From rem-conf Wed Jan 03 02:23:17 2001 From rem-conf-request@es.net Wed Jan 03 02:23:16 2001 Received: from list by mail1.es.net with local (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14Dkpd-00070X-00; Wed, 3 Jan 2001 02:07:45 -0800 Received: from pelican.tk.uni-linz.ac.at [140.78.188.41] (root) by mail1.es.net with esmtp (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14Dkpb-00070N-00; Wed, 3 Jan 2001 02:07:43 -0800 Received: from olibaer (olibaer.tk.uni-linz.ac.at [140.78.92.45]) by pelican.tk.uni-linz.ac.at (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id LAA10603 for ; Wed, 3 Jan 2001 11:07:30 +0100 (MET) From: Michael Welzl Sender: "Michael Welzl" To: Subject: Deadline extension: CFP Special session "ABR to the Internet", SCI 2001 Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 11:14:57 +0100 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.3825.400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by pelican.tk.uni-linz.ac.at id LAA10603 X-Mailing-List: X-Loop: rem-conf@es.net Precedence: list The deadline for submission of extended abstracts has been extended to January 18th. -------------------------------------------------------------------- C A L L F O R P A P E R S Special Session: ABR to the Internet =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D THE 5TH WORLD MULTICONFERENCE ON SYSTEMICS, CYBERNETICS AND INFORMATICS SCI'2001 July, 22-25, 2001 Orlando, Florida(USA) Sheraton World http://www.iiis.org/sci/ THE "ABR TO THE INTERNET" SESSION: ATM's "Available Bit Rate" (ABR) service provides a dramatically reduced cell loss ratio by means of a signaling mechanism called "Explicit Rate Feedback"; information from the network is provided to end nodes in order= to facilitate adaptation. On the contrary, adaptive Internet applications rely on mechanisms that probe the network in order to avoid congestions; packet loss must be experienced before it can be avoided on a long term basis. Developers of commercial applications seem to avoid adaptation because they don't see enough QoS benefit. SCOPE: As a first step, we have seen ECN enhance adaptation on the Internet. We are looking for papers that represent the next step. Topics of interest include, but are not limited to, the following questio= ns: * What data should be provided to end nodes? * Which QoS could be achieved? * Where should the signaling take place? (end2end, edge2edge, core, ...) * How do we deal with path changes? * Can the signaling be incorporated with DiffServ, MPLS, ...? * What about fairness issues and TCP-friendliness? SUBMISSION OF PAPERS: Prospective authors are invited to submit an extended abstract (about 1.5= to 2 pages) to Michael Welzl (michael@tk.uni-linz.ac.at) in postscript, PDF = or Word 97 format. English is the official language of SCI 2001, thus all papers must be submitted and presented in English. EVALUATION PROCESS: Papers will be evaluated for originality, significance, clarity, and soundness. Each paper will be refereed by several researchers in the topical area. THE CONFERENCE: SCI 2001 is an international forum for scientists and engineers, research= ers and consultants, theoreticians and practitioners in the fields of Systemi= cs, Cybernetics and Informatics. It is a forum for focused disciplinary research, as well as for multi, inter and transdiciplinary studies and projects. One of its aims is to relate disciplines fostering analogical thinking and, hence, producing input to the logical thinking. Invited Sessions with high quality papers might be selected for multiple author book publications. Two books are being published now as result of good invited sessions. IMPORTANT DATES: 18. 01. Submission of extended abstracts (1.5 - 2 pages) 16. 02. Notification of acceptance 13. 04. full papers due All accepted papers are expected to be presented at the conference. OTHER INFORMATION: It is planned to hold a BOF session on "ABR to the Internet" at a future IETF meeting; authors are invited to join this collaborative effort which may eventually be a realization of this session's topic. Further informat= ion on the BOF can be found at http://www.tk.uni-linz.ac.at/~michael/ptp SESSION CHAIR / CONTACT: Michael Welzl Telecooperation Group Dpt. of Computer Science Johannes Kepler University of Linz Altenberger Str. 69 A-4040 Linz, Austria Phone: +43 (732) 2468 - 9264 Fax: +43 (732) 2468 - 9829 E-mail: michael@tk.uni-linz.ac.at SESSION CO-CHAIR: Prof. Dr. Max M=FChlh=E4user TU Darmstadt - FB 20 FG Telekooperation Alexanderstrasse 6, D-64283 Darmstadt / Germany Phone: +49 (6151) 16 - 3709 Fax: +49 (6151) 16 - 3052 Refer to http://www.tk.uni-linz.ac.at/~michael/abr2internet for up-to-dat= e information. From rem-conf Wed Jan 03 04:21:05 2001 From rem-conf-request@es.net Wed Jan 03 04:21:03 2001 Received: from list by mail1.es.net with local (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14Dms1-0000pZ-00; Wed, 3 Jan 2001 04:18:21 -0800 Received: from odin.ietf.org (ietf.org) [132.151.1.176] by mail1.es.net with esmtp (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14Dmry-0000pP-00; Wed, 3 Jan 2001 04:18:19 -0800 Received: from CNRI.Reston.VA.US (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA18320; Wed, 3 Jan 2001 07:18:15 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200101031218.HAA18320@ietf.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" To: IETF-Announce: ; Cc: rem-conf@es.net From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Reply-to: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-avt-rtp-mp3-05.txt Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 07:18:15 -0500 Sender: nsyracus@cnri.reston.va.us X-Mailing-List: X-Loop: rem-conf@es.net Precedence: list --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Audio/Video Transport Working Group of the IETF. Title : A More Loss-Tolerant RTP Payload Format for MP3 Audio Author(s) : R. Finlayson Filename : draft-ietf-avt-rtp-mp3-05.txt Pages : Date : 02-Jan-01 This document describes a RTP payload format for transporting MPEG 1 or 2,layer III audio (commonly known as 'MP3'). This format is an alternative to that described in RFC 2250, and performs better if there is packet loss. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-avt-rtp-mp3-05.txt Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-ietf-avt-rtp-mp3-05.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-avt-rtp-mp3-05.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; Boundary="OtherAccess" --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; access-type="mail-server"; server="mailserv@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <20010102133657.I-D@ietf.org> ENCODING mime FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-avt-rtp-mp3-05.txt --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-avt-rtp-mp3-05.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <20010102133657.I-D@ietf.org> --OtherAccess-- --NextPart-- From rem-conf Wed Jan 03 04:21:05 2001 From rem-conf-request@es.net Wed Jan 03 04:21:03 2001 Received: from list by mail1.es.net with local (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14Dms4-0000pl-00; Wed, 3 Jan 2001 04:18:24 -0800 Received: from odin.ietf.org (ietf.org) [132.151.1.176] by mail1.es.net with esmtp (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14Dms2-0000pb-00; Wed, 3 Jan 2001 04:18:22 -0800 Received: from CNRI.Reston.VA.US (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA18336; Wed, 3 Jan 2001 07:18:20 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200101031218.HAA18336@ietf.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" To: IETF-Announce: ; Cc: rem-conf@es.net From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Reply-to: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-avt-rtp-amr-02.txt Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 07:18:19 -0500 Sender: nsyracus@cnri.reston.va.us X-Mailing-List: X-Loop: rem-conf@es.net Precedence: list --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Audio/Video Transport Working Group of the IETF. Title : RTP payload format for AMR Author(s) : J. Sjoberg, M. Westerlund, A. Lakaniemi, P. Koskelainen, B. Wimmer, T. Fingscheidt, Q. Xie, S. Gupta Filename : draft-ietf-avt-rtp-amr-02.txt Pages : 18 Date : 02-Jan-01 This document describes a proposed real-time transport protocol (RTP) [8] payload format for AMR speech encoded [1] signals. The AMR payload format is designed to be able to interoperate with existing AMR transport formats. This document also includes a MIME type registration for AMR. The MIME type is specified for both real-time transport and storage. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-avt-rtp-amr-02.txt Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-ietf-avt-rtp-amr-02.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-avt-rtp-amr-02.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; Boundary="OtherAccess" --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; access-type="mail-server"; server="mailserv@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <20010102133711.I-D@ietf.org> ENCODING mime FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-avt-rtp-amr-02.txt --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-avt-rtp-amr-02.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <20010102133711.I-D@ietf.org> --OtherAccess-- --NextPart-- From rem-conf Wed Jan 03 15:36:40 2001 From rem-conf-request@es.net Wed Jan 03 15:36:39 2001 Received: from list by mail1.es.net with local (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14DxLB-0000PR-00; Wed, 3 Jan 2001 15:29:09 -0800 Received: from toaster.gm.ufz.de (toaster) [192.129.18.168] by mail1.es.net with esmtp (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14DxL8-0000Ox-00; Wed, 3 Jan 2001 15:29:06 -0800 Received: from kilman3 (1Cust128.tnt5.mia5.da.uu.net [63.30.205.128]) by toaster (980427.SGI.8.8.8/980728.SGI.AUTOCF) via SMTP id QAA34344; Wed, 3 Jan 2001 16:27:10 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 16:27:10 -0800 (PST) From: under9888@0rp2h5.net Message-Id: <200101040027.QAA34344@toaster> To: under9888@kom.id.ethz.ch Subject: Make $50,000 in 90 Days!!! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=unknown-8bit X-Mailing-List: X-Loop: rem-conf@es.net Precedence: list So, How in the heck have you been? Do you remember holding previous conversations regarding business and money making opportunities. I did not send this to you in error! You said: "If only I could find an easier way to make a higher income" and "If I had more money, I could spend more time with my Family, and less time at work" and "I sure could use more money so I could pay off my bills once and for all!" and "I would love to get involved in a business in which will generate money while I am not at work (like a Gas Pump)" Dear Friend, There is a possibility that we haven't met, but you were chosen by someone to recieve this E-Mail. Please, please, print this off and read thoroughly. Be sure that you don't miss any of the points outlined. Then put it down, and then read it again. I am sending you a whole lot of information in which you might not understand the first time you read it. If you don't believe this program will work for you, send it to 10-20 of your closest friends (in which you trust deeply), and ask them what they think? This really works! Have the faith, don't miss this opportunity, get involved also, and it will work for you as it does for us!!!!! Due to the popularity of this letter on the Internet, A MAJOR NIGHTLY NEWS Program recently dedicated entire show to the investigation of the program described below to see if it really can make people money. The show also investigated whether or not the program was legal. Their findings proved that there are absolutely no laws prohibiting the participation in the program. This has helped to show people that this is a simple, harmless and fun way to make some extra money at home. The results have been truly remarkable. So many people are participating that those involved are doing much better than ever before. Since everyone makes more as more people try it out, its been very exciting. You will understand only if you get involved! ********* THE ENTIRE PLAN IS HERE BELOW ********* *** Print This Now For Future Reference *** $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ If you would like to make AT LEAST $50,000 in less than 90 days! If not, forward this to someone who would like to make this kind of money....... It works (like designed) but only for those who follow it to the letter! Please read this program...THEN READ IT AGAIN!! $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ THIS IS A LEGITIMATE, LEGAL, MONEY MAKING OPPORTUNITY!! It does NOT require you to come into contact with people or make or take any telephone calls. Just follow the instructions, and you will make money. This simplified e- mail marketing program works perfectly 100% EVERY TIME! E-mail is the sales tool of the future. Take advantage of this virtually free method of advertising NOW!!! The longer you wait, the more people will be doing business using email. Get your piece of this action!!! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Hello - My name is Johnathon Rourke, I'm from Rhode Island. The enclosed information is something I almost let slip through my fingers. Fortunately, sometime later I re-read everything and gave some thought and study to it. Two years ago, the corporation I worked for the past twelve years down-sized and my position was eliminated. After unproductive job interviews, I decided to open my own business. Over the past year, I incurred many unforeseen financial problems. I owed my family, friends and creditors over $35,000. The economy was taking a toll on my business and I just couldn't seem to make ends meet. I had to refinance and borrow against my home to support my family and struggling business. AT THAT MOMENT something significant happened in my life. I am writing to share the experience in hopes that this could change your life FOREVER. FINANCIALLY$$$!!! In mid December, I received this program in my e-mail. Six months prior to receiving this program I had been sending away for information on various business opportunities. All of the programs I received, in my opinion, were not cost effective. They were either too difficult for me to comprehend or the initial investment was too much for me to risk to see if they would work. But as I was saying, in December of 1997 I received this program. I didn't send for it, or ask for it, they just got my name off a mailing list. THANK GOODNESS FOR THAT!!! After reading it several times, to make sure I was reading it correctly. I couldn't believe my eyes! Here was a MONEY MAKING MACHINE I could start immediately without any debt. Like most of you I was still a little skeptical and a little worried about the legal aspects of it all. So I checked it out with the U.S. Post Office (1-800-725-2161 24-hrs) and they confirmed that it is indeed legal! After determining the program was LEGAL I decided "WHY NOT!?!??" Initially I sent out 10,000 e-mails. It cost me about $15 for my time on-line. The great thing about e-mail is that I don't need any for printing to send out the program, and because I also send the product (reports) by e-mail, my only expense is my time. In less than one week, I was starting to receive orders for REPORT #1. By January 13, I had received 26 orders for REPORT #1. Your goal is to "RECEIVE at least 20 ORDERS FOR REPORT #1 WITHIN 2 WEEKS. IF YOU DON'T, SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO. My first step in making $50,000 in 90 days was done. By January 30, I had received 196 orders for REPORT #2. Your goal is to "RECEIVE AT LEAST 100+ ORDERS FOR REPORT #2 WITHIN 2 WEEKS. IF NOT, SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO. ONCE YOU HAVE 100 ORDERS, THE REST IS EASY, RELAX, YOU WILL MAKE YOUR $50,000 GOAL." Well, I had 196 orders for REPORT #2. 96 more than I needed. So I sat back and relaxed. By March 1, of my e-mailing of 10,000, received $58,000 with more coming in every day. I paid off ALL my debts and bought a much needed new car! Please take your time to read this plan, IT WILL CHANGE YOUR LIFE FOREVER$!!! Remember, it won't work if you don't try it. This program does work, BUT you must follow it EXACTLY! Especially the rules of not trying to place your name in a different place. It won't work and you'll lose out on a lot of money! In order for this program to work, you must meet your goal of 20+ orders for REPORT #1, and 100+ orders for REPORT #2 and you will make $50,000 or more in 90 days. I AM LIVING PROOF THAT IT WORKS!!! If you choose not to participate in this program, I am sorry. It really is a great opportunity with little cost or risk to you. If you choose to participate, follow the program and you will be on your way to financial security. If you are a fellow business owner and are in financial trouble like I was, or you want to start your own business, consider this a sign. I DID! $$ Sincerely, Johnathon Rourke ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ A PERSONAL NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM: By the time you have read the enclosed program and reports, you should have concluded that such a program, and one that is legal, could not have been created by an amateur. Let me tell you a little about myself. I had a profitable business for 10 years. Then in 1979 my business began falling off. I was doing the same things that were previously successful for me, but it wasn't working. Finally, I figured it out. It wasn't me, it was the economy. Inflation and recession had replaced the stable economy that had been with us since 1945. I don't have to tell you what happened to the unemployment rate... because many of you know from first hand experience. There were more failures and bankruptcies than ever before. The middle class was vanishing. Those who knew what they were doing invested wisely and moved up. Those who did not, including those who never had anything to save or invest, were moving down into the ranks of the poor. As the saying goes, "THE RICH GET RICHER AND THE POOR GET POORER." The traditional methods of making money will never allow you to"move up" or "get rich", inflation will see to that. You have just received information that can give you financial freedom for the rest of your life, with "NO RISK" and "JUST A LITTLE BIT OF EFFORT." You can make more money in the next few months than you have ever imagined. I should also point out that I will not see a penny of this money, nor anyone else who has provided a testimonial for this program. I have retired from the program after sending thousands and thousands of programs. Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED. Do not change it in any way. It works exceedingly well as it is now. Remember to e-mail a copy of this exciting report to everyone you can think of. One of the people you send this to may send out 50,000...and your name will be on everyone of them! REMEMBER though, ----- the MORE YOU SEND OUT, the more potential customers you will reach. So my friend, I have given you the ideas, information, materials and opportunity to become financially independent. IT IS UP TO YOU!! NOW DO IT!! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ BEFORE YOU delete this program from your in box, as I almost did, take a little time to read it and REALLY THINK ABOUT IT. Get a pencil and figure out what could happen when YOU participate. Figure out the worst possible response and no matter how you calculate it, you will still make a lot of money! You will definitely get back what you invested. Any doubts you have will vanish when your first orders come in. $$$ IT WORKS!!! $$$ Jody Jacobs Richmond, VA ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PROGRAM WILL MAKE YOU THOUSANDS OF DOLLAR$$$$!!!! This method of raising capital REALLY WORKS 100% EVERY TIME. I am sure that you could use up to $50,000 or more in the next 90 days. before you say "BULL... ", please read this program carefully. This is not a chain letter, but a perfectly legal money making business. As with all multi-level businesses, we build our business by recruiting new partners and selling our products. Every state in the USA allows you to recruit new multi-level business partners, and we sell and deliver a product for EVERY dollar received. YOUR ORDERS COME BY MAIL AND ARE FILLED BY E-MAIL, so you are not involved in personal selling. You do it privately in your own home, store or office. This is the EASIEST marketing plan anywhere! It is simply order filling by email! ************************************************************ ******* The product is informational and instructional material, keys to the secrets for everyone on how to open the doors to the magic world of E-COMMERCE , the information highway, the wave of the future ! PLAN SUMMARY: (1) You order the 4 reports listed below ($5 each) They come to you by email. (2) Save a copy of this entire letter and put your name after Report #1 and move the other names down. (3) Via the internet, access Yahoo.com or any of the other major search engines to locate hundreds of bulk email service companies (search for "bulk email") and have them send 25,000 - 50,000 emails for you about $49+) (4) Orders will come to you by postal mail - simply email them the Report they ordered. Let me ask you - isn't this about as easy as it gets? ************************************************************ By the way there are over 50 MILLION email addresses with millions more joining the internet each year so don't worry about "running out" or "saturation". People are used to seeing and hearing the same advertisements every day on radio/TV. How many times have you received the same pizza flyers on your door? Then one day you are hungry for pizza and you order one. Same thing with this letter. I received this letter many times - then one day I decided it was time to try it. ************************************************************ YOU CAN START TODAY - JUST DO THESE EASY STEPS: STEP #1. ORDER THE FOUR REPORTS Order the four reports shown on the list below (you can't sell them if you don't order them). -- For each report, send $5.00 CASH, the NAME & NUMBER OF THE REPORT YOU ARE ORDERING, YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS, and YOUR NAME & RETURN ADDRESS (in case of a problem) to the person whose name appears on the list next to the report. MAKE SURE YOUR RETURN ADDRESS IS ON YOUR ENVELOPE IN CASE OF ANY MAIL PROBLEMS! Within a few days you will receive, by e-mail, each of the four reports. Save them on your computer so you can send them to the 1,000's of people who will order them from you. STEP #2. ADD YOUR MAILING ADDRESS TO THIS LETTER a. Look below for the listing of the four reports. b. After you've ordered the four reports, delete the name and address under REPORT #4. This person has made it through the cycle. c. Move the name and address under REPORT #3 down to REPORT #4. d. Move the name and address under REPORT #2 down to REPORT #3. e. Move the name and address under REPORT #1 down to REPORT #2. f. Insert your name/address in the REPORT #1 position. Please make sure you COPY ALL INFORMATION, every name and address, ACCURATELY! STEP #3. Take this entire letter, including the modified list of names, and save it to your computer. Make NO changes to these instructions. Now you are ready to use this entire email to send by email to prospects. Report #1 will tell you how to download bulk email software and email addresses so you can send it out to thousands of people while you sleep! Remember that 50,000+ new people are joining the internet every month. Your cost to participate in this is practically nothing (surely you can afford $20 and initial bulk mailing cost). You obviously already have a computer and an Internet connection and e-mail is FREE! There are two primary methods of building your downline: METHOD #1: SENDING BULK E-MAIL Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and we'll assume you and all those involved email out only 2,000 programs each. Let's also assume that the mailing receives a 0.5% response. The response could be much better. Also, many people will email outhundreds of thousands of programs instead of 2,000 (Why stop at 2000?). But continuing with this example, you send out only 2,000 programs. With a 0.5% response, that is only 10 orders for REPORT #1. Those 10 people respond by sending out 2,000 programs each for a total of 20,000. Out of those 0.5%, 100 people respond and order REPORT #2. Those 100 mail out 2,000 programs each for a total of 200,000. The 0.5% response to that is 1,000 orders for REPORT #3. Those 1,000 send out 2,000 programs each for a 2,000,000 total. The 0.5% response to that is 10,000 orders for REPORT #4. That's 10,000 $5 bills for you. CASH!!! Your total income in this example is $50 + $500 + $5,000 + $50,000 for a total of $55,550!!! REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING 1,990 OUT OF THE 2,000 PEOPLE YOU MAIL TO WILL DO ABSOLUTELY NOTHING AND TRASH THIS PROGRAM! DARE TO THINK FOR A MOMENT WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF EVERYONE, OR HALF SENT OUT 100,000 PROGRAMS INSTEAD OF 2,000. Believe me, many people will do just that, and more! METHOD #2 - PLACING FREE ADS ON THE INTERNET Advertising on the internet is very, very inexpensive, and there are HUNDREDS of FREE places to advertise. Let's say you decide to start small just to see how well it works. Assume your goal is to get ONLY 10 people to participate on your first level. (Placing a lot of FREE ads on the Internet will EASILY get a larger response.) Also assume that everyone else in YOUR ORGANIZATION gets ONLY 10 downline members. Look how this small number accumulates to achieve the STAGGERING results below: 1st level--your first 10 send you $5 .....................$50 2nd level--10 members from those 10 ($5 x 100)...........$500 3rd level--10 members from those 100 ($5 x 1,000)......$5,000 4th level--10 members from those 1,000 ($5 x 10,000)..$50,000 $$$$$$ THIS TOTALS -----------------------------------$55,550 $$$$$$ AMAZING ISN'T IT? Remember friends, this assumes that the people who participate only recruit 10 people each. Think for a moment what would happen if they got 20 people to participate! Most people get 100's of participants and many will continue to work this program, sending out programs WITH YOUR NAME ON THEM for years! THINK ABOUT IT! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ People are going to get emails about this plan from you or somebody else and many will work this plan - the question is - Don't you want your name to be on the emails they will send out? * * * DON'T MISS OUT!!! * * * JUST TRY IT ONCE!!! * * * * * SEE WHAT HAPPENS!!! *** YOU'LL BE AMAZED!!!* * ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ALL ORDERS! This will guarantee that the e-mail THEY send out with YOUR name and address on it will be prompt because they can't advertise until they receive the report! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ GET STARTED TODAY: PLACE YOUR ORDER FOR THE FOUR REPORTS NOW. Notes: -- ALWAYS SEND $5 CASH (U.S. CURRENCY) FOR EACH REPORT. CHECKS NOT ACCEPTED. Make sure the cash is concealed by wrapping it in two sheets of paper. On one of those sheets of paper write: (a) the number & name of the report you are ordering (b) your e-mail address, and (c) your name & postal address. REPORT #1 "The Insider's Guide to Advertising for Free on the Internet" ORDER REPORT #1 FROM: HARVEY DOOLEY 11 SUES ACRE CHEROKEE, NC 28719` NOTE: I and every member below are dedicated to help you with this program so it will work for you also. TRY US! REPORT #2 "The Insider's Guide to Sending Bulk E-mail on the Internet" ORDER REPORT #2 FROM: FRED ABATECOLA 258 PINE ST SEEKONK, MA 02771 REPORT #3 "The Secrets to Multilevel Marketing on the Internet" ORDER REPORT #3 FROM: BRENDA LANDRUM 4606 FARMSTEAD CT WHICHITA, KS 67220 REPORT #4 "How to become a Millionaire utilizing the Power of Multilevel Marketing and the Internet" ORDER REPORT #4 FROM: DOROTHY SHUTER 2701 MAIN ST KEOKUK, IA 52632 ******* TIPS FOR SUCCESS ******* TREAT THIS AS YOUR BUSINESS! Be prompt, professional, and follow the directions accurately. -- Send for the four reports IMMEDIATELY so you will have them when the orders start coming in because: When you receive a $5 order, you MUST send out the requested product/report. It is required for this to be a legal business and they need the reports to send out their letters (with your name on them!) -- ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON THE ORDERS YOU RECEIVE. -- Be patient and persistent with this program - If you follow the instructions exactly - results WILL FOLLOW. $$$$ ******* YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINES ******* Follow these guidelines to guarantee your success: If you don't receive 20 orders for REPORT #1 within two weeks, continue advertising orsending e-mails until you do. Then, a couple of weeks later you should receive at least 100 orders for REPORT#2. If you don't, continue advertising or sending e-mails until you do. Once you have received 100 or more orders for REPORT #2, YOU CAN RELAX, because the system is already working for you, and the cash will continue to roll in! THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER: Every time your name is moved down on the list, you are placed in front of a DIFFERENT report. You can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS by watching which report people are ordering from you. To generate more income, simply send another batch of e- mails or continue placing ads and start the whole process again! There is no limit to the income you will generate >from this business! Before you make your decision as to whether or not you participate in this program. Please answer one question. ARE YOU HAPPY WITH YOUR PRESENT INCOME OR JOB? If the answer is no, then please look at the following facts about this super simple MLM program: 1. NO face to face selling, NO meetings, NO inventory! NO Telephone calls, NO big cost to start!, NOthing to learn, NO skills needed! (Surely you know how to send email?) 2. No equipment to buy - you already have a computer and internet connection - so you have everything you need to fill orders! 3. You are selling a product which does NOT COST ANYTHING TO PRODUCE OR SHIP! (Emailing copies of the reports is FREE!) 4. All of your customers pay you in CA$H! This program will change your LIFE FOREVER!! Look at the potential for you to be able to quit your job and live a life of luxury you could only dream about! Imagine getting out of debt and buying the car and home of your dreams and being able to work a super- high paying leisurely easy business from home! $$$ FINALLY MAKE SOME DREAMS COME TRUE! $$$ ACT NOW! Take your first step toward achieving financial independence. Order the reports and follow the program outlined above-- SUCCESS will be your reward. Thank you for your time and consideration. PLEASE NOTE: If you need help with starting a business, registering a business name, learning how income tax is handled, etc., contact your local office of the Small Business Administration (a Federal Agency) 1-800-827-5722 for free help and answers to questions. Also, the Internal Revenue Service offers free help via telephone and free seminars about business tax reuirements. Your earnings are highly dependent on your activities and advertising. The information contained on this site and in the report constitutes no guarantees stated nor implied. In the event that it is determined that this site or report constitutes a guarantee of any kind, that guarantee is now void. The earnings amounts listed on this site and in the report are estimates only. If you have any questions of the legality of this program, contact the Office of Associate Director for Marketing Practices, Federal Trade Commission, Bureau of Consumer Protection in Washington, DC. ================================================ Under Bill s.1618 TITLE III passed by the 105th US Congress this letter cannot be considered spam as long as the sender includes contact information and a method of removal. This is a one time e-mail transmission. No request for removal is necessary. From rem-conf Wed Jan 03 18:59:07 2001 From rem-conf-request@es.net Wed Jan 03 18:59:06 2001 Received: from list by mail1.es.net with local (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14E0YQ-0002dw-00; Wed, 3 Jan 2001 18:55:02 -0800 Received: from cnxtsmtp2.conexant.com [198.62.9.253] by mail1.es.net with esmtp (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14E0YP-0002dk-00; Wed, 3 Jan 2001 18:55:01 -0800 Received: from npbsmtp1.conexant.com (npbsmtp1.nb.conexant.com [157.152.161.153]) by cnxtsmtp2.conexant.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA12064; Wed, 3 Jan 2001 18:53:42 -0800 (PST) From: NBLNAPPS5@conexant.com X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 18:52:00 -0800 Subject: Report to Recipient(s) To: "young@techway.co.kr" <4on2andIP-sys@advent.ee.columbia.edu> Cc: Message-ID: X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on NPBSMTP1/Server/Conexant(Release 5.0.5 |September 22, 2000) at 01/03/2001 06:54:41 PM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailing-List: X-Loop: rem-conf@es.net Precedence: list Incident Information:- Originator: =B7=B7=B7 Recipients: "young@techway.co.kr" <4on2andIP-sys@advent.ee.columbia.edu>, Subject: AHG meeting reminder WARNING: The file Navidad.exe you received was infected with the W32/Navidad@M virus. The file attachment was not successfully cleaned.= = From rem-conf Wed Jan 03 19:18:20 2001 From rem-conf-request@es.net Wed Jan 03 19:18:20 2001 Received: from list by mail1.es.net with local (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14E0tW-0003cr-00; Wed, 3 Jan 2001 19:16:50 -0800 Received: from cnxtsmtp2.conexant.com [198.62.9.253] by mail1.es.net with esmtp (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14E0tV-0003ch-00; Wed, 3 Jan 2001 19:16:49 -0800 Received: from npbsmtp1.conexant.com (npbsmtp1.nb.conexant.com [157.152.161.153]) by cnxtsmtp2.conexant.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA12971; Wed, 3 Jan 2001 19:15:35 -0800 (PST) From: NBLNApps3@conexant.com X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 19:16:41 -0800 Subject: Report to Recipient(s) To: "young@techway.co.kr" <4on2andIP-sys@advent.ee.columbia.edu> Cc: Message-ID: X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on NPBSMTP1/Server/Conexant(Release 5.0.5 |September 22, 2000) at 01/03/2001 07:16:33 PM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailing-List: X-Loop: rem-conf@es.net Precedence: list Incident Information:- Originator: =B7=B7=B7 Recipients: "young@techway.co.kr" <4on2andIP-sys@advent.ee.columbia.edu>, Subject: AHG meeting reminder WARNING: The file Navidad.exe you received was infected with the W32/Navidad@M virus. The file attachment was not successfully cleaned.= = From rem-conf Wed Jan 03 21:15:26 2001 From rem-conf-request@es.net Wed Jan 03 21:15:25 2001 Received: from list by mail1.es.net with local (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14E2hv-0005Dp-00; Wed, 3 Jan 2001 21:12:59 -0800 Received: from (ms.samsung.com) [211.45.29.136] by mail1.es.net with esmtp (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14E2ht-0005Bs-00; Wed, 3 Jan 2001 21:12:57 -0800 Received: from bright ([203.241.48.20]) by ms.samsung.com (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with SMTP id G6MH1B00.OQR for ; Thu, 4 Jan 2001 14:10:23 +0900 From: =?ks_c_5601-1987?B?sejDtsHW?= To: Subject: mailing list Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 14:15:08 +0900 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0008_01C07658.BE4A16A0" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 X-Mailing-List: X-Loop: rem-conf@es.net Precedence: list This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C07658.BE4A16A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ks_c_5601-1987" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGVsbG8sIEkgd2FudCB0byBqb2luIHRoZSBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QuDQoNClRoYW5rcy4NCg== ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C07658.BE4A16A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ks_c_5601-1987" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 PCFET0NUWVBFIEhUTUwgUFVCTElDICItLy9XM0MvL0RURCBIVE1MIDQuMCBUcmFuc2l0aW9uYWwv L0VOIj4NCjxIVE1MPjxIRUFEPg0KPE1FVEEgaHR0cC1lcXVpdj1Db250ZW50LVR5cGUgY29udGVu dD0idGV4dC9odG1sOyBjaGFyc2V0PWtzX2NfNTYwMS0xOTg3Ij4NCjxNRVRBIGNvbnRlbnQ9Ik1T SFRNTCA1LjUwLjQxMzQuMTAwIiBuYW1lPUdFTkVSQVRPUj48L0hFQUQ+DQo8Qk9EWT4NCjxESVY+ PFNQQU4gY2xhc3M9NjAwMzIxMjA1LTA0MDEyMDAxPjxGT05UIHNpemU9Mj5IZWxsbywgSSB3YW50 IHRvIGpvaW4gdGhlIA0KbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0LjwvRk9OVD48L1NQQU4+PC9ESVY+DQo8RElWPjxT UEFOIGNsYXNzPTYwMDMyMTIwNS0wNDAxMjAwMT48Rk9OVCBzaXplPTI+PC9GT05UPjwvU1BBTj4m bmJzcDs8L0RJVj4NCjxESVY+PFNQQU4gY2xhc3M9NjAwMzIxMjA1LTA0MDEyMDAxPjxGT05UIA0K c2l6ZT0yPlRoYW5rcy48L0ZPTlQ+PC9TUEFOPjwvRElWPjwvQk9EWT48L0hUTUw+DQo= ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C07658.BE4A16A0-- From rem-conf Thu Jan 04 06:38:58 2001 From rem-conf-request@es.net Thu Jan 04 06:38:57 2001 Received: from list by mail1.es.net with local (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14EBJS-0001W7-00; Thu, 4 Jan 2001 06:24:18 -0800 Received: from bodysonic.co.jp (server.bodysonic.co.jp) [211.5.98.83] by mail1.es.net with esmtp (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14EBJQ-0001Vx-00; Thu, 4 Jan 2001 06:24:17 -0800 Received: from desktop (1Cust191.tnt4.mia5.da.uu.net [63.30.203.191]) by server.bodysonic.co.jp (8.9.1/8.9.3/TIS) with SMTP id XAA30011; Thu, 4 Jan 2001 23:41:24 +0900 Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 23:41:24 +0900 From: cbel007@belgium.de Message-Id: <200101041441.XAA30011@server.bodysonic.co.jp> To: cbel007@belgium.de Subject: 100% LEGAL WAY TO GET EVERY CABLE CHANNEL!!! 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From rem-conf Sat Jan 06 02:27:00 2001 From rem-conf-request@es.net Sat Jan 06 02:26:58 2001 Received: from list by mail1.es.net with local (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14EqJg-0000Tf-00; Sat, 6 Jan 2001 02:11:16 -0800 Received: from (gecko.howff.co.uk) [195.206.197.14] (root) by mail1.es.net with esmtp (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14EqJe-0000TV-00; Sat, 6 Jan 2001 02:11:15 -0800 Received: from 195.206.197.14 ([192.187.234.99]) by gecko.howff.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA14200; Sat, 6 Jan 2001 18:21:03 GMT From: vickiwin@hokudai.ac.jp To: bethlynn@earthlink.net Message-ID: <7351902846.srt62419@rly-v83562.hokudai.ac.jp> Date: Sat, 06 Jan 01 00:21:50 EST Subject: Complete E-Commerce Solutions ! ~~~~ Reply-To: vickiwin@hokudai.ac.jp X-Mailing-List: X-Loop: rem-conf@es.net Precedence: list Increase Sales w/4 Powerful Words !!! 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We apologize for any inconvenience. ************************************************* From rem-conf Sat Jan 06 10:42:03 2001 From rem-conf-request@es.net Sat Jan 06 10:42:03 2001 Received: from list by mail1.es.net with local (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14EyEH-0004a4-00; Sat, 6 Jan 2001 10:38:13 -0800 Received: from ip119.phoenix23.az.pub-ip.psi.net (rskrweb.ringsaker.folkebibl.no) [38.29.211.119] by mail1.es.net with smtp (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14EyEC-0004Zu-00; Sat, 6 Jan 2001 10:38:10 -0800 To: FREE-Satellite@FREEMAIL.CO.CO.COM Date: Sat, 06 Jan 2001 11:24:38 -0700 Message-Id: Subject: FWD:Your FREE Satellite TV System with Installation Reply-To: insightbook4@excite.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT From: Satellite338@excite.com X-Mailing-List: X-Loop: rem-conf@es.net Precedence: list For a limited time, we'll give you this top-of-the-line Digital Satellite System absolutely FREE! We'll even include Free Installation! 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Call Now! 1-877-897-2871 From rem-conf Sat Jan 06 20:41:38 2001 From rem-conf-request@es.net Sat Jan 06 20:41:38 2001 Received: from list by mail1.es.net with local (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14F7Yy-0001Kt-00; Sat, 6 Jan 2001 20:36:12 -0800 Received: from (filao.com) [202.123.30.99] by mail1.es.net with smtp (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14F7Yr-0001KQ-00; Sat, 6 Jan 2001 20:36:06 -0800 Received: from pob23uifesi.cc.org.ar ([61.48.316.4]) by ris5s2.daidacenott14sere1.chuea.cesaimtv.net.ie (8.9.1a/8.9.1/1.0) with SMTP id NAE11975 ([217.45.256.4]) ([63.22.81.69]) by filao.com ( IA Mail Server Version: 3.1.3. Build: 1065 ) ) ; 07 Jan 2001 04:16:19 UT Message-ID: <000033cf0add$00005359$00006d46@hbnouifecj.cc.com.ar([64.44.310.4]) by irs5s2.daidacentotere.chua.caimetv.net.ie (8.9.1a/8.9.1/1.0) with SMTP id NAA11975 ([213.005.316.4])> To: From: a.jarvis@math.canterbury.ac.nz Subject: Let the lenders compete for your business! 27974 Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2001 17:56:08 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Reply-To: a.jarvis@math.canterbury.ac.nz X-Mailing-List: X-Loop: rem-conf@es.net Precedence: list The Lender

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From rem-conf Mon Jan 08 08:41:00 2001 From rem-conf-request@es.net Mon Jan 08 08:41:00 2001 Received: from list by mail1.es.net with local (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14Ff2g-0004lR-00; Mon, 8 Jan 2001 08:21:06 -0800 Received: from odin.ietf.org (ietf.org) [132.151.1.176] by mail1.es.net with esmtp (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14Ff2e-0004lH-00; Mon, 8 Jan 2001 08:21:05 -0800 Received: from CNRI.Reston.VA.US (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA09275; Mon, 8 Jan 2001 11:21:00 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200101081621.LAA09275@ietf.org> To: IETF-Announce: ; Cc: rem-conf@es.net From: The IESG SUBJECT: Last Call: A More Loss-Tolerant RTP Payload Format for MP3 Audio to Proposed Standard Reply-to: iesg@ietf.org Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2001 11:21:00 -0500 Sender: scoya@cnri.reston.va.us X-Mailing-List: X-Loop: rem-conf@es.net Precedence: list The IESG has received a request from the Audio/Video Transport Working Group to consider A More Loss-Tolerant RTP Payload Format for MP3 Audio as a Proposed Standard. The IESG plans to make a decision in the next few weeks, and solicits final comments on this action. Please send any comments to the iesg@ietf.org or ietf@ietf.org mailing lists by January 22, 2001. Files can be obtained via http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-avt-rtp-mp3-05.txt From rem-conf Mon Jan 08 15:09:27 2001 From rem-conf-request@es.net Mon Jan 08 15:09:26 2001 Received: from list by mail2.es.net with local (Exim 1.92 #1) for rem-conf-dist@es.net id 14FlJR-0003Ee-00; Mon, 8 Jan 2001 15:02:49 -0800 Received: from [208.169.19.98] (helo=L7.com) by mail2.es.net with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #1) for rem-conf@es.net id 14FlJQ-0003Av-00; Mon, 8 Jan 2001 15:02:48 -0800 Received: from maroon-bells.l7.com [216.160.140.33] by l7.com [10.44.10.8] with SMTP (MDaemon.v3.5.1.R) for ; Mon, 08 Jan 2001 15:59:06 -0700 Message-Id: <4.3.1.0.20010108132524.0125f3d0@208.169.19.98> X-Sender: sstodghill@208.169.19.98 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.1 Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2001 16:00:23 -0700 To: "Leonid Rosenboim" , From: Scott Stodghill Subject: Re: Conf In-Reply-To: <003101c0791c$d48b0660$6b3873c0@bitband.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_13334687==_.ALT" X-MDRemoteIP: 216.160.140.33 X-Return-Path: sstodghill@l7.com X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: rem-conf@es.net X-Mailing-List: X-Loop: rem-conf@es.net Precedence: list --=====================_13334687==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Hello Leonid, I can share with you the reasons for our decision (btw, it's InfoValue on Linux). I talked with David Cong about a telecon last week to go over this. I usually work from 6:00 AM to 6:00 PM Mountain Standard Time. Let me know what works for you. Scott Stodghill At 1/7/01 07:43 PM, Leonid Rosenboim wrote: >Hi Scott, > >last time we spoke when we where in enReach's office in SJ, >now it is my understanding you have decided against our products. > >If this is no bother, can you spare some time to talk to me on the phone >and explain the reasons for your selection of InfoValue on NT ? > >I thank you in advance for helping us learn from you, and perhaps >have a chanse to implement what we learned for the sake of next opportunity. > >Thanks, >Leonid Rosenboim >Founder, CTO >BitBand Technologies Ltd. >Tel: +972-3-608-1903 >Fax: +972-3-608-1919 --=====================_13334687==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Hello Leonid,

I can share with you the reasons for our decision (btw, it's InfoValue on Linux).  I talked with David Cong about a telecon last week to go over this.  I usually work from 6:00 AM to 6:00 PM Mountain Standard Time.  Let me know what works for you.

Scott Stodghill

At 1/7/01 07:43 PM, Leonid Rosenboim wrote:
Hi Scott,
 
last time we spoke when we where in enReach's office in SJ,
now it is my understanding you have decided against our products.
 
If this is no bother, can you spare some time to talk to me on the phone
and explain the reasons for your selection of InfoValue on NT ?
 
I thank you in advance for helping us learn from you, and perhaps
have a chanse to implement what we learned for the sake of next opportunity.
 
