Received: from cnri by ietf.org id aa13107; 8 Aug 97 15:27 EDT Received: from mailbag.jf.intel.com (mailbag.jf.intel.com [134.134.248.4]) by cnri.reston.va.us (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTPid PAA22899; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 15:22:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailbag.jf.intel.com (mailbag.jf.intel.com [134.134.248.4]) by mailbag.jf.intel.com (8.8.6/8.8.4) with ESMTP id MAA01028; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 12:18:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from MAILBAG.INTEL.COM by MAILBAG.INTEL.COM (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 66091 for IETF-RUN@MAILBAG.INTEL.COM; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 12:18:08 -0700 Received: from enteka.com (chaos.metricom.com [204.179.107.70]) by mailbag.jf.intel.com (8.8.6/8.8.4) with ESMTP id MAA00515 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 12:08:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from philipp@localhost) by enteka.com (8.8.6/8.7.3) id MAA04274 for ietf-run@mailbag.intel.com; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 12:05:38 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <199708081905.MAA04274@enteka.com> Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 12:05:38 -0700 Reply-To: IETF-RUN Sender: IETF-RUN From: "Philip A. Prindeville" Subject: Question about IEMMC To: IETF-RUN@mailbag.intel.com Say, I've gotten spam from IEMMC (hasn't everyone) and went ahead and tried to go through the list removal process they mention in their email. It has yet to work. It either hangs or tells me that something in the submission wasn't quite right (even though everything has been cut and pasted from their emailed automated instructions). Is this a scam? Or are they really on the up-and-up? -Philip   Received: from cnri by ietf.org id aa13623; 8 Aug 97 16:05 EDT Received: from mailbag.jf.intel.com (mailbag.jf.intel.com [134.134.248.4]) by cnri.reston.va.us (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTPid QAA23044; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 16:00:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailbag.jf.intel.com (mailbag.jf.intel.com [134.134.248.4]) by mailbag.jf.intel.com (8.8.6/8.8.4) with ESMTP id MAA03168; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 12:58:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from MAILBAG.INTEL.COM by MAILBAG.INTEL.COM (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 66264 for IETF-RUN@MAILBAG.INTEL.COM; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 12:58:01 -0700 Received: from thunderstone.com (thunder.thunderstone.com [198.49.220.81]) by mailbag.jf.intel.com (8.8.6/8.8.4) with SMTP id MAA03154 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 12:57:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from john by thunderstone.com with local (Exim 1.61 #4) id 0wwv87-00028v-00; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 15:55:23 -0400 X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL22] Content-Type: text Message-ID: Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 15:55:23 -0400 Reply-To: IETF-RUN Sender: IETF-RUN From: John Turnbull Subject: Re: Question about IEMMC To: IETF-RUN@mailbag.intel.com In-Reply-To: <199708081905.MAA04274@enteka.com> from "Philip A. Prindeville" at Aug 8, 97 12:05:38 pm Philip A. Prindeville said: > > Say, I've gotten spam from IEMMC (hasn't everyone) and went ahead and > tried to go through the list removal process they mention in their > email. It has yet to work. > > It either hangs or tells me that something in the submission wasn't > quite right (even though everything has been cut and pasted from their > emailed automated instructions). > > Is this a scam? Or are they really on the up-and-up? > > -Philip I went through the same process, but successfully. Since then I have not received anymore spam with iemmc headers in there, but I don't know how many spammers just use it as a flag to remove the headers. I definately did receive the same spam without iemmc headers once after signing up, but haven't kept track since. I do still get a large volume of spam though various filter rules catch about 90% of them. John Turnbull   Received: from cnri by ietf.org id aa15677; 8 Aug 97 18:34 EDT Received: from mailbag.jf.intel.com (mailbag.jf.intel.com [134.134.248.4]) by cnri.reston.va.us (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTPid SAA23446; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 