/clift/ - Home Page http://www.e-democracy.org - Minnesota E-Democracy http://www.hhh.umn.edu/PUBPOL/ - Public Policy Network --------------------------------------------------------   Received: from cnri by ietf.org id aa24401; 30 Jun 97 22:38 EDT Received: from announcer.academ.com (majordomo@ANNOUNCER.ACADEM.COM [198.137.249.60]) by cnri.reston.va.us (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTPid WAA17906 for ; Mon, 30 Jun 1997 22:37:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by announcer.academ.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA17680 for ietf-nntp-outgoing; Mon, 30 Jun 1997 21:29:02 -0500 (CDT) Received: from academ.com (root@ACADEM.COM [198.137.249.2]) by announcer.academ.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA17675 for ; Mon, 30 Jun 1997 21:29:00 -0500 (CDT) Received: from freenet.msp.mn.us (root@freenet.msp.mn.us [206.8.96.2]) by academ.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA07172 for ; Mon, 30 Jun 1997 21:28:46 -0500 (CDT) Received: from infinia ([198.174.133.41]) by freenet.msp.mn.us (8.7.3/8.6.10) with SMTP id CAA19183 for ; Tue, 1 Jul 1997 02:27:10 GMT Message-Id: <199707010227.CAA19183@freenet.msp.mn.us> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Steven Clift To: ietf-nntp@academ.com Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 17:53:54 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: ietf-nntp Newsgroups - Geographic Directories, E-mail/WWW Gateways Reply-to: clift@freenet.msp.mn.us X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54) Sender: owner-ietf-nntp@academ.com Precedence: bulk Greetings, I just discovered the archive for ietf-nntp. From a news group hierarchy non-technical developers perspective (gov., future mncc) what you are doing seems important. I wanted to ask your advice about the second part of my enclosed message on "Making the Internet a Communities Network". Basically I am working with folks in Minnesota to build an interactive grid for community conferencing - using the tools of the global Internet to create "digital crossroads" for people, potential down to the block club level to communicate. I want to make this part of the Internet, not just some specialized, unsustainable WWW conference. It seems that news with well designed e-mail and WWW gateways (to allow people to choose their preferred interaction technology - leaving the different cultures that seem to emerge base on the technological implementations) could provide the necessary platform. I'd like to hear (privately is fine, if this is out of the scope of this list) your reaction to my concepts below and any nuggets of truth about how the next generation of nntp will make community conferencing with geography and mulitple interfaces a reality. Thanks, Steven Clift clift@freenet.msp.mn.us http://freenet.msp.mn.us/people/clift Democracies Online Co-Editor G7 Government Online and Democracy White Paper From: Steven Clift To: edem-elect@mtn.org, ispo@www.ispo.cec.be, iacn@sheffield.ac.uk, communet@list.uvm.edu, mcowork@mtn.org Date sent: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 15:01:20 +0000 Subject: Making the Internet a Communites Network Making the Internet a Communities Network ----------------------------------------- I collected e-mail addresses at my block picnic the other week. In fact I have heard about a number of spontaneous collections across the Twin Cities. Imagine ... "Does anyone have a a cup of sugar?" "Who has my hammer?" "My car was broken into last night, did anyone see anything?" When it comes to building online local civic interactive spaces or Internet directories, I think we need to do some creative thinking. Relying on only manually maintained directories of WWW sites, newsgroups, e-mail lists, and WWW boards is not very sustainable nor effective. I think proposals to Internet standards bodies could make the Internet as a whole a foundation for online communities where _geography_ matters! The true lesson of the Internet is that open and scalable standards create the opportunity for information sharing and participation. We tend to think about how the WWW makes providing information so much easier, but we often forget that there are ways that we can make locating information and creation of interactive spaces easier through widely used standards. It is time to move from just Hyper-text Transfer Protocal (HTTP) to a Hyper-text Community Location Protocol. :-) Here is what I'd like to see: 1. Comprehensive Internet directories that allow someone to locate an Internet resource (WWW, e-mail list, newsgroup, chat, etc.) based on geographical attributes. 2. A "Global Grid for Community Conferencing" that combines standard geographical naming spaces with standard protocols for exchanging messages among news groups, WWW boards, and e-mail lists. Directories ----------- There is a desperate need for standardized "meta data" to be collected and shared about WWW sites, servers, e-mail lists, etc.. I wonder if details on a WWW server could be inputed to tell the world about their location (or preferred public locus). I wonder what kinds of files with meta data could be positioned for WWW harvesters to use to allow map based access to the files they have gathered? What we need is a standardized file that contains information about a specific Internet "event". Items might include the name of the site, key words, language(s), and something like a Global Positioning System attribute that pin points the geographical center of a service and allows for definition of geographic parameters for the target audience (which could be from the neighborhood up to world wide.) Then the basic standard would encourage Internet indices to compete based on designing systems with the information available versus who happened to have it submitted or not. Ideally a