Thanks,
Leonid Rosenboim
Founder, CTO
BitBand Technologies Ltd.
Tel: +972-3-608-1903
Fax: +972-3-608-1919
--=====================_13334687==_.ALT-- From rem-conf Mon Jan 08 21:46:16 2001 From rem-conf-request@es.net Mon Jan 08 21:46:15 2001 Received: from list by mail1.es.net with local (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14FrVz-0004gZ-00; Mon, 8 Jan 2001 21:40:11 -0800 Received: from mail.cox.smu.edu (amex.Cox.SMU.Edu) [129.119.81.9] (root) by mail1.es.net with esmtp (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14FrVx-0004gP-00; Mon, 8 Jan 2001 21:40:09 -0800 Received: from gavishr.mail.cox.smu.edu (cm39517-a.pkcty1.tx.home.com [65.10.7.20]) by amex.Cox.SMU.Edu (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f094x8f14343; Mon, 8 Jan 2001 22:59:08 -0600 Message-Id: <4.3.0.20010108221355.00e53300@mail.cox.smu.edu> X-Sender: gavishb@mail.cox.smu.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3 Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2001 22:56:02 -0600 To: (Recipient list suppressed) From: Bezalel Gavish Subject: CFPs 4th ICECR Conference Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=====================_42892630==_" X-Mailing-List: X-Loop: rem-conf@es.net Precedence: list --=====================_42892630==_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Enclosed is the call for papers for the 4th International Conference on Electronic Commerce Research. I hope to see you at the conference. Sincerely yours, Bezalel Gavish --=====================_42892630==_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="ICECR4 - CFPS2.txt" Call for Papers The Fourth International Conference on Electronic Commerce Research (ICECR-4) Dallas, Texas, USA November 8 - 11, 2001 http: Sponsored by American Telecommunication Systems Management Association Cox School of Business, Southern Methodist University INFORMS College on Information Systems INFORMS College on Telecommunications IFIP WG 7.3 North Dallas Chamber of Commerce School of Management, The University of Texas at Dallas Important Dates: Paper (or Extended Abstract) Submission Deadline: June 1, 2001 Panel Proposal Submission Deadline: July 15, 2001 Final Paper Submission Deadline: October 1, 2001 Conference Dates: November 8 - 11, 2001 Over the past few years, electronic commerce (EC) has emerged as a dramatic new mode of business. Today, almost every company is either using or considering the use of EC. Advances in telecommunications and automated processes are already forcing dramatic changes in a variety of industries, ranging from banking and finance to music and entertainment. Yet, the EC space is still in a relatively early state of evolution, and many of the significant advances in understanding and implementing EC are occurring concurrently in academia and industry. The traditional sequential process of technology innovation followed by technology transfer no longer applies. Thus, dialogue on this field between academia and industry is important. As EC spans a wide range of reference disciplines, forums focusing on EC research are necessary to stimulate the necessary interactions and knowledge sharing across this broad community. ICECR-4 is intended to address these needs. Following on the heels of the successful third conference in 2000, the goal of the conference is to bring together both academic and industrial researchers in the field of EC on an ongoing, annual basis, to discuss new technological=20 developments and their implications for EC, as well as technological issues that need to be addressed to further the effectiveness and efficiency of EC. The conference combines research tracks in which technical papers will be presented, with industrial tracks consisting of panels, plenary speakers and exhibits. Topics of interest for the conference include (but are not limited to) the following: * Impact of EC on supply chain, distribution chain management, EDI and IOS * Secure transaction processing methods for electronic commerce * Design and analysis of multimedia applications on the Internet * Business models of EC * M-commerce research issues and applications * The impact of mobility on EC mechanisms * Internet traffic management and analysis * Pricing Internet services * EC market mechanisms and business models * EC intermediary roles and their analysis * Electronic payment mechanisms * Economic analysis of intranets and extranets * Design and analysis of intranets * Data management issues in EC * Managing response time and content in Web-based information services * Effective management of electronic commerce transaction servers * EC developments and challenges in specific industries (e.g., financial services, music, manufacturing, tourism, publishing) * Globalization issues in EC (standards, regulation, property rights, etc.) * Security and Privacy on the Internet The Program Committee is open to any ideas you might have regarding= additional=20 topics or format of the conference. The intention is, whenever possible, to= =20 limit the number of parallel sessions to three. The conference is scheduled= =20 over a weekend so as to reduce teaching conflicts for academic participants,= and=20 to enable participants to take advantage of weekend hotel and airfare rates= and=20 of the many events that take place in the Downtown area. Program Chair: Bezalel Gavish, Southern Methodist University, USA,= gavishb@mail.cox.smu.edu Members of the Program Committee include: Dr. J=F6rn Altmann, Hewlett-Packard Laboratories, USA,= jorn_altmann@hpl.hp.com Professor Philipp Af=E8che, Northwestern University, USA,= p-afeche@kellogg.nwu.edu Professor Kemal Altinkemer, Purdue University, USA, kemal@mgmt.purdue.edu Professor Gilbert Babin, =C9cole des Hautes =C9tudes Commerciales, Canada, Gilbert.Babin@hec.ca Professor Anitesh Barua, University of Texas at Austin, USA, barua@mail.utexas.edu Professor Amit Basu, Southern Methodist University, USA,= abasu@mail.cox.smu.edu Professor Hella Kaffel Ben Ayed, Universit=E9 de la Manouba, Tunisia, hella.kaffel@fst.run.tn Professor Martin Bichler, Vienna University of Economics and Business Administration, Austria, martin.bichler@wu-wien.ac.at Dr. Jerome Chifflet, Waidan, Inc., France, jchifflet@wanadoo.fr Professor Anindya Datta, Georgia Institute of Technology, USA, adatta@cc.gatech.edu Professor Amitava Dutta, George Mason University, USA, adutta@gmu.edu Professor Soumitra Dutta, INSEAD, France, Soumitra.DUTTA@INSEAD.FR Dr. Ioannis Fikouras, Bremen Institute of Industrial Technology and Applied Work Science (BIBA), Germany, fks@biba.uni-bremen.de Professor Erol Gelenbe, University of Central Florida, USA, erol@cs.ucf.edu Dr. Steven Goldberg, INET International Inc., Canada, sgoldberg@sprint.ca Dr. Gaby Herrmann, University of Essen, Germany,= herrmann@wi-inf.uni-essen.de Dr. Peter Herrmann, University of Dortmund, Germany, peter.herrmann@cs.uni-dortmund.de Professor Alan R. Hevner, University of South Florida, USA,= ahevner@coba.usf.edu Dr. Clive Holtham, City University Business School, UK,= C.W.Holtham@city.ac.uk Prof. Joakim Kalvenes, Southern Methodist University, USA,= kalvenes@tecom.cox.smu.edu Dr. Krishna Kant, Intel, USA, krishna.kant@intel.com Dr. Alan Katz, WR Hambrecht + Co., USA, akatz@wrhambrecht.com Dr. Kalevi Kilkki, Nokia Research Center, Finland, kalevi.kilkki@nokia.com Professor Norihisa Komoda, Osaka University, Japan,= komoda@ise.eng.osaka-u.ac.jp Professor Prabhudev Konana, University of Texas at Austin, USA, pkonana@mail.utexas.edu Professor Ramayya Krishnan, Carnegie Mellon University, USA,= rk2x@andrew.cmu.edu Professor Ting-Peng Liang, National Sun Yat-sen University, Taiwan,= liang@misserv.mis.nsysu.edu.tw Professor Richard O. Mason, Southern Methodist University, USA,= rmason@mail.cox.smu.edu Dr. Prabir Neogi, Industry Canada, Canada, neogi.prabir@ic.gc.ca Dr. Aviel Rubin, AT&T Labs - Research, USA, rubin@research.att.com Professor Sridhar Seshadri, New York University, USA, sseshadr@stern.nyu.edu Dr. Mikko Siponen, University of Oulu, Finland, mikko.t.siponen@oulu.fi Professor Yao-Hua Tan, Erasmus University Rotterdam, The Netherlands,= ytan@fac.fbk.eur.nl Dr. Iwao Toda, Fujitsu Laboratories Ltd., Japan, toda@flab.fujitsu.co.jp Professor Alexander Tuzhilin, New York University, USA,= atuzhili@stern.nyu.edu Dr. John Ure, University of Hong Kong, Hong Kong, jcure@hkucc.hku.hk Dr. Roger A. Wallis, Royal Institute of Technology, Sweden,= r.a.wallis@skap.se Professor Andrew B. Whinston, University of Texas at Austin, USA, abw@uts.cc.utexas.edu Authors should submit an extended abstract of at least 2,000 words, or a complete paper, to a program committee member, by June 1, 2001. Three hard-copies should be submitted. Electronic submissions are welcome, but must be augmented with at least one hard-copy. Authors of accepted papers will be asked to submit their complete, final manuscripts to Ms. Lundeng, by October 1, 2001. Accepted papers that are presented at the conference will be included in the Conference Proceedings. Formatting instructions for accepted papers will be sent with the acceptance notice.= All submitted papers will be considered for publication in the ACM/Kluwer Electronic Commerce Research journal (http://www.baltzer.nl/ecr/ecr.asp). Panels: Proposals for panels are also invited. Both academic and industry panels are encouraged. Each proposal should include a list of panelists with their affiliations. A brief statement explaining the motivation for the design and composition of the panel should also be included. The deadline for proposal submission to the conference chair is July 15, 2001. Early submission of proposals will be appreciated. General Conference Chair: Bezalel Gavish, Cox School of Business, Southern Methodist University, P.O. Box 750333, Dallas, TX 75275-0333, USA, gavishb@mail.cox.smu.edu. Conference Manager: Dru Lundeng, Cox School of Business, Southern Methodist University, P.O. Box 750333, Dallas, TX 75275-0333, USA, dlundeng@mail.cox.smu.edu. --=====================_42892630==_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Professor Bezalel Gavish Eugene J. and Ruth F. Constantin Distinguished Chair in Business Chairman of the Information Technology and Operations Management Department Edwin L. Cox School of Business Southern Methodist University P.O. Box 750333 Dallas, TX 75275-0333 E-mail: gavishb@mail.cox.smu.edu Tel: Office (214) 768-8258 FAX (214) 768-8812 Assistant (214) 768-8256 Home (214) 528-3584 or (615) 370-0813 --=====================_42892630==_-- From rem-conf Wed Jan 10 09:47:07 2001 From rem-conf-request@es.net Wed Jan 10 09:47:07 2001 Received: from list by mail1.es.net with local (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14GP2L-0006kP-00; Wed, 10 Jan 2001 09:27:49 -0800 Received: from (ns.contour.de) [193.159.185.40] (root) by mail1.es.net with esmtp (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14GP2J-0006kF-00; Wed, 10 Jan 2001 09:27:47 -0800 Received: from desktop (2Cust9.tnt1.mia5.da.uu.net [63.30.195.9]) by ns.contour.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA15874; Wed, 10 Jan 2001 17:44:02 +0100 Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 17:44:02 +0100 From: moreinfo9998@aol.com Message-Id: <200101101644.RAA15874@ns.contour.de> To: moreinfo9998@aol.com Subject: Re: I saw your web site X-Mailing-List: X-Loop: rem-conf@es.net Precedence: list Dear Web Merchant, My company has taken notice of your on-line presence and wanted to bring a few things to your attention. 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My company has helped hundreds of companies with the same problems and they still can’t believe the difference! We specialize in Internet solutions and strategies. That’s all. Your company has an objective when it comes to the Internet and we have a solution. Here are a few things one can expect from our company. - Professional Web site appearance and layout. - Excellent technical support. - Super fast Internet connection and download speeds. - Some of the most competitive pricing in the nation! - Super fast Web site updates. - Advanced level services including JAVA, CGI, ActiveX, Cold Fusion, and more! If any of these areas interest you and you would like to find out more about our company, we would like to welcome you to call 1 888-585-8658 or Print the Form and Fax back to 1-800-243-0358. 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From rem-conf Wed Jan 10 13:20:18 2001 From rem-conf-request@es.net Wed Jan 10 13:20:17 2001 Received: from list by mail1.es.net with local (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14GSaI-0001ik-00; Wed, 10 Jan 2001 13:15:06 -0800 Received: from mail-blue.research.att.com [135.207.30.102] by mail1.es.net with esmtp (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14GSaH-0001iI-00; Wed, 10 Jan 2001 13:15:05 -0800 Received: from bigmail.research.att.com (bigmail.research.att.com [135.207.30.101]) by mail-blue.research.att.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C7364CE52; Wed, 10 Jan 2001 16:15:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from research.att.com (dhcp-new109.research.att.com [135.207.19.109]) by bigmail.research.att.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA20309; Wed, 10 Jan 2001 16:14:55 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3A5CD111.72E24BED@research.att.com> Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 16:16:01 -0500 From: Schuyler Quackenbush X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: 4on2andIP-sys@advent.ee.columbia.edu, young@techway.co.kr, rem-conf@es.net Subject: Re: draft: mail to IETF mailing list - see you at 3p References: <3A5CBBA7.BA637A9C@research.att.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailing-List: X-Loop: rem-conf@es.net Precedence: list Dear Young and others, I have not kept up with all the traffic on this reflector, but do see a number of MPEG contributions on 4onIP. I think that the Philips proposal m6746 meets nearly all the requirements raised at the La Baule meeting, in that, for audio, it can support a broad range of audio rates with reasonable packetization efficiency. I do not want to distract us from the goal of a generic 4onIP mechanism, but please let me call your attention to a coder-specific IETF draft (for AAC) from AT&T that illustrates issues that we have tried to address, and which may provide ideas for the generic solution. As some you might remember we have proposed a payload format for MPEG-2 AAC at the Oslo IEFT meeting last year. Its key features are: - Low overhead at the typical AAC coding rates - Support for interleaving and grouping of AAC frames - Support for fragmentation - Support for redundancy information - A priority vector that holds the significance of previous frames. This information can be used if frames got lost to decide if such a frame should be re-transmitted or reconstructed. We have updated this proposal so that it is cleaner and easier to implement, and so that it covers both MPEG-2 AAC and MPEG-4 AAC. Please see: http://verdi/publications/draft-ietf-avt-rtp-mpeg2aac-01.txt This payload format has been implemented and is currently being used 24/7 in a multimedia distribution project here within AT&T. We're planing to make a demo stream available as early as next week. The demo will let interested people listen to the original and an (artificially) errored stream to demonstrate its advantages over lossy links. Regards, Schuyler -- Schuyler Quackenbush Phone: (973) 360-8551 AT&T Labs, Rm E133 FAX: (973) 360-7111 180 Park Avenue, Bldg. 103 Email: srq@research.att.com Florham Park, NJ 07932, USA http://www.research.att.com/info/srq Chair, MPEG Audio Subgroup From rem-conf Thu Jan 11 03:10:21 2001 From rem-conf-request@es.net Thu Jan 11 03:10:20 2001 Received: from list by mail1.es.net with local (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14GfXi-00024f-00; Thu, 11 Jan 2001 03:05:18 -0800 Received: from ns2.multicasttech.com (multicasttech.com) [63.105.122.8] (root) by mail1.es.net with esmtp (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14GfXh-00024V-00; Thu, 11 Jan 2001 03:05:17 -0800 Received: from [216.8.12.140] (HELO 21rst-century.com) by multicasttech.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 3.3) with ESMTP id 646041; Thu, 11 Jan 2001 06:03:31 -0500 Message-ID: <3A5D9418.D99F5086@21rst-century.com> Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 06:08:09 -0500 From: Marshall Eubanks Reply-To: tme@21rst-century.com Organization: Multicast Technologies X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Schuyler Quackenbush CC: 4on2andIP-sys@advent.ee.columbia.edu, young@techway.co.kr, rem-conf@es.net Subject: Re: draft: mail to IETF mailing list - see you at 3p References: <3A5CBBA7.BA637A9C@research.att.com> <3A5CD111.72E24BED@research.att.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailing-List: X-Loop: rem-conf@es.net Precedence: list Schuyler Quackenbush wrote: > > Dear Young and others, > > We have updated this proposal so that it is cleaner and easier to implement, and > so that it covers both MPEG-2 AAC and MPEG-4 AAC. Please see: > http://verdi/publications/draft-ietf-avt-rtp-mpeg2aac-01.txt > This URL does not resolve, nor do I see how it could. Did you leave out the domain name ? Regards Marshall Eubanks Multicast Technologies, Inc. 10301 Democracy Lane, Suite 201 Fairfax, Virginia 22030 Phone : 703-293-9624 Fax : 703-293-9609 e-mail : tme@on-the-i.com http://www.on-the-i.com From rem-conf Thu Jan 11 03:43:42 2001 From rem-conf-request@es.net Thu Jan 11 03:43:41 2001 Received: from list by mail1.es.net with local (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14Gg6U-0003Cm-00; Thu, 11 Jan 2001 03:41:14 -0800 Received: from gw-nl4.philips.com [212.153.190.6] by mail1.es.net with esmtp (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14Gg6S-0003Cc-00; Thu, 11 Jan 2001 03:41:12 -0800 Received: from smtprelay-nl1.philips.com (localhost.philips.com [127.0.0.1]) by gw-nl4.philips.com with ESMTP id MAA12537; Thu, 11 Jan 2001 12:41:06 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from jan.vandermeer@philips.com) From: jan.vandermeer@philips.com Received: from smtprelay-eur1.philips.com(130.139.36.3) by gw-nl4.philips.com via mwrap (4.0a) id xma012527; Thu, 11 Jan 01 12:41:07 +0100 Received: from notessmtp-nl1.philips.com (notessmtp-nl1.philips.com [130.139.36.10]) by smtprelay-nl1.philips.com (8.9.3/8.8.5-1.2.2m-19990317) with ESMTP id MAA28330; Thu, 11 Jan 2001 12:41:03 +0100 (MET) Received: from EHLMS01.DIAMOND.PHILIPS.COM (ehlms01sv1.diamond.philips.com [130.139.54.212]) by notessmtp-nl1.philips.com (8.9.3/8.8.5-1.2.2m-19990317) with ESMTP id MAA20052; Thu, 11 Jan 2001 12:41:01 +0100 (MET) Received: by EHLMS01.DIAMOND.PHILIPS.COM (Soft-Switch LMS 4.0) with snapi via EMEA3 id 0056890018722479; Thu, 11 Jan 2001 12:42:42 +0100 To: , Cc: <4on2andIP-sys@advent.ee.columbia.edu>, Subject: RE: draft: mail to IETF mailing list - see you at 3p Message-ID: <0056890018722479000002L992*@MHS> Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 12:42:42 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; name="MEMO 01/11/01 12:38:59" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline X-Mailing-List: X-Loop: rem-conf@es.net Precedence: list Marshall, This one does : http://search.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-avt-rtp-mpeg2aac-01.t= xt Regards, Jan ************************ Jan van der Meer Philips - Digital Networks Building OAN-4 P.O. Box 80002 5600 JB Eindhoven The Netherlands Phone +31 402 735 774 Fax +31 402 735 545 Email jan.vandermeer@philips.com ************************ -----Original Message----- From: tme@21rst-century.com [mailto:tme@21rst-century.com] Sent: donderdag, 11 januari, 2001 12:10 To: srq@research.att.com Cc: rem-conf@es.net; young@techway.co.kr; 4on2andIP-sys@advent.ee.columbia.edu Subject: Re: draft: mail to IETF mailing list - see you at 3p Schuyler Quackenbush wrote: > > Dear Young and others, > > We have updated this proposal so that it is cleaner and easier to implement, and > so that it covers both MPEG-2 AAC and MPEG-4 AAC. Please see: > http://verdi/publications/draft-ietf-avt-rtp-mpeg2aac-01.txt > This URL does not resolve, nor do I see how it could. Did you leave out= the domain name ? Regards Marshall Eubanks Multicast Technologies, Inc. 10301 Democracy Lane, Suite 201 Fairfax, Virginia 22030 Phone : 703-293-9624 Fax : 703-293-9609 e-mail : tme@on-the-i.com http://www.on-the-i.com = From rem-conf Thu Jan 11 07:52:18 2001 From rem-conf-request@es.net Thu Jan 11 07:52:17 2001 Received: from list by mail1.es.net with local (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14Gjvb-0006On-00; Thu, 11 Jan 2001 07:46:15 -0800 Received: from gw-nl4.philips.com [212.153.190.6] by mail1.es.net with esmtp (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14GjvZ-0006Od-00; Thu, 11 Jan 2001 07:46:13 -0800 Received: from smtprelay-nl1.philips.com (localhost.philips.com [127.0.0.1]) by gw-nl4.philips.com with ESMTP id QAA25897; Thu, 11 Jan 2001 16:46:08 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from philippe.gentric@philips.com) From: philippe.gentric@philips.com Received: from smtprelay-eur1.philips.com(130.139.36.3) by gw-nl4.philips.com via mwrap (4.0a) id xma025885; Thu, 11 Jan 01 16:46:10 +0100 Received: from notessmtp-nl1.philips.com (notessmtp-nl1.philips.com [130.139.36.10]) by smtprelay-nl1.philips.com (8.9.3/8.8.5-1.2.2m-19990317) with ESMTP id QAA07927; Thu, 11 Jan 2001 16:46:05 +0100 (MET) Received: from EMLMS01.DIAMOND.PHILIPS.COM (emlms01sv1.diamond.philips.com [130.143.165.213]) by notessmtp-nl1.philips.com (8.9.3/8.8.5-1.2.2m-19990317) with ESMTP id QAA11333; Thu, 11 Jan 2001 16:46:04 +0100 (MET) Received: by EMLMS01.DIAMOND.PHILIPS.COM (Soft-Switch LMS 4.0) with snapi via EMEA1 id 0056900015095323; Thu, 11 Jan 2001 16:56:18 +0100 To: Cc: <4on2andIP-sys@advent.ee.columbia.edu>, Subject: Re: draft: mail to IETF mailing list - see you at 3p Message-ID: <0056900015095323000002L032*@MHS> Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 16:56:18 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; name="MEMO 01/11/01 16:47:01" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline X-Mailing-List: X-Loop: rem-conf@es.net Precedence: list srq@research.att.com wrote: > Dear Young and others, > > I have not kept up with all the traffic on this reflector, but do see= a number > of MPEG contributions on 4onIP. I think that the Philips proposal m67= 46 meets > nearly all the requirements raised at the La Baule meeting, in that, = for audio, > it can support a broad range of audio rates with reasonable packetiza= tion > efficiency. > > I do not want to distract us from the goal of a generic 4onIP mechani= sm, but > please let me call your attention to a coder-specific IETF draft (for= AAC) from > AT&T that illustrates issues that we have tried to address, and which= may > provide ideas for the generic solution. > > As some you might remember we have proposed a payload format for MPEG= -2 AAC > at the Oslo IEFT meeting last year. Its key features are: > > - Low overhead at the typical AAC coding rates > - Support for interleaving and grouping of AAC frames > - Support for fragmentation > - Support for redundancy information > - A priority vector that holds the significance of previous frames. > This information can be used if frames got lost to decide if such a= frame > should be re-transmitted or reconstructed. > > We have updated this proposal so that it is cleaner and easier to imp= lement, and > so that it covers both MPEG-2 AAC and MPEG-4 AAC. Please see: > http://verdi/publications/draft-ietf-avt-rtp-mpeg2aac-01.txt > ****** I think the correct URL is: http://verdi-rn.research.att.com/publications/draft-ietf-avt-rtp-mpeg2a= ac-01.txt ***** Good. How does this map to MPEG-4 SL for a receiver ? i.e. this "priority vector that holds the significance of previous fram= es", is it part of the MPEG-4 AAC audio syntax ? or is it additional information from the RTP reception stack to the AAC decoder ? My concern is that there is no room for it in SL, is there ? If we were to "loose" it because of that, what would be the impact on q= uality ? Regards, -- Philippe Gentric Software Architect PHILIPS DIGITAL NETWORKS Broadcast & Internet Delivery Solutions Laboratoires d'Electronique Philips B.P. 15 - 22, Av. Descartes 94453 Limeil-Brevannes Cedex France Phone : 33 (0)1 45 10 68 12 Fax : 33 (0)1 45 10 69 60 philippe.gentric@philips.com = From rem-conf Thu Jan 11 08:02:42 2001 From rem-conf-request@es.net Thu Jan 11 08:02:42 2001 Received: from list by mail1.es.net with local (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14Gk8J-00072f-00; Thu, 11 Jan 2001 07:59:23 -0800 Received: from gw-nl4.philips.com [212.153.190.6] by mail1.es.net with esmtp (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14Gk8H-00072U-00; Thu, 11 Jan 2001 07:59:22 -0800 Received: from smtprelay-nl1.philips.com (localhost.philips.com [127.0.0.1]) by gw-nl4.philips.com with ESMTP id QAA02268; Thu, 11 Jan 2001 16:59:19 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from philippe.gentric@philips.com) From: philippe.gentric@philips.com Received: from smtprelay-eur1.philips.com(130.139.36.3) by gw-nl4.philips.com via mwrap (4.0a) id xma002263; Thu, 11 Jan 01 16:59:19 +0100 Received: from notessmtp-nl1.philips.com (notessmtp-nl1.philips.com [130.139.36.10]) by smtprelay-nl1.philips.com (8.9.3/8.8.5-1.2.2m-19990317) with ESMTP id QAA18197; Thu, 11 Jan 2001 16:59:17 +0100 (MET) Received: from EMLMS01.DIAMOND.PHILIPS.COM (emlms01sv1.diamond.philips.com [130.143.165.213]) by notessmtp-nl1.philips.com (8.9.3/8.8.5-1.2.2m-19990317) with ESMTP id QAA16939; Thu, 11 Jan 2001 16:59:16 +0100 (MET) Received: by EMLMS01.DIAMOND.PHILIPS.COM (Soft-Switch LMS 4.0) with snapi via EMEA1 id 0056900015095980; Thu, 11 Jan 2001 17:09:30 +0100 To: , <4on2andIP-sys@advent.ee.columbia.edu> Subject: RTP profile draft Message-ID: <0056900015095980000002L002*@MHS> Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 17:09:30 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; name="MEMO 01/11/01 17:00:17" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline X-Mailing-List: X-Loop: rem-conf@es.net Precedence: list An internet draft for a RTP profile is available at: http://search.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-gentric-avt-profile-00.txt= The purpose of this (quite short) draft is to introduce 2 new bits in the RTP header which are very useful for MPEG-4 -which is my primary concern these days- but are actually of "general" scope and therefore could apply to many other media types. I would like to get feedback about it. Thanks in advance. Regards, -- Philippe Gentric Software Architect PHILIPS DIGITAL NETWORKS Broadcast & Internet Delivery Solutions Laboratoires d'Electronique Philips B.P. 15 - 22, Av. Descartes 94453 Limeil-Brevannes Cedex France Phone : 33 (0)1 45 10 68 12 Fax : 33 (0)1 45 10 69 60 philippe.gentric@philips.com = From rem-conf Thu Jan 11 14:26:24 2001 From rem-conf-request@es.net Thu Jan 11 14:26:24 2001 Received: from list by mail1.es.net with local (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14Gq2t-00044O-00; Thu, 11 Jan 2001 14:18:11 -0800 Received: from mail-blue.research.att.com [135.207.30.102] by mail1.es.net with esmtp (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14Gq2r-00044C-00; Thu, 11 Jan 2001 14:18:09 -0800 Received: from hermes.research.att.com (hermes.research.att.com [135.207.16.38]) by mail-blue.research.att.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11E8F4CE65; Thu, 11 Jan 2001 17:18:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from research.att.com (descant [135.207.17.202]) by hermes.research.att.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA04257; Thu, 11 Jan 2001 17:12:34 -0500 (EST) Sender: mathias@research.att.com Message-ID: <3A5E311B.C704CEF3@research.att.com> Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 17:18:03 -0500 From: Mathias Kretschmer Organization: AT&T Labs Research X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.18 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: philippe.gentric@philips.com Cc: srq@research.att.com, 4on2andIP-sys@advent.ee.columbia.edu, rem-conf@es.net Subject: Re: draft: mail to IETF mailing list - see you at 3p References: <0056900015095323000002L032*@MHS> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailing-List: X-Loop: rem-conf@es.net Precedence: list > I think the correct URL is: > > http://verdi-rn.research.att.com/publications/draft-ietf-avt-rtp-mpeg2aac-01.txt > > ***** > > Good. > > How does this map to MPEG-4 SL for a receiver ? > > i.e. this "priority vector that holds the significance of previous frames", > is it part of the MPEG-4 AAC audio syntax ? > or is it additional information from the RTP reception stack > to the AAC decoder ? It's additional information from the RTP stack. > My concern is that there is no room for it in SL, is there ? > > If we were to "loose" it because of that, what would be the impact on quality ? It depends on the signal and your communication channel. Let's say you lost n RTP packets and your channel's capacity is limited in a way so that you could only re-transmit m < n frames. In those cases the vector would help you to figure out the most significant m packets in order to keep the audible impact as low as possible. Cheers, Mathias From rem-conf Thu Jan 11 17:20:47 2001 From rem-conf-request@es.net Thu Jan 11 17:20:47 2001 Received: from list by mail1.es.net with local (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14GsoM-0006Ps-00; Thu, 11 Jan 2001 17:15:22 -0800 Received: from mail-out2.apple.com [17.254.0.51] by mail1.es.net with esmtp (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14GsoL-0006Pi-00; Thu, 11 Jan 2001 17:15:21 -0800 Received: from mailgate1.apple.com (A17-128-100-225.apple.com [17.128.100.225]) by mail-out2.apple.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA23099 for ; Thu, 11 Jan 2001 17:15:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from scv2.apple.com (scv2.apple.com) by mailgate1.apple.com (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.1.2) with ESMTP id ; Thu, 11 Jan 2001 17:15:20 -0800 Received: from [17.202.37.140] (il0203a-dhcp12.apple.com [17.202.37.140]) by scv2.apple.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA05726; Thu, 11 Jan 2001 17:15:19 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: kmarks@mail.apple.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <0056900015095980000002L002*@MHS> References: <0056900015095980000002L002*@MHS> Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 17:15:36 -0800 To: philippe.gentric@philips.com, rem-conf@es.net, 4on2andIP-sys@advent.ee.columbia.edu From: Kevin Marks Subject: Re: RTP profile draft Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Mailing-List: X-Loop: rem-conf@es.net Precedence: list At 5:09 PM +0100 1/11/01, philippe.gentric@philips.com wrote: >An internet draft for a RTP profile is available at: > >http://search.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-gentric-avt-profile-00.txt > >The purpose of this (quite short) draft is to >introduce 2 new bits in the RTP header >which are very useful for MPEG-4 >-which is my primary concern these days- >but are actually of "general" scope and >therefore could apply to many other media types. > >I would like to get feedback about it. The problem with defining the top 2 bits is that anything that adopts this interpretation is going to get misdirected by many existing payloads. RFC 1890 defines the dynamic payload range to begin at 96, which thus means dynamic payloads all have those 2 bits set already. However, the range between 35 and 95 is unassigned/reserved (MPEG is at 32 & 33 & the obsolete H263 packing at 34). How about defining your bits the other way up, to use that unused range when they are off, and then restricting the range of the lower 5 bits to not collide with existing packings? Otherwise, you may end up confusing existing implementations by falsely signalling to them a payload of L16, JPEG, PureVoice or whatever. This could cause other clients to crash, or draw junk or play noise, if they mistook one of your packets for a different format. If your low 5 bits are constrained to be one of the unassigned values>15 (18-24) you are far less likely to accidentally collide with another packing type. Most applications start assigning dynamic values at 96 and go up, so this will also reduce the likelihood of you being mistaken about the value. If the bits are overloaded like this, what number do you put in the m line of the sdp file to signal this payload? If you invert the meanings as I suggest, you can use anything between 114 and 120, and not confuse anyone. From rem-conf Thu Jan 11 19:45:38 2001 From rem-conf-request@es.net Thu Jan 11 19:45:37 2001 Received: from list by mail1.es.net with local (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14Gv40-0000WT-00; Thu, 11 Jan 2001 19:39:40 -0800 Received: from auemail2.lucent.com (auemail2.firewall.lucent.com) [192.11.223.163] by mail1.es.net with esmtp (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14Gv3y-0000WJ-00; Thu, 11 Jan 2001 19:39:38 -0800 Received: from auemail2.firewall.lucent.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by auemail2.firewall.lucent.com (Pro-8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA02177 for ; Thu, 11 Jan 2001 22:39:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from horh1.emsr.lucent.com (h135-17-1-40.lucent.com [135.17.1.40]) by auemail2.firewall.lucent.com (Pro-8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA02173 for ; Thu, 11 Jan 2001 22:39:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from natasha.auslabs.avaya.com by horh1.emsr.lucent.com (8.9.3+Sun/EMS-1.5 Solaris/emsr) id WAA14089 for ; Thu, 11 Jan 2001 22:39:35 -0500 (EST) Received: by natasha.auslabs.avaya.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 14:38:34 +1100 Message-ID: From: "Rankine, Alastair" To: rem-conf@es.net Subject: RTCP monitoring Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 14:38:33 +1100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Mailing-List: X-Loop: rem-conf@es.net Precedence: list Hi, [It seems the mailing list archive at ftp://ftp.es.net/pub/mail-archive/rem-conf/ is not responding, so please excuse this direct query to the list] I'm interested in RTCP monitoring applications. RFC1889 talks about such beasts briefly, and indeed I was able to find a reference to some implementations via the RTP page at http://www.cs.columbia.edu/~hgs/rtp/ . It seems that these implementations use IP multicast to direct the RTCP traffic towards the RTCP monitor. 1. Does anyone know of other implementations of RTCP monitors, besides the ones mentioned on the RTP page (eg MultiMON, rtpmon). 2. Is anyone interested in using RTCP traffic to derive timing-related information about the RTP flow? I'm specifically thinking of a one-way delay measurement. There seem to be some difficulties: a) Certain crucial timing knowledge is only present on the endpoints, hence not available to the RTCP monitor. For example, the calculation of round-trip delay described in section 6.3.4 (bottom of page 27) requires knowledge of the time a reception report block is recieved. b) RTCP traffic may be treated differently from RTP by the network (ie queuing, routing, etc), hence timing information for RTCP may not be applicable for the corresponding RTP packets. Comments on the above appreciated. -- Alastair Rankine : +61-2-98868926 : Avaya Labs Australia : arankine@avaya.com From rem-conf Fri Jan 12 05:27:26 2001 From rem-conf-request@es.net Fri Jan 12 05:27:25 2001 Received: from list by mail1.es.net with local (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14H46k-0006YA-00; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 05:19:06 -0800 Received: from ns2.multicasttech.com (multicasttech.com) [63.105.122.8] (root) by mail1.es.net with esmtp (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14H46i-0006Y0-00; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 05:19:04 -0800 Received: from [216.8.13.171] (HELO 21rst-century.com) by multicasttech.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 3.3) with ESMTP id 646592; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 08:17:08 -0500 Message-ID: <3A5F04F6.E1A88FB3@21rst-century.com> Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 08:21:57 -0500 From: Marshall Eubanks Reply-To: tme@21rst-century.com Organization: Multicast Technologies X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Rankine, Alastair" CC: rem-conf@es.net Subject: Re: RTCP monitoring References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailing-List: X-Loop: rem-conf@es.net Precedence: list "Rankine, Alastair" wrote: > > Hi, > > [It seems the mailing list archive at > ftp://ftp.es.net/pub/mail-archive/rem-conf/ is not responding, so please > excuse this direct query to the list] > > I'm interested in RTCP monitoring applications. RFC1889 talks about such > beasts briefly, and indeed I was able to find a reference to some > implementations via the RTP page at http://www.cs.columbia.edu/~hgs/rtp/ . > It seems that these implementations use IP multicast to direct the RTCP > traffic towards the RTCP monitor. > > 1. Does anyone know of other implementations of RTCP monitors, besides the > ones mentioned on the RTP page (eg MultiMON, rtpmon). > > 2. Is anyone interested in using RTCP traffic to derive timing-related > information about the RTP flow? I'm specifically thinking of a one-way delay > measurement. There seem to be some difficulties: > > a) Certain crucial timing knowledge is only present on the > endpoints, hence not available to the RTCP monitor. For example, the > calculation of round-trip delay described in section 6.3.4 (bottom of page > 27) requires knowledge of the time a reception report block is recieved. > We plan to use NTP to set up absolute time at the recivers. Of course, round trip time is not a multicast concept - it has to be point to point :). > b) RTCP traffic may be treated differently from RTP by the network > (ie queuing, routing, etc), hence timing information for RTCP may not be > applicable for the corresponding RTP packets. > Yep. If RTCP receiver traffic is sent unicast, this will be true almost for sure. Once the receivers have NTP time, then you can do meaningful one way multicast measurements source -> receiver, and send those results out on RTCP RR's. > Comments on the above appreciated. > > -- > Alastair Rankine : +61-2-98868926 : Avaya Labs Australia : > arankine@avaya.com -- Regards Marshall Eubanks Multicast Technologies, Inc. 10301 Democracy Lane, Suite 201 Fairfax, Virginia 22030 Phone : 703-293-9624 Fax : 703-293-9609 e-mail : tme@on-the-i.com http://www.on-the-i.com From rem-conf Fri Jan 12 10:15:36 2001 From rem-conf-request@es.net Fri Jan 12 10:15:36 2001 Received: from list by mail1.es.net with local (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14H8dL-0002Od-00; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 10:09:03 -0800 Received: from gw-nl4.philips.com [212.153.190.6] by mail1.es.net with esmtp (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14H8dJ-0002OT-00; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 10:09:01 -0800 Received: from smtprelay-nl1.philips.com (localhost.philips.com [127.0.0.1]) by gw-nl4.philips.com with ESMTP id TAA22990; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 19:08:58 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from philippe.gentric@philips.com) From: philippe.gentric@philips.com Received: from smtprelay-eur1.philips.com(130.139.36.3) by gw-nl4.philips.com via mwrap (4.0a) id xma022986; Fri, 12 Jan 01 19:08:58 +0100 Received: from notessmtp-nl1.philips.com (notessmtp-nl1.philips.com [130.139.36.10]) by smtprelay-nl1.philips.com (8.9.3/8.8.5-1.2.2m-19990317) with ESMTP id TAA19089; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 19:08:58 +0100 (MET) Received: from EMLMS01.DIAMOND.PHILIPS.COM (emlms01sv1.diamond.philips.com [130.143.165.213]) by notessmtp-nl1.philips.com (8.9.3/8.8.5-1.2.2m-19990317) with ESMTP id TAA26081; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 19:08:57 +0100 (MET) Received: by EMLMS01.DIAMOND.PHILIPS.COM (Soft-Switch LMS 4.0) with snapi via EMEA1 id 0056900015133158; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 19:19:13 +0100 To: Cc: , <4on2andIP-sys@advent.ee.columbia.edu> Subject: Re: RTP profile draft Message-ID: <0056900015133158000002L082*@MHS> Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 19:19:13 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; name="MEMO 01/12/01 19:09:53" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline X-Mailing-List: X-Loop: rem-conf@es.net Precedence: list kmarks@apple.com wrote: > At 5:09 PM +0100 1/11/01, philippe.gentric@philips.com wrote: > >An internet draft for a RTP profile is available at: > > > >http://search.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-gentric-avt-profile-00.= txt > > > >The purpose of this (quite short) draft is to > >introduce 2 new bits in the RTP header > >which are very useful for MPEG-4 > >-which is my primary concern these days- > >but are actually of "general" scope and > >therefore could apply to many other media types. > > > >I would like to get feedback about it. > > The problem with defining the top 2 bits is that anything that adopts= > this interpretation is going to get misdirected by many existing > payloads. RFC 1890 defines the dynamic payload range to begin at 96, > which thus means dynamic payloads all have those 2 bits set already. > However, the range between 35 and 95 is unassigned/reserved (MPEG is > at 32 & 33 & the obsolete H263 packing at 34). > I thought this issue about ranges was specific of the context of the Audio Video Profile ? Since this is a "separate profile" should these restrictions apply ? > How about defining your bits the other way up, to use that unused > range when they are off, and then restricting the range of the lower > 5 bits to not collide with existing packings? Do I understand correctly you propose that the RAP and FS bit should be= the 2 LSbits of the 7 bits PT field ? Isn't that in conflict with RFC 1889 section 5.3: "If there are any marker bits, one should be located in the most significant bit of the octet since profile-independen= t monitors may be able to observe a correlation between packet loss patterns and the marker bit." ? (although I dont understand the reason stated ...) ************* I though initialy that within the context of *A* profile the resulting dynamic PT was going to be anything that can be coded on the remaining PT=20 i.e. 5 remaining bits in our case i.e. [0-31] I understand you want to put restriction for this range ? > > > Otherwise, you may end up confusing existing implementations by > falsely signalling to them a payload of L16, JPEG, PureVoice or > whatever. This could cause other clients to crash, or draw junk or > play noise, if they mistook one of your packets for a different > format. > how is it possible to confuse since this profile would be signaled in SDP ? (BTW I forgot to define the 3 letters for this profile in my draft ;-( assuming MPG would do the job: SDP would contain: m=3Dapplication 2565 RTP/MPG 12 a=3Drtpmap:12 MP4-ES/1000 (as specified by RFC 2327) so I dont see how a confusion can occur ? > > If your low 5 bits are constrained to be one of the unassigned > values>15 (18-24) you are far less likely to accidentally collide > with another packing type. Most applications start assigning dynamic > values at 96 and go up, so this will also reduce the likelihood of > you being mistaken about the value. > > If the bits are overloaded like this, what number do you put in the m= > line of the sdp file to signal this payload? If you invert the > meanings as I suggest, you can use anything between 114 and 120, and > not confuse anyone. Hum there I am not sure I follow you because if I want the find the range of PT that I shall restrict: I compute the smallest PT value to be 9 because it is 01001 which for some receiver that does not ignore the last 2 bits of the PT field it would be 0100100 (or 3 more) i.e. 36 or more And I compute the largest value to be 23 because it is 10111 which for some receiver that does not ignore the last 2 bits of the PT field it would be 1011111 (or 3 less) i.e. 95 or less Conclusion: I would need to: - define the RAP and FS bits as the 2 left most 7 bits of (old) PT - restrict the 5 bits (new ) PT dynamic payload type to the [9-23] rang= e - so that when interpreted as a 7 bits (old) PT the result is in the range [36-95] i.e. unassigned range Did I got it right ? ****************** ****************** BTW the problem I have then is that I cannot make a SDP describing more= than 15 streams, i.e. half my original capability of 32... I have a question for SDP experts about that: Is it allowed to reuse dynamically allocated payload types in the same SDP file ? for example assume I want to do: m=3Dapplication 2565 RTP/MPG 12 a=3Drtpmap:12 MP4-ES/1000 m=3Dapplication 2566 RTP/MPG 12 a=3Drtpmap:12 MP4-ES/1000 m=3Dapplication 2567 RTP/MPG 12 a=3Drtpmap:12 MP4-ES/1000 (For example this could be 3 scalable mpeg-4 video stream (same object)= ) Is that "legal" and if not why ? Regards, -- Philippe Gentric Software Architect PHILIPS DIGITAL NETWORKS Broadcast & Internet Delivery Solutions Laboratoires d'Electronique Philips B.P. 15 - 22, Av. Descartes 94453 Limeil-Brevannes Cedex France Phone : 33 (0)1 45 10 68 12 Fax : 33 (0)1 45 10 69 60 philippe.gentric@philips.com = From rem-conf Fri Jan 12 10:15:40 2001 From rem-conf-request@es.net Fri Jan 12 10:15:40 2001 Received: from list by mail1.es.net with local (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14H8dU-0002Op-00; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 10:09:12 -0800 Received: from h-135-207-30-103.research.att.com (mail-green.research.att.com) [135.207.30.103] by mail1.es.net with esmtp (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14H8dT-0002Of-00; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 10:09:11 -0800 Received: from alliance.research.att.com (alliance.research.att.com [135.207.26.26]) by mail-green.research.att.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 356821E005; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 13:09:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from windsor.research.att.com (windsor.research.att.com [135.207.26.46]) by alliance.research.att.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA21776; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 13:09:06 -0500 (EST) From: Bill Fenner Received: (from fenner@localhost) by windsor.research.att.com (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.5) id KAA29945; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 10:09:06 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <200101121809.KAA29945@windsor.research.att.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII To: arankine@avaya.com Subject: Re: RTCP monitoring Cc: rem-conf@es.net Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 10:09:05 -0800 Versions: dmail (solaris) 2.2g/makemail 2.9a X-Mailing-List: X-Loop: rem-conf@es.net Precedence: list >1. Does anyone know of other implementations of RTCP monitors, besides the >ones mentioned on the RTP page (eg MultiMON, rtpmon). I have some bugfixes for rtpmon which I should really post. However, I switched to using "rqm" (RTP QUality Monitor), which is also unsupported but is at least newer. http://www-mice.cs.ucl.ac.uk/multimedia/software/ >2. Is anyone interested in using RTCP traffic to derive timing-related >information about the RTP flow? I'm specifically thinking of a one-way delay >measurement. You might have better luck with the RTP MIB, although a) I'm only aware of one implementation, ours, and it's not ready yet =) b) The security model for data collection is unclear (e.g. convincing random users to install an access policy that allows SNMP access for your monitoring station). If you control the clients, obviously this is easy =) Bill From rem-conf Fri Jan 12 11:07:31 2001 From rem-conf-request@es.net Fri Jan 12 11:07:30 2001 Received: from list by mail1.es.net with local (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14H9VH-0004X6-00; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 11:04:47 -0800 Received: from mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de [130.149.4.15] by mail1.es.net with esmtp (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14H9VF-0004UQ-00; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 11:04:46 -0800 Received: from ftsu07.ee.tu-berlin.de ([130.149.49.87] helo=ftmail.ee.tu-berlin.de) by mail.zrz.tu-berlin.de with esmtp (exim-3.21) id 14H9UC-00075N-00; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 20:03:40 +0100 Received: from fokus.gmd.de (ftat61.ee.TU-Berlin.DE [130.149.49.104]) by ftmail.ee.tu-berlin.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA10544; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 20:03:01 +0100 Message-ID: <3A5F52AC.65787B5F@fokus.gmd.de> Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 19:53:32 +0100 From: Adam Wolisz Reply-To: wolisz@ee.tu-berlin.de Organization: TU Berlin und GMD Fokus X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [de] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: de MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Maria.Penedo@trw.com, marne@jupitor.cs.up.ac.za, Martin.Potts@martel-consulting.ch, mascolo@cs.ucla.edu, matsb@s3.kth.se, Matthias.Holzbock@dlr.de, matti.latva-aho@ees2.oulu.fi, Max.LEMKE@cec.eu.int, max.proegler@daimlerchrysler.com, mehul.metha@roke.co.uk, Michel.Mazzella@space.alcatel.fr, michalis@cs.ucr.edu, mike.tiplady@btcellnet.net, mjj@riacs.edu, mobilemedia@media.nrw.de, multicomm@cc.bellcore.com, murios@nexo.es, nancy@di.uoa.gr, netnomics@eco.utexas.edu, nichains@BXL.DG13.cec.eu.int, npro@intracom.gr, obinata@nagoya.enicom.co.jp, okada@oucoms.osakau.ac.jp, oriol@tsc.upc.es, P145449657@ntu.edu.sg, parviz@us.ibm.com, pbuckle@nortelnetworks.com, p.conforto@roma.alespazio.it, pdemest@telecom.ntua.gr, Penther@tcl.ite.mee.com, per.johansson@ericsson.com, peter.balsinger@unine.ch, peter.poskett@ico.com, polly@zorba.jpl.nasa.gov, qofis2001pc@eden.dei.uc.pt, r2b@hostare.att.com, raghu@rushe.aero.org, raiken@cisco.com, randy@eecs.berkeley.edu, rem-conf@es.net, rema@buckaroo.ho.att.com, reres@laas.fr, richard.rumelt@anderson.ucla.edu, ritke@cs.ucla.edu, rm@mash.cs.berkeley.edu, rob.diamond@east.sun.com, Robert.Mort@support-externe.space.alcatel.fr, Rocco.Mueller@infineon.com, rolf.leppanen@kolumbus.fi, rruth@darpa.mil, rws@circuitpath.com, sasg@ee.ed.ac.uk, schen@fore.com Subject: Mobile and Wireless Internet: Special Issue of IEEE Personal Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailing-List: X-Loop: rem-conf@es.net Precedence: list Dear Colleague, please have a look at the call for papers for a the Special Issue of the IEEE Personal Communication Magazine on "Mobile and Wireless Internet: Architectures and Protocols" http://www-tkn.ee.tu-berlin.de/special_issues.html to be published in the IVth Quarter of 2001, Submission deadline June 1st, 2001. We are seriously concerned to limit the number of copies of this call you might obtain, but please excuse possible duplications! Best regards Adam Wolisz From rem-conf Fri Jan 12 11:50:48 2001 From rem-conf-request@es.net Fri Jan 12 11:50:46 2001 Received: from list by mail1.es.net with local (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14HA9Y-0005lV-00; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 11:46:24 -0800 Received: from gw-nl4.philips.com [212.153.190.6] by mail1.es.net with esmtp (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14HA9V-0005lL-00; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 11:46:22 -0800 Received: from smtprelay-nl1.philips.com (localhost.philips.com [127.0.0.1]) by gw-nl4.philips.com with ESMTP id UAA01407; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 20:46:18 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from philippe.gentric@philips.com) From: philippe.gentric@philips.com Received: from smtprelay-eur1.philips.com(130.139.36.3) by gw-nl4.philips.com via mwrap (4.0a) id xma001405; Fri, 12 Jan 01 20:46:18 +0100 Received: from notessmtp-nl1.philips.com (notessmtp-nl1.philips.com [130.139.36.10]) by smtprelay-nl1.philips.com (8.9.3/8.8.5-1.2.2m-19990317) with ESMTP id UAA13964; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 20:46:17 +0100 (MET) Received: from EMLMS01.DIAMOND.PHILIPS.COM (emlms01sv1.diamond.philips.com [130.143.165.213]) by notessmtp-nl1.philips.com (8.9.3/8.8.5-1.2.2m-19990317) with ESMTP id UAA04852; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 20:46:17 +0100 (MET) Received: by EMLMS01.DIAMOND.PHILIPS.COM (Soft-Switch LMS 4.0) with snapi via EMEA1 id 0056900015133661; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 20:56:33 +0100 To: <4on2andIP-sys@advent.ee.columbia.edu>, Subject: RTP payload for MPEG-4 SL transport Message-ID: <0056900015133661000002L012*@MHS> Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 20:56:33 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; name="MEMO 01/12/01 20:47:21" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline X-Mailing-List: X-Loop: rem-conf@es.net Precedence: list 2 internet drafts describing a RTP payload for MPEG-4 SL transport are available at: http://search.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-gentric-avt-mpeg4-singlesl= -00.txt http://search.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-gentric-avt-mpeg4-multisl-= 00.txt Both deal with generic (media agnostic) transport of MPEG-4 streams packetized using the MPEG-4 "Synchronization Layer" i.e. with this payload format any type of MPEG-4 content (audio, video, BIFS (scene), object descriptors, IPMP (encryption), etc= ) in any mode (scalable or not) can be transported. The "single SL" draft deals with RTP packets restricted to 1 SL packet and is an evolution of: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-avt-rtp-mpeg4-03.txt in several respects: - the mapping of time stamps has changed to take into account the possibility that RTP devices may re-stamp streams - the mapping of sequence number has changed to reflect the new BIFS carousel feature - with this format, devices that do not implement the MPEG-4 system stack can receive MPEG-4 audio and/or video by "skipping" the (remaining) SL header -if any. - SDP syntax has been specified for the configuration of the payload - default values allow to define an ultra-simple (no SL header) mode The "multiple SL" draft deals additionally with RTP packets containing an integer number of SL packets. The reason for the split is to make a clear separation for discussion purposes between "change that are needed anyway (as listed above)" and the transport of several SL packets in the same RTP packet, which has been a controversial issue. Note that having multiple SL packets in a single RTP packet is explicitely *not* a multiplexing scheme i.e. is an option available for packets of the same stream only. This optional scheme is required for the transport of some MPEG-4 streams that have very small SL packets (a few bits or bytes) such as low bit rate audio or FBA on networks that do not have header compression. The final target is the "multiple SL" payload format which we would like to have promoted to standard track as fast as possible because: - The MPEG-4 standard is now extremely mature - Several companies (including mine) are rolling out or will roll out soon MPEG-4-on-IP products - Alliances and standardisation entities such as 3GPP are in the proces= s of "freezing" their specification and require for that the existence of relevant RFCs. For that reason I would like to get as much feedback as possible. Also organizations and companies willing to implement it and participat= e in interoperability tests are invited to volunteer. Thanks in advance. Regards, -- Philippe Gentric Software Architect PHILIPS DIGITAL NETWORKS Broadcast & Internet Delivery Solutions Laboratoires d'Electronique Philips B.P. 15 - 22, Av. Descartes 94453 Limeil-Brevannes Cedex France Phone : 33 (0)1 45 10 68 12 Fax : 33 (0)1 45 10 69 60 philippe.gentric@philips.com http://www.mpeg-4player.com = From rem-conf Fri Jan 12 12:24:56 2001 From rem-conf-request@es.net Fri Jan 12 12:24:56 2001 Received: from list by mail1.es.net with local (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14HAgU-0006sG-00; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 12:20:26 -0800 Received: from ns.yzw.co.jp [210.226.145.162] by mail1.es.net with esmtp (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14HAgQ-0006rl-00; Fri, 12 Jan 2001 12:20:23 -0800 Received: from host (cranston-ip-1-137.dynamic.ziplink.net [209.206.4.137]) by ns.yzw.co.jp (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA03745; Sat, 13 Jan 2001 05:08:02 +0900 (JST) (envelope-from qath8@space.com) Message-Id: <200101122008.FAA03745@ns.yzw.co.jp> From: "Robert Tunis" Subject: Your Chance #3340 To: list48dv@ns.yzw.co.jp X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE VĐßD.1712.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 14:53:27 -0500 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_007F_01BDF6C7.FABAC1B0" X-Mailing-List: X-Loop: rem-conf@es.net Precedence: list This is a MIME Message ------=_NextPart_000_007F_01BDF6C7.FABAC1B0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0080_01BDF6C7.FABAC1B0" ------=_NextPart_001_0080_01BDF6C7.FABAC1B0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ***** This is an HTML Message ! ***** ------=_NextPart_001_0080_01BDF6C7.FABAC1B0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Executive Guild Membership ApplicationResponse-O-Matic Form