18:29:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailbag.jf.intel.com (mailbag.jf.intel.com [134.134.248.4]) by mailbag.jf.intel.com (8.8.6/8.8.4) with ESMTP id PAA12567; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 15:27:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from MAILBAG.INTEL.COM by MAILBAG.INTEL.COM (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 67241 for IETF-RUN@MAILBAG.INTEL.COM; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 15:27:07 -0700 Received: from nuinfo.nwu.edu (nuinfo.nwu.edu [129.105.212.72]) by mailbag.jf.intel.com (8.8.6/8.8.4) with ESMTP id PAA12545 for ; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 15:27:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [129.105.110.129] by nuinfo.nwu.edu with ESMTP (1.39.111.2/16.2) id AA135059083; Fri, 8 Aug 1997 17:24:43 -0500 X-Sender: lunde@nuinfo.acns.nwu.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 17:24:37 -0500 Reply-To: IETF-RUN Sender: IETF-RUN From: Albert Lunde Subject: Re: Question about IEMMC To: IETF-RUN@mailbag.intel.com In-Reply-To: <199708081905.MAA04274@enteka.com> >Say, I've gotten spam from IEMMC (hasn't everyone) and went ahead and >tried to go through the list removal process they mention in their >email. It has yet to work. > >It either hangs or tells me that something in the submission wasn't >quite right (even though everything has been cut and pasted from their >emailed automated instructions). > >Is this a scam? Or are they really on the up-and-up? > >-Philip I've got two ISPs, (.com and .edu) one which is already blocking SMTP connects from some agis-assigned net blocks, and multiple e-mail addresses within the .edu domain. Everything forwards to one place most of the time. I was getting tired of the sheer volume of spam, (and the fact my complaints were going nowhere) so I tried going thru their procedure for my two primary (.com and .edu) e-mail addresses. The "remove" procedure is a lot like subscribing to a list server in paranoid mode: you have to send a request, get an e-mail telling you to confirm the request, then respond in turn. * The defaults are all wrong. First, their default assumption should be that NO ONE should or wants to receive unsolicited mass-mailings (since they or their organization will pay part of the bills.) Second, they act like being on their spam lists was a privilege that people want to preserve. I don't think there is a real problem with "REMOVE" forgery. Third, they assume that sites will/should accept direct SMTP from spam domains. * In my case the process "worked" for my ".edu" domain but "failed" for my ".com" domain. I think I'm getting less spam with IEMMC in the headers, but still getting spams that are somehow agis-related, like two-hop relay spam on behalf of an agis-hosted web site. * One assertion I've seen made, but not confirmed, is that the "remove" lists are being used to confirm that sites still accept SMTP, so that one "remove" means other addresses at the same site get spammed more. * In any case, the whole idea of global "remove" lists is a lot like "ethical rape"; (1) it's based on the wrong default assumptions, (2) it assumes that it is _possible_ to enumerate all valid Internet e-mail addresses with full knowledge about their consent or lack thereof to be spammed. Since both of the premises are false, I think "remove" lists are window-dressing for unethical behavior. --- Albert Lunde Albert-Lunde@nwu.edu   Received: from cnri by ietf.org id aa02421; 16 Aug 97 5:28 EDT Received: from hebe.or.intel.com (root@hebe.or.intel.com [134.134.248.4]) by cnri.reston.va.us (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTPid FAA10425; Sat, 16 Aug 1997 05:28:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailbag.jf.intel.com by hebe.or.intel.com (8.8.5/10.0i); Sat, 16 Aug 1997 05:24:22 GMT Received: from MAILBAG.INTEL.COM by MAILBAG.INTEL.COM (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 68052 for IETF-RUN@MAILBAG.INTEL.COM; Sat, 16 Aug 1997 02:19:41 -0700 Received: from mail.comet.net (mail.comet.net [198.77.183.3]) by mailbag.jf.intel.com (8.8.6/8.8.4) with ESMTP id CAA02301 for ; Sat, 16 Aug 1997 02:09:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from atlas.comet.net ([198.77.183.2]) by mail.comet.