special WWW page with the proper META tags or some other standard way I don't know about, could exist that would indicate information about a WWW site, sub-site or other Internet items so that manual submission could be avoided. I doubt that Yahoo and other groups could agree to a standardized subject word scheme, so let's assume that people would still have to submit information to subject tree based WWW directories like that. So does anyone have any clue as to who might be interested in this idea? Which Internet standards groups should/are taking this on? Who are some big thinkers in the right place that could make something happen here? I am just throwing this idea out there, feel free to grab it and make it happen. Global Grid for Community Conferencing -------------------------------------- While the commercial world races to invent the perfect WWW conferencing system that makes them rich by becoming the standard, I suggest the problem is more about building and maintaining participation than perfecting technology. When I talk about community conferencing am not talking about "groupware" nor the attributes required for decision-making or sharing of working documents. I am interested in basic text communication. It all comes back to my block club and we don't need anything fancy. While we could include all of our e-mail addresses in the To: field into the next century, might there be a way that we can leverage the fact the in the next few years millions of block clubs will be looking to use interactive online spaces? Two images that illustrate the "Civic Participation Center" we have experienced to some extent with the MN-POLITICS forum are at: http://www.e-democracy.org/intl/library/models/circles1.gif http://www.e-democracy.org/intl/library/models/circles2.gif Let's take this concept right down to the block level! Here is what conceptually I'd like to see in a lower common denominator community conferencing system: 1. The ability to choose your preferred interaction technology - e-mail, news, or WWW. 2. Allow the commitment and convenience of e-mail. 3. Leverage news style group nomination (for online interactive spaces) and name space with strong geographical attributes, and the store and forward distribution. 4. Allow for group directory search and archive retrieval and posting through the WWW. A potential WWW directory of participants would be very useful. There are scores of gateway products between mail-to-news or mail-to-WWW, but I have yet to find a product that attempts to weave all three together in an optimized fashion. I'll hold off on my other detailed thoughts, and instead suggest how my block club might find itself listed someday in a community conferencing system (I don't think you would want to have global distribution down to this level, around Minnesota is fine): mncc.ci.minneapolis.nb.carag.bc.3400fremontaves mncc - Minnesota Communities Conference (Made up) ci - city based on U.S. domain (co - county, tn - township, etc.) minneapolis - we have 826 cities and 87 counties in MN nb - neighborhood carag - there are something like 80 neighborhoods here bc - block club or building club 3400fremontaves - I live on the 3400 block Now at any level you could have "topic" or "group" terms to encourage issue and interest based discussions. You could also create generalist forums. Assuming from the start that lots of people will prefer e-mail access you need to scope volume and types of interaction into different forums. At the city level perhaps might might have the following general forums: mncc.ci.minneapolis.bulletin - Community Announcement Bulletin Board mncc.ci.minneapolis.commons - Minneapolis Community Issues Commons mncc.ci.minneapolis.open - Minneapolitan Open Discussion The bulletin would be for one-way announcements, the commons would be the primary community issues discussion forum with a facilitator and specific posting guidelines (like no more than two posts person per day - assuming lots of e-mail subscribers that would leave if the volume was too high), and the open group would be the free speech space for people in Minneapolis to talk about whatever they want (due to volume it would be assumed that you would have few e-mail subscribers). A lot of my thinking on this comes from my participation in the GOVNEWS effort (http://www.govnews.org). The approach above is sort of a bubble up complement that assumes that at the local level community issues are more people to people issues than governmental or at least that government would join the conversation, but not technically be deeply involved for some time. What do folks think about this idea? Sometime in the next year I will likely propose to the Minnesota E-Democracy board that we initiate a Minnesota-wide project with many partners (non-profit, public, and private) to develop such a community-oriented system. If others parts of the world are considering similar projects, we should link up. While the structural implementation might vary tremendously from area to area, the basic tools and experiences will have universal application. Thanks for reading this far. Cheers, Steven Clift Board Chair Minnesota E-Democracy clift@freenet.msp.mn.us -------------------------------------------------------- Steven L. Clift - clift@freenet.msp.mn.us Minneapolis, Minnesota - 612-824-3747 http://freenet.msp.mn.us/people/clift/ - Home Page http://www.e-democracy.org - Minnesota E-Democracy http://www.hhh.umn.edu/PUBPOL/ - Public Policy Network -------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------- Steven L. Clift - clift@freenet.msp.mn.us Minneapolis, Minnesota - 612-824-3747 http://freenet.msp.mn.us/people/clift/ - Home Page http://www.e-democracy.org - Minnesota E-Democracy http://www.hhh.umn.edu/PUBPOL/ - Public Policy Network --------------------------------------------------------