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From rem-conf Sat Jan 13 10:40:06 2001 From rem-conf-request@es.net Sat Jan 13 10:40:06 2001 Received: from list by mail1.es.net with local (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14HVVk-0006aW-00; Sat, 13 Jan 2001 10:34:44 -0800 Received: from (mail.cadiware.ch) [212.40.14.200] by mail1.es.net with esmtp (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14HVVg-0006a3-00; Sat, 13 Jan 2001 10:34:41 -0800 Received: from jimboy (1cust26.tnt30.lax3.da.uu.net [63.25.201.26]) by mail.cadiware.ch with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2650.21) id Z2ZK9023; Sat, 13 Jan 2001 19:33:34 +0100 To: cdildine@datakey.nl From: cdildine@datakey.nl Comments: Authenticated sender is Reply-to: cdildine@datakey.nl Subject: New - Fresh - 19-Million E-Mail Addresses on a CD Message-Id: <200101054067MAA28663@post.40.14.217> Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 10:34:41 -0800 X-Mailing-List: X-Loop: rem-conf@es.net Precedence: list _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ JUST RELEASED 19-Million Fresh E-Mail Addresses _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ Our research has found that many people have tried one or more of the following... Free Classifieds? (Don't work anymore) Web Site? (Takes thousands of visitors) Banners? (Expensive and losing their punch) E-Zine? (Hope they have a *huge* subscriber list) Search Engines? (Forget it, unless you're in the top 20) S O W H A T W I L L W O R K ? Although often misunderstood, there is one method that has proven to succeed time-after-time. E - M A I L M A R K E T I N G ! ! IT'S A FACT... It if you're not using your computer to generate income, GOOD income, you're leaving money on the table. Here's what the experts have to say about E-Mail Marketing: "E-mail is an incredible lead generation tool" -Crains Magazine "A gold mine for those who can take advantage of bulk e-mail programs" - The New York Times "Blows away traditional Mailing" - Advertising Age Here's an example of your potential earnings if you have a product or service that brings you a profit of around $30. Remember, on the Internet, you can make money 7 days a week, 24 hours a day... even while you sleep, orders come from all over the world! Orders Per Day Weekly Monthly Yearly 1 $ 210 $ 840 $ 10,080 2 420 1,680 20,160 3 630 2,520 30,240 5 1,050 4,200 50,400 10 2,100 8,400 100,000 15 3,150 12,600 151,200 THE QUESTION IS... how do you generate those orders? The least expensive and fastest way is through E-Mail Marketing. M I L L I O N S V O L U M E 14 ***New Just Released - and now, 19 Million addresses*** We have just increased our list size from 15-million to 19-million without a corresponding increase in price! M I L L I O N S V O L U M E 14 Over the past 6 years, we have gained a reputation for having the cleanest, most responsive e-mail address lists in the industry. No one has gone to the work it takes to produce an e-mail address list of this quality. Here's how we prepare our e-mail lists: 1. We clean and eliminate all duplicates. 2. Next, we use a filter list of 400+ words/phrases to clean even more. No address with inappropriate or profane wording survives! 3. Then we use our private database of thousands of known Internet "extremists", those opposed to any kind of commercial e-mail, and kicked off every one we could find. 4. All domains were verified to insure they're valid. 5. And finally, we sorted the list into easy-to-manage packets of 20,000 addresses in simple text (.txt) format that will work with any computer operating system. WHAT DID WE END UP WITH? M I L L I O N S V O L U M E 14 19 Million Addresses Strong! With this super clean e-mail address lists you'll send less...and get better results... * Y O U G E T W H A T Y O U P A Y F O R * Our FRESH 19 Million, Volume 14 Address List CD, will result in: * Higher Response Rates * Higher Sales Conversion Ratios * More Receptive prospects; Less Flames & Non-Buyers. * Less Contact With Anti-Commerce Radicals & Extremists. Remember that potential income chart at the beginning of this message? Can you imagine the kind of money you could make if you mailed one million pieces and sold only one tenth (.01%) of one percent? You do the math, you'll be amazed! This is not a rental list that is restricted to a one-time mailing. You are purchasing an e-mail address list for your personal mailings and may use it over-and-over. DON'T HESITATE on this offer or you will miss out on the least expensive, most effective way to market... PERIOD! _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ F R E E B O N U S E S Order within 96 hours and we'll include the following FREE Bonuses... we call this our "BUSINESS STARTER" bonus. 1. To help you get started we include basic proven Professional Mailing Software (PC Only). This software has sold for as high as $399.00 in the past. Not a demo, but a full working version. SORRY, SINCE THE SOFTWARE IS FREE WE CANNOT OFFER ANY TECHNICAL SUPPORT, however set-up instructions and help files are included. 2. Every survey has always indicated that the most profitable product to sell on the Internet is INFORMATION! Our "BUSINESS STARTER" bonus gives you 650 reports/manuals/books that are yours to use and sell. With these "Special Reports" you may instantly start your "Information Product" business... plus a sample SALES LETTER is included to help you GET STARTED FAST! 3. "THE BULK E-MAIL SURVIVAL GUIDE" A manual/guide that addresses the Bulk E-Mail business. Especially useful for beginners. "THE BULK E-MAIL SURVIVAL GUIDE" will answer many of your questions and concerns about Bulk E-Mail. An exclusive for our customers... INCLUDED FREE. 4. "LISTMATE" - This is the software the Pro's use to manage their mailing lists. We've included two versions, both are fully functional demo's, the only limit is the file size. 5. "SCIENTIFIC ADVERTISING"! This is the book that is responsible for untold millions of dollars in sales and profits. Many of today's Internet "gurus" have used this powerful book as the foundation for marketing courses that they have written and sold for as much as $495. Marketeer's that have studied this book have been so deeply inspired, that it has changed their entire way of doing business, and they've gone on to make fortunes -- it's yours FREE with your order! This "BUSINESS STARTER" bonus is yours absolutely FREE if you order within the next 96 hours --- After that... Poof!... it's gone! _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ D O N ' T H E S I T A T E E-Marketing is the most effective and fastest way to market anywhere... PERIOD! O R D E R N O W . . . SAME DAY SERVICE (M-F) if your order is received before 2pm Pacific. 24hour fax service, just fax to: 1-530-504-5247 or if busy 1-612-632-5008 To order, via credit card simply cut/paste and print out the EZ ORDER FORM below and fax to our office today. ***** MILLIONS CD - Volume 14 ***** ***** NOW ONLY $247! ***** This "Special Price" is in effect for the next 96 hours, after that we go back to our regular price of $299.00 ... Don't delay... you can be in business tomorrow! We accept Visa, Mastercard, Amex and Checks by Fax. Fax your order to: 1-530-504-5247 or if busy 1-612-632-5008 ----------------------Cut & Paste---------------------- ---------------------EZ Order Form--------------------- _____Yes! I want everything! I am ordering within 96 hours. Include my FREE "Business On A CD" bonus along with the 19 Million Vol.14 E-Mail address CD for the special price of only $247.00 + one of the shipping options I have indicated below. _____Oop's I missed the 96 hour "special". I am ordering Vol.14 at the regular price of $299.00 + shipping. ***PLEASE SELECT YOUR SHIPPING OPTION*** ____I would like to receive my package FedEx OVERNIGHT. I am including $15 for shipping. (Hawaii & Alaska $20 - Canada $25, all other International add an *additional* $25 [$40 total] for shipping) ____I would like to receive my package FedEx 2nd Day delivery. I'm including $10 for shipping. (***Sorry FedEx 2nd Day is NOT AVAILABLE for shipments to Alaska, Hawaii, Canada or any International destination - Continental U.S. shipping only***). ***Please Print Carefully*** NOTE: Orders cannot be shipped without complete information including your signature. No exceptions! NAME____________________________________________________ COMPANY NAME____________________________________________ ADDRESS_________________________________________________ (FedEx can only ship to street addresses - no P.O. boxes) CITY________________________________________ STATE/PROVINCE______________________________ COUNTRY_____________________________________ ZIP/POSTAL CODE_____________________________ PHONE NUMBER________________________________ (required for shipping & tracking) EMAIL ADDRESS___________________________________________ (Print Very Carefully With Block Letters - our ability to read your e-mail address is critical. We will be sending you instructions... if we cannot read your writing, we're both stuck!!! TYPE OF CREDIT CARD: ______VISA _____MASTERCARD _____AMEX CREDIT CARD# __________________________________________ EXPIRATION DATE________________________________________ NAME ON CARD___________________________________________ TOTAL AMOUNT (Including Shipping): $___________________ DATE:x__________________ (Required) SIGNATURE:x_________________________________ I understand that I am purchasing the Millions Vol.14 E-Mail Address List on a CD. The addresses are not rented, and while I may use the list for my own personal mailing, it is copyrighted and I may not share or offer it for resale. Free bonuses are included, but cannot be considered part of the financial transaction. I understand that it is my responsibility to comply with any laws applicable to my local area. As with all software, once opened the CD may not be returned, however, if found defective it will be replaced with like product at no charge. You may fax your order to us at: 1-530-504-5247 or if busy 1-612-632-5008 CHECK BY FAX SERVICES! Please Note: Sorry, we can only accept checks drawn on U.S. banks. If you would like to fax a check, tape your check below and fax it to our office along with the EZ Order Form to: 1-530-504-5247 or if busy 1-612-632-5008 ****************************************************** ***24 HOUR FAX SERVICES*** PLEASE TAPE YOUR CHECK HERE AND FAX IT TO US AT 1-530-504-5247 or if busy 1-612-632-5008 ******************************************************* If You fax a check, there is no need for you to mail the original. We will prepare a one-time draft, with the exact information on your original check. All checks will be held for bank clearance (14 business days). Make payable to: "CD-Marketing" ***************************************************************** All REMOVE requests are AUTOMATICALLY honored upon receipt. mailto:nomoremail@hongkong.com?subject=remove PLEASE understand that any effort to disrupt, close or block this REMOVE account can only result in difficulties for others wanting to be removed from our mailing list. ***************************************************************** From rem-conf Sun Jan 14 01:16:56 2001 From rem-conf-request@es.net Sun Jan 14 01:16:55 2001 Received: from list by mail1.es.net with local (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14HjAl-0000t3-00; Sun, 14 Jan 2001 01:09:59 -0800 Received: from (anpak.com) [203.161.226.185] by mail1.es.net with esmtp (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14HjAi-0000rs-00; Sun, 14 Jan 2001 01:09:56 -0800 Received: from matematicas.unal.edu.co [216.190.105.45] by anpak.com (SMTPD32-6.00) id AB11D000AA; Sun, 14 Jan 2001 17:02:09 +0800 To: From: otwnz@lemailparisien.com Subject: Judgment Processing Professional ~ 30182 Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 01:06:30 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Message-Id: <20010114170279.SM00932@matematicas.unal.edu.co> X-Mailing-List: X-Loop: rem-conf@es.net Precedence: list Thank you for your interest! 2

Judgment Courses offers an extensive Audio training
course in "How to Collect Money Judgments" .

If you are like many people, you are not even sure what a
Money Judgment is and why processing Money Judgments
can earn you very substantial income .

If you ever sue a company or a person and you win then you
will have a Money Judgment against them.

You are happy you won but you will soon find out the
shocking fact: "Its now up to you to collect on the
Judgment". The court does not require the loser to pay you.
The court will not even help you. You must trace the loser
down, find their assets, their employment, bank accounts,
real estate, stocks and bonds, etc.

Very few people know how to find these assets or what to do
when they are found. The result is that millions of
Judgments are just sitting in files and being forgotten.

"In 79% of the cases the winner of a Judgment never sees a
dime."

The non-payment of judicial debt has grown to epidemic
proportions. Right now in the United States there is
between 200 and 300 billion dollars of uncollected Mon= ey
Judgment debt . For every Judgment that is paid, 5 more
Judgments take its place.

We identified this massive market 8 years ago and have
actively pursued Judicial Judgments since. We invented this
business. We have perfected it into a well proven and solid
profession in which only a select few will be trained in the
techniques necessary to succeed.

With our first hand experience we have built a course which
teaches you how to start your business in this new unknown
and exciting field of processing Money Judgments.

By following the steps laid out in our course and with
reasonable effort you can become very successful in the
processing of Money Judgments.

The income potential is substantial in this profession. We
have associates who have taken our course and are now
working full time making $96,000.00 to over $200,000.00 per
year. Part time associates are earning between $24,000.00
and $100,000.00 per year . Some choose to operate out of
their home and work by themselves. Others build a sizable
organization of 15 to 25 people in attractive business
offices.

Today our company and our associates have over 126
million dollars in Money Judgments that we are currently
processing. Of this 126 million, 25 million is in the form
of joint ventures between our firm and our associates.
Joint ventures are where we make our money. We only break
even when our course is purchased. We make a 12% margin on
the reports we supply to our associates. Our reporting
capability is so extensive that government agencies, police
officers, attorneys, credit agencies etc., all come to us
for reports.


Many of our associates already have real estate liens in
force of between 5 million to over 15 million dollars.
Legally this means that when the properties are sold or
refinanced our associate must be paid off. The norm is 10%
interest compounded annually on unpaid Money Judgments.
Annual interest on 5 million at 10% translates to
$500,000.00 annually in interest income, not counting the
payment of the principal.

Our associates earn half of this amount or $250,000.00 per
year. This is just for interest, not counting principle
and not counting the compounding of the interest which can
add substantial additional income. Typically companies are
sold for 10 times earnings. Just based on simple interest
an associate with 5 million in real estate liens could sell
their business for approximately 2.5 million dollars.

 92% of all of our associates work out of their= home; 43%
are women and 36% are part time .

One of the benefits of working in this field is that you are
not under any kind of time frame. If you decide to take off
for a month on vacation then go. The Judgments you are
working on will be there when you return. The Judgments
are still in force, they do not disappear.

The way we train you is non-confrontational. You use your
computer and telephone to do most of the processing. You
never confront the debtor. The debtor doesn't know who you
are. You are not a collection agency.

Simply stated the steps to successful Money Processing
are as follows:

Mail our recommended letter to companies and individuals
with Money Judgments. (We train you how to find out who
to write to)

8% to 11% of the firms and people you write will call you
and ask for your help. They call you, you don't call them
unless you want to.

You send them an agreement (supplied in the course) to
sign which splits every dollar you collect 50% to you and
50% to them. This applies no matter if the judgment is for
$2,000.00 or $2,000,000.00.

You then go on-line to our computers to find the debtor
and their assets. We offer over 120 powerful reports to
assist you. They range from credit reports from all three
credit bureaus, to bank account locates, employment
locates, skip traces and locating stocks and bonds, etc.
The prices of our reports are very low. Typically 1/2 to
1/3 of what other firms charge. For example we charge
$6.00 for an individuals credit report when some other
companies charge $25.00.

Once you find the debtor and their assets you file
garnishments and liens on the assets you have located.
(Standard fill in the blanks forms are included in the
course)

When you receive the assets you keep 50% and send 50% to
the original Judgment holder.

Once the Judgment is fully paid you mail a Satisfaction of
Judgment to the court. (Included in the course)

Quote's from several of our students:

Thomas in area code 516 writes us: "I just wanted to drop
you a short note thanking you for your excellent course. My
first week, part time, will net me 3,700.00 dollars . Your
professionalism in both the manual and the video opened
doors for me in the future. There's no stopping me now.
Recently Thomas states he has over $8,500,000 worth of
judgments he is working on.

After only having this course for four months, Larry S. in
area code 314 stated to us: " I am now making $2,000.00 per
week and expect this to grow to twice this amount = within the
next year. I am having a ball. I have over $250,000 in
judgments I am collecting on now."

After having our course for 7 months Larry S. in 314 stated
" I am now making $12,000.00 per month and have approximately
$500,000.00 in judgments I am collecting on. Looks like I
will have to hire someone to help out"

Marshal in area code 407 states to us "I feel bad, you only
charged me $259.00 for this course and it is a goldmine. I
have added 3 full time people to help me after only having
your course for 5 months"

>From the above information and actual results you can see
why we can state the following:

With our course you can own your own successful business.
A business which earns you substantial income now and one
which could be sold in 3-5 years, paying you enough to
retire on and travel the world. A business which is
extremely interesting to be in. A Business in which every
day is new and exciting.

None of your days will be hum-drum. Your brain is
Challenged. A business, which protects you from Corporate
Downsizing. A business which you can start part time from
your home and later, if you so desire, you can work in full
time. A business, which is your ticket to freedom from
others telling you what to do. A business, which lets you
control your own destiny. Our training has made this happen
for many others already. Make it happen for you!

If the above sounds interesting to you then its time for you
to talk to a real live human being, no cost or obligation
on your part.

 Please call us at 1-4 0 6--6 5 2--0 1 9 4<= /FONT> .

We have Customer Support staff available to you from 8= :00am to
9:00pm (Mountain Time) 7 days a week . If you call this number
you can talk to one of our experienced Customer Support personnel.
They can answer any questions you may have - with no obligation.
Sometimes we run special pricing on our courses and combinations
of courses. When you call our Customer Support line they can let
you know of any specials we may be running. If you like what you
read and hear about our courses, then the Customer Support person
can work with you to place your order. We are very low key. We
merely give you the facts and you can then decide if you want to
work with us or not.

Thank you for your time and interest.















--------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------
This ad is designed and distributed by:
OnLine Advertising, Dallas, TX 75006.
To be removed please email us at Sally.Hendrix@terbomail.com with remove i= n the subject line only.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------= -----