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1 release PO203a ID# 0-37158U2500L250S0) with SMTP id AAA63 for ; Sat, 16 Aug 1997 05:07:17 -0400 X-PGP-PUBLIC-KEY: mail to jamie@comet.net w/Subject:GET KEY X-PGP-FINGERPRINT: 96 E9 04 91 4D 87 72 EE DB 1A E2 FA F3 97 36 49 X-Wife: Ol' What's her name MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 05:07:17 -0400 Reply-To: IETF-RUN Sender: IETF-RUN From: jamie Subject: New to list To: IETF-RUN@mailbag.intel.com Hi all. I'm new to this list. I work for a small ISP in Central Va., Charlottesville to be precise. Being new to this list, is there anything the group is working on that I may help with? My time is limited, as is yours, I'm sure. Willing to help in any way, though. I've looked at the web page, read the draft, etc. best, jamie jamie@comet.net *************************************************************************** For PGP public key, mail me with Subject:GET KEY For random Ambrose Bierce quote, Mail me with Subject: ambrose Support the anti-Spam amendment - Join at http://www.cauce.org/ "We have no intention of shipping another bloated OS and shoving it down the throats of our users." -Paul Maritz, Microsoft group vice president   Received: from cnri by ietf.org id aa10930; 31 Aug 97 18:01 EDT Received: from mailbag.jf.intel.com (mailbag.jf.intel.com [134.134.248.7]) by cnri.reston.va.us (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTPid SAA20922; Sun, 31 Aug 1997 18:01:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailbag.jf.intel.com (mailbag.jf.intel.com [134.134.248.7]) by mailbag.jf.intel.com (8.8.6/8.8.4) with ESMTP id OAA23271; Sun, 31 Aug 1997 14:55:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from MAILBAG.INTEL.COM by MAILBAG.INTEL.COM (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 75761 for IETF-RUN@MAILBAG.INTEL.COM; Sun, 31 Aug 1997 14:55:44 -0700 Received: from enteka.com (chaos.metricom.com [204.179.107.70]) by mailbag.jf.intel.com (8.8.6/8.8.4) with ESMTP id OAA23261 for ; Sun, 31 Aug 1997 14:55:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from philipp@localhost) by enteka.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA27459 for ietf-run@mailbag.intel.com; Sun, 31 Aug 1997 14:53:21 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <199708312153.OAA27459@enteka.com> Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 14:53:21 -0700 Reply-To: IETF-RUN Sender: IETF-RUN From: "Philip A. Prindeville" Subject: Rewarding good behaviour To: IETF-RUN@mailbag.intel.com Would it be possible to have a web page that lists ISPs (and IXCs) that do some or all of the "right things", such as revoking accounts for known spammers, refusing to relay 3rd party email, etc.? Maybe we could make it a stigma to not have a "5 out of 5" rating on this page (or something like the "Magellan top 5%" rating that web pages get, except that ISPs would put it on their home page). A little social engineering... Say, this list has been quiet lately. What's been going on for those of us who didn't go to Munchen (Munich)? -Philip   Received: from cnri by ietf.org id aa11099; 31 Aug 97 18:15 EDT Received: from mailbag.jf.intel.com (mailbag.jf.intel.com [134.134.248.7]) by cnri.reston.va.us (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTPid SAA20938; Sun, 31 Aug 1997 18:15:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailbag.jf.intel.com (mailbag.jf.intel.com [134.134.248.7]) by mailbag.jf.intel.com (8.8.6/8.8.4) with ESMTP id PAA23558; Sun, 31 Aug 1997 15:12:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from MAILBAG.INTEL.COM by MAILBAG.INTEL.COM (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 75782 for IETF-RUN@MAILBAG.INTEL.COM; Sun, 31 Aug 1997 15:12:09 -0700 Received: from gatekeeper.nytimes.com (gatekeeper.nytimes.com [199.181.175.201]) by mailbag.jf.intel.com (8.8.6/8.8.4) with SMTP id PAA23444 for ; Sun, 31 Aug 1997 15:02:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailgate.nytimes.com by gatekeeper.nytimes.com; (5.65v3.2/1.1.8.2/30Mar95-0352PM) id AA05518; Sun, 31 Aug 1997 17:58:58 -0400 Received: by mailgate.nytimes.com; (5.65/1.1.8.2/25Jul94-1134AM) id AA10501; Sun, 31 Aug 1997 17:58:51 -0400 Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <9708312158.AA10501@mailgate.nytimes.com> Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 17:58:51 -0400 Reply-To: IETF-RUN Sender: IETF-RUN From: Gordy Thompson Subject: On vacation To: IETF-RUN@mailbag.intel.com I'm on vacation until Wednesday, Sept. 3. There's a strong possibility that I'll see your recent letter before then, and perhaps even answer it. But if you need more immediate, reliable attention to a problem or service request, please call System Support (212-556-4617).