From rem-conf Sun Jan 14 01:28:03 2001 From rem-conf-request@es.net Sun Jan 14 01:28:03 2001 Received: from list by mail1.es.net with local (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14HjMn-0001Nj-00; Sun, 14 Jan 2001 01:22:25 -0800 Received: from dsii.dsi.unifi.it [150.217.15.31] by mail1.es.net with esmtp (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14HjMl-0001NP-00; Sun, 14 Jan 2001 01:22:23 -0800 Received: (from icsm2001@localhost) by dsiI.dsi.unifi.it (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) id KAA26779 for rem-conf@es.net; Sun, 14 Jan 2001 10:08:41 +0100 (MET) Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 10:08:41 +0100 (MET) From: icsm2001 (NESI) Message-Id: <200101140908.KAA26779@dsiI.dsi.unifi.it> To: rem-conf@es.net Subject: IEEE Conference Software Maint. Italy,Florence, ICSM2001 X-Mailing-List: X-Loop: rem-conf@es.net Precedence: list Dear Colleague I would like to invite you to propose papers, experiences, tutorials, tool expositions, dissertations at the IEEE International Conference on Software Maintenance, 2001, and workshops: SCAM, WESS, WSE and TABOO, etc., November 2001, Florence, Italy. ICSM is the major international conference in the field of software and systems maintenance, evolution, management, software metrics and quality, etc. Outstanding Keynotes such as: >->->Prof. David Lorge Parnas, Prof. Dieter Rombach, Prof. Ivar Jacobson<-<-<- Awards, workshops, panels, and other exciting activities have been planned. Please note in the following the new deadline that has been moved to satisfy the several requests recevied, next deadline >->->->-29 January 2001<-<-<-<-<-<- Please forward this remind to anybody who you think may be interested. Apologies if you have already seen this. If you would like to be removed from our list please send an email to icsm2001@dsi.unifi.it with REMOVE in the subject. ICSM2001 Paolo Nesi (General Chair) _=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_= >->->CALL---FOR---PAPERs<-<-< IEEE International Conference on Software Maintenance 2001 FLORENCE, ITALY, 6-10 November 2001 http://www.dsi.unifi.it/icsm2001 Theme: Systems and Software Evolution in the era of the Internet IMPORTANT DATES, DEADLINES Research Paper submission 29 January 2001 Dissertation submission 29 January 2001 Industrial Application submission 12 March 2001 Tools request and submission 12 March 2001 Tutorial submission 12 February 2001 _=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_=_= From rem-conf Sun Jan 14 12:04:02 2001 From rem-conf-request@es.net Sun Jan 14 12:04:01 2001 Received: from list by mail1.es.net with local (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14HtAy-0002Dv-00; Sun, 14 Jan 2001 11:50:52 -0800 Received: from pd9504ce0.dip.t-dialin.net (server01) [217.80.76.224] by mail1.es.net with smtp (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14HtAt-0002DS-00; Sun, 14 Jan 2001 11:50:48 -0800 From: To: Date: So, 14 Jan 2001 17:14:50 Message-Id: <173.211734.667481@server01> Subject: Fun Stuff Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailing-List: X-Loop: rem-conf@es.net Precedence: list Dear Friend: AS SEEN ON NATIONAL TV: ''Making over half million dollars every 4 to 5 months from your home for an investment of only $25 U.S. Dollars expense one time'' THANKS TO THE COMPUTER AGE AND THE INTERNET! =============================================== BE A MILLIONAIRE LIKE OTHERS WITHIN A YEAR !! Before you say ''Bull'' , please read the following. This is the letter you have been hearing about on the news lately. Due to the popularity of this letter on the internet, a national weekly news program recently devoted an entire show to the investigation of this program described below , to see if it really can make people money. The show also investigated whether or not the program was legal. Their findings proved once and for all that there are ''absolutely NO. Laws prohibiting the participation in the program and if people can follow the simple instructions, they are bound to make some mega bucks with only $25 out of pocket cost''. DUE TO THE RECENT INCREASE OF POPULARITY & RESPECT THIS PROGRAM HAS ATTAINED, IT IS CURRENTLY WORKING BETTER THAN EVER. This is what one had to say: ''Thanks to this profitable opportunity. I was approached many times before but each time I passed on it. I am so glad I finally joined just to see what one could expect in return for the minimal effort and money required. To my astonishment, I received total $ 610,470.00 in 21 weeks, with money still coming in''. Pam Hedland, Fort Lee, New Jersey. ------------------------------------------------------------------ ------- Here is another testimonial: ''This program has been around for a long time but I never believed in it. But one day when I received this again in the mail I decided to gamble my $25 on it. I followed the simple instructions and walaa ..... 3 weeks later the money started to come in. First month I only made $240.00 but the next 2 months after that I made a total of $290,000.00. So far, in the past 8 months by re-entering the program,I have made over $710,000.00 and I am playing it again. The key to success in this program is to follow the simple steps and NOT change anything .'' More testimonials later but first, ****** PRINT THIS NOW FOR YOUR FUTURE REFERENCE ******* $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ If you would like to make at least $500,000 every 4 to 5 months easily and comfortably, please read the following...THEN READ IT AGAIN and AGAIN !!! $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ FOLLOW THE SIMPLE INSTRUCTION BELOW AND YOUR FINANCIAL DREAMS WILL COME TRUE, GUARANTEED! INSTRUCTIONS: **** Order all 5 reports shown on the list below. **** For each report, send $5 CASH, THE NAME & NUMBER OF THE REPORT YOU ARE ORDERING and YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS to the person whose name appears ON THAT LIST next to the report. MAKE SURE YOUR RETURN ADDRESS IS ON YOUR ENVELOPE TOP LEFT CORNER in case of any mail problems. **** When you place your order, make sure you order each of the 5 reports. You will need all 5 reports so that you can save them on your computer and resell them. YOUR TOTAL COST $5 X 5 = $25.00. **** Within a few days you will receive, vie e-mail, each of the 5 reports from these 5 different individuals. Save them on your computer so they will be accessible for you to send to the 1,000's of people who will order them from you. Also make a floppy of these reports and keep it on your desk in case something happen to your computer. ****.IMPORTANT - DO NOT alter the names of the people who are listed next to each report, or their sequence on the list, in any way other than what is instructed below in step '' 1 through 6 '' or you will loose out on majority of your profits. Once you understand the way this works, you will also see how it does not work if you change it. Remember, this method has been tested, and if you alter, it will NOT work!!! People have tried to put their friends/relatives names on all five thinking they could get all the money. But it does not work this way. Believe us, we all have tried to be greedy and then nothing happened. So Do Not try to change anything other than what is instructed. Because if you do, it will not work for you. Remember, honesty reaps the reward!!! 1.. After you have ordered all 5 reports, take this advertisement and REMOVE the name & address of the person in REPORT # 5. This person has made it through the cycle and is no doubt counting their fortune. 2.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 4 down TO REPORT # 5. 3.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 3 down TO REPORT # 4. 4.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 2 down TO REPORT # 3. 5.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 1 down TO REPORT # 2 6.... Insert YOUR name & address in the REPORT # 1 Position. PLEASE MAKE SURE you copy every name & address ACCURATELY ! ========================================================= Take this entire letter, with the modified list of names, and save it on your computer. DO NOT MAKE ANY OTHER CHANGES. Save this on a disk as well just in case if you loose any data. To assist you with marketing your business on the internet, the 5 reports you purchase will provide you with invaluable marketing information which includes how to send bulk e-mails legally, where to find thousands of free classified ads and much more. There are 2 Primary methods to get this venture going: METHOD # 1 : BY SENDING BULK E-MAIL LEGALLY ============================================ let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and we will assume You and those involved send out only 5,000 e-mails each. Let's also assume that the mailing receive only a 0.2% response (the response could be much better but lets just say it is only 0.2% . Also many people will send out hundreds of thousands e-mails instead of only 5,000 each). Continuing with this example, you send out only 5,000 e-mails. With a 0.2% response, that is only 10 orders for report # 1. Those 10 people responded by sending out 5,000 e-mail each for a total of 50,000. Out of those 50,000 e-mails only 0.2% responded with orders. That's = 100 people responded and ordered Report # 2. Those 100 people mail out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 500,000 e-mails. The 0.2% response to that is 1000 orders for Report # 3. Those 1000 people send out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 5 million e-mails sent out. The 0.2% response to that is 10,000 orders for Report # 4. Those 10,000 people send out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 50,000,000 (50 million) e-mails. The 0.2% response to that is 100,000 orders for Report # 5. THAT'S 100,000 ORDERS TIMES $5 EACH = $500,000.00 (half million). Your total income in this example is: 1..... $50 + 2..... $500 + 3..... $5,000 + 4..... $50,000 + 5..... $500,000 ......... Grand Total = $555,550.00 NUMBERS DO NOT LIE. GET A PENCIL & PAPER AND FIGURE OUT THE WORST POSSIBLE RESPONSES AND NO MATTER HOW YOU CALCULATE IT, YOU WILL STILL MAKE A LOT OF MONEY ! ------------------------------------------------------------------ ---------- REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING ONLY 10 PEOPLE ORDERING OUT OF 5,000 YOU MAILED TO. Dare to think for a moment what would happen if everyone, or half or even one 4th of those people mailed 100,000 e-mails each or more? There are over 150 million people on the internet worldwide and counting. Believe me, many people will do just that, and more! METHOD # 2 : BY PLACING FREE ADS ON THE INTERNET =================================================== Advertising on the net is very very inexpensive and there are hundreds of FREE places to advertise. Placing a lot of free ads on the internet will easily get a larger response. We strongly suggest you start with Method # 1 and add METHOD # 2 as you go along. For every $5 you receive, all you must do is e-mail them the Report they ordered. That's it . Always provide same day service on all orders. This will guarantee that the e-mail they send out, with your name and address on it, will be prompt because they can not advertise until they receive the report. _____________________ AVAILABLE REPORTS_____________________ ORDER EACH REPORT BY ITS NUMBER & NAME ONLY. Notes: Always send $5 cash (U.S. CURRENCY) for each Report. Checks NOT accepted. Make sure the cash is concealed by wrapping it in at least 2 sheets of paper. On one of those sheets of paper, Write the NUMBER & the NAME of the Report you are ordering, YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS and your name and postal address. PLACE YOUR ORDER FOR THESE REPORTS NOW : ============================================== REPORT #1, "The Insider's Guide to Sending Bulk E-mail on the Internet" ORDER REPORT #1 FROM: J. Jennings Wittelsbacher Allee 115 60385 Frankfurt Germany (when possible send 10 German Mark bills) don't forget to provide a real e-mail address to receive the reports ============================================== REPORT #2 "The Insider's Guide to Advertising for Free on the Internet" ORDER REPORT #2 FROM: Brad KLutinoty 9404 Cameron Ridge Way #117 Indianapolis, In 46240 USA ============================================== REPORT #3 "The Secrets to Multilevel Marketing on the Internet" ORDER REPORT #3 FROM: John Lutheran P.O.Box 33555 Sandiego, Ca. 92163-3555 USA ============================================== REPORT #4 "How to become a Millionaire utilizing the Power of Multilevel Marketing and the Internet" ORDER REPORT #4 FROM: MichaelGreen p.o. box 326 Union Lake,Mi. 48387 USA ============================================== REPORT #5 "How to SEND 1,000,000 e-mails for FREE" ORDER REPORT #5 FROM: Trumpeter Productions 4105 Tujunga Ave.#6 Studio City, Ca. 91604 USA ============================================== There are currently more than 250,000,000 people online $$$$$$$$$ YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINES $$$$$$$$$$$ Follow these guidelines to guarantee your success: If you do not receive at least 10 orders for Report #1 within 2 weeks, continue sending e-mails until you do. After you have received 10 orders, 2 to 3 weeks after that you should receive 100 orders or more for REPORT # 2. If you did not, continue advertising or sending e-mails until you do. Once you have received 100 or more orders for Report # 2, YOU CAN RELAX, because the system is already working for you , and the cash will continue to roll in ! THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER : Every time your name is moved down on the list, you are placed in front of a different report. You can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS by watching which report people are ordering from you. IF YOU WANT TO GENERATE MORE INCOME SEND ANOTHER BATCH OF E-MAILS AND START THE WHOLE PROCESS AGAIN. There is NO LIMIT to the income you can generate from this business !!! ____________________________________________________ FOLLOWING IS A NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM: "You have just received information that can give you financial freedom for the rest of your life, with NO RISK and JUST A LITTLE BIT OF EFFORT. You can make more money in the next few weeks and months than you have ever imagined. Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED. Do Not change it in any way. It works exceedingly well as it is now. Remember to e-mail a copy of this exciting report after you have put your name and address in Report #1 and moved others to #2...........# 5 as instructed above. One of the people you send this to may send out 100,000 or more e-mails and your name will be on everyone of them. Remember though, the more you send out the more potential customers you will reach. So my friend, I have given you the ideas, information, materials and opportunity to become financially independent. IT IS UP TO YOU NOW ! ************** MORE TESTIMONIALS **************** '' My name is Mitchell. My wife , Jody and I live in Chicago. I am an accountant with a major U.S. Corporation and I make pretty good money. When I received this program I grumbled to Jody about receiving ''junk mail''. I made fun of the whole thing, spouting my knowledge of the population and percentages involved. I ''knew'' it wouldn't work. Jody totally ignored my supposed intelligence and few days later she jumped in with both feet. I made merciless fun of her, and was ready to lay the old ''I told you so'' on her when the thing didn't work. Well, the laugh was on me! Within 3 weeks she had received 50 responses. Within the next 45 days she had received a total of $ 147,200.00 all cash! I was shocked. I have joined Jody in her ''hobby''. Mitchell Wolf, M.D. , Chicago, Illinois ------------------------------------------------------------ '' Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my mind to participate in this plan. But conservative that I am, I decided that the initial investment was so little that there was just no way that I wouldn't get enough orders to at least get my money back. I was surprised when I found my medium size post office box crammed with orders. I made $319,210.00 in the first 12 weeks. The nice thing about this deal is that it does not matter where people live. There simply isn't a better investment with a faster return and so big''. Dan Sondstrom, Alberta, Canada ----------------------------------------------------------- '' I had received this program before. I deleted it, but later I wondered if I should have given it a try. Of course, I had no idea who to contact to get another copy, so I had to wait until I was e-mailed again by someone else.........11 months passed then it luckily came again...... I did not delete this one! I made more than $490,000 on my first try and all the money came within 22 weeks''. Susan De Suza, New York, N.Y. ---------------------------------------------------- '' It really is a great opportunity to make relatively easy money with little cost to you. I followed the simple instructions carefully and within 10 days the money started to come in. My first month I made $ 20, 560.00 and by the end of third month my total cash count was $ 362,840.00. Life is beautiful, Thanx to internet''. Fred Dellaca, Westport, New Zealand ------------------------------------------------------------ ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND GET STARTED ON YOUR ROAD TO FINANCIAL FREEDOM ! ======================================================= If you have any questions of the legality of this program, contact the Office of Associate Director for Marketing Practices, Federal Trade Commission, Bureau of Consumer Protection, Washington, D.C. //////////////////////////////////////////////// ONE TIME MAILING, NO NEED TO REMOVE ////////////////////////////////////////////// This message is sent in compliance of the proposed bill SECTION 301. per Section 301, Paragraph (a)(2)(C) of S. 1618. Further transmission to you by the sender of this e-mail may be stopped at no cost to you by sending a reply to : Sophie530@email.com with the word Remove in the subject line. This message is not intended for residents in the State of Washington, screening of addresses has been done to the best of our technical ability. -------- T H E E N D -------- From rem-conf Sun Jan 14 13:28:11 2001 From rem-conf-request@es.net Sun Jan 14 13:28:10 2001 Received: from list by mail1.es.net with local (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14Hudd-0003y6-00; Sun, 14 Jan 2001 13:24:33 -0800 Received: from smtp2.libero.it [193.70.192.52] by mail1.es.net with esmtp (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14Hudb-0003xk-00; Sun, 14 Jan 2001 13:24:31 -0800 Received: from [151.15.235.56] (151.15.235.56) by smtp2.libero.it (5.5.015.5) id 3A5365A6007BDD8B for rem-conf@es.net; Sun, 14 Jan 2001 22:23:30 +0100 Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 22:23:30 +0100 (added by postmaster@iol.it) Message-ID: <3A5365A6007BDD8B@smtp2.libero.it> (added by postmaster@iol.it) From: Euro Computer Group To: Subject: Listino prezzi X-Mailing-List: X-Loop: rem-conf@es.net Precedence: list Con il seguente e-mail vi comunichiamo i nostri migliori prezzi riguardanti i seguenti articoli : CPU Pentium III 800/133 box Lire 365.000 CPU Pentium III 866/133 box Lire 425.000 CPU Celeron 700 box Lire 168.000 CPU Celeron 733 box Lire 214.000 Hard Disk Samsung 10.2 Gb 5400 Rpm Lire 166.000 Hard Disk Samsung 20.4 Gb 5400 Rpm Lire 184.000 Memorie M-Tec 64 Mb Pc 133 Lire 44.000 Memoria M-Tec 128 Mb Pc 133 Lire 81.000 Per ulteriori informazione potete chiamare il numero telefonico +39 0184 230131 o inviare un fax al seguente numero +39 0184 232824 E-mail eurocomputergroup@libero.it Con l'occasione Vi aguriamo un buon lavoro. From rem-conf Sun Jan 14 14:06:17 2001 From rem-conf-request@es.net Sun Jan 14 14:06:16 2001 Received: from list by mail1.es.net with local (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14HvF3-00054m-00; Sun, 14 Jan 2001 14:03:13 -0800 Received: from mail.ort.org.il [62.0.192.20] by mail1.es.net with smtp (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14HvF0-00054U-00; Sun, 14 Jan 2001 14:03:10 -0800 Received: (qmail 12403 invoked from network); 14 Jan 2001 19:52:08 -0000 Received: from fw-int.ort.org.il (HELO ort-fw) (62.0.192.4) by mail.ort.org.il with SMTP; 14 Jan 2001 19:52:08 -0000 To: From: stac2ey@hk04.herrenknecht.de Subject: you can do it too! Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 12:00:56 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Message-Id: X-Mailing-List: X-Loop: rem-conf@es.net Precedence: list Start your own online/offline business within 72 hours. No matter who you are or Where you are, you can! This is not a huge corporation writing, this is a regular family with 2 kids that was able to quit their job and work >from home. Please, give it a try!!! FREE E-BOOK for every visitor!! Interested????.....send us an email and we will forward further info: =========================================================== Send an email to: doitnow@uol.com.ar with "e-book" in the * SUBJECT* field. =========================================================== The first 75 people will also get a FREE Report!! =========================================================== See Below for INSTANT ACCESS! ==>> Send e-mail to: mailto: doitnow@uol.com.ar?subject=e-book =========================================================== This message is sent in compliance of the new email bill section 301. Per Section 301, Paragraph (a)(2)(C) of S. 1618, further transmissions to you by the sender of this email may be stopped at no cost to you by contacting us: congia3@interfree.it Please type "Remove" in the subject line.Your request to be remove will be processed within 24 hours. Please DO NOT Reply to this message if you wish to be removed From rem-conf Mon Jan 15 03:10:54 2001 From rem-conf-request@es.net Mon Jan 15 03:10:54 2001 Received: from list by mail1.es.net with local (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14I7PJ-0000XR-00; Mon, 15 Jan 2001 03:02:37 -0800 Received: from pd9504cb2.dip.t-dialin.net (server01) [217.80.76.178] by mail1.es.net with smtp (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14I7PE-0000Wy-00; Mon, 15 Jan 2001 03:02:33 -0800 From: To: Date: Mo, 15 Jan 2001 08:26:34 Message-Id: <187.827942.9100@server01> Subject: Fun Stuff Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailing-List: X-Loop: rem-conf@es.net Precedence: list Dear Friend: AS SEEN ON NATIONAL TV: ''Making over half million dollars every 4 to 5 months from your home for an investment of only $25 U.S. Dollars expense one time'' THANKS TO THE COMPUTER AGE AND THE INTERNET! =============================================== BE A MILLIONAIRE LIKE OTHERS WITHIN A YEAR !! Before you say ''Bull'' , please read the following. This is the letter you have been hearing about on the news lately. Due to the popularity of this letter on the internet, a national weekly news program recently devoted an entire show to the investigation of this program described below , to see if it really can make people money. The show also investigated whether or not the program was legal. Their findings proved once and for all that there are ''absolutely NO. Laws prohibiting the participation in the program and if people can follow the simple instructions, they are bound to make some mega bucks with only $25 out of pocket cost''. DUE TO THE RECENT INCREASE OF POPULARITY & RESPECT THIS PROGRAM HAS ATTAINED, IT IS CURRENTLY WORKING BETTER THAN EVER. This is what one had to say: ''Thanks to this profitable opportunity. I was approached many times before but each time I passed on it. I am so glad I finally joined just to see what one could expect in return for the minimal effort and money required. To my astonishment, I received total $ 610,470.00 in 21 weeks, with money still coming in''. Pam Hedland, Fort Lee, New Jersey. ------------------------------------------------------------------ ------- Here is another testimonial: ''This program has been around for a long time but I never believed in it. But one day when I received this again in the mail I decided to gamble my $25 on it. I followed the simple instructions and walaa ..... 3 weeks later the money started to come in. First month I only made $240.00 but the next 2 months after that I made a total of $290,000.00. So far, in the past 8 months by re-entering the program,I have made over $710,000.00 and I am playing it again. The key to success in this program is to follow the simple steps and NOT change anything .'' More testimonials later but first, ****** PRINT THIS NOW FOR YOUR FUTURE REFERENCE ******* $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ If you would like to make at least $500,000 every 4 to 5 months easily and comfortably, please read the following...THEN READ IT AGAIN and AGAIN !!! $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ FOLLOW THE SIMPLE INSTRUCTION BELOW AND YOUR FINANCIAL DREAMS WILL COME TRUE, GUARANTEED! INSTRUCTIONS: **** Order all 5 reports shown on the list below. **** For each report, send $5 CASH, THE NAME & NUMBER OF THE REPORT YOU ARE ORDERING and YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS to the person whose name appears ON THAT LIST next to the report. MAKE SURE YOUR RETURN ADDRESS IS ON YOUR ENVELOPE TOP LEFT CORNER in case of any mail problems. **** When you place your order, make sure you order each of the 5 reports. You will need all 5 reports so that you can save them on your computer and resell them. YOUR TOTAL COST $5 X 5 = $25.00. **** Within a few days you will receive, vie e-mail, each of the 5 reports from these 5 different individuals. Save them on your computer so they will be accessible for you to send to the 1,000's of people who will order them from you. Also make a floppy of these reports and keep it on your desk in case something happen to your computer. ****.IMPORTANT - DO NOT alter the names of the people who are listed next to each report, or their sequence on the list, in any way other than what is instructed below in step '' 1 through 6 '' or you will loose out on majority of your profits. Once you understand the way this works, you will also see how it does not work if you change it. Remember, this method has been tested, and if you alter, it will NOT work!!! People have tried to put their friends/relatives names on all five thinking they could get all the money. But it does not work this way. Believe us, we all have tried to be greedy and then nothing happened. So Do Not try to change anything other than what is instructed. Because if you do, it will not work for you. Remember, honesty reaps the reward!!! 1.. After you have ordered all 5 reports, take this advertisement and REMOVE the name & address of the person in REPORT # 5. This person has made it through the cycle and is no doubt counting their fortune. 2.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 4 down TO REPORT # 5. 3.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 3 down TO REPORT # 4. 4.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 2 down TO REPORT # 3. 5.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 1 down TO REPORT # 2 6.... Insert YOUR name & address in the REPORT # 1 Position. PLEASE MAKE SURE you copy every name & address ACCURATELY ! ========================================================= Take this entire letter, with the modified list of names, and save it on your computer. DO NOT MAKE ANY OTHER CHANGES. Save this on a disk as well just in case if you loose any data. To assist you with marketing your business on the internet, the 5 reports you purchase will provide you with invaluable marketing information which includes how to send bulk e-mails legally, where to find thousands of free classified ads and much more. There are 2 Primary methods to get this venture going: METHOD # 1 : BY SENDING BULK E-MAIL LEGALLY ============================================ let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and we will assume You and those involved send out only 5,000 e-mails each. Let's also assume that the mailing receive only a 0.2% response (the response could be much better but lets just say it is only 0.2% . Also many people will send out hundreds of thousands e-mails instead of only 5,000 each). Continuing with this example, you send out only 5,000 e-mails. With a 0.2% response, that is only 10 orders for report # 1. Those 10 people responded by sending out 5,000 e-mail each for a total of 50,000. Out of those 50,000 e-mails only 0.2% responded with orders. That's = 100 people responded and ordered Report # 2. Those 100 people mail out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 500,000 e-mails. The 0.2% response to that is 1000 orders for Report # 3. Those 1000 people send out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 5 million e-mails sent out. The 0.2% response to that is 10,000 orders for Report # 4. Those 10,000 people send out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 50,000,000 (50 million) e-mails. The 0.2% response to that is 100,000 orders for Report # 5. THAT'S 100,000 ORDERS TIMES $5 EACH = $500,000.00 (half million). Your total income in this example is: 1..... $50 + 2..... $500 + 3..... $5,000 + 4..... $50,000 + 5..... $500,000 ......... Grand Total = $555,550.00 NUMBERS DO NOT LIE. GET A PENCIL & PAPER AND FIGURE OUT THE WORST POSSIBLE RESPONSES AND NO MATTER HOW YOU CALCULATE IT, YOU WILL STILL MAKE A LOT OF MONEY ! ------------------------------------------------------------------ ---------- REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING ONLY 10 PEOPLE ORDERING OUT OF 5,000 YOU MAILED TO. Dare to think for a moment what would happen if everyone, or half or even one 4th of those people mailed 100,000 e-mails each or more? There are over 150 million people on the internet worldwide and counting. Believe me, many people will do just that, and more! METHOD # 2 : BY PLACING FREE ADS ON THE INTERNET =================================================== Advertising on the net is very very inexpensive and there are hundreds of FREE places to advertise. Placing a lot of free ads on the internet will easily get a larger response. We strongly suggest you start with Method # 1 and add METHOD # 2 as you go along. For every $5 you receive, all you must do is e-mail them the Report they ordered. That's it . Always provide same day service on all orders. This will guarantee that the e-mail they send out, with your name and address on it, will be prompt because they can not advertise until they receive the report. _____________________ AVAILABLE REPORTS_____________________ ORDER EACH REPORT BY ITS NUMBER & NAME ONLY. Notes: Always send $5 cash (U.S. CURRENCY) for each Report. Checks NOT accepted. Make sure the cash is concealed by wrapping it in at least 2 sheets of paper. On one of those sheets of paper, Write the NUMBER & the NAME of the Report you are ordering, YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS and your name and postal address. PLACE YOUR ORDER FOR THESE REPORTS NOW : ============================================== REPORT #1, "The Insider's Guide to Sending Bulk E-mail on the Internet" ORDER REPORT #1 FROM: J. Jennings Wittelsbacher Allee 115 60385 Frankfurt Germany (when possible send 10 German Mark bills) don't forget to provide a real e-mail address to receive the reports ============================================== REPORT #2 "The Insider's Guide to Advertising for Free on the Internet" ORDER REPORT #2 FROM: Brad KLutinoty 9404 Cameron Ridge Way #117 Indianapolis, In 46240 USA ============================================== REPORT #3 "The Secrets to Multilevel Marketing on the Internet" ORDER REPORT #3 FROM: John Lutheran P.O.Box 33555 Sandiego, Ca. 92163-3555 USA ============================================== REPORT #4 "How to become a Millionaire utilizing the Power of Multilevel Marketing and the Internet" ORDER REPORT #4 FROM: MichaelGreen p.o. box 326 Union Lake,Mi. 48387 USA ============================================== REPORT #5 "How to SEND 1,000,000 e-mails for FREE" ORDER REPORT #5 FROM: Trumpeter Productions 4105 Tujunga Ave.#6 Studio City, Ca. 91604 USA ============================================== There are currently more than 250,000,000 people online $$$$$$$$$ YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINES $$$$$$$$$$$ Follow these guidelines to guarantee your success: If you do not receive at least 10 orders for Report #1 within 2 weeks, continue sending e-mails until you do. After you have received 10 orders, 2 to 3 weeks after that you should receive 100 orders or more for REPORT # 2. If you did not, continue advertising or sending e-mails until you do. Once you have received 100 or more orders for Report # 2, YOU CAN RELAX, because the system is already working for you , and the cash will continue to roll in ! THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER : Every time your name is moved down on the list, you are placed in front of a different report. You can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS by watching which report people are ordering from you. IF YOU WANT TO GENERATE MORE INCOME SEND ANOTHER BATCH OF E-MAILS AND START THE WHOLE PROCESS AGAIN. There is NO LIMIT to the income you can generate from this business !!! ____________________________________________________ FOLLOWING IS A NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM: "You have just received information that can give you financial freedom for the rest of your life, with NO RISK and JUST A LITTLE BIT OF EFFORT. You can make more money in the next few weeks and months than you have ever imagined. Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED. Do Not change it in any way. It works exceedingly well as it is now. Remember to e-mail a copy of this exciting report after you have put your name and address in Report #1 and moved others to #2...........# 5 as instructed above. One of the people you send this to may send out 100,000 or more e-mails and your name will be on everyone of them. Remember though, the more you send out the more potential customers you will reach. So my friend, I have given you the ideas, information, materials and opportunity to become financially independent. IT IS UP TO YOU NOW ! ************** MORE TESTIMONIALS **************** '' My name is Mitchell. My wife , Jody and I live in Chicago. I am an accountant with a major U.S. Corporation and I make pretty good money. When I received this program I grumbled to Jody about receiving ''junk mail''. I made fun of the whole thing, spouting my knowledge of the population and percentages involved. I ''knew'' it wouldn't work. Jody totally ignored my supposed intelligence and few days later she jumped in with both feet. I made merciless fun of her, and was ready to lay the old ''I told you so'' on her when the thing didn't work. Well, the laugh was on me! Within 3 weeks she had received 50 responses. Within the next 45 days she had received a total of $ 147,200.00 all cash! I was shocked. I have joined Jody in her ''hobby''. Mitchell Wolf, M.D. , Chicago, Illinois ------------------------------------------------------------ '' Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my mind to participate in this plan. But conservative that I am, I decided that the initial investment was so little that there was just no way that I wouldn't get enough orders to at least get my money back. I was surprised when I found my medium size post office box crammed with orders. I made $319,210.00 in the first 12 weeks. The nice thing about this deal is that it does not matter where people live. There simply isn't a better investment with a faster return and so big''. Dan Sondstrom, Alberta, Canada ----------------------------------------------------------- '' I had received this program before. I deleted it, but later I wondered if I should have given it a try. Of course, I had no idea who to contact to get another copy, so I had to wait until I was e-mailed again by someone else.........11 months passed then it luckily came again...... I did not delete this one! I made more than $490,000 on my first try and all the money came within 22 weeks''. Susan De Suza, New York, N.Y. ---------------------------------------------------- '' It really is a great opportunity to make relatively easy money with little cost to you. I followed the simple instructions carefully and within 10 days the money started to come in. My first month I made $ 20, 560.00 and by the end of third month my total cash count was $ 362,840.00. Life is beautiful, Thanx to internet''. Fred Dellaca, Westport, New Zealand ------------------------------------------------------------ ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND GET STARTED ON YOUR ROAD TO FINANCIAL FREEDOM ! ======================================================= If you have any questions of the legality of this program, contact the Office of Associate Director for Marketing Practices, Federal Trade Commission, Bureau of Consumer Protection, Washington, D.C. //////////////////////////////////////////////// ONE TIME MAILING, NO NEED TO REMOVE ////////////////////////////////////////////// This message is sent in compliance of the proposed bill SECTION 301. per Section 301, Paragraph (a)(2)(C) of S. 1618. Further transmission to you by the sender of this e-mail may be stopped at no cost to you by sending a reply to : Sophie530@email.com with the word Remove in the subject line. This message is not intended for residents in the State of Washington, screening of addresses has been done to the best of our technical ability. -------- T H E E N D -------- From rem-conf Mon Jan 15 14:46:40 2001 From rem-conf-request@es.net Mon Jan 15 14:46:39 2001 Received: from list by mail1.es.net with local (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14IIDe-0002QC-00; Mon, 15 Jan 2001 14:35:18 -0800 Received: from mail.cox.smu.edu (amex.Cox.SMU.Edu) [129.119.81.9] (root) by mail1.es.net with esmtp (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14IIDc-0002Q2-00; Mon, 15 Jan 2001 14:35:16 -0800 Received: from gavishr.mail.cox.smu.edu (d-84-76.cox.smu.edu [129.119.84.76]) by amex.Cox.SMU.Edu (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f0FM0d020157; Mon, 15 Jan 2001 16:00:39 -0600 Message-Id: <4.3.0.20010115110753.00bbfa80@mail.cox.smu.edu> X-Sender: gavishb@mail.cox.smu.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3 Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 11:11:20 -0600 To: (Recipient list suppressed) From: Bezalel Gavish Subject: SMU announcement on Faculty Positions Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=====================_171718==_" X-Mailing-List: X-Loop: rem-conf@es.net Precedence: list --=====================_171718==_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Enclosed is an announcement on faculty positions at the ITOM department. I will appreciate it if you will bring it to the attention of interested candidates. 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--=====================_171718==_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Professor Bezalel Gavish Eugene J. and Ruth F. Constantin Distinguished Chair in Business Chairman of the Information Technology and Operations Management Department Edwin L. Cox School of Business Southern Methodist University P.O. Box 750333 Dallas, TX 75275-0333 E-mail: gavishb@mail.cox.smu.edu Tel: Office (214) 768-8258 FAX (214) 768-8812 Assistant (214) 768-8256 Home (214) 528-3584 --=====================_171718==_-- From rem-conf Mon Jan 15 17:36:23 2001 From rem-conf-request@es.net Mon Jan 15 17:36:22 2001 Received: from list by mail1.es.net with local (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14IKyt-0005Wr-00; Mon, 15 Jan 2001 17:32:15 -0800 Received: from (ms.samsung.com) [211.45.29.136] by mail1.es.net with esmtp (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14IKyr-0005Vd-00; Mon, 15 Jan 2001 17:32:14 -0800 Received: from bright ([203.241.48.20]) by ms.samsung.com (Netscape Messaging Server 4.15) with SMTP id G78ET900.44R for ; Tue, 16 Jan 2001 10:29:33 +0900 Message-ID: <00b801c07f5c$a57b1680$5b66d5a5@samsung.co.kr> From: chjkim@samsung.com To: Subject: mailing lists Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 10:35:45 +0900 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00B5_01C07FA8.154A5480" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 X-Mailing-List: X-Loop: rem-conf@es.net Precedence: list This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00B5_01C07FA8.154A5480 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ks_c_5601-1987" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGVsbG8sIEkgd2FudCB0byByZWNlaXZlIGdlbmVyYWwgZGlzY3Vzc2lvbiBvbiBydHAuDQo= ------=_NextPart_000_00B5_01C07FA8.154A5480 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ks_c_5601-1987" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 PCFET0NUWVBFIEhUTUwgUFVCTElDICItLy9XM0MvL0RURCBIVE1MIDQuMCBUcmFuc2l0aW9uYWwv L0VOIj4NCjxIVE1MPjxIRUFEPg0KPE1FVEEgaHR0cC1lcXVpdj1Db250ZW50LVR5cGUgY29udGVu dD0idGV4dC9odG1sOyBjaGFyc2V0PWtzX2NfNTYwMS0xOTg3Ij4NCjxNRVRBIGNvbnRlbnQ9Ik1T SFRNTCA1LjUwLjQxMzQuMTAwIiBuYW1lPUdFTkVSQVRPUj4NCjxTVFlMRT48L1NUWUxFPg0KPC9I RUFEPg0KPEJPRFkgYmdDb2xvcj0jZmZmZmZmPg0KPERJVj48Rk9OVCBzaXplPTI+SGVsbG8sIEkg d2FudCB0byByZWNlaXZlIGdlbmVyYWwgZGlzY3Vzc2lvbiBvbiANCnJ0cC48L0ZPTlQ+PC9ESVY+ PC9CT0RZPjwvSFRNTD4NCg== ------=_NextPart_000_00B5_01C07FA8.154A5480-- From rem-conf Tue Jan 16 00:14:47 2001 From rem-conf-request@es.net Tue Jan 16 00:14:46 2001 Received: from list by mail1.es.net with local (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14IRBs-0003on-00; Tue, 16 Jan 2001 00:10:04 -0800 Received: from mail.cs.tu-berlin.de [130.149.17.13] (root) by mail1.es.net with esmtp (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14IRBq-0003o6-00; Tue, 16 Jan 2001 00:10:02 -0800 Received: from VAIOStW2.cs.tu-berlin.de (root@presto.cs.tu-berlin.de [130.149.25.1]) by mail.cs.tu-berlin.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA18217; Tue, 16 Jan 2001 09:08:31 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20010116085627.02af9cd8@mail.cs.tu-berlin.de> X-Sender: stewe@mail.cs.tu-berlin.de X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 09:13:47 -0800 To: ph@w3.org, casner@acm.org From: Stephan Wenger Subject: Comments on draft-ietf-avt-rtp-mime-03.txt re H.263++ Video Cc: garysull@microsoft.com, wiegand@hhi.de, itu-adv-video@standard.pictel.com, rem-conf@es.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_22422752==_.ALT" X-Mailing-List: X-Loop: rem-conf@es.net Precedence: list --=====================_22422752==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Dear Steve, Philipp, All The Video Coding Experts Group (VCEG) of the ITU-T, formally known as Q.6 of SG 16 (and earlier known as Q.15/16) is in the process of standardizing a Profile/Level specification for H.263++. The process is almost finished with the final approval expected within two month. The draft which is out for the new single-step approval procedure of the ITU-T can be found under the following URL http://standard.pictel.com/ftp/video-site/0011_Gen/H263AnnexXforDetermination_d0.doc Your MIME draft contains codepoints in the H.263-2000 section that reflect an older draft with different content. We suggest that you incorporate the following changes in order to reflect the most up-to-date Annex X draft: - Increase the number of Profiles to 9, numbered 0 to 8 - Allow a [0..100] numbering space for the levels. Currently defined levels are 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70 Find below draft text which could be cut-and-past into your draft. A formal communication from VCEG to IETF/AVT with similar content will be transmitted through the official channels soon. Best regards Stephan -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4.2.7. Registration of MIME media type video/H263-2000 MIME media type name: video MIME subtype name: H263-2000 Required parameters: None Optional parameters: profile: H.263 profile number, in the range 0 through 8, spec- ifying the supported H.263 annexes/subparts. level: Level of bitstream operation, in the range 0 through 99, specifying the level of computational complexity of the decoding process. Published specification: RFC 2429 The profile and level specifications may be found in Annex X of the November, 2000 version of ITU Recommendation H.263, "Video coding for low bit rate communication". Note that the RTP payload format for H263-2000 is the same as for H263-1998, but additional annexes/subparts are specified along with the pro- files and levels. - --=====================_22422752==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Dear Steve, Philipp, All

The Video Coding Experts Group (VCEG) of the ITU-T, formally
known as Q.6 of SG 16 (and earlier known as Q.15/16) is in
the process of standardizing a Profile/Level specification for
H.263++.  The process is almost finished with the final
approval expected within two month.  The draft which is out
for the new single-step approval procedure of the ITU-T can
be found under the following URL
http://standard.pictel.com/ftp/video-site/0011_Gen/H263AnnexXforDetermination_d0.doc

Your MIME draft contains codepoints in the H.263-2000 section
that reflect an older draft with different content.  We suggest that
you incorporate the following changes in order to reflect the most
up-to-date Annex X draft:

- Increase the number of Profiles to 9, numbered 0 to 8
- Allow a [0..100] numbering space for the levels.  Currently
  defined levels are 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70

Find below draft text which could be cut-and-past into your draft.

A formal communication from VCEG to IETF/AVT with similar
content will be transmitted through the official channels soon.

Best regards

Stephan

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


4.2.7.  Registration of MIME media type video/H263-2000

     MIME media type name: video

     MIME subtype name: H263-2000

     Required parameters: None

     Optional parameters:
          profile: H.263 profile number, in the range 0 through 8, spec-
          ifying the supported H.263 annexes/subparts.

          level: Level of bitstream operation, in the range 0 through 99,
          specifying the level of computational complexity of the decoding process.

     Published specification: RFC 2429
          The profile and level specifications may be found in Annex X of the
          November, 2000 version of ITU Recommendation H.263, "Video
          coding for low bit rate communication".  Note that the RTP
          payload format for H263-2000 is the same as for H263-1998, but
          additional annexes/subparts are specified along with the pro-
          files and levels.






-
--=====================_22422752==_.ALT-- From rem-conf Tue Jan 16 03:33:24 2001 From rem-conf-request@es.net Tue Jan 16 03:33:23 2001 Received: from list by mail1.es.net with local (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14IUFv-00078d-00; Tue, 16 Jan 2001 03:26:27 -0800 Received: from eden.dei.uc.pt [193.137.203.230] by mail1.es.net with esmtp (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14IUFn-00078M-00; Tue, 16 Jan 2001 03:26:25 -0800 Received: from pan (pan.dei.uc.pt [10.2.0.27]) by eden.dei.uc.pt (8.11.1/8.11.1) with SMTP id f0GB2EU24117; Tue, 16 Jan 2001 11:02:15 GMT Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20010116110353.007b0e10@eden.dei.uc.pt> X-Sender: boavida@eden.dei.uc.pt X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 11:03:53 +0000 To: webmaster@ercim.org, office@ercim.org, muetze@wiwi.uni-marburg.de, sacj_production@cs.up.ac.za, sdelman@wkap.com, jorg@cs.virginia.edu, msj@microsoft.com, cecileh@total.emap.com, ole@cisco.com, helpdesk@cordis.lu, end2end-interest@ISI.EDU, tccc@ieee.org, int-serv@ISI.EDU, conf@colmar.colmar.uha.fr, rem-conf@es.net, qbone@internet2.edu, diffserv-interest@external.cisco.com From: Fernando Boavida Subject: QofIS'2001 International Workshop Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Mailing-List: X-Loop: rem-conf@es.net Precedence: list Dear Mr. Editor, please find below a short information about the QofIS2001 workshop which I believe is relevant to the content of your journal. If possible, I'd like to ask you to publish this announcement in the nearest issue of your journal and/or in the on-line Calendar of events ---- title: Quality of future Internet Services (QofIS'2001) start date: 24 September 2001 end date: 26 September 2001 submission: 16 April 2001 city: Coimbra country: Portugal URL: http://qofis2001.dei.uc.pt/ description: The workshop emphasis is on horizontal (end-to-end) as well as vertical (top-to-down) provision of quality of services, spanning all components of end systems and networks, with the aim of identifying solutions enabling feasible and coherent QoS provision. Sterring Committee: Michael Smirnov, Jon Crowcroft, Jim Roberts, Fernando Boavida publication: Proceedings will be published by Springer-Verlag in LNCS contact: qofis2000@dei.uc.pt or boavida@dei.uc.pt tel.: +351 239 790000 fax.: +351 239 701266 sponsors: Cisco Systems, Nokia, Siemens, IST Programme of the European Union, IPN, Critical Software, University of Coimbra Organizer: COST 263 ---- Many thanks in advance, Fernando Boavida (QofIS'2001 PC Chair) -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fernando Boavida (Associate Professor) Dept. Engenharia Informatica Tel.: + 351 239 790000 Universidade de Coimbra Fax.: + 351 239 701266 POLO II . 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From rem-conf Thu Jan 18 01:08:26 2001 From rem-conf-request@es.net Thu Jan 18 01:08:25 2001 Received: from list by mail1.es.net with local (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14JAul-0000dL-00; Thu, 18 Jan 2001 00:59:27 -0800 Received: from imo-r08.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.8] by mail1.es.net with esmtp (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14JAuk-0000cg-00; Thu, 18 Jan 2001 00:59:26 -0800 Received: from ydh86@netscape.net by imo-r08.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v29.5.) id 3.2.88e751 (16217) for ; Thu, 18 Jan 2001 03:58:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from netscape.com (aimmail11.aim.aol.com [205.188.144.203]) by air-in01.mx.aol.com (v77_r1.13) with ESMTP; Thu, 18 Jan 2001 03:58:16 1900 Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 03:57:55 -0500 From: ydh86@netscape.net To: rem-conf@es.net Subject: Re: end of a hint movie Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <0B94B679.0D0C44A6.000163B3@netscape.net> X-Mailer: Franklin Webmailer 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Mailing-List: X-Loop: rem-conf@es.net Precedence: list Hi, How the RTP (or RTCP or RTSP) indicates the end of the movie to the video player? I could not find any mechanism of it, the only indication seems that the streaming server stops sending RTP packets, but it does not neccessary mean the end of the movie? __________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Webmail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ From rem-conf Thu Jan 18 09:37:36 2001 From rem-conf-request@es.net Thu Jan 18 09:37:35 2001 Received: from list by mail1.es.net with local (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14JIk7-0006ca-00; Thu, 18 Jan 2001 09:20:59 -0800 Received: from prognet.com [205.219.198.1] by mail1.es.net with esmtp (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14JIk6-0006cQ-00; Thu, 18 Jan 2001 09:20:58 -0800 Received: from c600test.real.com ([172.23.106.160]) by prognet.com (8.9.2/8.9.0) with ESMTP id JAA27392; Thu, 18 Jan 2001 09:21:03 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20010118091111.027bdcc8@mail.real.com> X-Sender: jeffa@mail.real.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 09:21:21 -0800 To: ydh86@netscape.net, rem-conf@es.net, confctrl@ISI.EDU From: Jeff Ayars Subject: Re: end of a hint movie In-Reply-To: <0B94B679.0D0C44A6.000163B3@netscape.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Mailing-List: X-Loop: rem-conf@es.net Precedence: list At 03:57 AM 1/18/2001 -0500, ydh86@netscape.net wrote: >Hi, > >How the RTP (or RTCP or RTSP) indicates the end of the movie >to the video player? I could not find any mechanism of it, >the only indication seems that the streaming server stops >sending RTP packets, but it does not neccessary mean the end >of the movie? Good catch. If you've gotten this far either your a very good reader and thinker or you're actually implementing something. The answer as far as the standard is concerned today is that it doesn't say. There is not a specified method to inform the terminal of the end of the stream in RTSP. There are two methods used that I am aware of: RTSP Bye sent by the server, and strict adherence to the range specified in the SDP or PLAY. Both mechanisms need a timeout as the bye as well as the final bit of the media stream can be lost. Neither are particularly good and at the RTSP bake-off last summer we talked about adding an explicit method as we moved RTSP to Draft Standard. JEff From rem-conf Thu Jan 18 10:24:57 2001 From rem-conf-request@es.net Thu Jan 18 10:24:56 2001 Received: from list by mail1.es.net with local (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14JJdj-0007gV-00; Thu, 18 Jan 2001 10:18:27 -0800 Received: from mail-out2.apple.com [17.254.0.51] by mail1.es.net with esmtp (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14JJdi-0007gL-00; Thu, 18 Jan 2001 10:18:26 -0800 Received: from mailgate1.apple.com (A17-128-100-225.apple.com [17.128.100.225]) by mail-out2.apple.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA19576 for ; Thu, 18 Jan 2001 10:18:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from scv2.apple.com (scv2.apple.com) by mailgate1.apple.com (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.1.2) with ESMTP id ; Thu, 18 Jan 2001 10:18:24 -0800 Received: from [17.202.37.140] (il0203a-dhcp12.apple.com [17.202.37.140]) by scv2.apple.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA05582; Thu, 18 Jan 2001 10:18:23 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: kmarks@mail.apple.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <0056900015133158000002L082*@MHS> References: <0056900015133158000002L082*@MHS> Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 00:09:01 -0800 To: philippe.gentric@philips.com, kmarks@apple.com From: Kevin Marks Subject: Re: RTP profile draft Cc: rem-conf@es.net, 4on2andIP-sys@advent.ee.columbia.edu Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Mailing-List: X-Loop: rem-conf@es.net Precedence: list At 7:19 PM +0100 1/12/01, philippe.gentric@philips.com wrote: >kmarks@apple.com wrote: > >> At 5:09 PM +0100 1/11/01, philippe.gentric@philips.com wrote: >> >An internet draft for a RTP profile is available at: >> > > > >http://search.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-gentric-avt-profile-00.txt >> > >> >The purpose of this (quite short) draft is to >> >introduce 2 new bits in the RTP header >> >which are very useful for MPEG-4 >> >-which is my primary concern these days- >> >but are actually of "general" scope and >> >therefore could apply to many other media types. >> > >> >I would like to get feedback about it. >> >> The problem with defining the top 2 bits is that anything that adopts >> this interpretation is going to get misdirected by many existing >> payloads. RFC 1890 defines the dynamic payload range to begin at 96, >> which thus means dynamic payloads all have those 2 bits set already. >> However, the range between 35 and 95 is unassigned/reserved (MPEG is >> at 32 & 33 & the obsolete H263 packing at 34). >> > >I thought this issue about ranges was specific of the context of the >Audio Video Profile ? >Since this is a "separate profile" should these restrictions apply ? Ah. From your introduction and the contents of the draft that was not clear. In that case my objections can be more muted, as only applications that ignore the profile are going to get confused. > >> How about defining your bits the other way up, to use that unused >> range when they are off, and then restricting the range of the lower >> 5 bits to not collide with existing packings? > >Do I understand correctly you propose that the RAP and FS bit should be >the 2 LSbits of the 7 bits PT field ? No, I was proposing that you define the meaning of the 2 new bits inverted fashion - 1 meaning not set and 0 meaning the flag condition (see below) This would redefine your table this way 011: fragment 010: first fragment 010: fragment carrying RAP information 000: first fragment carrying RAP information 111: last fragment 110: full media frame that is not a RAP 101: last fragment carrying RAP information 100: full media frame that is a RAP >I though initialy that within the context of *A* profile >the resulting dynamic PT was going to be anything that >can be coded on the remaining PT >i.e. 5 remaining bits in our case i.e. [0-31] > >I understand you want to put restriction for this range ? Not for a separate profile; From your introduction I thought that you meant for this to apply to the RTP/AVP profile too. >(BTW I forgot to define the 3 letters >for this profile in my draft ;-( >assuming MPG would do the job: > >SDP would contain: > >m=application 2565 RTP/MPG 12 >a=rtpmap:12 MP4-ES/1000 > >(as specified by RFC 2327) > >so I dont see how a confusion can occur ? In that case it can't - if you explain this clearly in the document, and explicitly exclude the RTP/AVP profile all will be fine. > > >> If your low 5 bits are constrained to be one of the unassigned >> values>15 (18-24) you are far less likely to accidentally collide >> with another packing type. Most applications start assigning dynamic >> values at 96 and go up, so this will also reduce the likelihood of >> you being mistaken about the value. >> >> If the bits are overloaded like this, what number do you put in the m >> line of the sdp file to signal this payload? If you invert the >> meanings as I suggest, you can use anything between 114 and 120, and >> not confuse anyone. > >Hum there I am not sure I follow you because >if I want the find the range of PT that I shall restrict: > >I compute the smallest PT value to be 9 >because it is 01001 >which for some receiver that does not ignore the last 2 bits of the PT >field it would be 0100100 (or 3 more) i.e. 36 or more > >And I compute the largest value to be 23 >because it is 10111 >which for some receiver that does not ignore the last 2 bits of the PT >field it would be 1011111 (or 3 less) i.e. 95 or less > >Conclusion: I would need to: >- define the RAP and FS bits as the 2 left most 7 bits of (old) PT >- restrict the 5 bits (new ) PT dynamic payload type to the [9-23] range >- so that when interpreted as a 7 bits (old) PT the result is in the >range [36-95] i.e. unassigned range > >Did I got it right ? No, > >BTW the problem I have then is that I cannot make a SDP describing more >than >15 streams, >i.e. half my original capability of 32... > >I have a question for SDP experts about that: > >Is it allowed to reuse dynamically allocated payload types in the same >SDP file ? > >for example assume I want to do: > >m=application 2565 RTP/MPG 12 >a=rtpmap:12 MP4-ES/1000 > >m=application 2566 RTP/MPG 12 >a=rtpmap:12 MP4-ES/1000 > >m=application 2567 RTP/MPG 12 >a=rtpmap:12 MP4-ES/1000 > >(For example this could be 3 scalable mpeg-4 video stream (same object)) > >Is that "legal" and if not why ? We frequently do this in QT eg: m=video 6670 RTP/AVP 99 a=rtpmap:99 X-QT/600 a=rtpmap:100 x-SorensonVideo a=rtpmap:101 H263-1998 m=audio 16886 RTP/AVP 99 a=rtpmap:99 X-QT/600 a=rtpmap:102 X-QDM m=video 6680 RTP/AVP 99 a=rtpmap:99 X-QT/600 Your example is only illegal because of the odd port numbers. Our implementation would even let you do something like this: m=video 6670 RTP/AVP 99 a=rtpmap:99 X-QT/600 m=audio 16886 RTP/AVP 99 a=rtpmap:99 X-QDM m=video 6680 RTP/AVP 99 a=rtpmap:99 H263-1998 but I would argue that this is a bad idea. RFC 2327 is not explicit about whether the rtpmap values are unique per-stream (as in our implementation) or per session. Consequently, using values that have other meanings could confuse some implementations. Inverting your bits as I suggest would prevent this potential collision, as in your case you would specify: m=application 2566 RTP/MPG 108 a=rtpmap:108 MP4-ES/1000 Whether this is a serious issue or not depends on how people have interpreted RFC 2327 From rem-conf Thu Jan 18 13:49:45 2001 From rem-conf-request@es.net Thu Jan 18 13:49:45 2001 Received: from list by mail1.es.net with local (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14JMoF-0002Ri-00; Thu, 18 Jan 2001 13:41:31 -0800 Received: from relay.eecs.berkeley.edu [169.229.34.228] by mail1.es.net with esmtp (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14JMoD-0002RX-00; Thu, 18 Jan 2001 13:41:29 -0800 Received: from bmrc.berkeley.edu (ix.CS.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.36.141]) by relay.EECS.Berkeley.EDU (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA13145; Thu, 18 Jan 2001 13:41:26 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3A676226.EFE5B610@bmrc.berkeley.edu> Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 13:37:43 -0800 From: Florissa Colina X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: 1/24 The How and What and Why of Keynote Systems Streaming Media Measurements -- Chris Overton, Keynote Systems, Inc. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bcc: To: rem-conf@es.net X-Mailing-List: X-Loop: rem-conf@es.net Precedence: list Berkeley Multimedia, Graphics and Interfaces Seminar The How and What and Why of Keynote Systems Streaming Media Measurements Wednesday January 24, 2001, 1:10-2:30 p.m. PDT Fujitsu Seminar Room (405 Soda Hall) Chris Overton Keynote Systems, Inc. This talk by the main architect of Keynote's streaming metrics will introduce how several factors have created a need to estimate the quality of media streamed over the Internet. Basic strategies of audio and video codecs will be reviewed, and the encoding/network transmission/rendering process will be discussed in the context of important network protocols. We will emphasize how lossy UDP-based transmission and lossy encoding combine to introduce uncertainty both in a stream and in any reasonably calculable estimate of its quality. We will then present metrics Keynote has built to encapsulate meaningful components that relate to end-user experience, while attempting to isolate behavior of interest to specific parties. Finally, we will discuss merits of several types of industry offerings, characterize streaming performance available today, and indicate how this performance is improving. --------------- The seminar is broadcast live on the Internet Mbone and as a Real Networks G2 broadcast. You can connect to the live RealNetworks broadcast at: http://bmrc.berkeley.edu/bibs/cs298-5 You can also directly put in this url into the Real Player: rtsp://media2.bmrc.berkeley.edu/encoder/cs298-5.rm To do so you will need to have the "Real Player G2" installed, which is available from: http://www.real.com/products/player/downloadrealplayer.html To tune into the Internet MBone broadcast, look for the announcement in your MBone session directory program ('sdr'). If you are not receiving the announcement you may be able to receive the session by manually configuring the client programs ('vic', and 'vat') with the session addresses: medium bit rate video: 233.0.25.129/22334 audio: 233.0.25.2/22446 You can get further information about this seminar, and access to replays of previous seminars at the MIG Seminar web page: http://media2.bmrc.berkeley.edu/bibs/archive.cfm Sponsored by the Berkeley Multimedia Research Center From rem-conf Thu Jan 18 22:57:33 2001 From rem-conf-request@es.net Thu Jan 18 22:57:33 2001 Received: from list by mail1.es.net with local (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14JVLN-0000Vd-00; Thu, 18 Jan 2001 22:48:17 -0800 Received: from gw-nl4.philips.com [212.153.190.6] by mail1.es.net with esmtp (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14JVLL-0000VT-00; Thu, 18 Jan 2001 22:48:16 -0800 Received: from smtprelay-nl1.philips.com (localhost.philips.com [127.0.0.1]) by gw-nl4.philips.com with ESMTP id HAA22509; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 07:48:12 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from philippe.gentric@philips.com) From: philippe.gentric@philips.com Received: from smtprelay-eur1.philips.com(130.139.36.3) by gw-nl4.philips.com via mwrap (4.0a) id xma022504; Fri, 19 Jan 01 07:48:12 +0100 Received: from notessmtp-nl1.philips.com (notessmtp-nl1.philips.com [130.139.36.10]) by smtprelay-nl1.philips.com (8.9.3/8.8.5-1.2.2m-19990317) with ESMTP id HAA11174; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 07:48:12 +0100 (MET) Received: from EMLMS01.DIAMOND.PHILIPS.COM (emlms01sv1.diamond.philips.com [130.143.165.213]) by notessmtp-nl1.philips.com (8.9.3/8.8.5-1.2.2m-19990317) with ESMTP id HAA27279; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 07:48:11 +0100 (MET) Received: by EMLMS01.DIAMOND.PHILIPS.COM (Soft-Switch LMS 4.0) with snapi via EMEA1 id 0056900015268786; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 07:58:36 +0100 To: Cc: , <4on2andIP-sys@advent.ee.columbia.edu> Subject: Re: RTP profile draft Message-ID: <0056900015268786000002L062*@MHS> Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 07:58:36 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; name="MEMO 01/19/01 07:49:40" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline X-Mailing-List: X-Loop: rem-conf@es.net Precedence: list kmarks@apple.com wrote: > At 7:19 PM +0100 1/12/01, philippe.gentric@philips.com wrote: > >kmarks@apple.com wrote: > > > >> At 5:09 PM +0100 1/11/01, philippe.gentric@philips.com wrote: > >> >An internet draft for a RTP profile is available at: > >> > > > > >http://search.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-gentric-avt-profil= e-00.txt > >> > > >> >The purpose of this (quite short) draft is to > >> >introduce 2 new bits in the RTP header > >> >which are very useful for MPEG-4 > >> >-which is my primary concern these days- > >> >but are actually of "general" scope and > >> >therefore could apply to many other media types. > >> > > >> >I would like to get feedback about it. > >> > >> The problem with defining the top 2 bits is that anything that ad= opts > >> this interpretation is going to get misdirected by many existing > >> payloads. RFC 1890 defines the dynamic payload range to begin at = 96, > >> which thus means dynamic payloads all have those 2 bits set alrea= dy. > >> However, the range between 35 and 95 is unassigned/reserved (MPEG= is > >> at 32 & 33 & the obsolete H263 packing at 34). > >> > > > >I thought this issue about ranges was specific of the context of the= > >Audio Video Profile ? > >Since this is a "separate profile" should these restrictions apply ?= > > Ah. From your introduction and the contents of the draft that was not= > clear. In that case my objections can be more muted, as only > applications that ignore the profile are going to get confused. > > I had a discussion with a Cisco person and we may have to abandon this profile idea anyway because of header compression. it seems that if a bit changes in the 7 of the PT field that packet header would not get compressed, nor the next one. That would mean that for fragmented streams header compression would not work (unless we make yet another RFC for a new header compres= sion ;-) Can anyone confirm ? Because while these 2 new bits are nice they are definitely a long way from balancing with loosing header compression > > > >BTW the problem I have then is that I cannot make a SDP describing m= ore > >than > >15 streams, > >i.e. half my original capability of 32... > > > >I have a question for SDP experts about that: > > > >Is it allowed to reuse dynamically allocated payload types in the sa= me > >SDP file ? > > > >for example assume I want to do: > > > >m=3Dapplication 2565 RTP/MPG 12 > >a=3Drtpmap:12 MP4-ES/1000 > > > >m=3Dapplication 2566 RTP/MPG 12 > >a=3Drtpmap:12 MP4-ES/1000 > > > >m=3Dapplication 2567 RTP/MPG 12 > >a=3Drtpmap:12 MP4-ES/1000 > > > >(For example this could be 3 scalable mpeg-4 video stream (same obje= ct)) > > > >Is that "legal" and if not why ? > > We frequently do this in QT eg: > > m=3Dvideo 6670 RTP/AVP 99 > a=3Drtpmap:99 X-QT/600 > a=3Drtpmap:100 x-SorensonVideo > a=3Drtpmap:101 H263-1998 > > m=3Daudio 16886 RTP/AVP 99 > a=3Drtpmap:99 X-QT/600 > a=3Drtpmap:102 X-QDM > > m=3Dvideo 6680 RTP/AVP 99 > a=3Drtpmap:99 X-QT/600 > > Your example is only illegal because of the odd port numbers. Our > implementation would even let you do something like this: > > m=3Dvideo 6670 RTP/AVP 99 > a=3Drtpmap:99 X-QT/600 > > m=3Daudio 16886 RTP/AVP 99 > a=3Drtpmap:99 X-QDM > > m=3Dvideo 6680 RTP/AVP 99 > a=3Drtpmap:99 H263-1998 > > but I would argue that this is a bad idea. RFC 2327 is not explicit > about whether the rtpmap values are unique per-stream (as in our > implementation) or per session. Consequently, using values that have > other meanings could confuse some implementations. Inverting your > bits as I suggest would prevent this potential collision, as in your > case you would specify: > thanks for this info the problem with MPEG-4 is that while product in the short to mid term will use a few streams the system spec allows to make real fancy 3D scenes and/or with multiple scalable stream and then the number of streams per "scene" would get large, so this is OK Regards, -- Philippe Gentric Software Architect PHILIPS DIGITAL NETWORKS Broadcast & Internet Delivery Solutions Laboratoires d'Electronique Philips B.P. 15 - 22, Av. Descartes 94453 Limeil-Brevannes Cedex France Phone : 33 (0)1 45 10 68 12 Fax : 33 (0)1 45 10 69 60 philippe.gentric@philips.com = From rem-conf Fri Jan 19 01:44:11 2001 From rem-conf-request@es.net Fri Jan 19 01:44:11 2001 Received: from list by mail1.es.net with local (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14JY0p-0002kc-00; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 01:39:15 -0800 Received: from gwsmtp.thomson-csf.com (gw-smtp.thomson-csf.com) [195.101.39.226] by mail1.es.net with esmtp (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14JY0k-0002j7-00; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 01:39:11 -0800 Received: from thomplex.thomson-csf.com (200.3.2.2) by gw-smtp.thomson-csf.com (NPlex 5.1.053) id 3A67FD1F00002AB2 for rem-conf@es.net; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 10:39:22 +0100 Received: from thomplex.thomson-csf.com (200.3.2.2) by thomplex.thomson-csf.com (NPlex 5.1.053) id 3A640F6B0004AEBD for rem-conf@es.net; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 10:37:58 +0100 Received: from 178.1.4.1 by thomplex.thomson-csf.com (InterScan E-Mail VirusWall NT); Fri, 19 Jan 2001 10:36:50 +0100 (Paris, Madrid) X-Internal-ID: 3A62E37D00003A95 Received: from minos.snmrennes.thomcast.thomson-csf.com (178.3.1.10) by cnfplex.thomcast.thomson-csf.com (NPlex 2.0.124) for rem-conf@es.net; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 10:36:59 +0100 Received: from thomcast.thomson-csf.com ([178.3.1.89]) by minos.snmrennes.thomcast.thomson-csf.com (Netscape Messaging Server 3.62) with ESMTP id 75; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 10:30:37 +0100 Message-ID: <3A681883.A9B7A58A@thomcast.thomson-csf.com> Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 10:35:48 +0000 From: "Marc Le Naour" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jeff Ayars CC: ydh86@netscape.net, rem-conf@es.net, confctrl@ISI.EDU Subject: Re: end of a hint movie and RTCP exchanges References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010118091111.027bdcc8@mail.real.com> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------8BEFE076F6E992051FB51F0E" X-Mailing-List: X-Loop: rem-conf@es.net Precedence: list This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------8BEFE076F6E992051FB51F0E Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Hi, First, do you talk about RTSP Bye rather than RTCP Bye ? I know what is RTCP BYE packet, but i didn't see any reference about RTSP Bye. Second i've got one question (be easy, i'm novice in this domain) : if you are using RTP/RTCP exchange methods, and if you are streaming data over TCP (RTP/AVP/TCP) with RTSP interleaved mode to protect some data, is it necessary to monitors (server) the receivers RR or BYE packets ? i mean the RR is not necessary because of the TCP connection and the BYE packet from client because of the TEARDOWN RTSP message, isn't it ? Marc Jeff Ayars wrote: > At 03:57 AM 1/18/2001 -0500, ydh86@netscape.net wrote: > >Hi, > > > >How the RTP (or RTCP or RTSP) indicates the end of the movie > >to the video player? I could not find any mechanism of it, > >the only indication seems that the streaming server stops > >sending RTP packets, but it does not neccessary mean the end > >of the movie? > > Good catch. If you've gotten this far either your a very good reader and > thinker or you're actually implementing something. The answer as far as > the standard is concerned today is that it doesn't say. There is not a > specified method to inform the terminal of the end of the stream in > RTSP. There are two methods used that I am aware of: RTSP Bye sent by the > server, and strict adherence to the range specified in the SDP or > PLAY. Both mechanisms need a timeout as the bye as well as the final bit > of the media stream can be lost. Neither are particularly good and at the > RTSP bake-off last summer we talked about adding an explicit method as we > moved RTSP to Draft Standard. > > JEff --------------8BEFE076F6E992051FB51F0E Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="marc.lenaour.vcf" Content-Description: Card for Marc Le Naour Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="marc.lenaour.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit begin:vcard n:Le Naour;Marc tel;cell:06.63.59.32.38 tel;work:02.99.22.76.32 x-mozilla-html:TRUE org:SII/THALES Broadcast Multimedia;Stream Server Department version:2.1 email;internet:Marc.Lenaour@Thomcast.thomson-csf.com title:Software & Telecom Engineer adr;quoted-printable:;;40, rue de Bray=0D=0ACesson-Sevigne=0D=0A35510 Rennes;Cesson-Sévigné;;;France fn:Marc Le Naour end:vcard --------------8BEFE076F6E992051FB51F0E-- From rem-conf Fri Jan 19 09:10:39 2001 From rem-conf-request@es.net Fri Jan 19 09:10:38 2001 Received: from list by mail1.es.net with local (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14JexE-0007RH-00; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 09:04:00 -0800 Received: from gw-us4.philips.com [63.114.235.90] by mail1.es.net with esmtp (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14JexC-0007R7-00; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 09:03:58 -0800 Received: from smtprelay-us2.philips.com (localhost.philips.com [127.0.0.1]) by gw-us4.philips.com with ESMTP id LAA18698 for ; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 11:03:57 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from quiohn.li@philips.com) From: quiohn.li@philips.com Received: from smtprelay-nam2.philips.com(167.81.233.16) by gw-us4.philips.com via mwrap (4.0a) id xma018696; Fri, 19 Jan 01 11:03:57 -0600 Received: from AMLMS01.DIAMOND.PHILIPS.COM (amlms01sv1.diamond.philips.com [161.88.79.213]) by smtprelay-us2.philips.com (8.9.3/8.8.5-1.2.2m-19990317) with ESMTP id LAA27903 for ; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 11:03:56 -0600 (CST) Received: by AMLMS01.DIAMOND.PHILIPS.COM (Soft-Switch LMS 4.0) with snapi via AMEC id 0056910009814438; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 11:05:46 -0600 To: Subject: Quicktime and Realsystem Message-ID: <0056910009814438000002L182*@MHS> Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 11:05:46 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; name="MEMO 01/19/01 11:04:21" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline X-Mailing-List: X-Loop: rem-conf@es.net Precedence: list Are there any publicly available docs that explain the Quicktime standa= rds and Realsystem standards. I am specifically interested in what are = their standards procedures or formats to hint a media stream. Your help= is sincerely appreciated. _____________________________________ Qiong Li Video Communications Philips Research USA 345 Scarborough Road Briarcliff Manor, NY 10510-2099 Tel:(914)945-6408 Fax:(914)945-6580 email: quiohn.li@philips.com = From rem-conf Fri Jan 19 09:53:35 2001 From rem-conf-request@es.net Fri Jan 19 09:53:34 2001 Received: from list by mail1.es.net with local (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14JfcK-0000m9-00; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 09:46:28 -0800 Received: from (ns2.packetvideo.com) [63.214.191.68] by mail1.es.net with esmtp (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14JfcJ-0000jL-00; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 09:46:27 -0800 Received: from misty.packetvideo.com ([63.214.191.76]) by ns2.packetvideo.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA56240; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 09:44:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from neff@PacketVideo.com) Received: by misty.packetvideo.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 09:39:55 -0800 Message-ID: <72660A24B978D411BB8A00B0D03DFE011B5719@misty.packetvideo.com> From: Ralph Neff To: "'quiohn.li@philips.com'" Cc: rem-conf@es.net Subject: RE: Quicktime and Realsystem Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 09:39:54 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Mailing-List: X-Loop: rem-conf@es.net Precedence: list Dear Qiong, The QuickTime specs are on Apple's developer site. A good starting point is: http://developer.apple.com/techpubs/quicktime/quicktime.html There's a PDF version of the file format spec (last updated June 2000) which you should find useful. -Ralph Ralph Neff * PacketVideo * www.pv.com neff@pv.com * phone: 858-731-5408 * fax: 858-731-5311 -----Original Message----- From: quiohn.li@philips.com [mailto:quiohn.li@philips.com] Sent: Friday, January 19, 2001 9:06 AM To: rem-conf@es.net Subject: Quicktime and Realsystem Are there any publicly available docs that explain the Quicktime standards and Realsystem standards. I am specifically interested in what are their standards procedures or formats to hint a media stream. Your help is sincerely appreciated. _____________________________________ Qiong Li Video Communications Philips Research USA 345 Scarborough Road Briarcliff Manor, NY 10510-2099 Tel:(914)945-6408 Fax:(914)945-6580 email: quiohn.li@philips.com From rem-conf Fri Jan 19 10:57:36 2001 From rem-conf-request@es.net Fri Jan 19 10:57:36 2001 Received: from list by mail1.es.net with local (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14Jge7-000269-00; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 10:52:23 -0800 Received: from (beoracle.) [216.237.145.111] by mail1.es.net with smtp (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14Jge5-00025z-00; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 10:52:21 -0800 Received: from unknown by beoracle. (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id KAA16892; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 10:48:12 -0800 From: To: rem-conf@es.net Subject: Toner Cartridges for your Printers... Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 14:01:46 Message-Id: <189.24101.742016@unknown> Reply-To: dprint2000@aol.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" X-Mailing-List: X-Loop: rem-conf@es.net Precedence: list

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 From rem-conf Fri Jan 19 13:03:43 2001 From rem-conf-request@es.net Fri Jan 19 13:03:42 2001 Received: from list by mail1.es.net with local (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14JibE-0004LX-00; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 12:57:32 -0800 Received: from smtp3.libero.it [193.70.192.53] by mail1.es.net with esmtp (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14JibC-0004LN-00; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 12:57:30 -0800 Received: from [151.15.250.254] (151.15.250.254) by smtp3.libero.it (5.5.015.5) id 3A546BEB00A4B38B for rem-conf@es.net; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 21:56:28 +0100 Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 21:56:28 +0100 (added by postmaster@iol.it) Message-ID: <3A546BEB00A4B38B@smtp3.libero.it> (added by postmaster@iol.it) From: Euro Computer Group To: Subject: Offerta X-Mailing-List: X-Loop: rem-conf@es.net Precedence: list From rem-conf Fri Jan 19 13:43:30 2001 From rem-conf-request@es.net Fri Jan 19 13:43:30 2001 Received: from list by mail1.es.net with local (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14JjEJ-0005Se-00; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 13:37:55 -0800 Received: from mail-out2.apple.com [17.254.0.51] by mail1.es.net with esmtp (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14JjEH-0005SU-00; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 13:37:53 -0800 Received: from mailgate2.apple.com (A17-129-100-225.apple.com [17.129.100.225]) by mail-out2.apple.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA05140 for ; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 13:37:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from scv3.apple.com (scv3.apple.com) by mailgate2.apple.com (Content Technologies SMTPRS 4.2.1) with ESMTP id ; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 13:37:47 -0800 Received: from [17.202.37.140] (il0203a-dhcp12.apple.com [17.202.37.140]) by scv3.apple.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA05479; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 13:37:46 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: kmarks@mail.apple.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <0056910009814438000002L182*@MHS> References: <0056910009814438000002L182*@MHS> Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 13:34:23 -0800 To: quiohn.li@philips.com, rem-conf@es.net From: Kevin Marks Subject: Re: Quicktime and Realsystem Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Mailing-List: X-Loop: rem-conf@es.net Precedence: list At 11:05 AM -0600 1/19/01, quiohn.li@philips.com wrote: >Are there any publicly available docs that explain the Quicktime >standards and Realsystem standards. I am specifically interested in >what are their standards procedures or formats to hint a media >stream. Your help is sincerely appreciated. the hint track format is explained here http://developer.apple.com/techpubs/quicktime/qtdevdocs/REF/Streaming.29.htm#pgfId=19901 The QuickTime packing type is explained here: http://devworld.apple.com/quicktime/icefloe/dispatch026.html To Hint a movie from your program, you call a Movie Export component (assuming you are running on Mac or Windows and have QT installed) From rem-conf Fri Jan 19 15:20:42 2001 From rem-conf-request@es.net Fri Jan 19 15:20:41 2001 Received: from list by mail1.es.net with local (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14JkiJ-00076F-00; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 15:12:59 -0800 Received: from tog-wakko2.prognet.com (soba.prognet.com) [207.188.29.249] by mail1.es.net with esmtp (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14JkiH-000765-00; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 15:12:57 -0800 Received: from localhost (ghori@localhost) by soba.prognet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA00477; Fri, 19 Jan 2001 15:12:16 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: soba.prognet.com: ghori owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 15:12:16 -0800 (PST) From: Go Hori X-Sender: ghori@soba.prognet.com To: Marc Le Naour cc: Jeff Ayars , ydh86@netscape.net, rem-conf@es.net, confctrl@ISI.EDU Subject: Re: end of a hint movie and RTCP exchanges In-Reply-To: <3A681883.A9B7A58A@thomcast.thomson-csf.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Mailing-List: X-Loop: rem-conf@es.net Precedence: list As far as RTSP msg goes, there is only one way to terminate the session. It is TEARDOWN from a client. A client can figure out when to send out TEARDOWN by keeping track of Range. There is RTCP Bye that a server sends. So, client can initiate the TEARDOWN upon a reception of RTCP Bye as well. RTP over TCP interleaved: It is up to an application to monitor RR or BYE, but you should send them because it is part of the spec and somebody might be expecting them even in the case of RTP over TCP interleaved. Go On Fri, 19 Jan 2001, Marc Le Naour wrote: > Hi, > > First, do you talk about RTSP Bye rather than RTCP Bye ? I know what is RTCP > BYE packet, but i didn't see any reference about RTSP Bye. > > Second i've got one question (be easy, i'm novice in this domain) : if you are > using RTP/RTCP exchange methods, and if you are streaming data over TCP > (RTP/AVP/TCP) with RTSP interleaved mode to protect some data, is it necessary > to monitors (server) the receivers RR or BYE packets ? i mean the RR is not > necessary because of the TCP connection and the BYE packet from client because > of the TEARDOWN RTSP message, isn't it ? > > Marc > > > > Jeff Ayars wrote: > > > At 03:57 AM 1/18/2001 -0500, ydh86@netscape.net wrote: > > >Hi, > > > > > >How the RTP (or RTCP or RTSP) indicates the end of the movie > > >to the video player? I could not find any mechanism of it, > > >the only indication seems that the streaming server stops > > >sending RTP packets, but it does not neccessary mean the end > > >of the movie? > > > > Good catch. If you've gotten this far either your a very good reader and > > thinker or you're actually implementing something. The answer as far as > > the standard is concerned today is that it doesn't say. There is not a > > specified method to inform the terminal of the end of the stream in > > RTSP. There are two methods used that I am aware of: RTSP Bye sent by the > > server, and strict adherence to the range specified in the SDP or > > PLAY. Both mechanisms need a timeout as the bye as well as the final bit > > of the media stream can be lost. Neither are particularly good and at the > > RTSP bake-off last summer we talked about adding an explicit method as we > > moved RTSP to Draft Standard. > > > > JEff > From rem-conf Sat Jan 20 07:17:10 2001 From rem-conf-request@es.net Sat Jan 20 07:17:09 2001 Received: from list by mail1.es.net with local (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14JzcD-00010c-00; Sat, 20 Jan 2001 07:07:41 -0800 Received: from smtp2.libero.it [193.70.192.52] by mail1.es.net with esmtp (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14JzcC-00010S-00; Sat, 20 Jan 2001 07:07:40 -0800 Received: from [151.15.248.184] (151.15.248.184) by smtp2.libero.it (5.5.015.5) id 3A5365A600B6C531 for rem-conf@es.net; Sat, 20 Jan 2001 16:06:38 +0100 Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2001 16:06:38 +0100 (added by postmaster@iol.it) Message-ID: <3A5365A600B6C531@smtp2.libero.it> (added by postmaster@iol.it) From: Euro Computer Group To: Subject: Offerta del 22.01.2001 EuroComputer Group Srl Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: Quoted-Printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailing-List: X-Loop: rem-conf@es.net Precedence: list EUROCOMPUTER GROUP SRL Via Matteotti 1 18039 Ventimiglia ( Imperia) Italia P.Iva 01279760084 Telefono per ordini : 0039 0184 230131 Fax per ordini : 0039 0184 232824 E-mail ordini : ORDINIEUROCOMPUTER@LIBERO.IT OFFERTA SETTIMANA 22.01.2001 CPU Pentium III 866/133 Mhz Lire 409.600 CPU Celeron 700 box Lire 174.050 CPU Celeron 733 box Lire 219.500 Hard Disk Samsung 10.2 Gb 5400 Rpm Lire 174.050 Hard Disk Samsung 20.4 Gb 5400 Rpm Lire 184.080 Hard Disk Seagate 20.4 Gb 7200 Rpm Lire 218.300 Hard Disk Quantum 40 Gb 7200 Rpm Lire 259.600 Memorie M-Tec 64 Mb Pc 133 Lire 43.950 Memoria M-Tec 128 Mb Pc 133 Lire 82.300 Memoria M-Tec 256 Mb Pc 133 Lire 175.250 I prezzi si intendono Iva esclusa. Garanzia casa madre. Spese di spedizione da un minimo di Lire 20.000 ad=20 un massimo di Lire 35.000 tramite corriere TNT Traco. Non abbiamo listini stratosferici. Inviamo questa e-mail nel quale si indicatono solo i prodotti che avremo in magazzino ogni lunedi tramite spedizione della nostra casa madre in Germania. Siamo una societ=E0 Italiana affiliata ad una Tedesca che =E8=20 concessionaria diretta per i seguenti marchi: Intel, AMD. Samsung, Seagate, Quantum, ASUS, Soltek, ATI, Matrox, M-Tec, LG, pertanto la garanzia dei prodotti e quella ufficiale con sostituzione immediata presso i nostri magazzini di Ventimiglia. Sono finite le inutili attese per autorizzazioni ai resi , ma semplicemen= te indicando il codice a barre del prodotto risultato difettoso. Qualsiasi nostro prodotto =E8 etichettato tramite codice a barre , attestante l'originalit=E0 del prodotto. Ci scusiamo per non aver potuto rispondere alle richieste di listino tramite e-mail. Inoltre comunichiamo a tutti quelli che hanno fatto richiesta di essere cancellati dalla nostra lista , che stiamo provvedendo con la massima celerit=E0. E-mail per richiesta immediata cancellazione: STOPMAILEUROCOMPUTER@LIBERO.IT Con l'occasione Vi aguriamo un buon lavoro. La Direzione From rem-conf Mon Jan 22 04:53:52 2001 From rem-conf-request@es.net Mon Jan 22 04:53:51 2001 Received: from list by mail1.es.net with local (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14KgFS-0005oN-00; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 04:39:02 -0800 Received: from gamma.spinxs.com [216.213.56.30] by mail1.es.net with esmtp (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14KgFM-0005nu-00; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 04:38:56 -0800 Received: from desktop (A030-0579.MIAM.splitrock.net [63.253.183.71]) by gamma.spinxs.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA30849; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 07:33:35 -0500 Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 07:33:35 -0500 From: gw21@prodigy.com Message-Id: <200101221233.HAA30849@gamma.spinxs.com> To: gw21@prodigy.com Subject: AS SEEN ON NATIONAL TELEVISION X-Mailing-List: X-Loop: rem-conf@es.net Precedence: list Dear Friend, You can earn $50,000 or more in next the 90 days sending e- mail. Seem impossible? Read on for details; is there a catch; NO, there is no catch, just send your emails and be on your way to financial freedom. "AS SEEN ON NATIONAL TELEVISION" Thank you for your time and Interest. This is the letter you've been reading about in the news lately. Due to the popularity of this letter on the Internet, a major nightly news program recently devoted an entire show to the investigation of the program described below to see, if it really can make people money. The show also investigated whether or not the program was legal. Their findings proved once and for all that there are, absolutely no laws prohibiting the participation in the program. This has helped to show people that this is a simple, harmless and fun way to make some extra money at home. The results of this show have been truly remarkable. So many people are participating that those involved are doing, much better than ever before. Since everyone makes more as more people try it out, its been very exciting to be a part of lately. You will understand once you experience it. "HERE IT IS BELOW" ================================================ *** Print This Now For Future Reference *** The following income opportunity is one you may be interested in taking a look at. It can be started with VERY LITTLE investment and the income return is TREMENDOUS!!! $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ If you would like to make at least $50,000 in less than 90 days! Please read the enclosed program...THEN READ IT AGAIN!!! $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ THIS IS A LEGITIMATE, LEGAL, MONEY MAKING OPPORTUNITY. It does not require you to come into contact with people, do any hard work, and best of all, you never have to leave the house except to get the mail. If you believe that someday you'll get that big break that you've been waiting for, THIS IS IT! Simply follow the instructions, and your dreams will come true. This Multi-level e-mail order marketing program works perfectly 100% EVERY TIME. E-mail is the sales tool of the future. Take advantage of this non-commercialized method of advertising NOW! The longer you wait, the more people will be doing business using e-mail. Get your piece of this action !!! MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING (MLM) has finally gained respectability. It is being taught in the Harvard Business School, and both Stanford Research and the Wall Street Journal have stated that between 50% and 65% of all goods and services will be sold through multi-level methods by the mid to late 1990's. This is a Multi-Billion Dollar industry and of the 500,000 millionaires in the U.S., 20% (100,000) made their fortune in the last several years in MLM. Moreover, statistics show 45people become millionaires everyday through Multi-Level Marketing. You may have heard this story before, but over the summer Donald Trump made an appearance on the David Letterman show. Dave asked him what he would do if he lost everything and had to start over from scratch. Without hesitating, Trump said he would find a good network marketing company and get to work. The audience started to hoot and boo him. He looked out at the audience and dead-panned his response "That's why I'm sitting up here and you are all sitting out there!" With network marketing you have two sources of income. Direct commissions from sales you make yourself and commissions from sales made by people you introduce to the business. Residual income is the secret of the wealthy. It means investing time or money once and getting paid again and again and again. In network marketing, it also means getting paid for the work of others. The enclosed information is something I almost let slip through my fingers. Fortunately, sometime later I re- read everything and gave some thought and study to it. My name is Jonathan Rourke. Two years ago, the corporation I worked at for the past twelve years down- sized and my position was eliminated. After unproductive job interviews, I decided to open my own business. Over the past year, I incurred many unforeseen financial problems. I owed my family, friends and creditors over $35,000. The economy was taking a toll on my business and I just couldn't seem to make ends meet. I had to refinance and borrow against my home to support my family and struggling business. AT THAT MOMENT something significant happened in my life and I am writing to share the experience in hopes that this will change your life FOREVER FINANCIALLY!!! In mid December, I received this program via e-mail. Six month's prior to receiving this program, I had been sending away for information on various business opportunities. All of the programs I received, in my opinion, were not cost effective. They were either too difficult for me to comprehend or the initial investment was too much for me to risk to see if they would work or not. One claimed that I would make a million dollars in one year...it didn't tell me I'd have to write a book to make it! But like I was saying, in December of 1997 I received this program. I didn't send for it, or ask for it, they just got my name off a mailing list. THANK GOODNESS FOR THAT !!! After reading it several times, to make sure I was reading it correctly, I couldn't believe my eyes. Here was a MONEY MAKING PHENOMENON. I could invest as much as I wanted to start, without putting me further into debt. After I got a pencil and paper and figured it out, I would at least get my money back. But like most of you I was still a little skeptical and a little worried about the legal aspects of it all. So I checked it out with the U.S. Post Office (1-800-725-2161 24-hrs) and they confirmed that it is indeed legal! After determining the program was LEGAL and NOT A CHAIN LETTER, I decided "WHY NOT." Initially I sent out 10,000 e-mails. It cost me about $15 for my time on-line. The great thing about e-mail is that I don't need any money for printing to send out the program, and because all of my orders are fulfilled via e-mail, the only expense is my time. I am telling you like it is, I hope it doesn't turn you off, but I promised myself that I would not "rip-off" anyone, no matter how much money it cost me. In less than one week, I was starting to receive orders for REPORT #1. By January 13, I had received 26orders for REPORT #1. Your goal is to "RECEIVE at least 20 ORDERS FOR REPORT #1 WITHIN 2 WEEKS. IF YOU DON'T, SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO!" My first step in making $50,000 in 90 days was done. By January 30, I had received 196 orders for REPORT #2. Your goal is to "RECEIVE AT LEAST 100+ ORDERS FOR REPORT #2 WITHIN 2 WEEKS. IF NOT, SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO. ONCE YOU HAVE 100 ORDERS, THE REST IS EASY, RELAX, YOU WILL MAKE YOUR $50,000 GOAL." Well, I had 196 orders for REPORT #2, 96 more than I needed. So I sat back and relaxed. By March 1, of my e-mailing of 10,000, I received $58,000 with more coming in every day. I paid off ALL my debts and bought a much needed new car. Please take time to read the attached program, IT WILL CHANGE YOUR LIFE FOREVER!!! Remember, it won't work if you don't try it. This program does work, but you must follow it EXACTLY! Especially the rules of not trying to place your name in a different place. It won't work, you'll lose out on a lot of money! In order for this program to work, you must meet your goal of 20+ orders for REPORT #1, and 100+ orders for REPORT #2 and you will make $50,000 or more in 90 days. I AM LIVING PROOF THAT IT WORKS!!! If you choose not to participate in this program, I am sorry. It really is a great opportunity with little cost or risk to you. If you choose to participate, follow the program and you will be on your way to financial security. If you are a fellow business owner and are if financial trouble like I was, or you want to start your own business, consider this a sign. I DID! Sincerely, Jonathan Rourke PS Do you have any idea what 11,700 $5 bills ($58,000) look like piled up on a kitchen table? IT'S AWESOME! A PERSONAL NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM: By the time you have read the enclosed program and reports, you should have concluded that such a program, and one that is legal, could not have been created by an amateur. Let me tell you a little about myself. I had a profitable business for 10 years. Then in 1979 my business began falling off. I was doing the same things that were previously successful for me, but it wasn't working. Finally, I figured it out. It wasn't me, it was the economy. Inflation and recession had replaced the stable economy that had been with us since 1945. I don't have to tell you what happened to the unemployment rate...because many of you know >from first hand experience. There were more failures and bankruptcies than ever before. The middle class was vanishing. Those who knew what they were doing invested wisely and moved up. Those who did not, including those who never had anything to save or invest, were moving down into the ranks of the poor. As the saying goes, "THE RICH GET RICHER AND THE POOR GET POORER." The traditional methods of making money will never allow you to "move up" or "get rich", inflation will see to that. You have just received information that can give you financial freedom for the rest of your life, with "NO RISK" and "JUST A LITTLE BIT OF EFFORT." You can make more money in the next few months than you have ever imagined. I should also point out that I will not see a penny of this money, nor anyone else who has provided a testimonial for this program. I have already made over 4 MILLION DOLLARS! I have retired from the program after sending out over 16,000 programs. Now I have several offices that make this and several other programs here and over seas. Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED. Do not change it in any way. It works exceedingly well as it is now. Remember to e-mail a copy of this exciting report to everyone you can think of. One of the people you send this to may send out 50,000...and your name will be on everyone of them! Remember though, the more you send out the more potential customers you will reach. So my friend, I have given you the ideas, information, materials and opportunity to become financially independent, IT IS UP TO YOU NOW! ************************************************************ "THINK ABOUT IT" Before you delete this program from your mailbox, as I almost did, take a little time to read it and REALLY THINK ABOUT IT. Get a pencil and figure out what could happen when YOU participate. Figure out the worst possible response and no matter how you calculate it, you will still make a lot of money! You will definitely get back what you invested. Any doubts you have will vanish when your first orders come in. IT WORKS! Jody Jacobs, Richmond, VA ************************************************************ HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PROGRAM WILL MAKE YOU THOUSANDS OF DOLLAR$ INSTRUCTIONS: This method of raising capital REALLY WORKS 100% EVERY TIME. I am sure that you could use up to $50,000 or more in the next 90 days. Before you say "BULL... ", please read this program carefully. This is not a chain letter, but a perfectly legal money making opportunity. Basically, this is what you do: As with all multi-level businesses, we build our business by recruiting new partners and selling our products. Every state in the USA allows you to recruit new multi-level business partners, and we offer a product for EVERY dollar sent. YOUR ORDERS COME BY MAIL AND ARE FILLED BY E-MAIL, so you are not involved in personal selling. You do it privately in your own home, store or office. This is the GREATEST Multi-Level Mail Order Marketing anywhere: This is what you MUST do: 1. Order all 4 reports shown on the list below (you can't sell them if you don't order them). * For each report, send $5.00 CASH, the NAME & NUMBER OF THE REPORT YOU ARE ORDERING, YOUR E-MAIL AND ADDRESS, YOUR NAME & RETURN ADDRESS (in case of a problem)and to the person whose name appears on the list next to the report. MAKE SURE YOUR RETURN ADDRESS IS ON YOUR ENVELOPE IN CASE OF ANY MAIL PROBLEMS! * When you place your order, make sure you order each of the four reports. You will need all four reports so that you can save them on your computer and resell them. * Within a few days you will receive, via e-mail, each of the four reports. Save them on your computer so they will be accessible for you to send to the 1,000's of people who will order them from you. 2. IMPORTANT-- DO NOT alter the names of the people who are listed next to each report, or their sequence on the list, in any way other than is instructed below in steps "a" through "f" or you will lose out on the majority of your profits. Once you understand the way this works, you'll also see how it doesn't work if you change it. Remember, this method has been tested, and if you alter it, it will not work. a. Look below for the listing of available reports. b. After you've ordered the four reports, take this Advertisement and remove the name and address under REPORT #4. This person has made it through the cycle and is no doubt counting their $50,000! c. Move the name and address under REPORT #3 down to REPORT #4. d. Move the name and address under REPORT #2 down to REPORT #3. e. Move the name and address under REPORT #1 down to REPORT #2. f. Insert your name/address in the REPORT #1 position. Please make sure you copy every name and address ACCURATELY! 3. Take this entire letter, including the modified list of names, and save it to your computer. Make NO changes to the Instruction portion of this letter. Your cost to participate in this is practically nothing (surely you can afford $20). You obviously already have an Internet Connection and e-mail is FREE! To assist you with marketing your business on the internet, the 4 reports you purchase will provide you with invaluable marketing information which includes how to send bulk e- mails, where to find thousands of free classified ads and much, much more. There are two primary methods of building your downline: METHOD #1: SENDING BULK E-MAIL Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and we'll assume you and all those involved send out only 2,000 programs each. Let's also assume that the mailing receives a 0.5% response. Using a good list the response could be much better. Also, many people will send out hundreds of thousands of programs instead of 2,000. But continuing with this example, you send out only 2,000 programs. With a 0.5% response, that is only 10 orders for REPORT #1. Those 10 people respond by sending out 2,000 programs each for a total of 20,000. Out of those 0.5%, 100 people respond and order REPORT #2. Those 100 mail out 2,000 programs each for a total of 200,000. The 0.5% response to that is 1,000 orders for REPORT #3. Those 1,000 send out 2,000 programs each for a 2,000,000 total. The 0.5% response to that is 10,000 orders for REPORT #4. That's 10,000 $5 bills for you. CASH!!! Your total income in this example is $50 + $500 + $5,000+ $50,000 for a total of $55,550!!! REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING 1,990 OUT OF THE 2,000 PEOPLE YOU MAIL TO WILL DO ABSOLUTELY NOTHING AND TRASH THIS PROGRAM! DARE TO THINK FOR A MOMENT WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF EVERYONE, OR HALF SENT OUT 100,000 PROGRAMS INSTEAD OF 2,000. Believe me, many people will do just that, and more! By the way, your cost to participate in this is practically nothing. You obviously already have an internet connection and e-mail is FREE !!! REPORT #2 will show you the best methods for bulk e-mailing, tell you where to obtain free bulk e-mail software and where to obtain e-mail lists. METHOD #2 - PLACING FREE ADS ON THE INTERNET 1. Advertising on the 'Net is very, very inexpensive, and there are HUNDREDS of FREE places to advertise. Let's say you decide to start small just to see how well it works. Assume your goal is to get ONLY 10 people to participate on your first level. (Placing a lot of FREE ads on the internet will EASILY get a larger response.) Also assume that everyone else in YOUR ORGANIZATION gets ONLY 10 downline members. Follow this example to achieve the STAGGERING results below: 1st level-your 10 members with $5.........$50 2nd level-10 members from those 10 ($5 x 100).......$500 3rd level-10 members from those 100 ($5 x 1,000) $5,000 4th level-10 members from those 1,000 ($5 x 10k) $50,000 THIS TOTALS ---------------------------$55,550 Remember friends, this assumes that the people who participate only recruit 10 people each. Think for a moment what would happen if they got 20 people to participate! Most people get 100's of participants! THINK ABOUT IT! For every $5.00 you receive, all you must do is e-mail them the report they ordered. THAT'S IT! ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ALL ORDERS! This will guarantee that the e-mail THEY send out, with YOUR name and address on it, will be prompt because they can't advertise until they receive the report! ------------------ AVAILABLE REPORTS ----------------------- *** Order Each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME *** Notes: * ALWAYS SEND $5 CASH (U.S. CURRENCY) FOR EACH REPORT CHEQUES NOT ACCEPTED * - ALWAYS SEND YOUR ORDER VIA FIRST CLASS MAIL - Make sure the cash is concealed by wrapping it in at least two sheets of paper (IF NOT MORE SO THAT THE BILL CAN'T BE SEEN AGAINST LIGHT) - On one of those sheets of paper, include: (a) the number & name of the report you are ordering, (b) your e-mail address, and (c) your name & postal address (as return address in case the post office encounters problems). PLACE YOUR ORDER FOR THESE REPORTS NOW: ______________________________________________________ REPORT #1 "The Insider's Guide to Advertising for Free on the Internet" ORDER REPORT #1 FROM: G.C.WRIGHT P.O. BOX 293237 SACRAMENTO,CA.95828 ______________________________________________________ REPORT #2 "The Insider's Guide to Sending Bulk E-mail on the Internet" ORDER REPORT #2 FROM: CHRIS BEEBE 4101 BRETT ST. #L10 CORPUS CHRISTI, TX 78411 ______________________________________________________ REPORT #3 "The Secrets to Multilevel Marketing on the Internet" ORDER REPORT #3 FROM: JACOB FINKLEA 3005 S. LAMAR BLVD. #D-109-382 AUSTIN,TX 78704-4786 ______________________________________________________ REPORT #4 "How to become a Millionaire utilizing the Power of Multilevel Marketing and the Internet" ORDER REPORT #4 FROM: TERRY TOWNSEND 504 YELLOW JACKET ROAD DAYTON ,NV 89403 ______________________________________________________ About 50,000 new people get online every month! ******* TIPS FOR SUCCESS ******* * TREAT THIS AS YOUR BUSINESS! Be prompt, professional, and follow the directions accurately. * Send for the four reports IMMEDIATELY so you will have them when the orders start coming in because: When you receive a $5 order, you MUST send out the requested product/report. * ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON THE ORDERS YOU RECEIVE. * Be patient and persistent with this program. If you follow the instructions exactly, your results WILL BE SUCCESSFUL! * ABOVE ALL, HAVE FAITH IN YOURSELF AND KNOW YOU WILL SUCCEED! ******* YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINES ******* Follow these guidelines to guarantee your success: If you don't receive 20 orders for REPORT #1 within two weeks, continue advertising or sending e-mails until you do. Then, a couple of weeks later you should receive at least 100 orders for REPORT#2. If you don't, continue advertising or sending e-mails until you do. Once you have received 100 or more orders for REPORT #2, YOU CAN RELAX, because the system is already working for you, and the cash will continue to roll in! THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER: Every time your name is moved down on the list, you are placed in front of a DIFFERENT report. You can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS by watching which report people are ordering >from you. If you want to generate more income, send another batch of e-mails or continue placing ads and start the whole process again! There is no limit to the income you will generate from this business! Before you make your decision as to whether or not you participate in this program. Please answer one question..... DO YOU WANT TO CHANGE YOUR LIFE? If the answer is yes, please look at the following facts about this program: 1. YOU ARE SELLING A PRODUCT WHICH DOES NOT COST ANYTHING TO PRODUCE! 2. YOU ARE SELLING A PRODUCT WHICH DOES NOT COST ANYTHING TO SHIP! 3. YOU ARE SELLING A PRODUCT WHICH DOES NOT COST YOU ANYTHING TO ADVERTISE! 4. YOU ARE UTILIZING THE POWER OF THE INTERNET AND THE POWER OF MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING TO DISTRIBUTE YOUR PRODUCT ALL OVER THE WORLD! 5. YOUR ONLY EXPENSES OTHER THAN YOUR INITIAL $20 INVESTMENT IS YOUR TIME! 6. VIRTUALLY ALL OF THE INCOME YOU GENERATE FROM THIS PROGRAM IS PURE PROFIT! 7. THIS PROGRAM WILL CHANGE YOUR LIFE FOREVER. ******* T E S T I M O N I A L S ******* This program does work, but you must follow it EXACTLY! Especially the rule of not trying to place your name in a different position, it won't work and you'll lose a lot of potential income. I'm living proof that it works. It really is a great opportunity to make relatively easy money, with little cost to you. If you do choose to participate, follow the program exactly, and you'll be on your way to financial security. Steven Bardfield, Portland, OR ************************************************************ My name is Mitchell. My wife, Jody, and I live in Chicago, IL. I am a cost accountant with a major U.S. Corporation and I make pretty good money. When I received the program I grumbled to Jody about receiving "junk mail." I made fun of the whole thing, spouting my knowledge of the population and percentages involved. I "knew" it wouldn't work. Jody totally ignored my supposed intelligence and jumped in with both feet. I made merciless fun of her, and was ready to lay the old "I told you so" on her when the thing didn't work... well, the laugh was on me! Within two weeks she had received over 50 responses. Within 45 days she had received over $147,200 in $5 bills! I was shocked! I was sure that I had it all figured and that it wouldn't work. I AM a believer now. I have joined Jody in her "hobby." I did have seven more years until retirement, but I think of the "rat race" and it's not for me. We owe it all to MLM. Mitchell Wolf MD., Chicago, IL ************************************************************ The main reason for this letter is to convince you that this system is honest, lawful, extremely profitable, and is a way to get a large amount of money in a short time. I was approached several times before I checked this out. I joined just to see what one could expect in return for the minimal effort and money required. To my astonishment, I received $36,470.00 in the first 14 weeks, with money still coming in. Charles Morris, Esq. ************************************************************ Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my mind to participate in this plan. But conservative that I am, I decided that the initial investment was so little that there was just no way that I wouldn't get enough orders to at least get my money back. Boy, was I surprised when I found my medium- size post office box crammed with orders! For awhile, it got so overloaded that I had to start picking up my mail at the window. I'll make more money this year than any 10 years of my life before. The nice thing about this deal is that it doesn't matter where people live. There simply isn't a better investment with a faster return. Paige Willis, Des Moines, IA ************************************************************ I had received this program before. I deleted it, but later I wondered if I shouldn't have given it a try. Of course, I had no idea who to contact to get another copy, so I had to wait until I was e-mailed another program, ..11 months passed then it came...I didn't delete this one!...I made more than $41,000 on the first try!! Violet Wilson, Johnstown, PA *********************************************************** This is my third time to participate in this plan. We have quit our jobs, and will soon buy a home on the beach and live off the interest on our money. The only way on earth that this plan will work for you is if you do it. For your sake, and for your family's sake don't pass up this golden opportunity. Good luck and happy spending! Kerry Ford, Centerport, NY ************************************************************ ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND GET STARTED ON YOUR ROAD TO FINANCIAL FREEDOM! NOW IS THE TIME FOR YOUR TURN DECISIVE ACTION YIELDS POWERFUL RESULTS _______________________________________________________ FOR YOUR INFORMATION.... If you need help with starting a business, registering a business name, learning how income tax is handled, etc., contact your local office of the Small Business Administration (a Federal agency) 1- (800)827-5722 for free help and answers to questions. Also, the Internal Revenue Service offers free help via telephone and free seminars about business tax requirements. Under Bill S1618 Title III passed by the 105th US Congress this letter cannot be considered spam as long as the sender includes contact information and a method of removal. This is a one time e-mail transmission. No request for removal is necessary. From rem-conf Mon Jan 22 15:57:42 2001 From rem-conf-request@es.net Mon Jan 22 15:57:42 2001 Received: from list by mail1.es.net with local (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14Kqg0-0007Es-00; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 15:47:08 -0800 Received: from dns.packetdesign.net (mailman.packetdesign.com) [216.15.46.10] by mail1.es.net with esmtp (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14Kqfz-0007ER-00; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 15:47:07 -0800 Received: from OAK (pd-ambit-host.packetdesign.com [192.168.0.210]) by mailman.packetdesign.com (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id f0MNk4I38826; Mon, 22 Jan 2001 15:46:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from casner@acm.org) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 15:46:14 -0800 (Pacific Standard Time) From: Stephen Casner To: Subject: Minutes of AVT at IETF 49 in San Diego Message-ID: Sender: casner@packetdesign.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: MULTIPART/MIXED; BOUNDARY="309670-2140-980207174=:-67701" X-Mailing-List: X-Loop: rem-conf@es.net Precedence: list This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. Send mail to mime@docserver.cac.washington.edu for more info. --309670-2140-980207174=:-67701 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII To the AVT working group: Attached are the minutes for the AVT sessions at the 49th IETF meeting in San Diego last month. Comments are welcome. -- Steve --309670-2140-980207174=:-67701 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; name="minutes00dec.txt" Content-Transfer-Encoding: BASE64 Content-ID: Content-Description: Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="minutes00dec.txt" TWludXRlcyBvZiB0aGUgQXVkaW8vVmlkZW8gVHJhbnNwb3J0IHdvcmtpbmcg Z3JvdXANCg0KUmVwb3J0ZWQgYnkgU3RlcGhlbiBDYXNuZXINCg0KVGhlIEF1 ZGlvL1ZpZGVvIFRyYW5zcG9ydCB3b3JraW5nIGdyb3VwIG1ldCBmb3IgdHdv IGZ1bGwgc2Vzc2lvbnMgYXQNCnRoZSA0OXRoIElFVEYgaW4gUGl0dHNidXJn aC4gIEluIHRoZSBmaXJzdCBzZXNzaW9uIHdlIGRpc2N1c3NlZA0KYWR2YW5j ZW1lbnQgb2YgdGhlIFJUUCBzcGVjIGFuZCBBL1YgcHJvZmlsZSB0byBEcmFm dCBTdGFuZGFyZCwgaW4NCnBhcnRpY3VsYXIgd2hhdCBzaG91bGQgYmUgc2Fp ZCBhYm91dCBjb25nZXN0aW9uIGNvbnRyb2wuICBXZSBhbHNvDQpkaXNjdXNz ZWQgcGF5bG9hZCBmb3JtYXRzIGZvciBTTVBURSAyOTJNLCBFVlJDIHNwZWVj aCBhbmQgQU1SIGF1ZGlvLA0KcGx1cyBSVENQIGV4dGVuc2lvbnMgZm9yIGJh Y2tjaGFubmVsIG1lc3NhZ2VzIGFuZCByZXRyYW5zbWlzc2lvbg0KaW5jbHVk aW5nIGEgc2VsZWN0aXZlIHJldHJhbnNtaXNzaW9uIHBheWxvYWQgZm9ybWF0 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--309670-2140-980207174=:-67701-- From rem-conf Tue Jan 23 02:34:20 2001 From rem-conf-request@es.net Tue Jan 23 02:34:19 2001 Received: from list by mail1.es.net with local (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14L0eR-000092-00; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 02:26:11 -0800 Received: from smtp4.libero.it [193.70.192.54] by mail1.es.net with esmtp (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14L0eP-00008p-00; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 02:26:09 -0800 Received: from lcamucciont1 (151.17.57.137) by smtp4.libero.it (5.5.015.5) id 3A54738F00C23648 for rem-conf@es.net; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 11:25:01 +0100 Message-ID: <0a9601c08526$bff65fe0$89391197@infostrada.it> From: "Abuse" To: References: <20010120190926.R14964@nic.funet.fi> Subject: R: [eurocomputergroup@libero.it: Offerta del 22.01.2001 EuroComputer Group Srl] Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 11:25:04 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Mailing-List: X-Loop: rem-conf@es.net Precedence: list Dear consumer your report has been recorded and we are taking measures towards the persons you have signaled; besides we want to inform you that the e-mail account that appears in the headers belongs to our domain (this account is disable) but not the IP adress. In the meantime would you please accept our excuses for this inconvenience. Best regards. ....Servizi Customer Care ....Infostrada - Italia Online ....E-Mail: Abuse@iol.it ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Cc: Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2001 6:09 PM Subject: [eurocomputergroup@libero.it: Offerta del 22.01.2001 EuroComputer Group Srl] > this advertiser uses very bad selection of recipients, messages > written in italian are better to be sent only to .IT domain, anything > else will most likely offend people all over the world -- like this one.. > .. which doesn't mean italians won't be offended of unsolicited spam .. > > From rem-conf Tue Jan 23 04:38:18 2001 From rem-conf-request@es.net Tue Jan 23 04:38:18 2001 Received: from list by mail1.es.net with local (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14L2da-0002Tp-00; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 04:33:26 -0800 Received: from odin.ietf.org (ietf.org) [132.151.1.176] by mail1.es.net with esmtp (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14L2dY-0002Te-00; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 04:33:24 -0800 Received: from CNRI.Reston.VA.US (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA09203; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 07:33:24 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200101231233.HAA09203@ietf.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" To: IETF-Announce: ; Cc: rem-conf@es.net From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Reply-to: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-avt-rtp-amr-03.txt Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 07:33:23 -0500 Sender: nsyracus@cnri.reston.va.us X-Mailing-List: X-Loop: rem-conf@es.net Precedence: list --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Audio/Video Transport Working Group of the IETF. Title : RTP payload format for AMR Author(s) : J. Sjoberg, M. Westerlund, A. Lakaniemi, P. Koskelainen, B. Wimmer, T. Fingscheidt, Q. Xie, S. Gupta Filename : draft-ietf-avt-rtp-amr-03.txt Pages : 19 Date : 22-Jan-01 This document describes a proposed real-time transport protocol (RTP) [8] payload format for AMR speech encoded [1] signals. The AMR payload format is designed to be able to interoperate with existing AMR transport formats. This document also includes a MIME type registration for AMR. The MIME type is specified for both real-time transport and storage. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-avt-rtp-amr-03.txt Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-ietf-avt-rtp-amr-03.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-avt-rtp-amr-03.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; Boundary="OtherAccess" --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; access-type="mail-server"; server="mailserv@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <20010122143312.I-D@ietf.org> ENCODING mime FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-avt-rtp-amr-03.txt --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-avt-rtp-amr-03.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <20010122143312.I-D@ietf.org> --OtherAccess-- --NextPart-- From rem-conf Tue Jan 23 11:02:07 2001 From rem-conf-request@es.net Tue Jan 23 11:02:06 2001 Received: from list by mail1.es.net with local (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14L8Yo-0001IX-00; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 10:52:54 -0800 Received: from relay.eecs.berkeley.edu [169.229.34.228] by mail1.es.net with esmtp (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14L8Ym-0001IN-00; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 10:52:52 -0800 Received: from bmrc.berkeley.edu (ix.CS.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.36.141]) by relay.EECS.Berkeley.EDU (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA18448; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 10:52:52 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3A6DD246.A84344B6@bmrc.berkeley.edu> Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 10:49:42 -0800 From: Florissa Colina X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: 1/24 The How and What and Why of Keynote Systems Streaming Media Measurements -- Chris Overton, Keynote Systems, Inc. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bcc: To: rem-conf@es.net X-Mailing-List: X-Loop: rem-conf@es.net Precedence: list Berkeley Multimedia, Graphics and Interfaces Seminar The How and What and Why of Keynote Systems Streaming Media Measurements Wednesday January 24, 2001, 1:10-2:30 p.m. PDT Fujitsu Seminar Room (405 Soda Hall) Chris Overton Keynote Systems, Inc. This talk by the main architect of Keynote's streaming metrics will introduce how several factors have created a need to estimate the quality of media streamed over the Internet. Basic strategies of audio and video codecs will be reviewed, and the encoding/network transmission/rendering process will be discussed in the context of important network protocols. We will emphasize how lossy UDP-based transmission and lossy encoding combine to introduce uncertainty both in a stream and in any reasonably calculable estimate of its quality. We will then present metrics Keynote has built to encapsulate meaningful components that relate to end-user experience, while attempting to isolate behavior of interest to specific parties. Finally, we will discuss merits of several types of industry offerings, characterize streaming performance available today, and indicate how this performance is improving. --------------- The seminar is broadcast live on the Internet Mbone and as a Real Networks G2 broadcast. You can connect to the live RealNetworks broadcast at: http://bmrc.berkeley.edu/bibs/cs298-5 You can also directly put in this url into the Real Player: rtsp://media2.bmrc.berkeley.edu/encoder/cs298-5.rm To do so you will need to have the "Real Player G2" installed, which is available from: http://www.real.com/products/player/downloadrealplayer.html To tune into the Internet MBone broadcast, look for the announcement in your MBone session directory program ('sdr'). If you are not receiving the announcement you may be able to receive the session by manually configuring the client programs ('vic', and 'vat') with the session addresses: medium bit rate video: 233.0.25.129/22334 audio: 233.0.25.2/22446 You can get further information about this seminar, and access to replays of previous seminars at the MIG Seminar web page: http://media2.bmrc.berkeley.edu/bibs/archive.cfm Sponsored by the Berkeley Multimedia Research Center From rem-conf Tue Jan 23 15:24:54 2001 From rem-conf-request@es.net Tue Jan 23 15:24:53 2001 Received: from list by mail1.es.net with local (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14LCjc-0006Be-00; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 15:20:20 -0800 Received: from e2.ny.us.ibm.com [32.97.182.102] by mail1.es.net with esmtp (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14LCjZ-00069t-00; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 15:20:18 -0800 Received: from northrelay02.pok.ibm.com (northrelay02.pok.ibm.com [9.117.200.22]) by e2.ny.us.ibm.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA309588; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 18:17:41 -0500 Received: from d01ml243.pok.ibm.com (d01ml243.pok.ibm.com [9.117.200.72]) by northrelay02.pok.ibm.com (8.8.8m3/NCO v4.95) with ESMTP id SAA128776; Tue, 23 Jan 2001 18:15:32 -0500 Importance: Normal Subject: Reminder: CFP: ACM SIGCOMM 2001 - Deadline Jan 26. To: tci-announce@listserv.computer.org, tccc@ieee.org, tcgn@ieee.org, end2end-interest@isi.edu, confctrl@isi.edu, itc@ieee.org, ifip-6-1-distr@run.montefiore.ulg.ac.be, ifip-tc6@informatik.rwth-aachen.de, sigmetrics@haven.epm.ornl.gov, dbworld@cs.wisc.edu, f-troup@CODEX.CIS.upenn.edu, cost237-transport@comp.lancs.ac.uk, reres@laas.fr, hipparch@sophia.inria.fr, xtp-relay@cs.concordia.ca, rem-conf@es.net, commsoft@cc.bellcore.com, cnom@maestro.bellcore.com, conf@colmar.uha.fr, Cost264@lip6.fr, domain3@BXL.DG13.cec.eu.int, nichains@BXL.DG13.cec.eu.int, gi-fb3@fokus.gmd.de, kuvs-elg@fokus.gmd.de, multicomm@cc.bellcore.com, kgold@firstconf.com, announcements.chi@acm.com, netnomics@eco.utexas.edu, IEEETCPC-request@LISTSERV.UTORONTO.CA, gigabitkits@arl.wustl.edu X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 5.0.3 (Intl) 21 March 2000 Message-ID: From: "Dilip D Kandlur" Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 18:22:37 -0500 X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on D01ML243/01/M/IBM(Release 5.0.6 |December 14, 2000) at 01/23/2001 06:18:35 PM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailing-List: X-Loop: rem-conf@es.net Precedence: list CALL FOR PAPERS ACM SIGCOMM 2001 CONFERENCE August 27 - August 31, 2001 Mandeville Auditorium, UC San Diego, CA, USA. http://www.acm.org/sigcomm/sigcomm2001 Important Dates: Paper submission: January 26, 2001 Tutorial proposals: February 12, 2001 Notification of acceptance: April 23, 2001 Camera ready papers: May 21, 2001 The SIGCOMM 2001 conference seeks papers describing significant research contributions to the field of computer and data communication networks. Authors are invited to submit full papers concerned with both theory and practice. Areas of interest include, but are not limited to: - Distributed application networking infrastructure. - Distributed common application services, middleware protocols, and signaling. - Routing, switching, and addressing. - Resource sharing, quality of service, multimedia networks, and OS support. - Multimedia networking. - Networking aspects of the WWW. - Heterogeneous internetworking, large-scale networks. - Network management. - Active network architectures and protocols. - Important experimental results from operational networks and lessons learned from prototype implementations. - Wireless networking and support for nomadic computing. - Analysis and design of computer network architectures and algorithms. SIGCOMM 2001 is a single-track, highly selective conference at which successful submissions typically report results firmly substantiated by experiment, implementation, simulation, or mathematical analysis. In addition to the technical program (paper presentations), SIGCOMM 2001 will offer tutorials by noted instructors on the two days preceding the actual conference, and feature an outrageous opinion session where fresh and unconventional perspectives will be offered. Submission Instructions: ------------------------ Papers must be less than 20 double-spaced pages long (formatted for printing in the Proceedings, papers may not be longer than 12 pages), have an abstract of 100-150 words, and be original material that has not been previously published nor is currently under review by another conference or journal. Authors must submit papers electronically, using the instructions at http://www.acm.org/sigs/sigcomm/sigcomm2001/submission/index.htm. Authors not able to comply with these instructions should contact the Program Co-Chairs at sigcomm2001@seas.upenn.edu . Papers submitted after the deadline will not be considered without an ahead-of-time extension from the Program Co-Chairs. All submitted papers will be judged based on their quality and relevance through double-blind reviewing, where the identities of the authors are withheld from the reviewers. Consult the on-line submission instructions for information on preparing a manuscript for double-blind review. Authors of accepted papers will need to sign an ACM copyright release form and present their paper at the conference. The Proceedings of the conference will be published as a special issue of ACM SIGCOMM Computer Communication Review. The Program Committee may also select a few papers for possible publication in the IEEE/ACM Transactions on Networking. Electronic copies of the accepted papers will be published on the SIGCOMM 2001 web site prior to the conference unless authors specifically request that this not be done. Tutorials: ---------- SIGCOMM 2001 will begin with two days of full-day and half-day tutorials covering single topics in detail, at both the introductory or advanced level. Individuals interested in submitting tutorial proposals are encouraged to contact the Tutorial Chair before the deadline to discuss the proposed content. Student Paper Award Papers submitted by students may be considered for a student-paper award, which includes full conference registration and a travel grant of approximately $500. To be eligible, the student must be the sole author of the paper, or the first author and primary contributor. A cover letter or email to the Program Chairs must identify the paper as a candidate for this competition. SIGCOMM Award: -------------- The keynote speaker at SIGCOMM 2001 will be the 2001 winner of the ACM SIGCOMM Award for lifetime contributions to the field of computer communication. Procedures for nominating candidates for the SIGCOMM Award can be obtained from Scott Shenker (shenker@aciri.org). From rem-conf Wed Jan 24 02:27:04 2001 From rem-conf-request@es.net Wed Jan 24 02:27:04 2001 Received: from list by mail1.es.net with local (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14LN12-0000oi-00; Wed, 24 Jan 2001 02:19:00 -0800 Received: from beamer.mchh.siemens.de [194.138.158.163] by mail1.es.net with esmtp (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14LN10-0000oW-00; Wed, 24 Jan 2001 02:18:58 -0800 Received: from moody.mchh.siemens.de (mail2.mchh.siemens.de [194.138.158.226]) by beamer.mchh.siemens.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA21607 for ; Wed, 24 Jan 2001 11:18:42 +0100 (MET) From: Tobias.Faerber@mch.siemens.de Received: from mchh9eea.mchh.siemens.de (mchh9eea.mchh.siemens.de [139.21.204.218]) by moody.mchh.siemens.de (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id LAA04981 for ; Wed, 24 Jan 2001 11:18:41 +0100 (MET) Received: by mchh9eea.mchh.siemens.de with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Wed, 24 Jan 2001 11:18:41 +0100 Message-ID: <07B0CDE3B76AD31190F700508B5D5D1D68A74E@mchg9eba.mchh.siemens.de> To: rem-conf@es.net Subject: mpeg 4 audio over rtp Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 11:18:36 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain X-Mailing-List: X-Loop: rem-conf@es.net Precedence: list hello, is it possible to include me in the mailing list that I can follow the discussion on new rtp payload formats for mpeg4 audio transport ? according to 3 gpp mpeg4-audio will be audio streaming codec most probably and as device producing company it is interesting for us to follow the discussion and maybe bring some contribution (siemens is member of 3gpp) best regards Tobias Faerber ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------- > Faerber Tobias Siemens AG > ICM MP RD MCH 83 Information and Communication Mobile > > Tel: +49 89 722 58578 Grillparzerstrasse 10 a > Fax: +49 89 722 59070 81675 Munich, Germany mailto:tobias.faerber@mch.siemens.de ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------- From rem-conf Wed Jan 24 05:51:10 2001 From rem-conf-request@es.net Wed Jan 24 05:51:09 2001 Received: from list by mail1.es.net with local (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14LQ8Q-0004fj-00; Wed, 24 Jan 2001 05:38:50 -0800 Received: from purple.east.isi.edu [38.245.76.9] by mail1.es.net with esmtp (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14LQ8O-0004fZ-00; Wed, 24 Jan 2001 05:38:48 -0800 Received: from purple.east.isi.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by purple.east.isi.edu (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA01105; Wed, 24 Jan 2001 08:38:38 -0500 Message-Id: <200101241338.IAA01105@purple.east.isi.edu> To: Tobias.Faerber@mch.siemens.de cc: rem-conf@es.net Subject: Re: mpeg 4 audio over rtp In-Reply-To: Message from Tobias.Faerber@mch.siemens.de of "Wed, 24 Jan 2001 11:18:36 +0100." <07B0CDE3B76AD31190F700508B5D5D1D68A74E@mchg9eba.mchh.siemens.de> Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 08:38:38 -0500 From: Colin Perkins X-Mailing-List: X-Loop: rem-conf@es.net Precedence: list --> Tobias.Faerber@mch.siemens.de writes: >is it possible to include me in the mailing list that I can follow the >discussion on new rtp payload formats for mpeg4 audio transport ? >according to 3 gpp mpeg4-audio will be audio streaming codec most probably >and as device producing company it is interesting for us to follow the >discussion and maybe bring some contribution (siemens is member of 3gpp) The discussion is happening partly on rem-conf@es.net, and partly on the MPEG reflector at 4on2andIP-sys@advent.ee.columbia.edu. I believe you can subscribe to the latter via 4on2andIP-sys-request@advent.ee.columbia.edu See also RFC 3016, and the set of internet drafts on SL based solutions. Colin From rem-conf Wed Jan 24 07:38:03 2001 From rem-conf-request@es.net Wed Jan 24 07:38:02 2001 Received: from list by mail1.es.net with local (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14LRvy-0007Jv-00; Wed, 24 Jan 2001 07:34:06 -0800 Received: from gorilla.mchh.siemens.de [194.138.158.18] by mail1.es.net with esmtp (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14LRvw-0007Jl-00; Wed, 24 Jan 2001 07:34:04 -0800 Received: from moody.mchh.siemens.de (mail2.mchh.siemens.de [194.138.158.226]) by gorilla.mchh.siemens.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA26392 for ; Wed, 24 Jan 2001 16:33:04 +0100 (MET) From: Tobias.Faerber@mch.siemens.de Received: from mchh9ega.mchh.siemens.de (mchh9ega.mchh.siemens.de [139.21.204.219]) by moody.mchh.siemens.de (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id QAA15638 for ; Wed, 24 Jan 2001 16:33:06 +0100 (MET) Received: by mchh9ega.mchh.siemens.de with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Wed, 24 Jan 2001 16:33:04 +0100 Message-ID: <07B0CDE3B76AD31190F700508B5D5D1D68A755@mchg9eba.mchh.siemens.de> To: rem-conf@es.net Subject: can I be set on the mailing-list ? Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 16:33:03 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain X-Mailing-List: X-Loop: rem-conf@es.net Precedence: list hello, is it possible to include me in the mailing list that I can follow the discussion on new rtp payload formats for mpeg4 audio transport ? according to 3 gpp mpeg4-audio will be audio streaming codec most probably and as device producing company it is interesting for us to follow the discussion and maybe bring some contribution (siemens is member of 3gpp) best regards Tobias Faerber ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------- > Faerber Tobias Siemens AG > ICM MP RD MCH 83 Information and Communication Mobile > > Tel: +49 89 722 58578 Grillparzerstrasse 10 a > Fax: +49 89 722 59070 81675 Munich, Germany mailto:tobias.faerber@mch.siemens.de ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------- From rem-conf Wed Jan 24 21:13:25 2001 From rem-conf-request@es.net Wed Jan 24 21:13:25 2001 Received: from list by mail1.es.net with local (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14LeXt-0006tq-00; Wed, 24 Jan 2001 21:02:05 -0800 Received: from mailgate.chainbow.co.uk (sgwpdc.chainbow.co.uk) [194.159.238.146] by mail1.es.net with esmtp (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14LeXp-0006tD-00; Wed, 24 Jan 2001 21:02:01 -0800 Received: from RlKc294h6 (max1-028.mtld.fl.iag.net [207.30.74.28]) by sgwpdc.chainbow.co.uk with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2650.21) id DTPMBQ44; Thu, 25 Jan 2001 04:05:56 -0000 DATE: 24 Jan 01 11:17:51 PM FROM: xTBVJ31R4@STOCKNEWS.COM Reply-to: Investors@Callyourbrokers.net Message-ID: TO: Investors@Callyourbrokers.net SUBJECT: Buy Low, Sell High this stock is on fire.... X-Mailing-List: X-Loop: rem-conf@es.net Precedence: list INTERNATIONAL FORECASTER intforcaster@excite.com POWER TECHNOLOGY, INC. SYMBOL: PWTC (OTC-BB) PWTC.NAP (Berlin Stock Exchange) LOW/HIGH: $5/16 - $6.625 SHARES ISSUED 18,000,000 RECENT TRADING RANGE: $0.40-$1.30 SHARES IN FLOAT 8,000,000 LIABILITIES: NONE Up to the minute news click here: http://finance.yahoo.com/q?s=PWTC.OB 1000 West Bonanza Road, Las Vegas, Nevada 89106 FAX: (702) 382-3240 * email: pwtc@powerpwtc.com * NEW POWER TECHNOLOGY BATTERY EXPECTED TO IMPACT BATTERY INDUSTRY The Concept: To produce a new, environmentally friendly, more powerful, more efficient battery for commercial use in the electric automobile and other existing battery applications. The Inventor: Internationally recognized inventor Alvin A. Snaper holds several hundred patents, including the IBM Selectric Ball, an Apollo photo instrument for NASA, landing gear for Boeing, a Fluidic computer for Singer, a Fluidic Missile System for Rocketdyne, an electrostatic paint process for General Motors and now, the Power Technology Battery. The Past: Over the past three years, Mr. Snaper has been developing a battery to replace the environmentally unfriendly lead acid battery used in most automobiles, trains, airplanes and marine craft, and to power electric vehicles more effectively. To succeed in the electric vehicle market, a battery needs lighter components and substantially increased power densities so the electric vehicle can compete with the internal combustion engine in performance and cost. Batteries, a major component of the electric vehicle, are typically subject to low efficiencies and are an environmental hazard (they contain lead and acid). However, Mr. Snaper and his team have developed a superior battery with a unique electrode structure, made of a nontoxic alloy, which increases the electrochemically active surface area within the battery 1000 times and is light weight, produces more charge and recharges very quickly. This technology also utilizes a safe, nontoxic electrolyte in place of acid. The Present: Power Technology, Inc. has applied for patent protection for the battery and has received the pending number. Meetings with commercial battery producers are slated during the summer of 2000 and first and second quarters of 2001 to demonstrate the product and discuss options for commercial production. The Advantage: While Power Technology, Inc. is initially seeking to deliver an updated battery for the electric car, its unique product can immediately be adapted to the existing battery market place. The Power Technology battery can be used in boats, ships, and airplanes to reduce weight and increase power. In automobiles, the toxic lead acid battery can be eliminated. The Future: Power Technology, Inc. will form industry alliances with commercial battery manufacturers to deliver its battery to the marketplace efficiently, without the cost of developing its own factories and marketing connections. Power Technology, Inc. will organize alliances with producers of electric vehicles, aircraft, water craft, trains and heavy trucks to test this product in all types of conditions and prove its superiority to industry and the public. There is also a tremendous market application for bicycles. Power Technology, Inc. will work to deliver this and other environmentally friendly products to the market place. Other products in development include a new air conditioner unit for automobiles that eliminates the use of freon, and an alloy sensor that generates its own voltage continuously. The Company is conducting research and development on its patented alloy sensor technology. The proprietary alloy gives off a small (1.5v) electrical charge when it comes in contact with moisture. The Company has been developing this technology for use as a permanently installed water detection device to check for the presence of water in storage tanks, fuel tanks and other systems. The alloy sensor can be mounted on a valve socket, along with a meter. A plug inserted into the valve permits quick and easy meter readings. This technology also has applications in the roofing and marine industries and hydro applications, and it can be used as a low-voltage battery. Patents are our future. Power Technology, Inc. through the sale of licences for the use of its technologies, will establish a highly efficient, financially sound, commercially viable corporation that will work for the benefit of its shareholders. BATTERY INNOVATION by POWER TECHNOLOGY, INC. Power Technology’s years of research and development have produced a revolutionary internal battery structure which, when coupled with the correct application of nickel and iron, will: 1. Require one-half (1/2) the size of a lead-acid battery to produce an equal number of watt hours; 2. Require one-half (1/2) the charging time of a lead-acid battery to produce an equal number of watt hours; 3. Weigh less than one-half (1/2) the weight of a comparably sized lead acid battery; 4. Have two to two and one-half (2-2.5) times the power density of a comparably sized lead-acid battery (50-70 watt hours per Kg versus 20-35 lead-acid); 5. Be adaptable to varied dimensions and configurations for use in electric bicycles, automobiles and a range of other applications; 6. Have a life of two to three times that of a lead-acid battery; 7. Be capable of accepting low level ultrasonic vibration to enhance conductivity, whereas solid plate lead-acid batteries typically cannot; 8. Not require thermal management packages for high-output uses such as electric vehicles; 9. Cost approximately the same to produce as a lead-acid battery; 10. Retail for ten to twenty percent (10-20%) more than their lead-acid counterpart, while providing double the range and longevity; and 11. Improve the use, ease and efficiency of any battery powered product. By using specially formulated reticulated foam plates and metallic pastes. Previously, foam plating developed by competitors has proven too weak to support the battery’s internal structure. Power Technology has solved the problem and applied for a patent on the invention. Who is Power Technology? Power Technology, Inc. (PWTC) is an SEC registered, reporting compliant technology company based in Nevada with an R&D department whose members have a 30+ year history of developing numerous patented inventions for practical commercial, industrial and government use. Power Technology has previously patented a unique alloy sensor, which produces an electric charge on contact with water. The company has also patented a Magnetic Pulse Pipeline joining single stage welding process for joining large oil and gas pipelines. How could Power Technology have developed this product? Alvin A. Snaper, whose well-known inventions include the IBM Selectric Ball, Tang, the NASA Apollo Photo-Pack, and a line of industrial hard coatings used by companies such as Gillette, Boeing, TRW, Vermont-American and many others, is Power Technology’s vice-president of development and project coordinator for the new battery technology. Mr. Snaper has been engaged in scientific research for over thirty years and has developed approximately 600 U.S. and foreign patents. The creation and acceptance of industrial hard coatings led him to design and modify the new Power Technology battery. Benefit to Electric Vehicles: The typical E-Bike 2x12 sealed lead-acid battery pack can be replaced by one that is half the size and weight with no loss of capacity. For example, a utility size Exide 12 volt battery weights 23 pounds, while the Power Technology battery weights only 7 pounds. By utilizing a 2x12 Power Technology battery pack, the E-Bike’s range on a single 110 volt charge will increase as a result of the 32 pound reduction in weight with no additional cost to produce over the lead-acid model. The battery can be advertised as environmentally friendly due to the elimination of acid as a component. An extended battery warranty can be included at no additional cost. Benefit to the Electric Vehicle Industry: Vehicle weight coupled with limited driving range are two of the major problems the EV industry has faced. A Saturn EV-1 lead-acid or nickel-metal hydride battery pack weights approximately 1,175 pounds, more than 35% of the vehicle’s 2970 pound curb weight. The nickel-metal hydride battery pack costs substantially more to produce than lead-acid pack resulting in the nickel-metal hydride equipped Saturn retailing for $43,995, some $10,000 more than the $33,995 lead-acid pack model. The next generation propulsion system due for the EV-1 late next year will substantially reduce the weight of the electric motor and related parts resulting in greater driving range between battery charges. Reduction of battery weight would enhance the driving range even further. The Power Technology battery would: 1. Reduce Saturn’s vehicle weight by almost 600 pounds, increase driving range by 100% over lead-acid and 50% over nickel-metal hydride packs; 2. Eliminate the need for a thermal management system thereby reducing manufacturing cost and weight, and 3. Be produced for substantially less than nickel-metal hydride, resulting in more consumer friendly pricing of the Electric Vehicle. The International Forecaster holds options in this Company. This publication is not a solicitation to buy or sell securities nor should it be construed as investment advice as to the value of securities described herein. This publication is for information purposes only. Any forward looking statements involve uncertainties. Actual results may differ dramatically from the results predicted. Complete information regarding the Company is available without charge by telephone or written request to the Company. The information is considered reliable, but not guaranteed as to accuracy or completeness.   The International Forecaster specifically disclaims any liability in connection with this document.   To receive stock tips on a regular basis to help build your portfolio send us a blank email to: stocknews5@excite.com with subscribe in the subject line.     To be removed send us a blank email with remove in the subject line to optout22@excite.com Sorry for any intrusions From rem-conf Thu Jan 25 00:11:51 2001 From rem-conf-request@es.net Thu Jan 25 00:11:51 2001 Received: from list by mail1.es.net with local (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14LhQe-0003Sw-00; Thu, 25 Jan 2001 00:06:48 -0800 Received: from (smtp2.osk.mainichi.co.jp) [202.224.176.4] by mail1.es.net with esmtp (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14LhQb-0003S5-00; Thu, 25 Jan 2001 00:06:46 -0800 Received: from k.ro ([63.29.185.68]) by smtp2.osk.mainichi.co.jp with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.197.19); Thu, 25 Jan 2001 17:16:07 +0900 Message-ID: <000079bf18c5$00007b37$00005841@iobox.fi> To: From: bpyev@iobox.fi Subject: Work from Home! Guaranteed Minimum Monthly Income!______ Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 22:28:10 -0800 X-Priority: 1 X-MSMail-Priority: High X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.11) X-Mailing-List: X-Loop: rem-conf@es.net Precedence: list Have Your Downline Built BEFORE You Spend Any Money! This program even offers you a Monthly Guaranteed Minimum Income !! Guaranteed DOWNLINE, Guaranteed INCOME! Don't miss out on this Great Opportunity to secure yourself a Guaranteed. Monthly Minimum Income!!! It's FREE to join our Post Launch Program !!! Your FREE membership # will also be entered into a lucky draw to WIN $100 to shop online !! ALL new members who join after you will be placed in ONE Straight Line down UNDER you. YOU can easily get 500-1,000 members under YOU in a month !! There is absolutely NO RISK to get involved and NO COST to join our Post Launch Program. 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We will confirm your position and send you your Member Number and a special report as soon as possible. ____________________________________________ Internet Services For Permanant Remove mailto:bela788@ghanamail.com From rem-conf Thu Jan 25 02:50:10 2001 From rem-conf-request@es.net Thu Jan 25 02:50:10 2001 Received: from list by mail1.es.net with local (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14Ljqg-0007Hp-00; Thu, 25 Jan 2001 02:41:50 -0800 Received: from champagne.dsg.stanford.edu [171.64.79.21] by mail1.es.net with esmtp (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14Ljqf-0007HZ-00; Thu, 25 Jan 2001 02:41:49 -0800 Received: (from sliang@localhost) by champagne.dsg.stanford.edu (8.9.3/8.9.1) id CAA23663 for rem-conf@es.net; Thu, 25 Jan 2001 02:40:32 -0800 From: Sam Liang Message-Id: <200101251040.CAA23663@champagne.dsg.stanford.edu> Subject: tolerable packet loss rate for streaming video/audio applications To: rem-conf@es.net Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 02:40:32 -0800 (PST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL0pre8] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailing-List: X-Loop: rem-conf@es.net Precedence: list Hello, I am wondering what the typical packet loss rate that can be tolerated by a video-streaming and audio-streaming application? Can anybody give me any references of such study? Thanks, Sam From rem-conf Thu Jan 25 05:32:49 2001 From rem-conf-request@es.net Thu Jan 25 05:32:47 2001 Received: from list by mail1.es.net with local (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14LmOP-0003MR-00; Thu, 25 Jan 2001 05:24:49 -0800 Received: from add1.multicasttech.com (multicasttech.com) [63.105.122.5] (root) by mail1.es.net with esmtp (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14LmON-0003MH-00; Thu, 25 Jan 2001 05:24:47 -0800 Received: from [216.8.12.29] (HELO 21rst-century.com) by multicasttech.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 3.3.2) with ESMTP id 724063; Thu, 25 Jan 2001 08:24:17 -0500 Message-ID: <3A7029EC.F6C83ECF@21rst-century.com> Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 08:28:12 -0500 From: Marshall Eubanks Reply-To: tme@21rst-century.com Organization: Multicast Technologies X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Sam Liang CC: rem-conf@es.net Subject: Re: tolerable packet loss rate for streaming video/audio applications References: <200101251040.CAA23663@champagne.dsg.stanford.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailing-List: X-Loop: rem-conf@es.net Precedence: list Sam Liang wrote: > > Hello, > > I am wondering what the typical packet loss rate that can be tolerated > by a video-streaming and audio-streaming application? Can anybody give me > any references of such study? > > Thanks, > > Sam Dear Sam; For many video applications 1% is too high. There was a talk about this at the last Internet 2 meeting in Atlanta from Mike Gill and Victor Reijs of NIH <>HEAnet. They concluded that, using MPEG-2 codecs at each end 1.5 to 15 mbps, low latency video, more than 1% loss destroys acceptable MPEG-2 video They were concerned about packet loss NIH to HEAnet - Dublin Ireland (http://www.cs.tcd.ie/chi/tcdnlm/ was the URL they gave for this work.) Even on Internet2, a concerted effort to upgrade router's, adjust router buffers, etc., etc., only reduced the loss rate to about 1% for a trans-Atlantic video multicasts. This was still too high, and it represents a lot more network access than most of us will ever have. IMHO, however, this is not the way to look at it. You WILL get loss rates of order 10% on the commodity Internet, at least at times. What are you going to do about it ? If you do nothing, your users will probably not regard the results as a quality experience. So, whether on the commodity Internet or even on Internet 2, FEC or some other sort of RMT is necessary. (We engineered our FEC to tolerate 10% (gracefully) to even 20% (marginally).) Regards Marshall Eubanks Multicast Technologies, Inc. 10301 Democracy Lane, Suite 201 Fairfax, Virginia 22030 Phone : 703-293-9624 Fax : 703-293-9609 e-mail : tme@on-the-i.com http://www.on-the-i.com From rem-conf Thu Jan 25 10:51:54 2001 From rem-conf-request@es.net Thu Jan 25 10:51:53 2001 Received: from list by mail1.es.net with local (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14Lqzl-0001xV-00; Thu, 25 Jan 2001 10:19:41 -0800 Received: from gw-nl4.philips.com [212.153.190.6] by mail1.es.net with esmtp (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14Lqzk-0001xL-00; Thu, 25 Jan 2001 10:19:40 -0800 Received: from smtprelay-nl1.philips.com (localhost.philips.com [127.0.0.1]) by gw-nl4.philips.com with ESMTP id TAA01582; Thu, 25 Jan 2001 19:19:36 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from philippe.gentric@philips.com) From: philippe.gentric@philips.com Received: from smtprelay-eur1.philips.com(130.139.36.3) by gw-nl4.philips.com via mwrap (4.0a) id xma001580; Thu, 25 Jan 01 19:19:36 +0100 Received: from notessmtp-nl1.philips.com (notessmtp-nl1.philips.com [130.139.36.10]) by smtprelay-nl1.philips.com (8.9.3/8.8.5-1.2.2m-19990317) with ESMTP id TAA10289; Thu, 25 Jan 2001 19:19:36 +0100 (MET) Received: from EMLMS01.DIAMOND.PHILIPS.COM (emlms01sv1.diamond.philips.com [130.143.165.213]) by notessmtp-nl1.philips.com (8.9.3/8.8.5-1.2.2m-19990317) with ESMTP id TAA15798; Thu, 25 Jan 2001 19:19:36 +0100 (MET) Received: by EMLMS01.DIAMOND.PHILIPS.COM (Soft-Switch LMS 4.0) with snapi via EMEA1 id 0056900015444539; Thu, 25 Jan 2001 19:30:10 +0100 To: Cc: Subject: Re: tolerable packet loss rate for streaming video/audio applications Message-ID: <0056900015444539000002L092*@MHS> Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 19:30:10 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; name="MEMO 01/25/01 19:21:26" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline X-Mailing-List: X-Loop: rem-conf@es.net Precedence: list tme@21rst-century.com wrote: > Sam Liang wrote: > > > > Hello, > > > > I am wondering what the typical packet loss rate that can be tole= rated > > by a video-streaming and audio-streaming application? Can anybody = give me > > any references of such study? > > > > Thanks, > > > > Sam > > Dear Sam; > > For many video applications 1% is too high. There was a talk about th= is > at the > last Internet 2 meeting in Atlanta from > Mike Gill and Victor Reijs of NIH <>HEAnet. They concluded that, > using MPEG-2 codecs at each end 1.5 to 15 mbps, low latency video, > more than 1% loss destroys acceptable MPEG-2 video That is because MPEG-2 video was not designed to work on lossy networks at all. MPEG-4 video is *completely* different: it was designed and tested for lossy conditions and will provide acceptable quality (quantification of acceptable requires user tests) for quite large error/loss rates, certainely MUCH larger than 1% !! The document: http://www.ccir.ed.ac.uk/mpeg4/documents/w1808.zip gives you an idea of the kind of very extensive studies and work that has been done on MPEG-4 video. Regards, -- Philippe Gentric Software Architect PHILIPS DIGITAL NETWORKS Broadcast & Internet Delivery Solutions Laboratoires d'Electronique Philips B.P. 15 - 22, Av. Descartes 94453 Limeil-Brevannes Cedex France Phone : 33 (0)1 45 10 68 12 Fax : 33 (0)1 45 10 69 60 philippe.gentric@philips.com = From rem-conf Thu Jan 25 11:22:29 2001 From rem-conf-request@es.net Thu Jan 25 11:22:29 2001 Received: from list by mail1.es.net with local (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14LrWo-00030V-00; Thu, 25 Jan 2001 10:53:50 -0800 Received: from ns2.gdufs.edu.cn (proxy) [202.116.192.38] by mail1.es.net with smtp (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14LrWi-0002xU-00; Thu, 25 Jan 2001 10:53:45 -0800 Received: from _[6.208.11.58]_by by proxy (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id CAA13062; Fri, 26 Jan 2001 02:50:58 -0500 From: goodfortune@libero.it Message-Id: <200101260750.CAA13062@proxy> Received: from [82.78.251.239] by _[6.208.11.58]_by with SMTP id A38C44E10 Thu, 25 Jan 2001 11:50:29 PDT Subject: The truth about offshore Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain, charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 12:07:46 Apparently-To: Apparently-To: Apparently-To: Apparently-To: Apparently-To: Apparently-To: Apparently-To: Apparently-To: Apparently-To: Apparently-To: Apparently-To: Apparently-To: Apparently-To: Apparently-To: Bcc: To: rem-conf@es.net X-Mailing-List: X-Loop: rem-conf@es.net Precedence: list Partners Wanted: Open a secure offshore bank account with a minimum payment of $100.00 Own an offshore MasterCard WITHOUT a social security number and WITHOUT a credit check Develop a secondary offshore income of $500 to $5,000 a day or more - you decide!! Unlimited global market, unlimited income, all confidential You can: Eliminate your debt Secure your Assets Retain ALL your hard earned money And pass your wealth on to your heirs The Super Rich have done this for years…. Isn't it time you started? For information, type "Offshore" in the subject line. mailto:blang2@lycos.com?subject=moreinfo ______________________________________________________ to be removed from this mailing list: mailto:seasonal21@excite.com?subject=remove From rem-conf Thu Jan 25 13:57:12 2001 From rem-conf-request@es.net Thu Jan 25 13:57:12 2001 Received: from list by mail1.es.net with local (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14LuIR-0000ol-00; Thu, 25 Jan 2001 13:51:11 -0800 Received: from isnmmp01.interpath.net [216.48.1.27] by mail1.es.net with esmtp (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14LuIQ-0000ob-00; Thu, 25 Jan 2001 13:51:10 -0800 Received: from rolex ([199.72.92.34]) by isnmmp01.interpath.net (Netscape Messaging Server 3.61) with SMTP id AAA2FE4; Thu, 25 Jan 2001 16:51:07 -0500 Reply-To: From: "Injong Rhee" To: , Cc: Subject: RE: tolerable packet loss rate for streaming video/audio applications Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 16:50:15 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <0056900015444539000002L092*@MHS> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 X-Mailing-List: X-Loop: rem-conf@es.net Precedence: list Well, I disagree about MPEG-4 being so error-resilient codec for IP. We are here talking about IP networks (including wireless IP networks). In IP, a lot of MPEG-4 error resilient tools are not useful. For instance, data partitioning, RVLC, and resynchronization are not going to be useful. This is because packets with bit errors will be simply discarded before delivered to applications. In addition, those MPEG-4 tools that do work in IP such as NEWPRED and Error Tracking cannot be used for stored video or multicast --this is because they need real-time encoders. What do you need is much more than what MPEG-4 has. Some companies are saying they have error concealment to solve the packet losses. But let's face it. Error concealment is not going to work well either unless you have a good error isolation technique (such as RVLC, data partitioning, etc). But in IP world (at least where we are RIGHT NOW), those do not work. Therefore, error concealment is also out to door. If you are talking about UDP-lite or some other variant of transport mechanisms, then you are opening another can of worms. Injong Rhee Togabi Tecnologies, INC www.togabi.com -----Original Message----- From: philippe.gentric@philips.com [mailto:philippe.gentric@philips.com] Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2001 1:30 PM To: sliang@DSG.Stanford.EDU Cc: rem-conf@es.net Subject: Re: tolerable packet loss rate for streaming video/audio applications tme@21rst-century.com wrote: > Sam Liang wrote: > > > > Hello, > > > > I am wondering what the typical packet loss rate that can be tolerated > > by a video-streaming and audio-streaming application? Can anybody give me > > any references of such study? > > > > Thanks, > > > > Sam > > Dear Sam; > > For many video applications 1% is too high. There was a talk about this > at the > last Internet 2 meeting in Atlanta from > Mike Gill and Victor Reijs of NIH <>HEAnet. They concluded that, > using MPEG-2 codecs at each end 1.5 to 15 mbps, low latency video, > more than 1% loss destroys acceptable MPEG-2 video That is because MPEG-2 video was not designed to work on lossy networks at all. MPEG-4 video is *completely* different: it was designed and tested for lossy conditions and will provide acceptable quality (quantification of acceptable requires user tests) for quite large error/loss rates, certainely MUCH larger than 1% !! The document: http://www.ccir.ed.ac.uk/mpeg4/documents/w1808.zip gives you an idea of the kind of very extensive studies and work that has been done on MPEG-4 video. Regards, -- Philippe Gentric Software Architect PHILIPS DIGITAL NETWORKS Broadcast & Internet Delivery Solutions Laboratoires d'Electronique Philips B.P. 15 - 22, Av. Descartes 94453 Limeil-Brevannes Cedex France Phone : 33 (0)1 45 10 68 12 Fax : 33 (0)1 45 10 69 60 philippe.gentric@philips.com From rem-conf Thu Jan 25 15:27:08 2001 From rem-conf-request@es.net Thu Jan 25 15:27:08 2001 Received: from list by mail1.es.net with local (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14LviL-0003aS-00; Thu, 25 Jan 2001 15:22:01 -0800 Received: from relay.eecs.berkeley.edu [169.229.34.228] by mail1.es.net with esmtp (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14LviK-0003Zd-00; Thu, 25 Jan 2001 15:22:00 -0800 Received: from bmrc.berkeley.edu (ix.CS.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.36.141]) by relay.EECS.Berkeley.EDU (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA03846; Thu, 25 Jan 2001 15:21:59 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3A70B44D.2C317A07@bmrc.berkeley.edu> Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 15:18:38 -0800 From: Florissa Colina X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: 1/31 Distribution Architectures for Dynamic Internet Traffic -- Peter Danzig, Akamai Technology, Inc. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bcc: To: rem-conf@es.net X-Mailing-List: X-Loop: rem-conf@es.net Precedence: list Berkeley Multimedia, Graphics and Interfaces Seminar Distribution Architectures for Dynamic Internet Traffic Wednesday, January 31, 2001 1:10-2:30 p.m. PDT Fujitsu Seminar Room (405 Soda Hall) Peter Danzig Akamai Technology, Inc. Last year, commercial content delivery networks emerged to carry several percent of Internet traffic. I will describe some of these architectures for deliverying web and streaming content, and pose and answer questions such as "how much web and streaming traffic does the Internet carry. I will also outline a couple of research questions that you may find interesting. --------------- The seminar is broadcast live on the Internet Mbone and as a Real Networks G2 broadcast. You can connect to the live RealNetworks broadcast at: http://bmrc.berkeley.edu/bibs/cs298-5 You can also directly put in this url into the Real Player: rtsp://media2.bmrc.berkeley.edu/encoder/cs298-5.rm To do so you will need to have the "Real Player G2" installed, which is available from: http://www.real.com/products/player/downloadrealplayer.html To tune into the Internet MBone broadcast, look for the announcement in your MBone session directory program ('sdr'). If you are not receiving the announcement you may be able to receive the session by manually configuring the client programs ('vic', and 'vat') with the session addresses: medium bit rate video: 233.0.25.129/22334 audio: 233.0.25.2/22446 You can get further information about this seminar, and access to replays of previous seminars at the MIG Seminar web page: http://media2.bmrc.berkeley.edu/bibs/archive.cfm Sponsored by the Berkeley Multimedia Research Center From rem-conf Thu Jan 25 17:14:39 2001 From rem-conf-request@es.net Thu Jan 25 17:14:38 2001 Received: from list by mail1.es.net with local (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14LxOS-0006cZ-00; Thu, 25 Jan 2001 17:09:36 -0800 Received: from smtp.bellnexxia.net (tomts6-srv.bellnexxia.net) [209.226.175.26] by mail1.es.net with esmtp (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14LxOR-0006cD-00; Thu, 25 Jan 2001 17:09:35 -0800 Received: from ece.ubc.ca ([207.35.32.98]) by tomts6-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.4.01.03.00 201-229-121) with ESMTP id <20010126010833.DENJ11735.tomts6-srv.bellnexxia.net@ece.ubc.ca> for ; Thu, 25 Jan 2001 20:08:33 -0500 Message-ID: <3A70CE86.AF48F280@ece.ubc.ca> Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 17:10:30 -0800 From: Mohamed Cherif X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rem-conf@es.net Subject: H261 compressed streams Content-Type: text/plain; charset=x-user-defined Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailing-List: X-Loop: rem-conf@es.net Precedence: list Dear all, I'm looking for H261 compressed streams. Any help? Thank you very much. Mohamed From rem-conf Thu Jan 25 20:02:31 2001 From rem-conf-request@es.net Thu Jan 25 20:02:31 2001 Received: from list by mail1.es.net with local (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14M00F-00031a-00; Thu, 25 Jan 2001 19:56:47 -0800 Received: from mail2.microsoft.com [131.107.3.124] by mail1.es.net with smtp (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14M00D-0002x8-00; Thu, 25 Jan 2001 19:56:45 -0800 Received: from 157.54.9.104 by mail2.microsoft.com (InterScan E-Mail VirusWall NT); Thu, 25 Jan 2001 19:40:36 -0800 (Pacific Standard Time) Received: by inet-imc-02.redmond.corp.microsoft.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Thu, 25 Jan 2001 19:32:53 -0800 Message-ID: <33D69E5EAD06364FB98F3562E62ACE89025457FF@red-msg-02.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> From: Gary Sullivan To: "'mohamedc@ece.ubc.ca'" Cc: "'itu-adv-video@standard.pictel.com'" , "'rem-conf@es.net'" Subject: RE: [VCEG] FW: H261 compressed streams Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 19:32:59 -0800 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) X-Mailing-List: X-Loop: rem-conf@es.net Precedence: list Mohamed et al, There is software and a sample bitstream now available in ftp://standard.pictel.com/video-site/h261 (A thank-you goes to K.-y. Yoo.) Best Wishes, Gary Sullivan +> -----Original Message----- +> From: Gary Sullivan +> Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2001 5:25 PM +> To: 'itu-adv-video@standard.pictel.com' +> Cc: 'mohamedc@ece.ubc.ca' +> Subject: [VCEG] FW: H261 compressed streams +> +> +> ITU-T Video Coding Experts Group (VCEG) [Q.6/SG16] +> Email from Gary Sullivan : +> +> +> It's kind of strange that I believe we don't have any H.261 +> bitstreams +> on our ftp site (note: that's a "one", not an "L"). That +> standard is still +> required for video in H.320, H.323, and H.324. Can anyone provide +> a couple? +> +> -Gary S. +> +> -----Original Message----- +> From: Mohamed Cherif [mailto:mohamedc@ece.ubc.ca] +> Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2001 5:11 PM +> To: rem-conf@es.net +> Subject: H261 compressed streams +> +> +> Dear all, +> I'm looking for H261 compressed streams. Any help? +> Thank you very much. +> Mohamed +> +> +> +> ------------------------------------------------------------- +> ------------------- +> *** ITU-T Video Coding Experts Group (VCEG) [Q.6/SG16] Email +> List Message *** +> To send messages, address them to +> "itu-adv-video@standard.pictel.com". +> To subscribe or unsubscribe, send email to +> "majordomo@standard.pictel.com". +> Note: Only people whose exact email address is subscribed to +> the list can post. +> Subscriptions: "subscribe itu-adv-video +> YOUR-EMAIL-ADDRESS" in message body. +> Unsubscriptions: "unsubscribe itu-adv-video +> YOUR-EMAIL-ADDRESS" in message body. +> ------------------------------------------------------------- +> ------------------- +> From rem-conf Fri Jan 26 00:20:30 2001 From rem-conf-request@es.net Fri Jan 26 00:20:29 2001 Received: from list by mail1.es.net with local (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14M3yD-0001Dz-00; Fri, 26 Jan 2001 00:10:57 -0800 Received: from bulls.mei.co.jp [202.224.189.25] by mail1.es.net with esmtp (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14M3yA-0001DD-00; Fri, 26 Jan 2001 00:10:55 -0800 Received: by bulls.mei.co.jp (8.11.1/3.7W) with ESMTP id f0Q893j08721; Fri, 26 Jan 2001 17:09:03 +0900 (JST) Received: by mariners.mei.co.jp (8.9.1/3.7W) with ESMTP id RAA04520; Fri, 26 Jan 2001 17:08:58 +0900 (JST) Received: by haruka.isl.mei.co.jp (8.11.1/3.7W+fakemr) with ESMTP id f0Q88vs68050; Fri, 26 Jan 2001 17:08:57 +0900 (JST) Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 17:16:36 +0900 From: Akihiro Miyazaki To: Subject: Re: tolerable packet loss rate for streaming video/audio applications Cc: , , In-Reply-To: References: <0056900015444539000002L092*@MHS> Message-Id: <20010126170843.0534.AKIHIRO@isl.mei.co.jp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Becky! ver. 2.00.01 X-Mailing-List: X-Loop: rem-conf@es.net Precedence: list Hi Injong and all, > Well, I disagree about MPEG-4 being so error-resilient codec for IP. > > We are here talking about IP networks (including wireless IP networks). > > In IP, a lot of MPEG-4 error resilient tools are not useful. For instance, > data partitioning, RVLC, and resynchronization are not going to be useful. > This is because packets with bit errors will be simply discarded before > delivered to applications. In addition, those MPEG-4 tools that do work in > IP such as NEWPRED and Error Tracking cannot be used for stored video or > multicast --this is because they need real-time encoders. I agree with Injong. > What do you need is much more than what MPEG-4 has. Some companies are > saying they have error concealment to solve the packet losses. But let's > face it. Error concealment is not going to work well either unless you have > a good error isolation technique (such as RVLC, data partitioning, etc). But > in IP world (at least where we are RIGHT NOW), those do not work. Therefore, > error concealment is also out to door. > > If you are talking about UDP-lite or some other variant of transport > mechanisms, then you are opening another can of worms. To cope with loss(discarding) of RTP packet, there are several RTP payload formats specified(some are under discussion) in this avt WG which have error robustness, such as FEC scheme(RFC2733, draft-int-avt-uxp-02.txt, draft-li-ulp-00.txt, etc) and retransmission scheme(draft-wenger-avt-rtcp-feedback-01.txt, draft-fukunaga-low-delay-rtcp-01.txt, draft-ietf-avt-rtp-selret-01.txt, etc.). IMO, retransmission might be better in the case of streaming stored Audio/Video to make good use of bandwidth in the network. On the other hand, FEC might be better in the case of real time 2-way communication application because it cannot tolerate delay of time. Best Regards, Akihiro Miyazaki > -----Original Message----- > From: philippe.gentric@philips.com [mailto:philippe.gentric@philips.com] > Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2001 1:30 PM > To: sliang@DSG.Stanford.EDU > Cc: rem-conf@es.net > Subject: Re: tolerable packet loss rate for streaming video/audio > applications > > > tme@21rst-century.com wrote: > > > Sam Liang wrote: > > > > > > Hello, > > > > > > I am wondering what the typical packet loss rate that can be tolerated > > > by a video-streaming and audio-streaming application? Can anybody give > me > > > any references of such study? > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > Sam > > > > Dear Sam; > > > > For many video applications 1% is too high. There was a talk about this > > at the > > last Internet 2 meeting in Atlanta from > > Mike Gill and Victor Reijs of NIH <>HEAnet. They concluded that, > > using MPEG-2 codecs at each end 1.5 to 15 mbps, low latency video, > > more than 1% loss destroys acceptable MPEG-2 video > > That is because MPEG-2 video was not designed to work on lossy > networks at all. > > MPEG-4 video is *completely* different: it was designed and tested > for lossy conditions and will provide acceptable quality > (quantification of acceptable requires user tests) for quite > large error/loss rates, certainely MUCH larger than 1% !! > > The document: > > http://www.ccir.ed.ac.uk/mpeg4/documents/w1808.zip > > gives you an idea of the kind of very extensive studies and work > that has been done on MPEG-4 video. > > Regards, > > -- > Philippe Gentric > Software Architect > PHILIPS DIGITAL NETWORKS > Broadcast & Internet Delivery Solutions > Laboratoires d'Electronique Philips > B.P. 15 - 22, Av. Descartes > 94453 Limeil-Brevannes Cedex France > Phone : 33 (0)1 45 10 68 12 > Fax : 33 (0)1 45 10 69 60 > philippe.gentric@philips.com > > > > > ----------------------------------------- Akihiro Miyazaki Mobile Core Software Development Group Core Software Development Center Corporate Software Development Division Matsushita Electric Industrial Co., Ltd. TEL:+81-6-6900-9192 FAX:+81-6-6900-9193 (Pana-Van: 7-622-6364) E-mail: akihiro@isl.mei.co.jp ----------------------------------------- From rem-conf Fri Jan 26 06:24:08 2001 From rem-conf-request@es.net Fri Jan 26 06:24:07 2001 Received: from list by mail1.es.net with local (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14M9c9-00028B-00; Fri, 26 Jan 2001 06:12:33 -0800 Received: from gw-nl4.philips.com [212.153.190.6] by mail1.es.net with esmtp (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14M9c7-00026X-00; Fri, 26 Jan 2001 06:12:31 -0800 Received: from smtprelay-nl1.philips.com (localhost.philips.com [127.0.0.1]) by gw-nl4.philips.com with ESMTP id PAA10550; Fri, 26 Jan 2001 15:12:23 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from philippe.gentric@philips.com) From: philippe.gentric@philips.com Received: from smtprelay-eur1.philips.com(130.139.36.3) by gw-nl4.philips.com via mwrap (4.0a) id xma010548; Fri, 26 Jan 01 15:12:23 +0100 Received: from notessmtp-nl1.philips.com (notessmtp-nl1.philips.com [130.139.36.10]) by smtprelay-nl1.philips.com (8.9.3/8.8.5-1.2.2m-19990317) with ESMTP id PAA24180; Fri, 26 Jan 2001 15:12:22 +0100 (MET) Received: from EMLMS01.DIAMOND.PHILIPS.COM (emlms01sv1.diamond.philips.com [130.143.165.213]) by notessmtp-nl1.philips.com (8.9.3/8.8.5-1.2.2m-19990317) with ESMTP id PAA23374; Fri, 26 Jan 2001 15:12:21 +0100 (MET) Received: by EMLMS01.DIAMOND.PHILIPS.COM (Soft-Switch LMS 4.0) with snapi via EMEA1 id 0056900015468644; Fri, 26 Jan 2001 15:22:57 +0100 To: Cc: , Subject: Re: tolerable packet loss rate for streaming video/audio applications Message-ID: <0056900015468644000002L042*@MHS> Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 15:22:57 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; name="MEMO 01/26/01 15:11:58" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline X-Mailing-List: X-Loop: rem-conf@es.net Precedence: list rhee@togabi.com wrote: > Well, I disagree about MPEG-4 being so error-resilient codec for IP. > But it is, we have implemented the Video Packet stuff and made various demos at conferences and trade shows that clearly show that it makes an enormous difference ! > > We are here talking about IP networks (including wireless IP networks= ). > > In IP, a lot of MPEG-4 error resilient tools are not useful. For inst= ance, > data partitioning, RVLC, and resynchronization are not going to be us= eful. > This is because packets with bit errors will be simply discarded befo= re > delivered to applications. In addition, those MPEG-4 tools that do wo= rk in > IP such as NEWPRED and Error Tracking cannot be used for stored video= or > multicast --this is because they need real-time encoders. agreed, you dont get bit errors, only packet losses so forget RVLC but: - why do you exclude Data Partitioning (DP) ? it requires a smart encod= er and the ability to interleave in the RTP payload format but it is very useful ! - we have a real time encoder and for broadcasting (multicasting) we could use RTCP receiver reports to feedback on the encoder, like increasing the redundancy on critical DP when network condition degrades. -- Philippe Gentric Software Architect PHILIPS DIGITAL NETWORKS Broadcast & Internet Delivery Solutions Laboratoires d'Electronique Philips B.P. 15 - 22, Av. Descartes 94453 Limeil-Brevannes Cedex France Phone : 33 (0)1 45 10 68 12 Fax : 33 (0)1 45 10 69 60 philippe.gentric@philips.com = From rem-conf Fri Jan 26 10:14:58 2001 From rem-conf-request@es.net Fri Jan 26 10:14:58 2001 Received: from list by mail1.es.net with local (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14MDIN-0000B6-00; Fri, 26 Jan 2001 10:08:23 -0800 Received: from smtp.bellnexxia.net (tomts6-srv.bellnexxia.net) [209.226.175.26] by mail1.es.net with esmtp (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14MDIL-0000Ai-00; Fri, 26 Jan 2001 10:08:21 -0800 Received: from ece.ubc.ca ([207.35.32.98]) by tomts6-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.4.01.03.00 201-229-121) with ESMTP id <20010126180720.QCAP11735.tomts6-srv.bellnexxia.net@ece.ubc.ca>; Fri, 26 Jan 2001 13:07:20 -0500 Message-ID: <3A71BD4E.5235C701@ece.ubc.ca> Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 10:09:18 -0800 From: Mohamed Cherif X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Gary Sullivan CC: "'itu-adv-video@standard.pictel.com'" , "'rem-conf@es.net'" Subject: Re: [VCEG] FW: H261 compressed streams References: <33D69E5EAD06364FB98F3562E62ACE89025457FF@red-msg-02.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=x-user-defined Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailing-List: X-Loop: rem-conf@es.net Precedence: list Dear Gary et al., Thanks for the kind reply and help. For some reason, I wasn't able to access the site you pointed to. I did access part of it as of last night, but this morning it's all shut down. In both times, I didn't access any code or any compressed H261 streams. Any hint? I appreciate very much all your help and effort. Thanks a lot, Mohamed Gary Sullivan wrote: > Mohamed et al, > > There is software and a sample bitstream now > available in ftp://standard.pictel.com/video-site/h261 > > (A thank-you goes to K.-y. Yoo.) > > Best Wishes, > > Gary Sullivan > > +> -----Original Message----- > +> From: Gary Sullivan > +> Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2001 5:25 PM > +> To: 'itu-adv-video@standard.pictel.com' > +> Cc: 'mohamedc@ece.ubc.ca' > +> Subject: [VCEG] FW: H261 compressed streams > +> > +> > +> ITU-T Video Coding Experts Group (VCEG) [Q.6/SG16] > +> Email from Gary Sullivan : > +> > +> > +> It's kind of strange that I believe we don't have any H.261 > +> bitstreams > +> on our ftp site (note: that's a "one", not an "L").  That > +> standard is still > +> required for video in H.320, H.323, and H.324.  Can anyone provide > +> a couple? > +> > +> -Gary S. > +> > +> -----Original Message----- > +> From: Mohamed Cherif [mailto:mohamedc@ece.ubc.ca] > +> Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2001 5:11 PM > +> To: rem-conf@es.net > +> Subject: H261 compressed streams > +> > +> > +> Dear all, > +> I'm looking for H261 compressed streams. Any help? > +> Thank you very much. > +> Mohamed > +> > +> > +> > +> ------------------------------------------------------------- > +> ------------------- > +> *** ITU-T Video Coding Experts Group (VCEG) [Q.6/SG16] Email > +> List Message *** > +> To send messages, address them to > +> "itu-adv-video@standard.pictel.com". > +> To subscribe or unsubscribe, send email to > +> "majordomo@standard.pictel.com". > +> Note: Only people whose exact email address is subscribed to > +> the list can post. > +> Subscriptions:   "subscribe itu-adv-video > +> YOUR-EMAIL-ADDRESS" in message body. > +> Unsubscriptions: "unsubscribe itu-adv-video > +> YOUR-EMAIL-ADDRESS" in message body. > +> ------------------------------------------------------------- > +> ------------------- > +> From rem-conf Fri Jan 26 11:23:24 2001 From rem-conf-request@es.net Fri Jan 26 11:23:23 2001 Received: from list by mail1.es.net with local (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14MENm-0002gD-00; Fri, 26 Jan 2001 11:18:02 -0800 Received: from ftpbox.mot.com [129.188.136.101] by mail1.es.net with esmtp (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14MENk-0002g3-00; Fri, 26 Jan 2001 11:18:00 -0800 Received: [from pobox4.mot.com (pobox4.mot.com [10.64.251.243]) by ftpbox.mot.com (ftpbox 2.1) with ESMTP id MAA02211; Fri, 26 Jan 2001 12:17:51 -0700 (MST)] Received: [from relay2.cig.mot.com (relay2.cig.mot.com [136.182.15.24]) by pobox4.mot.com (MOT-pobox4 2.0) with ESMTP id MAA14107; Fri, 26 Jan 2001 12:17:50 -0700 (MST)] Received: from agevole.cig.mot.com (agevole [136.182.3.251]) by relay2.cig.mot.com (8.9.0/SCERG-RELAY-1.11b) with ESMTP id NAA17253; Fri, 26 Jan 2001 13:17:50 -0600 (CST) Received: from cig.mot.com (d42-50cf.cig.mot.com [160.15.80.207]) by agevole.cig.mot.com (8.7.5 Motorola CIG/ITS v1.1 (Solaris 2.5)) with ESMTP id NAA05554; Fri, 26 Jan 2001 13:17:49 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <200101261917.NAA05554@agevole.cig.mot.com> Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 13:22:38 -0600 From: Qiaobing Xie X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: philippe.gentric@philips.com CC: rhee@togabi.com, rem-conf@es.net, sliang@DSG.Stanford.EDU Subject: Re: tolerable packet loss rate for streaming video/audio applications References: <0056900015468644000002L042*@MHS> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailing-List: X-Loop: rem-conf@es.net Precedence: list ... > > > > We are here talking about IP networks (including wireless IP networks). > > > > In IP, a lot of MPEG-4 error resilient tools are not useful. For instance, > > data partitioning, RVLC, and resynchronization are not going to be useful. > > This is because packets with bit errors will be simply discarded before > > delivered to applications. But there do exist links (especially in wireless networks) that can benefit from error tolerant delivery of media packets. For instance, if one wants to send MPEG-4/RTP/IP packets over an air link, he probably would not want to pay the penalty retransmitting a bit error damaged packet over the air link or the overhead of FEC, nor does he want to discard the damaged payload if it can still be used by the decoder for error cancealment. air ---------- link ----- /----------\ ---------- |decoder | <------ |BTS |==| IP network |==| encoder| ---------- ----- \----------/ ---------- -Qiaobing Xie From rem-conf Fri Jan 26 11:31:09 2001 From rem-conf-request@es.net Fri Jan 26 11:31:09 2001 Received: from list by mail1.es.net with local (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14MEUo-0002xc-00; Fri, 26 Jan 2001 11:25:18 -0800 Received: from issmtp01.interpath.net [216.48.1.21] by mail1.es.net with esmtp (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14MEUm-0002xI-00; Fri, 26 Jan 2001 11:25:17 -0800 Received: from rolex ([199.72.92.34]) by issmtp01.interpath.net (Netscape Messaging Server 3.61) with SMTP id AAA6BD0; Fri, 26 Jan 2001 14:25:10 -0500 Reply-To: From: "Injong Rhee" To: "Qiaobing Xie" , Cc: , , Subject: RE: tolerable packet loss rate for streaming video/audio applications Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 14:26:29 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <200101261917.NAA05554@agevole.cig.mot.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 X-Mailing-List: X-Loop: rem-conf@es.net Precedence: list Well, those are not MPEG-4 features. Those are link-level solutions. Are you saying with such link level solutions, the apps do not see packet losses. My point is that Applications don't see any damaged packets! -----Original Message----- From: Qiaobing Xie [mailto:xieqb@cig.mot.com] Sent: Friday, January 26, 2001 2:23 PM To: philippe.gentric@philips.com Cc: rhee@togabi.com; rem-conf@es.net; sliang@DSG.Stanford.EDU Subject: Re: tolerable packet loss rate for streaming video/audio applications ... > > > > We are here talking about IP networks (including wireless IP networks). > > > > In IP, a lot of MPEG-4 error resilient tools are not useful. For instance, > > data partitioning, RVLC, and resynchronization are not going to be useful. > > This is because packets with bit errors will be simply discarded before > > delivered to applications. But there do exist links (especially in wireless networks) that can benefit from error tolerant delivery of media packets. For instance, if one wants to send MPEG-4/RTP/IP packets over an air link, he probably would not want to pay the penalty retransmitting a bit error damaged packet over the air link or the overhead of FEC, nor does he want to discard the damaged payload if it can still be used by the decoder for error cancealment. air ---------- link ----- /----------\ ---------- |decoder | <------ |BTS |==| IP network |==| encoder| ---------- ----- \----------/ ---------- -Qiaobing Xie From rem-conf Fri Jan 26 12:43:58 2001 From rem-conf-request@es.net Fri Jan 26 12:43:58 2001 Received: from list by mail1.es.net with local (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14MFdC-0005kH-00; Fri, 26 Jan 2001 12:38:02 -0800 Received: from motgate2.mot.com [136.182.1.10] by mail1.es.net with esmtp (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14MFdA-0005k7-00; Fri, 26 Jan 2001 12:38:01 -0800 Received: [from pobox.mot.com (pobox.mot.com [129.188.137.100]) by motgate2.mot.com (motgate2 2.1) with ESMTP id NAA18194 for ; Fri, 26 Jan 2001 13:37:59 -0700 (MST)] Received: [from relay2.cig.mot.com (relay2.cig.mot.com [136.182.15.24]) by pobox.mot.com (MOT-pobox 2.0) with ESMTP id NAA17683 for ; Fri, 26 Jan 2001 13:37:58 -0700 (MST)] Received: from agevole.cig.mot.com (agevole [136.182.3.251]) by relay2.cig.mot.com (8.9.0/SCERG-RELAY-1.11b) with ESMTP id OAA26738; Fri, 26 Jan 2001 14:37:57 -0600 (CST) Received: from cig.mot.com (d42-50cf.cig.mot.com [160.15.80.207]) by agevole.cig.mot.com (8.7.5 Motorola CIG/ITS v1.1 (Solaris 2.5)) with ESMTP id OAA06262; Fri, 26 Jan 2001 14:37:56 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <200101262037.OAA06262@agevole.cig.mot.com> Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 14:42:45 -0600 From: Qiaobing Xie X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rhee@togabi.com CC: Qiaobing Xie , philippe.gentric@philips.com, rem-conf@es.net, sliang@DSG.Stanford.EDU Subject: Re: tolerable packet loss rate for streaming video/audio applications References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailing-List: X-Loop: rem-conf@es.net Precedence: list Injong Rhee wrote: > > Well, those are not MPEG-4 features. Those are link-level solutions. Are you > saying with such link level solutions, the apps do not see packet losses. My > point is that Applications don't see any damaged packets! But this is based upon the assumption that the link layer or the transport layer will through them away. What if they don't? > > -----Original Message----- > From: Qiaobing Xie [mailto:xieqb@cig.mot.com] > Sent: Friday, January 26, 2001 2:23 PM > To: philippe.gentric@philips.com > Cc: rhee@togabi.com; rem-conf@es.net; sliang@DSG.Stanford.EDU > Subject: Re: tolerable packet loss rate for streaming video/audio > applications > > ... > > > > > > We are here talking about IP networks (including wireless IP networks). > > > > > > In IP, a lot of MPEG-4 error resilient tools are not useful. For > instance, > > > data partitioning, RVLC, and resynchronization are not going to be > useful. > > > This is because packets with bit errors will be simply discarded before > > > delivered to applications. > > But there do exist links (especially in wireless networks) that can > benefit from error tolerant delivery of media packets. For instance, if > one wants to send MPEG-4/RTP/IP packets over an air link, he probably > would not want to pay the penalty retransmitting a bit error damaged > packet over the air link or the overhead of FEC, nor does he want to > discard the damaged payload if it can still be used by the decoder for > error cancealment. > > air > ---------- link ----- /----------\ ---------- > |decoder | <------ |BTS |==| IP network |==| encoder| > ---------- ----- \----------/ ---------- > > -Qiaobing Xie From rem-conf Sat Jan 27 07:53:05 2001 From rem-conf-request@es.net Sat Jan 27 07:53:05 2001 Received: from list by mail1.es.net with local (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14MXQ4-0000nI-00; Sat, 27 Jan 2001 07:37:40 -0800 Received: from (www.jowoo.co.kr) [210.111.34.36] by mail1.es.net with esmtp (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14MXPy-0000n8-00; Sat, 27 Jan 2001 07:37:38 -0800 Received: from [10.14.21.129] (1Cust8.tnt8.ewr3.da.uu.net [63.44.43.8]) by www.jowoo.co.kr (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id AAA08912; Sun, 28 Jan 2001 00:39:27 +0900 From: ikghhjkgj@szm.sk Message-ID: <00007b7c2556$00000ae1$0000787c@[10.14.21.129]> To: Subject: Save On Your Life Insurance FREE Quote! 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Make payable to: "CEM-Marketing" ***************************************************************** All REMOVE requests are AUTOMATICALLY honored upon receipt. mailto:nomore@1033edge.com?subject=Remove PLEASE understand that any effort to disrupt, close or block this REMOVE account can only result in difficulties for others wanting to be removed from our mailing list. ***************************************************************** From rem-conf Sun Jan 28 21:10:20 2001 From rem-conf-request@es.net Sun Jan 28 21:10:20 2001 Received: from list by mail1.es.net with local (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14N6Mn-0006yc-00; Sun, 28 Jan 2001 20:56:37 -0800 Received: from purple.east.isi.edu [38.245.76.9] by mail1.es.net with esmtp (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14N6Mk-0006yS-00; Sun, 28 Jan 2001 20:56:35 -0800 Received: from purple.east.isi.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by purple.east.isi.edu (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA16382; Sun, 28 Jan 2001 22:18:01 -0500 Message-Id: <200101290318.WAA16382@purple.east.isi.edu> To: rem-conf@es.net Subject: WG last call: draft-ietf-avt-rtp-amr-03.txt cc: casner@acm.org Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 22:18:01 -0500 From: Colin Perkins X-Mailing-List: X-Loop: rem-conf@es.net Precedence: list To the AVT working group, This is to announce a two week working group last call on the RTP payload format for AMR speech . Comments should be sent to the AVT working group's mailing list and/or the authors. If no substantive comments are received by 11th February 2001, we plan to submit this draft for publication as a proposed standard RFC. Colin From rem-conf Sun Jan 28 23:52:51 2001 From rem-conf-request@es.net Sun Jan 28 23:52:50 2001 Received: from list by mail1.es.net with local (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14N93P-0003zj-00; Sun, 28 Jan 2001 23:48:47 -0800 Received: from (sktelecom.com) [203.236.1.20] by mail1.es.net with esmtp (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14N93N-0003yW-00; Sun, 28 Jan 2001 23:48:45 -0800 Received: from skt (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sktelecom.com (8.10.1/8.10.1) with SMTP id f0T7oST03350 for ; Mon, 29 Jan 2001 16:50:29 +0900 (KST) Message-ID: <00a601c089c7$a4999640$29181796@sktelecom.com> From: =?iso-8859-1?B?wMy9wsHY?= To: References: Subject: Re: tolerable packet loss rate for streaming video/audio applications Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 16:46:51 +0900 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 X-Mailing-List: X-Loop: 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Received: from list by mail1.es.net with local (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14N9ad-0005f7-00; Mon, 29 Jan 2001 00:23:07 -0800 Received: from albatross-ext.wise.edt.ericsson.se [194.237.142.116] by mail1.es.net with esmtp (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14N9ab-0005eN-00; Mon, 29 Jan 2001 00:23:06 -0800 Received: from lms001.lu.erisoft.se (lms001.lu.erisoft.se [150.132.144.19]) by albatross.wise.edt.ericsson.se (8.11.0/8.11.0/WIREfire-1.3) with ESMTP id f0T8N1C12617; Mon, 29 Jan 2001 09:23:02 +0100 (MET) Received: by lms001.lu.erisoft.se id JAA21375; Mon, 29 Jan 2001 09:23:00 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <001a01c089cc$afe92600$47b18496@e00008639f5da.epl.ericsson.se> From: "Lars-Erik Jonsson" To: "=?iso-8859-1?B?wMy9wsHY?=" , Subject: Re: tolerable packet loss rate for streaming video/audio applications Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 09:22:57 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3612.1700 X-Mailing-List: X-Loop: rem-conf@es.net Precedence: list UDP Lite is only an internet draft yet. However, it is now a work item of the Transport WG. /L-E >I'd like to know the standardization status of udp-lite >: has it become an RFC or is it still an internet draft ? >Can anybody help ? >Thanks. > >Seung. > >----- Original Message ----- >From: Injong Rhee >To: ; >Cc: >Sent: Friday, January 26, 2001 6:50 AM >Subject: RE: tolerable packet loss rate for streaming video/audio applications > > >> Well, I disagree about MPEG-4 being so error-resilient codec for IP. >> >> We are here talking about IP networks (including wireless IP networks). >> >> In IP, a lot of MPEG-4 error resilient tools are not useful. For instance, >> data partitioning, RVLC, and resynchronization are not going to be useful. >> This is because packets with bit errors will be simply discarded before >> delivered to applications. In addition, those MPEG-4 tools that do work in >> IP such as NEWPRED and Error Tracking cannot be used for stored video or >> multicast --this is because they need real-time encoders. >> >> What do you need is much more than what MPEG-4 has. Some companies are >> saying they have error concealment to solve the packet losses. But let's >> face it. Error concealment is not going to work well either unless you have >> a good error isolation technique (such as RVLC, data partitioning, etc). But >> in IP world (at least where we are RIGHT NOW), those do not work. Therefore, >> error concealment is also out to door. >> >> If you are talking about UDP-lite or some other variant of transport >> mechanisms, then you are opening another can of worms. >> >> Injong Rhee >> Togabi Tecnologies, INC >> www.togabi.com >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: philippe.gentric@philips.com [mailto:philippe.gentric@philips.com] >> Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2001 1:30 PM >> To: sliang@DSG.Stanford.EDU >> Cc: rem-conf@es.net >> Subject: Re: tolerable packet loss rate for streaming video/audio >> applications >> >> >> tme@21rst-century.com wrote: >> >> > Sam Liang wrote: >> > > >> > > Hello, >> > > >> > > I am wondering what the typical packet loss rate that can be tolerated >> > > by a video-streaming and audio-streaming application? Can anybody give >> me >> > > any references of such study? >> > > >> > > Thanks, >> > > >> > > Sam >> > >> > Dear Sam; >> > >> > For many video applications 1% is too high. There was a talk about this >> > at the >> > last Internet 2 meeting in Atlanta from >> > Mike Gill and Victor Reijs of NIH <>HEAnet. They concluded that, >> > using MPEG-2 codecs at each end 1.5 to 15 mbps, low latency video, >> > more than 1% loss destroys acceptable MPEG-2 video >> >> That is because MPEG-2 video was not designed to work on lossy >> networks at all. >> >> MPEG-4 video is *completely* different: it was designed and tested >> for lossy conditions and will provide acceptable quality >> (quantification of acceptable requires user tests) for quite >> large error/loss rates, certainely MUCH larger than 1% !! >> >> The document: >> >> http://www.ccir.ed.ac.uk/mpeg4/documents/w1808.zip >> >> gives you an idea of the kind of very extensive studies and work >> that has been done on MPEG-4 video. >> >> Regards, >> >> -- >> Philippe Gentric >> Software Architect >> PHILIPS DIGITAL NETWORKS >> Broadcast & Internet Delivery Solutions >> Laboratoires d'Electronique Philips >> B.P. 15 - 22, Av. Descartes >> 94453 Limeil-Brevannes Cedex France >> Phone : 33 (0)1 45 10 68 12 >> Fax : 33 (0)1 45 10 69 60 >> philippe.gentric@philips.com >> >> >> >> >> >> > > From rem-conf Mon Jan 29 05:37:01 2001 From rem-conf-request@es.net Mon Jan 29 05:36:59 2001 Received: from list by mail1.es.net with local (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14NEOA-0006Dg-00; Mon, 29 Jan 2001 05:30:34 -0800 Received: from (peacesoft.anyang.ac.kr) [203.232.134.146] (root) by mail1.es.net with esmtp (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14NEO8-0006BQ-00; Mon, 29 Jan 2001 05:30:32 -0800 Received: from notdoori ([203.232.134.139]) by peacesoft.anyang.ac.kr (8.10.1/8.10.1) with SMTP id f0TDZ7s06408 for ; Mon, 29 Jan 2001 22:35:07 +0900 Message-ID: <004001c089f8$20dfb380$8b86e8cb@anyang.ac.kr> From: "InSoon Lee" To: Subject: Problem of Speech communication Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 22:33:56 +0900 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_003D_01C08A43.90AEF180" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Mailing-List: X-Loop: rem-conf@es.net Precedence: list This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003D_01C08A43.90AEF180 Content-Type: text/plain; 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Mon, 29 Jan 2001 10:53:24 -0800 Received: from motgate.mot.com [129.188.136.100] by mail1.es.net with esmtp (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14NJQX-0006n0-00; Mon, 29 Jan 2001 10:53:21 -0800 Received: [from mothost.mot.com (mothost.mot.com [129.188.137.101]) by motgate.mot.com (motgate 2.1) with ESMTP id LAA03508; Mon, 29 Jan 2001 11:53:19 -0700 (MST)] Received: [from relay1.cig.mot.com (relay1.cig.mot.com [136.182.15.23]) by mothost.mot.com (MOT-mothost 2.0) with ESMTP id LAA27053; Mon, 29 Jan 2001 11:53:18 -0700 (MST)] Received: from agevole.cig.mot.com (agevole [136.182.3.251]) by relay1.cig.mot.com (8.8.8+Sun/SCERG-RELAY-1.11b) with ESMTP id MAA25770; Mon, 29 Jan 2001 12:53:16 -0600 (CST) Received: from cig.mot.com (d42-506b.cig.mot.com [160.15.80.107]) by agevole.cig.mot.com (8.7.5 Motorola CIG/ITS v1.1 (Solaris 2.5)) with ESMTP id MAA15200; Mon, 29 Jan 2001 12:53:16 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <200101291853.MAA15200@agevole.cig.mot.com> Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 12:58:21 -0600 From: Qiaobing Xie X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=C0=CC=BD=C2=C1=D8?= CC: rem-conf@es.net Subject: Re: tolerable packet loss rate for streaming video/audio applications References: <00a601c089c7$a4999640$29181796@sktelecom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by motgate.mot.com id LAA03508 X-Mailing-List: X-Loop: rem-conf@es.net Precedence: list U-SCTP (now a work item in Sigtran WG) is another general transport layer proposal which can perform partial checksum on its payload data. Whether it is suitable for carrying RTP packets is of cause something needing feather investigation. -Qiaobing Xie =C0=CC=BD=C2=C1=D8 wrote: >=20 > I'd like to know the standardization status of udp-lite > : has it become an RFC or is it still an internet draft ? > Can anybody help ? > Thanks. >=20 > Seung. >=20 > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Injong Rhee > To: ; > Cc: > Sent: Friday, January 26, 2001 6:50 AM > Subject: RE: tolerable packet loss rate for streaming video/audio appli= cations >=20 > > Well, I disagree about MPEG-4 being so error-resilient codec for IP. > > > > We are here talking about IP networks (including wireless IP networks= ). > > > > In IP, a lot of MPEG-4 error resilient tools are not useful. For inst= ance, > > data partitioning, RVLC, and resynchronization are not going to be us= eful. > > This is because packets with bit errors will be simply discarded befo= re > > delivered to applications. In addition, those MPEG-4 tools that do wo= rk in > > IP such as NEWPRED and Error Tracking cannot be used for stored video= or > > multicast --this is because they need real-time encoders. > > > > What do you need is much more than what MPEG-4 has. Some companies ar= e > > saying they have error concealment to solve the packet losses. But le= t's > > face it. Error concealment is not going to work well either unless yo= u have > > a good error isolation technique (such as RVLC, data partitioning, et= c). But > > in IP world (at least where we are RIGHT NOW), those do not work. The= refore, > > error concealment is also out to door. > > > > If you are talking about UDP-lite or some other variant of transport > > mechanisms, then you are opening another can of worms. > > > > Injong Rhee > > Togabi Tecnologies, INC > > www.togabi.com > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: philippe.gentric@philips.com [mailto:philippe.gentric@philips.c= om] > > Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2001 1:30 PM > > To: sliang@DSG.Stanford.EDU > > Cc: rem-conf@es.net > > Subject: Re: tolerable packet loss rate for streaming video/audio > > applications > > > > > > tme@21rst-century.com wrote: > > > > > Sam Liang wrote: > > > > > > > > Hello, > > > > > > > > I am wondering what the typical packet loss rate that can be to= lerated > > > > by a video-streaming and audio-streaming application? Can anybod= y give > > me > > > > any references of such study? > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > Sam > > > > > > Dear Sam; > > > > > > For many video applications 1% is too high. There was a talk about = this > > > at the > > > last Internet 2 meeting in Atlanta from > > > Mike Gill and Victor Reijs of NIH <>HEAnet. They concluded that, > > > using MPEG-2 codecs at each end 1.5 to 15 mbps, low latency video, > > > more than 1% loss destroys acceptable MPEG-2 video > > > > That is because MPEG-2 video was not designed to work on lossy > > networks at all. > > > > MPEG-4 video is *completely* different: it was designed and tested > > for lossy conditions and will provide acceptable quality > > (quantification of acceptable requires user tests) for quite > > large error/loss rates, certainely MUCH larger than 1% !! > > > > The document: > > > > http://www.ccir.ed.ac.uk/mpeg4/documents/w1808.zip > > > > gives you an idea of the kind of very extensive studies and work > > that has been done on MPEG-4 video. > > > > Regards, > > > > -- > > Philippe Gentric > > Software Architect > > PHILIPS DIGITAL NETWORKS > > Broadcast & Internet Delivery Solutions > > Laboratoires d'Electronique Philips > > B.P. 15 - 22, Av. Descartes > > 94453 Limeil-Brevannes Cedex France > > Phone : 33 (0)1 45 10 68 12 > > Fax : 33 (0)1 45 10 69 60 > > philippe.gentric@philips.com > > > > > > > > > > > > From rem-conf Mon Jan 29 11:18:33 2001 From rem-conf-request@es.net Mon Jan 29 11:18:32 2001 Received: from list by mail1.es.net with local (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14NJlA-0007cO-00; Mon, 29 Jan 2001 11:14:40 -0800 Received: from (gukwon.chungju.ac.kr) [210.119.144.5] by mail1.es.net with smtp (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14NJl5-0007bF-00; Mon, 29 Jan 2001 11:14:35 -0800 Received: by gukwon.chungju.ac.kr id AB30906; Tue, 30 Jan 2001 04:26:41 +0900 Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 04:26:41 +0900 From: Received: from login_011556.wgukels.com (mail.wgukels.com [233.214.241.87]) by (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id XAA08677 for fraklin321@thahlhklo.um.de; Sun, 28 January 2001 14:49:52 -0700 (EDT) To: marketing_55@arch.kth.se Subject: RELEASED Jan. 8, 2001 Millions CD VOL 14 OUR BIGGEST & BEST EVER!!! Reply-To: X-Pmflags: 457925.4583.159711.657 X-Uidl: 4747531594115680_73211.105 Comments: Authenticated Sender is Message-Id: 022021087226548796176@sa_gxjdy.un.de Content-Length: 12888 X-Mailing-List: X-Loop: rem-conf@es.net Precedence: list OUR BIGGEST VOLUME EVER. . . . 3 YEARS RUNNING! THE MILLIONS CD - VOL. 14 >>> 19 MILLION NEW Addresses - Just Released! <<< THE VERY BEST email addresses available anywhere!! Our research has found that many people have tried one or more of the following... Free Classifieds? (Don't work) Web Site? (Takes thousands of visitors) Banners? (Expensive and iffy) E-Zine? (They better have a huge list) Search Engines? (Easily buried with thousands of others) S O W H A T D O E S W O R K ? Although often misunderstood, there is one method that has proven to succeed time-after-time. E - M A I L M A R K E T I N G ! ! It's a fact! If you're not using your computer to generate income, you're leaving money on the table. Here's what the experts have to say about E-Mail Marketing: "A gold mine for those who can take advantage of bulk e-mail programs" - The New York Times "E-mail is an incredible lead generation tool" -Crains Magazine "Blows away traditional Mailing" - Advertising Age Here is an example of your potential earnings if you have a product that brings you a profit of around $30. Remember, on the Internet, you can make money 7 days a week, 24 hours a day... even while you sleep, orders come from all over the world! Orders Per Day Weekly Earnings / Monthly Earnings / Yearly Earnings 1 $210.00 $840.00 $10,080.00 2 $420.00 $1,680.00 $20,160.00 3 $630.00 $2,520.00 $30,240.00 5 $1,050.00 $4,200.00 $50,400.00 10 $2,100.00 $8,400.00 $100,000.00 15 $3,150.00 $12,600.00 $151,200.00 THE QUESTION IS... how do you generate those orders? THE MILLIONS CD - VOL. 14 The Millions CD - VOL. 14, is the ABSOLUTE BEST product of its kind anywhere in the world today. There are NO OTHER products ANYWHERE that can compete with the quality of this CD. O N E O F A K I N D This CD is a first. No one... and we mean NO ONE has put in the kind of work it takes to produce a CD of this quality. We've been in the list brokerage business for over 5 years and we've never compromised on quality. We won't release any address list until it passes our "high standards" test. Our claim to fame, is that our addresses are deliverable! The number #1 problem with email lists are deliverability. You may have seen dozens of ads for lists or CD's or you may have purchased a list in the past. Chances are, the list was produced 6 months, 1 year or even two years ago! Not ours, a new volume CD comes out every 6-7 weeks. Here's how we prepare our e-mail lists: 1. We clean and eliminate all duplicates. 2. Next, we use a filter list of 400+ words/phrases to clean even more. No address with inappropriate or profane wording survive! 3. Then, a special filter file is used to eliminate the "Web Poisoned" e-mail addresses from the list. Our EXCLUSIVE system reduced these "poison" addresses to near zero. You may have seen CD's with 30, 40, 50 million addresses, not only do they contain may undeliverable addresses, but most are notorious for millions of these "poisoned" email addresses. 4. Next we used our private database of thousands of known "extremists" and kicked off every one we could find. NOTE: We maintain the world's largest list of individuals and groups that are opposed to any kind of commercial e-marketing... they are gone, nuked! 5. We sorted the list into easy-to-manage packets of 20,000 addresses in a simple text (.txt) format. 6. All domains have been verified as valid. WHAT DID WE END UP WITH? Volume 14... 19 Million Addresses Strong! * N O B R A G - J U S T F A C T * Getting this CD is equivalent to buying EVERY CD sold by almost everyone else, combined... EXCEPT - it has been cleaned and the quality is unsurpassed by any list in existence! With our super clean lists you'll send less...and get better results... plus you can start mailing as soon as you receive your CD! * Y O U G E T W H A T Y O U P A Y F O R * Our 19 Million, Volume 14, address CD will result in: * Higher Response Rates * Higher Sales Conversion Ratios * More Receptive prospects; Less Flames & Non-Buyers. * Less Contact With Anti-Commerce Radicals & Extremists. Remember that potential income chart at the beginning of this message? Can you imagine the kind of money you could make if you mailed one million pieces and sold only one tenth (.01%) of one percent? You do the math, you'll be amazed! This product will prove to be the best of it's kind compared to ANY CD in terms of hours and money spent bringing it to market. No competitor will ever duplicate the effort of what it takes for us to produce this superb product. 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If you have any further questions or to place an order, you can call us toll free and direct at: 1-888-800-6339 ext. 1010 __________________________________________ To order, via credit card simply cut/paste and print out the EZ ORDER FORM below and fax to our office today. ***** MILLIONS CD - VOLUME 14 ***** ***** NOW ONLY $247! ***** This "Special Price" is in effect for the next seven days, after that we go back to our regular price of $299.00 ... Don't delay... you can be in business tomorrow! We accept Visa, Mastercard, Amex and Checks by Fax. ----------------------Cut & Paste---------------------- ---------------------EZ Order Form--------------------- _____Yes! I want everything! I am ordering within 72 hours. Include my FREE "Business On A Disk" bonus along with your 19 Million Vol. 14 E-Mail address CD for the special price of only $247.00 + shipping as indicated below. _____Yes! I missed the 72 hour special, but I am ordering Vol. 14, super clean e-mail addresses within 7 days for the "special" price of only $247.00 + s&h. _____Oop's I missed the 72 hour and 7 day "specials". I am ordering Vol. 14 at the regular price of $299.00 + s&h. ***PLEASE SELECT YOUR SHIPPING OPTION*** ____I would like to receive my package FedEx OVERNIGHT. I am including $15 for shipping. (Hawaii & Alaska $20 - Canada $25, all other International add an *additional* $25 [$40 total] for shipping) ____I would like to receive my package FedEx 2 DAY delivery. I'm including $10 for shipping. (Sorry no Canada or International delivery - Continental U.S. shipping addresses only) ***Please Print Carefully*** NOTE: Orders cannot be shipped without complete information including your signature. No exceptions! NAME____________________________________________________ COMPANY NAME____________________________________________ ADDRESS_________________________________________________ (FedEx can only ship to street addresses - no P.O. boxes) CITY, STATE, ZIP________________________________________ PHONE NUMBER____________________________________________ (required for shipping & tracking) EMAIL ADDRESS___________________________________________ (Print Carefully - required in case we have a question and to send you a confirmation that your order has been shipped) TYPE OF CREDIT CARD: ______VISA _____MASTERCARD ______AMEX CREDIT CARD# __________________________________________ EXPIRATION DATE________________________________________ NAME ON CARD___________________________________________ TOTAL AMOUNT (Including Shipping): $___________________ DATE:x__________________ (Required) SIGNATURE:x_________________________________ I understand that I am purchasing the Millions CD Vol. 14 e-mail address CD, and authorize the above charge to my credit card, the addresses are not rented, but are mine to use for my own mailing, over-and-over. Free bonuses are included, but cannot be considered part of the financial transaction. I understand that it is my responsibility to comply with any laws applicable to my local area. As with all software, once opened the CD may not be returned, however, if found defective it will be replaced with like product at no charge. You may fax your order to us at: 1-530-706-6578, if busy 1-720-222-2082 CHECK BY FAX SERVICES! If you would like to fax a check, paste your check below and fax it to our office along with the EZ Order Form forms to: 1-530-706-6578, if busy 1-720-222-2082 ********************************************************** ***24 HOUR FAX SERVICES*** PLEASE PASTE YOUR CHECK HERE AND FAX IT TO US AT 1-530-706-6578, if busy 1-720-222-2082 ********************************************************** If You fax a check, there is no need for you to mail the original. We will draft a new check, with the exact information from your original check. All checks will be held for bank clearance. (7-10 days) Make payable to: "EB Services" -=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-=-=-=Remove Instructions=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= ************************************************************** Do not reply to this message - To be removed from future mailings: mailto:bayway3333@usa.net?Subject=Remove ************************************************************** From rem-conf Mon Jan 29 16:23:34 2001 From rem-conf-request@es.net Mon Jan 29 16:23:33 2001 Received: from list by mail1.es.net with local (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14NOTi-0006Sd-00; Mon, 29 Jan 2001 16:16:58 -0800 Received: from (firewall.amwu.asn.au) [203.63.101.34] by mail1.es.net with esmtp (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14NOTZ-0006OW-00; Mon, 29 Jan 2001 16:16:51 -0800 Posted-Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 11:01:34 +1100 Received: from [203.159.160.19] by _[229.230.162.63]_by with SMTP id A109C29E0 Mon, 29 Jan 2001 17:13:17 PDT Subject: Offshore wealth Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain, charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 17:30:34 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by firewall.amwu.asn.au id LAA49148 Message-Id: From: goodfortune@libero.it Bcc: To: rem-conf@es.net X-Mailing-List: X-Loop: rem-conf@es.net Precedence: list Partners Wanted: =20 Open a secure offshore bank account with a minimum payment of $100.00 =20 Own an offshore MasterCard WITHOUT a social security number and WITHOUT a credit check =20 Develop a secondary offshore income of $500 to $5,000=20 a day or more - you decide!! =20 Unlimited global market, unlimited income, all confidential =20 You can: Eliminate your debt Secure your Assets=20 Retain ALL your hard earned money=20 And pass your wealth on to your heirs =20 The Super Rich have done this for years=85. Isn't it time you started? =20 For information, type "Offshore" in the subject line.=20 mailto:kayg18@excite.com?subject=3Dmoreinfo =20 ______________________________________________________ to be removed from this mailing list: mailto:seasonal21@excite.com?subject=3Dremove=20 =20 =20 From rem-conf Mon Jan 29 17:51:01 2001 From rem-conf-request@es.net Mon Jan 29 17:51:01 2001 Received: from list by mail1.es.net with local (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14NPje-00016e-00; Mon, 29 Jan 2001 17:37:30 -0800 Received: from dfw-smtpout2.email.verio.net [129.250.36.42] by mail1.es.net with esmtp (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14NPjX-000166-00; Mon, 29 Jan 2001 17:37:23 -0800 Received: from [129.250.38.64] (helo=dfw-mmp4.email.verio.net) by dfw-smtpout2.email.verio.net with esmtp id 14NPet-0002no-00; Tue, 30 Jan 2001 01:32:35 +0000 Received: from [206.133.83.14] (helo=localhost) by dfw-mmp4.email.verio.net with esmtp id 14NPdM-0003XE-00; Tue, 30 Jan 2001 01:31:00 +0000 X-Sender: misterprivacy@hushmail.com From: Dave To: "customer" Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 16:47:28 -0500 Subject: I could go to JAIL for selling this CD! 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charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 X-Mailing-List: X-Loop: rem-conf@es.net Precedence: list Hi Philippe, > -----Original Message----- > From: philippe.gentric@philips.com [mailto:philippe.gentric@philips.com] > Sent: Friday, January 26, 2001 9:23 AM > To: rhee@togabi.com > Cc: rem-conf@es.net; sliang@DSG.Stanford.EDU > Subject: Re: tolerable packet loss rate for streaming video/audio > applications > > > rhee@togabi.com wrote: > > > Well, I disagree about MPEG-4 being so error-resilient codec for IP. > > > > But it is, we have implemented the Video Packet stuff > and made various demos at conferences > and trade shows that clearly show that it > makes an enormous difference ! > Was it shown with losses? I might be different, but I doubt that makes a lot of difference. When losses are generated using bit errors with mpeg-4 bit error correction features (such as RVLC, data partitioning, resync marks), yea, the difference will be enormous. I believe you. However, losses are generated from routers ( as erasure of packets), I doubt any of those techniques will work! > > > > We are here talking about IP networks (including wireless IP networks). > > > > In IP, a lot of MPEG-4 error resilient tools are not useful. > For instance, > > data partitioning, RVLC, and resynchronization are not going to > be useful. > > This is because packets with bit errors will be simply discarded before > > delivered to applications. In addition, those MPEG-4 tools that > do work in > > IP such as NEWPRED and Error Tracking cannot be used for stored video or > > multicast --this is because they need real-time encoders. > > agreed, you dont get bit errors, only packet losses > so forget RVLC but: > > - why do you exclude Data Partitioning (DP) ? it requires a smart encoder > and the ability to interleave in the RTP payload format but it > is very useful ! Well, when I read the document you refer to, it says that data partitioning is applied to per packet meaning that within each packet, there is boundary (MBM) between motion and texture. Using RVLC, it can recover the motion info. In this senarios, i say it does not work in IP. > > - we have a real time encoder and for broadcasting (multicasting) > we could use RTCP receiver reports to feedback on the encoder, > like increasing the redundancy on critical DP when network condition > degrades. > I am afraid I am a little skeptical. The main problem is how to handle error propagation. Once you hit losses and you find forward error correction is not enough for those you are protecting with, what do you do? Once you get errors, the errors start propagating. FEC is most effective when you can predict the network behavior. However, the network isn't so predictable (to discuss this, it requires much more time, so I will simply state it here). You cannot totally rely on fec only. You need something else. If you are done with your fec implementation, I am curious to know the performance. another problem with fec is that it tends to be susceptable to burst losses. To avoid it, you probably need to add some delays between fec and data you are protecting with. Then it won't be real-time. > -- > Philippe Gentric > Software Architect > PHILIPS DIGITAL NETWORKS > Broadcast & Internet Delivery Solutions > Laboratoires d'Electronique Philips > B.P. 15 - 22, Av. Descartes > 94453 Limeil-Brevannes Cedex France > Phone : 33 (0)1 45 10 68 12 > Fax : 33 (0)1 45 10 69 60 > philippe.gentric@philips.com > > From rem-conf Mon Jan 29 20:15:40 2001 From rem-conf-request@es.net Mon Jan 29 20:15:40 2001 Received: from list by mail1.es.net with local (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14NS5r-0004MA-00; Mon, 29 Jan 2001 20:08:35 -0800 Received: from (mail.techway.co.kr) [211.172.232.147] by mail1.es.net with smtp (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14NS5p-0004Lu-00; Mon, 29 Jan 2001 20:08:33 -0800 Received: (qmail 10693 invoked from network); 30 Jan 2001 04:14:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO young) (211.172.236.159) by 211.172.232.147 with SMTP; 30 Jan 2001 04:14:08 -0000 Message-ID: <015601c08a72$0ac0b480$9fecacd3@techway.co.kr> From: "Young-Kwon LIM" To: , References: Subject: Re: tolerable packet loss rate for streaming video/audio applications Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 13:06:37 +0900 Organization: mp4cast MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 Disposition-Notification-To: "Young-Kwon LIM" X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 X-Mailing-List: X-Loop: rem-conf@es.net Precedence: list RGVhciBhbGwsDQoNCj4gPg0KPiA+IEJ1dCBpdCBpcywgd2UgaGF2ZSBpbXBsZW1lbnRlZCB0aGUg VmlkZW8gUGFja2V0IHN0dWZmDQo+ID4gYW5kIG1hZGUgdmFyaW91cyBkZW1vcyBhdCBjb25mZXJl bmNlcw0KPiA+IGFuZCB0cmFkZSBzaG93cyB0aGF0IGNsZWFybHkgc2hvdyB0aGF0IGl0DQo+ID4g bWFrZXMgYW4gZW5vcm1vdXMgZGlmZmVyZW5jZSAhDQo+ID4NCj4gDQo+IFdhcyBpdCBzaG93biB3 aXRoIGxvc3Nlcz8gSSBtaWdodCBiZSBkaWZmZXJlbnQsIGJ1dCBJIGRvdWJ0IHRoYXQgbWFrZXMg YSBsb3QNCj4gb2YgZGlmZmVyZW5jZS4gV2hlbiBsb3NzZXMgYXJlIGdlbmVyYXRlZCB1c2luZyBi aXQgZXJyb3JzIHdpdGggbXBlZy00IGJpdA0KPiBlcnJvciBjb3JyZWN0aW9uIGZlYXR1cmVzIChz dWNoIGFzIFJWTEMsIGRhdGEgcGFydGl0aW9uaW5nLCByZXN5bmMgbWFya3MpLA0KPiB5ZWEsIHRo ZSBkaWZmZXJlbmNlIHdpbGwgYmUgZW5vcm1vdXMuIEkgYmVsaWV2ZSB5b3UuIEhvd2V2ZXIsIGxv c3NlcyBhcmUNCj4gZ2VuZXJhdGVkIGZyb20gcm91dGVycyAoIGFzIGVyYXN1cmUgb2YgcGFja2V0 cyksIEkgZG91YnQgYW55IG9mIHRob3NlDQo+IHRlY2huaXF1ZXMgd2lsbCB3b3JrIQ0KPiANCg0K VmlkZW8gUGFrY2V0IGlzIGRldmVsb3BlZCBkZWZpbml0ZWx5IGZvciBwYWNrZXQgbG9zc2VzLiAN Ck90aGVyIHN0ZmYgeW91IG1lbnRpb25lZCwgUlZMQyBhbmQgRFAgYXJlIGRldmVsb3BlZCBmb3Ig Yml0IGVycm9ycy4NCkJ5IGludGVsbGlnZW50bHkgcGFja2luZyBudW1iZXIgb2YgVmlkZW8gUGFj a2V0cyBpbiBSVFAgcGF5bG9hZCBhbmQgZHVwbGljYXRlZCB0aGVtIHByb3Blcmx5IHlvdSBjYW4g cHJvdGVjdCBwYWNrZXQgZXJhc3VyZXMuDQoNCj4gDQo+IEkgYW0gYWZyYWlkIEkgYW0gYSBsaXR0 bGUgc2tlcHRpY2FsLiBUaGUgbWFpbiBwcm9ibGVtIGlzIGhvdyB0byBoYW5kbGUgZXJyb3INCj4g cHJvcGFnYXRpb24uIE9uY2UgeW91IGhpdCBsb3NzZXMgYW5kIHlvdSBmaW5kIGZvcndhcmQgZXJy b3IgY29ycmVjdGlvbiBpcw0KPiBub3QgZW5vdWdoIGZvciB0aG9zZSB5b3UgYXJlIHByb3RlY3Rp bmcgd2l0aCwgd2hhdCBkbyB5b3UgZG8/IE9uY2UgeW91IGdldA0KPiBlcnJvcnMsIHRoZSBlcnJv cnMgc3RhcnQgcHJvcGFnYXRpbmcuDQo+IA0KPiBGRUMgaXMgbW9zdCBlZmZlY3RpdmUgd2hlbiB5 b3UgY2FuIHByZWRpY3QgdGhlIG5ldHdvcmsgYmVoYXZpb3IuIEhvd2V2ZXIsDQo+IHRoZSBuZXR3 b3JrIGlzbid0IHNvIHByZWRpY3RhYmxlICh0byBkaXNjdXNzIHRoaXMsIGl0IHJlcXVpcmVzIG11 Y2ggbW9yZQ0KPiB0aW1lLCBzbyBJIHdpbGwgc2ltcGx5IHN0YXRlIGl0IGhlcmUpLiBZb3UgY2Fu bm90IHRvdGFsbHkgcmVseSBvbiBmZWMgb25seS4NCj4gWW91IG5lZWQgc29tZXRoaW5nIGVsc2Uu IElmIHlvdSBhcmUgZG9uZSB3aXRoIHlvdXIgZmVjIGltcGxlbWVudGF0aW9uLCBJIGFtDQo+IGN1 cmlvdXMgdG8ga25vdyB0aGUgcGVyZm9ybWFuY2UuDQoNCkNvbWJpbmluZyBGRUMgYW5kIFZQIHdp bGwgZ2l2ZSB5b3UgcXVpdGUgbmljZSByZXN1bHRzIGluIHJhbmRvbSBwYWNrZXQgbG9zcyBlbnZp cm9ubWVudC4NCg0KPiANCj4gYW5vdGhlciBwcm9ibGVtIHdpdGggZmVjIGlzIHRoYXQgaXQgdGVu ZHMgdG8gYmUgc3VzY2VwdGFibGUgdG8gYnVyc3QgbG9zc2VzLg0KPiBUbyBhdm9pZCBpdCwgeW91 IHByb2JhYmx5IG5lZWQgdG8gYWRkIHNvbWUgZGVsYXlzIGJldHdlZW4gZmVjIGFuZCBkYXRhIHlv dQ0KPiBhcmUgcHJvdGVjdGluZyB3aXRoLiBUaGVuIGl0IHdvbid0IGJlIHJlYWwtdGltZS4NCj4g DQoNCkkgZG9uJ3Qgc2VlIHRoZXJlIGlzIGFueSB0ZWNobmlxdWUgd29ya2luZyB3aXRoIGxvbmcg YnVyc3QgbG9zc2VzLg0KRXZlbiB3aXRoIGxvbmcgZGVsYXlzIGFuZCBwcmUtYnVmZmVyaW5nIHlv dSBtYXkgbm90IGJlIGFibGUgdG8gcmVjb3Zlci4NCkFkZGluZyBudW1iZXIgb2YgSW50cmEgZnJh bWVzIHdpbGwgb25seSBoZWxwLg0KDQpTaW5jZXJlbHksDQpZb3VuZy1Ld29uIExJTQ0K From rem-conf Mon Jan 29 20:52:13 2001 From rem-conf-request@es.net Mon Jan 29 20:52:12 2001 Received: from list by mail1.es.net with local (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14NSfn-0005sd-00; Mon, 29 Jan 2001 20:45:43 -0800 Received: from (nirvana.silver.ru) [212.188.56.66] by mail1.es.net with esmtp (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14NSfl-0005sT-00; Mon, 29 Jan 2001 20:45:41 -0800 Received: from zillo.silver.ru (zillo [212.188.56.65]) by nirvana.silver.ru (Postfix) with SMTP id 6A94D13C96; Tue, 30 Jan 2001 07:45:16 +0300 (MSK) Received: from 209.212.220.95 ([209.212.220.95]) by zillo.silver.ru (WinRoute Pro 4.1) with SMTP; Tue, 30 Jan 2001 07:46:19 +0300 To: tobaiwo52@ft.tuwien.ac.at From: tobaiwo52@ft.tuwien.ac.at (Steve S.) Comments: Authenticated sender is Subject: Confidential! Message-Id: <200101292805VAA40855@nbhgvfcr4s.silver.ru> Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 07:45:16 +0300 (MSK) X-Mailing-List: X-Loop: rem-conf@es.net Precedence: list INTERNATIONAL DRIVER'S LICENSE Need a new driver's license? Too many points or other trouble? Want a license that can never be suspended or revoked? Want ID for nightclubs or hotel check-in? Avoid tickets, fines, and mandatory driver's education. Protect your privacy, and hide your identity. The United Nations gave you the privilege to drive freely throughout the world! (Convention on International Road Traffic of September 19, 1949 & World Court Decision, The Hague, Netherlands, January 21, 1958) Take advantage of your rights. Order a valid International Driver's License that can never be suspended or revoked. Confidentiality assured. CALL NOW!!! 1-713-866-4056 To be removed>>>>>> pt_2003@mail.com 5031809119772697 From rem-conf Tue Jan 30 03:56:15 2001 From rem-conf-request@es.net Tue Jan 30 03:56:15 2001 Received: from list by mail1.es.net with local (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14NZBt-0006Gj-00; Tue, 30 Jan 2001 03:43:17 -0800 Received: from rurkiu.ernet.in (isc.rurkiu.ernet.in) [202.141.62.10] by mail1.es.net with smtp (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14NZBi-0006Ep-00; Tue, 30 Jan 2001 03:43:12 -0800 Received: from localhost by isc.rurkiu.ernet.in (5.65v4.0/1.1.19.2/19Jan00-1103AM) id AA30840; Tue, 30 Jan 2001 17:08:55 +0500 Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 17:08:55 +0500 (GMT+0500) From: Roopesh R Nair To: rem-conf@es.net Subject: Request for info on Video conferencing.... Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Mailing-List: X-Loop: rem-conf@es.net Precedence: list We are working on a project on developing video conferencing software.. please help us out by adding us to the mailing list roopesh & Ashish From rem-conf Tue Jan 30 07:57:10 2001 From rem-conf-request@es.net Tue Jan 30 07:57:10 2001 Received: from list by mail1.es.net with local (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14Nd3t-0004vu-00; Tue, 30 Jan 2001 07:51:17 -0800 Received: from gw-nl4.philips.com [212.153.190.6] by mail1.es.net with esmtp (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14Nd3r-0004vk-00; Tue, 30 Jan 2001 07:51:15 -0800 Received: from smtprelay-nl1.philips.com (localhost.philips.com [127.0.0.1]) by gw-nl4.philips.com with ESMTP id QAA08475; Tue, 30 Jan 2001 16:51:11 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from philippe.gentric@philips.com) From: philippe.gentric@philips.com Received: from smtprelay-eur1.philips.com(130.139.36.3) by gw-nl4.philips.com via mwrap (4.0a) id xma008461; Tue, 30 Jan 01 16:51:11 +0100 Received: from notessmtp-nl1.philips.com (notessmtp-nl1.philips.com [130.139.36.10]) by smtprelay-nl1.philips.com (8.9.3/8.8.5-1.2.2m-19990317) with ESMTP id QAA28970; Tue, 30 Jan 2001 16:51:08 +0100 (MET) Received: from EMLMS01.DIAMOND.PHILIPS.COM (emlms01sv1.diamond.philips.com [130.143.165.213]) by notessmtp-nl1.philips.com (8.9.3/8.8.5-1.2.2m-19990317) with ESMTP id QAA19069; Tue, 30 Jan 2001 16:51:06 +0100 (MET) Received: by EMLMS01.DIAMOND.PHILIPS.COM (Soft-Switch LMS 4.0) with snapi via EMEA1 id 0056900015535243; Tue, 30 Jan 2001 17:01:48 +0100 To: , Subject: Re: tolerable packet loss rate for streaming video/audio applications Message-ID: <0056900015535243000002L032*@MHS> Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 17:01:48 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; name="MEMO 01/30/01 16:42:27" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline X-Mailing-List: X-Loop: rem-conf@es.net Precedence: list rhee@togabi.com wrote: > > > rhee@togabi.com wrote: > > > > > Well, I disagree about MPEG-4 being so error-resilient codec for = IP. > > > > > > > But it is, we have implemented the Video Packet stuff > > and made various demos at conferences > > and trade shows that clearly show that it > > makes an enormous difference ! > > > > Was it shown with losses? yes ! > I might be different, but I doubt that makes a lot > of difference. But it does ! > When losses are generated using bit errors with mpeg-4 bit > error correction features (such as RVLC, data partitioning, resync ma= rks), > yea, the difference will be enormous. I believe you. However, losses = are > generated from routers ( as erasure of packets), I doubt any of those= > techniques will work! No RVLC does not help at all, of course. Data partitioning is a bit tricky because DP sizes are difficult to master at encoder side but it will help too when used with unequal error protection. Video Packets helps a lot because a VP is about a "slice" i.e. a fixed number of macro blocks -- Philippe Gentric Software Architect PHILIPS DIGITAL NETWORKS Broadcast & Internet Delivery Solutions Laboratoires d'Electronique Philips B.P. 15 - 22, Av. Descartes 94453 Limeil-Brevannes Cedex France Phone : 33 (0)1 45 10 68 12 Fax : 33 (0)1 45 10 69 60 philippe.gentric@philips.com = From rem-conf Tue Jan 30 09:20:17 2001 From rem-conf-request@es.net Tue Jan 30 09:20:17 2001 Received: from list by mail1.es.net with local (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14NeO8-0000Bd-00; Tue, 30 Jan 2001 09:16:16 -0800 Received: from (server.togabi.co.kr) [210.180.35.199] (root) by mail1.es.net with esmtp (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14NeO4-0000BO-00; Tue, 30 Jan 2001 09:16:15 -0800 Received: from rolex (fw.togabi.co.kr [211.219.166.83]) by server.togabi.co.kr (8.11.0/8.11.0) with SMTP id f0V2HJa12976; Wed, 31 Jan 2001 11:17:19 +0900 Reply-To: From: "Injong Rhee" To: "Young-Kwon LIM" , , Subject: RE: tolerable packet loss rate for streaming video/audio applications Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 12:17:19 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <015601c08a72$0ac0b480$9fecacd3@techway.co.kr> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 X-Mailing-List: X-Loop: rem-conf@es.net Precedence: list > -----Original Message----- > From: Young-Kwon LIM [mailto:young@techway.co.kr] > Sent: Monday, January 29, 2001 11:07 PM > To: rhee@togabi.com; rem-conf@es.net > Subject: Re: tolerable packet loss rate for streaming video/audio > applications > [snip,snip] > > Video Pakcet is developed definitely for packet losses. > Other stff you mentioned, RVLC and DP are developed for bit errors. > By intelligently packing number of Video Packets in RTP payload > and duplicated them properly you can protect packet erasures. > > You never duplicate. It wastes too much bandwidth. A typical way of FEC is using linear blocking coding where you can protect x packet losses out of n packets where n-x are data packets and x is the number of packets. > Combining FEC and VP will give you quite nice results in random > packet loss environment. > > > I don't see there is any technique working with long burst losses. > Even with long delays and pre-buffering you may not be able to recover. > Adding number of Intra frames will only help. > > Sincerely, > Young-Kwon LIM > The main problem with this type of FEC is: No way to predict loss patterns and future losses in a realistic environment; so it is difficult to estimate the "right" amount of FEC. so it either tends to waste bandwidth or cannot provide enough protection. Since it is susceptable to burst losses; to protect from the burst losses using the technique, you might have to increase redundancy or delays, none of which seems reasonable. It is also difficult to determine which frame to protect. Adding intra does not help either in terms of wasted bandwidth as the size of one intra frame tends to be as large as 10 times of one inter frame. My sense is that some combination of retransmission and fec would be nice.... From rem-conf Tue Jan 30 09:31:47 2001 From rem-conf-request@es.net Tue Jan 30 09:31:46 2001 Received: from list by mail1.es.net with local (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14NeaY-00012c-00; Tue, 30 Jan 2001 09:29:06 -0800 Received: from mail1.microsoft.com [131.107.3.125] by mail1.es.net with smtp (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14NeaX-0000zI-00; Tue, 30 Jan 2001 09:29:05 -0800 Received: from 157.54.9.101 by mail1.microsoft.com (InterScan E-Mail VirusWall NT); Tue, 30 Jan 2001 06:01:21 -0800 (Pacific Standard Time) content-class: urn:content-classes:message Subject: RE: tolerable packet loss rate for streaming video/audio applications Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 14:34:28 -0800 Message-ID: <33D69E5EAD06364FB98F3562E62ACE890D980D@red-msg-02.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: tolerable packet loss rate for streaming video/audio applications Thread-Index: AcCHyKtTlyw1wtRcTVGDd+Cjznc2ZAAG5T1Q X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.4418.12 From: "Gary Sullivan" To: , Cc: , X-Mailing-List: X-Loop: rem-conf@es.net Precedence: list It's not just the codec, it's also how it's used. One oft-forgotten technique for error resilience is simply having the encoder use intra updates more frequently or more intelligently. Even in the absence of a back channel, intelligent decisions about when to use intra coding can help (e.g., see work by Ken Rose et al and Stephan Wenger et al -- which use a sort of back-channel-free error tracking). In the extreme, using only intra or choosing only between intra and "skip" can provide very good error resilience, although that sacrifices significant coding efficiency. To some extent, there is an inherent tradeoff between coding efficiency and error resilience. NEWPRED can also help without a back channel in some ways. See work by Stephan Wenger on that one also. Perhaps the best question is this: If today's standard designs don't give you the kind of error resilience you seek, what alternative means do you propose? If you have new ideas, they would be interesting to hear. H.263(v2 & v3) and MPEG-4 (v1 & v3) are the first standard video codecs that made significant attempts at error resilience. They may not be complete successes, but it's not an easy problem. Much of the error resilience depends also on the encoding strategy, the channel, the encoder's state of knowledge about the channel, and the decoder's error concealment strategy. -Gary S. P.S. H.263's arbitrary slice ordering and enhanced data partitioning and MPEG-4's new Fine Granularity Scalability are three other interesting tools in the kit. But much of it comes down to encoding strategy and other non-syntactical issues. =20 +> -----Original Message----- +> From: philippe.gentric@philips.com=20 +> [mailto:philippe.gentric@philips.com] +> Sent: Friday, January 26, 2001 6:23 AM +> To: rhee@togabi.com +> Cc: rem-conf@es.net; sliang@DSG.Stanford.EDU +> Subject: Re: tolerable packet loss rate for streaming video/audio +> applications +>=20 +>=20 +> rhee@togabi.com wrote: +>=20 +> > Well, I disagree about MPEG-4 being so error-resilient=20 +> codec for IP. +> > +>=20 +> But it is, we have implemented the Video Packet stuff +> and made various demos at conferences +> and trade shows that clearly show that it +> makes an enormous difference ! +>=20 +> > +> > We are here talking about IP networks (including wireless=20 +> IP networks). +> > +> > In IP, a lot of MPEG-4 error resilient tools are not=20 +> useful. For instance, +> > data partitioning, RVLC, and resynchronization are not=20 +> going to be useful. +> > This is because packets with bit errors will be simply=20 +> discarded before +> > delivered to applications. In addition, those MPEG-4 tools=20 +> that do work in +> > IP such as NEWPRED and Error Tracking cannot be used for=20 +> stored video or +> > multicast --this is because they need real-time encoders. +>=20 +> agreed, you dont get bit errors, only packet losses +> so forget RVLC but: +>=20 +> - why do you exclude Data Partitioning (DP) ? it requires a=20 +> smart encoder +> and the ability to interleave in the RTP payload format but it +> is very useful ! +>=20 +> - we have a real time encoder and for broadcasting (multicasting) +> we could use RTCP receiver reports to feedback on the encoder, +> like increasing the redundancy on critical DP when network condition +> degrades. +>=20 +> -- +> Philippe Gentric +> Software Architect +> PHILIPS DIGITAL NETWORKS +> Broadcast & Internet Delivery Solutions +> Laboratoires d'Electronique Philips +> B.P. 15 - 22, Av. Descartes +> 94453 Limeil-Brevannes Cedex France +> Phone : 33 (0)1 45 10 68 12 +> Fax : 33 (0)1 45 10 69 60 +> philippe.gentric@philips.com +>=20 +>=20 +>=20 From rem-conf Tue Jan 30 09:40:39 2001 From rem-conf-request@es.net Tue Jan 30 09:40:39 2001 Received: from list by mail1.es.net with local (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14Nejg-0001xB-00; Tue, 30 Jan 2001 09:38:32 -0800 Received: from add1.multicasttech.com (multicasttech.com) [63.105.122.5] (root) by mail1.es.net with esmtp (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14Nejf-0001wu-00; Tue, 30 Jan 2001 09:38:31 -0800 Received: from [63.105.122.193] (HELO 21rst-century.com) by multicasttech.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 3.3.2) with ESMTP id 726398; Tue, 30 Jan 2001 12:37:38 -0500 Message-ID: <3A76FB4D.781B149F@21rst-century.com> Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 12:35:10 -0500 From: Marshall Eubanks Reply-To: tme@21rst-century.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7C-CCK-MCD {C-UDP; EBM-APPLE} (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rhee@togabi.com CC: Young-Kwon LIM , rem-conf@es.net Subject: Re: tolerable packet loss rate for streaming video/audio applications References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailing-List: X-Loop: rem-conf@es.net Precedence: list Injong Rhee wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Young-Kwon LIM [mailto:young@techway.co.kr] > > Sent: Monday, January 29, 2001 11:07 PM > > To: rhee@togabi.com; rem-conf@es.net > > Subject: Re: tolerable packet loss rate for streaming video/audio > > applications > > > [snip,snip] > > > > Video Pakcet is developed definitely for packet losses. > > Other stff you mentioned, RVLC and DP are developed for bit errors. > > By intelligently packing number of Video Packets in RTP payload > > and duplicated them properly you can protect packet erasures. > > > > > > You never duplicate. It wastes too much bandwidth. A typical way of FEC is > using linear blocking coding where you can protect x packet losses out of n > packets where n-x are data packets and x is the number of packets. > > > Combining FEC and VP will give you quite nice results in random > > packet loss environment. > > > > > > I don't see there is any technique working with long burst losses. > > Even with long delays and pre-buffering you may not be able to recover. > > Adding number of Intra frames will only help. > > > > Sincerely, > > Young-Kwon LIM > > > > The main problem with this type of FEC is: > > No way to predict loss patterns and future losses in a realistic > environment; so it is difficult to estimate the "right" amount of FEC. so it > either tends to waste bandwidth or cannot provide enough protection. Since > it is susceptable to burst losses; to protect from the burst losses using > the technique, you might have to increase redundancy or delays, none of > which seems reasonable. It is also difficult to determine which frame to > protect. > Adding intra does not help either in terms of wasted bandwidth as the size > of one intra frame tends to be as large as 10 times of one inter frame. > > My sense is that some combination of retransmission and fec would be > nice.... Depends on the application. Retransmission doesn't tend to scale. There are a number of proposals for doing NACK and Tree-Based ACK retransmissions - see the rmt working group charter. I do, however, disagree with your statement that "No way to predict loss patterns and future losses in a realistic environment; so it is difficult to estimate the "right" amount of FEC. so it either tends to waste bandwidth or cannot provide enough protection." This is an engineering problem, much like engineering a bridge to withstand wind loading (or a communications link to withstand rain fading). Set specs for the application and for up time, look at actual loss statistics, and design the FEC to provide for that case. Use in the real world, and iterate. One trouble with multicasting is that, over real links in the real commodity Internet, packet loss tends to be bimodal, either < 1% or > 30%. Much of this has to do with buffering and provisioning at border routers, I suspect, as certain links tend to always have a lot of loss. Now, the first case lends itself well to FEC. I would contend that the second case will be a lost cause pretty much regardless of what you do - even TCP would have trouble with this. -- Regards Marshall Eubanks T.M. Eubanks Multicast Technologies, Inc 10301 Democracy Lane, Suite 410 Fairfax, Virginia 22030 Phone : 703-293-9624 Fax : 703-293-9609 e-mail : tme@on-the-i.com tme@multicasttech.com http://www.on-the-i.com http://www.buzzwaves.com From rem-conf Tue Jan 30 10:34:36 2001 From rem-conf-request@es.net Tue Jan 30 10:34:36 2001 Received: from list by mail1.es.net with local (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14NfXA-0004lB-00; Tue, 30 Jan 2001 10:29:40 -0800 Received: from relay.eecs.berkeley.edu [169.229.34.228] by mail1.es.net with esmtp (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14NfX8-0004kY-00; Tue, 30 Jan 2001 10:29:38 -0800 Received: from bmrc.berkeley.edu (ix.CS.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.36.141]) by relay.EECS.Berkeley.EDU (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA02053; Tue, 30 Jan 2001 10:29:37 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3A77072D.F1342D7@bmrc.berkeley.edu> Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 10:25:50 -0800 From: Florissa Colina X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: 1/31 Distribution Architectures for Dynamic Internet Traffic -- Peter Danzig, Akamai Technology, Inc. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bcc: To: rem-conf@es.net X-Mailing-List: X-Loop: rem-conf@es.net Precedence: list Berkeley Multimedia, Graphics and Interfaces Seminar Distribution Architectures for Dynamic Internet Traffic Wednesday, January 31, 2001 1:10-2:30 p.m. PDT Fujitsu Seminar Room (405 Soda Hall) Peter Danzig Akamai Technology, Inc. Last year, commercial content delivery networks emerged to carry several percent of Internet traffic. I will describe some of these architectures for deliverying web and streaming content, and pose and answer questions such as "how much web and streaming traffic does the Internet carry. I will also outline a couple of research questions that you may find interesting. --------------- The seminar is broadcast live on the Internet Mbone and as a Real Networks G2 broadcast. You can connect to the live RealNetworks broadcast at: http://bmrc.berkeley.edu/bibs/cs298-5 You can also directly put in this url into the Real Player: rtsp://media2.bmrc.berkeley.edu/encoder/cs298-5.rm To do so you will need to have the "Real Player G2" installed, which is available from: http://www.real.com/products/player/downloadrealplayer.html To tune into the Internet MBone broadcast, look for the announcement in your MBone session directory program ('sdr'). If you are not receiving the announcement you may be able to receive the session by manually configuring the client programs ('vic', and 'vat') with the session addresses: medium bit rate video: 233.0.25.129/22334 audio: 233.0.25.2/22446 You can get further information about this seminar, and access to replays of previous seminars at the MIG Seminar web page: http://media2.bmrc.berkeley.edu/bibs/archive.cfm Sponsored by the Berkeley Multimedia Research Center From rem-conf Tue Jan 30 21:58:00 2001 From rem-conf-request@es.net Tue Jan 30 21:58:00 2001 Received: from list by mail1.es.net with local (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14NqC1-0004d3-00; Tue, 30 Jan 2001 21:52:33 -0800 Received: from neptun.domnet.com.pl [212.160.152.49] by mail1.es.net with esmtp (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14NqBx-0004cF-00; Tue, 30 Jan 2001 21:52:29 -0800 Received: from netscape.com (rsvp-207-173-123-12.ac17.rcrd.eli.net [207.173.123.12]) by neptun.domnet.com.pl (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA18944; Wed, 31 Jan 2001 06:59:24 +0100 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) From: choonti@ignmail.com Subject: Lowest Interest Loans From Competing Lenders Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 21:51:54 -0800 Message-Id: To: flatrate@mail.deseretmail.com X-Mailing-List: X-Loop: rem-conf@es.net Precedence: list catalyst_mortgage

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From rem-conf Wed Jan 31 02:41:44 2001 From rem-conf-request@es.net Wed Jan 31 02:41:43 2001 Received: from list by mail1.es.net with local (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14Nucq-0001P3-00; Wed, 31 Jan 2001 02:36:32 -0800 Received: from prue.eim.surrey.ac.uk [131.227.76.5] (exim) by mail1.es.net with esmtp (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14Nuco-0001Ot-00; Wed, 31 Jan 2001 02:36:30 -0800 Received: from regan.ee.surrey.ac.uk ([131.227.89.11]) by prue.eim.surrey.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #1) id 14NucP-0007Ek-00; Wed, 31 Jan 2001 10:36:05 +0000 Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 10:35:49 +0000 (GMT) From: "Dr A. H. Sadka" X-Sender: ees3as@regan.ee.surrey.ac.uk To: Gary Sullivan cc: philippe.gentric@philips.com, rhee@togabi.com, rem-conf@es.net, sliang@DSG.Stanford.EDU Subject: RE: tolerable packet loss rate for streaming video/audio applications In-Reply-To: <33D69E5EAD06364FB98F3562E62ACE890D980D@red-msg-02.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Mailing-List: X-Loop: rem-conf@es.net Precedence: list Hello, Further to G. Sullivan's message, I'd like to interject with the following addendum: I believe the INTRA refresh that was meant is the AIR technique which works on a MB basis. We found that an improvement to this technique could be achieved by adapting the number of refreshed MBs to status feedback reports from the backward channel. I don't very much support error resilience techniques which depend on backward channel signalling since the performance would then depend on the error-free receipt of feedback reports which is an unreliable fact in an already error-prone environment or a congested network. Let alone the delay associated with the feedback reports which could render the enclosed data outdated. In addition to the error resilience techniques adopted in version 3 of ISO MPEG-4 and ITU-T H.263+ and the error concealment capabililities of decoders, I strongly believe that congestion avoidance mechanisms and packetisation schemes do enhance the robustness of video codecs. Flow control techniques which could drop least significant video data (such as TCOEFF) in the case of reported congestion to allow motion data and DC coefficients (and perhaps shape information in object-based coders) contribute tremendously to the error resilience capabilities of the encoder. Moreover, we have recently completed a study of 2 packetisation schemes which looked at packing MPEG-4 packets in RTP packets over UDP/IP for real-time video transmissions over GRPS channels. We found that the effective error rate could be vastly enhanced by packing a number of video packets, as opposed to one, into a single RTP packet. Apart from the bit overhead resulting from packet headers, the effective error rate was improved by order of magnitude for various error patterns generated by the modelled GPRS physical layer and for various kinds of sequences at BER's as low as 10^-3. The adaptive packet length, the order of transmission of video data and the adaptive intra refresh MBs all contribute to making a video codec more resilient to channel errors and information loss. On top of that come scaleability techniques (I believe FGS is rather a successful achievment in that respect) for highly varying network conditions such as mobile links and the traditional quantisation stepsize variability when appropriate. I think there has been a huge amount of research in this particular area but there is still room for improvement or at least integration of existing algorithms for optimising the error resilience capability of video coding algorithms. Regards. _________________________________________ Dr Abdul H. Sadka (Lecturer) | Multimedia Communications Research Group | Centre for Communication Systems Research| Uni. of Surrey, GU2 7XH, Surrey, England | Tel: +44 (01483) 259490 | Fax: +44 (01483) 876011 | WWW: www.ee.surrey.ac.uk/Personal/A.Sadka| _________________________________________| On Fri, 26 Jan 2001, Gary Sullivan wrote: > > It's not just the codec, it's also how it's used. > > One oft-forgotten technique for error resilience > is simply having the encoder use intra updates > more frequently or more intelligently. Even in the > absence of a back channel, intelligent decisions about > when to use intra coding can help (e.g., see work by > Ken Rose et al and Stephan Wenger et al -- which use > a sort of back-channel-free error tracking). In the > extreme, using only intra or choosing only between > intra and "skip" can provide very good error > resilience, although that sacrifices significant > coding efficiency. To some extent, there is an > inherent tradeoff between coding efficiency and > error resilience. > > NEWPRED can also help without a back channel in > some ways. See work by Stephan Wenger on that one > also. > > Perhaps the best question is this: If today's standard > designs don't give you the kind of error resilience > you seek, what alternative means do you propose? > If you have new ideas, they would be interesting to hear. > > H.263(v2 & v3) and MPEG-4 (v1 & v3) are the first standard > video codecs that made significant attempts at error resilience. > They may not be complete successes, but it's not > an easy problem. Much of the error resilience > depends also on the encoding strategy, the channel, > the encoder's state of knowledge about the channel, > and the decoder's error concealment strategy. > > -Gary S. > > > P.S. H.263's arbitrary slice ordering and enhanced > data partitioning and MPEG-4's new Fine Granularity > Scalability are three other interesting tools in the kit. > But much of it comes down to encoding strategy and > other non-syntactical issues. > > +> -----Original Message----- > +> From: philippe.gentric@philips.com > +> [mailto:philippe.gentric@philips.com] > +> Sent: Friday, January 26, 2001 6:23 AM > +> To: rhee@togabi.com > +> Cc: rem-conf@es.net; sliang@DSG.Stanford.EDU > +> Subject: Re: tolerable packet loss rate for streaming video/audio > +> applications > +> > +> > +> rhee@togabi.com wrote: > +> > +> > Well, I disagree about MPEG-4 being so error-resilient > +> codec for IP. > +> > > +> > +> But it is, we have implemented the Video Packet stuff > +> and made various demos at conferences > +> and trade shows that clearly show that it > +> makes an enormous difference ! > +> > +> > > +> > We are here talking about IP networks (including wireless > +> IP networks). > +> > > +> > In IP, a lot of MPEG-4 error resilient tools are not > +> useful. For instance, > +> > data partitioning, RVLC, and resynchronization are not > +> going to be useful. > +> > This is because packets with bit errors will be simply > +> discarded before > +> > delivered to applications. In addition, those MPEG-4 tools > +> that do work in > +> > IP such as NEWPRED and Error Tracking cannot be used for > +> stored video or > +> > multicast --this is because they need real-time encoders. > +> > +> agreed, you dont get bit errors, only packet losses > +> so forget RVLC but: > +> > +> - why do you exclude Data Partitioning (DP) ? it requires a > +> smart encoder > +> and the ability to interleave in the RTP payload format but it > +> is very useful ! > +> > +> - we have a real time encoder and for broadcasting (multicasting) > +> we could use RTCP receiver reports to feedback on the encoder, > +> like increasing the redundancy on critical DP when network condition > +> degrades. > +> > +> -- > +> Philippe Gentric > +> Software Architect > +> PHILIPS DIGITAL NETWORKS > +> Broadcast & Internet Delivery Solutions > +> Laboratoires d'Electronique Philips > +> B.P. 15 - 22, Av. Descartes > +> 94453 Limeil-Brevannes Cedex France > +> Phone : 33 (0)1 45 10 68 12 > +> Fax : 33 (0)1 45 10 69 60 > +> philippe.gentric@philips.com > +> > +> > +> > > From rem-conf Wed Jan 31 15:41:31 2001 From rem-conf-request@es.net Wed Jan 31 15:41:30 2001 Received: from list by mail1.es.net with local (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14O6h1-0001IE-00; Wed, 31 Jan 2001 15:29:39 -0800 Received: from (ns.shinnichi.co.jp) [210.162.249.2] by mail1.es.net with esmtp (Exim 1.81 #2) id 14O6gz-0001I4-00; Wed, 31 Jan 2001 15:29:37 -0800 Received: from mx07.wickedspeed.net (1cust45.tnt1.broken-arrow.ok.da.uu.net [63.27.16.45]) by ns.shinnichi.co.jp (2.6 Build 9 (Berkeley 8.8.6)/8.8.4) with SMTP id IAA00760; Thu, 01 Feb 2001 08:24:45 +0900 CC: jdjj@delphi.com, mwilson891@delphi.com, rem-conf@delphi.com, mwilson891@delphi.com, mwilson892@delphi.com, jdjj@delphi.com Message-Id: <5qeb1u1vaobrv4i28.qdt58c5jmjilout@mx07.wickedspeed.net> Subject: Do you have too much debt. 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